I agree, Tad. I would think there is less diversity in a longer brew. It al=
l depends on the context of your approach. To put it simply, those looking =
to establish soil food webs batch brew. Those looking for something they ca=
nnot buy off a shelf with more "plant food" brew perpetually. That's how I =
think about it anyway. 
I just had a conversation with a microbiologist from our local University. =
He happened to be in the parking lot when I showed up for work waiting to p=
ick up his wife's CSA share. I have talked with him several times in the pa=
st and we have made plans to work together. His past emphasis was on E.coli=
 and he is now moving into fungi. They have identified a new species of fun=
gi that is found in concetrations of 10,000 micrograms per gram, much highe=
r than normal species in healthy conditions. I didn't have time to fully en=
gage him, but he said to me verbally without understanding everything he wa=
s saying to me that they could measure biological strength of organisms.
Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on how this could be done?
evan 
www.VortexBrewer.com 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Tad Hussey <tadhussey_at_...> wrote:
>
> Evan,
> 
> I think you have a valid point, in that there is a lot we don't know abou=
t 
> microbial interactions with plants in the rhizosphere.  As Tim has pointe=
d out, 
> there has been ongoing research in this field, conducted mostly in Europe=
.  I've 
> read a few papers that he's eluded to and they quite good.
> 
> I think this lack of knowledge is the very reason that ACT is so critical=
 in 
> organic systems.  It's a shotgun approach, as we attempt to put out the h=
ighest 
> levels of diverse microbes as possible (visible morphological differences=
 in 
> bacteria/archea, fungal hyphae, flagellates, and ciliates). This is why I=
 think 
> brewing for 24-36 hours (on average) is so critical.  Perpetual brews eli=
minate 
> that diversity, as monocultures become dominate in the tea.  I'm not sayi=
ng it 
> has zero benefit, but it's not going to contain anywhere near the diversi=
ty or 
> concentrations of microbial populations that you would have in a shorter =
brew.
> 
> Now personally, I'd probably be inclined to use a perpetual brew tea over=
 a 
> dormant or instant tea, with limited sets of organisms, but again we're 
> sacrificing the diversity that I believe is so critical, precisely becaus=
e there 
> is so much we don't know.  Let's get all the organisms out there in suffi=
cient 
> diversity and quantity and let the plant be in charge.  To use your baske=
tball 
> analogy, if it wants more "power forwards" or a good "center," then it's =
going 
> to put out exudates to increase that particular bacterial population.  Bu=
t it 
> needs to be in the brew in order for the plant to be able to access it, r=
ight? 
>  And that's what leads us back to the need for good diversity!
> 
> ~Tad
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: evanfolds <evan_at_...>
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, June 29, 2011 6:59:47 AM
> Subject: [compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients=
?
> 
>   
> Quite an intense review of humus, Tim. I skimmed it and read some of it, =
but not 
> all of it yet. 
> 
> 
> There are certainly those studying the technicalities of these natural 
> substances with great fervor and accomplishment, no doubt. What I was ref=
erring 
> too is the lack of emphasis on studying microbial balance and populations=
 
> towards the growth of plants. After all, the impulse from studying the li=
fe of 
> the soil is in the context of what comes out of it. At least that is my i=
mpulse. 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that if we started to connect what see under the scope wit=
h how 
> it helps plants grow that we could go a long way in establishing a baseli=
ne of 
> what soil "should" be. This would lend more credence to the recommendatio=
sn 
> given by labs. 
> 
> 
> Look at it from a mineral approach. You go the Extension Service and they=
 advise 
> you on how much ime to use to correct your pH on a piece of paper. Lime i=
s 
> comprised of Ca and Mg. What if you have a K deficiency? It's extremeely =
short 
> sighted and ignores the profound research done by Albrecht, et al in the =
40's. 
> We know the sweet spot in soil with miunerals, but not microbes. 
> 
> 
> Just evaluating what you see under the scope in regards to what you usual=
ly see 
> does not address how well that microbial balance and population works in =
the 
> soil in regards to growing healthy nutrient dense plants. I know there ar=
e some 
> at NC State that are beginning to address microbial balance in soil from =
this 
> perspective, but they are 50 years behind the mineral approach. 
> 
> 
> I think this is what Jason was referencing in his "good luck getting fund=
ing" 
> blurb. 
> 
> 
> By the way, Tim, great symopsis of your visual under the scope. I'm very =
much 
> looking forward to your DVD..
> 
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com 
> 
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Evan,
> > 
> > There are quite a few scientists researching how nutrients are cycled i=
n the 
> >rhyzosphere via predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa. Some of these=
 are 
> >Marianne Clareholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Vigdis Torsvik. =
Not only 
> >are many scientists studying this area but are also using DNA combined w=
ith 
> >direct microscopy to attempt to determine bacterial/archaeal and fungal=
 
