[B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
Timothy Lawson
tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Mon Mar 22 11:08:35 EDT 2010
Richard,
I hope you will forgive my intrusion into your discussion on prepositions. You were quite specific in wanting to hear from the more experienced members of b-greek so I send this with some trepidation. I too, am trying to get my mind around how prepositions work.
Since adverbs come after the "verbs" they modify I wonder if it wouldn't be better to view them as postpositive prepositions, rather than viewing prepositions as adverbs? I dunno. In any case, it is interesting to note that while adverbs only modify or clarify something about the verb they do not control it. However, prepositions may be influenced/controlled by their governing verbs. Then in turn the prepositions may influence/control/govern the nouns. Wallace's GGBB pg. 360 C. Prepositions and simple Case Constuctions says this:
"1. Do Prepostions Govern or Merely Clarify?
Older NT grammars generally denied that prepositions govern their cases. For example, Dana and Mantey argue,
It is incorrect...to say that prepositions govern cases [italic mine]. But it is true that as cases limit and define the rations of verbs to substantives, so also prepositions help to express more exactly and effectively thevery distinctions for which cases were created...13
This statement is generally accurate for classical Greek, but not Koine. Some of the case uses in the classical period were quite subtle. As the language progressed in the Koine period, such subtleties were replaced with more explicit statements...Hence, the prepositional phrase does not always communicate more explicity what a naked case could communicate; sometimes it communicates something other than what a simplee case would normally communicate. In this respect it is legitimate to speak of prepositions as governing nouns. 14"
Richard, Wallace's comments below from pages 358-9 backs up the notion that the verbs can govern the prepositions:
"2. Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs
One observation to be made about prepositions is whether they are stative or transitive. That is, does a given preposition suggest merely a state or does it imply motion? The chart above indicates transitive prepositions by the use of arrows, while stative prepositions are displayed with simple lines having no arrows.
All is not as it seems, however. A stative preposition can occur with a verb of motion, just like a transitive preposition can occur with a stative verb. In such instances, how are we to interpret the data? For example, PROS + accusative indicates movement toward the object as in Luke 6:47: PAS hO ERCHOMENOS PROS ME (“everyone who comes to me”). The verb and preposition match each other: they both imply motion. But in John 1:1 PROS is translated with: hO LOGOS HN PROS TON THEON (“the Word was with God”). In this instance the verb and preposition do not match: The verb is stative and the preposition is transitive.
PROS is not the only preposition whose force is overridden by a verb. Virtually all instances of stative verbs with prepositions of motion go in this direction. Note, for example, the uses of EIS with a stative verb. EIS generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a stative verb, such as THREO, KAQHMAI, EIMI, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the stative verb (cf., THREO EIS in Acts 25:4; KAQHMAI EIS in Mark 13:3).
These texts illustrate a general principle: Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea."
The above observations have led me to have a keener interest in learning how to discern what makes a verb "stative" since it may have such an interesting influence on the transitive force of a preposition.
You may be well aware that there are two schools of thought (as indicated by Wallace in footnote 14 on pg. 361) about prepositions: One school views them as simply clarifying the meaning of the cases, often with the results that the prepositions are not treated seperately from case uses; the other school sees the preposition as the dominant element, with the result that prepositions deserve their own special treatment.
I apologize if this was an intrusion,
Scotty
________________________________
From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 6:20:03 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
Carl:
Let me take theological descriptors entirely out and try to explain my
thoughts in a different way.
Prepositions are the adverbial governors for verbs serving(almost like a
steering wheel for a car in motion) as directional pointers for verbal
action. In contrast to that, case endings are the adjectival governors for
nouns serving(almost like a traffic signpost attached to a solid object) as
directional pointers posted for the driver(subject) of any intersecting
verbal action. And to the observer of traffic around that object, it seems
most fairly clear that the steering column of passing drivers seems to be
affected most dynamically by the directions printed on the sign.
