[B-Greek] e: Ephesians 2:3 - TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS

Richard Lindeman oblchurch at msn.com
Tue Mar 30 15:51:39 EDT 2010


EN hOIS KAI hHMEIS PANTES ANESTRAFHMEN POTE EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS THS SARKOS
hHMWN POIOUNTES TA QELHMATA THS SARKOS KAI TWN DIANOIWN, KAI HMEQA TEKNA
FUSEI ORGHS hWS KAI hOI LOIPOI

It¹s another one of those form/function things. A noun in the dative case
(form) seems to lend itself well for either adjectival or adverbial usage
(function)?? 
It causes me to wonder which is the more prevalent usage for dative nouns
(adjectival or adverbial function).  It also causes me to wonder about
dative case usage here. If FUSEI is functioning as an adverb the dative case
usage vanishes entirely.  I don¹t think that makes sense. Actually, I am
having trouble seeing FUSEI as being construed in any way with the verb.
Shouldn¹t it would remain adjectival either in relation to ³We², the subject
of HMEQA or in relation to TEKNA?

Rich Lindeman


> 
> Well, it may well be that Mark is right about what the author is saying here
> about TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS. But I continue to be bothered by the
> linguistic formulation wherein the dative noun appears to be used as
> if adjectivally with the noun phrase TEKNA ORGHS.
> 
> C'est bon, c'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre! It was said.
> 
> I say, TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS seems intelligible enough, but is it
> acceptable Greek?
> 
> To which the question is asked: "What do YOU know about what's
> acceptable Greek?"
> 
> To which I reply: if you have to think twice about what the phrase
> you read/hear means, there's more than meets the eye/ear in it.
> 
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
>> --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 2:3 - TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS
>> To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org, rhutchin at aol.com
>> Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 12:13 PM
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 28, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>>> 
>>> --- On Sun, 3/28/10, rhutchin at aol.com <rhutchin at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> <For the following phrases:
>>> 
>>> ...TEKNA FUSEI hORGHS...
>>> 
>>> ...FUSEI TEKNA hORGHS...
>>> 
>>> ...TEKNA hORGHS FUSEI...
>> 
>> Quibble: the word is ORGHS: there's no rough breathing on this noun.
>> 
>>> Does the ordering of the words change how one
>>>   might understand what the writer means to say
>>> or how a person might translate the phrase?>
>>> 
>>> No,  Not only is Greek word order flexible enough
>>> to cover all three arrangements with little or no difference
>>> in meaning, it is MORE than flexible enough to do this.
>>> It's flexible enough, I mean, to do even MORE than this.
>> 
>> I'm not so sure about this one.
>> 
>> Text: 
>> Eph. 2:3 ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ?? ???? ?????????? ???
>> ?????? ???? ????????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????????, ??? ?????
>> ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???????
>> [EN hOIS KAI hHMEIS PANTES ANESTRAFHMEN POTE EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS THS SARKOS
>> hHMWN POIOUNTES TA QELHMATA THS SARKOS KAI TWN DIANOIWN, KAI HMEQA TEKNA
>> FUSEI ORGHS hWS KAI hOI LOIPOI?]
>> 
>> The earlier discussion on this verse focused altogether upon the phase TEKNA
>> ORGHS. I don't think anything was said about FUSEI here, and as I think about
>> it, its position in the text between TEKNA and ORGHS seems less than
>> transparent to me. I would have supposed that FUSEI construes with HMEQA or
>> else with the whole clause HMEQA TEKNA ORGHS. The positioning of FUSEI in our
>> text between TEKNA and ORGHS strikes me as strange, as I don't really see how
>> the dative noun can construe with either the nominative or the genitive noun,
>> as if it were adjectival ("natural children of wrath"). I really think the
>> sense in the larger context must be: "we really were, in our inmost essence,
>> condemned."
>> 
>> Mark may be right, claiming that any of Roger's suggested word-orders is as
>> good as any other. But I'm not convinced. Does anyone think that FUSEI is
>> intended by the author to be construed with the noun phrase TEKNA ORGHS
>> rather than with the verb of the clause?
>> 
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 




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