[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 19 11:54:46 EDT 2011
I scaled down your font. I really dislike oversized fonts.
Even in Smyth, it doesn't appear that he is attributing any expression
of causality to the ὅς hOS itself, but seems rather to indicate much the same
thing as I said -- there is causality expressed (He simply has no reason to
state explicitly that it does not lie in the word itself).
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>;
BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 8:39:41 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
George wrote,
<I would say that whoever wishes to understand ὅς hOS as having a causal
meaning needs to provide some proof that such can indeed be the case -- which I
don't think is possible.>
Hi, George,
Smyth, Greek Grammar:
2555. Relative Clauses of Cause take the indicative (negative οὐ). ὅς is more
common than ὅστις.
θαυμαστὸνποιεῖς, δ̀ς( = ὅτι σὺ) ““ἡμῖν . . . οὐδὲν δίδως” you do a strange thing
in giving us nothing” X. M. 2.7.13, Λοξίᾳ δὲ μέμφομαι, ὅστις μ᾽ ἐπά_ρα_ς ἔργον
ἀνοσιώτατον τοῖς μὲν λόγοις ηὔφρα_νε κτλ. I blame Loxias, who after inciting me
to a deed most unhallowed, cheered me with words, etc. E. Or. 285. So when the
relative is a dependent exclamation (οἷος ῀ ὅτι τοιοῦτος, etc., 2687).
a. γε is often added to ὅς or ὅστις.
b. μή is used when there is also an idea of characteristic (of such a sort) or
condition (perhaps to avoid a harsher form of statement). Cp. 2705 g.
But I think we are looking at this all wrong. I don't think one needs a grammar
or grammatical category or even another example to show that there is causal
force here. As you said in your post after this one, maybe the causal force
lies in the nature of discourse, any discourse, and not in the relative pronoun
itself, but it is clearly there.
Beata wrote about ὅς
<I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.>
Hi Beata,
This is also wrong. Words don't have meanings. Meanings use words. You don't
"find" the meaning of a Greek word by looking in a dictionary or grammar. You
learn to read Greek and the meaning is there. This is my own ultra nauseam, I
know.
Mark L
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 9:07:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
I would say that whoever wishes to understand ὅς hOS as having a causal
meaning needs to provide some proof that such can indeed be the case -- which I
don't think is possible. Note the sentence without the verse number to muck
things up.
τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ,
ὃς πάντος ἀνθρώπους ...
TOUTO KALON KAI APODEKTON ENWPION TOU SWTHROS hHMWN QEOU, hOS PANTOS ANQRWPOUS
...
Unless your unnamed commentator can find some proof of the use of ὅς hOS in a
causative sense (which I seriously doubt he will be able) and can then further
show that the use here fits his scheme, it appears that the usage here is the
common, ordinary, everyday, meat-and-potatos relative which ties the following
clause back to its antecedent.
As regards whether the position of πάντος ἀνθρώπους PANTOS ANQRWPOUS is
emphatic, I would say that may be the case, but discourse linguistics is not my
field. I think Steve Runge would be better able to answer that. I tried
finding some answer in his book, but it would appear that he doesn't feel that
it is such an easy question to answer so that it requires some considerable
discussion. He speaks of the normal information flow and old information / new
information which whole matter would take a bit more time to wade through than I
care to spend to answer one question so that it is better for him to respond
personally. I would note, however that, going back to the beginning of the
chapter, the discussion was concerning praying for all men
Παρακαλῶ οὖν πρῶτον πάντων ποιεῖσθαι δεήσεις προσευχὰς ἐντεύξεις εὐχαριστίας **
ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων ** PARAKALW OUN PRWTON PANTWN POIEISQAI DEHSIS PROSEUXAS
ENTEUCEIS EUXARISTIAS ** hUPER PANTWN ANQRWPWN **
Thus, while it may be the case that there is some prominence in its position, I
somewhat doubt that since it is not any new information and simply resumes the
discussion of prayer for all men on the basis of (hmm--am I introducing a causal
idea ?) the fact that God wishes all men to be saved. Whatever Steve says
regarding this, listen to him since that's his specialty.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 7:19:56 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Plus another question:)
One of the commentators says that hOS has a causal meaning: "because He wants
all people to be saved". I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.
Beata Urbanek
> Thanks to all who responded.
>
> The text again:
> 4. ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>
> I have another question.
> Is the position of πάντας ἀνθρώπους at the beginning of the v. 4 emphatic?
>Should the "normal" word order be:
> ὃς θέλει σωθῆναι πάντας ἀνθρώπους.
> hOS QELEI SWQHNAI PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS
>
> Beata Urbanek
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> To: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>; "BG"
><b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>
>> After having looked at all the BOULOMAIs in the NT, I get the impression that
>>it
>> usually refers to the following scenario: I have thought about the situation,
>I
>> have come to a decision or made a plan, and therefore: this is what I want
you
>> to do or this is what I want should happen.
>> If more than one person is involved, the decision would be a result of that
>> consultation, but in most cases the person consults within him- or herself.
>>
>> In 2 Pet 3:9 we read: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
>> χωρῆσαι
>> MH BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI ALLA PANTAS EIS METANOIAN CWRHSAI
>>
>> (God) is not planning (does not want) for anyone to be destroyed but for all
>to
>> make room for repentance.
>>
>> In 1 Tim 2:4 God would wish (QELEI) for all people to be saved and come to
>>fully
>> know the truth.
>>
>> But he also knows that this will not happen, even though he has put
everything
>> in place for it to happen as v. 5 explains: He has sent Jesus Christ as the
>> mediator, but there is only one God. If people will not believe and
>acknowledge
>> this truth, they will not be saved.
>>
>> Although there is considerable overlap between the words, I do believe that
>>some
>> distinction is present. It is akin to, but not quite the same as, the
>>difference
>> between English "want" and "wish".
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Rollinson"
<rollinsondr at yahoo.com>
>> To: <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: 9. marts 2011 02:14
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> Dear Beata,
>> Could it be that THELW qelw relates to THELHMA qelhma - what an individual
>> wishes or wants
>> and that BOULOMAI boulomai relates to BOULH boulh - what a council decides
>> together?
>>
>> thank you
>> Shirley Rollinson
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> 9. Re: 1 Timothy 2:4-5 (Beata Urbanek)
>>
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>
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