I John 5:18 ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: I John 5:18 ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν

Post by David Lim »

Dear Iver,

Thanks for your suggestions. :) However I still have questions..
Iver Larsen wrote:Yes, there are other considerations apart from αὐτὸν. We have three clauses: (1) the one-being-in-the-state-of-having-been-born of God does not (habitually) sin, (2) the one-(once)-born of God continually-guards him(self??) and (3) the evil one does (can) not touch him.

You suggested a logical (because) connection between (1) and (2) and see them as parallel. This does not go well with the contrastive ἀλλά between (1) and (2).
I do not quite understand what you mean. I read "αλλα" to mean "every [one] who has been begotten out of God does not sin, but [instead of sinning], the [one] who was begotten out of God keeps himself." Is this not the apparent meaning if we accept "εαυτον" in the text? I think I saw "αλλα" many times with such usage..
Iver Larsen wrote:On the other hand (2) and (3) are linked by καί, and say the same thing from a positive and negative aspect: Jesus guards him and Satan cannot touch him. The two pronouns have the same reference.
The next sentence "we know that we are out of God and the whole world is laid in the evil [one]" also has a "και" separating a fact concerning the believer's relation to God and a fact concerning the evil one, just as "the [one] who was begotten out of God keeps himself" is concerning the believer's relation to God and "the evil [one] does not touch him" is concerning the evil one. Both your interpretation and mine have positive and negative aspects, and also the second sentence does not have the same pronoun used twice as direct objects, so I cannot see why the Byzantine textual variant is certainly incorrect.
Iver Larsen wrote:Furthermore, the verb τηρέω is normally used by John to mean keep a commandment/word etc. The other sense of guarding someone or something to protect and preserve it is also fairly common, although not so common in John's writings. There is a similar usage of the verb in John 17:11-12:
Πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς. ὅτε ἤμην μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἐγὼ ἐτήρουν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου

The only place in the NT where you have the sense of guarding oneself is in Jas 1:27:
ἄσπιλον ἑαυτὸν τηρεῖν ἀπὸ τοῦ κόσμου.
but here the sense is clarified both by "spotless" and "from the world". It seems a stretch to suggest that such words could be implied in 1 John 5:18. There is not enough contextual support to do so.
What about Jude 1:21? It also has what we are looking for: "εαυτους εν αγαπη θεου τηρησατε" = "keep yourselves in [the] love of God". So naturally I understand 1 John 5:18 to mean "... keeps himself [from sin]" based on the context, especially since 1 John 3:3 has "purify himself" which has similar meaning but does not occur even once anywhere else in John's writings.

Regards,
David
δαυιδ λιμ
Iver Larsen
Posts: 127
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:52 am

Re: I John 5:18 ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν

Post by Iver Larsen »

Hi, David,

First about the ἀλλά. I take it as contrastive and the elements that are contrasted are indicated by the focus they get in the clauses. Therefore I consider the ἀλλά to contrast the fronted πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ with the fronted ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ. This suggests that the two subjects have different referents. The verbal phrase "not sinning" is in the least prominent position and it is not set up to contrast with τηρεῖ.

It is not clear to me what you are trying to say in your second paragraph. From a discourse/rhetorical point of view, it is noteworthy that John is here concluding his letter. His main topic here is not about sinning, but about who is in control of the regenerated person. The three parallel Οἴδαμεν ὅτι reminds the readers of what they might have known but John wants to hammer it in. (1) Jesus protects and guards the regenerated person, and the evil one cannot touch him, (2) We (regenerated people) belong to (and obey/follow) God, the world belongs to the evil one, (3) we have come to know the True one, Jesus Christ, and we are in him (belong to him and are protected by him).

John does use the reflexive pronoun in the very last sentence with a different verb: Τεκνία, φυλάξατε ἑαυτὰ ἀπὸ τῶν εἰδώλων.. If there had been a phrase "from sinning" in v. 18, you would have had a stronger case. This last sentence in 5:21 is parallel in thought to 3:3, but 5:18 is not.

Jude 1:21 is a different author and different context, but even here there is phrase that clarifies what one is to keep himself in or away from. You continue to add the words "from sin" in 5:18, words that are not in the text. I consider it unnatural and unexpected to add them in that context.

Best wishes,
Iver
David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: I John 5:18 ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν

Post by David Lim »

Iver Larsen wrote:You continue to add the words "from sin" in 5:18, words that are not in the text. I consider it unnatural and unexpected to add them in that context.
I do appreciate hearing from your point of view and I understand your reasons for your interpretation, but I am afraid you have inserted just as many, if not more, assumptions into the text, in that which you have said so far about it. I do not think anyone does not come with assumptions, and I have considered the possibility that my assumptions are incorrect, but as of now I still do not agree. But thanks a lot for your advice. :)
δαυιδ λιμ
Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”