From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 2 18:05:48 2000 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:05:48 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0941183004 0000000919 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Oct 28 10:24:37 1999 -0400 Received: from franklin.oit.unc.edu (franklin.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.59]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28922 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:24:39 -0600 From: Skye Reply-To: "permaculture" Organization: Instituto de Permacultura de Mexico AC, http://www.tortuga.com/permacultura MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "permaculture" Subject: New Web Pages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 Hola tod@s Just a quick note to let everyone know that there is now a Permaculture WEB Page covering what is happening in Mexico - some of it is in spanish and some in English - maybe you'd like to check it out http://www.tortuga.com/permacultura And I have also put up the start of a page for those interested in Participatory Processes - ie for those who feel to work with people, rather than play the know-it-all-PC-expert. To me this is the People Care part of our ethics - but I won't get into that rave here - it is not quite complete - and if anyone wants to add further articles, links etc let me know - if could build into the Permaculture People (Zone 0) page!!!! http://www.tortuga.com/participation Thats enough for now Keep growing Skye -- Skye - Sevilla #312, Col. Portales, CP 03300, DF México. 5539 0716 http//www.tortuga.com/permacultura Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C. Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y economía comunitaria. --- You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: london@metalab.unc.edu To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-permaculture-75156P@franklin.oit.unc.edu From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 04:53:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA15599 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 04:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA24834 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 04:11:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA24634 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 04:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA31973 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:10:37 +0200 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07422 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:11:24 +0200 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 29 Oct 99 10:03:50 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 29 Oct 99 10:03:50 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:03:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: BSE update Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <14F8061F83@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 just for info: PARIS, Oct 25, (AFP) - A new case of madcow disease, probably due to cross contamination between animal feed, has been detected in a herd of cattle in western French region of Mayenne, the Agriculture Ministry announces Monday. The ministry said in a communique that the animal infected in Mayenne was born in 1994, four years after the ban imposed on animal feed using meat and bones which were considered the main reason for madcow disease or bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE). Officials said France has shown a rise in the number of madcow cases since 1991 -- a total of 71 cases -- probably due to cross contamination between feed for cattle, pigs and fowl. They said that as late as August of 1996, animal feed for pigs and fowl still included such ingredients as remains of a cow's central nervous system, considered a high risk for madcow disease. Although such matter is now destroyed, it has an incubation period of five years and scientists say they expect new cases of madcow disease in France until the end of 2001. The latest case detected in Mayenne brings to 22 the number of cows infected since the start of the year in France. As in each case, the entire herd was destroyed to prevent the disease spreading. klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 05:30:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA15824 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 05:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA03564 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 05:08:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA03477 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 05:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.43 (mx3-29.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.43]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA24087; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 04:05:24 -0500 Message-ID: <381966FB.362B@smallfarms.com> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:21:00 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Subsidies and Priorities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 Yesterday Steve Suppan of IATP sent me a short piece by a Montana wheat farmer, Jerry Sikorski entitled "Oversupply or Monopoly?". It includes this passage: "Tiger Woods gets paid ten cents for having his picture on each box of Wheaties, and the farmer gets five cents for raising the wheat." Can this really be true? I hope someone will pursue this further. chuck Dear Chuck: With apologies to my fellow farmer Mr. Sikorski and the excellent people at IATP (http://www.iatp.org). Tiger Woods had a better year than we did.... Further apologies to Mr. Woods, the fine Asian American golfer. What if we did find that the figures are accurate? In my opinion, it will only confirm that General Mills and other major food labels are doing a better job of marketing our food than we are. I'm concerned that we would, to use a golf analogy, suffer paralysis by analysis. And apologies to Babe Ruth, too. Chuck, they out marketed, out promoted and out smiled us again, as they've done for the last thirty years. (Please don't research this one.) If anyone knows Mr. Sikorski, please tell him I owe him a free farm registration at smallfarms.com. If any farmer out there has a smile like Tiger Woods', you have a free registration for life! For regular small farmers who think they have little to smile about these days, the free registrations are still available. Register your farm today! glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com Tiger Woods simply had a better year than we did.... To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 08:36:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17268 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA13503 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:09:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13452 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailcore0.oh.voyager.net (mailcore0.oh.voyager.net [207.0.229.17]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25965 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (d70.as0.gnvl.oh.voyager.net [207.90.122.198]) by mailcore0.oh.voyager.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA71516 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008501bf2209$00b9f460$c67a5acf@oemcomputer> From: "Paul Schmitmeyer" To: "Sanet" Subject: chlorpyrifos Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:27:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Hi all, Just what is chloropyrifos? Thanks Paul To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 09:11:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17651 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14370 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:51:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14284 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26850 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26882>; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:00:29 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: "Paul Schmitmeyer" cc: "Sanet" Message-Id: <99Oct29.080029cdt.26882@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:49:16 -0500 Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 Paul asked: Just what is chloropyrifos? Pat replies: Chlorpyorphos is a broad spectrum, non-systemic insecticide sold by Dow-Elanco as Lorsban or Dursban. It works by contact, ingestion & vapour action (inhalant). It is used for control; of mites; aphids; cutworms; army worms; corn maggots; tarnish bugs; 'hoppers; diamondback moths & others in cereals, oilseeds, corn, sugar beets, sunflowers & potatoes. From Saskatchewan dept of Agriculture guide to chemical control. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 09:42:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18268 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01047 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:22:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01034 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA27702 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id IAA23607; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:20:56 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma021959; Fri, 29 Oct 99 08:19:49 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:19:49 -0500 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC2@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Paul Schmitmeyer'" Cc: Sanet Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:19:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Paul, > Just what is chloropyrifos? Chlorpyrifos (Lorsban, Dursban) is a moderately toxic, moderately persistent (in the environment, not in the body) organophosphate insecticide that is very widely used for many things like termite control, flea collars, foliar application, lawn insect control, in-furrow application (eg for rootworms), and indoors for ant and roach control. http://ace.orst.edu/cgi-bin/mfs/01/pips/chlorpyr.htm http://www.dowagro.com/main/product_results.asp Chlorpyrifos has been around for a long time, and has a good safety record, although a few people claim to be highly sensitive to it. The fact that traces of this can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of a problem. In fact, this is so widely used, it would be a surprise if you couldn't find it in your urine. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:00:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18687 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12126 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:40:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12047 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id NAA02677; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:06:19 GMT Message-ID: <38199B7D.ACB41EC0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:05:02 -0500 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: RE: Free range chickens Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 To: Mike Miller Yes, predation will be a factor in raising free range chickens. However, all is not hopeless. Big chickens w/broods and dutiful roosters can be pretty fiesty when it comes to the cat. If not, then try the .22 solution. A good dog (or 2) will help against ground varmits such as 'coons and 'possums. Plenty of cover in the form of evergreens, holly type bushes, etc. will help the chickens hide from owls and hawks (not to mention hiding from you). The 12 ga. solution, or a good dog (or 3) is often used to control the problems with coyotes and dump dogs. And yes, I speak from experience. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:13:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18935 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19974 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:49:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19963 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28442 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id IAA09261; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:48:01 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma008185; Fri, 29 Oct 99 08:47:33 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:47:33 -0500 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC3@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Paul Schmitmeyer'" Cc: Sanet Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:47:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 One of the URL's I posted doesn't work. Try this instead. Look under "U.S. label & MSDS System" for information about Lorsban and Dursban. http://www.dowelanco.com/ Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:47:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19572 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29026 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28884 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:06:25 -0400 (EDT) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from www.pcsia.com (unverified [206.162.14.2]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:02:45 -0500 X-ROUTED: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:02:44 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: MMiller Received: from [206.162.14.250] by www.pcsia.com with smtp id 091e283c ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991029085015.008f4560@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:50:15 -0500 To: Subject: Hybrid to OP Corn? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 >From: dmhinds@acnet.net >Date: 29 Oct 99 01:44:50 -0600 >Subject: Re[2]: Time and the "Benefit" of BT Corn You are saying then that with some work/?luck? I can take my hybrid and turn it into a stable Open-Pollinated variety with the same characteristics. Then why are we spending all this money on hybrid seeds? The farmers have no margin left to spend on unnecessary expenses. If true, it seems this would be a money saving way to go. After all farmers have the equipment, the land and the know-how to grow and harvest the crop, so why not develop our own open pollinated types that works best in our own area? What if every farmer devoted, say 2 acres to his own research? You would not lose the odd 20-70 dollars an acre from growing a regular crop and with a little of your own work, you would have the potential to save money in the long run. Another benefit would be mental. At least you would be doing something so save your farm from the inevitable fate that awaits you if you just go along with the current system. I would not hold my breath waiting for the congress et al to break up the grain/packing house monoplies so the expense reduction is going to have to come on the input side. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Mike Miller major snip >AMcG> This led us to hybrids > >Hybrids are simply the results of natural breeding methods (cross >pollination) that happen to NOT reproduce true to seed, due the >instability of the particular genetic cross. > >Further cross breeding (continued seed selection) can sometimes revert >this reversion to type. In other words, if the cross proves stable and >reproduces true to type, you've got a new OP variety on your hands, >which is harder to make proprietary. It has also been found that the >tension involved in a genetic cross that is inherently unstable can >sometimes introduce a kind of temporary (since it doesn't reproduce) >vigor in the progeny. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:51:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19620 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02292 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:11:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02197 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11hCiO-00062B-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:09:12 +0200 Message-ID: <3819AF32.540BCC1A@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:29:06 +0200 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 Hi, This is my first posting on this list. It is a summary of an article I found in today's Dutch Agrarian Journal. Wytze de Lange Heading: Old method of Plantbreeding rediscovered. By: Joost van Winsen Introduction: Can a plant adapt to its environment? If that appeared to be true, than it offers (huge) breedingpossibilities for organic agriculture and agriculture in poor areas. Trials at the Russian Timirasov-University show that winterwheat adapts itself to growthcircumstances and can be selected on this. Wageningen:- Sonja Temirbikova is a Russian doctor in plantbreeding and cropprotection. Since ten years she is testing winterwheat on their capacity to adapt to circumstances of growth. The research started after meeting with Jan Diek van Mansvelt from the Agricultural University Wageningen in the Netherlands. Van Mansvelt visited Russia ten years ago to see what the possibilities are for organic agriculture in Russia. In the first year of the research Temirbikova planted Dutch wheat between Russian wheat of the same variety.Ten percent of the Dutch wheat appeared to be suitable for the extreme cold circumstances in Russia. Also the second year the Dutch wheat proved resistent to the Russian frost. "A quality of which we knew nothing in the Netherlands" says van Mansvelt. This finding is in itself not new. Temirbikova: "plantbreeding in former times was based on this principle. In grainshippings there were several sisterlines which were used for selection. Nowadays, this principle is being judged as a negative phenomena. It disturbs the homogenicity. According to van Mansvelt, breeding on the basis of sisterlines was in Scandinavian countries common practice till the end of the last century. Also farmers in 'developing' countries use this principle in breeding. Knwoledge about it is not very much present. It was lost with breeders who selected this way. Breeding is for some length of time a matter of crosses and since recent times of genetic engineering. The lack of knowledge is one of the reasons why Temirbikova went on with the research. She used three varieties: the Russian Mironowskaja 808, Okapi and Rector. After ten years of research she concludes that without crossing in five to six years a new biotype can be selected from a population. "With crossing this would take twelve years". she says. Points taken into consideration were yields and tolerances, but the wheats also could be selected for diseaseresistance. Russian Ministery of Science saw enough reason to continue subsidizing the research. The research opens possibilities for organic agriculture."Farmers can take up breeding themselves and do not need to be dependant on big breeding companies. This can work cost reducing". The research is still young but promising. "The principle can also be used with potatos and vegetables" concludes Temirbikova. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:55:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19668 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03574 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:14:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03538 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE4943A2@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: "'mmiller@pcsia.com'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: free range eggs Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:12:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 Mike- Here's what we did: bought an old school bus ($150+towing), cut the floor out and replaced it with 2"x2" wire, installed roosts, nesting boxes, and a feed hopper. Screened out the cab area for feed/utility storage. Hung a bell waterer off the side. I open up the emergency exit every morning for the girls to come down a ramp. I collect eggs and close the bus every evening. Move the bus every week or so with the tractor to a new spot on the pasture. All the hens are protected at night when the varmints are out. During the day, they can dive for cover under the bus if they see a hawk. We had trouble with a coyote last year, but he didn't get too many, and haven't seen him this year though there are plenty of coyotes around. Domestic animals, well, we cull our barn cats if they show too much favor for chasing chickens. Some do, some don't. This setup has worked real well for us and was cheap to build. You could adapt the concept to your flock size by using whatever vehicle fits your plans. Could be a van, minibus, or greyhound. Our unit houses 75 heavy breed layers easily. Could go higher. Roosting space is the limiting factor. Visit the PasturePoultry list for all your poultry Q's and A's. Grace to you, Ralph > -----Original Message----- > > Alright, you all have me convinced. I have wanted to start with a few > chickens here on the farm but how do free range birds hold up with the > red-tailed hawks, raccoons, possums, owls and my major worry, my barn cat To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 10:56:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19694 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01889 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.248]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01868 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from REXD.uark.edu ([130.184.56.55]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id JAA11873; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910291406.JAA11873@ncatark.uark.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rex Dufour" To: jaweaver@epix.net Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:03:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Check this out Reply-to: rexd@ncatark.uark.edu CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu In-reply-to: <3818F316.18B99D9C@epix.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Jim, Well, at least Ed Shonsey, President of Novartis Seeds, got this part right--, "Ignorance on the part of a group of people, who... have imperiled the near-term future of agricultural biotechnology" Yup, there was an ignorant group of people that chose to ignore input from an important group of stakeholders. The stakeholders had legitimate concerns about the risks of a new biotechnology (some of which (the concerns) have since been born out) being widely dispersed in the environment. The heads of the companies in question chose to ignore (root of ignorant) these legitimate concerns, tactically focusing instead on the gleam of large short-term profits. This turned out to be a large strategic blunder. Now, an interesting and possibly useful technology has been tainted in the public mind due to the haste and greed of company leaders too willing to externalize environmental/social costs upon the rest of society. I'm not sure the idea of "terminator technology" improved biotech companies' corporate images, either... The analogies of adoption of biotech with the widespread use of pesticide technology (and the resulting environmental side effects) should've been obvious to even company CEO's--after all, the companies pushing biotech are many of the same companies that manufactured and sold synthetic pesticides--at least the parallels were obvious to the European public... The biotech companies have only themselves to blame for the present cloud of distrust and suspicion which hovers over them and their products. Rex Dufour > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:06:30 -0400 > From: Jim Weaver > Reply-to: jaweaver@epix.net > Organization: GCES > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Check this out > Ignorance imperils future of agriculture > > Farmers are in fight or flee mode; they are confused, > scared and angry, observed Ed Shonsey, the president and > CEO of Novartis Seeds, Thursday in an Iowa speech. "And > you know what bothers them the most?" he asked. "It's not > the government. Or the weather. Or even the seed > companies. What has farmers upset -- so upset their > eternal optimism is in serious danger of becoming > permanent pessimism -- is ignorance. Ignorance. Ignorance > on the part of a group of people, who, in the name of > protecting the environment, have imperiled the near-term > future of agricultural biotechnology." He makes an > impassioned case for the science behind, and the > potentially great benefits of biotechnology. Read the > full text of his speech here: > > > http://www.agriculture.com/scgi/notebook/nb.cgi?FNC=Corres > pondents__Anb_list_html___780 > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the > command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest > format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To > Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the > command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:18:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20262 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04354 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:17:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04206 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id NAA02717; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:42:24 GMT Message-ID: <3819A43F.76778695@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:42:24 -0500 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: no-till chemical use Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 To London et al: On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Lynne Carpenter-Boggs wrote: > No-till is a wonderful thing, and even with the increased herbicide > input it is a much more productive and environment-friendly system > than currently practiced in many places. London replied: "How is increased herbicide use/acre more environment-friendly?" My reply: No-till is not the be all - end all of environmentally sound farming. However, it certainly can have tremendous environmental benefits, compared to conventional farming (deep plowing, disking, cultivating, etc.) Yes, generally more chemical amounts are used. However, since the killed vegetation reduces soil erosion to near zero (major benefit), absorbs chemicals, slows surface water movement, reduces fertilizer loss, enhances water movement into the soil profile, etc. then there is less chemical running off into surface waters. As for chemical leaching into the ground water, that can be a problem with some chemicals used in no-till and conventional tillage (atrizine types for instance). However, many chemicals do break down while in the soil, so as they are moving through the soil they tend to degrade. No-till also enhances soil tilth, reduces fossile fuel use (thereby reducing air pollution and global warming), lowers labor and equipment costs to the farmer, and has been proven to maintain or even increase yields. No-till farming: Environmental panacea? Nope. Environmentally friendly? Yep. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:20:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20341 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03791 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03783 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from the-ufos-asy-35.rutgers.edu (the-ufos-asy-35.rutgers.edu [128.6.249.35]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28799; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:10:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: the-ufos-asy-35.rutgers.edu [128.6.249.35] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <3819D4B8.42@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:09:12 -0700 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC2@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 Wilson, Dale wrote: > Chlorpyrifos has been around for a long time, and has a good safety record, > although a few people claim to be highly sensitive to it. The fact that > traces of this can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of > a problem. Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is disregarded as being in the category of things we call "a problem." By this reasoning, if a person breaks into my home by picking the lock, but does not actually break the lock in doing so, and proceeds to alarm my family, tells bad jokes, has vile body odor, and sit on the furniture, but does not immediately kill anyone or steal or break anything, then the presence of this trespassor "is not, in itself, indication of a problem." I shall poll everyone I run across for the next 7 days, and shall submit this situation to their scrutiny. I shall ask "Would you consider it a problem to have a tresspassor hanging out in your home? Please answer yes or no." I'll report the results when they are compiled. I hypothesize that it would be considered indication of a problem. Or is there some error in the analogy? > In fact, this is so widely used, it would be a surprise if you > couldn't find it in your urine. No argument here. LM To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:29:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20529 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12924 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.1starnet.com (1starnet.com [207.243.104.17]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12854 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from joepaloff [207.243.107.57] by mail.1starnet.com (SMTPD32-5.04) id A144182016C; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:37:56 CDT Message-ID: <05cb01bf221b$861a5fc0$396bf3cf@joepaloff> From: "Minelle & Joe Paloff" To: Subject: Free range chickens.....comment Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:40:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 I raised free range chickens both in northern Arkansas and now down here in Texas. In AR, I must have had about 100 chickens running around in the yard and nearby woods. I had a good chicken house with a light, which I kept on all the time. At night, most of the chickens would go into the house, and then we would go out and close the door. In the morning, we would open the door and let them out again. I had quite a few dogs which kept predators away. One time, I had a black snake which sneaked in at the top of the house near the roof through a tiny hole. We soon took care of that prob. LOL Down here in Texas, I do not have a nice chicken house like I did in Arkansas; however, I raised a few chickens out in my goat pen ( after they were old enough to leave the brooder), and most did quite well. I still have dogs which I trained from tiny puppies to leave the chicks alone. I have four dogs outside. A Great Pyranees ( who has never attempted to kill anything), a tri-colored collie, and two mixed collie-chows. They are great dogs and really work at night. In my way of thinking, to be really successful , one needs a good chicken house for the chickens to go in at night and in foul weather, a light in the chicken house, fresh water, good food, and some good dogs. As for diet, I fed corn chops, leftover cornbread, veggies, leftover popcorn, etc. I also saved the egg shells, baked them in the oven until crisp, then put them in a plastic bag and crushed them with my rolling pin, then put them in with the corn chops for added strength to the eggs. Minelle Paloff To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:34:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20681 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16824 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:44:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16812 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id JAA19585; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:42:37 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma019423; Fri, 29 Oct 99 09:42:30 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:42:30 -0500 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC4@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Dave Lewington'" Cc: Sanet Subject: RE: Benefit of BT Corn Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:42:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Dave, > As far as I'm concerned, all seed companies should be required to > make available the non GMO base hybrid that is in every GMO > hybrid. I tend to agree, but I don't like the idea of the government dictating what varieties we must offer. If I were the head of product planning, I would offer all the elite material as non-GMO hybrids to give customers the choice. Keep in mind that often, the non-GMO version IS marketed, but just not identified as the non-GMO equivalent of the more trendy GMO hybrid. > Either that or you are going to drive all of us that don't wish to > grow GMO to the small local companies or to open pollinated corn. I think the big companies are beginning to realize this. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:34:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20689 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21819 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:59:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from spdmgaae.compuserve.com (ds-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.206.138]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21789 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaae.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.7) id KAA03163 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:56:39 -0400 From: Tom Green Subject: Environmental Marketing Conference To: Sanet posting Message-ID: <199910291056_MC2-8AEC-7E22@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id KAA21795 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Please feel free to circulate to listservs, friends and neighbors. Conventional producers who are interested in learning more about opportunities in environmentally identified production and marketing are especially encouraged to attend. To: News Editor October 29, 1999 From: Thomas A. Green, Ph.D., President, IPM Institute of North America, Inc. (608) 232-1528, fax (608) 232-1530 E-mail: ipminstitute@cs.com FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE #### Conference Set on Adding Value to Food Products through Environmental Marketing, December 6-7, 1999 in Madison, WI How concerned are consumers about the environmental impacts of agricultural production practices? How can producers effectively communicate their efforts to reduce these impacts? What market advantages are available to food and fiber producers, processors and retailers who can document and deliver environmental benefits? More than 50% of consumers indicate a preference for goods produced in an environmentally sound manner. The organic market is currently $5 billion dollars, growing 20% annually, and now includes marketing giants such as Quaker Oats and General Mills. Products identified with other eco-labels and environmental standards, including ISO 14001, are also experiencing double digit sales growth in domestic and international markets. How can you turn this challenge into an opportunity for your organization? At this conference, you will discuss these issues with national experts and industry leaders, including Harvey Hartman, a consultant advising senior management of Fortune 500 companies on environmental and marketing strategies; Katherine DiMatteo, Executive Director of the Organic Trade Association, representing over 1000 members; Mark Retzloff, Senior Vice President of Horizon Organic Dairy, the largest organic brand with over $57 million in annual sales; Daniel Burke, President of Pacific Soybean and Grain, an international supplier of identity-preserved grains; Jeff Wilson, owner, Birkbank Farms, producer of fruit and vegetables and participant in the Ontario Farm Plan; Tom O'Neill, Manager, Norfolk Fruit Growers Association, completing ISO 14001 environmental certification; Ron Lautrup, National Commodities Manager, United Natural Foods, the largest natural foods distributor in the U.S., with $729 million in sales and 73% growth in 1998, Harold Coble, former USDA National IPM Coordinator and others working in well-established and newly developed environmentally based production and marketing systems. "Adding Value through Environmental Marketing: Opportunities for Food Producers, Processors and Retailers" with special focus on production, marketing and distribution of field crops, meat and dairy products will be held December 6-7, 1999, at the Edgewater Hotel in Madison, Wisconsin. Attendance is limited to the first 160 registrants. For more information, contact the IPM Institute of North America, 1914 Rowley Ave., Madison, WI 53705, (608) 232-1528, Fax (608) 232-1530, E-mail , or visit the web site at ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13141 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13067 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 129.2.68.82 (aglifesurge-82.umd.edu [129.2.68.82]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA20890 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3819791A.2015@wam.umd.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:38:31 +0000 From: Valerie Berton Organization: SARE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: New on-farm research bulletin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 A new, 12-page bulletin for farmers, ranchers and the extension educators who work with them outlines how to conduct research at the farm level. Published by the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program’s Sustainable Agriculture Network, the bulletin offers practical tips for both crop and livestock producers, as well as a comprehensive list of more in depth resources. Real-life examples -- from a Pennsylvania vegetable farmer testing new rotations to a Montana producer experimenting with a legume called black medic to build soil and prolong pasture -- may stimulate research ideas. Co-written by a team of research scientists, the bulletin features many SARE grant recipients. The free publication is available at www.sare.org/san/htdocs/pubs/ or call (301) 504-6422 and request a copy of "Put Your Ideas to the Test: How to Conduct Research on Your Farm or Ranch." Valerie Berton SARE Communications Specialist (301) 405-3186 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 11:42:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20917 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29777 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29751 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([128.146.210.212]) by mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21063 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3819C685.337C4AFE@uoguelph.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:08:37 -0500 From: "E. Ann Clark" Organization: University of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: no-till chemical use (long) References: <3819A43F.76778695@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Folks: mike (son of richard) richardson wrote regarding no-till: > However, it certainly can have tremendous environmental > benefits, compared to conventional farming (deep plowing, disking, > cultivating, etc.) Yes, generally more chemical amounts are used. > However, since the killed vegetation reduces soil erosion to near zero > (major benefit), absorbs chemicals, slows surface water movement, > reduces fertilizer loss, enhances water movement into the soil profile, > etc. then there is less chemical running off into surface waters. As > for chemical leaching into the ground water, that can be a problem with > some chemicals used in no-till and conventional tillage (atrizine types > for instance). However, many chemicals do break down while in the soil, > so as they are moving through the soil they tend to degrade. No-till > also enhances soil tilth, reduces fossile fuel use (thereby reducing air > pollution and global warming), lowers labor and equipment costs to the > farmer, and has been proven to maintain or even increase yields. Pasture - which is an "alternate" form of the livestock nutrition (grains) produced with no-till - does all of the above, and better - without need for chemicals in the first place. Let's not frame the discussion so narrowly as to create a strawman-type argument. If we really stand back and analyze land use practices objectively (whatever that is), starting with - what do we grow these crops for in the first place - this opens up a much wider array of options than just no-till or till. Might also add that even well managed no-till inherently and inescapably creates a whole suite of problems (which well managed pasture doesn't), including weed shifts to favor hard-to-control perennials like dandelion and quack. The obligatory dependence on herbicides (to the exclusion of all other approaches) also accelerates herbicide resistance (note Benbrook's authoritative commentary earlier on the increase in mean glyphosate use in the US in just the last few years, owing largely to no-till and RR crops (probably in that order too). In Ontario, long-time no-till farmers (experienced and commited people; leaders in the field) have begun to plow up their land, following several dry years in a row. For reasons that I still do not understand (given all the presumed increase in soil OM and water conservation under no-till (which is disputed, see below)), no-till land apparently has performed worse than tilled land under dry conditions. I'd have thought the reverse. It may have something to do with the accumulation of macropore space opening directly to the surface, conveying water too readily down to tiles before it can be absorbed. These same uninterrupted macropores, by the way, also convey liquid manure, herbicides, and anything else that has been surface applied directly down to tiles and out into surface water systems - completely bypassing buffer strips and other vehicles recommended to protect the integrity of watercourses. Colleagues in Land Resource Science tell me that no-till slows down the rate of loss of OM under annual arable cropping, but does NOT increase full-profile soil OM. Distribution is affected, with more concentrating in the surface layers, but less in the lower layers, with a net effect that total OM does NOT increase. The only way to materially increase soil OM is to withhold the land from cultivation under a perennial sod - like a pasture or hay field. And then there is the issue of N-use efficiency. I recall a paper co-authored by Rennie (former dean of ag at Sask and major proponent of conservation tillage) showing the potential for anaerobic microsites and anaerobiosis under surface vegetation on no-tilled land in the spring promoted denitrification and N-loss on wheat land. The amounts were fairly hefty if memory serves - say, 20-50 kg N/ha. Surface residues also keep soil colder longer, which effectively shortens the growing season in a short season climate, such as we have in Canada. Surface residues, particularly in combination with cold, can also retard plant establishment and seedling vigor, promoting susceptibility to a range of soil damping-off and other pathogens. Only certain crops *can* be grown no-till, which reduces rotation complexity and hampers the ability to constructively design rotations to deal with weed, pest, and nutrient management issues. Another unintended effect of no-till is leaving allelochemically active residues on the soil surface, where they can impact weed and subsequent crop growth. As it happens, one of the major no-till crops in Canada is no-till wheat. Research by Purvis et al., in Australia, has shown that the allelochemics released by decomposing wheat straw stimulate wild oat germination and growth. Thus, failure to incorporate the residues created a mega-problem with wild oats. And wild oats are a major problem in the prairies, which have adopted no-till wheat with a vengence. So, from a different (pro-pasture, admittedly) vantage point, no-till is a proprietary band-aid to patch up a arable crop technology (annual tillage to produce annual grain crops) that is fundamentally at odds with the ecological integrity of farm land. The problem(s) with tillage is soil erosion and degradation, with consequent effects on related processes, as water use efficiency. So, no-till addresses those issues, but in so doing, creates a suite of other issues. Pasture - which is what ruminants are actually evolved to eat in the first place - avoids most of these issues entirely (granted, you have to manage it to avoid overgrazing, erosion, etc.). Admittedly, pasture also creates some potential problems, relating to soil compaction (and water infiltration etc.) and N leaching/volatilization - although these are at least partly managable through such practices as restricting labile N (less chemical N; lower % legume). Management intensive grazing is a largely non-proprietary technology which can be mastered by men, women, and children, can be a useful (if not sole) source of nutrition year-around (even in Canada), and can retain a much larger share of farm gate receipts in the hands of farmers than no-till, conventional till, or any kind of annual arable cropping. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why commodity-specific subsidy/entitlement programs always favor annual crops and completely omit pasture (and often hay) crops. Ann To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 12:32:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21953 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22095 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:45:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22058 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00898 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.231.88] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:42:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:40:19 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <11444.991029@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Subsidies and Priorities In-reply-To: <199910281529.IAA02084@enaila.nidlink.com> References: <199910281529.IAA02084@enaila.nidlink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Thursday, October 28, 1999, 9:42:51 AM, you wrote: ... CB> Amount spent to produce food consumed in the US in 1996 (farm CB> cost): $126 billion. Amount spent on marketing it: $421 billion" ... CB> "Tiger Woods gets paid ten cents for having his picture on each CB> box of Wheaties, and the farmer gets five cents for raising the CB> wheat." CB> Can this really be true? I hope someone will pursue this further. CB> chuck Probably true and not surprising. Farmers do not control the food industry, where more weight is held by the distribution end of it. (Incidentally, an organic farmer in California and Mexico who also distributes his own and other peoples organic food products world wide, told me once that his distribution costs were higher than his production costs). In any case, there is nothing that prevents farmers from forming organizations that take charge of the whole food chain - except their own capacity to organize, finance, administrate, collaborate etc. I suggest: Do it! Provide an alternative. Easier said than done? Of course. Got anything better to do? Is this something that is necessary, or not? Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 12:34:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22021 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24239 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.internet.com.mx (mail.internet.com.mx [200.10.239.229]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24208 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ssc053.sancristobal.com.mx (customer-23-246-140.uninet.net.mx [200.23.246.140] (may be forged)) by mail.internet.com.mx (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA12282 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:50:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991029103155.00728ea8@mail.internet.com.mx> X-Sender: danamex@mail.internet.com.mx X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:31:55 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Ronald Nigh Subject: Re: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id LAA24217 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Dear SANET and Wytze de Lange Thank you for this interesting post, Wytse. Indeed, the subject is so important that I think it would be helpful if you could clarify some of the points that I don't quite understand. What exactly does "crossing sister lines" involve in practical terms? With corn crossing is fairly easy, but how does it work with wheat? What exactly is the nature of Temirbikova's research? There is precious little research on this issue. I just saw a presentation of fascinating results by Hugo Perales, Mexican agronomist, who found that traditional farmers in Central Mexico are able to maintain adapted races of corn that perform as well or outperform available hybrids. Farmers freely use the hybrids when they work, but for the most part, the traditionally maintained varieties do just as well (including by responding to chemical fertilizer and irrigations etc.) and in some conditions consistently outperfom hybrids. Two factors maintain these varieties: the incredibile reserve of genetic variety farmers possess and conserve (with know help from anybody) and the continual experimentation and selections by farmers from that variety (one again, with no support). Mexican government ag policy has, for decades, actively discouraged this activity among farmers. There is a lot of hype about 'modern plant breeding' and now 'biotechnology' as being what has 'fed the world' over the past decades as we grew to 6 billion. But it seems to me this activity by farmers that has maintained the viability of our crops all over the world is far more important to our food security, past and future, than any systematic breeding or genetic engineering ever has or will be. In fact, the concern now is that GE, seed patents and such might threaten this traditional source of crop productitivity. How much of our basic crop production do we really owe to modern plant breeders and how much do we owe to farmers? I think giving the plant breeders credit for 10 per cent of it would be generous. Would it be possible to come up with quantitative estimate? Not that we don't appreciate them! I hope modern plant breeders will continue to ply their trade. But the coroporate hype has blown their contribution way out of proportion and detoured our attention from the truly vital process we should be concerned about: in situ conservation and selection by farmers. This is the heart of agricultural sustainability. Ronald Nigh Dana, A.C. Mexico, D.F. & San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas Tel. y FAX 525-666-73-66 (DF) 529-678-72-15 (Chiapas) danamex@mail.internet.com.mx To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 12:36:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22062 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA23643 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:51:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA23540 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id KAA05413; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:47:03 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma004596; Fri, 29 Oct 99 10:46:28 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:46:27 -0500 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC5@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Do-it-yourself corn breeding Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:46:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 Alex and Mike, Alex wrote: > Of course, GMOs are the same mentality. This mentality has > been operating since the beginning of agriculture. (Keep > in mind that any type of cultivation is unnatural.) > > We started out just selecting individual plants for their > properties, but that wasn't good enough. Then we had to > start cross pollinating for characteristics. (grafting is > just a mutation of this.) This led us to hybrids and then > to GMOs. All of this is a manipulation of nature, so there > are no sacred cows, such as heirloom varieties or standard > fruit trees. This kind of fundamental, human-mediated evolution lies at the root of agriculture and is interlocked with the evolution of human culture. Just about all our fruit species came from Asia, for example. Our most serious pests are fairly recent introductions too. Such manipulation is only "unnatural" if you believe that humans (or the human mind) is not part of nature. I am not saying that everything we do is desirable or good, just that appeal to natural law is a weak foundation in these matters. > The goal initially, with selection, cross pollination and > grafting was to bend the plants to our needs- production, > flavor and nutrition. The goal of hybrids was to do all > this AND own a variety which didn't breed true- to make > growers dependent on seed companies. The same is true of GMOs. Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and organized enough to come up with superior varieties, what is wrong with my protecting them from people who would steal them? Don't I have a right to earn a living? Mike wrote (in response to Douglas I think): > You are saying then that with some work/?luck? I can take my > hybrid and turn it into a stable Open-Pollinated variety with > the same characteristics. Then why are we spending all this > money on hybrid seeds? > so why not develop our own open pollinated types that works > best in our own area? Because selection pressures experienced by OP corn tend to select against certain important traits. But I would encourage you to try (if you do, I think you will decide that Pioneer Seed is a pretty good deal). You might want to emulate the successful 19th century farmer-seedsmen from whom we have received our most productive germplasm, people like James Reid (Reid Yellow Dent) and Issac Hershey (Lancaster Sure-Crop). Forrest Troyer wrote an excellent review article on these OP breeders "Background of U.S. Hybrid Corn" (Crop Science 39:601-626) In summary he wrote "Adaptation is everything - the sole driving force of evolutionary biology. Better adaptation to the environment means higher yielding corn. U.S. corn breeding is accelerated evolution to adapt a tropical crop to a temperate environment." Dale PS: If anyone is interested in development of OP supersweets with good seed vigor, I would be happy to share my germplasm with you and cooperate in breeding. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 12:42:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22152 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04313 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:06:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04302 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:06:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Twittman@aol.com Received: from Twittman@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 7XGOa29634 (3998) for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.ac0cac93.254b1f89@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:04:25 EDT Subject: Fwd: Temperature Resistant E.coli To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.ac0cac93.254b1f89_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 --part1_0.ac0cac93.254b1f89_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, Any help on this would be appreciated. Thank you, Thomas Wittman --part1_0.ac0cac93.254b1f89_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:55:23 2000 Received: from mail.cruzio.com (mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:55:09 2000 Received: from [165.227.129.94] (sa-165-227-129-94.cruzio.com [165.227.129.94]) by mail.cruzio.com with ESMTP id FAA14256 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 05:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: sambo@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 05:54:12 -0700 To: twittman@aol.com From: Sam Earnshaw Subject: Temperature Resistant E.coli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: "Porter, Christy" >To: compost@compostingcouncil.org >Cc: "Sam Earnshaw (E-mail)" >Subject: Temperature Resistant E.coli >Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:47:45 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Have any of you heard of a new strain of E.coli that is not killed by >131 >degree composting? There's a farmer in the Santa Cruz, California, area who >is being sued by a neighbor who claims that the spreading of compost is >causing E. coli contamination of the wells. The neighbor is quoting an >article by the infamous Dennis Avery. Any help would be greatly >appreciated. Has anyone seen this article? > > >Christy Porter >Organic Materials Outreach Coordinator >California Integrated Waste Management Board >8800 Cal Center Drive, MS 22 >Sacramento, CA 95826 >(916) 255-2410 > --part1_0.ac0cac93.254b1f89_boundary-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 12:46:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22208 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03101 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:05:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03015 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01291 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EP4ZHBCE; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:59:20 EDT To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:41:59 -0700 Subject: range chickens (was RE: free range eggs) Message-ID: <19991029.084307.3502.1.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,12,20,25,33-35 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Mike asked about wildlife and dogs and cats as danger to chickens: One of my books says chicks are of interest to cats only after they fledge until they are a few months old. My hunting cat (who can take a cotton tail nearly her size) is leery of the chickens (but she is timid of anything she doesn't understand.) On the other hand, our three dogs got into the chicken yard and eliminated 6 or the 12 birds in the few minutes it took me to feed our neighbor's cats (5 of the 6 survivors managed to get through or over the fence into garden, drive, or wild area). I have the chicken yard fenced in a dog/coyote proof fence (the gate the dogs got through is now securely bolted). When we moved here, my neighbor insisted hawks and owls and coyotes would get our cats within a few weeks. Same for any chickens. So far this hasn't been a problem except for our own dogs. However, unless you have secure sleeping quarters for the chickens and close them up over night, you might have a lot more problems. Depending on the wildlife in your area, your defenses might have to be adjusted; back on the farm in Kansas, our defenses were constantly challenged by opossums, raccoons, weasels (they can get through a very small opening), skunks, and probably a few other things I've forgotten. Here in southeast AZ, I have a friend who lost lots of chickens to a bob cat. We have a small pen attached to the chicken house with a chicken-sized door into it for times when we won't be around at dark to close them up. The chickens hate the confinement and I try to avoid having to use it, but it also worked as a nursery for young chicks this spring. About hawks, my chickens crouch under trees when they spot a hawk (their color camouflages them nicely), but once a hot air balloon drifted over. The dogs were going berserk barking at it but the chickens ignored it until its shadow passed over them. There was an enormous commotion of panicky skwaks, cackles, flapping of wings, etc as they ran for cover. >From the balloon, I heard one distinct question: "Are those flamingos?" They are Rhode Island Red's, which are reddish brown, hardly the pink associated with race-track flamingos! Good luck if you try chickens. Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Oct 29 13:30:24 1999 -0400 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23066 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mindspring.com (user-2ivf01f.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.128.47]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04421 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3819DA55.D1C875AF@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:33:09 -0400 From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com Organization: InterGarden X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: london@metalab.unc.edu Subject: Sustainable Apple Growing in Illinois Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 From: "S. K. Kurtural" Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture Subject: Re: Landcare in Australia Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:25:23 -0500 Organization: Souhtern Illinois University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7hnj0u$vuo$1@saluki-news.it.siu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: port6.aixdialin.siu.edu X-Trace: saluki-news.it.siu.edu 926895966 32728 131.230.253.6 (16 May 1999 23:06:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: netnews@siu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 May 1999 23:06:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: wnb1 alt.sustainable.agriculture:14812 I am involved ina research project which is titled 'Sustainable Apple Growing in Illinois'. I don't know how much of pomology is important to your project but we have some good ideas on revive communities that lost their livelihood due to the closure of coal mines down here (or up here I should say) with the help of planting of high management apple orchards. We would like to exchange some ideas with you all. S.K. -- Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu /intergarden/orgfarm /intergarden /permaculture /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 13:59:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23587 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13412 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:12:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13312 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11hFWf-0001qf-00; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 19:09:17 +0200 Message-ID: <3819D967.CD770FDF@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 19:29:12 +0200 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ronald Nigh CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding References: <3.0.1.32.19991029103155.00728ea8@mail.internet.com.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Dear Ronald Nigh, I will try to connect mr. van Mansvelt and than come back to it. As far as I understand there is not such use of crossing but rather growing of sister lines and selecting them further. I will let you know when I talked to someone involved in the research. Wytze Ronald Nigh wrote: > Dear SANET and Wytze de Lange > > Thank you for this interesting post, Wytse. Indeed, the subject is so > important that I think it would be helpful if you could clarify some of the > points that I don't quite understand. > > What exactly does "crossing sister lines" involve in practical terms? > > With corn crossing is fairly easy, but how does it work with wheat? > > What exactly is the nature of Temirbikova's research? > > There is precious little research on this issue. I just saw a presentation > of fascinating results by Hugo Perales, Mexican agronomist, who found that > traditional farmers in Central Mexico are able to maintain adapted races of > corn that perform as well or outperform available hybrids. Farmers freely > use the hybrids when they work, but for the most part, the traditionally > maintained varieties do just as well (including by responding to chemical > fertilizer and irrigations etc.) and in some conditions consistently > outperfom hybrids. Two factors maintain these varieties: the incredibile > reserve of genetic variety farmers possess and conserve (with know help > from anybody) and the continual experimentation and selections by farmers > from that variety (one again, with no support). Mexican government ag > policy has, for decades, actively discouraged this activity among farmers. > > There is a lot of hype about 'modern plant breeding' and now > 'biotechnology' as being what has 'fed the world' over the past decades as > we grew to 6 billion. But it seems to me this activity by farmers that has > maintained the viability of our crops all over the world is far more > important to our food security, past and future, than any systematic > breeding or genetic engineering ever has or will be. In fact, the concern > now is that GE, seed patents and such might threaten this traditional > source of crop productitivity. How much of our basic crop production do we > really owe to modern plant breeders and how much do we owe to farmers? I > think giving the plant breeders credit for 10 per cent of it would be > generous. Would it be possible to come up with quantitative estimate? > > Not that we don't appreciate them! I hope modern plant breeders will > continue to ply their trade. But the coroporate hype has blown their > contribution way out of proportion and detoured our attention from the > truly vital process we should be concerned about: in situ conservation and > selection by farmers. This is the heart of agricultural sustainability. > > Ronald Nigh > Dana, A.C. > Mexico, D.F. & San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas > Tel. y FAX 525-666-73-66 (DF) > 529-678-72-15 (Chiapas) > danamex@mail.internet.com.mx > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 14:26:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24017 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03131 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:41:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03086 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKD00BXVL1FKD@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:36:26 -0700 From: Misha Subject: Communicating about biotech In-reply-to: <3818F316.18B99D9C@epix.net> To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" References: <3818F316.18B99D9C@epix.net> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 Howdy, all-- Jim found and shared this: >Ignorance imperils future of agriculture > >Farmers are in fight or flee mode; they are confused, scared and angry, >observed Ed Shonsey, the president and CEO of Novartis Seeds, Thursday >in an Iowa speech. "And you know what bothers them the most?" he asked. >"It's not the government. Or the weather. Or even the seed companies. >What has farmers upset -- so upset their eternal optimism is in serious >danger of becoming permanent pessimism -- is ignorance. Ignorance. >Ignorance on the part of a group of people, who, in the name of >protecting the environment, have imperiled the near-term future of >agricultural >biotechnology." He makes an impassioned case for the science behind, >and the potentially great benefits of biotechnology. Read the full text of >his speech here: The Biotech CEO Who Speaks for Farmers. Wow, scary; sounds like a Halloween movie release. In my view, CEO Ed's speech is a highly predictable response, not only content-wise (this kind of speech goes back to at least the 19th century technical press around innovations like electricity), but rhetorically. I see him using two common rhetorical methods whereby the powerful try to discredit those who disagree with them. In brief they try to recast the communication into something they control, when they feel threatened on that front. Here's how it works: Novartis and other biotech companies are trying to argue that biotech is good good good good simply all-American scientific good goodie goodness. Some are getting sucked into the Cold War of Words and responding by saying, no no no, it's bad baddy baddness. From where I'm sitting, though, it appears many people are taking a more complex approach: "Wait, it's not as simple as good versus bad...there are many shades of grey and colors as well between those two poles...many things we don't know...we don't even know what questions to ask, never mind what the answers are." And interestingly enough, to me, many of the most vocal opponents of GMOs are *right there.* Yeah, they think it's bad, but they're raising incredibly complex and perceptive challenges to corporate PR about GE--challenges on the fronts of biology, ecology, economics, morality, ethics, democratic government, and more. So one would expect that the corporations would try to re-impose their binary, black-white, good-evil, for-agin thought structures on the discourse. Get things simple and controllable again. PR and advertising are about encapsulating idiotically simple messages in sugared niblets that wedge themselves in your brain like prions. Once people start thinking, they start paying less attention to PR and advertising. I.e., the communications lifeblood of the corporate structure. Or they view those messages from a stance that doesn't enhance the corporations' marketing efforts. (Have you all seen the fabulous Canadian magazine, /AdBusters/?) What is one of the most tried-and-true rhetorical ways to reinforce a binary discourse, when things threaten to get complicated by multi-hued, multi-textured reality? Projection. For instance, CEO Ed says *farmers*--who in my experience are asking some of the most complex, deep, and probing questions about this technology--are having "fight or flee" (binary) responses. Optimism vs. pessimism. Ignorance vs. knowledge. Not CEO Ed's corporation. Oh no...not them. Farmers. Not only that, *the farmers* are confused, scared, and angry (obviously emotional, and we all know what THAT means). Whereas CEO Ed is "impassioned" in favor of science. He has no confusion, fear, or anger about the fact that his expensive pin-striped butt is on the line to sell investors and the public on a technology that's getting more suspect by the hour, that his company exists to sell. Oh, no; he's rational, and when he gets emotional, it's in favor of rationality. Farmers get used a lot this way, in this society. Silver screens onto which people and organizations project their own fears, goals, desires, hopes, hatreds, biases, etc. What's sad is that guys like CEO Ed and his Marketing Mavens generally have no incentive to stretch themselves to think and communicate in any other way. This is part of their privilege. The world must come around to their way of thinking--impoverishing higher-order thinking and analysis because THEY SAY SO. This is a variation on the Engineer Mentality issue that got brought up here recently, complete with a joke involving a sexually deviant naked woman. I bit my tongue on that, in part because I believe "Engineer Mentality" is code for "UberMale thinking," and this joke seemed to demonstrate that without requiring comment. By the way....it was Darth Cheezer--a corporate engineer and a boy--who observed this connection between gender and technocratic thinking/communication. Quite some years ago now. In observing his and my communications these past 10 years, and more recently, and in watching him as he has worked to grow into a more complex, skilled communicator...I've concluded he's absolutely right. And who better than a boy to observe how boys are taught to communicate???? But I've been told repeatedly that looking at gender and communication has nothing to do with sustainable ag. Just ask Wendell Berry. :^) peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If there was a law they was workin' with, maybe we could take it, but it ain't the law. They're workin' away our spirits, tryin' to make us cringe and crawl, takin' away our decency. --Tom Joad To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 14:27:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24086 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03165 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:42:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03136 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKD00BXVL1FKD@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:37:12 -0700 From: Misha Subject: Beef wars/England, France To: SANET-mg Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1270903800==_ma============" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 --============_-1270903800==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Howdy, all-- Darth Cheezer passed this item along. From today's SF Gate/SF Chronicle, an AP story highlighting some cultural aspects of key food safety issues. As Glenn repeatedly reminds us, bless his persistent boots, it's in the market that these issues ultimately get played out. When I read stuff like this, it helps me understand why so many people fled to the New World as soon as they could--to escape the weight of centuries-long cultural sniping like the following. Only to translate it into things like the (now defunct) Mets-Cubs rivalry, or the hatred of drivers who come from adjoining states. :^) Again, it's interesting that there's this strong focus on some French farmers' use of sewage as fodder...while ignoring the Dutch, Belgian, and German examples. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ French and British at war again: Whose beef is dirtier? MAUREEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer Friday, October 29, 1999 Breaking News Sections (10-29) 01:16 EDT LONDON (AP) -- It may not rank with the battles of Agincourt or Waterloo, but it's war. At least that's what the tabloids say. Britain and France, those centuries-old enemies and allies, are at it again -- this time not over dynasties and domain, but over who produces the dirtiest, most unhygienic and dangerous-to-eat beef. The dispute promises to be the most serious since, well, since the issue was cheap British lamb in the '80s. Or perhaps since the historic 1994 opening of the undersea Channel Tunnel that physically linked Britain with France for the first time -- ushering in a new era of Anglo-French misunderstandings. This latest skirmish, while it began over beef, has spread to other products as tempers flare higher and higher. French farmers have lit burning barricades in front of British trucks at the tunnel entrance. ``England is an island. It is easier to blockade than the continent,'' declared farmers' leader Luc Guyau. A British aristocrat with an ancient title, Lord Cranborne, has banned French goods from the tourist shop on his family estate, and the agriculture minister is denying himself French delicacies. The Daily Star tabloid is running a ``Just Say Non'' campaign, urging Britons to drink Californian, Bulgarian, Australian or anyone, but anyone, else's wine. ``The Frogs may have started it, but it's hard to know which side of the Channel is behaving worse,'' Polly Toynbee wrote in London's upmarket, pro-European Guardian newspaper. And that's about as liberal and even-handed as it gets. The beef war began in August -- or rather entered a new, more emotional phase -- when France refused to join the rest of Britain's partners in the 15-nation European Union in lifting a ban on British beef. The ban was imposed in 1996 because of an outbreak of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease, which researchers linked to a new strain of the fatal human brain ailment Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease. France claims to have its own scientific evidence that British beef is still unsafe. Having spent millions cleaning up its act, Britain has made strong objections, laced with suspicions that the French are protecting their own farmers. An EU scientific committee began meeting Thursday in Brussels, Belgium, to examine the French claim. Officials said they expected a ruling Friday. Last week, in the sweetest of revenge for the British, an EU report accused French rendering plants of using sewage in livestock feed. London-based tabloids went wild. ``Why oui hate 'em,'' cried the Daily Star, listing 20 reasons to dislike the French. The top-selling Sun double-printed its front page Thursday, once in English, once in French with the headline over a burning barricade: ``We don't want war but France is wrong.'' Britain's opposition Conservative Party wants an immediate ban on imports of French meat. But for Labor Prime Minister Tony Blair, seeking to smooth over traditional British edginess with the Continentals, it's proving a lot more difficult. Braving accusations of being spineless, Blair said that, despite the sewage report, the EU had ruled French meat is not a danger to health and that any ban would therefore be illegal. His position sounded a shade tame this week in the tumult of shouting Tory legislators in the House of Commons. As ever, this dispute is tinged both with historic overtones and the near-certainty that after it's over, something else will crop up. And though it's deadly serious, with livelihoods, free trade and the British liking for French cuisine at stake, some tongues are firmly in cheeks. The Daily Star offered this among its reasons for hating the French: ``Speak to them in fluent, faultless French which you've painstakingly studied for three years at night school, and they will stare at you blankly as if you are a mound of smoldering donkey dung.'' --============_-1270903800==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Howdy, all-- Darth Cheezer passed this item along. From today's SF Gate/SF Chronicle, an AP story highlighting some cultural aspects of key food safety issues. As Glenn repeatedly reminds us, bless his persistent boots, it's in the market that these issues ultimately get played out. When I read stuff like this, it helps me understand why so many people fled to the New World as soon as they could--to escape the weight of centuries-long cultural sniping like the following. Only to translate it into things like the (now defunct) Mets-Cubs rivalry, or the hatred of drivers who come from adjoining states. :^) Again, it's interesting that there's this strong focus on some French farmers' use of sewage as fodder...while ignoring the Dutch, Belgian, and German examples. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Times_New_RomanFrench and British at war again: Whose beef is dirtier? MAUREEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer Friday, October 29, 1999 Breaking News Sections (10-29) 01:16 EDT LONDON (AP) -- It may not rank with the battles of Agincourt or Waterloo, but it's war. At least that's what the tabloids say. Britain and France, those centuries-old enemies and allies, are at it again -- this time not over dynasties and domain, but over who produces the dirtiest, most unhygienic and dangerous-to-eat beef. The dispute promises to be the most serious since, well, since the issue was cheap British lamb in the '80s. Or perhaps since the historic 1994 opening of the undersea Channel Tunnel that physically linked Britain with France for the first time -- ushering in a new era of Anglo-French misunderstandings. This latest skirmish, while it began over beef, has spread to other products as tempers flare higher and higher. French farmers have lit burning barricades in front of British trucks at the tunnel entrance. ``England is an island. It is easier to blockade than the continent,'' declared farmers' leader Luc Guyau. A British aristocrat with an ancient title, Lord Cranborne, has banned French goods from the tourist shop on his family estate, and the agriculture minister is denying himself French delicacies. The Daily Star tabloid is running a ``Just Say Non'' campaign, urging Britons to drink Californian, Bulgarian, Australian or anyone, but anyone, else's wine. ``The Frogs may have started it, but it's hard to know which side of the Channel is behaving worse,'' Polly Toynbee wrote in London's upmarket, pro-European Guardian newspaper. And that's about as liberal and even-handed as it gets. The beef war began in August -- or rather entered a new, more emotional phase -- when France refused to join the rest of Britain's partners in the 15-nation European Union in lifting a ban on British beef. The ban was imposed in 1996 because of an outbreak of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease, which researchers linked to a new strain of the fatal human brain ailment Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease. France claims to have its own scientific evidence that British beef is still unsafe. Having spent millions cleaning up its act, Britain has made strong objections, laced with suspicions that the French are protecting their own farmers. An EU scientific committee began meeting Thursday in Brussels, Belgium, to examine the French claim. Officials said they expected a ruling Friday. Last week, in the sweetest of revenge for the British, an EU report accused French rendering plants of using sewage in livestock feed. London-based tabloids went wild. ``Why oui hate 'em,'' cried the Daily Star, listing 20 reasons to dislike the French. The top-selling Sun double-printed its front page Thursday, once in English, once in French with the headline over a burning barricade: ``We don't want war but France is wrong.'' Britain's opposition Conservative Party wants an immediate ban on imports of French meat. But for Labor Prime Minister Tony Blair, seeking to smooth over traditional British edginess with the Continentals, it's proving a lot more difficult. Braving accusations of being spineless, Blair said that, despite the sewage report, the EU had ruled French meat is not a danger to health and that any ban would therefore be illegal. His position sounded a shade tame this week in the tumult of shouting Tory legislators in the House of Commons. As ever, this dispute is tinged both with historic overtones and the near-certainty that after it's over, something else will crop up. And though it's deadly serious, with livelihoods, free trade and the British liking for French cuisine at stake, some tongues are firmly in cheeks. The Daily Star offered this among its reasons for hating the French: ``Speak to them in fluent, faultless French which you've painstakingly studied for three years at night school, and they will stare at you blankly as if you are a mound of smoldering donkey dung.'' --============_-1270903800==_ma============-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 15:14:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24879 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07057 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07035 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24210; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22516; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:35:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:34:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: mike richardson cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: no-till chemical use In-Reply-To: <3819A43F.76778695@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, mike richardson wrote: > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Lynne Carpenter-Boggs wrote: > > > No-till is a wonderful thing, and even with the increased herbicide > > input it is a much more productive and environment-friendly system > > than currently practiced in many places. > > London replied: "How is increased herbicide use/acre more > environment-friendly?" > > My reply: No-till is not the be all - end all of environmentally sound > farming. However, it certainly can have tremendous environmental > benefits, compared to conventional farming (deep plowing, disking, > cultivating, etc.) Yes, generally more chemical amounts are used. The conventional farming methods you described are, for the most part, and in only certain specific situations environmentally unfriendly and are at worst temporary in nature. Chemical use, worse yet, increased chemical use is long lasting, semi-permanent and in some cases close to being permanent when you consider the loss of plant/animal/microorganism diversity that invariably results. The risk to human health, farmers, FARM WORKERS, and consumers alike is undeniable and potentially long-term. > However, since the killed vegetation reduces soil erosion to near zero > (major benefit), absorbs chemicals, slows surface water movement, > reduces fertilizer loss, enhances water movement into the soil profile, > etc. then there is less chemical running off into surface waters. As > for chemical leaching into the ground water, that can be a problem with > some chemicals used in no-till and conventional tillage (atrizine types > for instance). However, many chemicals do break down while in the soil, > so as they are moving through the soil they tend to degrade. No-till > also enhances soil tilth, reduces fossile fuel use (thereby reducing air > pollution and global warming), lowers labor and equipment costs to the > farmer, and has been proven to maintain or even increase yields. > > No-till farming: Environmental panacea? Nope. Environmentally > friendly? Yep. Thanks for the interesting description of (chem no-till but you haven't convinced me. There are conventional farms in my immediate neighborhood, one of the best is a dairy farm where the owner spreads ALL his manure on his land, sheet composts it and tills it (and weeds) under with a Soil Saver (a chisel plow and a Yeomans (Keyline System) plow will work as well but both are smaller implements). He uses this tillage tool exclusively and has very little weed problem, with very little herbiocide use, and has rich friable loamy soil to be proud of. Of course if a farmer is trying to get rich farming marginal land he may, unless he has been enlightened about natural methods (read a little Alan Chadwick about improving poor land - http://metalab.unc.edu/london/pc/Alan.Chadwick/), may in desperation resort to chemical use - but why farm marginal land? The key to weed control is effective tillage and cover cropping in a system of rotating fallow land with land in production with grazed land. Initial tillage with a soil saver could be followed with light weed-removal tillage followed by 1) cover-crop/till-under-covercrop/plant-cash-crop or 2) cover-crop/let-land-lay-fallow/use-soil-saver/plant-cash-crop. A system using either of the above methods can be followed by successive, incremental, plantings of crops that are increasingly intolerant of competition with other plants, i.e. "weeds". IOW following 1) or 2) plant lespedeza, rye grain, vetch or any number of other cover crops; follow these with sudex or milo, canola or hemp, more rye, tall sweet clover; follow these with soybean and/or millet, corn, wheat or sesame or barley; followed with a legume soil builder/ hay crop, followed by more grain, beans or vegetables. Some root crops like mangel, beets or carrots, daikon could be integrated effectively into this system, possibly heavy seed-bearers and other persistent crops like tall sweet clover and comfrey could be integrated effectively without adding to the weedseed bank. I'll continue to resist sanet-mg being turned into a handy podium for those inclined to rationalize the use of agrichemicals, even though the term sustainable agriculture was long ago co-opted by that crowd. Roundup use=sustainable farming, indeed! To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 15:58:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25813 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29367 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:12:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from relay4.hawaii.edu (relay4.hawaii.edu [128.171.94.12]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA29300 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.171.125.93] ([128.171.125.93]) by relay4.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <373606(8)>; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:10:07 -1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991029091646.007e2a90@pop-server.hawaii.edu> X-Sender: mikerobo@pop-server.hawaii.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:16:46 -1000 To: SANET From: Michael Robotham Subject: Courses/trainings on FSR at US/Canadian universities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 Hello SANET subscribers, In order to improve a paper we are revising on the future of farming systems research and extension (FSR/E) in the US and Canada, Hal McArthur and I am looking for information on courses taught or training programs regularly conducted at US and Canadian universities that include FSR theories and methodologies. If you are (or have been) involved in such a course or training program, could you send me some basic information including: Title of the course/training Instructor(s) When did it start (year) How often is it taught/conducted Typical mix of students (Graduate/undergraduate/combination) Typical number of students What is the role of FSR in the course (primary focus, one of several components, mentioned but not covered in any depth, etc.) Any other information you could provide that would help us better understand the goals, structure and expected outcomes of your course/training. For courses/trainings that are no longer offered, could you provide the last year of the course/training and a brief comment on why it was discontinued. Please reply directly to me, Michael Robotham, at mikerobo@hawaii.edu. I will gladly post a summary of the results to the list or send them directly to others who are interested. Please contact me if you would like additional information on the goals and structure of our analysis or would like a copy of the final paper. Thank you for your help. If you know of others who are involved in courses and/or trainings that include FSR, please pass along this message. Sincerely, Michael Robotham PS My apologies for cross-postings --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Robotham, Ph. D. Phone: (808) 956-6835 (office) Education Specialist (808) 956-2617 (workroom) Agronomy and Soil Science Fax: (808) 956-6539 University of Hawaii at Manoa Email: mikerobo@hawaii.edu 1910 East-West Road Home Page: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mikerobo Honolulu, HI 96822 USA ...none but ourselves can free our minds (Bob Marley--Redemption Song) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 16:21:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26317 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22942 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:49:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22900 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKD00B41QXSR2@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:44:47 -0700 From: Misha Subject: Cryptosporidiosis/petting zoos To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Howdy, all-- Thought this might interest those of you who have petting zoos. p m ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CRYPTOSPORIDIOSIS, HUMAN - NEW ZEALAND (03) ******************************************* A ProMED post Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 05:22:10 -0400 From: Marjorie P. Pollack Source: New Zealand News from The Press, 26 Oct 1999 [An outbreak of cryptosporidiosis] in Hawke's Bay is alarming health officials. Sixty-seven cases have been reported this year compared with eight at the same time last year. Healthcare Hawke's Bay medical officer of health, Caroline McElnay, said 12 cases had been reported for October compared with three in August and nine in September. Health officials blamed the time of year and children feeding animals for the outbreak. The disease, which caused "bloody diarrhoea" and terrible stomach pain, left people feeling generally unwell, Dr McElnay said. Most of the cases since September were young people under 15, but people of all ages could be affected. "At this time of year, children could become infected after handling pet lambs and calves, as animals often carried cryptosporidium cysts in their faeces," Dr McElnay said. The disease was easily spread, so it was essential that people preparing food washed their hands thoroughly, she said. "People who have diarrhoea must stay out of the kitchen." In past outbreaks, public swimming pools had been targeted as potential carriers of the cryptosporidium cysts. There was no evidence that this had happened this time, as most of the cases appeared to be unrelated, Dr McElnay said. People who have had diarrhoea should not swim in a public pool until two weeks after having diarrhoea. Dr McElnay urged people with symptoms to see a doctor so the public health unit could isolate the cause to stop it spreading. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you knew what life was worth, you would look for yours on earth. And now you see the light--you stand up for your rights. --Bob Marley, Peter Tosh To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 16:25:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26405 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27377 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:55:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27317 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.165]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06377 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unity.ncsu.edu (2405p200.ppath.ncsu.edu [152.1.176.53]) by uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/UR01Feb99) with ESMTP id PAA16493; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3819FC08.51BA463F@unity.ncsu.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:56:57 -0400 From: Russ Bulluck X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Twittman@aol.com, Sustainable Ag Subject: Re: Fwd: Temperature Resistant E.coli (long) References: <0.ac0cac93.254b1f89@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 > >Have any of you heard of a new strain of E.coli that is not killed by >131 > >degree composting? There's a farmer in the Santa Cruz, California, area who > >is being sued by a neighbor who claims that the spreading of compost is > >causing E. coli contamination of the wells. The neighbor is quoting an > >article by the infamous Dennis Avery. Any help would be greatly > >appreciated. Has anyone seen this article? That Avery article is in American Outlook, Fall 1998. (It's also online at www.hudson.org.) "The Hidden Dangers of Organic Food" pages 19-22. It's likely the article that your "Friend" was talking about. The following quotes were taken directly from the article online. each quote is followed by comments from me. Quotes are always in quotation marks and (hopefully) indented. And as I've said, these come from the above article by Dennis Avery, and are quoted from online sources. (I hope "Organic food is more dangerous than conventionally grown produce because organic farmers use animal manure as the major source of fertilizer for their food crops. Animal manure is the biggest reservoir of these nasty bacteria that are afflicting and killing so many people." " The new reality is quite sobering. Organic and "natural" food producers supply only about 1 percent of the nation’s food, but the Centers for Disease Control have traced approximately 8 percent of the confirmed E. coli 0157 cases to such foods. Consumer Reports recently found much higher levels of salmonella on free-range chickens than on conventionally raised ones. Many other organic foods also pose higher salmonella risks than "supermarket" foods. To be sure, most strains of salmonella are mild and are easily killed by cooking one’s food adequately. But the new salmonella, S. typhimurium, is far stronger than other varieties. Infection often proves fatal. The CDC estimates that there are up to four million cases of salmonella poisoning per year in the U.S., and it has identified one-fourth of the culture-confirmed cases as the more virulent S. typhimurium." This appears to state that one is eight times more likely to get food poisoning from organic foods. What is really said is that 92% of E. coli food-borne illness is not related to organic foods, and that 99% of our food in the US is conventionally produced. I don't think I'll be eating anymore steak tartar! The article implies that the new S. typhimurium is less likely to be killed by heating, when the bacterium simply produces more toxin than other strains. By the way, in the United States, Salmonella spp. are found on 37% of chicken from supermarkets, 55% of pet snakes, and 36% of pet lizards (Foodborne Bacterial Pathogens, M. P. Boyle, ed. Marcel Dekker, Inc., 796 pp). "To be sure, it is an overstatement to say, as one physician recently did, that organic food is "grown in animal manure." Few organic farmers actually put fresh manure on their crops. Most of them compost the manure for several weeks before using it on their crops. But the composting guidelines have been fuzzy and are probably inadequate. A common rule of thumb is to compost for two months at 130 degrees F. or better. The bad news is that a study by Dr. Dean Cliver of the University of California at Davis found that the deadly new E. coli 0157 bacteria can live at least seventy days in a compost pile—and it probably takes an extended period at 160-degree heat to kill it." This may be true, but I can't find the exact reference that Avery is quoting here. And, although I'm not an expert on the subject, I highly doubt that E. coli would be able to survive these temps too long. Avery states that E. coli O157:H7 can survive up to 70 days in a compost pile. He didn't say _Where_ in the pile that the organism could survive. Yes, it could survive on the outside of the pile, but wouldn't thrive in the environment. Other ref's by Cliver point to degradation of E. coli O157:H7 and Salmonella tiphimurium 2 days to 5 weeks in temps at 4, 20, and 37 degrees C (much lower than the 71 degrees C that Avery used) (in 1999 FEMS Microbiology Letters 178:251-257). Other E. coli strains have also been shown not to last long in soil and water samples (on the order of days, Bogosian 1996, Appl. Env. Micro. 62:4114-4120). However, I'd check with Dr. Cliver, himself before believing what Dennis Avery wrote about what he wrote. Avery has a way of turning results around in such a way that they say what he needs them to say. "The real surprise is that nobody is telling the public about the new dangers from organic food, or trying to persuade organic farmers to reduce these risks. Activist groups, government, and the press—all of which have shown no reluctance to organize crusades about matters such as global warming, tobacco addiction, and the use of pesticides—are allowing organic farmers to endanger their customers without any publicity whatever. A press corps eager to find headline-worthy dangers would long ago have exposed any other farmers guilty of so blatantly and unnecessarily endangering the public. And other farmers would certainly have been condemned, or even closed down, by government regulators." This article was quoted in the Wall street Journal on 8 December 1998 (I think). I wonder when Dennis Avery will hear about our little SANET group! Anyway. . .I have some additional articles about the fate of E. coli in soils and water. there are also tests that can be run to determine what the likely source of contamination is. Check with the local health dept. And give Dr. Cliver a call. I know when I talked to Dr. Paul Mead (of the CDC, misquoted in the same article) he was interested to know about the Avery Article. He had heard something about the CDC saying organic food way eight times more likely to cause food poisoning, and knew he had spoken to Dennis Avery. Russ -- Russ Bulluck Ph.D. Candidate Department of Plant Pathology North Carolina State University PO Box 7616 Raleigh, NC 27695-7616 http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/plantpath/Personnel/Students/webpage.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be studied. --Sir E. John Russell The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 17:11:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27109 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17234 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:26:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17104 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id PAA05321; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:24:13 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma003918; Fri, 29 Oct 99 15:23:10 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:23:09 -0500 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC7@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Ronald Nigh'" Subject: More do-it-yourself breeding (Was: rediscovery of old way of plan t breeding) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:23:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Ronald, > With corn crossing is fairly easy, but how does it work with wheat? Crossing is a lot harder with crops like beans, wheat, soybeans, but selfing is a lot easier (just grow the crop). The crossed population segregates, in the course of several generations, into a mixture of pure lines. > Two factors maintain these varieties: the incredibile reserve > of genetic variety farmers possess and conserve (with know help > from anybody) and the continual experimentation and selections > by farmers from that variety (one again, with no support). Land-race varieties of self pollinated crops, unlike corn, are mixtures of pure-lines, each of which breed true. Much gain is made initially by selection, but then gain declines to practically zero. Different species have different rates of mutation and sexual recombination, but in general, these processes that create diversity operate more slowly than the breeding enterprise in self-pollinated crops. Human plant breeders keep creating diversity by causing sexual recombination, allowing continuing progress. It is difficult for amateur breeders to make crosses in soybeans or wheat, since one must dissect the flower bud to do it. One approach is to have some agency or organization make the crosses and increase the progeny in bulk for one or two generations. Then the F2 or F3 bulk is distributed to amateur breeders, who perform selection at their unique sites, on the segregating material. Even a half dozen F2 seeds can produce thousands of distinctive pure-lines after segregation. Some of these might be just what you are looking for on your farm. So the farmer-breeder obtains his customized "land-race" and doesn't have to mess with tweezers and a magnifying glass. > There is a lot of hype about 'modern plant breeding' and now > 'biotechnology' as being what has 'fed the world' over the > past decades as we grew to 6 billion. But it seems to me this > activity by farmers that has maintained the viability of our > crops all over the world is far more important to our food > security, past and future, than any systematic breeding or > genetic engineering ever has or will be. I think a lot of people would dispute this. I have heard that Norman Borlaug is practically worshipped in India for is work with dwarf rice. I know that the improved rice varieties turned Colombia from a net rice importer to a strong rice exporting country. I am less familiar with the wheat story of the green revolution, but it is probably a big success too. Most of the green revolution work was done by public-sector breeders. I think it has been a clear success. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 17:41:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27601 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06527 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:53:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06471 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08009 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA24204; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from benbrook (pm5-5.nidlink.com [216.18.141.12]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA03137; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910292051.NAA03137@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:05:03 -0700 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Interesting Talk re Food System Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id QAA06484 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 The Federal Reserve system has established a Center for the Stidy of Rural America. At a press ocnferene in D.C. announcing the center, Mark Drabenstott made some very interesting remarks re trade, government policy, and the impacts of structural change on rural communities. He is a well-respected observer and his thoughts warrant wide circualtion. You can get the full text at: http://www.kc.frb.org/marks%20rural%20ctr%20remarks.html A few excerpts follow -- "An Introduction to the Center for the Study of Rural America" October 13, 1999 Washington, DC Agriculture is redefining the way it does business. Many farmers no longer grow the generic commodities of the past. Instead, they have signed on as the first link in a more tightly choreographed food system. The key component in this choreography is the business alliance known as the supply chain. In a supply chain, farmers sign a contract with a major food company to deliver precisely grown farm products on a pre-set schedule. The move to supply chains is a tidal wave of change sweeping through agriculture and rural America. Once confined to a handful of products, such as chickens and vegetables, supply chains are beginning to dominate hog production and are spreading to grain. In 1997, for instance, nearly 60 percent of all hogs in the United States were sold under some form of contract, compared with less than 5 percent in 1980. Supply chains change not only how agriculture does business but also who does business. In almost all cases, supply chains include relatively few farmers since the firm putting the chain together wants to minimize the costs of managing its alliances. For instance, the pork industry may end up with less than 40 chains that will engage a fraction of the 100,000 hog farms now scattered across the nation. Thus, farmers increasingly want to know how they can stay in the rapidly changing game of agriculture. Without doubt, some will be left out. While redefining the farming business, supply chains are literally redrawing the rural landscape. Indeed, agriculture’s new geography may be its most profound and least understood new feature. For the past 200 years, a hallmark of commodity agriculture in the United States has been its wide dispersion. Corn, for instance, has been grown across more than 1,000 miles of the nation’s midsection, from the rolling hills of Pennsylvania to the wide-open prairies of Nebraska. Supply chains lead to a much different geography—one based on concentration in relatively few rural places. In that sense, the highly concentrated poultry industry may be prelude to the future. This new geography will turn into an economic revolution for rural America. Many rural places’ dependence on commodity agriculture will continue for the foreseeable future. The struggle for these "commodity communities" will be building an economic future with fewer farms, fewer banks, and fewer businesses. Meanwhile, some rural communities will hitch themselves to the new world of supply chains, but relatively few communities may ultimately prosper in this world. Rural policy must embrace broader issues The final issue is rural policy. The economic changes now sweeping rural America will raise a broad new slate of policy issues in the new century. While agricultural policy was rural policy throughout the 20th century, a much broader approach will be required if rural America is to achieve its economic potential in the 21st century. Conclusions In closing, a vital part of the U.S. economy, rural America is undergoing enormous changes as the 20th century draws to close. Agriculture, currently in a deep slump, is also being transformed by a new way of doing business—supply chains. The ebb and flow of rural America’s other industries have left a deeply divided rural economy—a number of booming growth havens and a countryside full of communities being left behind. Unlocking rural America’s economic potential in the new century will fall in part to a new generation of rural policy, a policy that must extend far beyond agriculture. Obviously, a lot is happening in rural America, and there is plenty of work ahead for those of us in the new Center. We look forward to sharing the news from rural America’s new economic companion. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 18:18:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28309 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16870 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:48:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16712 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id VAA03708; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:14:16 GMT Message-ID: <381A0DD8.F951988F@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:12:56 -0500 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: RE: no-till chemical use Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 Had some great replies to my post this a.m. on using no-till as an envionmentally friendly farm tool. As to be expected, London and Clark were not exactly enthusiasticly embracing my perspective. However, rather than rant about my acceptance of no-till farming (as some would) they both offered intelligent, reasoned arguments to the debate. 1. To London: Conventional tillage does indeed have tremendous potential for environmental damage. One need only look to the gullied Southern states in the first half of the century or to the infamous dust bowl, or the ongoing devestation in China etc.. Soil erosion is neither modest nor temporary (in human life terms) in many circumstances. Not all farms are blessed with rich, loamy soils, on nearly flat fields. And I agree, there are probably other tillage methods that would work for those type of farms. However, much of our productive farm land is rolling and it is not practical or economical to suggest that row crop farmers should just pick up and move to the flat, flat land of loamy soils. I do agree wholeheartedly that rotations are healthy for soils and crops alike. Monoculture is a bane on agriculture. However I disagree on using fallow land in a rotation except in unusual circumstances. Land that is farmed around here is much too expensive to lay idle, and much too rolling (read erosive) to be fallow tilled during the growing season. Use of cover crops, rotation with grass, and rotation of crop species are much more practical. I am not familiar with the tillage tool that you described. However I do remember seeing a demonstration of a "para plow" a few years ago that I thought had promise, but haven't heard much of since. The para plow went nearly as deep as a subsoil shank, but had "wings" at the base that lifted and fractured the soil above. Very narrow surface tillage, with similar efffects to breaking up the plow layer of soil with a conventional plow, as well as improving the tilth of the upper subsoil. Good tool when used with reduced tillage systems, it seemed. 2. To Clark: I think I understand your thread that instead of growing annual row crops for beef that we should grow beef on grass instead. Point taken, although I've eaten both grass fed and grain finished beef, and much prefer grain fed. However, please remember that not all annual row crops are grown for (non-human) animal consumption. Besides many food products, annual crops such as soybeans and cotton provide material for other uses for instance. Row crops would continue to be a major portion of agriculture, even if never another grain was fed to a single cow. Also, I would tend to not accept at face value any statement that conventional tillage does better during dry weather than no-till, without knowing the circumstance. It sounds like it might be more in the line of an exception to the rule, rather than the rule. And lastly (whew!) if land is being drained with tiles, then why would anyone need to use no-till? Reduced tillage, or even ridge tillage maybe, but no-till is especially useful on rolling lands to stop soil erosion. Fields with subsurface tiling shouldn't have water erosion problems. To all: While I do not ascertain that no-till is the final word in environmentaly sound farming, I will not throw it out just because there are some chemicals used. Keep up the debate folks, and lets hear from some others besides London, Clark, or myself! Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 23:09:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01573 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA16857 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:45:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16839 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.231.144] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:42:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:41:03 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5903.991029@acnet.net> To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: Subject: Re: Hybrid to OP Corn? In-reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991029085015.008f4560@pcsia.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19991029085015.008f4560@pcsia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Hi Mike, Friday, October 29, 1999, 7:50:15 AM, you wrote: MM> You are saying then that with some work/?luck? I can take my MM> hybrid and turn it into a stable Open-Pollinated variety with the MM> same characteristics? No. I'm saying that unless you can somehow read the genetic map of a new variety, the variety is or isn't a hybrid depending on how it behaves. If it produces true to type for only 1 generation before reverting to the original distinct crosses, it can be considered a F1 hybrid (good for one generation more of relatively predictable production). Before new varieties are marketed, the developers know what they have and can promote it accordingly. Also, there are undoubtedly reasonably predictable patterns of what can be expected, depending on the crosses used, the genetic makeup of those, the differences between them, their past behavior etc. But in practice, whether or not a new variety is a hybrid or not, is something you determine retroactively. MM> Then why are we spending all this money on hybrid seeds? The MM> farmers have no margin left to spend on unnecessary expenses. There is a lot of money spend on promoting seed and getting "authorities" to join in. MM> If true, it seems this would be a money saving way to go. After MM> all farmers have the equipment, the land and the know-how to grow MM> and harvest the crop, so why not develop our own open pollinated MM> types that works best in our own area? There you go. You also want to develop a communications network, data bank and seed exchange program among them. You want to follow all the results with data collection and make that readily available. The protocols shouldn't be that hard to come up with. I'll even bet there are existing governmental (or non-governmental) support programs that would fund this. And hybrids may or may not prove to be the best option. Remember that there a lot of economic benefits that motivate the seed companies to develop proprietary (difficult to reproduce) varieties. But they're not farmers (they just live off of them). MM> What if every farmer devoted, say 2 acres to his own research? You MM> would not lose the odd 20-70 dollars an acre from growing a MM> regular crop and with a little of your own work, you would have MM> the potential to save money in the long run. A lot of money, and get better results. And when you make your own mistakes (assuming you will, to some degree) you have a better chance of learning from that and correcting them. MM> Another benefit would be mental. At least you would be doing MM> something so save your farm from the inevitable fate that awaits MM> you if you just go along with the current system. You would be taking (greater) control of your own needs and destiny. MM> I would not hold my breath waiting for the congress et al to break MM> up the grain/packing house monoplies so the expense reduction is MM> going to have to come on the input side. Congress will respond the same way as dogs do in relation to those that feed them. Some will value the farm vote and many will salivate in tune with the lobbyists. A big group of farmers could do that too, of course. What does the the Farm Bureau do? (Is that the name of the largest farmers organization in the US)? Can existing organizations take this up or does it take something new? MM> Nothing ventured, nothing MM> gained. Mike Miller Do it, Mike! MM> major snip >>AMcG> This led us to hybrids >> >>Hybrids are simply the results of natural breeding methods (cross >>pollination) that happen to NOT reproduce true to seed, due the >>instability of the particular genetic cross. >> >>Further cross breeding (continued seed selection) can sometimes revert >>this reversion to type. In other words, if the cross proves stable and >>reproduces true to type, you've got a new OP variety on your hands, >>which is harder to make proprietary. It has also been found that the >>tension involved in a genetic cross that is inherently unstable can >>sometimes introduce a kind of temporary (since it doesn't reproduce) >>vigor in the progeny. Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Oct 29 23:45:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01920 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10353 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:18:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10285 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.231.144] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:15:59 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:14:16 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7926.991029@acnet.net> To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Do-it-yourself corn breeding In-reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC5@vela.phibred.com> References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC5@vela.phibred.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 Hi Dale, Friday, October 29, 1999, 9:46:24 AM, you wrote: ... DW> This kind of fundamental, human-mediated evolution lies at the DW> root of agriculture and is interlocked with the evolution of human DW> culture. Agreed. DW> Just about all our fruit species came from Asia, for DW> example. Disagreed. The avocado, papaya, tomato, the various classes of sapotes (white, yellow, mamee & chico), and the annonas (sp?) - like the cherimoya are all from the Americas, and there are varities of grapes and persimmons that are also; muskmelons are from Persia, bananas and watermelon from Africa, Mangos from India (this is just off the top of my head and there are no doubt many more). DW> Our most serious pests are fairly recent introductions DW> too. Such manipulation is only "unnatural" if you believe that DW> humans (or the human mind) is not part of nature. I am not saying DW> that everything we do is desirable or good, just that appeal to DW> natural law is a weak foundation in these matters. Glad we agree. >> The goal initially, with selection, cross pollination and >> grafting was to bend the plants to our needs- production, >> flavor and nutrition. The goal of hybrids was to do all >> this AND own a variety which didn't breed true- to make >> growers dependent on seed companies. >> The same is true of GMOs. They are obviously harder to reproduce >> and can be patented, since they're man made. (You know damn well >> that God wouldn't be caught dead creating such a thing). DW> Okay, Okay! let's deal with this head on. If I am smart and DW> organized enough to come up with superior varieties, what is wrong DW> with my protecting them from people who would steal them? Don't I DW> have a right to earn a living? Linux versus Microsoft. DW> Mike wrote (in response to Douglas I think): >> You are saying then that with some work/?luck? I can take my hybrid >> and turn it into a stable Open-Pollinated variety with the same >> characteristics. Then why are we spending all this money on hybrid >> seeds? so why not develop our own open pollinated types that works >> best in our own area? DW> Because selection pressures experienced by OP corn tend to select against DW> certain important traits. You want to begin by studying the issues involved. DW> But I would encourage you to try (if you do, I think you will DW> decide that Pioneer Seed is a pretty good deal). You might want to DW> emulate the successful 19th century farmer-seedsmen from whom we DW> have received our most productive germplasm, people like James DW> Reid (Reid Yellow Dent) and Issac Hershey (Lancaster Sure-Crop). DW> Forrest Troyer wrote an excellent review article on these OP DW> breeders "Background of U.S. Hybrid Corn" (Crop Science DW> 39:601-626) In summary he wrote "Adaptation is everything - the DW> sole driving force of evolutionary biology. Better adaptation to DW> the environment means higher yielding corn. U.S. corn breeding is DW> accelerated evolution to adapt a tropical crop to a temperate DW> environment." Good tips, Dale DW> Dale DW> PS: If anyone is interested in development of OP supersweets with good seed DW> vigor, I would be happy to share my germplasm with you and cooperate in DW> breeding. Good offer, Dale. That puts things one major step ahead. You may well become the Bill Stallings of the grow and share your own seed movement, cornerstone of the next green revolution (green in grass, not so much as in greenbacks. Having the grass greener on all sides of the fence). Who wants to take Dale up on this? Who else is interested in participating? Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Oct 29 22:35:49 1999 -0400 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01363 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14113 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:59:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14044 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id JAA06196; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:44:20 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id FAA22591; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 05:03:16 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199910292103.FAA22591@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 30 Oct 99 04:05:44 Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 >Wilson, Dale wrote: >> Chlorpyrifos has been around for a long time, and has a good safety record, >> although a few people claim to be highly sensitive to it. The fact that >> traces of this can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of >> a problem. > >Loren Muldowney wrote: >Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is >disregarded as being in the category of things we call "a problem." If they get their way, I can imagine the biotech industry later saying "the fact that traces of transgenic DNA can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of a problem." >> In fact, this is so widely used, it would be a surprise if you >> couldn't find it in your urine. > >No argument here. And I can imagine the biotech industry in the future likewise saying "in fact, transgenic DNA is so widely used it would be a surprise if you couldn't find it in your urine." I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination quite incredible... Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Oct 29 23:06:12 1999 -0400 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01555 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05657 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:29:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta006.topica.com (outmta006.topica.com [206.132.75.208]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA05599 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:29:32 -0400 (EDT) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Action Alert: Children Poisoned in Peru Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 19:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <0.700000050.618464126-212058698-941250439@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Action Alert: Children Poisoned in Peru October 29, 1999 At least 24 children died in a remote Andean village after eating a government-donated breakfast contaminated with the organophosphate insecticide parathion. Another 20 children were poisoned and required medical treatment. The breakfast was served to schoolchildren between the ages of three and fourteen in the village of Tauccamarca, province of Cusco, on Friday, October 22. The milk substitute based on wheat, corn, soy and barley and packets of cookies were provided by the National Fund for Social Development and Compensation (FONCODES), as part of a government-sponsored nutrition program. The wife of the school's only teacher prepared the meal with the help of a 14-year-old student. Children began vomiting and convulsing within a half hour of eating the contaminated food. "The kids were screaming, vomiting and grabbing their bellies. Some were dead, others were writhing on the grass and still more were on the school patio. We had no idea what to do," a village woman said, according to media sources. Children collapsed outside the school, on the dirt roads leading to their homes, and in the doorways of their parents' houses. Healthy children attempted to lead sick children to their homes but many died along the way. Some villagers were able to carry their children to the town of Huasac, a 1 1/2 hour walk from Tauccamarca, where they could be evacuated to a hospital in the city of Cusco, several hours away. Parents of the victims said that if there were a road to their village, or if they had medical services there, some of the children might have been saved. The Minister of Health and other government officials visited the village but did not claim responsibility for the disaster. President Alberto Fujimori made no comment. By the time national officials arrived on the scene, local police had confiscated the remainder of the government-provided food and it was not available for testing. The government has offered several possible explanations for the event. Initially officials suggested that the milk substitute had been prepared in containers previously used for pesticides. Later the Minister of Health said that a local resident might have mixed some of the milk substitute with insecticide with the intention of poisoning a dog. Government officials denied the possibility that the company providing the food for FONCODES programs might be responsible for the contamination. Meanwhile, the schoolteacher and his wife were arrested and accused of criminal negligence. Children in other parts of the country have also suffered symptoms of poisoning after eating government-donated food, but all have survived. In response to this tragedy, the Red de Acción en Alternativas al uso de Agroquímicos (RAAA -- PAN Latin America) is calling for the immediate prohibition of highly toxic pesticides classified by the World Health Organization as 1a (extremely hazardous) and 1b (highly hazardous). RAAA is calling on the government to recognize that it is impossible to guarantee the safety of highly toxic pesticides such as organophosphates. Many potential pesticide users in Peru are illiterate and have no way to learn about the risks associated with pesticides. Many villagers speak only their native language of Quechua, and do not know Spanish. In addition, many rural areas have no health care centers to treat victims of pesticide poisonings. Highly toxic pesticides should not be distributed in areas where the population has no protection against the risks associated with their use. RAAA is asking the Ministry of Health to implement a program of quality monitoring to ensure that government-donated food is not contaminated with toxic substances. The Ministries of Health and of Agriculture should also develop a program to track pesticide poisonings throughout the country. As part of this program, doctors and nurses should receive training in the symptoms and treatment of pesticide poisonings. Finally, RAAA is calling on the Peruvian government to enforce its existing pesticide laws and to implement laws promoting safer alternatives. RAAA requests that concerned groups and individuals support the campaign to eliminate these toxic pesticides by faxing letters as soon as possible to the following addresses: Ingeniero Belisario de la Casa Piedra Ministro de Agricultura Fax (511) 431 0109 Señor Luis Campo Baca Comisión de Medio Ambiente y Amazonía Congreso de la República Fax (511) 428 2543 Please also fax or email a copy of your letter to RAAA. Sources: RAAA press release, October 23, 1999; RAAA communications to Minister of Health and others, October 24, 1999; Juan Paliza, "Peru Probes Child Food-Poisoning Deaths," Reuters October 24, 1999; "Tainted Milk Kills 28 Peruvian Kids," Associated Press October 23, 1999; La República October 24-27, 1999 Contacts: Luis Gomero, Red de Acción en Plaguicidas y sus Alternativas para America Latina (RAPAL), Apartado Postal 11-0581, Lima, Peru, phone (51-1) 425 7955; fax (51-1) 337 5170; email rapalpe@mail.cosapidata.com.pe; PANNA =========================================== Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ Got a Favorite Topic to Discuss? Start a List at Topica. http://www.topica.com/t/4 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Oct 30 00:42:39 1999 -0400 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02334 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA25207 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:21:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25043 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id MAA11295; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:04:28 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA25084; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:32:06 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199910300432.MAA25084@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 30 Oct 99 11:33:56 Subject: RE: Benefit of BT Corn To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 >I tend to agree, but I don't like the idea of the government dictating what >varieties we must offer. If I were the head of product planning, I would >offer all the elite material as non-GMO hybrids to give customers the >choice. Keep in mind that often, the non-GMO version IS marketed, but just >not identified as the non-GMO equivalent of the more trendy GMO hybrid. Pioneer's official policy is much more important in this particular case than the personal opinions of its employees, no offense meant to you. Can you tell us if it is Pioneer's policy to always make available to the farmer the non-GMO version of a GMO hybrid? Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 03:46:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03326 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA21939 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA21905 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03191; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA02533; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:12:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: mike richardson cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: RE: no-till chemical use In-Reply-To: <381A0DD8.F951988F@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, mike richardson wrote: > Had some great replies to my post this a.m. on using no-till as an > envionmentally friendly farm tool. As to be expected, London and Clark > were not exactly enthusiasticly embracing my perspective. However, > rather than rant about my acceptance of no-till farming (as some would) > they both offered intelligent, reasoned arguments to the debate. > > 1. To London: Conventional tillage does indeed have tremendous > potential for environmental damage. One need only look to the gullied > Southern states in the first half of the century or to the infamous dust > bowl, or the ongoing devestation in China etc.. Soil erosion is neither > modest nor temporary (in human life terms) in many circumstances. Not This is very true but only very inept farmers would let this happen. All farmers in my area are acutely aware of the damage that occurs to their land from erosion and take the necessary steps to keep it from happening. I mentioned the Soil Saver (a very large chisel plow with a row of coulter blades in front for pre-cutting sod so it won't bind up ahead of the shanks) because it does a magnificent job of subsoiling and surface tillage; it leaves behind small or no furrows, which if used correctly can channel runoff across contours and in dry season can direct needed runoff from sparse rainfall from non-cropped areas to cropped for absorption and use. I probably need definitions of reduced tillage, no-till and ridge-till so I can better respond to your argument for no-till. My hay-farming neighbor "no-till drills" his Fall oat planting. I think this means cutting a slice in the sod and depositing seeds therein. My other farmer neighbor, the dairyman, describes his use of the Soil Saver as "reduced tillage" (my words), i.e. less disruption of the soil, less erosion, more organic matter retained. I have seen him use this implement; weeks after applying manure to the land, when the soil is adequately dry, as he pulls it over hundreds of acres the soil literally boils like an ocean wave rolling in on the beach behind his tractor. Loosening the soil to a great depth and aerating it combined with it's high organic matter content, high N and intense microbial life create this fine farm soil. Year after year, it only gets better. Using the Soil Saver in the Fall when the soil is dry enough leaves the land capable of absorbing much of the increased rain expected in the cold season with little or no erosion. Strip cropping could effectively control any erosion that did occur. In fact narrow-strip cropping could be really effective in this respect, especially in hilly country; strips could be only as wide as the Soil Saver. This man has operated in the black for decades and has never borrowed a penny and has never done anything but dairy farm. I don't really know how much herbicide he uses but I feel sure he keeps it to an absolute minimum; IOW he uses it very rarely. This method I have heard of using reduced or no till followed by cover cropping followed by burning down the CC for mulch, then follow with notill plant grain/bean/hay seems to me poor planning and highly destructive to the environment. Careful, timely tillage and different cover crop schemes can eliminate most weed problems. My first response to your proposal for no-till was to suggest ways of using tillage to control and eliminate weeds, thus precluding the need for herbicide. Incresed soil tilth and organic matter content also result from this method. > all farms are blessed with rich, loamy soils, on nearly flat fields. > And I agree, there are probably other tillage methods that would work I can't see any reason to work marginal farmland. And I can;t see any reason to sell off prime farmland for residential/commercial development. There ought to be laws ..... > for those type of farms. However, much of our productive farm land is > rolling and it is not practical or economical to suggest that row crop > farmers should just pick up and move to the flat, flat land of loamy > soils. There are ways to work rolling land but it may not be possible to accomplish miracles overnight. > I do agree wholeheartedly that rotations are healthy for soils and crops > alike. Monoculture is a bane on agriculture. However I disagree on > using fallow land in a rotation except in unusual circumstances. Land Leaving land fallow for a period is part of the weed eradication scheme I am suggesting. You have to allow enough time for specific cover crops to mature and crowd out undesirable competing plants. Like lespedeza some crops don't spread readily by seed and are easily cut under for organic matter to never or rarely return. L really covers the ground with dense shade. I have seen it outcompete (and in poor, hard, rocky soil, too) blackberry, honeysuckle, johnson grass, bermudagrass, rye and fescue grass. By the time L matures, many nearby weeds will have exhausted themselves and disappeared. Some mowing may be necessary along the way. The soil will have had a chance to rebound as will earthworms and microbial life. > that is farmed around here is much too expensive to lay idle, and much As I said, miracles don't always happen overnight. > too rolling (read erosive) to be fallow tilled during the growing > season. I am not suggesting doing that. > Use of cover crops, rotation with grass, and rotation of crop > species are much more practical. I am suggesting this also. > I am not familiar with the tillage tool that you described. However I > do remember seeing a demonstration of a "para plow" a few years ago that > I thought had promise, but haven't heard much of since. The para plow > went nearly as deep as a subsoil shank, but had "wings" at the base that > lifted and fractured the soil above. Very narrow surface tillage, with > similar efffects to breaking up the plow layer of soil with a > conventional plow, as well as improving the tilth of the upper subsoil. > Good tool when used with reduced tillage systems, it seemed. The "para plow" soounds just like the Yeomans Plow. Farmers owe it to themselves to have a look at the Soil Saver, the chisel plow and the Yeomans plow. Then there are hilling and bedding implements ....... > 2. To Clark: I think I understand your thread that instead of > growing annual row crops for beef that we should grow beef on grass > instead. Point taken, although I've eaten both grass fed and grain > finished beef, and much prefer grain fed. However, please remember that > not all annual row crops are grown for (non-human) animal consumption. > Besides many food products, annual crops such as soybeans and cotton > provide material for other uses for instance. Row crops would continue > to be a major portion of agriculture, even if never another grain was > fed to a single cow. > > Also, I would tend to not accept at face value any statement that > conventional tillage does better during dry weather than no-till, > without knowing the circumstance. It sounds like it might be more in > the line of an exception to the rule, rather than the rule. > > And lastly (whew!) if land is being drained with tiles, then why would > anyone need to use no-till? Reduced tillage, or even ridge tillage > maybe, but no-till is especially useful on rolling lands to stop soil > erosion. Fields with subsurface tiling shouldn't have water erosion > problems. > > To all: > > While I do not ascertain that no-till is the final word in > environmentaly sound farming, I will not throw it out just because there > are some chemicals used. Keep up the debate folks, and lets hear from > some others besides London, Clark, or myself! Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 06:27:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04150 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 06:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA21579 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 06:10:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21523 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 06:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19269 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 06:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 199; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 05:15:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991030051116.01493d50@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 05:11:16 -0500 To: "Wilson, Dale" , "'Paul Schmitmeyer'" From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Cc: Sanet In-Reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC2@vela.phibred.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Dear Dale, Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of both property rights and human rights. The tobacco companies and gun companies are showing the way in terms of litigation as one approach to this kind of violation. I believe that the pesticide companies will be the next ones hauled into court, followed soon thereafter by the biotech companies. Sincerely, Mark Ritchie At 08:19 AM 10/29/99 -0500, Wilson, Dale wrote: >Paul, > >> Just what is chloropyrifos? > >Chlorpyrifos (Lorsban, Dursban) is a moderately toxic, moderately persistent >(in the environment, not in the body) organophosphate insecticide that is >very widely used for many things like termite control, flea collars, foliar >application, lawn insect control, in-furrow application (eg for rootworms), >and indoors for ant and roach control. > >http://ace.orst.edu/cgi-bin/mfs/01/pips/chlorpyr.htm > >http://www.dowagro.com/main/product_results.asp > >Chlorpyrifos has been around for a long time, and has a good safety record, >although a few people claim to be highly sensitive to it. The fact that >traces of this can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of >a problem. In fact, this is so widely used, it would be a surprise if you >couldn't find it in your urine. > >Dale > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 09:34:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00902 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21308 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:05:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.internet.com.mx (mail.internet.com.mx [200.10.239.229]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21220 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ssc053.sancristobal.com.mx (customer-23-246-140.uninet.net.mx [200.23.246.140] (may be forged)) by mail.internet.com.mx (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA01689 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:03:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991030075802.00736f88@mail.internet.com.mx> X-Sender: danamex@mail.internet.com.mx X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:58:02 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Ronald Nigh Subject: Farmer plant breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id JAA21250 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 Dale Wilson wrote: >Crossing is a lot harder with crops like beans, wheat, soybeans, but selfing >is a lot easier (just grow the crop). The crossed population segregates, in >the course of several generations, into a mixture of pure lines. >Land-race varieties of self pollinated crops, unlike corn, are mixtures of >pure-lines, each of which breed true. Much gain is made initially by >selection, but then gain declines to practically zero... "Gain" in terms of increasing a given trait (yield, oil content) in a constant environment perhpas...but as Forest Troyer said, "Adaptation is everything - the sole driving force of evolutionary biology. Better adaptation to the environment means higher yielding corn.." Evolution is adaptation to a specific and changing environment and that is what farmer breeding achieves. So really the "gain" in this sense does not decline. But my question is how do farmer do this with self-pollinating crops? That is why the "sistem lines" research is interesting. For example. Chiapas is center for maize diversity. It easy to see how this diversity is maintained and used te create further diversity by farmers. But Chiapas is also a center of bean diversity. Every village seems to have its own bean variety. In general in Mexico bean diversity is astounding. How is this done? Ronald Nigh Dana, A.C. Mexico, D.F. & San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas Tel. y FAX 525-666-73-66 (DF) 529-678-72-15 (Chiapas) danamex@mail.internet.com.mx To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 11:53:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01856 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00814 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:37:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00740 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:40:29 -0500 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.135] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A092B1801E8; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:36:50 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 15:34:42 +0100 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Proposed organic cost share program Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT, Erorganic@aol.com wrote: >Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of USDA >supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears to me >members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis of >its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and >handlers. >My concerns are gargantuan. Eric and I frequently disagree. Not this time. He who pays the piper, calls the tune. It would be entirely consistent with past bureaucratic motives if the purpose of this was simply to make certified farmers more dependent on bureaucrats, thereby securinging the bureaucrats' jobs in this little developing empire at the National Organic Program. >The Agricultural Marketing Service appears to >have proposed the organic certification cost share program. The cynical side of me sees this as a means of gaining more control over FVO and OCIA particularly, as these are both "high standards" programs, neither of which (to my knowledge) has ever taken a nickel of government money. We can't have such important programs so immune to our control, now, can we ...? In a private message to Anita Graf answering her question to me about how it is that Canada --- with its rather tight controls on election expenditures, PACs and such --- can still have so much of the same problems of favoritism, croneyism, special deals and so on, I said, ++Same shenanigans, same waste, same corruption as in the US. Most of the ++dirty work is done within the bureaucracy, as it is in the US. Bureaucrats are generally invisible, unavailable, and unaccountable. They can do a lot of good, and many are unsung heroes. More often they do an amazing amount of anonymous harm. >The money ultimately ends up going >first to certified farmers [snip] and then is passed >back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by them. > In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use tax >money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic Program. In a time of tight budgets, bureaucrats are as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs... the most effective way to raise taxes is through all sorts of hidden fees, especially if they come direct to your little domain. >In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to >certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically produced" >for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has >increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these farmers >have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of >organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a >proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of farmer >applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic >farming. Very sadly, Eric, you understate the case. I see these guys all the time as an inspector. Just one example, from your state of Iowa... Conventional farmer with many hundreds of acres in heavy duty corn (anhydrous, etc). He had 130 acres (55 ha) that had been in the federal Conservation Reserve Program (at a tidy annual rent) for ten years. The whole thing was planted to food soybeans for 1999, which he wanted certified. The entire 130 acres was going to go *back* into CRP in 2000. In the course walking the field it became obvious to me that he had used herbicide(s) --- probably Pinnacle and Pursuit --- on the whole field. He didn't get certified, but I'll bet there are a lot more out there like him, and some of them *do* get certified. The real weak link in the whole system right now is INSPECTION. Many inspectors do not have practical production experience or knowledge. Relatively few have any understanding of *conventional* production --- its methods, its materials, and (above all) its *attitudes.* Increasing the number of applicants by encouraging them with subsidies is potentially disastrous for the little credibility remaining in the industry. The organic industry has largely done this to itself, with its slavish and anal-retentive preoccupation with *materials* rather than farm systems. It simply doesn't take as much understanding of agriculture to haggle over materials as it does to codify the irreducible minimum of a healthy system management. Because it's easier for programs (and bureaucrats) to haggle over materials, we have ironically undermined the entire inspection process. Inspecting for materials use is *NOT* easy. In fact, it is probably the most difficult aspect of the entire system to monitor. There are farms I *know* got sprayed within hours of when I headed down the lane for my next inspection. What really matters is how the whole system is put together and managed. That is difficult to codify, but once codified is relatively easy to inspect, even for inspectors of modest ability. There is absolutely no way, for example, that I could determine whether or not an applicant as used 25 kg/ha of Chilean nitrate, or 125 kg/ha, other than to trust his answer. That standard, therefore, is un-inspectable, un-verifiable, and thereby useless. What is *easy* to inspect is whether or not there is at least 25% legume sod in the rotation, and whether or not the applicant has a *written* management protocol for standard materials and procedures used in that particular operation. Less than 2% of the farms I inspected in 1999 had a written protocol for mineral fertility management, even though it is clearly required in the standards. If you think that doesn't matter, go back to the archives and review my comments about soil minerals and crop quality from about 3 weeks ago. The key questions are: a) Is this system designed and managed so as maximise system health and crop quality; b) Is it designed and managed to minimise the need for chemical inputs; c) Is this management protocol documented and followed, and d) Is there a chain of custody guaranteeing that the harvest has not been contaminated or co-mingled. Having de-emphasised these most important managerial elements (which are the *easiest* to inspect), and having over-emphasised materials (which are very difficult to inspect), the organic business has left itself extremely vulnerable. Federal cost sharing and the resultant influx of desperate conventional growers may well be all that is needed to tip an already-unstable system into the abyss. >There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants for >organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic >product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff of >the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic markets >for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under OFPA. >Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal >government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, >continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions that >are simply un-natural, not "organic." This is an additional cause for concern, but if the inspectability problem isn't resolved, it may not matter. There are inspectors (and certification committee members) out here with enough concrete examples to seriously damage the demand side of "organic" equation in the course of a single interview on '60-minutes.' Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Oct 30 10:14:52 1999 -0400 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01271 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25211; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:12:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24931 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:09:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Erorganic@aol.com Received: from Erorganic@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id mXNQ0Yjg0m (3859) for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.7c591772.254c4450@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT Subject: Against a proposed organic cost share program To: Organic4um@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Hello all, Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of USDA supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears to me members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis of its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and handlers. I have heard none. My concerns are gargantuan. Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now, with the only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by Congress is to establish the National Organic Program. That has taken 10 years primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired to manage the proposed program. The Agricultural Marketing Service appears to have proposed the organic certification cost share program. What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating this proposal? Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be so high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified organic farm or handling operation? Doesn't such a proposed cost share diffuse and cover over the much more important OFPA mandated statement of "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties? Who really gains form such a program? --The money ultimately ends up going first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why not?) who pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of operations and farm/handler certification market share) and then is passed back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by them. In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use tax money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic Program. I am not clear on how fees collected from farmer/handler applicants and/or accredited certifying agents must be used by USDA. Perhaps, such funds cannot be directly deposited to AMS/NOP accounts. In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically produced" for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these farmers have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of farmer applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic farming. I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share, meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned response for those so applying. We see the utter collapse of the conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost share" program initiated during the 30's depression. A cost share program is worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why would any of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling operations on a government hand-out program? There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants for organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff of the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic markets for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under OFPA. Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions that are simply un-natural, not "organic." And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or handling businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification. If a farm or handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification. With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring everyone's attention to fact that supporting iinstituting of such programs without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think. We fully understand that inserting such a program as part of the language of the second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment does offer some degree of public dialogue. But, we question whether this proposal originated or has been thoroughly discussed within the private sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect will be felt. Best regards, Eric Kindberg From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 14:01:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02744 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26707 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:47:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26658 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24969 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA18277; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from benbrook (pm9-1.nidlink.com [216.18.141.56]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA05193; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910301745.KAA05193@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:58:18 -0700 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, , From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Pioneer Policy re GMOs and Non-GMOs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 Questions and concerns have arisen recently on AgOnline, Sanet and other Internet lists regarding seed company policy re making available to farmers corn hybrids with advanced genetics, adapted to various regions with and without GMO genes/characteristics. National corn grower associations have raised strong concerns. Individual farmers have complained that in the 1998-1999 seasons, the best adapted hybrids for their soil/climatic region have been offered just in GMO versions (for examples, see the meeting notes from the June 1999 EPA-USDA Bt-corn resistance management meeting, ). Three issues have surfaced in several venues -- 1. Seed available only in GMO versions 2. Inadequate supply of the non-GMO seed was available, and hence those purchasing seed later in the season had limited choice 3. Farmers and others have had difficulty discerning which hybrid is the otherwise similar non-GMO version of a GMO variety. On the third issue, Pioneer has apparently heard farmers and has recently adapted its web page resources to make it very clear what the base genetics is for any herbicide tolerant or Bt hybrid. For example on the Iowa corn hybrid page, go to -- http://www.pioneer.com/us_products/iowa/corn/default.htm The columns in the characteristics tables are straightforward; the fourth column reports "Base Genetics," which is defined as -- "Identifies the non-converted hybrid which is modified to include new technologies. Mange similarly to the base genetic hybrid." On the first and second issue, it is clear on the Pioneer Iowa corn hybrid page that some of the non-engineered base genetic hybrids are not offered in 1999-2000. For example, the first variety listed -- 38P06 is a Bt hybrid with base genetics 38P05, but 38P05 is not listed in the ratings, suggesting it is not offered for sale in Iowa. The Pioneer "Iowa Corn Characteristics Ratings" page lists 23 Bt hybrids. Of these 23, the non-GMO versions are listed, and hence presumably available in 7 cases; they are not listed and hence presumably not offered in 13 cases; and the "Base Genetics" is not identified in 3 cases. Dale, if I missed something, please correct the record. These observations lead to a couple of questions which I hope someone from Pioneer will address -- * In the 13 cases where the "Base Genetics" hybrid is not offered, do farmers have a choice of very similar genetics? If so, how would they know? * In the 3 cases where "Base Genetics" are not identified, what other modifications have been made in those varieties? What genetic changes have been incorporated in these varieties in addition to adding the Bt trait? Information on the supply, demand and sale of different hybrids by region is needed to definitively answer questions related to the first two issues noted above. Such information is highly guarded by seed companies. We will have to await for any official word from Pioneer and/or other seed companies re their policies. I do know from several years of interactions with Pioneer people that Pioneer's policy is to offer for sale the hybrids and genetics that farmers are demanding. If demand grows for non-GMO varieties, it is fair to say, based on the company's history, that Pioneer will expand its offerings of non-GMO seed. If this proves not the case, farmers will complain and move to other companies. Both reactions will be unambiguous. If there is an overall nationwide shortage of non-GMO varieties next year, we will also hear about this and there will be consequences and the seed companies will have to respond. The adequacy of that response will determine whether and to what extent government actions are seen as necessary to restore a greater degree of responsive in the market. In the case of DeKalb (see url below), the information re GMO and matching non-GMO genetics is also pretty obvious in most cases, since most GMO hybrid designations are simply tacked onto the non-GMO variety -- for example, DK471 -- the modifier "IMI" for imidazolinone herbicide tolerance is added right after the 471, so that the modified hybrid becomes DK471IMI. Plus, in most cases, the herbicide tolerant or Bt transgenic hybrids follow right after the non-GMO base genetics, so no major mysteries here. There are exceptions on the DeKalb page -- for example DK545BtY is a Bt variety obviously, but the closest match in a non-GMO version appears to be DK540. If enough people raise questions, perhaps DeKalb will match Pioneer's lead and add a column to its characteristics tables which report "Base Genetics." DeKalb characteristics table for Iowa/corn -- http://216.17.44.19/seed2k/ProductCat.asp?cat=8&prod=5 Given the concerns re availability in GMO versus non-GMO seed for the year 2000 season, and the major uncertainty all seed companies face in predicting demand in today's highly volatile environment, it seems really important for USDA and the corn growers associations to develop cooperatively a survey of corn growers, to be undertaken in late spring, regarding their corn variety purchasing decisions. There will be all sorts of anecdotal information floating around, much of it subject to a degree of spin since almost no one these days has a completely dispassionate and disinterested perspective on these matters. Hence, the value of timely information from a properly designed statistical survey. If the survey documents significant mismatches between the genetics offered and farmer demand, it will hasten and help shape responses in both the public and private sectors and provide a baseline against which to monitor improvement in future years. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 17:54:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06511 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA08016 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:37:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08010 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.244.71.184.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.244.71.184]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04748; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381A7BC7.C61D4B0A@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:01:59 -0700 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Ann Clark" CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: no-till chemical use (long) References: <3819A43F.76778695@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> <3819C685.337C4AFE@uoguelph.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 How about, instead of all the fuss with this/that method, people use the Scriptural sabbatical year, when the land is let alone for a whole 7th year period. After all the Creator who set up the entire landscape is the one who said to make use of the 7th year total rest for the land. Yes, I know someone here just said it couldnot be done, economically, but who knows more than God does? E. Ann Clark wrote: > Folks: > > mike (son of richard) richardson wrote regarding no-till: > > > However, it certainly can have tremendous environmental > > benefits, compared to conventional farming (deep plowing, disking, > > cultivating, etc.) Yes, generally more chemical amounts are used. > > However, since the killed vegetation reduces soil erosion to near zero > > (major benefit), absorbs chemicals, slows surface water movement, > > reduces fertilizer loss, enhances water movement into the soil profile, > > etc. then there is less chemical running off into surface waters. As > > for chemical leaching into the ground water, that can be a problem with > > some chemicals used in no-till and conventional tillage (atrizine types > > for instance). However, many chemicals do break down while in the soil, > > so as they are moving through the soil they tend to degrade. No-till > > also enhances soil tilth, reduces fossile fuel use (thereby reducing air > > pollution and global warming), lowers labor and equipment costs to the > > farmer, and has been proven to maintain or even increase yields. > > Pasture - which is an "alternate" form of the livestock nutrition (grains) > produced with no-till - does all of the above, and better - without need for > chemicals in the first place. Let's not frame the discussion so narrowly as > to create a strawman-type argument. If we really stand back and analyze land > use practices objectively (whatever that is), starting with - what do we grow > these crops for in the first place - this opens up a much wider array of > options than just no-till or till. > > Might also add that even well managed no-till inherently and inescapably > creates a whole suite of problems (which well managed pasture doesn't), > including weed shifts to favor hard-to-control perennials like dandelion and > quack. The obligatory dependence on herbicides (to the exclusion of all other > approaches) also accelerates herbicide resistance (note Benbrook's > authoritative commentary earlier on the increase in mean glyphosate use in the > US in just the last few years, owing largely to no-till and RR crops (probably > in that order too). > > In Ontario, long-time no-till farmers (experienced and commited people; > leaders in the field) have begun to plow up their land, following several dry > years in a row. For reasons that I still do not understand (given all the > presumed increase in soil OM and water conservation under no-till (which is > disputed, see below)), no-till land apparently has performed worse than tilled > land under dry conditions. I'd have thought the reverse. It may have > something to do with the accumulation of macropore space opening directly to > the surface, conveying water too readily down to tiles before it can be > absorbed. These same uninterrupted macropores, by the way, also convey liquid > manure, herbicides, and anything else that has been surface applied directly > down to tiles and out into surface water systems - completely bypassing buffer > strips and other vehicles recommended to protect the integrity of > watercourses. > > Colleagues in Land Resource Science tell me that no-till slows down the rate > of loss of OM under annual arable cropping, but does NOT increase full-profile > soil OM. Distribution is affected, with more concentrating in the surface > layers, but less in the lower layers, with a net effect that total OM does NOT > increase. The only way to materially increase soil OM is to withhold the land > from cultivation under a perennial sod - like a pasture or hay field. > > And then there is the issue of N-use efficiency. I recall a paper co-authored > by Rennie (former dean of ag at Sask and major proponent of conservation > tillage) showing the potential for anaerobic microsites and anaerobiosis under > surface vegetation on no-tilled land in the spring promoted denitrification > and N-loss on wheat land. The amounts were fairly hefty if memory serves - > say, 20-50 kg N/ha. > > Surface residues also keep soil colder longer, which effectively shortens the > growing season in a short season climate, such as we have in Canada. Surface > residues, particularly in combination with cold, can also retard plant > establishment and seedling vigor, promoting susceptibility to a range of soil > damping-off and other pathogens. > > Only certain crops *can* be grown no-till, which reduces rotation complexity > and hampers the ability to constructively design rotations to deal with weed, > pest, and nutrient management issues. > > Another unintended effect of no-till is leaving allelochemically active > residues on the soil surface, where they can impact weed and subsequent crop > growth. As it happens, one of the major no-till crops in Canada is no-till > wheat. Research by Purvis et al., in Australia, has shown that the > allelochemics released by decomposing wheat straw stimulate wild oat > germination and growth. Thus, failure to incorporate the residues created a > mega-problem with wild oats. And wild oats are a major problem in the > prairies, which have adopted no-till wheat with a vengence. > > So, from a different (pro-pasture, admittedly) vantage point, no-till is a > proprietary band-aid to patch up a arable crop technology (annual tillage to > produce annual grain crops) that is fundamentally at odds with the ecological > integrity of farm land. The problem(s) with tillage is soil erosion and > degradation, with consequent effects on related processes, as water use > efficiency. So, no-till addresses those issues, but in so doing, creates a > suite of other issues. Pasture - which is what ruminants are actually evolved > to eat in the first place - avoids most of these issues entirely (granted, you > have to manage it to avoid overgrazing, erosion, etc.). Admittedly, pasture > also creates some potential problems, relating to soil compaction (and water > infiltration etc.) and N leaching/volatilization - although these are at least > partly managable through such practices as restricting labile N (less chemical > N; lower % legume). > > Management intensive grazing is a largely non-proprietary technology which can > be mastered by men, women, and children, can be a useful (if not sole) source > of nutrition year-around (even in Canada), and can retain a much larger share > of farm gate receipts in the hands of farmers than no-till, conventional till, > or any kind of annual arable cropping. > > Perhaps that is one of the reasons why commodity-specific subsidy/entitlement > programs always favor annual crops and completely omit pasture (and often hay) > crops. Ann > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 20:08:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07501 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05407 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:44:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05340 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.254.241.195] (term6-3.vta.west.net [205.254.241.195]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0554E24A34; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: , From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: Swiss farmers seek compensation for GE contamination of maize seed Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 [In response to Sal's query from a couple days ago:] Swiss soiled seed prompts tolerance question by Ingeborg Furst Nature Biotechnology, Volume 17 / July 1999 Page 629 On July 1, the Swiss government's tolerance standard for genetic purity of food comes into effect. Switzerland is the first country in Europe to set a limit for genetic contamination, but current controversy over genetically contaminated corn seeds highlights the urgent EU-wide need for such a standard for crops. In May, it was discovered by the Swiss Department of Agriculture (Budesamt fur Landwirtschaft; Bern) and the district president of Baden-Wurtlemberg (Tubingen, Germany) that Pioneer Hi-Bred's (Des Moines, IA) nongenetically modified corn seed varieties, Ulla and Benicia, actually contained novel genes from a variety of corn genetically modified to be resistant to the corn borer, Bacillus thuringiensis. Contamination of the seeds, which were harvested in the United States, was "probably caused by stray pollen during the growing season," says Ulrich Schmidt, managing director of Pioneer in Buxtehude, Germany, which represents the grain manufacturer in Switzerland. It is likely that incorporation of pollen from GM varieties into Ulla and Benicia occurred this way because "Pioneer does not offer a commercial GM variety of Ulla or Benicia." Before the contamination was discovered, Pioneer had sold enough Ulla and Benicia seeds to sow 400 hectares (roughly 0.5% of total corn cultivation in Switzerland), about 200 hectares of which had already been planted. Estimates of the amount of genetic contamination of non-GM DNA by GM DNA vary between 0.1 and 0.5%-- respectively below the limit set in both countries for contamination resulting from physical mixing of varieties. Under German and Swiss seed market laws, this "technical" contamination with seed from weed and other varieties can be as high as 3% and 5%, respectively. But because there are no tolerance standards set for genetic purity, the contaminated Pioneer seeds are not approved for release into the environment, and planting therefore infringes the Swiss environment conservation law (Umweltschutzgesetz), as well as violating the German gene technology law (Gentechnikgesetz). As a result, the Swiss Department of Agriculture (Bundesamt fur Landwirtschaft, Bern) has prohibited the import and trade of contaminated Ulla and Benicia and has ordered the destruction of any already sown. However, Pioneer and the entire grain industry are not able to guarantee the genetic purity of their conventional non-GM varieties, says Schmidt. "Genetic inserts are in the nature of things," agrees Rainer Linneweber, spokesperson for Novartis Seed (Bad Salzuflen, Germany). "Despite our high-level quality management and our ISO certification, even a 100% [technical] purity for conventional seed is utopian," he adds. But although the Swiss government has now set a 1% tolerance standard for genetic contamination of food, such a standard for crops remains absent. In the meantime, both Switzerland and Germany have analyzed the contaminated seed: The Swiss Department of Agriculture could detect by PCR the presence but not the amount of DNA sequences from GM corn varieties. But analysis ordered by the Baden-Wurttemberg district has called two specific GM varieties into question &endash; one from Pioneer and one from another unnamed grain manufacturer, according to Grit Puchan, spokesperson for the Baden-Wurttemberg district. "We still need to clarify whether or not these GM-corn seed varieties have been granted marketing approval in the EU and subsequently in Germany," says Puchan. If they have, the release of their contaminants would already be approved under the existing EU 90/220 directive. In this case, Pioneer must simply label the seeds accordingly to satisfy German authorities, says Edgar Muschketat, spokesperson for the Berlin-based Robert-Koch-Institut, which approves the release of GMOs into the environment. But this question is irrelevant, according to Hans-Georg Dederer, jurist at the Institute for Public Law at the University of Bonn, who says a loophole in the law means that genetically contaminated seeds need no special approval under 90/220. "A crop genetically modified by stray pollen is not a product within the meaning of 90/220, because 'product' implies a willful preparation," he says. Meanwhile, a "witch hunt-like atmosphere" reigns in Switzerland, says Klaus Ammann, director of the Botanic Garden at the University of Bern and member of the Commission for Biosafety (Kommission fur biologische Sicherheit). But although some corn fields have been destroyed by fire or herbicides, many farmers (mainly in western Switzerland) refuse to destroy the corn until Pioneer and the Swiss government agree to compensate them. In addition, the Swiss farmers' association (Schweizerischer Bauernverband) is deciding whether to file a class action lawsuit against Pioneer (via the Swiss seed importer), and Pioneer is considering halting sales via the Swiss seed importer to farmers in Switzerland. As Nature Biotechnology was going to press, the Swiss seed importer Eric Schweizer Samen AG agreed to pay farmers 700 Swiss Francs per hectare. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 20:08:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07500 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01280 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:41:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01200 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29373 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.254.241.195] (term6-3.vta.west.net [205.254.241.195]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 47F3224B34 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: BSE fears prompt USDA order to destroy Vermont flock Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id TAA01205 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Sunday, October 24, 1999 Rutland (Vermont) Herald and Sunday Times Argus WARREN Linda Faillace keeps her emotions under control until she gets to the point in her story when she told her children their animals face a death sentence. The tears start to flow, and she is forced to break off her account of how her small sheep farm became the focus of the government's concern over food safety. Six years of work, numerous trips to Europe, intensive research on animal health and genetics have come to this: Federal officials want the Faillaces' flock of imported sheep destroyed because of a possibility they may have been exposed to an untreatable, always fatal brain disease that could spread to humans. The Faillaces' saga extends to the science of emerging diseases and the politics of international trade. But it's also a story of one family's attempt to start a new agricultural enterprise in a state where traditional dairy farming is threatened. The East Friesian sheep the family brought in from Belgium and the Netherlands make prodigious amounts of milk, which is then used to produce a variety of specialty cheeses. While an average U.S. sheep used for milking may give 100 pounds of milk a year, these tall, long-eared ewes can produce 1,000 pounds annually. Although the cheese is selling well, the real money was supposed to come from the sale of breeding stock. Because the USDA halted imports soon after the Faillaces bought their sheep in 1996, the Warren operation and another farm in Greensboro have the only U.S. flocks of East Friesian sheep. The Greensboro farm belongs to Houghton Freeman, a philanthropist whose Freeman Foundation has donated millions of dollars for education and land conservation efforts in Vermont. Freeman and the Faillaces saw the East Friesian breed as having strong potential for Vermont agriculture. Freeman invested significant amounts of money in launching his sheep operation, which is run by a young couple. "In reality, there probably isn't a return for him," said his lawyer, Thomas Amidon. "The return is the (sheep) genetics would be something helpful to Vermont hillside farms." It's as if these were the only two farms in the early days of the dairy industry to own high-producing Holstein cows. Others looking to get in on the ground floor of the emerging dairy sheep business have offered up to $25,000 for a bred ewe, Faillace says. The business plan is now on hold, while state and federal officials decide their next move. The animals were imported under a plan approved by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. They were certified free of scrapie a sheep brain disease that has been endemic in Europe and the United States for years and were quarantined in both Europe and this country. But last year, federal agriculture officials told the Faillaces they wanted to buy and then destroy the 300 animals held on their farm and on the Freeman farm in Greensboro. Government specialists said that the sheep came from an area of Europe where bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) had been found and that they could potentially harbor the deadly disease. The sheep are not sick, and the cheese is safe to eat. But at the USDA's request, the state Department of Agriculture quarantined both flocks in 1998. BSE is more commonly known as Mad Cow Disease, and is believed to have infected and killed in its human variant 46 people in the United Kingdom. The disease the word "spongiform" describes the holes it leaves in brains is insidious and always fatal. Its victims become disoriented and then slip into dementia and death. The U.K. outbreak led to a ban on British beef sales and the slaughter of millions of animals there. BSE has not been found in U.S. cattle, according to the USDA. However, U.S. officials are concerned because laboratory experiments in which infected cow brains were injected into other species have shown that the disease can be transmitted from cows to sheep. The disease may also have been spread by a common but little-known practice of feeding animal meal to herbivores. Until the practice was curbed, commercial feed mills bought meat and bone meal for use as a protein source in feed. Many researchers believe the BSE outbreak in the United Kingdom began when cattle were fed meal made from infected animals. Some also believe that meal made from sheep infected with scrapie a disease related to BSE jumped the species barrier and may have caused Mad Cow Disease in the United Kingdom. Belgium and the Netherlands both had cases of BSE, and the USDA says the Vermont sheep may have been exposed through feed. But the Faillaces argue there is no chance their sheep, or their forebears in Europe, were fed processed animal meal. They say their flock doesn't have scrapie. They have documentation that feed mills in the area where the sheep originated did not use animal products. No sheep has contracted BSE, outside the laboratory, they note. And tests on their sheep for a telltale protein that indicates the presence of BSE have all turned up negative. Larry Faillace, who holds a doctorate in animal health and worked in the early 1990s for a leading British researcher who advised the government on BSE, is confident the science is on their side. "The chances of any sheep in the world (getting BSE) are remote. The chances of these particular sheep getting it well, you'd have a better chance of a meteor landing on your front step tomorrow," he says. Freeman is also incredulous that the USDA wants the animals killed, after first helping to bring the animals into the country. "My client has said show us the evidence. There isn't any," says Amidon, the philanthropist's lawyer. But USDA officials have insisted for over a year that the most prudent course is for both flocks to be slaughtered. Nothing less than the national interest is at stake, according to Alfonso Torres, deputy USDA administrator. "The high stakes involved mandate very conservative measures if there is a possibility of the sheep being infected with the BSE agent. We are conscious that these actions require difficult choices on your part," Torres told the Faillaces in a letter this spring. "However this is a case in which the welfare of our nation must be placed above any other consideration." For a long time Linda and her husband had not discussed the issue with their three children, all of whom work on the farm. (Fifteen-year-old Francis does the pasture management; Heather, 13, does the daily milking; and Jackie, 12, is the cheesemaker along with her father.) But after a meeting with the USDA last October, the parents broke the news that the animals might have to be killed. "We sat down with our children and explained to them what was going on," Linda says, pausing to control her tears. "At that point, what we found out is that our children are as obstinate as we are. They said, 'No way, there's nothing wrong with our sheep.'" The Faillaces mustered scientific evidence. They flew over top veterinarians from Europe to meet with the USDA and an official from the National Institutes of Health. Their experts insisted the sheep were disease-free and safe. But USDA officials did not back down. Now the Vermont Department of Health, which only recently learned of the problem from state agriculture officials, has weighed in. After a meeting last week with Health Commissioner Jan Carney, the Faillaces believe Carney also wants the animals destroyed. Carney who is expected to rule on the issue this week did not return several calls for comment. "We're not real positive about what she's going to say," Linda says. "When she heard we were making cheese, she was shocked. … She (Carney) said if there's any risk, she has to protect the public." Indeed, if Larry and Linda Faillace have a ready rebuttal for every concern raised by the USDA, government officials also have a compelling comeback. Dr. Linda Detwiler, a leading BSE specialist and a veterinarian with the USDA's Animal Plant Health Inspection Service, says the public would be justifiably outraged if BSE did spread to the United States and the government had not done everything possible to stop it. Detwiler also notes there is some sign although the Faillaces dispute the significance that the brains of sheep culled from both farms have "vacules," small holes that could possibly indicate a spongiform disease. "The overriding issue is human health," Detwiler says. "If you protect animals, then you protect humans. If we ignore (the disease potential) and something happened, somebody could come back and say, 'Did you know they could have been exposed?' We'd have to say yes. And if they ask, 'Was there any indication in the brains of the animals (that they carried the disease)?' We'd have to say, 'Possibly, yes.' ... We don't know all the answers, but I think we know enough to be conservative." Detwiler acknowledges that there is nothing "overtly" wrong with the Vermont sheep. She says the issue "is exposure, or potential exposure." Neither the Faillaces nor the farmers who sold them the animals can be absolutely sure that the feed in Europe did not contain meat or bone meal, according to Detwiler. Belgium's government has told the USDA that feed mills cannot be ruled out as a source of the disease in Belgian cattle. And feed mills often changed their mixes depending on price and availability, she says. "A lot of time, the rations were developed by least cost calculations, so on any given day, there might be a substitute (such as meat or bone meal) for a protein source," she says. Dr. Gerald Wells, one of the leading British experts on BSE, agrees with the USDA's stance, after examining the slides of brain tissue taken from the two flocks, Detwiler says. "He said he couldn't say what it was. But he couldn't rule out (some form of transmissible encephalopathy). Given the background of the sheep, he would support the action taken by the state and USDA." Larry Faillace says the animals in Vermont were born after a ban on animal meal went into effect in Europe. And he and his wife say that the vacules detected by lab tests in the brains of the culled sheep are not evidence the animals have scrapie or BSE. Vacules in brain tissue can be caused by other illness or the way the slides for the microscope are prepared, they say. The alcohol used on the sample can dissolve lipids (fat molecules) in the tissue, giving the appearance that the tissue has small holes. They also say that researchers did not detect several other signs of transmissible brain disease, including the key protein associated with BSE. Dr. Bernard Carton, a Belgian veterinarian who works with the Faillaces, also says the lab work does not show their sheep have a brain disease. "I have followed all the details of this case. I do not understand why your government is acting like it is," he says. "To me, it has nothing to do with science, it just has to do with politics." The United States which has already faced a European ban on its beef over hormones in the meat wants desperately to keep its BSE-free status, Carton notes. But if the U.S. government destroys the Vermont sheep, it could have an impact on international trade, since dairy products from the same sheep breed are imported from Europe. If the sheep are deemed unsafe, what would happen to those cheese imports if the public believed the animals were at risk to get BSE, he asks. "I wonder what will happen with my (Agriculture) ministry if they kill these animals," Carton says. "Up until now, it's been very quiet, but what happens with cheese from Europe? This could be the beginning of a big war." While the USDA has moved aggressively to control BSE in sheep, government officials have allowed several Vermont farmers to import elk from western states where there is a similar brain disease infecting wild herds. The Faillaces feel there is a double standard at work. Elk are not tested, nor does the USDA or the state ban their import from infected states. "I can understand wanting to take a conservative approach. But if (they) were doing their utmost, testing elk, testing (other) sheep, then I could understand this. But to select us, to say these sheep are under more suspicion than any in the world, seems ridiculous," says Linda. Detwiler refers questions on the elk issue to the state Agriculture Department. Agriculture Commissioner Leon Graves says he is aware that elk in other parts of the country have the brain disease, but that no action has been taken in Vermont. "It's on the radar screen. We haven't done anything about that yet," he says. Graves says he supports the USDA's position. "We've never had BSE in this country and we can't afford to take the risk." The Faillaces believe some of the pressure to destroy their sheep comes from the beef industry, which does not want the United States to lose its BSE-free status. Detwiler, the USDA vet, says the issue goes beyond the beef industry. Many pharmaceutical products are made from cattle and other animal products. That industry could be jeopardized as well from a BSE outbreak. "It's the whole country, definitely not just the beef industry solely, that is interested in that (BSE-free) status," she says. "The overriding issue is human health." By eliminating the Vermont flocks, the USDA "can pre-empt having to undertake any kind of big national (eradication) effort," Detwiler says. The USDA has offered to pay market price for the Faillaces' animals. The couple has heard from state officials that the government could offer around $5,000 for ewes. But that figure would not begin to cover the lost business or the potential sales of breed stock. The Faillaces say they'd sell for $11.3 million. But they don't want to get rid of their animals. "We'd like the science to come out and the truth to come out. ... There's nothing wrong with our sheep," Larry says. "Let's figure out a way of solving this without killing them all." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 21:22:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08086 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25824 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:02:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f70.hotmail.com [216.32.181.70]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA25787 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 75266 invoked by uid 0); 31 Oct 1999 01:00:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19991031010025.75265.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.84.227.215 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:00:24 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.84.227.215] From: "Lester Loam" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Safety of chlorpyrifos Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:00:24 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 Did someone mention that chlorpyrifos (Dursban) was relatively safe? That's not what EPA is saying. lester DOW CHEMICAL PRODUCT MAY HURT HUMAN HEALTH - EPA Oct. 28/99 Reuters By Julie Vorman WASHINGTON - U.S. environmental officials were cited as saying one of the U.S. 's most popular pesticides may be unsafe for Americans who use it in their gardens, fields and homes. Blurred vision, muscle weakness, headaches and problems with memory, depression and irritability have been linked to large amounts of exposure to Dow Chemical's Dursban, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said in a preliminary scientific assessment posted on its web site late Wednesday. The EPA analysis found exposure to Dursban on the skin, in food, or by inhaling it could be harmful to human health. The EPA was quoted as saying it had a "particular concern" with Dursban poisoning cases reported to federal officials. About one-fourth of 325 illnesses reported from 1993 through 1996 were serious enough to require hospitalization. "Data from the two human studies suggest that humans are as sensitive and possibly even more sensitive than animals," the EPA said in the detailed report. One of the studies was conducted with inmate volunteers at a prison. Dursban is used to kill insects that attack everything from home-grown tomatoes to corn fields. It is also a powerful weapon against termites and cockroaches, and is frequently used in homes, schools, hospitals, and in pet collars. More than 20 million pounds of Dursban are used annually in the United States, according to the EPA. The report laid out potential health risks, but did not indicate whether the agency planned to tighten use of Dursban, require new labels alerting consumers to the risk, or phase it out. The agency will not make any final decision until summer. "This preliminary risk assessment indicates that risks from the use of chlorpyrifos in residential settings, as well as its risks to applicators, are of concern," the EPA was quoted as saying in a brief statement released to the press. Dow Chemical, in a letter to the EPA that was included in the report, said EPA's analysis was misleading and based on "fundamental errors" of science. "Three decades of use have shown that unless seriously misused, chlorpyrifos products have wide margins of safety that protect users and consumers, including infants and children," the letter also read. Dursban is one of Dow's biggest pesticide products. EPA's scientific analysis of Dursban is part of a mammoth project to check for harmful residue in food, drinking water and households from some 9,000 U.S. pesticides. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Oct 30 21:54:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08281 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA11003 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:32:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10967 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sals (mp115.nc.rain.org [198.68.145.115]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E82EB61759; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00e801bf233f$66a71140$739144c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , "Beth von Gunten" References: Subject: Re: Swiss farmers seek compensation for GE contamination of maize seed Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:29:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 probably caused by stray pollen during the growing season," says > Ulrich Schmidt, managing director of Pioneer in Buxtehude, Germany, can Pioneer really have it both ways saying not to worry about stray pollen and yet use that stray pollen excuse for the reason they sold contaminated seed? so does this mean any seed from Pioneer may be GE contaminated and those that don't want GE corn can not buy Pioneer because even they with all their talk about no cross pollnation are so full of it, that they can not keep their own seed non GE. It is too bad that a big company like Pioneer sells GE contaminated maize seed to folks that say please don't sell us any GE contamination maize. how long before the whole earth is contaminated? is the barn door open who opened it? ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth von Gunten To: ; Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 4:42 PM Subject: Swiss farmers seek compensation for GE contamination of maize seed > [In response to Sal's query from a couple days ago:] > > Swiss soiled seed prompts tolerance question > by Ingeborg Furst > Nature Biotechnology, Volume 17 / July 1999 Page 629 > > On July 1, the Swiss government's tolerance standard for genetic purity > of food comes into effect. Switzerland is the first country in Europe to > set a limit for genetic contamination, but current controversy over > genetically contaminated corn seeds highlights the urgent EU-wide need > for such a standard for crops. > > In May, it was discovered by the Swiss Department of Agriculture > (Budesamt fur Landwirtschaft; Bern) and the district president of > Baden-Wurtlemberg (Tubingen, Germany) that Pioneer Hi-Bred's (Des > Moines, IA) nongenetically modified corn seed varieties, Ulla and > Benicia, actually contained novel genes from a variety of corn > genetically modified to be resistant to the corn borer, Bacillus > thuringiensis. > > Contamination of the seeds, which were harvested in the United States, > was "probably caused by stray pollen during the growing season," says > Ulrich Schmidt, managing director of Pioneer in Buxtehude, Germany, > which represents the grain manufacturer in Switzerland. It is likely > that incorporation of pollen from GM varieties into Ulla and Benicia > occurred this way because "Pioneer does not offer a commercial GM > variety of Ulla or Benicia." > > Before the contamination was discovered, Pioneer had sold enough Ulla > and Benicia seeds to sow 400 hectares (roughly 0.5% of total corn > cultivation in Switzerland), about 200 hectares of which had already > been planted. > > Estimates of the amount of genetic contamination of non-GM DNA by GM DNA > vary between 0.1 and 0.5%-- respectively below the limit set in both > countries for contamination resulting from physical mixing of varieties. > Under German and Swiss seed market laws, this "technical" contamination > with seed from weed and other varieties can be as high as 3% and 5%, > respectively. > > But because there are no tolerance standards set for genetic purity, the > contaminated Pioneer seeds are not approved for release into the > environment, and planting therefore infringes the Swiss environment > conservation law (Umweltschutzgesetz), as well as violating the German > gene technology law (Gentechnikgesetz). As a result, the Swiss > Department of Agriculture (Bundesamt fur Landwirtschaft, Bern) has > prohibited the import and trade of contaminated Ulla and Benicia and has > ordered the destruction of any already sown. > > However, Pioneer and the entire grain industry are not able to guarantee > the genetic purity of their conventional non-GM varieties, says Schmidt. > "Genetic inserts are in the nature of things," agrees Rainer Linneweber, > spokesperson for Novartis Seed (Bad Salzuflen, Germany). "Despite our > high-level quality management and our ISO certification, even a 100% > [technical] purity for conventional seed is utopian," he adds. But > although the Swiss government has now set a 1% tolerance standard for > genetic contamination of food, such a standard for crops remains absent. > > In the meantime, both Switzerland and Germany have analyzed the > contaminated seed: The Swiss Department of Agriculture could detect by > PCR the presence but not the amount of DNA sequences from GM corn > varieties. But analysis ordered by the Baden-Wurttemberg district has > called two specific GM varieties into question &endash; one from Pioneer > and one from another unnamed grain manufacturer, according to Grit > Puchan, spokesperson for the Baden-Wurttemberg district. > > "We still need to clarify whether or not these GM-corn seed varieties > have been granted marketing approval in the EU and subsequently in > Germany," says Puchan. If they have, the release of their contaminants > would already be approved under the existing EU 90/220 directive. In > this case, Pioneer must simply label the seeds accordingly to satisfy > German authorities, says Edgar Muschketat, spokesperson for the > Berlin-based Robert-Koch-Institut, which approves the release of GMOs > into the environment. > > But this question is irrelevant, according to Hans-Georg Dederer, jurist > at the Institute for Public Law at the University of Bonn, who says a > loophole in the law means that genetically contaminated seeds need no > special approval under 90/220. "A crop genetically modified by stray > pollen is not a product within the meaning of 90/220, because 'product' > implies a willful preparation," he says. > > Meanwhile, a "witch hunt-like atmosphere" reigns in Switzerland, says > Klaus Ammann, director of the Botanic Garden at the University of Bern > and member of the Commission for Biosafety (Kommission fur biologische > Sicherheit). But although some corn fields have been destroyed by fire > or herbicides, many farmers (mainly in western Switzerland) refuse to > destroy the corn until Pioneer and the Swiss government agree to > compensate them. In addition, the Swiss farmers' association > (Schweizerischer Bauernverband) is deciding whether to file a class > action lawsuit against Pioneer (via the Swiss seed importer), and > Pioneer is considering halting sales via the Swiss seed importer to > farmers in Switzerland. > > As Nature Biotechnology was going to press, the Swiss seed importer Eric > Schweizer Samen AG agreed to pay farmers 700 Swiss Francs per hectare. > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 09:17:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12018 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29948 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29935 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bermuda-asy-17.rutgers.edu (bermuda-asy-17.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.145]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02657; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:44:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: bermuda-asy-17.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.145] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <381C71A4.5DC1@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:43:16 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet , Organic Gardening List Subject: Mulch: Forwarding thanks from Peace Corps-Africa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 Greetings from the gambia. My name is Zachary Maichuk, the PCV Loren has been so generous to help out. I just wanted to thank you personally for all of the information you have sent me. Hopefully, I can pass it on effectively. sincerely, Zachary Maichuk To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 13:33:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14157 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26175 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:03:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26171 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.82] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:01:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:59:52 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <0541.991031@acnet.net> To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: Hybrid to OP Corn? In-reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991030115815.007d2770@pcsia.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19991030115815.007d2770@pcsia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 (somewhat long) Saturday, October 30, 1999, 10:58:15 AM, you wrote: > At 22:28 29-10-99 -0600, you wrote: >>MM> so why not develop our own open pollinated >>MM> types that works best in our own area? >> >>There you go. You also want to develop a communications network, >>data bank and seed exchange program among them. You want to follow >>all the results with data collection and make that readily >>available. The protocols shouldn't be that hard to come up with. >>I'll even bet there are existing governmental (or non-governmental) >>support programs that would fund this. MM> Douglas, there is an organization here in Iowa called the Seed MM> Saver's Exchange located in Decorah. I will have to join this MM> group and see what I can learn. Perfect. MM> I just read the relevant sections in the Seed Saver's of Texas MM> booklet called the Vegetable Seed Saver's Handbook. Here is a MM> quote "Just as tradtitional Mexican farmers have learned to MM> naturally hybridize their corn plants with teosinte to increase MM> vigor, home gardeners can hybridize their own favorite plants to MM> increase the vigor and diversity of their seed stock. By allowing MM> varieties to 'hybridize' or cross-pollinate, new populations with MM> more diverse gene pools can be produced." It goes on to say the MM> you can then regrow and select for desirable traits and even MM> stress the plants to select for say drought resistance. That all sounds good, except that I don't know how many traditional Mexican farmers are around any more. Some of the folks that farm in the rural areas probably still save seed from the varieties that they have improved and that have always worked from them, and most plant more than one variety, in order to hedge their bets in relation to the weather and have sweet corn over a longer period of time (there's not much corn planted specifically / exclusively to sweet corn in the hills) but the big growers that live in the cities and grow larger mechanized fields on the plains probably buy their seed from Pioneer and DeKalb etc. >>MM> What if every farmer devoted, say 2 acres to his own research? >>You MM> would not lose the odd 20-70 dollars an acre from growing a >>MM> regular crop and with a little of your own work, you would have >>MM> the potential to save money in the long run. That's for sure. But I say that there should be an attempt to institute a coordinated effort among farmers. It would be faster and more efficient to spread the research load out among many growers, and tabulate the results. The collaboration and the involvement in the identification and / or development of good, locally adapted varieties would foment both the kind of collective culture and self reliance that the world and everyone in it needs. >>A lot of money, and get better results. And when you make your own >>mistakes (assuming you will, to some degree) you have a better >>chance of learning from that and correcting them. MM> When you think about it, it appears to be a daunting task but that MM> really is because at least in this country we have come to think MM> everything should be right now and not require hard work. I need MM> to adopt the poverb from somewhere that I heard, the longest MM> journey starts with a single step and not worry about the long MM> term. You don't have to wait to start, and every day's effort adds a little more toward getting closer to the end. I think the major difference is that virtually everything done in the US is done through someone else (i.e. a corporation or "professional" that makes a living at it, tries to corner the market and creates a framework that in and of itself contains and furthers many assumptions that serve to create a dependency), rather than in a self reliant way, supported by a culture that supports and provides the basis for that. There are many exceptions, of course. The tools are there and more accessible than in many (if not most) other places (i.e. the libraries, cheap and plentiful internet access, good highways - which are some of the things I like best about the US. Focus groups like sanet also provide an important means of gaining competence in a given field. But these are just means - people have to decide to use them and actually do it). Land is expensive though, in many parts of the U.S.; although credit is more easily available and cheaper than in many countries. >> What does the the Farm Bureau do? (Is that the name of the >>largest farmers organization in the US)? Can existing organizations >>take this up or does it take something new? MM> Not the Farm Bureau. Here is a intro/ending from an article in The MM> Progressive Populist, a populist newpaper published in Iowa. The MM> author of this is from the Nebraska Farmer's Union. MM> "The Farm Bureau, at both state and national levels, vigorously MM> promoted the farm and trade policies ... which are devastating the MM> family farm system of agriculture today. ... (some talk about MM> replacing crop price supports with subidized crop insurance - of MM> which the Farm Bureau controls about 1/3 of market) ... Whay does MM> the Farm Bureau favor policies which work against the interest of MM> farmers? Follow the crop insurance money trail, and the answer MM> emerges ..." I don't know. At the beginning of the decade, before Nafta had been approved, I was invited to an event in Guadalajara that had a number of speakers and the main speaker was an Adjunct Director of (I'm pretty sure) the Farm Bureau. He outlined what the position of the Farm Bureau was in relation to Nafta. Right away I could see what had to be done, and I verified this by talking briefly with this person after the event. (He was very cautious in his responses, as I was with my probing, but my evaluation of things stood up). It is absolutely indispensable to be well informed about the available production options available in a given area, the cost of each and the relevant market conditions. You also need to know the direction that the market is heading and above all, to what kind of person are directing your product. Ideally, it will be someone much like yourself, so that the process will be intuitive to a high degree, leaving just the need to establish contact and maintain constant feedback mechanisms working The bad part is that apparently not enough people have understood the nature of the opportunity nor the limited nature of the threat. Down here particularly, in many cases the traditional way of doing things simply won't cut it anymore. In each and every region, people need to be aware of the areas where they can and can't compete effectively, and how to do it. Costs are just part of the picture, although obviously an important part. MM> Greed and money as usual but "That's America" as Arlo Gutherie MM> says in one of his songs. The various Farmer's Unions might be MM> able to help but they are too small and farmer's are too MM> independent and vote mostly Repbulican, the very party that is MM> screwing them over. It's almost like an abusive personal MM> relationship but the pot is boiling now and for most non-corporate MM> farms, it is too late. The chicken and hogs serfs are being joined MM> by the cattle and grain serfs and so the take over will be MM> complete. It won't be complete until the only source of life is in the hands of these corporate conglomerates, which tend to leave a lot of room for other and better offers (not because the conglomerates want that, but because they are often incapable of even understanding just what it is that people really need. They try to create the impression that they're giving the public what it want's and some even seem to believe their own lies - Hi Dale - when what they are really doing is trying to convince people to buy a proprietary product that is neither needed nor recommendable. [Dale, I suggest forming a joint venture with others here and elsewhere to develop and really give the farmers that share these concerns, products that meet their needs, as they themselves understand them. Consultancy and facilitating the availability of appropriate inputs will probably play a greater role here than occurs with conventional seed companies, and help with marketing could also be offered. Anyone else interested]? The lie is so blatant that the only hope these corporations have requires stifling "truth in labeling" initiatives and bullying entire governments into turning against the will and best interests of their own constituents, through the the intervention of "free" or "world" trade organizations. (There is nothing inherently wrong with free or world trade or with having organizations that promote it. What's wrong is the way that some of these organizations are controlled and being used by vested and highly localized interests to further their own devious ends, that run in conflict with nature, biological evolution, a healthy biosphere, the public good etc. The rest of us have to organize too, but in a loose and independent way, rather than in the dominating, controlling, insidious, militaristic and ludicrously propagandistic way that the new chemical / agrochemical / seed conglomerates are trying to go about it. However, this time they have bitten off more than they can chew and the stage is set for better alternatives on a large scale. It will have to begin small of course, and already has. We're part of it). MM> Sorry to end on such a depressing note but until "democracy and MM> legislation are not bought with monopoly campaign dollars" we are MM> in for a rough ride. MM> Mike Miller It helps to know which battles have to waged. The thing to is go ahead with it all. Rough rides require rougher riders. And it's not that rough to do things right, particularly when you are eating well. That's a tremendous advantage, in and of itself. Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net (The m is for Miller, btw - my middle name, & my mother's maiden name). I am going to go ahead and post this, assuming that's fine with you. Maybe more will decide to get involved, or do it on their own. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 13:47:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14271 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA10805 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:25:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10698 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01443 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id MAA19096; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:23:04 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma018951; Sun, 31 Oct 99 12:22:18 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:22:18 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC9@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: Sanet Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:22:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 Loren, Roberto, and Mark, Loren wrote: > Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is > disregarded as being in the category of things we call > "a problem." Roberto wrote: > I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination > quite incredible. Mark wrote: > Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of > both property rights and human rights. First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive modern quantitative analysis really is. At a sufficiently low level of contamination, this controversy devolves into theoretical hair-splitting. Second, society subjects all of us to all kinds of risks. Ordinary risks we accept without second thought are a lot bigger than pesticide risk (as far as I can tell). Third, we constantly ingest all manner of toxic substances that occur naturally. To a large extent, the function of kidneys and liver is to detoxify and/or eliminate these things. One of the reasons chlorpyrifos is relatively safe is that it is excreted rapidly. In the context of general chemical risk, it may not be that important. Lester forwarded: > Blurred vision, muscle weakness, headaches and problems with > memory, depression and irritability have been linked to large > amounts of exposure to Dow Chemical's Dursban... > The EPA analysis found exposure to Dursban on the skin, in food, > or by inhaling it could be harmful to human health... So...what else is new? Everybody knows this. > The report laid out potential health risks, but did not indicate > whether the agency planned to tighten use of Dursban, require new > labels alerting The press release is just spin, based on some routine EPA report. It may be that some uses like flea collars and in-home application should be banned. Is there a link to the EPA report, or some reliable source of technical information? Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 14:08:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14430 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24690 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:42:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24594 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01685 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id MAA23528; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:40:14 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma023450; Sun, 31 Oct 99 12:39:57 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:39:56 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFCA@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Charles Benbrook'" Subject: RE: Pioneer Policy re GMOs and Non-GMOs Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:39:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 Chuck, > On the first and second issue, it is clear on the Pioneer Iowa > corn hybrid page that some of the non-engineered base genetic > hybrids are not offered in 1999-2000. The industry was taken by surprise by the anti-GMO sentiment. I think that in some cases the expectation was that farmers would not want the non-GMO hybrid, if they could get the GMO version (which we tend to regard as better, in general). So sometimes companies didn't plan to offer the non-GMO variety, at least not in any quantity. We estimate demand 2 or 3 years in advance, to produce sufficent parent seed, so it will not be surprising if the industry is short on some popular non-GMO hybrids. > If there is an overall nationwide shortage of non-GMO varieties > next year, we will also hear about this and there will be consequences > and the seed companies will have to respond. There is probably a lot of non-gmo seed around. It might be hard to specifically get the non-gmo version of your favorite GMO hybrid in some cases though. > non-GMO genetics is also pretty obvious in most cases, since most GMO > hybrid designations are simply tacked onto the non-GMO variety -- for > example, DK471 -- the modifier "IMI" for imidazolinone herbicide > tolerance I don't think that (most ?) IMI corns are transgenic. I believe they were developed by ordinary crossing and selection. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 19:34:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18133 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06215 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06037 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (root@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08396 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA08804 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08800 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:49:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac2.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: sanet Subject: Dick and Sharon Thompson's "problem child" In-Reply-To: <381A0DD8.F951988F@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 Hello to all... Last night, I was browsing an old issue of the Journal of Agronomic Education (~ 1991, so it may have been the newly named incarnation) and read a case study article titled "Dick and Sharon Thompson's problem child". The article was presented in the form of a case study that one would discuss with undergrad agronomy students or crop consultants in training. The case study presented that after ~20 years of organic integrated livestock and row crop production, the Thompsons decided that they had to start banding muriate of potash (KCl) to alleviate K deficiency. Tissue tests of their corn indicated a serious K deficiency but soil tests indicated K levels that were more than adequate. Since adopting organic management practices in 1969, the Thompsons had not applied any salt fertilizers but had ammended all fields with manure from their integrated cattle operation. For a number of years, they composted the manure prior to field application but eventually decided to abandon composting. Despite the fact that their soil test K levels had increased during their 20 years of organic management, something was causing their crops to become increasing K deficient. The article indicated that following the initiation of KCl banding, crops did show a yield response in most fields but continued to have low tissue levels of K. The article suggested that the Thompson's ridge tillage system may have been partly responsible for the unsual K dynamics. Sooo... ~ 7 years have gone by since this article was written... I am wondering whether the Thompsons have resolved or continued to struggle with their "K problem child" and/or what mechanisms were underlying the problem... Can anyone enlighten me ? Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 19:35:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18144 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06888 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:46:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06714 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04780 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([152.172.213.208]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 268; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:18:39 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991031161327.00b7f720@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:13:27 -0600 To: "Wilson, Dale" , Sanet From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos In-Reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC9@vela.phibred.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Hello, Maybe I wasn't clear. If a corporation puts something into my body that is not invited it is a violation of property rights and human rights. It should and will be litigated like tobacco and bullets. Those that have died will not see any benefit. Those that have been maimed may be compensated but not heal. Those conceived but not born may see some reduction over their lifetime and those not yet conceived will still be affected over several generations. It should be quite an interesting process of determining the damages. Sincerely, Mark Ritchie Some people will go to jail and=At 12:22 PM 10/31/99 -0600, Wilson, Dale wrote: >Loren, Roberto, and Mark, > >Loren wrote: >> Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is >> disregarded as being in the category of things we call >> "a problem." > >Roberto wrote: >> I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination >> quite incredible. > >Mark wrote: >> Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of >> both property rights and human rights. > >First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive >modern quantitative analysis really is. At a sufficiently low level of >contamination, this controversy devolves into theoretical hair-splitting. > >Second, society subjects all of us to all kinds of risks. Ordinary risks we >accept without second thought are a lot bigger than pesticide risk (as far >as I can tell). > >Third, we constantly ingest all manner of toxic substances that occur >naturally. To a large extent, the function of kidneys and liver is to >detoxify and/or eliminate these things. One of the reasons chlorpyrifos is >relatively safe is that it is excreted rapidly. In the context of general >chemical risk, it may not be that important. > >Lester forwarded: >> Blurred vision, muscle weakness, headaches and problems with >> memory, depression and irritability have been linked to large >> amounts of exposure to Dow Chemical's Dursban... >> The EPA analysis found exposure to Dursban on the skin, in food, >> or by inhaling it could be harmful to human health... > >So...what else is new? Everybody knows this. > >> The report laid out potential health risks, but did not indicate >> whether the agency planned to tighten use of Dursban, require new >> labels alerting > >The press release is just spin, based on some routine EPA report. It may be >that some uses like flea collars and in-home application should be banned. >Is there a link to the EPA report, or some reliable source of technical >information? > >Dale > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 31 20:24:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18588 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15513 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:09:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sscntex.ssc.msu.edu (ssc.msu.edu [35.8.70.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15495 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by SSCNTEX with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:08:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Harris, Craig" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:08:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of problems with certification . . . . first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that usda develop a national program of standards setting and certification . . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and signed by the president, not with the usda-ams implementation of the legislation second, when the first draft of the proposed implementation was released for review last year, one of the major criticisms was that the cost of certification would be unduly burdensome for small organic farmers . . . it seems to me that a cost-share arrangement addresses that criticism . . . if one is going to be critical of the cost-sharing proposals, i think one has to suggest ways in which they can be revised (or alternatives implemented) which at the same time mitigate the undue cost burden cheers, craig craig k harris department of sociology michigan state university 429b berkey hall east lansing michigan 48824-1111 tel: 517-355-5048 fax: 517-432-2856 > ---------- > From: Bluestem Associates[SMTP:bluestem@webserf.net] > Reply To: Bluestem Associates > Sent: Saturday 30 October 1999 10:34 AM > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Proposed organic cost share program > > On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT, Erorganic@aol.com wrote: > > >Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of > USDA > >supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears to > me > >members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis > of > >its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and > >handlers. > > >My concerns are gargantuan. > > Eric and I frequently disagree. Not this time. > > He who pays the piper, calls the tune. It would be entirely consistent > with past bureaucratic motives if the purpose of this was simply to > make certified farmers more dependent on bureaucrats, thereby > securinging the bureaucrats' jobs in this little developing empire at > the National Organic Program. > > >The Agricultural Marketing Service appears to > >have proposed the organic certification cost share program. > > The cynical side of me sees this as a means of gaining more control > over FVO and OCIA particularly, as these are both "high standards" > programs, neither of which (to my knowledge) has ever taken a nickel of > government money. We can't have such important programs so immune to > our control, now, can we ...? > > In a private message to Anita Graf answering her question to me about > how it is that Canada --- with its rather tight controls on election > expenditures, PACs and such --- can still have so much of the same > problems of favoritism, croneyism, special deals and so on, I said, > > ++Same shenanigans, same waste, same corruption as in the US. Most of > the > ++dirty work is done within the bureaucracy, as it is in the US. > > Bureaucrats are generally invisible, unavailable, and unaccountable. > They can do a lot of good, and many are unsung heroes. More often they > do an amazing amount of anonymous harm. > > >The money ultimately ends up going > >first to certified farmers [snip] and then is passed > >back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by > them. > > In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use > tax > >money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic > Program. > > In a time of tight budgets, bureaucrats are as nervous as a long-tailed > cat in a room full of rocking chairs... the most effective way to > raise taxes is through all sorts of hidden fees, especially if they > come direct to your little domain. > > > >In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to > >certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically > produced" > >for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has > >increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these > farmers > >have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of > >organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a > >proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of > farmer > >applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic > >farming. > > Very sadly, Eric, you understate the case. I see these guys all the > time as an inspector. Just one example, from your state of Iowa... > > Conventional farmer with many hundreds of acres in heavy duty corn > (anhydrous, etc). He had 130 acres (55 ha) that had been in the federal > Conservation Reserve Program (at a tidy annual rent) for ten years. The > whole thing was planted to food soybeans for 1999, which he wanted > certified. The entire 130 acres was going to go *back* into CRP in > 2000. In the course walking the field it became obvious to me that he > had used herbicide(s) --- probably Pinnacle and Pursuit --- on the > whole field. He didn't get certified, but I'll bet there are a lot more > out there like him, and some of them *do* get certified. > > The real weak link in the whole system right now is INSPECTION. Many > inspectors do not have practical production experience or knowledge. > Relatively few have any understanding of *conventional* production --- > its methods, its materials, and (above all) its *attitudes.* Increasing > the number of applicants by encouraging them with subsidies is > potentially disastrous for the little credibility remaining in the > industry. > > The organic industry has largely done this to itself, with its slavish > and anal-retentive preoccupation with *materials* rather than farm > systems. It simply doesn't take as much understanding of agriculture to > haggle over materials as it does to codify the irreducible minimum of a > healthy system management. > > Because it's easier for programs (and bureaucrats) to haggle over > materials, we have ironically undermined the entire inspection process. > Inspecting for materials use is *NOT* easy. In fact, it is probably the > most difficult aspect of the entire system to monitor. There are farms > I *know* got sprayed within hours of when I headed down the lane for my > next inspection. > > What really matters is how the whole system is put together and > managed. That is difficult to codify, but once codified is relatively > easy to inspect, even for inspectors of modest ability. There is > absolutely no way, for example, that I could determine whether or not > an applicant as used 25 kg/ha of Chilean nitrate, or 125 kg/ha, other > than to trust his answer. That standard, therefore, is un-inspectable, > un-verifiable, and thereby useless. > > What is *easy* to inspect is whether or not there is at least 25% > legume sod in the rotation, and whether or not the applicant has a > *written* management protocol for standard materials and procedures > used in that particular operation. Less than 2% of the farms I > inspected in 1999 had a written protocol for mineral fertility > management, even though it is clearly required in the standards. If you > think that doesn't matter, go back to the archives and review my > comments about soil minerals and crop quality from about 3 weeks ago. > > The key questions are: > > a) Is this system designed and managed so as maximise system health > and crop quality; > > b) Is it designed and managed to minimise the need for chemical > inputs; > > c) Is this management protocol documented and followed, and > > d) Is there a chain of custody guaranteeing that the harvest has not > been contaminated or co-mingled. > > > Having de-emphasised these most important managerial elements (which > are the *easiest* to inspect), and having over-emphasised materials > (which are very difficult to inspect), the organic business has left > itself extremely vulnerable. Federal cost sharing and the resultant > influx of desperate conventional growers may well be all that is needed > to tip an already-unstable system into the abyss. > > >There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants > for > >organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic > >product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff > of > >the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic > markets > >for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under > OFPA. > >Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal > >government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, > >continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions > that > >are simply un-natural, not "organic." > > This is an additional cause for concern, but if the inspectability > problem isn't resolved, it may not matter. There are inspectors (and > certification committee members) out here with enough concrete examples > to seriously damage the demand side of "organic" equation in the course > of a single interview on '60-minutes.' > > Bart > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Oct 31 23:14:32 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19787 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA24804 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:51:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24709 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id LAA31422; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:45:36 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA03312; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:28:26 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911010428.MAA03312@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 30 Oct 99 13:22:57 Subject: Re: Do-it-yourself corn breeding To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 >Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and organized >enough to come up with superior varieties, what is wrong with my >protecting them from people who would steal them? Don't I have a >right to earn a living? Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you mean, steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, didn't you? Once you release your breeding results, they're back to the public pool, and the public is entitled to use them. That's what all farmers have been doing. Earning a living has nothing to do with stealing from the public pool. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 10:06:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25060 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01734 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:45:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01727 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([128.146.210.212]) by mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08008 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:43:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381DB4E6.A7A9CF99@uoguelph.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:42:31 -0600 From: "E. Ann Clark" Organization: University of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: [Fwd: no-till] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------162DDF1FA7157919879D8E54" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------162DDF1FA7157919879D8E54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: FYI. Ann Maroc wrote: > Good article in April 1999 Canadian Cattlemen on Manitoba farmer who > switched from 2,700 ac of zero-till wheat and durum, to 560 ac of pasture, > grazing 1,100 stockers. > > Don Maroc > Vancouver Island, Canada --------------162DDF1FA7157919879D8E54 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mailhub.cs.uoguelph.ca (inbound.mail.uoguelph.ca [131.104.96.75]) by pobox.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16699 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 01:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by mailhub.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21315 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 01:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.175.106.44] [199.175.106.50] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11hRK1-0006f2C for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:48:27 +0000 To: eaclark@uoguelph.ca From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: no-till Good article in April 1999 Canadian Cattlemen on Manitoba farmer who switched from 2,700 ac of zero-till wheat and durum, to 560 ac of pasture, grazing 1,100 stockers. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada --------------162DDF1FA7157919879D8E54-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 10:44:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25885 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18653 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:23:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18585 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-136.rain.org [198.68.144.136]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8E4861742; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Harris, Craig" , , "'Bluestem Associates'" References: Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 ----- Original Message ----- From: Harris, Craig To: ; 'Bluestem Associates' Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:08 PM Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program > it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of > problems with certification . . . . > > first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that USDA develop > a national program of standards setting and certification . . . if one has > disagreements with those two objectives, then one's disagreements are with > the legislation as passed by congress and signed by the president, not with > the USDA-ams implementation of the legislation calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy now I pay a certifier, a inspector ,the state of Ca. etc how many pencil pushing bureaucrats do I have to pay off just for telling the truth and they all require paper work and can all charge me what they want. whats with that. no one can tell you what you will have to pay to be organic because every one charges what they want and u have to pay. it's a rip off there are too many folks NOW with their hands in our pockets now. I can't afford to give all these folks money now. the organic tax is a rip off. > second, when the first draft of the proposed implementation was released for > review last year, one of the major criticisms was that the cost of > certification would be unduly burdensome for small organic farmers . . . it > seems to me that a cost-share arrangement addresses that criticism . . . if > one is going to be critical of the cost-sharing proposals, i think one has > to suggest ways in which they can be revised (or alternatives implemented) > which at the same time mitigate the undue cost burden easy take the burden off the backs of the growers. they are paying to much now. why do I have to pay a certifier and the state of Ca. both for the same thing and why should I pay the USDA for the same thing I am paying everyone else for. why do I have to give paper work to the state and be inspected by the state and the certifier and pay them both for the same dam thing. its a big rip off NOW and the USDA are talking about adding to the burden not lifting it. I say let those that are lying pay and those that are telling the truth not pay this whole thing is a rip off. Mafia protection money . you get a letter from the state of Ca. ok your organic now you have to pay us every year and kiss up to us and the certifier sends a letter ok your organic now You have to pay us every year year after year and the inspector sends us a bill yes you are organic now you have to pay me every year year after year for the rest of your life . I know I am organic what did i get from all this nothing but a stinking little piece of paper more work. more bosses more slavemasters now the USDA want to get into the act. ok your organic now every year year after year after year you have to pay us. bull shit how many pencil pushing bottom feeders do u have to pay off to tell the truth organic Gestapo extortion force labor slavery the Mafia won they are now the Government and they got the organic grower by the cohoniess and all these folks can charge what every they want and we have to pay. I can go on and on . those that feel it know it. I say organic growers should not have to pay one cent more than any other grower to grow and sell their crops and if they are organic they should be able to tell anyone the truth. if the USDA wants to set a standard let them if the USDA wants to regulate certifiers let them but don't tax the organic grower for doing the good that he knows. Its too much now not one more cent I need my money go rob someone else. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 12:16:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27899 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02173 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:48:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02152 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id QAA01304; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:13:41 GMT Message-ID: <381DBC07.81379A41@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:12:55 -0600 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: No-till Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 Great post, London! The tillage definitions you were asking about are (briefly) 1. No-till - minimizing seed bed preparation to just the cutting of a slit in the existing ground cover (sod, cover crop, last year's unincorporated crop residue), dropping the seed and pressing the slit closed with press wheels. This method can be used with or without chemicals, depending on other factors. 2. Minimum (reduced) tillage - shredding crop residues after harvest to provide ground cover during winter, followed by just enough tillage in the spring to allow seed drills proper access. Generally the term minimum tillage is used where at least 30% of the field surface is covered by last year's crop residue after planting of the new crop has been completed. There are several different methods of reduced tillage and specialized equipment for some of those methods. 3. Ridge tillage - using cultivating tools to create planting ridges a few inches higher than the between row area. Primarily used where soils have a hard time drying out in the spring in time to plant. The middles are often left with last year's crop residue as an additional protection against erosion. 4. Conventional tillage - plow, disk, spray, plant. Liked your description of the Soil Saver tillage tool. Sounds pretty much like the para plow. Strip cropping is and can be an effective erosion fighter, but is not always suitable to the terrain. For instance, it is used extensively in Wisconsin, but rarely anymore in Tennessee. Different terrain, different soils, different agriculture. Define marginal land. There is such a thing, but in between really marginal land and really good crop land there is a lot of land that could be defined either way, depending on your perspective. Lespedeza (sericea?) has been used successfully as a soil saver/builder. However, there are many other plant types available to farmers now that are easier to manage and provide more usable production. I do not recommend use of sericea anymore, like I did 20+ years ago. Gotta go. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 12:36:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28290 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA09667 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:00:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09641 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id QAA01310; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:24:09 GMT Message-ID: <381DBEA7.737C8F58@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:24:08 -0600 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: FYI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 North Dakota Chapter of SWCS Forum on Carbon Sequestration Bismarck, North Dakota December 8-9 Of interest to farmers, ranchers, industry, conservationists, environmentalists, and others interested in agriculture and its potential role in reducing CO2 and global warming. Open to the public. Registration fee: $45. Continuing education credits for Certified Crop Advisors available. Contact Jon Stika on (701) 225-5113 or at Information is also available on To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 13:01:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28681 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA25239 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:33:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mesa.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (mesa.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25169 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from coop.ext.colostate.edu (coop.EXT.ColoState.EDU [129.82.139.50]) by mesa.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA39162; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:31:20 -0700 Received: from nrcs3.cohugo.fsc.usda.gov (nrcs3.cohugo.fsc.usda.gov [199.153.37.252]) by coop.ext.colostate.edu (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14636; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:25:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199911011725.KAA14636@coop.ext.colostate.edu> From: "Will Arnold" To: "'Anita Graf (Staff)'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Walker Bennett Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:36:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: political change Reply-to: warnold@coop.ext.colostate.edu In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 A few years ago I heard someone on NPR relate how they thought if we moved the decision makers out of Washington D.C. and held legislative sessions every two years in different states we would remove much of the corruption we now face. I really liked the idea. The scerio would go something like this. For the House we elect representatives to serve four year terms, (Senate stays 6) butboth houses only meet every two years. Each state makes available on a rotational basis their state houses for a 12 week session. All business not accomplished would table over until next session. The President has the authority to call special sessions in times of dire need that would meet in D. C.. Committee work ( where I think the most damage is done anyway would begin over e-mail) and then the last four weeks of the normal yearly session (off year) would be devoted to this work in various sites around the U.S.. I don't know what we would do with all those buildings but maybe we could quit building new ones for quite some time and rent out the others for other purposes. Of course this is pie in the sky but I liked the concept. Will Will Arnold Regional Extension Specialist/RC&D Community Development P.O. Box 157 Hugo CO 80821 (719)743-2370 ext 112 warnold@coop.ext.colostate.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 13:02:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28689 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23685 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23668 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28137; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29701; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:27:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:27:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Sal cc: "Harris, Craig" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program In-Reply-To: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Sal wrote: > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800 > From: Sal > To: "Harris, Craig" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, 'Bluestem Associates' > Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Harris, Craig > To: ; 'Bluestem Associates' > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:08 PM > Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program > > > > it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of > > problems with certification . . . . > > > > first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that USDA > develop > > a national program of standards setting and certification . . . if one has > > disagreements with those two objectives, then one's disagreements are with > > the legislation as passed by congress and signed by the president, not > with > > the USDA-ams implementation of the legislation > > calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks > if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the > inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy > now I pay a certifier, a inspector ,the state of Ca. etc how many pencil > pushing bureaucrats do I have to pay off just for telling the truth and > they all require paper work and can all charge me what they want. whats > with that. no one can tell you what you will have to pay to be organic > because every one charges what they want and u have to pay. it's a rip off > there are too many folks NOW with their hands in our pockets now. > I can't afford to give all these folks money now. > the organic tax is a rip off. Right on, Sal! Keep shouting it out loud and clear. There _are_ folks listening! another organic small grower Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 13:07:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28798 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01382 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:40:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01375 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id RAA01512; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:06:13 GMT Message-ID: <381DC884.ACA363D0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:06:12 -0600 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Mark: You said "Maybe I wasn't clear. If a corporation puts something into my body that is not invited it is a violation of property rights and human rights. It should and will be litigated like tobacco and bullets. " Go ahead, and while you are at it sue all industries that have even the slightest emissions into the air or water, regardless of how well they conform to existing laws. Go after state and federal road programs too, especially in the areas where seams of Chattanooga shale have been exposed (natural radiation source). Lets back the EPA when they find the most miniscule traces of carcinogens (remember saccarin), regardless of whether they really pose an identifiable seriouse health risk. Farmers should be sued en mass since they contribute soil erosion pollution to the water and air no matter how conscientious they are. Your argument reminds me of the wildly disproportional response to the unfounded Alar scare. A lot of good people were hurt by the media's irresponsible "reporting" of a danger that never was. I'm sorry, but while I agree that we should find those things that truely pose a health threat and either stop or mitigate the problem, I have little patience with those that believe in a fairy tale environment that is all pure and good, or that finds enviromental boogymen hiding under the bed every night. