[B-Greek] Analysis of middle-passive forms (was "John 11:4 and the Middle/Passive of DOXAZW")

Tim Mclay timmclay at ymail.com
Tue Mar 1 23:24:18 EST 2011


yes, but it think there is another, good to connect with people



________________________________
From: Ken Penner <kpenner at stfx.ca>
To: Tim Mclay <timmclay at ymail.com>
Cc: "b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 9:22:29 PM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Analysis of middle-passive forms (was "John 11:4 and the 
Middle/Passive of DOXAZW")

Hi Tim,
Would you be thinking of his contribution "Deponency and Greek Lexicography" in 
_Biblical Greek Language and Lexicography_ (Eerdmans, 2004)?
Ken

Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
St. Francis Xavier University
Greek vocabulary software: http://people.stfx.ca/kpenner/flash/ 

> I've been lurking a bit and just noticed this discussion. I can't  
> remember where
> they are published but Bernard Taylor has written a couple of  
> articles in whch
> he argues that the so-called deponents all have a middle force. He  
> is mlore
> known in LXX circles, but it is interesting that I don't see much on  
> the XX when
> it is biblical Greek as well. Is there ever much discussion?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Cc: B Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 1:53:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Analysis of middle-passive forms (was "John  
> 11:4 and the
> Middle/Passive of DOXAZW")
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>> Hi, Carl, thanks.  Those are all helpful comments.
>>
>> I guess I would just say that, for me, the most PRACTICAL  
>> APPLICATION of your
>> ideas on voice are:
>>
>> 1.  If you see a passive, whether MAI SAI TAI or QHN QHS QH, don't  
>> just assume
>
>> that it is a passive.  See if you can find some "middle" force.  If  
>> not, then
>> fine, construe it as a passive.  I think Bryant should be applauded  
>> for trying
>
>> this out with John 11:4, even if he turns out to be wrong.
>>
>> 2.  If you see a verb that people call deponent, don't assume it is  
>> just an
>> active.  See if you can find some "middle" force.
>
>>
>> Further deponent sayeth naught.
>
> All I have sought to do in my work on ancient Greek Voice is to  
> challenge
> some misconceptions (the notion of deponency, the notion that  
> "passive"
> verbs have "active" functions, the notion that -QH- endings indicate
> a passive sense unless the verb is irregular ("deponent"). I haven't  
> tried
> to lay down any new rules and I continue to believe that voice usage  
> in
> ancient Greek is a complex matter. Ultimately it is the verbs oneself
> and their idiosyncrasies that one must know rather intimately so as to
> listen to them when one encounters them in one's reading. Grammar
> and its rules don't really have much to do with reading and Greek
> well; grammar is useful only for texts that one has already basically
> understood, to clarify HOW they mean what they mean.
>
>> Now, I understand why you misunderstood me, but when I said that  
>> Jesus breaks
>> the rules of grammar I meant to say nothing about his own diction.  
>> What I
>> meant
>>
>> was that statements ABOUT Jesus by his followers break the rules of  
>> grammar
>> because, since  He is seen to be, among others things,  both God  
>> and man by his
>>
>> followers, ordinary logic, among other things, doesn't apply.  I  
>> don't want to
>
>> get into this right now, but just wanted to make this clear.  I  
>> said nothing
>> about Jesus' own grammatical abilities because I don't know  
>> anything about
>> this.  (Not that that has stopped me before.  :)
>
> And here I would contend, as I think George would also, that I  
> misunderstood
> you because you didn't really say what you meant to say. Jesus spoke  
> in
> riddles -- AINIGMATA, PARABOLAI -- but that doesn't mean we should
> do so.
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm 

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