ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 12th, 2020, 6:46 am

wcombs wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 1:45 pm

According to our definition, if ἐν + dative is used to express agency, the noun in the dative must not only be personal, but must also be the agent who performs the action.48 BDF accurately assess the NT situation of the naked dative used for personal agency: “Dative of agency is perhaps represented by only one genuine example in the NT and this with the perfect: Luke 23:15.”49 In summary, we can say that there are very few clear examples of the dative of agency in the NT, and all of them involve a perfect passive verb.
Smyth on the dative of agent. He essentially sees it as an extension of the ethical dative.

Smyth wrote:1488. Dative of the Agent.—With passive verbs (usually in the perfect and pluperfect) and regularly with verbal adjectives in -τός and -τέος, the person in whose interest an action is done, is put in the dative. The notion of agency does not belong to the dative, but it is a natural inference that the person interested is the agent.
ἐμοὶ καὶ τούτοις πέπρᾱκται has been done by (for) me and these men D. 19. 205, ἐπειδὴ αὐτοῖς παρεσκεύαστο when they had got their preparations ready T. 1. 46, τοσαῦτά μοι εἰρήσθω let so much have been said by me L. 24. 4, ἐψηφίσθαι τῇ βουλῇ let it have been decreed by the senate C. I. A. 2. 55. 9.
a. With verbal adjectives in -τός and -τέος (2149): τοῖς οἴκοι ζηλωτός envied by those at home X. A. 1. 7. 4, ἡμῖν γʼ ὑπὲρ τῆς ἐλευθερίᾱς ἀγωνιστέον we at least must struggle to defend our freedom D. 9. 70. For the accus. with -τέον, see 2152 a.

1489. The usual restriction of the dative to tenses of completed action seems to be due to the fact that the agent is represented as placed in the position of viewing an already completed action in the light of its relation to himself (Interest, advantage, possession).

1490. The dative of the agent is rarely employed with other tenses than perfect and pluperfect: λέγεται ἡμῖν is said by us P. L. 715 b, τοῖς Κερκῡραίοις οὐχ ἑωρῶντο the ships were not seen by (were invisible to) the Corcyraeans T. 1. 51; present, T. 4. 64, 109; aorist T. 2. 7.

Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (pp. 343–344). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

davidmccollough
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Joined: June 27th, 2012, 5:33 am

Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by davidmccollough » September 12th, 2020, 6:59 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 6:46 am
wcombs wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 1:45 pm

According to our definition, if ἐν + dative is used to express agency, the noun in the dative must not only be personal, but must also be the agent who performs the action.48 BDF accurately assess the NT situation of the naked dative used for personal agency: “Dative of agency is perhaps represented by only one genuine example in the NT and this with the perfect: Luke 23:15.”49 In summary, we can say that there are very few clear examples of the dative of agency in the NT, and all of them involve a perfect passive verb.
Smyth on the dative of agent. He essentially sees it as an extension of the ethical dative.

Smyth wrote:1488. Dative of the Agent.—With passive verbs (usually in the perfect and pluperfect) and regularly with verbal adjectives in -τός and -τέος, the person in whose interest an action is done, is put in the dative. The notion of agency does not belong to the dative, but it is a natural inference that the person interested is the agent.
ἐμοὶ καὶ τούτοις πέπρᾱκται has been done by (for) me and these men D. 19. 205, ἐπειδὴ αὐτοῖς παρεσκεύαστο when they had got their preparations ready T. 1. 46, τοσαῦτά μοι εἰρήσθω let so much have been said by me L. 24. 4, ἐψηφίσθαι τῇ βουλῇ let it have been decreed by the senate C. I. A. 2. 55. 9.
a. With verbal adjectives in -τός and -τέος (2149): τοῖς οἴκοι ζηλωτός envied by those at home X. A. 1. 7. 4, ἡμῖν γʼ ὑπὲρ τῆς ἐλευθερίᾱς ἀγωνιστέον we at least must struggle to defend our freedom D. 9. 70. For the accus. with -τέον, see 2152 a.

1489. The usual restriction of the dative to tenses of completed action seems to be due to the fact that the agent is represented as placed in the position of viewing an already completed action in the light of its relation to himself (Interest, advantage, possession).

1490. The dative of the agent is rarely employed with other tenses than perfect and pluperfect: λέγεται ἡμῖν is said by us P. L. 715 b, τοῖς Κερκῡραίοις οὐχ ἑωρῶντο the ships were not seen by (were invisible to) the Corcyraeans T. 1. 51; present, T. 4. 64, 109; aorist T. 2. 7.

Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (pp. 343–344). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.
Thank you! The quote by Smyth is excellent and very helpful. That makes very clear that 1 Corinthians 12:13, where the verb is an aorist passive (ἐβαπτίσθημεν), has nothing to do with agency.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 12th, 2020, 2:28 pm

1Cor. 12:13 καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν

Sure looks like Parallelism. Replacing ἐν ἑνὶ with εἰς ἓν is really clever.

Cooper[1] says when ἐν is used with a personal dative the referent of the dative is being considered as an insturment.

[1] Attic Greek Prose Syntax, vol. 2, Page 1158, § 68.12.6.B

Postscript

Anthony Thiselton (1Cor NICGTC p997) has an extensive discussion of this in which he points out that most of the 20th Century (after April 9, 1906) controversy was motivated by theological interest.
Last edited by Stirling Bartholomew on September 12th, 2020, 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

davidmccollough
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by davidmccollough » September 12th, 2020, 2:33 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:28 pm
1Cor. 12:13 καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν

Sure looks like Parallelism. Replacing ἐν ἑνὶ with εἰς ἓν is really clever.

