[B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

Yancy Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Thu Mar 11 16:11:41 EST 2010


Here's a hypothetical conditional that has sent me back to scratching my Sycamore tree:

Λεωνίδας ὁ Ἀναξανδρίδα, ἀδελφὸς δὲ Κλεομένους, πρός τινα εἰπόντα ‘πλὴν τοῦ βασιλεύειν οὐδὲν ἡμῶν διαφέρεις’ ‘ἀλλ' οὐκ ἄν’ ἔφη, ‘εἰ μὴ βελτίων ὑμῶν ἤμην, ἐβασίλευον.’

LEWNIDAS hO ANAXANDRIDA, ADELFOS DE KLEOMENOUS, PROS TINA EIPONTA "PLHN TOU BASILEUEIN OUDEN HMWN DIAFEREIS" "ALL' OUK AN EFH, 'EI MH BELTIWN hUMWN HMHN, EBASILEUON."

Leonidas the Anaxandrian, brother of Kleomenes, to someone who remarked, "Except for reigning you are no more important than us" [said] "But he would not say 'Unless I were better that you, I would be reigning.'"

Sounds like a joke.


Yancy Smith
Yancy W. Smith, PhD
World Bible Translation Center
4028 Daley Ave., Suite 201
Fort Worth, TX 76180
p 817-595-1664
f 817580-7013
yancy at wbtc.org

Be kinder than necessary for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.



-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lindeman
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:28 AM
To: Mark Lightman; Carl Conrad
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

Mark:

Now I am really confused. I have clearly wavered between several different possible takes on this text that have ranged between 
iterative and non-iterative,  perfective and non-perfective.  So, exactly which "take on this text" are you now agreeing with?

Rich Lindeman 


From: Mark Lightman 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:24 AM
To: Carl Conrad ; Richard Lindeman 
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5


      Richard wrote:

      <It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately 
      comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his 
      statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation mark 
      to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that the 
      author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of 
      HMHN might then be taken as perfective.>

      Hi, Richard,

      This is essentially what Yancy said about the perfect.  To the extent
      that both the perfect and imperfect are "semantically Marked--I mean
      marked" they both invite a reader's response to see the text as just
      a little more emphatic if the reader chooses to do so..  The unmarked thing would
      have been to use GINOMAI in the aorist, or, better yet, to leave the verb out--
      again what the Hebrew did.  But that would have made too much sense
      because it would have left the meaning of the text too clear.
        
      It reminds me of the recently discovered committee meeting notes of
      of the LXX translation team:

      DEMETRIUS:  First order of business.  The Roman Jews are accusing
      us of being traitors.  They are saying ""Traduttore, traditore."  

      DIONYSIUS:  I say, if this be treason, let's make the most of it!

      In other words, I agree with your take on this text. 

       Mark L
      Φωσφορος

      FWSFOROS MARKOS

      --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:


        From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
        Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
        To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
        Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
        Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 7:49 AM


        It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately 
        comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his 
        statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation mark 
        to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that the 
        author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of 
        HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
        Rich Lindeman

        --------------------------------------------------
        From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
        To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
        Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
        Subject: Re: [B-Greek]  A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

        > On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
        >> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
        >> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a 
        >> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
        >>
        >> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a prophet. 
        >> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
        >
        > And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb EIMI 
        > should ever have?
        >
        > CWC
        >
        >> From: Mark Lightman
        >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        >> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
        >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
        >>
        >>
        >>      Richard wrote:
        >>
        >>      <How about an iterative imperfect?
        >>
        >>      "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
        >>       but I have always been
        >>      a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
        >>
        >>      Hi, Richard,
        >>
        >>      Yes, that sounds good to me.  My only question would
        >>      be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
        >>      the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
        >>
        >>      Mark L
        >>
        >>
        >>      FWSFOROS MARKOS
        >>
        >>      --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >>        From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
        >>        Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
        >>        To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
        >>        Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
        >>
        >>
        >>        How about an iterative imperfect?
        >>
        >>        "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have 
        >> always been
        >>        a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
        >>
        >>        Rich Lindeman
        >>
        >>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
        >>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
        >>> ?
        >>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
        >>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
        >
        >
        > Carl W. Conrad
        > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
        >
        >
        >
        > 
        ---
        B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
        B-Greek mailing list
        B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
        http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
     

---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek




More information about the B-Greek mailing list