[B-Greek] Best Practices for Teaching/Learning Greek

Lists jeffreyrequadt_list at hotmail.com
Mon May 31 15:24:40 EDT 2010


While reading some of the posts on best practices for learning Greek, and on how much grammar one needs, I made a connection to learning to play the piano. I remember how I learned to play the piano (and I'm somewhat proficient), which is probably very similar to the experience of everyone else on this list who learned: learn finger numbers; learn to sight read by identifying the names of the notes on the staff, possibly with some mnemonic device such as "Every Good Boy Does Fine"; learn technique, such as how to play smoothly vs. staccato, but also how to hold fingers and hands correctly; learn how to correctly draw/write notes, rests, bar lines, etc.; learn how to play scales, with correct fingering; learn how to play arpeggios, with correct fingering; learn how to play chords in all different inversions, again with correct fingering; learn the names of the notes in each individual chord (i.e., a D chord is D, F#, A); learn things like the circle of 5ths, key identification, etc. I learned LOTS of things, and I'm glad I did. These are what I call "skills" for lack of a better word in my vocabulary. They are all things I learned to do correctly and well and efficiently (i.e., fluently). But those are separate from what I also learned about interpretation, i.e., how to play music as music and not just as a sequence of notes. For one thing, I learned to play real music, not just a bunch of chords or scales. I learned to play a lot of beautiful, moving music, from Bach to Beethoven to Chopin to Gershwin to Faure to Rachmaninov, depending on the difficulty. But until I was in college--and here's the connection to the "learning Greek debate"--I NEVER connected the music that I was playing with the chord structures! I never noticed that a certain passage in a Beethoven sonata or Chopin prelude went from an D chord to an A chord! I was simply playing the notes that I saw on the page, without seeing or understanding a bigger vision or structure that the notes made. I could play with great expression without really seeing what I was playing. This is like someone who can read a speech without seeing how one part of the speech builds to the next part, which leads to the next part, etc.; or like someone who is reading someone ELSE'S sermon, who can read it flawlessly but doesn't see the structure that the original author built into it. In other words, I was playing skillfully without really comprehending what I was playing.
THEN, in college, I had a gifted teacher who started to point out these connections. And suddenly the world of western music was opened to me like never before. All of a sudden, instead of seeing hundreds of apreggios and chords with Cs, Es, Fs, As, and Gs, I saw a flow from a C chord to an F chord to a G chord, and back to a C chord. It was beautiful! Not only did it allow me to see what the composer wasn't trying to hide in the first place, but it allows me to see how a composer is being creative, when he or she uses something unexpected or original, or how they are breaking the rules or following them. I never would have been able to see these things in the past, and it does wonders for my playing, as well as renews my sense of wonder for a beautiful piece, because I can SEE the intricacies as well as HEAR them--I can understand so much more, so it makes it so much more beautiful, which means I have a deeper appreciation when playing or listening to them.
Now, perhaps you're not sure what I mean by all this, or don't have any musical background. But here's the next part. When I compare my musical journey with the church musicians (mainly guitarists and drummers) that I have played with, I feel so blessed (and slightly superior). For one thing, those guitarists have the same problem I used to with the piano--only instead of playing a bunch of individual notes, they play individual chords. They don't know any theory (and of course, I'm generalizing based on the experiences I've had, not to lump every church guitarist in the same bunch). They don't have the knowledge that I learned, even though I learned it in isolation from the music I was playing. They don't see how instead of playing an F chord at this one spot (as it's written), a D minor chord with an F in the bass could be really effective and give it a different, more urgent feel. They don't SEE the music, they just play either what's written (or what they hear). They are also often limited to playing a chord a certain way, although that depends more on their experience. Mostly, they learn to play specific songs, rather than learning to play ANY song.
For those of you still reading, here's the connection. I make the analogy between learning to play the piano to learning Greek. Those of us who learned the "old" way (but really more recent than the really old ways) had a heavy dose of grammar (maybe a tiny bit of composition). That's like all those scales and chords and note spelling we learned in piano. This is in contrast to learning to play specific songs, which is like learning to read specific pieces of literature. What I found out was, I need both! I need to learn grammar because if I want to really be fluent in a language, then I need to have an understanding of how that specific language works. When I don't know the grammar, just like those guitarists don't know they theory, I am limited in my ability to understand a text--or how to play a song. Can I still play or read? Yes, but in a very limited sense. Grammar, like theory, is important in making an educated reader/musician. On the other hand, is it enough to learn grammar? No! Grammar alone is like learning scales, or modes, or arpeggios, without really seeing how they contribute to the music you are playing. Without grammar/theory, I can't transpose (or invert) anything; without language/music internalizing, I can't interpret or play musically--it wouldn't be music (or real language). But learning the grammar without internalizing it is like learning that a major scale is made up of 2 tetrachords joined by a whole step, but not being able to actually play the scale fluently. On the other hand, if I just learn how to play a C scale without understanding what it is made up of, then I won't be able to transpose the song to a different key, nor will I be able to know how to harmonize it--nor will I understand how a composer is using a scale in a piece.
I'm REALLY glad I learned all that theory and skills. But I also REALLY wish that I had learned to see it in use by composers, to see how a piece is constructed, to see the fabric of the parts, and to see how a piece "makes sense." And I think that's what we need to be doing with students of New Testament Greek. They NEEED to see the grammar. But the grammar HAS to be in service to understanding (interpreting) whatever it is that they're reading. On the other hand, reading shouldn't be devoid of grammatical understanding. The more grammar I have, the more I can understand an author, and the more I can craft my own thoughts in writing. But it has less to do with learning a lot of rules as it does with learning what can make sense in a language, and how to craft sentences accurately and effectively.
Once again, I've said too much--not because I like to babble, but because I have a hard time writing concisely.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mark Lightman
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:09 AM
To: Louis Sorenson; B-Greek List mail to all
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Best Practices for Teaching/Learning Greek

