Ok, what about grape juice (not OINOS)

B. Ward Powers bwpowers at eagles.com.au
Wed Jun 14 13:45:57 EDT 2000


At 01:14 AM 000613 +0100, Ben Crick wrote:
>On Mon 12 Jun 2000 (23:19:12), emory2002 at hotmail.com wrote:
> > What would we call OINOS if it were squeezed on Monday and sipped on
> > Tuesday, before it had time to ferment to any significant alcoholic
> > level?  Obviously, OINOS had to "start off" non-alcoholic.
>
>  Dear Mark,
>
>  The Temperance Movement have never forgiven Jesus for turning SO MUCH 
> water  into wine, after they had all "well drunk"!

I do not doubt that this comment is made with much jocularity and with 
tongue bulging the cheek. Even so, it presumes that the "wine" of John 2 
was alcoholic: a question which I have commented upon in an earlier post. 
But yet more even so, I question whether such a joke about the Temperance 
Movement's attitude to Jesus is in good taste or in keeping with the 
standards of respecting the views of others and not holding them up to 
ridicule which (on other issues and other occasions) are usually rigorously 
adhered to on this list.


>  If you look at Pharaoh's butler's dream, and Joseph's interpretation of it,
>  in the LXX, you will see that the butler actually squeezed the fresh grape
>  juice into Pharaoh's cup.
>
>  ... KAI TO POTHRION FARAW EN THi CEIRI MOU: KAI ELABON THN STAFULHN, KAI
>  EXEFLIYA AUTHN EIS TO POTHRION, KAI EDWKA TO POTHRION EIS THN CEIRA FARAW.
>  (Exodus 40:11 LXX).
>
>  Unfortunately, it doesn't use any word for "juice".  8-(
>  But it testifies to the use of freshly squeezed grape juice as a beverage.

Yes it does. Though the actual reference is Genesis 40:11.
So similarly Micah 6:15, where the LXX (as I gave in a previous post)  KAI 
OINON, KAI OU MH PIHTE ("and you shall tread out ... the wine, and not 
drink [it]") shows that what it trodden out is OINOS, and this OINOS they 
shall not drink: which indicates that the normal expectation (apart from 
this promise of judgement) was that they would drink the juice which was 
pressed out.
Similarly again, Job 24:11, "they tread the winepresses but suffer thirst", 
indicates that the normal expectation was that from what emerged from the 
wine presses they would have a thirst-satisfying drink.

Thus grapejuice was one of the liquids which people drank. They also drank 
milk, and possibly fruit juices. Primarily they drank water. Joachim 
Jeremias says ["The Eucharistic Words of Jesus", pp.50-52], "Wine was drunk 
only on festive occasions ... Otherwise wine was generally used in everyday 
life only for medicinal purposes; it was regarded as an excellent medicine. 
In everyday life, water was drunk. The daily breakfast consisted of 'bread 
with salt and a tankard of water', and even at the main meal bread and 
water were the chief ingredients .. It is ... quite out of the question 
that Jesus and his disciples should have drunk wine with their daily meals."

Regards,

Ward

                                 http://www.eagles.bbs.net.au/~bwpowers
Rev Dr B. Ward Powers             Phone (International): 61-2-9799-7501
10 Grosvenor Crescent             Phone (Australia): (02) 9799-7501
SUMMER HILL  NSW  2130            email: bwpowers at eagles.bbs.net.au
AUSTRALIA.                      Director, Tyndale College




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