[B-Greek] Greek NT audio
Randall Buth
randallbuth at gmail.com
Sat Sep 27 10:51:52 EDT 2008
Thank you Leonard, for this articulate defense of Erasmianism. I especially
appreciate that you have brought out an overlooked issue. Even though
pronunciation has been discussed on this list about once a month for years,
there are still a couple of new points. I will respond between the lines
and will briefly add a clarification to Sarah Madden's post.
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 1:30 PM,
Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com> wrote:
...
> As a student of NT Greek, I would strongly recommend the Erasmian (or academic) system of pronunciation of Greek because I think it helps the student with acquisition of vocabulary quickly, which, I think, is the single most important factor in developing fluency in any language. The one-to-one correspondence between the phonemes and the graphemes enables the student to recognize words easily when read and provides aural reinforcement of the written words in a way that other systems of pronunciation cannot. Additionally, it enables the student to correctly visualize the spellings of words he has not even come across before when he listens to them being read.>
RB:
This may unconsiciously reflect a primarily written pedagogy.
"acquistion of vocabulary
quickly" is best done in a listening framework. Studies by Asher in
the 70's and confirmed by
follow-up studies point to a 200+% increase in rate of vocabulary
learning through "total
physical response", where initially nothing is written at all. That
is, the orthography is not the
medium for learning the language. Second language pedagogy doesn't want people
"visualizing the words" but visualing the ideas. When someone hears
[plüon~ploion], they
need to visualize a boat, to anticipate the presence of water, not to
see graphs for
πλοιον//PLOION/ in one's head, nor to be thinking an English word "boat".
For that, it is best to minimize the orthography as the vehicle of
language exposure.
But this is a side issue to the orthography itself. to which we will
return later below.
>
> The phoneticity of Greek with the Erasmian system of pronunciation is one of the "small mercies" of learning this otherwise not-so-easy-to-learn language.
RB:
One must add for perspective, that this 'small mercy' has generally
been taking place
in an environment where the students NEVER internalize the language.
If Erasmians
had been speaking the language and truly internalizing it, I may never
have bothered
to develop a KOINH PROFORA. One does wonder if the artificiality of
Erasmian, its
historical wrongness, and its unacceptiability to the millions of
ancient Greek readers
in Greece, have contributed to Erasmian users not bothering to work toward
fluency? I don't know. I wouldn't want to find out.
>Contrast this with the difficulties of learning an unphonetic language like English. The fact that "believe" and "receive" are spelt the way they are despite the fact that the second vowel is pronounced identically poses no great problem for many native users of English because of their total immersion in that language, but irregularities like that make life difficult for learners of English. Rules like "'i' before 'e' except after 'c'" don't help you much either because there are so many exceptions to those rules. The fact that the same phonemes are represented by different graphemes under the modern and Koine Greek pronunciation systems imposes an unnecessary strain on beginning students of ancient Greek.>
> In his article hH KOINH PROFORA, where Dr. Randall Ruth [sic]
[[RB: the name is Buth, and I'm not responsible for it.]]
>presents his case for the use of his reconstruction of the historical Koine Greek pronunciation, he makes the following statements in the introductory paragraph:
>
> Quote
>
> When a person wants to use living language methods to learn a language, one is required to make some choices about what kind of pronunciation system to use. As long as students only need to write Greek or to look at Greek on a printed page, the pronunciation system is not a very important issue.
>As soon as students set their sights on a higher goal and want to include language learning methodologies that will lead to a fluent control of the language, they must come to grips with the need to include audio and oral material in a program. And audio material for an ancient language means that decisions must be made about the kind of pronunciation system to be used.
>
> Unquote
>
> Pronunciation is not an issue if you rely solely on visual memory to learn the
words of a language.
RB:
that is something for which Erasmians have a naturally inclination,
and which is
so disasterous pedagogically. So disasterous, that the field, by and large, is
oblivious to its plight and says with a smile "it's a dead language" (as if to
say that's why I shouldn't want to think in it fluently.)
And thank you for quoting the paragraph. It contains issues that go beyond
spelling, as we will discuss below. I will the following two paragraphs to this
quote at the end of my post.
