From: Carsten Schmelzer (storch@storchsites.de)
Date: Fri Apr 06 2001 - 11:21:49 EDT
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>dear bgreekers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you for your answers. maybe the
differnces between german and english are bigger than i thought (although i read
a lot of english i seldom speak or write). in german the difference between
imperative and indicative is big. and so a translation like "töten wirst du
nicht" (mat 5:21, translation walter jens) instead of "du sollst nicht töten"
(mat 5:21, elberfelder translation) sounds strange.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>there is indeed a theological currence, that
prefers the translation of simple future and i wonder if it is possible to
translate that way. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>maybe my question was not exactly enough: is it
possible (from the mere language-aspect) to translate a simple future in these
scripture?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and: is it for grammatical or for theological
reasons that theses scriptures are mostly translated as imperative?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>storch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>-----------------------------------------------------<BR>Carsten *Storch*
Schmelzer<BR>Jesus Freaks International<BR>Germany<BR><A
href="http://www.kultshockk.de">http://www.kultshockk.de></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=luckensm@northnet.com.au
href="mailto:luckensm@northnet.com.au">Richard and Drinda Luckensmeyer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=storch@storchsites.de
href="mailto:storch@storchsites.de">Carsten Schmelzer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 06, 2001 10:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [b-greek] the use of
future</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">Dear Carsten:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">There is no future imperative mood in
Greek. Only present active, pres. mid. and pass., aorist active, aorist
mid., and aor. passive forms exist. There is no future imperative
form. Since it is a commandment, the imperative force is equally there
with either will or shall and since the command involves the future there
is no other choice of mood or tense (except of course for the speaker wishing
to have an ongoing durative sense or a point action sense in which case the
aorist would be used). I think that your question has to deal with
the difference between the words shall and will. Here is a blurb in my
American dictionary about when to use shall or will, "The formal view on
the use of shall and will is that to indicate simple futurity shall is used in
the first person, will in the second and third; THEIR ROLES ARE REVERSED TO
EXPRESS DETERMINATION, COMMAND, inevitability, etc., while in
questions the choice depends on the form expected in the answer.
These rules apply to American usage only at the most formal level. In
general usage in the United States today will, in all persons, is used to
express futurity and usually to express DETERMINATION, etc., as
well."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> <FONT face="Century Schoolbook">So there you have it - it does not
matter which is used, they both work. Earlier formal writing in the U.S.
used shall for 2nd and 3rd persons indicating a command for the future.
Now-a-days we just don't usually distinquish either/or for casual
speech. In English we indicate a command by use of the exclamation point
at the end of the sentence. If you said, "You will love thy neighbor."
it would be simple futurity. But if you said, "You will love thy
neighbor!" the voice would put emphasis on the word will and simple
futurity would give way for the command mood. But 2nd person
future indicative would probably use shall in older formal writing and
the exclamation point would show the command. Greek has no exclamation
point so we determine the translation by context. Jesus used the present
tense to indicate durative action. We are commanded to do it and to
keep on doing it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">Richard Luckensmeyer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">cotton farmer, Wee Waa, NSW,
Australia</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=storch@storchsites.de href="mailto:storch@storchsites.de">Carsten
Schmelzer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu
href="mailto:b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu">Biblical Greek</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 06, 2001 9:33
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [b-greek] the use of
future</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in jesus quotation of the commandments he uses
very frequently the 2nd person singular future indicative (i.e.lk 10:27,mat
22:39). why is this form always translated as an
imperative?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (mat
22:39)". would it not be more exactly to translate: "you
will..."?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in about 10 german versions i just found one
(walter jens) who translates not an imperative but "normal
future".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is the futureform normally used as an
imperative?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>storch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>-----------------------------------------------------<BR>Carsten
*Storch* Schmelzer<BR>Jesus Freaks International<BR>Germany<BR><A
href="http://www.kultshockk.de">http://www.kultshockk.de></FONT></DIV>---<BR>B-Greek
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