[B-Greek] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Mar 24 16:20:57 EDT 2011
On Mar 24, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Alastair Haines wrote:
> Friends,
>
> perhaps both English and Greek here are proving Professor Conrad's theory
> that less ambiguous human languages might reduce human conflicts.
But -- I honestly don't believe there's a bit of ambiguity here.
> Context and conditionals are relevant here as already noted.
> The aorist subjunctive in the protasis (AFHTE) contrasts with
> an future indicative in the apodosis (AFHSEI).
And this is the standard form of what some call a "future more vivid"
condition with protasis in present or more commonly aorist subjunctive
in the sense, "If ever X should (at some time in the future) occur ... "
and with apodosis in the form of a future indicative in the sense, " ...
then Y will occur."
> I take it that the subjunctive is sufficiently explained by the conditional,
> but how do we explain the aorist? Why not simple gnomic usage?
> IF you all are forgiving [by nature], THEN your heavenly Father will forgive you.
The "gnomic" aorist is fundamentally an Indicative category. AFHTE in
the verses here is not Gnomic.
> Gnomic verbal ideas contrast with episodic verbal ideas, so we can forget time.
> Pulling back from imagining episodes where individuals forgive or fail to forgive,
> frees things up from reading Matthew as saying "forgive or be damned."
>
> The gnomic idea can be expressed in English, as a so-called first conditional.
> If you forgive, then God will forgive.
> But that is ambiguous in English, at least in my variety of it.
> So I would be inclined to translate (if someone forced me to translate)
> the gnomic of the Greek in some way.
>
> Note also, Matthew 6:12:
> "Forgive (AFES) us ... as (hWS) we forgive (AFHKAMEN)".
> Kappa aorist, not perfect, gnomic interpretation.
> Forgive as we forgive, not forgive because we have forgiven.
>
> Matthew 6:12 really needs to be gnomic,
> and coming before 14-15 as it does, makes reading them easier.
>
> I do hope this reading is correct,
> you'd all jolly well be sure to forgive me if I'm wrong though. ;)
I think you're wrong, but I have to forgive you or I have no right to expect forgiveness!
See Smyth, §1931 (http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.9:6:131.perseusmonographs)
See Wallace, GGBB, p. 562 "Gnomic Aorist"
>
> alastair
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: "Oun Kwon" <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE
>
>
>> Perhaps you don't understand English any more than you understand Greek. "If
>> you don't forgive men, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions."
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:09:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE
>>
>> Superficially so.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:14 AM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> It must be understood -- wait for it. IN ITS CONTEXT. The context is that
>>> of teaching the disciples (and therefore the Church) to pray:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> hOUTWS OUN PROSEUXESQE hUMEIS:
>>> ...
>>> KAI AFES hHMIN TA OFELHMATA hHMWN,
>>> hWS KAI hHMEIS AFHKAMEN TOIS OFEILETAIS hHMWN.
>>>
>>> Thus the context is that of whenever they pray indicating a general
>>> condition. "If you do not forgive, neither will your father ..."
>>>
>>> george
>>
>>
>> Superifically so. However, ...
>>
>> If I am correct, what I get from the text in question is that our
>> forgiving is to be consequent of God's forgiveness. In such context,
>> if we say that God forgives us when we forgive others and He will not
>> if we don't, we do have not a small problem to solve. It makes God's
>> forgiveness to be very conditional to our forgiveness.
>>
>> Oun Kwon.
>>
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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