>There must be many educated non-native speakers of English who know, for example, the word "boatswain" and recognize it when they see it in print, but they would never guess that it was originally pronounced BOSN (with a long "o"). A spelliing pronunciation for that word is now available. Do those who know and use only the spelling pronunciation know and understand this word any less than those who pronounce it BOSN? There are many pronunciation differences between, for example, American and British English, involving not only vowels but also consonants, yet these differences have not led to one group of speakers being any less fluent than others. Therefore even if attempts were made in our day to revive the old Koine Greek as a "living language" by speaking it, I don't see how the users of the Erasmian system would be any less fluent than those using the supposed historical or the modern pronunciation.>
RB:
Yes, IF the Erasmians learned to speak it they would be equally fluent.
I don't have a problem with fluent Erasmians.
But for most Erasmian pedagogy, sound is just a little ornamention.
And I wouldn't recommend trying to become a fluent Erasmian,
more on this below.
> Those who learn Greek with a teacher need to easily recognize Greek words when they are spoken by him. This is most efficiently accomplished by a phonetic system of pronunciation--the Erasmian system. Students who wish to augment their learning with audio materials are best served by a system of pronunciation that provides aural reinforcement of the written words, as mentioned above.
>
> Indeed the very basis on which Dr. Randall Ruth [sic-RB] has reconstructed the vowel system used in Koine Greek, i. e., by studying the O/W confusion, etc., is actually an argument AGAINST adopting the assumed historical pronunciation for the study of NT Greek: If fluent and life-long users of Koine Greek sometimes confused certain vowels, what would be the plight of hapless modern students who adopt that system of pronunciation?
RB:
so if KOINH was good enough for Paul and James, John and Peter,
(most/all of whom learned Greek as a second language,)
it is not good enough for us?
Poor hapless James, John, and Peter.
>The possibility of confusion of certain vowels as evidenced in ancient manuscripts was, I think, a defect of the language, an indication that the language had degenerated by losing certain phonemes that had existed before. I am sure that linguists like Dr. Ruth [sic] will acknowledge that not every change in a language is for the better.>
RB
Actually, most language changes are simplifications, and the speakers consider
them for the better. 'Degenerate' is perjorative.
>
> The fact that in certain versions of the Erasmian system certain vowels are not distinguished is pointed out as a defect of that system. But in the version I learnt NT Greek with ("The Elements of NT Greek" by J. W. Wenham), EI and H and distinguished, with the former pronounced as a diphthong (as in "late" /leit/), and U and OU are pronounced to rhyme with "put" and "route" (British pronunciation of course!) respectively. This leaves only EU and HU, which are pronounced identically. O is pronounced as the "o" in "lot" (again, as in the British pronunciation, not /la:t/ as in the standard American pronunciation!).
>
RB:
theoretically one can clean up Erasmian, of course. You were not
clear, though, how you
treated HTA. And I wonder if you are being honest with yourself on Y
as in LYW "I untie"?
I still hear most English-based learners recite paradigms for 'wash'
LOYEIN//LOYESQAI
when they intend be reciting LYEIN 'untie, dissolve'. And Wenham
students have tended
to butcher the accent system (yes, perjorative, but while I can listen
to correctly spoken
Erasmian, I must shut my ears to mis-accented Erasmian.
> Dr. Randall Ruth wrote in a post:
>
> Quote
>
> Consider French, with spelling quite a bit trickier than Koine Greek. "French for Reading" is sometimes taught to grad students in Erasmian 'pronounce each graph', but never for students of French lit. And 'French for Reading' students do not develop toward fluency. What French department would ever consider giving a student 1-2-3 years of French according to Erasmian pronunciation rules, and then saying, "by the way, you can change to the French system if you ever get the urge"? I think the serious students would feel betrayed.
>
> Unquote
>
> I think this is an argument by false analogy. French is a living language. True fluency in French is achieved by not only by reading French writings but also by listening to spoken French and speaking it, the last two of which require that you have the ability to recognize French words when spoken by a fluent speaker and to pronounce words in an acceptable manner. The student of French--and this applies to other living languages--is not at liberty to choose the system of pronunciation he will use because it has already been decided for him by others who speak the language. And he must master the pronunciation of those whom he wishes to communicate with--whether he likes it or not-- if he is to develop true fluency in that language.
