From: Jack Kilmon (jkilmon@historian.net)
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 - 14:22:04 EDT
dalmatia@eburg.com wrote:
>
> Paul S. Dixon wrote:
>
> > Even though the passage is a Johannine construct, the actual words spoken
> > by Christ here seem especially germane to the argument. Of course, we do
> > not know exactly what those words in Aramaic/Hebrew were. Nevertheless,
> > if it could be determined that the Aramaic/Hebrew knew of no such
> > equivalent distinction as found in the Greek AGAPAW and FILEW, and if the
> > same word would have been used for both, then this would certainly
> > support the synonymous interpretation of AGAPAS and FILEIS in Jn
> > 21:15-17.
>
> Hi Paul ~
>
> You are quite right here, if the assumption is that Christ did NOT
> speak Greek, or was not speaking Greek when these thoughts were
> spoken. Given the heterogeneity of His hearers ~ [Romans, Greeks and
> Jews] ~ And given the wide usage of Greek ~ I am very inclined to
> think that He did indeed speak it, at least publicly. This is,
> granted, a more private communication, so the issue seems rather
> flexible-plexible! I think, for starters, we can assume that Christ
> COULD speak Greek, eh?
>
> George
I am going to render this is Greek and interlinear Aramaic
in case some may be interested in the Aramaic rendering. I agree
with George that Jesus could speak Greek with enough competence to
communicate but I do not think that Kefa spoke Greek...that's why
he needed Mark. If these words are historically Yeshuine, they
would have been in Aramaic. The difference between these two
languages is that Aramaic is a "practical" language that has
ONE word that could have several meanings (a very idiomatic
language) while Greek had numerous words for one concept but
several nuances, Therefore the love of reverence AGAPH vs. the
emotional FILEI. The Aramaic, however was ONE word RXM.
Given Ch 21 was not part of the autograph John, I believe
the Yohannine community had a purpose for this appendage..that's
another thread. I believe, however, the AGAPAJ/FILEI was a
deliberate theological "play" on the single Aramaic rxm for a
given purpose and would bow to George's theological expertise
on that...might be interesting to discuss. I have not
researched the various textual variants, that may be an interesting
one for Jim's special expertise.
Greek: 21:15 (OTE OUN HRISTHSAN LEGEI TW SIMWNI PETRW (O
IHSOUJ,
When therefore they had dined, says to Simon Peter,
Jesus,
<Aram> kd dyn )$tryw )mr y$w( l'$m(own k)f),
SIMWN IWNA AGAPAJ ME PLEION TOUTON;
Simon, [son of] Jona, (do you)Love me more than these?
$m(own, br yown), rxm )nt ly ytyr mn hlyn?
LEGEI AUTW, NAI, KURIE SU OIDAJ (OTI FILW SE, LEGEI AUTW,
He says to him yes, Lord, you know I love you. He says to him,
)mr lh, )yn mry, )nt yd) )nt drxm )n) lk. )mr lh,
BOSKE TA ARNIA MOU. 16. LEGEI AUTW PALIN DEUTERON,
feed my lambs. He say to him again a second time,
r(y ly )mry. )mr lh twb dtrtyn zbnyn,
SIMWN IWNA, AGAPAJ ME; LEGEI AUTWN, NAI KURIE SU
OIDAJ
Soimon [son of] Jona, (do you) love me? He says to him, yes, Lord,
you know
$m(own br yown), rxm )nt ly? )mr lh, )in, mry, )nt
yd(
(OTI FILW DE, LEGEI AUTW, POIMAINE TA PROBATA MOU.
that I love you, He say to him, Shepherd my Sheep.
)nt drxm )n) lk, )mr lh y$w(, r(y ly (rby.
17. LEGEI AUTW TO TPITON, SIMWN IWNA, FILEIJ ME;
He says to him the third time, Simon [son of Jona] (do you) love
me?
)mr lh dtlt zbnyn, $m(own br yown) rxm )nt
ly?
)ELUPHQH (O PETRWJ (OTI EIPEN AUTW TO TRITON, FILEIJ
Was grieved Peter because he said to him the third time, (do you) love
vkryt lh lk)f) d)mr lh dtlt zbnyn, drxm
ME; KAI EIPEN AUTW, KURIE, SU PANTA OLDAJ SU GINWSKEIJ
me; and he said to him, Lord, you all things know, you know
ly? v)mr lh, mry kl mdm )nt xkm )nt, )nt yd(
(OTI FILW SE.
that I love you.
)nt drxm
Jack
-- Dâman dith laych idneh dânishMA nishMA Jack Kilmon (jkilmon@historian.net) http://www.historian.net
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