Antiquities 1.30

Other Greek writings of the New Testament era, including papyri and inscriptions
Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Post Reply
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Antiquities 1.30

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

I am really struggling with the following text from Josephus, particularly with the words in bold
§130 Οἱ δὲ Χάμου παῖδες τὴν ἀπὸ Συρίας καὶ Ἀμάνου καὶ Λιβάνου τῶν ὀρῶν γῆν κατέσχον, ὅσα πρὸς θάλασσαν αὐτῆς ἐτέτραπτο καταλαβόντες καὶ τὰ μέχρι τοῦ ὠκεανοῦ ἐξιδιωσάμενοι· αἱ μέντοι προσηγορίαι τῶν μὲν καὶ παντελῶς ἐξίτηλοι γεγόνασιν, ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας δύσγνωστοι τυγχάνουσιν, ὀλίγοι δὲ οἱ φυλάξαντες ἀκεραίους τὰς προσηγορίας ὑπάρχουσι.

Josephus, F., & Niese, B. (1888–). Flavii Iosephi opera recognovit Benedictvs Niese ... Berolini: apvd Weidmannos.
(130) The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus, seizing upon all that was on its seacoasts and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire;

Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The works of Josephus: complete and unabridged (p. 36). Peabody: Hendrickson.
The children of Chamas secured the land from Syria and the mountains of Amanos353 and Libanos, occupying as much of the area as was situated toward the sea and appropriating to themselves the regions up to the ocean.355 However, the names of some countries have completely disappeared, while others have been altered and changed so that they happen to be difficult to recognize, and there are few that have preserved their names intact.

Josephus, F., Mason, S., & Feldman, L. H. (2000). Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Judean Antiquities Books 1-4 (Vol. 3, p. 47). Boston; Leiden: Brill.
I am struggling with pretty much all the possible lexical meanings of ετετραπτο (τρεφω) here. Is its antecedent γην? What is its meaning - I am struggling to pick it out from the translations above

I am going to stop the question at this first point so I don't get bogged down in the other elements I am struggling with and come back to them if people can help me with this bit
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: December 1st, 2020, 8:04 am I am really struggling with the following text from Josephus, particularly with the words in bold
§130 Οἱ δὲ Χάμου παῖδες τὴν ἀπὸ Συρίας καὶ Ἀμάνου καὶ Λιβάνου τῶν ὀρῶν γῆν κατέσχον, ὅσα πρὸς θάλασσαν αὐτῆς ἐτέτραπτο καταλαβόντες καὶ τὰ μέχρι τοῦ ὠκεανοῦ ἐξιδιωσάμενοι· αἱ μέντοι προσηγορίαι τῶν μὲν καὶ παντελῶς ἐξίτηλοι γεγόνασιν, ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας δύσγνωστοι τυγχάνουσιν, ὀλίγοι δὲ οἱ φυλάξαντες ἀκεραίους τὰς προσηγορίας ὑπάρχουσι.

[...]

I am struggling with pretty much all the possible lexical meanings of ετετραπτο (τρεφω) here. Is its antecedent γην? What is its meaning - I am struggling to pick it out from the translations above

I am going to stop the question at this first point so I don't get bogged down in the other elements I am struggling with and come back to them if people can help me with this bit
Matthew, I know that Logos brings up τρέφω, but I think rather it's from τρέπω. If you work through the various alternate forms listed in the LSJ you eventually find the perfect m/p τέτραπτο, and what you actually have here is the pluperfect. You'll also eventually find this usage:
4. Pass. and Med., of places, to be turned or look in a certain direction, πρὸς ζόφον Od.12.81; πρὸς ἄρκτον, πρὸς νότον, etc., Hdt.1.148, Th.2.15, etc.; also πρὸς τοῦ Τμώλου Hdt.1.84; ἄντʼ ἠελίου τετρ. straight towards, Hes.Op.727.
Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1813). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

The subject of the verb is actually the neuter plural ὅσα, which also does double duty for the object of καταλαβόντες in a rather compact expression (it would be something like ὀρῆ ὅσα if fully written out, but Greek often prefers to leave the antecedent unexpressed).

This is a good example of why translations are often not helpful for determining what the Greek is doing. They are decent translations, but because they render in good English what the Greek is saying, they are less than helpful for the student (because good English isn't necessarily good Greek). There is no "NASB" for Josephus! :) You have to work on understanding the Greek as Greek before you can do anything else (and I know that's what you are trying to do).
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Thanks Barry - knowing the actual lexical form would have been a huge help, thanks for digging that up for me.
So would the sense be "seizing as much as was facing its sea and obtaining / appropriating (that - poor translation but I get the sense) as far as the ocean"?
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: December 1st, 2020, 10:41 am Thanks Barry - knowing the actual lexical form would have been a huge help, thanks for digging that up for me.
So would the sense be "seizing as much as was facing its sea and obtaining / appropriating (that - poor translation but I get the sense) as far as the ocean"?
I read τἀ μέχρι as separate from ὅσα, "the areas as far as the ocean..."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:00 am I read τἀ μέχρι as separate from ὅσα, "the areas as far as the ocean..."
So an ellipsis of χωρια?

