[B-Greek] TI hUMIN DOKEI?

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun May 30 20:18:04 EDT 2010


On May 30, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> Same issue comes up with EOIKA, -AS, -E
> 
> L.S. Interm.	2. impers.,  ἔοικε >>EOIKE<< it seems;   ὡς ἔοικε >>hWS EOIKE<< as it seems,  Id., etc.;  ὡς ἔοικε >>hWS EOIKE<< used to modify a statement, probably, I believe,  Plat.:—so also personal,  ὡς ἔοικας >>hWS EOIKAS<< Soph. 
> 
> 
> It can be impersonal "it seems" or personal "you seem". Translators often transform the later into "I think you are" rather than "you seem to me" which sounds slightly stilted to some ears.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> James 1:6 αἰτείτω δὲ ἐν πίστει μηδὲν διακρινόμενος· ὁ γὰρ διακρινόμενος ἔοικεν κλύδωνι θαλάσσης ἀνεμιζομένῳ καὶ ῥιπιζομένῳ >>AITEITW DE EN PISTEI MHDEN DIAKRINOMENOS· hO GAR DIAKRINOMENOS EOIKEN KLUDWNI QALASSHS ANEMIZOMENWi KAI hRIPIZOMENWi<<. 
> 
> Personal or impersonal?  Not any particular person but syntactically it is personal since there is a subject hO DIAKRINOMENOS.
> 
> another from James:
> 
> James 1:23 ὅτι εἴ τις ἀκροατὴς λόγου ἐστὶν καὶ οὐ ποιητής, οὗτος ἔοικεν ἀνδρὶ κατανοοῦντι τὸ πρόσωπον τῆς γενέσεως αὐτοῦ ἐν ἐσόπτρῳ >>hOTI EI TIS AKROATHS LOGOU ESTIN KAI OU POIHTHS, hOUTOS EOIKEN ANDRI KATANOOUNTI TO PROSWPON THS GENESEWS AUTOU EN ESOPTRWi<<·

EOIKE in the sense "seems" or "seems likely" is secondary and equivalent to the older usage of the neuter sg. of the pf. ptc. with explicit or implicit ESTIN: EIKOS ESTIN, "it is likely, probable; it seems to be the case," usually followed by accusative and infinitive construction.
I rather think that these Biblical citations don't belong to this sense but rather to the primary sense of EOIKA with dative, "be like"

James 1:6 "is like a sea-wave driven and blown by the wind"
James 1:28 "is like a man looking in the mirror at the face he was born with"

LSJ: to be like, look like, c. dat.
BDAG: ἔοικα (Hom. et al.; in the mng. ‘seem’ also Job 6:3, 25; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 175; Just., Tat.) old pf. of εἴκω be like, resemble, τινί someone or someth. (Hes., fgm. 263 Rz. ποταμῷ ῥέοντι ἐοικώς) κλύδωνι θαλάσσης Js 1:6. ἀνδρί vs. 23.—DELG. M-M.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

