[B-Greek] when syntax doesn't get you there -- Eph 4:9b
Rod Rogers
rngrogers at embarqmail.com
Mon Mar 29 19:24:42 EDT 2010
I'm glad to see this response, Elizabeth. It seems to me that
Hoehner has been rebuked over using Wallace and Wallace rebuked
because he is too thorough (To many nuances?). To say that
Hoehner has forgot or abandoned historical/conceptual analysis is
just not true. Just because Hoehner does not address
historical/cultural facts on page 533 when he discusses grammar
says nothing about his knowledge of such things. What about pages
78 - 96?
Harold Hoehner, Dan Wallace, John Grassmick all (TEXAS) men hold
to the same "principles and practice of Greek Exegesis", I think
one of them even wrote on the subject. According to Grassmick
there are at least 8 aspect to correct exegesis. Grassmick on
page 11 that:
B. The grammatical-historical-contextual method of interpretation
1. Definition of grammatical-historical-contextual
interpretation
This approach seeks the meaning of a segment of Scripture
as required by the laws of grammar and literary form, the facts
of history, and the framework of context. it is the best approach
because there are the features the interpreter must share with
the author in order to determine his meaning.
I'm sorry but historical context does not answer the question of
how to translate KATEBH EIS TA KATWTERA [MERH] THS GHS.
Historical context does give insight into why the writer might
have used certain words and give us insight as to word play but
you should not be allowed to make exegesis = "historical
analysis". It is only a part of the tools used to determine the
original intent of the text.
As far as praising C. E. Arnold and the "framework" done that
illumines this text, I personally understand the historical
context of Ephesus far better by reading Acts chapter 19. I don't
expect the B-Greek community to rave over Harold Hoehner's
Ephesian commentary but I do think he has blessed the Christian
community with it. As for Dan Wallace's GGBB I think some people
on this list fail to comprehend the audience Mr. Wallace wrote
his grammar for. I don't think it offends him (Dan) at all that
Carl Conrad thinks the way he does about his grammar. Wallace
wrote his grammar for those who have completed first year Greek
and need to complete their understanding of Greek Grammar, not
for Ph. D's. In that respect I believe he has done an admiral
job. I don't agree with everything in his grammar and have said
so on this list but I have used it and profited from it.
I guess I'm ready for real Greek Grammar and exegesis now. Let's
move C. E. Arnold to another list.
rod rogers
bargersville, in
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] when syntax doesn't get you there -- Eph
4:9b
>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:36 AM, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> For the ancient Christian preachers like Paul NOT to address
>> Christ's victory over death in terms of that world would be
>> simply astounding.
>
> Thank you Yancy and Bryant for your contributions.
>
> After a fresh look a Hoenher's treatment, I agree with most of
> what he says. I agree that the THS GHS is probably partitive.
> However, I think the early church got this one right and will
> continue to hold that the referent of KATEBH EIS TA KATWTERA
> [MERH] THS GHS is a decent into the underworld since C.E.
> Arnold makes an excellent case for this in terms of the
> cultural presuppositions of the target audience.
>
> Why all the fuss and bother of this? Primarily it is a matter
> of the order in which we do things. IMO syntax analysis is not
> primary. It doesn't come first. By the time I get to syntax
> analysis the meaning of the text has already been more or less
> determined by constructing a semantic representation of the
> situation. If you want this boiled down into a formula, meaning
> precedes form. You don't find the meaning by fussing about the
> form of the text.
>
> Elizabeth Kline
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