[B-Greek] Ephesians 2:3

Eric Inman eric-inman at comcast.net
Tue Mar 23 08:10:54 EDT 2010


Does anyone see a connection between this discussion and the one on being born again? "Son of x" seems to refer to someone's inherent nature from birth from their parents. How is that nature changed or replaced? By being born again (or from above), thus obtaining a new (higher) nature from a new (higher) source. There seems to be a semantic theme here involving several words and idioms.

When "mother of all battles" struck our ears in an odd way my guess was that in its original language it was probably no more notable than the use of "mother" in motherboard (of a computer) or mother lode, "mother of x" meaning "chief or main x". In Indonesian it's used that way. For example a capital city is referred to as ibukota (mother city).

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:06 AM
To: George Somsel; rhutchin at aol.com
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 2:3

On Mar 22, 2010, at 9:53 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

> The one I always think of is Jn 17.12
> ὅτε ἤμην μετʼ αὐτῶν ἐγὼ ἐτήρουν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, καὶ ἐφύλαξα, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἐξ αὐτῶν ἀπώλετο εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ. 
> hOTE HMHN MET' AUTWN EGW ETHROUN AUTOUS EN TWi ONOMATI SOU hWi DEDWKAS 
> MOI, KAI EFULACA, KAI OUDEIS EC AUTWN APWLETO EI MH hO hUIOS THS 
> APWLEIAS, hINA hH GRAFH PLHRWQHi

This is really a translation question, one that perhaps should go over to B-Translation, which I why I cc Wayne Leman: Is a phrase like "Son of Perdition" or "Sons of Thunder" really natural English or doesn't it always have an exotic alien flavor to it? I think of such phrases from our not-so-distant cultural history like "Mother of all battles" -- which mothered a slew of freshly-coined clichés, or "Son of Sam." The old "son of a gun" is probably altogether different. But somehow these expressions all do seem to me unnatural English.

> ________________________________
> From: walt seevers <lws39 at juno.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 6:04:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 2:3
> 
> Mark 3:17
> êáὶ ἸÜêùâïí ôὸí ôïῦ Æåâåäáßïõ êáὶ ἸùÜííçí ôὸí ἀäåëöὸí ôïῦ Ἰáêþâïõ, êáὶ 
> ἐðÝèçêåí áὐôïῖò ὀíüìáôá ÂïáíçñãÝò, ὅ ἐóôéí õἱïὶ âñïíôῆò· KAI IAKWBON 
> TON TOU ZEBEDAIOU KAI IWANNHN TON ADELFON TOU IAKWBOU KAI EPEQHKEN AUTOIS ONOMATA BOANHRYES O ESTIN UIOI BRONTHS These two had wanted to call fire down on some people. So they are referred to  as UIOI BRONTHS.  In this context  the construction would indicate a quality that they possessed. This is the only example I can think of offhand. There are a great deal more, I'm sure.
> Walt Seevers
> 
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: rhutchin at aol.com
> 
> To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 2:3
> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:26:49 -0400
> 
> OK, I see the basic rationale.  Son of iniquity means a bad guy.
> 
> Thus, children of wrath can mean the objects of God's wrath.  The lost are the objects of God's wrath.  I can see that.  So, v 4, But God...even when we were the objects of His wrath...
> 
> But, would we say that being the object of God's wrath is, "By nature."  It appears to me that FUSEI could just as easily extend the description of the lost that we read earlier in this verse perhaps meaning that their nature is that of wrath (or hate) as opposed to love (per the nature of God).  Then, v 4, But God...even when we hated Him...  As son of iniquity refers to a person ruled by sin, could not children of wrath refer to people ruled by wrath (wrath is their nature)?  Is a literal rendering necessarily misleading in this case?
> 
> Can a grammatical analysis sort this out or does it end up being one person's exegetical position against another's?

That, for better or for worse, is a good question: there might indeed be significantly different interpretations of what this phrasing implies in terms of one's theological and hermeneutical preferences. That, of course, is something we don't want to get into. But, it strikes me that we do use in English expressions that seem very comparable to TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS, e.g. "a natural-born hell-raiser", i.e. a person who's natural inclination seems to be to cause trouble on a major scale. Classical Greek uses GENNAIOS/A/ON that way and the Platonic term GENNAION YEUDOS, often translated "noble life" seems rather to mean "a lie to end all lies" or "a falsehood that could never be called anything but a falsehood." Perhaps FUSEI in the expression HMEQA TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS could be conveyed by an English expressin such as "we really were hopeless losers." I note that Eugene Peterson's Message conveys the sense of Eph 2:3 along those lines and uses natural English: "We all did it, all of us doing what we felt like doing, when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat. It’s a wonder God didn’t lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us."

We can always translate TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS literally, but Roger Hutchinson's question is a good one, I think. When we do translate the phrase literally, are we conveying what it really intends?

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



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