[B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

Richard Lindeman oblchurch at msn.com
Thu Mar 11 12:40:58 EST 2010


Well, after all that has been said, I'm not quite sure what I "believe" concerning concerning the translation of this text.
But what I "like" the best is the rendition that goes ""I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have 
always been a herdsman and a dresser of figs." And to be truly honest, I'm not quite sure if I like that version best simply because it sounds so good in English. 
But if the vagueness of Greek Syntax will permit it, then I suppose that is fine with me.

Rich Lindeman

 


From: Mark Lightman 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:13 AM
To: Carl Conrad ; Richard Lindeman 
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5


      Hi, Richard,

      I am a little confused myself, but if you put a gun to
      my head, I would say either 

      a.  The Hebrew simply means "I am not a prophet."  But
      by the time the LXX was written, Amos had become
      accepted as a prophet, so the translators added the
      verb to indicate that he HAD not been a prophet, but
      he now is.  They wanted to use the perfect to express this,
      but because there is no  perfect of EIMI they used the
      imperfect.  Smyth's "Imperfect for the Perfect."  Wallace
      and Zerwick do this too, all the time.  The "genitive
      for the dative," the "present for the future."  That sort
      of thing.  The middle for the schmiddle.

      OR 

      b.  The LXX guys just wanted to jazz the text up
      a little bit so they used a marked tense to do this.
      Again they would have used ANY marked tense, but
      all they had was the imperfect so they went with this.

      If you still believe (b) I still agree with you, sort of.

      Mark L


      FWSFOROS MARKOS

      --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:


        From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
        Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
        To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>, "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
        Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
        Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:27 AM


        Mark:

        Now I am really confused. I have clearly wavered between several different possible takes on this text that have ranged between 
        iterative and non-iterative,  perfective and non-perfective.  So, exactly which "take on this text" are you now agreeing with?

        Rich Lindeman 


        From: Mark Lightman 
        Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:24 AM
        To: Carl Conrad ; Richard Lindeman 
        Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
        Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5


              Richard wrote:

              <It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately 
              comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his 
              statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation mark 
              to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that the 
              author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of 
              HMHN might then be taken as perfective.>

              Hi, Richard,

              This is essentially what Yancy said about the perfect.  To the extent
              that both the perfect and imperfect are "semantically Marked--I mean
              marked" they both invite a reader's response to see the text as just
              a little more emphatic if the reader chooses to do so..  The unmarked thing would
              have been to use GINOMAI in the aorist, or, better yet, to leave the verb out--
              again what the Hebrew did.  But that would have made too much sense
              because it would have left the meaning of the text too clear.
                
              It reminds me of the recently discovered committee meeting notes of
              of the LXX translation team:

              DEMETRIUS:  First order of business.  The Roman Jews are accusing
              us of being traitors.  They are saying ""Traduttore, traditore."  

              DIONYSIUS:  I say, if this be treason, let's make the most of it!

              In other words, I agree with your take on this text. 

               Mark L
              Φωσφορος

              FWSFOROS MARKOS

              --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:


                From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
                Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
                To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
                Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
                Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 7:49 AM


                It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately 
                comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his 
                statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation mark 
                to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that the 
                author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of 
                HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
                Rich Lindeman

                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
                To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
                Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
                Subject: Re: [B-Greek]  A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

                > On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
                >> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
                >> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a 
                >> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
                >>
                >> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a prophet. 
                >> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
                >
                > And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb EIMI 
                > should ever have?
                >
                > CWC
                >
                >> From: Mark Lightman
                >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
                >> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
                >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
                >>
                >>
                >>      Richard wrote:
                >>
                >>      <How about an iterative imperfect?
                >>
                >>      "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
                >>       but I have always been
                >>      a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
                >>
                >>      Hi, Richard,
                >>
                >>      Yes, that sounds good to me.  My only question would
                >>      be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
                >>      the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
                >>
                >>      Mark L
                >>
                >>
                >>      FWSFOROS MARKOS
                >>
                >>      --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>        From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
                >>        Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
                >>        To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
                >>        Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
                >>
                >>
                >>        How about an iterative imperfect?
                >>
                >>        "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have 
                >> always been
                >>        a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
                >>
                >>        Rich Lindeman
                >>
                >>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
                >>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
                >>> ?
                >>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
                >>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
                >
                >
                > Carl W. Conrad
                > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
                >
                >
                >
                > 
                ---
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