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 13:09:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28829 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29864 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29757 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28264; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29793; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Sal cc: "Harris, Craig" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program In-Reply-To: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Sal wrote: > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800 > From: Sal > Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program > > calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off A magnificent message from Sal! It could not have been said better. I hope all sanet subscribers read every word of it. It will have been worth it. He speaks the truth! The Devil take the petty system some would impose on the small organic grower. It goes against all reason and morality. Convinced, Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 14:13:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00531 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23881 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:25:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23856 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.141] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:22:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:21:10 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4514.991101@acnet.net> To: "Sal" CC: "Harris, Craig" , , "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: Re[2]: Proposed organic cost share program In-reply-To: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> References: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Hello Sal & all Sal was very eloquent and is totally right! OFPA is fundamentally wrong in mandating obligatory USDA Organic Certification. Once a decent Organic Rule has been developed and supported by the organic community, those that need it will adhere to it and participate; but USDA Organic Certification is going to have to be either non compulsory or unconstitutional. Let it rest on it's own merit and let the buyer insist on which certification program he, she or it requires, if any. Craig too is correct when he says: > first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that usda > develop a national program of standards setting and certification . > . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's > disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and > signed by the president, not with the usda-ams implementation of the > legislation Having been passed by congress and signed by the president does not make the obligatory aspect of USDA Organic Certification constitutional (much less necessary or fair), and Sal is right again when claiming that the $5000 limit for exemption is a "rip off". In fact, it's ridiculous and offensive. OFPA as written will either be amended or become bogged down in court. If implemented as it now reads, there will be serious liabilities generated that will have attended to at a high cost, in the end. Douglas Hinds Monday, November 01, 1999, 9:21:21 AM, you wrote: S> ----- Original Message ----- S> From: Harris, Craig S> To: ; 'Bluestem Associates' S> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:08 PM S> Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program >> it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of >> problems with certification . . . . >> >> first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that USDA S> develop a national program of standards setting and certification . S> . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's S> disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and S> signed by the president, not with the USDA-ams implementation of S> the legislation S> calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off S> taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off S> set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks S> if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the S> inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy S> now I pay a certifier, a inspector ,the state of Ca. etc how many pencil S> pushing bureaucrats do I have to pay off just for telling the truth and S> they all require paper work and can all charge me what they want. whats S> with that. no one can tell you what you will have to pay to be organic S> because every one charges what they want and u have to pay. it's a rip off S> there are too many folks NOW with their hands in our pockets now. S> I can't afford to give all these folks money now. S> the organic tax is a rip off. >> second, when the first draft of the proposed implementation was released S> for review last year, one of the major criticisms was that the cost of >> certification would be unduly burdensome for small organic farmers >> . . . S> it seems to me that a cost-share arrangement addresses that S> criticism . . . if one is going to be critical of the cost-sharing S> proposals, i think one has to suggest ways in which they can be S> revised (or alternatives implemented) which at the same time S> mitigate the undue cost burden S> easy take the burden off the backs of the growers. they are paying to much S> now. why do I have to pay a certifier and the state of Ca. both for the same S> thing and why should I pay the USDA for the same thing I am paying everyone S> else for. why do I have to give paper work to the state and be inspected by S> the state and the certifier and pay them both for the same dam thing. its a S> big rip off NOW and the USDA are talking about adding to the burden not S> lifting it. I say let those that are lying pay and those that are telling S> the truth not pay S> this whole thing is a rip off. Mafia protection money . you get a letter S> from the state of Ca. ok your organic now you have to pay us every year and S> kiss up to us and the certifier sends a letter ok your organic now You have S> to pay us every year year after year and the inspector sends us a bill yes S> you are organic now you have to pay me every year year after year for the S> rest of your life . I know I am organic what did i get from all this S> nothing but a stinking little piece of paper more work. more bosses more S> slavemasters now the USDA want to get into the act. ok your organic now S> every year year after year after year you have to pay us. bull shit how S> many pencil pushing bottom feeders do u have to pay off to tell the truth S> organic Gestapo S> extortion S> force labor S> slavery S> the Mafia won they are now the Government and they got the organic grower by S> the cohoniess and all these folks can charge what every they want and we S> have to pay. S> I can go on and on . those that feel it know it. S> I say organic growers should not have to pay one cent more than any other S> grower to grow and sell their crops and if they are organic they should be S> able to tell anyone the truth. if the USDA wants to set a standard let them S> if the USDA wants to regulate certifiers let them but don't tax the organic S> grower for doing the good that he knows. S> Its too much now S> not one more cent S> I need my money go rob someone else. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 14:14:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00562 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27936 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:36:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.32]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27889 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([128.146.210.212]) by mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29660 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:34:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381DEB03.6166DEE4@uoguelph.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:33:23 -0600 From: "E. Ann Clark" Organization: University of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos References: <381DC884.ACA363D0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 Mike, Mark and others: mike richardson wrote: > Mark: You said "Maybe I wasn't clear. If a corporation puts something into > my body that > is not invited it is a violation of property rights and human rights. It > should and will be litigated like tobacco and bullets. " > Then Mike said: > Go ahead, and while you are at it sue all industries that have even the > slightest emissions into the air or water, regardless of how well they > conform to existing laws. snip > Your argument reminds me of the wildly disproportional response to the > unfounded Alar scare. A lot of good people were hurt by the media's > irresponsible "reporting" of a danger that never was. Perhaps this is the point to recall that evocatively perceptive statement of William McDonough, Dean of Architecture at Virginia - "Regulations are an indication of design failure". He said that regulations were needed "so we didn't kill each other too quickly". And just think about how many regulations - and how much money is being wasted in managing, refining, and monitoring regulations - complicate our lives today.. Before you are tempted to pooh-pooh this as wishful utopian thinking, understand that McDonough also heads a design firm with clients who have a combined annual income of $400 billion - who pay him to bring his brilliance into action in their particular firm, whether it is a textile plant in Switzerland or Nike or Walmart in the US. He walks the walk. Look for his upcoming book - Cradle to Cradle. At any rate, all this talk about chlorpyrifos and Alar (which was NOT a hoax by the way; look at John Wargo's densely referenced text Our Children's Toxic Legacy. Yale Univ Press (1996) - he is a wild-eyed radical masquerading as a Yale university professor) is really rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I am reminded of Steingraber's powerful text Living Downstream, which drew its title from a hypothetical village, whose inhabitants noted an alarming increase in the number of drowning people floating by their village. They developed very elaborate and effective means of grabbing and resuscitating the victims, but were so busy doing so that they had no time to go upstream and see who was pushing them in. That's what all this verbage about chlorpyrifos et al. is about. Why should we (collectively, as a people) be allowing our creative energies to be sapped by this pinhead dancing (is 0.0001 picograms too much? how much more risk is 0.001 picograms?) when it would be so much more fruitful and life-enhancing to design and operate production systems that didn't create the niches allowing pests to proliferate to pestiferous proportions in the first place? It is the flawed system design (corn-soy-corn-soy-corn-soy) or 3000 cow dairies or megahog factories that has encouraged the slide into dependence on biocides. We know this. This is not rocket science. Yet we keep getting diverted into dead-end arguments and "it is toxic" or "it isn't toxic" or "risk is less than being struck by lightening" or whatever - instead of pulling back and asking the more fundamental questions - how to avoid the problems in the first place instead of using chemicals or ecologically deranged production practices to *fix* them after we've created them. We are talking about fixing self-created problems here. But is there another way? Can this be done? Of course it can - it is being implemented every day by farmers who farm using ecological principles - including but not limited to organic farmers - who probably never took a course in ecology. So, if it is so great, why isn't everyone doing this? Well the short answer is because systems that internalize costs of production (e.g. full cost accounting) simply have to *pay* more costs more than systems which externalize (don't pay) some of the true costs of production (in contaminated ground- and surface water, antibiotic resistant cattle, salmonella-contaminated chicken etc.). This puts the former at an economic disadvantage - until society realizes just how much damage is actually being done to them and calls us to task - which they are already doing. Look for more of this, in spades, in the near future.. Ecologically sound systems are also less dependent on input suppliers, which makes them a threat to those with a vested interest in ecologically unsound, inputs-based production systems. So, you won't see ecologically sound farmers between the covers of Fantazmagorical Farmer, in between the Pioneer and John Deere ads, and you will very likely find them the object of rejection and ridicule from their neighbors in the local coffee house. Negative peer pressure is a powerful disincentive to stepping over the traces and doing something differently. You don't imagine that Avery and the like are gearing up their anti-organic distribes just lately as a lark, do you? Count on more of this blather in the near future. Farmers who attempt to use ecologically sound design principles often don't have an easy time of getting guidance, assistance, or solutions to production problems that may arise during the season (as has been amply discussed on SANET in recent weeks). This means that - unlike their conventional neighbors, who simply call up the fertilizer salesman, seedsman, or extension/university expert - ecological practicioners have to absorb the cost and risk of doing their own research on their own farms, to address their own issues. They don't have a multi-million dollar societal investment in govn't and academic research waiting to service their needs. This puts them at a further financial and managerial disadvantage. But all of this is changing, in part because of the skyrocketing demand for organic produce (now, why is that, do you suppose?). Look for more of this, particularly if the US and Canada remain obstinately adamant that GE foods are substantially equivalent to real food and require neither testing nor labeling. So, next time you find yourself getting waylayed into one of the "he said/she said" whine-olas about biocides, let the wisdom of McDonough or Steingraber shine into your mind and keep you focused on the real issues. Ann To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 14:58:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01658 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:58:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19220 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:19:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19188 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:22:16 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.187] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A76DBA8D0086; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:18:05 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 19:16:24 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: 'Small' farms & certification Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800, Sal wrote: >calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off I believe that the US Small business Administration sets the threshhold for 'micro' businesses at $250,000 annual sales and below. That covers 94% of all American farms. I don't know where the upper threshold is, but it's probably more than my businesses are ever likely to gross. Half of US farmers have less than $10,000 in annual sales. *However* when I was living in Wisconsin I was tangentially involved in a case in which an organic grower was routinely using calcium nitrate and some other prohibited materials. If he was bigger than $5,000, it wasn't by a lot. Cheaters come in all sizes, including small, which is why they, too, need to be certified. The organic premium is supposed (in part) to cover the *additional* costs of producing organically, is it not. Additional costs like paperwork and certification. I'm not sure who is "ripping off" whom when organic growers want the full premium for their production, but seem pathologically unwilling to make the efforts in soil care and recordkeeping (including certification) to justify that premium. I have been on 2 acre organic vegetable farms with 125-150 ton/acre annual erosion rates. They were pocketing their premium and giving absolutely nothing back to the land. Their sales were under $5,000 but they should no more have the right to call themselves organic than if they had been using Sevin to control squash bugs. It us the certification process --- with all its flaws --- that should be making that determination. Self-definition as organic, regardless of size, is simply wrong. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 15:03:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01751 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20974 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:24:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20963 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:24:34 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from www.pcsia.com (unverified [206.162.14.2]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:22:39 -0600 X-ROUTED: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:22:38 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: MMiller Received: from [206.162.14.77] by www.pcsia.com with smtp id 0d0a133c ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:22:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991101130939.007d89f0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:09:39 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Do-it-yourself corn breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 Roberto's discussion below is the crux of the matter in many of our discussions. Privatizing public resources for corprate gain and it's cousin - Externalizing private costs to the public. We saw it with: * neem insecticide in India, *tropical plants in the pharaceutical industry, *in the chemical trespass argument - privatizing my right to a full life by increasing the cancer risk of my environment *in the premature development of lepidotera resistance to the BT bacteria by the massive enviornmental dispersion of the associated toxin in various BT products. *odor, insects and manure spill problems from various types of excessively large and/or improperly sited livestock confinement operations. This problem of how to motivate people to work for economic gain and still maintain some moral responsibility in the enterprise had no doubt exercised liberal economists as much as God's allowance of evil in the world has exercised theologian. In the book, Winner Take All Society, the author discussed the misallocation of resources brought on by technogical change. His solution included the politically taboo idea of the taxing these exessive incomes in order to reduce the over allocation of resouces into these technologically driven areas. As Somebody said "The love of money is the root of all evil." Mike Miller > >Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and organized > >enough to come up with superior varieties, what is wrong with my > >protecting them from people who would steal them? Don't I have a > >right to earn a living? > >Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you mean, >steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, didn't you? >Once you release your breeding results, they're back to the public >pool, and the public is entitled to use them. That's what all farmers >have been doing. Earning a living has nothing to do with stealing from >the public pool. > >Roberto > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 17:02:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05295 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02520 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:32:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02344 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.23] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:29:02 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:27:59 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17644.991101@acnet.net> To: mike richardson CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re[2]: chlorpyrifos In-reply-To: <381DC884.ACA363D0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> References: <381DC884.ACA363D0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Hello Mike, Mark and all, I think we have two extremes here and I will attempt here to take a more measured approach. When Mark refers to "a violation of property rights and human rights. It should and will be litigated like tobacco and bullets", he's making a valid point but the analogy is somewhat premature. Tobacco has been proven to contain a large number of known carcinogens and other harmful substances and offers absolutely NO redeeming social value, while bullets do what they are intended to do: Kill and/or maim. With the first it's a fairly clear cut case (it's still legal for adults with full use of their faculties to commit slow suicide via this means, but it's gotten a lot harder and more costly for anyone to foist damage on third parties), and with the second it's a matter of who's using them against who, under what circumstances and the legal rights (and the ability to defend those rights) of the respective parties involved. But when we talk about toxic pesticides, we're discussing what is still the current convention, and one with a number of claimed redeeming social values. However, the situation is changing, and changing ever-more rapidly. As ecologically sane alternatives to toxic pesticides become increasingly available and the use of them more common, the preference of the public for foods produced via these means is also increasing, logarithmically. Incidentally, another of the hidden foibles of OFPA is the certainty of elevating (or maintaining elevated) the cost of "organically" produced food stuffs. (Could this have been intentional)? But as economies of scales are reached and biologically based technologies continue to mature, the costs for ecologically sane agriculture will continue to lower, relative to those of "conventional" (i.e. toxic) agricultural practices, given that ecologically sane agriculture benefits far more easily than does "conventional" agricultural from new knowledge relating to biological systems approaches (since agriculture itself has never ceased to be wholly biological phenomena, at bottom, and can more easily incorporate and take advantage of these discoveries). The point is that it's just a matter of time before the greater public at large (and the legislation generated indirectly through their elected representatives) perceives toxic pesticides as unnecessarily damaging elements with no redeeming social value and at that point, the perception of those who recognize and resent the danger that these toxic substances represent will meet little resistance. (Not that long ago, smoking was freely permitted in elevators). As things stand, although it's just a matter of time, it will require both quantifying the damage on the one hand and the clear dominance of alternative technologies on the other, before becoming the order of the day. For now, current EPA, FDA & USDA regulations will determine where liabilities do and don't lie, but those too can be subject to litigation and where clear and wanton damage can be proven, large settlements may well be result from it. In short, liability depends to a large degree on the alternatives available, the need for and degree of the damage done, in addition to proving the existence of the damage. In any case, precedents need to be set and class action suits may well prove viable in the near term. Unlike the long establish practice of toxic pesticide use, the needless and exploitatively motivated introduction of GMOs into the environment at large is meeting an unanticipated resistance facilitated by modern and economic communications media, just as TV exposure put an end to war no stupider or more useless than other before it, 2 or 3 decades ago. But before any of you veterans jump on my cage for saying that, let me make it clear that I was ALWAYS willing and able to go do my share for my country. Yes sir, I said, count me in. Just put a gun in Nixon's hands and I'll follow, close behind him. (Which reminds me, that this was the war that invented the word "fragging"). On the other hand, we could wait until "the enemy" really represents a threat to the nations integrity (rather than to the economic interests of just a few US fat cats); and that was how it wound up, with the government deciding that I was best left in reserve, as a secret weapon. (I'll bet some of you think I'm kidding). But I digress. Nothing new follows below. Monday, November 01, 1999, 11:06:12 AM, you wrote: mr> Mark: You said mr> "Maybe I wasn't clear. If a corporation puts something into my mr> body that is not invited it is a violation of property rights and mr> human rights. It should and will be litigated like tobacco and mr> bullets. " mr> Go ahead, and while you are at it sue all industries that have even the mr> slightest emissions into the air or water, regardless of how well they mr> conform to existing laws. Go after state and federal road programs too, mr> especially in the areas where seams of Chattanooga shale have been mr> exposed (natural radiation source). Lets back the EPA when they find mr> the most miniscule traces of carcinogens (remember saccarin), regardless mr> of whether they really pose an identifiable seriouse health risk. mr> Farmers should be sued en mass since they contribute soil erosion mr> pollution to the water and air no matter how conscientious they are. mr> Your argument reminds me of the wildly disproportional response to the mr> unfounded Alar scare. A lot of good people were hurt by the media's mr> irresponsible "reporting" of a danger that never was. mr> I'm sorry, but while I agree that we should find those things that mr> truely pose a health threat and either stop or mitigate the problem, I mr> have little patience with those that believe in a fairy tale environment mr> that is all pure and good, or that finds enviromental boogymen hiding mr> under the bed every night. mr> Son of Richard mr> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command mr> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command mr> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". mr> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command mr> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". mr> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: mr> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 17:21:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05631 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16720 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:00:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ntscspdcexch1.caldwellspartin ([208.24.177.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16669 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by NTSCSPDCEXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:59:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Walker Bennett To: "'mmiller@pcsia.com'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: free range eggs Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:58:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 The chicks would be a worry from all of the predators you describe. However, the cat will soon learn not to tackle a bird bigger than it (chickens are NOT nice birds). Your biggest problems from your list would be the raccoons and dogs. Walker Bennett wbennett@caldwellspartin.com wabennett@gw.total-web.net w_bennett@msn.com ___________________________________________________________ A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election. - Billy Vaughan Tuesday, November 2nd is election day! Remember to vote. ___________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: mmiller@pcsia.com [mailto:mmiller@pcsia.com] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 8:14 PM To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: free range eggs >Subject: RE: free range eggs > I read a few years back that a lot of the yellow was actually caused >by the increased chlorophyll that a free range chicken ingests from grass, >etc.. The firmness caused by the increased protein from insects rather than >grain in commercial feed. This with all of the other 'trace' nutrients they >get from scratching and pecking at everything. Alright, you all have me convinced. I have wanted to start with a few chickens here on the farm but how do free range birds hold up with the red-tailed hawks, raccoons, possums, owls and my major worry, my barn cat, who the other morning brought me a adult rabbit as big as he is. (looked like a mini-lion dragging the rabbit between his legs)? Then there are the coyotes and wild dog pack from people in the city who dump their unwanted litters out here in the country. I figure I would have to cover any chicken pen just to assure there would be chickens left after the first month. What is your experience? Would I just be feeding the wildlife? Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 17:45:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06056 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04584 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:28:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04566 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.225 (mx3-82.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.225]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10310; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:26:11 -0600 Message-ID: <381E172F.763@smallfarms.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:41:52 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Credit cards. Not solicitation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Hi. And no this isn't one of those credit card solicitations. A farmer who's thinking about registering for free at smallfarms.com is considering whether offering credit card services will increase his sales. As you know, we do not offer credit card services at smallfarms.com as a way for making registration easier for farmers and ranchers. For us, It would increase costs beyond our low $29.00 / year regular fee, and we trust small farmers and ranchers to pay us in a timely manner. We have no relation to the following sites and do not endorse them. Sales, Marketing and promotions are important to farming and we pass these sites on as information. Start with their FAQs. http://www.charge.com/ http://www.itransact.com/index.html glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 18:59:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07313 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16427 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:37:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16417 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from dewitt.iastate.edu (dewitt.agron.iastate.edu [129.186.20.17]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA01183; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:35:17 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991101173101.00765eac@exnet.iastate.edu> X-Sender: x1dewitt@exnet.iastate.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:31:01 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Jerry DeWitt Subject: Leopold Center Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 To: Saneters From: Jerry DeWitt Iowa State University The search for the Director of the Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture in Iowa is nearing completion. The search was extended so that candidates for the Leopold Director position could be informed of the list of candidates being interviewed for the Dean of the College of Agriculture position. For many potential candidates this information was very important because the Director of the Leopold Center will report to the Dean of the College of Agriculture. Shown below are the candidates being interviewed for the Dean's position. Applications for the Director of the Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture are still being accepted with an announcement of finalists expected in mid-November. Application information is available by calling Wendy Wintersteen, Chair of the search committee at 515-294-7801 or by accessing http://www.ag.iastate.edu/news/leopold.html College of Agriculture Dean finalists are Alan Bennett, associate dean of the College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, University of California, Davis; Cornelia Butler Flora, director of the North Central Regional Center for Rural Development, Iowa State; Joseph Jwu-shan Jen, dean of the College of Agriculture, California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, Calif.; Gary Minish, head of the department of animal and poultry sciences, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg; Colin Scanes, executive associate dean of agriculture at Iowa State; and Paul Wangsness, senior associate dean of the College of Agricultural Sciences, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 20:23:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08778 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08438 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:02:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08429 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailcore0.oh.voyager.net (mailcore0.oh.voyager.net [207.0.229.17]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15877 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (d14.as1.gnvl.oh.voyager.net [207.90.124.142]) by mailcore0.oh.voyager.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01941 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:00:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004f01bf24d0$85d21b40$8e7c5acf@oemcomputer> From: "Paul Schmitmeyer" To: "Sanet" Subject: proposed organic cost share legislation Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:20:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Hi all, This is quite an interesting thread. I'm not really where to attack it, I just know I don't like the direction this legislation is all leading. There is a proplem in as much as there are too many certification agencies with too many different sets of rules and regs. Compound that with the different inspectors and how they might interpret different regs. It reminds me a lot of the current crop insurance program we have currently in place. If you happen to get a sympathetic adjuster they will work things as far as he knows he can get away with. Also just the opposite is true. Another thing that worries me is that this is all leading towards federal involvement, something none of us should want. Like someone wrote earlier said, there will be a day of reconning, a day to pay the Piper. They have screwed up our ag system completely. Subsidies have only helped the Big farmer get bigger yet. Yes, it helps out the small farmer also, but at what price? Paul To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 20:23:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08779 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08330 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:01:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from purple.tmn.com (purple.tmn.com [205.177.137.5]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08310 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from tmn.com ([164.106.173.25]) by purple.tmn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17370; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:56:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381E35DB.BFA1E78D@tmn.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 19:52:43 -0500 From: tabeles Reply-To: tabeles@tmn.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Hinds CC: Sal , "Harris, Craig" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program References: <006601bf247c$c139d280$889044c6@rain.org> <4514.991101@acnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 It is interesting to look at this exchange. A number of years ago I warned those in the organic industry that if they got gov't in the middle it would be a muddle (hmm, sounds like Dr. Seuss). The rationale was that if the gov't provided the cert that it would be a seal of uniform approval and a way to keep interlopers and the greedy out of just labeling something as organic. The industry was self regulating- once upon a time. But now you can't unscramble eggs and you get a half baked, expensive omlet that, like any gov't reg, has enough loopholes that you can drive a big 4WD right through it. sounds like that old Abbott/Costello exchange "Who's on First?" thoughts tom abeles Douglas Hinds wrote: > Hello Sal & all > > Sal was very eloquent and is totally right! OFPA is fundamentally > wrong in mandating obligatory USDA Organic Certification. Once a > decent Organic Rule has been developed and supported by the organic > community, those that need it will adhere to it and participate; but > USDA Organic Certification is going to have to be either non > compulsory or unconstitutional. Let it rest on it's own merit and let > the buyer insist on which certification program he, she or it > requires, if any. > > Craig too is correct when he says: > > > first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that usda > > develop a national program of standards setting and certification . > > > . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's > > disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and > > signed by the president, not with the usda-ams implementation of the > > legislation > > Having been passed by congress and signed by the president does not > make the obligatory aspect of USDA Organic Certification > constitutional (much less necessary or fair), and Sal is right again > when claiming that the $5000 limit for exemption is a "rip off". In > fact, it's ridiculous and offensive. > > OFPA as written will either be amended or become bogged down in court. > If implemented as it now reads, there will be serious liabilities > generated that will have attended to at a high cost, in the end. > > Douglas Hinds > > Monday, November 01, 1999, 9:21:21 AM, you wrote: > > S> ----- Original Message ----- > S> From: Harris, Craig > S> To: ; 'Bluestem Associates' > S> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:08 PM > S> Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program > > >> it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of > >> problems with certification . . . . > >> > >> first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that USDA > S> develop a national program of standards setting and certification . > S> . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's > S> disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and > S> signed by the president, not with the USDA-ams implementation of > S> the legislation > > S> calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > S> taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > S> set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks > S> if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the > S> inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy > S> now I pay a certifier, a inspector ,the state of Ca. etc how many pencil > S> pushing bureaucrats do I have to pay off just for telling the truth and > S> they all require paper work and can all charge me what they want. whats > S> with that. no one can tell you what you will have to pay to be organic > S> because every one charges what they want and u have to pay. it's a rip off > S> there are too many folks NOW with their hands in our pockets now. > S> I can't afford to give all these folks money now. > S> the organic tax is a rip off. > > >> second, when the first draft of the proposed implementation was released > S> for review last year, one of the major criticisms was that the cost of > >> certification would be unduly burdensome for small organic farmers > >> . . . > S> it seems to me that a cost-share arrangement addresses that > S> criticism . . . if one is going to be critical of the cost-sharing > S> proposals, i think one has to suggest ways in which they can be > S> revised (or alternatives implemented) which at the same time > S> mitigate the undue cost burden > > S> easy take the burden off the backs of the growers. they are paying to much > S> now. why do I have to pay a certifier and the state of Ca. both for the same > S> thing and why should I pay the USDA for the same thing I am paying everyone > S> else for. why do I have to give paper work to the state and be inspected by > S> the state and the certifier and pay them both for the same dam thing. its a > S> big rip off NOW and the USDA are talking about adding to the burden not > S> lifting it. I say let those that are lying pay and those that are telling > S> the truth not pay > S> this whole thing is a rip off. Mafia protection money . you get a letter > S> from the state of Ca. ok your organic now you have to pay us every year and > S> kiss up to us and the certifier sends a letter ok your organic now You have > S> to pay us every year year after year and the inspector sends us a bill yes > S> you are organic now you have to pay me every year year after year for the > S> rest of your life . I know I am organic what did i get from all this > S> nothing but a stinking little piece of paper more work. more bosses more > S> slavemasters now the USDA want to get into the act. ok your organic now > S> every year year after year after year you have to pay us. bull shit how > S> many pencil pushing bottom feeders do u have to pay off to tell the truth > S> organic Gestapo > S> extortion > S> force labor > S> slavery > S> the Mafia won they are now the Government and they got the organic grower by > S> the cohoniess and all these folks can charge what every they want and we > S> have to pay. > S> I can go on and on . those that feel it know it. > S> I say organic growers should not have to pay one cent more than any other > S> grower to grow and sell their crops and if they are organic they should be > S> able to tell anyone the truth. if the USDA wants to set a standard let them > S> if the USDA wants to regulate certifiers let them but don't tax the organic > S> grower for doing the good that he knows. > S> Its too much now > S> not one more cent > S> I need my money go rob someone else. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 20:28:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08832 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14167 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:12:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from landcare.cri.nz (landcare.cri.nz [202.27.240.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA14017 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from Lincoln-Message_Server by landcare.cri.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:10:07 +1200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:09:38 +1200 From: Will Allen To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: Ian.Brown@orc.govt.nz Subject: Whole farm environmental planning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 This information from the recently established NOSLaM web site (http://noslam.co.nz/) may be of interest to members of this group interested in whole farm environmental planning. A group of New Zealand farmers now has several properties in the final stages of environmental certification under a group scheme, to ISO 14001 standards. The North Otago Sustainable Land Management (NOSLaM) group's major project is the development of the ENVIRO-AG Farm Environmental Certification scheme, modeled on ISO 14001 environmental certification. The ENVIRO-AG process helps farmers objectively assess the environmental impact of their farm practices, develop suitable management practices and monitoring methods, then prove their compliance. The farmer controls this process and tailors the plan to suit his or her own needs. Over 80 properties throughout the region now operate ENVIRO-AG plans, which is seen locally as a major step toward achieving the goal of gaining recognition in the market place, both nationally and internationally, as a community operating sustainable farming systems. Since NOSLaM began in 1994, the group has encouraged the uptake of environmentally preferable farming methods through newsletters, field days, seminars and on-farm demonstrations. There is also evidence of the increased use of improved farming methods. While NOSLaM cannot claim full credit for this, survey results show that North Otago farmers have increased the use of less damaging crop establishment and pasture renewal methods, improved effluent disposal and other farm practices. Independent assessment has investigated the success of a non-regulatory approach in improving farmer practices, and the group's methods appear to be working well. NOSLaM's new web site may be viewed at http://noslam.co.nz/ The web site has further information about the group and the ENVIRO-AG system. There are various downloads available in PDF format of farm plans, as well as the ENVIRO-AG handbook. The group is keen to establish links with other related web sites and others interested in using the ENVIRO-AG system. and would welcome feedback on their approach. For further information contact Ian Brown, Manager Land Resources, Otago Regional Council (e-mail: Ian.Brown@orc.govt.nz) This posting made by: ===================================================== Will Allen Manaaki Whenua - Landcare Research NZ Ltd. PO Box 282, Alexandra, New Zealand Tel: +64 3 4489932 Fax: +64 3 4488939 http://www.landcare.cri.nz/science/social/ E-mail: allenw@landcare.cri.nz WEBSITE: NRM_changelinks: Improving Community Participation in Environment & Development URL: http://nrm.massey.ac.nz/changelinks/ ===================================================== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 20:59:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09213 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04887 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:45:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04779 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11iSzD-0004JK-00; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:43:47 +0100 Message-ID: <381E4688.70D869CD@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 03:03:52 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, biotech_activists@iatp.org Subject: Hunza agriculture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 The site below is on the remarkable Hunza people, their agriculture and their way of live. http://www.soilandhealth.org/02healthlibrary/0203longevitycat/020302hlthyhunza/02030207.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 21:10:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09334 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09229 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:51:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09149 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id <4QTHK3NP>; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:50:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: FW: International Short Course on Agroecology Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:50:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 -----Original Message----- From: Agroecology Shortcourse [mailto:shortcourse@agroecology.org] Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 1:26 PM To: Andy Clark Subject: International Short Course on Agroecology Greetings from the University of California, Santa Cruz! We invite you to join our International Short Course on Agroecology, to be held at the Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems, University of California, Santa Cruz, August 7-18, 2000. The course is designed to give extensionists, farm advisers, trainers, NGO managers, farmers, graduate students, researchers, professors, and other agricultural professionals a practical, "hands-on" experience with the application of agroecological principles to the design and management of sustainable farming systems. The full course announcement is available on-line at: http://www.agroecology.org/shortcourse.htm A printable version of the course announcement is available as an adobe acrobat file: please print and distribute the course announcement at your workplace. The adobe acrobat reader/printer can be downloaded for free at: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html. If you plan to attend, please submit your application as soon as possible, before the application deadline of March 1, 2000, so that your place in the course can be guaranteed. Application details are included in the course announcement. Please let us know if you have any other questions, or would like to be kept updated as new information becomes available. A Spanish version of the course announcement is available on-line at http://www.agroecology.org/espanol/cursocorto.htm. Agroecologically yours, Stephen R. Gliessman, Alfred Heller Professor of Agroecology Erle C. Ellis, Agroecology Short Course Coordinator ----- International Agroecology Short Course Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064 Tel: (831) 459-2506 | Fax: (831) 459-2867 -->http://www.agroecology.org/shortcourse.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 21:19:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09419 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12925 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:59:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12866 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.116] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:56:40 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:55:15 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7830.991101@acnet.net> To: tabeles CC: Sal , "Harris, Craig" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, "'Bluestem Associates'" Subject: Re[2]: Proposed organic cost share program In-reply-To: <381E35DB.BFA1E78D@tmn.com> References: <381E35DB.BFA1E78D@tmn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Hi Tom & all, Monday, November 01, 1999, 6:52:43 PM, you wrote: TA> It is interesting to look at this exchange. A number of years ago I TA> warned those in the organic industry that if they got gov't in the TA> middle it would be a muddle (hmm, sounds like Dr. Seuss). It could have been done right. There IS a proper role for government in the matter, but that ISN'T the role that OFPA designates. TA> The [ostensible] rationale was that if the gov't provided the cert TA> that it would be a seal of uniform approval and a way to keep TA> interlopers and the greedy out of just labeling something as TA> organic. The industry was self regulating- once upon a time. Not quite. That is why third party certification organizations were created. Undoubtedly some are better than others, but truly interested and involved parties have or will develop (alone or with help), an appropriate criteria that gets to the medulla of what organic means and represents. They'll know who to trust, and falsehoods will be exposed, just as they are in politics or what have you. In the end, the products own quality speaks for itself and buyers already specify which certifying bodies they'll accept, when they require certification. (There are many instances when it's not needed, as in many CSA operations). Still, there is a need for an OFPA, but not the way this one reads at present. TA> But now you can't unscramble eggs and you get a half baked, TA> expensive omlet that, like any gov't reg, has enough loopholes TA> that you can drive a big 4WD right through it. Not only are there loopholes (that is, there is no guarantee that it will produce the desired results), OFPA creates abuses and injustices of it's own. I suspect that it will never be implemented, at least not as presently written. And if it is, the following morass in the courts will obviate any benefits it could have brought. All it needed to do was develop a consistent national standard that is congruent with organic principles and tradition, and achieves a consensus with the organic community. But any certification program that is linked to it will have to be voluntary: i.e., one option among others. This is not to say that the above mentioned consistent national standard wouldn't be backed truth in labeling laws and penalties for misrepresentation; but as Sal suggested (and he did this in 1997 as well - I happened to be searching the sanet archives for something else and ran on to this thread), just as was done with drag racers who questioned whether their opponents car was "stock" or not (requiring the the engine be dismantled), the cost of this was born by the party that was proved right - a cheater was penalized, while he who accused falsely the other without foundation was also. In short, we don't need a police state (and another bureaucracy with links to "friends" in the industry) running the show, we need a valid legal structure to provide an effective recourse for allowing consumers, growers and "value added" intermediaries to operate within defined limits that they themselves have defined and control. If government eats this, it will bloat, die and go rotten. TA> sounds like that old Abbott/Costello exchange "Who's on First?" Except that it's not funny. TA> thoughts TA> tom abeles nothing new follows below. -------------- TA> Douglas Hinds wrote: >> Hello Sal & all >> >> Sal was very eloquent and is totally right! OFPA is fundamentally >> wrong in mandating obligatory USDA Organic Certification. Once a >> decent Organic Rule has been developed and supported by the organic >> community, those that need it will adhere to it and participate; but >> USDA Organic Certification is going to have to be either non >> compulsory or unconstitutional. Let it rest on it's own merit and let >> the buyer insist on which certification program he, she or it >> requires, if any. >> >> Craig too is correct when he says: >> >> > first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that usda >> > develop a national program of standards setting and certification . >> >> > . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's >> > disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and >> > signed by the president, not with the usda-ams implementation of the >> > legislation >> >> Having been passed by congress and signed by the president does not >> make the obligatory aspect of USDA Organic Certification >> constitutional (much less necessary or fair), and Sal is right again >> when claiming that the $5000 limit for exemption is a "rip off". In >> fact, it's ridiculous and offensive. >> >> OFPA as written will either be amended or become bogged down in court. >> If implemented as it now reads, there will be serious liabilities >> generated that will have attended to at a high cost, in the end. >> >> Douglas Hinds >> >> Monday, November 01, 1999, 9:21:21 AM, you wrote: >> >> S> ----- Original Message ----- >> S> From: Harris, Craig >> S> To: ; 'Bluestem Associates' >> S> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:08 PM >> S> Subject: RE: Proposed organic cost share program >> >> >> it seems to me that two things are being ignored in this catalogue of >> >> problems with certification . . . . >> >> >> >> first, the national organic standards legislation mandates that USDA >> S> develop a national program of standards setting and certification . >> S> . . if one has disagreements with those two objectives, then one's >> S> disagreements are with the legislation as passed by congress and >> S> signed by the president, not with the USDA-ams implementation of >> S> the legislation >> >> S> calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off >> S> taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >> S> set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks >> S> if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the >> S> inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy >> S> now I pay a certifier, a inspector ,the state of Ca. etc how many pencil >> S> pushing bureaucrats do I have to pay off just for telling the truth and >> S> they all require paper work and can all charge me what they want. whats >> S> with that. no one can tell you what you will have to pay to be organic >> S> because every one charges what they want and u have to pay. it's a rip off >> S> there are too many folks NOW with their hands in our pockets now. >> S> I can't afford to give all these folks money now. >> S> the organic tax is a rip off. >> >> >> second, when the first draft of the proposed implementation was released >> S> for review last year, one of the major criticisms was that the cost of >> >> certification would be unduly burdensome for small organic farmers >> >> . . . >> S> it seems to me that a cost-share arrangement addresses that >> S> criticism . . . if one is going to be critical of the cost-sharing >> S> proposals, i think one has to suggest ways in which they can be >> S> revised (or alternatives implemented) which at the same time >> S> mitigate the undue cost burden >> >> S> easy take the burden off the backs of the growers. they are paying to much >> S> now. why do I have to pay a certifier and the state of Ca. both for the same >> S> thing and why should I pay the USDA for the same thing I am paying everyone >> S> else for. why do I have to give paper work to the state and be inspected by >> S> the state and the certifier and pay them both for the same dam thing. its a >> S> big rip off NOW and the USDA are talking about adding to the burden not >> S> lifting it. I say let those that are lying pay and those that are telling >> S> the truth not pay >> S> this whole thing is a rip off. Mafia protection money . you get a letter >> S> from the state of Ca. ok your organic now you have to pay us every year and >> S> kiss up to us and the certifier sends a letter ok your organic now You have >> S> to pay us every year year after year and the inspector sends us a bill yes >> S> you are organic now you have to pay me every year year after year for the >> S> rest of your life . I know I am organic what did i get from all this >> S> nothing but a stinking little piece of paper more work. more bosses more >> S> slavemasters now the USDA want to get into the act. ok your organic now >> S> every year year after year after year you have to pay us. bull shit how >> S> many pencil pushing bottom feeders do u have to pay off to tell the truth >> S> organic Gestapo >> S> extortion >> S> force labor >> S> slavery >> S> the Mafia won they are now the Government and they got the organic grower by >> S> the cohoniess and all these folks can charge what every they want and we >> S> have to pay. >> S> I can go on and on . those that feel it know it. >> S> I say organic growers should not have to pay one cent more than any other >> S> grower to grow and sell their crops and if they are organic they should be >> S> able to tell anyone the truth. if the USDA wants to set a standard let them >> S> if the USDA wants to regulate certifiers let them but don't tax the organic >> S> grower for doing the good that he knows. >> S> Its too much now >> S> not one more cent >> S> I need my money go rob someone else. >> >> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 21:34:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09584 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21750 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:13:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21741 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-60ppp88.epix.net [209.74.60.88]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id VAA05152; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:11:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381E49FE.6DB73217@epix.net> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:18:39 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Ann Clark" CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: no-till chemical use (long) References: <3819A43F.76778695@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> <3819C685.337C4AFE@uoguelph.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 sanet, Ann Clark, (whom I admire as a pasture expert) wrote a long post on her take of the notill system and for the most part was suggesting that it is not environmentally friendly. "E. Ann Clark" wrote: > Might also add that even well managed no-till inherently and inescapably > creates a whole suite of problems > The obligatory dependence on herbicides > Colleagues in Land Resource Science tell me that no-till slows down the rate > of loss of OM under annual arable cropping, but does NOT increase full-profile > soil OM. > > And then there is the issue of N-use efficiency. > > Surface residues also keep soil colder longer, which effectively shortens the > growing season in a short season climate, such as we have in Canada. > Only certain crops *can* be grown no-till, > Another unintended effect of no-till is leaving allelochemically active > residues on the soil surface > > So, from a different (pro-pasture, admittedly) vantage point, no-till is a > proprietary band-aid to patch up a arable crop technology (annual tillage to > produce annual grain crops) that is fundamentally at odds with the ecological > integrity of farm land. The "Permenant Cover Cropping System" that I have developed utilizes very little chemicals and soil quality has increased dramatically. It is fundementally based on notill. Notill has a place in Sustainable Ag. Just look at all the SARE funded projects that have notill as a component. > The problem(s) with tillage is soil erosion and > degradation, with consequent effects on related processes, as water use > efficiency. and this is a *HUGE* issue that most conventional farmers AND organic farmers convieninatly sweep under the rug and ignore. It is the "skeleton in the closet" of the organic row crop farmers. There is no ideal ecologically perfect way to farm. Tillage is a diaster for soil life and it is not natural, but that doesn't make notill the only way to farm. As pointed out, it does have some negative baggage, but so does a well managed pasture system. > Admittedly, pasture > also creates some potential problems, relating to soil compaction (and water > infiltration etc.) and N leaching/volatilization - although these are at least > partly managable through such practices as restricting labile N (less chemical > N; lower % legume). > Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 22:27:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10091 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00614 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00603 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09915; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12199; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:10:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:10:56 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: wytze cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, biotech_activists@iatp.org Subject: Re: Hunza agriculture In-Reply-To: <381E4688.70D869CD@zap.a2000.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, wytze wrote: > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 03:03:52 +0100 > From: wytze > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, biotech_activists@iatp.org > Subject: Hunza agriculture > > The site below is on the remarkable Hunza people, their agriculture and > their way of live. > >http://www.soilandhealth.org/02healthlibrary/0203longevitycat/020302hlthyhunza/02030207.html Start here and go to the health library then to longevity http://www.soilandhealth.org The Healthy Hunzas J.I. Rodale The entire book is digitized and put online for reading or download Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 22:28:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10096 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00863 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:14:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from crow.a001.sprintmail.com (crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00855 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP005.dialsprint.net [158.252.94.13]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17519 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:12:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381E57FB.39BD5F03@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 22:18:19 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Time and the Benefit of BT Corn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 Douglas, You seem to have misread my post. I was agreeing with you from the beginning. Maybe you don't agree that agriculture is an unnatural act, but I happen to believe we left the natural world when we stoppd being hunters/gatherers/scavengers. And I was trying to say that GMOs are an aberation, but follow a sequence of manipulation throughout our plant breeding history. And I didn't say that heirlooms and GMOs were the same thing. I was saying that most of our varieties are the result of some manipulation. AND you said, "How long were you breast fed, BTW?" Around here, the common response to an insult like that would be, "Yo mamma so stank..." or announcing that it's time for the little 'uns to bunch up and the big 'uns to line up. But I will forgo the local customs and await an appropriate apology. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 1 23:24:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10965 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28363 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:59:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28130 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.244.68.137.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.244.68.137]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02490; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:56:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381D2D7D.8BD35802@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:04:45 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Brooks Gruver CC: sanet Subject: Re: Dick and Sharon Thompson's "problem child" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 I can't see how, if one utilized seaweed, either as the fairly cheap soluble powder, or the more expensive per acre seaweed meal,how one could ever, ever get K deficiency. Seaweed has plenty of it. I haven't heard anything about those people, for a long time. Are they still farming? Joel Brooks Gruver wrote: > Hello to all... > > Last night, I was browsing an old issue of the Journal of > Agronomic Education (~ 1991, so it may have been the newly named > incarnation) and read a case study article titled "Dick and Sharon > Thompson's problem child". The article was presented in the form of a case > study that one would discuss with undergrad agronomy students or crop > consultants in training. > > The case study presented that > after ~20 years of organic integrated livestock and row crop > production, the Thompsons decided that they had to start banding muriate > of potash (KCl) to alleviate K deficiency. Tissue tests of their corn > indicated a serious K deficiency but soil tests indicated K levels that were > more than adequate. > > Since adopting organic management practices in 1969, the Thompsons had > not applied any salt fertilizers but had ammended all fields with > manure from their integrated cattle operation. For a number of years, they > composted the manure prior to field application but eventually decided > to abandon composting. Despite the fact that their soil test K levels had > increased during their 20 years of organic management, something was > causing their crops to become increasing K deficient. > > The article indicated that following the initiation of KCl banding, > crops did show a yield response in most fields but continued to have low > tissue levels of K. The article suggested that the Thompson's ridge > tillage system may have been partly responsible for the unsual K dynamics. > > Sooo... ~ 7 years have gone by since this article was written... I am > wondering whether the Thompsons have resolved or continued to struggle > with their "K problem child" and/or what mechanisms were underlying the > problem... Can anyone enlighten me ? > > Joel Gruver > Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment > Tufts University > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 2 00:34:52 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11811 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10243 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:07:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10163 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id NAA15221; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:01:02 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id NAA09535; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:34:12 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911020534.NAA09535@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 02 Nov 99 12:13:23 Subject: high cost of organics To: dmhinds@acnet.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 >Incidentally, another of the hidden foibles of OFPA is the certainty >of elevating (or maintaining elevated) the cost of "organically" >produced food stuffs. (Could this have been intentional)? Of course, it is intentional. There are two options for the government to do: 1) if you choose to be organic, you must pay me to inspect you that you don't use chemicals blah blah, as Sal said. 2) if you use chemicals, you must pay me to inspect you that you don't use too much blah blah The first option favors the chemical firms, because it makes organic expensive, even with lower inputs. In effect, it makes chemical use the default. The second option favors organics, because it makes chemically-grown crops more expensive. It makes organic the default. If the government used the first option (we're not even talking of subsidies here!). Organics will take over very quickly. This approach will automatically take care of the cheats who falsely claim they are organic, but use chemicals. They can be prosecuted for evading inspection. No chemicals, no need for certification. This should be the goal. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 02:18:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12854 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA14337 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:02:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14236 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.166] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:59:20 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:58:11 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <240.991102@acnet.net> To: Alex McGregor CC: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re[2]: Time and the Benefit of BT Corn In-reply-To: <381E57FB.39BD5F03@sprintmail.com> References: <381E57FB.39BD5F03@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Hello Alex, Monday, November 01, 1999, 9:18:19 PM, you wrote: AM> Douglas, AM> You seem to have misread my post. I was agreeing with you from the AM> beginning. I'll agree we agree. AM> Maybe you don't agree that agriculture is an unnatural act, AM> but I happen to believe we left the natural world when we stoppd being AM> hunters/gatherers/scavengers. No, I think man by nature is a farmer, actually an extension of the plant, a walking, talking plantman that can do things to his his own kind. This we can do because we don't have roots, but that's exactly why we depend on the rest of them (us) to keep us (unrooted ones) sustained. How about them apples? I'm going father back in time than you. And even a hunter / gatherer alters the ecosystem. To me the conscious act is were it's at. Only humans understand so much what a seed represents, what it can become. we don't just eat, fly and shit like birds, we take care of what we plant. This is the BASIC human trait, to me. I but still agree that we agree. AM> And I was trying to say that GMOs are an aberation, but follow a AM> sequence of manipulation throughout our plant breeding history. Working with, not against the plant is OK. We're helping those that are most generous and not probably NOT the ones that out their effort into outgrowing the rest. No, these PRODUCE a life giving quality that goes beyond themselves. (Poetic, isn't it). AM> And I didn't say that heirlooms and GMOs were the same thing. I was AM> saying that most of our varieties are the result of some manipulation. Ditto to the above. AM> AND you said, "How long were you breast fed, BTW?" Around here, the AM> common response to an insult like that would be, "Yo mamma so stank..." AM> or announcing that it's time for the little 'uns to bunch up and the big AM> 'uns to line up. But I will forgo the local customs and await an AM> appropriate apology. AM> Alex No Alex, people who weren't breast fed or who did it for a short time often feel less integrated and intuitive with nature - they don't identify with it to the same degree as those that had more mother's milk do and there was no offense meant nor made so forget the apology. It was a legitimate question and I'm interested in your answer. BTW, my brother's name is Alex too (as was my grandfathers), and he nursed for a much shorter period than I did and there is no doubt in my mind that this had some effect in terms of his development, behavior and present day assumptions, but he's still my brother (and a good one) and it certainly was not his fault (nor my mother's for that matter). He's strong in his own way and has done more than I have in some respects, to date. In any case, there's no conflict between us and never has been. And if you think there is with you, it's strictly imagined. Look for another excuse to get belligerent, but do it on your own hook, because my comment had a basis in fact and I have no idea why you find anything wrong with it. These are things that happen to form part of life and the world we live in. I sure you agree that we're all civilized adults here, and I'm confident that you will accept my explanation and rectify your error of interpretation. Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 03:37:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13406 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00529 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:20:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA00385 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12621; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:19:05 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20782; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:19:55 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 2 Nov 99 09:12:18 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 2 Nov 99 09:11:45 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: benbrook@hillnet.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:11:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Subsidies and Priorities Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <751AC278E5@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 hello charles, > A post this a.m. on this tread included the following: > >"GEMA Summary April, 15 1998: > >Amount spent to produce food consumed >in the US in 1996 (farm cost): $126 billion. >Amount spent on marketing it: $421 billion" > you mustn't wonder : In an average american life, an entire year is spent watching television commercials. by the time they graduate from high school, typical american teenagers have been exposed to 360,000 advertisements. thousands of consumer messages a day tell americans to buy things. advertisements are often the only source of information a consumer has about a product, and as discussed in the section above on eco-labeling, complex information is required for a consumer to make an informed decision about the environmental impact of a product. (source: whitehouse.gov) half of all purchases are made on impulse. and if an sustainable agriculture wants to gain land against the agressive advertisements of their business rivals, they really should think it over, if it's enough to say: "our products/philosophy speaks for itself". i do not talk of aggressive and competor-hostile advertising, but of fair information about the relationship between income of industrial workers and farmers and the percent income spent on healthy food vs. other quite useless products. sustainable agriculture today has one ENORMOUS advantage (thanks to industry!!). for years the big companies rode the train of "natural" foods ("all-natural", "no preservatives", "prepared like at mom's", "aunt sally's cookies", ads with pictures of undistorted, green meadows, little green dwarfs harvesting little green peas from little green plants in midst of nice green fields, farmers caring for their animals like they were their own children, production of corn flakes (mr. kellog would turn himself in his grave, if he would see today's production methods of his label), which perfectly fits into the picture of sustainability and "in harmony with nature". and the same picture has become their "kismet" of today. for years they earned a lot of money (for free) with these adds, which had nothing to do with reality, but with fooling of consumers. result: nowadays they have the problem to explain, why the meanwhile welltrained consumers should shift away from it to GMO's, functional food or additives. scientific explainations won't help, no matter how true/honest they are. the ghosts, they once called.... again: sustainable agriculture needs more advertising. that's something, a lot of organic farmers won't agree with, because it's meddling with their philosophy. but advertising certainly is not restricted to tv ads.. and finally you will have to deal with the ethical question, whether you have to compete unfair, manipulating and wrong ads with a fair behavior... sociology says NO. (the prisoners' dilemma, the evolution of cooperation, game theory. btw: axelrod's "the prisoners' dilemma" - also known as the game of "tit for tat" shows a nice example, how a altruistric group can invade a group of aggressive enemies). klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 03:47:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13480 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05434 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05409 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13278 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA18521 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:30:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Interesting website: Holism, Evolution & Ecology Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Holism, Evolution & Ecology http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/ecotao/std-1.htm Nature's Holism Ecotechnology Ecotaoism <><><><> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 10:55:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18006 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA04859 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:48:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04844 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-148.rain.org [198.68.144.148]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3FA2761746; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:46:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002401bf2540$fa9a15c0$949044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Bluestem Associates" , References: Subject: Re: 'Small' farms & certification Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:45:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Bluestem Associates To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:16 PM Subject: 'Small' farms & certification > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800, Sal wrote: > > >calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > > I believe that the US Small business Administration sets the threshhold > for 'micro' businesses at $250,000 annual sales and below. That covers > 94% of all American farms. I don't know where the upper threshold is, > but it's probably more than my businesses are ever likely to gross. > > Half of US farmers have less than $10,000 in annual sales. all the more reason not to charge these poor farmers money they need to live on. The government they love duplication and overlap and easy made jobs and powertrips. they feel organic growing is the cash cow and they are all out to milk it . Mafia protection money if you don't pay you can't do business. I have to pay a certifier,an inspector,the state of Ca. and now you want me to pay the Fed. USDA for the same dam thing. send paper work to all four and bow down to the power trips that all four are on. Your a farmer king of you farm and you get all these powertripers tell you what u have to do to meet their power trip and the funny part is that it has nothing to do with if u are organic or not but how u cross your ts and dot your i. this is every year over and over . it is getting to be real bull shit. and every year someone else forces you to pay them. it is always let the farmer pay for it all he can get the money back from his customers. where is that guarantee at. and why should I tax my customers who are the only folks I care about. > *However* when I was living in Wisconsin I was tangentially involved in > a case in which an organic grower was routinely using calcium nitrate > and some other prohibited materials. If he was bigger than $5,000, it > wasn't by a lot. so what if there is a thief in a town they don't search every ones house in the whole town to find the one thief why make the honest folks pay because someone cheats. > Cheaters come in all sizes, including small, which is why they, too, > need to be certified. The organic premium is supposed (in part) to > cover the *additional* costs of producing organically, is it not. > Additional costs like paperwork and certification. this is bull shit I don't get a organic premium and I'm lucky to sell my stuff at the same price big farmers get. this is the most bullshit I ever heard . are u going to guarantee me a premium? who guarantees me a supposed premium the certifier the inspector the state of ca the usda . > I'm not sure who is "ripping off" whom when organic growers want the > full premium for their production, but seem pathologically unwilling to > make the efforts in soil care and recordkeeping (including > certification) to justify that premium. all these certifiers and inspectors and usda made jobs and state run rip-offs don't make me organic and don't justify any premium I may get it is the fact that I farm organic my own labor not what these pencle pushers do . if you don't trust me and you don't trust CCOF and you don't trust IFOAM and you don't trust the state of Ca. what makes you think they will trust the USDA. i don't understand if I did not do anything different this year than last year why just because the date changes and it 99 or 20000 why do they all get to line up and get paid again . just because the year changes does not mean I changed anything. so why every year what does that date change have to do with being organic . > I have been on 2 acre organic vegetable farms with 125-150 ton/acre > annual erosion rates. They were pocketing their premium and giving > absolutely nothing back to the land. Their sales were under $5,000 but > they should no more have the right to call themselves organic than if > they had been using Sevin to control squash bugs. It us the > certification process --- with all its flaws --- that should be making > that determination. Self-definition as organic, regardless of size, is > simply wrong. so what! you know a cheater big deal so make every one doing good give up their right to innocent until proven guilty and the organic grower is guilty until he pays to prove he is innocent. and pays and pays and pays over and over again every year. year after year.to more and more people. bullshit. I did not do anything different this year than last year yet they line up to get their pound of flesh every year. are you organic ok pay us. bullshit why should I pay more than a chemical farmer to sell my goods . whats is fair about that. who is this USDA and STATE and inspector and certifier that their word is better than mine and why should I pay all of them. What happen to my robe of innocence? you mean the state does not trust the certifier and the certifier does not trust the inspector and the USDA does not trust any of them. hehe I am certified for my customers but this is getting nuts. I can't even support me let alone a big bureaucratic sink hole. every one charging what they like and I am in the middle being force to pay what every they ask and do what every they ask and bow to all these folks that don't do shit for me but take my money. My customers are happy with my CCOF and IFoam certification and I don't need any more people to pay off. so you know a cheater turn him in don't make me pay for his wrong doing I can't afford it. turn in his certifier turn in his inspector but because some one growing organic may cheat don't make me pay over and over again to more and more people what ever they bill me. the inspectors just gave themselves another raise now they get full pay for driving to your house plus gas and motel room . the state guy is getting paid and only works a three day week is on a real powertrip just talking to him makes me sick and they did not send me my registration for over 8 months just to show me how much power they have. powertripers they got to show you they got the power if you are cheating or not and the USDA is releasing living Frankenstein plants that will make organic growing imposable. you think drift was a problem wait till these GMO start to drift. and you want me to bow down and kiss up to these folks. don't get me started. they all got to show you how much power they got don't do any thing to help u only there to whip their power trip on you . yes boss slavemasters extortionists the Mafia won that's why you don't hear about them. now the government controls the gambling and the loan sharking and the extortion. When the Mafia did it they called it numbers game now the government calls it the lottery . you better worry about the real cheaters the fox you all want to watch the hen house. Just say no to the organic tax just say no to oppression of the poor and rightous. > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 10:56:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18035 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06632 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:01:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06616 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:01:10 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from www.pcsia.com (unverified [206.162.14.2]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:59:18 -0600 X-ROUTED: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:59:18 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: MMiller Received: from [206.162.14.73] by www.pcsia.com with smtp id 080d0b3c ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:59:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991102084630.007c79b0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:46:30 -0600 To: Subject: USDA BioTech Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 This is excerpted from the Enviornment New Service's Ameriscan posting. Mike Miller BIOTECHNOLOGY IN AGRICULTURE EXPLORED ON NEW WEBSITE WASHINGTON, DC, November 1, 1999 (ENS) - A new website that will be a clearinghouse for agricultural biotechnology issues has been created by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA). "There is an incredible amount of information on biotechnology available through hundreds of sites on the Internet," said Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman. "By creating this new central website, we're providing a starting point for the general public, media, industry, academia and our international trading partners to access information about USDA's role in agricultural biotechnology." The new site offers answers to some common biotechnological questions, along with recent speeches by Glickman on agricultural biotechnology. The site also includes pages on biotechnology and trade, regulations and research. Links to many of the other government agencies involved in biotechnology are also provided. The site will be updated as new reports and information are released by USDA. Several USDA agencies have a role in biotechnology issues. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, the Food Safety Inspection Service, and the Agricultural Marketing Service help regulate the biotechnology industry. The Agricultural Research Service, the Economic Research Service, and the Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service conduct or fund agricultural biotechnology research. The Foreign Agricultural Service addresses biotechnology trade issues. The biotechnology website can be accessed at: www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 11:12:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18499 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10270 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:27:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10245 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id OAA05349; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:52:35 GMT Message-ID: <381EFA79.3472D51E@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:51:38 -0600 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 Hinds said: ".......when we talk about toxic pesticides, we're discussing what is still the current convention, and one with a number of claimed redeeming social values. However, the situation is changing, and changing ever-more rapidly. As ecologically sane alternatives to toxic pesticides become increasingly available and the use of them more common, the preference of the public for foods produced via these means is also increasing, logarithmically." Clark said: "Why should we (collectively, as a people) be allowing our creative energies to be sapped by this pinhead dancing (is 0.0001 picograms too much? how much more risk is 0.001 picograms?) when it would be so much more fruitful and life-enhancing to design and operate production systems that didn't create the niches allowing pests to proliferate to pestiferous proportions in the first place? It is the flawed system design (corn-soy-corn-soy-corn-soy) or 3000 cow dairies or megahog factories that has encouraged the slide into dependence on biocides." Excellent responses (exerpts). I agree that while we should be looking for alternatives to dependency on chemicals in farming, I also believe that we should not throw the baby out with the bath water, or get into picking the smallest of nits. People in general seem to have this need to swing on pendulums (spelling is not my forte), going from one extreme to another. "Plant fence row to fence row, boys," and use whatever chemicals are needed to get the job done ! Swhoooosh "Lets go back to the days of hunters and gatherers and live in caves, etc." Surely there is some middle ground we can come to where we are not *dependent* on chemicals, but also where sustainable agriculture is not some pie in the sky life led by latter day hippies. Remember, while it often takes time to get into trouble, it usually takes even more time to get out of it. Son of Richard PS to Hinds - I am a VV (1970-71), did my part proudly and still proud of my active & reserve career, but came to realize the futility and stupidity that was behind that war. Don't have any problems with anti-warriors as long as they realize that the GI's were not the problem. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 11:40:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19040 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA27661 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:01:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27651 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:05:11 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.156] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AAB373A90070; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:00:51 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:59:19 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: The word "organic," a right? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word "organic" in the marketplace. He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious who-knows what. I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be earned. There are many other marketing words for which you must earn the privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet all the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher unless I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups offering that service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* not matter. The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 11:59:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19356 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02830 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:24:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02796 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:07:26 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:16:31 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: dmhinds@acnet.net, mrichardson@tn.nrcs.usda.gov Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: chlorpyrifos -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 EPA documents concerning chlorpyrifos and process of review and decisionmaking. http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/chlorpyrifos.htm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 2 14:21:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22280 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA07601; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:19:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from web804.mail.yahoo.com (web804.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.64]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA07314 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:16:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19991102191626.27546.rocketmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.167] by web804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:16:26 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:16:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor To: CSAlist , sanet Cc: ecofarm@accokeek.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Forwarded for Shane -----Original Message-----From: shane labrake [mailto:ecofarm@accokeek.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:21 AM Subject: apprenticship/intern positions at Ecosystem Farm, AccokeekFoundation Dear Friends and Colleagues, Attached is an announcement for apprenticeship positions and an internship at the Ecosystem Farm of the Accokeek Foundation in Piscataway Park in Accokeek, MD. Please forward to any interested students or to any other forums where appropriate. Thanks in advance for your interest and cooperation. Sincerely, Shane J. LaBrake, Farm Manager Accokeek Foundation/RWS Ecosystem Farm 3400 Bryan Point Road Accokeek, MD 20607 Contact: Shane J. LaBrake, Farm Manager (301) 283-2113 ext. 906 (301) 283-2049 FAX e-mail: ecofarm@accokeek.org URL: http://www.accokeek.org Please Note: snail mail or phone contact preferred RWS Ecosystem Farm is hiring 3 full-season apprentices and 1 4-month summer intern for the year 2000 season. This is an intensive land-based training program in organic vegetable production for those who have a serious and mature desire to pursue farming as a way of life. The work is challenging – physically, mentally and emotionally, though thorough instruction and encouragement are provided in a safe and nurturing manner. Applicants must have a strong desire to learn, a willingness to work cooperatively with others, and be willing to work outdoors in all types of weather and to work hard under pressure. The apprentices normally work 55 hours/week. Some prior experience in farming is preferred, though not necessary. Apprentices will receive instruction in use of hand and mechanical tools (including tractor operation). The apprentices will also learn CSA operation and management and philosophy of sustainable agriculture. Apprentices will be involved in all aspects of production including greenhouse work, soil preparation, planting, transplanting, drip irrigation, cultivation and mulching, pest control and harvest. We offer a monthly stipend of $1250.00 and will assist the apprentices in finding local and affordable housing. A Senior Apprenticeship position follows the first season with a $1500.00 monthly stipend. The Accokeek Foundation is an equal opportunity employer. The Ecosystem Farm is an 8-acre certified organic vegetable farm (includes blueberries, cut flowers, culinary herbs and cover crops), on the banks of the Potomac River in Piscataway National Park. We use solar power for irrigation and potable water. We operate a 75-household CSA. Please contact by Dec. 20, 1999 for the 2000 season. Inquiries accepted year-round. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 14:46:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22956 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04800 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:18:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web804.mail.yahoo.com (web804.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.64]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA04767 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:18:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991102191626.27546.rocketmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.167] by web804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:16:26 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:16:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor To: CSAlist , sanet Cc: ecofarm@accokeek.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 Forwarded for Shane -----Original Message-----From: shane labrake [mailto:ecofarm@accokeek.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:21 AM Subject: apprenticship/intern positions at Ecosystem Farm, AccokeekFoundation Dear Friends and Colleagues, Attached is an announcement for apprenticeship positions and an internship at the Ecosystem Farm of the Accokeek Foundation in Piscataway Park in Accokeek, MD. Please forward to any interested students or to any other forums where appropriate. Thanks in advance for your interest and cooperation. Sincerely, Shane J. LaBrake, Farm Manager Accokeek Foundation/RWS Ecosystem Farm 3400 Bryan Point Road Accokeek, MD 20607 Contact: Shane J. LaBrake, Farm Manager (301) 283-2113 ext. 906 (301) 283-2049 FAX e-mail: ecofarm@accokeek.org URL: http://www.accokeek.org Please Note: snail mail or phone contact preferred RWS Ecosystem Farm is hiring 3 full-season apprentices and 1 4-month summer intern for the year 2000 season. This is an intensive land-based training program in organic vegetable production for those who have a serious and mature desire to pursue farming as a way of life. The work is challenging – physically, mentally and emotionally, though thorough instruction and encouragement are provided in a safe and nurturing manner. Applicants must have a strong desire to learn, a willingness to work cooperatively with others, and be willing to work outdoors in all types of weather and to work hard under pressure. The apprentices normally work 55 hours/week. Some prior experience in farming is preferred, though not necessary. Apprentices will receive instruction in use of hand and mechanical tools (including tractor operation). The apprentices will also learn CSA operation and management and philosophy of sustainable agriculture. Apprentices will be involved in all aspects of production including greenhouse work, soil preparation, planting, transplanting, drip irrigation, cultivation and mulching, pest control and harvest. We offer a monthly stipend of $1250.00 and will assist the apprentices in finding local and affordable housing. A Senior Apprenticeship position follows the first season with a $1500.00 monthly stipend. The Accokeek Foundation is an equal opportunity employer. The Ecosystem Farm is an 8-acre certified organic vegetable farm (includes blueberries, cut flowers, culinary herbs and cover crops), on the banks of the Potomac River in Piscataway National Park. We use solar power for irrigation and potable water. We operate a 75-household CSA. Please contact by Dec. 20, 1999 for the 2000 season. Inquiries accepted year-round. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 14:50:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22998 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05136 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05101 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22189; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27998; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:17:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:17:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Sal cc: Bluestem Associates , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: 'Small' farms & certification In-Reply-To: <002401bf2540$fa9a15c0$949044c6@rain.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 For those interested in following this thread and who may have missed reading any of the messages in it I am archiving it, on an ongoing basis, in its entirety at: http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/issues-and-news-issues/The.Truth.About.Organic.Certification Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Sal wrote: <><><> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 14:50:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23002 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02724 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02719 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21795; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27660; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:11:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:11:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Sal cc: Bluestem Associates , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: 'Small' farms & certification In-Reply-To: <002401bf2540$fa9a15c0$949044c6@rain.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 WHAT HE SAID! Sal, you're the man! You should become head of NOP! USDA organic certification is just (yet) another example of undo government intrusion and heavy handed intervention in our fine system of free enterprise and directly in the lives and livelihoods of many good hardworking, productive, resourceful, taxpaying citizens. Certtification of organic food production systems should not be mandatory, it should only be voluntary. The american consumer is intelligent enough to discern what products are worth buying in the marketplace. Retailers are fully capable of "certifying" the organic certifiers. Customers can simply look at a regularly-updated chart posted in plain view in a store to see which certifying agencies the store recommends, details on their track record and how to find certification information on each product labelled "organically produced" in the store. The government cannotget a patent on "I grew this product with materials suppied by Nature" using methods emulating natural processes." Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Sal wrote: > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:45:58 -0800 > From: Sal > To: Bluestem Associates , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: 'Small' farms & certification > > > check out a organic growers web page > http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bluestem Associates > To: > Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:16 PM > Subject: 'Small' farms & certification > > > > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:21:21 -0800, Sal wrote: > > > > >calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > > >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > > > > I believe that the US Small business Administration sets the threshhold > > for 'micro' businesses at $250,000 annual sales and below. That covers > > 94% of all American farms. I don't know where the upper threshold is, > > but it's probably more than my businesses are ever likely to gross. > > > > Half of US farmers have less than $10,000 in annual sales. > > all the more reason not to charge these poor farmers money they need to live > on. The government they love duplication and overlap and easy made jobs > and powertrips. they feel organic growing is the cash cow and they are all > out to milk it . Mafia protection money if you don't pay you can't do > business. I have to pay a certifier,an inspector,the state of Ca. and now > you want me to pay the Fed. USDA for the same dam thing. send paper work to > all four and bow down to the power trips that all four are on. Your a > farmer king of you farm and you get all these powertripers tell you what u > have to do to meet their power trip and the funny part is that it has > nothing to do with if u are organic or not but how u cross your ts and dot > your i. this is every year over and over . > it is getting to be real bull shit. and every year someone else forces you > to pay them. it is always let the farmer pay for it all he can get the > money back from his customers. where is that guarantee at. and why should > I tax my customers who are the only folks I care about. > > > > *However* when I was living in Wisconsin I was tangentially involved in > > a case in which an organic grower was routinely using calcium nitrate > > and some other prohibited materials. If he was bigger than $5,000, it > > wasn't by a lot. > > > > so what if there is a thief in a town they don't search every ones house in > the whole town to find the one thief why make the honest folks pay because > someone cheats. > > > > Cheaters come in all sizes, including small, which is why they, too, > > need to be certified. The organic premium is supposed (in part) to > > cover the *additional* costs of producing organically, is it not. > > Additional costs like paperwork and certification. > > > this is bull shit I don't get a organic premium and I'm lucky to sell my > stuff at the same price big farmers get. this is the most bullshit I ever > heard . are u going to guarantee me a premium? who guarantees me a > supposed premium the certifier the inspector the state of ca the usda . > > > I'm not sure who is "ripping off" whom when organic growers want the > > full premium for their production, but seem pathologically unwilling to > > make the efforts in soil care and recordkeeping (including > > certification) to justify that premium. > > all these certifiers and inspectors and usda made jobs and state run > rip-offs don't make me organic and don't justify any premium I may get it > is the fact that I farm organic my own labor not what these pencle pushers > do . if you don't trust me and you don't trust CCOF and you don't trust > IFOAM and you don't trust the state of Ca. what makes you think they will > trust the USDA. i don't understand if I did not do anything different this > year than last year why just because the date changes and it 99 or 20000 why > do they all get to line up and get paid again . just because the year > changes does not mean I changed anything. so why every year what does that > date change have to do with being organic . > > > > > I have been on 2 acre organic vegetable farms with 125-150 ton/acre > > annual erosion rates. They were pocketing their premium and giving > > absolutely nothing back to the land. Their sales were under $5,000 but > > they should no more have the right to call themselves organic than if > > they had been using Sevin to control squash bugs. It us the > > certification process --- with all its flaws --- that should be making > > that determination. Self-definition as organic, regardless of size, is > > simply wrong. > > > so what! you know a cheater big deal so make every one doing good give up > their right to innocent until proven guilty and the organic grower is guilty > until he pays to prove he is innocent. and pays and pays and pays over and > over again every year. year after year.to more and more people. bullshit. > I did not do anything different this year than last year yet they line up to > get their pound of flesh every year. are you organic ok pay us. bullshit > why should I pay more than a chemical farmer to sell my goods . whats is > fair about that. > who is this USDA and STATE and inspector and certifier that their word is > better than mine and why should I pay all of them. > > What happen to my robe of innocence? > > you mean the state does not trust the certifier and the certifier does not > trust the inspector and the USDA does not trust any of them. hehe I am > certified for my customers but this is getting nuts. I can't even support > me let alone a big bureaucratic sink hole. every one charging what they > like and I am in the middle being force to pay what every they ask and do > what every they ask and bow to all these folks that don't do shit for me but > take my money. My customers are happy with my CCOF and IFoam certification > and I don't need any more people to pay off. > so you know a cheater turn him in don't make me pay for his wrong doing I > can't afford it. turn in his certifier turn in his inspector but because > some one growing organic may cheat don't make me pay over and over again to > more and more people what ever they bill me. > the inspectors just gave themselves another raise now they get full pay for > driving to your house plus gas and motel room . the state guy is getting > paid and only works a three day week is on a real powertrip just talking to > him makes me sick and they did not send me my registration for over 8 months > just to show me how much power they have. powertripers they got to show you > they got the power if you are cheating or not and the USDA is releasing > living Frankenstein plants that will make organic growing imposable. you > think drift was a problem wait till these GMO start to drift. and you want > me to bow down and kiss up to these folks. don't get me started. they all > got to show you how much power they got don't do any thing to help u only > there to whip their power trip on you . yes boss slavemasters extortionists > the Mafia won that's why you don't hear about them. now the government > controls the gambling and the loan sharking and the extortion. When the > Mafia did it they called it numbers game now the government calls it the > lottery . you better worry about the real cheaters the fox you all want to > watch the hen house. Just say no to the organic tax just say no to > oppression of the poor and rightous. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 14:50:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23006 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04456 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:17:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04406 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.194 (mx3-51.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.194]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26709; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:15:12 -0600 Message-ID: <381F3BE8.76F0@smallfarms.com> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:30:48 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: who are our friends? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Morning! I visited the http://www.thehungersite.com, the people who donate food for hits we make there. Their numbers are impressive! Have a look at their list of sponsors which is varied and really impressive. It reminded me of the importance of seeking out and retaining our friends and partners in the sustainable, organic, small farms part of the food business. We know of at least one chef who is listening to our discussions because he posted a short message recently. Who else are we talking talking with? Are we covering all of our friends? glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 15:10:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23282 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08751 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08649 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22398; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28146; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:27:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:27:17 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Bluestem Associates cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Bluestem Associates wrote: > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:59:19 > From: Bluestem Associates > To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" > Subject: The word "organic," a right? > > Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word > "organic" in the marketplace. > > He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious > who-knows what. I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be > earned. > > There are many other marketing words for which you must earn the > privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet all > the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher unless > I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups offering that > service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* not matter. It is not the government's business to enforce this process. Private organic certification agencies and discerning consumers are all that is required to carry this out successfully. Of course if "We're THE Organic People", Inc. UnLtd. wants to mass market "official USDA Certified Organic soy doodles" to 1 billion dumbells who can't or won't read the label, then that's another matter, but WHY do skilled, committed, productive, deserving small organic growers have to make huge sacrifices to make this scam possible both for the government and their favored buddies in the corporate megalith agribiz world. I know, Dennis Avery told them it was OK. > The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone > can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." > > > Bart Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 15:25:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23784 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15610 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:39:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15537 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.183]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 4839700 ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:37:07 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991102143716.00794be0@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:37:16 -0500 To: jimdpitts@aol.com, jazzli@crocker.com, emaltby@open-field.org, begg@together.net, Mmaide@aol.com, bschultz@hampshire.edu, barts@valinet.com, bwallace@javanet.com, pickens@crocker.com, dcooley@microbio.umass.edu, kruhf@smallfarm.org, jcutson@hampshire.edu, Mmaide@aol.com, gabyi@buylocalfood.com, nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: High Tech Food Fight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 >From the National Journal, 10/23/99, p. 3075: More than two dozen Washington trade associations eager to promote wider public acceptance of genetically altered food have formed the Alliance for Better Foods. The group's members include the American Farm Bureau Federation, the American Meat Institute, the Food Distributors International and the National Food Processors Association. The group, which was cooked up earlier this month, is focusing on public relations rather than lobbying, said Stephen Gaskill, a spokesman for the group. The coalition, he added, operates out of the Washington office of BSMG Worldwide, a New York City-based PR firm. "Biotech food has such promise, and the science is so sound, that we wanted to ensure that products were not derailed by opposition before people have a real chance to understand what this is and what it can do," Gaskill said. The Alliance for Better Foods joins another group - the International Food Information Council - which has worked on public education about biotech food since 1985. Both groups face continuing criticism of genetically altered foods from, among other organizations, Greenpeace and Consumers Union. Exemplifying the influence of such foes, Greenpeace convinced Gerber Products CO. earlier this year to keep genetically engineered products out of its baby foods, according to Charles Margulis, a specialist in genetic-engineering issues for Greenpeace in Washington. ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 16:47:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25192 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04695 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04625 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24626 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02461 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:08:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:08:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Bluestem Associates wrote: > Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word > "organic" in the marketplace. > > He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious > who-knows what. I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be > earned. To repeat your words, "a *privilege* to be earned" is exactly right in the context of a producer wishing to market products labelled CERTIFIED organic as opposed to "organic", a label that anyone should be free to use, putting their credibility, accountability and quality assurance on the line for public scrutiny of, course. Organic certification agencies not given a free ride through government enforcement of organic labelling laws it creates and tailors to its own desired ends, would be motivated to compete with fellow certification agencies for clients seeking certification, touting their standards as the most exacting and reliable. Producers would strive to attain certification from the best agencies in order to gain maximum market access. "Letting the government do it" simply gives certification agencies a free ride and opens the door to abuse of the system, on the backs of the small organic grower who cannot afford the time and expense of getting certification and would rather rely on nearby local sales and building reputation and sales by "word of mouth", a perfectly legitimate and extremely effective way of doing business. Customers would gain by participating in such a system by having access to a broader range of products, possibly of better or equal quality to "certified organic" ones and participaion in a time-honored traditional marketing system that is more farmer, customer and and community-friendly, a system modeled in part on the Fertile Crescent, foodshed and food circle concepts. Get and keep the government out of the organic labelling business and let it stick to enforcing truth-in-labelling laws and monitoring the safety of products. > There are many other marketing words for which you must earn > the privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet > all the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher > unless I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups > offering that service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* > not matter. > The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone > can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." Nothing wrong with that and it usually comes with a high price tag these days as so many food products in the marketplace continue be adulterated and of poor nutritional quality. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 17:18:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25788 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23181 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:38:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23164 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-128.rain.org [198.68.144.128]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 030B861765; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:36:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001c01bf257a$5b644900$809044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Bluestem Associates" , References: Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:36:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Bluestem Associates To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:59 PM Subject: The word "organic," a right? > Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word > "organic" in the marketplace. > > He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious > who-knows what. I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be > earned. > > There are many other marketing words for which you must earn the > privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet all > the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher unless > I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups offering that > service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* not matter. > > The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone > can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." > I have been certified for over 15 years and have my land inspected and have paid a certifier and a inspector and the state of ca. all that time every year,year after year and I do care what is called organic what u talking about. and if a Rabbi comes to my house and kills a chicken and tells me it is kosher I would trust him . You trust the paper more than the Rabbi. hehe whats up with u telling folks How I feel. I been playing by the books for so long because I do care where organic is going and I don't like what I see. you going to force your powertrip on me telling me how I feel and saying I need some big brother to watch over me because I am "growing organic"I don't know what non natural and natural is and saying I have to bow to the USDA who are the real folks that don't know GMO from natural. your right I do disagree with you I feel if you grow organic you should be free to tell the world you do by growing organic that is what give me the right to use that word. I feel I have as much a right to use that word as anyone because I grow organic. ... .they have turned the word organic into a political football subject to hard money and soft money and back door money and under the table money and we want our word back. I have been using it and folks have grown organic for 6000 years and only now this generation of vipers want to tax u for being natural . they want to make you pay for the chemicals you don't use.is this a joke or what. is this backwards or what. and u bluestem associates what ever that means don't tell folks what I think I can tell them my self. I don't think this take over of the word organic and the con job by the USDA is a good idea and I don't like paying the state of Ca. just because I am organic why should they get extra money from me just because Im organic. . you are right I do feel if I grow organic I have the right to tell folks how I grew their food something the USDA does not feel folks have a right to know. we are paying too many people to much of our hard earned money. its a rip off. how many bureaucratic pencil pushing bottom feeders do I have to pay off just to be able to tell the truth. farming is hard enough with out all these bosses working their power trips on you . the bureaucratic bullshit is harder than the farming. they are all on powertrips who needs it. the biggest pest i have is this bureaucratic bullshit pest . they don't pick up a hoe or help u pick food or even pull a weed yet they feel they have a right to your money and the feel they have the right to tell you what they want from u because u are organic. they do nothing only boss u each with his own power trip what a night mare . they love to show you how much power they have. I don't need anymore more bosses . they think they are such bigshots give them a little power and they powertrip on you. It is that old slavemaster sprit they still have it. the USDA in all my years has not been the organic growers friend or the small farmers friend or the black farmers friend in fact they are the biggest reason you don't see many of these kinds of farmers. the fox watching the hen house . we don't need no stinking badges. > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 18:52:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27150 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA21950 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21899 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bermuda-asy-1.rutgers.edu (bermuda-asy-1.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.129]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA10956; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:11:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: bermuda-asy-1.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.129] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <381F999E.72AD@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:10:38 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: sanet Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 Bluestem Associates wrote: > > Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word > "organic" in the marketplace. > > He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious > who-knows what. I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be > earned. There exists at least one other option, and I would welcome commentary from everyone involved in buying, selling, marketing, or regulating, since the concept can be applied much more widely than just to the "organic" market. This option is basing the regulatory frame, not upon the dollar amount sold, but on the level of anonymity involved in the transaction chain, or the number of steps between producer and consumer, or some kind of measure other than a financial one. So, if I am buying personally, face to face, from a local farm, and I know these people and my kids go to school with their kids, and I see every day how they live their lives and I go past their fields and can ask them personally about various practices and problems, that is really very different than if I am making an anonymous purchase through a third party. Why not make the exemptions based, not on income, but on the relationship between buyer and seller? If I am in position where t's physically possible to decide personally whether I trust that specific producer personally, what is the interest of the Federal Government, state government, or anybody else in that transaction? The matter is in the realm of personal affairs between two individuals. This can apply to buying milk, eggs and butchered livestock from my neighbors as easily as to organic produce. When I am "protected" only from making my own decisions, who is really served? Who would object to making the criteria based on relationship? > There are many other marketing words for which you must earn the > privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet all > the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher unless > I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups offering that > service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* not matter. Well, actually, some individuals accept one organization's standards of kosher and not others. And as long as the consumer knows who is doing the certifying, who is harmed? It's just like when the different organic certifiers didn't have to pretend they were all the same, when in fact they were not. I used to be able to purchase based on who did the certifying, and those days will be over soon, probably devolving to the lowest common denominator, but possibly even worse. In the case of kosher food, the word "kosher" is not the deciding thing, it is the registered trademark of the certifying organization which carries the weight. Speaking here from the hub of orthodox Judaism in the USA...... LM To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 20:34:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28875 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03829 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:10:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03809 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:13:42 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.175] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AB3C634500BC; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 19:09:16 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:07:53 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:10:38 -0800, Loren Muldowney wrote: >There exists at least one other option, and I would welcome commentary >from everyone involved in buying, selling, marketing, or regulating, >since the concept can be applied much more widely than just to the >"organic" market. This option is basing the regulatory frame, not upon >the dollar amount sold, but on the level of anonymity involved in the >transaction chain, or the number of steps between producer and consumer, >or some kind of measure other than a financial one. I agree totally, big or small, size has nothing to do with it. Certification is institutionalised trust. When the trust relationship is there, you don't need the institution. In fact, I'll take well-placed trust over 'institution' any day of the week. The question of certification has everything to do with distance and intermediaries. Allow me to quote from an article I wrote in Growing for Market in May of 1999. I was referring to lot numbers, but that is a good substitute for the whole system of certification. "[certification] is almost always unnecessary for vegetables sold primarily into local markets (CSA, farmers' markets, farm stand, a few restaurants, etc.) In broad terms, if there is no more than one intermediary between you and the customer you can dispense with [certification] altogether for produce. Once you get into wholesale markets, however, where there are two or more intermediaries, [certification] is generally more important." (page 8) Let me add, since some folks seem to have some confusion about the matter, that I am categorically opposed to government involvement in certification beyond (possibly) the establishment of minimum standards as a mandatory *floor* (not ceiling), thereby eliminating all the California Code charlatans currently undermining the market for legitimate organic growers of all sizes. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 2 20:40:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28972 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11175 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:21:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11063 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.168] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:18:41 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:17:32 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1803.991102@acnet.net> To: "Bluestem Associates" CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 Hi Bart (and all the rest of you fellow saneters), Before going any further, I want to say that I have tremendous respect for Bart and consider many of his accomplishments to be extremely important. Having said that, I must state that I seem to share the "fundamental difference over use of the word "organic" in the marketplace" that he says he seems to have with Sal; except that in this instance I share it with Sal. Here's why (we'll continue below): Tuesday, November 02, 1999, 9:59:19 AM, you wrote: BA> Sal and I seem to have a fundamental difference over use of the word BA> "organic" in the marketplace. BA> He sees it as a *right* to be revoked only in the case of egregious BA> who-knows what. Here's what: It is true that the word "organic" has more than one usage. On the one hand, it represents a set of philosophic principles that in turn, have become embodied in specific farm production systems and the products that emanate from same. On the other hand, it is a word that has arrived at, through the hard work, perseverance and integrity of many (not the least of which is Bart Hall), at an important level of public and specifically, *consumer* recognition. In other words, the word organic itself has become imbued with it's own market value and can be considered a valuable commodity, the control of which lends considerable power and opportunity to whoever holds it. The meaning of a word is invariably related to it's etymology, or origins; coupled with the more recent and current common usage the word has been given, in practice. As things now stand, organic foods are those that were produced, handled and sometimes processed, using methods consistent with the organic philosophy and tradition. Additionally, an industry of third party "objective witnesses" has also developed, some of which have achieved a fair degree of respect within certain circles of buyers, be they consumers of intermediaries. These self proclaimed "objective witnesses", supported by those that value their "services" proportion a kind of affidavit as to the products' adherence to organic principles and processes, a "certification" as it were. Some state governments, building on their ability to make obligatory the use of this service from the vantage point of the political power they wield, have themselves entered into the "certification business". >From this perspective (a third definition), a product isn't organic on the basis of the way it was cultivated, handled and sometimes processed (Sal says it is, but Bart says it isn't), because from *this* perspective, the product is organic at the moment THE MAN with the POWER says it is, and not before. In short, words define states. The question is, which definition are we to accept? Which state is the real one? (Can states stand up and talk? You're damn right they can. Read on). BA> I (and many others) see it as a *privilege* to be BA> earned. And WHO, good buddy, doles out that *privilege*? Do we have to stand in line for it, after having followed all the appropriate principles, precepts and practices? Are our buyers and those who consume our products demanding that? BA> There are many other marketing words for which you must earn the BA> privilege of use --- kosher being the most obvious one. I may meet all BA> the requirements of kosher, but I cannot call my products kosher unless BA> I'm certified by one of the half dozen or so major groups offering that BA> service. Whether I'm small or not does not, and *should* not matter. We are not even going to discuss in this forum, the power that religion holds over it's disciples. BA> The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone BA> can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." BA> Bart Bart, what we really need is a comprehensive and consistent definition of what "organic is and isn't". But leave the need for verifying or not verifying that to those involved in each and every transaction. Once a valid legal definition that in turn is congruent with organic principles and tradition, one that is supported by the organic community exists; the state of being organic or not organic is INHERENT IN THE PRODUCT. The product embodies that state, and this state is something VERIFIABLE when this is appropriate; that is, when for the demand for it arises. This is true because we are talking about the possibility of consumer fraud having been committed. The questions Sal raised (and they're good ones) is WHO should bear the cost of verification and when should that cost be incurred. The answer is simple. (In reverse order): When reasonable doubt exists as to the veracity of the claims made, the cost being born by those that have made false claims when these have been proved false. On the one hand a given product is proclaimed to be organic, and on the other a suspicion has been raised that it isn't. Payment for the verification procedure should depend on the outcome of those tests. This is what Sal is saying. Let the USDA get into the certification business if it wants to, but let it compete in the market for those services like anybody else: Based on the merit of the service provided, as judged by those who use the service. For many, verification on demand will be preferable to obligatory and universal certification, and the legal basis for needs to be created. We can talk about legal definitions, talk about congress and the president of the united states if you like - but reality is not created by decree, my friends; nor is the meaning of words, particularly when they've been around as long as this one has, and has come to mean what it does precisely because there IS a difference in the value and results of different types of agricultural production systems, one founded on biological principles and processes, the other on easily commercialized bottles of chemicals that make little or no effort to account for the effects on the environment and human health they produce. I share Sal's outrage and find ample basis for his totally sincere and well founded analysis of the present situation. He's getting screwed as things stand and deserves much better treatment from the elected authorities who've sworn to uphold the public good, with liberty and justice for all. He's supporting a whole network of bureaucrats that add no value to the crops he himself produces, at his own cost. The idea that someone farther away from the scene is better equipped to determine whether or not his product is as he and his clients say it is, is an insult. If a reasonable doubt exists, that that doubt be raised in an appropriate forum, with the risk shared by both parties. If periodic inspections are called for due to public health concerns (as they could be in any industry and for organic and conventional farmers alike), funding for these should be derived from the same tax moneys that fund any other governmental activity at present, without penalizing the farmers that are doing more than the rest to produce a healthy, nutritious product without damaging the environment, and doing so on the basis of their own effort and conviction, with no help from those now living off these farmers hard work: Harvesting without having planted, cashing in without having to take a product to market I find this recent statement of yours inconsistent with the extremely well documented statements you sent to the NOP in relation to the Organic Rule which you were kind enough to send me copies of, and hope that it's a passing thing. Best regards, Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 07:02:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04507 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14836 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:48:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14772 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00601; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:47:29 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06961; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:48:23 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 3 Nov 99 12:40:42 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 3 Nov 99 12:40:04 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: jgruv@wam.umd.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:40:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Dick and Sharon Thompson's "problem child" Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <9093EC7845@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 hello joel, >Last night, I was browsing an old issue of the Journal of >Agronomic Education (~ 1991, so it may have been the newly named >incarnation) and read a case study article titled "Dick and Sharon >Thompson's problem child". > >The case study presented that >after ~20 years of organic integrated livestock and row crop >production, the Thompsons decided that they had to start banding muriate >of potash (KCl) to alleviate K deficiency. Tissue tests of their corn >indicated a serious K deficiency but soil tests indicated K levels that were >more than adequate. > >Since adopting organic management practices in 1969, the Thompsons had >not applied any salt fertilizers but had ammended all fields with >manure from their integrated cattle operation. For a number of years, they >composted the manure prior to field application but eventually decided >to abandon composting. Despite the fact that their soil test K levels had >increased during their 20 years of organic management, something was >causing their crops to become increasing K deficient. > >Sooo... ~ 7 years have gone by since this article was written... I am >wondering whether the Thompsons have resolved or continued to struggle >with their "K problem child" and/or what mechanisms were underlying the >problem... Can anyone enlighten me ? i think, that's an old problem with grassland. most of the nutrients (esp. nitrogen in up to 10% organic matter in the grasslayer) is found in the upper 10 cm of the field. the soil below gets deficient or the nutrients are fixated. so nutrient analysis usually is also restricted to a sample of these 10-15 cm, while in ploughed land you take 30-35 cm. then you plow the grassland and in the first and also in the 2nd (and most probably also in the 3rd) year you have: a) a deficiency of K (that's the usual result of our analyses and it results from the deficiency of the deeper soil layers, although the upper 10 cm are sufficiently or even high in potash content). things are getting better with the years, but you will have a deficiency for about 3 or 4 years. then orthoclas and caolinit will start to set free more K (but as a rule of thumb : always add K when switching from grassland to tillage.) and mostly K isn't the only deficiency to show up, it's only the most evident and b) high leaching of nitrogen, because the usually compact 10 cm upper soil (with the grassroots) becomes more aerated, drier and warmer, the OM is rapidly destroyed and cannot be absorbed in the now 30 cm of plowed soil. there's nowhere so much nitrogen leaching than in just ploughed grasslands.. klaus Klaus Wiegand Landwirtschaftl. Untersuchungs- u. Forschungsanstalt (LUFA) (Governm. Inst. for Agricult. & Environm. Res.) 67346 Speyer, Obere Langgasse 40 (GERMANY) Dept. of Seed Sci., Microscop. Analysis & Plant Pathol. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 07:17:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04599 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23481 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:04:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23405 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00788 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:03:19 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07027 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:04:13 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 3 Nov 99 12:56:33 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 3 Nov 99 12:56:09 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:56:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 hello sal, >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks >if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the >inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy >calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >set the standards and fine those that break the law not the >honest folks if you come and inspect me and i am telling the >truth u pay for the inspection if I am lying I pay and get a >fine. easy no, sal. it's not that easy ! let me speak as a consumer, not as a public consultant (yes, from time to time i also consume and stop analysing and consulting). you won't get away with that so simple. in case you acted against organic rules i believed your statements and you cheated me ! the usual result of a consumer would be: stay away from you FOREVER and try his luck elsewhere. your idea is: just pay a fine and then you are allowed a second try of cheating me. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. why do you think, you can get away with just a fine ? the system you imagine will work for you yourself, but never under a label, because you have competors, who will not accept, that they should stay honest and you only risk a fine 20 or even 80% of your net gain by cheating. so most important question: what's your idea of the fine ???? 1000 $, 10% of your annual income, 1/2 year of a selling ban (who will control the last two things?) ???. and to whom do you PAY the fine ?? >the organic tax is a rip off. stay away from from it, but also don't use the advantage of the label as consumers understand it... every other thing is a free ride on a train the others pay for.. > I know I am organic what did i get ..... YOU know, but that's your personal business. eat your own food, be content with your own pure fruits, but don't expect me to believe, what you know... you certainly would convince some dear friends, who know you're an honest guy, but do not believe (or know), that i from the village nearby am going to trust you automatically. that's exactly the problem with the word "organic". to everyone it has a different meaning. 8 years ago we made an analysis on food bought a) under certified labels and b) bought under the non-regulated name "organic". while a) was almost! free of pesticide residues, b) had about one third the levels of chemical residues of conventional farmers. evidently one third of the uncertified "organics" cheated consumer's assumption of what they understood by "organic". so if you think, you can have your way without certification, that's ok (i'm against obligatory certification for anyone, who uses the name organic), but don't ride the same train, others pay for by certification. it's what i wrote long ago: if organic growers will not find an agreement on what "biologic", "organic", "natural", "bio-dynamic" really means for ALL, who use these labels, you will VERY SOON run into trouble of not being able to explain for what reasons i should prefer your products. time will show the wiser and in my opinion it will largely depend on how trustworthy you are on EVERY INDIVIDUAL consumer. but anonymously selling your products won't work.... at least not here in europe. i checked it: for more than 10 years we had a MAJOR food scandal at least every 3 months !! trust from the consumers to an anonymous producer ? forget it !!! klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 08:55:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06456 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21081 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:34:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21071 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.169] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:31:25 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:30:23 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <10312.991103@acnet.net> To: "Klaus Wiegand" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: Proposed organic cost share program In-reply-To: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> References: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 Dear Klaus, With all due respect, your comments are strictly hypothetical and only complicate a practical concrete situation that has existed for some time between Sal and the buyers / consumers of his products. While legal penalties and appropriate remedies for consumer fraud are certainly subject to debate in a public forum, the relationship between grower and his customers should NOT be open to such Governmental intervention (or theoretical posturing) without a demonstrably reasonable basis in fact. What is at issue here is the proper role of government in the matter of organic certification, which has failed to differentiate between "organic" (as defined by law*, in terms of the materials and procedures used), and "certified organic" which defines* the role of certification organizations and their services (and thank you Larry for reminding me of that important distinction that we had emphasized back in 1997). This is an important distinction and should NOT be glossed over. * Once accomplished As for the rest of the philosophical end of it, I've got a few practical issues of my own to face and can't promise to engage in much further discussion of this thread at present. (Incidentally Klaus, I've agreed with many of your informative posts). Douglas Hinds Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 4:56:00 AM, you wrote: KW> hello sal, >>taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >>set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks >>if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the >>inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy >>calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off >>taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >>set the standards and fine those that break the law not the >>honest folks if you come and inspect me and i am telling the >>truth u pay for the inspection if I am lying I pay and get a >>fine. easy KW> no, sal. it's not that easy ! let me speak as a consumer, not as KW> a public consultant (yes, from time to time i also consume and KW> stop analysing and consulting). KW> you won't get away with that so simple. in case you acted against KW> organic rules i believed your statements and you cheated me ! the KW> usual result of a consumer would be: stay away from you FOREVER KW> and try his luck elsewhere. your idea is: just pay a fine and KW> then you are allowed a second try of cheating me. fool me once, KW> shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. why do you think, you can KW> get away with just a fine ? the system you imagine will work for you KW> yourself, but never under a label, because you have competors, who KW> will not accept, that they should stay honest and you only risk a KW> fine 20 or even 80% of your net gain by cheating. KW> so most important question: KW> what's your idea of the fine ???? 1000 $, 10% of your annual KW> income, 1/2 year of a selling ban (who will control the last KW> two things?) ???. and to whom do you PAY the fine ?? >>the organic tax is a rip off. KW> stay away from from it, but also don't use the advantage of the KW> label as consumers understand it... every other thing is a free ride KW> on a train the others pay for.. >> I know I am organic what did i get ..... KW> YOU know, but that's your personal business. eat your own food, KW> be content with your own pure fruits, but don't expect me to KW> believe, what you know... you certainly would convince some dear KW> friends, who know you're an honest guy, but do not believe (or KW> know), that i from the village nearby am going to trust you KW> automatically. KW> that's exactly the problem with the word "organic". to everyone KW> it has a different meaning. 8 years ago we made an analysis on KW> food bought a) under certified labels and b) bought under the KW> non-regulated name "organic". while a) was almost! free of KW> pesticide residues, b) had about one third the levels of chemical KW> residues of conventional farmers. evidently one third of the KW> uncertified "organics" cheated consumer's assumption of what they KW> understood by "organic". KW> so if you think, you can have your way without certification, KW> that's ok (i'm against obligatory certification for anyone, who KW> uses the name organic), but don't ride the same train, others pay KW> for by certification. it's what i wrote long ago: if organic KW> growers will not find an agreement on what "biologic", "organic", KW> "natural", "bio-dynamic" really means for ALL, who use these KW> labels, you will VERY SOON run into trouble of not being able to KW> explain for what reasons i should prefer your products. KW> time will show the wiser and in my opinion it KW> will largely depend on how trustworthy you are on EVERY INDIVIDUAL KW> consumer. but anonymously selling your products won't work.... KW> at least not here in europe. i checked it: for more than 10 years KW> we had a MAJOR food scandal at least every 3 months !! KW> trust from the consumers to an anonymous producer ? forget it !!! KW> klaus KW> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command KW> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command KW> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". KW> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command KW> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". KW> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: KW> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 08:55:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06460 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21137 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:34:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21115 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.169] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:31:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:30:58 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <18313.991103@acnet.net> To: "Klaus Wiegand" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: Proposed organic cost share program In-reply-To: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> References: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 Dear Klaus, With all due respect, your comments are strictly hypothetical and only complicate a practical concrete situation that has existed for some time between Sal and the buyers / consumers of his products. While legal penalties and appropriate remedies for consumer fraud are certainly subject to debate in a public forum, the relationship between grower and his customers should NOT be open to such Governmental intervention (or theoretical posturing) without a demonstrably reasonable basis in fact. What is at issue here is the proper role of government in the matter of organic certification, which has failed to differentiate between "organic" (as defined by law*, in terms of the materials and procedures used), and "certified organic" which defines* the role of certification organizations and their services (and thank you Larry for reminding me of that important distinction that we had emphasized back in 1997). This is an important distinction and should NOT be glossed over. * Once accomplished As for the rest of the philosophical end of it, I've got a few practical issues of my own to face and can't promise to engage in much further discussion of this thread at present. (Incidentally Klaus, I've agreed with many of your informative posts). Douglas Hinds Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 4:56:00 AM, you wrote: KW> hello sal, >>taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >>set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks >>if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the >>inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy >>calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off >>taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off >>set the standards and fine those that break the law not the >>honest folks if you come and inspect me and i am telling the >>truth u pay for the inspection if I am lying I pay and get a >>fine. easy KW> no, sal. it's not that easy ! let me speak as a consumer, not as KW> a public consultant (yes, from time to time i also consume and KW> stop analysing and consulting). KW> you won't get away with that so simple. in case you acted against KW> organic rules i believed your statements and you cheated me ! the KW> usual result of a consumer would be: stay away from you FOREVER KW> and try his luck elsewhere. your idea is: just pay a fine and KW> then you are allowed a second try of cheating me. fool me once, KW> shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. why do you think, you can KW> get away with just a fine ? the system you imagine will work for you KW> yourself, but never under a label, because you have competors, who KW> will not accept, that they should stay honest and you only risk a KW> fine 20 or even 80% of your net gain by cheating. KW> so most important question: KW> what's your idea of the fine ???? 1000 $, 10% of your annual KW> income, 1/2 year of a selling ban (who will control the last KW> two things?) ???. and to whom do you PAY the fine ?? >>the organic tax is a rip off. KW> stay away from from it, but also don't use the advantage of the KW> label as consumers understand it... every other thing is a free ride KW> on a train the others pay for.. >> I know I am organic what did i get ..... KW> YOU know, but that's your personal business. eat your own food, KW> be content with your own pure fruits, but don't expect me to KW> believe, what you know... you certainly would convince some dear KW> friends, who know you're an honest guy, but do not believe (or KW> know), that i from the village nearby am going to trust you KW> automatically. KW> that's exactly the problem with the word "organic". to everyone KW> it has a different meaning. 8 years ago we made an analysis on KW> food bought a) under certified labels and b) bought under the KW> non-regulated name "organic". while a) was almost! free of KW> pesticide residues, b) had about one third the levels of chemical KW> residues of conventional farmers. evidently one third of the KW> uncertified "organics" cheated consumer's assumption of what they KW> understood by "organic". KW> so if you think, you can have your way without certification, KW> that's ok (i'm against obligatory certification for anyone, who KW> uses the name organic), but don't ride the same train, others pay KW> for by certification. it's what i wrote long ago: if organic KW> growers will not find an agreement on what "biologic", "organic", KW> "natural", "bio-dynamic" really means for ALL, who use these KW> labels, you will VERY SOON run into trouble of not being able to KW> explain for what reasons i should prefer your products. KW> time will show the wiser and in my opinion it KW> will largely depend on how trustworthy you are on EVERY INDIVIDUAL KW> consumer. but anonymously selling your products won't work.... KW> at least not here in europe. i checked it: for more than 10 years KW> we had a MAJOR food scandal at least every 3 months !! KW> trust from the consumers to an anonymous producer ? forget it !!! KW> klaus KW> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command KW> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command KW> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". KW> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command KW> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". KW> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: KW> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 10:03:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08119 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25058 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:39:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24925 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-117.rain.org [198.68.144.117]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D42856174F; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:37:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001e01bf2609$02775780$759044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , References: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Subject: Re: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Venting and Stressing! Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:37:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Wiegand To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 2:56 AM Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program > hello sal, > > >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > >set the standards and fine those that break the law not the honest folks > >if you come and inspect me and i am telling the truth u pay for the > >inspection if I am lying I pay and get a fine . easy > > >calling a small farm $5000 is a rip off > >taking money from folks because they grow organic is a rip off > >set the standards and fine those that break the law not the > >honest folks if you come and inspect me and i am telling the > >truth u pay for the inspection if I am lying I pay and get a > >fine. easy > > > no, sal. it's not that easy ! let me speak as a consumer, not as > a public consultant (yes, from time to time i also consume and > stop analysing and consulting). > > you won't get away with that so simple. in case you acted against > organic rules i believed your statements and you cheated me ! the > usual result of a consumer would be: stay away from you FOREVER > and try his luck elsewhere. your idea is: just pay a fine and > then you are allowed a second try of cheating me. fool me once, > shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. why do you think, you can > get away with just a fine ? the system you imagine will work for you > yourself, but never under a label, because you have competors, who > will not accept, that they should stay honest and you only risk a > fine 20 or even 80% of your net gain by cheating. I never acted against any rules you have not been cheated it is me that is getting cheated who is watching out for me where is protection the honest organic grower from this witchhunt from this organic rip-off from high fees and powertripers . when did I act against organic rules what u talking about I have been inspected for 15 years and passed every time I have paid of many folks every dime they asked for what the heck are u talking about. > so most important question: > what's your idea of the fine ???? 1000 $, 10% of your annual > income, 1/2 year of a selling ban (who will control the last > two things?) ???. and to whom do you PAY the fine ?? .> >the organic tax is a rip off. . this whole thing is turning into a witch hunt. let me tell u some stories. true stories. once a chemical farmer came to inspect me and he charged me 4 time more than anyone else he drove down from SF and I paid for the gas he stay in a motel and I paid for it and he charged me for this and for that and he lied to me and I can go on and on about this jerk. anyway to make a long story short you can't blame him because the money he makes depends on how much he can squeeze out of me. where is my protection another story the state of Ca. ag girl inspected me the same week that the certifier inspected me two inspections the same week. the state of Ca. AG is the biggest witchhunt of all . one year they said you are not organic because u did not put the variety of the fruit u sold was that anna apple or pearman or was that a white or a booth no verity on the paper no registration and no registration mean your not organic. once they said your not organic because you did not put the state registration number of the person you sold too on the paper so your not organic because you don't have his number . to top it all off last year I sent my hard earned money into the state and the paper work and they did not send me my registration number for 10 months. if you call up there they said Sals registration expired yet they then sent it to me one month before I had to pay them again. its is a organic growers witch hunt. they give us bull like it just depends on what your idea of is is. it is not if your organic it is a witch hunt. the state ag man makes his bones by how many organic growers he can nail to the cross. this whole thing is a dog pile on the organic grower and is a bullshit witchhunt. you don't even know the bullshit you have to go through . every year year after year you have the army of folks trying to get u and you have done nothing wrong. and I go through that over and over year after year and it is getting old. once they said you not organic because you did not fill out the unit column right and our computers could not handle it. so the computer is down Im not organic any more. you folks that buy organic food have no idea what hops we have to jump through and what evil sprits we have to put up with. it is a witchhunt every year. its not about organic its about making your bones building a reputation on the killing off of organic growers. where is my protection from powertripers that can ruin my life . i could be a little more organic and it would make no difference because that is not what this is about. the question asked have little to do with if your organic or not. its a power trip why did not I get my registration for 10 months because they have the power that's why. they can just not send it. and you can't do nothing. its not about if you are organic it about power slavemaster extortion and most of all its about letting evil in the gate and on your land and in your life. you have to pay them because your not chemicals and your not using herbicides or GMO yet those that do don't pay . they all want to show you how much power they got and you can do nothing but take it . non funded state and fed. mandates ripping off honest business folks and making it imposable for the poor man to live. > stay away from from it, but also don't use the advantage of the > label as consumers understand it... every other thing is a free ride > on a train the others pay for.. I have not had a free ride I pay and pay and pay year after year and I put u with their wickedness and I let folks with that spirit of we are going to get u on my land. who needs that spirit of wickedness around me. > > I know I am organic what did i get ..... > > YOU know, but that's your personal business. eat your own food, > be content with your own pure fruits, but don't expect me to > believe, what you know... you certainly would convince some dear > friends, who know you're an honest guy, but do not believe (or > know), that i from the village nearby am going to trust you > automatically. that bull about if you don't have anything to hide why not let a army of folks screw with u well I thought that too but u see you can be a little more organic it would make no different because this is not about organic it is a witchhunt. I thought at one time so what let them come and check me out but now I see they can not give you your registration just because they want to show you how much power they have. > that's exactly the problem with the word "organic". to everyone > it has a different meaning. 8 years ago we made an analysis on > food bought a) under certified labels and b) bought under the > non-regulated name "organic". while a) was almost! free of > pesticide residues, b) had about one third the levels of chemical > residues of conventional farmers. evidently one third of the > uncertified "organics" cheated consumer's assumption of what they > understood by "organic". sorry you are out of it folks know what organic is I have been paying to be certified organic for 15 years folks understand what organic is you are so out of it you want to oppress the organic grower and tax him and it has nothing to do with if you are organic or not. its a witch hunt . > so if you think, you can have your way without certification, > that's ok (i'm against obligatory certification for anyone, who > uses the name organic), but don't ride the same train, others pay > for by certification. it's what i wrote long ago: if organic > growers will not find an agreement on what "biologic", "organic", > "natural", "bio-dynamic" really means for ALL, who use these > labels, you will VERY SOON run into trouble of not being able to > explain for what reasons i should prefer your products. If you can't find a reason to buy my product thats your problem. this is just a witch hunt . it is a non funded fed. and state mandate who gets it funds but bleeding the turnips. what is this all about. laying the burden of this bureaucratic nightmare on the backs of the organic grower. time will show who the wiser is and you can just eat the paper. > time will show the wiser and in my opinion it > will largely depend on how trustworthy you are on EVERY INDIVIDUAL > consumer. but anonymously selling your products won't work.... > at least not here in europe. i checked it: for more than 10 years > we had a MAJOR food scandal at least every 3 months !! > trust from the consumers to an anonymous producer ? forget it !!! > > > klaus where is the protection for the organic grower. there is non any one of a army of folks can screw you up and you have no no protection. if the state of Ca. does not want to send you the registration for 10 months and tells every one it has expired and you are not organic and they don't need a reason . its a power trip they make their bones by nailing organic growers and it is a big witch and getting worse every day. it just depends on what your definition of is is. I don't deserve this kind of treatment just for growing organic. I got two words for you and one of the is OFF. where is my protection? > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 10:41:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09168 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11325 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:14:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11295 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.224.156.124] (216-224-155-125.stk.jps.net [216.224.155.125]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA09374 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:12:27 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:08:29 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Maybe the third time's the charm. I'm receiving mail from the list but my replies are bouncing back. M- Bart, I'm afraid I must agree with Sal. Our farm has been known as Full Circle Organic Farm since before any of this certification business got started on the state (CA) or federal level. We use the word in our name to indicate how we treat our plnats and soil as opposed to the conventional folks around here. We "were organic when organic wasn't cool." I have no need or desire to ship grain, beans, or produce all over the world - the real genesis of the federal regs - I don't even have a need or desire to truck my produce two counties away. My personal belief is that sustainable, organic growing is about local distribution of locally grown products with local inputs, as much as humanly possible, put back into the soil. I've detailed the enormous cost of certification for us both on this list and to the national committee so I won't rehash it here. But there is also the matter of principle involved. I should not be forced to change the name of my farm after all these years simply so someone else can have rules allowing them to sell in interstate and international commerce. Nor should I have to pay for the privilege of keeping the name. Organic was an ecological, soil-saving/building, non-chemical paradigm long before it was co-opted as a marketing word. Kosher was a religious paradigm long before it became a marketing word. Neither needed "certification" until they were used to sell products outside the local community. Marcie Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 11:18:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10220 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02703 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:51:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1403.mail.yahoo.com (web1403.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.167]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02642 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:51:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991103155623.27860.rocketmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.25.55] by web1403.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 07:56:23 PST Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:56:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: Y2K Downplay & Public Health Risk To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 November 2, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net PUBLIC ADVISED TO RESEARCH RISK MANAGEMENT PLANS AND EXECUTIVE SUMMARIES FOR CHEMICAL PLANTS IN THEIR CITIES - DATABASE PROVIDES IMMEDIATE ACCESS Just after midnight on December 3, 1984, a pesticide plant in Bhopal, India accidentally released approximately 40 metric tons of methyl isocyanate into the atmosphere. The incident was a catastrophe for Bhopal with an estimated 2000 casualties, 100,000 injuries, and significant damage to livestock and crops. The long-term health effects from such an incident are difficult to evaluate; the International Medical Commission on Bhopal estimated that as of 1994 upwards of 50,000 people remained partially or totally disabled.... U.S. SENATE SPECIAL COMMITTEE URGES FEMA & EPA TO HELP PREPARE COMMUNITIES On October 21, 1999, The U.S. Senate Special Committee for the Year 2000 technology Problem released a report prepared by the Texas Engineering Experiment Station's (TEES) Mary Kay O'Connor Process Safety Center headquartered at Texas A&M University in College Station. Its results include the following: * 86.5 percent of firms surveyed are not currently prepared for Y2K. * 85.6 percent have not coordinated emergency plans with local/community officials. A majority have not linked contingency planning to community emergency services such as police, fire and rescue, or hospitals. * 79 percent said they had never before been surveyed about Y2K preparedness. * A majority of respondents do not belong to industry organizations or trade associations, which have been the primary gatherers of Y2K preparedness information in the private sector. * 4.1 percent said Y2K presents A potential for a catastrophic event. An estimated 85 million Americans live within five miles of one of the 66,000 sites that handle hazardous chemicals. CITIZENS URGED TO REVIEW RISK MANAGEMENT PLANS AND EXECUTIVE SUMMARIES FOR CHEMICAL PLANTS IN THEIR CITIES RTK NET was started in 1989 in support of the Emergency Planning and Community Right to Know Act (EPCRA), which mandated public access to the Toxic Release Inventory. It is operated by two nonprofit organizations-- OMB Watch and The Unison Institute--and funded by various government agencies and foundations. Under the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, certain chemical facilities must report risk management plans (RMPs) to prevent and respond to chemical accidents in the United States. The RTK NET database provides access to the RMP Executive Summaries for facilities in most states. Each facility's Plan must include: A worst-case chemical release and more-likely "alternative release" scenario, Information about chemical accidents that have occurred in the last five years, An accident prevention program, An emergency response plan, identifying information about the facility, including its location, address and contact information, and an Executive Summary that summarizes the plan and allows the company reporting the data to characterize the information in the RMP. The Risk Management Plan program is being run by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Chemical Emergency Prevention and Preparedness Office (CEPPO). CEPPO has provided a great deal of information online about the RMP program, including links to laws and regulations, guidance documents and other materials. To access to the RTK NET database, reports and links to the U.S. Chemical and Hazard Safety Investigation Board visit the Humanitarian Resource Institute Global Y2K Infrastructure Risks Web Site at: http://www.humanitarian.net/y2keconomic.html COMMUNITY & FAMILY PREPAREDNESS Humanitarian Resource Institute in cooperation with the FEMA Community & Family Preparedness Program has constructed a one stop Community & Family Preparedness resource guide on the internet. Included on this web site is the Preparedness Guide for Chemical Emergencies which was produced by the National Disaster Education Coalition: AmericanRed Cross,FEMA, IAEM, IBHS, NFPA, NWS, USDA/CSREES, and USGS. Topics Include: * Why Talk About Chemical Emergencies? * What Is a Home Chemical Emergency, and a Major * Chemical Emergency? * Awareness Information * Preventing Chemical Emergencies in the Home * What to Do During a Home Chemical Emergency * Plan for Major Chemical Emergencies * Media and Communicate Education Ideas * What to Do During a Major Chemical Emergency * What to Do if You Are at the Scene of a Chemical Accident * How to Shelter-in-Place * Evacuation During a Chemical Emergency * What to Do After a Major Chemical Emergency The Community & Family Preparedness Resource Guide can be found at: http://www.humanitarian.net/prepare.html ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 11:57:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11205 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19423 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:29:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19404 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:29:13 -0500 (EST) From: SustainAg@aol.com Received: from SustainAg@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 7LJDa21033 (4391) for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:26:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.7999e84e.2551bc43@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:26:43 EST Subject: GMOs and FIFRA To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 Throwing this out there for discussion.... How are GMOs currently regulated? Could those GMOs created for pest control measures, including the Round-Up Ready varieties even though their resistance is to an herbicide, be regulated under FIFRA? Though a highly imperfect solution, if they could be listed under FIFRA they would fall under the provisions of the act including labeling, certification for application (planting and management?), record keeping, and GMO drift could be treated, perhaps, as an off-target application and subject to fines. Also under FIFRA, states can require more stringent restrictions than those approved at the federal level which would mean grassroots at the state and regional level could potentially have an impact within their locale by rallying support for greater state restrictions. The obvious downside is what I mentioned previously--it is an imperfect solution largely because the penalties under FIFRA are so weak, and because stringent and effective enforcement of the provisions of the act is spotty. Also, temporary measures such as this (I personally feel that GMOs need their own regulatory act on the order of the Clean Water Act or Clean Air Act given their potential impact on the environment and society) tend to become permanent solutions. Chris Campany Baton Rouge, LA sustainag@aol.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 12:03:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11362 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA26731 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:39:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us (kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us [162.114.136.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26721 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:38:54 -0500 (EST) From: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Received: by kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:39:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: The word "organic," a right? Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:26:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 I have watching this discussion for several days - ready to wade in. We have been growing organically since 1974 - again since before organic was 'cool'. We grow this way because for us, it is the only sane way to grow food. We sell at the local Farmers' Market. It is in a city of about 50,000, which is also the "market" city for all the counties around. If I had to put a number to the customers that buy from us because we are organic, it might be 5% of our customers. We do not get any premium - if we put our prices above the rest of the vendors (many of which are resellers, not farmers), we'd come home with our produce. We are organic because we believe in it, not for any premium. We are also certified. Mostly because the state of Kentucky has a program that is cheap ($10.00/year). We have been certified since 1991, when the program began - farm 28 to do so. Most of the farms that were certified in 1991, are no longer growing organic produce. It is so difficult to make a living growing produce on a small and sane scale. We have beef, lamb, cut flowers, potted perennials and an outside income to be able to stay on the farm. When the USDA, in 1997, asked for input on whether the word organic(or any phrase implying that the product was grown without ag chemicals, in a sane manner, etc) should be allowed only from certified organic producers, we got worried. Depending upon what the certification costs became under federal labeling, certification may or may not be economically feasible for our operation. I wrote a strong letter to the Department urging that it not happen. As long as we are in a local selling situation, our customers will certify us. However, that said, there are large producers that need to sell food outside their local area. Even for us, we'd probably make more money selling wholesale to the nearest large city than we do retailing locally. For those sales, some sort of certification is necessary so the customers, whether stores or wholesale brokers, know what they are buying. It may well be a necessary evil for those wanting to sell organic produce outside a local buying area - especially overseas. There has to be some kind of commonality. Yes, there will be people cheating - it seems to be part of the human condition. Yes, there will be too much bureaucracy - there always is. And, yes, it may put a lot of small operators in a bind. For us, we'll wait and see. Maybe our state will retain some sort of program under the federal regs. Maybe we'll just have to grow more cut flowers and perennials (which are a lot more profitable) and less food - which most Americans don't appreciate anyway. We hope we'll still be able to say "we grow all our food organically" without being certified. If not, well, maybe it won't make much difference in our sales, and we'll still farm organically because, for us, it is the only sane way to steward our land. Paul and Alison Wiediger Au Naturel Farm Smiths Grove, KY To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 13:08:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12548 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22293 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:29:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22279 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:29:31 -0500 (EST) From: LiseVM@aol.com Received: from LiseVM@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 7WNNa09316 (3991); Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:27:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.179bc300.2551ca67@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:27:03 EST Subject: full spectrum lights for barn question To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: monaghan@brandeis.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 Hi, I just have a quick question about light bulbs in the barn. Do any of you use the full spectrum lights which are supposed to imitate daylight in your barns? Because of where our farm is located, it gets dark here early and we like to leave the lights on in the barn for the cows. The recommended amount of light per day that I have been told cows need is 18. The kind of lights I am talking about are the ones they recommend for humans to use in the winter that suffer from daylight deprivation. I was wondering if they made any for barns (tubes or bulbs) and where I could get them. If anyone has any information on these lights I would appreciate a reply. Of course, if you've tried them and found positives or negatives I would love to hear from you. thank you, Lise Monaghan LiseVM@aol To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 14:49:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15135 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20182 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:16:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20157 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.195 (mx3-52.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.195]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26899; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:14:45 -0600 Message-ID: <38208D54.182E@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:30:28 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: The word "organic" a right? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Sal, Bart, Klaus, Paul and Alison, and others who have contributed to this thread: You’ve made for riveting reading for me, and others, I’m certain. Sal and the farmers have stated their case with the same passion that they farm. They/I/we/ produce the best foods on the market and we are looked upon to bear additional costs when outside and neutral entities like government, certifying agencies and even consumer groups feel the need to certify, standardize our products. Bart and Klaus have risked our wrath by saying that standardization, certification are necessary evils in the world they/I/we live and work in that demands some sense of uniformity for the consumer and to a lesser extent, for government and certifying agencies. This discussion needs to be taken to the consumer because they now have only the foggiest sense of how complex our work and lives are. Bring people to the sanet archives or post a summary of this discussion elsewhere. In my opinion, this is uncanned and unlabeled, very powerful education. It’s too important for our limited group even as we seem to deal with each other in stereotype. Allison and Paul, and Sal indicated that their customer contacts are one on one. (Have you seen Sal’s web site, my web site, and our attempts to go beyond the face to face relationship?) Bart and Klaus, do you have web sites? Will you add your site addresses to your signatures if they’re not already there? Your customers need to know this. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 15:35:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16343 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10720 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10654 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15176; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12184; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:50:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Klaus Wiegand cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program In-Reply-To: <90D87A41F3@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Klaus Wiegand wrote: > > I know I am organic what did i get ..... > > YOU know, but that's your personal business. eat your own food, > be content with your own pure fruits, but don't expect me to > believe, what you know... you certainly would convince some dear > friends, who know you're an honest guy, but do not believe (or > know), that i from the village nearby am going to trust you > automatically. What a hard, cold attitude. You're throwing the whole Fertile Crescent concept out the window - and the process of consumers getting to know the farmers in their area, those they buy food from, how they farm, how they grow their crops, livestock, how they manage their farmland, treat their animals, and so on. You go into a store, you see products on the shelf from a farmer you've never heard of; the store tells you who he is and how to get in touch with him, you follow up and make your own decision as to whether his products are as he says they are or if he makes no statement aboout his products you find out for yourself how they are produced by asking him or going to his farm to see exactly how he runs his operation. Those with farms too far away for you to visit can, in order to market successfully in your town, can, voluntarily, simply pay to have his farm certified by the agency he chooses. If he picks an agency lacking in skills and credibility he looses, if he picks one that is good, and the store he wants to market through endorses this agency, he wins, the store wins and the customer wins. A win-win-win situation. Read Edwards Deming about win-win business deals. > that's exactly the problem with the word "organic".to everyone > it has a different meaning. 8 years ago we made an analysis on That's not a "problem", its human nature and individual choice. Here you, again, open the door to competition in the true spirit of free enterprise, between competing farmers and competing certification agencies and between competing, discerning stores. What is organic? Let the government define, it based on input from the cream of the expertise in the organic industry, so as to provide everyone with a minimum standard to follow and abide by. > so if you think, you can have your way without certification, > that's ok (i'm against obligatory certification for anyone, who Amen. > uses the name organic), but don't ride the same train, others pay > for by certification. it's what i wrote long ago: if organic Customers and store owners are fully capable of deciding which growers are providing a good product, the rest will fall by the wayside if they cheat, its that simple. > growers will not find an agreement on what "biologic", "organic", > "natural", "bio-dynamic" really means for ALL, who use these Sure they will. > labels, you will VERY SOON run into trouble of not being able to > explain for what reasons i should prefer your products. That should not be a problem for any grower, any credible grower, that is. > time will show the wiser and in my opinion it > will largely depend on how trustworthy you are on EVERY INDIVIDUAL > consumer. Absolutely true. > but anonymously selling your products won't work.... Voluntary certification will take care of that problem. Competition between growers and competition between certifiers will ensure that all participants maintain high standards of production and certification and will ensure that all comply with the minimum government standards. > at least not here in europe. i checked it: for more than 10 years > we had a MAJOR food scandal at least every 3 months !! > trust from the consumers to an anonymous producer ? forget it !!! That's an isolated example and mere scare tactics. Most people involved in the organic food industry are better than that and those are who you need to rely on to make the system work so that consumers will have access to high quality, affordably priced, naturally grown food. LL Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 15:59:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16896 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23299 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23256 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15811; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12681; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:14:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:14:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Marcie Rosenzweig cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: The word "organic," a right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Marcie Rosenzweig wrote: > I'm afraid I must agree with Sal. Good decision. > Our farm has been known as Full Circle Organic Farm since before any of > this certification business got started on the state (CA) or federal level. > We use the word in our name to indicate how we treat our plnats and soil as > opposed to the conventional folks around here. We "were organic when > organic wasn't > cool." > > I have no need or desire to ship grain, beans, or produce all over the > world - the real genesis of the federal regs - I don't even have a need or > desire to truck my produce two counties away. > My personal belief is that > sustainable, organic growing is about local distribution of locally grown > products with local inputs, as much as humanly possible, put back into the > soil. A very special Amen to that statement!. > I've detailed the enormous cost of certification for us both on this list > and to the national committee so I won't rehash it here. But there is also > the matter of principle involved. I should not be forced to change the > name of my farm after all these years simply so someone else can have rules > allowing them to sell in interstate and international commerce. Nor should > I have to pay for the privilege of keeping the name. Good heavens, I had overlooked that impact on existing organic farms from the mandatory certification debacle. I don't seem to remember anything about federal compensation of farmers for loss of business resulting from having to change the name of their business, much less some other competing, "certified" farm snatching up their name and making hay off the years of work and reputation building by the farmer who lost his business name because he stood firm and refused to be railroaded by a government-sponsored scheme to rid the nation of good organic small farms in order to help the corporate world market adulterated products to even more unsuspecting consumers. > Organic was an ecological, soil-saving/building, non-chemical paradigm long > before it was co-opted as a marketing word. Kosher was a religious > paradigm long before it became a marketing word. Neither needed > "certification" until they were used to sell products outside the local > community. Voluntary 3rd-party organic certification can do all that is needed for remote marketing of organic products and spare the small organic local grower in the process. Again, its a win-win proposal. How can anyone lose? Except the evil, greedy, non-caring power freaks. LL Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 16:11:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17153 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04887 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:36:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from larry.indy.net (larry.indy.net [199.3.65.253]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04862 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from richmo.indy.net (ip209-183-86-51.ts.indy.net [209.183.86.51]) by larry.indy.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA22930; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:34:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382053B0.7496@indy.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:24:32 +0000 From: Rich Molini Reply-To: richmo@indy.net Organization: OCIA Indiana Chapter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IndyNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Webb, Kevin" CC: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Re: Research on use of local food by institutions References: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953AF8@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 Kevin, Steve Bonney ( sbonney@iquest.net ) has initiated a program in Indianapolis called City Food where his organization , Sustainable Earth, has purchased vacant lots in low income neighborhoods and has established organic gardens run by locals and other volunteers. Unfortunately for you ,or fortunately for us, depending on how you view it, the project is not connected with our major land grant. later, Rich Webb, Kevin wrote: > > Hello- > I'm looking for any leads on work being done to integrate local food (the > more local the better, generally speaking: within the state, produced by > small-scale, sustainable producers) into institutions, particularly public > institutions like universities. Any contacts, informational resources, etc. > sent my way would be greatly appreciated. > > Also curious if anyone has a copy of "A Guide to Starting a Local Food > Project", Based on the Hendrix College Experience. 1991. By Melissa > Beck Yazman. I tried calling the college, but no one I spoke to there was > able to put their hands on it. I would gladly pay for costs of copying and > mailing. > > Many thanks, > Kevin > > -- Rich Molini 2419 East 281st Street Atlanta, Indiana 46031 Phone and Fax 317-984-9600 http://mypage.goplay.com/eiofarm/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 16:12:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17179 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28280 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28228 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16071; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13022; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:27:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:27:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: The word "organic," a right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us wrote: > As long as we are in a local selling situation, our customers will > certify us. There you have it. It is a compliment to your customers that they are discerning enough to appreciate the good job you are doing on your farm and that you are producing a quality product for their benefit and that they know the difference between your product and what is offered in the supermarket. > which most Americans don't appreciate anyway. We hope we'll still be able > to say "we grow all our food organically" without being certified. If not, > well, maybe it won't make much difference in our sales, and we'll still farm > organically because, for us, it is the only sane way to steward our land. Beautifully put. LL Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture /intergarden /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 16:29:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17585 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12605 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:51:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12456 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.228]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 7127000 ; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:49:28 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991103154949.007e4100@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:49:49 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Organic vs. organic In-Reply-To: <199911031954.OAA11211@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Here's a little tangent off the organic thread. I was told recently by a certified organic farmer that she suspects that another certified organic farmer (certified by a different body) has been bad-mouthing her to a retailer she has been selling to for years. She thinks this farmer raised questions about the validity of the certifying body she works with and now the retailer is not buying much from her. This is a retailer she has been selling to for many years and their order has decreased dramatically. I've suggested she talk openly to the retailer and ask what is the reason behind the drop in business (her fear could be unfounded or there could be another explanation; or she may be given an opportunity to defend her certifying agency) but I wonder this: have any other farmers had this problem and if so is it widespread enough to warrant concern? If it does happen a lot will the proposed USDA regs make it less easy for unscrupulous competitors to damage one's business this way? Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 17:28:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18753 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14909 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:52:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from VM1.MCGILL.CA (VM1.McGill.CA [132.206.27.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14838 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by VM1.MCGILL.CA (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via spool with SMTP id 0843 ; Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:05:15 EST Received: from MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (NJE origin MUSICB@MCGILL1) by VM1.MCGILL.CA (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2528; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:05:15 -0500 Message-Id: <02NOV99.22774384.0015.MUSIC@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:05:14 EST From: "John Henning, Eco-Echo, McGill U., Montreal, Ca" To: Cc: Subject: LYON Organic conference X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V5.1.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 Lyon Organic Conference: In Europe and North America, organic agriculture has long enjoyed a favourable image among consumers and more recently, a growing interest among farmers and public institutions. Organic agriculture now confronts growing demand that is driving a rapid enlargement of the market. It is now faced with the prospect of profound technical and organisational changes: the specialisation of production systems, development of new partnerships between producers, their suppliers and the surrounding community. In order to better understand and respond to these changes, the Institute Superior d'Agriculture Rhone Alpes, with the collaboration of INRA, Laval University, and the Jacques Cartier Center have organized a conference to be held in Lyon France December 9. 6,7,8 1999. The conference will include a variety of speakers from North America and Europe. For more information, vist the conference web site: http://www.agrenv.mcgill.ca/AGRECON/france/ or contact Christophe David at: david@isara.fr To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 17:36:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18911 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26400 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:11:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26256 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:14:37 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.184] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A2B75D30258; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 16:09:59 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 22:08:47 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Organic vs. organic Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:49:49 -0500, Mark wrote: >I was told recently by a certified organic farmer that she suspects that >another certified organic farmer (certified by a different body) has been >bad-mouthing her to a retailer she has been selling to for years. She >thinks this farmer raised questions about the validity of the certifying >body she works with and now the retailer is not buying much from her. This >is a retailer she has been selling to for many years and their order has >decreased dramatically. This kind of stuff has gone on for nearly twenty years. That aside, not all organic certification programs are equal. Politically incorrect to say so, but some programs *are* better than others, sometimes a LOT better. It is exasperating for me as an inspector to have a guy I've inspected deservedly be refused certification, only to crop up a couple of months later certified by a weaker program. Certain programs have built their business by being *easy,* and picking up the farms that can't make it with FVO or OCIA. Frankly, the average consumer is a long way from being sophisticated enough that any of this matters --- as long as it says 'organic,' they'll buy it without asking any questions. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 17:42:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18985 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22740 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:04:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22700 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.254.241.221] (term6-29.vta.west.net [205.254.241.221]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D566924B3B for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:01:46 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: colibri@west.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: Query re: Use of fly ash in soil amendment for agriculture, horticulture & forestry Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:01:48 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 Fwd from the Infoterra list: Dear Colleagues, We have received a request from a Research Institution in India regarding the use of fly ash in soil amendment for agricultural, horticultural and forestry development. The Institution is particularly interested in the growth and uptake of micro-nutrients and heavy metals leading to increase in toxicity in the food material. In addition they would like to know whether the fly ash is being used in the developed countries and to what magnitude. Available information material or contact addresses of institutions/universities/individuals should be forwarded to: Mr. V.N. Sharma Principal Research Manager Steel Authority of India Ltd. R & D Centre for Iron & Steel Ranchi-834002, Bihar, India e-mail hdp@rdcis.bih.nic.in or vnsharma55@yahoo.co.uk Thanks a lot for your assistance and regards. Amelia Onyango _________________________________________ Amelia Onyango(Amelia.Onyango@unep.org)Ms| Query Response Assistant | Communications and Public Information | | United Nations Environment Programme | P.O. Box 30552, Nairobi, Kenya | Fax (254-2) 623927 | Tel.(254-2) 623115 | _________________________________________| - message sent by infoterra@cedar.univie.ac.at to signoff from the list, send an email to majordomo@cedar.univie.ac.at the message body should read unsubscribe infoterra your@email.address - To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 18:08:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19367 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13300 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:35:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13282 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.148] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:33:04 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:31:58 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6688.991103@acnet.net> To: Glenn CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: The word "organic" a right? In-reply-To: <38208D54.182E@smallfarms.com> References: <38208D54.182E@smallfarms.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 1:30:28 PM, Glenn said: ... G> This discussion needs to be taken to the consumer The discussion has and always will be with the consumer, in spite of the lame attempts to claim otherwise and co-opt both the innate authority of the author-creator of the product when presenting it, as well as that of the buyer of the product when exercising with his freedom of choice. The issue here hinges on the free exchange of information, as well as the right to earn one's livelihood. Certain groups seem to feel they've got a corner on the truth, and that's a dangerous point of view. All that's required is complete and truthful information, along with a standard (that doesn't even exist yet), the truth in labeling laws that mandate the penalties and the existence of an appropriate forum in which to ventilate disputes, along with mechanisms for making claims. Why "fix" what isn't broken? (All those who would privatize the use of the O word really want is a sure corner on the market, not consistent standards. Why? Read on). Once a definition that's consistent with the principles and tradition of the organic movement (which has always included consumers) has reached a consensus (and this is where the effort should have been made before even attempt to legislate. OFPA seems to have been drawn up by people with little or no juridical experience - as a piece of legislation it's the parody of what a law should be), then and only then will it be relevant to attempt for force compliance with a given standard. OFPA forces open (and and the same time tries to close) the door to a myriad of new "green" labels, while spelling the death of the word organic (but not the organic movement, which simply simply disperse and regroup around new words and differentiated standards - right, just like things are as is), in relation to the use for which it was originally intended. What a circus! (And the past nine years events bear me out). To those who insist on making this happen by obligating certification, I strongly suggest looking for another way to feel important, like producing and and offering an outstanding product (and call it what you damn well please - just don't lie). Douglas Hinds (one of the "others" Glenn referred to) ---------- No soy una monedita de oro, para caerle bien a todos. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 18:21:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19603 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17199 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:45:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-t.missouri.edu [128.206.2.27]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17159 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from missouri.edu ([128.206.61.172]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA1851484 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:42:46 -0600 Message-ID: <3820B9F5.2291F5CD@missouri.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 16:40:53 -0600 From: Mary Hendrickson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Subject: FDA Public Meetings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 I have heard via another list that the FDA public forum on bioengineered foods in Chicago is already full. Washington seems to be filling fast. Supposedly the response has been overwhelming to get into these meetings. Myself, I find that it was announced relatively late (or at least in forums where people should have heard of it), and with relatively limited space. You have until January to get written comments in. Mary To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 19:10:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20302 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01268 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:56:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01149 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.36.12.170] ([216.36.12.170]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08536 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:41:44 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: neva/pesticide.org@mail.pesticide.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:59:34 -0800 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: Neva Hassanein Subject: Changing the Way America Farms Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id SAA01173 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 Friends and Colleagues, I wanted to let you know about the publication of my book on sustainable farming networks (see below). I hope you will find it useful in your own efforts to build a more sustainable agriculture. Regards, Neva Hassanein _____________________________________________________ For more information contact Erika Kuebler Rippeteau (402) 472-5938 >From the University of Nebraska Press CHANGING THE WAY AMERICA FARMS: Knowledge And Community in the Sustainable Agriculture Movement By Neva Hassanein "A strong contribution to the available literature on cooperative farmer groups...The author describes with eloquence the challenges faced by farmers who do not subscribe to the current conventional industrial agriculture paradigm and their difficulty in finding recommendations for improving their systems." -- Charles A. Francis, coeditor of Crop Improvement for Sustainable Agriculture. Changing the Way America Farms traces the manner in which alternative farmers have developed and exchanged their own personal, local knowledge as a basis for moving toward an agricultural system that is ecologically sound, economically viable, and socially just. Neva Hassanein studies the patterns of local and regional networks in Wisconsin that sprang up to disseminate new and viable agricultural methods. She argues that these networks have in many ways become the foundation of the sustainable agriculture movement. Hassanein focuses on two organizations: the Ocooch Grazers Network, a group of dairy farmers who practice intensive rotational grazing, and the Wisconsin Womenís Sustainable Farming Network. The different lived experiences of particular members in each group shaped the ways local knowledge was generated and exchanged. Hassanein considers the broader implications of this kind of local-level, collective activity centered around the creation and exchange of agricultural knowledge. In rejecting the all-knowing expertise characteristic of scientific reports and extension services, network members instead created heterogeneous systems based on the exchange of information among a community of farming practitioners. These informal networks do not completely reject agricultural science, but they do suggest ways of democratizing knowledge production for sustainable agriculture. Neva Hassanein has a doctorate in environmental studies and is currently a program associate for the Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides. Changing the Way America Farms Knowledge and Community in the Sustainable Agriculture Movement By Neva Hassanein Cloth ISBN: 0-8032-7321-5 Cloth Price: $29.95 Features: xiv, 218 pages, 6 x 9 inches, 6 photographs, index * * * * * * * * * * Neva Hassanein, PhD Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides P.O. Box 1393 Eugene, OR 97440-1393 (541) 344-5044, ext. 27 email: neva@pesticide.org For more information about NCAP, visit our World Wide Web site: http://www.pesticide.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 19:20:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20423 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03162 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:57:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01182 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.37]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04370 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.178.207]) by mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <19991103231144.CEFQ3356@worldnet.att.net>; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:11:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3820C086.B0B51395@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:08:54 -0500 From: Samuel Kaymen Reply-To: kaymen@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-WNS2.5 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: amigosearth@mindspring.com, Abby , Abby c/o RILES , Abby Rockefeller , Alan , Alan , Alex Mata , Ananda Kaymen , Angelica Ronnerberg , Beth Holtzman , Bill and Linda , Bill Wolf , Bio Pac , "Birdsall, Mark & Laurie" , Breda Hopkins , Carlos Hernandez , Cheryl & Bob Allenberg , Chilenita <"Chilenita_ _"@hotmail.com>, Chip@worldnet.att.net, Chip SUNWEAVERS , Clare County Library , Constanze vonLaer , Cristobal Ripalda , Daniel Chaij , "Daniel D. 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Ann Clark" , Eileen Lewandowski , Elizabeth Henderson , Emory Black , Erika Lindblom , Flavors , Fred Jawitz , Gary Hirshberg , Daniel Chaij , Daniel Sherrard , Jose Zaglul , Nancy Hirshberg , Therus Kolff , Victor Sanchez , Emory Black , George and Rachel Behm , Geralyn White Dreyfous , Grace Gershuny , Greg Fiske , Hal Hamilton , Hanno Ekdahl , Harry Wells , Helena Dahlblom , Herbert Cole , Ingmari Lewander , James Gardiner , Jane Black , "Jane Black " <"Jane Black , Jason Clay , Jay Vogt , Joe Smille , Johan Lindblom , Jorge Manuel Dengo , Jorgen Hansen , Jose Zaglul , Juan Luna-Kelser , Judd Gregg , Karen Precourt , Karin Eklof-Floge , kate , Kina , "Laura Medalie, Hydrologist, Montpelier, VT" , Lewis Family , Lewis Feldstein , Lori Sandman , Louisa Ransom , Lowell Rheinheimer , "Luna-Kelser, Juan Jorge" , "Majordomo@ghtmail.cr.usgs.gov" , Maria Kaymen , Maria Lindgren , Mark Ritchie , Mary Kopp , masha Pyshkina , Meg Hirshberg , Michael Rozyne , Mike , Mike@worldnet.att.net, Mikey Dillon , Missy Ryan , Monica Karlsson , Nancy Hirshberg , Nancy Mandel , Nancy Voorhis , Nathaniel Holder , Norman Brown <76472.2732@compuserve.com>, "oakmontlabs@cheshire.net" , Organic Wine Company , Beth Holtzman , Harry Wells , James Gardiner , Lori Sandman , Ron Korcak , Steve Gilman , Patricia Hopkinson , Patricia Shattuck , Peter Strugatz <73523.151@compuserve.com>, Rachel Birdsall , Randal Teague , Ray Sterner , Renee Ziesing , Rikard Lewander , Robert Gorham , Robert Knahpe , Ron Korcak , Rubin , "Rubin, Alan" , Samuel Kaymen , "Sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu" , Steve Gilman , Stuart Hill in australia , Sustainable Harvest , Suzanne Judith , The Genealogy Palace , Therus Kolff , Tjejerna , Jorge Manuel Dengo , Geralyn White Dreyfous , Jason Clay , Jose Zaglul , Norman Brown <76472.2732@compuserve.com>, Randal Teague , Therus Kolff , Victor Sanchez , "Jane Black " <"Jane Black , "Rubin, Alan" , Rubin , USGS Geologic Division , Victor Sanchez Subject: [Fwd: Cell phone nightmare] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A836FA908DD08BEE2D099E54" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A836FA908DD08BEE2D099E54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Important information for all of us! --------------A836FA908DD08BEE2D099E54 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from lists.essential.org ([216.0.124.17]) by mtiwgwc04.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <19991103221835.CHAA5857@lists.essential.org>; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:18:35 +0000 Received: from venice (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27002; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:56 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: corp-focus-owner@essential.org Reply-To: rob@essential.org Originator: corp-focus@essential.org Sender: corp-focus@essential.org Precedence: bulk From: Robert Weissman To: Multiple recipients of list CORP-FOCUS Subject: Cell phone nightmare MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Please see http://lists.essential.org for help X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Sorry for the delay in sending this out. It appears not to have been delivered the first time it was forwarded to the list. Robert Weissman Essential Information | Internet: rob@essential.org CELL PHONE NIGHTMARE By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Ready for a real scary Halloween story? Remember the Larry King Live show in 1993 on cell phones? David Reynard was the guest. He had filed a lawsuit against NEC, a cell phone operator, and other companies, alleging that his late wife's brain tumor was caused in part by her use of a cell phone. The Reynard's lawsuit was dismissed in 1995, but Reynard's appearance on the show created nationwide concern. At the time, there were 15 million Americans using cell phones. The day after the Larry King Live show, the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association (CTIA) went on the offensive. Industry executives said that there were thousands of studies that proved that wireless phones were safe. In fact, there were no such studies about cell phone safety. But CTIA understood the basic reality of the situation, and so it decided to spend $27 million over the next six years on health studies. They hired George Carlo, figuring he would be a perfect fit. Carlo is a public health scientist, who had a good track record as an industry researcher. Most of his clients over the years have been industry clients, and few have been disappointed with his work. In 1994, Carlo began conducting studies to determine whether cell phones pose a health risk to consumers. Four times a year, Carlo would trudge over from his Dupont Circle office in Washington, D.C. to the offices of CTIA to debrief the CEOs of the major telephone and electronics firms that make up the $40 billion a year mobile phone industry. And things went well, until 1995. In 1995, Carlo found that digital phones were interfering with cardiac pacemakers. "We then conducted about $2.5 million worth of research to quantify that problem, and as a result, I had somewhat of a falling out with the industry," Carlo told us this week. "They didn't like that finding." The industry cut off Carlo's funding. But through a process of negotiation, Carlo got back in. The industry would again fund his studies, but only if he agreed not to research the questions of defibrillators and digital phones, and of cell phones and automobile safety, and he could no longer work on a very extensive program to standardize the methodology for testing whether or not cell phones met industry-defined standards. Carlo said that it took him two months to decide that he needed to continue the work, even under CTIA's conditions, and so he did. What he found may prove to be the cell phone industry's worst nightmare. He found that the risk of acoustic neuroma, a benign tumor of the auditory nerve that is well in range of the radiation coming from a phone's antennae, was 50 percent higher in people who reported using cell phones for six years or more. Moreover, that relationship between the amount of cell phone use and this tumor appeared to follow a dose-response curve. He found that the risk of rare neuro epithelial tumors on the outside of the brain was more than doubled, a statistically significant increase, in cell phone users as compared to people who did not use cell phones. He found that there appeared to be some correlation between brain tumors occurring on the right side of the head and use of the phone on the right side of the head. And, most troubling, he found that laboratory studies looking at the ability of radiation from a phone's antenna to cause functional genetic damage were definitely positive, and were following a dose-response curve. Carlo said that he has repeatedly recommended that the industry take a pro-active, public health approach on the issue, and inform consumers of his findings. He says that he uses a cell phone, but only with a headset. "Alarmingly, indications are that some segments of the industry have ignored the scientific findings suggesting potential health effects, have repeatedly and falsely claimed that wireless phones are safe for all consumers, including children, and have created an illusion of responsible follow up by calling for and supporting more research," Carlo wrote in a letter to top industry CEOs this month. "The most important measures of consumer protection are missing: complete and honest factual information to allow informed judgment by consumers about assumption of risk, the direct tracking and monitoring of what happens to consumers who use wireless phones, and the monitoring of changes in the technology that could impact health." Carlo is also troubled by a recent agreement between Elizabeth Jacobson, the person in charge of cell phone regulation at the Food and Drug Administration, and Thomas Wheeler, executive director of the CTIA. Under the agreement, CTIA will fund the FDA to do additional safety studies. Carlo says that in 1994, Jacobson refused such a cooperative research agreement, because she didn't think she could both collaborate with the industry and regulate it. (Jacobson, through a spokesperson, denies taking this position.) "This arrangement is wrong, plain and simple," Carlo told us. "The FDA's behavior is appalling to me. The FDA seems to be more than willing to jump in bed with the industry. It is a blatantly arrogant attempt to join in a relationship that is a conflict of interest on its face. The reason it has not been criticized is that people don't know about it. Consumers are being left out to dry." The FDA's Russell Owen says that the FDA has not regulated cell phones because "we don't have sufficient evidence to determine that there might be adverse health effects from cell phones." Sorry Mr. Owen, but in this instance, we agree with the industry's guy. (That's a scary thought.) Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of Corporate Predators: The Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1999; http://www.corporatepredators.org) (c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman --------------------------------------------------- Focus on the Corporation is a weekly column written by Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman. Please feel free to forward the column to friends or repost the column on other lists. If you would like to post the column on a web site or publish it in print format, we ask that you first contact us (russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org). Focus on the Corporation is distributed to individuals on the listserve corp-focus@essential.org. To subscribe to corp-focus, send an e-mail message to listproc@essential.org with the following all in one line: subscribe corp-focus (no period). Focus on the Corporation columns are posted at . Postings on corp-focus are limited to the columns. If you would like to comment on the columns, send a message to russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org. --------------A836FA908DD08BEE2D099E54-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 20:07:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21058 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05796 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:50:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from dialup0.macomb.com (IDENT:root@dialup0.macomb.com [199.120.118.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05665 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from macomb.com (208.34.39.212.outfitters.com [208.34.39.212]) by dialup0.macomb.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25874 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:48:36 -0600 Message-ID: <3820D868.F4F88A8@macomb.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:50:48 -0600 From: Kathy Jeffries Reply-To: jeffries@macomb.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SANET Subject: Monsanto and organics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Hi Sanetters I basically cruise this list and pass on the information to others who are not on it. But I just have to put a bit of info on myself. I was invited to a BioTech class that is being sponsored by Monsanto at WIU in IL. So far I bet you are thinking........got a clue to where this is going. I've spoken to a few Ag classes and water resource and management classes on the topics of our water pollution and the mega-livestock facilities. Ths class I sat in on......had an ethics panel to answer questions that the students fielded to them on biotech. And one of the panelist was a rep from Monsanto. The M. rep had a very downplay on organics. I asked to what does he base his opinion on. Reply was something in the effect of the grains (and that is the only aspect of organics that he stressed) is riddled with mycotoxins and the use of the pesticides and herbicides would eliminate this. Now we have a choice of mycotoxin vs. chemicals..........I would chance it with the mycotoxins. Since my way of thinking was in relation to other products that are raised organically. There is not a guarantee that the pesticides and such will eliminate the mycotoxin 100%. And he did not seem concerned that this would create an environmental problem....... Aother topic that predominated the class was about labelling. One student says he has never seen anyone take any notice to labels.....I told him he hasn't been in the store when I am shopping. These students are being pruned into the thought patterns of Monsanto and that the earth concerns are not a part. Monsanto rep seemed to bring out the point of competition and costs, no stress on environment or safety to people. So it shows the $$$$$ reigns. Rep said "Also the organics "trend" is just a way of pushing for higher prices" This is sad because our young people are being guided to have concerns in relation to the $$$ and not to the benefit of people. I came out of this class witn a real sad heart as to what our future is being groomed toward. Kathy Jeffries http://homepages.go.com/~earthprotect To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 21:22:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21876 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07397 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:42:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07360 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11jBtK-00037T-00; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 02:40:42 +0100 Message-ID: <3820E8B6.292D0DCB@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 03:00:22 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jeffries@macomb.com CC: SANET Subject: Re: Monsanto and organics References: <3820D868.F4F88A8@macomb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 I recently checked the 'mycotoxin situation' on organic food(crops) in the Netherlands with the Dutch Health Care officials who perform the checks. They find no difference in the levels of mycotoxins between organic and non-organic foods. This is a great accomplishment by organic agriculture. The Monsanto story is, like al their stories, total b.s. wytze Kathy Jeffries wrote: > Hi Sanetters > I basically cruise this list and pass on the information to others who > are not on it. > But I just have to put a bit of info on myself. > > I was invited to a BioTech class that is being sponsored by Monsanto at > WIU in IL. > So far I bet you are thinking........got a clue to where this is going. > I've spoken to a few Ag classes and water resource and management > classes on the topics of our water pollution and the mega-livestock > facilities. > Ths class I sat in on......had an ethics panel to answer questions that > the students fielded to them on biotech. And one of the panelist was a > rep from Monsanto. > The M. rep had a very downplay on organics. I asked to what does he base > his opinion on. > Reply was something in the effect of the grains (and that is the only > aspect of organics that he stressed) is riddled with mycotoxins and the > use of the pesticides and herbicides would eliminate this. > Now we have a choice of mycotoxin vs. chemicals..........I would chance > it with the mycotoxins. Since my way of thinking was in relation to > other products that are raised organically. There is not a guarantee > that the pesticides and such will eliminate the mycotoxin 100%. And he > did not seem concerned that this would create an environmental > problem....... > Aother topic that predominated the class was about labelling. One > student says he has never seen anyone take any notice to labels.....I > told him he hasn't been in the store when I am shopping. These students > are being pruned into the thought patterns of Monsanto and that the > earth concerns are not a part. Monsanto rep seemed to bring out the > point of competition and costs, no stress on environment or safety to > people. So it shows the $$$$$ reigns. > Rep said "Also the organics "trend" is just a way of pushing for higher > prices" > > This is sad because our young people are being guided to have concerns > in relation to the $$$ and not to the benefit of people. > I came out of this class witn a real sad heart as to what our future is > being groomed toward. > > Kathy Jeffries > http://homepages.go.com/~earthprotect > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 3 21:48:11 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22126 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26966 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:13:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26869 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id JAA20059 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:59:27 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA21283; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:31:32 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911040231.KAA21283@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 04 Nov 99 06:34:43 Subject: Japan - 66% of food companies to go non-GM ? To: rverzola@phil.gn.apc.org Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 I hope there are corn/soya farmers on this list who can learn from this news item. -- Roberto ================================================================== Japan grain-non-GM crops bought with high premiums ------------------------------------------------------------------ JAPAN: November 2, 1999 TOKYO - Japanese have recently bought corn and soybeans grown exclusively from non genetically modified (GM) seeds, at premiums roughly 40-50 percent higher than those for mixed GM and non-GM crops, traders said. Premiums for non-GM, U.S.-grown corn were purchased at premiums of 40-50 cents a bushel more than the cost of genetically mixed varieties. As for soybeans grown in the U.S. states of Indiana, Ohio and Michigan (IOM) that contain higher protein and are suitable for food use, non-GM soybeans were purchased at premiums of 50-60 cents a bushel over unsegregated IOM soybeans. Soybeans for crushing have not been segregated on the basis of genetic origin as Japanese oilseed crushers are exempt from government GMO labelling requirements that take effect in April 2001, traders said. "Japanese food companies will start receiving non-GM corn deliveries from the U.S. this month. The volume of imports (of non-GM U.S. corn to Japan) will likely reach 70,000-80,000 tonnes by the end of this year," said a trader at a grain trading house. "The imports are mainly for use in beer production. Premiums are 50 percent higher (than unsegregated U.S. corn prices)," he added. Soybean traders expect that out of total Japanese demand for food soybeans of 800,000 to one million tonnes in the 1999/2000 year, 500,000-600,000 tonnes will be non-GM varieties. "Japanese are buying non-GM soybeans with high premiums. This will probably be taken as an incentive for U.S. farmers to increase planting of non-GM soybean varieties next year," said a trader at a major Japanese trading house. HIGH COSTS TO BE PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS Non-GM U.S. corn premiums are 43 to 54 percent higher than the current premiums for unsegregated U.S. corn for January-March shipment, which are 93 cents a bushel cost and freight Japan over the March contract on the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), traders said. Non-GM IOM soybean premiums on a c&f Japan basis are 37 to 44 percent higher than premiums for unsegregated IOM soybeans. Premiums for the latter are 135 cents a bushel over CBOT's January contract. The non-GM corn/soybean premiums are for bulk transportation, traders said. Japanese trading houses charge additional premiums if end-users ask them to transport crops in containers or bags so as to reduce the risk of adulteration. During bulk transportation, non-GM crops could become mixed with genetically altered varieties, which could end up accounting for about five percent of the total bulk, traders said. Accord to results published Monday of a survey conducted by Japan's leading economic daily, 66 percent of food companies polled by the paper had decided or were considering switching to non-GM ingredients. Some 43 percent of the companies will pass on the increased purchasing costs, totally or partially, to consumers as higher product prices, according to the survey conducted last month by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun. Some 323 of the 472 companies polled responded to the survey. As for domestic business, Japanese end-users have covered about 20 percent of their corn needs for January-March shipment. In the soybean market end-users are looking for January shipment, but high premiums made them wary of covering their needs quickly. U.S. Gulf-Japan freight rates for Panamax-class vessels were little changed from week-ago levels at $24.50-$25 a tonne for December shipment and $25-$25.50 a tonne for January shipment. Story by Aya Takada REUTERS NEWS SERVICE To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 22:29:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22732 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26879 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:56:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26867 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.249 (mx3-106.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.249]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26164; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:54:27 -0600 Message-ID: <3820F913.45A1@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 17:10:12 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Hinds CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: The word "organic" a right? References: <38208D54.182E@smallfarms.com> <6688.991103@acnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Dear Douglas, The discussion with the consumer is taking place and always has taken place as you said. And the farmers who have consumer contact, I’m guessing, have done a splendid job of cultivating the customer relationship with good sound information. One of the activities I enjoy most at my farm is talking with my customers and sharing with them what we do here that’s beneficial to them, to me and to the pastureland. I have been told that my current farm practices would qualify as “organic” by one of the certifying organizations, and the fee is very attractive. Our current discussion on the subject of organic certification needs to be taken beyond the limits of this list and this group of participants because of the well stated, genuine, and I believe honest perspectives of all the participants. My hunch is that consumers don’t have any idea that we see certification through such different eyes. This issue is complex with many potential winners and losers, and I don’t believe that consumers appreciate this. Please remember that I’m a marketer of small farm and small ranch products also. At small farms.com, we intentionally created a structure for selling by the farmer, where the farmers use their own words to tell consumers what they offer, where the products are available, and how the farmer can be contacted. We fully expect and desire to facilitate customer to farmer contact. I believe smallfarms.com to be the best small farmer / small rancher marketing web site on the internet. We have free registration offers to farmers right now. Most of you know this as I have taken every opportunity to talk about the site. So how come if it’s free and has good features, I still need to promote smallfarms.com? People are busy. They have many, many other concerns, causes, and interests to pursue. If we’re to be successful at informing consumers of the organic certification quagmire we need to ramp up what we’re doing. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 3 23:39:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23731 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11396 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:10:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11390 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:10:47 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.179]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:08:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991103215601.007ec2b0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 21:56:01 -0600 To: Subject: Monsanto and organics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 >Subject: Monsanto and organics >(monsanto's rep.)Reply was something in the effect of the grains (and that is the only >aspect of organics that he stressed) is riddled with mycotoxins and the >use of the pesticides and herbicides would eliminate this. >Now we have a choice of mycotoxin vs. chemicals.......... A few points of correction is needed to this guy's reply. Note the operative word MAY REDUCE in the following ENS excerpt below versus WOULD ELIMINATE in the monsanto reply. Also remember that milk cows can be grass fed as Dr. Clark has so aptly pointed out. >From ENS release at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/oct99/1999L-10-18-09.html "Plant pathologist Gary Munkvold says Bt corn, a hybrid engineered to produce the toxic (toxin from the soil bacterium - It does not product the bacteria itself) soil bacterium Bacillus thurigiensis, may reduce human exposure to toxins from diseases that attack corn. By reducing insect damage to the corn, the Bt toxin also reduces the plant’s susceptibility to fungal plant diseases. These fungi produce mycotoxins and aflatoxins that can be dangerous to humans and livestock, whether they are eaten whole or found in milk from cows consuming contaminated corn." Now from Gary's actual paper at http://www.scisoc.org/feature/BtCorn/Top.html "Fusarium ear rot is the most common ear rot disease in the Corn Belt; it can be found in nearly every cornfield at harvest (Smith and White, 1988). The severity of this disease is usually low, but it can reduce yield and quality. The primary importance of this disease is its association with mycotoxins, particularly the fumonisins. Fumonisins are a group of mycotoxins that can be fatal to horses and pigs, and are probable human carcinogens (Munkvold and Desjardins, 1997). The importance of fumonisins in human health is still a subject of debate, but there is evidence that they have some impact on cancer incidence in some parts of the world (Marasas, 1995)." Note the line "The importance of fumonisins in human health is still a subject of debate..." so this issue is not settled yet either. Looks like somebody is grasping at straws hoping no one will look beyond the headlines. Some Questions. How much of the corn crop is actually used for direct human food consumption anyway? How many seasons will this BT hybrid corn be effective before evolution develops resistant pests? It just might be the real question is which toxins you want to eat with your corn. Mycotoxins or mycotoxins and the BT toxin? Spin, Spin, Spin are you dizzy yet? Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 00:35:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24294 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24786 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:18:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24752 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP327.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.105]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00209; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:16:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38211816.18C446D@sprintmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 00:22:30 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Hinds CC: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Time and the Benefit of BT Corn References: <381E57FB.39BD5F03@sprintmail.com> <240.991102@acnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Douglas Hinds wrote: > No Alex, people who weren't breast fed or who did it for a short time > often feel less integrated and intuitive with nature - they don't > identify with it to the same degree as those that had more mother's > milk do and there was no offense meant nor made so forget the > apology. It was a legitimate question and I'm interested in your > answer. > And if you think there is with you, it's strictly imagined. Look for > another excuse to get belligerent, but do it on your own hook, because > my comment had a basis in fact and I have no idea why you find > anything wrong with it. So, maybe you could enlighten us all and cite the reference to the study that establishes this "fact" to which you refer. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 01:07:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24568 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15401 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:49:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15390 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.26] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:47:03 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:45:40 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8990.991103@acnet.net> To: Alex McGregor CC: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re[2]: Time and the Benefit of BT Corn In-reply-To: <38211816.18C446D@sprintmail.com> References: <38211816.18C446D@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 Hello Alex, Nice to hear from you again. Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 11:22:30 PM, you wrote: AM> Douglas Hinds wrote: >> No Alex, people who weren't breast fed or who did it for a short time >> often feel less integrated and intuitive with nature - they don't >> identify with it to the same degree as those that had more mother's >> milk do and there was no offense meant nor made so forget the >> apology. It was a legitimate question and I'm interested in your >> answer. >> And if you think there is with you, it's strictly imagined. Look for >> another excuse to get belligerent, but do it on your own hook, because >> my comment had a basis in fact and I have no idea why you find >> anything wrong with it. AM> So, maybe you could enlighten us all and cite the reference to the study that AM> establishes this "fact" to which you refer. AM> Alex Personal experience of Douglas M. Hinds, an independent investigator highly recommended by established authorities for his well developed powers for observing and accurately evaluating detailed phenomena. (References provided upon request). After that, I suggest that further concerns related to this thread be performed privately. Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 01:07:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24576 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA16151 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:52:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16061 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.26] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:50:02 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:48:44 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13992.991103@acnet.net> To: Glenn CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: The word "organic" a right? In-reply-To: <3820F913.45A1@smallfarms.com> References: <3820F913.45A1@smallfarms.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 OK Glenn, go for it! Douglas Hinds ------------- Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:10:12 PM, you wrote: G> Dear Douglas, G> The discussion with the consumer is taking place and always has taken G> place as you said. And the farmers who have consumer contact, I’m G> guessing, have done a splendid job of cultivating the customer G> relationship with good sound information. One of the activities I enjoy G> most at my farm is talking with my customers and sharing with them what G> we do here that’s beneficial to them, to me and to the pastureland. I G> have been told that my current farm practices would qualify as “organic” G> by one of the certifying organizations, and the fee is very attractive. G> Our current discussion on the subject of organic certification needs to G> be taken beyond the limits of this list and this group of participants G> because of the well stated, genuine, and I believe honest perspectives G> of all the participants. My hunch is that consumers don’t have any idea G> that we see certification through such different eyes. This issue is G> complex with many potential winners and losers, and I don’t believe that G> consumers appreciate this. G> Please remember that I’m a marketer of small farm and small ranch G> products also. At small farms.com, we intentionally created a structure G> for selling by the farmer, where the farmers use their own words to tell G> consumers what they offer, where the products are available, and how the G> farmer can be contacted. We fully expect and desire to facilitate G> customer to farmer contact. I believe smallfarms.com to be the best G> small farmer / small rancher marketing web site on the internet. We G> have free registration offers to farmers right now. Most of you know G> this as I have taken every opportunity to talk about the site. So how G> come if it’s free and has good features, I still need to promote G> smallfarms.com? G> People are busy. They have many, many other concerns, causes, and G> interests to pursue. If we’re to be successful at informing consumers G> of the organic certification quagmire we need to ramp up what we’re G> doing. G> glenn G> Buy from the Farmer G> http://www.smallfarms.com G> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command G> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command G> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". G> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command G> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". G> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: G> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 04:15:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25862 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 04:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA03990 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:51:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from vugon.vista.ac.za ([196.13.30.