Cooper[1] says when ἐν is used with a personal dative the referent of the dative is being considered as an insturment.

[1] Attic Greek Prose Syntax, vol. 2, Page 1158, § 68.12.6.B
Thank you for the reference to Cooper!
One could also read sequence- cf. 1 Corinthians 10:2
καὶ πάντες εἰς τὸν Μωϋσῆν ⸀ἐβαπτίσθησαν ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 13th, 2020, 8:08 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:28 pm
1Cor. 12:13 καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν

Sure looks like Parallelism. Replacing ἐν ἑνὶ with εἰς ἓν is really clever.

Cooper[1] says when ἐν is used with a personal dative the referent of the dative is being considered as an insturment.

[1] Attic Greek Prose Syntax, vol. 2, Page 1158, § 68.12.6.B

Postscript

Anthony Thiselton (1Cor NICGTC p997) has an extensive discussion of this in which he points out that most of the 20th Century (after April 9, 1906) controversy was motivated by theological interest.
What would parallelism mean here? How would it affect our understanding of the text? For Cooper/Kruger, what examples does he cite?

April 9, 1906. That's oddly specific.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

davidmccollough
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Joined: June 27th, 2012, 5:33 am

Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by davidmccollough » September 13th, 2020, 8:31 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 8:08 am
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:28 pm
1Cor. 12:13 καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν

Sure looks like Parallelism. Replacing ἐν ἑνὶ with εἰς ἓν is really clever.

Cooper[1] says when ἐν is used with a personal dative the referent of the dative is being considered as an insturment.

[1] Attic Greek Prose Syntax, vol. 2, Page 1158, § 68.12.6.B

Postscript

Anthony Thiselton (1Cor NICGTC p997) has an extensive discussion of this in which he points out that most of the 20th Century (after April 9, 1906) controversy was motivated by theological interest.
What would parallelism mean here? How would it affect our understanding of the text? For Cooper/Kruger, what examples does he cite?

April 9, 1906. That's oddly specific.
True. I don't see it affecting the translation of ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι. It is part of a sequence, 'baptised in one Spirit into one body'. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 provides a conceptual parallel:
Οὐ θέλω γὰρ ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν πάντες ὑπὸ τὴν νεφέλην ἦσαν καὶ πάντες διὰ τῆς θαλάσσης διῆλθον καὶ πάντες εἰς τὸν Μωϋσῆν ⸀ἐβαπτίσθησαν ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ καὶ πάντες ⸂τὸ αὐτὸ⸃ πνευματικὸν βρῶμα ἔφαγον καὶ πάντες τὸ oαὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας, ἡ ⸉πέτρα δὲ⸊ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.

So baptism in the cloud and baptism in the sea which bring the Israelite into Moses, would parallel baptism in Spirit and baptism in water, two baptisms which bring the Pauline initiate into the one body of Christ.
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davidmccollough
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by davidmccollough » September 16th, 2020, 8:15 am

MAubrey wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 5:56 pm
ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι is both the location and the instrument, which is the natural default for verbs of washing: "in" and "with" are blended together into a single frame. Treating πνεύματι as an agent here is incorrect...and that's true generally for ἐν πνεύματι, there's inevitably some other things going on that motivates the use of ἐν.

εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν is a secondary predication, indicating the trajectory (and thus purpose) of the washing.
Could you recommend some sources where I could read on verbs of washing as well as the idea of a 'frame'?
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MAubrey
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by MAubrey » October 19th, 2020, 10:59 am

davidmccollough wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:15 am
MAubrey wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 5:56 pm
ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι is both the location and the instrument, which is the natural default for verbs of washing: "in" and "with" are blended together into a single frame. Treating πνεύματι as an agent here is incorrect...and that's true generally for ἐν πνεύματι, there's inevitably some other things going on that motivates the use of ἐν.

εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν is a secondary predication, indicating the trajectory (and thus purpose) of the washing.
Could you recommend some sources where I could read on verbs of washing as well as the idea of a 'frame'?
Apologies. I haven't had time for B-Greek for a while...

Frame semantics:
A frame is a mental representation of something world. If I say "I walked into his home", I don't need to tell you that it has a kitchen, bathroom, & livingroom. Those elements are part of our shared mental representation of what houses look like. They are all together part of the same frame. With an event like washing, there are defined elements that a community of speakers immediately know and recognize.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNPKgbc41ic

As for my specific comment about verbs of washing...this is something that I have noted in my own research, though I'm sure there is work on it somewhere...
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davidmccollough
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Re: ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι Agent, Instrument, Sphere? I Corinthians 12:13

Post by davidmccollough » October 19th, 2020, 11:55 am

MAubrey wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 10:59 am
Apologies. I haven't had time for B-Greek for a while...

Frame semantics:
A frame is a mental representation of something world. If I say "I walked into his home", I don't need to tell you that it has a kitchen, bathroom, & livingroom. Those elements are part of our shared mental representation of what houses look like. They are all together part of the same frame. With an event like washing, there are defined elements that a community of speakers immediately know and recognize.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNPKgbc41ic

As for my specific comment about verbs of washing...this is something that I have noted in my own research, though I'm sure there is work on it somewhere...
Thank you very much for clarifying about frames.

Thank you for your help, it is appreciated!

With best wishes,
David
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