>
> But the case of Koine Greek is quite different. Koine Greek is a dead language with no living speakers. Those who speak it today do so basically in classroom situations, i.e., role play, as a learning aid. But why cannot we use the Erasmian system in role play? Unlike in the case of a living language, students of NT Greek ARE at liberty to choose the system of pronunciation. Dr. Randall Ruth's contention would be valid if there was AT LEAST ONE LIVING KOINE SPEAKER LEFT ON EARTH from whom we could learn and on whom we could practice our Koine.
>
RB
This is a false "false analogy". If fact there are quite a few million
users of ancient
Greek who use a modern pronunciation, the whole Greek nation.
I like being able to talk with them. I can.
They even understand me with my KOINH PROFORA. They do not like to
listen to Erasmian, at all. They tolerate me, especially when I use
ITA for occasional
clarification.
And Erasmians tend to make a strong dichotomy and cut off the whole Greek
nation from the discussion, as if only a small academy of persons not-fluent in
the language counts.
> I think that the real motives for advocating a reconstructed or the modern system of
> pronunciation in the study of NT Greek are probably more psychological than
> practical: The artificiality of the Erasmian system somehow makes one feel
that one is not speaking "real" Greek resulting in a sense of dissatisfaction--
RB:
Yes, I think that there is something to this point. And it may be
quite a bit more
practical than you realize.
I have learned to speak many languages as an adult.
I have to look myself in the mirror. I have a sense of personal integrity.
I would not be able to put in the thousands of hours necessary for the task of
internalizing the language if I knew that it was certainly at variance
with the phonemic system of what I was studying and sounded offensive to
millions of Greek users.
MenaHem Begin in Israel said something appropriate when discussing modern
Hebrew pronunciation. He said that a Yiddish pronunciation was absolutely
impossible for the new state's army. NO ONE could take an officier
seriously who
said " Amoid doim "
(yiddish pronunciation of Hebrew for "stand at attention" "Amod dom".
So, yes, I really do have an aversion to investing 3000 hours in order to sound
like "amoid doim". But there is a positive side too, of enhancing motivation.
Perhaps the points that set me down a different path were the fact that I did
not start to work on truly internalizing Greek until after I had
worked with Greek
for 25 years. That was after I already knew that the first century
phonology was
quite a bit different from what I had first and secondly been taught.
I knew for a
fact that Paul and Luke, James and Peter pronounced EI the same as I. Most
on this list are not aware of that fact, so they don't feel the distance and
are not concious of potential embarassment. And I've had Greek-speaking trader
friends even in the bush in Africa. Enhanced motivation comes from picking up
an ancient papyri or NT manuscript and reading it clearly as spelled.
Enhanced motivation comes from knowing that one is doing something right
and following the path of the language community that one is studying. And
motivation is one of the major factors of success in any language program.
>perhaps the linguistic equivalent of the psychological difference involved in wearing,
say, an original Levi vs. wearing a "Levi" that the wearer is aware is
fake, even
though the latter may be more comfortable to wear?!
>
RB:
maybe a better analogy on Levis would be to add "and have holes in the pants."
Again, many on this list don't know that there are holes in the pants. But it
behooves them to find out before they invest 3000 hours into retooling.
> We must never lose sight of the fact that the main purpose of learning NT Greek is to be able to read and understand the NT and related ancient writings. An authentic pronunciation is important only when we want to communicate with speakers of a living language. That learning NT Greek with the modern Greek or the Koine Greek pronunciation can confer some benefits on the student is not denied (i.e., in the areas of textual criticism, word play and, in the case of the modern pronunciation, an easy transition to modern Greek), but the issue is: Are the advantages of learning NT Greek with the historical or the modern pronunciation such that they far outweigh the advantages of using the Erasmian system?
RB:
This part of the post is rhetorically unfair. Why would KOINH have to
"FAR" outweigh Erasmian?
Isn't 'better on balance" good enough? Isn't acceptance by the
national language owners
worth something? shouldn't a rapprochement be investigated, and
adopted if found
feasible, easy, and historically accurate to boot?
>The answer has to be an emphatic No. I think pragmatic rather than purist considerations should carry more weight in our decision on which pronunciation system to adopt when teaching and learning Koine Greek.