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03874 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from acaleph.vista.ac.za (acaleph.vista.ac.za [196.13.2.20]) by vugon.vista.ac.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16370 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:50:10 GMT Received: from FT/SpoolDir by acaleph.vista.ac.za (Mercury 1.21); 4 Nov 99 10:49:15 GMT+2 Received: from SpoolDir by FT (Mercury 1.21); 4 Nov 99 10:47:52 GMT+2 From: "Dr Maggi Linington" Organization: Vista University - Academic To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:47:46 GMT+2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: breast feeding and deeling close to nature In-reply-to: <199911040520.AAA25520@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 Dear Netters, Numerous studies have shown that it is crucial for a baby to be cuddled, especially while feeding. This is despite whether the source of milk is a bottle or a breast. babies are remarkable creatures, especially their ability to learn and interact. Babies who are not cuddled and handled frequently, especially during feeding are known to have a higher potential of being introvert. I have done a lot of study on this since I have a 9 month old adopted baby. If people are specifically interested in the above and want references I can supply them. I have NEVER read anywhere in the last 18 months that bottle fed babies do not have an affinity for nature. If Douglas wants to quote family personalities to "prove" his point then I have the exact opposite in mine a bottle fed who is nature mad and a breast fed who is definitely not. Douglas, please quote references for your allegation, 'cause I for one think that sounds like an old wives tale. On the other hand if it is true I'll include the question of breast or bottle fed in my next job interview Regards Dr MJ Linington HEAD:Department Agricultural Sciences email:lngtn-mj@acaleph.vista.ac.za Snail Mail: Dept. Agricultural Sciences VUDEC, Vista University P/Bag X641, Pretoria, 0001 Tel: 012 322 1303 Fax: 012 322 3243 cell:083 637 0182 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 07:31:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26995 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA08283 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:10:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08178 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18902 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:09:34 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17212 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:10:44 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 4 Nov 99 13:03:03 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 4 Nov 99 13:02:19 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:02:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re[3]: Proposed organic cost share program Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 hello douglas, >It is true that the word "organic" has more than one usage. not only that, it means everything, someone likes to put into it.. >As things now stand, organic foods are those that were produced, >handled and sometimes processed, using methods consistent with >the organic philosophy and tradition. few people would doubt that. but most consumers do NOT know the producer of his food. maybe i'm the deepest sceptical in the whole world and all the trustful people left europe with the mayflower, but trust is earned, but not just given away ! once you're trusted by someone, that one needs no other proof (as long as no competor spreads wrong bads about him, which also happens and not so rarely, and that's something even worse to deal with, because it's like a dagger from behind). BA> The most obvious example of Sal's preferred system --- in which anyone BA> can call themselves whatever they feel like --- is "natural." here in germany it goes even to the extremes with a group of growers, who sell their products as "naturgemaess". a rough translation would be equivalant to "natural". now comes the tricky part. they are sailing under the flag of "organic" (which is also no label, but better known in the public as a GENERAL way of producing and even more of thinking about nature), but they use anything THEY mean it would be natural. some of these natural products: slaugtherhouse byproducts like undigested gastric residues, grinded chicken manure, mined potash salt and phosphorus, arsen, copper, maggots grown on dead english horses for fish-feeding. and all of these products may very well be claimed "natural". (who decides, if mining is a natural method?) during our large residue study we went to local markets and also sold their products. we asked them about them and all you heard from them was "all natural". they are SOO right ! 3 to 4 times a week people call me on the phone and ask me about "organic" food. that's what i have to tell them: there is "organic", "biological", "bio-organic", "bio-dynamic", "natural", "organic-dynamic", "naturgemaess".... once i've reach the 3rd or 4th group and their different definitions, i hear a gasp and a "stop!". >But leave the need for verifying or not verifying that to those >involved in each and every transaction. > The product embodies that state, and this state is something >VERIFIABLE when this is appropriate; that is, when for the demand >for it arises. you know very well, that it's an impossiblity for a single consumer, who has a strong doubt to test the efficiency of a drug or the claim of a pesticide-free food. simply unpayable !! for a simple test for a pesticide you pay 300$, provided you are able to name the effective substance (if you don't, it depends on the experience of the analytic lab to GUESS, what might be used. if you're successful at the 6th try, that makes 1.800 $. if there are 5 people, who have doubts, that makes 9.000$. how uneffective for the whole society..) >The questions Sal raised (and they're good ones) is WHO should >bear the cost of verification and when should that cost be >incurred. The answer is simple. (In reverse order): When >reasonable doubt exists as to the veracity of the claims made, >the cost being born by those that have made false claims when >these have been proved false. after the bse-scandal in england meat could only be sold at a ridiculous price not even worth buying the calf. consumption went down for half a year to 40-50% of the consuption before. not even farmers can be convinced by you, that british farmers or the feeding industry there could be made responsable for the damage. and most of the cheating isn't "big-bang". most of it is done the "smart" way: heat up the gasoline at the gasoline station, add old leathersoles to the feed instead of proteins, put in only 95% of the usual weight in the package, "forget" a vitamin in the mix, used old stuff over the limit-date, selling pse-meat, replacing a natural flavor with a synthetical one, dyeing with roasted malt, the "wonderful" multiplication of yields in "organic" fields... 700 eggs a year from each free- ranging hen... simple example: our analysis has a tolerance of 5%, the machine for mixing has one of 1% (due to the large amount). you can be ABSOLUTELY sure, that the company selling feedstuff will adjust their machine to 96%, because they know, that due to the tolerance they can not be fined before a court. several years ago we invented a method for measuring the hormone DES (it was known, that it was used for years). immediately after we published the method, DES disappeared from the market. our chemists were glad and proud - until we heard, that feed producers switched to hexoestrol. we found a method (chemists proud again), only to hear, that feed producers having heard about it, switched to dienoestrol.... for us that's more like a funny game, for the consumer that's a real threat. now you may ask: what has this all to do with organic procducers? it's simple: most of the consumers live in cities and cannot have direct contact to the farmer. so why believe them more than the rest of the world ? the situation is only different, if you know the farmer by person and then it's exact the same situation as having trust in a friend of yours. another example, which is very comparable to certification re no certification. beginning from next year every wine-farmer in germany will be obliged to do a soil analysis for nitrogen content. you may say, that's thanks to the soil lab lobby. you're wrong. it's the consumers, who pressured the water companies and were tired of paying higher and higher prices due to increasing elimination costs for nitrate and the closure of wells nearby vineyards. your system of charging the source of the contamination won't work again. especially if brought forward by a single person. do you think tobacco companies could have been sued by individuals ?? >come to mean what it does precisely because there IS a difference >in the value and results of different types of agricultural >production systems, one founded on biological principles and >processes, the other on easily commercialized bottles of >chemicals that make little or no effort to account for the >effects on the environment and human health they produce. douglas, i worked in developing countries and you should know better, that especially there private farmers have neither the knowledge nor the money for individual defense. one day i went to the agricultural supply company, and the first thing i saw, was the lack of the plastic container on top of it for dosing. NONE of the farmers around knew about it, they were put away by the employees of the supply company and sold as schnaps glasses. the farmers were sold rotten equipment, they tried to sell usual NPK-fertilizer for a higher price, because the same fertilizer was "exlusively" designed for the higher-prized tobacco and not for my cabbage. a dr. fausto (a studied farmer) even claimed, that i could not use this fertilizer on cabbage, because "tobacco fertilizer can exclusively be used on tobacco and would kill my vegetables". he offered me fertilizer bags with a nice collard with vegetables on it - it was his "tobacco" fertilizer with the tobacco collard put away. LOTS of cheating even in countries most people believe their inhabitants to be more familiar with each other and less "wall-street-trimmed" .. and you want a number ? 3 percent of german "organic" food have normal conventional pesticide residues. meaning 3% are lying to consumers and also meaning 32 out of 33 organic farmers are honest. >I share Sal's outrage and find ample basis for his totally >sincere and well founded analysis of the present situation. He's >getting screwed as things stand and deserves much better >treatment from the elected authorities who've sworn to uphold the >public good, with liberty and justice for all. He's supporting a >whole network of bureaucrats that add no value to the crops he >himself produces, at his own cost. The idea that someone farther >away from the scene is better equipped to determine whether or >not his product is as he and his clients say it is, is an insult. >If a reasonable doubt exists, that that doubt be raised in an >appropriate forum, with the risk shared by both parties. i understand sal's situation very well (please sal, believe that's not intended towards you, as i do not know neither you nor your situation, it's NOT intended as an insult against you, you might be the most honest person on the whole planet.) but even he can't garantuee, that his co-farmers have the same honesty. one year ago a large manipulation with organic food from israel was detected. i also bought of these fruits, BUT: who am i to blame ? and what's the compensation for having eaten pesticide residues i expected not to eat with these fruits?? i did not even know the name of any grower. did they all cheat (CERTAINLY not, but do i have to test every avocado in the lab? - once tested, it's gone!) can i restrict future buys to certain people among them? certainly not. so what shall i do and what's within the range of my possibilities ? ? usually there's only one thing: avoid ALL products from israel, and with them those from the innocent and honest growers.... any better solution ? >If periodic inspections are called for due to public health >concerns (as they could be in any industry and for organic and >conventional farmers alike), funding for these should be derived >from the same tax moneys that fund any other governmental >activity at present, without penalizing the farmers that are >doing more than the rest to produce a healthy, nutritious product >without damaging the environment, and doing so on the basis of >their own effort and conviction, with no help from those now >living off these farmers hard work: Harvesting without having >planted, cashing in without having to take a product to market here you have my full support and it is exactly the way, it's done in germany and most european countries and everybody is lucky with the system !!!! there are 6 or 7 governmental food inspection units in germany, fully supplied and the analysts paid by the government (meaning everyone). they do the tests and report violations to a special task force with full investigation rights like the police. per chance about 1 of every 1000 individual products is controlled on actually known problems. so the price for society is quite low, the risk of detection also, but the mere fact, that there is a control system at all, seems to make troublemakers think twice. the fact, that fines go down very fast as soon as the information gets around in producer circles, that a method exists, speaks for itself... some of the controlling agencies are no governmental ones, they are private companies, who have a long history of trustworthy behavior and that's all, the public needs to trust them. one case of a detected palm greasing and they are out of business. the organic grower pays only his membership in HIS organisations like IFOAM, demeter or naturland. at least now i do understand much better, what sal is critizing !!!. here you have the choice of getting certified for an annual fee or you may just call yourself "organic". that's so logical to me, that at first i did not understand, that sal is being FORCED to pay for naming his business organic. that would be the same, as if government would give out order, that a chemical plant has to get certified, for being allowed to name itself a "chemical" plant. an iso-certified enviromental friendy chemical plant would be another thing. klaus --------------- klaus wiegand +-[Quote of the day, powered by k. wiegand]------+ | | | "The bad news is Americans are much more | | cynical about business. The good news | | is that Americans' expectations for honesty | | among businesses have gone down." | | - Roper Vice President Tom Miller | +------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 07:58:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27268 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA22368 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:36:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22359 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:36:52 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.67]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:34:57 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991104062202.007c8ac0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 06:22:02 -0600 To: Subject: Soybean Selection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 Below is the abstract and url for an article that demostrates the benefit of selecting plant varieties most suited to you local environment and the intended end use. Mike Miller Tofu Characteristics Influenced by Soybean Crop Year and Location T.C. Helms, T.D. Cai, K.C. Chang, and J.W. Enz Department of Plant Sciences, Department or Food and Nutrition, Department of Cereal Science, and Department of Soil Science North Dakota State University Abstract Plant breeders and tofu processors need to understand the influence of environment on tofu quality and color. Our objective was to determine the influence of locations within a year and differences between years on tofu yield, quality, and color. We evaluated two soybean (Glycine max (L). Merr.) genotypes that were developed for the tofu specialty market at four locations in 1993 and five locations in 1994. There were significant differences between years for tofu yield, protein content, oil content, and color averaged across genotypes. There were significant differences among locations within each year for soymilk solid content and tofu yield, protein content, oil content, protein ratio (11S/7S), firmness,and yellowness. Due to the influence of environment, genotypes should only be compared for tofu yield, quality, and color within the same environment. Processors can use this information to identify which locations produce the best quality tofu. This article is only available online at http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndagres/ndagres.htm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 08:31:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27639 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA13713 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:11:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13657 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.146] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:08:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:07:45 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1297.991104@acnet.net> To: "Dr Maggi Linington" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: The reference to a possible link between breast feeding and feeling close to nature put into perspective In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 Hello Dr. Linington: Thursday, November 04, 1999, 4:47:46 AM, you wrote: DML> I have NEVER read anywhere in the last 18 months that bottle fed DML> babies do not have an affinity for nature. There was no firm allegation made and I am NOT doing research on the subject, nor do I plan to. An obvious confusion is occurring and both topics and motives are being scrambled indiscriminately. It's important here to not forget where each participant was coming from and going, and I will speak for MYSELF. We will go back to the beginning. The topic was: Time and the Benefit of BT Corn. There are 6 messeges in this mailbox of mine that contain the words "breast fed": Yours, two of Alex McGregor's and four of of mine, the first was sent by me on Oct 29. In that post, I asked Alex whether or not he had been breast fed and I did so for the reason later stated: In order to determine whether or not a correlation MIGHT exist between his apparent feeling that agriculture was an unnatural act for human beings and having been breast fed or not breast fed, based both on past personal observations and the nature of the issue: Evidently *I* am more comfortable than Alex is with agriculture's role in human destiny, in spite of the all too frequent misuse of it. There was no offense meant or made by my having asked the question and that is the only issue of importance here. Since Alex interpreted my question in a defensive way, I therefore explained my reason for having asked it (which you may or may not adhere to, Dr., and I would certainly not insist that you do). DML> If Douglas wants to quote family personalities to "prove" his DML> point then I have the exact opposite in mine a bottle fed who is DML> nature mad and a breast fed who is definitely not. No, what Douglas wants is simply to remain true to the issues pertinent to this list. This type of interchange serves only to degenerate the quality of the issues that ARE important and DO need to be addressed here. So I will repeat once more what I want: Drop this irrelevant issue or save it for private email (which I may or may not answer). DML> Douglas, please quote references for your allegation. Once more. There was no allegation. There was an explanation for having asked a question due to the motive for the question's having been misunderstood. DML> , 'cause I for one think that sounds like an old wives tale. The old wife is someone else. I have explained my motives, more than once now. DML> On the other hand if it is true I'll include the question of DML> breast or bottle fed in my next job interview Very cute remark. But please save it (and others like it) for off list discussion. DML> Regards DML> Dr MJ Linington This has degenerated into nothing more than a personal confrontation and waste of time. It's an unimportant issue and straying far from both the original topic and good sanet participation. The topic is not a sanet topic and is inappropriate here, so let's NOT degenerate the list further with this kind of thing. Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 08:47:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27787 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22260 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:27:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22173 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.146] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:24:56 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:23:43 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17308.991104@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[4]: Proposed organic cost share program X-Sender: Douglas Hinds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 (Originally sent off list on Nov. 3) Hello Klaus, Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 8:46:09 AM, you wrote: ... KW> maybe i did not understand correctly: KW> is he as "organic" farmer OBLIGED by american law to get certified KW> or is the certification a decision of each farmer for a certain KW> label ?? OFPA (Organic Foods Production Act) The US federal law, was passed in 1990 but not yet implemented due to controversies involved with the Organic Rule proposed last year that as far as I know have not been resolved. (I've been offline of most of the past year). Additionally, a number of us have opposed the mandatory certification that OFPA calls for. Sal is a good example of why intervention by the US Government as a certifier (or the agency that controls the certifiers) is unwise, except as an alternative available by free choice. That is, by making the distinction between organic and certified organic a legal one, so that the word organic does not become property of a select organic insider power elite, both within and outside of (but with strong ties to) the Government. In California, where Sal is located, certification was optional but I believe became mandatory. [Others here may care to update this]. To me, there is a legal issue involved regarding the proper role of government (not precisely of the people and for the people in the US, but rather the corporations), as well as a moral one, regarding the authority of the individual to freely make true claims, until proven otherwise. I enjoy your posts and read them (there are many posts I don't read for lack of time). I am aware that we share many values and perceptions and think that differences in the European situation and tradition are responsible for most of any differences that may lie between us on this issue. KW> here in europe "organic" growers are an extreme mixture of highly KW> qualified people with a perfect observation and on the other side KW> real dumb farmers, who will never be able to compete on a KW> professional market and they just try their luck by naming their KW> products "organic". that means nothing (except: a higher price KW> consumers are willing to pay for the most important claim - no KW> pesticides). KW> but: if i came to mexico and tell you: "i'm a golf trainer and KW> will give you golfing lessons for 50$ each", do you EXPECT me to be KW> a "trained" trainer or just a guy, who names himself a trainer. and KW> what, if you find out, that i'm not the slightest part better KW> at golf than you (it's highly probable, but of us have not the KW> slightest idea of golf) here in germany this would not be forbidden, KW> although everyone would expect a certified trainer.... so: how to KW> proceed, if you feel cheated and i'm not willing to pay back your KW> 100$ paid meanwhile ?? with fists ?? KW> klaus The justice system is not functioning well in Mexico as yet. Delays are rampant and corruption still exists. But in any country, a legal structure is a required condition for procuring justice, where Governments sets the rules and a forum to hear disputes, but DOESN'T get into the certification business or force measures that inhibit the competitiveness of organic farmers and their products in the open food market, in the case of organic food labeling. Other effective measures involve public expose of consumer fraud and any legitimate company will go out of it's way to avoid being publicly denounced, with the consequent damage to it's image and reputation, and the effect that this can have on their trade. At the same time, a company or grower unfairly slandered has recourse to forums to hear and rectify this too. Governments should provide the laws and forums and not attempt to change the meaning of words. Whether a product is organic or not depends on factors that can be measured and verified because they are inherent in the product and that is where the meaning comes from. In short, organic refers to a production and handling system and he who implemented it is best qualified to state whether or not he used a given set of principles and practices as his agricultural production system; while certified organic refers to an outside authority. The distinction is important. Douglas P.S.: After participating in something like the above, I often want to share it. Any objections to posting it? (He said no privately and here it is). To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 09:30:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28427 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10415 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:01:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10396 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:01:15 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:59:20 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991104074627.007cc700@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 07:46:27 -0600 To: Subject: BT Cautions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 Below is an intro to an article on BT I found on the hard drive that is relevant to our discussion of BT Corn. Unfortunately, I don't have the url on this one but the reference is below. It appears that only some of the article is saved but it shows even organic uses of BT are not squeaky clean from an environmental viewpoint but it is better than synethics. Mike Miller Bacillus thuringiensis (B.t.). Carrie Swadener. Journal of Pesticide Reform, Volume 14, Number 3, Fall 1994. Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, Eugene, OR. Bacillus thuringiensis (B.t.) by Carrie Swadener Introduction Bacillus thuringiensis (B.t.) is a live microorganism that kills certain insects and is used to kill unwanted insects in forests, agriculture, and urban areas. In a purified form, some of the proteins produced by B.t. are acutely toxic to mammals. However, in their natural form, acute toxicity of commonly-used B.t. varieties is limited to caterpillars, mosquito larvae, and beetle larvae. B.t. is closely related to B. cereus, a bacteria that causes food poisoning and to B. anthracis, the agent of the disease anthrax. Few studies have been conducted on the chronic health effects, carcinogenicity, or mutagenicity of B.t. People exposed to B.t. have complained of respiratory, eye, and skin irritation, and one corneal ulcer has occurred after direct contact with a B.t. formulation. People also suffer from allergies to the "inert" (secret) ingredients. People with compromised immune systems may be particularly susceptible to B.t. Viable B.t. spores are known to exist for up to one year following application. Insect resistance to B.t. has been well documented. Genetic engineering may greatly expand use of B.t., speeding up the development of more resistance. Large-scale applications of B.t. can have far-reaching ecological impacts. B.t. can reduce dramatically the number and variety of moth and butterfly species, which in turn impacts birds and mammals that feed on caterpillars. In addition, a number of beneficial insects are adversely impacted by B.t. B.t. is less toxic to mammals and shows fewer environmental effects than many synthetic insecticides. However, this is no reason to use it indiscriminately. Its environmental and health effects as well as those of all other alternatives must be thoroughly considered before use. B.t. should be used only when necessary, and in the smallest quantities possible. It should always be used as part of a sustainable management program. --------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 12:25:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02594 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 12:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA27932 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:42:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27755 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from THE-SPA.COM ([204.97.227.3]) by THE-SPA.COM with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 2807700 ; Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:39:16 -0500 Received: from cisa ([206.153.192.223]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 2807400 ; Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:39:02 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991104113908.007c36c0@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:39:08 -0500 To: agresource@onelist.com, jimdpitts@aol.com, jazzli@crocker.com, emaltby@open-field.org, begg@together.net, Mmaide@aol.com, bschultz@hampshire.edu, barts@valinet.com, bwallace@javanet.com, pickens@crocker.com, dcooley@microbio.umass.edu, kruhf@smallfarm.org, nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Job Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 Job Announcement The Organic Trade Association seeks a highly-motivated individual as Membership & Special Events Coordinator to administer fundraising and special events for rapidly expanding national business association. Excellent communication and computer skills. Team player. Send cover letter, resume, references, salary requirements by November 19th to OTA, PO Box 547, Greenfield MA 01302. For more information, please contact Amy Wales at awales@ota.com. Attachments may be e-mailed in Microsoft Word (for PC), Version 7 or older, to awales@ota.com. The Organic Trade Association is the trade association for the organic industry in North America. Our goal is to encourage global sustainability through promoting and protecting the growth of diverse organic trade. http://www.ota.com ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 14:16:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04935 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04720 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:44:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04708 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKO00HOGRR37C@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:16:46 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Selling sustainability/greenwashing To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 Howdy, all-- First of all, many thanks to those of you who have written me individually recently to inquire whether I'd gotten dispirited on SANET and stopped writing. I haven't; I've just been extra busy with a cluster of writing, Web, and publishing projects lately. I've also been feeling a little under the weather as my body adjusts to shorter, darker days that, in early November, are warmer and sunnier than they were in July. Peculiar beyond belief. :^D This morning, it occurred to me that lately I haven't posted anything to you all from PR Watch, CMD's corporate-flack-watching newsletter. An item in the third quarter, 1999, newsletter that I think would interest many of you: an article about companies that seek "commercial advantage through a focus on sustainability," and how that works at the PR level. Through the Revolving Door: From Greenpeace to Big Business by Dr. Sharon Beder http://www.prwatch.org/99-Q3/greenpeace.html#start peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Look around the table. If you don't see a sucker, get up. Because you're the sucker. --poker player Amarillo Slim To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 15:26:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06523 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29259 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:29:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29232 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.36 (mx3-22.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.36]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06553; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:27:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3821E1D8.68B6@smallfarms.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:43:20 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Dear Klaus and David, Since both of you live outside the USA, and see what's happening here throught slightly different eyes, what do you see as the building blocks for farmer first national certification? Do you see leaders, friends or obvious single issues to pursue we don't see because we're in the forest and can't see the trees? glenn Buy from the Farmer htt://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 17:57:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09424 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00543 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:14:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00276 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:14:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [144.92.244.229] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA40454 (8.9.1/50); Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:11:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991104161143.0077ca5c@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:11:43 -0600 To: citnet-list@citnet.org, ecomda@danenet.wicip.org, bagajews@students.wisc.edu, jmmog@students.wisc.edu, cebooker@facstaff.wisc.edu, jmsimons@facstaff.wisc.edu, lesultan@students.wisc.edu, hageurki@students.wisc.edu, clvanlaa@students.wisc.edu, ermagner@students.wisc.edu, srmarmar@students.wisc.edu, jrknorr@students.wisc.edu, ddalsore@students.wisc.edu, jmooster@students.wisc.edu, eajusten@students.wisc.edu, srrabide@students.wisc.edu, dbutler@students.wisc.edu, chswanso@students.wisc.edu, agstone@facstaff.wisc.edu, gkellman@students.wisc.edu, wlbland@facstaff.wisc.edu, jlrieste@facstaff.wisc.edu, nmartino@students.wisc.edu, jadeelo@students.wisc.edu, jwlyne@students.wisc.edu, janetparker@students.wisc.edu, jrkloppe@facstaff.wisc.edu, kpdemast@students.wisc.edu, merosemeyer@facstaff.wisc.edu, cjpresti@students.wisc.edu, ndcorcor@students.wisc.edu, aaapplet@students.wisc.edu, mkrome@inxpress.net, sventura@facstaff.wisc.edu, lrcooperband@facstaff.wisc.edu, jhendric@facstaff.wisc.edu, embenne1@students.wisc.edu, bdturner@students.wisc.edu, mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu, eklein1@students.wisc.edu, ppa-greatlakes@igc.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Michelle M. Miller" Subject: Bt and butterflies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 FYI - from Becky Goldburg, staff scientist at Environmental Defense Fund's New York City office.....m3 From: Becky Goldburg@EDF on 11/04/99 03:59 PM Subject: Industry manipulation of research results on Bt corn and monarchs I am writing to provide a first hand perspective on articles stating that "Bt corn poses little risk to monarchs" which have appeared in the Chicago Tribune, LA Times, St Louis Post Dispatch, and other papers in the past two days. Some of these articles are below. I attended Tuesday's (Nov 2) meeting in Rosemount, Illinois, on Bt corn and monarchs that is described in these articles. With the exception of an article in today's NYTimes (also below), these articles all stated that the meeting would reach a conclusion that Bt corn poses little risk to monarchs -- even though most of the articles were written before the meeting was even held!! Luckily, Carol Yoon from the NY Times attended the meeting. During the afternoon, she stood up and said that she had just talked to her editors and that they had received a press release from industry stating that the meeting would conclude that Bt corn presented little risk to monarchs. (See BIO's press release, below.) Carol asked if participants agreed with this conclusion. The answer was a clear "No" from a number of researchers. To be frank, I am appalled by industry's manipulation of a scientific meeting at which a number of researchers -- many of which have only analyzed some of their data and thus have only preliminary results to report -- were supposed to discuss their work in a careful and deliberate manner. Please feel free to circulate this email message. Becky Goldburg Environmental Defense Fund ---------------------- Forwarded by Becky Goldburg on 11/04/99 03:00 PM --------------------------- From: Linda Jantzen on 11/04/99 10:37 AM To: Becky Goldburg cc: Subject: NYTimes article News from the Net Date: 11/04/99 EDF Program: Biotechnology Publication: New York Times Headline: No Consensus on the Effects of Engineering on Corn Crops EDF Quoted: Reporter: CAROL KAESUK YOON http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/110499sci-animal-monarch.ht ml November 4, 1999 No Consensus on the Effects of Engineering on Corn Crops By CAROL KAESUK YOON ROSEMONT, Ill. -- An unusual scientific symposium organized and financed by a biotech trade group ended on Wednesday with conflicting claims about the risks that genetically engineered corn might pose to the monarch butterfly. Makers of the genetically altered corn were put on the defensive in May when a study by Cornell researchers was published in the journal Nature showing that pollen from corn producing the insecticidal toxin Bt could kill monarch caterpillars in the laboratory. Since then the potential threat to the monarch has become a focus for the growing opposition to genetically engineered crops by environmental and other groups. After the study, the biotech industry sponsored further research on the issue, including some presented at the meeting here. The Agricultural Biotechnology Stewardship Working Group, the industry group that organized the symposium, issued a statement this morning saying scientists were expected to conclude that the altered corn pollen did not harm the monarch. But far from culminating in a consensus, the day was marked by sometimes heated exchange and ended with some scientists concluding that the bioengineered corn was safer than had been feared while others said that it was premature to drawn any such conclusions. "I hope we will all be a little patient, and allow good science to work its way to good data and good discussions," Dr. Adrianna Hewings, who represented the Department of Agriculture at the meeting, said in a concluding statement. The department is the primary federal regulator of genetically engineered crops. Many of the researchers emphasized that their results were preliminary, with many studies still far from complete. Some presented data suggesting that pollen from different varieties differ in their toxicity, with one genetic variety of corn known as 176 posing a much greater threat than other more common varieties. In addition, researchers presented evidence that suggests that Bt corn pollen may not travel as far away from fields as had been feared. "The worst-case scenario is not true," said Dr. Stuart Weiss, a researcher at Stanford University. "There's not a toxic pollen cloud wiping out monarchs and all species." Dr. Richard Hellmich, a research entomologist at Iowa State University, was among the most positive about the safety of the corn. He said that "research today had no bias to it" and that "there was a lot of information presented that was positive about Bt corn." But others noted that data presented showed that within and nearby cornfields, plants like milkweed, which monarch caterpillars eat, do get a heavy dusting of toxin-producing pollen. What remains unknown, researchers agreed, was where monarchs were really coming from and what proportion were likely to be growing up on plants with harmful amounts of pollen. "I don't know that we can even rule anything out based on the data," said Dr. John Losey, the entomologist at Cornell who was an author on the original monarch study. Stephen Johnson, an associate deputy assistant administrator at the Environmental Protection Agency, said after the meeting that "it was clear from presentations that there is and still continues to be a great deal of scientific debate" and that the agency was not prepared to draw any conclusions. Some researchers expressed concern that so many studies, still far from completion and none peer-reviewed or published, should be given such a public airing, in particular in a forum orchestrated by the industry whose products safety has been brought into question. The industry group sponsoring the event includes the Monsanto Company, Novartis A.G. of Switzerland, Pioneer Hi-Bred, which is owned by the DuPont Compay, and other makers of genetically engineered seed. "We felt it was dirty pool and the fox was guarding the chicken coop," said Dr. Lincoln Brower, a monarch expert at Sweet Briar College in Virginia. "It was not conclusive." Copyright 1999 The New York Times Company SCIENTIFIC SYMPOSIUM TO SHOW NO HARM TO MONARCH BUTTERFLY November 2, 1999 Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO) Press Release CHICAGO -- Genetically improved corn poses negligible harm to the Monarch butterfly population, a panel of scientists is expected to conclude at a day-long symposium on new field-conducted research that dispels doubts raised last spring about the safety of the Monarch population. This summer, researchers went beyond the laboratory and into the field to track the behavior of Monarchs, their feeding habits on milkweed plants, the proximity of milkweed to corn fields, and the effects of Bt corn pollen on larvae. The 20 scientists will release the results of 17 separate studies specifically designed to address questions raised by a Cornell University study included in the Rscientific correspondenceS section of Nature, a British science journal. The article claimed to establish a link between the mortality of Monarch butterfly larvae and the presence of pollen from corn that has been genetically improved for protection against insect pests to produce higher yielding and lower cost crops. That research was based on a four-day laboratory test that failed to simulate natural conditions. At the time, Dr. John E. Losey, author of the study, himself said: RIt would be inappropriate to draw any conclusions about the risk to Monarch populations in the field based solely on these initial results.S Does the pollen from genetically improved corn -- also known Bt pollenQaffect the Monarch butterfly in nature? The scientists participating in todayUs event have conducted field research Q from across the United States and Canada Q to address this key question. The research results will be released today at the Monarch Butterfly Research Symposium, conducted at the Rosemont Suites Hotel OUHare near Chicago. The symposium will be hosted by the Agricultural Biotechnology Stewardship Working Group (ABSWG), with program participation by the U.S. Department of Agriculture-Agricultural Research Service and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The research was conducted during the summer at universities in corn producing regions of North America and was funded independently and by the ABSWG. The symposium will conclude with a special briefing for media at 4 p.m. at which leading scientists will summarize research presented in five interest areas: * Monarch biology and ecology, Dr. Chip Taylor, University of Kansas * Larval feeding trends, Dr. Richard Hellmich, USDA-ARS; Iowa State University * Milkweed distribution in the environment, Dr. Start Weiss, Thomas Reid Associates, Palo Alto, Calif. * Monarch sensitivity to Bt pollen, Dr. Blair Siegfried, University of Nebraska * Monarch exposure to Bt pollen, Dr. Galen Dively, University of Maryland Location, time and registration information is provided below. WHAT: Monarch Research Symposium P Media Briefing WHEN: 4p.m. Central, Tuesday, Nov. 2, 1999 WHERE: Rosemont Suites Hotel OUHare 5500 North River Road, Rosemont, IL 60018 AUDIO: A toll-free phone line will be available to listen and ask questions. Please call Margaret Speich at (202) 296-1585 or Charlie Craig at (202) 857-0244 for call-in number and to register. The ABSWG is a consortium of companies and associations involved in the research, development and introduction of agricultural biotechnology products. Some of the research to be presented at the symposium was funded by the ABSWG. MONARCH BUTTERFLY SO FAR NOT IMPERILED >>GENE-ALTERED CORN GETS AN EARLY OK IN STUDIES >> >>Peter Kendall, Tribune Environment Writer >>11/02/1999 >> >>Chicago Tribune >>Page 4 >> >>When scientists announced in the spring that genetically engineered corn >>might kill monarch butterflies, two things happened: >>Groups opposed to genetic engineering adopted the monarch, perhaps the most >>recognizable American butterfly, as a symbol of the potential for trouble >>when science transplants genes from one species to another, and swarms of >>scientists headed out to cornfields across North America during the summer >>to see if the work done in the lab made sense in the field. >>Although data remains inconclusive, several studies suggest it is unlikely >>that many monarchs will be killed by accidentally eating pollen from >>so-called Bt corn. >> >>On Tuesday, the first Monarch Butterfly Research Symposium is to convene in >>Rosemont, where university scientists, some of whom have received grants >>from the bioengineering-seed companies, will discuss their early findings. >>"My impression right now is that the Bt impact on monarchs is minimal," said >>Dennis Calvin, a Penn State University entomologist. Highway departments >>that mow roadsides and railroads that spray their right-of-ways probably >>kill more monarchs than transgenic corn, Calvin said. >>The summer's monarch research was spawned by the findings of John Losey, a >>Cornell University entomologist who in May reported in the science journal >>Nature that transgenic corn has the potential to kill monarch caterpillars. >>He found that if milkweed, the only plant that monarch caterpillars eat, is >>dusted with pollen from genetically engineered corn, some of the >>caterpillars die. >> >>Bt corn has been implanted with a gene taken from a bacterium that is toxic >>to caterpillars. The gene tells the corn to produce the same caterpillar >>poison the bacteria makes, killing off a pest called the corn borer, a moth >>larvae. But that is toxin also present in the corn's pollen, which drifts >>away from >>the corn and lands on any plant that happens to be growing nearby, including >>milkweed. >> >>Scientists over the summer tried to measure how much Bt pollen it takes to >>kill the caterpillars and how much might land on milkweed leaves. >>Mark Sears, a professor at the University of Guelph in Ontario, found that >>corn pollen doesn't travel far. Using sticky petri dishes set on poles >>that are about the height of >>milkweed, about 3 feet, Sears and his colleagues determined that 90 percent >>of the pollen landed within 16 feet of the field. He also set out to find >>out how much Bt pollen has to be sitting on a milkweed leaf to kill a >>monarch caterpillar. He found a threshold of about >>500 to 700 pollen grains per square centimeter before the youngest, smallest >>monarch larvae started to die. >> >>When the researchers counted pollen grains on milkweed leaves in the field, >>they found that plants growing in the cornfield had an average of 78 grains >>of Bt pollen per square centimeter. Milkweed just three feet outside the >>cornfield had only 26 grains per centimeter. >> >>"The risk to monarch larvae is very minimal," Sears said. >>Galen Dively from the University of Maryland also set out to measure how >>much of the pollen lands on milkweed and collected 1,300 milkweed leaves >>from in and around Maryland cornfields. Although just 13 percent of his >>samples have been analyzed at a federal pollen laboratory, the early results >>also suggest that there is not enough pollen on milkweed leaves to kill >>monarch caterpillars. >> >>"The milkweed isn't real good at catching pollen," Dively said. "Pollen >>tends to bounce off of it." >>John Pleasants, a professor in the department of zoology and genetics at >>Iowa State University, found that 88 percent of the milkweed within one >>meter of a corn field would fall below the level where they could hurt the >>caterpillars, and 100 percent of the milkweed just two meters from a Bt >>field would be monarch-safe. >> >>Losey, too, will submit new research at the symposium that suggests that >>monarchs might avoid milkweed near corn plants anyway. >>He believes, however, that the question remains open of whether Bt corn >>kills monarchs. >>"It is too early to be reassured or more alarmed based on the early data," >>Losey said. "It's too early to rule how big a risk there is going to be." >> >>======= >>SCIENTISTS DISCOUNT THREAT TO BUTTERFLY FROM ALTERED CORN >>By Robert Steyer >>11/02/1999 >>St. Louis Post-Dispatch >>Page A5 >> >>The monarch butterfly has a lot more to fear than the pollen of genetically >>engineered corn, several experts said Monday. >>The scientists, among 20 who will present reports today, said new field >>tests and past research indicate that monarch butterfly larvae are >>threatened more by pesticides and environmental damage than by biotech >>pollen. >>Their findings may play an important role in the debate over bioengineered >>food because the monarch has become a rallying point for biotech critics. >>The critics argue that federal government approvals have moved too quickly >>for biotech crops with built-in defenses against insects and weeds. >>But most of the seven scientists speaking Monday said they believe the risk >>to these butterflies is small. >>"If we thought there would be a big risk to the monarch, we wouldn't be >>behind this technology," said John Pleasants, assistant professor of zoology >>and genetics at Iowa State University. >>"I don't think it's an issue," said John Foster, professor of entomology at >>the University of Nebraska, who has "no reservations" about planting or >>eating genetically engineered corn. >>"Habitat destruction, mowing and spraying rights of ways with chemicals" >>have a greater impact on butterflies' health and safety, Foster said. >>Dennis Calvin, professor of entomology at Pennsylvania State University, >>said his "impression is that the (biotech corn pollen) impact on monarchs is >>minimal." >>The scientists have been studying the impact of biotech corn pollen on >>monarch larvae and on milkweed, the monarch's principal food. They spoke on >>a telephone conference call to several newspaper reporters that was arranged >>by a biotechnology trade group. >>They offered a preview of research that will be presented today at a >>symposium in Chicago, adding that some research is preliminary and that some >>data are still being tabulated. >>The symposium is organized by Monsanto Co., several other biotech giants and >>trade organizations representing the agribusiness and biotechnology >>companies. >>They are paying these prominent academic researchers approximately $100,000 >>to examine larvae feeding behavior, the spread of pollen, the distribution >>of milkweed and the toxicity of biotech pollen. >>These tests follow a May report by a Cornell University researcher, who said >>monarch butterfly larvae exposed to pollen from biotech corn had higher >>death rates and lower growth rates than larvae exposed to pollen from >>standard corn. >>The researcher, John E. Losey, assistant professor of entomology, performed >>the tests in a laboratory. He said field tests were necessary to confirm his >>findings. >>Although some researchers criticized Losey's work, his article in the >>magazine Nature helped inflame anti-biotech opinion in the United States. It >>also had an impact in Europe, where consumers and politicians support >>labeling of gene-altered food and restricting - or even banning -biotech >>crop imports from the United States. >>"The bottom line is we need more data," Losey said Monday during the >>conference call. He has done field tests on monarch larvae feeding habits >>independently of the industry-backed research. His results have been mixed. >>"I'm not reassured or more alarmed about (my original study) based on this >>data," Losey said. "It is too early to tell to rule out a risk or to tell >>how strong the risk will be." >>It's also too early to tell how the Chicago symposium will affect the >>American public, which has been more supportive of - or at least less >>antagonistic to - crop biotechnology than Europeans. >>Critics are accelerating their campaigns, suing to stop the federal >>government from approving new biotech crops and threatening protests at the >>World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle in four weeks. They use the >>monarch - nicknamed "the Bambi of the insect world" by one entomologist - as >>a symbol. >>Recently, a coalition of environmental and anti-biotechnology groups began >>running full-page ads in The New York Times. The latest, entitled "Genetic >>Roulette," features a photo of a monarch amid an appeal for a fiv e-year >>freeze on new releases of genetically- altered plants and animals. >>The scientists who spoke Monday made it clear that the monarch butterfly >>debate isn't as simple as critics or corporations suggest. For example: >>* Different types of biotech pollen have different degrees of toxicity. For >>example, pollen from a Novartis corn used on few acres is much more toxic >>than pollen from widely used biotech corn developed by Monsanto. >>* Corn pollen concentrations dissipate as they are blown into neighbor ing >>areas filled with milkweed. Potential danger thresholds for monarchs depend >>on pollen toxicity and the milkweed's distance from cornfields. Wind, rain, >>irrigation practices and other factors influence the concentration of >>pollen. >>* Pleasants, the Iowa State researcher, found that pollen concentrations on >>milkweed at the edge of a cornfield could vary by 80-fold depending whether >>the milkweed plants were upwind or downwind of the field. >>* In Nebraska, Foster found that 95 percent of the corn pollen had spread >>before the first monarch egg had been found, suggesting there was little >>chance monarchs would be affected. But Calvin's computer- model studies of >>six states found there could be big variations in the overlap of monarch >>egg-laying and pollen shedding. "We don't know the impact on the population >>levels of the monarch," he said. "We don't have that data." >>The scientists said, as have their sponsors, that industry financing hasn't >>affected their work. "Industry has supported (my research) over the years," >>said Foster, "and I give them an honest answer that's not always the one >>they want to hear." Michelle Miller Pesticide Use and Risk Reduction Project Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems University of Wisconsin - Madison U.S. Mail: 146 Agriculture Hall 608.262.7135 Campus: 1535 Observatory Drive 608.262.5200 Madison, WI 53706 fax 265.3020 www.wisc.edu/cias/ mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 19:30:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10494 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22793 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:52:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp2.mail.iamworld.net (smtp2-out.mail.iamworld.net [204.91.241.117]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22747 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc014 (1Cust103.tnt5.tco2.da.uu.net [63.21.91.103]) by smtp2.mail.iamworld.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA12933 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:52:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991104184958.00a104a0@pop.iamdigex.net> X-Sender: 10005843@pop.iamdigex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 18:49:58 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Suzanne DeMuth Subject: Alternative Agriculture News Nov. 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 Alternative Agriculture News November 1999 Henry A. Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture 9200 Edmonston Road, #117 Greenbelt, MD 20770 USA Voice (301) 441-8777, Fax (301) 220-0164 E-mail hawiaa@access.digex.net Web site www.hawiaa.org * * * If You Are Interested in Sustainable Agriculture... In addition to this monthly newsletter, the Henry A. Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture publishes the "American Journal of Alternative Agriculture," a quarterly, peer-reviewed journal of research on alternative agriculture. It is a scientific forum for disseminating technical, economic, and social research findings about the character and requirements of alternative agriculture systems. Globalization of pesticide technology within the context of meeting the needs of low- input sustainable agriculture is examined in the first article of the current issue (Vol. 14, No. 2). Other articles cover an alternative, low-input production system for fresh market tomatoes; yields and returns from strip intercropping on six Iowa farms; geographic information systems for selection of CRP tracts to meet different management goals after contract expiration; and the effect of conservation tillage on crop yields, soil erosion, and soil properties under furrow irrigation in western Colorado. For U.S. subscribers, one volume (four issues) costs US$44 for libraries, US$24 for individuals, and US$12 for students; foreign rates are also available. For more information, contact the Wallace Institute, 9200 Edmonston Rd., #117, Greenbelt, MD 20770; (301) 441- 8777; hawiaa@access.digex.net. TABLE OF CONTENTS Minimal Gains for Sustainable Ag in 2000 Budget, p. 1 Floods Highlight Flaws in North Carolina's Farm Policy, p. 2 Disputed Study Questions Safety of Genetically Modified Food, p. 3 Positions, p. 3 Monsanto Will Not Commercialize "Terminator" Technology, p. 4 National Academy of Sciences to Review USDA's Biotech Process, p. 4 Resources, p. 4 Upcoming Events, p. 5 MINIMAL GAINS FOR SUSTAINABLE AG IN 2000 BUDGET The USDA budget passed by Congress last month for Fiscal Year 2000 included only minimal gains for sustainable agriculture programs, with small increases for Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) and the Organic Foods Production Act (OFPA). Here are the approved appropriations for several sustainable agriculture discretionary programs: SARE: An $8 million appropriation was approved for the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education program, the same as the FY99 appropriation. SAPDP: A $3.3 million appropriation was approved for the SARE (Chapter 3) Professional Development Program, the same as the FY99 appropriation. ATTRA: A $1.5 million appropriation was approved for ATTRA, an increase from the FY99 appropriation of $1.3 million. OFPA: The OFPA has funding up to $1 million, an increase from the FY99 appropriation of $500,000. In addition, the following appropriations were approved for mandatory programs: CFO: No funds were approved for the Conservation Farm Option, which also received no funding in the FY99 budget. EQIP: A $174 million appropriation was approved for the Environmental Quality Incentives Program, the same as the FY99 appropriation. WRP: Enrollment in the Wetlands Reserve Program was increased to 150,000 acres from the FY99 enrollment of 120,000 acres. CFSA: A $2.5 million appropriation was approved for the Community Food Security Act, the same as the FY99. FRA: No funds were approved for the Fund for Rural America, which also received no funding in the FY99 budget. IFAFS: No funds were approved for the new Initiative for Future Agriculture and Food Systems, a competitive grants program which was added and then eventually deleted from the FY99 budget. FLOODS HIGHLIGHT FLAWS IN NORTH CAROLINA'S FARM POLICY After the floods of Hurricanes Dennis and Floyd, "loose regulations that helped eastern North Carolina become the nation's biggest producer of turkeys and the second biggest of hogs have come back to haunt the state's public health and its environment," according to a front-page story in The New York Times (October 17, 1999). Hurricane Floyd killed 48 people and caused more than $1 billion in damage in North Carolina; it also left behind "incalculable and continuing hazards in ground water, wells and rivers from animal waste, mostly from giant hog farms." "For years, farmers had been free to build hog and poultry operations as big as they wanted and wherever they liked," the story said. But after the hurricane and its flooding, hog waste flowed into rivers from overloaded waste lagoons, and compounded other flooding problems. According to The Washington Post (October 24, 1999), "Hog lagoons were flooded, wastewater treatment plants were breeched, more than 2 million chickens, turkeys, and hogs drowned, and the scene was set for an environmental mess never encountered before in the state. Everything in the flood's path was swept into this witches' brew--chemicals, gasoline, fertilizers, dead animals, human and livestock wastes--and headed downstream." The State Department of Environment and Natural Resources last month announced an "emergency waste management strategy" for hog and poultry farms in order to keep waste out of the water supply. The North Carolina legislature in 1997 passed a moratorium on construction of new and expanded lagoons until July 2001, but a plan to phase out lagoons will take 10 years. DISPUTED STUDY QUESTIONS SAFETY OF GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD The medical journal Lancet last month published a study "suggesting that genetically modified food may be harmful, even though the research has been widely criticized by scientists and was found wanting by some of the journal's own referees," according to The New York Times (October 15, 1999). The study in the England-based journal reports that rats fed genetically modified potatoes experienced a thickening of their stomach walls, thinning of tissues in the large intestine, and an increase in white blood cells in intestinal linings. According to The Washington Post (October 15, 1999), the researchers "conclude that the gene-altering process somehow made the engineered potatoes toxic....They suspect that the rats' intestinal changes--the medical significance of which remains uncertain--may have been caused by the viruses that scientists used to get the new genes into the potatoes, or by normal potato genes that may have been disrupted when the repellent's genes were inserted." The editor of the journal wrote a commentary "revealing that several of the journal's own scientific reviewers considered the report to be unworthy of publication," The Post said. "They ultimately acquiesced, he writes, in part out of fear that biotech critics would accuse the journal of covering up a public health threat." According to The Times, "Publication of the paper in a peer-reviewed journal is likely to further fan fears about genetically engineered crops in Europe, where consumers and supermarkets are widely rejecting what opponents have called Frankenfoods." POSITIONS National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture seeks an organizer for policy advocacy activities; send letter, resume, writing samples, and references to Amy Little, Executive Director, NCSA, P.O. Box 396, Pine Bush, NY 12566; (914) 744-8448; campaign@magiccarpet.com. Washington State University seeks an Extension Leader, Small Scale and Urban Agriculture, at its Puyallup campus; Master's Degree required, Ph.D. desired; submit letter describing qualifications, vitae, transcripts, and three current letters of reference to Rebecca Armstrong, WSU Cooperative Extension, P.O. Box 646241, Pullman, WA 99164-6241; (509) 335-2822; armstro@wsu.edu. MONSANTO WILL NOT COMMERCIALIZE "TERMINATOR" TECHNOLOGY In an open letter last month to Rockefeller Foundation President Gordon Conway, Monsanto CEO Robert B. Shapiro made "a public commitment not to commercialize sterile seed technologies, such as the one dubbed 'Terminator.'" The development of the so-called "Terminator" technology, which would make plant seeds sterile, has been controversial, especially among rural development groups, because it would prevent farmers from keeping some of their harvest for seed. Conway in June had asked Monsanto to stop using the technology and recommended putting labels on foods that contain genetically modified ingredients to ease consumer fears about biotechnology. "The move by the St. Louis firm is the first time any U.S. crop biotechnology company has sworn off a promising area of research because of public reaction, a sign that the industry is trying to defuse what it fears is a growing anti-biotechnology sentiment in the U.S.," according to The Wall Street Journal (October 5, 1999). "Monsanto's decision is a blow to researchers at Delta & Pine Land [Co.] and the Agriculture Department, which share a 1998 patent on the terminator gene and apparently were in the dark about Monsanto's plans." Before Monsanto's decision, scientists had expected the seeds containing the technology to reach the marketplace in about five years. NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES TO REVIEW USDA'S BIOTECH PROCESS The National Academy of Sciences, in cooperation with the USDA, will establish a committee to undertake an independent, on-going scientific review of USDA's regulatory process for biotechnology-derived plants. The 15 committee members will examine the environmental impacts associated with commercialization of biotechnology-derived plants, and provide guidance on how best to assess and mitigate those risks. The committee will also serve to address emerging scientific issues. "It is important that we maintain public confidence in our regulatory process, and we can only do that by ensuring that our decisions are backed by the most up-to-date and rigorous science available," said USDA Secretary Dan Glickman. RESOURCES "Tracking Progress: Alternatives to Pesticides on the Farm" is available on the Internet at www.pesticide.org/FarmerRptRelease.html, or from Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides at (541) 344-5044. "Animal Agriculture: Waste Management Practices" is available from U.S. General Accounting Office, P.O. Box 37050, Washington, DC 20013; (202) 512-6000; on the Internet, www.gao.gov. "The Organic Pages" is $44.95 plus $6 shipping/handling from Dan Pratt, Organic Trade Association Press, P.O. Box 547-R, Greenfield, MA 01302; (413) 775-9965; info@ota.com. "Forest Futures: Population, Consumption and Wood Resources" is available on the Internet at www.populationaction.org, or from Population Action International, 1120 19th St., #550, Washington, DC 20036; (202) 659-1833. Proceedings from "Marketing, Production, and Manure Contracts in Today's Pork Industry" are $10 from Kaye Longtine, Swine Center, 385 Animal Science/Veterinary Medicine Building, 1988 Fitch Ave., University of Minnesota, St. Paul, MN 55108; (612) 624-4719. "Cultivating Havana: Urban Agriculture and Food Security in the Years of Crisis" is $9 from Institute for Food and Development Policy, 398 60th St., Oakland, CA 94618; (510) 654- 4400; orders can be placed on the Internet at www.foodfirst.org/pubsorder.htm#IDR12. "Talking to Farmers," "Talking to Consumers," "Marketing Sustainably Produced Foods," and "Food Choices" are available from Food Choices, 30 West Mifflin St., #401, Madison, WI 53703; (608) 258-4396. UPCOMING EVENTS November 26-27, "Economic Globalization and the Role of the World Trade Organization Teach-In" will be held in Seattle, WA; contact International Forum on Globalization, 1555 Pacific Ave., San Francisco, CA 94109; (415) 771-8094; e-mail ifg@ifg.org. November 30 (in Washington, DC.) and December 13 (in Oakland, CA), the Food and Drug Administration will hold public meetings about bioengineered foods; in DC, contact Patricia Alexander, FDA, (301) 9827-5006, palexand@oc.fda.gov; in CA, contact Janet McDonald, FDA, (510) 337-6845, jmcdonal@ora.fda.gov. December 2-3, "The Future of Our Food and Farms," a Delaware Valley regional summit, will be held in Philadelphia, PA; contact The Farmers' Market Trust, (215) 568-0830 ext. 13, or 1-800-417-9499; foodfarm@libertynet.org. December 6-7, "Adding Value Through Environmental Marketing: Opportunities for Food Producers, Processors and Retailers" will be held in Madison, WI; contact IPM Institute of North America, 1914 Rowley Ave., Madison, WI 53705; (608) 232-1528; tagreen@compuserve.com. December 6-8, "Organic Agriculture Faces Its Development--The Future Stakes" will be held in Lyon, France; contact Christophe David, ISARA-France, phone (33) 0472325119; david@isara.fr. December 12-16, "Back to the Future on Jointed Legs," the annual meeting of the Entomological Society of America, will be held in Atlanta, GA; contact April Gower, ESA, 9301 Annapolis Rd., Lanham, MD 20706-3115; (301) 731-4535; esa@entsoc.org. December 14 is the deadline for Proposals for Participation for "Transcending Boundaries: Natural Resource Management from Summit to Sea," the 8th International Symposium on Society and Resource Management, to be held in Bellingham, WA, June 17-22, 2000; contact 8th ISSRM, Rm. 217 Arntzen Hall, Western Washington University, Bellingham, WA 98225-9085; (360) 650-3284; issrm8th@cc.wwu.edu. December 15-17, "Conservation 2000," the National Agricultural Conservation 2000 Conference, will be held in New Orleans, LA; contact Conservation Technology Information Center, 1220 Potter Drive, #170, West Lafayette, IN 47906; (765) 494-9555; on the Internet, www.ctic.purdue.edu. January 19-22, 2000, 20th Annual Ecological Farming Conference will be held in Pacific Grove, CA; contact Committee for Sustainable Agriculture, 406 Main St., #313, Watsonville, CA 95076; (831) 763-2111. January 27-30, 2000, 19th Annual Organic Conference and Eco-Products Trade Show will be held at the University of Guelph, Canada; contact Tomas Nimmo, Box 116, Collingwood, Ontario, Canada L9Y 3Z4; (705) 444-0923; organix@georgian.net. March 27-29, 2000, "Soil, Food and People: A Biointensive Model for the New Century," co-sponsored by the Wallace Institute, will be held in Davis, CA; contact the University of California, Davis, Extension, 1-800-752-0881; on the Internet, www.universityextension.ucdavis.edu/biointensive. Henry A Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture 9200 Edmonston Rd Ste 117 Greenbelt MD 20770-1551 Phone: 301-441-8777 Fax: 301-220-0164 Web site: www.hawiaa.org Please place my first name somewhere in the Subject area of any reply to this message, as our email account is shared by several people. Thank you. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 19:34:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10534 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03806 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:10:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03754 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-153.rain.org [198.68.144.153]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 60E4C6175D; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:08:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004201bf2721$d4629de0$999044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , References: Subject: Re: Re[3]: Proposed organic cost share program Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:08:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 .> > the organic grower pays only his membership in HIS organisations > like IFOAM, demeter or naturland. > > > at least now i do understand much better, what sal is critizing > !!!. here you have the choice of getting certified for an annual > fee or you may just call yourself "organic". that's so logical to > me, that at first i did not understand, that sal is being FORCED > to pay for naming his business organic. that would be the same, > as if government would give out order, that a chemical plant has > to get certified, for being allowed to name itself a "chemical" > plant. an iso-certified enviromental friendy chemical plant would > be another thing. > > > > klaus > > > --------------- > klaus wiegand > you have no Idea what I am talking about. .I think the way it worked before this force stuff was I joined CCOF and IFOAM because I wanted my customers to trust what I grow. I volunteered to have them come and inspect me and I know they want organic to grow and like me we want to see this thing work and we work together we were the volunteers of America and being a volunteer thing it was like we were asking to be inspected we were glad and proud to be organic growers .. we volunteered to grow food organic and be inspected from the folks the industry respects but that all gone now. the USDA has taken over the word organic and we are no longer volunteers but forced labor. our inspectors belong now to the USDA there will be no IFOAM rule book no CCOF list only a USDA rule book it is all to be force now and the volunteers of America will be working for the USDA the same folks that bring u GOMs and all the other wonderful things Ag has to offer. there will be one book the USDA book and you will do what the MAN says and you better not tell anyone how you grow food unless you pay and jump through the hoops most all of witch has little to do with the organic of the food. What ever they make the organic grower do they should make all growers do. no one wants pesticides in there food no one want farmers that lie if you don't trust me how can u trust any grower. how do we know what any farmer is really doing out there . don't single out organic growers how can we trust any one selling food. your right but you don't take it far enough and in fact only want to hurt the ones on your side. you single out organic farmers as the liars how do we know what any farmer is doing. what ever you make the organic farmer do u must make all growers that sell food do . every one wants to trust the food they eat the water they drink and the air they breath. check all those farmers not just the organic ones why only check them? do you think those that don't buy organic want pesticides in their food . do you think every farmer out there is using everything like the label says and law says . come on only organic growers lie. come on now. don't just beat up on the organic grower. what ever you make the organic growers do and pay u must make the all growers do. good for the goose good for the gander . grrrrrrrrr To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 20:04:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10985 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25032 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:41:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25028 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP311.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.49]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05266; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:39:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38222897.CE1645F8@sprintmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:45:12 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dr Maggi Linington CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: breast feeding and feeling close to nature References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 Dr Maggi, It's obvious what's going on here. Douglas has been caught touting an opinion as fact. Being called on that has elicited 2 maneuvers: 1) Claiming the moral high ground by calling me belligerent and saying "we're all mature adults." 2) Saying that discussion of how he painted himself in the corner was inappropriate for discussion. My public apologies for embarrassing Doug by pointing out his misstatement of opinion as fact. And thank you for setting the record straight on the relevancy of his inquiry on how I was fed as a baby. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 20:35:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11342 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06344 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:01:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06266 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19664 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (wlbo-98ppp33.epix.net [199.224.98.33]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id TAA22666 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:59:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38222BF7.7D984714@epix.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:59:35 -0500 From: Jim Weaver Reply-To: jaweaver@epix.net Organization: GCES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sanet Subject: On the Run? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 Another check it out. Put off GMO planting decisions, says expert An expert at Southern Illinois University has a word of advice for farmers trying to decide whether they're going to plant genetically modified seed this season. "Wait." Kim S. Harris, an agribusiness economist from Southern Illinois University - Carbondale says, "I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would advocate inaction." Harris specializes in agribusiness management and decision-making. "It's a problem that's not going to go away, but it's too soon to make a decision about whether to plant transgenic crops, which ones to select and how many acres to plant. Delay your seed purchase decision to later this year or even until the first of next year," says Harris. "Between now and January 1, I think industry, government and trade organization representatives in Europe and North America will be meeeting and identifying the most critical issues. There has to be a breakthrough soon regarding the market that will exist for GMOs. If the marketability of GMOs isn't resolved soon, many farmers will switch back to traditional seed varieties," he predicts. http://www.agriculture.com/worldwide/partners/agonline.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 21:46:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12472 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16990 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:09:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16886 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id KAA14535 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:00:10 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA28272 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:31:16 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911050231.KAA28272@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 05 Nov 99 09:35:37 Subject: Japan - 66% of food companies to go non-GM ? To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 I got an inquiry about the high premiums from Japanese buyers of non-GMO crops. Sorry I have no additional info, but please try the addresses/websites below. -- Roberto From: "NLP Wessex" Subject: Japan - 66% of food companies to go non-GM ? Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:52 -0000 This news is likely to further encourage US farmers to switch back to non-gm varieties in 2000 which often are higher yielding anyway - see http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/gmagric.htm . NATURAL LAW PARTY WESSEX nlpwessex@bigfoot.com www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex ========================================================================= Japan grain-non-GM crops bought with high premiums ------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAPAN: November 2, 1999 TOKYO - Japanese have recently bought corn and soybeans grown exclusively from non genetically modified (GM) seeds, at premiums roughly 40-50 percent higher than those for mixed GM and non-GM crops, traders said. Premiums for non-GM, U.S.-grown corn were purchased at premiums of 40-50 cents a bushel more than the cost of genetically mixed varieties. As for soybeans grown in the U.S. states of Indiana, Ohio and Michigan (IOM) that contain higher protein and are suitable for food use, non-GM soybeans were purchased at premiums of 50-60 cents a bushel over unsegregated IOM soybeans. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 4 20:48:44 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11765 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19912 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:24:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (rufino2.gw.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19838 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id JAA12587; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:15:11 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id JAA28044; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:45:41 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911050145.JAA28044@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 05 Nov 99 07:28:59 Subject: Re: Re[3]: Proposed organic cost share program To: WIEGAND@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 >certainly not. so what shall i do and what's within the range of >my possibilities ? ? usually there's only one thing: avoid ALL >products from israel, and with them those from the innocent and >honest growers.... > >any better solution ? Yes, mandatory government certification if a farm uses pesticides, chemical fertilizers, to ensure they use within official limits. For other farms, certification should be optional. In the future, at the proper time, a ban on the use of pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 4 21:45:10 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12449 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21113 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:13:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from proxy4.ba.best.com (root@proxy4.ba.best.com [206.184.139.15]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21108 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (ncs-37.nbn.com [199.4.66.37]) by proxy4.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with SMTP id RAA03256; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:59:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: Subject: New Office / Contact Information Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:01:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 A Beyond Organic Newsflash!! The Beyond Organic office has moved - if you're in the neighborhood, stop by!! Tomales Bay Foods Building Upstairs, Suite 211 Point Reyes Station, CA phone:  415-663-8343 fax:  415-663-8346 (mailing address is still: 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940) That's it ... no conference updates, no press releases. Thanks! Michael Straus Clients: * Coyuchi, Inc. www.coyuchiorganic.com * California Farm Conference (1999) www.caff.org/farmconference.html * Wind Harvest Company www.windharvest.com * Bioneers Conference (1999) www.bioneers.org * LifeDirectory.com www.lifedirectory.com --------- info@beyondorganic.com www.beyondorganic.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 4 23:29:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13944 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29120 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:05:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28983 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id <4QTHL44V>; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:04:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: Sustainable Agriculture Network Subject: (urgently) calling all CSAs Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:04:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Colleagues: In anticipation of national media publicity about Community Supported Agriculture (CSA), we are compiling a national listing/database of CSA farms (USA only at this time). To be available in print (by state) and on the web, we need to finalize the list by November 10. The potential to generate consumer interest in CSAs is very large. The public will be directed to a web site or a mailing address to 'find a CSA farm near you.' Any CSA not on the list will miss an opportunity to have potential shareholders find them. Although response by the public is impossible to predict, we anticipate thousands of snail-mail or web hits. I am excited by the 'teachable moments' this could generate with respect to the general public and our food system. Therefore, I am calling on all CSA farms to contact my office by November 8. Those 450 or so that have already been in touch, no need to contact us again. Please see below for the exact information we are requesting. We will not list any CSA until we have their permission to do so. I have been working with about a dozen organizations nationwide that maintain lists of CSA farms, and we have contacted all CSAs on the lists these groups have shared with me. If you maintain a list of CSA farms, please send that to me electronically. We will credit all organizations that share lists with us. If you know of CSA farms or know the farmers, please consider one of the following: 1) e-mail me (san@nal.usda.gov) with farm name and contact information; 2) call my voice mail 24 hours a day (301-504-6425) with farm name and contact information; 3) go to the web and fill out the form there (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csaform.htm); 4) ask the CSA to e-mail or call me or send a FAX to 301-504-6409 or go to the web and submit a form (see below for information we are requesting). My apologies for the RUSH on this. I do not expect to be able to respond to replies to this message except those that include CSA information. I will be in touch later with more details. MANY THANKS for anything you can do to put me in touch with CSA farms in the USA. We have also set up a web site dedicated to CSA resources (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa). Check it out and let us know if there are resources that need to be there! NOTE THAT the listing at that site was old, and has been disconnected. We expect to post the new data any day now. A note about the WE in this message. The Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN--the outreach arm of the SARE program) and the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC) at the National Agricultural Library, are working with the Robyn Van En Center for CSA, with other Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) personnel and with USDA Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension (CSREES) to compile and make this national listing available in print and on the web. I've done practically nothing else in the past month. See http://www.sare.org http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa http://www.reeusda.gov WE ARE REQUESTING THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM CSA FARMS. Fill in only what you want published. At this time, we will not publish information about the organic certification status of the CSA. CSA Listing Preferred format for e-mail reply is address format without the item descriptors (except FAX). Farm Name Operator Name Address Phone FAX e-mail URL Area/county served Permission to list? YES NO Certified Organic? YES NO Many thanks again to everyone else helping on this project! Andy Andy Clark, Ph.D. SAN Coordinator c/o AFSIC, Room 304 National Agricultural Library 10301 Baltimore Ave. Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 PH: 301-504-6425 FAX: 301-504-6409 san@nal.usda.gov http://www.sare.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 02:51:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16454 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 02:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01681 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 02:26:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01558 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 02:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.74] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 01:23:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 01:22:34 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <057.991105@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Double the pleasure, double the fun Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 No doubt many of you noticed in the Alternative Agriculture News Nov. 1999 that the OFPA recently was awarded $1,000,000°° to do it's thing, double the last amount. DH To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 11:45:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22761 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04958 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:05:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04862 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.51] [199.175.106.51] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11jlpU-0006dRC for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:03:08 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:06:40 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: from grain to grass Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 The following story appeared in the Canadian Cattleman's magazine. It tells of an encouraging turn away from the seed companys, the chemical corporations, and the farm equipment manufacturers. The farmer handles less money but less of it goes to pay interest to the banks and more of it sticks to his hands. Four years ago, Mel Compton and his son Shawn, of Darlingford, Man., zero-tilled 2,700 acres of durum, winter wheat and peas. In addition to the grain operation, Compton fed about 150 to 200 grassers on the wastelands. Mel had been grain farming since the mid-'80s, but the disappearance of the Crow transportation subsidy meant one thing for the Comptons: they had to change the way they were farming. In 1995, they started the transition to grass and cattle. By 1998, they were intensively grazing 1,100 stockers on 560 acres. "Right now you can make more money grassing steers than growing grain," says Mel. The complete budget for the switch was $56,000. As a first step, they sold off 3 quarters and disposed of some leased land. Then they swapped a quarter section with a neighbor to gain access to water. They now own 400 of the 560 acres they grazed last year. Besides land, they sold the air seeder, a tractor, a combine and 2 trucks for another $400,000, which was used to pay off their debts. The equipment he charges against the cattle operation today includes a garden tractor and an old pickup truck. "That's the only collateral we have against the cattle," he says. In the fall of 1997, they tore down most of their existing fence. They started on a 40-acre field of established alfalfa by rotationally grazing 50 steers using cross fences. The rest of the land was air-seeded to a pasture mixture with a cover crop of canola. They didn't spray or fertilize the canola and the crop still yielded 20 bushels an acre. That fall, after harvesting the canola, he fertilized the pasture which contains bird's-foot trefoil, alfalfa, timothy, tall fescue, orchardgrass and meadow bromegrass. His first surprise was how fast the tame bunch grasses came on. "You can almost hear them grow.,, Trefoil was included to dampen the bloating effects of the alfalfa and provide some quick regrowth. "I'm a great believer in trefoil," Compton says. if a low spot requires reseeding, Compton throws some trefoil on it. He also includes a handful of trefoil seed in the mineral so the cattle spread the seed in their manure. About half of the seeds germinate. Last spring, Mel and Shawn developed their rotational grazing plan, fencing the new seeding into ten 32-acre pastures and splitting those into 3- and 6-acre paddocks with single-wire reels. Two hot wires on treated wooden posts are used for the perimeter of the 320 acres and to fence off the riparian areas. Compton incorporated 24'-wide grazing lanes into the end of the field so they can easily move the cattle to the yard and into a 3-acre holding paddock. The holding paddock is enclosed by 3 hot wires, so incoming cattle quickly learn to respect this fence. This spring, the Comptons are building a new processing corral with a curved chute where they can handle animals without having to herd them into the corner of the property. After the fence went up, the next step was to set up a means of drawing fresh water from the creek that runs through their property. First they trenched a hydro line a half mile from the house to a dam on the creek where they installed a pressure tank and 2 submersible pumps. In case one breaks down," says Compton. "And when it's really hot and the cattle are drinking more, I can run both the pumps at the same time so we always have lots of pressure." The water is pressurized to 65 pounds per square inch, tap-like pressure. Sections of heavyduty polypipe clamped together and laid along the fence rows transport the water to the paddocks. "It's so toug you can drive on it and the cattle walk over it all the time," says Compton. Every 300 feet are one-way valves leading to hoses that fill the portable rubberized troughs in the different paddocks. Every time he moves the cattle, he moves the troughs to spread out the manure and trampling. The oiler and mineral stations are also mobile, and when Compton heads down the grazing lanes on his garden tractor, towing a mineral station, the cattle string out behind. Having continual access to mineral/salt and keeping the cattle out of water also helped stop footrot. Pinkeye was the biggest health problem last summer, but by increas- ing their stocking rates this summer they hope to keep it under control. "Some of the grass got so tall, it headed, and that contributed to the pinkeye." The other contributing factor was an abnormally large number of flies last summer. To hold down the fly population, they attract birds by building bird houses along perimeter fences. At the beginning of the season almost all the cattle were given Rumensin boluses. They still had 2 bloat deaths, but they occurred 2 weeks before shipping, probably when the boluses were finished. Wanting to take a Sunday afternoon off, Compton put some steers on 15 acres instead of their normal 6. With less grazing pressure, 2 of the steers ate only the alfalfa, bloated and died. As a trial, he also left 10 steers on the pastures without a bolus, and they all survived. "I think you can manage your alfalfa-grass mix and pasture rotation to cut down the risk of bloat," notes Compton. Based on that small experiment, he may skip the bolus treatment this year and pocket the $13,000 he spent on them last year. After the 2 animals bloated, Mel moved the remaining steers twice a day and grazed them on 2-acre paddocks. 'It forced them to eat the higher fiber grass as well as the alfalfa,' he says. "And it limits what they can eat.' He warns that rotational grazing is not an exact science nor is it for someone who doesn't want to be tied down during the summer. The only weeds they had to contend with were wormwood and knotting thistle. Last year, he spot-sprayed and kept a shovel handy to dig out these inedible weeds. The rest, like Canada thistle and dandelions, were eaten by the cattle. 'In fact, dandelions can be 24% crude protein." Compton's long-term goal is to attain an average daily gain of about 2 pounds a day for 120 days on grass. "We'll be able to put the heifers out a month early this year, so we should be able to increase the gain,' he says. Over the entire season, each acre fed 80 head for one day. This year, they're going to increase their stocking rate by 25%, grazing 1,000 head of 800-pound steers that they backgrounded this winter on the 320 acres. To do that, they will have to move the cattle twice a day. They'll also graze 150 to 200 heifers on 80 acres of native pasture, and they're fencing 160 acres that they hayed last year to graze another 400 to 500 head. They own one-third of the cattle and custom graze the rest for Cattlex, an order buying firm in Hamiota, Man. At 40 to 44 cents a pound for custom grazing, Compton says it's worth having Cattlex share the risk of getting the steers too heavy. "Currently, a well-managed custom-grazing operation will net (not gross) as much as if you owned them,' he says. At 411 pounds of gain per acre for the steers, the net return per acre is better than most crops. "Especially when you consider your input costs, and we don't have as much debt to finance." "Our goal is to net on 560 acres of grazing as much as we would have on 2,700 acres of cropping,' says Mel.In - Maggie Van Camp To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 13:23:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25192 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19878 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:26:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from unlserve.unl.edu (root@unlserve.unl.edu [129.93.1.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19827 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pmurray.unl.edu (ag-pmurray.unl.edu [129.93.224.80]) by unlserve.unl.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA51492 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:21:03 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:21:03 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19991105112624.46a7bc70@unlserve.unl.edu> X-Sender: pmurray@unlserve.unl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Pam Murray Subject: Deutsche Bank DuPont Report Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 This past summer I pulled off the Web a report on DuPont by Deutsche Banc Alex. Brown titled "Ag Biotech: Thanks, But No Thanks?" dated July 12, 1999. I think it was referenced in a sanet e-mail. Now I can't find the URL or the reference in sanet-mg archives. Perhaps someone got permission to post the report somewhere - maybe for a given period of time, because I've tried accessing it via the Deutsche Web site, but reports are blocked. I have a hard copy of the report (which I've shared with some professors here who have commented positively on it's scope and quality). Can anyone help me on whether it is still available electronically for public access? Thanks. *********************** Pam Murray, Coordinator Center for Grassland Studies and Center for Sustainable Agricultural Systems PO Box 830949 University of Nebraska Lincoln, NE 68583-0949 phone: 402-472-9383 fax: 402-472-4104 e-mail: pmurray1@unl.edu http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/cgs http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/csas To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 16:57:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29523 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26539 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:22:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26519 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0149DA5B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:20:01 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 5 Nov 99 16:20:01 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 5 Nov 99 16:19:55 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:19:45 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: USDA organic certification In-reply-to: <199911011730.MAA23992@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind in reading the Sanet posts. I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in international markets, and those who only want domestic certification could opt for a cheaper private label certification? It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to have a national organic program that is put out by the government. This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for this sort of two-tier certifying. I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended for export. These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in this scenario. Anita Anita Graf Market Development of National Organic Products University of Georgia make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 18:23:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00556 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22903 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:51:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22874 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03703 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id QAA02155; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:49:17 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma001240; Fri, 5 Nov 99 16:48:20 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:48:19 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFCC@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Roberto Verzola'" Cc: Sanet Subject: RE: Do-it-yourself corn breeding Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:48:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Roberto, >> Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and >> organized enough to come up with superior varieties, what is >> wrong with my protecting them from people who would steal >> them? Don't I have a right to earn a living? > Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you > mean, steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, > didn't you? Once you release your breeding results, they're > back to the public pool, and the public is entitled to use them. > That's what all farmers have been doing. Earning a living has > nothing to do with stealing from the public pool. Breeders take publicly available genetic resources and use them as raw material to breed improved varieties. They do this by sexually recombining existing varieties, often adding in exotic breeding material from public collections. Hidden diversity is made manifest by crossing and selfing. Finding the few genetic combinations that are truly better than existing varieties is very difficult and expensive. Imagine dealing out hands of cards, but instead of a deck of 52, using a deck of 52,000. So you deal out (with replacement), say, 20,000 hands, each with thousands of cards. only a very, very few of these are winning hands. Each hand is analogous to a line produced by selfing the progeny of a cross. You cannot just LOOK at the hand, you have to grow plots of each one and compare its yield (and other agronomic properties) to existing varieties to see if it is a winner. This is done at hundreds of locations around the world to gain enough confidence in the comparisons, and determine adaptation. This is a lot of work, and it is possible to steal a variety. So the varieties we come up with are truly new, not stolen from the public pool. The resources, the raw material, is still there. Do you want some of these varieties? you can get them from the USDA: http://www.ars-grin.gov Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 5 20:40:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02113 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05537 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:57:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05433 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-155.rain.org [198.68.144.155]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C85F61770; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:55:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf27e9$4af50ca0$9b9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" , References: Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:55:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 thank you for you thoughts and ideas I read in the CCOF newsletter that "The USDA's Meat Certification and Grading Program (MCGP) has verified that CCOF conforms to the basic requirements of ISO -65, the international standard for certification programs. The approval means that CCOF-certified products should now be approved for entry into European Union (EU) countries. The EU organic regulations require imported organic products to be certified by an organization that meets the ISO-65 Standards. Other ISO-65 approved certification programs includes Farm Verified Organic-Quality Assurance International and Organic Growers and Buyers Association . Several other certifier site evaluations and approvals are pending. so u see all I need is CCOF or QAI or OG or FVO and I can voluntary join them if I need that. easy see how easy things work out . so why make a federal case out of it? why the extra state Ca. tax and the Fed Tax and the force certification for all and the once size fits all and the pay pay pay year after year. give us a USDA definition of organic and lets get on with business you don't have to take us over you don't have to make this any harder . you see Anita we are making it work out now . this should also make for more reciprocity between group of certifiers and a lot has changed . it has been years when the USDA started this and now the government has seen it does not want to be a burden to small folks with extra paper work (save those trees) and their non funded state and fed. mandates so now is the time to stop the Ca. Ag. organic tax if one is already certified by a recognized certifier. and it is time the Fed. gov. lets business take care of itself, as it is doing for itself now quite will thank-you. . ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 8:19 AM Subject: USDA organic certification > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) > > However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the > products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near > international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they > want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, > internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, > etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic > Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous > and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for > this sort of two-tier certifying. > > I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look > alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide > range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with > the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a > bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra > certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at > the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic > label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can > produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended > for export. > > These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck > chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to > say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer > Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose > to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a > "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this > new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann > mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture > curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in > this scenario. > > Anita > > Anita Graf > Market Development of National Organic Products > University of Georgia > > make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 00:20:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03995 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA08356 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08283 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03486; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13705; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: USDA organic certification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic - > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence - > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) Yes, and It is one that makes not a particle of sense. How would "they" (those participating in such a "lucrative" scheme) expect small or medium-sized organic farmers, opposing mandatory certification, to be fooled by such a ploy. 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically produced products - defines the O word 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to export his product(s) overseas or at home 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be otherwise? So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" part. Curious, Lawrence > > However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the > products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near > international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they > want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, > internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, > etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic > Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous > and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for > this sort of two-tier certifying. > > I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look > alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide > range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with > the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a > bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra > certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at > the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic > label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can > produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended > for export. > > These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck > chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to > say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer > Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose > to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a > "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this > new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann > mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture > curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in > this scenario. > > Anita > > Anita Graf > Market Development of National Organic Products > University of Georgia > > make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 01:01:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04527 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 01:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10200 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:36:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10122 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: HLPizza@aol.com Received: from HLPizza@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 7XAAa26723 (4403) for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:33:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.61fd46d5.255517a4@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:33:24 EST Subject: What would YOU say about the WTO? To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 I've been invited to speak with Rep. Wu of Oregon about the WTO. Is there anything you'd like me to tell him for you? Sorry about the short notice. Dear David, I am writing to invite you to the First Congressional District Trade Roundtable on the Seattle World Trade Organization Ministerial. The WTO Ministerial is an international conference to review and negotiate world trade rules. The roundtable discussion on the WTO that I am hosting Looking forward to having you all attend the roundtable with Congressman Wu on Saturday. Glad you will be there, David. Are you representing a specific organization? Or what issues do you think you will discuss at the roundtable? Sincerely, Jessica Hamilton Field Representative Congressman David Wu My reply: My main concern(s) is the impact of the WTO on our food supply (resources). How WTO policy impacts farmers and biodiversity. I represent myself but also speak a father of two, as a chef, small business owner and a friend of family farmers. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 01:27:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04690 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 01:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22163 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:55:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22122 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.175] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:53:03 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:51:25 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17994.991105@acnet.net> To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: USDA organic certification and the way things really are In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 (long - enough) Hello Anita, nice to hear from you again. Interesting idea, but as you previously discovered, many countries (including Mexico) lack a developed market for Organic food products and their patterns of consumption are also much different than those prevalent in the U.S. I am unaware of the existence of a significant market for organic products outside of the US/Canada, Europe and to a lesser degree, Japan. (While Japan seems to show a strong preference for foods free from toxic elements, specifically "organic" food as such is of less relative importance than it is in the U.S. and Europe). Neither Japan nor Europe adheres to US standards. On the contrary, in order for US products to find acceptance in those markets, they must adhere to the respective Japanese or European standard. In view of this, within the context of foreign trade, OFPA is important NOT in the sense that you suggest, but rather for the purpose of regulating IMPORTED organic products. I'm sure you're aware of OFPA's stipulation to the effect that any country exporting organic food products to the USA MUST have a similar (to OFPA) set of regulations in place, in order for those products to be given entry into the US. THIS is exactly why Mexico has such a structure in place, and that is exactly why none of the government people you talked to before consulting with the writer of this note, knew anything about the existence of such regulations. They simply are not intended for the Mexican market, they were created to satisfy the requirement OFPA imposes on imported goods, so that Mexico can export organic tropical and off season fruits and vegetables to the US market, the biggest market in the world for organic products, and one that continues to grow exponentially. (I recall explaining this to you many months - over a year - ago. Perhaps being the "Market Development of National Organic Products" person there at the U of G has made assimilating it more difficult). In order for the OFPA legislation enacted en 1990 to actually take effect and become implemented, several significant issues that remain unresolved must be successfully dealt with. These include: What is the proper role of the federal government in relation to the cultivation and marketing of organic food products, and how can it perform that role without preventing farmers, consumers and others from exercising their right to the freedoms that the constitution guarantees them? (Among others): The freedom of speech (to impart and receive meaningful and truthful information), freedom of association and the freedom to earn a gainful living! When one is dealing with the right to drive on public roads and highways, governments can limit the right to drive on those thoroughfares to those holding current licenses issued by that state. But even this obviously appropriate privilege of governments (after all, they own the roads and have clear purview over public safety issues), becomes complicated when they must respect the licenses of drivers in transit who reside in different state or country. And where private property is concerned, governments are even further removed from holding authority over the events that occur there. The problem with OFPA is that it didn't address the appropriate task, that of arriving at a widely held consensus defining a consistent, national minimum threshold for organic products and then (and only then) have that consensus become written into law, to (hopefully) make the meaning and quality of organic foods more precise and (presumably) minimize abuses, while upholding the newly and more precisely defined standards. But no, that hasn't happened (& from the looks of things it may NEVER be accomplished, but let's not be pessimistic). Instead, the law was created but the task has yet to be done. What happened was, the legislature decided to a create a CONTROL mechanism for something that it (collectively) clearly failed to minimally understand, and the same mentality that gave us conventional agricultural practices, gave us OFPA. (Should we be surprised at that)? The concepts OFPA puts forth: Dominate (or appear to) that which you neither fully identify with or comprehend, manipulate (rather than work with or sustain) it until it reflects your own limitations and contradictions, fence it off and box it in (rather than encourage or help it grow), chop it up, make it change it's nature and direction, poison it, make it much more complicated (and more expensive) that it needs to be, until it becomes incapable of performing the function for which it was originally intended, created, and/or evolved, create doubt and place the burden of proof on those that least deserve it... AM I OR AM I NOT TELLING IT LIKE IT IS? Instead of directing it's energies toward reaching a consensus and arriving at a working definition of "organic" that's consistent with the tradition, spirit and principles and practice of organic agriculture, a definition that would legally define the State of Being Organic, the legislation decided to emphasize: That which is organic is organic when I or my cronies say it is. You bet. And then the emperor said: How do you like my new clothes? (Probably made with organically grown cotton, invisible except to the truly enlightened). Instead of being a big help, what resulted was a big cop out - a gross abdication of responsibility. A convoluted trip to nowhere. And this dear readers, is all that lies behind the decision to control the O word (as if that were where the answer was to be found). Instead of doing the job at hand, someone wanted to put it off and create a bureaucracy around that. Anyone here really believe that this is going to function? OFPA didn't put much stock in or give much attention to defining the State of Being, it elevated the certification and the "Word" that the certification certifies. However, the truth (State of Being) is not in the certification, and certifying something doesn't make it so. The certification simply states that whoever certified verifies, confirms a given claim. However, a more substantial foundation is required for any real degree of security. Otherwise, we have a closed circuit here. The opportunity for further recourse must exist, and must be grounded in a both congruent set of principles and the method that can be used to confirm this for the process of certification, but not for creating the State of Being, which precedes this. The certification can't confirm the State of Being, only that the certifier himself followed a given set of procedures for arriving at the conclusion he arrived at. The methods for legally determining the State of Being must ALSO be defined, as well as the procedures that determine when and if doing that is appropriate or necessary, but this is not related to the certification (although it could be, if the certification was suspect) so much as to a separate claim instituted by an interested party. In other words, this event can occur ONLY as a result of a claim being made, which itself must conform to a reasonable standard. Sal's point is that the interested party who institutes a claim should bear the cost of same, if his claim is not substantiated. Otherwise, the innocent are being prejudged as guilty, and in fact this is exactly what is happening. Things are turned around. And my point is that words are pointers to States of Being, and not subject to decrees (or acts) that lose track or their purpose. They are not so easily controlled as public, governmentally owned highways. They have a life and traditions of their own, that spring from the people that created and used them. Yes dear friends, that is how the leopard got it's spots, the USA got it's OFPA, sanet got this post, and the U of G got ... -------------- Friday, November 05, 1999, 10:19:45 AM, Anita Graf wrote: AGS> Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind AGS> in reading the Sanet posts. AGS> I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR AGS> EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in AGS> international markets, and those who only want domestic certification AGS> could opt for a cheaper private label certification? AGS> It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national AGS> standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without AGS> national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, AGS> less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not AGS> have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the AGS> EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get AGS> national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic AGS> label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the AGS> Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me AGS> repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to AGS> have a national organic program that is put out by the government. AGS> This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life AGS> more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and AGS> potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence AGS> and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and AGS> who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM AGS> or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) AGS> However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the AGS> products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near AGS> international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they AGS> want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, AGS> internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, AGS> etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic AGS> Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous AGS> and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for AGS> this sort of two-tier certifying. AGS> I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look AGS> alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide AGS> range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with AGS> the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a AGS> bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra AGS> certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at AGS> the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic AGS> label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can AGS> produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended AGS> for export. AGS> These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck AGS> chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to AGS> say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer AGS> Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose AGS> to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a AGS> "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this AGS> new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann AGS> mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture AGS> curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in AGS> this scenario. AGS> Anita AGS> Anita Graf AGS> Market Development of National Organic Products AGS> University of Georgia AGS> make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com AGS> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command AGS> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command AGS> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". AGS> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command AGS> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". AGS> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: AGS> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 07:38:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06454 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23883 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:12:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from server1.mich.com (IDENT:root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23823 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.75.116.132] (pm011-020.dialip.mich.com [207.75.116.132]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA13974; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:10:13 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:10:13 -0500 X-Sender: donald@mail.mich.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Will Arnold" From: donald@mich.com (Donald E Davison) Subject: Let's move Congress back home to where they belong. Cc: "'Anita Graf (Staff)'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Walker Bennett Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Reply to Will's political change post. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 11/06/99 Dear Will, Your suggestion is good as far as it goes, but let's go all the way to the final step - let's move Congress back home to where they belong. Let us have every member of Comgress remain in the district or state in which they were elected. Every member would be online. Every committe would be connect via a subscription list. They could feel the pulse of the people in their district 52 weeks of the year. One more thing - the way they vote should be changed. Instead of a yes or no vote, they should be required to vote both a Percent-Yes and a Percent-No according to the feelings of all the people in their district. If they are going to represent the district then they should be representing all the people in the district, and all the people do not vote 100% Yes or 100% No. Yours for better government, Donald ------------Forwarded Letter ----------- From: "Will Arnold" Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:36:00 -0700 Subject: RE: political change A few years ago I heard someone on NPR relate how they thought if we moved the decision makers out of Washington D.C. and held legislative sessions every two years in different states we would remove much of the corruption we now face. I really liked the idea. The scerio would go something like this. For the House we elect representatives to serve four year terms, (Senate stays 6) butboth houses only meet every two years. Each state makes available on a rotational basis their state houses for a 12 week session. All business not accomplished would table over until next session. The President has the authority to call special sessions in times of dire need that would meet in D. C.. Committee work ( where I think the most damage is done anyway would begin over e-mail) and then the last four weeks of the normal yearly session (off year) would be devoted to this work in various sites around the U.S.. I don't know what we would do with all those buildings but maybe we could quit building new ones for quite some time and rent out the others for other purposes. Of course this is pie in the sky but I liked the concept. Will Will Arnold Regional Extension Specialist/RC&D Community Development, P.O. Box 157, Hugo CO 80821 warnold@coop.ext.colostate.edu +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | Q U O T A T I O N | | "Democracy is a beautiful thing, | | except that part about letting just any old yokel vote." | | - Age 10 | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ N E W S L E T T E R Worldwide Direct Democracy Newsletter Four Issues per Year by Postal Mail Cost per year: Czech Republic 200 Kc, Europe 12 DM Outside of Europe $10 Make check payable to: Mr. Bohuslav Binka Mail to: Mr. Bohuslav Binka Bellova 15 Brno 623 00 Czech Republic - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - N E W D E M O C R A C Y A Source of Study Material for Political Change http://www.mich.com/~donald - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 11:07:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07862 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03657 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:43:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03649 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-119.rain.org [198.68.144.119]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A27761774 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:41:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000e01bf286d$687975c0$779044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: Subject: Fw: Safety Issues, did FDA do it right? (fwd) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:41:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Permaculture WA Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 11:06 PM Subject: Safety Issues, did FDA do it right? (fwd) > >From the "Just in case you're concerned about food safety, corparate and > governement ethics, etc." - > Here are three messages from the Dairy Action Discussion list in which > information is relayed about what may be some unethical/immoral actions by > the Monsanto company, concerningf their Genetically Modified Organism (GMO) > called "Round-up Ready" crops. The issue of human safety is at question > here, also. It also goes in to the issue of whether or not the > controversial injectable, genetically engineered hormone reportedly used by > 20% of the nation's dairy farmers - rbGH/rbST - was given adequate > scientific scrutiny as to human safety. There are journal citations to > follow-up. > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DairyAction] Monsanto strong arming Ag industry > > > >From: "John Bunting" > > > >DAD, > >> > >> Below is an interesting story from Canada about Monsanto strong arming > >> the ag industry. There is even some unsubstantiated claims of Monsanto > >> spraying Roundup on soybean fields without authorization to see if their > >> Roundup Ready seed was being used. There is a small part on rBST > >> towards the end of the story. > >> > >> http://www.canbus.com/magazine_items/oct08_99_frankenstein.html > >> > >> Mike Bernhardt > >> Dairy Farmer > >> Park City MT > > > >I think this is the important part of this story: > > > >Perhaps the best hope for injecting consumer confidence in GM food in North > >America is reminding consumers that it passed through the FDA and Health > >Canada approval process. But while erecting the regulatory system as a > >monument to GM food's safety is the industry's greatest strength, it's also > >a glaring weakness. For while the industry maintains the decision to > >classify GM food as substantially equivalent to non-GM food was grounded in > >science, recent leaked documents show that some FDA scientists had concerns > >about approving GM food, that they weren't convinced it was safe. Not only > >is the FDA now being sued by the Washington, DC-based Center for Food > >Safety, but University of Minnesota ecology professor Philip Regal, an > >expert in the field, sees more trouble in the offing. When it came to > >testing GM foods, the government "just gave up," Regal says. "The > >technological problems of testing were too difficult. A whole range of GMOs > >[genetically modified organisms] were coming in and they had no way to test > >for them. The expense would be astronomical. The general idea was, 'We'll > >just have to risk it. If the people want progress they're going to have to > >be guinea pigs.' " > > > > > >John Bunting > >Dairy Farmer > >Treadwell, NY > > > Reply-to: DairyAction@onelist.com > Subject: Re: [DairyAction] Monsanto strong arming Ag industry > > From: John Piwowar > > At 11:50 AM 1999.10.24 -0400, John bunting quoted a document which read, in > part: > > For while the industry maintains the decision to > >classify GM food as substantially equivalent to non-GM food was grounded in > >science, recent leaked documents show that some FDA scientists had concerns > >about approving GM food, that they weren't convinced it was safe. > > John and DAD, > I'm totally baffled here. What are the safety concerns of food made from > GM plants or animals? > > > > John S. Piwowar > 127 Bitner Road > Uniontown, Pa. 15401-9806 > vmdairy@usaor.net > > > From: "John Bunting" > > DAD, > > > From: John Piwowar > > > > At 11:50 AM 1999.10.24 -0400, John bunting quoted a document which read, > in > > part: > > > For while the industry maintains the decision to > > >classify GM food as substantially equivalent to non-GM food was grounded > in > > >science, recent leaked documents show that some FDA scientists had > concerns > > >about approving GM food, that they weren't convinced it was safe. > > > > John and DAD, > > I'm totally baffled here. What are the safety concerns of food made from > > GM plants or animals? > > > > > > > > John S. Piwowar > > I don't know what if any the specific safety concerns referred to are. I do > know that the safety of rBST was not based on any science. It was based on > very little and dated study on naturally occuring bovine growth hormone > injected into humans. This study was limited to observing changes in growth > of the subjects. FDA deemed that rBST was substantially the same as > naturally occuring bovine growth hormone and therefore with limited study of > that made the *assumption* no further study was needed. I think it is fair > to say that any scientist would objectively have concerns over the safety on > decisions made by *assumptions*. > > You might check the following: > "Safety of Bovine Growth Hormone," SCIENCE Vol. 251 (January 18, 1991), pg. > 256, and FDA responded in SCIENCE Vol. 251 (January 18, 1991), pgs. 256-257. > > T. B. Mepham, "Public health implications of bovine somatotrophin [sic] use > in dairying: discussion paper," JOURNAL OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF MEDICINE > Vol. 85 (December 1992), pgs. 736-739. > > Melvin M. Grumbach and others, "NIH Technology Assessment Conference > Statement on Bovine Somatotropin," JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL > ASSOCIATION Vol. 265 No. 11 (March 20, 1991), pgs. 1423-1425. > > FDA seems to have made a decision to risk using the public as guinea pigs > with no *contol* on the experiment. Some would like to think that the EU > opposition is grounded upon, trade barriers, emotional reaction on BSE or > delaying tactic. I think a careful reading of their study demonstrates a > totally different approach to risk/benefit analysis. There is no clear > "public" benefit to rBST and the risk continues to be unknown. A basic > scientific rule is: "Absence of proof does not constitute proof of absence". > > > John Bunting > Dairy Farmer > Treadwell, NY > > at the end of each message to DAD. > > > +Peace, > Willie > > Willie Gibson > Extension Specialist - Sustainable Agriculture > University of Vermont Extension PHONE: 802/223-2389 ext.16 > 617 Comstock Road Suite 5 FAX: 802/223-6500 > Berlin, VT 05602-9194 EMAIL: Willie.Gibson@uvm.edu > > WEB SITES TO EXPLORE...... > The University of Vermont Extension Homepage > http://ctr.uvm.edu/ext/ > The Vermont Crops and Soils Homepage > http://pss.uvm.edu/vtcrops/index.html > The UVM Agricultural Testing Lab Homepage > http://pss.uvm.edu/ag_testing/index.htm > Center for Sustainable Agriculture at UVM > http://www.uvm.edu/~susagctr/welcome.html > > "I can do what you can't do, and you can do what I can't do. Together > we can do great things." > - Mother Teresa of Calcutta > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 12:12:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08437 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13712 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:49:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13611 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:53:16 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.129] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC08937C01FA; Sat, 06 Nov 1999 10:49:12 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 16:47:08 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Civics lesson --- off topic thread (was: Let's move Congress ) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:10:13 -0500, Donald E Davison wrote: > Let us have every member of Comgress remain in the district or state >in which they were elected. > Every member would be online. > Every committe would be connect via a subscription list. > They could feel the pulse of the people in their district 52 weeks of >the year. > > One more thing - the way they vote should be changed. Instead of a yes >or no vote, they should be required to vote both a Percent-Yes and a >Percent-No according to the feelings of all the people in their district. > If they are going to represent the district then they should be >representing all the people in the district, and all the people do not vote >100% Yes or 100% No. Sorry to be a bit blunt, but statements like these display a significant lack of understanding about (at least) American government. The politicians in Washington are *representatives,* not delegates. The system was designed specifically to diminish the force of *day-to-day* public opinion in the crafting of our laws. The Senate, especially, was designed to incorporate a significant lag time by virtue of the longer (and staggered) terms of office. The framers of the American Constitution understood (well, and quite correctly) that the greatest threat of tyranny faced by the American people was tyranny on the part of *government,* and most particularly a tyranny of the majority. That is the basis of the balance of powers laid out in the Constitution. Direct democracy, or near substitutes such as suggested in Mr. Davidson's post, is perhaps the speediest and most direct path to tyranny of the majority, if for no other reason than that the decisions arising therefrom are subject to the *unbuffered* whims of day-to-day public opinion. No quality is so deeply lacking in American current affairs than true *leadership.* Government by public opinion poll and focus group --- brought to the fore by the current administration --- is not leadership of any sort. Rather, it is *followership.* The dithering and flip flops on everything from agriculture to defence to taxation policy merely reflect the innate problems of government by followership. To embed the system of followership in the American way of government would only insure an institutionalisation of the lack of direction we see from both Congress and the Executive. The only leadership we're seeing is from the one branch of American government that should be *following* ---- the judiciary. Justice should follow the laws and Constitution as written, that's their job, and activist judges of all political stripes do Americans a great disservice when they legislate from the bench. Given the drift towards followership in American politics these days, activist judges (again, of all political stripes) are merely filling a void that never should have been allowed to develop in the first place. The US Constitution is by far the oldest working constitution in the world. Second place used to be held by Sweden (1809, I think) and third by Canada (1867). Both those nations promulgated new constitutions in the early 1980s. That the US Baby Boom generation (at least its earlier cohorts) have strong tendencies towards both self-righteousness and authoritarianism is not particularly comforting. Given that they are arriving in the decade of their peak political power, the fact that American government is often slow and inefficient should be seen as a *triumph* of the US Constitution, not a flaw. Quick, 'efficient' governments can become quickly and efficiently tyrannical, especially when those governing have that tendency in the first place. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 13:44:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09452 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24398 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:03:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from purple.tmn.com (purple.tmn.com [205.177.137.5]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24292 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from tmn.com ([164.106.173.223]) by purple.tmn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25954; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:57:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38246BD5.C4445EBC@tmn.com> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 12:56:38 -0500 From: tabeles Reply-To: tabeles@tmn.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Civics lesson- a critical topic for sanet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 Bluestem Associates wrote, in a small part: > The politicians in Washington are *representatives,* not delegates. The > system was designed specifically to diminish the force of *day-to-day* > public opinion in the crafting of our laws. The Senate, especially, was > designed to incorporate a significant lag time by virtue of the longer > (and staggered) terms of office. > > The framers of the American Constitution understood (well, and quite > correctly) that the greatest threat of tyranny faced by the American > people was tyranny on the part of *government,* and most particularly a > tyranny of the majority. That is the basis of the balance of powers > laid out in the Constitution. Direct democracy, or near substitutes > such as suggested in Mr. Davidson's post, is perhaps the speediest and > most direct path to tyranny of the majority, if for no other reason > than that the decisions arising therefrom are subject to the > *unbuffered* whims of day-to-day public opinion. ----------------------------------------------------- Bart's entire post is worth serious reflection. As he states, the framers of the Constitution were indeed concerned about the uninformed populus and saw the elected representatives as individuals who had a serious commitment to governance and the time and capabilities to act in an informed manner for the long term benefit of the country. As a group, these founding fathers had reservations as to who should even have the ability to vote and thus we have a republic and not a democracy (but then, even the Greeks did not have a true democracy either) Given the current participation in public debate and in the election of officials, one may even believe that the founding fathers were prescient. Given the willingness of the public to become informed and to actively participate, even at the local level, one might also have serious questions. Then, again, we must ask, in relationship to sustainable agriculture, whether this wisdom of our representatives ever existed in spirit or in fact. This becomes questionable when one looks at the history of the legislation which has been enacted in support of taking this country from sea to shining sea in a couple of centuries and has, by legislative fiat created and promoted the implementation of the current policies which are and have been impacting on the entire past, present and future of agriculture in the US and, to a large extent, globally. thoughts? tom abeles To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 6 16:33:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10975 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18693 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:06:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18610 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20980 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17462; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm5-18.nidlink.com [216.18.141.25]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA20518; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:04:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911062104.NAA20518@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 13:06:10 -0800 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Request for Deutsche Bank Biotech Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 We got permission from Deutsche Bank to post the full report in PDF format, and so you and anyone can read the whole report with references, caveats, etc. It is a very interesting document. On Ag BioTech Info Net (www.biotech-info.net) go to -- http://www.biotech-info.net/Deutsche.html Since posting the report, over 4,000 copies have been downloaded -- nearly 1,000 to people in the ag chemical industry!! Thanks to the Deutsche Bank for making it available. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 7 13:26:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20336 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02122 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02033 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20157; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05922; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:01:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:01:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: USDA organic certification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? > > > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic > - > > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > - > > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) > > Yes, and It is one that makes not a particle of sense. How would "they" > (those participating in such a "lucrative" scheme) expect small or > medium-sized organic farmers, opposing mandatory certification, to > be fooled by such a ploy. > > 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically > produced products - defines the O word > 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA > standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards > 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the > certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to > export his product(s) overseas or at home > 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product > gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be > otherwise? > > So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big > mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" part. > > Curious, > > Lawrence And, as an afterthought, it occured to me that it would be nice for our government to tell its citizens that USDA Certified Organic means "your government says its really organic, go ahead and buy with confidence". However, they have not bothered with such quality assurance for conventionally-grown products to the tune of USDA Certified Analysis of Produxt X reveals the following levels of pesticide residues or breakdown products thereof OR the following levels of contaminants from materials used in production other than pesticides found in this product OR our environmental impact study revealed that production of this box of soy doodles will contribute % to degradation/contamination/desertification of square feet of farm soil. Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees why should it be allowed to force the burden of mandatory organic certification on small farmers trying to maintain a favorable position in our free enterprise system for the benefit of consumers IN OTHER COUNTRIES? Take the paranoia about cheating farmers and feed it to the birds. What about the farmers allowed to cheat by using vast arrays of poisons to grow their crops, without a thought about its impact on the health of the consumers - when half or 75% of the time none of it is needed, only to increase windfall profits for the agrichemical industry. LL > > However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the > > products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near > > international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they > > want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, > > internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, > > etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic > > Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous > > and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for > > this sort of two-tier certifying. > > > > I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look > > alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide > > range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with > > the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a > > bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra > > certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at > > the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic > > label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can > > produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended > > for export. > > > > These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck > > chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to > > say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer > > Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose > > to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a > > "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this > > new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann > > mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture > > curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in > > this scenario. > > > > Anita > > > > Anita Graf > > Market Development of National Organic Products > > University of Georgia > > > > make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From Craig.Harris@ssc.msu.edu Sun Nov 7 14:05:57 1999 Received: from sscntex.ssc.msu.edu (ssc.msu.edu [35.8.70.66]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20672 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by SSCNTEX with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:06:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Harris, Craig" To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" , "'Lawrence F. London, Jr.'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: USDA organic certification Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:06:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 "Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees . . ." i think the premise here is false . . . usda does certify both the safety and various qualitative attributes of meat and eggs . . . usda establishes standards and grades for most other commodities, and, in cooperation with the states, operates inspection programs for those commodities . . . where inspection and grading is done by a private firm, it must still conform to usda standards, and not to conform is a violation of federal law in general the cost of the usda services are actually paid by the processor or first handler . . . presumably those costs are factored into the price which the processor or first handler offers the producer for the commodity . . . similarly, even if the first handler does the certification, presumably the cost is reflected in the price received by the grower thus the effect of the ofpa, if it is ever implemented, will be to bring organic commodities in line with other commodities, not to make organic commodities different from other commodities cheers, craig craig k harris department of sociology michigan state university 429b berkey hall east lansing michigan 48824-1111 tel: 517-355-5048 fax: 517-432-2856 > ---------- > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@metalab.unc.edu] > Sent: Sunday 7 November 1999 1:01 PM > To: Anita Graf (Staff) > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > > > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > > > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > > > > > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > > > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > > > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > > > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? > > > > > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > > > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > > > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > > > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > > > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > > > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > > > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic > > - > > > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > > > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > > > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > > > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > > > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > > > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > > > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > > - > > > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > > > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > > > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) > > > > Yes, and It is one that makes not a particle of sense. How would "they" > > (those participating in such a "lucrative" scheme) expect small or > > medium-sized organic farmers, opposing mandatory certification, to > > be fooled by such a ploy. > > > > 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically > > produced products - defines the O word > > 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA > > standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards > > 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the > > certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to > > export his product(s) overseas or at home > > 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product > > gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be > > otherwise? > > > > So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big > > mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" > part. > > > > Curious, > > > > Lawrence > > And, as an afterthought, it occured to me that it would be nice for > our government to tell its citizens that USDA Certified Organic means > "your government says its really organic, go ahead and buy with > confidence". However, they have not bothered with such quality > assurance for conventionally-grown products to the tune of USDA Certified > Analysis of Produxt X reveals the following levels of pesticide residues > or breakdown products thereof OR the following levels of contaminants > from materials used in production other than pesticides found in this > product OR our environmental impact study revealed that production of this > box of soy doodles will contribute % to > degradation/contamination/desertification of square feet of farm soil. > > Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the > > benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees why should it be > allowed to force the burden of mandatory organic certification on small > farmers trying to maintain a favorable position in our free enterprise > system for the benefit of consumers IN OTHER COUNTRIES? > > Take the paranoia about cheating farmers and feed it to the birds. > What about the farmers allowed to cheat by using vast arrays of poisons > to grow their crops, without a thought about its impact on the health of > the consumers - when half or 75% of the time none of it is needed, only > to increase windfall profits for the agrichemical industry. > > LL > > > However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the > > > products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near > > > international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they > > > want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, > > > internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, > > > etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic > > > Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous > > > and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for > > > this sort of two-tier certifying. > > > > > > I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look > > > alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide > > > range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with > > > the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a > > > bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra > > > certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at > > > the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic > > > label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can > > > produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended > > > for export. > > > > > > These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck > > > chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to > > > say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer > > > Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose > > > to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a > > > "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this > > > new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann > > > mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture > > > curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in > > > this scenario. > > > > > > Anita > > > > > > Anita Graf > > > Market Development of National Organic Products > > > University of Georgia > > > > > > make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 7 14:30:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20825 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15825 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:07:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sscntex.ssc.msu.edu (ssc.msu.edu [35.8.70.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15812 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by SSCNTEX with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:06:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Harris, Craig" To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" , "'Lawrence F. London, Jr.'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: USDA organic certification Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:06:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 "Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees . . ." i think the premise here is false . . . usda does certify both the safety and various qualitative attributes of meat and eggs . . . usda establishes standards and grades for most other commodities, and, in cooperation with the states, operates inspection programs for those commodities . . . where inspection and grading is done by a private firm, it must still conform to usda standards, and not to conform is a violation of federal law in general the cost of the usda services are actually paid by the processor or first handler . . . presumably those costs are factored into the price which the processor or first handler offers the producer for the commodity . . . similarly, even if the first handler does the certification, presumably the cost is reflected in the price received by the grower thus the effect of the ofpa, if it is ever implemented, will be to bring organic commodities in line with other commodities, not to make organic commodities different from other commodities cheers, craig craig k harris department of sociology michigan state university 429b berkey hall east lansing michigan 48824-1111 tel: 517-355-5048 fax: 517-432-2856 > ---------- > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@metalab.unc.edu] > Sent: Sunday 7 November 1999 1:01 PM > To: Anita Graf (Staff) > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > > > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > > > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > > > > > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > > > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > > > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > > > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? > > > > > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > > > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > > > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > > > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > > > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > > > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > > > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic > > - > > > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > > > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > > > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > > > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > > > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > > > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > > > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > > - > > > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > > > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > > > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) > > > > Yes, and It is one that makes not a particle of sense. How would "they" > > (those participating in such a "lucrative" scheme) expect small or > > medium-sized organic farmers, opposing mandatory certification, to > > be fooled by such a ploy. > > > > 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically > > produced products - defines the O word > > 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA > > standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards > > 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the > > certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to > > export his product(s) overseas or at home > > 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product > > gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be > > otherwise? > > > > So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big > > mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" > part. > > > > Curious, > > > > Lawrence > > And, as an afterthought, it occured to me that it would be nice for > our government to tell its citizens that USDA Certified Organic means > "your government says its really organic, go ahead and buy with > confidence". However, they have not bothered with such quality > assurance for conventionally-grown products to the tune of USDA Certified > Analysis of Produxt X reveals the following levels of pesticide residues > or breakdown products thereof OR the following levels of contaminants > from materials used in production other than pesticides found in this > product OR our environmental impact study revealed that production of this > box of soy doodles will contribute % to > degradation/contamination/desertification of square feet of farm soil. > > Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the > > benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees why should it be > allowed to force the burden of mandatory organic certification on small > farmers trying to maintain a favorable position in our free enterprise > system for the benefit of consumers IN OTHER COUNTRIES? > > Take the paranoia about cheating farmers and feed it to the birds. > What about the farmers allowed to cheat by using vast arrays of poisons > to grow their crops, without a thought about its impact on the health of > the consumers - when half or 75% of the time none of it is needed, only > to increase windfall profits for the agrichemical industry. > > LL > > > However, in most cases, I'd guess (don't have stats) that the > > > products of the vast majority of organic producers never get near > > > international markets. Even now, most producers know that if they > > > want to sell abroad, they better certify with one of the big, > > > internationally recognized certifiers like Oregon Tilth, QAI, OCIA, > > > etc. They wouldn't certify with Podunk Certified Organic > > > Organization, even though the standards with Podunk might be rigorous > > > and respectable. So I think that there is already a precident for > > > this sort of two-tier certifying. > > > > > > I think it should be recognized that not all organic producers look > > > alike. Bart has pointed out several time now that there is a wide > > > range of quality and integrity. So I guess we shouldn't do away with > > > the inspectors yet, as Sal suggests. But we could organize things a > > > bit and allocate extra costs to those who will benefit from extra > > > certification.. I don't see why a farmer who just wants to market at > > > the farmer's market or to national stores with a certified organic > > > label should pay the extra expenses incurred so that someone else can > > > produce a product (or an ingredient of a product) that is intended > > > for export. > > > > > > These are some of my thoughts as to the arrangement of the deck > > > chairs, as long as we're consigned to life on the Titanic. I have to > > > say that if we have the choice of changing boats, I much prefer > > > Roberto's idea of putting the inspection burden on those who choose > > > to farm with chemicals. Maybe the "sick" farm should have to get a > > > "prescription" for his agro-chemicals! And while I'm designing this > > > new LIFE boat.... Let's put the ideas of that design guy that Ann > > > mentioned in charge of the Land Grant Schools of Agriculture > > > curriculae. I just love the whole change of perspecitive offered in > > > this scenario. > > > > > > Anita > > > > > > Anita Graf > > > Market Development of National Organic Products > > > University of Georgia > > > > > > make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 7 14:46:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20891 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00584 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00508 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20790; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07761; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:25:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:25:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: "Harris, Craig" cc: "Anita Graf (Staff)" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: USDA organic certification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Harris, Craig wrote: > "Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the > benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees . . ." > > i think the premise here is false . . . usda does certify both the safety > and various qualitative attributes of meat and eggs . . . usda establishes > standards and grades for most other commodities, and, in cooperation with > the states, operates inspection programs for those commodities . . . where > inspection and grading is done by a private firm, it must still conform to > usda standards, and not to conform is a violation of federal law That does not include vegetables, herbs, fruits, nuts and seeds, as you well know. Regarding meat: Remember the deaths of the poultry processing workers in the plant in Raeford, NC when the plant caught fire and workers were trapped inside because the exit doors were locked from the outside - the USDA plant inspectors had not done the job they were PAID to do, had hardly ever visited the plant. Despicable b......s. > in general the cost of the usda services are actually paid by the processor > or first handler . . . presumably those costs are factored into the price > which the processor or first handler offers the producer for the commodity . > . . similarly, even if the first handler does the certification, presumably > the cost is reflected in the price received by the grower This has nothing whatsoever to do with informing the public as to any contamination (pesticide residues constitute contamination, in case you weren't aware of this fact) from pesticides or soil supplements, i.e. toxic waste incinerator by products incorporated into fertilizer and sewage sludge, of marketed products. > thus the effect of the ofpa, if it is ever implemented, will be to bring > organic commodities in line with other commodities, not to make organic What do you mean by "in line"? > commodities different from other commodities Sure, organic and "other" commodities are both food. Organic food, though, needs a minimum standard clearly defined and enforced by government in an impartial and fair manner. What do you mean by "different". > cheers, > > craig > > > craig k harris > department of sociology What is your agricultural background? > michigan state university > 429b berkey hall > east lansing michigan 48824-1111 > tel: 517-355-5048 > fax: 517-432-2856 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From sals@rain.org Sun Nov 7 21:20:44 1999 Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23772 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-121.rain.org [198.68.144.121]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EFF0361752; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf298f$d6702880$799044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Harris, Craig" , "Anita Graf (Staff)" , "'Lawrence F. London, Jr.'" Cc: References: Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Harris, Craig To: Anita Graf (Staff) ; 'Lawrence F. London, Jr.' Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: RE: USDA organic certification > "Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the > benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees . . ." > . . where > inspection and grading is done by a private firm, it must still conform to > usda standards, and not to conform is a violation of federal law yes and I am getting tired of this we pay for the grading and inspection like everyone else now you want to put a extra tax on us. sure there are grading laws and we have to follow them sure there are pesticide regestration also and we also pay those when and if we buy pesticides so yes and organic growers have to follow those laws already. if I sell lemons I have to pay the lemon commodities tax the grading tax like all growers what your talking about is a extra tax on me above and be on what other growers have to pay because those lemons are organic and a extra tax because that apple is organic you can't see that this is a grading tax on top of a grading tax . > in general the cost of the usda services are actually paid by the processor > or first handler . . . presumably those costs are factored into the price > which the processor or first handler offers the producer for the commodity . > . . similarly, even if the first handler does the certification, presumably > the cost is reflected in the price received by the grower yes organic growers pay that too we are no different what you want us poor growers to do is pay for that service and a extra tax for organicness of the fruit . double and triple taxation with out representation I might add. if Ca. they are double and triple dipping from organic growers now what you are saying is another layer on top of the layers already. any fool can see that . I know when it come time to pay all these bottom feeders every year I feel it. don't u understand a regular meat raiser pay a usda tax and you want them to pay extra because they don't use hormones and GMO . you want them to pay more than regular growers . why why don't you trust organic grower and you trust chemicals growers in how the meat is raised. FRom the time this law was past till now a lot has happen and the law is not needed nor the extra fees. we don't do that any more you know force poor folks to pay extra fees and do extra paper work and hinder business . this is one business that is doing a great job of regulating it self. I can not sell to wholesalers now with out a certification . I can not sell over seas now without a certification. so this law will just be a extra unneeded tax on us that is not needed.. also if you charge our certifier money they will pass the cost on to us and that's another tax we don't need. what gives here this is bull. right now I have to pay the state of Ca. a certifier, a inspector . how many pencil pushing bureaucratic does one small organic grower have to pay off to be able to tell the truth. also I think one certification inspection at the transition period to make sure the new growers understands what organic is and then one inspection maybe every five years or so if nothing on the farm changes .. why make me pay all these folks over and over every year if my organicness is the same. what does the change in the year have to do with being organic . I was the same organic in 98 as 99 so why pay pay pay over and over for nothing. once one knows what organic is he should be left to grow organic . we are not such big liars that we need a yearly inspection what is that all about. you see the same stuff every years only I have to pay you to come over again and again and again to look at the same old same old.. what is that all about. . this is just a rip off they don't have to make life that hard on us because we grow organic. > thus the effect of the ofpa, if it is ever implemented, will be to bring > organic commodities in line with other commodities, not to make organic > commodities different from other commodities organic commodities are all the other commodities just grown organic so why charge us extra . what is your reasoning for all this burdening of the organic growers. lets get to the bottom line why you doing this to me I have done nothing wrong. cheers yourself. there is nothing cheerful to me in these years of being ripped off from folks that don't do nothing here but take my money. Where is the cheers in that. powertripers extortionist con men Mafia where is the farmers protection . > cheers, > > craig > > > craig k harris > department of sociology > michigan state university > 429b berkey hall > east lansing michigan 48824-1111 > tel: 517-355-5048 > fax: 517-432-2856 > > > > ---------- > > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@metalab.unc.edu] > > Sent: Sunday 7 November 1999 1:01 PM > > To: Anita Graf (Staff) > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > > To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" > > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > > > > > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > > > > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > > > > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > > > > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > > > > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? there already is and to ship international you have to be certified now > > > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > > > > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > > > > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > > > > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > > > > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > > > > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > > > > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic national standards are one thing fees and extra unneeded paper work is another > > > > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > > > > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > > > > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > > > > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > > > > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > > > > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > > > > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > > > - > > > > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > > > > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > > > > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) I hope you got my post about how the certifiers and the USDA are taking care of that now . > > > > > > 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically > > > produced products - defines the O word > > > 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA > > > standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards > > > 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the > > > certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to > > > export his product(s) overseas or at home > > > 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product > > > gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be > > > otherwise? > > > > > > So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big > > > mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" > > part. > > > > > > Curious, > > > > > > Lawrence > > > > And, as an afterthought, it occured to me that it would be nice for > > our government to tell its citizens that USDA Certified Organic means > > "your government says its really organic, go ahead and buy with > > confidence". However, they have not bothered with such quality > > assurance for conventionally-grown products to the tune of USDA Certified > > Analysis of Produxt X reveals the following levels of pesticide residues > > or breakdown products thereof OR the following levels of contaminants > > from materials used in production other than pesticides found in this > > product OR our environmental impact study revealed that production of this > > box of soy doodles will contribute % to > > degradation/contamination/desertification of square feet of farm soil. the head of the USDA said organic food is not safer than conventional food so what is the reasoning for this extra tax. this is getting old. other folks if they do paper work they get paid and you want me to do paper work you pay me. you want me to take time out of my day to show you around you pay me you slavemaster you you want to look get a search warrant its the American way. you want me to not use the word organic take the o and the r and the g and the a and the n and the i and the c out of the alphabet. as long as every one else gets to use those letters so should i. Give me a o O give me a r R give me a g G give me a a A give me a n N give me a i Eye give me a C SEE hehe what does that spell? hehe ORGANIC What does that Spell Organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic naw naw na naw naw I think I will say the word ORGANIC CINAGRO IS ORGANIC SPELLED BACKWARD BECAUSE YOU GET IT ALL BACKWARDS you make the contaminated pay and not the contaminator. backwards I think I will call my product CINAGRO in honor of the USDA that has everything backwards. what you make the organic grower do all growers must do. good for the goose good for the gander. From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 7 22:03:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24089 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16747 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:22:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16737 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-121.rain.org [198.68.144.121]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EFF0361752; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf298f$d6702880$799044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Harris, Craig" , "Anita Graf (Staff)" , "'Lawrence F. London, Jr.'" Cc: References: Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Harris, Craig To: Anita Graf (Staff) ; 'Lawrence F. London, Jr.' Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: RE: USDA organic certification > "Since, so far, USDA has not bothered certifying conventional crops for the > benefit of folks paying the salaries of its employees . . ." > . . where > inspection and grading is done by a private firm, it must still conform to > usda standards, and not to conform is a violation of federal law yes and I am getting tired of this we pay for the grading and inspection like everyone else now you want to put a extra tax on us. sure there are grading laws and we have to follow them sure there are pesticide regestration also and we also pay those when and if we buy pesticides so yes and organic growers have to follow those laws already. if I sell lemons I have to pay the lemon commodities tax the grading tax like all growers what your talking about is a extra tax on me above and be on what other growers have to pay because those lemons are organic and a extra tax because that apple is organic you can't see that this is a grading tax on top of a grading tax . > in general the cost of the usda services are actually paid by the processor > or first handler . . . presumably those costs are factored into the price > which the processor or first handler offers the producer for the commodity . > . . similarly, even if the first handler does the certification, presumably > the cost is reflected in the price received by the grower yes organic growers pay that too we are no different what you want us poor growers to do is pay for that service and a extra tax for organicness of the fruit . double and triple taxation with out representation I might add. if Ca. they are double and triple dipping from organic growers now what you are saying is another layer on top of the layers already. any fool can see that . I know when it come time to pay all these bottom feeders every year I feel it. don't u understand a regular meat raiser pay a usda tax and you want them to pay extra because they don't use hormones and GMO . you want them to pay more than regular growers . why why don't you trust organic grower and you trust chemicals growers in how the meat is raised. FRom the time this law was past till now a lot has happen and the law is not needed nor the extra fees. we don't do that any more you know force poor folks to pay extra fees and do extra paper work and hinder business . this is one business that is doing a great job of regulating it self. I can not sell to wholesalers now with out a certification . I can not sell over seas now without a certification. so this law will just be a extra unneeded tax on us that is not needed.. also if you charge our certifier money they will pass the cost on to us and that's another tax we don't need. what gives here this is bull. right now I have to pay the state of Ca. a certifier, a inspector . how many pencil pushing bureaucratic does one small organic grower have to pay off to be able to tell the truth. also I think one certification inspection at the transition period to make sure the new growers understands what organic is and then one inspection maybe every five years or so if nothing on the farm changes .. why make me pay all these folks over and over every year if my organicness is the same. what does the change in the year have to do with being organic . I was the same organic in 98 as 99 so why pay pay pay over and over for nothing. once one knows what organic is he should be left to grow organic . we are not such big liars that we need a yearly inspection what is that all about. you see the same stuff every years only I have to pay you to come over again and again and again to look at the same old same old.. what is that all about. . this is just a rip off they don't have to make life that hard on us because we grow organic. > thus the effect of the ofpa, if it is ever implemented, will be to bring > organic commodities in line with other commodities, not to make organic > commodities different from other commodities organic commodities are all the other commodities just grown organic so why charge us extra . what is your reasoning for all this burdening of the organic growers. lets get to the bottom line why you doing this to me I have done nothing wrong. cheers yourself. there is nothing cheerful to me in these years of being ripped off from folks that don't do nothing here but take my money. Where is the cheers in that. powertripers extortionist con men Mafia where is the farmers protection . > cheers, > > craig > > > craig k harris > department of sociology > michigan state university > 429b berkey hall > east lansing michigan 48824-1111 > tel: 517-355-5048 > fax: 517-432-2856 > > > > ---------- > > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@metalab.unc.edu] > > Sent: Sunday 7 November 1999 1:01 PM > > To: Anita Graf (Staff) > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > > To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" > > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > > Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > > > > > Excuse me if these ideas have already been covered. I am very behind > > > > in reading the Sanet posts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder why there couldn't be just a USDA "certified organic FOR > > > > EXPORT" program for those who want to be able to participate in > > > > international markets, and those who only want domestic certification > > > > could opt for a cheaper private label certification? there already is and to ship international you have to be certified now > > > > It seems to me that the most compelling reason for national > > > > standards is to facilitate international trade. For example, without > > > > national standards, trade with the EU is quite a bit more involved, > > > > less efficient (and for that reason more expensive) because we do not > > > > have a federal govt program, and there is always the chance that the > > > > EU will do what the Japanese have done and say "until you get > > > > national govt-instituted standards, we won't accept your organic national standards are one thing fees and extra unneeded paper work is another > > > > label." (This is what I have been told is the latest stand of the > > > > Japanese, though I don't have a reference for this info.) Let me > > > > repeat this: there is tremendous pressure from external markets to > > > > have a national organic program that is put out by the government. > > > > This is not something that AMS invented just to make everyone's life > > > > more difficult! Organic export markets are lucrative (and > > > > potentially even more so) so this is an important issue. (Lawrence > > > - > > > > and Sal, if you want to know why it is that the EU and Japan and > > > > who-knows-next wants a stamp of approval from USDA rather than IFOAM > > > > or OTA, that is a whole other discussion/dilema.) I hope you got my post about how the certifiers and the USDA are taking care of that now . > > > > > > 1) Government sets the standards for what constitutes organically > > > produced products - defines the O word > > > 2) Certifying organizations are forced by law to meet these USDA > > > standards or the may exceed, to any degree they choose, these standards > > > 3) Grower, if he wishes to sell to EU, Japan or wherever, hires the > > > certifier of his choice, gets certified and moves on to > > > export his product(s) overseas or at home > > > 4) EU or other, by buying GrowerX's CertifierX-certified product > > > gets "a stamp of approval from USDA" automatically. How could it be > > > otherwise? > > > > > > So, what could possibly be wrong with this system? Tell us what the big > > > mystery is all about, the "that is a whole other discussion/dilema" > > part. > > > > > > Curious, > > > > > > Lawrence > > > > And, as an afterthought, it occured to me that it would be nice for > > our government to tell its citizens that USDA Certified Organic means > > "your government says its really organic, go ahead and buy with > > confidence". However, they have not bothered with such quality > > assurance for conventionally-grown products to the tune of USDA Certified > > Analysis of Produxt X reveals the following levels of pesticide residues > > or breakdown products thereof OR the following levels of contaminants > > from materials used in production other than pesticides found in this > > product OR our environmental impact study revealed that production of this > > box of soy doodles will contribute % to > > degradation/contamination/desertification of square feet of farm soil. the head of the USDA said organic food is not safer than conventional food so what is the reasoning for this extra tax. this is getting old. other folks if they do paper work they get paid and you want me to do paper work you pay me. you want me to take time out of my day to show you around you pay me you slavemaster you you want to look get a search warrant its the American way. you want me to not use the word organic take the o and the r and the g and the a and the n and the i and the c out of the alphabet. as long as every one else gets to use those letters so should i. Give me a o O give me a r R give me a g G give me a a A give me a n N give me a i Eye give me a C SEE hehe what does that spell? hehe ORGANIC What does that Spell Organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic organic naw naw na naw naw I think I will say the word ORGANIC CINAGRO IS ORGANIC SPELLED BACKWARD BECAUSE YOU GET IT ALL BACKWARDS you make the contaminated pay and not the contaminator. backwards I think I will call my product CINAGRO in honor of the USDA that has everything backwards. what you make the organic grower do all growers must do. good for the goose good for the gander. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 00:00:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25211 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 00:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15852 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:32:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15796 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:35:56 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.114] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A237E300106; Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:31:51 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 04:29:49 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:31 -0800, Sal wrote: > why why don't you trust organic grower I trust organic growers. Not everyone selling food as organic, however, *is* an organic grower. There are a number of people who cheat. Guess what? They also lie. Just because someone *says* they're organic doesn't mean as much as it used to. Sal, as onerous as certification can be, would you really prefer to have 117 customers coming out to your farm and checking it in sufficient detail to decide if you're organic enough? Visitors can be a very expensive drain on your time, and may well end up costing you more that writing out a check for the certification agency. We got around it by limiting visitors to one field day per year. >maybe every five years or so if nothing on the farm changes .. why make me >pay all these folks over and over every year if my organicness is the same. >what does the change in the year have to do with being organic . I was the >same organic in 98 as 99 so why pay pay pay over and over for nothing. You know, when I was being inspected for certification I happily paid the fees to have another set of eyes look at what I was doing. Sure I was organic, but I definitely wasn't a perfect farmer, and having someone who had seen a lot of other farms helped me get better at what I was doing. BTW, at the time I was also *training* inspectors, so I knew at least as much about the deal as they did. They were *still* a good use of my money, whether or not I ever shipped a thing more than 5 miles from home. Just a reminder here. I think you and I are in pretty close agreement about USDA involvement. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 08:37:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28728 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08658 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:04:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08644 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA03578 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:02:48 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14696 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:05:05 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 8 Nov 99 13:57:17 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 8 Nov 99 13:56:33 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:56:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <109DB9675F8@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 hello glenn, >Since both of you live outside the USA, and see what's happening >here throught slightly different eyes, what do you see as the >building blocks for farmer first national certification? Do you >see leaders, friends or obvious single issues to pursue first: these are my personal opinions and experiences from here, as i'm not familiar with the american organic movement and you will be surprised, how often behavior of americans seems extremely strange to us europeans. it might be totally wrong under your conditions. first i'm highly surprised about the way government is involved in regulating your life. and i thought germany has a bureaucratic system ;-]. today i read in the newspaper, that califorians have to pay a charge of 100$, if they exchange radiators in their houses and the bill to reduce it or put away with it was stopped by the democrats and several CONSUMER organisations. government should only be involved in cases, where individuals might be harmed or as a arbitrator or better as a mediator, where people can't agree on important things of a society, but not in other cases. the old sentance of a greek philosopher comes to mind, which says, that government should never ever regulate something, which it cannot control or garantuee. there are 3 groups of consumers: a) those, who know you personally and with which you live more closely together in a community. this is the simplest and maybe most satisfying and most sustainable way of selling and dealing with. as selling healthy food is (as every other question concerning health) a very SENSIBLE thing, it depends on personal relations and mouth-to-mouth propaganda. you do not need an extra propaganda or some kind of PR. a certification is useless here and a waste of money you better spend somewhere else on your farm !! b) those, who do not know you, but do not live VERY far away (maybe your farm nearby a larger town or a city). here you will already see my doubts, if it is sustainable, if people are driving 40 or 50 miles to your farm to buy food for 3 or 5 days. the pollution from the gasoline will contradict any sustainability (the real price for environmental damage is 2-3$ a liter of gasoline) ! ignoring that, these people still are preferring organic food ! i think, i need not tell anyone, how to market your products. just make it reasonable to him, why he should buy especially at your farm... maybe take a look into the faith popcorn's book (the popcorn report), how to "cocoon" people. c) people farer away, which can only be reached by distribution channels. it's your individual decision, if you want to reach them, but remember: they are the majority. you only need to think about them, if you cannot make a living from direct marketing. and here starts, what i see as the largest problem: the ambiguity between consumers. they do not behave, like you would like them to do (meaning 100% supporters of the organic idea and consistant). i know people, who eat their dinner at some fast-food restaurant and in the evening go to a restaurant and insist on an nice organic supper, because it's healthier. if i can convince 100 consumers to buy 20% of their food organic, that's better than 10 people living for 100% on organic food. but a lot of organic farmers also try to sell their philosophy instead and only live in "inner circles of alumni" their slogan: entirely organic or nothing at all. organic farmers tend to be much less consume-orientated, more individual and environmental sensible than conventional ones (and I myself like their attitude very much), but do they need to tell others, that this is "the sacred way"?. here in germany there even is an entirely anthroposophic way of living and children's education behind the organic movement. that's ok, but organic farmers not only try to sell their fruits, but with them also their anthroposophic philosophy and that's something a lot of people dislike. they can think for themselfes and chances are, that sooner or later they come to the same conclusions all by themself. they do NOT care about your internal quarrels, whether 80 or 90% of the manure needs to be from your own farm. and these are USELESS quarrels. in case the different organic groups cannot agree, just make a compromise: 85%. but don't weaken your image by internal battles taken to the public !!. one of these battles is the question: "what means organic?" why not a part of their farm organic and the other part conventional ?? i know of at least one farmer here, who tried it and was bashed and isolated from his organic-cofarmers. IFOAM rules allow that very well !!! 2 consequences: the absolutism, with which organic growers see their business, is an enormous restriction for them. maybe you remember my question, what organic growers can sell in winter. with an annual income of 10.000$ i see this absolutism a personal problem of the farmer's philosophy, which i as a consumer need not share. an example: i'm just involved in a project of small farmers, who offer a complete bundle of vegetables for a complete salad (like a colorful mixture of different salads for a "ceasar's salad".) all works well except the question of some organics, if the dressing also NEEDS to be organic and as a ready-to-eat dressing cannot be organic, they prefer to renounce the 95% of the total buy because of the 5% for the dressing. 2nd consequence: beginning from a certain distance from consumers your farm it is obligatory to go TO the consumer, instead the other way round (that might not be valid for some of the vast and unpopulated american regions like the apallachians. again, that's MY guess from far away. you better ask your own consultants). and here starts the problem with certification. selling into a city again has 2 options: if you sell on a farmer's market, certification MIGHT not be needed and diversification is more important. option 2 is the main problem: most part of a city's food need is based on a professional and ANONYMOUS distribution system and here it is very important to create a chain of trust and discriminate by kind of a (certified?) label. that needs not necessarily be a governmental system. here in europe at the lower level there are EU regulations, which you HAVE to meet to get the EU label for organic production and beginning with august, 2000 they will be unique in the whole EU. additionaly in germany there's a private system, supported and paid by the organic movement (yes, you WILL need a professional system, more and more people are living in cities and consequently more and more consumers, i.e. the people, you get the money from). at the moment there are 6 small and 3 large and successful groups ("BIOLAND", "NATURKIND" and "DEMETER", makes 9, all agree, that that's too much, none of them wants to be the first to quit. in denmark and austria there is just 1 organisation), who set their own internal and stricter rules as the EU for their own certification and who also do internal random control analyses. it works fine, as NONE (with VERY few exceptions) of the governmental analytical controls on pesticide residues and additives (they are restricted to these 2 items, because governent does not care about these group's internal rules) find any violations. so confidence in these 2 labels is very high and consumers trust them almost blindly. fresh products are mostly sold on farmer's markets, but they also are selling their other products (like noodles, flour, corn flakes, sea salt, dried spices and a whole bunch of readily prepared foods..) in supermarkets with increasing success (in germany 30%, in the UK 67%, in austria 70% and in denmark 90 of total organic sales. compare it with the number of organisations in these countries !!). selling in supermarkets needs some additional things like a nice design of the package, the right size (increasing market for singles), a moderate price (still 30-40% higher than conventional food) and a good positioning. and most important: it needs an organisation, which manages the distribution, deals with the supermarkets (which more and more become pure commisionaries for a place to sell and are insisting on "entry fees" too high for single farmers). and it needs a farewell from the usual absolutism and negiotiation of consumer's attitudes (still i never saw a TV ad for organic food, BUT WHY NOT?? and why not a nice designer package, it needn't have the overhead of a perfume?). that's too much for an individual farmer and needs something like an organisation. together with a friend i initiated another project (again not esp. intended for organics, but more for better prices.) years ago we "pushed" a special potato variety. a very small potato looking like a little cucumber (kind of a "bonsai" potato, 2-3 cm thick and 6-8 cm long) i got the idea, when i sold a bag of potatoes in the french alsace. there an old and honest woman sold me the bag with these potatoes, which are quite common there. when i asked her, why the potatoes were so small, she answered: "well, they are especially graded and taste better and are more convenient for cooking". when i asked her, what they do with the large ones, she answered with a smile: "we feed them to the swine or sell them to the germans". we convinced two farmers to try them and at the end of the 2nd year they mourned "if only we had planted twice as much fields". that would also be an option for organics: 2 different potato varieties for sale and one of them an unusual one. this way you can satisfy the "traditional" buyer, who wants no "gimmicks" AND the people looking for some sensation. and it's the sensation i'm missing at organic sellers on farmer's markets. argument: "we aren't interested in gimmicks". OOPS ??? when i'm buying noodles, i can choose between several dozens of conventional labels, when i buy organic noodles, they usually come in a neutral and wretched looking package. in sum: what organic agriculture needs, is a "corporate identity". the average consumer has not the slightest idea, what the behinds of a cover crop or soil fertility are (and doesn't care, YOU are the experts, so he can expect to a certain degree, that you think about, what's good and what's bad). hardly anyone of the consumers is in still in touch with nature or agriculture. compared with earlier eras in human history, we live in a society so artificial, so divorced from the natural environment, that it would be simply incomprehensible to our forefathers. this is not only true for people living in inner city areas, but also just about everybody else. but people are WILLING to support, what organic food can offer them. that's why the government still pays 15.800 !! marks every year as subsidy to every organic farm or 330 dm/ha. but for this people do expect a bullet-proof system (it's THEIR tax money), which can garantue 4 things: free from pesticides, free from additives, a prevention of cruelities to animals and free from gmo's. they don't care very much about the rest, at least much less than organic farmers expect. so what is needed, are for example convincing slogans, which sound logic to the consumer. example: "what was not put onto the field, can't be in the fruit" or "what quality can you expect from 5 sausages in a tin priced 80 cents?" or "caring about pesticide residues ? - we needn't", "lucky with a soup with 8 gramms of dehydrated meat?" or "our cows are called sandra, milka and linda and not #234, #743 and #1254". DON'T argue about healthier food! and for all this you need a professional distribution system with knowledge in PR and you need (few) special wellknown labels, with which consumers can identify a special quality, whereever they buy. it needn't be a governmental system, but instead one, that is trusted. i'm sure, the amish will never need an extra label for selling food, because they have their own "control" system and a well-known way of living (their "label"). in germany there are about 10% people, who need not be convinced, for whom no certification or PR is needed, about 30-50%, who need to be convinced and who want a certain kind of proof and a control system, because they are sceptical against just a claim and the rest can't be reached by you by ANY mean (they buy, what's cheapest or don't care about food at all.) here it needed about 20 years until these labels became really known among all consumers and you might have expected it: these labels started with about 50 farmers organising themselfes and agreeing on an internal control system. p.s: your smallfarms.com system might be a nice possibility to inform people, where i can buy organic food nearby and can show the differences between production systems much cheaper than flyers or media advertisement. it can be modeled to be an (farmer-restricted) information system about prices and trends in the market (provided farmers are willing to inform others about prices. that's not always the case. here we had a system called pool-marketing. everyone added to a common pool and the large batch was marketed, so everyone got the same price. the better farmers soon left). there definitely is competition and there are bad farmers, who will have to leave the market. another thing, organic farmers are more likely to ignore than conventional ones, as they see themself as ONE big friendly community of equal thinkers, ignoring that life in the city is more like life in a jungle than in a small town. but i have some doubts, if it can be a information system for market chains looking for larger batches. nicely programmed it can create desires and serve as a guide for food choices. (i have not the SLIGHTEST idea, if it can be useful to attract consumers to direct-selling farm, because, as i already wrote above, driving 50 miles for food in my view is not sustainable, but europe is totally different, because MUCH smaller and more densely inhabited. it might be a chance for buying on the way home from work, if nearby.) and a last thing (in case you think i'm talking purely theoretical): our institute meanwhile pays for 3 certification systems: ISO, GLP and DQS. it costs a lot of money, but we decided to pay it, because more and more of our costumers demand a proof, that our analysis is done according to international standards. the funny thing: we also worked by these standards before and certification hasn't changed the slightest thing in our daily work except additional paperwork and time-consuming work for the analysts (who asked almost the same questions as in this discussion about certification) and me - i'm one of the 2 internal quality assurance inspectors. either we have the certificate or our customers go elsewhere and we must live from those, who do not insist on a certificate (and therefore pay less, the others are charged for the extrawork). it's that simple and IT'S NOT ABOUT QUALITY. it's the same process of concentration as in agriculture and it's also an assurance against complaints and legal actions against us. puuh, finally finished.. any future mails will be fax-style... klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 10:40:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00533 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14871 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:07:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14835 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:06:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'Lisa Bauer'" , "'leocenter@iastate.edu'" Subject: local food systems paper from Iowa Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:06:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:54:31 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:54:25 -0600 Subject: local food systems paper from Iowa For immediate release: Contact: Rich Pirog, (515) 294-3711 RELEASED: November 1999 APPLES TO APPLES: A PERSPECTIVE ON LOCAL FOOD SYSTEMS AMES, IOWA--Once a top apple-producing state, Iowa now provides a fraction of the fresh apples eaten by Iowans annually. More information about changes in Iowa's apple industry, and potential for local sales today, is now available in a report on the Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture's World Wide Web site (http://www.leopold.iastate.edu). Authored by Education program coordinator Rich Pirog and intern John Tyndall, the paper is a vehicle for exploring the potential for local food systems to augment Iowa farm income. Market studies show a growing interested in local food systems, where local farmers sell their products to nearby consumers. The authors estimates that about 15 percent of the 1.3 million bushels of fresh apples consumed by Iowans each year are Iowa-grown. While a typical Iowa-grown apple is sold within one day to two months of picking, apples grown in Washington can be kept for eight months or longer in controlled atmosphere storage before sale, allowing nearly year-round availability in the nation?s grocery stores. Some Iowans may not know that the Delicious variety was discovered as a chance seedling by Madison County farmer Jesse Hiatt, nor that Iowa was once a top apple-producing state, producing a peak 9.5 million bushels in 1911. The Iowa apple industry was devastated in 1940, however, by the infamous Armistice Day freeze which killed many apple trees. Today, Iowa ranks 31st among the 36 states that grow apples commercially. Washington state ranks first in U.S. apple production, growing more than half of the nation's fresh apples. Graphics depicting the pathways taken by Iowa- and Washington-grown apples are included with the paper, as well as suggestions for increasing the potential for local food systems in Iowa, using apples as an example. Printed copies of the paper are also available by contacting the Leopold Center, 209 Curtiss Hall, ISU, Ames, IA 50011-1050; phone (515) 294-3711; e-mail leocenter@iastate.edu. 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 10:52:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00709 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21704 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:18:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21547 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-158.rain.org [198.68.144.158]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0574A61759; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:16:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002001bf29fc$42901720$9e9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , References: <109DB9675F8@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Subject: Re: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:16:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Wiegand To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 3:56 AM Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program .let me give you my thoughts from here in the USA. the 3 kinds of buyers 1 . CSA and farmers and direct mail and even roadside stands are in close contact with the grower and can make up their mind from what they know. I agree with you the extra cost and burden is a waste. 2. the wholesale and retail and brokers - they already say I must be certified or they will not buy from me. they protect their store customers and their self's by making sure we are certified already and we don't need the added expense of the STATE Of CA. and the Fed. government to make that happen it happens now with out the extra organic tax from the state and fed gov. 3.the international market I read in the CCOF newsletter that "The USDA's Meat Certification and Grading Program (MCGP) has verified that CCOF conforms to the basic requirements of ISO -65, the international standard for certification programs. The approval means that CCOF-certified products should now be approved for entry into European Union (EU) countries. The EU organic regulations require imported organic products to be certified by an organization that meets the ISO-65 Standards. Other ISO-65 approved certification programs includes Farm Verified Organic-Quality Assurance International and Organic Growers and Buyers Association . Several other certifier site evaluations and approvals are pending. so u see all I need is CCOF or QAI or OG or FVO and I can voluntary join them if I need that. easy I don't need the extra tax imposed by the state of Ca. or the fed government. I don't need them to charge my certifier money because they only pass that on to me and we don't needed it. so you see that USDA and STATE of Ca. takeover of the word organic and taxing all those who use that word for business and the forcing them to jump through hoops and boss them around is not needed. business is taking care of business already here the USDA tried to sneak GMO, irradiation and sweagesluge in on us already and only a great out cry from the people stopped it. we don't need them forcing their ways on us. anything the state or fed government makes organic growers do they must make all farmers do. good for the goose good for the gander. make all farmers have material lists on what comes on their farm and were it is used and where all the GMO are sent and how they are sent so they don't contaminate good organic food and inspect them all so u can see that all growers of food are the same honest. why pick on organic growers? no fair its not fair now and it is getting worse. 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 11:08:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00955 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27800 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27744 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-158.rain.org [198.68.144.158]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F296F61765; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003301bf29fe$a1550980$9e9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Bluestem Associates" , References: Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Bluestem Associates To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 4:29 AM Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:20:31 -0800, Sal wrote: > > > why why don't you trust organic grower > > I trust organic growers. Not everyone selling food as organic, however, > *is* an organic grower. There are a number of people who cheat. Guess > what? They also lie. Just because someone *says* they're organic > doesn't mean as much as it used to. so what there are cops that cheat every group of folks have liars you don't have to single out organic growers as the only cheats what about chemical growers that don't use the chemicals on the crops they are supposed to be used on . who checks out chemical growers. > Sal, as onerous as certification can be, would you really prefer to > have 117 customers coming out to your farm and checking it in > sufficient detail to decide if you're organic enough? Visitors can be > a very expensive drain on your time, and may well end up costing you > more that writing out a check for the certification agency. We got > around it by limiting visitors to one field day per year. I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over me . if you think I am lying get a searchwarrent convince a judge you have a reason to look. this is America I don't have to prove I am not guilty every year year after year. you don't ask that of chemical grower why pick on me. > > >maybe every five years or so if nothing on the farm changes .. why make me > >pay all these folks over and over every year if my organicness is the same. > >what does the change in the year have to do with being organic . I was the > >same organic in 98 as 99 so why pay pay pay over and over for nothing. > > You know, when I was being inspected for certification I happily paid > the fees to have another set of eyes look at what I was doing. Sure I > was organic, but I definitely wasn't a perfect farmer, and having > someone who had seen a lot of other farms helped me get better at what > I was doing. BTW, at the time I was also *training* inspectors, so I > knew at least as much about the deal as they did. They were *still* a > good use of my money, whether or not I ever shipped a thing more than 5 > miles from home. so what you want to start telling stories about what makes you feel good go ahead I don't like spending anymore time or money than I have too. this is one good reason one size does not fit all . you like it I hate it. that is why you forcing us to play these games is wrong. in some states you pay $10 in some states you pay 2000 dollars for the same verification whets is fair about that. why do I pay more in Ca. than Ky. what is far about that. how the Fed. gov. and state force me to pay more here than in KY. good for the goose good for the gander. they cannot tell you what it will cost to be organic because there are so many folks with their hand in our pockets and all get to charge whatever they want and you are forced to pay them. this is wrong. it is wrong now and it is getting worse. where is the protection for the grower? where is the due process? where is the fairness of the same prices for the same thing ? where is my robe of innocence why am I guilty and have to pay to prove I am telling the truth over and over again just because the year changes. > Just a reminder here. I think you and I are in pretty close agreement > about USDA involvement. > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 11:53:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01646 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16366 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:08:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f318.hotmail.com [207.82.250.238]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16297 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5990 invoked by uid 0); 8 Nov 1999 16:05:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19991108160540.5989.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.173.73.57 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:05:39 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.173.73.57] From: "J. S." To: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:05:39 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 Not to disregard the many interesting comments in the rest of this letter, but i think it is pertinent to point out that california is quite atypical of the US in terms of regulation; especially as pertains to anything in the environment--they are heavy regulators, encourage citizens to report their uncompliant brethren and generally the consumer foots the bill. >From: "Klaus Wiegand" >Reply-To: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Subject: Re: Proposed organic cost share program >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:56:25 +0200 > >hello glenn, > > >Since both of you live outside the USA, and see what's happening > >here throught slightly different eyes, what do you see as the > >building blocks for farmer first national certification? Do you > >see leaders, friends or obvious single issues to pursue > >first: these are my personal opinions and experiences from here, >as i'm not familiar with the american organic movement and you >will be surprised, how often behavior of americans seems >extremely strange to us europeans. it might be totally wrong >under your conditions. > >first i'm highly surprised about the way government is involved >in regulating your life. and i thought germany has a bureaucratic >system ;-]. today i read in the newspaper, that califorians have to >pay a charge of 100$, if they exchange radiators in their houses >and the bill to reduce it or put away with it was stopped by the >democrats and several CONSUMER organisations. government should >only be involved in cases, where individuals might be harmed or >as a arbitrator or better as a mediator, where people can't agree >on important things of a society, but not in other cases. the old >sentance of a greek philosopher comes to mind, which says, that >government should never ever regulate something, which it cannot >control or garantuee. > > >there are 3 groups of consumers: > >a) those, who know you personally and with which you live more > closely together in a community. this is the simplest and > maybe most satisfying and most sustainable way of selling and > dealing with. as selling healthy food is (as every other > question concerning health) a very SENSIBLE thing, it depends > on personal relations and mouth-to-mouth propaganda. you do > not need an extra propaganda or some kind of PR. a > certification is useless here and a waste of money you better > spend somewhere else on your farm !! > >b) those, who do not know you, but do not live VERY far away > (maybe your farm nearby a larger town or a city). here you > will already see my doubts, if it is sustainable, if people > are driving 40 or 50 miles to your farm to buy food for 3 or 5 > days. the pollution from the gasoline will contradict any > sustainability (the real price for environmental damage is > 2-3$ a liter of gasoline) ! ignoring that, these people still > are preferring organic food ! i think, i need not tell anyone, > how to market your products. just make it reasonable to him, > why he should buy especially at your farm... maybe take a look > into the faith popcorn's book (the popcorn report), how to > "cocoon" people. > >c) people farer away, which can only be reached by distribution > channels. it's your individual decision, if you want to reach > them, but remember: they are the majority. you only need to > think about them, if you cannot make a living from direct > marketing. and here starts, what i see as the largest problem: > the ambiguity between consumers. they do not behave, like you > would like them to do (meaning 100% supporters of the organic > idea and consistant). i know people, who eat their dinner at > some fast-food restaurant and in the evening go to a > restaurant and insist on an nice organic supper, because it's > healthier. if i can convince 100 consumers to buy 20% of their > food organic, that's better than 10 people living for 100% on > organic food. but a lot of organic farmers also try to sell > their philosophy instead and only live in "inner circles of > alumni" their slogan: entirely organic or nothing at all. > organic farmers tend to be much less consume-orientated, more > individual and environmental sensible than conventional ones > (and I myself like their attitude very much), but do they need > to tell others, that this is "the sacred way"?. here in > germany there even is an entirely anthroposophic way of living > and children's education behind the organic movement. that's > ok, but organic farmers not only try to sell their fruits, but > with them also their anthroposophic philosophy and that's > something a lot of people dislike. they can think for > themselfes and chances are, that sooner or later they come to > the same conclusions all by themself. they do NOT care about > your internal quarrels, whether 80 or 90% of the manure needs > to be from your own farm. and these are USELESS quarrels. in > case the different organic groups cannot agree, just make a > compromise: 85%. but don't weaken your image by internal > battles taken to the public !!. one of these battles is the > question: "what means organic?" > > why not a part of their farm organic and the other part > conventional ?? i know of at least one farmer here, who tried > it and was bashed and isolated from his organic-cofarmers. > IFOAM rules allow that very well !!! > > >2 consequences: the absolutism, with which organic growers see >their business, is an enormous restriction for them. maybe you >remember my question, what organic growers can sell in winter. >with an annual income of 10.000$ i see this absolutism a personal >problem of the farmer's philosophy, which i as a consumer need >not share. > >an example: i'm just involved in a project of small farmers, who >offer a complete bundle of vegetables for a complete salad (like >a colorful mixture of different salads for a "ceasar's salad".) >all works well except the question of some organics, if the >dressing also NEEDS to be organic and as a ready-to-eat dressing >cannot be organic, they prefer to renounce the 95% of the total >buy because of the 5% for the dressing. > >2nd consequence: beginning from a certain distance from consumers >your farm it is obligatory to go TO the consumer, instead the >other way round (that might not be valid for some of the vast and >unpopulated american regions like the apallachians. again, that's >MY guess from far away. you better ask your own consultants). and >here starts the problem with certification. selling into a city >again has 2 options: if you sell on a farmer's market, >certification MIGHT not be needed and diversification is more >important. option 2 is the main problem: most part of a city's >food need is based on a professional and ANONYMOUS distribution >system and here it is very important to create a chain of trust >and discriminate by kind of a (certified?) label. that needs not >necessarily be a governmental system. > >here in europe at the lower level there are EU regulations, which >you HAVE to meet to get the EU label for organic production and >beginning with august, 2000 they will be unique in the whole EU. > >additionaly in germany there's a private system, supported and >paid by the organic movement (yes, you WILL need a professional >system, more and more people are living in cities and >consequently more and more consumers, i.e. the people, you get >the money from). at the moment there are 6 small and 3 large and >successful groups ("BIOLAND", "NATURKIND" and "DEMETER", makes 9, >all agree, that that's too much, none of them wants to be the >first to quit. in denmark and austria there is just 1 >organisation), who set their own internal and stricter rules as >the EU for their own certification and who also do internal >random control analyses. it works fine, as NONE (with VERY few >exceptions) of the governmental analytical controls on pesticide >residues and additives (they are restricted to these 2 items, >because governent does not care about these group's internal >rules) find any violations. > >so confidence in these 2 labels is very high and consumers trust >them almost blindly. fresh products are mostly sold on farmer's >markets, but they also are selling their other products (like >noodles, flour, corn flakes, sea salt, dried spices and a whole >bunch of readily prepared foods..) in supermarkets with >increasing success (in germany 30%, in the UK 67%, in austria 70% >and in denmark 90 of total organic sales. compare it with the >number of organisations in these countries !!). > >selling in supermarkets needs some additional things like a nice >design of the package, the right size (increasing market for >singles), a moderate price (still 30-40% higher than conventional >food) and a good positioning. and most important: it needs an >organisation, which manages the distribution, deals with the >supermarkets (which more and more become pure commisionaries for >a place to sell and are insisting on "entry fees" too high for >single farmers). and it needs a farewell from the usual >absolutism and negiotiation of consumer's attitudes (still i >never saw a TV ad for organic food, BUT WHY NOT?? and why not a >nice designer package, it needn't have the overhead of a >perfume?). that's too much for an individual farmer and needs >something like an organisation. > >together with a friend i initiated another project (again not >esp. intended for organics, but more for better prices.) years >ago we "pushed" a special potato variety. a very small potato >looking like a little cucumber (kind of a "bonsai" potato, 2-3 cm >thick and 6-8 cm long) > >i got the idea, when i sold a bag of potatoes in the french >alsace. there an old and honest woman sold me the bag with these >potatoes, which are quite common there. when i asked her, why the >potatoes were so small, she answered: "well, they are especially >graded and taste better and are more convenient for cooking". >when i asked her, what they do with the large ones, she answered >with a smile: "we feed them to the swine or sell them to the >germans". > >we convinced two farmers to try them and at the end of the 2nd >year they mourned "if only we had planted twice as much fields". >that would also be an option for organics: 2 different potato >varieties for sale and one of them an unusual one. this way you >can satisfy the "traditional" buyer, who wants no "gimmicks" AND >the people looking for some sensation. and it's the sensation i'm >missing at organic sellers on farmer's markets. argument: "we >aren't interested in gimmicks". OOPS ??? when i'm buying noodles, >i can choose between several dozens of conventional labels, when >i buy organic noodles, they usually come in a neutral and >wretched looking package. > >in sum: what organic agriculture needs, is a "corporate >identity". the average consumer has not the slightest idea, what >the behinds of a cover crop or soil fertility are (and doesn't >care, YOU are the experts, so he can expect to a certain degree, >that you think about, what's good and what's bad). hardly anyone >of the consumers is in still in touch with nature or agriculture. >compared with earlier eras in human history, we live in a society >so artificial, so divorced from the natural environment, that it >would be simply incomprehensible to our forefathers. this is not >only true for people living in inner city areas, but also just >about everybody else. but people are WILLING to support, what >organic food can offer them. that's why the government still pays >15.800 !! marks every year as subsidy to every organic farm or >330 dm/ha. but for this people do expect a bullet-proof system >(it's THEIR tax money), which can garantue 4 things: free from >pesticides, free from additives, a prevention of cruelities to >animals and free from gmo's. they don't care very much about the >rest, at least much less than organic farmers expect. > >so what is needed, are for example convincing slogans, which >sound logic to the consumer. example: "what was not put onto the >field, can't be in the fruit" or "what quality can you expect >from 5 sausages in a tin priced 80 cents?" or "caring about >pesticide residues ? - we needn't", "lucky with a soup with 8 >gramms of dehydrated meat?" or "our cows are called sandra, milka >and linda and not #234, #743 and #1254". > >DON'T argue about healthier food! and for all this you need a >professional distribution system with knowledge in PR and you >need (few) special wellknown labels, with which consumers can >identify a special quality, whereever they buy. it needn't be a >governmental system, but instead one, that is trusted. i'm sure, >the amish will never need an extra label for selling food, >because they have their own "control" system and a well-known way >of living (their "label"). in germany there are about 10% people, >who need not be convinced, for whom no certification or PR is >needed, about 30-50%, who need to be convinced and who want a >certain kind of proof and a control system, because they are >sceptical against just a claim and the rest can't be reached by >you by ANY mean (they buy, what's cheapest or don't care about >food at all.) here it needed about 20 years until these labels >became really known among all consumers and you might have >expected it: these labels started with about 50 farmers >organising themselfes and agreeing on an internal control system. > > >p.s: your smallfarms.com system might be a nice possibility to >inform people, where i can buy organic food nearby and can show >the differences between production systems much cheaper than >flyers or media advertisement. it can be modeled to be an >(farmer-restricted) information system about prices and trends in >the market (provided farmers are willing to inform others about >prices. that's not always the case. here we had a system called >pool-marketing. everyone added to a common pool and the large >batch was marketed, so everyone got the same price. the better >farmers soon left). there definitely is competition and there are >bad farmers, who will have to leave the market. another thing, >organic farmers are more likely to ignore than conventional ones, >as they see themself as ONE big friendly community of equal >thinkers, ignoring that life in the city is more like life in a >jungle than in a small town. > >but i have some doubts, if it can be a information system for >market chains looking for larger batches. nicely programmed it >can create desires and serve as a guide for food choices. (i have >not the SLIGHTEST idea, if it can be useful to attract consumers >to direct-selling farm, because, as i already wrote above, >driving 50 miles for food in my view is not sustainable, but >europe is totally different, because MUCH smaller and more >densely inhabited. it might be a chance for buying on the way >home from work, if nearby.) > >and a last thing (in case you think i'm talking purely >theoretical): our institute meanwhile pays for 3 certification >systems: ISO, GLP and DQS. it costs a lot of money, but we >decided to pay it, because more and more of our costumers demand >a proof, that our analysis is done according to international >standards. the funny thing: we also worked by these standards >before and certification hasn't changed the slightest thing in >our daily work except additional paperwork and time-consuming >work for the analysts (who asked almost the same questions as in >this discussion about certification) and me - i'm one of the 2 >internal quality assurance inspectors. either we have the >certificate or our customers go elsewhere and we must live from >those, who do not insist on a certificate (and therefore pay >less, the others are charged for the extrawork). it's that simple >and IT'S NOT ABOUT QUALITY. it's the same process of >concentration as in agriculture and it's also an assurance >against complaints and legal actions against us. > > >puuh, finally finished.. any future mails will be fax-style... > > >klaus > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 12:55:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02821 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12893 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:06:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12801 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:09:40 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.150] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A2D66940178; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:05:26 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 17:03:31 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote: >I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic >enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over me >. if you think I am lying get a searchwarrent convince a judge you have a >reason to look. this is America I don't have to prove I am not guilty every >year year after year. you don't ask that of chemical grower why pick on me. >why you forcing us to play these games is wrong. in some states you pay $10 >in some states you pay 2000 dollars for the same verification whets is fair >about that. why do I pay more in Ca. than Ky. what is far about that. how >the Fed. gov. and state force me to pay more here than in KY. >the fairness of the same prices for the same thing ? where is my robe of >innocence why am I guilty and have to pay to prove I am telling the truth >over and over again just because the year changes. What does a "robe of innocence" have to do with anything? We are talking about regulation within the *commercial* sphere, not a criminal proceeding. And while we're at it, what ever led you to expect that regulation would be uniform (you call it "fair") from state to state, or even town to town? That sort of variation is precisely what localised (rather than federal) control is all about. This is America, and there is absolutely nothing preventing you from moving to Kentucky if you find the regulatory and administrative environment in California so onerous. I've built and renovated several houses over the years, and what do you know --- there's variation in building codes, permit requirements, fee structure, and administrative burden from place to place. Big deal. I've also done a major renovation in a jurisdiction where there is no code at all or even any requirement to get a permit. I've always built to code (actually, way better than code). I *know* that I build better than code, but I don't run around being a cry-baby about permits, fees, and building inspections in those places where they are required. Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation. Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses --- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival. a) the looming application of HACCP requirements to *all* produce growers, regardless of size. b) the possible application of migrant labor laws to "apprentices / interns" on organic farms. c) the rapid disappearance of small processing plants and slaughterhouses. If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you find out sooner rather than later. It *will* affect your operation within a few years, maybe a few months. It is a major food safety issue (far more important than chemical residues in terms of the number of acute illnesses). It can shut you down. The application of HACCP requirements to produce will almost certainly be nationwide. State application of migrant labor laws to apprentices/interns has already put one vegetable farm out of business. There may be more. Small scale processing is one of the best ways for the small grower to add value to crops. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to find places who will do this work for you. Many slaughterhouses now set minimum-kill requirements far in excess of what small growers are able to bring forward --- 5000 turkeys, for example. Energy spent complaining is far better applied to a serious and dispassionate analysis of the opportunities and threats facing the business. Coupled with honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses, such study can make the difference between success and failure. Where strengths overlap an opportunity, there is the potential for substantial profit. Where weaknesses overlap a threat, there is a serious problem. HACCP and other potential regulations *are* a substantial threat, especially for the small grower. In that environment, reactive (as opposed to adaptive) attitudes towards regulation would seem to be a significant weakness with the potential to undermine survivability. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 13:24:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03337 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29305 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:35:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from dorsey.fcc.net (dorsey.fcc.net [207.198.253.29]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28981 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pentium-233mmx ([204.141.125.23]) by dorsey.fcc.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-57968U12500L1250S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:32:26 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19991108123017.00b35c10@mail.magiccarpet.com> X-Sender: campaign@mail.magiccarpet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:30:24 -0500 To: casawg@igc.apc.org, catanc@aol.com, chartmannsa@taconic.net, debbie.neustadt.@sierraclub.org, dh43048@navix.net, dolan@nwf.org, eschreder@watoxics.org, fhoefner@msawg.org, hgraddy@aol.com, ilstew@fgi.net, janetb@ncatark.uark.edu, jfawcett@eskimo.com, krist@cfra.org, lkemp@maroon.tc.umn.edu, mmellon@ucsusa.org, mnoble@msawg.org, msligh@rafiusa.org, nesfi@igc.apc.org, rmarks@nrdc.org, schul072@gold.tc.umn.edu, trimtab@psu.edu, vfrances@foe.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Natl. Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture" Subject: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 >From: Lamonte Garber >> CHESAPEAKE BAY FOUNDATION SAVE THE BAY >> >> >> JOB ANNOUNCEMENT >> >> >> Agricultural Policy Specialist >> >> The Chesapeake Bay Foundation, the largest regional conservation >> organization seeks an Agricultural Policy Specialist in its Harrisburg >> office. >> >> THE CHESAPEAKE BAY FOUNDATION >> >> Established in 1967, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation is the original Save >> the Bay environmental group. Its founders realized that government alone >> could not save the Bay; private citizens must shoulder responsibility. >> The Bay is in trouble, humans caused it, and only humans can save it. >> Today CBF stands as a highly credible watchdog, educator, and catalyst for >> the Bay's restoration. It is the pre-eminent conscience of the Bay, >> speaking for the watershed's 15 million citizens and for those creatures >> who have no public voice - the fish, shellfish, and other living resources >> whose once legendary bounty inspired H. L. Mencken to dub the Chesapeake >> an "immense protein factory." CBF can take credit for rallying the public >> conscience to come to the aid of the Bay. >> >> CBF has a staff of 145 employees working across the watershed, from the >> Annapolis headquarters and three state offices in Harrisburg, Annapolis >> and Richmond, to the southern Bay office in Norfolk and the eastern shore >> office in Laurel, Delaware. In addition, CBF operates 16 outdoor >> environmental education training centers located in Pennsylvania, >> Maryland, the District of Columbia, and Virginia. The organization has an >> annual budget of over $10 million and an endowment of approximately $15 >> million. Support comes from 80,000 members, several hundred foundations, >> over a thousand corporations, and tuition revenues from field trips. >> >> >> -OVER- >> >> >> >> CONTEXT OF THE POSITION >> >> The Agriculture Policy Specialist for Pennsylvania coordinates and >> implements state office efforts to reduce agriculture's impact on water >> quality and natural resources. The Agriculture Policy Specialist also >> develops strategy for use with legislators, regulatory agencies, and the >> private sector. Additionally, he/she writes position statements, lobbies >> legislators, serves on pertinent advisory boards and committees. >> >> >> PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE AND QUALIFICATIONS >> >> Requirements include: Graduate level degree in natural resources >> conservation, agricultural science or related field and a familiarity with >> a wide range of farm management issues including nutrient management, >> soil/water conservation, stream/wetland management, and sustainable >> agriculture. Thorough knowledge of government programs that affect >> agriculture policies and excellent communication skills are required. >> >> Please send resume, cover letter and salary requirements by November 7, >> 1998 to: >> >> Chesapeake Bay Foundation >> Old Water Works Building >> 614 North Front Street, Suite G >> Harrisburg, PA 17101 >> >> >> >> CBF offers a comprehensive benefits package to include: 20 vacation days, >> 10 sick days, health, vision, dental, life insurance, and pension plan. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 15:18:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05726 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18364 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:17:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from unlnotes.unl.edu (unlnotes.unl.edu [129.93.1.131]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18320 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from unlnotes01.unl.edu ([129.93.1.23]) by unlnotes.unl.edu (Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) with SMTP id 86256823.00696E76; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:11:35 -0600 Received: from Laurie Hodges ([129.93.98.73]) by unlnotes01.unl.edu (Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) with SMTP id 86256823.00697FCF; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:12:20 -0600 Message-Id: <4.1.19991108131349.00a3f550@unlnotes01.unl.edu> X-Sender: lhodges@unlnotes01.unl.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 13:19:11 -0600 To: "Bluestem Associates" , "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" From: Laurie Hodges Subject: Re: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) In-Reply-To: <74FE92611B982653862568230062653A.00628AEA86256823@unlnotes 01.unl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_99290882==_.ALT" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 --=====================_99290882==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those not familiar with the HAACP (food safety) guidelines for fresh produce, the following web site has the guidelines or they can be ordered as below: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/prodguid.html Guidance for Industry Guide to Minimize Microbial Food Safety Hazards for Fresh Fruits and Vegetables Additional copies are available from: Food Safety Initiative Staff, HFS-32 U.S. Food and Drug Administration Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition 200 C Street S.W. Washington, DC 20204 General thread that prompts this (snipped considerably from original post): > > >On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote: > >>I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic >>enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over >me At 11:56 AM 11/8/99 -0600, Bluestem Associates wrote: >Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely >normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the >commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation. > >Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop >moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses >--- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival. > >a) the looming application of HACCP requirements to *all* produce >growers, regardless of size. > >b) the possible application of migrant labor laws to "apprentices / >interns" on organic farms. > >c) the rapid disappearance of small processing plants and >slaughterhouses. > >If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know >about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you >find out sooner rather than later. It *will* affect your operation >within a few years, maybe a few months. It is a major food safety issue >(far more important than chemical residues in terms of the number of >acute illnesses). It can shut you down. The application of HACCP >requirements to produce will almost certainly be nationwide. > >State application of migrant labor laws to apprentices/interns has >already put one vegetable farm out of business. There may be more. > >Small scale processing is one of the best ways for the small grower to >add value to crops. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to >find places who will do this work for you. Many slaughterhouses now set >minimum-kill requirements far in excess of what small growers are able >to bring forward --- 5000 turkeys, for example. > >Energy spent complaining is far better applied to a serious and >dispassionate analysis of the opportunities and threats facing the >business. Coupled with honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses, >such study can make the difference between success and failure. Where >strengths overlap an opportunity, there is the potential for >substantial profit. Where weaknesses overlap a threat, there is a >serious problem. > >HACCP and other potential regulations *are* a substantial threat, >especially for the small grower. In that environment, reactive (as >opposed to adaptive) attitudes towards regulation would seem to be a >significant weakness with the potential to undermine survivability. > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ----- Dr. Laurie Hodges, Vegetable Specialist 377 Plant Sciences - University of Nebraska Lincoln, NE 68583-0724 phone: 402-472-2854 FAX: 402-472-8650 e-mail: lhodges@unl.edu --=====================_99290882==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" For those not familiar with the HAACP (food safety) guidelines for fresh produce, the following web site has the guidelines or they can be ordered as below:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/prodguid.html