Regarding αἱ μέντοι προσηγορίαι τῶν μὲν καὶ παντελῶς ἐξίτηλοι γεγόνασιν, ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας δύσγνωστοι τυγχάνουσιν
I think that I should take ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας as referring back to προσηγορίαι. "...with the names of some changing and being altered to other (names), have acquired hard to recognise (names)" That rendering though would take the τυγχανω as being almost a perfect even though present in form which seems a bit strained.
Jean Putmans
Posts: 152
Joined: August 3rd, 2018, 1:01 am
Location: Heerlen; Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Jean Putmans »

as to ετετραπτο:

To identify Verbforms, you might find useful:

Traut, Georg: Lexikon über die Formen der griechischen Verba, 1867

Download:
https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de// ... 00001.html

(Digitizing Centre of the München University; they have great scans of many books; not as much books as Archive.org, but mostly in splendid quality).


Regards

Jean
Jean Putmans
Netherlands
gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Interesting book, thanks. I tend to check the Logos lexical information which normally works fine (obviously not this time though!)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:18 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:00 am I read τἀ μέχρι as separate from ὅσα, "the areas as far as the ocean..."
So an ellipsis of χωρια?

Regarding αἱ μέντοι προσηγορίαι τῶν μὲν καὶ παντελῶς ἐξίτηλοι γεγόνασιν, ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας δύσγνωστοι τυγχάνουσιν
I think that I should take ἐνίων δὲ μεταβαλοῦσαι καὶ μεταρρυθμισθεῖσαι πρὸς ἑτέρας as referring back to προσηγορίαι. "...with the names of some changing and being altered to other (names), have acquired hard to recognise (names)" That rendering though would take the τυγχανω as being almost a perfect even though present in form which seems a bit strained.
1) Yes, if you have to supply something, χωρία would work. A Greek speaker would simply realize what the neuter plural means here and probably not think of any specific word.

2) First part right. Second part remember that τυγχάνω + participle means something like "happen to _____, with the participle filling in the blank. The perfective idea arises from the aorist participles, not τυγχάνω, which is practically a modal.

On the parsing, not a bad idea to have something besides Logos, which occasionally gets it wrong on Greek texts outside the NT, because it uses a kind of fuzzy logic best guess algorithm to derive it. For example, it parses μεταβαλοῦσαι as future when it happens to be (!) aorist. Okay, actually the forms are identical, but context means it has to be aorist (in addition to τρέφω/τρέπω discussed above). Nothing beats thorough knowledge of the forms in your head!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 1st, 2020, 7:14 pm Nothing beats thorough knowledge of the forms in your head!
Agreed on that. My vocab cards tend to only flag forms that might be confusing alongside the lexical form so I try to spot these. I am currently working through Ezekiel in the evenings and am finding it easy going due to vocab knowledge. Generally I won't look at the parsing info in Logos or the English translations unless I get completely lost and just can't work out what is going on, and even when I do I take a stab at what the form is that I am looking at and what the lexical form will be before pulling it up in the lexicon.
No idea how you folks who only had paper lexicons managed. The amount of time you must have had them open and flipping through is not pleasant to imagine. We are spoiled with modern tools!
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Antiquities 1.30

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 7:48 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 1st, 2020, 7:14 pm Nothing beats thorough knowledge of the forms in your head!
Agreed on that. My vocab cards tend to only flag forms that might be confusing alongside the lexical form so I try to spot these. I am currently working through Ezekiel in the evenings and am finding it easy going due to vocab knowledge. Generally I won't look at the parsing info in Logos or the English translations unless I get completely lost and just can't work out what is going on, and even when I do I take a stab at what the form is that I am looking at and what the lexical form will be before pulling it up in the lexicon.
No idea how you folks who only had paper lexicons managed. The amount of time you must have had them open and flipping through is not pleasant to imagine. We are spoiled with modern tools!
I was one of those who used only paper lexicons until sometime in the late 90's. It wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds, but electronic resources are certainly easier than carrying the LSJ everywhere. The principle is the same either way, though: do your best first to work through it without reference to a resource, and then have a look.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Post Reply

Return to “Koine Greek Texts”