[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Mar 8 07:32:42 EST 2011
On Mar 8, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
> Beata wrote
>
> <I'd appreciate thoughts about QELW from other people as well.>
>
> Hi, Beata,
>
> How about some thoughts from Euripides:
>
> Alcestis is about to die in place of her husband. Before she dies, she wants to
> tell him what she wants, the main thing being that she does not want her husband
> to get remarried ("the funeral baked meats did coldly furnish forth the marriage
> tables!") This is how she puts it:
>
> λέξαι θέλω σοι πρὶν θανεῖν ἃ βούλομαι. (LEXAI QELW SOI PRIN
> QANEIN hA BOULOMAI)
>
> "Before I die, I want to tell you what I want."
>
> She has resolved with her will (BOULOMAI) that her kids would be better off
> without a step-mother, but it is her heart's wish (QELW) that a woman be really
> heard by her husband, if only once, if only here.
Mark, I just can't see how you're getting that sense from this text; you're talking
about matters that are altogether out of the scope of this statement, which would
seem to be saying no more than, "I want to tell you what's on my mind." I think
we might very well argue that "what's on my mind" (hA BOULOMAI) is what
she intends to accomplish by doing what she's about to do (i.e. die in place of
her husband Admetus). But the complement of QELW is nothing more than
LEXAI -- "make a statement."
It seems to me that Euripides' usage of LEXAI QELW here does not differ
significantly from the Pauline expression, OU QELW hUMAS AGNOEIN,
ADELFOI (Rom. 1:13,. 11:25 1Cor. 10:1, 12:1 2Cor. 1:8, 1Th. 4:13)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> ________________________________
> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
> To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>;
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 3:18:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
> Could I therefore say that GAR connects the two sentences very closely? That we
> cannot really divide them? Or the connection is quite loose?
>
> I'd appreciate thoughts about QELW from other people as well.
>
> Beata Urbanek
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beata Urbanek" <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
> To: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>
>> Thank you, George.
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: George F Somsel
>> To: Beata Urbanek ; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> It means that Robertson was correct when saying that the main use of γάρ GAR
>> is to explain what has already been stated.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:11:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> Thanks, George.
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand this sentence (even with the help of English-Polish
>> dictionary):
>> "Robertson's 'explanatory' assertion has largely been confirmed as the core
>> constraint of γάρ in modern linguistic treatements."
>> Could you explain it to me, please?
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: George F Somsel
>> To: Beata Urbanek ; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 4:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> 4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρωπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας
>> ἐλθεῖν.
>> 5 Εἷς γὰρ θεός,
>> εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων,
>> ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς
>>
>> 4 hOS PANTAS ANQRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNWSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN.
>> 5 hEIS GAR QEOS,
>> hEIS KAI MESITHS QEOU KAI ANQRWPWN,
>> ANQRWPOS XRISTOS IHSOUS
>>
>> First, let us dispose of γάρ GAR. I've found Steve Runge's _Discourse
>> Grammar of the Greek New Testament_ to be helpful particularly with regard to
>> some of the conjunctions. He notes that while Wallace and Young indicate that
>> γάρ GAR is both coordinating and subordinating that
>>
>> "Robertson's 'explanatory' assertion has largely been confirmed as the core
>> constraint of γάρ in modern linguistic treatements."
>>
>> And,
>>
>> "Where it occurs in narrative proper, the proposition introduced by γάρ
>> fleshes out some aspect of what precedes. It may be in the form of background
>> information; it may introduce the reason or rationale for some preceding action
>> or state."
>>
>>
>> Regarding βούλομαι BOULOMAI and θέλω QELW, it seems that the difference
>> BDAG indicates is that θέλω QELW indicates a wish or desire while βούλομαι
>> BOULOMAI not only indicates a desire but a plan. I am not sure that I agree
>> with this -- particularly with regard to this passage. Here it would seem that
>> what is indicated is precisely that God's wish is then carried out -- that is to
>> say, a plan is executed.
>>
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 2:35:51 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>> Dear B-Greekers,
>>
>> the text:
>> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>> 5. hEIS GAR QEOS hEIS KAI MESITHS QEOU KAI ANQRWPWN ANQRWPOS CRISTOS IHSOUS
>>
>> My questions concerns two words.
>> 1. QELW
>> In an article I read an interpretation that there is a distinction between
>> QELW and BOULOMAI here. So, the text says that it's God's wish, that He simply
>> wants all the people to have all they need to be saved. In other words that it's
>> a wish off his heart and not a decision of his will. Can we say that on tha base
>> of the meaning of the verbs?
>> Thayer says: "As respects the distinction between βούλομαι and θέλω, the
>> former seems to designate the will which follows deliberation, the latter the
>> will which proceeds from inclination". There is also a reverse of this
>> distinction.
>> BDAG has a few meanings of QELW:
>> a. to have a desire for something, wish to have, desire, want
>> b. to have someth. in mind for oneself, of purpose, resolve, will, wish,
>> want, be ready
>> BDAG doesn't refer to 1 Tim 2:4.
>> At BOULOMAI BDAG cites BDF - there is no difference in meaning between the
>> verbs.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> 2. GAR
>> Is GAR here explicative (as BDAG suggests) or it gives the reason? This is
>> the more important question to me. What is the connection between the verses 4
>> and 5?
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list