Louis egrapse

<After teaching a class trying some living language methodologies for 
ancient Greek (NT), I have a few questions which I am asking myself. >

Hi, Louis

τα αυτα ερωτηματα καγω εχω.  (TA AUTA ERWTHMATA KAGW EGW)

< How does the self-study get  significant time in video?  Should they 
watch supplemental videos,
 watch class videos posted by others? Can 
one-way videos (not Skype where there is interaction) be of any value?>

What hinders the self-study from significant time in video right now is that there still have not been
very many Ancient Greek videos made.  But the good news is that more and more are being produced
every day.  The good news is that we have the technology to produce and post these videos very easily.  The good
news is that if everyone on B-Greek would take the time to produce one Koine video or two, we would be in
a much better position to prove how valuable they are.

I'm asking us all to make Koine videos and post them on You-Tube or somewhere else.  This one,
made over the weekend, is pretty good because it uses visual prompts and has more than one speaker:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEgMmqW66jk

If you type in "Learning Spanish" on You-Tube you will find hundreds of videos which to me must be
useful to Spanish Learners.  And since there are fewer Koine speakers, we simply need more Koine
videos.  "It's the only thing that there's just too little of."

<How much time does one need when using aural/visual learning 
methodologies
 compared to non-aural traditional methods? More, less, or 
the same?>

The dirty little secret of Living Language Methods is that they take MORE time than
just learning forms and vocab and reading.

<When should grammar be studied, concurrently or 
subsequentially?  
Should grammar be studied systematically or ad hoc as in inductive 
methods?>

What is it that Mayor Daley said about voting?  It should be done "early and often."  That is the problem with
Seminary Greek; grammar is introduced too early and too often.  I blogged on this issue once:


http://schole.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-much-grammar-does-a-man

<Does translating into English have more, less or equal value from 
composing into Greek?>

Less value in this sense:  To this day, when I read or reread Greek, I can't stop myself from 
automatically in my head translating almost every word into English.  When I try not to do this,
when I try to read by "thinking in Greek" it takes more mental effort and slows me down, so I have
given up.  I'm not sure how this habit got started, but if I were starting all over again I would try to 
figure out a way not to do this.

<Is there an age-appropriate limit for living language methods?>

If you have kids or grandkids and you are not teaching them Koine, you are
wasting brain cells which are still moist.

<How does a self-study student know their translation/composition is OK?>

I have one and only criteria for whether composed Greek is "okay" or not.
Can I understand it?  If so, it is okay.  And when I say "understand," I mean
this in the loosest sense of the term. One guy wrote to me Off-list:  "You
know, Lightman, your Greek is not really much harder to understand than
your English."  Precisely.  On the nose.  There was a discussion on this
topic in Textkit with the nice title "Have you ever had your Latin
corrected by an ignoramus?"  As usual, no one agreed with me on this
subject.


http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10732

Case in point:  The other day someone sent me a nice Off-list e-mail
noting that in my song GENOITO ("Let it Be") LALWN TA SOFIA
should be LALOUSA TA SOFIA because "Mother Mary" of
course is feminine.  Me and my kids and my own mom have been singing this song
for months and I never noticed this mistake.  It IS a mistake, I grant,
and I'm grateful that it was pointed out, but you know,  I'm not even going
to change the song.

"If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1pzXJuvdAY

<Is it possible to take a grammar like Mounce, Croy, or story based 
grammars such as Athenaze, JACT, and Let's Study Greek (Hale) and use 
living language methods with it?  Has anyone tried this?>

I've done this to the extent that I often listen to some audio files
that are from Book One of Athenaze.  Scroll down on this site and
you'll find them.


http://spiphanies.blogspot.com/2009/03/audio-resources-for-ancient-greek.html

I have also done the exercises in Book One orally.  I think Book One
of Athenaze is very under-rated in that it DOES use Living Language
Methods.  There are also some You-Tube videos based on this text,
and apparently there is an Italian version of the book which is even better.

I also think it is important for those of us who have become
obnoxious recent converts to Living Language Methods to 
realize that these methods have always been used by serious students.
Carl provided a link a while back about some guy named
Thomas DeQuincey who taught himself to speak Ancient
Greek a long time ago.  And Niko A reminds us that
Byzantine Greek never really "died" in the first place.
Using Greek is just more public now, which is a good thing.

