[B-Greek] 1 Tim4:10

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri May 7 01:20:33 EDT 2010


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yancy Smith" <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 6. maj 2010 20:46
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Tim4:10


> Tony Pope said:
>>I haven't read Poythress's paper (and unfortunately Rick's links don't work 
>>for me), but having read
> Skeat's paper I don't see that it can be so easily dismissed as Iver and Yancy 
> seem to do. Skeat
> points out that the sense of MALISTA he exemplifies is one that would not be 
> expected in formal
> prose but is exactly the kind of locution that would be found in a dictated 
> letter. He gives four
> examples from papyri and one from a speech.
> [Yancy Smith] A minor special lexical use of MALISTA as "namely, that is," 
> etc. is established for Egyptian-Greek. But, it is very rare in the more than 
> 100 appearances of MALISTA.

IL: Who established this and in which dictionary is it described?
In certain contexts, e.g. with numbers and specification of locations, MALISTA 
may take on a special sense, but the general sense is a speciel focus on a 
subgroup or part of a whole that has already been mentioned or is implied in the 
context.

>
> καὶ ἀγόρασον ἡμῖν εἰς ἀποστολὴν τοῖς Ἰσιείοις οἷς ἔχομεν συνήθειαν πέμπειν, 
> μάλιστα τοῖς
> στρατηγοῖς [orthography regularized]
> KAI AGORASON hHMIN EIS APOSTOLHN TOIS ISIEIOIS hOIS ECOMEN SUNHQEIAN PEMPEIN, 
> MALISTA TOIS
> STRATHGOIS
> Letter #118 in Fayum Towns and their papyri, ed Grenfell & Hunt 1900
> Editors' tr.: "Buy us some presents for the Isis festival for the persons we 
> are accustomed to send
> to, especially the
> strategi" [Skeat: in other words, the strategi]
> [Yancy Smith] This one is debatable.

IL: Skeat is here imposing his own translation against the editors. I don't see 
justification for it, since the army commanders are apparently a subgroup of a 
more general group.

> πᾶν νόμισμα προσίεσθαι πλὴν μάλιστα παρατύπου καὶ κιβδήλου
> PAN NOMISMA PROSIESQAI PLHN MALISTA PARATUPOU KAI KIBDHLOU
> P. Oxy 1411
> Edd: "to accept and exchange all coin except the absolutely spurious and 
> counterfeit" [Skeat:
> except, that is,
> anything forged or fraudulent]
> [Yancy Smith] PLHN MALISTA is different because PLHN as a adverbial conjuction 
> encodes the discourse instruction, "what comes after is an exception to what 
> comes before." Here MALISTA could also mean "of course."

IL: The spurious and counterfeit coins are a subgroup of coins in general, not 
an identification of them. Here they are singled out for exclusion by the PLHN. 
He continues to impose his "that is" even though it does not fit in a single 
example.

>
>>καὶ περὶ τούτου η..ατο ὁ μεικρὸς Π[α]γένης ὥς τινων π<ε>ινωντων ἐν τῳ ἐποικίῳ 
>>μάλιστα
> Λου[..]υ. μάθε οὖν καὶ ποίησον α[ὐτο]ῖς δοθῆναι ὑπὸ Βησαρίωνος εἰς διατροφὰς 
> ὀλίγα
> σιτάρια ἐπιδείξας αὐτῷ τὰ γράμματά μου.
> KAI PERI TOUTOU H..ATO hO MEIKROS PAGENHS hWS TINWN PEINWNTWN EN TWi EPOIKIWi 
> MALISTA
> LOU..U. MAQE OUN KAI POIHSON AUTOIS DOQHNAI hUPO BHSARIWNOS EIS DIATROFAS 
> OLIGA
> SITARIA EPIDEIXAS AUTWi TA GRAMMATA MOU.
> P. Oxy 3253, ll. 14-21
> Edd: "Also about this little Pagenes [Skeat: Pagenes the younger] ... that 
> some were going hungry,
> especially in the
> settlement of Lu..s. Find out and see to it that a little grain is given them 
> for food by Besarion,
> showing him
> my letters [Skeat: this letter of mine]."  [Skeat: the edd. recognize in a 
> comment that their tr.
> does not suit the
> position of MALISTA, and Skeat proposes "in the settlement, I mean Lou..u."]
> [Yancy Smith] This is a good example, solid.

