[B-Greek] when syntax doesn't get you there -- Eph 4:9b

Rod Rogers rngrogers at embarqmail.com
Mon Mar 29 19:24:42 EDT 2010


I'm glad to see this response, Elizabeth. It seems to me that 
Hoehner has been rebuked over using Wallace and Wallace rebuked 
because he is too thorough (To many nuances?). To say that 
Hoehner has forgot or abandoned historical/conceptual analysis is 
just not true. Just because Hoehner does not address 
historical/cultural facts on page 533 when he discusses grammar 
says nothing about his knowledge of such things. What about pages 
78 - 96?

Harold Hoehner, Dan Wallace, John Grassmick all (TEXAS) men hold 
to the same "principles and practice of Greek Exegesis", I think 
one of them even wrote on the subject. According to Grassmick 
there are at least 8 aspect to correct exegesis. Grassmick on 
page 11 that:

B. The grammatical-historical-contextual method of interpretation

    1. Definition of grammatical-historical-contextual 
interpretation

        This approach seeks the meaning of a segment of Scripture 
as required by the laws of grammar and literary form, the facts 
of history, and the framework of context. it is the best approach 
because there are the features the interpreter must share with 
the author in order to determine his meaning.

I'm sorry but historical context does not answer the question of 
how to translate KATEBH EIS TA KATWTERA [MERH] THS GHS. 
Historical context does give insight into why the writer might 
have used certain words and give us insight as to word play but 
you should not be allowed to make exegesis = "historical 
analysis". It is only a part of the tools used to determine the 
original intent of the text.

As far as praising C. E. Arnold and the "framework" done that 
illumines this text, I personally understand the historical 
context of Ephesus far better by reading Acts chapter 19. I don't 
expect the B-Greek community to rave over Harold Hoehner's 
Ephesian commentary but I do think he has blessed the Christian 
community with it. As for Dan Wallace's GGBB I think some people 
on this list fail to comprehend the audience Mr. Wallace wrote 
his grammar for. I don't think it offends him (Dan) at all that 
Carl Conrad thinks the way he does about his grammar. Wallace 
wrote his grammar for those who have completed first year Greek 
and need to complete their understanding of Greek Grammar, not 
for Ph. D's. In that respect I believe he has done an admiral 
job. I don't agree with everything in his grammar and have said 
so on this list but I have used it and profited from it.

I guess I'm ready for real Greek Grammar and exegesis now. Let's 
move C. E. Arnold to another list.

rod rogers
bargersville, in






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] when syntax doesn't get you there -- Eph 
4:9b


>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:36 AM, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> For the ancient Christian preachers like Paul NOT to address 
>> Christ's victory over death in terms of that world would be 
>> simply astounding.
>
> Thank you Yancy and Bryant for your contributions.
>
> After a fresh look a Hoenher's treatment, I agree with most of 
> what he says. I agree that the THS GHS is probably partitive. 
> However, I think the early church got this one right and will 
> continue to hold that the referent of KATEBH EIS TA KATWTERA 
> [MERH] THS GHS is a decent into the underworld since C.E. 
> Arnold makes an excellent case for this in terms of the 
> cultural presuppositions of the target audience.
>
> Why all the fuss and bother of this? Primarily it is a matter 
> of the order in which we do things. IMO syntax analysis is not 
> primary.  It doesn't come first. By the time I get to syntax 
> analysis the meaning of the text has already been more or less 
> determined by constructing a semantic representation of the 
> situation. If you want this boiled down into a formula, meaning 
> precedes form. You don't find the meaning by fussing about the 
> form of the text.
>
> Elizabeth Kline





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