<To what extent do living language methods make a difference in 
increasing understanding and accelerating the learning curve?>

Ah, now we come to it, the real question.  I'll say this: I taught myself
how to read the Greek NT just by reading the Greek NT over and over again with Zerwick
and a Reader's Greek NT, with virtually no Living Language Methods,
and I cannot say that my "understanding" of the Greek NT has increased
much by using Living Language Methods fairly heavily over the last year
or so.  If I had spent all the time on just more reading of, say, Plato
that I have spent listening to, writing, speaking, and watching Ancient
Greek, I cannot say whether my Greek would be better or worse.
My sense is that learning to READ Homer has helped my ability
to read unfamiliar Greek more than all the Living Language stuff
has.  My experience has been that Living Language Methods
make reading Greek not easier, but more comfortable and familiar and somehow
more--what's the word--Haimish, as my mother would say.


http://www.yourdictionary.com/haimish

Of course, I grant that Living Language Methods probably will increase
learning more if they are introduced right at the beginning.  But how
much compared to just more reading?  ουκ οιδα.   OUK OIDA.  Dunno. 

p.s.  Here's one more nice Koine video produced this month which answers
a basic question I had a while back.  Does WATCHING the Greek NT being
read as opposed to LISTENING to it being read make is easier to understand?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCLPHdYZCfA&feature=related



Mark L



FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Louis Sorenson <llsorenson at hotmail.com>
To: B-Greek List mail to all <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 12:24:10 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] Best Practices for Teaching/Learning Greek


Hello all,

After teaching a class trying some living language methodologies for ancient Greek (NT), I have a few questions which I am asking myself. I also have self-study students in mind and those who may be remote-study students. Many of these topics have been touched on here or there in the b-Greek emails and some directly in Buth's and Rico's books from their persepctives. But putting them into a list helps me realize I still have a lot of questions. 

The questions are broken down into the following categories:

BEST PRACTICES FOR SELF-STUDY STUDENTS
USING LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
COMPOSITION AND TRANSLATION AND READING
INCORPORATION OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES INTO TRADITIONAL CLASSES
ACCEPTANCE OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES

BEST PRACTICES FOR SELF-STUDY/Remote STUDENTS
1. How does the self-study get  significant time in video?  Should they watch supplemental videos, watch class videos posted by others? Can one-way videos (not Skype where there is interaction) be of any value? 
2. How does the self-study get  significant time response to real-life 
question/answer methods rather than replying to a stock question where the answer is in an answer key?
3. How important is accountability? How does the self-study student make 
themselves acheive and do the work? They get no grade, pay no fees, 
etc. Would a club membership (like on Schole) with kind of attainment 
badge (=skill status) be of value and encouragement?

USING LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
4. To what extent do living language methods make a difference in 
increasing understanding and accelerating the learning curve?
5.  How much time does one need when using aural/visual learning methodologies compared to non-aural traditional methods? More, less, or the same?
6. Is there an age-appropriate limit for living language methods?  Older 
adults needing the systematic explanation of phrases and younger 
students more able to adapt (have less need) of grammatical explanations
and more interested in using a language?
7. When should grammar be studied, concurrently or 
subsequentially?  Should grammar be studied systematically or ad hoc as in inductive methods?
8. What amount of non-Biblical words should be included?
9. How and when to wean a student off of speaking/hearing into reading or if reading
was always a part, how and when to discontinue such methods (or is 
listening kept and not speaking?)

COMPOSITION AND TRANSLATION AND READING
10.  What type of composition methods are best, phrases, whole sentences, fill in the blanks, ktl?
11.  Does translating into English have more, less or equal value from composing into Greek?
12.  How does a self-study student know their translation/composition is OK?
13.  At what point are students expected to get longer sentences?  Is there
value in having longer involved sentences, even though they may be 
simple?
14.  Does reading long passages (a story like Athenaze or JACT) give more 
to the student than traditional independent sentence based grammars?


INCORPORATION OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES INTO TRADITIONAL CLASSES
15.  Is it possible to take a grammar like Mounce, Croy, or story based 
grammars such as Athenaze, JACT, and Let's Study Greek (Hale) and use 
living language methods with it?  Has anyone tried this?
16.  Could a supplemental LLM class in addition to a traditional weekly 
class be more value?  (e.g. 3 classes a week, one with LLM methods 
covering the same material as the other two lessons which are taught the
standard way) versus 3 traditional classes a week?


ACCEPTANCE OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
17.  What level of acceptance of ancient Greek living language methodologies will be accepted by institutions of higher learning and accreditation? Will demonstration of numerous students' capabilities (such as passing a Greek Exam) validate such methodologies, or will they be relegated to the shadows for the foreseeable future? 
18.   Do those decision makers in such institutions have any available criteria or standards by which to judge the success of ancient Greek LLM pedagogies?

Any answers or even more questions would be appreciated. Sometimes just reading through a list of such questions will get the mind to re-evaluate how they would like to learn/teach. 

Louis Sorenson





                          
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