> >specialties of which you speak. I have quite a number of papers I can se=
nd you 
> >but some are referenced on my webpage. [Did you read the paper on humus =
I posted 
> >for you?]
> > 
> > The thing about compost tea is that it is so simple to ascertain when y=
ou have 
> >the basic microbial population you are seeking for supporting the microb=
ial 
> >nutrient loop. The microbial nutrient loop refers fairly specifically to=
 
> >nutrients released by protozoa (mainly flagellates and naked amoebae) di=
rectly 
> >following consumption of bacteria/archaea. [this is not to slight the pr=
esence 
> >of supportive fungi] There are some who have a vested interest in compli=
cating 
> >this but it is not complicated. It is similar to me choosing whether to =
pay a 
> >lawyer $30K to file a patent for me or do the fairly simple work myself =
at a 
> >fraction of the cost. Lawyer's don't want lay people to learn their lang=
uage 
> >just like many laboratories don't wish people to learn they can count th=
eir own 
> >microbes. 
> >
> > 
> > When I brew a compost tea it may have 5,000 to 10,000 bacteria/archaea =
and 5 
> >flagellates per field and a hyphae complex every 10 fields at 18 hours o=
r it may 
> >take 36 hours. With a microscope it is not a guessing game. Besides bein=
g able 
> >to evaluate this and observe this basic diversity, I am also able to see=
 that I 
> >have some rigid flagellates which are round, some which are long and som=
e which 
> >are bumpy and that I have two very different looking plastic flagellates=
. From 
> >this observation I can ascertain that I have 5 species/genera of flagell=
ates. I 
> >might also observe that I have some tiny smooth testate amoebae and some=
 large 
> >rough shelled ones as well as some small directional spreading naked amo=
ebae and 
> >some larger finger type pseudopod naked amoebae, indicating 4 species/ge=
nera of 
> >amoebae. I may also observe 2 or more species/genera of ciliates. These =
are 
> >really easy to tell different types. Fungal hyphae is trickier but one c=
an learn 
> >to identify species by spore appearance but as mentioned earlier, if I s=
ee 
> >really different septal wall frequency, different colors and membranes, =
it 
> >usually follows that there are different species/genera of fungi present=
. I 
> >don't usually expect to see many nematodes in compost tea but in a compo=
st or 
> >soil sample, I can tell whether they are good nematodes which consume 
> >bacteria/archaea and cycle nutrients by observing their mouth action OR =
not so 
> >good root and fungal suckers. I can also tell a male from a female with =
a 
> >microscope. Rotifers, unlike nematodes thrive in a compost tea but they =
are 
> >kinda rare, except in some vermicompost. [unfortunately some information=
 out 
> >there has confused them with insect larvae] They are also great nutrient=
 
> >cyclers, as they consume bacteria/archaea. They are exciting to watch an=
d there 
> >are different species/genera which can be identified visually. = Diver=
sity 
> >
> > [NOTE: I use species/genera because I'm not sure which term is correct =
to use]
> > 
> > Of course there is a whole other level of diversity involved with micro=
bial 
> >species and there are things about compost tea, compost extract and comp=
ost 
> >which we do not understand yet. This is one reason I strive for the high=
est 
> >diversity in a brew so that I might apply the shotgun approach and allow=
 the 
> >soil and plants to select the necessary players needed at the time of 
> >application.
> > 
> > If I know that my soil or plant is suffering from a certain pathogen an=
d know 
> >the type of microbe which might contribute to controlling this then I mi=
ght be 
> >better off to purchase one of the those products which contain it. Or if=
 I wish 
> >to increase a specific type of free living nitrogen fixers or endomycorr=
hizal 
> >species then likewise I can apply spores of those species to the soil. S=
ome of 
> >these bacterial types are likely contained in compost tea but this is a =
totally 
> >different game than the home grower or farmer using ACT for the shotgun=
 
