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RE: [compost_tea] Any Comments or reply to this?



Hello Everyone,
 
I figured this is a good time for me to chime in.
 
I don't know who wrote the original post on BDnow, but if they are talking about the Alternative Viticulture Meeting this past Tuesday and Wednesday in Middletown PA, then they are seriously mistaken.  Myself and Don Lotter both presented at this meeting and I did listen to both Vicki's and Will's talks.  I recall Vicki stressing the importance of determining the purpose of the compost / compost tea ( for nutrients, disease suppression, mulch, ect.) and making the tea appropriate to the purpose.  I do remember her stating that the better diversity and enumeration, the better the tea was, which is not consistent with the post from BDnow ( >Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves.) I think Vicki would say "work for what"? She did however mention the whole E. coli issue, and maybe overstressed that caution was needed to prevent E. coli in your compost and compost tea.
 
I also think that Will's presentation was fair, and he certainly did not say anything bad about aerobic compost tea.  He merely stated that in Europe, farmers have not embraced the new concepts of aerobic compost tea.  He went on to say that the old-unaerated compost tea is popular over there and that this was not anaerobic, simply unaerated.  He said it is often the nutrients that have recently become popular to add to compost tea that actually cause the lack of oxygen, and change in microbial community (to support anaerobes).  I certainly did not hear him say that aerobic compost tea is unfounded, unscientific hysteria and I think he deserves a bit more respect than people often give him on this list.  However, I did find it amusing that he said that his colleague Andreas Trankner invented compost tea (he was referring to the unaerated original type).  
 
Just so you don't get the wrong idea about what I trying to say here, I would also like to comment on Don Lotter's presentation.  Don brought a great balance to the meeting.  Before his presentation, Elaine was not mentioned once!  Don stated that there is another side to compost tea and reported on Elaine's work and SFI.  He told them about the percent leaf coverage research (70% or greater for disease suppression).  Don told them that most of the experts that he talked to actually had their tea tested with both labs, BBC and SFI.  He also gave them the low down on E. coli and the scare stories that have been published in the past.  He made the point that compost teas have been used since the 1920's (mostly by BD farmers) and that there has NEVER been a reported case of someone getting sick from compost tea.  He mentioned that all of the E. coli scare stories originated from Denis Avery attacking organic farming with claims of "Deadly Microbes on Organic Food" a segment that appeared on the news program 20/20.  They actually had to publicly apologize for misquoting scientists and airing that trash.   
 
At the end of the meeting I did talk to one compost tea "expert" that stated that over the years he found that the results from the SFI lab had helped him more than the BBC lab results in perfecting his tea to do what he wanted it to do, so thats a good sign right!
 
I also talked to George Hahn (wormgold) who is currently fighting with officials in CA who are making it extremely hard for him to be permitted to treat sick palm trees in Beverly Hills with his vermicompost product, even though it has been proven to inhibit the particular disease that the palm trees are dying from.  I think he is going to try and get his product listed by the EPA as an acceptable "pesticide", which is really weird - vermicompost pesticide.  But I guess if you want to use your product to treat a disease problem on public land, it better be registered with the EPA.  
 
I presented information about our upcoming compost tea project down here at The Rodale Institute and I was criticized about the numbers in my economic analysis slide.  I stated that one vineyard found with their chemical management they were spending $427/A and with their compost tea system they only spent $32/A, with the same level of suppression / control.  So, Bill I appreciate your input about your pesticide costs.  I would be interested in hearing about the details of your spray program, perhaps I will contact you off-list.    
 
So my take home message, lets all try not to get caught up in the drama of the whole compost tea controversy and please try not to get offended with anything I have said.
 
Matthew Ryan
Research Technician
The Rodale Institute
611 Siegfriedale Road
Kutztown, PA 19530
(610) 683-1405
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: wpb@sympatico.ca [mailto:wpb@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:06 PM
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Any Comments or reply to this?

I am a "coventional" commercial grape grower in the Niagara Penninsula. 2002 was a normal year for disease pressure, and spray schedules had to be maintained. The ONLY reason I decided to throw caution to the wind and use compost tea was for disease suppression and reducing my pesticide bill. I achieved that. I saved close to 75% of my previous years spray bill. And I used no insecticide. This was on 30 acres.
Bill


RiverValley wrote:
This was posted on the BDnow! list server.
 
I personally find it very interesting, any comments?
 
daniel
 
Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots
of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced
growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to
be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be.
 
Alan York asks people to ask the hard questions. He says a hard
question right now is 'Do you know of a vineyard that has effectively
controlled foliar disease with compost tea for three seasons.'  He's
willing to back this question down to one season. (The unusually dry
summer this past year has eleviated foliar diseases across the board,
tea or no tea.)
 
Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this
conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a
push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves.
She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds in the
teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were not
necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly
dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton  stated that there is not need
for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is
unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost
tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar
disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about
it folks:
 
Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales people in Pennsylvania have
received letters from the EPA telling them that they cannot sell
their products as disease control products because there is NO
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE.
 
Again - I'm sharing this info for your own evaluation. I've got egg
on my face, of course.
 
-Allan
----- Original Message -----
From: < wpb@sympatico.ca >
To: < compost_tea@yahoogroups.com >
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Why have regs, and the ICTC

> Elaine,
> Thanks for your response, and all your points were well taken. But
> believe me, it's just the tip of the  iceberg.  I too am eagerly waiting
> for responses to Laura's questions, and I believe that since this was
> the venue chosen to solicit members, this is where the answers should
> be. I feel this was just a retaliatory response to the "big industry"
> association, and might lack the necessary thought and substance to be
> viable. I hope I am proven very, very wrong. I haven't eaten crow for
> quite some time, but I ALWAYS carry some A-1 sauce with me.
>
> Bill Baranick
>
>
>
soilfoodweb@aol.com wrote:
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