[B-Greek] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 25 07:03:09 EDT 2011
On Mar 25, 2011, at 5:21 AM, Alastair Haines wrote:
> Robertson seems fine to me,
> not that I'd be inclined to disagree with him anyway.
>
> It seems we agree that time is not part of the intention of the Greek,
> maybe we disagree about whether it is the Mood (subjunctive) or
> Aspect (aoristic) that communicates that intention.
How can we say that time is NOT part of the intention of the Greek?
We have an IF clause in the aorist subjunctive and a RESULT
clause in the FUTURE INDICATIVE:
IF you do X (now or at any time hereafter), THEN your
heavenly Father WILL FORGIVE you.
>
> Why can't *both* Mood *and* Aspect in Mt 6:15,
> together with *both* conditional construction *and* context,
> constrain viewing the protasis as a whole, from the outside,
> as a general condition, not piecemeal, nor from the inside,
> nor in a specific or once-off kind of way.
It's not a General condition but a Future condition.
General conditions involve a protasis setting forth what
one may do at any time and an apodosis setting forth
what always happens when the terms of the protasis hold.
> Those oppositions are generally accepted by the grammars,
> in a wide diversity of contexts. They are helpful for
> confirming interpretation in this verse, aren't they?
>
> Which idea is in the Greek?
> 1. A forgives B sin X, so God forgives A sin Y
> 2. A forgives B sin X, so God forgives A all sins
> 3. A forgives all, so God forgives A some sin Y
> 4. A forgives all, so God forgives A all sins
> 5. A mostly forgives all, and God forgives A all sins
>
> Aren't there many clues in the text pushing interpretation
> towards the later interpretations? I'd propose it's
> exactly those same clues that push towards (5) over (4).
>
> I think the plurality of the objects of both verbs
> is also part of the logic.
> Perhaps that's an easier constraint on interpretation.
>
> Maybe "gnomic aorist" is not the best term.
> Perhaps the generality and maxim-like feel of the verses
> arises from grammatical features other than the aorist.
> But I'm not sure I want to abandon the term or connection yet.
>
> In any case, I don't think a single instance of unforgiveness
> satisfies the condition of the protasis in 6:15.
> So Oun Kwon has the right idea and right questions.
I'm sorry and I may be utterly dense here, but I really don't
understand what seems to me a need to dilute the forcefulness
of this Jesus-saying. It doesn't say, "If you forgive SOME
sins ... " nor, "If you do/do not forgive ALL sins ...", but
rather it says, "If you do/do not forgive people (ANQRWPOIS)
their (TA) sins ... " -- and the consequence is: God will/will not
forgive you."
Moreover the Jesus-traditions in the gospels drive home
this principle repeatedly. Think of Peter's question about
the number of times one should forgive a brother who sins
(Matt 18:21-22 and the parable that follows immediately
with its "punch line":
34 KAI ORGISQEIS hO KURIOS AUTOU PAREDWKEN AUTON
TOIS BASANISTAIS hEWS hOU APODWi PAN TO OFEILOMENON.
35 hOUTWS KAI hO PATHR MOU hO OURANIOS POIHSEI hUMIN,
EAN MH AFHTE hEKASTOS TWi ADELFWi AUTOU
APO TWN KARDIWN hUMWN
> From: George F Somsel
>
> Note what A.T. has to say regarding time in the subjunctive
> "(α) No Time Element in the Subjunctive and Optative. There is only relative time (future), and that is not due to the tense at all. The subjunctive is future in relation to the speaker, as is often true of the optative, though the optative standpoint is then more remote, a sort of future from the standpoint of the past."
> If Robertson is correct (and I am certain he is), it cannot be gnomic or specify time in any way.
>
> From: Alastair Haines afhaines at tpg.com.au
> ... so we can forget time.
>
> Pulling back from imagining episodes where individuals forgive or fail to forgive, frees things up from reading Matthew as saying "forgive or be damned."
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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