Guidance for Industry
Guide to Minimize Microbial Food Safety Hazards for Fresh Fruits and Vegetables
Additional copies are available from:
Food Safety Initiative Staff, HFS-32
U.S. Food and Drug Administration
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
200 C Street S.W.
Washington, DC 20204

General thread that prompts this (snipped considerably from original post):


>
>
>On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote:
>
>>I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic
>>enough.  I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over
>me

At 11:56 AM 11/8/99 -0600, Bluestem Associates wrote:

>Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely
>normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the
>commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation.
>
>Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop
>moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses
>--- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival.
>
>a) the looming application of HACCP requirements to *all* produce
>growers, regardless of size.
>
>b) the possible application of migrant labor laws to "apprentices /
>interns" on organic farms.
>
>c) the rapid disappearance of small processing plants and
>slaughterhouses.
>
>If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know
>about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you
>find out sooner rather than later. It *will* affect your operation
>within a few years, maybe a few months. It is a major food safety issue
>(far more important than chemical residues in terms of the number of
>acute illnesses). It can shut you down. The application of HACCP
>requirements to produce will almost certainly be nationwide.
>
>State application of migrant labor laws to apprentices/interns has
>already put one vegetable farm out of business. There may be more.
>
>Small scale processing is one of the best ways for the small grower to
>add value to crops. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to
>find places who will do this work for you. Many slaughterhouses now set
>minimum-kill requirements far in excess of what small growers are able
>to bring forward --- 5000 turkeys, for example.
>
>Energy spent complaining is far better applied to a serious and
>dispassionate analysis of the opportunities and threats facing the
>business. Coupled with honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses,
>such study can make the difference between success and failure. Where
>strengths overlap an opportunity, there is the potential for
>substantial profit. Where weaknesses overlap a threat, there is a
>serious problem.
>
>HACCP and other potential regulations *are* a substantial threat,
>especially for the small grower. In that environment, reactive (as
>opposed to adaptive) attitudes towards regulation would seem to be a
>significant weakness with the potential to undermine survivability.
>

>
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>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>
>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail

