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RE: [compost_tea] Any Comments or reply to this?
Hello
Everyone,
I
figured this is a good time for me to chime in.
I
don't know who wrote the original post on BDnow, but if they are talking about
the Alternative Viticulture Meeting this past Tuesday and Wednesday in
Middletown PA, then they are seriously mistaken. Myself and Don Lotter
both presented at this meeting and I did listen to both Vicki's and Will's
talks. I recall Vicki stressing the importance of determining the purpose
of the compost / compost tea ( for nutrients, disease suppression, mulch, ect.)
and making the tea appropriate to the purpose. I do remember her
stating that the better diversity and enumeration, the better the tea was,
which is not consistent with the post from BDnow ( >Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this
conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a push
towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves.) I think Vicki would say "work for what"? She did however mention the whole E. coli issue, and maybe
overstressed that caution was needed to prevent E. coli in your compost and
compost tea.
I also
think that Will's presentation was fair, and he certainly did not say anything
bad about aerobic compost tea. He merely stated that in Europe, farmers
have not embraced the new concepts of aerobic compost tea. He went on to
say that the old-unaerated compost tea is popular over there and that this was
not anaerobic, simply unaerated. He said it is often the
nutrients that have recently become popular to add to compost tea that
actually cause the lack of oxygen, and change in microbial community (to support
anaerobes). I certainly did not hear him say that aerobic compost tea
is unfounded, unscientific hysteria and I think he deserves a bit more respect
than people often give him on this list. However, I did find it
amusing that he said that his colleague Andreas Trankner invented compost tea
(he was referring to the unaerated original
type).
Just
so you don't get the wrong idea about what I trying to say here, I would also
like to comment on Don Lotter's presentation. Don brought
a great balance to the meeting. Before his presentation, Elaine was
not mentioned once! Don stated that there is another side to compost tea
and reported on Elaine's work and SFI. He told them about the percent leaf
coverage research (70% or greater for disease suppression). Don told them
that most of the experts that he talked to actually had their tea tested with
both labs, BBC and SFI. He also gave them the low down on E. coli and the
scare stories that have been published in the past. He
made the point that compost teas have been used since the 1920's (mostly by
BD farmers) and that there has NEVER been a reported case of someone getting
sick from compost tea. He mentioned that all of the E. coli scare
stories originated from Denis Avery attacking organic farming with claims of
"Deadly Microbes on Organic Food" a segment that appeared on the news program
20/20. They actually had to publicly apologize for misquoting
scientists and airing that trash.
At the
end of the meeting I did talk to one compost tea "expert" that stated that over
the years he found that the results from the SFI lab had helped him more than
the BBC lab results in perfecting his tea to do what he wanted it to do, so
thats a good sign right!
I also
talked to George Hahn (wormgold) who is currently fighting with officials
in CA who are making it extremely hard for him to be permitted to treat
sick palm trees in Beverly Hills with his vermicompost product, even though
it has been proven to inhibit the particular disease that the palm trees
are dying from. I think he is going to try and get his product listed by
the EPA as an acceptable "pesticide", which is really weird - vermicompost
pesticide. But I guess if you want to use your product to treat
a disease problem on public land, it better be registered with the
EPA.
I
presented information about our upcoming compost tea project down here at The
Rodale Institute and I was criticized about the numbers in my economic analysis
slide. I stated that one vineyard found with their chemical
management they were spending $427/A and with their compost tea
system they only spent $32/A, with the same level of suppression /
control. So, Bill I appreciate your input about your pesticide
costs. I would be interested in hearing about the details of your
spray program, perhaps I will contact you off-list.
So my
take home message, lets all try not to get caught up in the drama of the whole
compost tea controversy and please try not to get offended with anything I have
said.
Matthew Ryan
Research Technician
The Rodale Institute
611 Siegfriedale Road
Kutztown, PA
19530
(610) 683-1405
-----Original Message-----
From: wpb@sympatico.ca
[mailto:wpb@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:06
PM
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re:
[compost_tea] Any Comments or reply to this?
I am a "coventional" commercial grape grower in the Niagara
Penninsula. 2002 was a normal year for disease pressure, and spray schedules
had to be maintained. The ONLY reason I decided to throw caution to the wind
and use compost tea was for disease suppression and reducing my pesticide
bill. I achieved that. I saved close to 75% of my previous years spray bill.
And I used no insecticide. This was on 30
acres.
Bill
RiverValley wrote:
This was posted on the BDnow! list
server.
I personally find it very interesting, any
comments?
daniel
Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the
most astounding upshots
of this week's conference was the chance to meet
with experienced
growers who have worked with compost tea and who have
found teas to
be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim
them to be.
Alan York asks people to ask the hard
questions. He says a hard
question right now is 'Do you know of a
vineyard that has effectively
controlled foliar disease with compost tea
for three seasons.' He's
willing to back this question down to one
season. (The unusually dry
summer this past year has eleviated foliar
diseases across the board,
tea or no tea.)
Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who
spoke at this
conference, felt that the push to diversity and high
counts is not a
push towards teas that really work on the soils or even
the leaves.
She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds
in the
teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were
not
necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly
dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton stated that there is not
need
for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is
unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost
tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar
disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about
it folks:
Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales
people in Pennsylvania have
received letters from the EPA telling them
that they cannot sell
their products as disease control products because
there is NO
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE.
Again - I'm sharing this info for your own
evaluation. I've got egg
on my face, of course.
-Allan
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:57
AM
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Why have regs,
and the ICTC
>
Elaine,
> Thanks for your response, and all your points were well
taken. But
> believe me, it's just the tip of the
iceberg. I too am eagerly waiting
> for responses to Laura's
questions, and I believe that since this was
> the venue chosen to
solicit members, this is where the answers should
> be. I feel this
was just a retaliatory response to the "big industry"
> association,
and might lack the necessary thought and substance to be
> viable. I
hope I am proven very, very wrong. I haven't eaten crow for
> quite
some time, but I ALWAYS carry some A-1 sauce with me.
>
> Bill
Baranick
>
>
> soilfoodweb@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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