OK... I know full well that the above analogy is a stretched one at best,
and will probably not stand up very well under close examination. But all
that I am suggesting here is that prepositions may have an especially
dynamic relationship with noun endings that they intersect in that they are
both governors of the words they modify. And they are both directional
pointers as well.
Rich Lindeman
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:47 AM
To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
> On Mar 21, 2010, at 9:30 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>> Carl:
>>
>> Of course I wasn't intending to bring theology into the definition of
>> prepositions! But I think the use of terminology like this is helpful (at
>> least to me) in that it makes clear that prepositions are in fact a bit
>> different than count words. I'm not really trying to romanticize these
>> things but rather I am trying to understand some of the underlying
>> dynamics
>> that make prepositions so challenging at times. Yes, prepositions are
>> adverbs, but the reality is that they are just a little a bit different
>> than
>> other adverbs in that they function as pointers of space/time. This adds
>> to
>> their richness and complexity. Other adverbs it seems are more closely
>> related to verbs than nouns. Other adverbs do not interact with
>> understanding of noun case endings.
>
> On the contrary, quite a few adverbs that never become prepositions
> interact
> with undrstandings of noun case endings. See, for example, Smyth
> §§1437-1443
> I think immediately of ISWS with a dative or ALLWS with a genitive.
>
> I might note too that the terms "count" word and "mass" word has more to
> do with types of nouns, although the academic linguists can (and probably
> will) correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:01 AM
>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>> Cc: "Michael Aubrey" <mga318 at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
>>
>>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>> After thinking about it I believe that I have come up with an answer to
>>>> my own questions concerning my frustrations with interpreting
>>>> prepositions. Carl's earlier comments about "count" words helped.
>>>>
>>>> Prepositions are not "count" words. They are sort of the "God" words
>>>> in
>>>> human language. They have no substance and cannot be counted and
>>>> cannot
>>>> be seen. Prepositions are simply pointers of space/time. They are
>>>> very
>>>> much like noun case endings which are also simply pointers of
>>>> space/time.
>>>> This makes them to be much more rich in meaning and also much more
>>>> volatile in meaning than other words that are count words. For we live
>>>> in a world of space and time and all of the actions and events of our
>>>> existence and all of our communications concerning such actions and
>>>> events occur within that space/time world. And when the preposition
>>>> pointers intersect with the other pointers of case endings and then
>>>> when
>>>> they intersect with people and places and events in the real world that
>>>> is when meaning is given to all our count words, the words that we
>>>> really
>>>> think have meaning and substance.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, context is key in determining the meaning of prepositions. But
>>>> I
>>>> am also coming to understand that prepositions by their very nature are
>>>> more flexible and volatile in meaning than all other words. And one
>>>> more
>>>> thing. I am learning that language itself is an imprecise thing. And
>>>> communication is therefore an imprecise thing. It really doesn't
>>>> matter
>>>> so much whether I view prepositions spatially/temporally themselves or
>>>> if
>>>> I happen to view them only interpretively in respect to the words and
>>>> case endings they happen to intersect. Being scripture I want the
>>>> koine
>>>> to be incredibly precise in its communication of God's word. But being
>>>> God, He chooses to speak to us in our human and very imprecise
>>>> language.
>>>
>>> I would be very wary of any attempt to bring theology into the
>>> discussion
>>> of Greek prepositions. -- and in fact, whether or not one holds with a
>>> theological conception of the prepositions, discussion of that notion
>>> lies
>>> outside the parameters of B-Greek discussion. But prepositions are
>>> surely
>>> no more "God" words than any are other kinds of words. They are most
>>> essentially adverbs that qualify verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs.
>>> They have come to have standard functions especially in relation to
>>> verbs
>>> where they qualify adverbially the sense of the verb and in relation to
>>> nouns in distinct cases, where they clarify the inherent semantic force
>>> of
>>> the nominal cases. They are ordinarily very helpful, but there are
>>> occasional instances where they are about as precise as an inarticulate
>>> teenager's "like" -- as in "It's like, you know ... " In Greek ISWS may
>>> mean "just as much" or it may mean "possibly" or "like as not."
>
>
>
---
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