-----
Dr. Laurie Hodges, Vegetable Specialist
377 Plant Sciences - University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE  68583-0724
phone: 402-472-2854 FAX: 402-472-8650
e-mail: lhodges@unl.edu --=====================_99290882==_.ALT-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:02:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07721 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02092 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:32:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov (cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov [199.146.249.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02007 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from tn.nrcs.usda.gov by cook.tncookevi2.fsc.usda.gov with ESMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id UAA00564; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:57:44 GMT Message-ID: <38273911.158395B0@tn.nrcs.usda.gov> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:56:50 -0600 From: mike richardson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; UNIX_SV 4.2MP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: FYI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 NOW IN PRINT SARE PUB FEATURES "HOW-TO'S" OF ON-FARM RESEARCH A new, no-cost, 12-page bulletin for farmers and ranchers, and the Extension educators who work with them, offers outlines on how to conduct research on farms. Published by the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Program's Sustainable Agriculture Network, the bulletin contains practical tips for crop and livestock producers, as well as an in-depth comprehensive list of resources. Co-written by a team of research scientists, the bulletin features many SARE grant recipients. The publication is available at or by calling (301) 504-6422. Ask for "Put Your Ideas to the Test: How to Conduct Research on Your Farm or Ranch." Your contact is Valerie Berton, SARE Communications Specialist, on (301) 405-3186 National Forage Quality and Animal Well-Being Training New Orleans, Louisiana November 15-18 Grazing land specialists and other NRCS personnel will participate. The Grazing Lands Technology Institute and Texas A&M University's Grazing Land Animal Nutrition Lab will provide training. Contact Arnold Norman, Grazing Lands Technology Institute on (817) 509-3214 or by e-mail at Forest Fragmentation Workshop Leesburg, Virginia November 30 Issues of maintaining, enhancing, and sustaining fully functioning forested ecosystems in Northern Virginia. Sponsored by the National Watershed Coalition (NWC) and State and local agencies and organizations. For more information, contact Gene Lessard, Senior Ecologist, NWC, on (540) 338-6143. North Dakota Chapter of SWCS Forum on Carbon Sequestration Bismarck, North Dakota December 8-9 Of interest to farmers, ranchers, industry, conservationists, environmentalists, and others interested in agriculture and its potential role in reducing CO2 and global warming. Open to the public. Registration fee: $45. Continuing education credits for Certified Crop Advisors available. Contact Jon Stika on (701) 225-5113 or at Information is also available on Sustainability of Wetlands and Water Resources: How Well Can Riverine Wetlands Continue To Support Society into the 21st Century? University of Mississippi at Oxford May 23-25 Information is available at To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:04:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07775 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04727 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:34:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f225.hotmail.com [209.185.130.163]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04629 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 42122 invoked by uid 0); 8 Nov 1999 21:32:09 -0000 Message-ID: <19991108213209.42121.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 13:32:08 PST X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1418 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:32:08 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: "Regarding meat: Remember the deaths of the poultry processing workers in the plant in Raeford, NC when the plant caught fire and workers were trapped inside because the exit doors were locked from the outside - the USDA plant inspectors had not done the job they were PAID to do, had hardly ever visited the plant. Despicable b......s." The tragic fire that you have referred to did not take place at the poultry plant in Raeford, NC which processes turkeys. It was in Rockhingham, NC where they process chickens. Just wanted to let viewers know the difference. The fact still remains that several lost their lives. On a sadder note, if some of the employees had not been stealing from their employer, the doors would not have been locked, so... who's to blame? -Kenneth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:07:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07840 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA25176 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:20:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncnoc.ncren.net (ncnoc.ncren.net [192.101.21.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25143 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ncatmail.ncat.edu (ncatmail.ncat.edu [152.8.244.149]) by ncnoc.ncren.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16741 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from agnus.ag.ncat.edu (agnus.ag.ncat.edu [152.8.33.7]) by ncatmail.ncat.edu (2.1.1/8.9.1/Execmail 2.1) with SMTP id QAA17217 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from talbottc.ncat.edu (unverified [152.8.6.70]) by agnus.ag.ncat.edu (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:27:30 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01bf2a36$fc414600$46060898@talbottc.ncat.edu> Reply-To: "Charles W. Talbott" From: "Charles W. Talbott" To: "sanet-mg" Subject: small scale hog project: slaughter and processing Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:17:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 Our project (introduced last month) is looking at alternative production and marketing options (potential for outdoor raised hogs fed different diets to develop unique/"wholesome" tastes for upscale markets) for small scale hog producers. We are having a conference this weekend (CFSA annual conference at Radisson Hotel in High Point, NC) with a session addressing the marketing and processing "log jam" with administrators from USDA, NCDA, Academia and farmers. Collectively we hope to develop some initiatives to work on....... the marketing component at this stage of the grant is exploratory. I received some excellent comments from my last posting re. marketing options with Niman Ranch and searching for the "The Lost Taste of Pork". I personally think small scale (part-time) farmers are important for ensuring food security. We have essentially lost two or three generations of farmers and food producing know-how. Research and Academia have done an excellent job in promoting animal and labor efficiency through utilization of large, environmentally controlled confinement operations. Through this transition, we have basically ignored and written off the importance of the small producer as a vital resource for maintaining food security (if only from the stand point of trying to stay ahead of the viruses and bacteria), enhancing (or sustaining) the environment and rural communities, and ensuring market competition. I'll save you from my soap box..........In terms of access to slaughter and processing plants for small producers, what questions should we be asking USDA, NCDA and ourselves (farmers and support groups)? Thank you for your assistance. Chuck Talbott Charles W. Talbott, Ph D Adj. Ast. Professor, NC A&T SU 101 Webb Hall Greensboro, NC 27411 (336) 334 7672 Fax (336) 334 7288 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:09:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07872 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05374 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:37:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05363 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17426 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EQXCKQPV; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:33:08 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:16:46 -0700 Subject: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) Message-ID: <19991108.141647.3502.0.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-9 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 >From Bluestem Associates: (snip) If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you find out sooner rather than later. (snip) Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in 100 words or less? Regards, Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:22:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08092 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA11065 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:52:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10968 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17734 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EQXCYUHU; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:40:18 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:23:53 -0700 Subject: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) Message-ID: <19991108.142354.3502.1.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-9 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 >From Bluestem Associates: (snip) If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you find out sooner rather than later. (snip) Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in 100 words or less? Regards, Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 17:41:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08381 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06958 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:42:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06924 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014BC508@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:39:53 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Nov 99 16:39:56 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Nov 99 16:39:48 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: "Sal" Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:39:42 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: USDA organic certification CC: In-reply-to: <000801bf27e9$4af50ca0$9b9044c6@rain.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 Hi Sal, Thanks for the quote from the CCOF newsletter. I'll have to look into this. It's been about 5 months since I worked on this issue, but it was my understanding that those convoluted and confusing ISO-65 rules specifically required "third party" certification which supposedly meant a gov't body. I think that maybe those big certifiers have gotten around this (not being able to use US gov't program) by getting the EU-approved certifiers to automatically "re-certify" their products when they go to the EU. But the whole thing is very confusing. I'm going to have to also look into all those taxes you're talking about too. I work on a couple of projects at once, and I have two on the back burner right now that are relavant to this conversation. One is regarding the cost of certification (I compared different types of certifiers around the country) and the other is looking at the barriers to export of US organic product. Part of the problem with keeping up with all this too is that it's constantly changing. If it's any consolation to you, the organic people at USDA that I have met (and work with) are very sincere in their desire to help the organic farmers and the organic market. Also, there have been some changings of the guarde since the first organic rules came out, and in general, I think that the people in charge of this program are genuinely interested in it and committed to good outcomes. (However, I don't know about whatever constraints to this they may be facing still.) I would, say that anyone's comments to the USDA at this time will probably be received in the most positive environment they have had there to date. Anita > thank you for you thoughts and ideas > I read in the CCOF newsletter that "The USDA's Meat Certification and > Grading Program (MCGP) has verified that CCOF conforms to the basic > requirements of ISO -65, the international standard for certification > programs. The approval means that CCOF-certified products should now be > approved for entry into European Union (EU) countries. The EU organic > regulations require imported organic products to be certified by an > organization that meets the ISO-65 Standards. Other ISO-65 approved > certification programs includes Farm Verified Organic-Quality Assurance > International and Organic Growers and Buyers Association . Several other > certifier site evaluations and approvals are pending. so u see all I need > is CCOF or QAI or OG or FVO and I can voluntary join them if I need that. > easy > see how easy things work out . > so why make a federal case out of it? why the extra state Ca. tax and the > Fed Tax and the force certification for all and the once size fits all and > the pay pay pay year after year. give us a USDA definition of organic and > lets get on with business you don't have to take us over you don't have to > make this any harder . you see Anita we are making it work out now . this > should also make for more reciprocity between group of certifiers and a lot > has changed . it has been years when the USDA started this and now the > government has seen it does not want to be a burden to small folks with > extra paper work (save those trees) and their non funded state and fed. > mandates so now is the time to stop the Ca. Ag. organic tax if one is > already certified by a recognized certifier. and it is time the Fed. gov. > lets business take care of itself, as it is doing for itself now quite will > thank-you. Anita Graf Research Coordinator Market Development of Organic Agricultural Products 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 19:02:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09707 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10280 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:42:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10212 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:45:38 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.150] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A193330198; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:41:23 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:39:32 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: HACCP Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:16:46 -0700, Edna M Weigel wrote: >Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in 100 >words or less? Analyse your entire operation from beginning to end to determine which elements present the possibility of contamination with human pathogens. Having determined the elements of risk, analyse each element in detail to determine at what points it is possible to control contamination, should it have occurred. For each of those critical control points establish procedures for contamination control. Critical procedures must be precisely defined and measurable. Implement systems of *documented* monitoring at each CCP to ensure that requisite conditions have been met. Develop mandatory procedures for situations in which CCP requisite conditions have not been met, including precise criteria for determining at what point the threat has been removed and normal procedures and monitoring can be resumed. BTW, it's 117 words, so please forgive the extra verbiage, but broadly put, that should about get it. Some practitioners choose to include contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts, and so on, though strictly speaking HACCP is primarily orientated towards microbial contamination. On a small vegetable farm it will profoundly affect (amongst other things): manure handling, manure/compost applications, supervision of anyone touching the vegetables, how vegetables are picked, cooled and stored, sanitation on the packing line, and supervision of packing line workers. If you think organic certification is a pain in the bottom, just wait until you have to have a system capable of ensuring that all who touch the vegetables have washed their hands after the toilet. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 19:28:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10190 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10034 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:41:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09912 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-179.rain.org [198.68.144.179]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DA1161742; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:39:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf2a3a$1415b560$b39044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Bluestem Associates" , References: Subject: Re: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:39:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Bluestem Associates To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:03 PM Subject: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) > On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote: > > >I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic > >enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over me > >. if you think I am lying get a searchwarrent convince a judge you have a > >reason to look. this is America I don't have to prove I am not guilty every > >year year after year. you don't ask that of chemical grower why pick on me. > > >why you forcing us to play these games is wrong. in some states you pay $10 > >in some states you pay 2000 dollars for the same verification whets is fair > >about that. why do I pay more in Ca. than Ky. what is far about that. how > >the Fed. gov. and state force me to pay more here than in KY. I thought the whole idea for this was because every state was different and every one looked at organic different and this law was to level the playing field. > >the fairness of the same prices for the same thing ? where is my robe of > >innocence why am I guilty and have to pay to prove I am telling the truth > >over and over again just because the year changes. > > What does a "robe of innocence" have to do with anything? We are > talking about regulation within the *commercial* sphere, not a criminal > proceeding. > > And while we're at it, what ever led you to expect that regulation > would be uniform (you call it "fair") from state to state, or even town > to town? That sort of variation is precisely what localized (rather > than federal) control is all about. This is America, and there is > absolutely nothing preventing you from moving to Kentucky if you find > the regulatory and administrative environment in California so onerous. ..oh the old "love it or leave it "I was wondering when that argument was going to come up. the reason I brought up that fact that it is a lot cheaper in some states because one reason the state of Ca. gave for letting farmers use methyl bromine and extend its use even though it was proven a ozone killer was because they feel that farmers in some state still allow it and it would put ca. farmers at a big disadvantage so I felt that the fact that they are so much higher on organic growers than any other state may put ca. organic growers at disadvantage. see my point. > I've built and renovated several houses over the years, and what do you > know --- there's variation in building codes, permit requirements, fee > structure, and administrative burden from place to place. Big deal. > I've also done a major renovation in a jurisdiction where there is no > code at all or even any requirement to get a permit. I've always built > to code (actually, way better than code). I *know* that I build better > than code, but I don't run around being a cry-baby about permits, fees, > and building inspections in those places where they are required. what do you do now? > Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely > normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the > commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation. sounds like that's how you make your living. what do you do now are you one of those paying for this or one of those getting my money from this? what do you do now? it is not normal to over regulate over inspect and over fee and paper work folks it is too much now I expect fairness even in the commercial sphere are you a small grower also do you really think we should just shut up here I thought I was paying attention to a real threat to my survival. > Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop > moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses > --- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival. no one is moaning it may sound like it but this is a time when if we don't talk up they will beat us down. I don't expect unfair regulation and want to do something to stop it and I find the only way a little guy can do anything is to make it known what is going on. I don't have enough money to spend a night in the white house or buy a vote so I guess I will just moan and grown at the unfairness of it all. I guess as long as it is unfair I will moan. I will moan every time feel it . I don't expect unfair unneeded regulations. what do u do for a living? > a) the looming application of HACCP requirements to *all* produce > growers, regardless of size. > > b) the possible application of migrant labor laws to "apprentices / > interns" on organic farms. > > c) the rapid disappearance of small processing plants and > slaughterhouses. > > If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know > about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you > find out sooner rather than later. It *will* affect your operation > within a few years, maybe a few months. It is a major food safety issue > (far more important than chemical residues in terms of the number of > acute illnesses). It can shut you down. The application of HACCP > requirements to produce will almost certainly be nationwide. > > State application of migrant labor laws to apprentices/interns has > already put one vegetable farm out of business. There may be more. > > Small scale processing is one of the best ways for the small grower to > add value to crops. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to > find places who will do this work for you. Many slaughterhouses now set > minimum-kill requirements far in excess of what small growers are able > to bring forward --- 5000 turkeys, for example. > > Energy spent complaining is far better applied to a serious and > dispassionate analysis of the opportunities and threats facing the > business. Coupled with honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses, > such study can make the difference between success and failure. Where > strengths overlap an opportunity, there is the potential for > substantial profit. Where weaknesses overlap a threat, there is a > serious problem. > > HACCP and other potential regulations *are* a substantial threat, > especially for the small grower. In that environment, reactive (as > opposed to adaptive) attitudes towards regulation would seem to be a > significant weakness with the potential to undermine survivability. > thank you for the warning. what ever you do you seem to be on the inside and I do thank you for pointing out this. to me it seems like now is the time to stop the fed. law because now is the time they are splitting the pot. cutting up my money picking my pocket etc. I guess when they dump that other stuff on me I guess I will moan and grown about that too. nothing else we can do -we should expect regulations and more regulations and more regulations and more regulations tell the small are gone and only the big important players are around. regulated out of business. what do u expect . what do you do now for a living that u know so much about farming and regulations that we should expect. I farm I am one of those that have to live by these new laws and I feel it getting worse and worse and you only pointed that out to me more. boss you around that all they do and get paid for that. nice work if you can get it. guess the real money is in regulation not farming. I pay so I get to moan. I do all this stuff so I get to tell the story of how it is not fair.> > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 20:33:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11301 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29359 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:10:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29283 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKW009E2NRQG0@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:52:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:49:53 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Les Miserables In-reply-to: <19991108213209.42121.qmail@hotmail.com> To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" References: <19991108213209.42121.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 Howdy, all-- >The tragic fire that you have referred to did not take place at the >poultry plant in Raeford, NC which processes turkeys. It was in >Rockhingham, NC where they process chickens. Just wanted to let >viewers know the difference. The fact still remains that several >lost their lives. On a sadder note, if some of the employees had >not been stealing from their employer, the doors would not have been >locked, so... who's to blame? >-Kenneth I give up, Kenneth. Who is to blame? Are you suggesting that the theft of chickens by poor people from a corporation deserves the punishment of being burned alive or suffocated? And if so, what would you suggest is just punishment for the executives of large corporations who steal a lot more than chickens? peace misha (who thought that fire took place in Hamlet, NC) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses. -Utah Philips To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 20:33:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11312 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA27480 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:09:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27357 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:09:11 -0500 (EST) From: SustainAg@aol.com Received: from SustainAg@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 7AMMa12208 (4209) for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:06:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.7bc47447.2558cd9f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:06:39 EST Subject: Re: HACCP Regs...keep on top of them! To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 I'm glad to see this discussion on SANET. I have been worrying about the pending HACCP implementation and it's potential impact on small-scale producers and was beginning to wonder if I was the only one. At a USDA/Southern University Small Farm conference in Memphis last April representatives from USDA said they expect the implementation of these new regs to have a significant impact on small-scale livestock/poultry processors. The representatives speaking at the meeting were not even aware of the potential benefits to small farms of custom processing of livestock and poultry for direct sale, and had not even heard of the various "pastured" or "salad bar" livestock initiatives (e.g. Salatin, Lee, etc.). I'm afraid these regs are being developed even more inside the beltway, and in the dark, than usual. At the time these representatives said they were not concerned with on-farm vegetable processing--apparently they hadn't really thought about it--but these new regs have the potential to impact the full range of small-scale value-added initiatives. I'm no longer as up to date as I should be, so I'll add my name to the list of folk who would really appreciate an active discussion of this important issue. Peace to all. Chris Campany BREADA breada@aol.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 20:59:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11567 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA13071 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:34:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13067 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-105-62.s285.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.105.62]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06068; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:31:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382779C2.9E8C37BE@erols.com> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:32:50 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Misha CC: SANET-mg Subject: Re: Les Miserables References: <19991108213209.42121.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 I say - steal all the chickens you can while there's still time. In favor of picking their pockets before they pick ours - Robert. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 21:51:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12076 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16343 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16325 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:28:02 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.76]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:26:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108201246.007d8dd0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:12:46 -0600 To: Subject: Poultry Plant Fire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 On a >>sadder note, if some of the employees had not been stealing from their >>employer, the doors would not have been locked, so... who's to blame? Wait a minute here folks. Are we also going to blame the victims of Egypt Airlines crash since they were in a plane with a defect or some malfunction beyond their control? Did the poultry plant fire only burn the women who were accused of stealing chicken? If you steal from me, at what monentary value lost do I have the right to kill you? $5, $100? Is the poultry industry so backwards that they have not heard of fire doors wired to alarm when opened? The courts have already settled this question and as I recall, the father took the hit for his son's actions and is now in prison. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 22:02:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12399 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24226 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:40:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24210 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-186.rain.org [198.68.144.186]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A61686174A; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:37:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007b01bf2a5b$660a3a00$ba9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" Cc: References: Subject: Re: USDA organic certification Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:37:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sal Cc: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:39 AM Subject: Re: USDA organic certification > Hi Sal, > > Thanks for the quote from the CCOF newsletter. I'll have to look > into this. It's been about 5 months since I worked on this issue, > but it was my understanding that those convoluted and confusing > ISO-65 rules specifically required "third party" certification which > supposedly meant a gov't body. I think that maybe those big > certifiers have gotten around this (not being able to use US gov't > program) by getting the EU-approved certifiers to automatically > "re-certify" their products when they go to the EU. But the whole > thing is very confusing. I'm going to have to also look into all > those taxes you're talking about too. I work on a couple of projects > at once, and I have two on the back burner right now that are > relevant to this conversation. One is regarding the cost of > certification (I compared different types of certifiers around the > country) and the other is looking at the barriers to export of US > organic product. Part of the problem with keeping up with all this > too is that it's constantly changing. . there was more to that USDA Approves CCOF's ISO-65 Complance it went like this "Site evaluators,Jim Riva from MCGP and Beth Heyden from the National Organic Program visited CCOF August 24-27. The evaluators checked to see that CCOF had documented certification policies and procedures, and that it was following these policies and procedures. The evaluators (I like the sound of that evaluators)also paid a visit to the office of CCOF's Central Coast Cortication Coordinator to assess ISO-65 conformance at the chapter level. Though the evaluators found a few points of non-conformance all were considered "areas for continuous improvement" and did not negatively affect final approval. now that is what I call the way to do it. short and sweet . > If it's any consolation to you, the organic people at USDA that I > have met (and work with) are very sincere in their desire to help the > organic farmers and the organic market. Also, there have been some > changings of the guarde since the first organic rules came out, and > in general, I think that the people in charge of this program are > genuinely interested in it and committed to good outcomes. (However, > I don't know about whatever constraints to this they may be facing > still.) I would, say that anyone's comments to the USDA at this time > will probably be received in the most positive environment they have > had there to date. > Anita Good that is good to hear. I don't think we need to be inspected every year . certifiers say they don't have enough inspectors now and I don't feel that my organicness has changed enough from year to year to warrant these cost every year. If you want to save the farmers money this is one way to do it . I think the years of transition a inspection is needed and the inspector can point out what is not organic and a inspection when granted organicness. but once a grower knows what is right and not they don't really need to be inspected so much. I have trees and they are in the same spot every year I do the same things every year and my farm plan is really the same year in and year out. there is no reason for this cost just because the year changes I really need my money so you could make it a lot cheaper if you hold those inspections down to once every 5 years or so or just once and again if there are complaints or changes in the way one farms . no changes no inspection you think that is a unreasonable request. the cost of inspection is high and if there is no need for so many so why beat the grower out of his money. and what I mean by so many taxes on the grower in Ca. will the state of Ca. charges us by how much we make and they also charge our certifier which hand that cost down to me and my certifier charges me for the same thing the state charges me for and also wants paper work and then the inspector charges me for the inspection and the fed . gov. wants to charge my certifier maybe my inspector and me for the same thing they all charge me for. don't you think that is a little to much . don't you think just an inspector would be enough or the state or the certifier or the fed. gov. do I really need all these folks all charging me what the market will bear. I was inspected twice the same week one year once by my inspector and 4 days later by the state and handed them both the same paper work and it hit me this is over regulation and no one care because I am paying for it all. if they were paying for it I bet they would not inspect so often but because I am paying for it all what the heck. I have been to meeting and I have heard with my own ears make the farmers do this and lets make them do that and someone says who is going to pay for it and it ends up the grower pays for all if it. the inspection the soil test the certifier the state the USDA and on and on everyone want to get into the act. I am not complaining I am trying to change it and make it more fair to the grower. no one is protecting the grower by over taxing I count all this a tax on growing organic every one of these players demands his pound of flesh. to many to much thanks for taking the time and lending an ear. > > thank you for you thoughts and ideas > > I read in the CCOF newsletter that "The USDA's Meat Certification and > > Grading Program (MCGP) has verified that CCOF conforms to the basic > > requirements of ISO -65, the international standard for certification > > programs. The approval means that CCOF-certified products should now be > > approved for entry into European Union (EU) countries. The EU organic > > regulations require imported organic products to be certified by an > > organization that meets the ISO-65 Standards. Other ISO-65 approved > > certification programs includes Farm Verified Organic-Quality Assurance > > International and Organic Growers and Buyers Association . Several other > > certifier site evaluations and approvals are pending. so u see all I need > > is CCOF or QAI or OG or FVO and I can voluntary join them if I need that. > > easy > > see how easy things work out . > > so why make a federal case out of it? why the extra state Ca. tax and the > > Fed Tax and the force certification for all and the once size fits all and > > the pay pay pay year after year. give us a USDA definition of organic and > > lets get on with business you don't have to take us over you don't have to > > make this any harder . you see Anita we are making it work out now . this > > should also make for more reciprocity between group of certifiers and a lot > > has changed . it has been years when the USDA started this and now the > > government has seen it does not want to be a burden to small folks with > > extra paper work (save those trees) and their non funded state and fed. > > mandates so now is the time to stop the Ca. Ag. organic tax if one is > > already certified by a recognized certifier. and it is time the Fed. gov. > > lets business take care of itself, as it is doing for itself now quite will > > thank-you. > Anita Graf > Research Coordinator > Market Development of Organic Agricultural Products > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Nov 8 17:00:31 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07688 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02696 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:32:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta006.topica.com (outmta006.topica.com [206.132.75.208]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02551 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:32:48 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Resource Pointer #225 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 13:30:12 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.1501933392-212058698-942096612@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Resource Pointer #225 November 8, 1999 For copies of the following resources, please contact the appropriate publishers or organizations directly. *Ecological Policy and Politics in Developing Countries: Economic Growth, Democracy, and Environment, 1998* Uday Desai, ed. Provides analysis of ecological problems, policies and politics in ten countries. Focuses on international context of domestic environmental policies and explores institutional forces shaping each country's environmental policies. Chapters cover Czech Republic, China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Nigeria, Taiwan, Thailand, Slovakia and Venezuela. 327 pp. US$27.95. Contact CUP Services, 750 Cascadilla Street, P.O. Box 6525, Ithaca, NY 14851; phone (607) 277-2211; fax (607) 277-6292 *Uprooting Injustice/Desarraigar a la Injusticia, 1999* Sandy Smith-Nonini. Reports on working conditions for North Carolina farmworkers. Describes substandard housing conditions, lack of sanitary facilities and workers' exposure to pesticides. Provides overview of Mt. Olive Pickle Company production process and describes boycott organized by Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC). English and Spanish. 32 pp. US$6. Contact Institute for Southern Studies, P.O. Box 531, Durham, NC 27702; phone (919) 419-8311; fax (919) 419-8315; email info@i4south.org *Plaguicidas en México 1991-1998: Carpeta de Prensa, 1999* Patricia Díaz Romo et al. Collection of articles on pesticides published 1991-1998 in newspapers throughout Mexico. Includes special sections on pesticide use and problems in Sinaloa state; exposure of Huichol indigenous population; ANAVERSA disaster; and use of herbicides to combat water lilies in Chapala lake. 346 pp. US$10. Contact Instituto Tecnológico y de Estudios Superiores de Occidente (ITESO), Oficina de Extensión Universitaria, Periférico Sur 8585, C.P. 45090, Tlaquepaque, Jalisco, Mexico; phone (01-3) 6693485; email publicaciones@iteso.mx *Usos y Alternativas al Bromuro de Metilo en México, 1999* Fernando Bejarano González. Provides overview of Montreal Protocol, international efforts to eliminate methyl bromide, and use of methyl bromide in Mexico. Describes methyl bromide distribution systems in Mexico, role of transnational suppliers and alternatives to methyl bromide. Includes tables showing national consumption of methyl bromide, 1992-98; hectares treated with fumigants; alternative means of controlling soil pathogens; and more. Spanish. 20 pp. US$10. Contact Red de Acción sobre Plaguicidas y Alternativas en México (RAPAM), Amado Nervo 22, Colonia San Juanito, Texcoco, Estado de México, C.P. 56121, Mexico; phone/fax (595) 47744; email rapam@mpsnet.com.mx *Compendium of Strawberry Diseases, Second Edition, 1998* 98 pp. US$37. Provides comprehensive information for plant pathologists and others in diagnosis of strawberry diseases. Chapters cover noninfectious disorders caused by genetic and environmental factors; infectious diseases; and arthropod and mollusk pests. Contact APS Press, 3340 Pilot Knob Road, St. Paul, MN 55121-2097; phone (800) 328-7560 or (651) 454-7250; email aps@scisoc.org; website http://www.scisoc.org We encourage those interested in having resources listed in the PANUPS Resource Pointer to send review copies of publications, videos or other resources to our office. =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ We've got email newsletters galore! Check 'em out at Topica. http://www.topica.com/t/5 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 8 23:57:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14285 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24192 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24091 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.30 (mx3-16.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.30]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22508; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:10:30 -0600 Message-ID: <3827A276.5E77@smallfarms.com> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 18:26:30 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: SustainAg@aol.com Subject: Re: HACCP Regs...keep on top of them Re: HACCP Regs...keep on top of them! Re: HACCP Regs...keep on top of them! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 Dear Chris, Laurie, Edna, Bart and others: I've been hearing and reading all sorts of smoke and mirrors things about these regs., and how they will affect the small farmer, community-based food initiatives, etc. I understand that the food safety guide for farmers at the FDA page which follows is the basis for what the regulations will be. (http://www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/prodguid.html). I'm not certain if this is the same information which Laurie posted earlier (http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/prodguid.html). They appear identical. The certifying organizations who will oversee these regs. are private sector as I understand it, and they've been doing presentations on how the regs. will be implemented. They are the same organizations whose logos and seals appear on the ads for large supermarket chains in large metropolitian areas. It appears that corporate food processors are on board with the development of the regulations, again, only from what I've heard. Does anyone know where these new regulations are being developed? Is the small farmer perspective being presented? glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 01:28:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15171 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04836 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04736 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14988; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:09:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04884; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:09:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:09:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Bluestem Associates cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: HACCP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Bluestem Associates wrote: > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:39:32 > From: Bluestem Associates > To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" > Subject: Re: HACCP > > On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:16:46 -0700, Edna M Weigel wrote: > > >Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in 100 > >words or less? > > Analyse your entire operation from beginning to end to determine which > elements present the possibility of contamination with human pathogens. > > Having determined the elements of risk, analyse each element in detail > to determine at what points it is possible to control contamination, > should it have occurred. > > For each of those critical control points establish procedures for > contamination control. Critical procedures must be precisely defined > and measurable. > > Implement systems of *documented* monitoring at each CCP to ensure that > requisite conditions have been met. > > Develop mandatory procedures for situations in which CCP requisite > conditions have not been met, including precise criteria for > determining at what point the threat has been removed and normal > procedures and monitoring can be resumed. > > > BTW, it's 117 words, so please forgive the extra verbiage, but broadly > put, that should about get it. Some practitioners choose to include > contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts, and so on, though > strictly speaking HACCP is primarily orientated towards microbial > contamination. > > On a small vegetable farm it will profoundly affect (amongst other > things): manure handling, manure/compost applications, supervision of > anyone touching the vegetables, how vegetables are picked, cooled and > stored, sanitation on the packing line, and supervision of packing line > workers. If you think organic certification is a pain in the bottom, > just wait until you have to have a system capable of ensuring that all > who touch the vegetables have washed their hands after the toilet. Proper sanitation _is_ extremely important but I imagine that if these regulations are enforced 90% of US small growers will go out of business. It seems obvious that "contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts" should be included in procedures to ensure sanitation of product. I just love the way not a word was mentioned about pesticides; its almost as if Dennis Avery had a hand in that special feature. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 01:39:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15322 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA09121 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09117 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15064 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA14857 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:16:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:16:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 > And while we're at it, what ever led you to expect that regulation > would be uniform (you call it "fair") from state to state, or even town > to town? That sort of variation is precisely what localised (rather > than federal) control is all about. This is America, and there is > absolutely nothing preventing you from moving to Kentucky if you find > the regulatory and administrative environment in California so onerous. That's ludicrous, pure and simple. I thought this new effort by government to become involved in the organic foods industry was to set NATIONAL standards to benefit the entire country and the entire world. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 01:49:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15413 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA14881 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14776 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15182; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27251; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:29:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:29:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Misha cc: SANET-mg Subject: Re: Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Misha wrote: Kenneth, cornered by hordes of rabid cockapoos, was forced to utter: > >The tragic fire that you have referred to did not take place at the > >poultry plant in Raeford, NC which processes turkeys. It was in > >Rockhingham, NC where they process chickens. Just wanted to let > >viewers know the difference. The fact still remains that several > >lost their lives. On a sadder note, if some of the employees had > >not been stealing from their employer, the doors would not have been > >locked, so... who's to blame? > >-Kenneth Kennie-boy's just 'nother one of 'em. I have heard this BS live from jackasses like him. Sad but true. > I give up, Kenneth. Who is to blame? > > Are you suggesting that the theft of chickens by poor people from a > corporation deserves the punishment of being burned alive or > suffocated? That's exactly what he means but he's too much of a sycophant to actually come out and say it. Just another low life. > And if so, what would you suggest is just punishment for the > executives of large corporations who steal a lot more than chickens? Kennie-boy isn't capable of dealing with that on any level. He just goes out and smokes another cigarette. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 02:13:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15679 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 02:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01293 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01288 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15479; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27470; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:57:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:57:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Misha cc: SANET-mg Subject: Re: Les Miserables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 > Kenneth, cornered by hordes of rabid cockapoos, was forced to utter: > > > >The tragic fire that you have referred to did not take place at the > > >poultry plant in Raeford, NC which processes turkeys. It was in > > >Rockhingham, NC where they process chickens. Just wanted to let > > >viewers know the difference. The fact still remains that several > > >lost their lives. On a sadder note, if some of the employees had > > >not been stealing from their employer, the doors would not have been > > >locked, so... who's to blame? > > >-Kenneth Kennie-boy forgets that the KKK gunned to death 5 CWP (Communist Workers Party) members during a rally to protest the role of the Klan and maltreatment of African Americans in NC, and I am sure they meant to include maltreatment of poultry plant workers (black and white) as well. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 07:42:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17499 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA21784 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:06:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21643 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from main.nrg.com.au (IDENT:root@main.nrg.com.au [203.16.176.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29699 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from fresherb.nrg.com.au (nrgline06.nrg.com.au [203.16.176.206]) by main.nrg.com.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27737; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:33:27 +0930 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991109230241.0071e174@nrg.com.au> X-Sender: fresherb@nrg.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 23:02:46 +1100 To: Edna M Weigel From: David Hine Subject: Re: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) Cc: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Edna and all While Bluestem has given a pretty good explanation about HACCP, I don't accept the suggestion that it is only about microbial contamination or that it ignores chemical contamination from whatever source. In fact as it is interpreted here, microbial contamination is perhaps the most serious becase a single contamination/expsoure could prove fatal to a consumer. This is less likely with chemicals. You are required to taek note of every input into your product. So for our conventionally grown culinary herbs we are required not only to have the pesticide application records on hand and only use registered substances, but also have records, as Bluestem points out, that the staff wash the work surfaces before starting harvesting in the morning, and wash their hands and record that they have done so. We also record the temperatures of our coolrooms at specified times(bacterial contamination prevention) and so it goes..... These requirements come from two sources: government heatlh departments wanting to show they are dong useful things to protect citizens, and businesses worried about lawsuits from consumers. This last reason is a very good one to put a HACCP based system in place on your farm. Here in Australia it is nearly an ablsolute requirement if you want to sell produce through major outlets and soon will be an absolute obligation no matter where you sell. The requirtements themselves and the HACCP approach derive from ISO9000 series standards which are (as I recall) Internation Standards Organsiation 9000 series generic rules for food production systems. I believe the whole initiative is part of a UN/WHO program, but am happy to be corrected. You'll often see ISO9001 and HACCP mentioned together. Ther is no doubt that this will put pressure on smaller food producers who will not be able to justify the cost of developing food safety programs, and the ongoing costs of auditing. This will probably mean a decline again in the number of small farms. There will doubtless be some programs to make a lower cost approach accessible. The government of Western Australia developed SQF2000 as a lower cost program to assist food producers. A search may bring you to suitable web pages. THere are two issues I see so far in implementing HACCP: 1./ The costs are not able to be recouped as for the most part food producers/farmers are price takers, not price setters(please no glowing words about the magic of the marketplace). Ultimately the grower who gets certified should have an advantage over the uncertified, but, we feel we have some clients who buy from us just to get some paperwork to show and buy lots without paperwork/uncertified. 2./ A great many of the precautions which become necessary are either bad for the environment or have bad implications for human health. For example we use an antibacterial spray and paper towels to clean our work surfaces three times a day. We are most certainly building up resistant strains of bacteria on the surfaces, and this process, done on the large scale it is being done on now, probably will produce more serious illness than if we(all) didn't spray antibacterials. Some are chlorinating their irrigation water... It is quite staggering to see our federal governmetn soften the regulations on labelling of GMO food on the basis that it costs too much to implement while pushing HACCP on farmers. David At 14:16 08/11/99 -0700, you wrote: >>From Bluestem Associates: >(snip) >If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know >about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you >find out sooner rather than later. >(snip) >Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in 100 >words or less? >Regards, Edna > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > David Hine Atkins Rd. Cawongla via Kyogle NSW 2474 Australia http://nrg.com.au/~fresherb Sustainable Agriculture: Productivity, System Resilience, Maintenance of Natural Assets, and Equity for Producers. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:14:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17885 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17275 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:44:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17271 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 338; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:49:31 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991109063127.0138ed10@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 06:31:27 -0600 To: mmiller@pcsia.com, From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re: Poultry Plant Fire In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991108201246.007d8dd0@pcsia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 Since when do accusations of theft by employers turn into statement of fact? When did accusation turn into conviction? When did accusation turn into justification for capital punishment? What is going on in America? At 08:12 PM 11/8/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > On a >>>sadder note, if some of the employees had not been stealing from their >>>employer, the doors would not have been locked, so... who's to blame? > >Wait a minute here folks. Are we also going to blame the victims of Egypt >Airlines crash since they were in a plane with a defect or some malfunction >beyond their control? Did the poultry plant fire only burn the women who >were accused of stealing chicken? If you steal from me, at what monentary >value lost do I have the right to kill you? $5, $100? Is the poultry >industry so backwards that they have not heard of fire doors wired to alarm >when opened? > >The courts have already settled this question and as I recall, the father >took the hit for his son's actions and is now in prison. Mike Miller > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:27:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18112 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20968 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:03:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20961 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:03:46 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.66]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:01:47 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991109064827.007f4b80@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 06:48:27 -0600 To: Subject: Deja Vu : HACCP & Local Butcher Shops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 >Proper sanitation _is_ extremely important but I imagine that if these >regulations are enforced 90% of US small growers will go out of business. >It seems obvious that "contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts" >should be included in procedures to ensure sanitation of product. > >I just love the way not a word was mentioned about pesticides; its almost >as if Dennis Avery had a hand in that special feature. Well intentioned (but unnecessary???) sanitary regulations put a lot of local butcher shops out of business in the 60's. That loss of competition still haunts us today in the monoply control of the meat packing industry and livestock markets. Could some of the older list members who are knowledgeable of those times help us understand what happened then so we can avoid repeating it now? You know the famous quote about those that if you don't learn from history you are bound to repeat it? Speaking of regulations etc., add a smile to your coffee this morning with this reprise of a post I received from somewhere since my last windows crash. Mike Miller >>A NEW ELEMENT IS DISCOVERED >>* Submitted by J Lans >> ____________________________________ >> >>The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by >>investigators at a major US research university. The element, tentatively, >>named "ADMINISTRATIUM", appears to be very closely related to BUREAUCRATIUM-a >>known deadly poison. "ADMINISTRATIUM" has no >>protons or electrons and thus has anatomic number of O. >> >>Upon initial inspection, however, it does have: >>* one neutron, >>* 125 assistant neutrons, >>* 75 vice neutrons and >>* 111 assistant vice neutrons, which together gives it an atomic mass >>of 312. >> >>PROPERTIES >>----------- >>* These 312 particles are held together by a force that involves the >>continuous exchange of meson-like particles called MORONS. >>* It is also surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles >>called >>PEONS. >> >>Since it has no electrons, administratium is inert. However, it can be >>detected chemically as it impedes every reaction it comes in contact with. >>According to the discoverers, a minute amount of administratium causes one >>reaction to take over four days to complete when it would have normally >>occurred in less than a second. >> >>Administratium has a normal half-life of approximately THREE YEARS, at which >>time it does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which >>assistant neutrons, vice neutrons and assistant vice neutrons exchange >>places. Some studies have shown that the atomic mass actually INCREASES >>after each reorganization. >> >>OCCURRENCES >>----------- >>Research at other laboratories indicates that administratium occurs >>naturally in the atmosphere. It tends to concentrate at certain points such >>as government agencies, large corporations, and universities. It can usually >>be found in the newest, best appointed, and best maintained buildings. >> >>Scientists point out that administratium is known to be toxic at any level >>of concentration and can easily destroy any productive reaction where it is >>allowed to accumulate. Attempts are being made to determine how >>administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible damage, but results >>to date are not promising. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:37:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18310 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21911 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:10:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21893 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:14:01 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.167] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD11241F021C; Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:09:37 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:07:45 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: HACCP Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:09:35 -0500 (EST), Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: >Proper sanitation _is_ extremely important but I imagine that if these >regulations are enforced 90% of US small growers will go out of business. This stuff is important, indeed. Several people died in eastern Canada a few years back because they got Listeria from small-scale organic sauerkraut. I've inspected some small farms that are worse than anything I saw in Bolivia, as far as sanitation was concerned. To be told I was "just up-tight, man" certainly solidified my opinion that if they can't clean it up, such operations *should* be shut down. As it stands right now, the small operations that do a good job are at a something of a competitive disadvantage compared to the ones that are just winging it. >It seems obvious that "contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts" >should be included in procedures to ensure sanitation of product. > >I just love the way not a word was mentioned about pesticides; its almost >as if Dennis Avery had a hand in that special feature. The HACCP approach lends itself reasonably well to risk reduction in relation to all of the non-microbial contaminants and pollutants you mentioned above. Strictly speaking, however, HACCP focuses on microbial contamination. The good growers out there are already applying a modified HACCP approach to all sorts of risks, including pesticides. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:39:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18323 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22708 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:15:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22680 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:18:54 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.167] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE36986D002C; Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:14:30 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:12:38 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: HACCP & Microbes Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 The main reason for different treatment of microbes and everything else is that microbes reproduce. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:49:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18440 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23909 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:22:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23875 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14401 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 13:20:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.35.5) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 13:20:40 -0000 Message-ID: <04db01bf2ab4$73508580$8b28d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: , Subject: A couple of snippets Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:15:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 A pragmatic point: >For >example we use an antibacterial spray and paper towels to clean our work >surfaces three times a day. We are most certainly building up resistant >strains of bacteria on the surfaces, and this process, done on the large >scale it is being done on now, probably will produce more serious illness >than if we(all) didn't spray antibacterials. What about steam cleaning? Hard to imagine important pathogenic bacteria becoming resistant to that, and products for steam cleaning even domestically are becoming available.... A political one: > >Since when do accusations of theft by employers turn into statement of >fact? When did accusation turn into conviction? When did accusation turn >into justification for capital punishment? What is going on in America? Class struggle? Frank Teuton---this 'who's to blame' thread has him steamed, and that's a fact! To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 08:49:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18448 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23908 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:22:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23874 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14401 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 13:20:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.35.5) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 13:20:40 -0000 Message-ID: <04db01bf2ab4$73508580$8b28d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: , Subject: A couple of snippets Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:15:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 A pragmatic point: >For >example we use an antibacterial spray and paper towels to clean our work >surfaces three times a day. We are most certainly building up resistant >strains of bacteria on the surfaces, and this process, done on the large >scale it is being done on now, probably will produce more serious illness >than if we(all) didn't spray antibacterials. What about steam cleaning? Hard to imagine important pathogenic bacteria becoming resistant to that, and products for steam cleaning even domestically are becoming available.... A political one: > >Since when do accusations of theft by employers turn into statement of >fact? When did accusation turn into conviction? When did accusation turn >into justification for capital punishment? What is going on in America? Class struggle? Frank Teuton---this 'who's to blame' thread has him steamed, and that's a fact! To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 09:41:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19128 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08697 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:16:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (gaes.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08636 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sareace2.griffin.peachnet.edu (sareace2.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.65]) by gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA14458 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:14:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911091414.JAA14458@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gwen Roland" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:08:23 +0500 Subject: Spanish-titled research reports X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 At a recent Southern Region SARE meeting, a representative from Puerto Rico suggested it would benefit many Spanish speaking farmers if the titles of research reports on our web site could be listed in Spanish as well as English. She said that many farmers have limited time to spend on public computers in libraries and they generally print off documents to read later at home. They are thwarted from locating potentially useful reports by English-only titles. Once they locate and print the English documents, she said it is not difficult for them to have someone translate it for them. The English-only people at our meeting were surprised that just listing titles in Spanish could be useful. While translating all of our research reports into Spanish at this time is not feasible, the titles on our Southern Region SARE reports could be managed. Have any of you who post research documents received similar requests? Do any of you who work with Spanish speaking farmers think it would be useful? Does anyone on this list work as a Spanish translator? I realize we need to hire a translator who is knowledgable about sustainable agriculture. Right now the titles for all Southern Region reports would amount to about four pages or less. How much should we expect to pay for that amount of translation? Thanks for your input. Gwen Roland Southern Region SARE 1109 Experiment Street Griffin, GA 30223 Ph: (770) 412-4786 Fax: (770) 412-4789 http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 09:41:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19132 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08529 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:15:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08510 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:03:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'MarcSafley'" Subject: National Organic Standards Act Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:03:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 Forwarding... Replies to Marc.Safley@usda.gov who IS subscribed to sanet. Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:00:18 -0500 From: "Marc Safley" To: Subject: National Organic Standards Act There has been a tremendous amount of "back-and-forth" about USDA organic certification by this group. And with the re-proposed rule due out sometime soon, perhaps someone could help us with the context within which it was developed. To wit... When the National Organic Standards Act was enacted by Congress, who testified for it? Which private sector groups promoted the need for it? Did any organic farmers testify for it? Or against it? ----------- Marc Safley To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 10:10:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19555 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:10:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19003 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:32:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18998 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-126.rain.org [198.68.144.126]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CDF8061748; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:30:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004301bf2abe$e5dbbfc0$7e9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Bluestem Associates" , References: Subject: Re: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:29:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Bluestem Associates To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:03 PM Subject: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) > On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote: > > >I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic > >enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over me > >. if you think I am lying get a searchwarrent convince a judge you have a > >reason to look. this is America I don't have to prove I am not guilty every > >year year after year. you don't ask that of chemical grower why pick on me. > > >why you forcing us to play these games is wrong. in some states you pay $10 > >in some states you pay 2000 dollars for the same verification whets is fair > >about that. why do I pay more in Ca. than Ky. what is far about that. how > >the Fed. gov. and state force me to pay more here than in KY. > > >the fairness of the same prices for the same thing ? where is my robe of > >innocence why am I guilty and have to pay to prove I am telling the truth > >over and over again just because the year changes. > > What does a "robe of innocence" have to do with anything? We are > talking about regulation within the *commercial* sphere, not a criminal > proceeding. > > And while we're at it, what ever led you to expect that regulation > would be uniform (you call it "fair") from state to state, or even town > to town? That sort of variation is precisely what localised (rather > than federal) control is all about. This is America, and there is > absolutely nothing preventing you from moving to Kentucky if you find > the regulatory and administrative environment in California so onerous. ok ok now I see where u are coming from.Now I understand why you called me a crybaby .so your one of those inspectors not a builder I guess there is more money in inspection and you have so much power and now well I guess you know where the money is at. I feel that the inspection is the most expensive part of the whole process. what do you get a hour? and what other expenses do you charge the organic grower. do you think we need a inspection every year . are there farms that u feel don't need to be inspected every year. can you think of any way to make inspections cheaper? I mean out here they are getting $20 and $30 dollars a hour and 3/4 pay for the drive plus room and board . what do u charge ? we have no control how long they take or what they charge us. what can a farmer do if he get a power-hungry inspector that is more concerned about building a rep and his pocket book and is making his bones by how many organic grower he can nail to the cross. what protection does a grower have from a lying inspector. do you think all inspectors are honest. I think you guys need more regulation lots more regulation you all are way out of control and farmer have to pay what u ask . If you want a raise do you just take it . who is to protect the grower from power-hungry inspectors . tell us a little about how much your business has grown and how much we should love regulation and expect it. how much do you make every year can we talk with some of the folks you did not pass and see what a great job u are doing. these organic regulations have been very good to u. now I see why u don't like complaints and why you say we should expect regulations hell a dog has to protect his bone. I am trying to protect my bone and can see where u are coming from now. > I've built and renovated several houses over the years, and what do you > know --- there's variation in building codes, permit requirements, fee > structure, and administrative burden from place to place. Big deal. > I've also done a major renovation in a jurisdiction where there is no > code at all or even any requirement to get a permit. I've always built > to code (actually, way better than code). I *know* that I build better > than code, but I don't run around being a cry-baby about permits, fees, > and building inspections in those places where they are required. now I see u found there is more money in bleeding the organic turnips. > Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely > normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the > commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation. that's easy for u to say your making your living bleeding the turnips. > Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop > moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses > --- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival. this is the part i like the most reading a inspector tell organic small growers to stop moaning over over regulation. I see were u are coming from now. well i guess every one is justified in their own eyes. sure I can see now why you want forced certification of every organic growers that makes over $5000 heck your a inspector. I see what your fighting for a bigger bone. tell me I should expect regulation inspections permits fees and paper work you on the other end u get the fees . To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 10:10:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19559 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19044 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19039 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11lCID-0004bK-00; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:30:41 +0100 Message-ID: <382834EB.DF15ED24@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:51:23 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: HACCP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 I would like to comment a little. HACCP was as far as I know an initiative from the WHO which asked for a sharper hygiene control system throughout the whole foodchain. Initially agriculture was left out but under pressure from the foodindustry it now seems to be implemented in agriculture also. In itself I do not oppose that because as a (very small) foodcompany I got confronted with all kind of hygienerules but no demands on the first producers, so it could have worked out that I was treating very dirty produced meat with the greatest possible hygienice care. That does not make sense. However, I am not convinced that the demands that come from HACCP are all really sensible. I think it is of great importance to find out what exactly proper sanitation is. HACCP seems to have a view on this which I do not necessarily share. I do know that in practice HACCP has undermined a number of old, classical ways of foodprocessing and also it has undermined the use of non-chemical cleaning products. I have worked for a few years as a restaurantmanager. One could argue that from the HACCP perspective my kitchen was a mess. However, since the kitchen was mainly vegetarian, almost completely organic and the warm and cold kitchen were sufficiently separated, not one person has suffered food poisoning in that restaurant. (The foodcontaminationguide for restaurants stated that 75% of foodpoisoning comes from meat.) I do not know how it works out for farms, but I can imagine that a lot of the HACCP rules are exaggerated. They were at least for my restaurant. wytze Bluestem Associates wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:09:35 -0500 (EST), Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > >Proper sanitation _is_ extremely important but I imagine that if these > >regulations are enforced 90% of US small growers will go out of business. > > This stuff is important, indeed. Several people died in eastern Canada > a few years back because they got Listeria from small-scale organic > sauerkraut. I've inspected some small farms that are worse than > anything I saw in Bolivia, as far as sanitation was concerned. To be > told I was "just up-tight, man" certainly solidified my opinion that if > they can't clean it up, such operations *should* be shut down. > > As it stands right now, the small operations that do a good job are at > a something of a competitive disadvantage compared to the ones that are > just winging it. > > >It seems obvious that "contamination by toxins, grease, insect parts" > >should be included in procedures to ensure sanitation of product. > > > >I just love the way not a word was mentioned about pesticides; its almost > >as if Dennis Avery had a hand in that special feature. > > The HACCP approach lends itself reasonably well to risk reduction in > relation to all of the non-microbial contaminants and pollutants you > mentioned above. Strictly speaking, however, HACCP focuses on microbial > contamination. The good growers out there are already applying a > modified HACCP approach to all sorts of risks, including pesticides. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 15:28:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27854 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04958 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:32:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f294.hotmail.com [207.82.251.185]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA04935 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 80278 invoked by uid 0); 9 Nov 1999 19:29:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19991109192938.80277.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.173.73.87 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 1999 11:29:38 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.173.73.87] From: "J. S." To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 11:29:38 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 hhmmmmmm.....wonder if they were paid a living wage??!! From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1418 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:32:08 EST Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: "Regarding meat: Remember the deaths of the poultry processing workers in the plant in Raeford, NC when the plant caught fire and workers were trapped inside because the exit doors were locked from the outside - the USDA plant inspectors had not done the job they were PAID to do, had hardly ever visited the plant. Despicable b......s." The tragic fire that you have referred to did not take place at the poultry plant in Raeford, NC which processes turkeys. It was in Rockhingham, NC where they process chickens. Just wanted to let viewers know the difference. The fact still remains that several lost their lives. On a sadder note, if some of the employees had not been stealing from their employer, the doors would not have been locked, so... who's to blame? -Kenneth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 16:39:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29370 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22926 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:41:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22854 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.253.44.25] (H1311.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.44.25]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29572 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:39:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: emm19@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199911091246.HAA17663@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:38:25 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Ellen M. Morrison" Subject: so much for hemp development? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 Thought folks on the listserv would be interested in this. ENN Live Chat Tuesday's live chat Last year, state and federal law enforcement agents hand-plucked 55,311 marijuana plants from Florida soil. In July, Florida's drug czar announced that he wanted to release a pot-eating fungus to finish off the state's domestic crop of marijuana. "If science says this is a safe way to effectively eradicate drug crops, then that's a good discovery," he says. "It's science." But scientists who regularly work in the agricultural field have reservations. Come to a live ENN chat with Tom Dean, Litigation Director of the NORML Foundation, on America's drug policy and the potential of this bio-technology. Nov. 9 >from 2-3 p.m. Eastern. For more information: <http://chat.enn.com Ellen (Emmy) Morrison Biological Control of Non-Indigenous Plant Species Program Fernow Hall, Cornell University Ithaca NY 14853 (607) 275-3786 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 16:42:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29438 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03883 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:03:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03876 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11884 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EQZUWYMU; Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:57:23 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:20:53 -0700 Subject: Bermuda grass Message-ID: <19991109.134056.3502.2.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,10,16,20-23 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 I thought I had finally moved away from Bermuda grass (lawns in Tucson and Phoenix make it nearly impossible to do in the city) when I moved to our own 10 acres of Arizona. But I've discovered 3 small patches of it along our driveway. In fact, some of it is IN the driveway. In the past, I've gotten rid of it by digging out what I could then planting pumpkins which shaded the rest of it out. When I told our Master Gardener Class about this, our county agent insisted that I must not have had Bermuda grass because "it's been proven that only glycophosphate will kill Bermuda grass". So please don't suggest I ask the County Agent--I already know his answer. I'm unwilling to use Roundup on my property but I'm also unwilling to tolerate this terrible weed. I've dug up what is in (and very close to) the drive way and piled a "hay stack" of less noxious weeds on top of what is a few feet away from the drive with the plan of leaving the hay stack in place indefinately. But I anticipate having trouble in the drive. By the way, I had originally thought Bermuda would grow only where it got irrigation here in this part of high desert, but this is in a broad dry wash that gets flooded in the monsoons and is still moist after nearly two months of no measurable rain. Any suggestions? Regards, Edna Weigel ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 16:49:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29537 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03881 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:03:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03871 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11882 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EQZUWYN7; Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:57:23 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:40:55 -0700 Subject: Phosphorus Message-ID: <19991109.134056.3502.3.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8,15,19-20 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 The soil test I paid for before I started my current garden indicated 10 ppm nitrate and 1.9 ppm phosphorus The lab recommended 6 pounds of nitrogen per 1000 sq. ft three times and 28 pounds phosphorus once. I haven't made the recommended additions but my garden seems to be doing fine except for things like weather and grasshoppers. Meanwhile, Ronald Nigh and others have convinced me that the fact that I do a lot of mulching encourages nitrogen-fixing bacteria, so I'm not worried about nitrogen. (I never have added the amounts of nitrogen that the Master Gardener Book says I have to.) But I'm wondering about phosphorus; do soil tests show total phosphorus or only that that is "available"? From my days as a chemist, I am fully aware that phosphorus can be tied up in very insoluable compounds. (I remember one test for pyro phosphate in which we boiled the sample something like 24 hours in dilute acid before we could measure the total phosphate.) From my reading, I am also aware of microbial activity that makes phosphorus more available. How concerned should I be? Will my efforts to add organic matter (which soon will include composted chicken manure and bedding) and continued mulching encourage the microbial life that will make phosphorus available? Regards, Edna Weigel ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 16:49:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29545 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06160 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:17:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06152 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [144.92.244.229] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id PAA104758 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:15:07 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991109151448.0071b3f4@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:14:48 -0600 To: citnet-list@citnet.org, ecomda@danenet.wicip.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Michelle M. Miller" Subject: farmers market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 =========== For More Information: Suzanne Pingree (608) 262-0588 or 262-8826 spingree@facstaff.wisc.edu NEW IN MADISON: A VIRTUAL FARMERS' MARKET Whether you're new to Madison, seeking vegetarian recipes or looking for produce that's in season, there's a web site made for you. Just type http://www.madfarmmkt.org/ and you'll find all you need to know about that seasonal ritual, the Dane County Farmers' Market. You can take a tour, take a quiz, find a new recipe or find your favorite vendor. The Dane County Farmers' Market and the University of Wisconsin-Madison College of Agricultural and Life Sciences developed the site to teach people about buying food from local sources. Agricultural journalism professor Suzanne Pingree's research team found out what customers wanted to know. Students interviewed vendors and wrote the text, and graduate student Victoria Jagar developed the web site. John Hendrickson, an outreach specialist for the Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems, contributed much of the information about farming. For those who haven't been to the market, the web site presents a virtual tour. A general information section offers links to a calendar of events and a map of downtown. (Maps of the market itself weren't possible, as some vendors only sell on a temporary basis and others come in to take their places.) Click on seasonal produce to find facts about the latest fruits and vegetables with links to profiles of vendors and a "Test Your Vegetable I.Q." quiz. Click again and you'll find recipes from growers, local chefs and good cooks. Once you try a recipe, you can send in your feedback. Other links will take you to food preservation techniques. You can even click on "blanch" if you don't know what it means. Another link will take you directly to the University of Wisconsin-Cooperative Extension's home page. But the site isn't just a compendium of food tips. It also tries to persuade people to buy more than coffee and pastries. A "Making the Connection" quiz offers some tough questions about food costs, food processing and food distribution. For instance, do you know how far, on average, foods travel to get to your plate? Or how many people handle food before it gets to the supermarket? Local chefs know. Madison restaurants ranging from Bluephie's to the Blue Marlin find that the market offers fresh ingredients they can't get anywhere else Names of restaurants that frequent the farmers' market are just part of an extensive resource list. Best of all, like any other link, you don't have to go through the entire web site to find the resources. So once you've used the site to see what's new, you can come back to find out how to store the 15 spaghetti squash you just bought. Michelle Miller Pesticide Use and Risk Reduction Project Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems University of Wisconsin - Madison U.S. Mail: 146 Agriculture Hall 608.262.7135 Campus: 1535 Observatory Drive 608.262.5200 Madison, WI 53706 fax 265.3020 www.wisc.edu/cias/ mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 18:18:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00952 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22305 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:12:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22292 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKY001CGAVN2T@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:09:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:05:04 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Monsanto sale?? To: SANET-mg Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 Howdy, all-- Just got a holler from Darth Cheezer that his colleague's pager honked with news of the sale of Monsanto for $8 billion. You just never know where leads will come from. :^) Anybody know more than this? Is a sale planned/announced? Is Novartis the buyer? Last I heard was today, from Reuters--talk and analysis (I didn't see the WSJ today): Z U R I C H, Nov. 9 - Novartis's reported interest in life sciences rival Monsanto faces serious anti-trust problems given the companies' big agribusinesses, equity analysts said today. This could kill any deal unless the firms find a creative way to handle the problem, they said, but the report fuelled talk that Novartis is hunting for a takeover to prevent being shunted from center stage in a fast-consolidating drugs sector. Novartis said today it had no comment on a newspaper report that it was interested in buying all or part of U.S.-based Monsanto Co. The Wall Street Journal, in an article published today, said Monsanto had been holding talks about a sale of all or part of the company, and Novartis had emerged as a serious suitor. Concern for Overlap "Because Novartis and Monsanto have a rather big share in the agrochemicals market, we would likely see significant anti-trust problems if you would combine the two agribusinesses. That is my major concern," said Birgit Kulhoff at Lombard Odier. She estimated they had a combined 25 percent market share. Eric Bernhardt at Clariden Bank also saw cartel problems if Monsanto did not agree to split itself up into parts and sell just its G.D. Searle drugs business. But Michael Sjoestrom at Pictet & Cie thought the approach reported in the Journal made sense. A Good Fit "Novartis obviously knows the agribusiness pretty well because they are in it themselves, so they are a likely acquirer of both parts of Monsanto," he said. Novartis already seems likely to spin off its own agribusiness, which has been suffering amid a global downturn in the farm sector, and could combine this with Monsanto's agriculture division, Sjoestrom said. "There is apparently not that much overlap between the two businesses. There may be anti-trust issues, namely Bt corn in the U.S. market, maybe some issues on the research front, but other than that I think a solution could be found." He suggested Novartis, whose war chest has $12.93 billion in cash, could finance a cash bid for Monsanto and pay a premium of some 10 to 20 percent over the current market price. Novartis Talks About WLA-AHP Novartis while declining comment on the report provided a statement it had given a Swiss newspaper late last week for a story on the impact of Warner-Lambert's agreed $69 billion offer for American Home Products. Pfizer has since launched a hostile $74.6 billion bid for Warner-Lambert. Asked what Novartis was looking for in a potential takeover candidate, the company said: "A strong presence in the United States and in a quickly growing therapeutic area would be one of a number of desirable criteria." It said high prices for drugs companies were not exaggerated when compared to what telecommunications and Internet companies commanded, but stressed it was not under pressure to act because it had many promising new drugs in its development pipeline. Swiss analysts were less sure that Novartis could afford to stand idle if two big U.S. drugs groups join forces. "Then critical mass in the United States, at least in terms of marketing, will get bigger. In the medium term it still increases the pressure (on Novartis) a bit," Sjoestrom said. "Keep in mind that when Sandoz and Ciba merged (in 1996 to form Novartis), Novartis was the largest pharmaceuticals company. Now they are number seven, so it's moving quite fast." Pressure on Novartis Bernhardt agreed that Novartis could not relax. "Their product pipeline is not outstanding and they will not grow strongly next year, so they are under presssure to do something," he said. He suggested Novartis could aim for American Home Products. "I'm not saying it will happen, but it will be an interesting option," he said, noting AHP also had problems with its agribusiness, but had a good pipeline and would complement Novartis well geographically. Any such bid would have to be in cash, given U.S. investors' probable reluctance to accept relatively undervalued shares from a foreign company, he said. Copyright 1999 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. I saw nothing on AP's wire, on ABC, or CNN...and at this time of day the Internet is so damn slow in California with all the day traders watching the Dow move toward closing in NYC, that the pixels wheeze. I can't get into SF Gate...and have to run out for a meeting. Anybody got more facts? If true, this truly makes me sad, because I have a draft message to y'all from a couple months back predicting this. Crystal ball was working fine at the time. What I wrote, and never sent, was: >My bet? > >Tumble me in an industrial clothes dryer and call me spun-dry, but >it would not surprise me in the least if Monsanto, as a corporation, >ceased to exist by the middle of 2001. :^) Get ready for a major fight for holistic and herbal medicine; what we've seen so far is just the first skirmishes. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses. -Utah Philips To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 9 21:30:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02963 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02341 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:50:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02335 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17212 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.123] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:47:35 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:46:15 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5823.991109@acnet.net> To: Edna M Weigel CC: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) In-reply-To: <19991108.142354.3502.1.eweigel@juno.com> References: <19991108.142354.3502.1.eweigel@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 Hi Edna, Here's a short answer to your request. EMW> Can someone explain the requirements and implications of HACCP in EMW> 100 words or less? Regards, Edna The acronym HACCP is self explanatory: Hazard Analysis Critical Control Points. Your analyze the hazard, define the critical control points and establish a hazard control program based on monitoring those points. It is for controlling hazard (i.e. contamination) and not a quality assurance program in itself. (How's that for short - less than 50 words)! In the case of an organic farmer, it could help him or her prevent something happening that could hurt his or her chances for certification but as stated, has little to do with the quality of the product, except in terms of it's compliance with an establish zoofitosanitary norm, generally an obligatory one, related to public health issues. As an inspector, Bart recognizes the value of HACCP for reducing events that could compromise the certification of the product. It's a systematic approach, but there are others and in any case, a given grower may or may not need to implement such a system, depending on his or her customer base and the desires of those as a group. When all is said and done, once any minimum legal requirements that may exist have been satisfied, the only relationship that matters is the one that lies between the grower and the consumer (the beginning and the end of the food chain). Any additional intermediaries that may or may not exist, are either facilitating that relationship, or should be. Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 09:52:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10031 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18991 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:26:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18911 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from gwg2 ([128.253.226.175]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09240 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:24:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991110085454.009218a0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:19:42 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Gilbert Gillespie Subject: Re: HACCP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 Since I am involved in a SARE-funded project on small-scale food processing, I forwarded the recent SANET postings on HACCP to some of the major participants in the project. One of them with food processing expertise, Judy Anderson from the New York State Food Venture Center at Geneva, NY, responded with the following brief message about the topic. The Dr. Gravani she mentions is Robert Gravani, professor of Food Science at Cornell University. > >The HACCP approach lends itself reasonably well to risk reduction in > >relation to all of the non-microbial contaminants and pollutants you > >mentioned above. Strictly speaking, however, HACCP focuses on microbial > >contamination. > I couldn't quite follow who was writing what about HACCP, but the above statement stood out above all others in being misleading. HACCP is concerned with ALL hazards associated with foods. Chemical, Physical and Microbiological. It does not focus on microbial contamination if properly assessed and applied. True, microbial hazards are usually the most numerous and most dangerous, but every possible hazard should be addressed in a good HACCP plan. There are "decision trees" and flow charts that help the HACCP plan preparers to decide whether a possible point of contamination is likely to constitute a hazzard and should be addressed or ignored or somewhere in between. > Second, it is my understanding that the concept of HACCP was developed by Pillsbury in the late 1950's in response to NASA's need for absolutely safe meals for astronauts (food poisoning in a small capsule would be rather disasterous). It evolved separately from ISO9000, at least in the early years. Dr. Gravani could probably fill you in on any other details you might like to have. My own view is that, even if the need for strict implementation of HACCP procedures may be greater in large processing operations with global sourcing of inputs, the principles of HACCP should be applied to small-scale food processing (what could be worse for this sector of the industry than people getting sick or dying from its products). Whether the very SAME requirements or certain onerous (especially for a small firm) aspects of the bureaucratic red tape that I would agree would be important for large operations are necessary (or even desirable) for smaller operations, is something that needs to be looked at closely. Small-scale food processors are a highly diverse lot, with most producing high-quality and very safe food and some, like Bart Hall noted in an earlier posting, clearly should not be in business. Gil **************************************************************************** Gil Gillespie voice: 607-255-1675 Department of Rural Sociology & fax: 607-254-2896 Division of Nutritional Sciences e-mail: gwg2@cornell.edu 340 Warren Hall Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-7801 USA Many people say that "language by nature lies," but I've never agreed with that. Language is a tool. It can be used to clarify or to confuse, to build collaboration or to enhance control. Clarity, honesty, frankness, and integrity are gifts of the soul, and not all people choose to unwrap them. And some, alas, are trained from the cradle to use it to manipulate, rather than to witness. Those who use it to witness, these days, are often ridiculed (unscientific, impressionistic, emotional, undocumented, subjective), while master manipulators are held up as exemplars. --Michele Gale-Sinex, 09/20/1999 **************************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 09:54:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10049 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19579 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:27:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web606.mail.yahoo.com (web606.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.170]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19575 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:27:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991110142510.28604.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.8.215.69] by web606.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:25:10 PST Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: butterflies and genetically modified corn To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 This appears on the front page of today's business section of the Philadelphia Inquirer... I was wondering if anyone out there in SANET land knows if the EPA had to approve the release of bt Corn for sale. Since it produces its own pesticide, wouldn't the EPA regs have to be satisfied? Does anyone know if there was a Public Interest Document on bt corn prepared for EPA? kate Butterfly, corn link rethought A genetically modified form of the crop may not be as harmful to monarch larvae as a lab study indicated. By Andrea Knox INQUIRER STAFF WRITER Corn that has been genetically modified to kill a destructive insect may not be as harmful to the monarch butterfly as was feared. But it clearly poses some level of risk that needs to be better understood. That was the broad but inconclusive message from a scientific symposium last week near Chicago sponsored by Monsanto Co., DuPont Co., and other companies that have staked their future on the development of genetically engineered crops. Those companies scrambled to fund additional research after Cornell University entomologist John E. Losey reported in May that monarch larvae in laboratory studies ate less, grew more slowly and died more quickly after eating pollen from genetically altered corn. Overnight, the perceived threat to the photogenic orange-and-black butterfly became a rallying point for critics of genetically altered crops, who contend they cause unanticipated environmental damage. Losey cautioned at the time that results he obtained in the laboratory needed to be confirmed in field tests. One question was the extent to which monarchs in the wild would come into contact with toxic levels of corn pollen. Corn that is genetically modified has been given an extra gene that manufactures Bacillus thuringiensis, which kills corn borers. The toxin, which is harmless to humans, spreads through the plant and into its pollen. The pollen is often blown onto milkweed, the only plant eaten by monarch larvae. The studies presented at last week's symposium generally found that the toxic concentrations of pollen don't travel very far beyond the cornfields. Losey also presented findings - again from the laboratory and not from field tests - that butterflies prefer to lay their eggs and feed on milkweed beyond the edges of cornfields rather than in the fields. "You put all this information together and it's pretty clear that the worst-case scenarios [of butterfly kill-off] . . . are unlikely to occur," said Galen Dively, a University of Maryland entomologist who attended the conference. However, John Pleasants of Iowa State University found that one strain of genetically engineered corn produces a high level of the poison and was toxic to butterflies at every level tested. This strain of corn is said to account for only a small percentage of the genetically altered crop. The participants agreed that more studies need to be done, particularly on whether butterflies in the wild use cornfields, and the extent to which eating the pollen could cause harm without killing the butterflies right away. About 10 of the 20 papers at the symposium were funded with $100,000 provided by the Agricultural Biotechnology Stewardship Working Group, the industry consortium that also sponsored the symposium. While some of the scientists involved said they would prefer to see funding from other sources, they said it wasn't likely to be forthcoming. "If industry doesn't support this research, it will be a long time before it's done, because it's difficult to get money for research on a noneconomic insect," said Chip Taylor, director of Monarch Watch, an education, research and conservation program at the University of Kansas. The industry "wanted to do what we could, but we haven't gotten to the point of funding additional research," said Doyle Karr, a spokesman for Pioneer Hi-Bred International in Des Moines, Iowa. Pioneer, a member of the biotechnology working group, is owned by DuPont. Karr said the industry was encouraged by the finding that "the worst-case scenario isn't going to happen." But he agreed that "there is definitely more we want to know." Taylor estimated that genetically modified corn would kill 5 percent to 7 percent of all monarch butterflies at most. However, he said, it might also alter migration patterns so that monarchs would disappear from most of the United States. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 12:52:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14084 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25731 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:38:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (wvnvm.wvnet.edu [129.71.2.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA25724 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Kotcon.CAF.WVU.EDU [157.182.39.119] by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:37:45 EST Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19991110163706.01004fec@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jkotcon@wvu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:37:06 -0500 To: Kate Smith , sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: James Kotcon Subject: Re: butterflies and genetically modified corn Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 My understanding is that USDA-APHIS is the regulatory agency that oversees releases of genetically engineered crops. EPA is still "reviewing" its regulatory jurisdiction for plant varieties that express plant pest protection properties. If anyone has more complete info, I would appreciate learning of it. APHIS produces two documents, an "environmental assessment", and a "determination" that no significant impact will result from no longer regulating a particular crop variety. These are available on the web at: www.aphis.usda.gov/biotech/not_reg.html and since each variety is regulated separately, the number of such environmental assessments and determinations is fairly large. The E.A. for the earliest Bt Corn I found (Ciba-Geigy's "Event-176" corn, 1994) includes the following as relevant findings and conclusions. EnJoy! "5. Event 176 Corn exhibits no significant potential to either harm organisms beneficial to the agricultural ecosystem or to impair the ability of farmers to control nontarget insect pests. 6. Cultivation of Event 176 Corn should not reduce the ability to control insects in corn and other crops. Therefore, after a review of the available evidence, APHIS believes that Event 176 Corn will be just as safe to grow as traditionally-bred lepidopteran insect resistant corn varieties not subject to regulation under 7 CFR Part 340. APHIS concludes that there will be no significant impact on the human environment if Event 176 Corn were no longer considered a regulated article under regulations at 7 CFR Part 340." James Kotcon West Virginia University Division of Plant and Soil Sciences At 06:25 AM 11/10/99 -0800, you wrote: >This appears on the front page of today's business section of >the Philadelphia Inquirer... > >I was wondering if anyone out there in SANET land knows if the >EPA had to approve the release of bt Corn for sale. Since it >produces its own pesticide, wouldn't the EPA regs have to be >satisfied? Does anyone know if there was a Public Interest >Document on bt corn prepared for EPA? > >kate > > >Butterfly, corn link rethought >A genetically modified form of the crop may not be as harmful to >monarch larvae as a lab study indicated. > >By Andrea Knox > >INQUIRER STAFF WRITER >Corn that has been genetically modified to kill a destructive >insect may not be as harmful to the monarch butterfly as was >feared. But it clearly poses some level of risk that needs to be >better understood. > >That was the broad but inconclusive message from a scientific >symposium last week near Chicago sponsored by Monsanto Co., >DuPont Co., and other companies that have staked their future on >the development of genetically engineered crops. > >Those companies scrambled to fund additional research after >Cornell University entomologist John E. Losey reported in May >that monarch larvae in laboratory studies ate less, grew more >slowly and died more quickly after eating pollen from >genetically altered corn. > >Overnight, the perceived threat to the photogenic >orange-and-black butterfly became a rallying point for critics >of genetically altered crops, who contend they cause >unanticipated environmental damage. > >Losey cautioned at the time that results he obtained in the >laboratory needed to be confirmed in field tests. One question >was the extent to which monarchs in the wild would come into >contact with toxic levels of corn pollen. > >Corn that is genetically modified has been given an extra gene >that manufactures Bacillus thuringiensis, which kills corn >borers. The toxin, which is harmless to humans, spreads through >the plant and into its pollen. The pollen is often blown onto >milkweed, the only plant eaten by monarch larvae. > >The studies presented at last week's symposium generally found >that the toxic concentrations of pollen don't travel very far >beyond the cornfields. Losey also presented findings - again >from the laboratory and not from field tests - that butterflies >prefer to lay their eggs and feed on milkweed beyond the edges >of cornfields rather than in the fields. > >"You put all this information together and it's pretty clear >that the worst-case scenarios [of butterfly kill-off] . . . are >unlikely to occur," said Galen Dively, a University of Maryland >entomologist who attended the conference. > >However, John Pleasants of Iowa State University found that one >strain of genetically engineered corn produces a high level of >the poison and was toxic to butterflies at every level tested. >This strain of corn is said to account for only a small >percentage of the genetically altered crop. > >The participants agreed that more studies need to be done, >particularly on whether butterflies in the wild use cornfields, >and the extent to which eating the pollen could cause harm >without killing the butterflies right away. > >About 10 of the 20 papers at the symposium were funded with >$100,000 provided by the Agricultural Biotechnology Stewardship >Working Group, the industry consortium that also sponsored the >symposium. > >While some of the scientists involved said they would prefer to >see funding from other sources, they said it wasn't likely to be >forthcoming. > >"If industry doesn't support this research, it will be a long >time before it's done, because it's difficult to get money for >research on a noneconomic insect," said Chip Taylor, director of >Monarch Watch, an education, research and conservation program >at the University of Kansas. > >The industry "wanted to do what we could, but we haven't gotten >to the point of funding additional research," said Doyle Karr, a >spokesman for Pioneer Hi-Bred International in Des Moines, Iowa. >Pioneer, a member of the biotechnology working group, is owned >by DuPont. > >Karr said the industry was encouraged by the finding that "the >worst-case scenario isn't going to happen." But he agreed that >"there is definitely more we want to know." > >Taylor estimated that genetically modified corn would kill 5 >percent to 7 percent of all monarch butterflies at most. > >However, he said, it might also alter migration patterns so that >monarchs would disappear from most of the United States. > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 15:25:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17026 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12484 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:25:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12477 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [144.92.244.229] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id NAA83378 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:23:22 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991110132251.00e26d84@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:22:51 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Michelle M. Miller" Subject: re:monsanto sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 WSJ 11/9 article was titled: Monsanto Considers Full or Partial Sale; Novartis Is a Suitor, Pact Isn't Imminent >From another article, Monsanto stock price gained 5/8 to 44 3/8 Nov. 11 based on the merger speculation. As of 1:50 today, stock price is at 46 1/8, so maybe the merger is still on the table. The article makes it sound as if Novartis is only interested in the drug portion of Monsanto's holdings. Wonder who might take on the pesticides? One guy I spoke with yesterday thought Dow might be interested. Michelle Miller Pesticide Use and Risk Reduction Project Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems University of Wisconsin - Madison U.S. Mail: 146 Agriculture Hall 608.262.7135 Campus: 1535 Observatory Drive 608.262.5200 Madison, WI 53706 fax 265.3020 www.wisc.edu/cias/ mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 16:37:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18337 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01809 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:45:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from crow.a001.sprintmail.com (crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01804 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP332.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.110]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23767 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:42:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3829D8B6.9185D5D1@sprintmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:42:30 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Monsanto sale Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 Hmmmmm. It's starting to make sense. I read recently that Novartis is thinking about selling it's agribusiness division. Rumors are that they're worried about declining profits and lawsuits from GMOs. Estimates are that they could get $15 billion or more for this division. And it makes sense, given this, that they would only be interested in Monsanto's pharmaceuticals. That would give them a lot of cash to spend. And MM says Dow may be interested in their insecticides? This may be the continuing feeding frenzy of the sharks that swim in the agribusiness waters. Ain't corporate "consolidation" a great thing? Alex McGregor To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From dmhinds@acnet.net Wed Nov 10 16:42:57 1999 Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18448 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.8] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:41:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:40:48 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4653.991110@acnet.net> To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Marc.Safley@usda.gov Subject: Re[2]: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 (long, but I believe, substantial) Hi Larry, Tuesday, November 09, 1999, 12:16:55 AM, you wrote: LFLJ> I thought this new effort by government to become involved in the LFLJ> organic foods industry was to set NATIONAL standards to benefit LFLJ> the entire country and the entire world. According to OFPA, State Governments (and only State Governments - which are "colleagues" and have specific constitutional powers) can take minimum standards beyond those OFPA itself sets. This is one of the major problems many certifying organizations who take pride in their own standards have with OFPA, which sets limits on how "organic" something can be. Under OFPA only definitions for "USDA Organic" and "State Government Organic" (which must be more stringent, not less), can exist. Anything else is simply not organic, and the issue of whether non governmental certifying bodies can even so much as to refer to their own stricter standards in a way remotely related to the word organic, has not yet been resolved, I believe. (This is one of the issues that has prevented OFPA from taking effect, and forms part of the Organic Rule, soon to undergo (or is already undergoing) another round of discussion). However - the principle problem with OFPA is that the possibility of *not* certifying an organic product is not provided for, if that product is going to be called organic. The small farm exemption may provide some remedy (I'll have to reread OFPA here) but as Sal has emphasized, the $5000 limit is simply unrealistic (unless the organic farmers expect to benefit from this exemption are actually backyard home gardeners, not people with small yet full time organic farms who sell to primarily local markets, in which a bond of trust exists between grower and consumer). Unfortunately, the whole approach smacks of industrialized agriculture (and OFPA could be viewed in that context, as the industrialization of organic agriculture and markets), with the resulting lack of diversity, a usurpation of the bond between grower and consumer (or buyer), the exaltation of regimentation and the homogenization of standards (with the resulting mediocrity that brings). But then, this has sadly become a dominant trend in America during the 20th century. Standards aren't bad, but incongruent and poorly implemented ones are, and they benefit no one. They just squeeze the life out of what used to be there, which finds another home anyway. However - I *don't* intend doesn't imply that the meaning (and level of consumer recognition) now inherent in the word organic - a meaning that *wasn't* always present, but rather was created through the collective effort of thousands of farmers, gardeners and consumers that are *not* well served by obligatory USDA or *any* third party certification (not unless called for by the buyers / consumers themselves), should be "given up" without a fight. As previously stated, other issues (i.e., the degeneration of organic standards in general through the inclusion of substances and practices clearly *not* consistent with the organic spirit and tradition), have distracted from the true basic issue: OFPA, which mandates compulsory certification, lends itself to potential abuses and infringes on a number of constitutional rights,including the freedom of speech (no falsehood exists when a word has met the definition traditionally associated with it, nor has an intent to defraud a occurred, and the concept of establishing new meanings by decree, particularly when those meanings radically depart from established tradition, simply lacks a firm legal precedent). The right to earn a gainful livelihood is also infringed on by OFPA's mandating compulsory certification, failing to contemplate a number of legitimate scenarios under which certifying an organically grown product is inappropriate and causes unnecessarily elevated expenses. OFPA's mandating compulsory certification also widens the existing gap between organic and conventionally grown products in terms of market competitiveness, presupposes a guilt on the part of organic farmers that conventional farmers are not subjected to, and economically penalizes ecologically sane farming practices while contaminating ones are being subsidized by the same agency responsible for overseeing OFPA. Having farmed organically since 1968 (San Marcos, CA - I believe I met fellow sanet contributor Bargyla at that time) and recognized what I still believe to be fatal flaws in OFPA as now written since the early nineties (not long after it was published - although I unfortunately did *not* participate in the process culminating in the creation of it); and having since then dedicated considerable time and effort to realizing a thorough examination of the act, arriving at an accurate evaluation of it's strengths and weaknesses (both alone and together with other interested and competent parties well versed in the intricacies of the issues involved), the only sensible solution I and many others find available is: Once a wide consensus has been reached within the organic community regarding those materials and practices that are or aren't "organic" and the exceptions (if any) to same, OFPA must be modified to the effect that certification *not* be compulsory. This would address the dangers that a less than authentic legal definition of organic now poses to the organic food industry as we now know it, as well as the abuses to small farmers whose clients already know and trust their products, both of whom then won't have to incur the additional and unnecessary expense involved. Since the issue by nature lies within the context of the buyer / seller relationship and can be best be viewed from that perspective, why don't we let USDA Certified Organic stand and compete on it's own merit, as an option to be taken advantage of when appropriate, given the degree of credence that the law's implementation demonstrates (and this is something that can *not* be presumed. Nor need it be). Once a consistent, minimum national standard for organic foods has been defined and a consensus reached within the organic community regarding that definition, and the compulsory certification requirement is removed from OFPA itself, the only further measures needed other than the *option* of certifying organically produced, handled and sometimes processed food items via a USDA supervised certification program; include: Defining the penalties to be applied to any all proven instances in which foods sold as organic (certified or not, USDA certified or not) do not in fact comply with the definition that OFPA and the Organic Rule specify as organic. (Once again, reaching a consensus with the national organic community is a prerequisite here). Defining the procedure for establishing whether or not the product does or doesn't those standards, which obviously could include a variety of "proofs" such as expert testimony, eye witnesses, audit trails and lab reports, among others. Other points that require definition are: *Who* can institute the "Organic" or "Not Organic" definition procedure, and how this would be carried out. We are describing what could basically called an "Organic Court", which also would have to be established. There must be a higher court of appeals to hear controversial cases not resolved by lower, regional or state instances. Local and or state governments could be invited to participate, under the same guidelines. OFPA must also define the procedure for determining who will pay the costs involved in arriving at a determination, which ideally would depend on the outcome of same. That is, when products offered to the public as "Organic" have been proven to be "Not Organic", the cost would logically borne by the party committing the fraud. By the same token, a determination that a product sold as "Organic" *is* indeed "Organic" (by virtue of it's nature as determined by the procedure instituted for that purpose, rather than through a prior certification process - USDA supervised or otherwise), in those instances the costs involved would be paid by the party making the claim to the contrary (the party that instituted the process, that called for the determination). The determination proceeding could be called for by the buyer, a competitor, the grower or distributor itself or any interested third party. Whether or not a reasonable doubt must exist as a basis for initiating the process and what would constitute this are options that could be considered Class action claims could also be instituted, as well as class action defense actions. This might be appropriate when a third party certifier is involved. The certifying organism could offer certification verification insurance as part of it's service, so that the costs of a given defense would be born by those certified by that organism, as a whole. (While the contract used by the certifier could contain a clause that terminates the relation if fraud has been proven, the certifier shold be held responsible for his certification process, rather than relinquish same). The same Tribunes could also be considered competent to hear claims made against conventional growers that may not be complying with current EPA, FDA or USDA legislation. Obviously, the participation of these institutions could figure in the procedure in a fundamental way, where an adequate degree of competence and preparation have been established on their part. This also points the way toward legislating mandating further studies which focus on health and environmental issues related to food, as well as the promotion and development of non-contaminating technologies for implementing sustainable agricultural production systems and of course, the establishment of economic indicators that take environmental costs into consideration, when calculating the true costs of a food production system, so that the proper compensatory mechanisms (i.e., incentives and disincentives) can applied by legislators when funding is relegated for programs that meet environmental / health criteria, rather than the reverse. Legislation requiring that these factors be given priority would also be appropriate, with the regulatory framework described here. I believe there is no other method capable of assuring a given product is or isn't in fact organic with any real degree of certainty. Given the way OFPA reads at present, it's certain abuses *will* occur on four fronts: 1).- Products not truly organic will be certified as such, despite the procedures OFPA stipulates 2).- Products that *are* truly organic in practice and substance will either *not* be able to be legally sold as organic, and 3).- The cost of organic products will be elevated significantly under circumstances that often will not require this. 4).- As things stand, no or insufficient recourse has been provided for appealing false determinations made by USDA supervised certifying organisms. Once again, a non compulsory certification framework would rectify this error, now capable of generating multiple injustices. Lastly, the legal basis for prohibiting states from mandating compulsory certification should also be investigated. Douglas Hinds P.S. With reference to Andy Clarks excellent suggestions regarding questions appropriate to the issue of OFPA's creation, perhaps Larry would be kind enough to share with us his own first hand experience (mentioned previously) after being asked by an agency which had received a federal grant for this purpose, to organize at least one of the events that had been programmed as a preliminary to OFPA; and what that led to, in terms of the later role played by these same OFPA "organizers". (He will have to decide whether or not names should mentioned. My own feeling is that the principle involved is the more important issue, rather than who these people happened to be. The point being, abuses did occur within the process of consulting the public as a preliminary to OFPA). From dmhinds@acnet.net Wed Nov 10 17:14:05 1999 Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18448 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.8] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:41:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:40:48 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4653.991110@acnet.net> To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Marc.Safley@usda.gov Subject: Re[2]: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 (long, but I believe, substantial) Hi Larry, Tuesday, November 09, 1999, 12:16:55 AM, you wrote: LFLJ> I thought this new effort by government to become involved in the LFLJ> organic foods industry was to set NATIONAL standards to benefit LFLJ> the entire country and the entire world. According to OFPA, State Governments (and only State Governments - which are "colleagues" and have specific constitutional powers) can take minimum standards beyond those OFPA itself sets. This is one of the major problems many certifying organizations who take pride in their own standards have with OFPA, which sets limits on how "organic" something can be. Under OFPA only definitions for "USDA Organic" and "State Government Organic" (which must be more stringent, not less), can exist. Anything else is simply not organic, and the issue of whether non governmental certifying bodies can even so much as to refer to their own stricter standards in a way remotely related to the word organic, has not yet been resolved, I believe. (This is one of the issues that has prevented OFPA from taking effect, and forms part of the Organic Rule, soon to undergo (or is already undergoing) another round of discussion). However - the principle problem with OFPA is that the possibility of *not* certifying an organic product is not provided for, if that product is going to be called organic. The small farm exemption may provide some remedy (I'll have to reread OFPA here) but as Sal has emphasized, the $5000 limit is simply unrealistic (unless the organic farmers expect to benefit from this exemption are actually backyard home gardeners, not people with small yet full time organic farms who sell to primarily local markets, in which a bond of trust exists between grower and consumer). Unfortunately, the whole approach smacks of industrialized agriculture (and OFPA could be viewed in that context, as the industrialization of organic agriculture and markets), with the resulting lack of diversity, a usurpation of the bond between grower and consumer (or buyer), the exaltation of regimentation and the homogenization of standards (with the resulting mediocrity that brings). But then, this has sadly become a dominant trend in America during the 20th century. Standards aren't bad, but incongruent and poorly implemented ones are, and they benefit no one. They just squeeze the life out of what used to be there, which finds another home anyway. However - I *don't* intend doesn't imply that the meaning (and level of consumer recognition) now inherent in the word organic - a meaning that *wasn't* always present, but rather was created through the collective effort of thousands of farmers, gardeners and consumers that are *not* well served by obligatory USDA or *any* third party certification (not unless called for by the buyers / consumers themselves), should be "given up" without a fight. As previously stated, other issues (i.e., the degeneration of organic standards in general through the inclusion of substances and practices clearly *not* consistent with the organic spirit and tradition), have distracted from the true basic issue: OFPA, which mandates compulsory certification, lends itself to potential abuses and infringes on a number of constitutional rights,including the freedom of speech (no falsehood exists when a word has met the definition traditionally associated with it, nor has an intent to defraud a occurred, and the concept of establishing new meanings by decree, particularly when those meanings radically depart from established tradition, simply lacks a firm legal precedent). The right to earn a gainful livelihood is also infringed on by OFPA's mandating compulsory certification, failing to contemplate a number of legitimate scenarios under which certifying an organically grown product is inappropriate and causes unnecessarily elevated expenses. OFPA's mandating compulsory certification also widens the existing gap between organic and conventionally grown products in terms of market competitiveness, presupposes a guilt on the part of organic farmers that conventional farmers are not subjected to, and economically penalizes ecologically sane farming practices while contaminating ones are being subsidized by the same agency responsible for overseeing OFPA. Having farmed organically since 1968 (San Marcos, CA - I believe I met fellow sanet contributor Bargyla at that time) and recognized what I still believe to be fatal flaws in OFPA as now written since the early nineties (not long after it was published - although I unfortunately did *not* participate in the process culminating in the creation of it); and having since then dedicated considerable time and effort to realizing a thorough examination of the act, arriving at an accurate evaluation of it's strengths and weaknesses (both alone and together with other interested and competent parties well versed in the intricacies of the issues involved), the only sensible solution I and many others find available is: Once a wide consensus has been reached within the organic community regarding those materials and practices that are or aren't "organic" and the exceptions (if any) to same, OFPA must be modified to the effect that certification *not* be compulsory. This would address the dangers that a less than authentic legal definition of organic now poses to the organic food industry as we now know it, as well as the abuses to small farmers whose clients already know and trust their products, both of whom then won't have to incur the additional and unnecessary expense involved. Since the issue by nature lies within the context of the buyer / seller relationship and can be best be viewed from that perspective, why don't we let USDA Certified Organic stand and compete on it's own merit, as an option to be taken advantage of when appropriate, given the degree of credence that the law's implementation demonstrates (and this is something that can *not* be presumed. Nor need it be). Once a consistent, minimum national standard for organic foods has been defined and a consensus reached within the organic community regarding that definition, and the compulsory certification requirement is removed from OFPA itself, the only further measures needed other than the *option* of certifying organically produced, handled and sometimes processed food items via a USDA supervised certification program; include: Defining the penalties to be applied to any all proven instances in which foods sold as organic (certified or not, USDA certified or not) do not in fact comply with the definition that OFPA and the Organic Rule specify as organic. (Once again, reaching a consensus with the national organic community is a prerequisite here). Defining the procedure for establishing whether or not the product does or doesn't those standards, which obviously could include a variety of "proofs" such as expert testimony, eye witnesses, audit trails and lab reports, among others. Other points that require definition are: *Who* can institute the "Organic" or "Not Organic" definition procedure, and how this would be carried out. We are describing what could basically called an "Organic Court", which also would have to be established. There must be a higher court of appeals to hear controversial cases not resolved by lower, regional or state instances. Local and or state governments could be invited to participate, under the same guidelines. OFPA must also define the procedure for determining who will pay the costs involved in arriving at a determination, which ideally would depend on the outcome of same. That is, when products offered to the public as "Organic" have been proven to be "Not Organic", the cost would logically borne by the party committing the fraud. By the same token, a determination that a product sold as "Organic" *is* indeed "Organic" (by virtue of it's nature as determined by the procedure instituted for that purpose, rather than through a prior certification process - USDA supervised or otherwise), in those instances the costs involved would be paid by the party making the claim to the contrary (the party that instituted the process, that called for the determination). The determination proceeding could be called for by the buyer, a competitor, the grower or distributor itself or any interested third party. Whether or not a reasonable doubt must exist as a basis for initiating the process and what would constitute this are options that could be considered Class action claims could also be instituted, as well as class action defense actions. This might be appropriate when a third party certifier is involved. The certifying organism could offer certification verification insurance as part of it's service, so that the costs of a given defense would be born by those certified by that organism, as a whole. (While the contract used by the certifier could contain a clause that terminates the relation if fraud has been proven, the certifier shold be held responsible for his certification process, rather than relinquish same). The same Tribunes could also be considered competent to hear claims made against conventional growers that may not be complying with current EPA, FDA or USDA legislation. Obviously, the participation of these institutions could figure in the procedure in a fundamental way, where an adequate degree of competence and preparation have been established on their part. This also points the way toward legislating mandating further studies which focus on health and environmental issues related to food, as well as the promotion and development of non-contaminating technologies for implementing sustainable agricultural production systems and of course, the establishment of economic indicators that take environmental costs into consideration, when calculating the true costs of a food production system, so that the proper compensatory mechanisms (i.e., incentives and disincentives) can applied by legislators when funding is relegated for programs that meet environmental / health criteria, rather than the reverse. Legislation requiring that these factors be given priority would also be appropriate, with the regulatory framework described here. I believe there is no other method capable of assuring a given product is or isn't in fact organic with any real degree of certainty. Given the way OFPA reads at present, it's certain abuses *will* occur on four fronts: 1).- Products not truly organic will be certified as such, despite the procedures OFPA stipulates 2).- Products that *are* truly organic in practice and substance will either *not* be able to be legally sold as organic, and 3).- The cost of organic products will be elevated significantly under circumstances that often will not require this. 4).- As things stand, no or insufficient recourse has been provided for appealing false determinations made by USDA supervised certifying organisms. Once again, a non compulsory certification framework would rectify this error, now capable of generating multiple injustices. Lastly, the legal basis for prohibiting states from mandating compulsory certification should also be investigated. Douglas Hinds P.S. With reference to Andy Clarks excellent suggestions regarding questions appropriate to the issue of OFPA's creation, perhaps Larry would be kind enough to share with us his own first hand experience (mentioned previously) after being asked by an agency which had received a federal grant for this purpose, to organize at least one of the events that had been programmed as a preliminary to OFPA; and what that led to, in terms of the later role played by these same OFPA "organizers". (He will have to decide whether or not names should mentioned. My own feeling is that the principle involved is the more important issue, rather than who these people happened to be. The point being, abuses did occur within the process of consulting the public as a preliminary to OFPA). From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 17:29:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19760 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18870 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:44:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18863 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.8] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:41:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:40:48 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4653.991110@acnet.net> To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Marc.Safley@usda.gov Subject: Re[2]: Certification and other regulation (was USDA...) In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 (long, but I believe, substantial) Hi Larry, Tuesday, November 09, 1999, 12:16:55 AM, you wrote: LFLJ> I thought this new effort by government to become involved in the LFLJ> organic foods industry was to set NATIONAL standards to benefit LFLJ> the entire country and the entire world. According to OFPA, State Governments (and only State Governments - which are "colleagues" and have specific constitutional powers) can take minimum standards beyond those OFPA itself sets. This is one of the major problems many certifying organizations who take pride in their own standards have with OFPA, which sets limits on how "organic" something can be. Under OFPA only definitions for "USDA Organic" and "State Government Organic" (which must be more stringent, not less), can exist. Anything else is simply not organic, and the issue of whether non governmental certifying bodies can even so much as to refer to their own stricter standards in a way remotely related to the word organic, has not yet been resolved, I believe. (This is one of the issues that has prevented OFPA from taking effect, and forms part of the Organic Rule, soon to undergo (or is already undergoing) another round of discussion). However - the principle problem with OFPA is that the possibility of *not* certifying an organic product is not provided for, if that product is going to be called organic. The small farm exemption may provide some remedy (I'll have to reread OFPA here) but as Sal has emphasized, the $5000 limit is simply unrealistic (unless the organic farmers expect to benefit from this exemption are actually backyard home gardeners, not people with small yet full time organic farms who sell to primarily local markets, in which a bond of trust exists between grower and consumer). Unfortunately, the whole approach smacks of industrialized agriculture (and OFPA could be viewed in that context, as the industrialization of organic agriculture and markets), with the resulting lack of diversity, a usurpation of the bond between grower and consumer (or buyer), the exaltation of regimentation and the homogenization of standards (with the resulting mediocrity that brings). But then, this has sadly become a dominant trend in America during the 20th century. Standards aren't bad, but incongruent and poorly implemented ones are, and they benefit no one. They just squeeze the life out of what used to be there, which finds another home anyway. However - I *don't* intend doesn't imply that the meaning (and level of consumer recognition) now inherent in the word organic - a meaning that *wasn't* always present, but rather was created through the collective effort of thousands of farmers, gardeners and consumers that are *not* well served by obligatory USDA or *any* third party certification (not unless called for by the buyers / consumers themselves), should be "given up" without a fight. As previously stated, other issues (i.e., the degeneration of organic standards in general through the inclusion of substances and practices clearly *not* consistent with the organic spirit and tradition), have distracted from the true basic issue: OFPA, which mandates compulsory certification, lends itself to potential abuses and infringes on a number of constitutional rights,including the freedom of speech (no falsehood exists when a word has met the definition traditionally associated with it, nor has an intent to defraud a occurred, and the concept of establishing new meanings by decree, particularly when those meanings radically depart from established tradition, simply lacks a firm legal precedent). The right to earn a gainful livelihood is also infringed on by OFPA's mandating compulsory certification, failing to contemplate a number of legitimate scenarios under which certifying an organically grown product is inappropriate and causes unnecessarily elevated expenses. OFPA's mandating compulsory certification also widens the existing gap between organic and conventionally grown products in terms of market competitiveness, presupposes a guilt on the part of organic farmers that conventional farmers are not subjected to, and economically penalizes ecologically sane farming practices while contaminating ones are being subsidized by the same agency responsible for overseeing OFPA. Having farmed organically since 1968 (San Marcos, CA - I believe I met fellow sanet contributor Bargyla at that time) and recognized what I still believe to be fatal flaws in OFPA as now written since the early nineties (not long after it was published - although I unfortunately did *not* participate in the process culminating in the creation of it); and having since then dedicated considerable time and effort to realizing a thorough examination of the act, arriving at an accurate evaluation of it's strengths and weaknesses (both alone and together with other interested and competent parties well versed in the intricacies of the issues involved), the only sensible solution I and many others find available is: Once a wide consensus has been reached within the organic community regarding those materials and practices that are or aren't "organic" and the exceptions (if any) to same, OFPA must be modified to the effect that certification *not* be compulsory. This would address the dangers that a less than authentic legal definition of organic now poses to the organic food industry as we now know it, as well as the abuses to small farmers whose clients already know and trust their products, both of whom then won't have to incur the additional and unnecessary expense involved. Since the issue by nature lies within the context of the buyer / seller relationship and can be best be viewed from that perspective, why don't we let USDA Certified Organic stand and compete on it's own merit, as an option to be taken advantage of when appropriate, given the degree of credence that the law's implementation demonstrates (and this is something that can *not* be presumed. Nor need it be). Once a consistent, minimum national standard for organic foods has been defined and a consensus reached within the organic community regarding that definition, and the compulsory certification requirement is removed from OFPA itself, the only further measures needed other than the *option* of certifying organically produced, handled and sometimes processed food items via a USDA supervised certification program; include: Defining the penalties to be applied to any all proven instances in which foods sold as organic (certified or not, USDA certified or not) do not in fact comply with the definition that OFPA and the Organic Rule specify as organic. (Once again, reaching a consensus with the national organic community is a prerequisite here). Defining the procedure for establishing whether or not the product does or doesn't those standards, which obviously could include a variety of "proofs" such as expert testimony, eye witnesses, audit trails and lab reports, among others. Other points that require definition are: *Who* can institute the "Organic" or "Not Organic" definition procedure, and how this would be carried out. We are describing what could basically called an "Organic Court", which also would have to be established. There must be a higher court of appeals to hear controversial cases not resolved by lower, regional or state instances. Local and or state governments could be invited to participate, under the same guidelines. OFPA must also define the procedure for determining who will pay the costs involved in arriving at a determination, which ideally would depend on the outcome of same. That is, when products offered to the public as "Organic" have been proven to be "Not Organic", the cost would logically borne by the party committing the fraud. By the same token, a determination that a product sold as "Organic" *is* indeed "Organic" (by virtue of it's nature as determined by the procedure instituted for that purpose, rather than through a prior certification process - USDA supervised or otherwise), in those instances the costs involved would be paid by the party making the claim to the contrary (the party that instituted the process, that called for the determination). The determination proceeding could be called for by the buyer, a competitor, the grower or distributor itself or any interested third party. Whether or not a reasonable doubt must exist as a basis for initiating the process and what would constitute this are options that could be considered Class action claims could also be instituted, as well as class action defense actions. This might be appropriate when a third party certifier is involved. The certifying organism could offer certification verification insurance as part of it's service, so that the costs of a given defense would be born by those certified by that organism, as a whole. (While the contract used by the certifier could contain a clause that terminates the relation if fraud has been proven, the certifier shold be held responsible for his certification process, rather than relinquish same). The same Tribunes could also be considered competent to hear claims made against conventional growers that may not be complying with current EPA, FDA or USDA legislation. Obviously, the participation of these institutions could figure in the procedure in a fundamental way, where an adequate degree of competence and preparation have been established on their part. This also points the way toward legislating mandating further studies which focus on health and environmental issues related to food, as well as the promotion and development of non-contaminating technologies for implementing sustainable agricultural production systems and of course, the establishment of economic indicators that take environmental costs into consideration, when calculating the true costs of a food production system, so that the proper compensatory mechanisms (i.e., incentives and disincentives) can applied by legislators when funding is relegated for programs that meet environmental / health criteria, rather than the reverse. Legislation requiring that these factors be given priority would also be appropriate, with the regulatory framework described here. I believe there is no other method capable of assuring a given product is or isn't in fact organic with any real degree of certainty. Given the way OFPA reads at present, it's certain abuses *will* occur on four fronts: 1).- Products not truly organic will be certified as such, despite the procedures OFPA stipulates 2).- Products that *are* truly organic in practice and substance will either *not* be able to be legally sold as organic, and 3).- The cost of organic products will be elevated significantly under circumstances that often will not require this. 4).- As things stand, no or insufficient recourse has been provided for appealing false determinations made by USDA supervised certifying organisms. Once again, a non compulsory certification framework would rectify this error, now capable of generating multiple injustices. Lastly, the legal basis for prohibiting states from mandating compulsory certification should also be investigated. Douglas Hinds P.S. With reference to Andy Clarks excellent suggestions regarding questions appropriate to the issue of OFPA's creation, perhaps Larry would be kind enough to share with us his own first hand experience (mentioned previously) after being asked by an agency which had received a federal grant for this purpose, to organize at least one of the events that had been programmed as a preliminary to OFPA; and what that led to, in terms of the later role played by these same OFPA "organizers". (He will have to decide whether or not names should mentioned. My own feeling is that the principle involved is the more important issue, rather than who these people happened to be. The point being, abuses did occur within the process of consulting the public as a preliminary to OFPA). To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 17:32:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19794 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21142 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:01:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21135 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:00:55 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.74]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:58:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991110154522.00793ce0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:45:22 -0600 To: Subject: butterflies and genetically modified corn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 Kate, this is the same conference Michelle Miller warned us about. The industry sponsored front group released an all clear conference news report for BT corn before the conference participants had presented their findings. Below is the relevant sections of the heads up from Michelle. The test results are not in on this question yet - see below. Mike Miller "From: Becky Goldburg@EDF on 11/04/99 03:59 PM Subject: Industry manipulation of research results on Bt corn and monarchs I am writing to provide a first hand perspective on articles stating that "Bt corn poses little risk to monarchs" which have appeared in the Chicago Tribune, LA Times, St Louis Post Dispatch, and other papers in the past two days. Some of these articles are below. I attended Tuesday's (Nov 2) meeting in Rosemount, Illinois, on Bt corn and monarchs that is described in these articles. With the exception of an article in today's NYTimes (also below), these articles all stated that the meeting would reach a conclusion that Bt corn poses little risk to monarchs -- even though most of the articles were written before the meeting was even held!! Luckily, Carol Yoon from the NY Times attended the meeting. During the afternoon, she stood up and said that she had just talked to her editors and that they had received a press release from industry stating that the meeting would conclude that Bt corn presented little risk to monarchs. (See BIO's press release, below.) Carol asked if participants agreed with this conclusion. The answer was a clear "No" from a number of researchers. To be frank, I am appalled by industry's manipulation of a scientific meeting at which a number of researchers -- many of which have only analyzed some of their data and thus have only preliminary results to report -- were supposed to discuss their work in a careful and deliberate manner. Please feel free to circulate this email message. Becky Goldburg Environmental Defense Fund" >This appears on the front page of today's business section of >the Philadelphia Inquirer... > >I was wondering if anyone out there in SANET land knows if the >EPA had to approve the release of bt Corn for sale. Since it >produces its own pesticide, wouldn't the EPA regs have to be >satisfied? Does anyone know if there was a Public Interest >Document on bt corn prepared for EPA? > >kate > > >Butterfly, corn link rethought >A genetically modified form of the crop may not be as harmful to >monarch larvae as a lab study indicated. > >By Andrea Knox > >INQUIRER STAFF WRITER >Corn that has been genetically modified to kill a destructive >insect may not be as harmful to the monarch butterfly as was >feared. But it clearly poses some level of risk that needs to be >better understood. > >That was the broad but inconclusive message from a scientific >symposium last week near Chicago sponsored by Monsanto Co., >DuPont Co., and other companies that have staked their future on >the development of genetically engineered crops. > >Those companies scrambled to fund additional research after >Cornell University entomologist John E. Losey reported in May >that monarch larvae in laboratory studies ate less, grew more >slowly and died more quickly after eating pollen from >genetically altered corn. > >Overnight, the perceived threat to the photogenic >orange-and-black butterfly became a rallying point for critics >of genetically altered crops, who contend they cause >unanticipated environmental damage. > >Losey cautioned at the time that results he obtained in the >laboratory needed to be confirmed in field tests. One question >was the extent to which monarchs in the wild would come into >contact with toxic levels of corn pollen. > >Corn that is genetically modified has been given an extra gene >that manufactures Bacillus thuringiensis, which kills corn >borers. The toxin, which is harmless to humans, spreads through >the plant and into its pollen. The pollen is often blown onto >milkweed, the only plant eaten by monarch larvae. > >The studies presented at last week's symposium generally found >that the toxic concentrations of pollen don't travel very far >beyond the cornfields. Losey also presented findings - again >from the laboratory and not from field tests - that butterflies >prefer to lay their eggs and feed on milkweed beyond the edges >of cornfields rather than in the fields. > >"You put all this information together and it's pretty clear >that the worst-case scenarios [of butterfly kill-off] . . . are >unlikely to occur," said Galen Dively, a University of Maryland >entomologist who attended the conference. > >However, John Pleasants of Iowa State University found that one >strain of genetically engineered corn produces a high level of >the poison and was toxic to butterflies at every level tested. >This strain of corn is said to account for only a small >percentage of the genetically altered crop. > >The participants agreed that more studies need to be done, >particularly on whether butterflies in the wild use cornfields, >and the extent to which eating the pollen could cause harm >without killing the butterflies right away. > >About 10 of the 20 papers at the symposium were funded with >$100,000 provided by the Agricultural Biotechnology Stewardship >Working Group, the industry consortium that also sponsored the >symposium. > >While some of the scientists involved said they would prefer to >see funding from other sources, they said it wasn't likely to be >forthcoming. > >"If industry doesn't support this research, it will be a long >time before it's done, because it's difficult to get money for >research on a noneconomic insect," said Chip Taylor, director of >Monarch Watch, an education, research and conservation program >at the University of Kansas. > >The industry "wanted to do what we could, but we haven't gotten >to the point of funding additional research," said Doyle Karr, a >spokesman for Pioneer Hi-Bred International in Des Moines, Iowa. >Pioneer, a member of the biotechnology working group, is owned >by DuPont. > >Karr said the industry was encouraged by the finding that "the >worst-case scenario isn't going to happen." But he agreed that >"there is definitely more we want to know." > >Taylor estimated that genetically modified corn would kill 5 >percent to 7 percent of all monarch butterflies at most. > >However, he said, it might also alter migration patterns so that >monarchs would disappear from most of the United States. > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 17:43:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20040 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22357 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:07:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22351 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.8] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:04:21 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:03:30 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <11669.991110@acnet.net> To: Gilbert Gillespie CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: HACCP In-reply-To: <4.1.19991110085454.009218a0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> References: <4.1.19991110085454.009218a0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 Reading this post is seems clear that while HACCP is appropriate for food processors and meat packers (the latter is where I had run on to it, when consulting for the city govt and district health dept on zoonosis, 10 years ago), it's relevance to farms in general is less than obvious. It's a system, and while conscious people can use a check list, someone who's really attentive will pick things up because he's looking at them and has taken to heart the prionciples, procedures and determinants - they've become ingrained. On the other hand, unconscious people are perfectly capable of disarming even the best control system. DH Hello Gilbert, Wednesday, November 10, 1999, 8:19:42 AM, you wrote: GG> Since I am involved in a SARE-funded project on small-scale food processing, I GG> forwarded the recent SANET postings on HACCP to some of the major participants GG> in the project. One of them with food processing expertise, Judy Anderson from GG> the New York State Food Venture Center at Geneva, NY, responded with the GG> following brief message about the topic. The Dr. Gravani she mentions is Robert GG> Gravani, professor of Food Science at Cornell University. >> >>The HACCP approach lends itself reasonably well to risk reduction in >> >relation to all of the non-microbial contaminants and pollutants you >> >mentioned above. Strictly speaking, however, HACCP focuses on microbial >> >contamination. >> I couldn't quite follow who was writing what about HACCP, but the above GG> statement stood out above all others in being misleading. HACCP is concerned GG> with ALL hazards associated with foods. Chemical, Physical and Microbiological. GG> It does not focus on microbial contamination if properly assessed and applied. GG> True, microbial hazards are usually the most numerous and most dangerous, but GG> every possible hazard should be addressed in a good HACCP plan. There are GG> "decision trees" and flow charts that help the HACCP plan preparers to decide GG> whether a possible point of contamination is likely to constitute a hazzard and GG> should be addressed or ignored or somewhere in between. >> Second, it is my understanding that the concept of HACCP was developed by GG> Pillsbury in the late 1950's in response to NASA's need for absolutely safe GG> meals for astronauts (food poisoning in a small capsule would be rather GG> disasterous). It evolved separately from ISO9000, at least in the early years. GG> Dr. Gravani could probably fill you in on any other details you might like to GG> have. GG> My own view is that, even if the need for strict implementation of HACCP GG> procedures may be greater in large processing operations with global sourcing GG> of inputs, the principles of HACCP should be applied to small-scale food GG> processing (what could be worse for this sector of the industry than people GG> getting sick or dying from its products). Whether the very SAME requirements or GG> certain onerous (especially for a small firm) aspects of the bureaucratic red GG> tape that I would agree would be important for large operations are necessary GG> (or even desirable) for smaller operations, is something that needs to be GG> looked at closely. Small-scale food processors are a highly diverse lot, with GG> most producing high-quality and very safe food and some, like Bart Hall noted GG> in an earlier posting, clearly should not be in business. GG> Gil GG> **************************************************************************** GG> Gil Gillespie voice: 607-255-1675 GG> Department of Rural Sociology & fax: 607-254-2896 GG> Division of Nutritional Sciences e-mail: gwg2@cornell.edu GG> 340 Warren Hall GG> Cornell University GG> Ithaca, NY 14853-7801 GG> USA GG> Many people say that "language by nature lies," but I've never agreed GG> with that. Language is a tool. It can be used to clarify or to confuse, GG> to build collaboration or to enhance control. Clarity, honesty, GG> frankness, and integrity are gifts of the soul, and not all people GG> choose to unwrap them. And some, alas, are trained from the cradle GG> to use it to manipulate, rather than to witness. Those who use it to GG> witness, these days, are often ridiculed (unscientific, impressionistic, GG> emotional, undocumented, subjective), while master manipulators are GG> held up as exemplars. --Michele Gale-Sinex, 09/20/1999 GG> **************************************************************************** GG> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command GG> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command GG> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". GG> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command GG> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". GG> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: GG> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 17:54:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20257 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04003 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:30:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from dialup0.macomb.com (IDENT:root@dialup0.macomb.com [199.120.118.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03994 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from macomb.com (208.34.39.144.outfitters.com [208.34.39.144]) by dialup0.macomb.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25436; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:27:12 -0600 Message-ID: <3829F1C8.20F546F8@macomb.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:29:28 -0600 From: Kathy Jeffries Reply-To: jeffries@macomb.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Burghgrave , Debbie Ortman , DH , Don Johnson , Donna , Fred Kohler , Jane Kuck , Karen Hudson , Margo McKendree , Martha Klems , Pam Hanson , Robert_Northcutt , SANET , Sara Wood , Steve Axley Subject: [Fwd: Innovative Ag Conference Sponsored by IIRA Dec. 2] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------16854BA70C86E832DB33CBF7" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------16854BA70C86E832DB33CBF7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------16854BA70C86E832DB33CBF7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from snmp.wiu.edu (snmp.wiu.edu [143.43.117.22]) by dialup0.macomb.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18367 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:17:59 -0600 Received: from ccmail.wiu.edu (ccmail.wiu.edu [143.43.192.12]) by snmp.wiu.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA02597 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:17:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from ccMail by ccmail.wiu.edu (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00254CEB; Wed, 10 Nov 99 16:20:51 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:15:55 -0600 Message-ID: <00254CEB.004186@ccmail.wiu.edu> From: Paula_Clark@ccmail.wiu.edu (Paula Clark) Subject: Innovative Ag Conference Sponsored by IIRA Dec. 2 To: jeffries@macomb.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 9, 1999 INNOVATIVE AG CONFERENCE SPONSORED BY IIRA DEC. 2 MACOMB, IL -- With low commodity prices and livestock prices, Midwestern farmers are facing a continuing financial crisis. Many producers are looking for new approaches to better market their products, while reducing costs. These and other ideas will be the focus of the "Innovative Approaches to Agriculture" conference Thursday, Dec. 2. The conference, sponsored by the Illinois Institute for Rural Affairs (IIRA) at Western Illinois University, will be held from 8 a.m.-4:30 p.m. at the Holiday Inn Conference Center in Collinsville. "For farm producers to survive, they cannot rely on a 'business as usual' approach," said conference organizer Mary Holmes of the IIRA. "They must take innovative approaches to raising and marketing agricultural products, including becoming involved in value-added initiatives." Holmes added that this is an important meeting for farmers to attend as they will be able to learn about of the new programs currently being accomplished by other Illinois farm producers. State and federal policymakers will also be available to answer questions. Topics during the morning sessions will include "Improving the Outlook for Production Agriculture," "New Opportunities for Agriculturally-Based Economic Development in the 21st Century" and "Agricultural Economic Development." The luncheon keynote speaker will be Andrew Watkins of the National Center for Agricultural Utilization Research in Peoria. The afternoon session consists of a panel discussion with members from both the private and public agriculture sector. U.S. Senator Richard Durbin and Joe Hampton, director of the Illinois Department of Agriculture, will serve as panelists. To register, send a check, payable to the IIRA, for $15 to Mary Holmes, IIRA, 1 University Circle, Macomb IL 61455-1390. The fee includes all handouts and lunch. Registration deadline is Wednesday, Nov. 24. For more information, contact Holmes at 800/526-9943 or e-mail Mary_Holmes@wiu.edu. ###drs --------------16854BA70C86E832DB33CBF7-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 10 20:27:26 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22521 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02159 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:00:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02149 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (ncs-54.nbn.com [199.4.66.54]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with SMTP id QAA04748; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:37:59 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: Subject: Sustainable Ag marketing and p/r Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:40:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <11669.991110@acnet.net> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 A Beyond Organic Newsflash!! In our continuing efforts to bring the "sustainable ag" message into the mainstream limelight, we are expanding our services to include Conference Marketing and Public Relations. The 1999 California Farm Conference: Cultivating the Farm-City Connection (which ended yesterday) was a tremendous success, with a Sold out Farm-City Celebration Dinner (435 people) and hit our attendance target of approximately 500-600 conference registrants (the final count is due next week). Press coverage was extensive, including the regional NPR affiliate, extensive coverage in regional mainstream publications, radio and television - addressing not only the conference, but the themes, issues and people involved (including News, Business, Food and Agriculture). Event Marketing services include: * Strategic marketing and public relations planning * List development and drop coordination * Complete publicity campaigns, tailored to meet specific outreach goals * Copy editing to help zero in on key messages * Partnership programs to draw in wide-spread community support * On-site press management We draw on a growing network of organizational, media and personal contacts to help bring in the people and to get the word out. Our knowledge of timely issues allows us to develop stories and angles which the media want and to direct interviews to the most appropriate spokespeople. Reference and professional recommendations available, along with our media kit, detailed list of all our services, and media highlights. Many thanks for your interest and best wishes, Michael Straus Clients: * Straus Family Creamery (1994-1998) www.strausmilk.com * California Farm Conference (1999) www.caff.org/farmconference.html * * Coyuchi, Inc. www.coyuchiorganic.com * Wind Harvest Company www.windharvest.com * Bioneers Conference (1999) www.bioneers.org * LifeDirectory.com www.lifedirectory.com ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 10 18:47:41 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21390 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26591 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta003.topica.com (outmta.topica.com [206.132.75.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26569 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:48 -0500 (EST) To: panups@igc.topica.com From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Resource Pointer #225 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:14:39 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.590970041-212058698-942275679@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Resource Pointer #225 November 4, 1999 For copies of the following resources, please contact the appropriate publishers or organizations directly. *Ecological Policy and Politics in Developing Countries: Economic Growth, Democracy, and Environment, 1998* Uday Desai, ed. Provides analysis of ecological problems, policies and politics in ten countries. Focuses on international context of domestic environmental policies and explores institutional forces shaping each country's environmental policies. Chapter= s cover Czech Republic, China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Nigeria, Taiwan, Thailand, Slovakia and Venezuela. 327 pp. US$27.95. Contact CUP Services, 750 Cascadilla Street, P.O. Box 6525, Ithaca, NY 14851; phone (607) 277-2211; fax (607) 277-6292 *Uprooting Injustice/Desarraigar a la Injusticia, 1999* Sandy Smith-Nonini. Reports on working conditions for North Carolina farmworkers. Describes substandard housing conditions, lack of sanitary facilities and workers' exposure to pesticides. Provides overview of Mt. Olive Pickle Company production process and describes boycott organized by Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC). English and Spanish. 32 pp. US$6. Contact Institute for Southern Studies, P.O. Box 531, Durham, NC 27702; phone (919) 419-8311; fax (919) 419-8315; email info@i4south.org *Plaguicidas en M=E9xico 1991=AD1998: Carpeta de Prensa, 1999* Patricia D=EDaz Romo et al. Collection of articles on pesticides published 1991=AD1998 in newspapers throughout Mexico. Includes special sections on pesticide use an= d problems in Sinaloa state; exposure of Huichol indigenous population; ANAVERSA disaster; and use of herbicides to combat water lilies in Chapala lake. 346 pp. US$10. Contact Instituto Tecnol=F3gico y de Estudios Superiores de Occidente (ITESO), Oficina de Extensi=F3n Universitaria, Perif=E9rico Sur 8585, C.P. 45090, Tlaquepaque, Jalisco, Mexico; phone (01-3) 6693485; email publicaciones@iteso.mx *Usos y Alternativas al Bromuro de Metilo en M=E9xico, 1999* Fernando Bejaran= o Gonz=E1lez. Provides overview of Montreal Protocol, international efforts to eliminate methyl bromide, and use of methyl bromide in Mexico. Describes methyl bromide distribution systems in Mexico, role of transnational suppliers and alternatives to methyl bromide. Includes tables showing national consumption of methyl bromide, 1992-98; hectares treated with fumigants; alternative means of controlling soil pathogens; and more. Spanish. 20 pp. US$10. Contact Red de Acci=F3n sobre Plaguicidas y Alternativas en M=E9xico (RAPAM), Amado Nervo 22, Colonia San Juanito, Texcoco, Estado de M=E9xico, C.P. 56121, Mexico; phone/fax (595) 47744; email rapam@mpsnet.com.mx *Compendium of Strawberry Diseases, Second Edition, 1998* 98 pp. US$37. Provides comprehensive information for plant pathologists and others in diagnosis of strawberry diseases. Chapters cover noninfectious disorders caused by genetic and environmental factors; infectious diseases; and arthropod and mollusk pests. Contact APS Press, 3340 Pilot Knob Road, St. Paul, MN 55121-2097; phone (800) 328-7560 or (651) 454-7250; email aps@scisoc.org; website http://www.scisoc.org We encourage those interested in having resources listed in the PANUPS Resource Pointer to send review copies of publications, videos or other resources to our office. =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ Receiving this post in your inbox? You can read it on the Web at Topica. Just register and go to "Your Lists" page. It's that easy. http://www.topica.com/t/6 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 10 23:24:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24767 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21868 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21825 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (butte_tmp1m57.in-tch.com [216.166.190.235]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA16081 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:48:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <382A3E3C.5A24@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:55:40 -0700 From: Jeff Reply-To: jeff@in-tch.com Organization: Babylon Gardens X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Farm policy and sustainable ag Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 Does any one know of any recent books/articles that deal with farm policy(federal) and its impact on sustainable Ag? At a recent farm meeting, I was discussing the last farm bill and what the expectations are about the eventual phase-out of commodity support programs. I had originally hoped that the phase-out of these commodity program would induce diversification of crops away from those that are supported. I hoped that this would provide an opportunity for sustainable ag interest among conventional farms. My grain farmer friends here in Montana simply don't believe that these support programs will phase-out and therefore expect that dramatic cropping pattern change will not occur. What does anybody out there think? Finally, when is the new farm bill being considered and does this phase-out sentiment still exist in Congress? Again, if anybody knows of a reference to a good recent book on this generally subject. I would appreciate a reference. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 07:42:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28808 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29689 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:09:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29681 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23468 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:07:11 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04675 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:09:48 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 11 Nov 99 13:01:57 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 11 Nov 99 13:01:39 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:01:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Biology and Fertility of Soils Volume 30 Issue 1/2 Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <150F20855A6@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 in case s.o. is interested: (part of the content of the journal above) J. A. Pascual, C. Garcia, T. Hernandez: Lasting microbiological and biochemical effects of the addition of municipal solid waste to an arid soil Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 1-6 K. Y. Chan, D. P. Heenan: Microbial-induced soil aggregate stability under different crop rotations Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 29-32 M. Goedde, R. Conrad: Immediate and adaptational temperature effects on nitric oxide production and nitrous oxide release from nitrification and denitrification in two soils Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 33-40 M. Simek, D. W. Hopkins: Regulation of potential denitrification by soil pH in long-term fertilized arable soils Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 41-47 T. J. van der Weerden, R. R. Sherlock, P. H. Williams, K. C. Cameron: Nitrous oxide emissions and methane oxidation by soil following cultivation of two different leguminous pastures Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 52-60 B. C. Liang, A. F. Mackenzie, E. G. Gregorich: Changes in 15N abundance and amounts of biologically active soil nitrogen Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 69-74 A. Saviozzi, A. Biasci, R. Riffaldi, R. Levi-Minzi: Long-term effects of farmyard manure and sewage sludge on some soil biochemical characteristics Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 100-106 M. C. Leiros, C. Trasar-Cepeda, F. Garcia-Fernandez, F. Gil-Sotres: Defining the validity of a biochemical index of soil quality Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 140-146 M. Johansson, B. Stenberg, L. Torstensson: Microbiological and chemical changes in two arable soils after long-term sludge amendments Biol Fertil Soils 30 (1999) 1/2, 160-167 --------------- klaus wiegand +-[Quote of the day, powered by k. wiegand]----+ | | | Intelligence tests: hocus pocus used by | | psychologists to prove that they are | | brilliant and their clients stupid. The | | general acceptance of these test suggests | | that this claim may not be without | | foundation. | | Thomas Szasz | +----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 08:28:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29394 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA27071 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:58:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26974 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24218 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:56:09 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05112 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:58:16 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 11 Nov 99 13:50:24 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 11 Nov 99 13:49:36 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:49:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Farmers Losing Seed Varieties Worldwide Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <151BEA44E7D@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id HAA26998 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 http://www.foxnews.com/js_index.sml?content=/scitech/091899/crops.sm Headline: Farmers Losing Seed Varieties Worldwide 2.33 p.m. ET (1833 GMT) September 18, 1999 By David Briscoe WASHINGTON With thousands of plant species nearing extinction, the world's farmers are losing valuable crop alternatives. In the United States, more than 80 percent of seed varieties sold a century ago no longer are available, according to a report released Saturday. Even crops that may not be producing or seem undesirable could one day help fight against human disease, develop more-resistant varieties or respond to future conditions, said Worldwatch Institute researcher John Tuxill, the report's author. The report says more plant species are threatened in the United States than any other countryù 4,669, or 29 percent of all varieties. Next is Australia with 2,245 species threatened, followed by South Africa with 2,215. Worldwide, more than 30,000 plant species are threatened. The report echoes long-held concerns about dwindling plants in nature and says a decline in cultivated varieties is a serious loss for agriculture. While genetic engineering in agriculture is on the rise, with farmers around the globe planting three times as much land in "transgenic" crops this year as last, some natural varieties have disappeared forever, Tuxill said. "Although we have achieved unprecedented skill in moving genes around, only nature can manufacture them," he said in the report, "Nature's Cornucopia: Our Stake in Plant Diversity." ... excerpt: It is not just obscure plant types that are disappearing, the report says in describing problems around the globe. Varieties of common crops also are on the decline: Less than 20 percent of vegetable seed varieties listed in a 1904 U.S. national inventory are available commercially today. China has lost nearly 90 percent of its traditional wheat varieties since World War II. Mexican farmers are raising only 20 percent of the corn varieties cultivated in the 1930s. Heavy commercial demand in various regions is depleting varieties of wild plants used for medicinal and other purposes. Many governments and organizations are addressing the problem, Tuxill said. One grassroots approach is the Seed Bank Exchange of Decorah, Iowa, which has 12,000 farmer and gardener members around the United States who share seeds. Since the nonprofit association published its first catalog of seeds available commercially nationwide in 1987, it has send 1,059 disappear, said Aaron Whealy, who runs part of the operation. But, with effort by its members to share heirloom varieties and private collections, in the same period it added 1,889 varieties, he said. Newly cultivated or recultivated seeds available next year will be the Mexico Midget Cherry Tomato, the Hollybrook Lucious Cantaloupe and Pikes Peak Squash. The bank maintains 20,000 vegetable seed varieties and actually grows 2,000 of those each year for seed production and sale. That compares to an estimated 5,000 varieties available through But just saving seeds is not enough, said Tuxill. Some plants, including potatoes and bananas, have to be continuously propagated to survive or require that tissue samples be preserved. More innovative efforts by governments, scientists, farmers and others are needed to manage and protect all plant species, he said. klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 10:10:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01168 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03282 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:47:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03250 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.81] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:44:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:43:27 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2363.991111@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: "Marc Safley" , Marc.Safley@usda.gov Subject: Re[2]: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) X-Sender: Douglas Hinds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Sorry about the duplication (Short and I hope, sweet) Hello Roberto, Thursday, November 11, 1999, 2:17:25 PM, you wrote: RV> From the descriptions, it sounds to me as if HACCP, like the RV> California organic law, is really about small organic farm RV> elimination, wrapped in technical mumbo-jumbo... RV> Roberto Quite a while back, a long thread ensued regarding the role and significance of science in the development and implementation of biological processes. It seems as though the composition of this list has changed to a degree, and perhaps the proportion of those that farm or are involved with farming out of love or personal conviction has diminished in proportion to others, that depending on your point of view, could be classified to a greater or lesser degree as: Professionals, academics, consultants, mercenaries, industry (or governmental) representatives, researchers - these are just a few classification methods that come to mind. The point is this: Science itself is a discipline, a method that classifies phenomena in a consistent and logical manner. But logic itself at some point (at it's base), depends on assumptions - and that is faith, and if you will (*I* certainly will), purpose, intentions. The Philosophy of Science (like the philosophy of anything else), depends on metaphysics. Medicine, which is certainly a classic science (when exercised properly), postulates that it's FIRST principle is "Do No Harm" (the Hippocratic Oath). That is, no doctor is a good doctor (and by corollary, no scientist is a good scientist) unless his heart is in the right place, first and foremost. While this may not be *enough*, it *is* a prerequisite. It is difficult for science to classify the meaning of the words "heart" and "right" in this context, but the importance of their meaning precedes science itself and forms an indispensable ingredient, that's basic to the quality of the science performed. HACCP has little relevance to an organic farm except to the degree that it can be used to further the inherent goals of organic farming, organic farmers and the consumers of organic products. It is a systems approach that as stated earlier, is true to its name, and not much more. (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point, used principally in meat packing and food processing operations). Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 10:10:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01172 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01216 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:42:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01206 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id IAA17626; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:40:12 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma016442; Thu, 11 Nov 99 08:39:23 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:39:23 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFF6@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Roberto Verzola'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:39:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 Roberto, > From the descriptions, it sounds to me as if HACCP, like the > California organic law, is really about small organic farm > elimination, wrapped in technical mumbo-jumbo... It sounds to me like HACCP is mainly commonsense sanitation. This is important for human health and safety. Farmers who can't or won't do this, should produce something other than fruits and vegetables. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 11 08:27:32 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29378 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03303 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:04:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03299 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id UAA06250; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:41:25 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA04931; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:29:30 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911111329.VAA04931@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 11 Nov 99 20:17:25 Subject: Re: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) To: fresherb@nrg.com.au Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 >While Bluestem has given a pretty good explanation about HACCP, I don't >accept the suggestion that it is only about microbial contamination or >that it ignores chemical contamination from whatever source. In fact as >From the descriptions, it sounds to me as if HACCP, like the California organic law, is really about small organic farm elimination, wrapped in technical mumbo-jumbo... Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 12:29:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04064 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA23174 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:08:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from supermail.globaldialog.com (root@pop.globaldialog.com [156.46.122.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23096 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (wtn63ha1.gdinet.com [156.46.27.64]) by supermail.globaldialog.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06793 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:06:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:06:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911111606.KAA06793@supermail.globaldialog.com> X-Sender: prairiedf@pop.globaldialog.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: prairiedf@globaldialog.com (Greg David) Subject: Jeffeson County (Wisconsin) Supports PDR program Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 It's official, the Jefferson County Board voted yesterday to invest $20,000 in a PDR program to be administrated by the Jefferson County Land Trust (JCLT). While this is not a huge amount of money, the precedent it sets is. The money earmarked to be used for the writing of matching grants by JCLT, puts the County on record as supporting the public wish (as denoted in the County's 2020 Land Use Survey) of protecting farmland in Jefferson County. The County Board voted 20 to 8 to fund JCLT's efforts to bring more money into Jefferson County for the purchase of conservation easements. Dissenters stated that Jefferson County already has enough land protected and that there is no precedent for non-oversighted moneys being awarded to a private organization. The overwhelming majority of the Board disagreed, citing the Economic Development Corporation's yearly stipend as precedent. This is something myself and a group of very dedicated group of citizens have worked very hard for 4 or 5 years to make a reality. It is heartening to see the County government support our efforts. Many thanks to all who helped 'make it so'. Greg David Chairman Jefferson County Land Trust For more information contact me via the web, or at 902-261-4292. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 13:16:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04876 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14337 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:32:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net (IDENT:root@mailgate.wizvax.net [199.181.141.25]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14260 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wizvax.net (ts2p27.wizvax.net [204.97.162.92]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA07827 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:33:10 -0500 Message-ID: <382B0DA6.EA3B251E@wizvax.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:40:38 -0600 From: "Sarah l. Johnston" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Conference Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 NORTHEAST ORGANIC FARMING ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK 18th Annual Conference PLANTING SEEDS FOR THE FUTURE: TAKING CHARGE OF OUR SEED SUPPLY Skills, ideas, and connections for creating a regional seed supply January 29 and 30, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY Every gardener and farmer can become part of rejuvenating seed production in the Northeast, for the Northeast. Whether you have a 10 ft. square tomato patch, a backyard garden that feeds the family, a small or large commercial farm or just wish you could do one of these things, there is something for you at the conference. Attendees will have the opportunity to learn how to go about seed saving and related seed production techniques. Seed preservation groups and seed companies will discuss what they need in the way of competence and quality from local seed growers. This conference will inspire, educate and connect all levels of growers to seed saving and production where they live. At prime time for garden planning, the two-day conference will be held January 29 and 30 at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, NY. There will be 30 workshops over two days (5 concurrent sessions) a keynote address, a Saturday evening debate, vendors and exhibitors. The conference is being sponsored by the Northeast Organic Farming Association of New York. In the last thirty years, we have lost hundreds of cultivated vegetable varieties. The loss may not be noticeable to the consumer at the grocery store but to farmers and gardeners, the losses reduce our ability to grow excellent vegetables in the Northeast. The reason for raising our own seed supply is simple and is directly related to the fascinating nature of plants. Plants adapt to their environments in ways that the most sophisticated plant geneticist doesn’t understand. When we build on a plant’s ability to adapt to our soil and climate, we get a crop that’s more and more suited to conditions here in the Northeast. Anyone can learn the skills of seed production and simple seed breeding. This conference will get you started. Contact our conference coordinator at 1-315-824-2864 for a complete conference brochure. Or look up the conference information on our website at To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 14:43:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06973 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07400 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:58:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07282 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014EA536@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:55:47 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Nov 99 13:56:02 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Nov 99 13:55:44 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:55:44 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: niether tyranny of the majority nor of the special interests X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <10084E0D6DF2@agecon.uga.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 Bart wrote: > No quality is so deeply lacking in American current affairs than > true *leadership.* Government by public opinion poll and focus > group --- brought to the fore by the current administration --- is > not leadership of any sort. Rather, it is *followership.* The > dithering and flip flops on everything from agriculture to defence > to taxation policy merely reflect the innate problems of government > by followership. To embed the system of followership in the American > way of government would only insure an institutionalisation of the > lack of direction we see from both Congress and the Executive. > I very much agree with the above. After bringing up the topic of campaign reform a few weeks ago, and after making the point that it is the only way for a more direct democracy to take place, I have been thinking about this and come to an opinion that might be more in line with Bart's reasoning. I don't think that the extreme influence of special interests should be outsted from politics just so that the tyranny of the majority can reign, rather, so that leaders can be free to really LEAD with their consciences. I agree with Bart that leadership does not happen when "leaders" have to constantly take the pulse of either the fickle fashions of the majority but nor do I think they will be able to lead if they have to constantly check the opionions of their special interest benefactors. I still think that campaign finance reform is the only way to give leadership a chance. (And I think sustainable ag only has a political chance in world of leadership.) Anita Anita Graf Market Development of National OrganicProducts University of Georgia donate free food at http://thehungersite.com/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 15:16:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07459 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00131 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:38:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00011 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014EB0F5@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:36:03 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Nov 99 14:36:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Nov 99 14:35:55 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:35:55 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: what's wrong with eating commercial chicken? In-reply-to: <199911102310.SAA19879@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1008F98907ED@agecon.uga.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 Hi Everybody, A friend of mine came to dinner at my house the other day and we served free-range chicken, and now he wants to see some "references" as to why this is better than Factory McChicken found at the store. He's a budding ecologist here in the Ag. Econ. dept., but he's very uninformed about these things. I wrote to him some long e-mails touching on all the points I could think of (water contamination, animal health and welfare issues, human health issues, the politics and economics of vertical integration/mergers, concentration of animal wastes, etc.), but he would like some more authoritative references than just my rantings! Could somebody out there help me with this? How about some references or solid agruments about why conventional agro-chem and concentrated-livestock ag may not be the only way to "feed the world"? I did forward to him Ann Clarke's letter on pasture beef. I know there's some more great stuff in the archives, so if you could remind me of these too (like who wrote them more or less when) that would be great. Thanks so much! Anita Anita Graf Market Development of National Organic Products University of Georgia click on http://thehungersite.com/ to donate free food To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 16:19:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08740 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04653 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:36:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-t.missouri.edu [128.206.2.27]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04504 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from missouri.edu ([128.206.61.172]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA1912666 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:33:44 -0600 Message-ID: <382B27B2.F05FAE4B@missouri.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:31:47 -0600 From: Mary Hendrickson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: what's wrong with eating commercial chicken? References: <1008F98907ED@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 Anita: What's wrong with eating commerical chicken? References for your budding social scientists: * Check out the entire issue of Monthly Review July-August 1998 v50 because it's the best explanation of what industrialized agriculture does to farmers, communities and consumers both domestically and internationally. Some other resources: Heffernan, William D. 1989. "Confidence and courage in the next 50 years." Rural-Sociology, v. 54 (2) p. 149-168. Covers sociology of agriculture issues, in particular problems faced by contract poultry growers. Heffernan, William D. 1984. "Constraints in the U.S. Poultry Industry." Research in Rural Sociology & Development, vol. 1, 237-260. Kloppenburg, Jack, Jr., John Hendrickson and G.W. Stevenson. 1996. “Coming into the Foodshed.” Agriculture and Human Values, 13(3):33-42. DeLind, Laura. 1993. “Market Niches, ‘Cul De Sacs’ and Social Context: Alternative Systems of Food Production.” Culture and Agriculture 97:7-12. Esteva, Gustavo. 1994 “Re-embedding Food in Agriculture.” Culture and Agriculture, 48:2-13. Finally, Philip McMichael (Cornell) gave a wonderful address at the Agriculture, Food and Human Values meeting in Toronto last June. I'm not sure where it's available, but it is absolutely wonderful. It's entitled "The Power of Food." Mary -- Mary Hendrickson, Ph.D. Network Coordinator Food Circles Networking Project University of Missouri Outreach and Extension Department of Rural Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 Tele: 573-882-7463 Fax: 573-882-1473 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 16:32:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09189 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16716 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:55:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16710 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CMP012 (216-164-200-134.s388.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.200.134]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02935 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:53:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501bf2c86$f90d4720$cd640a0a@CMP012> From: "Jackie Ricotta" To: Subject: Organic Farming Class Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:54:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2C5D.0E6146A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2C5D.0E6146A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to find out if any university offers a course on "Organic = Farming", and if it would be possible to get a copy of the syllabus and = any other pertinent information.=20 Or, if anyone has any resources, or suggestions for what should be = covered in a horticulturally oriented "Organic Farming" course, please = let me know. Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2C5D.0E6146A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to find out if any = university offers=20 a course on "Organic Farming", and if it would be possible to = get a=20 copy of the syllabus and any other pertinent information.
 
