[b-greek] Re: the use of future

From: Carsten Schmelzer (storch@storchsites.de)
Date: Fri Apr 06 2001 - 11:21:49 EDT


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>dear bgreekers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you for&nbsp;your answers. maybe the
differnces between german and english are bigger than i thought (although i read
a lot of english i seldom speak or write). in german the difference between
imperative and indicative is big. and so a translation like "töten wirst du
nicht" (mat 5:21, translation walter jens) instead of "du sollst nicht töten"
(mat 5:21, elberfelder translation) sounds strange.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>there is indeed a theological currence, that
prefers the translation of simple future and i wonder if it is possible to
translate that way. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>maybe my question was not exactly enough: is it
possible (from the mere language-aspect) to translate a simple future in these
scripture?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and: is it for grammatical or for theological
reasons that theses scriptures are mostly translated as imperative?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>storch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>-----------------------------------------------------<BR>Carsten *Storch*
Schmelzer<BR>Jesus Freaks International<BR>Germany<BR><A
href="http://www.kultshockk.de">http://www.kultshockk.de></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
  <A title=
luckensm@northnet.com.au
  href="mailto:luckensm@northnet.com.au">Richard and Drinda Luckensmeyer</A>
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=storch@storchsites.de
  href="mailto:storch@storchsites.de">Carsten Schmelzer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 06, 2001 10:45
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [b-greek] the use of
  future</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">Dear Carsten:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">There is no future imperative mood in
  Greek.&nbsp; Only present active, pres. mid. and pass., aorist active, aorist
  mid., and aor. passive forms exist.&nbsp; There is no future imperative
  form.&nbsp; Since it is a commandment, the imperative force is equally there
  with either will or shall&nbsp;and since the command involves the future there
  is no other choice of mood or tense (except of course for the speaker wishing
  to have an ongoing durative sense or a point action sense in which case the
  aorist would be used).&nbsp; I think that your question&nbsp;has to deal with
  the difference between the words shall and will.&nbsp; Here is a blurb in my
  American dictionary about when to use shall or will,&nbsp;"The formal view on
  the use of shall and will is that to indicate simple futurity shall is used in
  the first person, will in the second and third; THEIR ROLES ARE REVERSED TO
  EXPRESS DETERMINATION, COMMAND,&nbsp;inevitability, etc., while in
  questions&nbsp; the choice depends on the form expected in the answer.&nbsp;
  These rules apply to American usage only at the most formal level.&nbsp; In
  general usage in the United States today will, in all persons, is used to
  express futurity and usually to express DETERMINATION, etc., as
  well."</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;<FONT face="Century Schoolbook">So there you have it - it does not
  matter which is used, they both work.&nbsp; Earlier formal writing in the U.S.
  used shall for 2nd and 3rd persons indicating a command for the future.&nbsp;
  Now-a-days we just don't usually distinquish either/or for casual
  speech.&nbsp; In English we indicate a command by use of the exclamation point
  at the end of the sentence.&nbsp; If you said, "You will love thy neighbor."
  it would be simple futurity.&nbsp; But if you said, "You will love thy
  neighbor!" the voice would put emphasis on the word will and&nbsp;simple
  futurity would give way for the command mood.&nbsp;&nbsp;But 2nd&nbsp;person
  future indicative would probably&nbsp;use shall in older formal writing and
  the exclamation point would show the command.&nbsp; Greek has no exclamation
  point so we determine the translation by context.&nbsp; Jesus used the present
  tense to indicate&nbsp;durative action.&nbsp; We are commanded to do it and to
  keep on doing it.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">Richard Luckensmeyer</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook">cotton farmer, Wee Waa, NSW,
  Australia</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
    <A title=storch@storchsites.de href="mailto:storch@storchsites.de">Carsten
    Schmelzer</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
    title=b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu
    href="mailto:b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu">Biblical Greek</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 06, 2001 9:33
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [b-greek] the use of
    future</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><FONT
    face="Century Schoolbook"></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hello,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in jesus quotation of the commandments he uses
    very frequently the 2nd person singular future indicative (i.e.lk 10:27,mat
    22:39). why is this form&nbsp;always translated as an
    imperative?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (mat
    22:39)". would it not be more exactly to translate: "you
    will..."?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in about 10 german versions i just found one
    (walter jens) who translates not an imperative but "normal
    future".</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is the futureform normally used as an
    imperative?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thank you,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>storch</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>-----------------------------------------------------<BR>Carsten
    *Storch* Schmelzer<BR>Jesus Freaks International<BR>Germany<BR><A
    href="http://www.kultshockk.de">http://www.kultshockk.de></FONT></DIV>---<BR>B-Greek
    home page:
http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek>You are currently subscribed to
    b-greek as: [
luckensm@northnet.com.au]<BR>To unsubscribe, forward this
    message to leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu<BR>To subscribe, send
    a message to
subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>
---<BR>
B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek>
You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [
jwrobie@mindspring.com]<BR>
To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu<BR>
To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu<BR>
<BR>

</html>

</x-html>



This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Mon Feb 11 2002 - 18:40:24 EST