[B-Greek] Adverbs
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Mar 30 04:41:47 EDT 2011
On Mar 30, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Sarah Madden wrote:
> Carl --
> When you wrote the following, didn't you intend to say "verb" instead of
> "noun" in reference to the categories an adverb can modify?
> Here's what you wrote::
>
> The dead grammarians (myself included?) used to say (as I still do) that
> an adverb can and does modify an adjective, a *noun*, or another adverb --
> or any phrase or clause that functions adjectivally, nominally, or
> adverbially. One live grammarian I know likes to speak -- and I think
> he's right -- of adverbs functioning as sentence modifiers.
Jawohl! Genau so. Yes. And thanks for watching out for a doddering old dead grammarian!
Carl
> ================================
>
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> For three days (biblical accounting) this message has lain unanswered in my
>> inbox. Perhaps my own tentative response will stir the dust a bit and
>> evoke some alternative views on the question. General questions like this
>> tend to simmer or fester or whatever a while before being taken off the
>> burner or treated or whatever. It's different with specific texts about
>> which specific questions are raised: everybody knows what he/she
>> thinks about the question -- almost without thinking at all!
>>
>> On Mar 26, 2011, at 2:43 AM, =) <p1234567891 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Can I ask if there is any way to tell what an adverb modifies? It seems
>> to
>>> me that it can modify one or more of:
>>> a complete clause, a verb clause, another adverb (including adjectival or
>>> prepositional or dative clause), and even a noun clause.
>>
>> The dead grammarians (myself included?) used to say (as I still do) that
>> an adverb can and does modify an adjective, a noun, or another adverb --
>> or any phrase or clause that functions adjectivally, nominally, or
>> adverbially. One live grammarian I know likes to speak -- and I think
>> he's right -- of adverbs functioning as sentence modifiers.
>>
>>> If so, how do I differentiate between the various possibilities when the
>>> adverb can be used in more than one way?
>>> Or is my concept of adverbs inaccurate?
>>> For example I wanted to classify the following:
>>>
>>> "prwteron" = "firstly / initially" (adv.) / "former" (adj.)
>>> "prwton" = "first" (adv.) / "first" (adj.)
>>> "prwtos" = "first / foremost" (adj.) / "first" (adv.)
>>
>> I might add TO PRWTON, perhaps even TA PRWTA to
>> that list.
>>
>> But then, I would quickly go on (before somebody beats me to it
>> (you know who you are!):
>>
>> (1) whether any of the forms you have listed functions
>> adverbially can be answered only when it appears within a
>> context. They don't function at all adverbially or adjectivally
>> in isolation from a context.
>>
>> (2) I personally would not consider how to English any
>> particular word or expression until I have understood it
>> in its Greek context; that's why I tend to think that glossaries
>> are of little real help.
>>
>>> So I considered these to have the following meanings:
>>>
>>> [John 6:62] "ean oun qewrhte ton uion tou anqrwpou anabainonta opou hn to
>>> proteron"
>>> = "therefore { if { you behold { the son ( of man ) ( going up ( where {
>>> [he] was ( initially ) } ) ) } } ? }"
>>> (where "initially" modifies the verb "[he] was")
>>
>> I'd be more inclined to say that TO PROTERON as an adverbial phrase
>> modifies the whole adverbial clause hOPOU HN, but you could perhaps
>> as well say it modifies simply HN. Of course hOPOU HN TO PROTERON
>> is a relative adverbial clause modifying an implicit EKEI.
>>
>>> [Heb 7:27] "... proteron uper twn idiwn amartiwn qusias anaferein epeita
>> twn
>>> tou laou ..."
>>> = "... to offer up { sacrifices } ( firstly ) ( for ( [their] ) ( own )
>>> sins ) ( subsequently ) ( [for] the [sins] ( of the people ) ) ..."
>>> (where "firstly" modifies the adverbial prepositional clause "for [their]
>>> own sins" and also "subsequently" similarly)
>>
>> I'd take PROTERON to modify hUPER TWIN IDIWN hAMARTIWN
>> and EPEITA to modify (hUPER) TWN TOU LAOU (hAMARTIWN).
>>
>>> [Rom 1:16] "... dunamis gar qeou estin eis swthrian panti tw pisteuonti
>>> ioudaiw te prwton kai ellhni"
>>> = "... for { [it] is { power ( of God ) ( for salvation ) } ( to ( all )
>>> the [ones] ( who believe ) ) ( both ( to Jew ) ( first ) and ( to Greek )
>> )
>>> }"
>>> (where "first" modifies the adverbial dative clause "to Jew")
>>
>> Yes. But again, it seems to me you're putting the cart before the
>> horse, talking about what the English translated word modifies. I'd
>> prefer to talk wholly in terms of the Greek.
>>
>>> But I do not quite understand the following:
>>>
>>> [Rom 1:8] "prwton men eucaristw tw qew mou dia ihsou cristou uper pantwn
>>> umwn ..."