Or, if anyone has any resources, or = suggestions=20 for what should be covered in a horticulturally oriented "Organic=20 Farming" course, please let me know. = Thanks.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2C5D.0E6146A0-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 18:54:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00866 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16164 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:24:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16159 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-9-18.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.114]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA07089; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:24:17 -0500 Message-ID: <000801bf2c9e$031f48a0$725f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" , Subject: Re: what's wrong with eating commercial chicken? Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:39:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 The Union of Concerned Scietists have an excellent peice on antibiotic use in livestock that would be an excellent starting point on why we shouldn't be taking the risks of concentrated livestock in our affluent society. I think it is titled Prescription for Trouble. Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp Free Range pig, chicken, beef, and rabbit producer -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: what's wrong with eating commercial chicken? Hi Everybody, A friend of mine came to dinner at my house the other day and we served free-range chicken, and now he wants to see some "references" as to why this is better than Factory McChicken found at the store. He's a budding ecologist here in the Ag. Econ. dept., but he's very uninformed about these things. I wrote to him some long e-mails touching on all the points I could think of (water contamination, animal health and welfare issues, human health issues, the politics and economics of vertical integration/mergers, concentration of animal wastes, etc.), but he would like some more authoritative references than just my rantings! Could somebody out there help me with this? How about some references or solid agruments about why conventional agro-chem and concentrated-livestock ag may not be the only way to "feed the world"? I did forward to him Ann Clarke's letter on pasture beef. I know there's some more great stuff in the archives, so if you could remind me of these too (like who wrote them more or less when) that would be great. Thanks so much! Anita Anita Graf Market Development of National Organic Products University of Georgia click on http://thehungersite.com/ to donate free food To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 19:35:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02085 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08164 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08160 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01028; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07382; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:58:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Jackie Ricotta cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Organic Farming Class In-Reply-To: <001501bf2c86$f90d4720$cd640a0a@CMP012> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Jackie Ricotta wrote: > I am trying to find out if any university offers a course on "Organic > Farming", and if it would be possible to get a copy of the syllabus > and any other pertinent information. 1) Evergreen College in Washing state (4 year, formal organic farming curriculum) 2) Sustainable Farming Curriculum at Central Carolina Community College in Pittsboro NC (1 year, I think + assorted electives) > Or, if anyone has any resources, or suggestions for what should be > covered in a horticulturally oriented "Organic Farming" course, please > let me know. Thanks. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 19:47:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02265 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21859 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:24:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21809 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15991 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA05129; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm5-15.nidlink.com [216.18.141.22]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA13918; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:22:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911120022.QAA13918@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Monarch Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on Monarchs and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky Goldburg of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer their views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois extension page, go to -- http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and related developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, thus far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also post it or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would like posted, please contact me by private email. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 21:43:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03459 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06191 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from goldencat.middlebury.edu (goldencat.middlebury.edu [140.233.2.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06180 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.middlebury.edu (panther.middlebury.edu [140.233.2.210]) by goldencat.middlebury.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA93032 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:20:18 -0500 Received: from cougar.middlebury.edu (cougar.middlebury.edu [140.233.2.205]) by panther.middlebury.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08370 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:20:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (mreeves@localhost) by cougar.middlebury.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22929 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:20:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: cougar.middlebury.edu: mreeves owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:20:24 -0500 (EST) From: Meredith R Reeves 00 X-Sender: mreeves@cougar.middlebury.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: SustAg and liberalArts In-Reply-To: <199911112310.SAA06130@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 Does anyone have any strong (or otherwise) opinions on sustainable agriculture as part of a liberal arts education. My senior environmental studies seminar is proposing that sustainable ag be included in the env studies curriculm, and needs convincing evidence. Any sources, books, comments, etc would be appreciated. I think that it is a really interesting point of debate. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 21:56:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03674 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17157 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:40:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17118 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (wvnvm.wvnet.edu [129.71.2.4]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA17745 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Kotcon.CAF.WVU.EDU [157.182.39.119] by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:38:48 EST Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19991112023808.011e5928@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jkotcon@wvu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:38:08 -0500 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu From: James Kotcon Subject: WVU Organic Farm Research Jobs Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA17138 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 Research Assistant I. The Division of Plant and Soil Sciences at West Virginia University seeks a full-time research assistant to assist in a three-year research project to evaluate farming systems for transition from conventional to organic farming methods. A Bachelor's degree in Agronomy, Horticulture, Animal Science, or related fields is required. A valid driver's license and extensive knowledge of soils, bilogy, chemical physical, and biological analysis, field and laboratory techniques, and comprehensive writing, oral, and computer skills are among the requirements. Experience in organic farm or garden production is desired. The successful applicant will work with faculty in various disciplines and will coordinate field research activities. The position is available immediately and review of applications will continue until the position is filled. Applications, instructions, a complete job description, and necessary additional information can be obtained at:  http://www.wvu.edu/~humanres/emp.htm or contact: Department of Human Resources,  West Virginia University,  University Services Center,  PO Box 6640,  3040 University Avenue,   Morgantown WV 26506-6640  (304) 293-5700 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM Graduate Research Assistantships available: West Virignia University is seeking qualified graduate students to conduct research in methods of transition from conventional to organic farming systems. Research areas include Field crops agronomy, Horticulture, Plant pathology, Entomology, Soil science, Weed science, or related fields. Graduate study leading to a Masters or Ph.D. degree will be considered. For specific details on these positions, call Dr. James Kotcon at 304-293-3911 or write to: West Virginia University, Division of Plant and Soil Science, P. O. Box 6057, Morgantown, WV 26506-6057 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 11 23:35:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05052 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13732 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:13:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1405.mail.yahoo.com (web1405.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.169]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA13723 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:13:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991112041109.16132.rocketmail@web1405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.24.195] by web1405.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:11:09 PST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:11:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: Y2K: Money or Human Lives To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 November 11, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President & Executive Director, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net YEAR 2000: IS SAFETY & PREPAREDNESS THE OBJECTIVE OR STABILITY IN THE FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY? Most Americans are under the impression that everything is OK with regards to the Year 2000 technology problem. According to the Center for Y2K & Society: * A recent review of the Y2K readiness of 55 communities housing 40 million Americans shows that the majority are unprepared for Y2K. * Many 911 systems appear likely to fail and the medicaid system is at risk in over a third of the states. * Continuing problems with medical facilities and programs such as unemployment, child support, and food stamps, the persons now most likely to be harmed by Y2K are those least able to protect themselves: children, the poor, the elderly and the sick. The Center for Y2K & Society has distributed 20,000 copies nation-wide of the ``Y2K Community Report Card'' designed as a self-assessment tool for communities to determine their degree of preparedness. Evaluations were conducted by mayors' offices, city and state Y2K coordinators, emergency managers, Red Cross chapters, hospitals, non-profits and community groups. Following are the most troubling findings: * Less than one-third of respondents have back-up plans to pay health care providers in the event that checks are not mailed from Medicare, Medicaid, or private insurance systems. For example, the Health Care Financing Administration (HCFA) says 22 states are at high to medium risk of Medicaid program failures. * Most sewage treatment plants, telephone companies, and local utilities have not been independently audited, therefore it is difficult to determine to what extent these utilities may suffer from Y2K related failures * Only one-half of respondents have backup plans for assuring payment of key benefits such as food stamps, unemployment and child support, should such systems be delayed. * Less than one-half of respondents are ensuring that nursing homes will be Y2K ready in the event of a prolonged disruption. Over 1.6 million Americans reside in nursing homes. * One-half of the communities do not know if they will have a 30-day supply of critical medications on New Year's Day. Disruptions in the delivery of pharmaceuticals may threaten the medically-dependent in these communities. Additional information is accessible on the Y2KGLOBAL INFRASTRUCTURE RISKS WEB SITE: http://www.humanitarian.net/y2keconomic.html U.S. SENATE SPECIAL COMMITTEE URGES COMMUNITIES TO PREPARE FOR POTENTIAL HAZARDOUS CHEMICAL ACCIDENTS. On October 21, 1999, The U.S. Senate Special Committee for the Year 2000 technology Problem released a report prepared by the Texas Engineering Experiment Station's (TEES) Mary Kay O'Connor Process Safety Center headquartered at Texas A&M University in College Station. Its results include the following: * 86.5 percent of firms surveyed are not currently prepared for Y2K. * 85.6 percent have not coordinated emergency plans with local/community officials. A majority have not linked contingency planning to community emergency services such as police, fire and rescue, or hospitals. * 79 percent said they had never before been surveyed about Y2K preparedness. * A majority of respondents do not belong to industry organizations or trade associations, which have been the primary gatherers of Y2K preparedness information in the private sector. * 4.1 percent said Y2K presents A potential for a catastrophic event. An estimated 85 million Americans live within five miles of one of the 66,000 sites that handle hazardous chemicals. COMMUNITY & FAMILY PREPAREDNESS Humanitarian Resource Institute in cooperation with the FEMA Community & Family Preparedness Program has constructed a one stop Community & Family Preparedness resource guide on the internet. Included on this web site is the Preparedness Guide for Chemical Emergencies which was produced by the National Disaster Education Coalition: American Red Cross, FEMA, IAEM, IBHS, NFPA, NWS, USDA/CSREES, and USGS. Topics Include: * Why Talk About Chemical Emergencies? * What Is a Home Chemical Emergency, and a Major * Chemical Emergency? * Awareness Information * Preventing Chemical Emergencies in the Home * What to Do During a Home Chemical Emergency * Plan for Major Chemical Emergencies * Media and Communicate Education Ideas * What to Do During a Major Chemical Emergency * What to Do if You Are at the Scene of a Chemical Accident * How to Shelter-in-Place * Evacuation During a Chemical Emergency * What to Do After a Major Chemical Emergency The Community & Family Preparedness Resource Guide, as well as the "Your family Disaster Plan" and "Your Family Disaster Supplies Kit" guides can be found at: http://www.humanitarian.net/prepare.html The "Your Family Disaster Supplies Kit Guide" is available in Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Tagolog, Cambodian and Vietnames ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 01:02:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05823 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00527 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:30:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00514 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:30:17 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:28:15 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:14:44 -0600 To: Subject: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly illustrates that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on non-target species. Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing corn pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot of pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT toxin corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have negative effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 >To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, > >From: Charles Benbrook >Subject: Monarch Meeting > > Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the >outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on Monarchs >and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky Goldburg >of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to > >http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html > >Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer their >views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois >extension page, go to -- > >http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html > > We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and related >developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target >beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, thus >far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also post it >or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would >like posted, please contact me by private email. > > chuck > > > >Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com >Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net >5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net >Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 >208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 03:57:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06823 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA21135 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:29:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA21043 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [62.132.27.12] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA04600 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:27:05 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10221 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:29:08 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 12 Nov 99 09:21:17 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 12 Nov 99 09:20:47 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:20:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: RE: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <16543D011D5@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id DAA21061 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254 hello dale, >It sounds to me like HACCP is mainly commonsense sanitation. This is >important for human health and safety. Farmers who can't or won't do this, >should produce something other than fruits and vegetables. no, haacp aims more in the other direction: meat i wouldn't worry too much about haacp as a plant grower... at least not in the nearer future [Federal Register: October 24, 1995 (Volume 60, Number 205)] [Proposed Rules] [Page 54450-54457] >From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] ==================================================================== Proposed Rules Federal Register ==================================================================== DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Food Safety and Inspection Service 9 CFR Parts 308, 310, 318, 320, 325, 326, 327, and 381 [Docket No. 95-046N] Pathogen Reduction; Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (HACCP) Systems--Issue Papers AGENCY: Food Safety and Inspection Service, USDA. ACTION: Proposed Rule; issue papers. --- SUMMARY: On September 13-15, 1995 and September 27-29, 1995, the U.S. Department of Agriculture held issue-focused public meetings on the Food Safety and Inspection Service's (FSIS) proposed rule, ``Pathogen Reduction, Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (HACCP) Systems.'' At the meetings, FSIS made available issue papers on agenda topics. Those issue papers are published in this notice. SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The U.S. Department of Agriculture held issue-focused public meetings on September 13-15, and 27-29, 1995, on FSIS' proposed rule, ``Pathogen Reduction; Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (HACCP) Systems.'' The purpose of the meetings was to provide an opportunity for interested persons to directly discuss the key concerns that were raised during the comment period on the proposed rule, as well as the Agency's thinking about options under consideration in response to those concerns. For the meetings, FSIS prepared brief issue papers on agenda items that were discussed. The issue papers are: Issue Paper 1. ``Regulatory Shift to Performance Standards--`Layering';'' Issue Paper 2. ``Overview of HACCP Proposal FSIS Oversight of HACCP Changing Role of Inspectors Under HACCP;'' Issue Paper 3. ``Pathogen Reduction Performance Standards;'' Issue Paper 4. ``Carcass Cooling Standards for Red Meat and Poultry;'' Issue Paper 5. ``Specific Economic Considerations and Issues;'' Issue Paper 6. ``Specific Product Considerations Involving Religious, Ethnic, and Cultural Food Handling Practices;'' Issue Paper 7. ``Antimicrobial Treatments in Slaughter Plants;'' and Issue Paper 8. ``Specific Product Considerations Involving International Trade.'' II. Description of Comments Commenters generally supported the need for government to maintain oversight of meat and poultry production to ensure that industry is using a system of process control that assures safe product. Some commenters stated government needs to relinquish at least some of the role it plays in making decisions about the production process itself; that is, industry should have the responsibility for deciding how meat and poultry products are produced, provided it can demonstrate that it is maintaining process control at the level necessary to produce a safe product, and meets other regulatory requirements. There was general support for HACCP as an acceptable industry process control mechanism, though commenters raised a number of issues concerning specific provisions of the proposed rule. ---------------- and one thing, YOUR company should think about (at least a bit). yesterday our director came back from the annual meeting of the directors of the main german agricultural research institutes. at the end of the meeting they made an excursion to the largest mill of the largest german milling company for grain and corn (kampfmeyer). as it turned out, they test EVERY batch by pcr in double-blind analysis in two labs for GMO's. the ceo clearly told them, that they would BY NO MEANS be able to mill a GM variety, as the public would plainly avoid their products after a scandal for at least the usual span a consumer would remember (about 3 months) and that would mean their end. and no matter how WTO would decide, they simply would not be able to use such batches because they would upset their clients. and that would also be valid for corn meal (they also do produce). --------------- klaus wiegand +-[Quote of the day, powered by k. wiegand]---+ | Red meat is NOT bad for you. | | Blue-green meat, | | now *that's* bad for you! | | -Tommy Smothers | +---------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 05:55:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07431 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 05:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA21765 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 05:27:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21696 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 05:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 290; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:35:57 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991112033117.03abd820@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:31:17 -0600 To: mmiller@pcsia.com, From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 I have heard reports of problems around the GE canola in Canada. Anyone know more about this? At 11:14 PM 11/11/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: >Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly illustrates >that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on non-target >species. > >Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing corn >pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot of >pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee >species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT toxin >corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have negative >effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller > >>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 >>To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, >> >>From: Charles Benbrook >>Subject: Monarch Meeting >> >> Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the >>outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on Monarchs >>and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky Goldburg >>of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to >> >>http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html >> >>Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer their >>views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois >>extension page, go to -- >> >>http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html >> >> We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and related >>developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target >>beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, thus >>far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also post it >>or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would >>like posted, please contact me by private email. >> >> chuck >> >> >> >>Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com >>Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net >>5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net >>Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 >>208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 07:17:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07767 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17182 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:57:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17090 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-171.s171.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.171]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id GAA05079; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:54:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382C004F.FA5EA7EF@erols.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:55:59 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: what's wrong with eating commercial chicken? References: <1008F98907ED@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 Give him Jeremy Rifkin's book, Beyond Beef. That's why we eat deer out here in the country - as free range as one can get! Robert. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 08:20:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08278 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26410 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:59:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu (dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu [157.182.140.74]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26401 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default ([157.182.7.157]) by dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/JLF-19981102) with ESMTP id HAA10710; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:58:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112072630.009b5cf0@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jlozier@wvu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:31:42 -0500 To: Meredith R Reeves 00 , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: John Lozier Subject: Re: SustAg and liberalArts In-Reply-To: References: <199911112310.SAA06130@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 IMHO, agriculture should be in liberal arts legislation. Why hang the flag of sustainability on it? The issues of concern to us will emerge if you just put AGRICULTURE on the agenda. After years as a closet sustaggie, calling myself an agroecologist, I've been trying to come out to ag school and extension people. I've been pitching the Consortium for Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (CSARE). Surprise. The concept of sustainability still doesn't go down very well. But when you say "if you eat, you're involved in agriculture," then people have to agree. Just study and teach agriculture. John Lozier West Virginia University At 09:20 PM 11/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have any strong (or otherwise) opinions on sustainable >agriculture as part of a liberal arts education. My senior >environmental studies seminar is proposing that sustainable ag be >included in the env studies curriculm, and needs convincing evidence. Any >sources, books, comments, etc would be appreciated. I think that it is a >really interesting point of debate. > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 10:10:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09961 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00274 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:13:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.state.mn.us (state.mn.us [156.99.125.109]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA07522 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mda.state.mn.us by mail.state.mn.us; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:11:32 -0600 Received: from STP-Message_Server by mda.state.mn.us with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:07:31 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:07:24 -0600 From: "Prescott Bergh" To: Subject: Re: SustAg and liberalArts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_50094933.B3D2BDA0" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_50094933.B3D2BDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Meredith, I graduated from the Science in Society Program at Wesleyan University in Connecticut in 1981 and did my thesis on organic farming in Minnesota. My take on the validity of sustainable ag in a liberal arts education stems from a simple historical fact that most modern people don't seem to know, remember or consider valuable. The creation of agriculture allowed humans to go from nomadic hunter gathers following game and wild plant resources to larger groups in settlements with a steady food supply. To me it is clear that agriculture is the first of the arts of civilization, and allowed more security and leisure time for the development of other aspects of 'civilization'. There have been many civilizations that developed on the back of agriculture and then ignored this fundamental fact. Their exploitation of natural resources and the social resources (farmers) led them to make massive mistakes that destroyed these foundations of their civilization. Take a look around the Mediterranean, where the "cradle of civilization' is not desert, the cedars of Lebanon are gone and the good soils of Italy, Greece and north Africa were destroyed thousands of years ago. Some of the Greek writers decried this waste as early as 800 BC. There is a great book, Topsoil and Civilization by V.G. Carter, published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1955 that should be required reading in highschool, in my opinion. So as I se it, we are making the same mistake, but are now doing it on a worldwide scale that will leave no land or water resource untouched, and we will have no place to go. How to reign in our desire to live beyond our means, to stop this destruction of the productive capacity of the earth is in my mind the ultimate question for our generation. To me, this great theme and understanding are what a liberal arts education is all about. Prescott H. Bergh Outreach Coordinator Energy and Sustainable Agriculture Program Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W. Plato Blvd. St. Paul, MN 55107 direct phone 651-215-0367 program phone 651-296-7673 fax 651-297-7678 e-mail: prescott.bergh@state.mn.us Web Site: http://www.mda.state.mn.us --=_50094933.B3D2BDA0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Prescott Bergh.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Prescott Bergh TEL;WORK:651-215-0367 ORG:;Ag Marketing & Development TEL;PREF;FAX:651-296-4421 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:PBergh.CORP.STP N:Bergh;Prescott TITLE:Sustainable Agriculture Outreach X-GWUSERID:PBergh END:VCARD --=_50094933.B3D2BDA0-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 10:12:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09985 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14991 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:48:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web805.mail.yahoo.com (web805.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.65]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14929 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:48:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991112144558.918.rocketmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.167] by web805.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:45:58 PST Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:45:58 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Commercial Chicken To: sanet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 Not to fan the fire, but no-one has mentioned the way commercial chickens are handled. I must offer my caveat that this is not my area of expertise, but the word on MY street is that the chicken can still be processed as long as there are no more than 3 open sores on its body. I'm sure there's more such stories. Kirsten __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 10:40:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10962 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20145 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:36:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20111 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id HAA06060; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:34:21 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma005486; Fri, 12 Nov 99 07:33:42 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:33:42 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFF9@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'John Lozier'" , Meredith R Reeves 00 Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: SustAg and liberalArts Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:33:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 John, > Surprise. The concept of sustainability still doesn't go down > very well. But when you say "if you eat, you're involved in > agriculture," then people have to agree. > Just study and teach agriculture. I couldn't agree more. Attempting to put political spin into the curriculum (or giving that appearance) is not appropriate, and will produce strife. Lack of appreciation and understanding of agriculture is part of a lack of understanding of biology, and science in general. IMO the appropriate role of science in liberal arts education is integration of a general understanding of science and the environment with human culture. I envision a course called "Agriculture and civilization." The elements would include: 1. Hunting/gathering way of life 2. Probable origins of agriculture 3. Domestication of plants and animals 4. Elaboration of economies and empires 5. Agriculture and the phenomenon of modernity 6. Pushing the limits: current issues in agriculture Maybe too ambitious. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:00:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11337 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05816 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05765 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00411; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08485; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jennsueb@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08481; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:03:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: jennsueb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:03:22 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Sue Butler To: "Wilson, Dale" cc: "'John Lozier'" , Meredith R Reeves 00 , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: SustAg and liberalArts In-Reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFF9@vela.phibred.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 Dale wrote: > I envision a course called "Agriculture and civilization." The elements > would include: > 1. Hunting/gathering way of life > 2. Probable origins of agriculture > 3. Domestication of plants and animals > 4. Elaboration of economies and empires > 5. Agriculture and the phenomenon of modernity > 6. Pushing the limits: current issues in agriculture > We do have a class similar to what you describe at the University of Maryland. The class, Crops, Soils and Civilization, is taught by our soil chemistry professor. Jennifer Butler UMD, soil science To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:05:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11401 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26182 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:48:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26026 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.74.6.200]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <19991112134607.RJGI11272@worldnet.att.net> for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:46:07 +0000 Message-ID: <382C1A22.206E0CD6@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:46:10 -0600 From: Doyle Perkins X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sanet List Subject: What's wrong with eating commercial checken Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 Anita, If you are willing to consider multiple reasons for free range animal production,which there are , go at the presentation(problem/argument?) in steps. If your friend is becoming conversant with ecology, start there. Try all the articles on the environmental damage and contamination caused by the hurricanes and heavy rains in the southeast this summer. Then, check the archives and try searches on the economic blackmail that goes on between the chicken buyers and the persons who are contracted to raise them. Also do a history search for an incident that happened here in Texas a few years back. I don't remember the details, but it had something to do with Bo Pilgrim(sp?) of Pilgrim's Pride and (attempted?) gifts of money to our state legislators. Seems as how I remember that there just happened to be some bill due before them that would affect him. I haven't any meat processing plants since elementry school(40+ years ago), so I can't specifically confirm that conditions really aren't much better than when Sinclair Lewis wrote his book exposing the meat packing industry. But, then I know Big Brother is watching out for us(we need some way to indicate tons of sarcasum in our written language). Lay the ground work with these and then Hit the health concerns or he may not be able to believe all the information at once. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:34:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12132 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA22754 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22743 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu (bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.140]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15009; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:53:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.140] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <382C61D5.1E45@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:52:05 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, rverzola@phil.gn.apc.org, mritchie@iatp.org Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFC9@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 Wilson, Dale wrote: > > Loren, Roberto, and Mark, > First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive > modern quantitative analysis really is. Dale, I am trying to rephrase your comment to ensure that I fully understand your position before responding. Are you suggesting that our disagreement with your position can only have its basis in a misunderstanding of analytic chemistry? If not, please clarify, because that's what I think you said. If so, you have misunderstood our statements and made a response unrelated to our positions. I'll try this again. We were discussing finding chloropyrifos in the urine of practically everybody. Loren wrote: > Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is > disregarded as being in the category of things we call > "a problem." Deciding whether to label something a "problem" or not is a matter of policy, not chemistry. Roberto wrote: > I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination > quite incredible. The analytic chemistry showed the unambiguous presence of chloropyrifos in the urine or 80-90% of the people checked. Mark wrote: > Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of > both property rights and human rights. Mark does not wish to allow this chemical trespass and feels that his rights have been violated. To these above quotes, Dale responds: > Loren, Roberto, and Mark, > First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive > modern quantitative analysis really is. None of us said anything about analytic chemistry. We were all making the point that we find it a problem when manufactured substances which we have never used and in fact actively avoid contact with, nevertheless can be found in our bodies, as evidenced by being excreted by our bodies. Sombody manufactures chloropyrifos. They sell it to person B. Now person B "owns" it. As it is applied, person B seems to be allowing it to run amok, and many of us are not pleased with that. Person B is not allowed to store his lawnmower in my garage. His shoes are not under my bed; his livestock may not graze in my front yard, nor may his dog crap there. No shoes, no lawnmowers, not a single grazing animal, not one little turd. Zero. I don't have to prove that it would injure me seriously to have B doing any of these things. I do not want these things on my property, and that reason is sufficient. That is also the case for chloropyrifos. I did not buy it. I do not benefit from it. I don't want it in my personal space or on my property for any reason, in any quantity. If it's there, then person B still "owns" it and he is trespassing with his stuff. He should have to keep better track of his belongings. If it is not possible to ascertain which "person B" has been careless with his purchase, then it is fine with me if the legal responsibility for the substance still belongs to the manufacturer. I still haven't said anything about analytic chemistry. This subject matter is not in the realm of analytic chemistry. I have taken the opportunity to have 150 college students decide whether chloropyrifos in the urine is or is not a "problem," by giving the choice to them on an exam. They may choose either, provided only that they supply their reasoning. I'll let you know what they think when I'm done grading this mountain of papers. > At a sufficiently low level of > contamination, this controversy devolves into theoretical hair-splitting. What does that mean? The "threshold" concept has never been validated, and it is probably not valid. It is the responsibliity of all modelers (for example those who estimate toxicological risk) to know the limitations of the model and ALL of the assumptions built into the model. The threshold assumption is built in to all the models. It's use, however, is not a matter of analytic chemistry, it is merely a policy choice, and we all know that POLICY and CHEMISTRY are not the same thing. Or do we all know it? Must we eternally suffer this mutant dialogue, where every time somebody doesn't like where the policy conversation is headed, a random comment about "sound science" is inserted in the hope of deflecting the conclusion? > Second, society subjects all of us to all kinds of risks. Name some. This conversation is improved by specificity. How is this statement relevant to the discussion of chloropyrifos in the urine of people who never use chloropyrifos? > Ordinary risks we accept without second thought are a lot bigger than > pesticide risk (as far as I can tell). Name some. Explain the relevance of this statement. Which non-zero risks do "we" accept with absolutely zero benefit to us? I cannot think of any. Or do we "accept" them because we have no choice? Do we accept them because we do not know about them? Is our conscious, informed choice implied by your use of the word "accept?" Are you and I are the same person in your "we" scenario? > Third, we constantly ingest all manner of toxic substances that occur > naturally. How many of these compounds are large, chlorinated molecules? Which ones were humans never exposed to before 1900? Which ones do we ingest without knowing that we are eating something? How is this statement relevant to chloropyrifos in my body? > To a large extent, the function of kidneys and liver is to > detoxify and/or eliminate these things. Yes, these organs have co-evolved with other life forms on this planet for many millions of years, and can, to some extent, allow the organism to escape harm from naturally occurring toxins evolved over the same time scale. UNLIKE CHLOROPYRIFOS. And that's not analytic chemistry either, it's evolutionary biology, which apparently is not a permitted subject matter in some parts of this country. I wonder if my email will arrive with "the E word" deleted? Loren To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:39:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12260 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25923 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:08:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25878 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.93] (r-67.179.alltel.net [166.102.67.179]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id KAA24802 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:06:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:07:49 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: "Sustainable" agriculture? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 >IMHO, agriculture should be in liberal arts legislation. Why hang the flag >of sustainability on it? The issues of concern to us will emerge if you >just put AGRICULTURE on the agenda. > >After years as a closet sustaggie, calling myself an agroecologist, I've >been trying to come out to ag school and extension people. I've been >pitching the Consortium for Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education >(CSARE). Surprise. The concept of sustainability still doesn't go down >very well. But when you say "if you eat, you're involved in agriculture," >then people have to agree. > >Just study and teach agriculture. > >John Lozier >West Virginia University Dear John and List, My sentiments and well stated. Upon first encountering biodynamic agriculture (over 20 years ago) I expressed the same sentiments to the president of the biodynamic association, who was also editor of its journal. Biodynamic agriculture was top notch agriculture, the best. Anything less didn't really deserve to be called agriculture becausethat other stuff, rather than supporting our culture it heralded its demise. "Yes, but. . ." he rejoined. "We have to distinguish ourselves from the bad boys who are practicing utter lunacy and have pre-empted the term, 'AGRICULTURE.'" I could see his point and still do. Yet in the intervening 22 years biodynamic agriculture has hardly made any headway toward becoming mainstream. Could it be because the proponents identify themselves as "biodynamic?" Far more than "sustainable" this is regenerative agriculture. But agriculture practiced properly should be regenerative. Joel Salatin doesn't go in much for all the modifiers, but what he is doing pasturing animals is very, very regenerative--good farming--and it is catching on plenty faster than most of these things with all the adjectives in front of the word "agriculture." Must be some reason for that. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:55:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12568 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06843 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:07:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA06785 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id IAA15712; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:05:35 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma015197; Fri, 12 Nov 99 08:05:03 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:05:03 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFFA@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:04:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 Hello Klaus, > and one thing, YOUR company should think about (at least a > bit). yesterday our director came back from the annual meeting > of the directors of the main german agricultural research > institutes. at the end of the meeting they made an excursion > to the largest mill of the largest german milling company for > grain and corn (kampfmeyer). as it turned out, they test EVERY > batch by pcr in double-blind analysis in two labs for GMO's. the > ceo clearly told them, that they would BY NO MEANS be able to > mill a GM variety, as the public would plainly avoid their > products after a scandal for at least the usual span a consumer > would remember (about 3 months) and that would mean their end. > and no matter how WTO would decide, they simply would not be > able to use such batches because they would upset their clients. > and that would also be valid for corn meal (they also do produce). Yes, this is clearly the issue of the day (year?). In fact, The Crop Science Society is planning a symposium for our meeting next year in Minneapolis. At least in division C4 (Seeds). Our C4 symposium on GM seed production and testing issues will probably be one of a collage of about three sessions. The others will deal with grain and education, I guess. The technical GMO issues in milling grain have to do with tolerances, sampling, and testing. PCR is extremely sensitive. Most forms of these tests simply give a yes-or-no answer. With discrete seeds or grains, sensitivity is limited by the number of kernels taken to be ground in the sample. If you grind together 10,000 grains, then the sensitivity is on the order of 1 in 10,000, or 0.01%. But when grain is sampled AFTER milling, the sensitivity may be excessive (that is, in terms of percent GMO grain needed to produce a positive reaction). It would not be surprising to mill grain that tested negative, then find that the flour tests positive, due to the presence of a minute percentage of GMO kernels in the bulk. The practical matter is that European public officials must decide on tolerances. Trying to stick to zero will paralyze the system. I have heard that the officials are dithering on this issue because of conflicting political pressures. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 12:49:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13939 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA26076 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:05:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from unlserve.unl.edu (root@unlserve.unl.edu [129.93.1.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25989 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from pmurray.unl.edu (ag-pmurray.unl.edu [129.93.224.80]) by unlserve.unl.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA65922; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:00:31 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:00:31 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19991112110609.3dbfb226@unlserve.unl.edu> X-Sender: pmurray@unlserve.unl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, news@email.cas.psu.edu From: Pam Murray Subject: Nov-Dec 1999 CSAS Newsletter Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id MAA26007 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 November-December 1999 CSAS Newsletter The Center for Sustainable Agricultural Systems (CSAS) in the Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources (IANR) at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) is an interdisciplinary center formed in 1991 for the purpose of bringing together people and resources to promote an agriculture that is efficient, competitive, profitable, environmentally and socially sustainable for the indefinite future. The newsletters are also available along with other sustainable ag information on our World Wide Web page: http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/csas Note: The electronic version is not sent to individual e-mail addresses. To be added to the "hard copy" newsletter mailing list beginning with the next bimonthly issue (not sent to overseas addresses), or for questions or comments, contact the newsletter editor, Pam Murray, Coordinator, Center for Sustainable Agricultural Systems, PO Box 830949, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, NE 68583-0949, 402-472-2056, fax -4104, e-mail: pmurray1@.unl.edu. Comments about the content or usefulness of this newsletter are always welcome. * * * CONTENTS: CONFERENCE SHOWS LARGE INTEREST IN SMALL FARMS UNIVERSITY ROLE IN BIOTECHNOLOGY: WHAT DO PEOPLE SAY AND WHY? LOSS OF BIODIVERSITY A GROWING CONCERN RESOURCES COMING EVENTS DID YOU KNOW... * * * CONFERENCE SHOWS LARGE INTEREST IN SMALL FARMS According to the USDA criterion, a small farm has less than $250,000 gross annual income. In the U.S., these farms hold 75% of all assets and 72% of all land, and they produce 41% of all farm receipts. The profile in Nebraska is similar, although our family farms tend to have more acres and larger equipment. Small farms have provided the families, the support for schools and businesses, and the backbone of rural communities. The classical Goldschmidt study of communities in California in the 1940s showed the much higher quality of life in a community of small, privately-owned farms (Dinuba) compared to that in a community surrounded by large, corporate farms (Arvin). The same structure and social consequences are equally important 50 years later in that place. The Second National Small Farm Conference in St. Louis (October 12-15) this year explored both the current contributions and the future potential of small farms in the U.S. The recent USDA report "A Time to Act" listed several principles that should guide small farm development: - produce safe, healthy, and diverse foods - connect farmers with consumers - promote rural communities - encourage natural resource stewardship - live in a safe and responsible environment - support competition in free markets - allow people to own farms - generate family income comparable to other economic sectors These principles provide a stark contrast to the singular profit motive of corporate, industrial agriculture. In conclusion, the report states that "Small farms are the most entrepreneurial and possibly the most innovative in U.S. agriculture." Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman reported to the conference that small farmers were at the top of the USDA agenda, that the agency is enhancing rural development efforts through small farms, and that small farm owners must share in the general prosperity of the U.S. Under Secretary Miley Gonzalez added the importance of education as well as new products and new uses in agriculture. In a keynote presentation, John Ikerd from Missouri described the takeover of agriculture by corporate agribusiness, a process driven by greed and the final step in industrialization. He cited the concentration of wealth in a few corporations and how this led to deterioration of both natural and human resources. "Industrialization is not good for farmers and is not good for the environment," according to Ikerd. In a call to action, he said the time for quietness is past, and that a post-industrial agriculture would be built on small scale, site-specific management and solutions, local ownership, and local markets. Ikerd insisted that small farms are the only viable route to equity and participation in the fruits of agriculture, and a system built on individual ownership and management with a large number of small farmers and business people is the one in which a free market will flourish while benefiting local people. He said that the current banner is sustainability. The Small Farm Conference brought together more than 400 people with interest in small scale, entrepreneurial agriculture. It was obvious from the displays that federal and other public agencies have a large interest in the small farm sector, and that the non-profit organizations are among the most active and useful in this arena. The universities have much to contribute, but thus far have spent most of their energies developing technologies for a large-scale, industrial model. Many speakers at the conference asked for a change in land-grant research and education priorities toward smaller, more sustainable farms and the appropriate technologies to make them profitable. Submitted by Chuck Francis UNIVERSITY ROLE IN BIOTECHNOLOGY: WHAT DO PEOPLE SAY AND WHY? Sixth in a Series. There is growing debate about the emerging role of universities in research and applications of biotechnology. Current interest and investment in production and use of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) have sparked a revolution in university research laboratories and fields. Perhaps no single set of new techniques and potential technologies has caused such a substantial short-term shift in focus of people and resources in universities. We hope that encouraging debate within the university community and among our clients will help inform people of the issues and aid in charting a rational strategy for the future. Perspectives from the Midwest Through this series we have discussed many of the basic causes for debate on the issue of transgenic crops: ownership of germplasm, potentials for gene escape, food safety, economics and who benefits, consumer attitudes, and impacts on agriculture and communities. The debate continues to grow, often focused on the issue of labeling, preserving identity of non-GMO grains, and economics of using these technologies. There is great concern among farmers who planted hybrids and varieties that included this new technology and who paid a premium for seed, only to find that they must now sell the product for a lower price. Some people in the system call for labeling so that consumers can make informed choices in their food purchases. Others maintain that we just need better education on the safety and contributions of GMO-based crop products—to negate the unfounded fears in what they consider an obviously valuable new technology. Many in the U.S. seed industry are quick to blame the European consumer and politician for creating barriers to trade. Organic farmers and food advocates insist that this technology is both dangerous and unnecessary. Most consumers are confused about the issues, even if they have read articles and seen TV bytes about the debate. How do we sort out all the information we hear, and what do different people in the food system say about new, genetically engineered crops and foods? And why? First we must assume that people say what they believe—any other interpretation would be second guessing their motives and usually would be pure speculation. It seems rational to examine what is said about crops and products derived from transgenic-based technologies, consider the source and vested interest behind that source, and then try to make sense of what is happening. Ultimately, the consumer will determine the success of any new food or other technology, and educators can contribute to making that decision an informed one. The following are paraphrased quotes from personal interviews, along with my comments and interpretations. Dean in a College of Agriculture: "The university has been relatively silent about GMOs, and it is time for knowledgeable faculty to share their expertise to help shape informed public policy. We cannot be biased, but we can provide information about the usefulness and safety of GMO crops to allow the public to make an enlightened decision for themselves." This administrator is a well-informed scientist, a person who understands genetics and some implications of technology, and is responsible for helping other scientists find research support from industry and government. A bias is clear when there is no mention of non-utility and potential dangers of the technologies—the statement appears to be advocacy rather than education. Conventional Farmer in the Midwest: "This is a good type of technology, one that helps me to farm more responsibly with fewer chemicals on more acres. We don't want to go back to old systems." The farmer is convinced of the production benefits of GMO crops, and would not appreciate any interference in the availability of a new technology that makes the operation more efficient and stable. Alternative Crop Farmer: "There is a premium paid today for non-GMO crop products, and this is something that we should be able to take advantage of." This farmer is not convinced of the value of the new GMO hybrids, and chooses to stay with standard seed rather than pay the higher price for new seed hybrids. Now it could be rewarding to sell what the market wants: a product without the GMO technology. Food Processor: "How can you really guarantee that a product is completely free of GMO grains? There are tests available, but they are too expensive and unreliable." Here the complexity of GMO technology and products becomes relevant. Unlike foods that are evaluated by appearance, quality, and uniformity, we see the effects of an industrial and global industry based on regulation and control. Elevator Operator in Midwest: "This will be an incredible hassle to separate and maintain identity of different grains. We are not prepared for this, and the costs of such an investment in facilities would have to be charged to the farmer and eventually the consumer." The costs and inconvenience faced by many in the grain trade far outweigh the opportunities for unique identity and marketing niches for new products. Non-Profit Group Director: "The entire GMO industry is anti-small farm, and this technology promotes the industrial approach to agriculture." The impacts of a specific new technology are seen as symptomatic of changes in the structure of agriculture, resulting in a loss of small family farms and the strength that they bring to communities. Although the new varieties are not the only causal factor, they are an obvious high-profile example of what many consider to be scale-specific technologies from research that provides yet another advantage to an industrial-model farm. European Cereal Breeder: "The terminator gene could prevent cereals from sprouting in the ear or head; that would be an advantage to farmers who are faced with rain and high humidity during the harvest period." This answer typifies the discipline-specific thinking with which we currently approach research and new technologies; we think in terms of a single cause, a single effect, and a technology that can solve that single problem. European Ecological Agriculture Scientist: "Why do we need this technology, and who will benefit from its use? As I see it, transgenic crosses are not a natural process, and GMOs seem to move more control over agriculture to the multinational corporations." Here is a holistic and critical view of the new technology, and a suggestion that wider issues are important even as we evaluate the potential impacts of single technologies. Urban Consumer in U.S.: "I've seen plenty of publicity and controversy about the GMO issue, but I really don't understand what people are saying. If the government agencies say that this is safe, I assume that it is. Why not shop for cheap food as long as it looks good?" The average consumer in this country is not concerned about food safety, other than reading about some of the more spectacular problems when there is a well-publicized outbreak of food poisoning. People generally believe and trust the government as well as commercial food companies. Urban Consumer in Europe: "It's hard to trust the government. Just look at the mad cow disease in England! And when multinational corporations come in with cheap food, this leads to loss of culture as well as business for local shops." A much different attitude seems to prevail in Europe about what is safe, what is nutritious, and what is culturally acceptable. Organic food consumption is much higher in several of the northern European countries, compared to the U.S., and there are multiple reasons for this difference, one of which is avoidance of food containing GMOs. What is the university's role? As stated by the dean in the first example, our main goal is education. As a public institution, we design programs for the public good—as perceived by each individual instructor or Extension educator. Individuals in the public domain have opinions, specific experiences in their own education and training, and personal connections with groups inside and outside their organizations. When sorting out the different messages about GMOs from a plethora of sources, including universities, it is essential to consider the qualifications and the vested interests behind those sources, and who will gain from society's acceptance of a given opinion or information source. In universities, we write grant proposals and seek support for research and teaching beyond what is available from our state employers. As a university researcher, I can best serve the public good by getting more funds to do more and better research. Yet this process also puts me in a position of considering the grant source and their opinions about technologies—an especially critical factor if that source is a company involved in developing and marketing GMO crops. It is no easy task for people to sort out the many conflicting reports about the positive potentials and serious possible consequences of these new technologies. An informed and objective debate is the best possible avenue to rational decisions by society for the future. Submitted by Chuck Francis Editor's Note: The UNL Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources has formed a nine- member ad hoc task force to address current public issues related to biotechnology. It is chaired by Dr. Anne Vidaver, director of the UNL Center for Biotechnology and head of the Department of Plant Pathology; Dr. Darrell Nelson, Agricultural Research Division Dean and Director, will serve as the administrative liaison for the task force. The group is to: "develop a plan for communicating factual information regarding the benefits and risks of producing biotechnology-enhanced plants and animals for human food; develop a series of letters to the editor and/or opinion/editorial documents that are scientifically correct and address the major issues raised by opponents of biotechnology; and work with CIT (communications unit) to disseminate information to newspapers and magazines and through a special IANR Web site." LOSS OF BIODIVERSITY A GROWING CONCERN Crop improvement is based on access to a wide range of genes, for resistance to insects and pathogens, for stress tolerance, and for quality traits. The high-yielding varieties and hybrids we use in Nebraska are the result of crosses with land races or wild relatives of current crops. When we lose farmers' original varieties or habitat for wild ancestors, or fail to preserve these materials in our germplasm banks, the long-term effect will be a compromising of future potential for improving crops. "Biotechnology is no solution to this loss of genetic diversity," according to John Tuxill in a recent report from Worldwatch Institute. "We are increasingly skillful at moving genes around, but only nature can create them. If a plant bearing a unique genetic trait disappears, there is no way to get it back." The gene banks maintained in Fort Collins by USDA and numerous other banks around the world attempt to maintain collections of most important food crops. These banks are poorly funded, and some gene sources are lost while waiting in boxes to be catalogued and stored. Botanical gardens, seed savers' networks, and other private initiatives are trying to help save this inheritance to provide a rich genetic resource to future generations. In addition to importance for agriculture, genetic diversity is critical as a source of new medicines. Current moves toward globalizing the food system, homogenizing diets and food sources, and concentrating ownership in a few multinational corporations all emphasize short-term profits at the expense of long-term sustainability. This should be a concern to all Nebraska citizens. Submitted by Charles Francis RESOURCES Nature's Cornucopia: Our Stake in Plant Diversity, $5. Widespread losses of plant species and varieties are eroding the foundations of agricultural productivity and threatening other plant-based products used by billions of people worldwide, reports a new study by the Worldwatch Institute. See http://www.worldwatch.org/pubs/paper/148.html. USDA Economic Research Service has a Farm Structure Research Program that identifies, measures, and analyzes forces contributing to current farm structure and farm structural change, investigates the role and future of small farms, examines efficiency/size relationships in major U.S. farming subsectors, measures farm enterprise cost structure, level and distribution, quantifies farm diversification, and advances analytical tools for conducting farm structure and performance research and analysis. For more information, see http://www.econ.ag.gov/briefing/farmstructure/index.htm. Organic Farming and Marketing Research: New Partnerships and Priorities. Free. Proceedings of October 1998 conference sponsored by Organic Farming Research Foundation, USDA and Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture. Focuses on current status and future prospects for organic agricultural research and education within USDA and elsewhere. Includes text of presentations on research needs from farm inspector's perspective, data needs of the organic industry, international issues pertaining to organic agriculture, and more. OFRF, PO Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061, 831-426-6606, research@ofrf.org, http://www.ofrf.org. The Nebraska Cooperative Extension has a new Web site, ruralroutes.unl.edu. It is designed to help farmers and ranchers and rural communities maneuver through today's changing agricultural economy and includes the following categories: marketing, finances, stress and change, families and communities, crops, livestock, alternatives, and policy. Pest Management in U.S. Agriculture. $18. USDA Economic Research Service report (ERS Handbook No. 717) has a wealth of data based on the 1996 ARMS (Agricultural Resource Management Study) survey. Will serve as a good baseline for various analysts and organizations wanting to project the impacts of GMOs. See http://www.econ.ag.gov/epubs/pdf/ah717, or call 202-694- 5050. Editor's Note: The following four reviews by Charles Francis are of books published between 1915 and 1999; all have relevance to living in balance with natural resources plus human decisions to create a sustainable future. Herland and Selected Stories (Charlotte Perkins Gilman, 1992, Signet Classics, N.Y.): The title story originally published in 1915 provides brilliant insight by an early feminist who presents an idealistic view of a utopian, 2000-year-old society of women. Published long before environmental issues and educational reform were hot topics, Gilman explores agroforestry, food production without chemicals, integrating work with pleasure, and how a village can raise the children. I highly recommend Herland for the thoughtful reader who wants historical perspective on sustainable agriculture. Hope, Human, and Wild: True Stories of Living Lightly on the Earth (Bill McKibbon, 1995, Little, Brown & Co., Boston): Best known for The End of Nature, McKibbon explains two current models where sustainability is high on the agenda and there is progress toward that goal. In Curitiba, Brazil, the successful efforts of an energetic and forward-thinking mayor have catalyzed the imagination of planners and citizens alike. The result is a beautiful city with viable transport and other public services, support for people of all classes, and progressive industry. In stark economic contrast is the state of Kerala, India, where per capita annual income is $330 per year, yet resources are shared and enhanced for future generations. In contrast to the people-oriented capitalism in Curitiba, the pragmatic communist governments in Kerala since achieving independence have built a a viable society on a limited resource base. McKibbon then applies these lessons from Third World models to his own threatened Adirondack home—and shows clearly that sustainable ideas can come from a wide range of places around the globe. Believing Cassandra (Alan AtKisson, 1999, Chelsea Green Publ., White River Junction, Vermont): An articulate and light-hearted book about a heavy subject, Believing Cassandra urges the reader to take seriously the warnings of those looking into the future. Cassandra, youngest daughter of the last King of Troy, was blessed with the ability to foresee the future, but cursed with the fact that no one would believe her prophecies. Alan AtKisson carefully distinguishes between the needs to stop Growth, to encourage Development, and to embrace Sustainability. The book is best summarized with a quote: "...we are not talking here about a dull, earnest, melancholy, hair-shirt king of existence, where everyone wears identical tunics and gives thanks for their daily servings of gruel, content with the knowledge that Nature has been protected and the Collective equitably served. A sustainable World, properly understood, is not only an abundant World: it is a wildly diverse and fascinating World. This is a World spilling over with opportunities for personal advancement, business development, creative expression, exploration of the unknown. Sustainability is beautiful and reasonable and profitable, all at once. Sustainable solutions come in every imaginable shape and size, reflect every cultural variation, make possible the highest aspirations of individual human beings. Sustainability itself is not Utopia, but something much more realistic and more interesting: it is the process of trying to reach Utopia from a thousand different directions." This is a goal worthy of our attention. The book is available from Chelsea Green Publishing Company, PO Box 428, Gates-Briggs Building #205, White River Junction, VT 05001, 800-639-4099, http://www.chelseagreen.com/Cassandra/index.html. Changing the Way America Farms: Knowledge and Community in the Sustainable Agriculture Movement, (Neva Hassanein, 1999, Nebraska Press, Lincoln): Who says that doctoral studies always sit on the shelf and gather dust? This exciting book by recent University of Wisconsin graduate Neva Hassanein describes the alternative information network developed by farmers seeking answers to complex, systems-level questions on their farms. She worked with the Ocooch Grazers Network who practice intensive rotational grazing and the Wisconsin Women's Sustainable Farming Network, a group that focuses on farm systems as well as family quality of life. The result is a readable book that provides an attractive direction—farmers taking responsibility for their futures. They show how science can be combined with practical experience, and thus made available in a common language that is accessible to farmers. To order, call 1-800-755-1105, or e-mail press@unlinfo.unl.edu. COMING EVENTS Contact CSAS office for more information. 2000 Jan. 5-6 – Mid-America Fruit Growers Conference, St. Joseph, MO Jan. 7-8 – Great Plains Regional Vegetable Conference, St. Joseph, MO Jan. 19-22 – 20th Annual Ecological Farming Conference, Pacific Grove, CA, http://www.csa-efc.org Jan. 27 – Nebraska Forage and Grassland Council Annual Meeting, Lincoln, NE Jan. 28-30 – Northern Plains Sustainable Ag Society Annual Conference, Aberdeen, SD Feb. 2-5 – Aquaculture America 2000: Unmasking the Marvels of Aquaculture, New Orleans, LA, http://www.was.org/confer/neworleans/neworleans.htm Feb. 11-12 – North American Farmers' Direct Marketing Association Educational Sessions, Cincinnati, OH Feb. 14-18 – International Conference on Managing Natural Resources for Sustainable Agricultural Production in the 21st Century, New Delhi, India , http://www.nic.in/icar/intconf.html Feb. 26 – Nebraska Sustainable Agriculture Society Healthy Farms Conference & Annual Meeting, Aurora, NE Feb. 28-Mar. 2 – International Plant Resistance to Insects Workshop, Fort Collins, CO, http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/bspm/Meetings/ipri.html Mar. 7-9 – Farming and Ranching for Profit, Stewardship, and Community Conference, Portland, OR, http://wsare.usu.edu/2000/ Mar. 13-16 – Conference on Land Stewardship in the 21st Century: The Contributions of Watershed Management, Tucson, AZ, http://www.srnr.arizona.edu/2000conf/landconf.html Mar. 27-29 – Soil, Food and People: A Biointensive Model for the New Century, Davis, CA, http://www.universityextension.ucdavis.edu/biointensive/ For additional events, see: http://www.sare.org/wreg/view_notice_adm.pl http://www.agnic.org/mtg/ DID YOU KNOW... According to critics, the recently passed agricultural assistance package loosens rules that were intended to target government payments to family-size operations. Chuck Hassebrook, program director of the Center for Rural Affairs in Walthill, Nebraska, is among those who contend that the looser rules will hasten the demise of smaller-scale operations as big farms use the extra cash to buy up land from the neighbors. The crop value of all horticultural production (including dry beans and potatoes) in Nebraska in 1997 was $160,427,000, an increase of 61% compared to 1992. Research at Iowa State U. has shown that corn gluten meal has potential as a natural pre-emergence herbicide for use on turf and organic crop production. For details, see http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/. Among the recommendations in the September 1999 issue of Consumer Reports magazine is that "all foods containing genetically engineered ingredients be labeled as such, including milk with recombinant bovine growth hormone," and that the USDA "set a single, national standard for certified-organic food that excludes genetically engineered food from the definition." The Organic Materials Review Institute has developed a catalog of allowed and regulated products in organic agriculture, and a new seal for organic farmers and processors that identifies the OMRI-approved products that they use in their organic operations. See http://www.omri.org/. Susan Seacrest of Lincoln, Nebraska, founder and president of The Groundwater Foundation (formerly the Nebraska Groundwater Foundation), was honored by TIME magazine for educating the public about the importance of aquifers as a natural resource. Seacrest is one of seven "Heroes for the Planet" profiled in the August 2, 1999 issue of TIME. The Foundation has about 2,000 members. 1.4 million acres of rural land is devoured by development each year. *********************** Pam Murray, Coordinator Center for Grassland Studies and Center for Sustainable Agricultural Systems PO Box 830949 University of Nebraska Lincoln, NE 68583-0949 phone: 402-472-9383 fax: 402-472-4104 e-mail: pmurray1@unl.edu http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/cgs http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/csas To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 13:05:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14218 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08463 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08335 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu (bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.140]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA15430; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:22:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: bermuda-asy-12.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.140] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <382C76C1.1EEA@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:21:21 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet Subject: Re: Milling GMO (was HACCP) References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFFA@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 Wilson, Dale wrote: > With discrete seeds or grains, > sensitivity is limited by the number of kernels taken to be ground in the > sample. If you grind together 10,000 grains, then the sensitivity is on the > order of 1 in 10,000, or 0.01%. But when grain is sampled AFTER milling, > the sensitivity may be excessive (that is, in terms of percent GMO grain > needed to produce a positive reaction). Dale, are you telling us that the % sensitivity of the PCR changes from whole grain to flour? > It would not be surprising to mill > grain that tested negative, then find that the flour tests positive, due to > the presence of a minute percentage of GMO kernels in the bulk. Is this due to the distribution of dna fragments between the various parts of the grain, with relatively more in the flour than in the whole seed? I'm having trouble imaging why the sensitivity would be affected otherwise. Thanks for any insight. Loren To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 13:57:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15444 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09986 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:28:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09925 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05901 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EQ9BFMJM; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:25:50 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:18:41 -0700 Subject: Re: SustAg and liberalArts Message-ID: <19991112.110918.3502.0.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-5,15,18-19 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 Meredith R Reeves asked: My senior environmental studies seminar is proposing that sustainable ag be included in the env studies curriculm, and needs convincing evidence. Any sources, books, comments, etc would be appreciated. I think that it is a really interesting point of debate. Although not inappropriate in env. studies curriculm, wouldn't it be better as a subset of Agriculture? Or is that where conventional agriculture is already located? Seems to me that if it is put in environmental studies, it will be looked on as an interesting (but useless) sideline of biological science and won't be taken seriously as an economic sector like it should. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't have a chance in Agriculture because the School of Ariculture most likely depends heavily on grants from big chemical and seed companies. I'd rather see it in env. studies than nowhere. I look forward to reading other replys. This is just 2 cents' worth from someone who's been out of college a long time and only occassionally takes a non-credit class in something of particular interest. Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 15:36:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17887 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:36:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08132 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:07:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA08091 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id OAA05344; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:05:08 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma004540; Fri, 12 Nov 99 14:04:29 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:04:28 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFFC@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'loscott@envsci.rutgers.edu'" Cc: sanet Subject: RE: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:04:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 Loren, > Dale, are you telling us that the % sensitivity of the PCR > changes from whole grain to flour? > Is this due to the distribution of dna fragments between the > various parts of the grain, with relatively more in the flour > than in the whole seed? No, and no. Discrete seeds are either GMO or not. Assuming infinite sensitivity of the PCR itself (not really true, but not too far off), net assay sensitivity is purely a function of how many seeds are bulked, ground and mixed to make the working sample. This is because the probability of finding one or more GMO seeds in your sample is a function of sample size and true frequency of seeds in the lot. I can send you SAS code to calculate this if you want. On the other hand, if the whole lot is ground into infinitely small pieces (again, not a completely accurate assumption), even one GMO seed in a huge batch of grain would make the whole thing positive. Of course, this isn't quite true because PCR is not infinitely sensitive, flour particles are of finite size, and the "batch" is rarely well mixed. But things are expected to become a whole lot less predictable, and more sensitive in practice once the grain is ground. At the agronomy meetings last week I heard of a load of wheat ground into flour in Taiwan, which ended up testing positive for GMO. This was mighty peculiar, since there are no GMO wheat varieties on the market. Probably, a few grains of GMO corn were mixed in with the wheat. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 15:45:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18042 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12745 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:19:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12697 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014FAB1C@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:17:22 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 12 Nov 99 15:17:38 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 12 Nov 99 15:17:32 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:17:32 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: SustAg and liberal arts In-reply-to: <199911121707.MAA27733@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1021ABF90BB4@agecon.uga.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 > Dale wrote: > > > I envision a course called "Agriculture and civilization." The elements > > would include: > > 1. Hunting/gathering way of life > > 2. Probable origins of agriculture > > 3. Domestication of plants and animals > > 4. Elaboration of economies and empires > > 5. Agriculture and the phenomenon of modernity > > 6. Pushing the limits: current issues in agriculture > We do have a class similar to what you describe at the University of > Maryland. The class, Crops, Soils and Civilization, is taught by our soil > chemistry professor. > > Jennifer Butler > UMD, soil science That's a great start, Jennifer, but I think the idea is that such a class would be taught maybe in history or some other VERY mainstream liberal arts area. Well, maybe the basic science classes count as "liberal arts" too, and maybe this is where the U of MD class is taught (one of those not-so-scary science classes that science-phobes take to get a particular requirement out of the way). Here's another idea: Maybe such a class could also be an interdepartmental class. Most of the fields of study have something to do with agriculture in one way or another. It would be nice to see ag brought out as a topic in a number of them, not just the traditional Ag School fields (like soil science). That's my opinion. Anita _______________________________________________ Anita Graf Market Development of National Organic Products University of Georgia click on http://thehungersite.com/ to donate free food To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 16:11:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18537 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02264 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:47:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02157 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from purple.tmn.com (purple.tmn.com [205.177.137.5]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11388 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from tmn.com ([164.106.173.223]) by purple.tmn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00720; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:41:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382C7B38.B9E3721C@tmn.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:40:24 -0500 From: tabeles Reply-To: tabeles@tmn.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edna M Weigel CC: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: SustAg and liberalArts References: <19991112.110918.3502.0.eweigel@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 Hi edna the question is not why it should be included, but rather why it should not be included. Food and its production on land and sea is a critical environmental issue from the stand point that the management of production has been one of our major pollution problems, its consumption of fossil fuels/return has been in question, the shift in economies in developing countries to export oriented crops has changed ecologies and whole ecosystems......and the list goes on from use of pesticides to GMO's to farming practices to health issues including alergies and nutrition etc. if you check a number of introductory environmental science text books you will also find agriculture and food included. So you are right on target. Environmental science needs agriculture as a component of the curriculum. ES is NOT all biological sciences- it includes all disciplines-INCLUDING THE HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES AS WELL AS THE BIO/PHYSICAL SCIENCES. Thinking biology only or biological sciences is rather parochial and self serving in most instances. Dr. Tom P. Abeles former Associate Professor Environmental Science and consultant in agriculture, renewable resources and environmental management Edna M Weigel wrote: > Meredith R Reeves asked: > My senior environmental studies seminar is proposing that sustainable ag > be > included in the env studies curriculm, and needs convincing evidence. Any > sources, books, comments, etc would be appreciated. I think that it is a > really interesting point of debate. > Although not inappropriate in env. studies curriculm, wouldn't it > be better as a subset of Agriculture? Or is that where conventional > agriculture is already located? Seems to me that if it is put in > environmental studies, it will be looked on as an interesting (but > useless) sideline of biological science and won't be taken seriously as > an economic sector like it should. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't > have a chance in Agriculture because the School of Ariculture most likely > depends heavily on grants from big chemical and seed companies. I'd > rather see it in env. studies than nowhere. I look forward to reading > other replys. > This is just 2 cents' worth from someone who's been out of > college a long time and only occassionally takes a non-credit class in > something of particular interest. > Edna > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 16:14:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18585 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:14:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00307 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00154 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbox.caramail.com (mailbox1.caramail.com [195.68.99.61]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11368 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from caramail.com (www11.caramail.com [195.68.99.31]) by mailbox.caramail.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA27018 for sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:44:47 GMT Posted-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:44:47 GMT From: Thomas LOURY To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Message-ID: <942429600007143@caramail.com> X-Mailer: Caramail - www.caramail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: New to this List Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:42:52 GMT+1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_Caramail_007143942429600_ID" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --=_NextPart_Caramail_007143942429600_ID Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello ! I'm Thomas, from France. I'm new to this list so I post a short introduction : I'm an agronomist, working as a civil servant in northern France. Sustainable agriculture is a big issue on this side of the Atlantic: -we are facing the post-BSE syndrom, and recently, we had a major crisis in poultry, linked with dioxine. -there's more and more concern about GMOs (should there be a moratorium, are there any environmental/health risks...etc), and public awareness is growing fastly. -market for organic farming products is exploding. The EU is launching a seven years program for agriculture. It supports sustainable practices, and sustainability is now part of every international negotiation, including WTO millenium round. Thought it would be interesting to read first-hand comments on sustainable production systems, and debates going on in this field in the US... For now I found all I read from you all really interesting. Au revoir ! ______________________________________________________ Bo=eete aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com --=_NextPart_Caramail_007143942429600_ID-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 16:15:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18614 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02282 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:47:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02212 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-123.rain.org [198.68.144.123]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 45EFA61771; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:45:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <010f01bf2d4e$cde81020$7b9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Wilson, Dale" , Cc: References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFFA@vela.phibred.com> Subject: Re: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:45:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 Dale I don't understand are u saying that there are no longer pure Non GMO corn from your company . how does the GMO corn get mix up with the non GMO corn? are you saying to Klaus that your company can no longer sale Non GMOs. so folks trying to buy non GMO's can no longer buy from your company unless they take some GMO's mix in the deal. is this just one variety or all your seed stock? maybe I don't understand. Does this mean there are no Pioneer Hi-Bred's that are not contaminated. and can you explain this story below does this means that gowers that do not want GMO's can not buy from Pioneer ? how could this happen? Swiss soiled seed prompts tolerance question by Ingeborg Furst Nature Biotechnology, Volume 17 / July 1999 Page 629 On July 1, the Swiss government's tolerance standard for genetic purity of food comes into effect. Switzerland is the first country in Europe to set a limit for genetic contamination, but current controversy over genetically contaminated corn seeds highlights the urgent EU-wide need for such a standard for crops. In May, it was discovered by the Swiss Department of Agriculture (Budesamt fur Landwirtschaft; Bern) and the district president of Baden-Wurtlemberg (Tubingen, Germany) that Pioneer Hi-Bred's (Des Moines, IA) nongenetically modified corn seed varieties, Ulla and Benicia, actually contained novel genes from a variety of corn genetically modified to be resistant to the corn borer, Bacillus thuringiensis. Contamination of the seeds, which were harvested in the United States, was "probably caused by stray pollen during the growing season," says Ulrich Schmidt, managing director of Pioneer in Buxtehude, Germany, which represents the grain manufacturer in Switzerland. It is likely that incorporation of pollen from GM varieties into Ulla and Benicia occurred this way because "Pioneer does not offer a commercial GM variety of Ulla or Benicia." Before the contamination was discovered, Pioneer had sold enough Ulla and Benicia seeds to sow 400 hectares (roughly 0.5% of total corn cultivation in Switzerland), about 200 hectares of which had already been planted. Estimates of the amount of genetic contamination of non-GM DNA by GM DNA vary between 0.1 and 0.5%-- respectively below the limit set in both countries for contamination resulting from physical mixing of varieties. Under German and Swiss seed market laws, this "technical" contamination with seed from weed and other varieties can be as high as 3% and 5%, respectively. But because there are no tolerance standards set for genetic purity, the contaminated Pioneer seeds are not approved for release into the environment, and planting therefore infringes the Swiss environment conservation law (Umweltschutzgesetz), as well as violating the German gene technology law (Gentechnikgesetz). As a result, the Swiss Department of Agriculture (Bundesamt fur Landwirtschaft, Bern) has prohibited the import and trade of contaminated Ulla and Benicia and has ordered the destruction of any already sown. However, Pioneer and the entire grain industry are not able to guarantee the genetic purity of their conventional non-GM varieties, says Schmidt. "Genetic inserts are in the nature of things," agrees Rainer Linneweber, spokesperson for Novartis Seed (Bad Salzuflen, Germany). "Despite our high-level quality management and our ISO certification, even a 100% [technical] purity for conventional seed is utopian," he adds. But although the Swiss government has now set a 1% tolerance standard for genetic contamination of food, such a standard for crops remains absent. In the meantime, both Switzerland and Germany have analyzed the contaminated seed: The Swiss Department of Agriculture could detect by PCR the presence but not the amount of DNA sequences from GM corn varieties. But analysis ordered by the Baden-Wurttemberg district has called two specific GM varieties into question &endash; one from Pioneer and one from another unnamed grain manufacturer, according to Grit Puchan, spokesperson for the Baden-Wurttemberg district. "We still need to clarify whether or not these GM-corn seed varieties have been granted marketing approval in the EU and subsequently in Germany," says Puchan. If they have, the release of their contaminants would already be approved under the existing EU 90/220 directive. In this case, Pioneer must simply label the seeds accordingly to satisfy German authorities, says Edgar Muschketat, spokesperson for the Berlin-based Robert-Koch-Institut, which approves the release of GMOs into the environment. But this question is irrelevant, according to Hans-Georg Dederer, jurist at the Institute for Public Law at the University of Bonn, who says a loophole in the law means that genetically contaminated seeds need no special approval under 90/220. "A crop genetically modified by stray pollen is not a product within the meaning of 90/220, because 'product' implies a willful preparation," he says. Meanwhile, a "witch hunt-like atmosphere" reigns in Switzerland, says Klaus Ammann, director of the Botanic Garden at the University of Bern and member of the Commission for Biosafety (Kommission fur biologische Sicherheit). But although some corn fields have been destroyed by fire or herbicides, many farmers (mainly in western Switzerland) refuse to destroy the corn until Pioneer and the Swiss government agree to compensate them. In addition, the Swiss farmers' association (Schweizerischer Bauernverband) is deciding whether to file a class action lawsuit against Pioneer (via the Swiss seed importer), and Pioneer is considering halting sales via the Swiss seed importer to farmers in Switzerland. As Nature Biotechnology was going to press, the Swiss seed importer Eric Schweizer Samen AG agreed to pay farmers 700 Swiss Francs per hectare. ? check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson, Dale To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 6:04 AM Subject: Milling GMO (was HACCP) > Hello Klaus, > > > and one thing, YOUR company should think about (at least a > > bit). yesterday our director came back from the annual meeting > > of the directors of the main german agricultural research > > institutes. at the end of the meeting they made an excursion > > to the largest mill of the largest german milling company for > > grain and corn (kampfmeyer). as it turned out, they test EVERY > > batch by pcr in double-blind analysis in two labs for GMO's. the > > ceo clearly told them, that they would BY NO MEANS be able to > > mill a GM variety, as the public would plainly avoid their > > products after a scandal for at least the usual span a consumer > > would remember (about 3 months) and that would mean their end. > > and no matter how WTO would decide, they simply would not be > > able to use such batches because they would upset their clients. > > and that would also be valid for corn meal (they also do produce). > > Yes, this is clearly the issue of the day (year?). In fact, The Crop > Science Society is planning a symposium for our meeting next year in > Minneapolis. At least in division C4 (Seeds). Our C4 symposium on GM seed > production and testing issues will probably be one of a collage of about > three sessions. The others will deal with grain and education, I guess. > > The technical GMO issues in milling grain have to do with tolerances, > sampling, and testing. PCR is extremely sensitive. Most forms of these > tests simply give a yes-or-no answer. With discrete seeds or grains, > sensitivity is limited by the number of kernels taken to be ground in the > sample. If you grind together 10,000 grains, then the sensitivity is on the > order of 1 in 10,000, or 0.01%. But when grain is sampled AFTER milling, > the sensitivity may be excessive (that is, in terms of percent GMO grain > needed to produce a positive reaction). It would not be surprising to mill > grain that tested negative, then find that the flour tests positive, due to > the presence of a minute percentage of GMO kernels in the bulk. > > The practical matter is that European public officials must decide on > tolerances. Trying to stick to zero will paralyze the system. I have heard > that the officials are dithering on this issue because of conflicting > political pressures. > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 16:21:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18704 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00993 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00858 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from enviroag2 ([208.141.36.83]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 300 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:51:00 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991112145226.00804d30@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mrobles@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:52:26 -0600 To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Marcos Robles" Subject: public recognition programs for landowners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 I am looking for public recognition programs (including registries, stewardship awards, etc.) that public or private organizations have initiated to distinguish and honor private landowners whose management practices are beneficial to wildlife. So far, I am aware of three private sector programs: The Nature Conservancy, Friends of the Minnesota Valley (The Minnesota Heritage Registry Program), and the Minnesota Alliance for Conservation and Resource Management (River-Friendly Farmer). I am looking for examples that are applicable to the Midwest. This information will be used in a resource document that will list financial incentives available to Midwest farmers for wildlife enhancement or biodiversity preservation on their land. I would be happy to share the information I collect with any interested parties. thanks, marcos To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 16:51:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19302 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16228 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:15:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f304.hotmail.com [207.82.251.217]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16171 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14730 invoked by uid 0); 12 Nov 1999 21:12:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19991112211242.14729.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.173.73.87 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:12:42 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.173.73.87] From: "J. S." To: kir139@yahoo.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Commercial Chicken Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:12:42 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 Along this line---I know some people who are helping with a hulless barley feed study for poultry and the stories they could tell you about the lack of decent treatment of the birds that goes on would turn your stomach. A man who just slits their throats part way and doesn't use the stungun b/c it doesn't work right and shocks him is just the mildest. > >Not to fan the fire, but no-one has mentioned the way commercial chickens >are handled. I >must offer my caveat that this is not my area of expertise, but the word on >MY street is >that the chicken can still be processed as long as there are no more than 3 >open sores on >its body. I'm sure there's more such stories. > >Kirsten >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 17:53:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20409 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02707 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:27:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02686 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:26:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id QAA04998; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:24:55 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma004875; Fri, 12 Nov 99 16:24:48 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:24:48 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C70219FFFE@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Sal'" , Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:24:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 Sal, > Dale I don't understand are u saying that there are no > longer pure Non GMO corn from your company. This thread is beginning to sound like the chlorpyrifos thread! In real life "zero" almost never literally means zero. It means "undetectable." Because measurement techniques keep advancing, "zero" is a (rapidly) moving target. Just as modern chromatography has made possible the detection of pesticide residues at absurdly low levels, PCR has made the detection of single molecules of DNA possible, at least, in principle. > how does the GMO corn get mix up with the non GMO corn? In July and August the cornbelt is blanketed with a gigantic cloud of corn pollen. Most of the pollen falls in the same field, but small amounts go everywhere. Some of the pollen blows into seed production fields, producing off-type seed (spurious hybrids). Hybrid corn seed has never been pure. The old timers did drive-by growouts in the winter to test the purity of their seed. The lot had to be pretty bizarre looking to fail that. Then came careful examination of about 120 plants in winter grow-outs and/or protein electrophoresis (usually only on 100 seeds). This approximates current practice, giving a limit of detection of roughly 1 seed in a 100. But PCR can be way, way, way more sensitive. None of this is of any practical consequence. It is an esthetic matter. > are you saying to Klaus that your company can no longer sale > Non GMOs. No one can, if you use a test that is extraordinarily sensitive. We are doing the best we can, and working hard on this problem. I don't think it ever occurred to us (not to me anyway) that anyone would care if they got a few GMO seeds in their bag of conventional hybrid. > Does this mean there are no Pioneer Hi-Bred's > that are not contaminated. Most companies have carryover seed produced a few years ago they can sell to customers who need very low levels of GMO contamination. As for new production, there are ways to achieve stringent levels of purity (maybe as low as 0.01%), but it will be expensive. Most customers won't need that, and won't be willing to pay for that. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 21:44:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23218 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25019 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:15:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25008 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 20:13:26 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991112195954.00806a50@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:59:54 -0600 To: Subject: New to this List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA25011 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 Greeting Thomas and welcome to our little discussion group. We are a diverse lot from many different places in the world and of many different backgrounds and opinions. The more places and viewpoints we have represented in the group, the more fully we all can understand our world. Welcome Aboard. Mike Miller >Subject: New to this List >Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:42:52 GMT+1 > >Hello ! > >I'm Thomas, from France. > >I'm new to this list so I post a short introduction : > >I'm an agronomist, working as a civil servant in northern >France. > >Sustainable agriculture is a big issue on this side of >the Atlantic: >-we are facing the post-BSE syndrom, and recently, we had a >major crisis in poultry, linked with dioxine. >-there's more and more concern about GMOs (should there be >a moratorium, are there any environmental/health >risks...etc), and public awareness is growing fastly. >-market for organic farming products is exploding. > >The EU is launching a seven years program for >agriculture. It supports sustainable practices, and >sustainability is now part of every international >negotiation, including WTO millenium round. > >Thought it would be interesting to read first-hand >comments on sustainable production systems, and debates >going on in this field in the US... > >For now I found all I read from you all really >interesting. > >Au revoir ! > > > >______________________________________________________ >Boîte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 21:45:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23224 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28689 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:22:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from tully.jetstream.net (tully.jetstream.net [207.23.175.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28632 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.23.187.179] (usr2-146.jetstream.net [207.23.187.146]) by tully.jetstream.net (8.8.7/SCO5) with ESMTP id SAA01381 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:20:27 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rkneen@jetstream.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:28:06 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Rebecca Kneen Subject: RE: HACCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA28636 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 Hi everyone - We are in the final stages of putting together the *world's only* (so far as we know) on-farm, certified organic microbrewery. As a "food" producer, we come under the Canadian Food Inspection Agency - the same people who inspect processing plants, slaughterhouses etc. HACCP is not part of the regulations yet, but will be, and we had to draw up a plan to answer HACCP issues. While the process was useful (reminders about how to keep things clean), I have grave concerns about its purpose. Once upon a time in Canada, back when we still had Ag Reps from the Ministry of Agriculture, we also had food inspectors. _They_ visited farms, processing plants etc., and ensured that we were producing safely. They understood microbiology and production processes (as well as human limitations), and they helped us create safe and useable workplaces. They gave us standards to meet, helped us create safer systems, and gave the public some assurance that their food was safe. With HACCP, all we have are pieces of paper, which say "Yeah, we thought about it, here's what we thought, and isn't it nice." There's no guarantee that what we put on the paper is real. With the advent of HACCP, federal inspectors are being phased out, in favour of a self-regulating system. I have been calling my federal inspector, telling them how useful they are, and that I personally don't believe that the best plans in the world are any substitute for on-the-ground inspection. We need to be telling the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, as well as our local gov't reps, to save the food inspection system. The last thing Canada needs is to impose the dangerous American model of self-inspection and regulation. On top of that, HACCP is no substitute for "touch and sniff" inspections: all the Critical Control Points in the world won't help if what's coming in is already contaminated - by pesticides, herbicides or disease. HACCP does nothing to ensure that cows with tumors are rejected by the slaughterhouse. All it does is create mountains of paperwork and no way to verify any of it. I am thoroughly in favour of inspectors - food and certification. They keep us honest, keep us in touch with others in similar situations, and alert us to places we might be getting sloppy. They keep track of the whole system, and at their best, are an aid to farmers and a reassurance to consumers. At their worst, they are a hindrance and an annoyance - but not as much as having the whole industry disappear (see Britain's beef... a friend tells me that calves go for £1 over there now). rebecca Kneen =============================================== "Growing food for others is a sacred trust. The exchange of nourishing food from the grower to the consumer should be a sacrament, not a commodity exchange. Herein lies the spirituality of farming." Alex McGregor, farmer =============================================== Brian MacIsaac & Rebecca Kneen Crannog Ales - the first farm-integrated organic brewery in the world! S6, C38, RR#1 Sorrento BC V0E 2W0 Phone: 250-675-4122 Fax: 250-675-4866 email =============================================== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 21:45:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23230 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28738 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:22:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from tully.jetstream.net (tully.jetstream.net [207.23.175.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28654 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.23.187.179] (usr2-146.jetstream.net [207.23.187.146]) by tully.jetstream.net (8.8.7/SCO5) with ESMTP id SAA01385 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:20:30 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rkneen@jetstream.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:28:04 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Rebecca Kneen Subject: RE: HACCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 Hi - another thought about HACCP and Health Inspectors. Our local Health Inspector, who has said to me that " organic people don't want to use the proper chemicals to be sanitary." and "You guys [sic] are all afraid of chlorine," wants us to chlorinate our well, use anti-bacterial hand soap, and grow vegetables on our septic field. He has also been responsible for approving "dry wells" (also known as soap boxes - a pit filled with gravel with no field) in the shale around our lake -- resulting in the contamination of the lake with fecal coliform. The same coliform which makes him want our well chlorinated. That's right, it makes no sense. We are trying really hard to create a safe and hygenic system, but I don't want to contaminate our well or our land, nor do I want to create superbugs. How can we restore a measure of common sense to our food system? And what was the old line, "every child should eat a peck of dirt before they are three"? Rebecca =============================================== "Growing food for others is a sacred trust. The exchange of nourishing food from the grower to the consumer should be a sacrament, not a commodity exchange. Herein lies the spirituality of farming." Alex McGregor, farmer =============================================== Brian MacIsaac & Rebecca Kneen Crannog Ales - the first farm-integrated organic brewery in the world! S6, C38, RR#1 Sorrento BC V0E 2W0 Phone: 250-675-4122 Fax: 250-675-4866 email =============================================== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 11 23:34:59 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05048 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15336 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:16:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15326 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id LAA14781; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:57:04 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id MAA08877; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:40:13 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911120440.MAA08877@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 12 Nov 99 11:05:23 Subject: RE: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 Roberto: >> From the descriptions, it sounds to me as if HACCP, like the >> California organic law, is really about small organic farm >> elimination, wrapped in technical mumbo-jumbo... Dale: >It sounds to me like HACCP is mainly commonsense sanitation. This is >important for human health and safety. Farmers who can't or won't do this, >should produce something other than fruits and vegetables. That was exactly my point: small farmers like single-family operations who can't do the extremely detailed documentation or afford the bureaucratic procedures required will be driven out of farming. I am suggesting this could be the real purpose of that law. Consider the process: Analyse your entire operation from beginning to end analyse each element in detail establish procedures for contamination control. Critical procedures must be precisely defined and measurable. Implement systems of *documented* monitoring at each critical point Develop mandatory procedures With proper guidance, farmers would probably observe the necessary hygienic procedures automatically. But to meet all the documentary requirements, if you're a husband-and-wife team, you'd need consultants, and documentors, and all kinds of bottom-feeders (as Sal puts it). But even when the full documentation is done, which big corporate farms can easily afford, you're no nearer to actual hygienic conditions. (An exploited worker, after going to the toilet, can fill up the checklist and sign whatever has to be signed, but you are no nearer to ensuring that he actually washed his hands, especially if he hates the boss.) Perhaps something like a certifier will again be needed to certify that every worker washed his hands after going to the toilet. And a supercertifier to ensure that all the certifiers are doing their jobs. In a big corporate farm where workers have to be locked in (remember that fire?), you can establish all the procedures you need to keep certifiers busy and rich, but your product will probably be not as healthful and hygienic as an uncertified farm run by a family which has stuck to farming because they love the work. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 23:23:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24181 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA27239 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:54:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27147 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.67]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:52:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991112213839.007e9720@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:38:39 -0600 To: Subject: RE: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 >Subject: RE: Milling GMO (was HACCP) >Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:24:42 -0600 Dale said >This thread is beginning to sound like the chlorpyrifos thread! In real Dale, I agree that there is a common theme in these two discussions. The European market is saying No to GMO's and people are saying no to chemical trespass of chlorpyrifos in there bodies. But is anybody in industry listening? It is not a question of amount of the contamination. It is a question of whether we have sovereignty over our own bodies. Do we have the right to know about and select the type of food we eat or to resist the chemical contamination of our bodies or have these rights been ceded to corporations and the WTO and NAFTA trade tribunals? I don't recall ever voting on this issue. This is especially ironic in the USA where the trend here of late has been to be to expand the individual's right to veto the decisions of their duly elected representives. Reference the recently argument before the Supreme Court concerning the distribution of student fees by the elected student government and the attempts by republican to ban duly elected union officials from spending their funds in a manner that would most benefit their members. The real crux of the matter is do "We the people" control the government and the markets or is the machinery of government and the market now conrolled by "corporate persons"? Mike Miller >customers who need very low levels of GMO contamination. As for new >production, there are ways to achieve stringent levels of purity (maybe as >low as 0.01%), but it will be expensive. Most customers won't need that, >and won't be willing to pay for that. PS. I suspect that most counties who object to GMO contamination will not pay more for normal wheat and corn from the United States. In this grain glutted market, they can buy their grains from counties who have chosen not to adopt GMO's. I guess that is what free market competion is all about - unless it can be stifled with the WTO, MAI et al. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 12 23:58:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24443 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA25304 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:33:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25201 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.82] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:30:36 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:29:19 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5937.991112@acnet.net> To: Loren Muldowney CC: "Wilson, Dale" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, rverzola@phil.gn.apc.org, mritchie@iatp.org Subject: Re[2]: chlorpyrifos In-reply-To: <382C61D5.1E45@envsci.rutgers.edu> References: <382C61D5.1E45@envsci.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 Hi Loren, As I understood Dale, he considers finding chloropyrifos in the urine of practically everybody to be a statement of a fact that reflects a status quo so universal that he doesn't question it (and why would he he, if he lives within the framework of that world; yea, within the house of those that are responsible for this "achievement", this new world order. Reversing this trend is simply not a consideration for Dale, and I don't say that critically. (I though his recent post answering Sal's questions was both nice and well done). Dale has come a long way and will continue to make progress, while others of us do the job of limiting (and hopefully cleaning up) the "collateral effects" that splice 'em, dice 'em and gas 'em ag science / ag business have brought us. Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** Loren> Wilson, Dale wrote: >> >> Loren, Roberto, and Mark, >> First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive >> modern quantitative analysis really is. Loren> Dale, I am trying to rephrase your comment to ensure that I fully Loren> understand your position before responding. Loren> Are you suggesting that our disagreement with your position can only Loren> have its basis in a misunderstanding of analytic chemistry? Loren> If not, please clarify, because that's what I think you said. Loren> If so, you have misunderstood Loren> our statements and made a response unrelated to our positions. Loren> I'll try this again. We were discussing finding chloropyrifos in the Loren> urine of practically everybody. Loren> Loren wrote: >> Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is >> disregarded as being in the category of things we call >> "a problem." Loren> Deciding whether to label something a "problem" or not is a matter of Loren> policy, not chemistry. Loren> Roberto wrote: >> I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination >> quite incredible. Loren> The analytic chemistry showed the unambiguous presence of chloropyrifos Loren> in the urine or 80-90% of the people checked. Loren> Mark wrote: >> Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of >> both property rights and human rights. Loren> Mark does not wish to allow this chemical trespass and feels that his Loren> rights have been violated. Loren> To these above quotes, Dale responds: >> Loren, Roberto, and Mark, >> First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive >> modern quantitative analysis really is. Loren> None of us said anything about analytic chemistry. We were all making Loren> the point that we find it a problem when manufactured substances which Loren> we have never used and in fact actively avoid contact with, nevertheless Loren> can be found in our bodies, as evidenced by being excreted by our Loren> bodies. Loren> Sombody manufactures chloropyrifos. They sell it to person B. Now Loren> person B "owns" it. As it is applied, person B seems to be allowing it Loren> to run amok, and many of us are not pleased with that. Loren> Person B is not allowed to store his lawnmower in my garage. His shoes Loren> are not under my bed; his livestock may not graze in my front yard, nor Loren> may his dog crap there. No shoes, no lawnmowers, not a single grazing Loren> animal, not one little turd. Zero. I don't have to prove that it would Loren> injure me seriously to have B doing any of these things. I do not want Loren> these things on my property, and that reason is sufficient. Loren> That is also the case for chloropyrifos. I did not buy it. I do not Loren> benefit from it. I don't want it in my personal space or on my property Loren> for any reason, in any quantity. If it's there, then person B still Loren> "owns" it and he is trespassing with his stuff. He should have to keep Loren> better track of his belongings. If it is not possible to ascertain which Loren> "person B" has been careless with his purchase, then it is fine with me Loren> if the legal responsibility for the substance still belongs to the Loren> manufacturer. Loren> I still haven't said anything about analytic chemistry. This subject Loren> matter is not in the realm of analytic chemistry. Loren> I have taken the opportunity to have 150 college students decide whether Loren> chloropyrifos in the urine is or is not a "problem," by giving the Loren> choice to them on an exam. They may choose either, provided only that Loren> they supply their reasoning. I'll let you know what they think when I'm Loren> done grading this mountain of papers. >> At a sufficiently low level of >> contamination, this controversy devolves into theoretical hair-splitting. Loren> What does that mean? The "threshold" concept has never been validated, Loren> and it is probably not valid. It is the responsibliity of all modelers Loren> (for example those who estimate toxicological risk) to know the Loren> limitations of the model and ALL of the assumptions built into the Loren> model. The threshold assumption is built in to all the models. It's Loren> use, however, is not a matter of analytic chemistry, it is merely a Loren> policy choice, and we all know that POLICY and CHEMISTRY are not the Loren> same thing. Or do we all know it? Must we eternally suffer this mutant Loren> dialogue, where every time somebody doesn't like where the policy Loren> conversation is headed, a random comment about "sound science" is Loren> inserted in the hope of deflecting the conclusion? >> Second, society subjects all of us to all kinds of risks. Loren> Name some. This conversation is improved by specificity. How is this Loren> statement relevant to the discussion of chloropyrifos in the urine of Loren> people who never use chloropyrifos? >> Ordinary risks we accept without second thought are a lot bigger than >> pesticide risk (as far as I can tell). Loren> Name some. Explain the relevance of this statement. Loren> Which non-zero risks do "we" accept with absolutely zero benefit to us? Loren> I cannot think of any. Loren> Or do we "accept" them because we have no choice? Do we accept them Loren> because we do not know about them? Is our conscious, informed choice Loren> implied by your use of the word "accept?" Loren> Are you and I are the same person in your "we" scenario? >> Third, we constantly ingest all manner of toxic substances that occur >> naturally. Loren> How many of these compounds are large, chlorinated molecules? Loren> Which ones were humans never exposed to before 1900? Which ones do we Loren> ingest without knowing that we are eating something? How is this Loren> statement relevant to chloropyrifos in my body? >> To a large extent, the function of kidneys and liver is to >> detoxify and/or eliminate these things. Loren> Yes, these organs have co-evolved with other life forms on this planet Loren> for many millions of years, and can, to some extent, allow the organism Loren> to escape harm from naturally occurring toxins evolved over the same Loren> time scale. UNLIKE CHLOROPYRIFOS. Loren> And that's not analytic chemistry either, it's evolutionary biology, Loren> which apparently is not a permitted subject matter in some parts of this Loren> country. I wonder if my email will arrive with "the E word" deleted? Loren> Loren Loren> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command Loren> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command Loren> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". Loren> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command Loren> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". Loren> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: Loren> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 06:03:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26513 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 06:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA26140 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 05:41:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25995 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 05:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 219; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:46:45 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991112190340.009a9100@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:03:40 -0600 To: mmiller@pcsia.com, From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991112033117.03abd820@mail.iatp.org> References: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 on the honeybees canola, try Marla S. Spivak Assistant Professor Apiculture/Social Insects Address: 219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave University of Minnesota St. Paul, MN 55108 phone: (612) 624-4798 fax: (612) 625-5299 E-mail: spiva001@maroon.tc.umn.edu At 03:31 AM 11/12/99 -0600, Mark Ritchie wrote: >I have heard reports of problems around the GE canola in Canada. Anyone >know more about this? > > > >At 11:14 PM 11/11/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: >>Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly illustrates >>that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on non-target >>species. >> >>Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing corn >>pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot of >>pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee >>species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT toxin >>corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have negative >>effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller >> >>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 >>>To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, >>> >>>From: Charles Benbrook >>>Subject: Monarch Meeting >>> >>> Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the >>>outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on Monarchs >>>and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky Goldburg >>>of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to >>> >>>http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html >>> >>>Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer their >>>views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois >>>extension page, go to -- >>> >>>http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html >>> >>> We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and related >>>developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target >>>beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, thus >>>far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also post it >>>or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would >>>like posted, please contact me by private email. >>> >>> chuck >>> >>> >>> >>>Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site >www.ecologic-ipm.com >>>Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net >>>5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net >>>Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 >>>208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >> >Mark Ritchie, President >Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy >2105 First Ave. South >Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA >612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) >mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 09:19:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27429 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23590 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:58:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from purple.tmn.com (purple.tmn.com [205.177.137.5]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23579 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from tmn.com ([164.106.173.223]) by purple.tmn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02123; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:53:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382D6CF4.82420AB1@tmn.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:51:48 -0500 From: tabeles Reply-To: tabeles@tmn.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Caution re: SustAg and liberal arts References: <1021ABF90BB4@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 We must not forget that agriculture and agrian issues have always been a part of liberal studies, from religion to biology- and yes, the sciences are one of the dimension of liberal studies, even though the intellectual community had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table, CP Snow's challenge not withstanding. The issue of sustainability, in general and susag, in particular, globally, has been on the table, officially, since earth day and perhaps the rio conference. It has definitely been part of most issues from international trade to human rights and world health. As one of the dominant economic sectors from the village to the multinationals, it does not escape attention in many courses outside of ag schools What one must realize is that The Academy is not a platform for political or social advocacy except in the wider campus community. Yes, one does realize that texts and classes do have biases; and one must allow for the lagging nature of the academy and understand that it does, slowly, and painfully, initiate a self correcting course. One must carefully examine the function of liberal studies, in general, and the role of liberal studies in education as it has been manifest over time. And we must also understand what the roll of the university has been and is, currently, particularly as the various communities try to bend its purpose to their needs of the moment, regardless of how noble or righteous it may appear to those advocates. We must realize that there is a spectrum of "truth" within the susag community which, at times, has lead to more than collegial disagreement. Additionally, the global community is far from any agreement regarding the broader issues of sustainability or even to the "facts" much less their "interpretation". In fact, some academic research seems to indicate that issues may not all be as they seem (hmm, something Shakespearean here). The ponderousness of The Academy, though frustrating, at times, does provide a base for stability. thoughts? tom abeles "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote, in part: > I think the idea is that such a > class would be taught maybe in history or some other VERY mainstream > liberal arts area. Well, maybe the basic science classes count as > "liberal arts" too, and maybe this is where the U of MD class is > taught (one of those not-so-scary science classes that science-phobes > take to get a particular requirement out of the way). Here's > another idea: Maybe such a class could also be an interdepartmental > class. Most of the fields of study have something to do with > agriculture in one way or another. It would be nice to see ag > brought out as a topic in a number of them, not just the traditional > Ag School fields (like soil science). That's my opinion. > > Anita > > _______________________________________________ > Anita Graf > Market Development of National Organic Products > University of Georgia > > click on http://thehungersite.com/ to donate free food > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 10:24:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27788 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27362 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:59:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27309 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-123.rain.org [198.68.144.123]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE11F61743; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 06:57:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004201bf2de7$60d79660$7b9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Douglas Hinds" , "Loren Muldowney" Cc: "Wilson, Dale" , , , References: <382C61D5.1E45@envsci.rutgers.edu> <5937.991112@acnet.net> Subject: Re: Re[2]: chlorpyrifos Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 06:57:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 ok ok I do not have a college education so to me I have to make things simple. I understand Dale when he said "The practical matter is that European public officials must decide on tolerances. Trying to stick to zero will paralyze the system. I have heard that the officials are dithering on this issue because of conflicting political pressures. but as I understand these GMOs spread like cancer. if you have .001 one year soon you will have .01 then .1 then 1% and so on. so you have to have zero tolerance or your place on earth will have no non GMO soon like us here in the USA. now we are lucky we can test and find the smallest amount of these GMOs. so if a bird doesn't shit it out or a bee does not carry the pollen or a boat or truck does not have a few grains left of the floor or someone does not bring it in in their luggage etc. we can maybe stop the cancer from spreading to the whole body. in just a short time already we expect contamination in the USA. remember this was made in a lab. it is not like the killer bee that is a gene from mom and dad this is a gene added and in a short time already expected to contaminate .001 man next year they will tell us the .01 in expectable and on and on till there is no more non GMOS. it is a cancer that was made in a lab spread by companies and all with the help of the USDA. I guess this is what the folks met in the public comments "the genie has been let out of the bottle or no use closing the barn door after the cows got out" labels will not do any good. every will that does not want to be one of the white mice will need a test kit. no only will these genes go with the corn but as you can see they will contaminate the wheat and weeds and on and on. some of the genes like fish gene in veg. and scorpion poison in veg. will soon be spreading out to the whole earth. they are changing life on earth as we know it. I know the killer bee is a NON GMO but watching it spread and seeing that the USDA can not stop it (these bees just killed a man down the street from me) all the way from South America to Ca. they will not be about to stop the living GMOs they are making in the lab today. the point of all this you places that don't have any GMO;s test test test and don't except any percent of the cancer because a little bit will spread. and you poor organic growers in the USA the USDA has killed off organic growing . forget about it. they make a rule no GMOs allowed for organic growers then release on the public GMO's that the organic farmer has no control over and soon no more organic . they make a law and kill u with the law they make. they have not only taken over the word organic but have destroyed it. there is no one to protect organic growing only burden those trying to protect life on earth while letting the contaminators prosper. Sal, I think you are right: many seed companies (in the U.S. at least) can no longer guarantee 100% non-GMO seeds, unless they grow their seeds in countries like ours (the Philippines) or maybe Brazil, which had not planted any GMO plants yet. Consider it this way: seed companies usually guarantee 98% purity of their hybrid varieties. This means, they know that some cross-pollination and contamination occurs among their fields. If they are using the same level of care for their GMO/non-GMO isolation, this means that their non-GMO seeds are around 98% non-GMO too. If they take extra care isolating their non-GMO seeds to avoid GMO contamination, they might reach 99% or even 99.9% or even 99.99% but the contamination will still be there... And that 0.01% GMO-seed in the non-GMO batch will later grow and create more GMO seeds and contaminate the fields again. If the worldwide trend against any GMO-contamination continues, U.S. corn and soya farmers are in trouble... Those U.S. states (are there any?) and countries who have so far delayed GMO commercialization will be in a much better position to guarantee 100% GMO-free seeds and products. > > Reversing this trend is simply not a consideration for Dale, and I > don't say that critically. (I though his recent post answering Sal's > questions was both nice and well done). > > Dale has come a long way and will continue to make progress, while > others of us do the job of limiting (and hopefully cleaning up) the > "collateral effects" that splice 'em, dice 'em and gas 'em ag science > / ag business have brought us. Douglas I am afraid all the kings horses and all the kings men can not put humpty dumpy together again. and for you places on earth that have not partaken of this GMO thing I hope you can keep it that way and to do so you need 0% tolerances. to me it would seem any more than that and you have the cancer. I see now why the burned the fields. I see now why farmers burn the fields and I hope they got it in time. only destroying GMOs now will save the earth from this Genetically mutilated Genes cancer. IMHO as a dumb farmer burn baby burn. > Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. > Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil > (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) > Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico > dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > Loren> Wilson, Dale wrote: > >> > >> Loren, Roberto, and Mark, > >> First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive > >> modern quantitative analysis really is. > > Loren> Dale, I am trying to rephrase your comment to ensure that I fully > Loren> understand your position before responding. > > Loren> Are you suggesting that our disagreement with your position can only > Loren> have its basis in a misunderstanding of analytic chemistry? > > Loren> If not, please clarify, because that's what I think you said. > > Loren> If so, you have misunderstood > Loren> our statements and made a response unrelated to our positions. > > Loren> I'll try this again. We were discussing finding chloropyrifos in the > Loren> urine of practically everybody. > > Loren> Loren wrote: > >> Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself is > >> disregarded as being in the category of things we call > >> "a problem." > > Loren> Deciding whether to label something a "problem" or not is a matter of > Loren> policy, not chemistry. > > Loren> Roberto wrote: > >> I find such cavalier attitude towards chemical contamination > >> quite incredible. > > Loren> The analytic chemistry showed the unambiguous presence of chloropyrifos > Loren> in the urine or 80-90% of the people checked. > > Loren> Mark wrote: > >> Anything showing up in our bodies uninvited is a violation of > >> both property rights and human rights. > > Loren> Mark does not wish to allow this chemical trespass and feels that his > Loren> rights have been violated. > > Loren> To these above quotes, Dale responds: > > >> Loren, Roberto, and Mark, > >> First, I don't think you folks have an appreciation of just how sensitive > >> modern quantitative analysis really is. > > Loren> None of us said anything about analytic chemistry. We were all making > Loren> the point that we find it a problem when manufactured substances which > Loren> we have never used and in fact actively avoid contact with, nevertheless > Loren> can be found in our bodies, as evidenced by being excreted by our > Loren> bodies. > > Loren> Sombody manufactures chloropyrifos. They sell it to person B. Now > Loren> person B "owns" it. As it is applied, person B seems to be allowing it > Loren> to run amok, and many of us are not pleased with that. > > Loren> Person B is not allowed to store his lawnmower in my garage. His shoes > Loren> are not under my bed; his livestock may not graze in my front yard, nor > Loren> may his dog crap there. No shoes, no lawnmowers, not a single grazing > Loren> animal, not one little turd. Zero. I don't have to prove that it would > Loren> injure me seriously to have B doing any of these things. I do not want > Loren> these things on my property, and that reason is sufficient. > > Loren> That is also the case for chloropyrifos. I did not buy it. I do not > Loren> benefit from it. I don't want it in my personal space or on my property > Loren> for any reason, in any quantity. If it's there, then person B still > Loren> "owns" it and he is trespassing with his stuff. He should have to keep > Loren> better track of his belongings. If it is not possible to ascertain which > Loren> "person B" has been careless with his purchase, then it is fine with me > Loren> if the legal responsibility for the substance still belongs to the > Loren> manufacturer. > > Loren> I still haven't said anything about analytic chemistry. This subject > Loren> matter is not in the realm of analytic chemistry. > > Loren> I have taken the opportunity to have 150 college students decide whether > Loren> chloropyrifos in the urine is or is not a "problem," by giving the > Loren> choice to them on an exam. They may choose either, provided only that > Loren> they supply their reasoning. I'll let you know what they think when I'm > Loren> done grading this mountain of papers. > > >> At a sufficiently low level of > >> contamination, this controversy devolves into theoretical hair-splitting. > > Loren> What does that mean? The "threshold" concept has never been validated, > Loren> and it is probably not valid. It is the responsibliity of all modelers > Loren> (for example those who estimate toxicological risk) to know the > Loren> limitations of the model and ALL of the assumptions built into the > Loren> model. The threshold assumption is built in to all the models. It's > Loren> use, however, is not a matter of analytic chemistry, it is merely a > Loren> policy choice, and we all know that POLICY and CHEMISTRY are not the > Loren> same thing. Or do we all know it? Must we eternally suffer this mutant > Loren> dialogue, where every time somebody doesn't like where the policy > Loren> conversation is headed, a random comment about "sound science" is > Loren> inserted in the hope of deflecting the conclusion? > > >> Second, society subjects all of us to all kinds of risks. > > Loren> Name some. This conversation is improved by specificity. How is this > Loren> statement relevant to the discussion of chloropyrifos in the urine of > Loren> people who never use chloropyrifos? > > >> Ordinary risks we accept without second thought are a lot bigger than > >> pesticide risk (as far as I can tell). > > Loren> Name some. Explain the relevance of this statement. > Loren> Which non-zero risks do "we" accept with absolutely zero benefit to us? > Loren> I cannot think of any. > Loren> Or do we "accept" them because we have no choice? Do we accept them > Loren> because we do not know about them? Is our conscious, informed choice > Loren> implied by your use of the word "accept?" > Loren> Are you and I are the same person in your "we" scenario? > > >> Third, we constantly ingest all manner of toxic substances that occur > >> naturally. > > Loren> How many of these compounds are large, chlorinated molecules? > Loren> Which ones were humans never exposed to before 1900? Which ones do we > Loren> ingest without knowing that we are eating something? How is this > Loren> statement relevant to chloropyrifos in my body? > > >> To a large extent, the function of kidneys and liver is to > >> detoxify and/or eliminate these things. > > Loren> Yes, these organs have co-evolved with other life forms on this planet > Loren> for many millions of years, and can, to some extent, allow the organism > Loren> to escape harm from naturally occurring toxins evolved over the same > Loren> time scale. UNLIKE CHLOROPYRIFOS. > > Loren> And that's not analytic chemistry either, it's evolutionary biology, > Loren> which apparently is not a permitted subject matter in some parts of this > Loren> country. I wonder if my email will arrive with "the E word" deleted? > > Loren> Loren > > Loren> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > Loren> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > Loren> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > Loren> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > Loren> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > Loren> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > Loren> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 11:41:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28419 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09875 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:13:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09788 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from Rudzub (cust70.nrvcis1.cha2.netrover.com [205.209.31.70]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27479 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:10:50 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: rudzub@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: Message-ID: <000201bf2df1$f398aa20$461fd1cd@Rudzub> From: "Rudolf Zubler" To: Subject: Re: sustAg in classroom Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:53:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2DC5.58ACF380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2DC5.58ACF380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, my name is Rudy, I'm a commercial dairy and crop farmer in Ontario. I strongly agree with John Lozier that we should start talking about = simply "agriculture" instead of all these special definitions that = confuse everyone and rebuke some. Agriculture in the true sense of the = meaning is sust. ecol. org. etc. anyway, the OTHER STUFF like huge hog = facilities, monocultures of annual crops, gmos etc SHOULD NEED EXTRA = LABELS.=20 We have to get over the idea that things "in tune with nature" are = alternatives, and all this crazy stuff about dominating her is = conventional. Sustainable, organic, eco-farming is simply NORMAL PRACTICE, the other = way around is INDUSTRIAL FOOD PRODUCTION ! Just like being an "environmental activist" is not about going to demos = on weekends, but simply including the ecological impact assessment in = every decision we make every day (doesn't have to be fancy!). Let's quit talking about it, just go out and DO IT ! But to get back on the subject of teaching: what this culture needs most = is basics - get gardening and housekeeping ("household management" if = you like it fancy) into the curriculum from Kindergarten to grade 12, 1 = or 2 hours a week. These are basic life skills that need training like = any other. Of course, further studies into the relationships of ag. and = society are needed too, but first give everyone an understanding of = "what the heck's it all about". This would also improve society in = general. Best regards Rudy Zubler ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2DC5.58ACF380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone,
my name is Rudy, I'm a commercial = dairy and crop=20 farmer in Ontario.
I strongly agree with John Lozier = that we should=20 start talking about simply  "agriculture" instead of all = these=20 special definitions that confuse everyone and rebuke some. Agriculture = in the=20 true sense of the meaning is sust. ecol. org. etc. anyway, the OTHER = STUFF like=20 huge hog facilities, monocultures of annual crops, gmos etc SHOULD NEED = EXTRA=20 LABELS.
We have to get over the idea that = things=20 "in tune with  nature" are alternatives, and all this = crazy stuff=20 about dominating her is conventional.
Sustainable, organic, = eco-farming  is=20 simply NORMAL PRACTICE, the other way around is INDUSTRIAL FOOD = PRODUCTION=20 !
Just like being an = "environmental=20 activist" is not about going to demos  on weekends, but simply = including the ecological impact assessment in every decision we make = every day=20 (doesn't have to be fancy!).
Let's quit talking about it, just go = out and DO=20 IT !
But to get back on the subject of = teaching: what=20 this culture needs most is basics - get gardening and housekeeping=20 ("household management" if you like it fancy) into the = curriculum=20 from  Kindergarten to grade 12, 1 or 2 hours a week. These are = basic life=20 skills that need training like any other. Of course, further studies = into the=20 relationships of ag. and society are needed too, but first give everyone = an=20 understanding of "what the heck's it all about". This would = also=20 improve society in general.
Best regards    Rudy=20 Zubler
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2DC5.58ACF380-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 11:48:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28457 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17194 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:24:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17161 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-140.rain.org [198.68.144.140]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F10F6176C; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:21:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf2df3$1425fd00$8c9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , , "Mark Ritchie" References: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> <3.0.5.32.19991112190340.009a9100@mail.iatp.org> Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:21:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 I know two thing most all Beneficials need to live are pollen and nectar. have any test be done with GMO corn and beneficial predators like Orius insidious the Minute Pirate Bug ? will the pollen kill them and can they spread it? check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Ritchie To: ; Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? > on the honeybees canola, try > > > Marla S. Spivak > Assistant Professor > Apiculture/Social Insects > > Address: 219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave > University of Minnesota > St. Paul, MN 55108 > phone: (612) 624-4798 > fax: (612) 625-5299 > E-mail: spiva001@maroon.tc.umn.edu > > > > > At 03:31 AM 11/12/99 -0600, Mark Ritchie wrote: > >I have heard reports of problems around the GE canola in Canada. Anyone > >know more about this? > > > > > > > >At 11:14 PM 11/11/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > >>Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly illustrates > >>that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on non-target > >>species. > >> > >>Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing corn > >>pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot of > >>pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee > >>species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT toxin > >>corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have negative > >>effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller > >> > >>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 > >>>To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, > >>> > >>>From: Charles Benbrook > >>>Subject: Monarch Meeting > >>> > >>> Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the > >>>outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on Monarchs > >>>and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky Goldburg > >>>of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to > >>> > >>>http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html > >>> > >>>Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer their > >>>views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois > >>>extension page, go to -- > >>> > >>>http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html > >>> > >>> We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and related > >>>developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target > >>>beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, thus > >>>far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also post it > >>>or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would > >>>like posted, please contact me by private email. > >>> > >>> chuck > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site > >www.ecologic-ipm.com > >>>Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net > >>>5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > >>>Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > >>>208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > >> > >> > >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >> > >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >> > >Mark Ritchie, President > >Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > >2105 First Ave. South > >Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > >612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > >mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > Mark Ritchie, President > Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > 2105 First Ave. South > Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Nov 13 03:37:11 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25747 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA10570 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:17:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10486 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id QAA17992; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:18:47 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA15749; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:42:06 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911130842.QAA15749@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 13 Nov 99 13:19:33 Subject: Re: Milling GMO (was HACCP) To: sals@rain.org Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 288 Sal, I think you are right: many seed companies (in the U.S. at least) can no longer guarantee 100% non-GMO seeds, unless they grow their seeds in countries like ours (the Philippines) or maybe Brazil, which had not planted any GMO plants yet. Consider it this way: seed companies usually guarantee 98% purity of their hybrid varieties. This means, they know that some cross-pollination and contamination occurs among their fields. If they are using the same level of care for their GMO/non-GMO isolation, this means that their non-GMO seeds are around 98% non-GMO too. If they take extra care isolating their non-GMO seeds to avoid GMO contamination, they might reach 99% or even 99.9% or even 99.99% but the contamination will still be there... And that 0.01% GMO-seed in the non-GMO batch will later grow and create more GMO seeds and contaminate the fields again. If the worldwide trend against any GMO-contamination continues, U.S. corn and soya farmers are in trouble... Those U.S. states (are there any?) and countries who have so far delayed GMO commercialization will be in a much better position to guarantee 100% GMO-free seeds and products. Roberto >Dale I don't understand are u saying that there are no longer pure Non GMO >corn from your company . >how does the GMO corn get mix up with the non GMO corn? are you saying to >Klaus that your company can no longer sale Non GMOs. so folks trying to >buy non GMO's can no longer buy from your company unless they take some >GMO's mix in the deal. is this just one variety or all your seed stock? >maybe I don't understand. Does this mean there are no Pioneer Hi-Bred's >that are not contaminated. and can you explain this story below does this >means that gowers that do not want GMO's can not buy from Pioneer ? how >could this happen? > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Nov 13 03:37:20 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25751 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA08977 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:11:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA08971 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id QAA17993 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:18:48 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA15750; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:42:06 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911130842.QAA15750@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 13 Nov 99 13:22:08 Subject: CaMV and HIV To: rverzola@phil.gn.apc.org Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 Below is worrying news about the Bt corn - HIV connection. Bt corn and most other GMO-plants use the CaMV promoter. Roberto Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:06:14 -0500 From: joe cummins To: BAN GE BAN Message-ID: <3824DE96.7FAAEA57@julian.uwo.ca> Subject: B-GE: Exchange between HIV and CaMV November 6, 1999 e-mail; jcummins@julian.uwo.ca "CaMV and HIV Interact in Virus Replication" This years John Innes Centre and Sainsbury Laboratory Annual Report 1998/1999 has a report by R.Noad,R.Viallana, D. Turner, K. Moffat and S. Covey which shows that the relication of cauliflower mosaic virus (CaMV) and Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) have interchangeable components. The RNase H enzyme is an essential component for DNA replication from RNA in both viruses (HIV is a retrovirus whose infectious component is RNA while CaMV is a para Retrovirus related to Hepatitis B and other Hepadna virus whose infectious form is DNA). The researchers from Innes-Sainsbury found that RNase H from HIV functioned to replace CaMV Rnase H ands allowed the chimera virus replicated in plants. When the RNA viral chromosome strand is copied to make DNA the RNase H must remove the copied RNA to allow the DNA strand to make a complementary copy to form double helix DNA. The two viruses (HIV and CaMV) are closely enough related to have exchangeable parts. If the two viruses should meet in nature they could recombine to form chimeric viruses with potentially devastating properties. Furthermore, the CaMV promoter used in essentially all GM crops is clearly shown to form a structure hyperactive in DNA recombination. HIV sequences functioned in the CaMV promoter. It is clear that HIV and CaMV exchange components and genes in the laboratory. It is clear that , given contact between the two viruses, exchange to form chimeric virus in nature will take place. The assumption that CaMV genes are rapidly destroyed and eliminated in mammalian digestion has not been verified in the laboratory. Wounded plants can exchange cellular fluids with wounded mammals and pollen deeply penetrates the airways of mammals. Was the world dealing with rational scientists the risk versus benefit equation would have shifted against the use of CaMV genes in crops planted to many million acres. Many thanks to Mark Griffiths for pointing out the important report. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 15:08:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29891 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15127 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:44:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15035 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-127.rain.org [198.68.144.127]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 004A961748; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:42:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601bf2e0f$2f89a440$7f9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Sal" , , , "Mark Ritchie" References: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> <3.0.5.32.19991112190340.009a9100@mail.iatp.org> <000801bf2df3$1425fd00$8c9044c6@rain.org> Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:42:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 290 .I guess it will not kill these Beneficials like Orius as it only kills Monarch type insects from what I understand. Still a few organic farmers used to plant a little corn just to keep beneficials around now that may not be a good idea. the pollen does not kill them but they spread the GMOs to non GMO plants. so much to learn about these new GMO plants. what will it kill, how does it spread,what is the effect in the end product and on and on so many questions? Im sure the USDA has all the answers after all they released it and are releasing more and more of these GMO's. it is so sad because I know where I live we are not big corn growers but I see little patches here and there I think just for the pollen. to bad the pollen the seed the whole plant have the DNA . so much more heavy than just a spray used when needed. The plant becomes the insecticide. the whole plant and every part of it. and it is living and reproducing and mutating and crossing with wild plants and non GMO plants... like the killer bee but man made. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sal To: ; ; Mark Ritchie Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:21 AM Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? > I know two thing most all Beneficials need to live are pollen and nectar. > have any test be done with GMO corn and beneficial predators like Orius > insidious the Minute Pirate Bug ? will the pollen kill them and can they > spread it? . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Ritchie > To: ; > Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? > > > > on the honeybees canola, try > > > > > > Marla S. Spivak > > Assistant Professor > > Apiculture/Social Insects > > > > Address: 219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave > > University of Minnesota > > St. Paul, MN 55108 > > phone: (612) 624-4798 > > fax: (612) 625-5299 > > E-mail: spiva001@maroon.tc.umn.edu > > > > > > > > > > At 03:31 AM 11/12/99 -0600, Mark Ritchie wrote: > > >I have heard reports of problems around the GE canola in Canada. Anyone > > >know more about this? > > > > > > > > > > > >At 11:14 PM 11/11/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > > >>Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly > illustrates > > >>that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on > non-target > > >>species. > > >> > > >>Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing corn > > >>pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot > of > > >>pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee > > >>species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT toxin > > >>corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have negative > > >>effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller > > >> > > >>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 > > >>>To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, > > >>> > > >>>From: Charles Benbrook > > >>>Subject: Monarch Meeting > > >>> > > >>> Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the > > >>>outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on > Monarchs > > >>>and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky > Goldburg > > >>>of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to > > >>> > > >>>http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html > > >>> > > >>>Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer > their > > >>>views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of Illinois > > >>>extension page, go to -- > > >>> > > >>>http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html > > >>> > > >>> We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and > related > > >>>developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target > > >>>beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, > thus > > >>>far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also > post it > > >>>or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they would > > >>>like posted, please contact me by private email. > > >>> > > >>> chuck > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site > > >www.ecologic-ipm.com > > >>>Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net > > >>>5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > > >>>Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > > >>>208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > >> > > >> > > >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > command > > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >> > > >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > >> > > >Mark Ritchie, President > > >Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > > >2105 First Ave. South > > >Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > > >612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > > >mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > Mark Ritchie, President > > Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > > 2105 First Ave. South > > Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > > 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > > mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 16:53:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00783 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16303 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:30:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16228 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-131.rain.org [198.68.144.131]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A2F461772; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf2e1d$ed5d30a0$839044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Sal" , , , "Mark Ritchie" References: <3.0.6.32.19991111231444.007d97e0@pcsia.com> <3.0.5.32.19991112190340.009a9100@mail.iatp.org> <000801bf2df3$1425fd00$8c9044c6@rain.org> <000601bf2e0f$2f89a440$7f9044c6@rain.org> Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:27:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 291 Back to the question Sorry Mark . corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have > negative > > > >>effects when it is fed to the bee brood? I'm sorry I got off the line . you mean will it harm the bees when they are in their little grub like state. hope not if so maybe no one should use BT. bees are having a hard enough time. > .> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:21 AM > Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? > > > > I know two thing most all Beneficials need to live are pollen and nectar. > > have any test be done with GMO corn and beneficial predators like Orius > > insidious the Minute Pirate Bug ? will the pollen kill them and can they > > spread it? > . > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mark Ritchie > > To: ; > > Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 5:03 PM > > Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? > > > > > > > on the honeybees canola, try > > > > > > > > > Marla S. Spivak > > > Assistant Professor > > > Apiculture/Social Insects > > > > > > Address: 219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave > > > University of Minnesota > > > St. Paul, MN 55108 > > > phone: (612) 624-4798 > > > fax: (612) 625-5299 > > > E-mail: spiva001@maroon.tc.umn.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 03:31 AM 11/12/99 -0600, Mark Ritchie wrote: > > > >I have heard reports of problems around the GE canola in Canada. Anyone > > > >know more about this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 11:14 PM 11/11/99 -0600, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > > > >>Thank you very much for posting this information. It clearly > > illustrates > > > >>that more work is needed to determine the effects of BT corn on > > non-target > > > >>species. > > > >> > > > >>Has any work been done to determine what effect BT toxin containing > corn > > > >>pollen has on honey bee and other pollinator populations? I see a lot > > of > > > >>pollen being collected from my corn plants by various bee/bumblebee > > > >>species. Are there safety concerns about selling honey from a BT > toxin > > > >>corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin containing pollen have > negative > > > >>effects when it is fed to the bee brood? Mike Miller > > > >> > > > >>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:23:59 -0800 > > > >>>To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, > > > >>> > > > >>>From: Charles Benbrook > > > >>>Subject: Monarch Meeting > > > >>> > > > >>> Several viewpoints and press stories have now been circulated on the > > > >>>outcome of the November 2, 1999 Chicago meeting on new research on > > Monarchs > > > >>>and Bt corn. We have posted substantive meeting reports by Becky > > Goldburg > > > >>>of EDF, and Lincoln P. Brower and Myron P. Zalucki. For these, go to > > > >>> > > > >>>http://www.biotech-info.net/butterflies_btcorn.html > > > >>> > > > >>>Univ. of Illinois IPM specialists Kevin Steffey and Mike Gray offer > > their > > > >>>views on the Monarch meeting in a new posting on the Univ. of > Illinois > > > >>>extension page, go to -- > > > >>> > > > >>>http://spectre.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/199924d.html > > > >>> > > > >>> We will continue to add reports and stories on this meeting and > > related > > > >>>developments shedding light on the impact of Bt pollen on non-target > > > >>>beneficials, of which the Monarch is only the most visible example, > > thus > > > >>>far. As research starts to show up in the literature, we will also > > post it > > > >>>or links to it. If anyone has any data on this subject that they > would > > > >>>like posted, please contact me by private email. > > > >>> > > > >>> chuck > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site > > > >www.ecologic-ipm.com > > > >>>Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet > www.biotech-info.net > > > >>>5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > > > >>>Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > > > >>>208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > > command > > > >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > >> > > > >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > > >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > >> > > > >Mark Ritchie, President > > > >Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > > > >2105 First Ave. South > > > >Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > > > >612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > > > >mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > > command > > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > > > Mark Ritchie, President > > > Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > > > 2105 First Ave. South > > > Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA > > > 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) > > > mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > command > > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 18:08:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01208 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27888 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:41:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27860 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.33] [199.175.106.33] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11mlp3-0006dHC for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:39:05 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:42:43 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 292 Mike Miller, You wrote: "It is not a question of amount of the contamination. It is a question of whether we have sovereignty over our own bodies. Do we have the right to know about and select the type of food we eat or to resist the chemical contamination of our bodies or have these rights been ceded to corporations and the WTO and NAFTA trade tribunals?" I don't mean to disagree with what you're saying but I would add that the problem is us. We already have the choice. Why are we buying processed foods, grown and prepared somewhere we've never been by someone we don't know. Stop it and you won't have to worry about labelling and contents. Grow and buy whole foods from as near as possible. Get to know the producers and the local processors. You don't have to worry about Nestles and Kraft, Gerber's and Heinz, Frito-Lays and Unilever. If you really want to have control over what goes into your bodies, you won't wait for governments and corporations to legislate your safety and comfort. Each of us has to pick out our own comfort level. There was a time when we went a lot farther toward being self-sufficient then we do now (you know, like making soap from our own rended beef tallow or using oil from dogfish (a small shark) livers in the coal oil lamps (it didn't work very well), and living without electricity. But we still grind organically grown wheat for our bread and can, freeze, and dehydrate much of the food we grow and trade with our neighbours. Our wine is homemade from blackberries and grapes. Our freezers have chicken, pork, lamb, and beef, none of which ever came near the commercial meat production industry. There's a lot of canned salmon in the pantry. In the cellar are fresh apples of several varieties, pears, and Asian apple-pears and the apples will stay fresh until March. There are dried plums, apples, apricots, pears, tomatoes, carrots, sweet peppers and hot chilis. There are leeks, brussel sprouts, and celery still growing outdoors, with broccoli, chard, lettuce, radicchio, parsley, and other greens in the greenhouse. We are not certified organic and neither are our neighbours but no chemical of any kind has come on this property in the 16 years we've lived here. We are part of the fight against the chemical corporations and their effort to control the world's food supply. But the truth is we don't really need them. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 22:05:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03110 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20048 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:42:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20044 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:42:40 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.70]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:40:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991113202700.007d1760@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:27:00 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 293 Sal said >Back to the question Sorry Mark . corn pollen exposed hive? Does BT toxin >containing pollen have negative effects when it is fed to the bee brood? >I'm sorry I got off the line . you mean will it harm the bees when they are >in their little grub like state. hope not if so maybe no one should use BT. >bees are having a hard enough time. What I am thinking about here with the bees comes from reading Jaycox's book Beekeeping in the Midwest which lists the Bacillus thuringiensis in his "relatively non-toxic group" of pesticides. What I don't know for sure is what form of the Bt toxin is expressed by the corn pollen. Is it the protein crystal associated with the Bt spores or is it the transformed delta-endotoxin. If it is the delta-endotoxin, then it would not have to be transformed in the larvae's gut and the posion could then potentially be more active in a variety of non-target species than the standard protein crystal/digestion mode of action. See below. I don't know the answers so this why I am asking the questions. Has anybody done real tests on this and not just assumed the problem away because they already "know" Bt only affects lepidoptera? Mike Miller "Mode of Action When conditions for bacterial growth are not optimal B.t., like many bacteria, forms spores. Spores are the dormant stage of the bacterial life cycle, when the organism waits for better growing conditions. Unlike many other bacteria, when B.t. creates spores it also creates a protein crystal. This crystal is the toxic component of B.t.. After the insect ingests B.t., the crystal is dissolved in the insect's alkaline gut. Then the insect's digestive enzymes break down the crystal structure and activate B.t.'s insecticidal component, called the delta-endotoxin. The delta-endotoxin binds to the cells lining the midgut membrane and creates pores in the membrane, upsetting the gut's ion balance. The insect soon stops feeding and starves to death. If the insect is not susceptible to the direct action of the delta-endotoxin, death occurs after B.t. starts vegetative growth inside the insect's gut. The spore germinates after the gut membrane is broken; it then reproduces and makes more spores. This body-wide infection eventually kills the insect.8 Factors Affecting Selectivity One of B.t.'s most desirable characteristic is its selectivity; only certain insects are susceptible to the delta-endotoxin. Scientists have identified at least 29 different crystals and delta-endotoxins.5 Each is effective against specific insects. Each variety of B.t. can produce one or more of these toxins.7 Alkaline (basic; pH greater than 7) solutions activate the delta-endotoxin, and different varieties may require different pHs.9 Certain enzymes must also be present in the insect's gut to break the crystal into its toxic elements.8 In addition, certain cell characteristics in the insect gut encourage binding of the endotoxin and subsequent pore formation.7 The age of the insect is also a factor, the younger larvae being more susceptible than older larvae.8" Reference : Bacillus thuringiensis (B.t.). Carrie Swadener. Journal of Pesticide Reform, Volume 14, Number 3, Fall 1994. Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, Eugene, OR. actors Affecting Selectivity To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 22:27:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03212 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02703 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:07:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cyberus.ca (mail.cyberus.ca [209.195.95.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02698 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (ip68.ts17-3.mn.dialup.ottawa.cyberus.ca [209.195.65.68]) by cyberus.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3/Cyberus Online Inc.) with ESMTP id WAA06075; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:05:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911140305.WAA06075@cyberus.ca> From: "Gord Hawkes" To: , "Rebecca Kneen" Subject: Re: HACCP Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:43:06 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 Well said Rebecca! I couldn't agree more and thank you for putting it so well. Now, of equal interest, can you provide a bit more info on that organic microbrewery - sounds absolutely intriguing! Gord Hawkes Log Cabin Orchard Osgoode, On Canada http://www.cyberus.ca/~logcabinorchard ---------- > From: Rebecca Kneen > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE: HACCP > Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 9:28 PM > > Hi everyone - > > We are in the final stages of putting together the *world's only* (so > far as we know) on-farm, certified organic microbrewery. As a "food" > producer, we come under the Canadian Food Inspection Agency - the > same people who inspect processing plants, slaughterhouses etc. HACCP > is not part of the regulations yet, but will be, and we had to draw > up a plan to answer HACCP issues. While the process was useful > (reminders about how to keep things clean), I have grave concerns > about its purpose. > > Once upon a time in Canada, back when we still had Ag Reps from the > Ministry of Agriculture, we also had food inspectors. _They_ visited > farms, processing plants etc., and ensured that we were producing > safely. They understood microbiology and production processes (as > well as human limitations), and they helped us create safe and > useable workplaces. They gave us standards to meet, helped us create > safer systems, and gave the public some assurance that their food was > safe. With HACCP, all we have are pieces of paper, which say "Yeah, > we thought about it, here's what we thought, and isn't it nice." > There's no guarantee that what we put on the paper is real. With the > advent of HACCP, federal inspectors are being phased out, in favour > of a self-regulating system. > > I have been calling my federal inspector, telling them how useful > they are, and that I personally don't believe that the best plans in > the world are any substitute for on-the-ground inspection. We need to > be telling the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, as > well as our local gov't reps, to save the food inspection system. The > last thing Canada needs is to impose the dangerous American model of > self-inspection and regulation. > > On top of that, HACCP is no substitute for "touch and sniff" > inspections: all the Critical Control Points in the world won't help > if what's coming in is already contaminated - by pesticides, > herbicides or disease. HACCP does nothing to ensure that cows with > tumors are rejected by the slaughterhouse. All it does is create > mountains of paperwork and no way to verify any of it. > > I am thoroughly in favour of inspectors - food and certification. > They keep us honest, keep us in touch with others in similar > situations, and alert us to places we might be getting sloppy. They > keep track of the whole system, and at their best, are an aid to > farmers and a reassurance to consumers. At their worst, they are a > hindrance and an annoyance - but not as much as having the whole > industry disappear (see Britain's beef... a friend tells me that > calves go for £1 over there now). > > rebecca Kneen > =============================================== > "Growing food for others is a sacred trust. The exchange of > nourishing food from the grower to the consumer should be a > sacrament, not a commodity exchange. Herein lies the > spirituality of farming." Alex McGregor, farmer > =============================================== > Brian MacIsaac & Rebecca Kneen > Crannog Ales - the first farm-integrated organic brewery in the world! > S6, C38, RR#1 Sorrento BC V0E 2W0 > Phone: 250-675-4122 > Fax: 250-675-4866 > email > =============================================== > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 22:43:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03274 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA12763 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:25:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12754 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (77.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.107]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA00340 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:22:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911140322.VAA00340@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: Subject: RE: YWK - Money or Human Lives Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:25:04 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 295 "YEAR 2000: IS SAFETY & PREPAREDNESS THE OBJECTIVE OR STABILITY IN THE FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY? Most Americans are under the impression that everything is OK with regards to the Year 2000 technology problem. According to the Center for Y2K & Society:" Oh, for cyring out loud! The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Seems to me that the real problem with Y2K is not that there might be small computer failures and maybe even a (very) temporary loss of electricity or whatever. The real problem is with people who WANT to see chaos. They drool at the thought of A. being able to say "I told you so.", and B. being able to really justify all the extra preparations and hundreds (thousands?) of dollars they spent stocking up on food, ammo, generators, batteries, etc. Hey, wake up! The world will not collapse, farmers will still grow food, trucks will still deliver food, and groceries will still sell it. We will still have electricity, natural gas, or a campfire with which to cook it. The only ones that will get hurt are those who go running through the streets in a panic, and those who are unfortunate enough to be in their way. What chaos there is will not be caused by the Y2K bug, but by nut cases and those who want to have an excuse to riot. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 13 23:02:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03427 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23580 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:45:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23575 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:45:17 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.69]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:43:12 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991113212938.00808b50@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:29:38 -0600 To: Subject: Food Self Sufficiency Goals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 296 Don, it's strange but you are describing exactly what I am working towards here on the farm. Obviouly, some items still have to be purchased at the store until plans are implemented, crops and trees grown, etc. and some items like milk production are just not feasible to do on my scale, not to mention a little complication called Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. However, I have access to 125 acres of crop land and woods, a large pond, tractors, guns etc. so I can live a hunter/gather/gardener life style for now. But what about older and/or more disabled people or people not living on a farm or not flush with money to buy organically produced food? When I lived in the big city, you had to drive an hour just to get to a corn field and most apartments in the city hardly had grass let alone a community garden (but they should for food as well as community building reasons). These are the people who really need access to food quality information about food in the regular distribution channels and even more protection from chemical trespass. We as a society must protect the weakest amoung our citizens if we are to have any claim to moral legitimacy. I think we have to do both: grow more food for ourselves as you suggest and insist on food quality information on the goods we purchase. Mike, now with aching hands, Miller >> >>You wrote: >>"It is not a question of amount of the contamination. It is a question of >>whether we have sovereignty over our own bodies. Do we have the right to >>know about and select the type of food we eat or to resist the chemical >>contamination of our bodies or have these rights been ceded to corporations >>and the WTO and NAFTA trade tribunals?" >> >>I don't mean to disagree with what you're saying but I would add that the >>problem is us. We already have the choice. Why are we buying processed >>foods, grown and prepared somewhere we've never been by someone we don't >>know. Stop it and you won't have to worry about labelling and contents. >>Grow and buy whole foods from as near as possible. Get to know the >>producers and the local processors. You don't have to worry about Nestles >>and Kraft, Gerber's and Heinz, Frito-Lays and Unilever. If you really want >>to have control over what goes into your bodies, you won't wait for >>governments and corporations to legislate your safety and comfort. >> >>Each of us has to pick out our own comfort level. There was a time when we >>went a lot farther toward being self-sufficient then we do now (you know, >>like making soap from our own rended beef tallow or using oil from dogfish >>(a small shark) livers in the coal oil lamps (it didn't work very well), >>and living without electricity. But we still grind organically grown wheat >>for our bread and can, freeze, and dehydrate much of the food we grow and >>trade with our neighbours. Our wine is homemade from blackberries and >>grapes. Our freezers have chicken, pork, lamb, and beef, none of which >>ever came near the commercial meat production industry. There's a lot of >>canned salmon in the pantry. In the cellar are fresh apples of several >>varieties, pears, and Asian apple-pears and the apples will stay fresh >>until March. There are dried plums, apples, apricots, pears, tomatoes, >>carrots, sweet peppers and hot chilis. There are leeks, brussel sprouts, >>and celery still growing outdoors, with broccoli, chard, lettuce, >>radicchio, parsley, and other greens in the greenhouse. >> >>We are not certified organic and neither are our neighbours but no chemical >>of any kind has come on this property in the 16 years we've lived here. We >>are part of the fight against the chemical corporations and their effort to >>control the world's food supply. But the truth is we don't really need >>them. >> >>Don Maroc >>Vancouver Island, Canada >> >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Nov 14 00:24:38 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04223 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06392 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:02:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06350 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id NAA32251; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:14:09 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id NAA20192; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:17:29 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911140517.NAA20192@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 14 Nov 99 12:20:12 Subject: Re: To: maroc@islandnet.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 >I don't mean to disagree with what you're saying but I would add that the >problem is us. We already have the choice. Why are we buying processed >foods, grown and prepared somewhere we've never been by someone we don't >know. Stop it and you won't have to worry about labelling and contents. >Grow and buy whole foods from as near as possible. Get to know the Hi Don. I agree with everything else you said, except for "the problem is us". It is only partly true. The bigger problem is the chemical/industrial food industry, who use their immense economic power and hold over the government to make it extremely difficult for organic growers to flourish and for us to make the switch to organic. Sal's plight is a good example: as an organic grower, he is being taxed to death. The government then uses the taxes to subsidize the chemical firms. It is not only us. It is the system. They have successfully made chemical farming the "default" system. If you want to do otherwise, you have to go through all kinds of bureaucratic hulla-hoops, documentary mumbo-jumbo and pay all kinds of fees and taxes, while the chemical industry enjoys all kinds of subsidies, research grants, etc. We have to change not only "us", but also the rotten system. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Nov 14 00:27:00 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04234 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06405 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:02:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06395 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id NAA32252; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:14:09 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id NAA20191; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:17:28 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911140517.NAA20191@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 14 Nov 99 12:10:39 Subject: Re: Monarch Meeting/Honeybee Risk? To: mmiller@pcsia.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 >his "relatively non-toxic group" of pesticides. What I don't know for >sure is what form of the Bt toxin is expressed by the corn pollen. Is >it the protein crystal associated with the Bt spores or is it the >transformed delta-endotoxin. If it is the delta-endotoxin, then it >would not have to be transformed in the larvae's gut and the posion >could then potentially be more active in a variety of non-target >species than the standard protein crystal/digestion mode of action. Hello Mike. Bt corn expresses NOT the inactive crystalline poison which the Bt bacterium makes, but the semi-activated delta-endotoxin. The Bt gene in corn has also been modified to be 40 times or more stronger than the natural toxin. Because of these, your concerns are valid that the Bt corn toxin may cause unintended problems with other organisms. >Has anybody done real tests on this and not just assumed the problem >away because they already "know" Bt only affects lepidoptera? Monsanto, creater of Bt corn MON810, itself admits that its Bt corn produces the delta-endotoxin in semi-activated form. But the argument they use to support claims of safety are: 1. the toxin will only bind to a specific receptor present in the guts of some insects; the mammalian gut does not have such a receptor 2. they have tested the delta-endotoxin (but made with E.coli, not from Bt corn) with rats, and no harmful effects were observed; therefore, "the toxin is safe to mammals, as expected" 3. there is no similarity ("homology") between the Bt toxin and other known toxins or allergens A Novartis researcher fed broiler chicken with Bt corn (published 1998), and also found "no harmful effects". These are all the feeding studies so far with respect to Bt corn. None have been done on primates or human volunteers. The US FDA and EPA exempted Bt corn from thorough testing (that pesticides and drugs go through) because they considered Bt corn "substantially equivalent" to conventional corn; so if conventional corn need not go through such tests, neither should Bt corn, so goes their argument. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 02:29:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05026 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA09980 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09941 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04867; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA11675; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:55:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:55:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <199911140517.NAA20192@phil.gn.apc.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 299 On 14 Nov 1999, Roberto Verzola wrote: > >I don't mean to disagree with what you're saying but I would add that the > >problem is us. We already have the choice. Why are we buying processed > >foods, grown and prepared somewhere we've never been by someone we don't > >know. Stop it and you won't have to worry about labelling and contents. > >Grow and buy whole foods from as near as possible. Get to know the This is exactly what I have been saying over and over and over for years in sanet and in other lists and newsgroups. People can learn how to do this entirely from the Web and from selected books, mailing lists and newsgroups. Just look at the number of posts in misc.consumers.frugal-living and alt.permaculture for a clear indication of the public's interest in good health, nutrition, self-sufficiency, greenbuilding and growing your own food. > Hi Don. I agree with everything else you said, except for "the problem > is us". It is only partly true. The bigger problem is the > chemical/industrial food industry, who use their immense economic > power and hold over the government to make it extremely difficult for > organic growers to flourish and for us to make the switch to organic. > > Sal's plight is a good example: as an organic grower, he is being > taxed to death. The government then uses the taxes to subsidize the > chemical firms. You vote with your feet and wallet. Its a simple matter of diverting customers from supermarkets to Sal's farm. How? Make the public aware of the availability of locally grown products, introduce them to growers in their locale and let them know that there is a difference between Sal's and the supermarket's and that its affordable, especially in the long run because there are no hidden costs to them as taxpaying citizens (no pollution, agricultural subsidies, pesticide residues to put their health at risk) and that the benefits are numerous: clean nutritious food, long storage life, enhancement of the environment, enabling a skilled businessman to make a living and contribute positively to the community he lives in. > It is not only us. It is the system. They have successfully made > chemical farming the "default" system. If you want to do otherwise, > you have to go through all kinds of bureaucratic hulla-hoops, > documentary mumbo-jumbo and pay all kinds of fees and taxes, while the > chemical industry enjoys all kinds of subsidies, research grants, etc. > We have to change not only "us", but also the rotten system. It's mostly getting "us" to buy from small and large local and regional farmers whose farming methods are natural. "They" will change if we take the lead and set the example by producing quality products for increasing numbers of satisfied customers year after year, without subsidization, as our fields get greener and greener and as our customers lives are enhanced by doing business with us. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 09:57:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07276 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01233 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:35:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01200 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD22.mco.net [209.167.186.42]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28588 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:32:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382EC77A.A1D32159@real.on.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:30:18 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: YWK - Money or Human Lives References: <199911140322.VAA00340@mail.multipro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 It is November 14,1999, and I hesitate in even trying to respond to this message, at this late date. People believe what they are comfortable in believing. There is a segment of the population who, because of there beliefs, do want the world to collapse, because of Y2K, or something else. Their wants overcome reasoned judgment. The same happens to people like Mike, with his comments describing a "no big problem" scenario. Either Mike has read nothing other than what the press and governments have stroked us with, or he has researched the situation and has not been able to accept the likely possibilities. Mike disparages the people who have bought things to make themselves more secure for situations they may encounter. And he does this on a sustainable agriculture discussion group. Ironic, to say the least. Visit the US government General Accounting Office website. Read the US State Department reports on the likelihood of substantial world disruptions. The National Guard has some interesting things to say. But not many people have, or will. Too uncomfortable for most of us. We would rather go merrily along, doing what we like, and ignoring any evidence of possible grief ahead. Rather like the conventional agriculture community. What is about to happen over the next 18 months or so is going to happen, whether we like it or not. Denial is an option, just not a very intelligent one. Regards Gary Elliott Parkhill, ON mikerichardson wrote: > "YEAR 2000: IS SAFETY & PREPAREDNESS THE OBJECTIVE OR > STABILITY IN THE FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY? > > Most Americans are under the impression that > everything is OK with regards to the Year 2000 > technology problem. According to the Center for Y2K > & Society:" > > Oh, for cyring out loud! The sky is falling, the sky is falling! > > Seems to me that the real problem with Y2K is not that there might be small > computer failures and maybe even a (very) temporary loss of electricity or > whatever. The real problem is with people who WANT to see chaos. They > drool at the thought of A. being able to say "I told you so.", and B. being > able to really justify all the extra preparations and hundreds (thousands?) > of dollars they spent stocking up on food, ammo, generators, batteries, > etc. > > Hey, wake up! The world will not collapse, farmers will still grow food, > trucks will still deliver food, and groceries will still sell it. We will > still have electricity, natural gas, or a campfire with which to cook it. > The only ones that will get hurt are those who go running through the > streets in a panic, and those who are unfortunate enough to be in their > way. What chaos there is will not be caused by the Y2K bug, but by nut > cases and those who want to have an excuse to riot. > > Son of Richard > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 14:39:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09404 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05468 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:52:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05397 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [193.203.146.124] (dialup-0636.dublin.iol.ie [193.203.146.124]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA97151 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:49:44 GMT X-Sender: kmarsh@gpo.iol.ie Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199911140305.WAA06075@cyberus.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:54:47 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: kathryn marsh Subject: Re: HACCP Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 301 Had an interesting discussion yesterday with someone who didn't know who I was who had just applied for certification with us. Their first inspection had not only proved to them that they had very little to do to make the change (because they are good record keepers anyway they hadn't had a form filling problem) but had pointed out ways in which it is actually going to cost them less to farm organically than their present costs. Because they sell processed farm products directly to the public they had already done HACCP analysis but reckoned the organic inspection picked up a lot of points that HACCP had missed. So organic inspection with a really good inspector (and as it happens it was a really, really good inspector) can help you provide chemical free food that also passes the Averys of this world and saves you money as well kathryn To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 17:49:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12131 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10655 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:22:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web603.mail.yahoo.com (web603.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.167]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10597 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:22:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991114222008.28442.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.82.20] by web603.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:20:08 PST Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:20:08 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: Parade Magazine To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 302 Hi SANETEERS; Check out the Parade magazine in your sunday paper today. It is devoted to food issues. There is a short reference to CSAs and the idea of supporting your local farmer. It also gives the address of a brand new website on CSA's that Andy Clark's been working on for weeks. www.reeusda.gov/csa.html Don't blame Andy for the slight misstatement about USDA and CSA's. He tried to get the text of the statement changed with no luck. Good work, Andy Kate __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 21:00:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14309 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11968 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11954 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991115014025.PWJQ11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:40:25 -0800 Message-ID: <382F6661.9F9DB17A@home.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:48:17 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: paulowinia for alley cropping Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 I just rec'd some agroforestry materials from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service/USDA Forest Service. I requested these free publications thru the National Agroforestry Center. One of the pub's deals w/ "alley cropping"...lo and behold, one of the tree species listed is Paulowinia... must not be such a plague after all. billevans To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 21:51:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14938 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA13597 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:35:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13547 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:35:27 -0500 (EST) From: HLPizza@aol.com Received: from HLPizza@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.53c63449 (4230) for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.53c63449.2560cace@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:32:46 EST Subject: Sustainable Fisheries To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 As you probably know there are problems in the sea similar to those on land. May I direct you to a site that has a very handy and informative wallet card to help you decide what fish to buy. It identifies sustainable fisheries and those that are not. David http://www.equarium.org/efc/efc_oc/dngr_food_watch.asp To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 14 22:24:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15332 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01314 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:03:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from selene.surfsouth.com (IDENT:root@selene.surfsouth.com [205.139.60.187]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01305 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from paulowniatrees.com (02-ocil-028.dial.optilinkcomm.net [216.128.152.166]) by selene.surfsouth.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25100; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:01:30 -0500 Message-ID: <382F77BF.7CB0135B@paulowniatrees.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:02:24 -0500 From: David Drexler Organization: PaulowniaTrees.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: williamevans@home.com CC: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: paulowinia for alley cropping References: <382F6661.9F9DB17A@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 305 Greetings William The Paulownia is an excellent choice for alley cropping aka inter cropping. Paulownia is very deep rooted and has few upper level roots to interfere with crops. Paulownia draw nutrients and moisture from deep in the soil profile. Large leaves will raise the relative humidity during dry air days. Leaves are very nutritious and decompose rapidly into the upper soil thereby removing leached nutrients from deep in the ground and moving it back into the upper levels. Besides a valuable hardwood timber is produced in about 10 years. The Chinese have about 2.5 million hectares under this system using Paulownia Thanks for the info. David D. William Evans wrote: > I just rec'd some agroforestry materials from the USDA Natural > Resources Conservation Service/USDA Forest Service. I requested these > free publications thru the National Agroforestry Center. > One of the pub's deals w/ "alley cropping"...lo and behold, one of the > tree species listed is Paulowinia... must not be such a plague after > all. > billevans > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 03:34:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17673 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA03398 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:08:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03330 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:08:33 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.29c13f8d (4010) for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:05:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.29c13f8d.256118de@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:05:50 EST Subject: Self-sustainability, community food security To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 306 In a message dated 11/15/99 12:41:51 AM, owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu writes: <; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11889 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:36:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11865 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:36:49 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.66]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:34:41 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991115092059.007e1aa0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:20:59 -0600 To: Subject: paulowinia for alley cropping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 307 > I just rec'd some agroforestry materials from the USDA Natural >Resources Conservation Service/USDA Forest Service. I requested these >free publications thru the National Agroforestry Center. > One of the pub's deals w/ "alley cropping"...lo and behold, one of the >tree species listed is Paulowinia... must not be such a plague after >all. Bill, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly about using caution when introducing exotic species that can become invasive in suspectible climates. It was, after all, government agencies that encouraged people to use kudzu for erosion control in the South and multiflora rose as a fence replacement in the Midwest. I would not take too much comfort becasue paulowinia was recommended in a gov't publication but would check out the plant's behavior in your particular area. There just might be a connection between fantastic grow rates and the potential to become invasive and damage you and your neighbor's enviornment. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@timber.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 14:35:36 1999 Received: from timber.ces.ncsu.edu (timber.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.35.106]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27257 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majord@localhost) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00715 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:51:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: timber.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from homer.firststreetinternet.com (root@homer.firststreetinternet.com [208.232.44.4]) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00711 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from arielmcc (ip171.albany.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.10.228.171]) by homer.firststreetinternet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA14127 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:45:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38305437.39B4@fsinter.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:43:03 -0500 From: Ariel McCarthy Organization: Regional Farm & Food Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: program announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 The Regional Farm and & Food Project in Albany, NY is offering a four-part livestock direct-marketing course beginning in late January, 2000, within the Albany, Cobleskill, NY area. This course, which runs Saturday, January 22nd, Saturday, February 26th, Saturday March 18th, and Saturday April 29th, will offer a serious examination of sound business planning and marketing strategies that will make direct marketing livestock a viable and successful aspect of your farm. After completing the course, participants will have a stronger understanding of their goals and opportunities, and the appropriate resources to make smart marketing and business choices. This course assumes some experience raising livestock and a strong commitment to developing a livestock enterprise. For more information or to register, please contact Ariel McCarthy at the Regional Farm & Food Project, (518) 427-6537 or farmandfood@fsinter.net. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 14:39:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27311 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27628 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:54:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from homer.firststreetinternet.com (root@homer.firststreetinternet.com [208.232.44.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27428 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from arielmcc (ip171.albany.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.10.228.171]) by homer.firststreetinternet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA14183 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:48:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383054D5.36C@fsinter.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:45:41 -0500 From: Ariel McCarthy Organization: Regional Farm & Food Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: program announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 The Regional Farm & Food Project in Albany, NY is offering a farmer-to-farmer consulting program, beginning in early 2000. This program, which runs approximately 8 months within the Hudson-Mohawk region of Eastern New York, western Massachusetts and southern Vermont, pairs accomplished farmers with farmers who are looking for guidance and/or support with their operation. This whole-farm oriented program emphasizes enterprise development. Farmer consultants will mentor and assist their partners in all aspects of farm assessment in hopes of optimizing sustainability, profits and quality of life on the farm. Farmers actively involved in vegetable, livestock, dairy, and related types of production are welcome to apply. For more information or to register, please contact Ariel McCarthy at the Regional Farm & Food Project, (518) 427-6537 or farmandfood@fsinter.net. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 15:07:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28031 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16956 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:34:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16861 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntscspdcexch1.caldwellspartin ([208.24.177.8]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19875 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by NTSCSPDCEXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:32:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Walker Bennett To: "'Edna M Weigel'" , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Bermuda grass Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:32:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 310 Remembering what the summers are like in Tucson and Phoenix, you might try laying out black plastic sheets next spring. Temperatures should reach close to 200F at least 6" down and kill everything. You won't have much luck at this time of year, unfortunately. But about 3-4 weeks of sheeting, you'll at least get rid of the majority of roots. Walker Bennett wbennett@caldwellspartin.com wabennett@gw.total-web.net w_bennett@msn.com ___________________________________________________________ A good wife always forgives her husband when she's wrong. ___________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Edna M Weigel [mailto:eweigel@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 3:21 PM To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Bermuda grass I thought I had finally moved away from Bermuda grass (lawns in Tucson and Phoenix make it nearly impossible to do in the city) when I moved to our own 10 acres of Arizona. But I've discovered 3 small patches of it along our driveway. In fact, some of it is IN the driveway. In the past, I've gotten rid of it by digging out what I could then planting pumpkins which shaded the rest of it out. When I told our Master Gardener Class about this, our county agent insisted that I must not have had Bermuda grass because "it's been proven that only glycophosphate will kill Bermuda grass". So please don't suggest I ask the County Agent--I already know his answer. I'm unwilling to use Roundup on my property but I'm also unwilling to tolerate this terrible weed. I've dug up what is in (and very close to) the drive way and piled a "hay stack" of less noxious weeds on top of what is a few feet away from the drive with the plan of leaving the hay stack in place indefinately. But I anticipate having trouble in the drive. By the way, I had originally thought Bermuda would grow only where it got irrigation here in this part of high desert, but this is in a broad dry wash that gets flooded in the monsoons and is still moist after nearly two months of no measurable rain. Any suggestions? Regards, Edna Weigel ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 16:38:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29827 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14629 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:27:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14612 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.015136FE@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:24:58 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Nov 99 15:25:18 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Nov 99 15:24:56 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:24:48 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Sal's comments on GMOs In-reply-to: <199911131947.OAA18998@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1069CE1F67AE@agecon.uga.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 311 Sal, thank you very much for condencing the whole GMO issue so well and making it as clear as possible why this is something we should all be worried about even at the "smallest" levels. Maybe a lack of a college education helps one to see some things less encumbered sometimes, I don't know. I do have a college education, but I sure want to thank you for making things "simple." It takes a very bright person to accurately put forth an idea in the simplist way possible. I didn't need any SAS code to figure out that what you are saying makes sense. Today at lunch I heard someone in my department make the comment, "I just take it for granted that after 30 you get fat, and after 60 you get dentures!!" (She was irritated at her mother for not giving in to "reality" and getting her problematic teeth removed and replaced with dentures.) I wonder what sort of "facts" will be taken for granted in the age of GMOs...? Anita > ok ok I do not have a college education so to me I have to make things > simple. I understand Dale when he said "The practical matter is that > European public officials must decide on > tolerances. Trying to stick to zero will paralyze the system. I have heard > that the officials are dithering on this issue because of conflicting > political pressures. > > but as I understand these GMOs spread like cancer. if you have .001 one year > soon you will have .01 then .1 then 1% and so on. so you have to have zero > tolerance or your place on earth will have no non GMO soon like us here in > the USA. > now we are lucky we can test and find the smallest amount of these GMOs. so > if a bird doesn't shit it out or a bee does not carry the pollen or a boat > or truck does not have a few grains left of the floor or someone does not > bring it in in their luggage etc. we can maybe stop the cancer from > spreading to the whole body. in just a short time already we expect > contamination in the USA. remember this was made in a lab. it is not like > the killer bee that is a gene from mom and dad this is a gene added and in a > short time already expected to contaminate .001 man next year they will tell > us the .01 in expectable and on and on till there is no more non GMOS. it > is a cancer that was made in a lab spread by companies and all with the help > of the USDA. I guess this is what the folks met in the public comments "the > genie has been let out of the bottle or no use closing the barn door after > the cows got out" labels will not do any good. every will that does not > want to be one of the white mice will need a test kit. no only will these > genes go with the corn but as you can see they will contaminate the wheat > and weeds and on and on. some of the genes like fish gene in veg. and > scorpion poison in veg. will soon be spreading out to the whole earth. they > are changing life on earth as we know it. I know the killer bee is a NON > GMO but watching it spread and seeing that the USDA can not stop it (these > bees just killed a man down the street from me) all the way from South > America to Ca. they will not be about to stop the living GMOs they are > making in the lab today. > > the point of all this > you places that don't have any GMO;s test test test and don't except any > percent of the cancer because a little bit will spread. and you poor > organic growers in the USA the USDA has killed off organic growing . forget > about it. they make a rule no GMOs allowed for organic growers then > release on the public GMO's that the organic farmer has no control over and > soon no more organic . they make a law and kill u with the law they make. > they have not only taken over the word organic but have destroyed it. > there is no one to protect organic growing only burden those trying to > protect life on earth while letting the contaminators prosper. > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 17:35:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01141 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27255 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:41:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27175 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from debheleb.uvm.edu (132.198.166.38) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.E99B6930@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:38:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991115163932.008450c0@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: dheleba@pop.uvm.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:39:32 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Debra M. Heleba" Subject: Support for farming in Great Britain / France ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 312 Hello, I received a request for information about federal support of family farms in Great Britain and/or France. Does anyone have suggestions of programs / policies I could pass along? Any resources / websites / etc. are appreciated. Thank you, Deb Heleba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Debra M. Heleba UVM Center for Sustainable Agriculture 590 Main Street, Room 200 Burlington, Vermont 05405 tel: (802) 656-0233 fax: (802) 656-8874 email: dheleba@zoo.uvm.edu http://www.uvm.edu/~susagctr To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 18:43:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02378 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:43:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07496 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:08:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07488 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9nbb ([12.79.226.182]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19991115230529.DMOJ11272@h9nbb> for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:05:29 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Kline (E-mail)" To: "Sanet-Mg@Ces.Ncsu.Edu (E-mail)" Subject: FW: paulowinia for alley cropping Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bf2fbe$4c5083e0$b6e24f0c@h9nbb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 313 Bill, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly about using caution when introducing exotic species that can become invasive in suspectible climates. It was, after all, government agencies that encouraged people to use kudzu for erosion control in the South and multiflora rose as a fence replacement in the Midwest. I would not take too much comfort becasue paulowinia was recommended in a gov't publication but would check out the plant's behavior in your particular area. There just might be a connection between fantastic grow rates and the potential to become invasive and damage you and your neighbor's enviornment. Mike Miller Thank you Mike Miller. Well said. For those engaged in planting exotic invasive species please look downstream and beyond your fences. While you may be able to control the invasives on your farm, eventually they will escape your boundaries. To deny this is using tunnel vision for your own ends. The next farmer may not have the ruminants to consume the kudzu, the will to battle the multiflora rose without roundup, or the knowledge to destroy the paulownia before it invades the neighboring woodlot. The macroinvertabrates that form a sizable link in the stream food chain do not consume the leaves of multiflora rose or paulownia (at least in the eastern US). They highly prefer the leaves of the native trees and shrubs of a particular watershed, that they have evolved to eat. By planting these invasives you are negatively effecting the environment of your farm and those downstream. This is but one example of the effects on one segment of the food chain. There is a distinction to be made between exotic plants that form the core of our agricultural products, which left unattended generally die out, and exotic invasive plants which left to their own accord will take over Atlanta. As for suggestions from government agencies, the stream macroinvertabrates feed the trout prized by anglers and stocked by the state of Pennsylvania. The State knows and publicizes that the stocked trout are contaminated with PCB's. They stock them anyway (gotta get those tourist dollars), and offer the warning to eat no more than two fish per month to stay under the EPA safe PCB consumption levels. Some advice must be taken with more than one grain of salt. Mary To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 19:05:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02621 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29041 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:44:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28917 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA00822 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:02:33 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id IAA30347 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:22:24 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911160022.IAA30347@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 16 Nov 99 07:08:33 Subject: vetiver To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 314 I saw a World Bank publication which was strongly advocating a grass called vetiver for soil erosion control. It supposedly propagates through tills only, not seed and therefore will not spread so easily. I'd like to know if there are bad aspects to vetiver use. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Nov 15 19:44:43 1999 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03048; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29359; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Newsgroups: alt.permaculture Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Roberto Verzola cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: vetiver In-Reply-To: <199911160022.IAA30347@phil.gn.apc.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 315 On 16 Nov 1999, Roberto Verzola wrote: > I saw a World Bank publication which was strongly advocating a grass > called vetiver for soil erosion control. It supposedly propagates > through tills only, not seed and therefore will not spread so easily. > I'd like to know if there are bad aspects to vetiver use. The Vetiver Network http://www.vetiver.com/ THE VETIVER NETWORK PROMOTES THE USE OF VETIVER GRASS THE CONSERVATION AND ENGINEERING TOOL FOR THE 21st CENTURY The Vetiver Network is a non profit and tax exempt organization, managed by professionals, with the objective of disseminating information on the use of VETIVER GRASS for soil and water conservation, land rehabilitation, embankment stabilization and pollution control. We also include other selected technologies that we think are important and applicable to related aspects of the natural resources management. The Vetiver Network is supported by the The Royal Danish Government, The Wallace Genetic Foundation, the World Bank, anomynous UK Trust, and vetiver users around the world. <> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 19:49:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03105 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21832 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:20:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gwsmtp.ohsu.edu (gwsmtp.ohsu.edu [137.53.4.219]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21672 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from gwiadom1-Message_Server by gwsmtp.ohsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:18:11 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:17:49 -0800 From: "Kendra Wise" To: Subject: Re: vetiver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id TAA21755 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 316 Is this the same vetiver that is grown for essential oils in perfumes/soaps? If so, it might be a lucrative cash crop as well as a soil/erosion control crop. Does anyone know? Kendra Wise wiseke@ohsu.edu Portland, OR >>> Roberto Verzola 11/15 4:13 PM >>> I saw a World Bank publication which was strongly advocating a grass called vetiver for soil erosion control. It supposedly propagates through tills only, not seed and therefore will not spread so easily. I'd like to know if there are bad aspects to vetiver use. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 19:51:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03118 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25516 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:25:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25506 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991116002312.IMAK11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:23:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3830A50C.F73461D3@home.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:27:56 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1437 References: <199911152310.SAA10094@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 > Bill, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly about using caution > when introducing exotic species that can become invasive in suspectible > climates. Can anybody point to info on damage caused by Paulowinia, other than ...too much shade ...excess subsoil wicking of nutrients/minerals/water ...excess leaf drop carpeting understory plants in windy situations/ o r winter dieback ...leaf litter accumulation causing an increase in soil OM/mineralization, soil cooling, moisture retention To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 20:01:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03210 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27277 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:30:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27210 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991116002819.IOSA11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:28:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3830A63E.ABB7769B@home.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:33:02 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1437 References: <199911152310.SAA10094@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 318 sanet-mg-digest wrote: > Remembering what the summers are like in Tucson and Phoenix, you might try > laying out black plastic sheets next spring. Temperatures should reach > close to 200F at least 6" down Shouldnt the plastic be clear? I woiuld think that the black plastic would stop the sun from penetrating .It might heat the surface of the plastic, but what about the air and soil below?..... Take two greenhouses w/ clear plastic and shade one w/ black shade cloth... which one will be hotter inside? bill/10 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 20:12:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03283 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07229 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07216 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03048; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29359; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Newsgroups: alt.permaculture Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Roberto Verzola cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: vetiver In-Reply-To: <199911160022.IAA30347@phil.gn.apc.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 319 On 16 Nov 1999, Roberto Verzola wrote: > I saw a World Bank publication which was strongly advocating a grass > called vetiver for soil erosion control. It supposedly propagates > through tills only, not seed and therefore will not spread so easily. > I'd like to know if there are bad aspects to vetiver use. The Vetiver Network http://www.vetiver.com/ THE VETIVER NETWORK PROMOTES THE USE OF VETIVER GRASS THE CONSERVATION AND ENGINEERING TOOL FOR THE 21st CENTURY The Vetiver Network is a non profit and tax exempt organization, managed by professionals, with the objective of disseminating information on the use of VETIVER GRASS for soil and water conservation, land rehabilitation, embankment stabilization and pollution control. We also include other selected technologies that we think are important and applicable to related aspects of the natural resources management. The Vetiver Network is supported by the The Royal Danish Government, The Wallace Genetic Foundation, the World Bank, anomynous UK Trust, and vetiver users around the world. <> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 15 23:33:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05892 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17416 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:49:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17402 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.88] (r-67.187.alltel.net [166.102.67.187]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA15075 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:47:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199911160022.IAA30347@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:47:55 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: vetiver, pauwlonia, etc. Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 320 Vetiver? This grass grows right well in coastal areas of the the Gulf South. What a wonderful perfume oil of Vetiver is! If you live where it grows it makes the sea breezes ever so fragrant in the pre-dawn. While it can take over quite thoroughly where planted it does not seem to be carried hither and yon by seed and plant fragments like water hyacinth. Maybe this is good, though I'm not too sure. I'm not one to decry the taking over of an ecosystem by foreign invaders. Maybe vetiver isn't going to do much along these lines, but anyway, this has been happening since the world began and simply is happening at an accelerated rate in our times. The California coast, for instance, has three notable foreign invaders that have become nearly ubiquitous--pampas from South America, eucalyptus from Australia and anise from Europe. Almost all that is missing is kudzu from The Orient. Kudzu would clothe the hillsides, slow down erosion and ameliorate both dry and rainy conditions. It is the best fodder plant we have in the Southeast, and you never see it in pastures since it quickly gets grazed to death because it is so nutritious. California needs it but they are doing everything they can manage to keep it out. Well, you should see it growing wild in Japan and should see all the uses that have been found for it over the centuries. Like pauwlonia it is leguminous and brings up the minerals it needs from considerable depth, enriching the topsoil. In the off-season it is feasible to grow potatoes without any inputs except labor where kudzu was long established. It turns our southeast red clays into German Chocolate cake. Wonderful stuff to fill the ecological voids with. I mentioned water hyacinth? The manatee's delight? Boy is this one invasive! But it cleans up waterways by filtering its nutrients out of the water, and if dragged ashore in great piles it makes excellent compost and could be a more important source of fertilizer than the dead alewives that wash ashore at Chicago beaches every summer. Alewives are another niche filler, a herring that invaded Lake Michigan several decades back. When I lived in Chicago in the late 60s the dead of this species littered the shorelines just crying for processing into organic fertilizer. Actually the people were doing the crying while the fish catalyzed this process with their offensive stench. As a practical matter why isn't there more concern with learning how best to make use of these vigorous ecological niche fillers? Is there something wrong with vigor and dominance that I don't understand? I have ancestors who were Native American. But on my mother's side they were all Swedes. All my childhood and early twenties my mother (who had 8 kids. I was seventh and born when she was 44. She lived to 92.) never slept more than 5 hours a night and was never ill with anything. While I'm justifiably proud to have American blood, it would be hard to argue that a good part of my vigor isn't due to my Swedish ancestry. Maybe it isn't the most politically correct thing to say that Swedes and other Europeans are hyper-vigorous invaders who overwhelmed the indigenous humans of this continent. People don't seem to want to think about this. But what's wrong with facing facts? Let's move on from here, not some idealized version of what was or may have been or what someone says should have been. Vigor seems to get nature's vote time and again. It makes me think and re-think, what does it mean to work with nature rather than against her? Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia >On 16 Nov 1999, Roberto Verzola wrote: > >> I saw a World Bank publication which was strongly advocating a grass >> called vetiver for soil erosion control. It supposedly propagates >> through tills only, not seed and therefore will not spread so easily. >> I'd like to know if there are bad aspects to vetiver use. > > >The Vetiver Network >http://www.vetiver.com/ > >THE VETIVER NETWORK PROMOTES THE USE OF VETIVER GRASS >THE CONSERVATION AND ENGINEERING TOOL FOR THE 21st CENTURY >The Vetiver Network is a non profit and tax exempt organization, >managed by professionals, with the objective of disseminating information >on the use of VETIVER GRASS for soil and water conservation, land >rehabilitation, >embankment stabilization and pollution control. We also include other selected >technologies that we think are important and applicable to related aspects >of the >natural resources management. > >The Vetiver Network is supported by the The Royal Danish Government, >The Wallace Genetic Foundation, the World Bank, anomynous UK Trust, >and vetiver users around the world. > > ><> >Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm >http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden >/permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech >lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 00:18:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06609 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11619 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:44:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11610 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991116044244.NOZO11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:42:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3830E1E5.4768E92B@home.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:47:33 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Solarization for bermuda References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 321 > > Remembering what the summers are like in Tucson and Phoenix, you might try > > laying out black plastic sheets next spring. Temperatures should reach > > close to 200F at least 6" down > Shouldnt the plastic be clear? I woiuld think that the black plastic > would stop the sun from penetrating .It might heat the surface of the > plastic, but what about the air and soil below?..... Take two > greenhouses w/ clear plastic and shade one w/ black shade cloth... which > one will be hotter inside? > bill/10 > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 04:38:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA08734 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 04:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02397 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 04:12:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA02328 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 04:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp2.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24925; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:10:08 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28701; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:12:18 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 16 Nov 99 10:04:24 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 16 Nov 99 10:03:36 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:03:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <1C5FB766A43@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 323 hello loren, >Deciding whether to label something a "problem" or not is a >matter of policy, not chemistry. apparently your own insight of the problem doesn't seem to be much widespread among scientists. a lot of the publications will contain some conclusion like "xx bears no risk", "bears only small risks" or "bears a high risk for...". the "degree/grade" of a "risk" is a social evaluation of a scientific finding by society and should be used VERY carefully and rarely by scientist (except as private opinion as a citizen and this one has to stay out of his publications as a scientist). "considerable risk" or "resulting in a statistically rate of liver failure in 1 of every 10000 applications" would be the correct way of description in the discussion part of the publication. but: these sentences are rarely to be found. mostly scientists can't hold the horses and feel the urgent need to bring their own "risk enlightenment" to the readers.. >None of us said anything about analytic chemistry. We were all >making the point that we find it a problem when manufactured >substances which we have never used and in fact actively avoid >contact with, nevertheless can be found in our bodies, as >evidenced by being excreted by our bodies. people seem to be VERY ambiguous about that. the fact, that gasoline lead meanwhile can be found even in bodies of indegenious tribes in the deepest djungle (to whom it would be difficult to explain carburation, not to mention that they never have even SEEN a motorcar) doesn't seem to have stopped people in highly mobilized societies to use their cars (or nuclear plants emissions or emitting sulphurdioxide in the air or pcbs even into the arctic ice or forcing global warming (the inuit might wonder, where all that entropy of energy might come from, maybe it's the heat from the sealion's loss of fat in arctic winters).... don't want to play the chloropyrifos problem down, but i have the strong impression, that everyone is playing his OWN deck of cards... >Person B is not allowed to store his lawnmower in my garage. my neighbour some weeks ago wondered about all the leaves in his garden. especially because other than in my garden he only has planted needle trees in his own ,-)) >His shoes are not under my bed; your husband certainly will appreciate it !!! ;-)) >I have taken the opportunity to have 150 college students decide >whether chloropyrifos in the urine is or is not a "problem," by >giving the choice to them on an exam. They may choose either, >provided only that they supply their reasoning. I'll let you >know what they think when I'm done grading this mountain of >papers. i'm very interested in the results. but would it not have been wise to also ask them about a problem, they themselfes do create and where they spill the residues on others not being involved (like producing sulphuric rain in central africa from their energy use or the cancer increase from the diesel soot produced when driving to their girlfriends)? ask THAT question at first and you will have a nice sociological study of selfishness in pink... don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the boy behind the tree. yes, when i'm deeply earnest again, i'm aware, that it's a problem of sustainability as a whole (and not only especially in agriculture) here are the basics for sustainable production (taken from peter montague's rachels environmental & health weekly #650): The Four Elements of Clean Production According to various definitions developed over the years, there are four main elements that make up the concept of Clean Production: 1. The Precautionary Approach When an activity raises threats of harm to the environment or human health, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. [See REHW #586.] This places the burden of proof on proponents of an activity to prove there is no safer way of proceeding, rather than on victims or potential victims of the activity to prove it will be harmful. 2. The Preventive Approach It is cheaper and more effective to prevent environmental damage than to attempt to manage or "cure" it. Prevention requires examining the entire product life cycle from raw material extraction to ultimate disposal. It encourages the exploration of safer alternatives and the development of cleaner products and technologies. For example, prevention requires process and product changes to entirely avoid the generation of incinerable waste streams by designing non-toxic products made from materials that can be safely recycled or composted. 3. Democratic Control Clean Production involves all those affected by industrial activities, including workers, consumers and communities. Access to information and involvement in decision-making, coupled with power and resources, will help to ensure democratic control. Clean Production can only be implemented with the full involvement of workers and consumers within the product chain. 4. Integrated and Holistic Approach Society must adopt an integrated approach to environmental resource use and consumption. We need to think in a systems way. For each product we buy, we need to have information accessible about the materials, energy and people involved in making it. Access to this information would help build alliances for sustainable production and consumption. Integration also means taking a holistic approach whereby we don't shift risks between media or the environment and workers or consumers and don't create new problems while addressing an older one (e.g., genetic engineered plants as a replacement for pesticides). Clean Production Criteria 1. Clean Production systems for food and manufactured products are ** Non-toxic; ** Energy efficient; ** Made using renewable materials which are routinely replenished and extracted in a manner that maintains the viability of the ecosystem and community from which they were taken; ** Made from non-renewable materials previously extracted but able to be reprocessed in an energy efficient and non-toxic manner. 2. The products are ** Durable and reusable; ** Easy to dismantle, repair and rebuild; ** Minimally and appropriately packaged for distribution using reusable or recycled and recyclable materials; or ** compostable at the end of their life. 3. Above all, Clean Production systems ** Are non-polluting throughout their entire life cycle; ** Preserve diversity in nature and culture; ** Support the ability of future generations to meet their needs. 4. The life-cycle includes ** The product/technology design phase; ** The raw material selection and production phase; ** The product manufacture and assemblage phase; ** The consumer use of the product phase; ** The societal management of the materials at the end of the useful life of the product. ---- the english social reformer john rifkin (1819-1900) explained it like that (rough translation, wrong expressions are MY fault, don't blame it on him): "there is hardly anything in this world, which cannot be made a little worse and a little cheaper by someone. people, who only look for the price, will become the fair pray of such machinations. it is unwise to pay too much, but it's even worse to pay too little. if you pay too much, you are loosing some money - that's all. but if you pay to little, you often are loosing all the money, because the product, you paid for might not be able to fulfill it's intended task at all. the law of economy forbids, that you get much value for little money. if you take the cheapest offer, you will need to add some money for the possible risk of worthlessness you are taking. and if you do so, you very often will have enough money to pay for the more expensive, better and more sustainable product. klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 06:49:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09395 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16546 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:04:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alphalink.com.au (mail.alphalink.com.au [203.24.205.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16487 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from chris (d56-ds0-cra.alphalink.com.au [202.161.116.56]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14939 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:01:58 +1100 Message-ID: <38314055.EF0@alphalink.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:00:29 +0930 From: Chris Alenson Organization: Organic Advisory Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Food nutrition and soil regeneration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 I have followed this interesting subject for some time and I am grateful to Steve Diver and the many respondents for further references on the subject. Our organisation has just completed a study looking at mineral levels of four vegetables (silver beet, capsicums, beans and tomatoes) to see whether soil manipulation could improve the nutritional characteristics of these vegetables. Equivalent vegetables from a supermarket were also analysed. The hypothesis was based on the observation that consumers purchase fruit and vegetables from supermarkets and stores on the assumption that they are providing them with sound nutrition. They do not necessarily know the variety or where or how they are grown. Our belief is that despite its often glossy wonderful appearance food today is not delivering the range of nutrient elements that it should. The taste is often very average. We all know that many factors in the production process can affect the ultimate nutrition of the crop, ie fertility management, variety, stage of ripening, post harvest chemical treatment, storage, etc We concentrated on the production end of the supply chain. The soil that the trial vegetables were grown on is a degraded volcanic soil pH of 4.5 low in nutrient elements such as calcium, magnesium, potassium and trace elements. It is in fact in the last stages of the weathering cycle with aluminium and iron oxides and hydoxides evident in the mineral fraction (X-ray diffraction was used to analyse the mineral components). Analysis indicates that the cation exchange minerals are scarce (supported by a low CEC in the soil analysis) and humus is low, meaning that storage of plant nutrients for ready access for plant roots is also low. This soil was revitalised with rock dust(basalt) and specific prescription mineral fertiliser containing calcium, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus and trace elements, a zeolite mineral added to increase the exchange capacity and good quality compost added to increase the biological activity of the soil and to aid in mobilisation of nutrients from the minerals added. It should be emphasised that this was not a replicated plot experiment and the results are only an indication and not a direct comparative study. The trial is however sufficient to illustrate that replenishing a depleted soil with the correct minerals will result in mineral rich foods. A lot more work needs to be done in this area and to expand the nutrient elements to include more mineral elements, proteins, amino acids, phytochemicals, etc. When we examined the analytical results from the vegetables grown on the revitalised soils and the supermarket items mineral levels were often ten times higher on the revitalised soil. Australian soils as many people would know are very old and fragile requiring careful treatment. Our results indicate that perhaps conventional management supplying only a limited number of nutrients through synthetic fertilisers and not replenishing organic matter may not be providing the nutrition that Australian consumers believe to be the case. I believe it was Wm Albrecht that said production levels continued well after quality diminished. Perhaps we are seeing this in Australia at the present time? We hope this limited study will stimulate further research. Results are below: beans tomatoes capsicum silver beet calcium S 40 6.7 4.7 6 O 480 67 84 1600 potassium S 260 200 150 450 O 1900 300 1600 2600 magnesium S 26 10 11 69 O 240 89 700 1700 sodium S <1 2.4 <1 180 O <10 26 20 1800 iron S .6 <.5 <.5 1.4 O <5 <5 <5 9.4 zinc S .38 .19 .13 .57 O 3.4 1.2 2.5 130 mg/kg S-supermarket produce O-organic/revitalised soil I hope this table reproduces so readers can follow the results. Chris Alenson Technica Adviser Organic Advisory Service Organic Retailears & Growers Association of Australia email oas@alphalink.com.au I hope this table reproduces so readers can follow the esults. Chris Alenson Technica Adviser Organic Advisory Service Organic Retailears & Growers Association of Australia email oas@alphalink.com.au To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From rbfarr@erols.com Tue Nov 16 07:48:04 1999 Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09741 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-102.s102.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.102]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id HAA22318; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:48:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383152C7.7EBF0842@erols.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:49:11 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: Roberto Verzola , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: vetiver References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 325 Well, I don't know about the long-term viability of Vetiver. But anything the World Bank is involved in, I approach more than skeptically... R. From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 08:20:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10064 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00278 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:50:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00256 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-102.s102.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.102]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id HAA22318; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:48:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383152C7.7EBF0842@erols.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:49:11 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: Roberto Verzola , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: vetiver References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 326 Well, I don't know about the long-term viability of Vetiver. But anything the World Bank is involved in, I approach more than skeptically... R. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 08:58:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10528 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23435 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:39:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23363 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20525 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:24:00 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:32:54 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: eweigel@juno.com, fresherb@nrg.com.au Cc: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 327 David, antibiotics not antimicrobials create resistant strains. Antimicrobial action is chemo-mechanical (generally) where as antibiotics are biological... To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 09:52:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11841 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20306 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:29:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20296 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:29:15 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.73]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:27:07 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991116081323.007fc9d0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:13:23 -0600 To: Subject: YAK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 328 Hugh said: >As a practical matter why isn't there more concern with learning how best >to make use of these vigorous ecological niche fillers? Is there something >wrong with vigor and dominance that I don't understand? Yes, in this case it's called the Endangered Species Act. I have ancestors >who were Native American. ...snip... Maybe it isn't the most politically >correct thing to say that Swedes and other Europeans are hyper-vigorous >invaders who overwhelmed the indigenous humans of this continent. People >don't seem to want to think about this. But what's wrong with facing facts? If you ask the Native Americans of the time this was occuring, you would no doubt get a very different view point about the "hyper-vigorous" concept. I suspect terms like swindler, liar, murderer and thief would be forming in their minds. The following is a quote from Crazy Horse that addresses these issues pretty well: "We did not ask you white men to come here, the Great Spirit gave us this country as a home. You had yours. We did not interfere with you. The Great Spirit gave us plenty of land to live on, and buffalo, deer, antelope and other game. But you have come here; you are taking my land from me; you are killing off our game, so it is hard for us to live. ...snip... We do not interfere with you, and again you say why do you not become civilized? We do not want your civilization! We would live as our fathers did and their fathers before them." I guess some problems and the need for invasive species to solve them are really only in the eyes of the beholder. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 11:29:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14013 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03952 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:55:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03943 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:39:21 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:48:40 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: dmhinds@acnet.net, gwg2@cornell.edu Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: HACCP -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 329 Thank you Doug, I've been having a real hard time with this whole string. HACCP while a wonderful systematic approach to problem solving is of little value to the good manager. The good manager, whether a small farmer or the management team of a large processor already has a HACCP like system in place. Those that teach HACCP and promote it in the first lecture point out that it requires a top down/bottom up commitment or it just doesn't work. HACCP may in some cases make a good operation a little better, in no way can the forced application of HACCP make a poor operation better. The joke going around among FSIS (Food Safety Inspection Service(USDA poultry and meat Inspection)) Inspectors is: HACCP = "Have a Cup of Coffee and Pray". Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 11:45:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15737 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04784 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:59:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04765 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLA007X9SA0WJ@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:56:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:50:41 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Chlorpyrifos To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 330 Howdy, all-- A passage in Rachel's Environment and Health Weekly #676 made me chuckle, as I've been following the discussion of chlorpyrifos. Rachel #676 contains an unprecedented letter to the editor, from Paul Hawken, regarding Monsanto's involvement with The Natural Step. Hawken has this (among many other things) to say, and I thought it might interest some of you: >I had the dubious honor, however, of trying to teach two TNS >workshops that were held at Monsanto. In one, I was joined by Don >Aitken, senior scientist at Union of Concerned Scientists, and >the other by Susan Burns of Natural Strategies. They were a >disaster. Their [Monsanto's] head scientists didn't even accept >the second law of thermodynamics. They ridiculed the slides used >showing System Condition #2 concerning levels of human caused >toxicity in the environment. They actually defended the level of >artificial substances in mother's milk. They absolutely rebelled >at System Condition #4 calling it socialism at best, communism >possibly. They were totally offended by TNS. It was tense, >uncomfortable, confrontational, and deeply disappointing. Sound familiar? :^) I want to weigh in on the chlorpyrifos issue at some point--sorry, but I've been swamped here with a variety of things related to various transitions. I also learned yesterday that a UNIX glitch kept me from getting 315 pieces of e-mail since October 12, so I'm digging out from under that as well. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it. --Former U.S. Vice President, now Presidential hopeful, Dan Quayle To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 11:46:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15759 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08655 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:09:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08632 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id KAA21461; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:07:37 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma020599; Tue, 16 Nov 99 10:07:03 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:07:02 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A000D@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU'" Cc: sanet Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:07:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 331 Loren, > Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself > is disregarded as being in the category of things we call > "a problem." "Chemical trespass" is just some term you made up. It has no legal meaning. And at the detection levels we are talking about, no biological meaning either. > By this reasoning, if a person breaks into my home by > picking the lock, but does not actually break the lock > in doing so, and proceeds to alarm my family, tells bad > jokes, has vile body odor, and sit on the furniture... I think you are setting up a straw-man argument here. These bad habits are not analogous to chemical residues in your foods, because the residues have no detectable effects. > I shall poll everyone I run across for the next 7 days... Obviously you see this as an ethical issue. Instead of an emotional appeal, I would like to see a well-reasoned ethical argument. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 12:22:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16707 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28924 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:46:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web601.mail.yahoo.com (web601.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28909 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:46:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991116164443.12081.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.8.215.69] by web601.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:44:43 PST Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:44:43 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: do you know about this hunger strike? To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 I've been logging on to the website below to read the daily journal of this man who is on a hunger strike over bst in milk. To me, the willingness of a man to starve to the death reflects the depth of passion that is emerging over the genetic manipulation of our food. kate > PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY.....PASS IT ON!!!! > _________________________________________________________________ > ***** PRESS RELEASE ****** PRESS RELEASE ***** PRESS RELEASE ***** > __________________________________________________________________ > > On November 7, 1999, Robert Cohen began a hunger strike to draw > attention to the fact that America's milk and dairy products are now > hazardous to consumers' health. Hundreds of people around the world > have already joined Robert Cohen on his hunger strike, and there will be > thousands more. > > http://www.hungerstrike.com > > Mr. Cohen has filed a suit (FDA citizen's petition - docket > #99P-4613) to remove Monsanto's genetically engineered bovine growth > hormone (rbGH) from the market claiming that it poses a serious health > risk to all humans. > > According to Cohen: > > 1) Monsanto made an error by creating a "freak" amino acid > 2) Lab animals treated with rbGH got cancer > 3) Levels of hormones in rbGH-treated milk increase > 4) Blood serum levels of milk hormones increase in milk drinkers > > For messages of support to Robert Cohen: > E-MAIL HIM AT: notmilkman@notmilk.com > > FOR MORE INFORMATION: http://www.hungerstrike.com > > VISIT http://www.notmilk.com -- Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone > > FOR MORE INFORMATION ! > ANN MCANANY ! > ARGUS PUBLIC RELATIONS ! > 325 SYLVAN AVE. ! > ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS, NJ 07632 ! > (201)871-5871 ! > ____________________________! > ***** PRESS RELEASE ****** PRESS RELEASE ***** PRESS RELEASE ***** > _________________________________________________________________ > ***** PRESS RELEASE ****** PRESS RELEASE ***** PRESS RELEASE ***** ===== ------------------ Kate Smith, Ph.D. Vice President AUS Consultants, Inc. 155 Gaither Drive Moorestown, NJ 08057 856-234-9200 (O) 856-234-0733 (F) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 13:03:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17837 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14769 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:20:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14737 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:20:11 -0500 (EST) From: SustainAg@aol.com Received: from SustainAg@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.5b2ad44a (4380) for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:17:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.5b2ad44a.2562eba7@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:17:27 EST Subject: HPI Position in Alabama To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 Southeast Heifer Project International Field Assistant This position assists the Southeast HPI Program Manager with developing and monitoring project groups in Alabama. The Field Assistant will be working in the areas of community development, organizing training, networking groups with other service providers, and marketing of agricultural products. The Field Assistant will assist groups with managing budgets, completing progress and financial reports for HPI, and give presentations about HPI's work when requested. The position requires a Bachelor's degree in an appropriate area, plus 3 to 5 years of experience and knowledge of sustainable agriculture and community development. Excellent interpersonal skills, written and oral skills, computer skills, ability to travel extensively and a willingness to live in Alabama also required. The salary for this position is approximately $25,000/year with generous benefits. Please contact Dr. Kathleen Colverson, HPI, 1810 NW 6th Street, Suite F, Gainesville, FL 32609; 352-371-1170 with resume and cover letter if interested. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 13:11:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18073 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21308 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:29:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21299 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from gwg2 ([128.253.226.175]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20572; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:27:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991116120035.00b6cd80@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:03:13 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Gilbert Gillespie Subject: Re: Research on use of local food by institutions Cc: ka22@cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 335 I am forwarding the following from Katherine Aliamo who is not on SANET. Please address any comments or requests directly to her at ka22@cornell.edu. --Gil Gillespie >From: Katherine Alaimo >Subject: Re: Research on use of local food by institutions > >I'm responding to the email sent below about a request for information >about integrating local food into institutions. I am a graduate student >at Cornell and through a student organization, The Cornell Food Project, >have been working with Cornell Dining to incorporate local foods into the >dining halls. I also have a copy of the Hendrix College Guide and many >other useful materials. I'd like to respond directly to Kevin, but was >sent the message without his email address. >Thanks, >Katherine Alaimo To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 14:01:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20711 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14403 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:15:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14361 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:15:04 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.69]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:12:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991116115907.007d5a50@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:59:07 -0600 To: Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 >Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos Chemical Trespass is a term I first saw in either the book "Living Downstream" by Sandra Steingraber. ISBN 0-201-48303-3 or the book "Our Stolen Future" by Theo Colbourn et al. ISBN 0-0525-93982-2 They both raise reasonable questions about your assertions below. I think you will find these books provide the well reasonded arguments you ask for and do cast some serious doubt about the safety of the even very low level of endocrine distruptoring chemicals esp. during fetal development. Mike Miller Dale said: >Loren, > >> Apparently, the clear evidence of chemical trespass itself >> is disregarded as being in the category of things we call >> "a problem." > >"Chemical trespass" is just some term you made up. It has no legal meaning. >And at the detection levels we are talking about, no biological meaning >either. > >> By this reasoning, if a person breaks into my home by >> picking the lock, but does not actually break the lock >> in doing so, and proceeds to alarm my family, tells bad >> jokes, has vile body odor, and sit on the furniture... > >I think you are setting up a straw-man argument here. These bad habits are >not analogous to chemical residues in your foods, because the residues have >no detectable effects. > >> I shall poll everyone I run across for the next 7 days... > >Obviously you see this as an ethical issue. Instead of an emotional appeal, >I would like to see a well-reasoned ethical argument. > >Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 14:32:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21410 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28140 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:41:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umx-mail01.missouri.edu (umx-mail01.missouri.edu [128.206.10.221]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28135 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by umx-mail01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:39:38 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Kelly, Debi" To: "'sanet'" Subject: FW: plastics in our environment Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:39:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 Thought some of you out there in sanet-land might like to read this. debi kelly, MAC > -----Original Message----- > From: Hemmelgarn, Melinda > Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 6:17 PM > To: UM UOE Nutrition > Subject: plastics in our environment > > Nutrition Specialists: a VERY hot topic. This is from the MU news bureau; > VomSaal will be speaking on Dec. 2nd on the Columbia campus; 4:00-5:00 in > Gwynn Hall in case you are interested in attending. > Melinda. > -------------------------------------------------- > October 20, 1999 > > Contact: Christian Basi > Interim Assistant Director for News > (573) 882-4430 > BasiC@missouri.edu > > PLASTIC CHEMICALS COULD BE CAUSE OF REPRODUCTIVE, WEIGHT PROBLEMS, MU > RESEARCHERS SAY > > COLUMBIA, Mo. - Over the past decades, researchers have reported a > dramatic increase in the number of overweight Americans, reproductive > deformities and the number of youth reaching puberty at early ages. In the > past, these findings have been attributed to nutrition, lifestyle and > genetics. However, in an article to be published in Nature this week, a > team of researchers from the University of Missouri-Columbia and North > Carolina State University report that a chemical estrogen that is used to > make plastics could be a contributing factor. > The researchers, Kembra Howdeshell, an MU doctoral candidate; and > Frederick vom Saal, MU professor of biological sciences; exposed mice to > bisphenol A (BPA), similar to levels at which humans are routinely > exposed. BPA is a compound that was originally made as a chemical > estrogen, but that is now used as a "building block" for the production of > polycarbonate plastic products such as baby bottles, tin can linings, > certain toys and certain types of food storage containers. What resulted > were findings that included an earlier onset of puberty and an increase in > body weight after birth. Howdeshell and vom Saal also found that mice with > more natural estrogen in them were much more sensitive to the chemical > than those with low levels of natural estrogen. > "People sometimes get confused if 100 percent of the population doesn't > exhibit the exact same symptoms to a chemical, but there are varying > effects in the animal as well as human population," Howdeshell said. > "That's to be expected, but there is no way to predict natural levels of > estrogens in humans without doing several series of invasive tests. The > whole idea of government regulation is to protect the most sensitive > subpopulation, which our findings identify as having the highest levels of > natural estrogen." > The study was conducted by exposing mice to BPA while still in the womb. > Exposure was done just during pregnancy, not > after birth. However, the study concluded that exposure to the chemical > while still in the womb programs post-natal growth. On > average, Howdeshell and vom Saal found that mice exposed to BPA weighed 20 > percent more than normal when examined at > puberty. The research was conducted over a period of one year and was > funded > by a $500,000 grant from the National > Institutes of Health. > "We found that the largest effects happened to the babies of the pregnant > mother," Howdeshell said. "The chemical did not affect the mother, but > instead it altered the babies' growth patterns and accelerated timing of > sexual maturity. Our study shows that this chemical may be a factor for > contributing to trends seen in human populations over the past several > decades." > The researchers' findings indicated that more work is needed to discover > the exact effects of BPA on humans. However, in previous research, when > both humans and mice were exposed to the same relative dose of chemical > estrogens, the effects were nearly identical. Both experienced similar > types of abnormalities of the reproductive system. This points to the need > for research on humans. > "We're not offering an answer concerning effects in humans with these > findings; instead, the findings pose a question regarding human health," > vom Saal said. "This study should serve as a guide for human research. We > believe that the medical community should take a long look at this study > and consider looking at BPA as a possible cause for the changes in growth, > sexual maturation and reproductive abnormalities that have been reported > in the humans in the past decades." > Vom Saal also has pointed out that food containers are not the only source > of exposure to this chemical. BPA also is used to make computers, toys and > other household items. Products made with BPA have been claimed to be > nondegradable. > However, at the Estrogens in the Environment conference in New Orleans > Oct. 18-21, Howdeshell and vom Saal are presenting evidence from another > study showing that BPA leaches out into the environment from plastic > products with repeated use. > * 30- > > EDITOR'S NOTE: Vom Saal has just been named a fellow of the American > Association for the Advancement of Science. Each year since 1874, the AAAS > Council elects members whose efforts on behalf of the advancement of > science or its applications are scientifically or socially distinguished. > Vom Saal is being honored for his work involving the effects of natural > hormones and these endocrine disrupting chemicals on fetuses. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 14:41:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21585 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00443 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:48:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00394 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11nnc1-0001z6-00; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:45:53 +0100 Message-ID: <3831AB5B.13A59372@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:07:07 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, GMO-L@cornell.edu, gentech@gen.free.de, ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, bitech_activists@iatp.org Subject: New "pesticides" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 338 Source: Dutch Agrarian Journal 16-11-99 The Hague- Beer, salt, milk, beewax and a number of substances considered harmless are going to be allowed as pesticides. This was decided by Secretary-Minister Faber of the Ministry of Agriculture. Faber has provided a list with harmless substances to "Brussels". It is expected that medio next year will be allowed for use as pesticide. The list consists of substances like: beer, salt, calcium, calcium-nitrogen, milk and dairyproducts, calciumchloride, beewax, sand, natrium or kaliumsilicate, seeweed and algaeextracts, garlic, soy and onion extracts, etheric oils. In current practice these sunstances are being used at a small scale or in organic agriculture. wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 15:21:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22805 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19562 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:22:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umc-mail01.missouri.edu (umc-mail01.missouri.edu [128.206.10.216]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19526 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by umc-mail01.missouri.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:19:55 -0600 Message-ID: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953B8D@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> From: "Webb, Kevin" To: "Kelly, Debi" , "'sanet'" Subject: RE: plastics in our environment Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:19:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 Debi et al- For an excellent book on the topic, see Theo Colburns "Our Stolen Future : Are We Threatening Our Fertility, Intelligence, and Survival?-A Scientific Detective Story". If I remember correctly, she mentions VomSaal's work several times. Check out the book on Amazon at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0452274141/qid=942779736/sr=1-1/102-8 160959-1655255 Kevin Kevin Webb Food Circles Networking Project Department of Rural Sociology University of Missouri-Columbia 105 Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 (573) 882-3776 [573] 882=1473 (fax) webbk@missouri.edu -----Original Message----- From: Kelly, Debi [mailto:KellyD@umsystem.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 12:40 PM To: 'sanet' Subject: FW: plastics in our environment Thought some of you out there in sanet-land might like to read this. debi kelly, MAC > -----Original Message----- > From: Hemmelgarn, Melinda > Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 6:17 PM > To: UM UOE Nutrition > Subject: plastics in our environment > > Nutrition Specialists: a VERY hot topic. This is from the MU news bureau; > VomSaal will be speaking on Dec. 2nd on the Columbia campus; 4:00-5:00 in > Gwynn Hall in case you are interested in attending. > Melinda. > -------------------------------------------------- > October 20, 1999 > > Contact: Christian Basi > Interim Assistant Director for News > (573) 882-4430 > BasiC@missouri.edu > > PLASTIC CHEMICALS COULD BE CAUSE OF REPRODUCTIVE, WEIGHT PROBLEMS, MU > RESEARCHERS SAY > > COLUMBIA, Mo. - Over the past decades, researchers have reported a > dramatic increase in the number of overweight Americans, reproductive > deformities and the number of youth reaching puberty at early ages. In the > past, these findings have been attributed to nutrition, lifestyle and > genetics. However, in an article to be published in Nature this week, a > team of researchers from the University of Missouri-Columbia and North > Carolina State University report that a chemical estrogen that is used to > make plastics could be a contributing factor. > The researchers, Kembra Howdeshell, an MU doctoral candidate; and > Frederick vom Saal, MU professor of biological sciences; exposed mice to > bisphenol A (BPA), similar to levels at which humans are routinely > exposed. BPA is a compound that was originally made as a chemical > estrogen, but that is now used as a "building block" for the production of > polycarbonate plastic products such as baby bottles, tin can linings, > certain toys and certain types of food storage containers. What resulted > were findings that included an earlier onset of puberty and an increase in > body weight after birth. Howdeshell and vom Saal also found that mice with > more natural estrogen in them were much more sensitive to the chemical > than those with low levels of natural estrogen. > "People sometimes get confused if 100 percent of the population doesn't > exhibit the exact same symptoms to a chemical, but there are varying > effects in the animal as well as human population," Howdeshell said. > "That's to be expected, but there is no way to predict natural levels of > estrogens in humans without doing several series of invasive tests. The > whole idea of government regulation is to protect the most sensitive > subpopulation, which our findings identify as having the highest levels of > natural estrogen." > The study was conducted by exposing mice to BPA while still in the womb. > Exposure was done just during pregnancy, not > after birth. However, the study concluded that exposure to the chemical > while still in the womb programs post-natal growth. On > average, Howdeshell and vom Saal found that mice exposed to BPA weighed 20 > percent more than normal when examined at > puberty. The research was conducted over a period of one year and was > funded > by a $500,000 grant from the National > Institutes of Health. > "We found that the largest effects happened to the babies of the pregnant > mother," Howdeshell said. "The chemical did not affect the mother, but > instead it altered the babies' growth patterns and accelerated timing of > sexual maturity. Our study shows that this chemical may be a factor for > contributing to trends seen in human populations over the past several > decades." > The researchers' findings indicated that more work is needed to discover > the exact effects of BPA on humans. However, in previous research, when > both humans and mice were exposed to the same relative dose of chemical > estrogens, the effects were nearly identical. Both experienced similar > types of abnormalities of the reproductive system. This points to the need > for research on humans. > "We're not offering an answer concerning effects in humans with these > findings; instead, the findings pose a question regarding human health," > vom Saal said. "This study should serve as a guide for human research. We > believe that the medical community should take a long look at this study > and consider looking at BPA as a possible cause for the changes in growth, > sexual maturation and reproductive abnormalities that have been reported > in the humans in the past decades." > Vom Saal also has pointed out that food containers are not the only source > of exposure to this chemical. BPA also is used to make computers, toys and > other household items. Products made with BPA have been claimed to be > nondegradable. > However, at the Estrogens in the Environment conference in New Orleans > Oct. 18-21, Howdeshell and vom Saal are presenting evidence from another > study showing that BPA leaches out into the environment from plastic > products with repeated use. > * 30- > > EDITOR'S NOTE: Vom Saal has just been named a fellow of the American > Association for the Advancement of Science. Each year since 1874, the AAAS > Council elects members whose efforts on behalf of the advancement of > science or its applications are scientifically or socially distinguished. > Vom Saal is being honored for his work involving the effects of natural > hormones and these endocrine disrupting chemicals on fetuses. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 15:25:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22907 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00298 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:43:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00263 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:42:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from debheleb.uvm.edu (132.198.166.38) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.83627050@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:40:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991116144050.007dbe30@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: dheleba@pop.uvm.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:40:50 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Debra M. Heleba" Subject: Position Announcement: Ag Business Mgt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 340 Please note that the deadline for applying for this position is November 30. Deb POSITION DESCRIPTION: EXTENSION ASSISTANT PROFESSOR Department of Community Development and Applied Economics College of Agriculture and Life Sciences University of Vermont Extension Assistant Professor, Agricultural Business Management. UVM Extension/Vermont Experiment Station, non-tenure track position. DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: Although the primary assignment is in Extension, the position carries a significant research component. The person will be expected to devote a major portion of program time to the dairy industry, and will be expected to: a.Develop and conduct Extension education programs that assist farmers to adopt profitable and environmentally sound agriculture systems. b.Design and conduct competitively funded research that includes work on current and emerging methods and technologies to help farmers achieve their goals with respect to profit and risk management. c.Cooperate with faculty and staff in the college of Agriculture and Life Sciences, UVM Extension, and agricultural industry leaders in the development and conduct of these programs. d.Collaborate closely with Vermont communities, agencies, and organizations in building a vital and sustainable working landscape. The education and research programs supported by this position may include work on: Farm record keeping Income and balance sheet preparation Analysis and interpretation of farm records Short and long term budget generation and cash flow planning Strategic business planning and financial modeling Risk management education programs Human resource management Sustainable farm management policy analysis QUALIFICATIONS: Essential: A Ph.D. in agricultural economics, applied economics, or closely related field is required. Desired: Experience in developing, leading and delivering extension educational programs. Degree specialization in farm management or production economics. Farm experience background, preferably in dairy. Demonstrated effective written and oral communication skills for professional and non-professional audiences. Analytic, quantitative and computer skills appropriate to position. Experience working in teams and on interdisciplinary projects. Demonstrated potential to obtain and manage grants and publish in refereed journals. Experience in policy analysis, particularly dairy production. APPLICANTS: Applicants should submit the following information to Professor Charles W. Bigalow, 101 Morrill Hall, University of Vermont, Burlington, Vt, 05405-0106: 1.A letter of application explaining interest in position and relevant skills and expertise. 2.A current curriculum vitae. 3.Three letters of reference. APPLICATION DEADLINE: November 30, 1999 Multi-cultural individuals and women are encouraged to apply. The University of Vermont is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity employer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Debra M. Heleba UVM Center for Sustainable Agriculture 590 Main Street, Room 200 Burlington, Vermont 05405 tel: (802) 656-0233 fax: (802) 656-8874 email: dheleba@zoo.uvm.edu http://www.uvm.edu/~susagctr To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 16:28:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26143 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08222 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:58:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout2.whowhere.com (nytoday.whowhere.com [209.1.236.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA08205 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by shared1-mail.whowhere.com; Tue Nov 16 12:56:01 1999 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:56:01 -0800 From: "Shana Stewart" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: education questions X-Sender-Ip: 209.138.137.15 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 341 In lieu of the recent discussion of SustAg and Liberal Arts, and the question of programs in organics Id like to ask a few questions of my own. Im looking around for graduate schools and I figured this list could help me out. Thanks ahead of time. 1. Are there any graduate programs in Env. Science, Studies and Policy in which you can focus on sustag and organics. (i.e. where people are already doing academic work on these issues and how society can be aware and benefit)? 2. How about learning about CSAs. Is the best way just to work for one? 3. Are there study abroad programs that focus on indigenous agriculture and the things they were/are doing right before "developed" country influence? It just seems like information is difficult to find. The first Ive heard about specific programs was Mr. Berghs Energy and Sustainable Agriculture Program in Minnesota. Maybe Im just looking in the wrong places. Id love some help. Shana shanastewart@eudoramail.com Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 16:34:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26303 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15947 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:10:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15935 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:10:36 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.72]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:08:28 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991116145441.007fd6c0@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:54:41 -0600 To: Subject: Choking Down Genetically Modified Food Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 342 Thanks to Misha for turning us on to this site. Here is a relevant new title that covers many topics we have just been discussing. Mike Miller >Subject: Choking Down Genetically Modified Food > >Information on this email course appears at the bottom. > >The Politics of Genetically Modified Food > >Fact or Fiction?: Genetically modified food will be vital to solving world >hunger by increasing crop yields. By incorporating natural pesticides it >can reduce the need for spraying herbicides and pesticides and add >diversity to the gene pool by expanding genetic combinations not possible >through natural evolution. Despite worries of unlikely experimental >mishaps, life science companies are out to do their best to help farmers >and feed the world. > >In "Against the Grain: Biotechnology and the Corporate Takeover of Your >Food," Marc Lappe and Britt Bailey reveal some deeply rooted problems with >this rosy assessment. > >1. Early evidence suggests that genetically modified crops have per acre >yields that are 10 percent lower, not higher than their unmodified >counterparts. > >2. By next year, Monsanto, one of the largest companies, is aiming to >have 100 percent of soybeans grown in the U.S. be genetically modified. >Such monoculture will destroy, not enhance genetic diversity. > >3. While some genetically modified crops such as corn have been altered so >that natural pesticides are built in, others like soybeans are genetically >modified to withstand more herbicide spraying -- herbicides made by >Monsanto. By selling the seeds, and forcing farmers to sign contracts to >use their herbicide, Monsanto ensures a monopoly and a lock on profits for >both seed and spray. > >4. Monsanto's herbicide, called Round-Up, can now be sprayed more heavily >thanks to the EPA, which tripled the amount of Round-Up residue permitted >to remain on crops. > >5. Crops that incorporate pesticides have other problems. Where once Bt >was seen as a natural pesticide safe for use by organic farmers because it >is an organism that occurs naturally in the soil, now widespread use of >the Bt gene inserted into crops such as potatoes may end its own >usefulness as bugs become resistant to it. But in the short term, it's a >great way to build profits -- for the so-called life science companies. >Dow chemical scientists estimate that, because of this growing resistance, >the usefulness of Bt will end within a decade. > >6. Monopoly almost always means the ability to raise prices, which will >further destroy small farms in favor of big ones. This decreases local >self-reliance -- a lynch pin in the fight against famine -- in favor of >corporate entities focused on maximizing investor profit. > >7. With no requirements for labeling, consumers have no choice but to eat >genetically modified food. Worse, epidemiological studies that look at >large populations, which are the only means by which health effects of >these modifications could be determined, can't be carried out--because >there's no way to determine who in a study has eaten what. > >These facts come from "Against the Grain: Biotechnology and the Corporate >Takeover of Your Food" by Marc Lappe and Britt Bailey. >http://www.commoncouragepress.com/against.html > >Also available is the Beyond the Book interview with the authors, "You Are >What They Want You to Eat," in which we ask them questions like: what's >wrong with Monsanto's good intentions; they may be trying to make a buck >but why do you posit ill will toward them?" Click >http://www.commoncouragepress.com/againstinterview.html > for a complete list of questions and how to order the transcript of their >answers. > >TOMORROW: Using Hot Air to Deny Global Warming > >This is the free Political Literacy Course from Common Courage Press: A >backbone of facts to stand up to spineless power. >Email 53, November 16 1999. Week 11: The New Math of Science + Corporate >Power >Homepage: http://www.commoncouragepress.com >To subscribe (or unsubscribe) for free: http://www.commoncouragepress.com >Chatroom: http://www.cartserver.com/bbs/a/3827/index.cgi >Feedback/Title suggestions: mailto:gbates@commoncouragepress.com > >Missed any? Course archive: >http://www.commoncouragepress.com/politlitarchive.html > >YES! This course is partly advertising for books. But it's also intended >as political fertilizer: feel free to spread it around! > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to PolitLit-unsubscribe@listbot.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 16 11:51:49 1999 -0500 Received: from net.bio.net (net.bio.net [198.94.52.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15879 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id IAA00890 for symbios-list; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id IAA00886; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:52:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911161652.IAA00886@net.bio.net> To: nobody@net.bio.net X-Really-To: symbios@net.bio.net Newsgroups: bionet.biology.symbiosis Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:45:08 -0800 From: CCHG Subject: Ecological Conversations Fellowship Announcement Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 343 Fellowship Announcement Ecological Conversations: Gender, Science and the Sacred A Rockefeller Foundation Humanities Fellowship Program at the Center for the Study of Women in Society, University of Oregon. This program invites scientists, scholars, theologians, writers, and grass-roots activists from different cultural and national contexts to share perspectives on the fundamental philosophical, evolutionary, political, and spiritual questions generated by the convergence of women's and environmental movements around the globe. First Year: Fellowships for the 1999-2000 academic year have been awarded to individuals from India, Israel, Zimbabwe, Canada and the United States. Although all will address issues of gender and ecology, their backgrounds span literature, environmental studies, agricultural biology, sociology, and Jewish mysticism. Detailed descriptions of the first-year fellows and their proposed research projects can be found on the program web site. Second Year: In 2000-2001, we welcome proposals addressing issues of scientific practice. Themes of particular interest are: the history and contemporary understanding of evolutionary theory and natural history; how scientific concepts and research are translated into public environmental discourse; ecofeminist visions of science and technology; new approaches to issues of reproduction and population; the history and practice of indigenous sciences; and studies of new scientific paradigms. Third Year: During 2001-2002, the conversation will focus on questions situated at the intersection of the ecological and the sacred. We are interested in research or practice addressing the integration of scientific and sacred epistemologies in investigations of ecology, as well as alternative conceptions of relationships to place, land, and other living beings. Application deadlines: January 17, 2000 (2001) Contact: Lynne Fessenden Center for the Study of Women in Society 1201 University of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403-1201 Phone (541)346-5399 Fax (541)346-5096 E-mail: csws@oregon.uoregon.edu Web Site: http://ecocon.uoregon.edu From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 16:42:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26522 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19654 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:18:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (gaes.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19585 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sareace2.griffin.peachnet.edu (sareace2.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.65]) by gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA25267 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:15:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911162115.QAA25267@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gwen Roland" To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:09:47 +0500 Subject: Southern SARE PDP workshop X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 344 Social Sustainability: An Agriculture Where People Matter is the theme of the Fifth Annual Southern Region SARE Professional DevelopmentProgram Workshop. Over the years this annual gathering scheduled back-to-back with the Southern SAWG Trade Show and Conference has taken on the feeling of a family reunion under the beautiful live oaks and blue sky of Jekyll in January. If you go once, you'll never want to miss it again. Get the whole scoop from our web site below. http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/2000wkshp.html Gwen Roland Southern Region SARE 1109 Experiment Street Griffin, GA 30223 Ph: (770) 412-4786 Fax: (770) 412-4789 http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 16:43:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26533 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18820 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:16:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18725 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:16:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: FW: VEG-PROD> Food Safety Workshop at Sturbridge MA Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:16:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id QAA18736 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 Of interest RE: HACCP--although I don't see that word mentioned. Andy -----Original Message----- From: Anusuya Rangarajan [mailto:ar47@cornell.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 2:44 PM To: veg-prod@reeusda.gov; The multiple recipients of the list Cc: rbg2@cornell.edu; rbg2@cornell.edu; mpp3@cornell.edu Subject: VEG-PROD> Food Safety Workshop at Sturbridge MA Dear colleagues, Below is an announcement for a food safety workshop being conducted at Sturbridge, MA, just prior to the NE Vegetable and Berry Grower Conference. The curriculum and materials being developed for the workshop are available to any extension specialists interested in this type of program. This workshop is part of a national effort to increase grower awareness of potential microbial contamination risks from the seed to shelf. A web site will soon be available for you to evaluate materials as they are developed. Thanks and hope to see you there!! Anu Rangarajan Reducing Microbial Risks in Fruits and Vegetables Grown in the Northeast Through Good Agricultural Practices December 13, 1999 Sturbridge Host Hotel, Massachusetts Before the New England Vegetable and Berry Conference gets underway, a pre-conference workshop on Reducing Microbial Risks in Fruits and Vegetables has been scheduled for Monday afternoon, December 13th at the Sturbridge Host Hotel. As you know, there have been some highly publicized food-borne illness outbreaks attributed to fruits and vegetables. A Northeast team of vegetable and fruit production, post harvest handling and food safety extension and research specialists has developed a one-half day program to address these concerns by sharing current research and recommendations of good agricultural practices to minimize risks. Cost for this program is $10, payable at the workshop registration. Please pre-register via email (ar47@cornell.edu) or phone (607-255-1780) by December 9, 1999, to assure that you will receive a copy of the supplementary educational materials. Please mark your calendar and plan to attend this important session. The goals of this interactive workshop are to provide growers in the Northeast with: ¨ Information on contamination of raw produce with harmful microorganisms during growing, harvesting, and processing, good agricultural practices, and the principles of safe food handling and processing ¨ Knowledge and skills to understand and implement good agricultural practices and good manufacturing practices in their operations Agenda 12:00 p.m. Workshop Registration 1:00 p.m. Welcome - Introductions 1:15 p.m. The Importance of Food Safety to Agricultural Businesses and the Status of the Microbial Safety of Fruits and Vegetables 1:45 p.m. Food Microbiology 101: Microorganisms of Concern in Production Agriculture 2:15 p.m. Strategies for Minimizing Microbial Hazards using Good Agricultural Practices ¨ Manure use ¨ Water 3:00 p.m. Refreshment Break 3:30 p.m. Harvest and Post-Harvest Considerations ¨ Field Worker Hygiene ¨ Field Transportation ¨ Packing House Sanitation 4:15 p.m. Getting the Message Across: Effective Use of Educational Resource Materials on the Farm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 17:14:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27328 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08093 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:47:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08079 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0152559C@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:44:27 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Nov 99 16:44:48 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Nov 99 16:44:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:44:18 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: paying the piper In-reply-to: <199911161107.GAA17662@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <108322142F87@agecon.uga.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 >From Klaus: > "there is hardly anything in this world, which cannot be made a > little worse and a little cheaper by someone. people, who only > look for the price, will become the fair pray of such > machinations. it is unwise to pay too much, but it's even worse > to pay too little. if you pay too much, you are loosing some > money - that's all. but if you pay to little, you often are > loosing all the money, because the product, you paid for might > not be able to fulfill it's intended task at all. the law of > economy forbids, that you get much value for little money. if you > take the cheapest offer, you will need to add some money for the > possible risk of worthlessness you are taking. and if you do so, > you very often will have enough money to pay for the more > expensive, better and more sustainable product. This reminds me of some expressions learned while living in the Caribbean: "El barato sale caro" = "That which is cheap turns out to be expensive" "El vago trabaja doble" = "The lazy one ends up working twice as hard." And then there's the economist's favorite: "there's no free lunch." I had a boyfriend once who taught me, "it's better to pay for things up front, because you always end up paying for it one way or another in the end." That was a nice translation of the free lunch idea. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 17:20:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27437 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09644 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:51:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA09628 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:35:53 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:44:48 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU, WILSONDO@phibred.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 347 As I understand the chlorpyrifos risk assessment and discussion the residues showing up in urine samples are not chlorpyrifos but rather a metabolite 3,5,6-trichlro-2-pyridinol(3,5,6-TCP). As Dale indicated these concentrations most of which range between 1 and 8 micrograms of 3,5,6-TCP per liter are very low. Likewise the average exposure levels to chlorpyrifos estimated from these bio-monitoring studies range from 0.12 to 0.5 micrograms per kilogram per day. Though I could not put my hands on documentation I think that the registrant, Dow AgroSciences LLC, also believes that the 3,5,6-TCP in urine may have sources other than chlorpyrifos and possibly other than pesticides. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 17:24:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27518 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15250 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:00:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umc-mail01.missouri.edu (umc-mail01.missouri.edu [128.206.10.216]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15168 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by umc-mail01.missouri.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:57:58 -0600 Message-ID: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953B8F@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> From: "Webb, Kevin" To: "'Shana Stewart'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: education questions Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:57:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 348 Shana- per number two on your list: Having worked on a CSA farm for several years, I would argue that there is no better way to learn about them then to work for one. Many have varying levels of opportunity-- internship, active member/volunteer, hired help, etc. UW Madison and the community in general, have a number of opportunities to be involved in local ag and CSA's. CHeck out: http://www.wisc.edu/cias/ Good luck, Kevin Kevin Webb Food Circles Networking Project Department of Rural Sociology University of Missouri-Columbia 105 Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 (573) 882-3776 [573] 882=1473 (fax) webbk@missouri.edu -----Original Message----- From: Shana Stewart [mailto:shanastewart@eudoramail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 2:56 PM To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: education questions In lieu of the recent discussion of SustAg and Liberal Arts, and the question of programs in organics Id like to ask a few questions of my own. Im looking around for graduate schools and I figured this list could help me out. Thanks ahead of time. 1. Are there any graduate programs in Env. Science, Studies and Policy in which you can focus on sustag and organics. (i.e. where people are already doing academic work on these issues and how society can be aware and benefit)? 2. How about learning about CSAs. Is the best way just to work for one? 3. Are there study abroad programs that focus on indigenous agriculture and the things they were/are doing right before "developed" country influence? It just seems like information is difficult to find. The first Ive heard about specific programs was Mr. Berghs Energy and Sustainable Agriculture Program in Minnesota. Maybe Im just looking in the wrong places. Id love some help. Shana shanastewart@eudoramail.com Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 17:33:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27677 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20735 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:10:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.56.248]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20669 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from REXD.uark.edu ([130.184.56.55]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id QAA00862; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:07:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911162207.QAA00862@ncatark.uark.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rex Dufour" To: "Shana Stewart" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:03:18 -0500 Subject: Re: education questions Reply-to: rexd@ncatark.uark.edu CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 Shana, ATTRA has a listing of schools that might be useful to you at: http://www.attra.org/attra-rl/susagorg.html The National Ag. Library also has a listing...Rex Dufour > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:56:01 -0800 > From: "Shana Stewart" > Subject: education questions > Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com:80) > In lieu of the recent discussion of SustAg and Liberal > Arts, and the question of programs in organics Id like to > ask a few questions of my own. Im looking around for > graduate schools and I figured this list could help me > out. Thanks ahead of time. 1. Are there any graduate > programs in Env. Science, Studies and Policy in which you > can focus on sustag and organics. (i.e. where people are > already doing academic work on these issues and how > society can be aware and benefit)? 2. How about learning > about CSAs. Is the best way just to work for one? 3. > Are there study abroad programs that focus on indigenous > agriculture and the things they were/are doing right > before "developed" country influence? It just seems like > information is difficult to find. The first Ive heard > about specific programs was Mr. Berghs Energy and > Sustainable Agriculture Program in Minnesota. Maybe Im > just looking in the wrong places. Id love some help. > Shana shanastewart@eudoramail.com > > > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free > Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the > command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest > format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To > Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the > command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail =================================================== Rex Dufour Associate Project Manager Approriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) P.O. Box 3657 Fayetteville, AR 72702 (501) 442-9824 rexd@ncatark.uark.edu, http://www.attra.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 17:46:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27879 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23451 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:16:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23418 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.65] [199.175.106.82] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11nqr1-0006hNC for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:17:17 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: ethics and morality Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 350 Mike Miller, Glad to hear you insist on society, the community, looking after members who cannot, for whatever reason, care for themselves. It can be something as simple as ignorance. The problem, as you briefly allude to it, is one of distribution, not production, of food. In our valley we have two small stores distributing mostly organic foods. Both are connected to farms, one large and just getting off the ground, the other well established and demeter certified. Both stores operate weekly box programs. One store has customers come in each week to pick up their box of fresh organic produce. This has created a social side because customers have gotten to know one another and often stop to share a cup of organic coffee or tea with baked goods fresh from the farm's ovens. They also carry a lot of locally produced processed products. The other operation delivers all their boxes and they cover a considerable area. They have a catalog that covers the food spectrum from whole grains to processed foods. They are just beginning to market pork and beef. They have an acreage a little larger then yours Mike and are an important experiment for our valley. It is a former dairy farm. We have about 46 dairy farms left. Because of our supply management system these are all family sized farms, milking from perhaps 30 to 150 cows. The "quota" or supply management system has allowed us to build up a very healthy, decentralized dairy industry. Here on Vancouver Island the dairy processing plant is owned by a co-op of dairy farmers. But the whole system is under seige by NAFTA and WTO and is headed off the cliff. We are very concerned what will happen to the 100-200 acre farms when the dairy farmers sell out or go broke. The land is protected by the Agricultural Land Reserve but the developers will be nipping at the Land Commission's heels to get it out. The farm mentioned above sold it's milk quota and, with three generations living and working on the farm, are trying to make it a completely organic operation, growing everything from berries to beef. Both of these box programs are ideal for people who can't or would rather not produce their own. For me producing our own and sharing, swapping, and selling to neighbours (like wine for salmon) is part of the spiritual aspects of a sustainable life style. Ideally the "community" should include everyone and have a place for everyone. But we probably shouldn't let the chemical crowd bleed away our energy contesting their silly arguments. Better to stick to our busy and positive lives. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 18:57:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28944 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14938 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:39:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14870 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.106] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:36:37 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:34:50 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14732.991116@acnet.net> To: Ted Rogers CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[3]: HACCP -Reply In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 351 Hi Ted, I'm glad we agree. It's good to have the USDA on my side. Systems approaches are rightfully nothing more than a backup for people who live and breathe what they do - the commitment you mention below. Dehumanizing anything is dangerous. (The definition was funny). DH ------------------ Tuesday, November 16, 1999, 9:48:40 AM, you wrote: Ted> Thank you Doug, I've been having a real hard time with this whole Ted> string. HACCP while a wonderful systematic approach to problem Ted> solving is of little value to the good manager. The good manager, Ted> whether a small farmer or the management team of a large Ted> processor already has a HACCP like system in place. Ted> Those that teach HACCP and promote it in the first lecture point Ted> out that it requires a top down/bottom up commitment or it just Ted> doesn't work. Ted> HACCP may in some cases make a good operation a little better, in Ted> no way can the forced application of HACCP make a poor operation Ted> better. Ted> The joke going around among FSIS (Food Safety Inspection Ted> Service(USDA poultry and meat Inspection)) Inspectors is: HACCP = Ted> "Have a Cup of Coffee and Pray". Ted> Best, Ted> Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 19:50:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29462 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18416 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:34:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18373 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from abc ([128.253.251.239]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23849; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:32:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991116192312.00c37160@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: cm52@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:32:14 -0500 To: From: Chris McCullum Subject: Two positions on ag biotech - IFPRI News and Views Cc: dsfs@lists.umbc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 352 >FYI. > >>>In the September 1999 issue of, "News and Views: A 20/20 Vision for >>>Food, Agriculture, and the Environment, " from IFPRI (International Food >>>Policy Research Institute), there are two distinct viewpoints on >>>agricultural biotechnology presented. One viewpoint is by A.F. >>>Krattiger, Executive Director of the International Service for the >>>Acquisition of Agri-Biotech Applications, Cornell University, U.S.A. and >>>the other by F.L. Valente, M.D., Secretary General of the Global Forum >>>on Sustainable Food and Nutritional Security, Brazil. These 2 viewpoints >>>have some very interesting areas of divergence, and they make for some >>>interesting discussion around some of the most fundamental questions >>>concerning biotechnology, particularly as they relate to the issue of >>>global food security. If and when time permits, I highly recommend >>>reading both of them. Chris McCullum To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 16 23:24:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02320 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA27026 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:05:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26986 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (51.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.81]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA08525 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:02:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911170402.WAA08525@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: do you know about this hunger strike Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:04:54 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 Kate Smith sent: > On November 7, 1999, Robert Cohen began a hunger strike to draw > attention to the fact that America's milk and dairy products are now > hazardous to consumers' health. Hundreds of people around the world > have already joined Robert Cohen on his hunger strike, and there will be > thousands more. Nov. 7 hmmm? Now it is Nov. 16. and this is the first I've heard about it. No newspaper coverage, no TV, no news magazines, etc. Must either be a vast conspiracy by the media, or Mr. Cohen greatly overestimated the public's concern for his health. Hundreds more (maybe thousands) are joining in? Uh huh, sure. No, I think Mr. Cohen (if he exists) would be much more useful in the fight by some to bring our foodstuffs back to a more "natural" state if he joined the several elegant speakers which I have enjoyed reading since joining sanet (regardless of whether I always agree). I view people like Mr. Cohen as I do the folks who hopped onto that comet last year - one less nut using up air. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 00:19:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03048 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29295 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:56:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29280 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (51.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.81]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA16798 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:54:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911170454.WAA16798@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: Paulownia for alley cropping Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:56:42 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 Kline said: It was, after all, government agencies that encouraged people to use kudzu for erosion control in the South and multiflora rose as a fence replacement in the Midwest. I would not take too much comfort becasue paulowinia was recommended in a gov't publication but would check out the plant's behavior in your particular area. Well, yes, that is true, almost all of it. However, I would be cautious about characterizing any and all government publications and recommendations as suspect, or worse, as ultimately wrongheaded and dangerous. If you really look at the track record for government agencies and programs such as USDA's plant material centers and the Agriculture Research Service I believe you would find an incredibly larger number of winners than the few losers that have managed to slip through the cracks. And, it is especially because of goofs such as kudzu and multiflora rose that such government entities take even greater pains to prove a plant's usefullness vs being a problem child. By all means, check a plant out thoroughly before committing to it, but government recommedations should be considered as a good source of information instead of a suspicious one. Hey, government employees gotta live here too. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 00:23:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03089 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19405 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:42:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19310 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:42:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (51.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.81]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA14728 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:39:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911170439.WAA14728@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: Re: Delivery failure notification Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:42:26 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 355 I don't understand the subject line title, but ..... Paulownias have been in this country, especially the South for more than half a century. If they are invasive, parasitic, or whatever they sure are taking a long time about it. Now take kudzu. Even with its good traits (and there are several), it very quickly became a bane in this country. Even worse is the multiflora rose. It has fewer (any?) good traits and more bad ones than kudzu (at least herbivores will eat and thrive on kudzu). Both came on fast after introduction and very quickly were recognized as pests. Autumn Olive is another, recent example of a good idea gone bad. Paulownia just doesn't make the grade as far as plant villany goes. From the standpoint of value per acre, it is probably has one of the best per acre returns of any legal crop in the country, especially when comparing tree crops. From what I have observed over the past 20 years though, it is pretty much a wimp as an invasive plant. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 01:49:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03848 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20133 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:25:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20032 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cefni.aber.ac.uk (cefni.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.40]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08867 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pciifa.wir.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.76.78] helo=nhl) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11nyTI-0004XK-00; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:21:36 +0000 Message-ID: <001501bf30c4$307c77d0$4e4c7c90@wir.aber.ac.uk> From: "Nic Lampkin" To: "ecolagric" , "sanet" Subject: Fw: last call for the conference Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:22:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 356 From: Christophe DAVID Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 5:35 PM Subject: last call for the conference Dear colleagues, A conference on Organic Agriculture will be held in Lyon (FRANCE) the 6-7-8 december. You can find the programme and abstract on our WEB SITE WWW.AGRENV.MCGILL.CA/AGRECON/FRANCE. The registration will be finish the 1st December. Yours sincerely Christophe DAVID ---------------------------------------------------------- Christophe DAVID, ISARA -Pôle environnement et production agricole 31, Place Bellecour - F - 69288 LYON CEDEX 02 Tel (33) 78 92 69 72 Fax (33) 78 92 69 75 Email david@isara.fr conference on organic agriculture in Lyon: WWW.AGRENV.MCGILL.CA/AGRECON/FRANCE ---------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From TROGERS@ars.usda.gov Wed Nov 17 09:31:04 1999 Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA07815 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:17:44 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:26:31 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 357 Yes you are correct and I promise to make this one of my millennium resolutions, the new REE web site that Andy is setting up looks like it is going to help me here. This was also correct thirty years ago when I began my personal rEvolution into wholistic thinking. Unfortunately the "conscious elite" is as small and ineffectual today as it was thirty years ago. I would observe that the public policy skills are so low as to be non-existent. Certainly the "organic" fiasco continues to bear this out. I'm sorry Lawrence, this use of the word natural in association with or as a descriptor of agriculture drives me up a wall. I have done it myself in the past, but really, think about it. We invented agriculture 10,000 years ago and slowly began the evolution of culture built upon it. There is absolutely nothing natural about agriculture. It is an elegant synthetic construct. The critical issue from a wholistic and sustainable perspective is that we try to understand how to harmonize modern agricultural systems with what we are beginning to learn from nature as we invent the science of ecology. Best, Ted From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 10:00:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08474 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18125 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:33:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from comet.connix.com (root@comet.connix.com [198.69.10.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18110 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from kim (entomol.connix.com [205.246.104.21]) by comet.connix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA17897 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:30:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003801bf3108$514a81c0$1568f6cd@kim> From: "Kimberly Stoner" To: "SANET-mg" Subject: An opportunity to do something about chlorpyrifos Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:30:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF30DE.67359120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF30DE.67359120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sanet: A snippet sent to me from an email message sent by a friend whose son = has multiple chemical sensitivity after an exposure to Dursban in his = school: "To Those who have been poisoned with Dursban or another op and others who want to submit comments on the regulation of chorpyrifos: This is our first opportunity to make a comment on the Preliminary Risk Assessment for Chlorpyrifos (Dursban) as it has been published in the federal registry. The website is: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/chlorpyrifos.htm=20 Be forewarned, it's long, techinical and complicated. But don't be scared off, because, as long as you PUT THE DOCKET NUMBER ON YOUR COMMENT, it will count." Maybe it is time to quit debating among ourselves and talk to the rest = of the world. Kimberly Stoner CT Agricultural Experiment Station P.O. Box 1106 123 Huntington Street New Haven, CT 06504 203-974-8480 Kimberly.Stoner@po.state.ct.us ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF30DE.67359120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sanet:
A snippet sent = to me from an=20 email message sent by a friend whose son has multiple chemical = sensitivity after=20 an exposure to Dursban in his school:
 