> >approach.
> > 
> > That's my take anyway.
> > 
> > Salutations,
> > Tim
> > 
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tad, I agree with you. IN NO WAY am I trying to undermine the importa=
nce and 
> >relevance of working with a microscope. It is vital. I'm simply trying t=
o point 
> >out exactly what you stated: "...frankly I don't know what all the diffe=
rent 
> >species and sub-species do in the rhizosphere anyway."
> > > 
> > > That's it. We don't know. It is my opinion that we need to couple wha=
t we are 
> >seeing under a scope directly with how it works with growing plants. Nob=
ody to 
> >my knowledge is doing this. 
> >
> > > 
> > > I also think we need to entertain a seperate metric of "microbial str=
ength" 
> >into our analysis here. Without accounting for the reletaive strength of=
 the 
> >same microbe from different sources, we are acting as if they are all th=
e same. 
> >This may make testing easier, but it does no justice to the end result w=
e all 
> >seek --> healthy biologically active soil that grows nutrient dense plan=
ts 
> >without pest & disease. 
> >
> > > 
> > > I too am appreciateive of being part of this group...peace & light
> > > 
> > > evan
> > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tad" <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Evan and Tim,
> > > > 
> > > > This discussion jumps around quite a bit, but I wanted to chime in =
on a few 
> >things.
> > > > 
> > > > First of all, I think the importance of testing is largely understa=
ted and 
> >many commercial manufacturers of brewers don't do proper testing before =
selling 
> >their brewers or making claims as to efficacy.  One SFI test is not suff=
icient 
> >in my opinion, but is a good starting point.  Successive microscope work=
 is 
> >better, even if it is qualitative in nature. 
> >
> > > > 
> > > > Ethan, you talk about "true diversity" as something we cannot see o=
r 
> >understand without DNA testing.  I have to agree with Tim here in that d=
irect 
> >microscopy is really the most effective methodology we have for evaluati=
ng 
> >microbial teas and extracts at this time.  DNA testing would really not =
give me 
> >much more information and is not realistic, as each brew would be differ=
ent, and 
> >frankly I don't know what all the different species and sub-species do i=
n the 
> >rhizosphere anyway.
> > > > 
> > > > However, I can tell the difference better a ciliate and a flagellat=
e.  I 
> >can see that they're both present in my tea and in good ratios.  I can s=
ee 
> >different morphology in the bacteria and whether it's motile or forming =
large 
> >areas on the slide of biomass.  This is the diversity I'm talking about.=
  It 
> >gives me data that I can then use to determine the quality of my product=
.
> > > > 
> > > > Every brew I've ever taken for longer than a few days lacks this di=
versity.  
> >DNA testing is not going to show anything surprising in this regard.  If=
 I'm 
> >unable to find fungal hyphae through direct microscopy, it's not going t=
o 
> >magically show up through other means of testing.
> > > > 
> > > > Our solution to this issue was to have hydro shops brew 1-2 times a=
 week, 
> >and customers just knew that if they wanted ACT, they would have to come=
 in on a 
> >Weds or a Saturday and those would be the days it's available for purcha=
se. 
> >
> > > > 
> > > > Some manufacturers claim you can refrigerate their tea or store it =
for a 
> >period of time.  I find this irresponsible and have yet to see anyone pr=
ovide 
> >data to show otherwise.  And personally, I don't see how they ever could=
.  With 
> >a properly made ACT, you've created an unsustainable amount of aerobic m=
icrobes 
> >at it's peak (avg 24-36 hours).  I don't believe there is a way to maint=
ain the 
> >diversity and concentrations of organisms over time.
> > > > 
> > > > As Tim stated, it would be relatively easy to test Evan's theory ab=
out 
> >plant available nutrients being more accessible in longer brews by just =
testing 
> >for nutrients say at 24 hours and again a week later from the same liqui=
d, 
> >without any additions. 
> >
> > > > 
> > > > I guess my point is that let's not throw out direct microscopy as t=
he 
> >standard to evaluating teas, just because it doesn't answer every questi=
on we 
> >might have.  Spend enough time behind a microscope and I think you'll fi=
nd that 
> >you can learn quite a bit about how your teas change over time.  For ins=
tance, I 
> >can make a bacterial dominated tea, fungal dominated tea, or flagellate=
 
