[B-Greek] Semantic Features and Rhetorical Use of the Greek Perfect
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Mar 9 05:16:22 EST 2010
A brief response to a double dose of what I should call "Klassic Kline" seems in order.
On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> off list contribution, cited with permission.
>
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Calvin & Ruth Mathys wrote:
>
>> I think the definition of the perfect needs to be clarified. A perfect
>> describes a verb-situation that happened in the past and also has present
>> relevance. It *doesn't* say that the verb-situation itself persists to the
>> present moment, let alone beyond it. What it says is that the past
>> situation has some *significance* now. (It also doesn't specify how far
>> back in the past the verb-situation took place, c.f. "it is written".)
>>
>
> If present *significance* is the meaning of the perfect form then what about other tense-aspect forms, do the lack present *significance*? I really don't understand this.
>
> The original discussion had a more or less negative purpose, to point out the weakness of affirming "permanence" as a semantic attribute of the perfect in 1Jn 4:2. It is much easier to point out what the perfect doesn't mean than it is to establish what it does mean. I am certainly a confirmed agnostic on verb aspect theory.
I suspect it is easier to justify agnosticism in this instance than to justify any sort of confidence. I think Protagoras might have said something like, PERI MEN TOUTWN, OUK ECW EIDENAI; POLLA GAR TA KWLUONTA EIDENAI, hH T' ADHLOTHS KAI BRACUS WN hO BIOS TOU ANQRWPOU
[περὶ μὲν τούτων οὐκ ἔχω εἰδέναι· πολλὰ γὰρ τὰ κωλύοντα εἰδέναι ἥ τ' ἀδηλότης καὶ βραχὺς ὢν ὁ βίος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου]. In his turn Socrates might have said PERI MENTOI EU TOUTWN OIDA OUDEN EIDWS [περὶ μέντοι τούτων εὖ οἶδα οὐδὲν εἰδώς]
On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:39 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Calvin & Ruth Mathys wrote:
>
>> A perfect
>> describes a verb-situation that happened in the past and also has present
>> relevance. It *doesn't* say that the verb-situation itself persists to the
>> present moment, let alone beyond it. What it says is that the past
>> situation has some *significance* now. (It also doesn't specify how far
>> back in the past the verb-situation took place, c.f. "it is written".)
>
> I have just looked into Homeric references on the perfect. Monro seems to agree with H.W. Smyth.
>
> H.B. Monro Grammar of the Homeic Dialect 2nd ed. 1891. page 31 #28
>
> "Meaning of the Perfect. The Perfect denotes a lasting condition or attitude (ἕξις). If we compare the meaning of any Perfect with that of the corresponding Aorist or Present, we shall usually find that the Perfect denotes a permanent state, the Aor. or Pres. an action which brings about or constitutes that state."
>
> A.R. Benner Selections from the Iliad, page 391 #187
>
> "The prefect denotes a present condition and is to be rendered by the English present."
>
> The rest of Benner's paragraph is nuanced with examples but difficult to transcribe. You might be able to find it by searching on the text I have provided.
>
> These citations are just food for thought.
I just love formulations about grammatical usage that go, "we shall usually find ... " That little catch always leaves wiggle room for some exception to ambush you and gleefully shout, "Gotcha!"
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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