"To Those who have been poisoned with Dursban or another = op
and=20 others
who want to submit comments on the regulation=20 of
chorpyrifos:

This is our first opportunity to make a = comment on=20 the
Preliminary Risk
Assessment for Chlorpyrifos (Dursban) as it = has=20 been
published in the
federal registry.  The website = is:

http://www.epa= .gov/pesticides/op/chlorpyrifos.htm=20

Be forewarned, it's long, techinical and complicated.  = But
don't=20 be
scared off, because, as long as you PUT THE DOCKET NUMBER=20 ON
YOUR
COMMENT, it will count."
 
Maybe it is time to quit debating among ourselves and talk to the = rest of=20 the world.

 
Kimberly Stoner
CT Agricultural = Experiment=20 Station
P.O. Box 1106
123 Huntington Street
New Haven, CT=20 06504
203-974-8480
Kimberly.Stoner@po.state.c= t.us
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF30DE.67359120-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 10:00:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08488 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20439 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:39:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (gaes.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20289 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from sareace2.griffin.peachnet.edu (sareace2.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.65]) by gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA07255 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:37:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911171437.JAA07255@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gwen Roland" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:31:40 +0500 Subject: Add Farmer and Chef, Mix Well X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 359 Everyone benefits when farmers and chefs find each other. The winter issue of Common Ground features a Professional Develpment Project led by Karen Armstrong-Cummings that helps them do just that. The story and more can be found at: http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/99winter.html Gwen Roland Southern Region SARE 1109 Experiment Street Griffin, GA 30223 Ph: (770) 412-4786 Fax: (770) 412-4789 http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 10:07:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08668 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18135 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:33:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18122 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:17:44 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:26:31 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 360 Yes you are correct and I promise to make this one of my millennium resolutions, the new REE web site that Andy is setting up looks like it is going to help me here. This was also correct thirty years ago when I began my personal rEvolution into wholistic thinking. Unfortunately the "conscious elite" is as small and ineffectual today as it was thirty years ago. I would observe that the public policy skills are so low as to be non-existent. Certainly the "organic" fiasco continues to bear this out. I'm sorry Lawrence, this use of the word natural in association with or as a descriptor of agriculture drives me up a wall. I have done it myself in the past, but really, think about it. We invented agriculture 10,000 years ago and slowly began the evolution of culture built upon it. There is absolutely nothing natural about agriculture. It is an elegant synthetic construct. The critical issue from a wholistic and sustainable perspective is that we try to understand how to harmonize modern agricultural systems with what we are beginning to learn from nature as we invent the science of ecology. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 17 03:34:39 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA04739 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 03:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29169 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 03:16:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA29032 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 03:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id QAA05141; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:15:46 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA03200; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:20:04 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911170220.KAA03200@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 17 Nov 99 07:05:11 Subject: RE: chlorpyrifos To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 >I think you are setting up a straw-man argument here. These bad >habits are not analogous to chemical residues in your foods, because >the residues have no detectable effects. "No detectable effects" is very different from "no effect". We have a long list of chemicals which the industry insisted had "no detectable effect" on people but which turned out later to cause cancers, mutations, or disrupted development of the baby in pregnant mothers. >Obviously you see this as an ethical issue. Instead of an emotional >appeal, I would like to see a well-reasoned ethical argument. We don't want the industry putting foreign chemicals into our bodies without our knowledge and consent, whether these chemicals have any detectable effect or not. (This is exactly the same ethical reason why we want GMOs labelled.) If you still can't appreciate see the ethical issue, I doubt if you ever will. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 17 06:31:42 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA05714 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA15564 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:06:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15439 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id TAA11481; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:26:50 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id TAA06002; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:20:31 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911171120.TAA06002@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 17 Nov 99 18:27:55 Subject: RE: do you know about this hunger strike To: mikerichardson@multipro.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 362 >Nov. 7 hmmm? Now it is Nov. 16. and this is the first I've heard about it. > No newspaper coverage, no TV, no news magazines, etc. Must either be a >vast conspiracy by the media, or Mr. Cohen greatly overestimated the >public's concern for his health. Hundreds more (maybe thousands) are >joining in? Uh huh, sure. > >No, I think Mr. Cohen (if he exists) would be much more useful in the fight >by some to bring our foodstuffs back to a more "natural" state if he joined >the several elegant speakers which I have enjoyed reading since joining >sanet (regardless of whether I always agree). I view people like Mr. Cohen >as I do the folks who hopped onto that comet last year - one less nut using >up air. > >Son of Richard That's what people said of Mahatma Gandhi too. Sometimes, it takes a little time to determine who is really the nut... I will give Mr. Cohen the benefit of the doubt. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 17 10:07:26 1999 -0500 Received: from fastnet.magiclink.com (fastnet.magiclink.com [199.104.22.8]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08664 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:07:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911171507.KAA08664@luna.oit.unc.edu> Received: from 199.104.22.2.magiclink.com [216.190.240.10] by fastnet.magiclink.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A756C75009C; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:10:30 MDT Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Outrider" To: "Farmer's Market Online" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:05:24 +0000 X-Distribution: Bulk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Farmer's Market Online V5#19 Food Edition Reply-to: manager@FarmersMarketOnline.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id KAA08664 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 363 FARMER'S MARKET ONLINE Vol. 5 #19 Copyright _ 1999 Outrider News Service. "All Rights Reserved" mailto:manager@farmersmarketonline.com http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com Published weekly in two editions: Food (Wed), Farm/Garden (Sat-Sun) November 17, 1999 Food Edition CONTENTS Guestbook Shopping Lists Booths __Services __Produce __Meat and Fish __Specialty Foods __Books and Publications Bulletin Board __Buying and Storing Turkey __Turkey Made Easy __RECIPE: Traditional Holiday Turkey __RECIPE: Quick Roasted Holiday Turkey __RECIPE: Herbed Turkey Breast __RECIPE: Simply Delicious Holiday Turkey __RECIPE: Two-At-Once Roasted Turkey Breast __Food Quiz __Market Poll _________________________________________________ MARKET SPONSOR: Outrider Books _________________________________________________ Check out our newest Cookbooks... at http://www.webcom.com/outbooks/cookbook.html Betty Crocker's Healthy New Choices. $19.95 postpaid. The Dreaded Broccoli Cookbook $19.95 postpaid Home Cooked Culture by Terese Allen $14.95 postpaid Mexican Cookbook by Erna Fergusson $8.95 postpaid or browse our list of used and antiquarian titles at... http://www.abebooks.com/home/OUTRIDER/ Prevention's The Healthy Cook, 1997. $21.95 Blue Bonnet's What's-for-Lunch Cook Book ,1968. $9.95 ppd The Madison Avenue Cook Book, 1962. $7.95 postpaid The Cordon Bleu Cook Book, 1947. $9.95 postpaid. _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ___GUESTBOOK___ http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/guests.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Date sent: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:45:55 -0500 (EST) From: "William Holmes" I want to research hot peppers and purchase a variety of seeds for next year's garden. Date sent: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:30:08 -0400 From: Bessman@knownet.net This is a great opportunity for everyone. I hope it continues to grow. _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ___SHOPPING LISTS___ http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/shopping.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ CAN'T FIND WHAT YOU NEED? List it here. This space is available to shoppers seeking a specific item or items. Up to six items can be listed. Request shopping list form from manager@farmersmarketonline.com or submit pertinent information. CANDIED WALNUTS Date sent: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:41:09 -0400 I'm looking for a source of candied walnuts. soysue@home.com _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ___THE BOOTHS___ http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/booths.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Services http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/services.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ NUTRITION ANALYSIS and FDA Format Labels http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/soysue.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Produce http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/produce.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ BEANS grown in southern Idaho http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/beans.htm ORGANIC POTATOES grown in Idaho http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/potatoes.htm RIPE-N-POCKETS, made in Falls Church, Virginia http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/ripen.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Meat and Fish http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/meatfish.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ BEEF, Home-grown Angus from Waterville, Minnesota http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/windmill.htm BEEF, Steaks from Goodhue, Minnesota http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/CattleKings.htm SMOKED TURKEY from Oak Hill, Ohio http://www.farmersMarketOnline.com/turkey.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Specialty Foods http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/specialty.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ BBQ SAUCE from North Riverside, Illinois http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/bbqsauce.htm GOAT CHEESE from Haynesville, Virginia http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/goatchez.htm SEA SALT from the coast of Brittany, France http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/seasalt.htm SOUP MIXES from Port Orchard, Washington http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/chiqui.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Books and Publications http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/books.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ACTION PHONICS developed by Janice Myers http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/phonics.htm BACKROAD HOME by Donald J. Berg http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/backroad.htm BARNS AND BACKBUILDINGS by Donald J. Berg http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/barns.htm DYNAMIC FARMERS' MARKETING by Jeff Ishee http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/dynamic.htm THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COUNTRY LIVING by Carla Emery http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/country.htm THE GOOD WOODCUTTER'S GUIDE by Dave Johnson http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/goodwood.htm THE GREAT RANCH COOKBOOK by Gwen Ashley Walters http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/grtranch.htm GROWING AND SELLING HERBS by Outrider Books http://www.webcom.com/outbooks/farm.html GROWING PRODUCE FAMILY STYLE, by Raymond Yoder. http://www.webcom.com/outbooks/farm.html GROWING PROFITS by Michael and Linda Harlan http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/growprof.htm RURAL DELIVERY by Michael Hofferber http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/Rural.htm SMALL SCALE BEEF PRODUCTION HANDBOOK http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/smalbeef.htm YOU CAN FARM by Joel Salatin http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/youcanfarm.htm _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ___THE BULLETIN BOARD___ http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/bulletin.htm _________________________________________________ __BUYING AND STORING TURKEY http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/farmkitc.htm There are many different types of turkeys on the market today: fresh, frozen, self-basting, and prestuffed. They will be identified on the label. The label will also indicate a USDA grade mark - usually grade A. Turkeys that are grade A are meaty, have a well developed layer of fat in the skin and are practically free from pin feathers, bruises, cuts, tears on the breast and legs, and broken bones. For more tender, mild flavored turkeys, look for the words "young" turkey (usually 4-6 months of age). There are also young turkeys labeled fryer-roaster turkey (usually under 16 weeks of age). The sex designation of "hen" or "tom" is optional on the label and is an indication of size rather than the tenderness of a turkey. When buying a turkey you can figure on one pound per person. This will provide generous servings with enough left over for second-day dishes. Continued at http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/farmkitc.htm __TURKEY MADE EASY http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/farmkitc.htm You can make stuffing on the stovetop, buy frozen vegetable side dishes and grab last minute supermarket salads and relishes to fashion a holiday dinner. But bottom line, it's the turkey and gravy that are the centerpiece of the holiday meal. __RECIPE: Traditional Holiday Turkey 8 to 24 pound turkey, thawed Vegetable oil PREHEAT oven to 325°F. Line a roasting pan, at least 2 inches deep, with foil; set aside. REMOVE neck and giblets from turkey; rinse turkey and pat dry. Place turkey in foil-lined roasting pan. If desired, loosely stuff turkey. Brush with oil. Insert meat thermometer into thickest part of thigh, not touching bone. MAKE a foil tent by placing a sheet of foil over turkey, leaving 1 inch between top of turkey and foil tent for heat circulation. Crimp foil onto long sides of pan. ROAST turkey until meat thermometer reads 180°F. For stuffed turkey, add 30 minutes to roasting time. To brown turkey, remove foil tent after 1 hour of roasting. The approximate roasting times are: 2 1/2 to 3 hours for 8 to 12 pound turkey; 3 to 3 1/2 hours for 12 to 16 pound turkey; 3 1/2 to 4 hours for 16 to 20 pound turkey; 4 to 5 hours for 20 to 24 pound turkey. For easy slicing, cover turkey with foil and let stand 15 minutes. Makes 8 to 32 servings. __RECIPE: Quick Roasted Holiday Turkey 8 to 24 pound turkey, thawed Vegetable oil PREHEAT oven to 450°F. Remove neck and giblets from turkey; rinse turkey and pat dry. If desired, loosely stuff turkey. Brush with oil. TEAR off a sheet of foil 2 1/2 times longer than turkey. Place turkey lengthwise in center of foil sheet. CLOSE foil loosely by overlapping the ends. Turn up short sides of foil to hold in juices. Do not seal airtight. Place foil-wrapped turkey in roasting pan at least 2 inches deep. Insert meat thermometer through foil into thickest part of inner thigh, not touching bone. ROAST turkey until meat thermometer reads 180°F. For stuffed turkey, add 30 minutes to roasting time. To brown turkey, open and turn back foil 30 minutes before roasting is finished. The approximate roasting times are: 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 hours for 8 to 12 pound turkey; 2 1/4 to 2 3/4 hours for 12 to 16 pound turkey; 2 3/4 to 3 1/4 hours for 16 to 20 pound turkey; 3 1/4 to 3 3/4 hours for 20 to 24 pound turkey. For easy slicing, cover turkey with foil and let stand 15 minutes. Makes 8 to 32 servings. __RECIPE: Herbed Turkey Breast 1 Reynoldsr Hot BagsT Foil Bag, large size 1/4 cup water 1 tablespoon flour 1 1/2 teaspoons dried rosemary 1 1/2 teaspoons dried thyme 1 1/2 teaspoons dried tarragon 5 to 7 pound bone-in turkey breast Seasoned salt and pepper PREHEAT grill to medium-high or oven to 450°F. OPEN foil bag. Lightly spray inside of foil bag with nonstick cooking spray. Combine water and flour; pour inside foil bag. Combine rosemary, thyme and tarragon. Rub over turkey breast. Sprinkle with seasoned salt and pepper. Place turkey breast in foil bag. TO SEAL, double fold open end of foil bag. Place foil bag in a 1-inch deep pan. TO COOK, slide foil bag onto grill or leave foil bag in supporting pan and place in oven. GRILL 1 to 1 1/2 hours in covered grill OR BAKE 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hours in supporting pan in oven. Meat thermometer reads 170°F when done. USE OVEN MITTS to cut open foil bag with a sharp knife. Carefully fold back top of foil bag, allowing steam to escape. Let stand 15 minutes before slicing. Makes 10 to 12 servings. __RECIPE: Simply Delicious Holiday Turkey 1 Reynoldsr Oven Bag, turkey size (19"x23 1/2") 1 tablespoon flour 2 stalks celery, sliced 1 medium onion, sliced 12 to 24 pound turkey, thawed Vegetable oil PREHEAT oven to 350°F. SHAKE flour in oven bag; place in roasting pan at least 2 inches deep. ADD vegetables to oven bag. Remove neck and giblets from turkey. Rinse turkey; pat dry. Lightly stuff with your favorite stuffing recipe, if desired. Brush turkey with oil. Place turkey in oven bag on top of vegetables. CLOSE oven bag with nylon tie; cut six 1/2-inch slits in top. Insert meat thermometer through slit in bag into thickest part of inner thigh, not touching bone. BAKE 2 to 2 1/2 hours for a 12 to 16 pound turkey; 2 1/2 to 3 hours for a 16 to 20 pound turkey; 3 to 3 1/2 hours for a 20 to 24 pound turkey or until meat thermometer reads 180°F. Add 1/2 hour for stuffed turkey. Let stand in bag 15 minutes. If turkey sticks to oven bag, gently loosen bag from turkey before opening oven bag. Makes 12 to 32 servings. __RECIPE: Two-At-Once Roasted Turkey Breast 1 Reynoldsr Oven Bag, turkey size (19"x23 1/2") 1 tablespoon flour 2 medium onions, cut in eighths 4 stalks celery, sliced 2 bone-in turkey breasts, thawed (4 to 8 pounds each) Vegetable oil Seasoned salt, pepper PREHEAT oven to 350°F. SHAKE flour in oven bag; place in roasting pan at least 2 inches deep. ADD vegetables to oven bag. Brush turkey breasts with oil; sprinkle with seasoned salt and pepper. Place turkey breasts in oven bag on top of vegetables. CLOSE oven bag with nylon tie; cut six 1/2-inch slits in top. BAKE until meat thermometer reads 170°F, 1 1/2 to 2 hours. For easy slicing, let stand in oven bag 10 minutes. Makes 8 to 20 servings. SOURCE: The Reynolds Kitchens www.reynoldskitchens.com __FOOD QUIZ http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/foodquiz.htm What Am I? I am the first seasoning whose use was ever recorded. I date back as far as 3000 B.C. Assyria. There is some confusion about my place of birth. Some believe Africa, others say India. I have been a popular mainstay in China for over 2000 years, but I can't get residency there, they still consider me a foreigner! I was brought to America by African slaves and have since become very popular in southern cooking. - Caraway seeds - Peanuts - Sesame Seeds - Pepper - Poppy Seeds - Granola - Sunflower Test your food smarts! Submit your answer at http://www.farmersmarketonline.com/foodquiz.htm or email to manager@FarmersMarketOnline?subject=quiz The answer to last week's Food Quiz: Yam Food Quiz Whizzes of the Week: Jacki Starcher of Ohio Norma Joseph of Ottawa ___MARKET POLL http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/poll.htm Last week's poll question: Are you overweight? 11 responses 11 said Yes (100%) 0 said No (0%) A couple of "yes" respondents wrote: "Well, it depends on whose systems you are using...according to me, a female, I am a somewhat fat...at about 15 pounds over my own standard. According to my husband and the government, I am on the lean side of chunky. At 50 years old, I know I can loose any excess in a few months of starving my self and walking 10 miles a week. However, I think I'll retain the extra fat-it might be a very cold winter season." "I recently joined Weight Watchers have have lost 10 pounds so far. The program is easy to follow and I would recommend it to anyone wanting to lose weight." This week's poll question: Do you stuff your turkey? To respond YES, post email to poll@farmersmarketonline.com?subject_pollyes To respond NO, post email to poll@farmersmarketonline.com?subject_pollno Or you can use our online polling station at http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/index.html#Poll Additional comments can be attached to your email post and will be posted on our Open Market page. Results of the poll and related comments will be published in our next issue. _________________________________________________ ___FARMER'S MARKET ONLINE (tm)___ Our email editions are available free of charge to any email address on request. Send an email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=subscribefmo To subscribe to the Farm edition only, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=subscribefarm To subscribe to the Food edition only, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=subscribefood To unsubscribe from both editions, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=stopboth To unsubscribe from the Farm edition only, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=stopfarm To unsubscribe from the Food edition only, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=stopfood Booth spaces and Farm Supply listings are available for $10 for 12 weeks, or $20 for 25 weeks. For Booth leasing information send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=fmobooth For Sponsorship advertising information, send email to manager@farmersmarketonline.com?subject=fmosponsor Sponsorship information is also available at http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com/sponsor.htm FARMER'S MARKET ONLINE Box 277, Shoshone, ID 83352-0277 fax (209) 396-8354 mailto:manager@farmersmarketonline.com http://www.FarmersMarketOnline.com From TROGERS@ars.usda.gov Wed Nov 17 11:15:26 1999 Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10590 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:01:59 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:11:10 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: london@metalab.unc.edu Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 364 Lawrence, you said: "Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context." Yes, yes of course but the gardener building the raised bed may be an illustration of harmony with nature not something natural. (Actually gardeners who build traditional double dug raised beds, like myself, are maniacal not natural.) I have to look at agriculture-food production, synthetic construct impressed upon nature, can, should, must be harmonious but cannot be natural. Food production is synthetic. Food gathering (hunting and gathering) is natural, carrying capacity(of humans) is low. Agriculture is synthetic carrying capacity for humans is dramatically higher. Harmonized with nature through ecological principles Agriculture may be sustainable. Again I apologize, this may be semantics and irrelevant but I think that we should be cautious about how we use words and how those words might effect our prejudices. Besides I am an angry old fart studying to be a curmudgeon. Best, Ted From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 11:22:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10751 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17237 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17167 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09286; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22605; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:28:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:28:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Ted Rogers cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 365 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Ted Rogers wrote: > I'm sorry Lawrence, this use of the word natural in association with or > as a descriptor of agriculture drives me up a wall. I have done it myself > in the past, but really, think about it. We invented agriculture 10,000 > years ago and slowly began the evolution of culture built upon it. There > is absolutely nothing natural about agriculture. It is an elegant synthetic > construct. Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context. > The critical issue from a wholistic and sustainable > perspective is that we try to understand how to harmonize modern > agricultural systems with what we are beginning to learn from nature as > we invent the science of ecology. This is a wonderful concept. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@timber.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 11:47:37 1999 Received: from timber.ces.ncsu.edu (timber.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.35.106]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11151 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majord@localhost) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07645 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:52:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: timber.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07628 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from abc ([128.253.251.239]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21223 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:52:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991117104517.00c33e50@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: cm52@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:52:46 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Chris McCullum Subject: FOX REPORTERS SUE STATION FOR REFUSING TO CHANGE STORY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 366 It may be true that the media has not picked up on Robert Cohen's hunger strike but this is not the first time the media has not picked on the issue of the rBGH controversy. For example, there is a court case pending where two investigative reporters from a FOX TV station (in Florida) were fired after they refused to change their story on the potential negative health effects of rBGH. The two investigative reporters have filed suit against the tv station, and their case is slowly making it through the courts. See below article and website for more details. >I don't think it is any secret that the media can 'selectively' cover >stories as it sees appropriate, or not appropriate, even when they have >full knowledge of the information. > >Chris >> > From Agribusiness Examiner #52 (Quoting from http://www.foxbghsuit.com) >========== >The AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER Issue # >52 October 19, 1999 > >Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective >============= > >A.V. Krebs > >Editor\Publisher >================ >FOX NEWS HIRES CLINTON IMPEACHMENT LAWYERS TO FIGHT TV REPORTERS JANE AKRE >& STEVE WILSON > >Justice delayed is justice denied, as investigative reporters Jane Akre >and Steve Wilson are learning from their suit against their former >employer Rupert Murdoch's FOX 13 TV station in Tampa Bay, Florida in >which they are claiming they were fired for refusing to broadcast >statements which they considered to be untrue about bovine growth hormone >(rBGH),which is manufactured by Monsanto, a major FOX advertiser. > >Despite a trial court judge Gaspar Ficcarotta, who clearly does not want >to preside in the case, a battery of high-priced Washington, D.C. lawyers >defending FOX, and the nation's media which refuses to report their story, >much less support their freedom of speech rights, Akre and Wilson have >scored some welcome preliminary victories in their suit. > >While they have managed to win a series of continuances, FOX has >nevertheless three times unsuccessfully sought to have the suit dismissed, >the latest effort coming prior to the scheduled October 11 trial date >which has now been again postponed indefinitely. > >In August, attorney William McDaniels of the Washington firm Williams & >Connolly filed a mountain of papers along with a Motion For Partial >Summary Judgment in the case. He argued the journalists' whistleblower >claim should be thrown out primarily because only the Federal >Communications Commission (FCC) has the right to pass judgment on whether >a broadcast licensee deliberately tried to slant the news. His motion was >denied. > >During the pretrial process both sides have exchanged lists of witnesses >expected to testify at the trial. Included among the journalists' >witnesses is consumer activist Ralph Nader who has agreed to come to >Florida to testify as an expert about the public interest, stressing that >broadcasters' use of the public airwaves mandate that they act in the >public interest, especially in the news reports they broadcast. FOX >attorneys have indicated informally that they will do their best to block >Nader's testimony. > >Attorney John Chamblee who represents reporter Jane Akre argued against >the FOX dismissal motion and provided an equally-thorough written brief to >the Court. The "weight of the evidence" submitted to the judge on this >issue alone is more than 20 pounds. Wilson, who has represented himself >throughout most of the pretrial proceedings, also presented an oral >argument that the dispute was much more than an honest editorial >disagreement as FOX has repeatedly claimed. > >In Florida as in many other jurisdictions, there is a very high standard >to be met before denying a party an opportunity to try a claim before a >jury. A similar Motion by FOX was denied months ago by Judge Robert >Bonanno as was a Motion To Dismiss the claim shortly after it was filed. > >Besides Williams & Connolly attorney McDaniels (who tried the Lt. William >Calley, Jr. Vietnam My Lai massacre case) and Alicia Marti, a junior >member of the firm and Pat Anderson and Tom McGowan of the St. Petersburg, >Florida law firm of Rahdert, Anderson, McGowan & Steele, FOX attorneys >include Gary Roberts (in -house counsel) and Ted Russell (junior member). >New York's Squadron, Ellenoff's Clifford Thau will represent Roger Ailes >and in St. Louis, Missouri Steve Rovak with the law firm Sonnenschein, >Nath, and Rosenthal will represent Monsanto. > >President Clinton's personal attorney David Kendall of the Williams & >Connolly firm is also representing FOX's interests in the matter. His >involvement came to light at the deposition of St. Petersburg lawyer >Patricia Anderson who produced a recent letter from Kendall to Monsanto >lawyer John Walsh. It was Walsh's letters to FOX News chief Roger Ailes >that kindled the whole dispute in early 1997. > >It was also Williams & Connolly who recently represented both Bill Clinton >in his Senate impeachment trial and Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) in the >Department of Justice's anti-trust price fixing suit. > >Commenting on the addition of Williams & Connolly to the FOX defense team >reporter Steve Wilson observes, "I don't think you pay those kind of >lawyers that kind of money to second-chair a case. I suspect the loss of >their summary judgment motion was the final straw for the local team. With >the case now headed for trial, it seems FOX decided it could use a little >more juice. Jane and I have every confidence our own attorneys --- John >Chamblee and Steve Wenzel --- will continue to do a superb job with this >case." > >================================ > >FOX TV BOWS TO MONSANTO THREAT SCRAPS NEWS SERIES EXPOSING USE OF rBGH > >The plight of the one-time Tampa, Florida TV investigative-reporter >husband-wife team Jane Akre and Steve Wilson and their unsuccessful >efforts to air a carefully researched report on Monsanto's rBGH and its >potential dangers to cows and the nation's milk supply vividly illustrates >how the "power of the press" is rapidly being preempted by corporate >America. > >rBGH is a bovine growth hormone designed and produced by Monsanto to >increase the milk production of cows by roughly 33%. Although approved by >the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 1993, the artificial >hormone has been linked to cancer and is banned throughout Europe and >unapproved in several other countries because of human health concerns. > >The reporters never-broadcast report also revealed how Florida >supermarkets quietly reneged on promises not to sell milk from treated >cows until the hormone gained widespread acceptance by consumers. All >major supermarkets now admit rBGH has found its way into virtually all of >Florida's milk supply. > >Immediately prior to their attempt to present a four-part series on the >possible health dangers of rBGH on FOX Television's WTVT (Channel 13) >station in Tampa Bay, Florida in February, 1997, Akre and Wilson learned >that FOX had ordered the series not to be shown. The order came after the >TV network received letters from Monsanto expressing "dissatisfaction" >with the report. > >With a certain touch of irony none other than multi-billionaire Bill >Gates, Microsoft Corp. chairman, recently observed in a BBC interview >that he thinks if anyone wants to take over the world, it's the man who >accused him of wanting to --- media tycoon Rupert Murdoch. "He's hiding >behind me. He's your man," Gates declared. > >Gates says running Microsoft is "not like owning a newspaper," referring >to Murdoch's News Corp. empire, which includes newspapers in the United >States, England and Australia, as well as the 20th Century Fox movie >studio, FOX Television, the Los Angeles Dodgers baseball team and >satellite TV networks on several continents. > >It was when Murdoch gained U.S. citizenship he celebrated by adding 13 >major U.S. stations, including Tampa Bay's WTVT, to his FOX network. FOX, >which is part of Murdoch's vast conglomerate, then owned 22 U.S. stations, >reaching more than 50% of American viewers > >"Someone who owns a newspaper can pick up the phone to the editor and say >`run headlines I like,'" Gates says. > >In a stunning illustration of Gates' observation the New York Times >Bernard Weinraub reported yesterday from Hollywood that 20th Century Fox >has stopped all movie studio advertising indefinitely in The Hollywood >Reporter, a movie trade daily, a move intended to damage the trade paper >financially. While executives at the studio, which is owned by News Corp., >insisted that the decision was based on long-standing unhappiness with the >way the trade paper was covering FOX, editors at The Hollywood Reporter, >and just about everyone else in town, according to Weinraub, said that the >reason for the economic boycott was simple: studio anger at the caustic >comments in the newspaper about the new FOX film "Fight Club," which >opened last Friday. > >The movie is a violent fantasy about men who pummel each other and go to >physical extremes because they view their lives as miserable. "What >enraged FOX executives were two Hollywood Reporter articles about the >movie in the last two weeks. One brief article, written by Anita M. Busch, >the newspaper's editor, and Thom Geier, a reporter, said that the openings >of the film in Los Angeles and New York had been disastrous. Producers and >agents were quoted, anonymously, as saying the big-budget movie was >`loathsome,' `absolutely indefensible' and `deplorable on every level,'" >Weinraub adds. > > >FOX 13 GENERAL MANAGER TO AKRE & WILSON: "WE PAID $3 BILLION FOR THESE TV >STATIONS. WE WILL DECIDED WHAT THE NEWS IS. THE NEWS IS WHAT WE TELL YOU >IT IS." > >What makes the Jane Akre and Steve Wilson story so outrageous is that WTVT >and FOX Television did not just order the reporters' rBGH series scraped, >like print and media outlets sometimes do when they deem stories not in >their own best financial interests, but actually ordered Akre and Wilson >to change facts in the story, omit sources, etc. > >In their two-month investigation Akre and Wilson raised a number of human >and animal health concerns as they found that Florida grocers had broken >their pledge not to buy milk from hormone-injected herds. Akre even >photographed cows being injected with the rBGH Posilac at seven out of >seven local dairies chosen at random. > >The news managers at WTVT, now known as FOX 13, were sufficiently >impressed to buy thousands of dollars of radio advertising in the run-up >to the scheduled broadcast, on February 24, 1997. At the last minute, >however, Monsanto lawyer John Walsh approached Roger Ailes, head of FOX >News in New York stating that the program was "inaccurate" and >"unsubstantiated." Within hours, the documentary was pulled "for further >review." > >The journalists' court documents say that they were "concerned about the >threatening nature of the Monsanto letter, particularly the part which >read `There is a lot at stake in what is going on in Florida, not only for >Monsanto, but also for FOX News and its owner'." > >Not surprising, Monsanto is a client of Actmedia, a major advertising >company owned by Murdoch. FOX stations throughout the country sell >commercial time to Monsanto for products such as Roundup, its widely-used >herbicide, and foods and drinks containing NutraSweet, the leading brand >of aspartame artificial sweetener. > >According to the journalists' lawsuit, the general manager of FOX 13, a >former investigative reporter, and the station's lawyers scrutinized the >broadcast frame by frame and found that "nothing in the [Monsanto] letter >raised any credible claim to the truthfulness, accuracy, or fairness of >the[documentary] reports." The station then set a new date for broadcast, >a week after the initial one. > >But Monsanto's lawyers now sent Ailes, who served as director of media >relations for Republican president George Bush, a second and more hostile >letter, and the Tampa station pulled the rBGH broadcast again, this time >for good. > >Soon afterwards, FOX fired Tampa Bay's general manager and news manager. >And the new management offered Akre and Wilson more than $150,000 in >exchange for their resignations and a promise not to publish details about >Posilac or how the stories were handled by FOX. > >The pair refused. Likewise, the journalists claim that the new managers >threatened to fire them if they did not include information that they >believed to be false: that milk from Posilac-injected cows is the same and >as safe as milk from untreated cows. > >Monsanto insisted that this statement be aired. But the journalists >presented scientific evidence suggesting this was not true. FOX 13, >however, having taken legal advice, eventually sided with Monsanto and >when the journalists refused to back down, it suspended them for >"insubordination," then terminated their contracts in December 1997. Six >months later, the station hired a less experienced reporter to prepare >another broadcast, one that contained the Monsanto statement. > >The husband-and-wife investigative team, however, have blown the whistle >on the station and FOX and its corporate bosses in a lawsuit claiming the >station preferred to coverup their story rather than broadcast it honestly >and accurately. > >In supporting papers filed with the court, the journalists say WTVT >General Manager David Boylan refused to kill the story for fear the >viewing public would learn the station yielded to pressure from special >interests. Instead, Wilson and Akre allege, Boylan ordered the reporters >to broadcast a version which contained demonstrably false information and >he threatened to fire them both within 48 hours if they refused. > >Akre-Wilson relate that at one point Boylan told the reporters, "he wasn't >interested" in looking at the story himself and pressured them to follow >the company's lawyer's directions. "Are you sure this is a hill you're >willing to die on," he told them. Later, they claim, he stressed, "We paid >$3 billion for these television stations. We will decide what the news is. >The news is what we tell you it is." > >In their suit the reporters are charging in detail FOX television, owned >by Rupert Murdoch's multi-national News Corp, ("News Corporation is the >only vertically integrated media company on a global scale"- 1997 Annual >Report) strongly pressured by Monsanto, violated the state's whistleblower >act by firing them for refusing to broadcast false reports and threatening >to report the station's conduct to the Federal Communications Commission >(FCC). > >Their complaint also claims the station violated their contracts in >dismissing them for those reasons and it seeks a ruling from the court to >determine to what extent the reporters' contractual obligations limit >their ability to speak freely about the rBGH issue. The journalists filed >the suit after struggling with FOX executives for most of 1997 to get the >story on the air, submitting some 73 drafts of scripts all found >"unacceptable" by the station. > >"Every editor has the right to kill a story and any honest reporter will >tell you that happens from time to time when a news organization's self >interest wins out over the public interest," said Wilson, the station's >former senior investigative reporter who helped Akre produce the story and >is now one of the plaintiffs. > >"But when media managers who are not journalists have so little regard for >the public trust that they actually order reporters to broadcast false >information and slant the truth to curry the favor or avoid the wrath of >special interests as happened here, that is the day any responsible >reporter has to stand up and say, `No way!' That is what Jane and I are >saying with this lawsuit," Wilson added. > >While Akre and Wilson's situation, has been near totally ignored by the >nation's major media, with the exception of articles in Penthouse and The >Nation magazines, the team has nevertheless been presenting their story in >full detail at a special Internet web site that can be viewed at >http://www.foxbghsuit.com > > >================================= > > >*** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material >is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest >in receiving the included information for research and educational >purposes. *** > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 11:47:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11155 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04764 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:07:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04760 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:07:18 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.67]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:05:07 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991117095118.007cba50@pcsia.com> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:51:18 -0600 To: Subject: Biotech PR War in the Heartland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 367 The industry side of the biotech war is heating up here in Iowa and probably the rest of the upper midwest. The last several days has seen the usual commercials from monsanto for their frankenfood products but there is a new twist. Earlier this year, one of the corn grower assocations cautioned farmers to put extra thought into their planting decisions for next year after ADM's call for segregation of ge crops next year. Now, commericals are appearing identified as sponsored by an area wide soybean marketing group. The commericals are touting that the market is wide open, (at least for this year), for altered soybeans at the elevators. This morning, monsanto and the soybean group are on the local news pushing ge crops and they had the newly elected democratic governor of Iowa with them. And don't you know, he was spouting the same old already discreditied avery /PRWire type of puff, about the USA feeding the world's population on limited crop land. Who was it that said, "We don't need a third political party in the US, we need a second political party."? Earth, to the Iowa Governor; Earth, to the Iowa Governor; crop prices are already below the cost of production and the poor people of the world still cannot afford our grain. How long can the farmer afford to subsidize the grain markets before joining the world's poor in abject poverty? The problem, as we have discussed here before, is not the amount of food available but the distribution of the wealth produced by the workers in the world's economy. If you keep the worker's wages in the basement by playing one country off against another for ever lower wages and laxer environment standards, then it should not be suprising that the workers involved in such a system cannot afford to buy your products. Oh, Duh. Of course, the US Congress is doing it's part to increase the world need for grain by placing restrictions on the US funding of the United Nations. These restrictions will help preclude birth control information/services on a world wide basis so that should help assure an ever growing need for more grains. Nothing like a self-fulfilling prophecy ;>) To answer Don's recent post, I guess this is why, we have to do more than just produce our organic food in a sustainable manner in our own corners of the world. If you lay back and don't let your preferences be known, the power and money boys will co-opt your elected representative with something you don't have - large amount of monopoly derived money. It time to raise a little more than crops if you want to be able to raise anything at all - other than your hand in the welfare line or at the start of the auction on your farm. Remember, the WTO meets soon in Seattle. If you are close, go and raise a little something other than crops. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 11:52:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11285 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08082 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:17:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08039 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:01:59 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:11:10 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: london@metalab.unc.edu Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 Lawrence, you said: "Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context." Yes, yes of course but the gardener building the raised bed may be an illustration of harmony with nature not something natural. (Actually gardeners who build traditional double dug raised beds, like myself, are maniacal not natural.) I have to look at agriculture-food production, synthetic construct impressed upon nature, can, should, must be harmonious but cannot be natural. Food production is synthetic. Food gathering (hunting and gathering) is natural, carrying capacity(of humans) is low. Agriculture is synthetic carrying capacity for humans is dramatically higher. Harmonized with nature through ecological principles Agriculture may be sustainable. Again I apologize, this may be semantics and irrelevant but I think that we should be cautious about how we use words and how those words might effect our prejudices. Besides I am an angry old fart studying to be a curmudgeon. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 11:55:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11371 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13991 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:23:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13985 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLC00IPZNYGE9@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:29:26 -0800 From: Misha Subject: This Compost To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 Howdy, all-- It's been...what...six years? since Willie Lockeretz opined here on SANET that Walt Whitman is the poet laureate of the sustainable ag movement, and posted "This Compost" from the "Autumn Rivulets" section of /Leaves of Grass/. Well, the blessed St. Walt resides in the dust under our feet, as he dreamed, and I felt compelled tonight to offer a coda of this stunningly beautiful meditation on life, death, and transformation. And soil microbes. Don't forget to look up for the Leonids. If you missed them tonight (Tuesday), try again Wednesday. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This Compost 1 Something startles me where I thought I was safest, I withdraw from the still woods I loved, I will not go now on the pastures to walk, I will not strip the clothes from my body to meet my lover the sea, I will not touch my flesh to the earth as to other flesh to renew me. O how can it be that the ground itself does not sicken? How can you be alive you growths of spring? How can you furnish health you blood of herbs, roots, orchards, grain? Are they not continually putting distemper'd corpses within you? Is not every continent work'd over and over with the sour dead? Where have you disposed of their carcasses? Those drunkards and gluttons of so many generations? Where have you drawn off all the foul liquid and meat? I do not see any of it upon you to-day, or perhaps I am deceiv'd, I will run a furrow with my plough, I will press my spade through the sod and turn it up underneath, I am sure I shall expose some of the foul meat. 2 Behold this compost! behold it well! Perhaps every mite has once form'd part of a sick person--yet behold! The grass of spring covers the prairies, The bean bursts noiselessly through the mould in the garden, The delicate spear of the onion pierces upward, The apple-buds cluster together on the apple-branches, The resurrection of the wheat appears with pale visage out of its graves, The tinge awakes over the willow-tree and the mulberry-tree, The he-birds carol mornings and evenings while the she-birds sit on their nests, The young of poultry break through the hatch'd eggs, The new-born of animals appear, the calf is dropt from the cow, the colt from the mare, Out of its little hill faithfully rise the potato's dark green leaves, Out of its hill rises the yellow maize-stalk, the lilacs bloom in the dooryards, The summer growth is innocent and disdainful above all those strata of sour dead. What chemistry! That the winds are really not infectious, That this is no cheat, this transparent green-wash of the sea which is so amorous after me, That it is safe to allow it to lick my naked body all over with its tongues, That it will not endanger me with the fevers that have deposited themselves in it, That all is clean forever and forever, That the cool drink from the well tastes so good, That blackberries are so flavorous and juicy, That the fruits of the apple-orchard and the orange-orchard, that melons, grapes, peaches, plums, will none of them poison me, That when I recline on the grass I do not catch any disease, Though probably every spear of grass rises out of what was once a catching disease. Now I am terrified at the Earth, it is that calm and patient, It grows such sweet things out of such corruptions, It turns harmless and stainless on its axis, with such endless successions of diseas'd corpses, It distills such exquisite winds out of such infused fetor, It renews with such unwitting looks its prodigal, annual, sumptuous crops, It gives such divine materials to men, and accepts such leavings from them at last. (1856, 1881) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 12:07:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11718 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13984 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:22:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13973 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLC00IPZNYGE9@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:18:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:11:10 -0800 From: Misha Subject: RE: education questions In-reply-to: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953B8F@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" References: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953B8F@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 Howdy, all-- A correction to Kevin's lead: >UW Madison and the community in general, have a number of opportunities to >be involved in local ag and CSA's. CHeck out: http://www.wisc.edu/cias/ We don't have a lot up yet about our CSA work...but we are providing bytes and bandwidth for the Web site of the Madison Area Community Supported Agriculture Coalition (MACSAC): http://www.wisc.edu/cias/macsac Lots of information there. You-all will be among the first to get word of the updating of the CIAS site, when that's ready. :^) peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you want me again, look for me under your boot soles. --Walt Whitman To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 13:51:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13925 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03067 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03052 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12910; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24755; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:11:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:11:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Ted Rogers cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Ted Rogers wrote: > Lawrence, you said: > > "Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised > beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this > is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context." > Yes, yes of course but the gardener building the raised bed may be an > illustration of harmony with nature not something natural. (Actually Humans, being higher order organisms may not perceive what they do as natural when in fact they may be in the act of defining what is natural. One growing to feed oneself is closer to being what some perceive as "natural" but one growing to feed many is less easy to perceive that way since it is a much more complex, difficult process and more succeptible to error and it's "naturalness" is less obvious - adhering to the laws of nature is more difficult. It would be hard to say that birds dropping rocks on clams to get at the meat or chimpanzees using sticks to gather termites is not simply natural, and that it _may_ be in harmony with nature or not. The spread of invasive species seems "natural" but is it "in harmony with nature"? How would you define the act of planting red clover on newly enriched (with compost, manures & rock powders, maybe seaweed) & tilled raised beds in order for the substances exuded by the clover roots to enhance the ability of some soil fungi to break down and extract plant-available nutrients from soil particles (phosphate from rock)? Is this "natural" an "enhancement or extention of nature" or participating in a process that is "in harmony with nature"? You are more than welcome to ignore this as I am just rambling a bit. > gardeners who build traditional double dug raised beds, like myself, are > maniacal not natural.) I have to look at agriculture-food production, That's what happens when you begin growing your own food naturally. :-) > synthetic construct impressed upon nature, can, should, must be > harmonious but cannot be natural. Food production is synthetic. Food This is an interesting point. > gathering (hunting and gathering) is natural, carrying capacity(of > humans) is low. Agriculture is synthetic carrying capacity for humans is > dramatically higher. Harmonized with nature through ecological > principles Agriculture may be sustainable. This is a very goal to work toward as we move into the next millenium. > Again I apologize, this may be semantics and irrelevant but I think that we > should be cautious about how we use words and how those words Very true, especially these days when agriculture is so complex and we have so much we can and should learn and put into practice. > might effect our prejudices. Besides I am an angry old fart studying to be > a curmudgeon. Good luck. :-) Lawrence > > Best, > > Ted > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 14:46:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15099 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25178 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:55:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from rrc2.rrcnet.org ([209.105.74.131]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25163 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from bataphil (com206.rrcnet.org [209.32.211.206]) by rrc2.rrcnet.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA02128 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:51:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Phil & Deb Batalden" To: "Sanet" Subject: Seed Companies Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:48:14 -0600 Message-ID: <01bf312c$4dd83400$ced320d1@bataphil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013C_01BF30FA.033DC400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013C_01BF30FA.033DC400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The talk around here in the farmer circle is how years back when = pioneer had high yeilding and heavy test weight seedcorn and the = competitors did not, the competitors bought some pioneer seed and raised = seed from the pioneer seed to get the same results from their seed. They = knew they could get away with it until dna testing came along. Now there = are lawsuits going on between the companies, over the pvp rights, but = those same seed companies who pirated the seed from pioneer are using = the pvp to sue farmers who plant seed kept from their crop. Any one = else heard anything about this?=20 Phil ------=_NextPart_000_013C_01BF30FA.033DC400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The talk=20 around here in the farmer circle is how years back when pioneer had high = yeilding and heavy test weight seedcorn and the competitors did not, the = competitors bought some pioneer seed and raised seed from the pioneer = seed to=20 get the same results from their seed. They knew they could get away with = it=20 until dna testing came along. Now there are lawsuits going on between = the=20 companies, over the pvp rights, but those same seed companies who = pirated the=20 seed from pioneer are using the pvp to sue farmers who plant seed = kept =20 from their crop. Any one else heard anything about this? =
   =20 Phil 
 