>
RB:
I, too, like "practical", and I did ask myself at the beginning, is
this practical, feasible and
not too difficult? The ancient Greek users themselves answered this
for me. Their actions
said, "Yes, this is not too difficult. And it's real." And doing
something that one knows
to be false will undermine one's resolve and willpower to go all the
way. But then
again, historically, Erasmians have not been interested in going all
the way. Why
would a learner try to connect with that community (not being able to
converse with
them anyway at the end of the road) and ignore the living Greek community (with
whom one can converse on some levels, even in KOINH)?
Sarah Madden added:
> (for example, the word "Koine" is pronounced "keenee" in Koine Greek instead of "koinay" in Erasmium Greek)
RB:
It is not helpful to misstate someone's position if you are going to disagree.
IN KOINH the pronounciation was [küné]. Which raises the question on
whether the system being rejected by the speaker has been understood?
Sarah
>pronunciation (using the Erasmium system as shown in Mounce's Basics of
Biblical Greek),
RB
If I am not mistaken, the "tan thean" 'female goddess' pronunciation
of KOINH is
associated with Mounce. I have not wanted to raise names, not being sure,
but there, the cat is out of the bag.
Finally I can add that our website was updated last night with an updated
version of the KOINH Profora. It is a link in "courses"
'Greek demo", and also in "Online Orders" in the description on Greek
materials. (Don't fear, there is no danger of accidentally ordering
something.)
Some footnotes have been added and more discussion on HTA.
Hopefully, this clarifies some of the issues. I think that Leonard is
correct in
suggesting that the phonology choice may be influenced by where one wants to
end up and whether someone wants a reasonable sense of authenticity. And
I don't believe that "the best system for being able to accurately spell" is
the only and decisive criterion. If it were, I would use a Restored
Attic, which is
Erasmian in theory (certainly not Mouncian Erasmian). But when all the factors
are weighed together, then I actually end up with Erasmian being the
least attractive
of the four positions in my paper. This is, of course, a case of "a chaqu'un
son gout" each has their own taste. I just have to live with myself.
And Greeks would like to be able to live with us.
For clarity on criteria I am appending two paragraphs from KOINH PROFORA:
"Principles Governing the Pronunciation in this Course
# 1. The pronunciation system is primarily intended for persons
wishing to learn Koiné Greek, the general Greek dialect used from the
third century before the common era (BCE) to the fourth century of the
common era (CE). In particular, the focus is on the Koiné Greek of
what is historically the Roman period in the land of Israel, 63 BCE to
325 CE.
# 2. The pronunciation should preserve the same significant sound
distinctions that were used in the Roman period. This means that the
pronunciation system should be phonemic. This term will be explained
below.
# 3. The pronunciation system should, as far as practical, be
historical. That is, it should reflect the way in which the language
sounded in the Roman period.
# 4. When options were available, the pronunciation should help
students with adapting to other dialects of Greek so as to become a
bridge to the whole Greek language. When in doubt, decisions should
fit with the known historical outcome.
# 5. When options were available, the pronunciation should be
practical for speakers of English, Spanish, French and German.
"Why Use a Koiné Pronunciation?"
A phonemic Koiné results in a dialect in which the user will
appreciate the sounds and writings of the first three Christian
centuries in a manner in which the original audiences would have
perceived them. ἡ κοινὴ προφορά was their system. It provides an
additional perspective on word choices by an author. Assonance, rhyme,
and avoidance of ambiguity become clearer.
Pronunciation may only become an issue when someone wants to invest
the time and energy to become truly fluent in the language, able to
think, to listen and to read at normal conversational speeds. After
such work would the student like to end up feeling like and sounding
somewhat Greek? Hopefully. For those coming from a different system, a
relatively small change at the beginning of the renewal effort is
worthwhile. Additionally, the phonemic Koiné is close enough to Modern
Greek so that Greek speakers accept it as 'something Greek' and
'non-offensive', even if not the same dialect. "
Is an occasional spellling mistake too high a price to pay? Spelling
and writing is a more
reflective side of a language, anyway, and they use different skills
from language fluency
and they allow for historical spelling. Historical spelling is
relatively easy for us moderns
since we have regualized written texts that we access every day.
Knowingly chosing something wrong, (like separating EI from I and
putting it close to
HTA, or joining Y to OY), is also a very high price to pay.
I would say crippling. But that's my opinion.
ERRWSQE
IWANHS
--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
randallbuth at gmail.com
Biblical Language Center
Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
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