[B-Greek] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

Timothy Lawson tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 5 16:06:22 EST 2010


Ah! Carl,

     I saw that you typed PARALEIPOMENOI but I assumed it was a typo on your part. You gave an accompanying bit of the text prior to your "typo" which shows it correctly as PERILEIPOMENOI.

PERILEIPOMENOI  is not specifically discussed in Wallace. He does however, mention that the transitive force of EIS may be overriden by the "stative" nature of its controlling verb.(pg 359 paragraphs 2 and 3. He also briefly discusses how to determine that a verb is "stative." (pp. 412-13) His method includes its ability to be translated into English with a be verb + a predicate adjective. This seem a bit strange to me and that is one reason I am seeking clarification on how to determine the "stative" nature of a Greek verb.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I have a "cavalier" attitude toward BDAG. This is not the case. I had been told that the primary function of all lexicons is to give possible ways to translate their terms into the receptor language, rather than giving all its possible uses as may have been found in the lexicon of the minds of its original speakers/listeners. 

T. Scott Lawson




________________________________
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: B-Greek B-Greek <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 12:00:46 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15

On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:
> 
> Okay,
>  
>      Rather than trying to translate it into English, let me ask, is PERILEIPOMENOI "stative" and if so does it override the force of EIS? I'm seeking only the possible nuance of the Greek and I'll leave the implications of its translation into English alone.

I asked for the reference in Wallace about PARALEIPOMENOI (again I ask, it is PARA- not PERI-, isn't it?). I was trying to do a search through indexes in Wallace and couldn't find what you're talking about. A page number would help.


> If I check BDAG it will only give me possible options for translating into English so I'll leave that alone for a moment to concentrate on the flavor of the Biblical Greek.

Frankly, that seems a rather cavalier attitude toward the function of BDAG. A really good lexicon is not a glossary for a suitable translation; it is a carefully detailed analysis of the usage of the word in question in a vast database of relevant texts. In this instance I would study the lengthy entry on EIS, NOT in order to find out how to translate it, but in order to understand how it is most likely to be used in a context including such an adjective with participial overtones as PARALEIPOMENOI.

cwc

> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 11:29:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15
> 
> On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Lawson wrote:
> > Conrad,
>> >  Sorry about the doctrinal discussion/implications. I thought it would help clarify my question. 
>> > You write:
> > "I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to."
> > 
> > I'll admit that I've been getting that a lot, lately.
>> > You write:
>> > "The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is "left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord.""
> > 
>> > I note that "left behind" could still be considered a predicate adjective in English. Thus ...we the living who are left behind for/until - such- time - as the coming of the Lord... could still indicate that PERILEIPOMENOI might be "stative." Are Wallace's comments on determining a "stative" applicable here?
> 
> It seems to me that you are hung up on how the Greek is to be read in English, rather than upon understanding the Greek as Greek. What's the reference for Wallace on 'stative' relative to PARALEIPOMENOI (it is PARALEIPOMENOI rather than PERILEIPOMENOI, isn't it?)? It seems to me that EIS used with PARALEIPOMENOI implies as a sense for THN PAROUSIAN: "with a view toward, looking forward to" with THN PAROUSIAN as a terminal point of expectation.
>> >  Also, it seems that you are indicating that "for" is acceptable; for whatever grammatical reasons that may exist; as a translation for EIS in this text. Am I correct?
> 
> Don't be so hung up on how to translate it -- any number of English expressions might convey the sense here. The range of usage of EIS is really very extensive; I suggest you take a good look at the BDAG entry on this preposition.
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> > To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:30:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating EIS at 1 Thess. 4:15
> > 
> > On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Timothy Lawson wrote:
> >> To All:
> >>  
> >> At 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul connects the timing of the so called “rapture” to the PAROUSIA. What inferences can be drawn, as regards timing, by Paul’s unique use of the preposition EIS with PAROUSIA? 
> > 
> > Text: 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· 
> > [TOUTO GAR hUMIN LEGOMEN EN LOGWi KURIOU, hOTI hHMEIS hOI ZWNTES hOI PERILEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU OU MH FQASWMEN TOUS KOIMHQENTAS·]
> > 
> > I should say first of all that it is not our practice on B-Greek to discuss doctrine as such; the passage you ask about is certainly open to a variety of interpretations, but our limited focus here is on elucidating the possibilities of understanding the Greek text.
> > 
> > Note that EIS here is used with an article THN and then the noun PAROUSIAN. The natural way of understanding PARALEIPOMENOI EIS THN PAROUSIAN TOU KURIOU is "left behind for/until-such-time-as the coming of the Lord."
> > 
> >>  Should EIS be translated as “to,” “till,” “until” or “up to” and thus convey the idea that the “rapture” event could be expected early in the PAROUSIA or, should it be translated as “for” or “during” the PAROUSIA and leave the timing of the “rapture” indefinite?
> > 
> > I think you are asking more questions than the Greek text will provide clear answers to.
> > 
> > Carl W. Conrad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



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