> >dominated tea all from the same material, simply by adjusting the length=
 of the 
> >brewing cycle.
> > > > 
> > > > In order for out industry to continue to grow and gain legitimacy, =
I think 
> >it's important that we move away from testimonials, quasi-science, and 
> >unsubstantiated claims, and towards direct microscopy and methodology th=
at can 
> >be replicated in a variety of environments and with different brewers.
> > > > 
> > > > I think these discussions are beneficial as well.  There's a lot of=
 
> >different knowledge and experience floating around in here and I'm glad =
to be a 
> >part of the group!
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Tad
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply try=
ing to 
> >speak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustrate =
actual 
> >diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local lab who 
> >sepcializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear rive=
r in NC 
> >and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track contaminat=
ion 
> >sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engineer wher=
e it 
> >comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this without DNA te=
sting. 
> >That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable information out what y=
ou are 
> >doing. That is not my point. 
> >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual 
> >observation we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the NP=
K and 
> >crippled agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from an =
ashing 
> >experiment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectu=
al and 
> >animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will=
 be lost 
> >when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade the farm=
er to 
> >put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in nature. Fo=
llowing 
> >their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the farmer will forget =
the soil 
> >and lose sight of his inherent values and their influence." Source: Faun=
a in 
> >soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest that =
you are 
> >ignorant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and foll=
y of 
> >humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly through =
visual 
> >and quantifiable means. 
> >
> > > > > 
> > > > > evan
> > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wr=
ote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since it is Sunday http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My=
_DVD 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microb=
ial 
> >perspective as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you need=
 nothing 
> >like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say tha=
t a 
> >device is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, protoz=
oa and 
> >fungal hyphae. Where does that come from?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what yo=
u have 
> >been describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so go=
od. They 
> >definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly poc=
kets but 
> >I will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files section he=
re which 
> >was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefined. [Even =
though 
> >some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potent=
ial for 
> >various nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but fo=
r now 
> >I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production of dat=
a if 
> >possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage consists=
 of 
> >video recordings of microbial populations.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Adios Amigo,
> > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how c=
an I?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on =
a 
> >perpetual brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological 
> >diversity, true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That i=
s not to 
> >say that it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying diff=
erent 
> >categories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > For instance, we get people confused about our biological pro=
ducts 
> >all the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this f=
or two 
> >reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our biolo=
gicals. 
> >They are created on a farm that has been in the same family for 350 year=
s and 
> >have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labeling laws, on=
ly 
> >certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This leaves people=
 to 
> >believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on this list may=
 take 
> >issue with that, but you should deal with the general public every day. =
Most 
> >people simply believe what they are told. It's the same when 99% of this=
 country 
> >believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian health in an ecosystem. M=
ost of 
> >the time they don't even know what an ecosystem is, they think microbes =
are the 
> >reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying to be ugly, its simply the truth. =
Not 
> >being able to claim biological existence on a label cripples people's ab=
ility to 
> >know about them. This has happened with "essential nutrients" with plant=
s. 
> >Plants can use 50-60 elements directly or indirectly (microbes all of th=
em as 
> >co-factors), yet the "experts" speak of 17 at the most.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in mod=
ern 
> >society is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and=
 