>>> ?= "( first ) ( indeed ) I thank { ( my ) God } ( through Jesus Christ )
>> (
>>> for you ( all ) ) ..."
>>> (where "first" and "indeed" both modify the complete clause "I thank my
>> God
>>> ...")
>>
>> I'd understand PRWTON here as governing everything from verse 8 through
>> verse 12. Verse 13 with its DE answers the PRWTON MEN of verse 8.
>> And here I'd say that PRWTON governs the whole sequence. It could be
>> Englished, "First of all ... " or "In the first place ... " or "(1) ... "
>>
>>> [1 Cor 15:46] "all ou prwton to pneumatikon alla to yucikon epeita to
>>> pneumatikon"
>>> ?= "but { [it] [is] not ( first ) { the spiritual } but { the soulish } }
>> {
>>> [it] [is] ( subsequently ) { the spiritual } }"
>>> (where "first" modifies "[it] [is]")
>>> ?= "but { { first } [is] not { the spiritual } but { the soulish } } (
>>> subsequently ) [it] [is] { the spiritual }"
>>> (where "first" is an adjective)
>>
>> There's a problem here of ellipsis. I'd say that OU PRWTON probably
>> modifies an understood GINETAI or EGENETO, and that EPEITA
>> works the same way.
>>
>> I must say, this whole business of word-for-word translation is
>> disturbing. As your initial question seems to indicate, you do readily
>> understand that words do not signify by themselves but only in a
>> context. First understand the Greek words as a sequential unit; if
>> you want to translate, wait until after you clearly understand what
>> the Greek says. Translation, I submit, is NOT a method of coming
>> to understand what the Greek says.
>>
>>
>>> [2 Pet 1:20] "touto prwton ginwskontes oti pasa profhteia grafhs idias
>>> epilusews ou ginetai"
>>> ?= "knowing { this } ( first ) { that { { ( every ) prophecy } does not
>>> come to be ( of ( [one's] ) ( own ) explanation ) } }"
>>> (where "first" modifies "knowing")
>>> ?= "knowing { ( first ) this } { that { { ( every ) prophecy } does not
>>> come to be ( of ( [one's] ) ( own ) explanation ) } }"
>>> (where "first" modifies "this")
>>
>> Here again, I really think that adding these English glosses only
>> obfuscates the problem under consideration.
>>
>> I'd think that PRWTON governs TOUTO (words like this and MONON
>> that restrict the preceding word often are used postpositively), but
>> it could perhaps as well or better be said that MONON governs the
>> whole participial phrase, TOUTO GINWSKONTES.
>>
>>> And I cannot figure out what "prwtos" means when it is declined as an
>>> adjective but used as an adverb...
>>>
>>> [John 1:41] "euriskei outos prwtos ton adelfon ton idion simwna ..."
>>> ?= "{ this [one] ( first ) } finds { ( [his] ) ( own ) brother } { Simon
>> }
>>> ..."
>>> (it does not mean "this first [one]", does it?)
>>> (but what then is the difference between "euriskei outos prwtos" and
>> "prwton
>>> euriskei outos"?)
>>
>> No, it doesn't mean "this first one." It means "he finds, before doing
>> anything else"
>> This is an idiomatic way that ordinal adjectives work in Greek -- one must
>> get
>> used to it; they agree with the subject but function like adverbs. For
>> example,
>> hOUTOS ESCATOS HLQEN = "He got there last" or "He was the last one
>> to arrive." When you've read enough Greek, you won't ask questions like
>> this;
>> you will see this sort of thing over and over.
>>
>>> [Luke 2:2] "auth h apografh prwth egeneto hgemoneuontos ths surias
>> kurhniou"
>>> ?= "{ this enrollment ( first ) } came to be ( when { { Cyrenius }
>> governed
>>> { Syria } } )"
>>> (if it means "this first enrollment", as ASV interprets it, why is John
>> 1:41
>>> interpreted differently?)
>>>
>>> Is the difference between "prwton" as an adverb and "prwtos" declined as
>> an
>>> adjective not semantic but purely grammatical?
>>
>> This PRWTH has commonly been understood as an adverbial usage construed
>> with EGENETO, "This registration first took place when Qurinius was
>> governing Syria ... " That would be another instance of the adverbial usage
>> of an ordinal adjective.
>>
>> HOWEVER, this particular verse was the subect of a now celebrated blog
>> entry by list-member Stephen Carlson, an eminent lawyer who is now teaching
>> beginning Greek at Duke. Stephen has understood this verse in a different
>> way and probably should, when he can find the time, either give the URL of
>> his blog entry from two or three years back or briefly outline his
>> understanding
>> of this text. It is a very problematic text, and the URL of his blog entry
>> would
>> probably be very helpful. I don't have it ready to hand.
>>
>> One last thing (is that an adverb?): I would seriously urge you to drop the
>> whole procedure of interposing English glosses between the Greek text under
>> consideration and your effort to analyze the construction. The construction
>> should be analyzed in the Greek text first; Englishing it can only make
>> sense
>> after the Greek text has come to make good sense to you.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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