> Sophocles Trag., Electra  
> Line 1048
> {ΧΡ.} Φρονεῖν ἔοικας οὐδὲν ὧν ἐγὼ λέγω.
> You pay no attention to anything I say. 
> [an attempt at literal:] you seem to ignore (mind nothing) of what I say. 
> [literal here is nearly impossible; as Sophocles goes this is an easy line. In tragedy you forget literal, it doesn't exist.] 
> 
> 1045
> {ΗΛ.} Καὶ μὴν ποήσω γ', οὐδὲν ἐκπλαγεῖσά σε.
> {ΧΡ.} Καὶ τοῦτ' ἀληθές, οὐδὲ βουλεύσῃ πάλιν;
> {ΗΛ.} Βουλῆς γὰρ οὐδέν ἐστιν ἔχθιον κακῆς.
> {ΧΡ.} Φρονεῖν ἔοικας οὐδὲν ὧν ἐγὼ λέγω.
> {ΗΛ.} Πάλαι δέδοκται ταῦτα κοὐ νεωστί μοι. 
> 
> 1045
> {HL.} KAI MHN POHSW G', OUDEN EKPLAGEISA SE.
> {CR.} KAI TOUT' ALHQES, OUDE BOULEUSHi PALIN;
> {HL.} BOULHS GAR OUDEN ESTIN ECQION KAKHS.
> {CR.} FRONEIN EOIKAS OUDEN hWN EGW LEGW.
> {HL.} PALAI DEDOKTAI TAUTA KOU) NEWSTI MOI. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 29, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 28, 2010, at 10:38 PM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
>> 
>>> On lauantai 29 toukokuu 2010, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On May 28, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> TI hUMIN DOKEI?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The idiom (quote above) appears in a different variant OU DOKW SOI found 32 
>>> places in TLG (but not in NT) or is this a different idiom.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> 		4. impers.,  δοκεῖμοι >>DOKEIMOI<< much in the same sense as  δοκῶ 
>>> μοι >>DOKW MOI<< (supr. 1. 3), it seems to me, meseems, methinks
>>> 
>>> The intended sense was by analogy (MOI->hUMIN) from the above.
>> 
>> yes, as used in Gsp Matt:
>> 
>> Matt. 18:12 Τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; ἐὰν γένηταί τινι ἀνθρώπῳ ἑκατὸν πρόβατα καὶ πλανηθῇ ἓν ἐξ αὐτῶν, οὐχὶ ἀφήσει τὰ ἐνενήκοντα ἐννέα ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη καὶ πορευθεὶς ζητεῖ τὸ πλανώμενον >>TI hUMIN DOKEI; EAN GENHTAI TINI ANQRWPWi hEKATON PROBATA KAI PLANHQHi hEN EX AUTWN, OUCI AFHSEI TA ENENHKONTA ENNEA EPI TA ORH KAI POREUQEIS ZHTEI TO PLANWMENON<<; 
>> 
>> Matt. 22:42 λέγων· τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ περὶ τοῦ χριστοῦ; τίνος υἱός ἐστιν; λέγουσιν αὐτῷ· τοῦ Δαυίδ >>LEGWN· TI hUMIN DOKEI PERI TOU CRISTOU; TINOS hUIOS ESTIN; LEGOUSIN AUTWi· TOU DAUID<<. 
>> 
>> Matt. 26:66 τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; οἱ δὲ ἀποκριθέντες εἶπαν· ἔνοχος θανάτου ἐστίν >>TI hUMIN DOKEI; hOI DE APOKRIQENTES EIPAN· ENOCOS QANATOU ESTIN<<. 
>> 
>> but the switch to DOKW with SOI in S.El. 1041 seems to mean something different. The verb DOKW is not impresonal since we need an agent of speech for LEGEIN, or perhaps the agent is just assumed, provided from the open scenario. 
>> 
>> S.El. 1041
>>> OU DOKW SOI TAUTA SUN DIKHi LEGEIN;