> >microbes) for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, wh=
at we 
> >need from them. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes,=
 is what 
> >function those microbes perform. We know very little about this consider=
ing 
> >estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identified,=
 for 
> >example. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Potential NEW microbe species: 
> >http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136207874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-t=
he-tree-of-life
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we ar=
e both 
> >humans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a bett=
er 
> >basketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at us =
under a 
> >microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with no natu=
ral 
> >stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simple state=
ment of 
> >truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with other organism=
s. These 
> >are not tiny programed machines, they are living life forms. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > What are "PGPR products"?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outsi=
de of 
> >individual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article on=
 a 
> >"smart community" or vortex bacteria ;) 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> >http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl=
e&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=89
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the bene=
fit from 
> >microbes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often it is=
 the 
> >assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant directly to=
wards a 
> >microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work done by micro=
bes for 
> >plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if the starter cant=
 come 
> >out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what if there is no tra=
iner or 
> >assistant coach? 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but w=
e all 
> >know the benefit of having a microbe help. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttr=
ium to 
> >help us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we kno=
w, but 
> >if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people's any=
more, 
> >microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has been implica=
ted in 
> >Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with people eatin=
g so 
> >much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarms. This is the=
 
> >importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read "Minerals f=
or the 
> >Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as=
 much as 
> >we think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human supposed =
to know 
> >how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach (human) p=
uts the 
> >wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards can't beat a we=
ll 
> >balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assist from the po=
int 
> >guard to dunk the ball. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biologica=
l 
> >teamwork, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to ca=
tch her 
> >on her pass? 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discu=
ssing, 
> >there may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directly =
except 
> >out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obstacle =
course 
> >and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what prevents people=
 from 
> >gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us being trained to=
 expect 
> >hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining potential truths.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are 
> >unmeasureable and unobservable. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a spec=
ies, 
> >cripples us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a l=
aw if it 
> >happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not work this=
 way, by 
> >design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of the anthropo=
cetric 
> >concept of the scientific method, again, while not worthless, is making =
"laws" 
> >for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature. In fact, they are 
> >counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit in the head by =
the 
> >apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discussing how the app=
le got 
> >up there to begin with. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life=
 force 
> >involved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referr=
ing too. 
> >Read Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as the gu=
ts of 
> >microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food" is co=
ntained 
> >in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or eat at will=
 
> >depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using soluble ar=
tificial 
> >nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found throughout teh soil =
and the 
> >drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as well. This accounts for =
initial 
> >higher yields, but is actually only obesity. His description resonates w=
ith me. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what =
you 
> >eat". It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their poo=
p, but 
> >we again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connection=
 here, 
> >but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic perspective=
: 
> >http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider mic=
robes to 
> >be responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are for=
 us in 
> >our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi in their=
s. This 
> >is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but most importantly=
 they 
> >make plant food in the cycle of life. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, wh=
ere does 
> >it go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be dir=
ectly, I 
> >presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutrients and =
natural. 
> >For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TOnic on a plant a=
nd it 
> >will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nutrient it will murde=
r the 
> >plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a human can never know.=
 We must 
> >be humble to this. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store al=
l the 
> >time with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when the=
y uised 
> >an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware on som=
e level 
> >the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this w=
ork. Are 
> >tehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I suspect =
there is 
> >a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Let me know on that DVD..
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_=
> 
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Evan;
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quan=
tified 
> >by DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archaea =
and 
> >fungi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/archa=
ea, 
> >flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, fungal =
hyphae. 
> >These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking outdoor=
s to see 
> >the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are also differen=
ces 
> >which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely different shapes=
 and 
> >motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume they are of diff=
erent 
> >genera but this is not hard and fast with this group. Likewise with fung=
al 
> >hyphae if they grow differently, produce different spores and throw down=
 septate 
> >at different distances, have different membranes, etc. I can conclude th=
ey are 
> >of different genera. With flagellates, ciliates and amoebae it is quite =
simple 
> >to discern different genera visually. And you don't need to know their n=
ame to 
> >know they are different. That is the diversity I'm looking for in a comp=
ost tea, 
> >soil or compost sample. Have you seen my DVD?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > > > > > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I beli=
eve 
> >humus creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the pr=
edators 
> >like protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cycle=
d to 
> >plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize only=
 30 to 
> >40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excrete is th=
e 60 to 
> >70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients which can be=
 
> >directly uptaken by plants.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of hum=
us is 
> >somewhat still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis o=
f it 
> >being formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that I=
 know 
> >of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the organic=
 
