[B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Mon Mar 22 13:34:24 EDT 2010


On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:31 PM, Michael Aubrey wrote:
> Richard,
> 
> It's true: prepositions do govern nouns. Some linguists find it helpful to think of them as transitive adverbs: adverbs that take an object. So in the sense that some verbs (e.g. AKOUW sometimes take a genitive and sometimes take an accusative)

but with clearly distinct senses: genitive of the person or source, accusative of the sound or content ...

> require different case ending does indeed say something about the preposition's semantics, but that's a study that hasn't been done -- if anyone wanted a dissertation topic, it would keep you busy.

Prepositional phrases, "transitive adverbs", etc., etc. After noting a few days back that a "predicate accusative" was also called by the sons of linguists "object complements," I was  slapped on the wrist by Mark Lightman for equivocating. I do sometimes, in my many idle moments of meditations (IMM's), wonder whether it isn't the case that Adam in the Garden of Eden gave everything a name and that the Fall from Grace -- or at least one dimension of it -- might not be understood as the decision that everything could just as well be called by a different name. Certainly the declension that begins in chapter 3 of Genesis climaxes in chapter 10 with the Tower of Babel, after which communication becomes almost hopeless. A rose by any other name may smell the same, but will it be acknowledged by AARS as "the real matroy"?


> 
> But your metaphor distinguishing prepositions from case misses the mark. Prepositions are transitive adverbs and prepositions as phrasal case markers both say something about the function of the words. And the fact that prepositions in many ways replaced the Greek cases over the history of the language is evidence of that.
> 
> I'd suggested reading this article:
> 
> http://email.eva.mpg.de/%7Ehaspelmt/CaseTerminology.pdf

OK, will check. But then there's this little bit from Bill Mounce's blog today:


(http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/typepad/pQHu/~3/-N8Bvta7zqA/christs-death-and-our-justification-rom-425.html)
"Prepositions can be nasty things. Part of the problem is that the meaning of some can be quite fluid, hard to nail down. But the advantage of prepositions is exactly the same; they are fluid and can often mean many different things."

The upshot: Never trust a stray preposition until you see all the stuff that it entails (or precludes, or intercedes for ... ).

;-)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)


> ________________________________
> From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
> To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 6:20:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
> 
> Carl:
> 
> Let me take theological descriptors entirely out and try to explain my 
> thoughts in a different way.
> Prepositions are the adverbial governors for verbs serving(almost like a 
> steering wheel for a car in motion) as directional pointers for verbal 
> action.  In contrast to that,  case endings are the adjectival governors for 
> nouns serving(almost like a traffic signpost attached to a solid object) as 
> directional pointers posted for the driver(subject) of any intersecting 
> verbal action.  And to the observer of traffic around that object,  it seems 
> most fairly clear that the steering column of passing drivers seems to be 
> affected most dynamically by the directions printed on the sign.
> 
> OK... I know full well that the above analogy is a stretched one at best, 
> and will probably not stand up very well under close examination.  But all 
> that I am suggesting here is that prepositions may have an especially 
> dynamic relationship with noun endings that they intersect in that they are 
> both governors of the words they modify. And they are both directional 
> pointers as well.
> 
> Rich Lindeman
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:47 AM
> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 9:30 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>> Carl:
>>> 
>>> Of course I wasn't intending to bring theology into the definition of
>>> prepositions! But I think the use of terminology like this is helpful (at
>>> least to me) in that it makes clear that prepositions are in fact a bit
>>> different than count words.  I'm not really trying to romanticize these
>>> things but rather I am trying to understand some of the underlying 
>>> dynamics
>>> that make prepositions so challenging at times.  Yes, prepositions are
>>> adverbs, but the reality is that they are just a little a bit different 
>>> than
>>> other adverbs in that they function as pointers of space/time.  This adds 
>>> to
>>> their richness and complexity.  Other adverbs it seems are more closely
>>> related to verbs than nouns.  Other adverbs do not interact with
>>> understanding of noun case endings.
>> 
>> On the contrary, quite a few adverbs that never become prepositions 
>> interact
>> with undrstandings of noun case endings. See, for example, Smyth 
>> §§1437-1443
>> I think immediately of ISWS with a dative or ALLWS with a genitive.
>> 
>> I might note too that the terms "count" word and "mass" word has more to
>> do with types of nouns, although the academic linguists can (and probably
>> will) correct me if I'm wrong.
>> 
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:01 AM
>>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>> Cc: "Michael Aubrey" <mga318 at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Semantic Range of Prepositions
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>>> After thinking about it I believe that I have come up with an answer to
>>>>> my own questions concerning my frustrations with interpreting
>>>>> prepositions.  Carl's earlier comments about "count" words helped.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Prepositions are not "count" words.  They are sort of the "God" words 
>>>>> in
>>>>> human language.  They have no substance and cannot be counted and 
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> be seen.  Prepositions are simply pointers of space/time.  They are 
>>>>> very
>>>>> much like noun case endings which are also simply pointers of 
>>>>> space/time.
>>>>> This makes them to be much more rich in meaning and also much more
>>>>> volatile in meaning than other words that are count words.  For we live
>>>>> in a world of space and time and all of the actions and events of our
>>>>> existence and all of our communications concerning such actions and
>>>>> events occur within that space/time world.  And when the preposition
>>>>> pointers intersect with the other pointers of case endings and then 
>>>>> when
>>>>> they intersect with people and places and events in the real world that
>>>>> is when meaning is given to all our count words, the words that we 
>>>>> really
>>>>> think have meaning and substance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So yes, context is key in determining the meaning of prepositions. But 
>>>>> I
>>>>> am also coming to understand that prepositions by their very nature are
>>>>> more flexible and volatile in meaning than all other words.  And one 
>>>>> more
>>>>> thing.  I am learning that language itself is an imprecise thing. And
>>>>> communication is therefore an imprecise thing.  It really doesn't 
>>>>> matter
>>>>> so much whether I view prepositions spatially/temporally themselves or 
>>>>> if
>>>>> I happen to view them only interpretively in respect to the words and
>>>>> case endings they happen to intersect.  Being scripture I want the 
>>>>> koine
>>>>> to be incredibly precise in its communication of God's word. But being
>>>>> God, He chooses to speak to us in our human and very imprecise 
>>>>> language.
>>>> 
>>>> I would be very wary of any attempt to bring theology into the 
>>>> discussion
>>>> of Greek prepositions. -- and in fact, whether or not one holds with a
>>>> theological conception of the prepositions, discussion of that notion 
>>>> lies
>>>> outside the parameters of B-Greek discussion.  But prepositions are 
>>>> surely
>>>> no more "God" words than any are other kinds of words. They are most
>>>> essentially adverbs that qualify verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs.
>>>> They have come to have standard functions especially in relation to 
>>>> verbs
>>>> where they qualify adverbially the sense of the verb and in relation to
>>>> nouns in distinct cases, where they clarify the inherent semantic force 
>>>> of
>>>> the nominal cases. They are ordinarily very helpful, but there are
>>>> occasional instances where they are about as precise as an inarticulate
>>>> teenager's "like" -- as in "It's like, you know ... " In Greek ISWS may
>>>> mean "just as much" or it may mean "possibly" or "like as not."









More information about the B-Greek mailing list