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RE: language, meaning and nature



            But science, or scientific enquiry isn't wrong, that's certainly
not my point. I am no Luddite.  It would be a curious particularity to
denigrate the advances made in medicine, transport or communications;
technological advances that daily contribute to our lives.  However, in
accord with Bob, I do question the 'Idea of Progress' implicit in the
scientific paradigm.  I would have it that the reflective, Cartesian (after
Descartes) conception of knowledge, is just one form of knowing, and that it
is not particularly revealing of how humans interact with the world (my
example of the saw was intended to offer another form of knowing based not
on reflection but on action).  There are more profound ways of knowing; this
is why The Idea of Progress is compromised. Just because we can collide
sub-atomic particles, see further into space, are ever making computers
faster and smaller; just because we seem to be able to do any-damn-thing we
technologically please, we are still no happier.

The Idea of Progress has a long history; implicit in the medieval Christian
idea of providence and joyously explicit in the Enlightenment. However, the
epitome of this teleological thinking is gloriously concluded in the
Philosophy of History by Hegel.  Hegel argues that not only in philosophy
and the arts, but in human history and religion too, rational progress is
demonstrable, if only we turn a 'rational eye' to look for it.  It is a
hideous book.  From his study in the department of philosophy at Berlin
University, Hegel oversees the progress of the world dialectic being played
out through time and culminating triumphantly in the words he engraves upon
his manuscript. It is bloated egocentrism and ethnocentrism.  And there is a
live thread of influence stretching down through our culture from the
nineteenth century that still imagines the West to be the pinnacle of
cultural evolution to which all other cultures aspire, whether they are
aware of it or not.  It is for this reason that the Afghanistan pc thread
was important; cultural hegemony is cultural hegemony whether the means are
through war or aid. (note to myself: what are the ramifications for pc in
light of this last point, considering that pc is (recognised with the label
pc at least) a western cultural construct - possible future discussion
thread!).

Robyn, yes, that is exactly what I am trying to express  'the conscious
separation between person and saw/tool has blurred'.  You pose the question
'- at this point are saw, person and log together in a state of simply
being?'  I would respond thus; the saw, person and log are together in one
way of being, a nexus of action (the person) and occurentness (literally
being available for, the saw and the log) unified in the intention of
gathering firewood.  However, the saw, person and log could all offer
different ways of being if, for example, the intention was to sculpt the
wood with the saw.  Here the saw would retain the same function, for a saw
is limited in its possibilities in that it is designed purely to saw: while
the log and the person can be seen to offer different possibilities of
being.

Finally, Robyn has surely brought up a topic that in some way has to be
discussed, though I am not sure how: 'The sacredness of the Celtic cauldron
lies in the emptiness - the potential of the emptiness is limitless'.  In
much of twentieth century thought, see especially Heidegger and Sartre (his
magnum opus is after all called Being and Nothingness), in Buddhism and now,
through Robyn, I discover in Celtic thought also, nothing, or rather
Nothing, is of fundamental importance.
Why is there not nothing?


Souscayrous


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Howard [mailto:rmhoward@omninet.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:51 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: language, meaning and nature

This is an interesting discussion for a permaculture group to be having -
but I think that there is a third point of view that exists apart from a
defence of science and progress as put forward by Sean and what I might call
(hopefully without offence) Souscayrous'  "other ways of knowing" argument.


Snip.

IN the interests of discussion let me just challenge once and for all the
notion that there is such a thing as human progress which seems to underlie
Sean Harrison's defence of scientific method. To argue that the world in
2001 is better off than it was in 1801 or 1901 is, I would contend, fraught
with problems. It would be like arguing that the world of Rome in 300 AD was
better than the world of Rome in 200 AD etc. At the time, it may seem
patently obvious - but within 50 years Rome was sacked and the world entered
a Dark Age ruled by petty tyrants and the occasional Arthurian legend. I
need hardly point out the consequences of the depletion of the earth's
resources and the unsustainability of current practices to people reading a
permaculture news list. Why are they here in the catacombs of the internet
after all?
Regards
Bob Howard


-----Original Message-----
From: permed@nor.com.au [mailto:permed@nor.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:25 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: RE: language, meaning and nature

when I turn to the next log to cut I find the saw already in
>my hand exactly at the place where the cut is to be made
>This is not magic.  It is the way we act in the world, our
>'being-in-the-world'
Maybe this is when the saw becomes part of you or extension of self (or
is that you have become part of the saw) - the conscious separation
between person and saw/tool has blurred. This 'being' involves a very
different 'knowing' to purely intellectual knowledge arising from
scientific impartiality which may describe the kind of saw, the metals
and processes in creating the blade, the size and angle of the teeth etc.
The state of 'being' with the saw arises from the familarity of 'doing',
becoming a willing participant. When we stop thinking I-am-me and
that-is-saw that the work flows naturally/effortlessly and is no longer
'working the saw' but simply 'being' - at this point are saw, person and
log together in a state of simply being?

snip

 Can we embrace the whole if we cannot accept the hole?
The sacredness of the Celtic cauldron lies in the emptiness - the
potential of the emptiness is limitless.
It is in the design of the invisible towards which the art of
permaculture strives.

Robyn
(I'm enjoying this thread & out of control - just wish my workload wasn't
so massive so I could participate more)


Djanbung Gardens Permaculture Education Centre
home to:
Permaculture Education
ERDA Institute Trust
Nimbin Eco-Village Project Office
Robyn Francis - permaculture designer & educator
PO Box 379, Nimbin NSW 2480 Australia
Ph 02-6689 1755 Fax 02-6689 1225
permed@nor.com.au  www.earthwise.org.au


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