[B-Greek] Syntax of Rev 21:3e
Randall Tan
randall.tan at asiabiblesociety.org
Tue Mar 15 19:08:54 EDT 2011
Steve,
Since you named me specifically, I guess I should comment (somewhat late, as this thread has already had multiple additional responses before I received my digest & had the time to respond briefly here).
καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἔσται [αὐτῶν θεός],
KAI AUTOS hO QEOS MET' AUTWN ESTAI [AUTWN QEOS].
I think the crux is explaining why μετ᾽ αὐτῶν MET' AUTWN is before the verb, as you suggest. The options you suggest are all plausible to me. However, after following the discussion in this thread, I think ὁ θεὸς μετ᾽ αὐτῶν, with the prepositional phrase adjectivally modifying "God" is the most likely option. The lack of an article before the preposition is not determinative. I decided to search the Greek syntactic treebank of the New Testament of the Asia Bible Society & also see if I could get similar results using the implementation of our treebank in Logos 4 (the Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the New Testament). The basic idea is to find all cases of a prepositional phrase adjectivally modified a noun without an article preceding the preposition. (I also filtered out articles that function as the np head--e.g., "those ones before you" in Mat5:12.) The search in Logos 4 yields 438 examples that may be relevant (I only did some spot checking as I don't have time to look at all the examples right now). I have attached the list of passages & the search query (to replicate the search in Logos 4) for those who would like to investigate further.
So, I agree with George's interpretation: "the same God who is with them shall be their God." Since in rev22:3 it already tells us that God's tent will be among men & further that he will dwell among them--taking "the God who is with them" as old information referring back to this dwelling among them makes sense. The new information, the predicate nominative, informs us that this same God who dwells among them will be "their God."
Randall
Randall Tan, Ph.D.
Asia Bible Society
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Runge [mailto:srunge at logos.com]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 2:04 PM
To: 'Eric Inman'; 'Stephen Carlson'; 'Biblical Greek Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Syntax of Rev 21:3e
Hi Eric,
In analyzing the syntax, you have to account for placement of each piece. Here is the text again:
καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἔσται [αὐτῶν θεός],
KAI AUTOS hO QEOS MET' AUTWN ESTAI [AUTWN QEOS].
The crux is explaining why μετ᾽ αὐτῶν MET' AUTWN is before the verb. Is it because it is most important/emphasized? This is how I translated it in the last post. To read it this way, you'd have to take αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς AUTOS hO QEOS as a contrastive topic, which is what I had previously understood it as. Based on the presence of intensive αὐτὸς AUTOS and the bracketed text reaffirming it, I am wondering if I have missed an option.
The alternative way of analyzing the structure is to view αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς AUTOS hO QEOS as most salient/emphasized (in marked focus, technically speaking). In this case, the prepositional phrase is explained by natural information flow, and the bracketed info would then be reiterating what is most salient. This reading would be translates something like "And it is God himself who will be with them, their God."
I'm not sure I had considered this latter reading a few years ago. It can account for all of the data. I'd be interested in hearing opinions from Carl, Randall or others on this.
Thanks for pushing back, Eric. My reading isn't exactly like yours, but it may be compatible with what you were thinking. In any case, it is awkward to translate.
Regards,
Steve Runge
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Runge
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 3:23 PM
To: 'Stephen Carlson'; Biblical Greek Mailing List
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Syntax of Rev 21:3e
Hi Stephen,
In the Lexham Discourse GNT project, I analyzed the NA text, so I had to address the bracketed information. In characteristic fashion, John adds very little new information in these clauses. The result is that there is a lot of established information is reiterated in each successive clause of v. 3. I'd argue the repetition is thematically motivated to drive home a point.
If you were to include the bracketed text, I'd call it a right-dislocation, which is an appositive at the end of the clause that typically adds thematically salient information about some entity previously referred to in the clause. Since in this case the bracketed info is already well established (we are not wondering which "god" he is referring to), then there are two likely thematic functions for "their God."
The first would be to affirm God's role as "their God:" "And God himself will live with them, their God." This would suggest a comparison to other gods of other peoples. What other people has experienced such a thing with their god? Who else would do such a thing?
The other possibility would be that the bracketed text is intended to reaffirm God's identity. This would be major overkill based on AUTOS earlier in the clause, but seems fit best in the context based on the preceding clauses. Since the intensive "himself" has already been used, you'd likely need to use a different English strategy like "even their God." It would be important to maintain the separate full reference at the end of the clause, since we are used to thematic information being placed there in English.
Look at the development of thought in each of the clauses in v. 3:
3b. The dwelling place of God [will be] with men; 3c. and He will reside with them (nicely balanced cola, narrowing the focus from "his residence" to "God") 3d. and they will be his people (perhaps expecting a balanced colon of "and he will be their God") 3e. and God himself, it is with THEM he will be--their God!
This is one of those troublesome and all-too-frequent places where I have a sense of what is going on in the text, but English words fail to capture it all in one tidy colon. It needs some waving of arms I think, but hopefully this will advance the discussion.
Regards,
Steve
Steven E. Runge, DLitt
Scholar-in-Residence
Logos Bible Software
srunge at logos.com
www.logos.com
www.ntdiscourse.org
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Carlson
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 12:40 PM
To: Biblical Greek Mailing List
Subject: [B-Greek] Syntax of Rev 21:3e
I'll be going over Rev 21:1-7 in my Greek class on Thursday, and I've found a syntactically confusing passage I'd appreciate your thoughts on. The sentence is the fifth clause of Rev 21:3, which reads as
follows:
καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἔσται [αὐτῶν θεός],
KAI AUTOS hO QEOS MET' AUTWN ESTAI [AUTWN QEOS].
If we delete the bracketed portion, as do many manuscripts, the clause seems fairly straight-forward: "and God himself will be with them."
With the bracketed portion, the syntax confuses me. Many translations add an "and": "and be their God," but I think this is cheating. Other possibilities are to take the bracketed portion as an appositive: "and God himself will be with them, their God."
The commentaries I have consulted have not been too helpful. Charles
(ICC) discussed various textual variants only to obelize the entire clause (i.e., to mark it as corrupt).
What say the denizens of B-Greek?
Stephen
--
Stephen C. Carlson
Graduate Program in Religion
Duke University
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