[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Mar 8 06:16:41 EST 2011
On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:18 AM, Beata Urbanek wrote:
> Could I therefore say that GAR connects the two sentences very closely? That we cannot really divide them? Or the connection is quite loose?
I think you're asking too much. Is it a slip knot or a hangman's knot? I don't think you can say anything more than that GAR indicates that statement B comments on statement A.
> I'd appreciate thoughts about QELW from other people as well.
Here too I think you're asking for more of a disambiguation between QELW and BOULOMAI than is to be readily achieved. I haven't done a study on this -- perhaps somebody has, but I don't know of it -- but my sense is that earlier Greek tended to use QELW or EQELW of consent or willingness to do something or for something to be done, while BOULOMAI was used rather for positive intent to do something or have something done. I note that LSJ says, " ... to be willing (of consent rather than desire, v. βούλομαι 1), but also generally, wish ... "
I'm inclined to think that the two verbs are more or less synonymous and that QELW is the more common in everyday colloquial discourse. I note that QELW is found 208x in the GNT, 153x in the LXX, while BOULOMAI is found 37 times in the GNT, 121 times in the LXX. It might be worth a further investigation, but I don't see much basis to differentiate the sense of the two verbs very sharply.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beata Urbanek" <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
> To: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>
>> Thank you, George.
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: George F Somsel
>> To: Beata Urbanek ; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> It means that Robertson was correct when saying that the main use of γάρ GAR is to explain what has already been stated.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:11:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> Thanks, George.
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand this sentence (even with the help of English-Polish dictionary):
>> "Robertson's 'explanatory' assertion has largely been confirmed as the core constraint of γάρ in modern linguistic treatements."
>> Could you explain it to me, please?
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: George F Somsel
>> To: Beata Urbanek ; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 4:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> 4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρωπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
>> 5 Εἷς γὰρ θεός,
>> εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων,
>> ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς
>>
>> 4 hOS PANTAS ANQRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNWSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN.
>> 5 hEIS GAR QEOS,
>> hEIS KAI MESITHS QEOU KAI ANQRWPWN,
>> ANQRWPOS XRISTOS IHSOUS
>>
>> First, let us dispose of γάρ GAR. I've found Steve Runge's _Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament_ to be helpful particularly with regard to some of the conjunctions. He notes that while Wallace and Young indicate that γάρ GAR is both coordinating and subordinating that
>>
>> "Robertson's 'explanatory' assertion has largely been confirmed as the core constraint of γάρ in modern linguistic treatements."
>>
>> And,
>>
>> "Where it occurs in narrative proper, the proposition introduced by γάρ fleshes out some aspect of what precedes. It may be in the form of background information; it may introduce the reason or rationale for some preceding action or state."
>>
>>
>> Regarding βούλομαι BOULOMAI and θέλω QELW, it seems that the difference BDAG indicates is that θέλω QELW indicates a wish or desire while βούλομαι BOULOMAI not only indicates a desire but a plan. I am not sure that I agree with this -- particularly with regard to this passage. Here it would seem that what is indicated is precisely that God's wish is then carried out -- that is to say, a plan is executed.
>>
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 2:35:51 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>> Dear B-Greekers,
>>
>> the text:
>> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>> 5. hEIS GAR QEOS hEIS KAI MESITHS QEOU KAI ANQRWPWN ANQRWPOS CRISTOS IHSOUS
>>
>> My questions concerns two words.
>> 1. QELW
>> In an article I read an interpretation that there is a distinction between QELW and BOULOMAI here. So, the text says that it's God's wish, that He simply wants all the people to have all they need to be saved. In other words that it's a wish off his heart and not a decision of his will. Can we say that on tha base of the meaning of the verbs?
>> Thayer says: "As respects the distinction between βούλομαι and θέλω, the former seems to designate the will which follows deliberation, the latter the will which proceeds from inclination". There is also a reverse of this distinction.
>> BDAG has a few meanings of QELW:
>> a. to have a desire for something, wish to have, desire, want
>> b. to have someth. in mind for oneself, of purpose, resolve, will, wish, want, be ready
>> BDAG doesn't refer to 1 Tim 2:4.
>> At BOULOMAI BDAG cites BDF - there is no difference in meaning between the verbs.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> 2. GAR
>> Is GAR here explicative (as BDAG suggests) or it gives the reason? This is the more important question to me. What is the connection between the verses 4 and 5?
>>
>> Beata Urbanek/b-greek
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