> >material is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular structu=
re 
> >(humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the originat=
ing 
> >organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate structur=
e 
> >(supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost te=
a would 
> >'hold' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken place=
, then 
> >it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nutrien=
ts are 
> >in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them through 'depend=
able' 
> >laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to be done witho=
ut any 
> >extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesis.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may =
have 
> >someplace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something whic=
h may be 
> >specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the case wi=
th the 
> >PGPR products.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wro=
te:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point ac=
ross 
> >otherwise. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but=
 nothing 
> >I can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew=
 
> >starting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily =
for 
> >reference and will report back.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibl=
y the 
> >diversity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining AC=
TUAL 
> >diversity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative impor=
tance. 
> >Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it i=
s not 
> >aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a garden=
 store 
> >they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly 
> >interested in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully=
 so. But 
> >the aspect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact=
 that 
> >microbes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is=
 that 
> >the longer you brew the more plant food you have. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient c=
yclers, 
> >and I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers =
in their 
> >own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, or=
 plant 
> >food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant foo=
d you 
> >have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting to the =
perfect 
> >plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to think the li=
ving 
> >microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for sure?
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoo=
r grower 
> >who is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not 
> >necessarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His in=
terests 
> >may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing make=
s more 
> >sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and us=
e on 
> >every watering. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is intereste=
d in the 
> >long term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch b=
rewing 
> >and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > The point is, we don't know for sure. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > The future is defining applications and the need for cert=
ain 
> >microbes in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew =
times 
> >that encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has=
 not 
> >been done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty=
 much 
> >shooting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that warra=
nt 
> >progress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who 
> >discovered that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damag=
e in 
> >plants. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the=
 leaf 
> >surface by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstal=
izes the 
> >moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use=
 a food 
> >source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the potetnial=
 
> >applications, but this is the future. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wre=
nch into 
> >these ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes =
as if 
> >they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you canno=
t see 
> >biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis c=
an only 
> >get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences growing=
 plants. 
> >I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and sourcews with =
plant 
> >growth...and this is the most important thing! 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodyn=
amic 
> >method compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged =
to 
> >operate in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a =
post a 
> >couple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more=
, they 
> >develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children ar=
e they 
> >going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll r=
eport 
> >back...peace
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegood=
job_at_> 
> >wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I=
'd be 
> >more interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (B=
TW I 
> >don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do belie=
ve that 
> >a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more ben=
eficial 
> >than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried out h=
ave 
> >wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quite devo=
ured by 
> >bacteria.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO=
2 I'd be 
> >interested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college =
growing 
> >program and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airl=
ift 
> >brewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we=
 started 
> >the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar. I=
 checked 
> >the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteria/arch=
aea, 
> >flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morning shut=
 it 
> >down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again. I did no=
t take 
> >the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours were beginnin=
g to 
> >show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliates and less flag=
ellates. 
> >Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I don't know. But it wa=
s on its 
> >way to being overun by ciliates. We've been told by some in the field, t=
his is a 
> >bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutrients but I think the lack of div=
ersity 
> >is not great.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbl=
ed on.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_>=
 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using=
 a 
> >Vortex Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea=
 created 
> >in this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once=
 per 
> >week. In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a =
60 
> >gallon unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certi=
an 
> >amoutn of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works=
 great. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but=
 also on 
> >a "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When=
 
> >attaining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this p=
rocess 
> >creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the gut=
s of 
> >bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable=
 
> >biological product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be pur=
tchased 
> >from a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be=
 more 
> >important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or in=
door 
> >gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating so=
il food 
> >web. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer =
to every 
> >gardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with =
a brew 
> >that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and=
 never 
> >have we had a negative response. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units =
in this 
> >capacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personall=
y tested 
> >it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compos=
t tea, 
> >but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - 
> >Carruthers" <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamina=
tion if 
> >you continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast a=
gain and 
> >again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the=
 
> >discussions on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is no=
t 
> >necessary. Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients =
in the 
> >compost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if=
 using 
> >the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench. 
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups=
.com 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   New guy here. I've searched through the archives =
and 
> >haven't found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help m=
e out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going =
by, 
> >draining off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would wi=
th a 
> >sourdough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well?=
 As an 
> >urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as po=
ssible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Received on Fri Jul 01 2011 - 10:53:39 EDT