This is unclear to me. What is behind the LOU..U?  "Of those who are hungry in 
the village, especially of LU..."
I am not sure that this mysterious LU... is the name of a village. It could 
refer to some people within the village related to or known by the writer of the 
letter. They are then referred to by AUTOIS. Does the wider context of the 
citation clarify it?

>
> ἔτι μὴν καὶ τῶν καταλελιμμένων μοι μάλιστα ὑπ’ αὐτοῦ τοῦ πατρὸς ὑπαρχόντων ὑπὸ
> βιαίων καὶ δυναστῶν παρανόμως κρατηθέντων,
> ETI MHN KAI TWN KATALELIMMENWN MOI MALISTA hUP' AUTOU TOU PATROS hUPARCONTWN 
> hUPO
> BIAIWN KAI DUNASTWN PARANOMWS KRATHQENTWN
> P. Oxy 3302
> Edd: "and when the property left to me, especially that left to me by my 
> father, was illegally
> detained by violent
> and influential persons" [Skeat: when the property left to me -- in fact by my 
> own father -- was
> illegally
> detained ...]
> [Yancy Smith] MALISTA here means "especially," not because it is referring to 
> a different class of goods, but that the fact that his goods could be 
> considered more than goods left to him by anyone. They were left to him by his 
> father.  It signals the egregiousness of the crime. To translate "that is" 
> would not be appropriate. Skeat appropriately intensifies by translating "in 
> fact."
-----------
IL: The same part whole relationship with focus on that part left by his father.

>
>>μετεστειλάμεθά σου τὴν περιφάνειαν ὥστε καὶ τοῖς βασιλικοῖς ὑπερετῆσαι 
>>προστάγμασι καὶ
> τοῖς θεοῖς τὴν προσήκουσαν θυσίαν προσενεγκεῖν, μάλιστα τῷ πατρὶ θεῶν τῷ 
> μεγάλῳ Διί,
> Ἀπόλλωνί τε καὶ τῇ φίλῃ παρθένῳ Ἀρτέμιδι.
> METESTEILAMEQA SOU THN PERIFANEIAN hWSTE KAI TOIS BASILIKOIS hUPERETHSAI 
> PROSTAGMASI KAI
> TOIS QEOIS THN PROSHKOUSAN QUSIAN PROSENEGKEIN, MALISTA TWi PATRI QEWN TWi 
> MEGALWi DII,
> APOLLWNI TE KAI THi FILhi PARQENWi ARTEMIDI.
> Acts of St Eudoxius, PG 115, 624C, speech of the prefect to the martyr.
> Skeat: MALISTA specifies which deities are meant.
> [Yancy Smith] This is another case of undertranslation, because "to make 
> offerings to TOIS QEOIS" is another way of saying to practice EUSEBEIA. That 
> the three gods Zeus, Apollo and Artemis are mentioned is an intensification of 
> the EUSEBEIA, not a mere specification of gods.
>

IL: Are these three mentioned gods not a part of all gods, being singled out for 
attention?
Is it not that there is a big step from "especially" to "that is", but it is 
still an unjustified step.
It seems quite clear that Skeat has failed to prove the sense he was hunting for 
in order to impose a different sense on selected examples in the NT.

> Skeat applies his proposal to three passages in the pastoral epistles: 2 Tim 
> 4.13, where Paul's
> point is not that he had a large library in Troas of which Timothy should be 
> sure to bring at least
> the parchments. Rather, the MEMBRANA were notebooks in codex form (as others 
> have proposed) and that
> was the particular kind of BIBLIA that Paul meant when he used the word. 
> (Precisely what the items
> were may be arguable but the scenario is still reasonable, in my view.)
----------------
IL: Why not accept the agreed sense of parchments, i.e. writing material made 
from animal skin as opposed to the CARTHS (papyrus sheet)? MEMBRANA is a loan 
word from Latin, so I am sure Carl could educate us on its meaning. BIBLIA is a 
general word for scrolls, books etc. Whether in sheet, scroll or codex form is 
unknown and irrelevant. It is my understanding that parchments were much more 
expensive that papyrus, so they would not be used as notebooks. No one is 
suggesting a large library, but Paul was a learned man who would have a 
considerable personal library MALISTA of the LXX which it would be convenient to 
keep at strategic places where he and his coworkers would often pass through. 
There is nothing in the context that supports any unusual sense of MALISTA. But 
if Timothy was not able to bring all Paul's book left there, at least he should 
make sure to bring the most valuable or important ones, the MEMBRANA.

Iver Larsen 




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