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 3.  δοκῶ μοι >>DOKW MOI<< in Att., just like  δοκεῖ μοι >>DOKEI MOI<<, as Lat. videor mihi for videtur mihi, I seem to myself, methinks,  c. inf., Hdt., etc.; also, I am determined, resolved,  c. inf., Ar.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> The idiom (quote above) appears in a different variant DOKW SOI found 32 places in TLG (but not in NT) or is this a different idiom.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sophocles Trag., Electra
>>> Line 1041
>>> 
>>> 
>>> {ΗΛ.} Τῷ σῷ δικαίῳ δῆτ' ἐπισπέσθαι με δεῖ;
>>> {ΧΡ.} Ὅταν γὰρ εὖ φρονῇς, τόθ' ἡγήσῃ σὺ νῷν.
>>> {ΗΛ.} Ἦ δεινὸν εὖ λέγουσαν ἐξαμαρτάνειν.
>>> {ΧΡ.} Εἴρηκας ὀρθῶς ᾧ σὺ πρόσκεισαι κακῷ.
>>> {ΗΛ.} Τί δ'; οὐ δοκῶ σοι ταῦτα σὺν δίκῃ λέγειν;
>>> {ΧΡ.} Ἀλλ' ἔστιν ἔνθα χἠ δίκη βλάβην φέρει. 
>>> 
>>> Sophocles Trag., Electra
>>> Line 1041
>>> 
>>> 
>>> {HL.} TWi SWi DIKAIWi DHT' EPISPESQAI ME DEI;
>>> {CR.} hOTAN GAR EU FRONHiS, TOQ' hHGHSHi SU NWiN.
>>> {HL.} H DEINON EU LEGOUSAN EXAMARTANEIN.
>>> {CR.} EIRHKAS ORQWS hWi SU PROSKEISAI KAKWi.
>>> {HL.} TI D'; OU DOKW SOI TAUTA SUN DIKHi LEGEIN;
>>> {CR.} ALL' ESTIN ENQA CH) DIKH BLABHN FEREI. 
>>> 
>>> LS intermediate  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 3.  δοκῶ μοι >>DOKW MOI<< in Att., just like  δοκεῖ μοι >>DOKEI MOI<<, as Lat. videor mihi for videtur mihi, I seem to myself, methinks,  c. inf., Hdt., etc.; also, I am determined, resolved,  c. inf., Ar. 
>>> 		4. c. inf., also, to seem  or pretend  to be doing, Lat. simulo,  or with a negat. to seem  or pretend  not to be doing, Lat. dissimulo;   ἤκουσά του λέγοντος, οὐ δοκῶν κλύειν >>HKOUSA TOU LEGONTOS, OU DOKWN KLUEIN<< Eur. 
>>> 	II >>II<<. = videor, to seem  to one,  δοκέεις δέ μοι οὐκ ἀπινύσσειν >>DOKEEIS DE MOI OUK APINUSSEIN<< Od., etc. 
>>> 		2. absol. to seem,  as opp. to reality,   οὐ δοκεῖν, ἀλλ’ εἶναι θέλει >>OU DOKEIN, ALL' EINAI QELEI<< Aesch. 
>>> 		3. to seem good,  Lat. placere,   εἰ δοκεῖ σοι ταῦτα >>EI DOKEI SOI TAUTA<< Id. 
>>> 		4. impers.,  δοκεῖμοι >>DOKEIMOI<< much in the same sense as  δοκῶ μοι >>DOKW MOI<< (supr. 1. 3), it seems to me, meseems, methinks,   ὥς μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι ἄριστα >>hWS MOI DOKEI EINAI ARISTA<< Il., etc.:—in decrees and the like,  ἔδοξε τῇ βουλῇ >>EDOXE THi BOULHi<<, placuit senatui,  Ar., Thuc., etc.;  τὸ δόξαν >>TO DOXAN<< the decree,  Hdt.;  τὰ δόξαντα >>TA DOXANTA<< Soph.;  παρὰ τὸ δοκοῦν ἡμῖν >>PARA TO DOKOUN hHMIN<< Thuc.:—so in Pass.,  δέδοκται >>DEDOKTAI<<, Lat. visum est,  Hdt., Trag., etc. 
>>> 			b. acc. absol.  δόξαν >>DOXAN<<, when it was decreed  or resolved,   δόξαν αὐτοῖς ὥστε διαναυμαχεῖν >>DOXAN AUTOIS hWSTE DIANAUMACEIN<< (i.e.  ὅτε ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς >>hOTE EDOXEN AUTOIS<<) Thuc.; so,  δεδογμένον αὐτοῖς >>DEDOGMENON AUTOIS<< Id. 
>> 
>> Elizabeth Kline







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