[B-Greek] Ephesians 1:22
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Mon Mar 8 17:03:30 EST 2010
Could not the recipient be AUTON as was already shared?
In any case, thank you., I will research other uses of DIDWMI with such datives (if there are any), but in the mean time let me give an example of what I am trying to say.
(Even though, as Yancy said, “I know it is dangerous to introduce semantic parallels from other languages,” but please give me a dispensation to use this one example in our modern parlance).
“The constitution puts the armed forces of the United States under the control of the President and makes him commander in chief by means of his joint chiefs of staff.”
The constitution would equal QEOS; the armed forces would equal PANTA; the president would equal AUTOU (Christ); makes would equal EDWKEN; the commander in chief would equal AUTON (KEFALHN hUPER PANTA ), and the joint chiefs of staff would equal THi EKKLHSIAi.
This scenario, obviously, takes EDWKEN more in the sense of “appoint.”
It seems the writer of the epistle is trying to show the Church her position in the grand scheme of things, rather than just her personal position with Christ, (although, of course, that is included).
Best regards,Blue Harris
________________________________
From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 10:57:14 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 1:22
The sense "to give" requires a recipient. I'd be curious if you can find another instance of ditransitive DIDWMI with an instrumental or commitative dative. Syntactically & semantically it must be a recipient. You've got to give something to someone.
________________________________
From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: rhutchin at aol.com
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 10:50:07 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 1:22
Roger Hutchinson wrote:
>What is the purpose for THi EKKLHSIAi? Is it the object of EDWKEN?
>What idea is the writer trying to convey to the reader? The KJV translators added language to try to sort out what is being said but I get the impression that they were not sure what to do with THi EKKLHSIAi.
Eph. 1:22-23 – KAI PANTA hUPETAXEN hUPO TOUS PODAS AUTOU KAI AUTON EDWKEN KEFALHN hUPER PANTA THi EKKLHSIAi,
hHTIS ESTIN TO SWMA AUTOU, TO PLHRWMA TOU TA PANTA EN PASIN PLHROUMENOU
When one considers the body metaphor repeatedly used by Paul, it seems one should consider THi EKKLHSIAi is being used as – 1) an instrumental dative, or perhaps, 2) a comitative dative. If comitative, I guess one would have to conclude that the church receives some type of responsibility in the “giving” as well? – But more than likely, it seems number 1) would give the better understanding – “And He placed all things under his feet and gave Him as head over all things by (with) the church which is his body…”
Smyth says,
(1503) "The Greek dative, as the representative of the lost instrumental case, denotes that by which or with which an action is done or accompanied. It is of two kinds: (1) The instrumental dative proper; (2) The comitative dative.
(1504) When the idea denoted by the noun in the dative is the instrument or means, it falls under (1); if it is a person (not regarded as the instrument or means) or any other living being, or a thing regarded as a person, it belongs under (2); if an action, under (2).
Paul seems to hint at such an understanding in such verses as Rom. 8:17, and it also helps explain his metaphor in Rom. 16:20 – hO DE QEOS THS EIRHNHS SUNTRIYEI TON SATANAN hUPO TOUS PODAS hUMWN EN TACEI. hH CARIS TOU KURIOU hHMWN IHSOU MEQ' hUMWN.
This also seems to contextually tie in with his thought in Eph. 2:6, his metaphor in Eph. 5 (bride/co-regent?) and his exhortation to fight in chapter 6.
However, it worries me that I have not been able to find any version, and/or translator that have understood it in this way. That usually means I am not seeing something, although, it does seem Chrysostom saw this possible connection. He says in his homily on this passage (Hom. III) –
“Amazing again, whither hath He raised the Church? As though he were lifting it up by some engine, he hath raised it up to a vast height, and set it on yonder “throne;” for where the Head is, there is the body also. There is no interval to separate between the Head and the body; for were there a separation then were it no longer a body, then were it no longer a head. ‘Over all things,’ he says. What is meant by ‘over all things?’ He hath suffered neither angel nor Archangel nor any other being to be above Him. But not only in this way hath He honored us, in exalting that which is of ourselves, but also in that He hath prepared the whole race in common to follow Him, to cling to Him, to accompany His train.”
“…Let us reverence our Head, let us reflect of what a Head we are the body –a Head, to whom all things are put in subjection. According to this representation we ought to be better, yea, than the very angels, and greater than the Archangels, in that we have been honored above them all.”
Is there anything that would absolutely preclude such an understanding?
Sincerely,
Blue Harris
________________________________
From: "rhutchin at aol.com" <rhutchin at aol.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 6:29:38 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] Ephesians 1:22
We read;
...KAI AUTON EDWKEN KEFALHN hUPER PANTA THi EKKLHSIAi.
How do the parts of this fit together?
Does KEFALHN hUPER PANTA modify AUTON or is it the object of EDWKEN?
What is the purpose for THi EKKLHSIAi? Is it the object of EDWKEN?
What idea is the writer trying to convey to the reader? The KJV translators added language to try to sort out what is being said but I get the impression that they were not sure what to do with THi EKKLHSIAi.
Roger Hutchinson
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