------=_NextPart_000_013C_01BF30FA.033DC400-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 15:07:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15523 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07170 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:18:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07143 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.34] [199.175.106.34] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11oAYn-0006deC for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:16:05 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:19:48 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: chlorpyrifos Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 Gosh Ted, even from the rarified atmosphere of the USDA you surely can see the contradictions in your statement: "Dow AgroSciences LLC, also believes that the 3,5,6-TCP in urine may have sources other than chlorpyrifos and possibly other than pesticides." We unlettered farmers are constantly scolded and reminded to stick to sound science and to scientific facts. Then you confidently tell us Dow AgroSciences "also believes that" and "possibly other than". That's not a very good example for us to follow. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 16:01:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16579 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10987 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:19:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10962 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:19:45 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.8834f85 (3842) for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:16:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8834f85.2564672f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:16:47 EST Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1441 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 374 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 16:05:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16625 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11719 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:21:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11521 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:20:48 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.c873385 (3842) for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:17:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.c873385.25646770@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:17:52 EST Subject: y2k lesson and what to do (low-tech sustainability) To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 375 Now that y2k is coming up fast, it is clear that those of us who have been y2k activists for the last year or more have failed in helping communities adaquately prepare. We are going into y2k not fully prepared. The wall of denial was too thick and too deep. I used to say, "Dere's a river and its called da Nile. At da enda dat river is a waterfall, no one can see it, and no one can hear it. We'll all know how big or small it is only when we ride it together, come New Year's." The ideal community contingency preparation for y2k is to make neighborhoods as self-sustainable as possible. On the face of it this seems too daunting to be possible, but I created a non-commercial website that focuses on developing an ever-improving list of low-tech sustainable ideas/methods to make it as easy as possible for individuals and groups to implement these ideas to become models for their neighbors and others over the internet and thru the media. I have been deeply involved for about a year and a half and have had nothing but trouble in getting this website off the ground. Many of the ideas can be implemented very quickly, others take some time. Its still not entirely too late. I am involved, among other things with the President's y2k commission, which has a teleconference with about 40 other y2k "experts" bi-monthly. Tomorrow(Nov.18), we will have Helen Caldicott and someone from the Nuclear Reg. Comm debating the nuclear issues related to y2k and open to our questions and comments. I say this, in a way, to help you understand, that I am way up on y2k, I am well informed from having studying it an inordinate, almost embarrassing amount of time, over the internet. Everything that the website (http://bagelhole.org) wouldn't hurt to have even if y2k ended up being way overblown (which is very unlikely, I should think). I could easily imagine that the effects of y2k will be going on sporadically for some time (at least a year), with the possibility of things getting slowly overwhelming to the point of infrastructure seizure. In a way this could be good, in that it would give us extra time to prepare properly and fully. And I reiterate that that has to do with becoming as self-sustainable as possible asap. This is not necessarily long term self-sustainability, I'm talking about, though that would be good, i.e. bioremedialization, elimination of toxics, and pollutants, renewable energy, restructuring society (co-operative vs competitive). It is instead "relative low-tech self-sustainability"; growing your own food (vertical gardening for those without yards, aquaponics - on schools, backyards, empty lots, greenhouses, gardens, window sills, insects, bees, animals like rabbits and chickens, water catchment - relatively easy, since we all have gutters and downspouts which could be retrofitted for purification, passive solar water heating, toilet retrofitting for compost and worm production, energy conservation within the home, and more. This needs to become a trend, through the internet, media, and local example, globally. This way, we prepare intelligently and prudently for possible disaster(s), escape the dominance of corporate entities, and lay the groundwork for a future world based on decentralized, non-sovereign, mutually co-operative, relatively self-sustainable small communities. The opposite of the dysfunctional, violent, death march we have to endure today. There is a lesson in y2k which few have learned yet, it seems to me, and that is while high tech is undeniably great, it places humanity in an unnecessarily risky situation due to its complexity, universality, and interconnectedness, wherein the possibility of kaleidoscopic collapses could occur globally (this is new, historically). That is why low-tech needs to be brought back and reimplemented as quickly and widely as possible. Within one or two generations, much of this has been lost. Imagine, if you would, if we had already done it. Food wouldn't be reliant on trucks (as almost all commercial items are), which is reliant on oil, electricity, computers, communications, everything, as well as most everything else, water, sewage, health/medical, etc. We wouldn't have to worry so much if everything we really needed was right here in the community within walking distance. We could have high tech without the grave risks that are inherent within. Think about it. Tom Osher San Francisco 451-824-4214 Mr. Osher has been an intense and consistant activist with Food Not Bombs from 1988 to 1995, a creative movement teacher in the private schools of SF, started the first "antique clothing store" in the Western Hemisphere in 1969-72 in N. Beach. Initiated the used jeans business back then, raised children, taught designs on clay platters at Precita Eyes Mural Arts Center, currently has a hauling business and is attempting to make his home in Hunters Pt. a model for low-tech sustainability with an aquaponics (greenhouses synergistic with a fishfarm underneath) system developing in his backyard. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From sals@rain.org Wed Nov 17 16:06:38 1999 Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16634 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-143.rain.org [198.68.144.143]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D16A261773; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:06:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01bf313f$7def5200$8f9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." , "Ted Rogers" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Re:the London Strategy -Reply Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:05:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 376 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. To: Ted Rogers Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:28 AM Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Ted Rogers wrote: > > > I'm sorry Lawrence, this use of the word natural in association with or > > as a descriptor of agriculture drives me up a wall. I have done it myself > > in the past, but really, think about it. We invented agriculture 10,000 > > years ago and slowly began the evolution of culture built upon it. There > > is absolutely nothing natural about agriculture. It is an elegant synthetic > > construct. . > Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised beds, > bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this is > structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context. I think I see what u mean by natural Lawrence. I feel natural and organic are one in the same to me or that is the way it use to be before the USDA stole the word organic. . I agree structured is not natural or part of this argument but a way to through folks off with words IMHO if one only uses what can be found in nature to grow and no "I repeat no synthetics" then ur organic and/or natural. now I know this is not 300 pages long but I feel Lawrence put his finger on it and most folks understand what he is saying. IMHO this is what growing organic and/or natural means. using what is found naturally in nature. this does not drive me up a wall its so simple. sometime the simple things are the most wise. I am a simple man yet understand what London means by natural. I seem to be able to meet all the organic organizations rules and State rules just by following that rule. only use what is naturally found in nature. Da the USDA has been over a decade trying to define organic . hope this helps 1 rule 1 line . I know there are poisons in nature and some natural things may be harmful and I don't use them I don't have to use everything in nature I have a choice but what in puts I do use must be found in nature. natural -- non synthetics . that's what I mean by natural and I guess that's what I mean by organic. ... the food does not eat any synthetics . I am talking about feeding the food and animals. I just don't feed the food synthetics only what is found in nature. animals same feed only what is found in nature. because the USDA is thinking about making synthetics part of the word organic then what do you call a grower that only feeds his plants and animals what can be found in nature? that is the question? you got synthetics and you got natural . so I know where your coming from Lawrence. U know what drives me up a wall. the USDA calling GMO's non GMO's and non organic the call organic and natural. if it grown or processed with synthetics it is non organic or natural and if it has any GMO's in it .It can not me called NON GMO . it just depends on what your definition of is is. . . From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 16:49:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17645 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07959 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:08:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07953 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-143.rain.org [198.68.144.143]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D16A261773; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:06:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01bf313f$7def5200$8f9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." , "Ted Rogers" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Re:the London Strategy -Reply Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:05:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 377 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. To: Ted Rogers Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:28 AM Subject: Re:the London Strategy -Reply > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Ted Rogers wrote: > > > I'm sorry Lawrence, this use of the word natural in association with or > > as a descriptor of agriculture drives me up a wall. I have done it myself > > in the past, but really, think about it. We invented agriculture 10,000 > > years ago and slowly began the evolution of culture built upon it. There > > is absolutely nothing natural about agriculture. It is an elegant synthetic > > construct. . > Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised beds, > bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this is > structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context. I think I see what u mean by natural Lawrence. I feel natural and organic are one in the same to me or that is the way it use to be before the USDA stole the word organic. . I agree structured is not natural or part of this argument but a way to through folks off with words IMHO if one only uses what can be found in nature to grow and no "I repeat no synthetics" then ur organic and/or natural. now I know this is not 300 pages long but I feel Lawrence put his finger on it and most folks understand what he is saying. IMHO this is what growing organic and/or natural means. using what is found naturally in nature. this does not drive me up a wall its so simple. sometime the simple things are the most wise. I am a simple man yet understand what London means by natural. I seem to be able to meet all the organic organizations rules and State rules just by following that rule. only use what is naturally found in nature. Da the USDA has been over a decade trying to define organic . hope this helps 1 rule 1 line . I know there are poisons in nature and some natural things may be harmful and I don't use them I don't have to use everything in nature I have a choice but what in puts I do use must be found in nature. natural -- non synthetics . that's what I mean by natural and I guess that's what I mean by organic. ... the food does not eat any synthetics . I am talking about feeding the food and animals. I just don't feed the food synthetics only what is found in nature. animals same feed only what is found in nature. because the USDA is thinking about making synthetics part of the word organic then what do you call a grower that only feeds his plants and animals what can be found in nature? that is the question? you got synthetics and you got natural . so I know where your coming from Lawrence. U know what drives me up a wall. the USDA calling GMO's non GMO's and non organic the call organic and natural. if it grown or processed with synthetics it is non organic or natural and if it has any GMO's in it .It can not me called NON GMO . it just depends on what your definition of is is. . . To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 17 16:58:01 1999 -0500 Received: from net.bio.net (net.bio.net [198.94.52.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17812 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA26193 for symbios-list; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA26189; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:00:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911172200.OAA26189@net.bio.net> To: nobody@net.bio.net X-Really-To: symbios@net.bio.net Newsgroups: bionet.biology.symbiosis Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:28:12 -0400 (EDT) From: DDOUDS Subject: new mycorrhiza book available soon from APS press Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 378 New book to be available soon from the American Phytopathological Society Press: "Current Advances in Mycorrhizae Research," edited by G.K. Podila and D. D. Douds. This book contains invited papers the Proceedings of the Symposium 'Integrating principles of plant pathology and molecular biology with mycorrhiza research" help at the November, 1998 meeting of the American Phytopathological Society (see Table of Contents, below). Price: $34 (US) before Dec. 31, 1999 ($38 thereafter) plus $5 shipping and handling ($10 for international orders). Members of APS receive a 15% discount. Books will be shipped in February, 2000. Contact: APS Press 3340 Pilot Knob Rd. St. Paul, MN 55121 USA http://www.scisoc.org/apspress Table of Contents Elicitor induced reactions in mycorrhizae and their suppression. Peter Salzer and Thomas Boller Signaling and recognition events prior to colonization of roots by arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. David Douds and Jerry Nagahashi External sugar concentration as a signal controlling ectomycorrhizal fungal gene expression. Uwe Nehls, Joachim Wise and Roger Hampp Molecular aspects of ectomycorrhiza development. Denis Tagu, Frederic Lapeyrie, Franck Ditengou, Hubert Lagrange, Pascal Laurent, Nacer Missoum, Uwe Nehls, and Francis Martin Isolation of genes induced during arbuscular mycorrhizal development using a combination of subtractive hybridization and differential screening. Marianne L. van Buuren, Anthony T. Trieu, Laura A. Blaylock, and Maria J. Harrison The truffle life cycle: a biochemical and molecular characterization. Vilberto Stocchi, Roberta De Bellis, Lucia Potenza, Sabrina Zappa, Francesca Bernardini, L. Vallorani, R. Saltarelli, G. Piccolo, and Deborah Agostini Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi and defense response in plants. K. A. Blee and Anne J. Anderson Regulation of plant defense-related genes in arbuscular mycorrhizae. Maricio R. Lambais Plant defense responses during arbuscular mycorrhiza symbiosis. Orna Shaul, Rakefet David, Galit Sinvani, Idit Ginzberg, Dana Ganon, Smadar Wininger, Broria Ben- Dor, Hanna Badani, Nahom Ovdat, and Yoram Kapulnik Dissecting carbon pathways in arbuscular mycorrhizae with NMR spectroscopy. Berta Bago, Yair Shachar-Hill, and Philip E. Pfeffer Assessing costs of arbuscular mycorrhizal symbiosis in agroecosystems. James H. Graham Outside and inside the roots: cell-to-cell interactions among arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi, bacteria and host plants. Paola Bonfante and Silvia Perotto Interactions between fungi and plant cell cytoskeleton. R. Larry Peterson, Yukari Uetake, and Lara N. Armstrong. Development of genetically engineered mycorrhizal fungi for biological control. S. Hiremath and G.K. Podila From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 17 19:49:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21296 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25234; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:47:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24982 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:44:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.190.163.67] (pm3shep1-163-47.intrepid.net [209.190.163.47]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19034; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:44:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:38:21 -0400 To: World Sustainable Agriculture Association From: Allan Balliett Subject: CSA listings Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 379 I mentioned the other day that there would be a new listing of CSA's available soon. Soon is now. Go to http://www.biodynamics.com/usda/ ; you'll find a current list of several hundred CSA's searchable by state. It gives contact information, area served, &c. Many different organizations supplied their lists of CSA's to the folks at the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center and the Sustainable Agriculture Network. They took on the job of contacting some six or seven hundred farms; somewhere over half responded with updated information. It's my understanding that followup attempts are being made to contact the others so that the list is as complete as possible. The BDA site is one of four mirror sites where one can access this list, which is also available at the USDA's Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service site, http://www.reeusda.gov/csa.html. The others include AFSIC's site at http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csastate.htm; the SAN site at http://www.sare.org/san/csa/states.htm and the Robyn Van En Center's site at http://www.csacenter.org. All include a fair amount of other perhaps useful information and seem worth a visit. At all of these sites there is an on-line form for submitting the particulars on farms that you know of which should be included. The list will be updated on some yet to be agreed upon regular basis. SAN coordinator Andy Clark and I'm sure many other hard-working individuals deserve thanks for getting this all together in a pretty short time. Bruce =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 20:21:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21689 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19756 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19742 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12405 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.67] (pm3shep1-163-47.intrepid.net [209.190.163.47]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19034; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:44:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:38:21 -0400 To: World Sustainable Agriculture Association From: Allan Balliett Subject: CSA listings Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 380 I mentioned the other day that there would be a new listing of CSA's available soon. Soon is now. Go to http://www.biodynamics.com/usda/ ; you'll find a current list of several hundred CSA's searchable by state. It gives contact information, area served, &c. Many different organizations supplied their lists of CSA's to the folks at the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center and the Sustainable Agriculture Network. They took on the job of contacting some six or seven hundred farms; somewhere over half responded with updated information. It's my understanding that followup attempts are being made to contact the others so that the list is as complete as possible. The BDA site is one of four mirror sites where one can access this list, which is also available at the USDA's Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service site, http://www.reeusda.gov/csa.html. The others include AFSIC's site at http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csastate.htm; the SAN site at http://www.sare.org/san/csa/states.htm and the Robyn Van En Center's site at http://www.csacenter.org. All include a fair amount of other perhaps useful information and seem worth a visit. At all of these sites there is an on-line form for submitting the particulars on farms that you know of which should be included. The list will be updated on some yet to be agreed upon regular basis. SAN coordinator Andy Clark and I'm sure many other hard-working individuals deserve thanks for getting this all together in a pretty short time. Bruce =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 17 20:52:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22253 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA18682 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:32:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18651 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (256.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.70]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA11102 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:30:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911180130.TAA11102@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: FYI Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:28:36 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 NOW IN PRINT SARE PUB FEATURES "HOW-TO'S" OF ON-FARM RESEARCH A new, no-cost, 12-page bulletin for farmers and ranchers, and the Extension educators who work with them, offers outlines on how to conduct research on farms. Published by the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Program's Sustainable Agriculture Network, the bulletin contains practical tips for crop and livestock producers, as well as an in-depth comprehensive list of resources. Co-written by a team of research scientists, the bulletin features many SARE grant recipients. The publication is available at or by calling (301) 504-6422. Ask for "Put Your Ideas to the Test: How to Conduct Research on Your Farm or Ranch." Your contact is Valerie Berton, SARE Communications Specialist, on (301) 405-3186 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 06:58:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27252 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA24599 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:46:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24567 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp2.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27446 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:44:35 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09981 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:47:17 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 18 Nov 99 12:39:20 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 18 Nov 99 12:39:16 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:39:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Milling GMO (was HACCP) Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <1F8944A333B@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 382 hello dale, sorry for late answer, i was been cut off from sanet for 3 days (a mailer problem at ncsu?) >> and no matter how WTO would decide, they simply would not be >> able to use such batches because they would upset their clients. >> and that would also be valid for corn meal (they also do produce). > >Yes, this is clearly the issue of the day (year?). and certainly that of the next century. (don't worry about millenium changes - if you've seen one, you've seen'em all). >The technical GMO issues in milling grain have to do with tolerances, >sampling, and testing. the tolerances ARE for sampling and analysing (and they exist for the legal aspects against the lab). the rest is homogenity and that's the problem of the seller. >Most forms of these >tests simply give a yes-or-no answer. With discrete seeds or grains, >sensitivity is limited by the number of kernels taken to be ground in the >sample. If you grind together 10,000 grains, then the sensitivity is on the >order of 1 in 10,000, or 0.01%. But when grain is sampled AFTER milling, >the sensitivity may be excessive (that is, in terms of percent GMO grain >needed to produce a positive reaction). It would not be surprising to mill >grain that tested negative, then find that the flour tests positive, due to >the presence of a minute percentage of GMO kernels in the bulk. that's what the tolerances are for (error 2nd grade). but: today we have ABSOLUTELY NO problem to test not only in qualitative, but also in quantitative terms by pcr. pcr CAN measure down to about 10 molecules in a sample, but the reasonable detection limit is 0.1% (reasonable means a balance of price and result). and pcr can be adjusted to ANY level of impurity (example: reduction of thermo-cycle-passes or dilution of the sample). and even more exact is "competetive pcr", which can measure *quantitative* amounts (down from those roughly 10 molecules up to any percentage) and it can even be used in corn meals, flour or other mixtures. immunoflourescence would be another very exact option (only problem would be the price of about 150000$ per machine, which makes it only interesting for serial testing). if i would do the analyses, i would first do a cheap rough scan for widely used and medium-strong acting promotors (like CaMV) and if found, one could dig a bit deeper (although that would not be really necessary, from a certain amount upward someone HAD meddled with the genes in the lab, it's the same chance as if someone won 1st price in the national lottery, two would mean two times immediately one after another, even the fed tax won't believe you, that you got your money like that) and find the exact sequence for a cheaper primer (i would have to do that, because you would not tell it to me and save me the 3 months of work ;-))) >The practical matter is that European public officials must decide on >tolerances. Trying to stick to zero will paralyze the system. I have heard >that the officials are dithering on this issue because of conflicting >political pressures. they HAVE decided : 2 %! that's far more than zero and esp. MUCH more than exactly measurable by analysis. so a increase from today's level of undesired impurities seems to be a NO-NO, as they would slowly but constantly increase and some day you will have reached the 2% (+ tolerance;-]) and i would take even more intensive care in my breeding gardens than today and select my multipliers and the regions very carefully. and i'm sure: it doesn't matter, what and how WHO or MAI will decide. the consumer knows up to now, what can be analysed and the mills will live under the same boycott fears like today - in the moment they guarantee a maximum of 0.1% (that's what the ceo said, i'm not quite sure, if he knew the behinds - probably not) and they will do so in the future. consumers do not see it as a physical thread, but more as an economic one: who will decide, what kind of nutrition they will eat. in any case people have strange ideas of numbers: usually the explanation of residue analysis is done by explaining, that something like the molecules in a glass of water can be measured, if poured in the whole lake erie - the famous needle in the haystick. maybe i can explain it in a better way: humans have about 10 mg of molybden in their body. (1/100 of a gramm, you will have some difficulties to see that amount by visual inspection. and with today's analytical tools they can be exactly measured down the first decimal in a small sample taken from 1000 tons of human blood. well, that is a very! practical example ;-))) that's one side of the game: even very low numbers are seen as a thread to one's health. and people are unlogic: the EU has lost its battle before the jury of the WTO about the import stop of north american beef. the facts: steaks from bulls, which grew on american pastures even with a hormone depot behind their ears (estrogen), has lower hormone residues than bull's meat from european mass-production farms... now the other side of the coin: how much atoms of this ridiculous amount of molybden are there in EACH cell of your body?? just guess - solution at the end of the mail there's another problem: opponents are very thankful for your "honorable" mr. rightwing jesse helms and the burton-helms act, which is still legal today. people here know this trading-blocade for european countries with cuba and esp. their subsidiaries in the usa very well. it was one of the worst thing america could do for it's bad image in the last 40 years, as it is seen as a fight of goliath against david, and you know: people tend to take the much weaker side of david. so you should not wonder, that german workers in siemens, basf, bayer, daimler, db, mannesmann or schering have their own opinion, of what american government understands under the term "free trade". yes - ONE reason for the blocking of gmos might very well be some kind of revenche and neither fear nor reasoning. klaus ---- 10 mg molybden = about 5 x 10^19 atoms; number of cells in a human: 10^14. which results in half a million!! of these highly catalytic particles in EACH human cell. and that's why i ask for "slow motion" in genetic modification of food. it's NOT my main argument (that one is the FREE decision pro or against for everyone -> labeling. may the market decide, i'll expect the next step of the gmo industry to be modified "value-added" plants and food and THEN and only then we will see a real split in public opinions, provided the value can be proven. herbicide resistance as the starting point was a BAD idea) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 07:38:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27496 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12090 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:11:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA11957 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp2.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA27758 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:09:18 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10163 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:12:00 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 18 Nov 99 13:04:03 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 18 Nov 99 13:04:02 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:03:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: This Compost Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <1F8FDF0385F@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 383 >It's been...what...six years? since Willie Lockeretz opined here on >SANET that Walt Whitman is the poet laureate of the sustainable ag >movement, this one's more original (and older i think. at least it sounds less sad and more as life to be fun): Lee's Living Will, written by Lee Hayes to Pete Seeger's wife: If I should die before I wake All my bone and sinew take Put me in the compost pile To decompose me for a while Worms, water, sun will have their way, Returning me to common clay All that I am will feed the trees The plants, the fishes in the seas When radishes and corn you munch You'll be having me for lunch And then excrete me with a grin Chortling "There goes Lee again!" klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 18 05:25:34 1999 -0500 Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26759 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 05:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.16) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <9.709B445C@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:28:03 +0100 Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LISTSERV release 1.8d) with NJE id 2583343 for ET-ANN@SEGATE.SUNET.SE; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:27:55 +0200 Received: from mb04.swip.net (193.12.122.208) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.6BE58AD0@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:27:55 +0100 Received: from d212-151-227-164.swipnet.se (d212-151-245-179.swipnet.se [212.151.245.179]) by mb04.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21265 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:24:23 +0100 (MET) Received: by d212-151-227-164.swipnet.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BF31B7.F39270A0@d212-151-227-164.swipnet.se>; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:27:52 +0100 Encoding: 154 TEXT Approved-By: Jacky Foo Message-ID: <01BF31B7.F39270A0@d212-151-227-164.swipnet.se> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:55:44 +0100 Reply-To: Jacky Foo Sender: Ecotechnology Announcements From: Jacky Foo Subject: [ET-ANN] 2nd Call for Abstracts To: ET-ANN@SEGATE.SUNET.SE Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 Hello Everyone The 1st Call for Abstracts for the Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems, March-Oct 2000 (see http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa for scope, conference theme and other instructions) has received a good response so far; 10 abstracts have been approved and the rest are in the review process. I enclose the tentative list of the titles of papers which show the range of topics that the scope of the Conference covers. We are looking for another 20 abstract submissions and would like to invite you to consider making a presentation of your work in one of the 11 themes (see below). The deadline for the 2nd Call for Abstracts is 31 Dec. 1999. An abstracts should not be more than 1 page in size and may contain text, table, diagrams. It should include the title of paper, full name(s) and postal and email address(es) of author(s), abstract and keywords. Please send your abstract(s) to foo@swipnet.se. All submitted abstracts will be reviewed by the Planning Group of the Conference. Authors should wait for formal notification of acceptance of the abstracts before proceeding into the preparation of the full paper(s). Registration: Registration to receive news and updates that is useful for your participation at the Conference is free. You can view news items on the web http://segate.sunet.se/archives/et-w11.html or receive them by email. To subscribe, use the LISTSERV subscription command : SUB ET-W11 yourfirstname yourlastname and send your subscription to listserv@segate.sunet.se ----- Mr. Eng-Leong "Jacky" Foo Co-ordinator, Integrated Bio-Systems Network http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/ibsnet Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems (2000) http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa (updated) +++ Tentative List of Papers (Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems, March-Oct 2000) P1 - Kefa V O Rabah (Kenya) : Application of Sugarcane Residues as Biofuel for Cogeneration of Electricity Kenya P2 - H.Losada, et al. (Mexico): Recycling of solid wastes in the east of Mexico City by livestock and agricultural production systems. P3 - Simon Appleby & E.L. Foo (Indonesia/Sweden): Integrated bio-system for a feedlot-abattoir-meat processing and research complex in Bali P4 - Li Kangmin & Wang Qiuhua (P R China). Nutrient flow analysis in digester fishpond IBS P5 - Song Xiangfu, Ying Huodong, Wu Weiming, Jin Qianyu, Zou Guoyan and Li Kangmin*. (P.R: China) Study on surface aquaponics in natural waters with nutrient flow analysis P6 - Christina Aristanti (Indonesia) : From wastes to employment and environment improvement opportunities. P7 - Amrit B. Karki and Upendra Gautam (Nepal): Community Latrine-cum-biogas plant at Ward No. 1 of Pathari VDC of Morang District of Nepal. P8 - Julian David Chara & Elkin Dario Pulido (Colombia): Material flow in "Pozo Verde" Integrated Farm in Cauca Valley Province, Colombia. P9 - D. Craig Sheppard & G. Larry Newton (USA): Black Soldier Fly Larvae Produce High Quality Feedstuff from Manure P10 - Anna Hedlund (Sweden) : A theoretical integrated nutrient flow on a farm with three sub-systems in a village in Southern Vietnam P11 - Sudhira H.S. & Ann Jacob (India): Reutilisation of byproducts of coir industry : A Case Study. P12 - Paul Adler (USA) : Phytoremediation of aquaculture effluents with lettuce and basil. P13 - D K Saxena (India) : Metal Pollution in river Ra Ganga and its recovery through aquatic plant P14 - Jagannath Venkataramaih (India): Scales of Operations on Community Based Solid Wastes Management in India P15 - Jean-Pierre Bayala (Belgium) : Village-based integrated waste water treatment system at Women's Association of Song Taaba, Burkina Faso. P16 - Nguyen Van Trung (Vietnam) : Fertiliser value in biogas technology systems in Vietnam P17 - Mark J. Brotman (USA): Recovery and Utilization of By-Products from Greenhouse Operations with respect to Recirculating Aquaculture, Hydroponic and Mushroom Cultivation Systems ++++ Scope of Conference The central focus of the Internet Conference is on the analysis of material flows in integrated bio-systems. The scope includes 11 themes : 1) Municipal Biodegradable Solid Recycling and Conversion Systems MFA of systems that includes recycling and conversion of biodegradables, food scraps, yard trimmings and greens into bio-fuels, organic fertiliser, animal feed, biochemicals, etc. using biological sub-systems such as anaerobic digestion, composting, vermi-culture, etc.. New methods, alternative natural systems for control or remediation to avoid the need for landfills, conventional wastewater plants, etc. 2) Wastewater Treatment and Utilisation Systems MFA of systems using plants, microbes, algae, shellfish in wastewater treatment and use of wastewaters in crop irrigation, aquaculture, wetlands, forests, etc. crop-aquaculture, livestock-aquaculture systems, integrated aquaculture/polyculture systems, etc.. 3) Integrated Aquaculture Systems MFA of aquatic food production systems such as integrated aquaculture/polyculture systems, fish-shellfish-seaweed systems, aquaculture-terrestrial integrated bio-systems, silvifisheries, fish ranching, etc. 4) Small Scale Farming Systems MFA of household bio-systems with sub-systems like livestock, biogas digesters, fish ponds, compost, vermicompost, vegetable gardens and crops plots, fruit trees, aquatic plants, etc. 5) Large Plantations, Farms and Feedlots MFA of corporate and cooperative agricultural systems using of agro-crop residues and livestock manure for production of feed, food, fibre, chemicals, energy, etc. 6) Constructed Building Complex, greenhouse and Eco-house Systems MFA of bio-systems in/on buildings for waste water treatment, food production, hydroponics, aquaponics; waste recycling or using animals and compost to heat greenhouses, etc. 7) Industry and Eco-Industrial Parks MFA of bio-systems for cleaner production, industries and industrial parks to utilise primary by-product wastes for biochemicals, food and energy production in co-operative implmentation of shared systems for complementary recovery and use. 8) Resource Utilization and Conservation in Sustainable Natural Eco-Systems MFA of bio-systems for sustainable resource utilisation e.g. in watersheds, reservoirs, lakes, river basins, community forests, natural parks, coral reefs, mangroves, etc.. 9) Small Islands, Community, Villages and Cities MFA of IBSs for sustainable living in human communities for urban ecology, urban agriculture and environmental management; 10) Global Issues related to Food Security, Environment and Climate Change e.g. regional studies (national, regional and global) where integrated bio-systems are used to play crucial roles to sustain food security, zero wastes and zero wastewater discharge; and reduction of greenhouse gases. 11) Tools and Methodology for Design and Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems. e.g. softwares and methods for material flow analysis showing how it is applied to an example(s) in an integrated bio-systems --end From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 18 09:33:25 1999 -0500 Received: from net.bio.net (net.bio.net [198.94.52.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29510 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id GAA01477 for symbios-list; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id GAA01471; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:33:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911181433.GAA01471@net.bio.net> To: nobody@net.bio.net X-Really-To: symbios@net.bio.net Newsgroups: bionet.biology.symbiosis Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:58:19 GMT From: Fluorescence 2000 Courses Subject: Fluorescence 2000 Courses Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 385 FLUORESCENCE 2000 Advanced Courses of Fluorescence Microscopy and Confocal Microscopy >From Monday the 16th till Friday the 20th of October 2000, in palazzo Feltrinelli Gargnano (BS), Lake of Garda, Italy. University of Milan- Italy Courses with an eminently practical approach concerning the use of all light microscopy, including confocal microscopy. For further details, please contact Dr. Annalisa Imberti, Institute of Human Anatomy, University of Milan. Via Mangiagalli 31, 20133 Milan (Italy) or visit our Internet site http://users.unimi.it/~fl2000/ Tel. +390270646234 Fax. +39022364082 e-mail fluorescence2000@unimi.it From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 10:12:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00370 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05378 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05369 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bermuda-asy-22.rutgers.edu (bermuda-asy-22.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.150]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA04035; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:40:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: bermuda-asy-22.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.150] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <383439BE.78C3@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:39:10 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet Subject: Re: chlorpyrifos References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A000D@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 386 Wilson, Dale wrote: > "Chemical trespass" is just some term you made up. If my meaning is unclear, this was not my intention; allow me to spell out the correct interpretation of this terminology. "Trespass" in this sense is used to mean intrude or overstep a boundary. Intrusion is the presence of someone or something into a place or circumstance where it is unwelcome. The boundary being intruded in this case is a person's body. The agent of the intrusion is a chemical. > It has no legal meaning. You may be correct about that. I am not using legal terminology, since I have little expertise in that realm, and have no reason to believe that you do either. I am just using conversational English as understood by the educated person who is not a legal specialist. I find it quite interesting when a word used in the legal sense actually has a meaning diametrically opposed to and contradictory to its meaning in the standard spoken language of the people covered by that legal system. > And at the detection levels we are talking about, no biological meaning > either. What detection levels are those, exactly? >>> Loren: > > By this reasoning, if a person breaks into my home Dale: > I think you are setting up a straw-man argument here. These bad habits are > not analogous to chemical residues in your foods, because the residues have > no detectable effects. This is an exact analogy, and not a straw man at all. You are comparing presence of thing A with detectable effect of thing B, which is not a logical analogy. I am comparing presence of thing A with presence of thing B. Structurally, what is the difference between an unwelcome intruder in my home and an unwelcome chemical in my body? Both can be detected, one visually and one by analytical chemistry. An intruder in my home may do nothing but pass through. Maybe it's a short cut, right through my living room. It would be difficult to detect an "effect" of such an intrusion other than the sense of violation and threat experienced by my family. It is the presence which *IS* the problem, because it is unauthorized, unwelcome, not under the control of the individuals intruded upon. You appear to be making the case that, since chloropyrifos is a friend of yours and you don't consider his visit an intrusion, I mustn't either. I prefer to choose my own friends according to my own criteria. I do not, however, insist that you must welcome MY friends into YOUR home, in stark contrast to your position. Loren To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From dmhinds@acnet.net Thu Nov 18 14:13:36 1999 Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02259 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.173] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:12:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:09:56 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9548.991118@acnet.net> To: Ted Rogers CC: london@metalab.unc.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: the London Strategy -Reply -Reply In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 387 Hi Ted and all you fellow saneteers, Don't have much to say on the theme at this point, but will share it: We (human beings) are by nature, part of nature; and our activities should be consistent with natural systems. An artifice may be good or bad, more or less good or more or less bad, but the results will speak for themselves, in the long run. This is precisely the concept underlying sustainable agriculture. That which is congruent with biologically evolved systems that are in turn generous and productive, this is where the future lies. To the degree that we (people) learn to emulate fruit bearing plants (remember that the difference between an action and a substance is not so distinct as some might think - Einstein had something to say about this also), doing and building things that give rise to life as we know it, in it's must universal sense, this is not far removed from nature, this is helping nature (NOT being so stupid as to think we can REDO nature). Now - if we have to move a little dirt or water around, to help distribute natural things and we can do this without seriously disrupting natural systems that are now supporting life itself (including ours), this may be a very natural thing for any of us to do. (The words seriously and disrupting may give pause to some, but remember that the proportions of these things all become known, in time). Have I made myself clear? If so: Watch for true life examples, coming soon. If not: Watch for true life examples, coming soon. DH *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** Wednesday, November 17, 1999, 10:11:10 AM, you wrote: Ted> Lawrence, you said: Ted> "Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised Ted> beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this Ted> is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context." Ted> Yes, yes of course but the gardener building the raised bed may be an Ted> illustration of harmony with nature not something natural. (Actually Ted> gardeners who build traditional double dug raised beds, like myself, are Ted> maniacal not natural.) I have to look at agriculture-food production, Ted> synthetic construct impressed upon nature, can, should, must be Ted> harmonious but cannot be natural. Food production is synthetic. Food Ted> gathering (hunting and gathering) is natural, carrying capacity(of Ted> humans) is low. Agriculture is synthetic carrying capacity for humans is Ted> dramatically higher. Harmonized with nature through ecological Ted> principles Agriculture may be sustainable. Ted> Again I apologize, this may be semantics and irrelevant but I think that we Ted> should be cautious about how we use words and how those words Ted> might effect our prejudices. Besides I am an angry old fart studying to be Ted> a curmudgeon. Ted> Best, Ted> Ted From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 14:55:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03204 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15240 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:15:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15179 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.173] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:12:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:09:56 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9548.991118@acnet.net> To: Ted Rogers CC: london@metalab.unc.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: the London Strategy -Reply -Reply In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 388 Hi Ted and all you fellow saneteers, Don't have much to say on the theme at this point, but will share it: We (human beings) are by nature, part of nature; and our activities should be consistent with natural systems. An artifice may be good or bad, more or less good or more or less bad, but the results will speak for themselves, in the long run. This is precisely the concept underlying sustainable agriculture. That which is congruent with biologically evolved systems that are in turn generous and productive, this is where the future lies. To the degree that we (people) learn to emulate fruit bearing plants (remember that the difference between an action and a substance is not so distinct as some might think - Einstein had something to say about this also), doing and building things that give rise to life as we know it, in it's must universal sense, this is not far removed from nature, this is helping nature (NOT being so stupid as to think we can REDO nature). Now - if we have to move a little dirt or water around, to help distribute natural things and we can do this without seriously disrupting natural systems that are now supporting life itself (including ours), this may be a very natural thing for any of us to do. (The words seriously and disrupting may give pause to some, but remember that the proportions of these things all become known, in time). Have I made myself clear? If so: Watch for true life examples, coming soon. If not: Watch for true life examples, coming soon. DH *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** Wednesday, November 17, 1999, 10:11:10 AM, you wrote: Ted> Lawrence, you said: Ted> "Gophers dig burrows, worms do same, natural gardeners dig raised Ted> beds, bees build comb, wasps build nests. All of this is natural, all of this Ted> is structured. Structured does not equal synthetic in this context." Ted> Yes, yes of course but the gardener building the raised bed may be an Ted> illustration of harmony with nature not something natural. (Actually Ted> gardeners who build traditional double dug raised beds, like myself, are Ted> maniacal not natural.) I have to look at agriculture-food production, Ted> synthetic construct impressed upon nature, can, should, must be Ted> harmonious but cannot be natural. Food production is synthetic. Food Ted> gathering (hunting and gathering) is natural, carrying capacity(of Ted> humans) is low. Agriculture is synthetic carrying capacity for humans is Ted> dramatically higher. Harmonized with nature through ecological Ted> principles Agriculture may be sustainable. Ted> Again I apologize, this may be semantics and irrelevant but I think that we Ted> should be cautious about how we use words and how those words Ted> might effect our prejudices. Besides I am an angry old fart studying to be Ted> a curmudgeon. Ted> Best, Ted> Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 15:18:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03557 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA26764 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:38:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26665 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:37:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'sgarrett@wsu.edu'" Subject: FW: Farm-to-table Conference Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:37:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 389 -----Original Message----- From: Steven Garrett [ mailto:sgarrett@wsu.edu ] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 2:32 PM To: Andy Clark Subject: Farm-to-table Conference Hello Andy, Could you post this to sanet for me? Steven Farm-To-Table: Growing Healthy Foodsheds and Community March 24-26, 2000 Olympia, WA The Cascade Harvest Coalition, Washington State Department of Agriculture, and Washington State University Cooperative Extension are excited to announce a unique conference designed to promote the development of healthy, sustainable food systems. "Farm-to-Table" will be a three day event to explore the many connections between the food we eat and the health of our local farms, culture and communities. Utilizing an analogy of the "foodshed" to describe where food originates and how it flows into and through our communities, this conference will be of importance to anyone who cares about the future of our food supply, local farms, and healthy communities. Interactive discussion between the culinary community, policy makers, farmers, marketers, consumers and health professionals will include such dynamic topics as: The impact of a globalized food system on consumers, farmers, and communities; llinkages between chefs and farmers; biodiversity on the farm; environmental nutrition and the health benefits of eating locally produced food; grassroots and public programs to preserve farmland,... just to name a few! Invited speakers for this event will include: Joan Dye Gussow, Nutritionist and Professor Emeritus of Nutrition Education at Teachers College, Columbia University, member of the National Organic Standards Board, and author of Chicken Little, Tomato Sauce and Agriculture: Who Will Produce Tomorrow's Food? (1992); Fred Kirschenmann, farmer, activist, and author of "Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World . . . And Is That the Right Question?"; Wes Jackson, founder of The Land Institute and author of books such as, New Roots for Agriculture, and Becoming Native to This Place; Michael Ableman, farmer and author of From the Good Earth; Jack Kloppenburg, Professor of Rural Sociology at the University of Wisconsin, author of First the Seed and the essay, "Coming into the Foodshed"; and Buck Levin, Professor of Nutrition at Bastyr University and author of Environmental Nutrition: Understanding the Link Between Environment, Food Quality and Disease. We have also invited some nationally known chefs. The event will take place on the campus of The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington, 60 miles south of Seattle. Friday tours will explore the food system of the South Puget Sound, including the Organic Farm at the Evergreen State College. Come be part of an important dialog about food and healthy communities. For more information, please contact: Curtis Beus Washington State University Cooperative Extension P.O. Box 863 Port Angeles, WA 98362-0149 360-417-2279 beusc@wsu.edu -OR - Leslie Zenz Washington State Dept. of Agriculture P.O. Box 42560 Olympia, WA 98504 (360) 902-1891 lzenz@agr.wa.gov To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 15:32:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03773 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00919 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:46:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ultra.unicomp.net (mail.unicomp.net [209.41.64.70]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00770 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (209-41-65-70.dal.dialup.unicomp.net [209.41.65.70]) by ultra.unicomp.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19603 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:44:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <010f01bf31fd$1eeb7ea0$de6d29d1@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Lynn Magedson" <> From: "Lynn Magedson" To: Subject: Need info. for talk show Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:42:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010C_01BF31CA.D3661260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 390 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01BF31CA.D3661260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A local radio station is needing a guest to speak about the potential = hazards of GMO's. We need a person with all the facts, the closer to the = Dallas Texas area the better. You will speak on the local PBS radio = station tomorrow at 10am ! Conterpoint will be a person pro-GMO. Please e-mail me or call Marla Crockett at 214-740-9349 Lynn Magedson Good Earth Organic Farm ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01BF31CA.D3661260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A local radio station is needing a = guest to speak=20 about the potential hazards of GMO's. We need a person with all the = facts, the=20 closer to the Dallas Texas area the better. You will speak on the local = PBS=20 radio station tomorrow at 10am !
 
Conterpoint will be a person = pro-GMO.
 
Please e-mail me or call Marla Crockett = at=20 214-740-9349
 
Lynn Magedson
Good Earth Organic = Farm
------=_NextPart_000_010C_01BF31CA.D3661260-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:10:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04657 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28748 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:39:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28681 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Ensuring Small Farmers Know About Crop Insurance Discount -Forwa rded Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:38:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 391 DECEMBER 1 DEADLINE ON THIS INFORMATION FOR FARMERS. SEE ATTACHED INFORMATION AT BOTTOM OF THIS MESSAGE, TOO. Contacts for this program: Sharon_Hestvik@wdc.usda.gov RMA Small Farm Coordinator Eric Edgington (202) 690-2539 Eric_Edgington@wdc.usda.gov Subject: Ensuring Small Farmers Know About Crop Insurance Discount The Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act includes $400 million in assistance to provide premium discounts to producers who purchase crop insurance for the 2000 crop year. It's important that producers have adequate coverage in 2000. To ensure that all producers can take advantage of this incentive, I'm asking for your help in distributing information about the premium discount. Please help Risk Management Agency get the word out by including it in your e-mail messages, newsletters, publications, and your website as appropriate. Producers growing crop year 2000 crops with insurance sales closing dates between June 30, 1999, and December 1, 1999, have until December 1, 1999, to obtain coverage. Since this sales closing date is fast approaching, this information should be shared with producers as soon as possible. If you have any questions, please e-mail me at Sharon_Hestvik@wdc.usda.gov RMA Small Farm Coordinator RISK MANAGEMENT AGENCY PROGRAM ANNOUNCEMENT Eric Edgington (202) 690-2539 Eric_Edgington@wdc.usda.gov INSURANCE DEADLINES NEAR FOR DOZENS OF CROPS Washington, Nov. 1, 1999 - Risk Management Agency (RMA) Administrator Ken Ackerman announced that farmers growing a wide range of crops - from oats to carambola - need to sign up for insurance by December 1, 1999, to take advantage of an estimated 25 percent premium discount on 2000 crop production. "We have identified dozens of insurance plans with sales closing dates between June 30, 1999, and December 1, 1999, that are eligible for the discount," said Ackerman. "December 1 is right around the corner so producers need to act quickly to benefit from this opportunity. Because sales closing dates vary by growing area and crop, producers should contact a crop insurance agent immediately to discuss sign up dates and their coverage options." Funding for the discount was provided by the Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act. Currently insured producers may increase their coverage before December 1. Like last year's premium discount, the amount of the discount will depend on crop prices and how many farmers choose to insure or increase their protection. Current law limits the premium discount to crops grown for harvest during the 2000 crop year. Certain tree crops that have an insurance sales closing date of December 1, 1999, are not eligible for the discount because they are crop year 2001 crops. USDA has recommended that Congress make these crops eligible for the discount. Producers should contact a crop insurance agent to discuss their options. A listing of agents is available at local Farm Service Agency offices or at the RMA website at www.rma.usda.gov/tools/agents. INSURANCE PLANS REQUIRING A RAPID RESPONSE Sales Closing Crop Name 07/01/1999 CABBAGE 07/31/1999 FORAGE SEEDING 07/31/1999 FRESH MARKET SWEET CORN 07/31/1999 FRESH MARKET TOMATOES 07/31/1999 PEPPERS 07/31/1999 RAISINS 08/15/1999 CABBAGE 08/31/1999 CANOLA 08/31/1999 FRESH MARKET BEANS 08/31/1999 ONIONS 08/31/1999 SUGAR BEETS 09/30/1999 ADJUSTED GROSS REVENUE 09/30/1999 BARLEY 09/30/1999 CANOLA 09/30/1999 CULTIVATED WILD RICE 09/30/1999 FORAGE PRODUCTION 09/30/1999 MINT 09/30/1999 OATS 09/30/1999 POTATOES 09/30/1999 RYE 09/30/1999 STRAWBERRIES 09/30/1999 SUGARCANE 09/30/1999 WHEAT 10/31/1999 BARLEY 10/31/1999 OATS 10/31/1999 WHEAT 11/15/1999 AVOCADO TREES 11/15/1999 MANGO TREES 11/20/1999 ADJUSTED GROSS REVENUE 11/20/1999 APPLES 11/20/1999 BLUEBERRIES 11/20/1999 CHERRIES 11/20/1999 CRANBERRIES 11/20/1999 GRAPES 11/20/1999 PEACHES 11/20/1999 PEARS 11/20/1999 PECANS 11/20/1999 GRAPEFRUIT ** 11/20/1999 GRAPEFRUIT TREES 11/20/1999 RUBY RED GRAPEFRUIT ** INSURANCE PLANS REQUIRING A RAPID RESPONSE Sales Closing Crop Name 11/20/1999 ALL OTHER GRAPEFRUIT ** 11/20/1999 LEMONS ** 11/20/1999 LEMON TREES 11/20/1999 LIME TREES 11/20/1999 ALL OTHER CITRUS TREES 11/20/1999 MANDARINS ** 11/20/1999 MINNEOLA TANGELOS ** 11/20/1999 ORANGE TREES 11/20/1999 CARAMBOLA TREES 11/20/1999 NAVEL ORANGES ** 11/20/1999 SWEET ORANGES ** 11/20/1999 VALENCIA ORANGES ** 11/20/1999 EARLY & MIDSEASON ORANGES ** 11/20/1999 LATE ORANGES ** 11/20/1999 ORLANDO TANGELOS ** 11/20/1999 RIO RED & STAR RUBY ** 11/20/1999 CITRUS TREES I 11/20/1999 CITRUS TREES II 11/20/1999 CITRUS TREES III 11/20/1999 CITRUS TREES IV 11/20/1999 CITRUS TREES V 11/30/1999 AVOCADOS ** 11/30/1999 CLAMS 11/30/1999 FORAGE PRODUCTION 11/30/1999 POTATOES 12/31/1999 ALMONDS 12/31/1999 MACADAMIA NUTS ** 12/31/1999 MACADAMIA TREES 12/31/1999 POTATOES 12/31/1999 SAFFLOWER 12/31/1999 SUGAR BEETS ** NOTE: All citrus fruit (not trees) in Arizona, California, Florida, and Texas; Avocado in California (not Florida); and Hawaii macadamia nuts are crop year 2001 crops and are not eligible for the estimated 25 percent premium discount, which currently applies only to crop year 2000 crops. However, a legislative remedy to include additional crops is now pending before Congress. PREMIUM DISCOUNT MEANS MORE PROTECTION FOR MINIMAL COST EXAMPLE: A wheat producer with 400 acres, a 40 bu./acre average yield, and a $3.15 price election. 65% Coverage 70% Coverage Protection $32,760.00 ($81.90/A) $35,280.00 ($88.20/A) Expected producer cost $1,050.00 ($2.63/acre) $1,586.00 ($3.97/acre) Estimated 25% premium discount -$263.00 -$397.00 Actual producer cost $787.00 ($1.97/acre) $1,189.00 ($2.97/acre) In this example, the actual producer cost for 70-percent coverage ($1,189.00) is only $139.00 more than the expected producer cost of 65 percent ($1,050.00). This means that the producer can obtain a $6.30 per acre increase in protection for only $0.35 more per acre, or $2,520.00 increased wheat protection for only $139.00 in additional premium. NOTE: This example is for illustration only. Actual costs and protection will vary. See a crop insurance agent for information specific to your operation. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:10:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04661 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27079 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27074 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03740 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12402 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:30:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:30:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Re[2]: the London Strategy -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: <9548.991118@acnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 392 On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Douglas Hinds wrote: > To the degree that we (people) learn to emulate fruit bearing plants > (remember that the difference between an action and a substance is not > so distinct as some might think - Einstein had something to say about You are what you eat. Striving to practice agriculture, at all levels of activity, in as perfect harmony with Nature as is possible should be the goal of everyone from the home gardener to industry. Considering the progress mankind has made over the centuries shouldn't it be possible that this goal is adopted universally? One place to start is to preserve and protect all aspects of third world traditional agriculture. Other factors that might get in the way include, global warming, an ice age, extreme flood or drought and a reversal of the Earth's magnetic polarity (exposing life on Earth to a period of devastating exposure to solar wind and cosmic rays). > this also), doing and building things that give rise to life as we > know it, in it's must universal sense, this is not far removed from > nature, this is helping nature (NOT being so stupid as to think we can > REDO nature). I think this is a key to understanding nature and how we can live in harmony with it: "striving to do & build things that give rise to life as we know it." Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:10:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04665 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28865 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:40:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28801 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:39:29 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'iffs listserv'" Subject: USDA APPROVES PILOT EXPORT TRAINING PROGRAM FOR SMALL AND MINORIT Y PRODUCERS Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:39:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 393 Release No. 0448.99 FAS PR 0569-99 Media: Jill Lee (202) 720-7939 Public contact: Christine Durbin(202) 690-4369 emo@fas.usda.gov USDA APPROVES PILOT EXPORT TRAINING PROGRAM FOR SMALL AND MINORITY PRODUCERS WASHINGTON, Nov. 10, 1999-Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman today announced that the U.S. Department of Agriculture will fund a three-state pilot program in Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi to train small and minority producers in export marketing. "For many small and minority producers, limited local marketing opportunities present perhaps the leading threat to economic survival, especially in isolated or depressed rural communities," Glickman said. "Exports can provide the additional sales opportunities that may help them grow and prosper." The goal of the pilot program is to train participants on the basics of international marketing to help them identify, research, and take advantage of potential export opportunities. About 30 farmers and members of producer cooperatives, processing firms, and other small and minority agricultural businesses will be trained as trainers for several organizations representing small and minority producers in the region. The pilot program is expected to last 2 years. The export marketing training pilot program is funded through the Emerging Markets Program of USDA's Foreign Agricultural Service. Additional funding is being provided by the Southern United States Trade Association (SUSTA) and the international Small Business Development Centers in the three states. Other partners in the program include the state departments of agriculture in each state and three Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs). The Alabama Department of Agriculture and Industries, Georgia Department of Agriculture, and Mississippi Department of Agriculture and Commerce will help select candidates for the training. The HBCU institutions -- Tuskegee University, Fort Valley State University, and Alcorn State University -- will help recruit participants and evaluate the effectiveness of the training, which will be conducted by the international Small Business Development Center in each state. The training program will begin in the spring of 2000. Applications will be available in December 1999 from the following state contacts: Georgia--Fred Harrison, Jr., College of Agriculture, Fort Valley State University, 105 State University Drive, Ft. Valley, GA 31030; E-mail: harrison@mail.fvsu.edu; fax: (912) 827-3062; phone: (912) 825-6344. Alabama--Miles Robinson or Robert Zabawa,100 Campbell Hall, George Washington Carver Agr. Exp. Station, Tuskegee University, Tuskegee, AL 36088; E-mail: zabawar@tusk.edu or miles@tusk.edu; fax: (334) 724-4451; phone: (334) 727-8114 or (800) 720-8698 Mississippi--Samuel Scott, Alcorn State University, Mississippi Small Farm Development Center,1000 ASU Drive, Box 1080, Alcorn State, MS 39096-7500; E-mail: tainans@aol.com; fax: (601) 877-6219; phone: (601) 877-3948. # USDA news releases and media advisories are available on the Internet. Access the USDA home page on the World Wide Web at: http://www.usda.gov To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:26:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05061 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02252 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:48:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA02229 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:41:03 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:22:37 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, maroc@islandnet.com Subject: chlorpyrifos -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 Sorry to offend you Don, I just did not have any documentation to quote, frankly this may only have been here say and I just did not take the time to dig it up and I'm not going to. If it will make you happy just drop the offending statement. This is worse than some of the assumptions that are being made about minute dosage toxicity and endocrine disruption? I don't think so, and I continue to have some concern about those issues and think that we need a lot more data. I also think that we need to realize that many complex organic molecules are found in nature and we need to understand which are a real problem and which are of no great concern and at what concentrations these concerns change. Frankly, I am convinced that the emotional approach is going to make us miss some serious problems and waste time on issues that are irrelevant. I thought the whole idea of wholism was to begin to look at the whole picture rather than concentrating on tiny little aspects of the system. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 19:29:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08377 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15965 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:53:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15933 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (81.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.111]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA19963 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:50:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911182350.RAA19963@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: FYI Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:52:41 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 395 NOW IN PRINT SARE PUB FEATURES "HOW-TO'S" OF ON-FARM RESEARCH A new, no-cost, 12-page bulletin for farmers and ranchers, and the Extension educators who work with them, offers outlines on how to conduct research on farms. Published by the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Program's Sustainable Agriculture Network, the bulletin contains practical tips for crop and livestock producers, as well as an in-depth comprehensive list of resources. Co-written by a team of research scientists, the bulletin features many SARE grant recipients. The publication is available at or by calling (301) 504-6422. Ask for "Put Your Ideas to the Test: How to Conduct Research on Your Farm or Ranch." Your contact is Valerie Berton, SARE Communications Specialist, on (301) 405-3186 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 20:30:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10470 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19748 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:55:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19713 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.185] (r-66.111.alltel.net [166.102.66.111]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA27830 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:53:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:55:12 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: European Vigor/Native woe Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 396 Dear Sanet Readers, A week or so ago in connection with foreign species such as kudzu and water hyacinth which have proven spectacularly suited to new environments in America I made mention of the "vigor" of my European ancestors who pretty thoroughly overwhelmed my Native American ancestors (I have both). I was roundly criticised by one reader for some of the things this European "vigor" implied. Since I am neither ignorant nor unaware of the history on both sides of the Atlantic I'd like to post this tribute from our Georgia Greens List to European peoples' dominance once they invaded this continent. I'm certainly not saying this dominance was fair, nor am I wringing my hands about it. It is what it is, and I think it deserves a good look. If we want the future to be better than the present we need to consider the present realities without flinching. Best, Hugh Lovel From: "Suzanne veaudry" To: Subject: Thanksgiving perspective Thanksgiving: A National Day of Mourning for Indians by Moonanum James and Mahtowin Munro Every year since 1970, United American Indians of New England have organized the National Day of Mourning observance in Plymouth at noon on Thanksgiving Day. Every year, hundreds of Native people and our supporters from all four directions join us. Every year, including this year, Native people from throughout the Americas will speak the truth about our history and about current issues and struggles we are involved in. Why do hundreds of people stand out in the cold rather than sit home eating turkey and watching football? Do we have something against a harvest festival? Of course not. But Thanksgiving in this country -- and in particular in Plymouth --is much more than a harvest home festival. It is a celebration of the pilgrim mythology. According to this mythology, the pilgrims arrived, the Native people fed them and welcomed them, the Indians promptly faded into the background, and everyone lived happily ever after. The truth is a sharp contrast to that mythology. The pilgrims are glorified and mythologized because the circumstances of the first English-speaking colony in Jamestown were frankly too ugly (for example, they turned to cannibalism to survive) to hold up as an effective national myth. The pilgrims did not find an empty land any more than Columbus "discovered" anything. Every inch of this land is Indian land. The pilgrims (who did not even call themselves pilgrims) did not come here seeking religious freedom; they already had that in Holland. They came here as part of a commercial venture. They introduced sexism, racism, anti-lesbian and gay bigotry, jails, and the class system to these shores. One of the very first things they did when they arrived on Cape Cod -- before they even made it to Plymouth -- was to rob Wampanoag graves at Corn Hill and steal as much of the Indians' winter provisions of corn and beans as they were able to carry. They were no better than any other group of Europeans when it came to their treatment of the Indigenous peoples here. And no, they did not even land at that sacred shrine called Plymouth Rock, a monument to racism and oppression which we are proud to say we buried in 1995. The first official "Day of Thanksgiving" was proclaimed in 1637 by Governor Winthrop. He did so to celebrate the safe return of men from the Massachusetts Bay Colony who had gone to Mystic, Connecticut to participate in the massacre of over 700 Pequot women, children, and men. About the only true thing in the whole mythology is that these pitiful European strangers would not have survived their first several years in "New England" were it not for the aid of Wampanoag people. What Native people got in return for this help was genocide, theft of our lands, and never-ending repression. We are treated either as quaint relics from the past, or are, to most people, virtually invisible. When we dare to stand up for our rights, we are considered unreasonable. When we speak the truth about the history of the European invasion, we are often told to "go back where we came from." Our roots are right here. They do not extend across any ocean. National Day of Mourning began in 1970 when a Wampanoag man, Wamsutta Frank James, was asked to speak at a state dinner celebrating the 350th anniversary of the pilgrim landing. He refused to speak false words in praise of the white man for bringing civilization to us poor heathens. Native people from throughout the Americas came to Plymouth, where they mourned their forebears who had been sold into slavery, burned alive, massacred, cheated, and mistreated since the arrival of the Pilgrims in 1620. But the commemoration of National Day of Mourning goes far beyond the circumstances of 1970. Can we give thanks as we remember Native political prisoner Leonard Peltier, who was framed up by the FBI and has been falsely imprisoned since 1976? Despite mountains of evidence exonerating Peltier and the proven misconduct of federal prosecutors and the FBI, Peltier has been denied a new trial. Bill Clinton apparently does not feel that particular pain and has refused to grant clemency to this innocent man. To Native people, the case of Peltier is one more ordeal in a litany of wrongdoings committed by the U.S. government against us. While the media in New England present images of the "Pequot miracle" in Connecticut, the vast majority of Native people continue to live in the most abysmal poverty. Can we give thanks for the fact that, on many reservations, unemployment rates surpass fifty percent? Our life expectancies are much lower, our infant mortality and teen suicide rates much higher, than those of white Americans. Racist stereotypes of Native people, such as those perpetuated by the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, and countless local and national sports teams, persist. Every single one of the more than 350 treaties that Native nations signed has been broken by the U.S. government. The bipartisan budget cuts have severely reduced educational opportunities for Native youth and the development of new housing on reservations, and have caused cause deadly cutbacks in health-care and other necessary services. Are we to give thanks for being treated as unwelcome in our own country? Or perhaps we are expected to give thanks for the war that is being waged by the Mexican government against Indigenous peoples there, with the military aid of the U.S. in the form of helicopters and other equipment? When the descendants of the Aztec, Maya, and Inca flee to the U.S., the descendants of the wash-ashore pilgrims term them 'illegal aliens" and hunt them down. We object to the "Pilgrim Progress" parade and to what goes on in Plymouth because they are making millions of tourist dollars every year from the false pilgrim mythology. That money is being made off the backs of our slaughtered indigenous ancestors. Increasing numbers of people are seeking alternatives to such holidays as Columbus Day and Thanksgiving. They are coming to the conclusion that, if we are ever to achieve some sense of community, we must first face the truth about the history of this country and the toll that history has taken on the lives of millions of Indigenous, Black, Latino, Asian, and poor and working class white people. The myth of Thanksgiving, served up with dollops of European superiority and manifest destiny, just does not work for many people in this country. As Malcolm X once said about the African-American experience in America, "We did not land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us." Exactly. [Mahtowin Munro (Lakota) and Moonanum James (Wampanoag) are co-leaders of United American Indians of New England.] ************************************************ Suzanne Veaudry National Wildlife Federation Southeastern Natural Resource Center 1330 West Peachtree Street, Suite 475 Atlanta, GA 30309 (404)876-8733 www.nwf.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 21:55:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00757 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA11042 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:23:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11029 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:23:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from unity.ncsu.edu (2405p200.ppath.ncsu.edu [152.1.176.53]) by uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/UR01Feb99) with ESMTP id VAA28632 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:21:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3834B4F3.F0E1E57E@unity.ncsu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:24:51 -0500 From: Russ Bulluck X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: European Vigor/Native woe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 397 European settlers have dominated most cultures they have encountered (with the exception of some tropical cultures). It's had as much to do with the diseases they bring as the ideology they had. Read "Ecological Imperialism. The Biological Expansion of Europe, 900-1900" by Alfred W. Crosby. The book has a good deal to say about the "spread" of Europeans across the continents like a disease (in fact smallpox was one of the big reasons Europeans were able to colonize so many locales). I think in this time of thanksgiving, we need to remember that the United States is a vast collection of cultures and peoples. And no one group is more important than the next. . . In fact, without the whole, the parts lose their power. (You know. . . "United we stand, divided we fall.") Just my two cents. . . Russ Hugh Lovel wrote: > Dear Sanet Readers, > > A week or so ago in connection with foreign species such as kudzu and water > hyacinth which have proven spectacularly suited to new environments in > America I made mention of the "vigor" of my European ancestors who pretty > thoroughly overwhelmed my Native American ancestors (I have both). I was > roundly criticised by one reader for some of the things this European > "vigor" implied. Since I am neither ignorant nor unaware of the history on > both sides of the Atlantic I'd like to post this tribute from our Georgia > Greens List to European peoples' dominance once they invaded this continent. > > I'm certainly not saying this dominance was fair, nor am I wringing my > hands about it. It is what it is, and I think it deserves a good look. If > we want the future to be better than the present we need to consider the > present realities without flinching. > > Best, > Hugh Lovel -- Russ Bulluck Ph.D. Candidate Department of Plant Pathology North Carolina State University PO Box 7616 Raleigh, NC 27695-7616 http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/plantpath/Personnel/Students/webpage.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be studied. --Sir E. John Russell The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 18 23:02:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01361 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21314 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21212 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01135; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18137; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:31:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:31:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: VEAUDRY@nwf.org, Hugh Lovel cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: European Vigor/Native woe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 398 On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Hugh Lovel wrote: > From: "Suzanne veaudry" > To: > Subject: Thanksgiving perspective > > Thanksgiving: A National Day of Mourning for Indians > by Moonanum James and Mahtowin Munro <......> > Can we give thanks as we remember Native political prisoner Leonard > Peltier, who was framed up by the FBI and has been falsely imprisoned since > 1976? Despite mountains of evidence exonerating Peltier and the proven > misconduct of federal prosecutors and the FBI, Peltier has been denied a > new trial. Bill Clinton apparently does not feel that particular pain and > has refused to grant clemency to this innocent man. Obtain a videotape copy of an old PBS Frontline documentary about the Indian tribe our West whose oil/gas-rich land was stolen from them by our government, who tried unsuccesfully to get their state's politicians to get it back for them, who were advised to make a donation to Clinton's re-election campaign. They donated about 1/2 million dollars, against the advice of their tribe's treasurer. After Clinton was elected they pursued their case through Clinton's aides and were told, essentially, "that was just lunch money" and that they needed to hire one or more professional Washington lobbyists to press their case in the "proper" channels within the Beltline. A lawyer who was recommended to them, that they eventually hired (at 60-90K$/mo), saw 'em comin'. He already had a contract drawn up giving himself a percentage (I think 10-15%) of the profits from sales of oil or gas from their land, should he get it back for them. I have not heard what eventually happened in this case. I wonder if Clinton offered to return their contribution, which at the time was all they had in the tribe's bank account, profits from one single casino on reservation land. Does anyone know any more about this? Maybe the PBS website has an update - I probably should have looked before posting this. > To Native people, the case of Peltier is one more ordeal in a litany of > wrongdoings committed by the U.S. government against us. See above. > Or perhaps we are expected to give thanks for the war that is being waged > by the Mexican government against Indigenous peoples there, with the > military aid of the U.S. in the form of helicopters and other equipment? Chiapas. > The myth of Thanksgiving, served up with dollops of European superiority > and manifest destiny, just does not work for many people in this country. > As Malcolm X once said about the African-American experience in America, > "We did not land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us." Exactly. He also said something to the effect that the group of people African Americans needed to worry most about were white liberals. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Nov 18 23:01:39 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01344 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA16851 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:29:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16736 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id LAA29444; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:26:44 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id LAA24902; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:33:20 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911190333.LAA24902@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 19 Nov 99 09:10:44 Subject: Re: Re[2]: the London Strategy -Reply -Reply To: dmhinds@acnet.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 399 >We (human beings) are by nature, part of nature; and our activities >should be consistent with natural systems. An artifice may be good Corporations -- and I am referring to the legal person separate from the stockholders, directors or management -- are not part of nature. And there lies the problem. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 09:19:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03790 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07387 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07285 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from the-network-asy-57.rutgers.edu (the-network-asy-57.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.57]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA07543 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:47:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: the-network-asy-57.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.57] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <38357F04.62FE@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:47:00 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: responses to chloropyrifos question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 400 As promised, I am reporting the results of the question on a recent exam I gave to a class of college sophomores. Viewpoint #1: "The fact that traces of this can be found in human urine is not, in itself, indication of a problem." Viewpoint #2: "The fact that traces of this can be found in human urine is a problem, even if no evidence of harm is been found." Students were asked to select one of the above viewpoints and back it up with their reasoning. It was made clear that both answers were "correct," for the purposes of grading, the criterion was internal consistency, i.e., that the reasoning match the viewpoint expressed. Final results: 36 out of 134 chose Viewpoint #1, citing generally the lack of evidence of harm, and stating that it is unrealistic to expect that industrial chemicals can be kept out of the environment. They accept the relative mean risk rationale. 98 out of 134 chose Viewpoint #2, stating generally that it is not okay with them to be exposed to such things against their will and without their knowledge and consent. They want their personal choices to determine their level of exposure to anything, and the essence of this is whether the exposure is voluntary and known or involuntary and unknown. Naturally, the reasoning embodied in the positions above are not confined to chloropyrifos. These are value statements and are not to be interpreted as matters of law or chemistry. LM To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 09:33:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03979 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14975 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:10:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14932 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan (bsg-ma2b-105.ix.netcom.com [209.110.253.105]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07246 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:07:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <02b201bf3297$835fb000$69fd6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: value added question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:08:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 401 This topic has been kicked around the CSA list and possibly this list, but I have a question. I have tried to search the net and can not find the answer. I am looking for online (if possible, print ok) for the regulations one would have to follow to produce say jam/jelly, or baked goods, or any other value added edible produced. Most of the raw materials would be farm produced. I ask the above question because we here on the farm must come up with a business plan or even simply a wish for future growth. My husband and I are taking a course Agricultural Business Training Program (via Greenfield Community College and the Massachusetts Dept. of Food and Ag.) and developing a business plan and working on marketing and plans for increasing profits will be part of our homework :). We plan this summer to build a barn/store. While we might not be able to afford all the bells and whistle at the beginning it would be good to get the floor footprint in place. We have no idea yet as to the viability of this ie codes etc. but picture this. Three floors: underground level (facing south front able to fully open, decrease or eliminate dampness) house the animals, ground level store and maybe small commercial kitchen, walk in cooler, foot print for future milk room (small one cow) one of our projected ingredients in school tours, our farm used to be a dairy farm my husband is well versed in dairy cow care. Top floor loft area probably will never see hay, but used as a meeting room for CSA events and maybe other events. So can anyone point me in the right direction. I know I may be pointed in the right direction at the class but I wanted to go into looking oh so smart :) Thanks Beth To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 12:34:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08856 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22625 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:43:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-t.missouri.edu [128.206.2.27]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22548 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from missouri.edu ([128.206.61.172]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA1732560 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:41:03 -0600 Message-ID: <38357D14.4C689CB7@missouri.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:38:45 -0600 From: Mary Hendrickson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Subject: Re: value added question References: <02b201bf3297$835fb000$69fd6ed1@dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 402 Beth: >From my limited understanding, it is very difficult to get online versions of these regulations because many times they are locale dependent. In Missouri, for instance, inspectable kitchens (a necessity for making jam) differ from county to county since each county's health department is in charge of inspections. Probably the best resource is Neil Hamilton's recently published "Legal Guide to Direct Marketing" which will help answer some of your questions. I would think the MA Dept. of Ag. would be able to help you with the regulations. Again, there are no one size fits all online regulations because they vary so much. Another place you might check is: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~acenet/ which is the Applachian Center for Economic Networks which sponsors Food Ventures projects. Click on the green glass jar above teh ACEnet logo on the home page and you can find out lots of info! Mary -- Mary Hendrickson, Ph.D. Network Coordinator Food Circles Networking Project University of Missouri Outreach and Extension Department of Rural Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 Tele: 573-882-7463 Fax: 573-882-1473 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 13:14:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09823 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22145 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:44:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f160.hotmail.com [216.32.181.160]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22132 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 97959 invoked by uid 0); 19 Nov 1999 17:42:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19991119174208.97958.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 216.78.9.25 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:42:08 PST X-Originating-IP: [216.78.9.25] From: "Troy Olney" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: studies on double digging Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:42:08 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 403 I am looking for any scientific studies done on double digging. I am presently working on a fairly simple project comparing double digging with rotary tillage and no-till, looking specifically at soil moisture and organic matter content. If anyone knows where I could find any information (for references) I would really appreciate it. Troy Olney University of Louisiana at Lafayette ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 13:14:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09827 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23817 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:49:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.nrcs.hqnet.usda.gov ([199.128.216.202]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23761 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from SCSNet-Message_Server by mail.nrcs.hqnet.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:46:17 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:45:41 -0500 From: "Marc Safley" To: Subject: New York Times Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id MAA23778 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 404 This is to call your attention to page A25 of the New York Times for today, November 19, 1999, where there is an article covering the first of three Food and Drug Administration public meetings on bioengineered food. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 13:30:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10096 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00917 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:00:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00904 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.6] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:55:08 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6496.991119@acnet.net> To: Roberto Verzola CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[4]: the London Strategy -Reply -Reply X-Sender: Douglas Hinds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 405 Hi Roberto, Friday, November 19, 1999, 3:10:44 AM, you wrote: > >We (human beings) are by nature, part of nature; and our activities > >should be consistent with natural systems. An artifice may be good Roberto> Corporations -- and I am referring to the legal person separate from Roberto> the stockholders, directors or management -- are not part of nature. Roberto> And there lies the problem. Roberto> Roberto Yes, that is often true. And we as people have to keep the corporations human from within, or make them human from without - and if necessary, pierce the corporate veil to castigate the perpetrators of any inhumanity emanating from that source. This too, can be done via institutional mechanisms, with real people in charge. And while this presumes that legislators too act as responsible human beings, this *understands* that when elected officials *fail* to behave as human beings (forgetting their own legacy), other means may well come into play. These other means are many, because apparently, history is a stream originating from natural sources and not easily dammed, and damned be those that try. (The case of Pinochet is an example. An army is a corporation, but so are the courts. The Berlin Wall is another case in point). What you are describing is no more than corruption A Spanish saying translates: You can't block out the sun with your thumb. The problem then, is that some people seem to have a hard time understanding this. While it's said: "You can't fight the system", the truth of the matter is that "the system" is nature. For that reason, it's good to study it and act accordingly (i.e., in harmony), and *that* I believe, is *human* nature (or will be, the nature of those that do survive). Sustainable everything (the Hinds Strategy). Douglas To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 14:47:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12887 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16333 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:34:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16321 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan (bsg-ma2b-105.ix.netcom.com [209.110.253.105]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA31705 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:32:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <034f01bf32bc$797c6860$69fd6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Value added Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:32:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 406 >Hi list, I got two nice responses to my question, both stressed the need to >look locally. So back to the drawing board netwise instead of using a broad >search engine first went to extension that was ok, then went to Ma. dept of >food and ag and searched Value added bingo: >www.massgrown.org/how_to/kitchen.htm between how and to is an underscore. >It basically says that the state has no problem with farms using their own >house kitchens to produce baked goods and "safe" (from a canning >perspective) products such as jelly(sugar),and relish (vinegar). HOWEVER it >is up to the town health inspector, bummer, our town has not proved to be >encouraging of farms, the state however is. The web page gives me some >places to contact. I just discussed a kitchen renovation with the fellow >who just completed our bathroom, so this maybe timely. Since I am going to >ripe the kitchen (lovely 1950's decor) apart anyway maybe I can put in >somethings the health dept would love. Plus my husband will be happier with >the remodel if its for business! :). Thanks Beth To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 15:57:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14225 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04600 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:16:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04544 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:05:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: FW: NAS/NRC Sustainability Report News Release Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:05:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 Seems to be the time for reports! My excuses to your inboxes... -----Original Message----- From: Crosby, Greg [NRE] [mailto:GCROSBY@intranet.reeusda.gov] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:52 PM To: SD Council (E-mail); Multiple Recipients of the List Subject: SDCOUNTIL> NAS/NRC Sustainability Report News Release Source: http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/ Date: Nov. 9, 1999 Contacts: Barbara Rice, Deputy Director Megan O'Neill, Media Relations Assistant (202) 334-2138; e-mail EMBARGOED: NOT FOR PUBLIC RELEASE BEFORE 5 P.M. EST TUESDAY, NOV. 9 Report Provides Strategy for Transition to Sustainability; Actions Required Over Next Two Generations WASHINGTON -- Even without miraculous technologies or drastic transformations of whole societies, human needs over the next two generations can be met while sustaining the Earth if the political will exists to turn new knowledge gained through science and technology into action, says a new report from the National Research Council of the National Academies. Scientific research, private actions, and public policies must be increasingly linked to promote a transition to sustainability -- in which people can meet their needs while simultaneously nurturing and restoring the environment. The report argues that societies should approach sustainable development not as a destination, but as an ongoing, adaptive learning process. To that end, the report proposes an approach for monitoring progress in the transition to sustainability and a set of institutional reforms to facilitate the needed research, innovation, and social learning. It sets forth a new research agenda for sustainability science. "A transition is under way to a world in which human populations are more crowded, more consuming, more connected, and in many parts more diverse than at any time in history," says Robert W. Kates, co-chair of the study, and professor emeritus, Brown University, Providence, R.I. "Meeting the most basic needs of these populations implies greater production and consumption of goods and services, increased demand for land, energy, and materials, and intensified pressures on the environment and living resources." "Actions to accelerate progress in a transition toward sustainability over the next 50 years must be undertaken now to avoid significant damage to the Earth's human population and its life-support systems," says William C. Clark, co-chair of the study, and professor, Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass. "This transition must involve harnessing science and technology to provide direction, examine alternative pathways, measure success -- or the lack of it -- along the way, and produce information and incentives for changing course." Most population growth will be concentrated in the developing countries of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, where efforts to reduce poverty without harming the environment must go hand in hand, the report says. Pressures on the environment and on natural resources will continue to be compounded by the heavy consumption of resources that support lifestyles in industrialized nations and are sought after by others. The report documents large-scale social and environmental change and explores tools for "what if" analysis of possible future developments and their implications for sustainability. It also identifies the greatest threats sustainability and outlines several priorities for action in five key area aimed at using what is already known to achieve a successful transition to sustainability. Priorities for action include: Population. Achieving a 10 percent reduction in the population of 9 million now projected for 2050 is a desirable and attainable goal, the report says. Having nearly 1 billion fewer people on the planet would ease the transition toward sustainability. This can be done by meeting the widespread need for contraceptives globally, by helping women to postpone childbearing through education and job opportunities and to reduce family size overall, and by encouraging society to increase the care and education of smaller numbers of children. Urban systems. It should be possible to accommodate the projected massive growth of urban areas in a habitable, efficient, and environmentally friendly manner. Cities are faced with meeting the needs for housing, nurturing, educating, and employing the 4 billion more people expected to be living in urban areas by 2050, while providing them with adequate water, sanitation, and clean air. These cities should be able to meet human needs and preserve the environment by building modern facilities and developing systems for delivering services more efficiently. Agricultural production. An achievable goal is to reverse declining trends in agricultural production in Africa while sustaining historic trends elsewhere. The most critical near-term step is to reverse the decline in sub-Saharan Africa, the only region where population growth has outpaced growth in agricultural production. A collaborative effort involving governments, the scientific community, farmers, and nongovernment organizations will be needed in Africa. At the same time, meeting the challenge of feeding the burgeoning world population as a whole and reducing hunger while sustaining life-support systems will require dramatic overall advances in food production, distribution, and access over the next two generations. Sustainable increases in output per hectare of two to three times present levels will be required by 2050. Productivity must be increased on farmlands, reduced on fragile land areas, and restored todegraded terrain. Energy and materials. Efficiency in energy and materials use, including reductions in the amount of carbon produced by unit of energy and the amount of energy used per unit of product, should be accelerated to at least double the current rate of improvement. Research and development should continue on the many efforts under way to lower household energy use, build low-polluting and energy-efficient automobiles, and reduce waste, as well as to minimize the consumption of energy and materials for industrial processes through reuse, recycling, and the substitution of services for products. Living resources. Many ecosystems are being degraded by the demands and stresses of human use. The goal should be to work toward restoring and maintaining their function and integrity so that their services and human uses can be sustained over the long term. Greater understanding is needed of how biological systems work, how to stem the continued loss of habitats, and how ecosystems can be restored and managed at the local or regional scale. This will require knowledge of the socioeconomic aspects of over exploitation, the appropriate valuation of ecosystem services, and sustainable management and harvesting techniques. Ecosystems still not degraded by human activities represent the last reserves of the Earth's biodiversity. For these systems the goal should be to protect and conserve biological diversity, both by dramatically reducing current rates of land conversion and by planning for conservation. Achievements in one of the areas outlined above, however, do not imply improvements in other or all sectors, the report cautions. For example, efforts to preserve natural ecosystems for the goods and services they provide to humans may ultimately fail if they do not account for the longer-term changes likely to be introduced by atmospheric pollution, climate change, water shortages, or human population encroachment. Understanding interactions among human activities and their multiple environmental consequences requires complementing current research programs with a new research agenda for sustainability science. The report proposes such an agenda, emphasizing integrated approaches to research and actions at the regional scale related to water, atmosphere and climate, and species and ecosystems. It stresses the need to develop both a thorough understanding of the most critical interactions at particular places where people live, work, and govern, and an integrated strategy for planning and management. This will require evaluation of ongoing experiments in integrative research, a more focused effort on such research at all levels and dimensions, and new frameworks for improving collaborations among partners in industry, academia, foundations, and other national and international organizations. The complexity of the earth system and society's interactions with it guarantee that surprises will emerge and policies will not work out entirely as planned. Central to a sober strategy for a transition to sustainability is therefore knowledge about how the system is performing, and what the effects of management efforts have actually been. The report also discusses what indicators of change -- from children's birthweights to atmospheric chemistry -- will be most needed in navigating a transition to sustainability. There is no precedent for the ambitious enterprise of mobilizing science and technology to ensure a transition to sustainability, the report says. This effort is inherently international, requiring enhanced cooperation of scientific and political communities around the world. The United States, having robust scientific and technological capacities as well as being a major consumer of global resources, is particularly obligated to join, and help guide, the journey. The study was funded by grants from Mitchell Energy and Development Corp., the George and Cynthia Mitchell Foundation, and the National Academy of Sciences. The National Research Council is the principal operating arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering. It is a private, nonprofit organization that provides advice on science and technology under a congressional charter. Copies of Our Common Journey: A Transition Toward Sustainability are available from the National Academy Press at the mailing address in the letterhead; tel. (202) 334-3313 or 1-800-624-6242. The cost of the report is $49.95 (prepaid) plus shipping charges of $4.50 for the first copy and $.95 for each additional copy. Reporters may obtain a copy from the Office of News and Public Information at the letterhead address (contacts listed above). NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL Policy Division Board on Sustainable Development Edward A. Frieman1 (board chair) Research Director Emeritus Scripps Institution of Oceanography La Jolla, Calif. William C. Clark (study co-chair) Harvey Brooks Professor of International Science, Public Policy, and Human Development John F. Kennedy School of Government Harvard University Cambridge, Mass. Robert W. Kates1 (study co-chair) Emeritus Director of the Feinstein World Hunger Program Brown University Trenton, Maine Lourdes Arizpe Researcher Regional Center for Multidisciplinary Research Mexico John Bongaarts Vice President The Population Council New York City Ralph J. Cicerone1 Chancellor, and Daniel G. Aldrich Jr. Professor Earth System Science Department University of California Irvine Robert A. Frosch2 Senior Research Fellow Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs John F. Kennedy School of Government Harvard University Cambridge, Mass. Malcolm Gillis President Rice University Houston Richard H. Harwood C.S. Mott Foundation Chair of Sustainable Agriculture Department of Crop and Soil Sciences Michigan State University East Lansing Philip J. Landrigan3 Ethel H. Wise Professor; Chair of Community Medicine; and Director of Environmental and Occupational Medicine Mount Sinai School of Medicine New York City Kai N. Lee John J. Gibson Professor of Environmental Studies Williams College Williamstown, Mass. Jerry D. Mahlman Director, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Princeton, N.J. Richard J. Mahoney Distinguished Executive in Residence Center for the Study of American Business Washington University St. Louis Pamela A. Matson1 Professor Department of Geological and Environmental Sciences Stanford University Stanford, Calif. William J. Merrell President H. John Heinz III Center for Science, Economics, and the Environment Washington, D.C. G. William Miller Chairman G. William Miller & Co. Inc. Washington, D.C. Berrien Moore III (ex officio) Director, Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans, and Space University of New Hampshire Durham M. Granger Morgan Professor and Head Department of Engineering and Public Policy Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh Paul D. Raskin President Tellus Institute, and Director Stockholm Environment Institute Boston John B. Robinson Director, Sustainable Development Research Institute, and Professor, Department of Geography University of British Columbia Vancouver, Canada Vernon H. Ruttan Regents Professor Department of Applied Economics University of Minnesota St. Paul Thomas C. Schelling1 Professor of Economics and Public Affairs University of Maryland College Park Marvalee H. Wake Professor and Chair Department of Integrative Biology University of California Berkeley Warren Washington Senior Scientist Climate and Global Dynamics Division National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder, Colo. M. Gordon Wolman1 Professor Department of Geography and Environmental Engineering Johns Hopkins University Baltimore RESEARCH COUNCIL STAFF Sherburne B. Abbott Study Director 1 Member, National Academy of Sciences 2 Member, National Academy of Engineering 3 Member, Institute of Medicine To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 16:02:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14299 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28942 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:57:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28782 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:49:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "Dr. Fred Magdoff (E-mail)" Subject: GMO in today's wall street journal (11/19) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:49:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 408 Forwarding.. Subject: today's interactive version of the wall street journal November 19, 1999 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Midwest Farmers Lose Faith They Had in Biotech Crops By SCOTT KILMAN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL COLERIDGE, Neb. -- As farmers this month place their orders for spring planting, there is growing evidence that a boom is fading. Next year looks as if it will bring the first decline in sales of genetically altered seeds after three years of heady growth. Many farmers remain fans of the seeds and don't share consumers' anxiety over the safety of genetically modified crops. But they can't afford to ignore those concerns. "Even when the customer is wrong, the customer is right," says Boyd Ebberson. For three years, he has sown his mammoth farm with genetically modified seed. Next year, he says, "I'm changing back." Holding Their Ground Mr. Ebberson's decision is distressing news for the biotechnology industry, which has invested tens of billions of dollars in developing genetically modified crops. This technology makes crops so much easier to grow that farmers -- typically a cautious bunch -- embraced it with gusto, happily paying a 25% premium for genetically modified seed. Sales of the seed, first available in 1996, had jumped to $1 billion by last spring. Some biotechnology executives foresaw a leap next spring to $2 billion. FDA May Change Oversight of Genetically Modified Crops DuPont Praises Biotechnology (Sept. 23) Gerber, Heinz Shun Gene-Altered Foods (July 30) None do now. "We'll be happy if we can hold our ground," says Edward T. Shonsey, president of the U.S. seeds unit of European biotech and pharmaceutical giant Novartis AG. That sounds optimistic to Robert K. Wichmann, a top executive at DuPont Co.'s Pioneer Hi-Bred International Inc. unit, who predicts "some slippage" in sales. Pioneer is the country's biggest seed company. The reversal is turning a routine autumn farm task -- placing seed orders -- into a kind of political campaign. In recent weeks, Mr. Shonsey, the Novartis executive, has ridden in dozens of combines to try to persuade farmers to keep ordering genetically modified seed. He told his staff to lobby growers as well. Monsanto Co., which produces genetically modified seeds for corn, soybeans and cotton, also has its executives barnstorming the Midwest. Other crops that have been genetically modified include: potatoes, tomatoes, squash, canola and sugar beets. In radio advertisements, town meetings and combine-cab confabs with individual farmers, these executives are struggling to shore up sales of the new seed. After steady price increases, they are promising to freeze prices on next year's batch of seeds. They are also promising to help farmers find buyers for genetically modified crops. But that offer only underscores the question that most troubles farmers: At harvest time next year, will a strong market exist for genetically modified crops? The problem is that U.S. public opinion is up for grabs. As yet, most Americans aren't aware, let alone concerned, that countless items on their grocery shelves contain genetically modified ingredients, from the sweetener in their soda to the cornflakes in their cereal bowl. But when asked in polls, American consumers say they want to know whether their groceries contain bioengineered material. This month, a bipartisan bill was introduced in Congress that would require labels identifying whether fresh produce or any ingredient in packaged foods was grown from genetically modified, or GM, seed. The bill's introduction drew protests from government food and health agencies, and its passage faces further hurdles from food-industry lobbies. Industry executives fear that a labeling law could initiate in America a backlash to bioengineered food similar to what Europe has seen in recent years. In addition, Thursday the Food and Drug Administration signaled it is considering changes in its oversight of GM crops. In Europe, consumer opposition is so intense that "GM-Free" has become an effective marketing slogan. Almost certainly, food companies in the U.S. would rather remove any genetically modified ingredients than carry a label announcing the presence of such ingredients. Indeed, many U.S. food companies are scrambling to find nonmodified ingredients for the products they export to Europe. All this is clearly weighing on the Farm Belt. This past growing season, more than half the cropland in Nebraska was sprouting genetically modified crops. But a survey released in late August by the University of Nebraska's Center for Rural Community Revitalization and Development found that among rural Nebraskans, a group closely tied to agriculture, only 36% favored using genetically modified seeds. "The results were a shock, considering how quickly Nebraska has adopted the technology," says John Allen, director of the center. "Farmers feel like they're caught in the middle." That's the case across the Midwest, home of the vast majority of the world's land planted to genetically modified crops. In just four years, nearly 70 million acres of Midwestern cropland-an area equal to all the farmland in Iowa and Illinois-were switched to genetically modified crops. 'A Big Rollback' But now, based on early orders so far, some local seed dealers expect sales of their bioengineered varieties to drop 20% or more. The retreat is so big that seed executives are worried about a possible shortage of conventional, unmodified seed. "The handwriting is on the wall," says Leon Corzine, an Assumption, Ill., farmer and seed dealer. "We see a big rollback next spring." DuPont hopes to stem this reversal. Executive Vice President Charles S. Johnson recently flew the company Learjet to the Nebraska town of Wayne to hold a town-hall-style meeting with farmers. DuPont has invested heavily in genetically modified seeds -- including the $7.7 billion acquisition in October of the 80% of Pioneer it didn't already own -- so Mr. Johnson is one of several ambassadors being sent to the Farm Belt this month. A handful of farmers accepted Mr. Johnson's invitation to a catered lunch on the campus of Wayne State College. In theory, these farmers are huge fans of biotechnology. Before its arrival, a corn-killing caterpillar was wreaking such havoc that farmers had to hire crop-dusters to cover their land with insecticides so powerful they couldn't enter their fields for days afterward. All sorts of beneficial insects died, too, such as ladybugs and honeybees. But the transplantation into corn seed of a gene from a common soil micro-organism called Bacillus thuringiensis solved the problem, killing the caterpillar without harming other species. The genetically modified corn, called Bt corn, resulted in a 20% decline in local insecticide sales. Without all those chemicals, farmers felt they were delivering a healthier crop. "Personally, I'd rather eat a bowl of cornflakes made from Bt corn than from regular corn," says Rick Gruber, 40, a corn farmer near Benedict, Neb. An Awkward Moment Still, the farmers who have gathered to hear Mr. Johnson hardly give him a hero's welcome. It doesn't help that public speaking isn't easy for Mr. Johnson, a quiet 61-year-old who concedes that his flat delivery is more John Wayne than Jesse Jackson. He brings little punch to lines like: "We can't just throw this technology away. This is what can feed the world's growing population." An awkward moment arises when Mr. Ebberson, the Coleridge farmer, speaks. Last spring, he spent nearly $160,000 on genetically modified seed, and it worked as advertised. He didn't have to spray nearly as much insecticide, and he allows his 17-year-old son to snack on genetically engineered soybeans picked right from the field. "If anything, biotechnology is safer than what we'd been doing to crops," Mr. Ebberson says. But who can say what the market will be like for his crops next year? And here's another inducement to switch: A grain elevator near Mr. Ebberson's farm is offering a premium of 10 cents a bushel for nonbioengineered corn. The corn is for a Japanese brewer that doesn't want any genetically modified organisms in its beer. "I've got to think about what the customer wants right now," Mr. Ebberson tells the group. When Mr. Ebberson announces his decision-next spring he's taking his 6,000-acre farm back to non-modified crops -- DuPont's Mr. Johnson is speechless. In a Nebraska farm town, the market speaks through the town's grain elevator, and the message these days seems loud and clear to Harold Hummel, general manager of the farmer-owned elevators around Waverly. The companies those elevators sell to, such as the Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. soybean-crushing plant just down the road, are starting to ask Mr. Hummel to supply conventional crops. To do that, he has to persuade farmers to keep their genetically modified crops separate from their conventional crops. The only way farmers could do that would be to build new storage bins and clean their combines between fields, a logistical nightmare that could negate the advantages of genetically modified crops. "We're stuck in the middle between the farmers who own the elevator and the markets we serve," says Mr. Hummel. "It is a predicament." Mr. Hummel himself isn't equipped to store two different kinds of corn. His main storage complex is outfitted with only one pit for corn. But for next year, he is thinking about using an elevator in a neighboring town for handling only nongenetically modified crops. Then, Mr. Hummel -- who this year paid the same price for bioengineered and conventional crops -- would pay a premium for unmodified grain. "The market is trying to tell us something," he says. "Farmers don't like it, but I think biotech is losing momentum." Standing Firm Some farmers are standing firm. A bioengineered soybean enabled Jim Miller, 41, to eliminate a big problem with soil erosion. The soybean is genetically rigged to survive a dousing by Monsanto's Roundup weedkiller, which is designed to kill everything green. The change makes it so easy for Mr. Miller to chemically weed his fields that he no longer needs to mechanically disturb the soil, which left it vulnerable to erosion from the wind and rain. So Mr. Miller isn't switching back. In fact, he believes the best is yet to come. He has compiled a collection of articles predicting that someday genetically modified crops will become a new source of expensive drugs. "I got a lot of hopes riding on biotechnology," says Mr. Miller. "I want to get away from growing cheap corn. I want to grow something that the pharmaceutical companies will pay a lot for." But does that possibility still exist? Mr. Miller worries that widespread defections from genetically modified crops will bring the revolution to a halt before it can fulfill its proponents' dreams and his own. "Everybody around here likes biotech," says Mr. Miller, who runs an 1,700-acre farm near Belden, Neb. "But not a lot of guys are willing to take a bullet for biotech." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 17:13:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15487 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19234 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19177 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:37:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "Dr. Fred Magdoff (E-mail)" Subject: Seeking non-traditional soil labs Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:37:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 409 Sanet: Compiling resources for SAN's next book: "Building Soils for Better Crops", Dr. Fred Magdoff seeks contact information for 'non-traditional' soil labs--those that will run analyses on soil microbial activity or other soil quality indicators not usually offered by university or commercial soil test labs. He is aware of Woods End Lab in Maine and the Soil FoodWeb Inc. Lab in Oregon. Also, Fred would like to know if you have seen some resource (book, video, brochure, etc.) on ecological soil management that was of particular use. Please send contact information for these labs or resource materials to Fred Magdoff (fmagdoff@zoo.uvm.edu), who misses sanet-mg while he finishes the book (due out by February, 2000). To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 19:20:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17288 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA23489 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23418 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:40:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12975 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23434 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23430 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:37:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:37:36 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: structural changes in soy stems associated with glyphosate resistance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 410 Hello to all, I just finished reading a New Scientist article (which can be accessed at http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991120/newsstory4.html) which presents that "the bacterial enzyme that imparts resistance to glyphosate (in soybeans) affects a major metabolic pathway in the plant has the side effect of sending lignin production "into overdrive". The article suggests that as a result of elevated lignin content or possibly other unintentional structural changes, glyphosate resistant soybean plants are more brittle and prone to structural damage when subjected to heat stress than non resistant beans. BTW the article mentions that the problem is most extreme when soil temps reach 40 and 50 C... It is hard for me to imagine that soil temps could get anywhere close to this hot under a transpiring soybean canopy... or that any plant (GM or non GM) could function at such temperatures. Does anyone have any comments on this ? Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 19 20:46:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18287 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA13196 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:02:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13110 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.251 (mx3-108.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.251]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28226; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:59:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3835F5F9.6961@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:15:50 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Marketing Tune-up. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 411 Hello There, Since we opened in September, smallfarms.com, the marketing web site that features the best in small farm and ranch foods has had its first tune-up. HOGS AND CATTLE have been added to our list of products. This was a major omission on my part and I apologize to the farmers who raise livestock. Talk with Jay and Bill Engle who grow hogs on the ground in Missouri about how they may ship directly to you. FARMERS AND RANCHERS WILL BE ABLE TO SEE A DRAFT COPY of their new farm listings before submitting a final copy to us. This feature allows farmers to enter a description of their products and how the products are sold exactly AS THE FARMER WANTS IT. It’s our version of a farmer’s computer game! FOR COMPUTER JUNKIES and usability freaks, Rob the web master, has introduced a new mode of searching the contents of smallfarms.com. I understand that the new search feature will allow for more EFFECTIVE SEARCHES OF SMALL FARM PRODUCTS. He tells me that it will be especially useful in the future AS THE SITE GROWS. CANADIAN FARMERS AND CONSUMERS have made very persuasive requests for inclusion in our organic, conventional, Bd, family, small farmer marketing venture. We are pleased to announce a CANADIAN SECTION on the products page of smallfarms.com. A special welcome to grape grower Laura Sabourin at Feast of Fields Organic Vineyard & Farm, Ontario. SHOPPERS AND FARMERS are being directed to smallfarms.com by the tens of thousands thanks to LINKS, ARTICLES, AND ANNOUNCEMENTS about us from folks like the Institute for Agriculture & Trade Policy who are protecting our good small farmer name (http://www.iatp.org/), and THE SUSTAINABLE FARMING CONNECTION (http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/), among the finest sustainable agriculture web sites on the internet. Both are dynamic in the sense of timeliness and should be visited often. FREE SMALL FARM AND RANCH LISTING are still available in most states. See our home page for details! Finally, in behalf of small farmers and ranchers, I want to thank THE NON PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS, PRIVATE WEB SITES AND THEIR OWNERS for linking to smallfarms.com. I appreciate your understanding our desire to keep A TIGHT FOCUS ON SMALL FARMERS MARKETING their products without the distraction of cookies, outside links, and advertising. You know who you are and I am truly grateful for your SENSE OF COMMUNITY and unselfishness. Without you, this small farmer driven upstart web site would not have the benefit of TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HITS A MONTH. Thanks. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 00:03:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19900 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA12112 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:23:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12013 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:23:22 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.70]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:21:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991119220709.007cd4f0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:07:09 -0600 To: Subject: Radiation Resistant Bacteria From "Sterilized" Meat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 412 Below is part of the post at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/nov99/1999L-11-19-09.html This is amazing and a tribute to the adapability of bacteria. 1,500,000 rads of gamma radiation can't kill this stuff. Sure hope it never shares plasmid dna for this trait with E coli and other types of bacteria found in the meat before the radiation treatment. Mike Miller RADIATION RESISTANT BACTERIA COULD ADVANCE MEDICINE, WASTE CLEANUPS ROCKVILLE, Maryland, November 19, 1999 (ENS) - The complete genetic code of the world’s most radiation resistant organism - the bacteria Deinococcus radiodurans - has been detailed by Department of Energy (DOE) funded researchers at The Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR). This strain of pink bacteria can survive 1.5 million rads of gamma irradiation - 3,000 times the amount that would kill a human. That dose of radiation shreds the bacteria’s genome into hundreds of pieces. The organism’s ability to repair this DNA damage in a day and go on living offers researchers clues to the mechanisms of cellular repair. Advances in this area could improve the understanding of cancer, which can be caused by unrepaired DNA damage. Genetically engineering the microbe could lead to improved ways to clean up pollution and to new industrial processes. "This is a significant accomplishment," Energy Secretary Bill Richardson said. "Besides the insights into the way cells work, this new research may help provide a new safe and inexpensive tool for some of the nation’s most difficult cleanup challenges." D. radiodurans was first isolated in 1956 from samples of canned meat thought to be sterilized by gamma radiation. "We anticipate a terrific boost for industrial and environmental microbiology," said TIGR president Claire Fraser. "D. radiodurans is readily manipulated in the lab, so new functions can be introduced into its genome. We foresee its use for novel industrial processes that most bacteria cannot survive." The research is published in the November 19 issue of the journal "Science," a publication of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 06:08:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21836 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 06:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA29403 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 05:44:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA29395 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 05:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Rudzub (cust16.nrvcis1.cha2.netrover.com [205.209.31.16]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA09145 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 05:42:09 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: rudzub@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: Message-ID: <000401bf3344$38ccc5c0$101fd1cd@Rudzub> From: "Rudolf Zubler" To: Subject: Re: native people Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:22:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF32ED.599F18E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 413 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF32ED.599F18E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, regarding the "pilgrims" etc. : remember what this guy there in = Nazareth born +/- 1999 yrs ago said about those who sit in the front = rows of the church ? He was a native, he told it like it is, and got squished for it. Ever wondered what our society would do to a guy like that today ? Who = would go to the UN peace conference and tell'em " go home you hypocrits = and shut down the weapon factories" ? Who is native and who is not is a question that will have to be resolved = in the next century, because the picture is getting blurred. Take me: = I'm a Swiss native; 200 years ago, that canton of mine was not yet = Swiss, it was German. That is, Germany as we know it didn't even exist = at the time either. So who am I ? Maybe I can find a paper some day = saying that my ancestor soandso got expelled from his farm by = soandsuch, whose descendants live there now; can I go to them and tell = them to give me my ancestor's farm back ? There is a point where you = just have to get over it, that is: forgive - to liberate yourself and = others from the burden of the past -=20 but not forget - to liberate yourself and others from the burden of = repeating the same mistakes. There is a time (every night) to cry in your pillow over the stupidity = of man, and there is a time (every day) to stand up and prove it = doesn't have to be that way. I hope I don't offend any native person here by saying this, but when we = want to see reality, not just look at it, it means ALL of it. But make = no mistake about it: every country has a genocide in its history, and = the USA did it to the Indians (to use that misnomer).=20 And I can't help but to remind us that next year we will "celebrate" the = 50th anniversary of the beginning of the Chinese genocide in Tibet. Hey = Zipperbilly, why don't you drop a few bombs over Peking ? And to those who would hold that the "white man" must in some way be = superior since he came to dominate: just because you're big doesn't mean = you're smart, just because you're a majority doesn't mean you're right = (the dilemma of democracy). Smallpox and vanity, that's the reason. Vanity is the name of the Devil. And that is what distinguishes the Native from the Conqueror: the Native = knows he was made for the Earth, the Conqueror thinks it was all made = for him. =20 In the old days the conquerors were kings, queens, popes and the like, = today it is the multinational corporations (not all, but most) who are = the "new colonialists", the bloodsuckers of our sacred planet. =20 Sic dixim Rudy ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF32ED.599F18E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hello,
regarding the "pilgrims" = etc. :=20 remember  what this guy there in Nazareth born +/- 1999 yrs ago = said about=20 those who sit in the front rows of the church ?
He was a native, he told it like it = is, and got=20 squished for it.
Ever wondered what our society would = do to a guy=20 like  that today  ? Who would go to the UN peace conference = and=20 tell'em " go home you hypocrits and shut down the weapon = factories"=20 ?
Who is native and who is not is a = question that=20 will have to be resolved in the next century, because the picture is = getting=20 blurred. Take me: I'm a Swiss native;  200 years ago, that canton = of mine=20 was not yet Swiss, it was German. That is, Germany as we know it didn't = even=20 exist at the time either. So who am I ? Maybe I can find a paper some = day saying=20 that my ancestor  soandso got expelled from his farm by soandsuch, = whose=20 descendants live there now; can I go to them and tell them to give me my = ancestor's farm back ? There is a point where you just have to get over = it, that=20 is: forgive - to liberate yourself and others from the burden of the = past =20 -
but not forget - to liberate = yourself and others=20 from the burden of repeating the same mistakes.
There is a = time (every=20 night) to cry in your pillow over the stupidity of man, and there = is  a=20 time (every day) to stand up and prove it doesn't have to  be that=20 way.
I hope I don't offend any native = person here by=20 saying this, but when we want to see reality,  not just look at it, = it=20 means ALL of it. But make no mistake about it: every country has a = genocide=20 in  its history, and the USA did it to the Indians (to use that = misnomer).=20
And I can't help but to remind us that next year we = will=20 "celebrate" the 50th  anniversary of the beginning of the = Chinese=20 genocide in Tibet. Hey Zipperbilly, why don't you drop a few bombs over = Peking=20 ?
And to those who would hold that the = "white=20 man" must in some way be superior since he came to dominate: just = because=20 you're big doesn't mean you're smart, just because you're a majority = doesn't=20 mean you're right (the dilemma of  democracy).
Smallpox and = vanity, that's=20 the reason. Vanity is the name of the Devil.
And that is what distinguishes the Native from the = Conqueror:=20 the Native knows he was made for the Earth, the Conqueror thinks it was = all made=20 for him. 
In the old days  the conquerors were kings, = queens, popes=20 and the like, today it is the multinational corporations (not all, but = most) who=20 are the "new colonialists", the  bloodsuckers of our = sacred=20 planet.
 
Sic dixim
Rudy
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF32ED.599F18E0-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Nov 20 03:32:34 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA21358 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 03:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA14878 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 03:01:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14785 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 03:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id PAA24039; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 15:50:15 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA32429; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:25:46 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911200825.QAA32429@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 20 Nov 99 14:27:39 Subject: Re: Re[4]: corporations part of nature? To: dmhinds@acnet.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 414 >Yes, that is often true. And we as people have to keep the >corporations human from within, or make them human from without - >and if necessary, pierce the corporate veil to castigate the >perpetrators of any inhumanity emanating from that source. Still looking at the corporation as a legal person separate from stockholders, board of directors or managers: Today, it appears that corporations have been more successful in domesticating human beings than people keeping corporations human. >(The case of Pinochet is an example. An army is a corporation, but so >are the courts. The Berlin Wall is another case in point). >What you are describing is no more than corruption I am describing much more than that. I am describing the corporation AS IF it were a different species, created by us but escaped into the wilds, with its own genetic programming (=search for profit), having acquired better short-term adaptation skills than humans, higher up on the food chain than us, and able to domesticate humans for their own purposes. They are basically taking over the world (e.g., WTO, MAI, globalization) and transforming it in their own image. And they are not part of nature... Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 10:13:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24132 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12290 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12229 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22599; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15697; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:33:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:33:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Rudolf Zubler cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: native people In-Reply-To: <000401bf3344$38ccc5c0$101fd1cd@Rudzub> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 415 > Who is native and who is not is a question that will have to be > resolved in the next century, because the picture is getting blurred. > Take me: I'm a Swiss native; 200 years ago, that canton of mine was > not yet Swiss, it was German. That is, Germany as we know it didn't > even exist at the time either. So who am I ? Maybe I can find a paper > some day saying that my ancestor soandso got expelled from his farm by > soandsuch, whose descendants live there now; can I go to them and tell > them to give me my ancestor's farm back ? There is a point where you > just have to get over it, that is: forgive - to liberate yourself and > others from the burden of the past - but not forget - to liberate > yourself and others from the burden of repeating the same mistakes. > There is a time (every night) to cry in your pillow over the stupidity > of man, and there is a time (every day) to stand up and prove it > doesn't have to be that way. I hope I don't offend any native person > here by saying this, but when we want to see reality, not just look at > Chinese genocide in Tibet. Hey Zipperbilly, why don't you drop a few > bombs over Peking ? And to those who would hold that the "white man" They helped get him elected, in gratitude he gave them nukes to drop on _us_. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 10:40:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24291 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00154 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:05:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00074 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11pC1m-0007Cr-00; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:02:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3836BCDE.A2805617@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:23:10 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Brooks Gruver CC: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Re: structural changes in soy stems associated with glyphosate resistance References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 416 >From what I understood from the article, the non-manipulated plants of the same variety showed no problems in the same temperature. What I find very strange is that a 20% in the ligninlevel has gone unnoticed during the development of the RRsoy. If it really was not noticed than I would ask what other changes may have occured and have not been noticed? If it was noticed than Monsanto has not given all data on the RR soy. In both cases, this finding blows the "substantial equivalence" story. wytze Joel Brooks Gruver wrote: > Hello to all, > I just finished reading a New Scientist article (which can be accessed > at http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991120/newsstory4.html) > which presents that "the bacterial enzyme that imparts resistance to > glyphosate (in soybeans) affects a major metabolic pathway in the plant > has the side effect of sending lignin production "into overdrive". > The article suggests that as a result of elevated lignin content or > possibly other unintentional structural changes, glyphosate resistant > soybean plants are more brittle and prone to structural damage when > subjected to heat stress than non resistant beans. > > BTW the article mentions that the problem is most extreme when soil temps > reach 40 and 50 C... It is hard for me to imagine that soil temps could > get anywhere close to this hot under a transpiring soybean canopy... > or that any plant (GM or non GM) could function at such temperatures. > > Does anyone have any comments on > this ? > > Joel Gruver > Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment > Tufts University > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 13:16:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25405 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06579 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:47:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06471 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:47:25 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.70]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 11:45:13 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991120113110.0083ad10@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 11:31:10 -0600 To: Subject: Tofu making byproducts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 >>> Chinese genocide in Tibet. Hey Zipperbilly, why don't you drop a few >>> bombs over Peking ? And to those who would hold that the "white man" >> >>They helped get him elected, in gratitude he gave them nukes to drop on >>_us_. This thread sure has drifted far from its origin as a caution about releasing potentially invasive plants into your local environment. And now, for Something Completely Different I made my first batches of tofu today with the organic soybeans grown here in the garden on the farm using the instructions from http://syracuse.foodnotbombs.ca/T-rec.htm and epsom's salts as the curding agent. Being an engineer by training and having worked in process/chemical etc. engineering, I want to close the materials loop as much as possible. (By the way, organic tofu is only sporatically available at the local grocery, hence the need for this quest and who knows maybe a local business opportunity :>) Several questions come to mind: Could I flake and then cold press some soy oil form these beans before making tofu? And possibly save the grinding step as a side benefit? Can the cooked soybean cake left over after removing the soy milk be used as a reduced protein animal feed? Is there any food value or other use for the soy milk whey left after filtering out the soy protein solids? Thanks for any info/advise you all may have in this area. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 18:24:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27871 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 18:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03122 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 17:52:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hobart.southcom.com.au (root@hobart.southcom.com.au [203.60.16.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02964 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 17:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 203.60.23.195 (pAc2.hbt.southcom.com.au [203.60.23.195]) by hobart.southcom.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03006; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:50:10 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3837BFD2.2F1D@southcom.com.au> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:48:02 +0000 From: John Maddock Reply-To: agtronixjv@southcom.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1445 References: <199911192310.SAA04532@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id RAA03031 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 418 20/11/99 The growing of GM crops has finally become an issue in Tasmania, the island state of Australia. The Minister for Primary Industry, Water and the Environment, David LLewellyn admitted to Parliament last week that he did not know that research farms run by the DPIWE was growing GM crops under contact to AgrEvo and Monsanto, some of them in close proximity to organic food trials. The whistle was blown by the lone Green member of Parliament, Peg Putt after she was briefed by Department officers in a briefing approved by the Minister. Mr. LLewellyn has since ordered cancellation of the trials on government farms but similar trials of GM canola, potatoes, Indian Mustard and opium poppies (Tasmania is a major world producer of legal opium poppies for pharmaceuticals) are continuing. The GM companies are vigourously defending their position claiming that there are no laws banning their activities. Deputy Chairman of the Tasmanian Food Council (an advisory body to government made up of food industry representatives) Peter Shelley has been quoted as describing as urgent the need to sort out the position on GM food. Tasmania has been cultivating an image of a food producer which is ³clean and green² but Mr. shelley says this cannot be backed up with fact. He suggests Tasmania should instead be promoting a ³clean and natural² image because this can can be backed by formal quality assurance programs. Other industry people are claiming that Tasmania can not afford to miss out on the benefits of GM food production such as reduced use of herbicides. The debate continues, surrounded by community apathy. John Maddock agtronixjv@southcom.com.au To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 20 22:38:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29180 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28779 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:04:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28755 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.54] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 21:01:46 -0600 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 20:59:51 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7874.991120@acnet.net> To: Roberto Verzola CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[6]: corporations part of nature? In-reply-To: <199911200825.QAA32429@phil.gn.apc.org> References: <199911200825.QAA32429@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 419 Hi Roberto et al, Saturday, November 20, 1999, 8:27:39 AM, you wrote: Roberto> Today, it appears that corporations have been more successful Roberto> in domesticating human beings than people keeping Roberto> corporations human. That is a human failing. Roberto> ... I am describing the corporation AS IF it were a different Roberto> species, created by us but escaped into the wilds, with its Roberto> own genetic programming (=search for profit), having acquired Roberto> better short-term adaptation skills than humans, higher up on Roberto> the food chain than us, and able to domesticate humans for Roberto> their own purposes. That's a very good metaphor, but certainly not the way *I* feel (and if you do, you have my sympathy). I don't see the corporations getting a lock on life giving forces (even if they'd *like to), because their focus is on things that can be bottled (i.e., exploited for their own use), while life is like the air you breathe: If you try to keep it, it gets stale on you fast. Roberto> They are basically taking over the world (e.g., WTO, MAI, Roberto> globalization) and transforming it in their own image. Not my world, Roberto. You really think WTO is going be able to pull it off for very long? That is the best way to relegate themselves into obsolescence. The gmo thing is a classic example: These orgs can try to bully all they want, but no one will buy the garbage. And just wait until the bill for damages comes in. The rat's will all be looking for other corporations to hide behind, and other goodies to exploit. It's comic. Roberto> And they are not part of nature... They are an abstraction of their own desires, with the same underlying needs as everyone else. (Next time you get one of those things you're talking about bearing down on you, look for the driver behind the wheel and project your message to him - he'll get the picture, if you really mean it. *I've* been doing it all my life). Lastly, your messages come in with no indication that they were posted to sanet, except in the headers that are normally hidden, and even there, there's nothing that indicates what mailer was used. Also, when I select reply to all, it comes out just to you. Is anyone else experiencing this? For me it's just with Roberto's posts. Douglas PS. You might feel better if you could check out a couple of Rambo movies, even if those explicitly catered to people who would pay to experience vicarious rebellion, thus keeping them on the job at the corporations they work for. In any case, everything's under control (& not by the WTO). So don't worry too much, just keep working in favor of your ideals and you shall see that Douglas didn't steer you wrong. (Ask Sal. In spite of all the BS he has to go through, his whatchmacallits are still intact). In short, you don't don't let anyone or thing psych you out, brainwash you etc. Use your own criteria! How else are you going to be congruent? (And without congruence, how are you going to accomplish that which needs to be accomplished)? Those are rhetorical questions. Form your own corporation, draft your own articles and follow the hell out of them. Fight fire with fire. There's good ones and bad ones, like anything else. nuff said. This was a discourse on the essence of theoretical and practical sustainability, and it's relation to slavery. If one's daddy was a slave and one's grandaddy was a slave, perhaps one can be forgiven for not knowing any better, but that doesn't mean everyone else is going to follow suit - and the truth is a very contagious commodity, not so easily exploited for false or shallow ends. Stop eating fruit from grafted trees. My downloads done and I'm going to log off. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Nov 21 03:27:42 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01413 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 03:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA15457 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 03:00:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15361 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 02:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id PAA03083; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:48:46 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA05461; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:21:49 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199911210821.QAA05461@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 21 Nov 99 15:27:16 Subject: Re: Re[6]: corporations part of nature? To: dmhinds@acnet.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 >CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >into obsolescence. The gmo thing is a classic example: These orgs can >try to bully all they want, but no one will buy the garbage. And just >wait until the bill for damages comes in. The rat's will all be >looking for other corporations to hide behind, and other goodies to >exploit. It's comic. I didn't say they've won. But they are certainly ahead... Even in the GMO issue, they're still ahead. After all, Americans (and Europeans) are still eating GMO without knowing it. And in the Philippines, the very first field-tests have just been approved. >They are an abstraction of their own desires, with the same underlying >needs as everyone else. (Next time you get one of those things you're >talking about bearing down on you, look for the driver behind the >wheel and project your message to him - he'll get the picture, if you >really mean it. *I've* been doing it all my life). That's exactly my point: you (and others) continue to make the fatal mistake of thinking that the corporate legal person is human, with the same underlying needs as everyone else. Because these monsters hide behind a human face, we give them too much of the benefit of the doubt, and we are beset by moral qualms about slaying them, because we'd be slaying our own kind. I repeat: the corporation is a legal (but not a natural) person -- distinct from its stockholders, directors or managers. It is not a HIM, but an IT. You may be thinking of talking to a person who has been domesticated by the corporation; if he gets the picture (as you said), and becomes more humane but threatens the firm's bottom line, he won't be with the corporation for long... >Lastly, your messages come in with no indication that they were posted >to sanet, except in the headers that are normally hidden, and even >there, there's nothing that indicates what mailer was used. Also, when Make sure your replies are addressed to sanet-mg, not my address, when you reply. I use a DOS-based locally-developed mailer (and of course a DOS machine). >PS. You might feel better if you could check out a couple of Rambo >movies, even if those explicitly catered to people who would pay to >experience vicarious rebellion, thus keeping them on the job at the I feel good enough, and I'm involved in enough real fights, to need Rambo movies. You say you've been doing it all your life. I'm curious: how many corporations have you stopped on their tracks? This is getting out of topic; let's continue in private. >Those are rhetorical questions. Form your own corporation, draft >your own articles and follow the hell out of them. Fight fire with >fire. There's good ones and bad ones, like anything else. And get trapped into the system, perhaps? I did form a corp. I eventually concluded it is the wrong way the go. First thing they ask you to do is give them P5,000 ($150). Then you have to open a checking account and deposit a minimum of P20,000 (at zero interest!). If the banking rules require 10% reserve deposits, this means the banking system can now lend out a maximum of P180,000 from my P20,000 deposit (180k + 20k is 200k, whose 10% is the 20k deposit), from which they will earn 20% or P36,000 every year -- higher if the reserve requirement is lower. From the very first step of joining the corporate system (by setting up a corp.), I was already helping prop it up... Every step of the way was more of the same. By the way, if you didn't get how the banking system can earn up to P36,000 EVERY year from my single P20,000 deposit, you'll have to admit they've done well blinkering you as well... Don't worry, I've not given up. Someday, we'll know how to slay a corporation whenever we need to, as our ancestors learned how to slay woolly mammoths. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 12:49:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04162 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA20895 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:21:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.31]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20808 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([128.146.210.212]) by mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19729 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:19:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38383763.C715FA80@uoguelph.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:18:11 -0600 From: "E. Ann Clark" Organization: University of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: structural changes in soy stems associated with glyphosate resistance References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 Joel: > You said: > BTW the article mentions that the problem is most extreme when soil temps > reach 40 and 50 C... It is hard for me to imagine that soil temps could > get anywhere close to this hot under a transpiring soybean canopy... > or that any plant (GM or non GM) could function at such temperatures. In the article, it notes that these temperatures were reached in the spring, presumably well before a full canopy, when solar irradiance could well be reaching predominantly into the soil. Such temperatures are not unreasonable in the uppermost layers of the soil, particularly at the lower latitudes. It is noteworthy that the article references research conducted *in response to* farmer observations, suggesting that the phenomenon was sufficiently widespread in the real world as to occasion critical comment from a large number of producers. Also noteworthy that the initial explanation - fungal infection - would have diverted attention from the GMO aspect. The article says that fungal invasion may well have been secondary, following the stem splitting which was apparently associated with the RR gene. Note further that the article references the fact that this is occurring only with the RR transgene, not transgenes for other herbicide tolerances. Important point. Ann To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 14:07:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04646 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06497 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:32:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06492 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP330.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.108]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21841; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:30:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38383A2A.40CA3A53@sprintmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:30:02 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Tofu making byproducts References: <3.0.6.32.19991120113110.0083ad10@pcsia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 422 mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > Several questions come to mind: > > Could I flake and then cold press some soy oil form these beans before > making tofu? And possibly save the grinding step as a side benefit? > > Can the cooked soybean cake left over after removing the soy milk be used > as a reduced protein animal feed? > > Is there any food value or other use for the soy milk whey left after > filtering out the soy protein solids? Mike, Congratulations on making your own tofu! Quite an accomplishment. First some facts about the curds, leftover cake (okara) and whey. Okara retains 17% of the total protein in the soybeans, so is still a good source of protein. The soymilk contains the other 83%. When curdled and pressed, about 74% stays in the curds and 9% drains out in the whey. The okara could indeed be used in animal feed. You could also combine it in dishes. Or favorite is okara pancakes (makes really light, fluffy pancakes): 1 1/4 cups whole wheat flour 1Tblsp baking powder 1tsp salt 1 1/3 cups soy milk 1/4 cup oil 2 Tblsp sorghum or honey 1/2 tsp vanilla extract 3 eggs 3/4 cup okara (lightly packed) Mix dry ingredients thoroughly. Mix wet ingredients separately. Combine. You know how to do the rest, probably. "The Book of Tofu" by Shurtleff & Aoyagi has more recipes and a whole lot of tofu lore and history. As for the whey, you can drink it as a hot tea (best when fresh), use it for washing oily things in the kitchen, for shampoo or use it in soups as stock or in baking- you can also substitute it for the soymilk in the pancakes. Or you can feed it to horses and cows. They're supposed to really like it. Bon Appetite! Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 15:23:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05230 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA26063 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:53:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26047 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991121195046.BRQS11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:50:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38384E25.DAB1BD24@home.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:55:17 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: [Fwd: Authors (and Admirers) of Out-of-Print Books] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 423 > >Reply-To: Soils-L Discussion List > >Sender: Soils-L Discussion List > >From: Frances Reed > >Subject: Authors (and Admirers) of Out-of-Print Books > >To: SOILS-L@CRCVMS.UNL.EDU > > > > Dear SOILS-L subscribers: We are a relatively new publishing > >company, dedicated to keeping in print and available for purchase book > >titles which larger publishers have lost interest in and have declared > >"out of print". We are especially interested in scientific and technical > >titles. If you are an author whose book is out of print, or if you are > >aware of an out of print book which you believe has value and should be > >returned to print, please contact us. Frances Reed > >Publisher > >The Blackburn Press 973-228-7077 973-228-7276 (fax) freed@blackburnpress.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 15:35:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05343 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04119 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:05:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04108 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP015.dialsprint.net [158.252.94.23]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00668 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:03:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3838500D.EFDC5D21@sprintmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:03:25 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Tofu making byproducts P.S. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 424 I forgot to mention that the whey contains most of the B vitamins from the soy beans. This makes it worth eating or feeding to animals. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 18:32:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06911 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23064 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:59:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23049 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from abc ([128.253.251.239]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10838; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:57:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121175503.00c335a0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: cm52@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:57:31 -0500 To: dsfs@lists.umbc.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Chris McCullum Subject: Mark Knapp's FDA Hearing Review 11/18/99 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 425 >>One person's point of view (Mark Knapp) of the recent FDA Public Hearing >>on GE foods in Chicago - see below. Recently posted to GMO-L@cornell.edu. >>Apologizes for any cross-postings. >>Dear Friends, >> > > >> > > Today was an impressive demonstration of lengths to which corrupt >> > > power will go to maintain itself. But it was also an opportunity to >> > > speak truth to the face of that power. >> > > >> > > I don't remember what is already known about the events here, so I >> > > will try to summarize everything that I experienced at the FDA public >> > > meeting in Chicago today. >> > > >> > > First of all, the entire setting of the hearing was very controlled >> > > and very intimidating. I have felt more welcome in traffic court >> > > than I felt in the Federal Building today. The FDA set up a long >> > > registration table in the large hallway outside of the meeting room. >> > > At the entrance to the room was an x-ray machine and a metal detector >> > > that were used to search everyone and their belongings. There were >> > > about eight uniformed police officers at the room entrance. Their >> > > demeanor was brusque and dominating. They only permitted registered >> > > speakers, panel members, the news media, and FDA members to enter. >> > > >> > > Setting aside the events leading up to the meeting, I saw three main >> > > areas of manipulation by the FDA. Each one maximized the chance for >> > > a favorable outcome for the biotechnology industry. >> > > >> > > 1) The composition of the panels was highly lopsided in favor of >> > > genetically engineered food. >> > > >> > > Each panel sat at a long table on the right side of a >> > > slightly-elevated stage. The FDA sat at another long table on the >> > > left side. From right to left, the FDA members were: >> > > >> > > Jane E. Henney, M.D. >> > > Commissioner of Food and Drugs >> > > >> > > Bob Lake >> > > Director, Regulations and Policy >> > > Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, FDA >> > > >> > > Sharon Smith Holston >> > > Deputy Commissioner for International and Constituent >> > > Relations, FDA >> > > >> > > Margaret Porter, Esq. >> > > Chief Counsel >> > > >> > > Stephen F. Sundlof, D.V.M., Ph.D. >> > > Director, Center for Veterinary Medicine, FDA >> > > >> > > James Maryanski, Ph.D. >> > > Biotechnology Coordinator >> > > Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, FDA >> > > >> > > The meeting started at 9:00 with Commissioner Henney speaking for 15 >> > > minutes. Lake and Maryanski took up the next HOUR with simplistic >> > > slide presentations that were insulting to the intelligence of any >> > > informed citizen. >> > > >> > > There were two discussion panels -- one in the morning and one in the >> > > afternoon. The topic of the morning panel was "Scientific, Safety, >> > > and Regulatory Issues." These were its members: >> > > >> > > Dr. Ralph Hardy >> > > President, National Agricultural Biotechnology Council >> > > Boyce Thompson Institute for Plant Research, Inc. >> > > >> > > Dr. Val Giddings >> > > Vice President for Food and Agriculture >> > > Biotechnology Industry Organization >> > > >> > > Dr. Michael Jacobson >> > > Executive Director >> > > Center for Science in the Public Interest >> > > >> > > Charles Margulis >> > > Greenpeace Genetic Engineering Campaign >> > > >> > > Dr. Steven Taylor >> > > Professor, Department of Food Science and Technology >> > > University of Nebraska >> > > >> > > Dr. Barbara P. Glenn >> > > Federation of Animal Science Societies >> > > >> > > On this panel, Charles was the only true opponent of genetically >> > > engineered food. Michael Jacobson provided some support to Charles >> > > on some safety questions. However, it was clear that Jacobson >> > > thought that biotechnology can be good. >> > > >> > > Charles was also the only one without a doctorate. In my view, this >> > > setup was a deliberate attempt by the FDA to portray the opposition >> > > as an unqualified fringe movement. >> > > >> > > Despite the odds against him, Charles did an excellent job. He spoke >> > > well, and he quickly remembered facts and figures. >> > > >> > > The topic of the afternoon panel was "Public Information and >> > > Labeling." These were its members: >> > > >> > > Dr. Marion Nestle >> > > Professor and Chair, Department of Nutrition and Food Studies >> > > New York University >> > > >> > > Dr. Michael Phillips >> > > Executive Director for Food and Agriculture >> > > Biotechnology Industry Organization >> > > >> > > Dr. Edward Groth, III >> > > Director, Technical Policy and Public Service >> > > Consumers Union >> > > >> > > Lisa D. Katic, R.D. >> > > Director, Scientific and Nutrition Policy >> > > Grocery Manufacturers of America >> > > >> > > Carl B. Loop >> > > Vice President, American Farm Bureau Federation >> > > >> > > Nestle and Groth both argued forcefully for explicit labeling. They >> > > belittled the panel members (particularly Phillips) who continually >> > > expressed the "great difficulty" of labeling that would please >> > > everyone and not "mislead" consumers. >> > > >> > > The composition of this panel was better, and the discussion was more >> > > lively than it had been in the morning. In particular, the audience >> > > became more boisterous, and they completely interrupted the speakers >> > > a few times. >> > > >> > > There was a discussion about what threshold of GE content in a food >> > > should activate a requirement for labeling. Nestle suggested 1 >> > > percent, Phillips recommended 3 percent, and Groth laid out a >> > > convincing argument for a standard based on the lowest detectable >> > > concentration -- a standard that would start around a TENTH of a >> > > percent and become increasingly lower with technological >> > > improvements. Meanwhile, the audience repeatedly shouted, "Zero!" >> > > and "None!" >> > > >> > > The afternoon discussion was most remarkable for a few revealing >> > > quotes that came from the biotechnology proponents. As if the entire >> > > atmosphere of the FDA meeting was not already Orwellian enough, Lisa >> > > Katic spoke about polling as a process to "get into the minds of >> > > consumers." Carl Loop flatly stated that our society "should not >> > > make the mistake of using the precautionary principle" for public >> > > safety. I could hardly believe my ears, but he actually said it. >> > > (See http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=3D532 and >> > > http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=3D1508 for more = >> > on the precautionary principle.) >> > > >> > > Neither panel had a biological scientist, active in the field, who >> > > opposed genetically engineered food. This omission was a key to >> > > framing the debate for the news media who attended. >> > > >> > > And speaking of the media ... >> > > >> > > 2) The timing of the meeting agenda was set up to minimize news >> > > media coverage of the public participation. >> > > >> > > When the meeting began in the morning, the room was teeming with >> > > cameras and reporters. I counted about a dozen television cameras. >> > > Throughout the morning a few cameramen roamed along the aisles taking >> > > candid shots of the audience and the stage. Of course, they couldn't >> > > see us doing much -- because we we're allowed to speak yet. Whenever >> > > one viewed me, I shook my head and did my best to look disgusted. >> > > >> > > The agenda dragged along with FDA presentations, brief recesses, two >> > > panel discussions, and an hour lunch break. Throughout the day, the >> > > ranks of the news media slowly thinned. By the time the FDA was >> > > ready to let the public to speak, it was 2:30 in the afternoon, and >> > > most of the media was long gone. >> > > >> > > The FDA clearly understood that the deadlines of evening news >> > > reporters could be used to muzzle the spread of any dissent. At the >> > > same time, the agency could still claim that the public had been >> > > allow to participate in the process. > > >Mark Knapp > >> > > >> > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 19:25:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07501 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22345 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22288 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16056 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA10631 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10627 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:42:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:42:27 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: quote from Justus von Liebig In-Reply-To: <3838500D.EFDC5D21@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 426 Hello to all... While perusing a book titled Fauna in soil ecosystems: recycling processes, nutrient fluxes and agricultural production (edited by Gero Benckiser, Marcel Dekker, 1997, ISBN 0-8247-9786-8) I encountered a very interesting quote attributed to an individual somewhat infamous in sustainable ag circles. In 1855, Justus Von Liebig wrote: "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual and animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade the farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in nature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the farmer will forget the soil and lose sight of his inheent values and their influence." The original source of this quote is Liebig von, J. (1855) Die Grundsatze der Agriculturchemie mit Rucksicht auf die in England angestellten Untersuchungen. Braunschweig. Those are some interesting words to ponder in this age of biotech promises of "universal remedies"... Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University P.S. I have the original German if anyone is interested. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 21 22:35:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09037 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA04659 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:11:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from nongae.gsnu.ac.kr (nongae.gsnu.ac.kr [203.255.1.26]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04545 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from zrchoe.gsnu.ac.kr ([203.255.21.48]) by nongae.gsnu.ac.kr (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00566; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:59:38 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <000801bf3496$da780260$3015ffcb@gsnu.ac.kr> Reply-To: "Zhin-Ryong Choe" From: "Zhin-Ryong Choe" To: "Joel Brooks Gruver" , References: Subject: Re: quote from Justus von Liebig Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:08:19 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id WAA04589 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 427 Please send me the original German of Justus von Liebig writings. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 01:58:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01395 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18418 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:44:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18414 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLL007AF6G140@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:38:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:08:24 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Re: structural changes in soy stems associated with glyphosate resistance In-reply-to: <38383763.C715FA80@uoguelph.ca> To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" References: <38383763.C715FA80@uoguelph.ca> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 428 Howdy all-- Joel was asking for some thoughts on an article in /The New Scientist/ that he saw this week: > I just finished reading a New Scientist article (which can be accessed > at http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991120/newsstory4.html) > which presents that "the bacterial enzyme that imparts resistance to > glyphosate (in soybeans) affects a major metabolic pathway in the plant > has the side effect of sending lignin production "into overdrive". > The article suggests that as a result of elevated lignin content or > possibly other unintentional structural changes, glyphosate resistant > soybean plants are more brittle and prone to structural damage when > subjected to heat stress than non resistant beans. I don't know whether this is pertinent, but I was thinking through some glyphosate/GMO/food issues in September and formulated some thoughts for someone I was corresponding with. I've appended a portion of that below, between the wiggly lines. Could this reported "overdrive" have anything to do with this: The gene sequence that carries the glyphosate resistance factor in Roundup Ready soybeans comes from the bacterium /Agrobacterium tumefaciens/, does it not? That's the bacterium that causes crown gall, a plant tumor. What is the tissue structure of a gall? Is it ligneous? As they age, they're described as "woody" or "spongy." Below are some more technical details on what I found when I went a-spading on the issue of how glyphosate works in Roundup Ready soybeans, during the late summer of this year. I would welcome corrections from anyone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Glyphosate] disrupts an important, basic metabolic pathway that is present in fungi, microorganisms, and plants: the Shikimate pathway. The Shikimate pathway is an amino acid pathway. It produces the aromatic amino acids phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan. Glyphosate disrupts this pathway, causing the stunting or death of the plant. The Shikimate pathway's chemical reaction looks like this: D-Erythrose-4-phosphate + 2 Phosphoenoylpyruvate + NAD+ + NADPH + ATP ---> Chorismate + NADH + NADP+ + ADP + 4 Pi [So let's imagine we have two different plants.] We have one plant that, if glyphosate is sprayed on it, it dies, because an essential metabolic cycle (i.e., set of chemical reactions in its cells) is disrupted by the glyphosate. And one plant that, if glyphosate is sprayed on it, doesn't die because...well, we don't really know why, because Monsanto considers that proprietary information, and the federal regulators in the US and Canada have gone along with that. That is, the corporation's scientists have tinkered with an extremely ancient cellular chemistry, common to many thousands of organism species, but apparently patent protection is more important than public knowledge of how exactly how cellular communication has been modified. (I have a separate set of concerns about this...another time.) But apparently it works something like this: one gene inserted in the GM soybean expresses an enzyme that degrades the glyphosate, while another gene provides a kind of bridging activity for the disrupted Shikimate pathway. So the plant gets its amino acids in another way. The genes that make these two mechanisms possible come from a bacterium. Is it /Agrobacterium tumefaciens/? I know that's the one used in Roundup Ready canola. /A. tumefaciens/ is what causes crown gall. Here is Ohio State's info sheet on that: http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/3000/3301.html Monsanto assures us that they have removed the transfer DNA portion of these genes that causes tumor formation or virulence, and that they have replaced them. Sounds like Monsanto believes it has mapped the genome of this entire organism, and knows exactly where all the potentially negative genes are and how they work. Which is something I wouldn't bet my own personal planet on, not because of Monsanto being what it is, but because of 4 billion years of terrestrial life being what it is. We now have two plants. One that acts like a plant that has evolved, over 4 billion years of terrestrial life, whose metabolism works in concert with that vast life history. And one that has splices and glitches in its metabolism, chunked out from a tumor-causing bacterium, and acts in a completely novel way--a way that evolution would have been hugely unlikely to have developed. (Evolution is a notoriously non-capitalistic energy flow; things rarely change on their own in support of proprietary or commercial activity, which are human values. What evolution's values are, no one knows, though there's been a lot of speculation.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thoughts, anyone? peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prometheus, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire...but I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction. --The god Zeus, in Hesiod, /Works and Days/ 55 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 03:43:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02315 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 03:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA26652 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 03:31:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA26580 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 03:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.161] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:28:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:26:11 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1101.991122@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[8]: corporations part of nature? In-reply-To: <199911210821.QAA05461@phil.gn.apc.org> References: <199911210821.QAA05461@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 429 Hi Roberto, Sunday, November 21, 1999, 9:27:16 AM, you wrote re "corporations": Roberto> I didn't say they've won. But they are certainly ahead... Roberto> Even in the GMO issue, they're still ahead. After all, Roberto> Americans (and Europeans) are still eating GMO without Roberto> knowing it. If things were perfect, there wouldn't be any reason for us to be here, would there! If "they're" still ahead, they're also going nowhere fast. Roberto> And in the Philippines, the very first field-tests have just Roberto> been approved. That's where you come in Beto! Do your thing. > >They are an abstraction of their own desires, with the same > >underlying >needs as everyone else. (Next time you get one of > >those things you're >talking about bearing down on you, look > >for the driver behind the >wheel and project your message to > >him - he'll get the picture, if you >really mean it. *I've* > >been doing it all my life). Roberto> That's exactly my point: you (and others) continue to make Roberto> the fatal mistake of thinking that the corporate legal person Roberto> is human, with the same underlying needs as everyone else. If I and others have made a fatal mistake, I guess I (we) are just condemned to whatever death that fatal error will lead to, assuming you are right (which of course, I don't). Roberto> Because these monsters hide behind a human face, we give them Roberto> too much of the benefit of the doubt, and we are beset by Roberto> moral qualms about slaying them, because we'd be slaying our Roberto> own kind. No qualms here, friend. I'd just rather control them as needed than kid myself into thinking I'm going to kill something that has no life of it's own. I consider that to be a fruitless and therefore bad use of my effort. Roberto> I repeat: the corporation is a legal (but not a Roberto> natural) person -- distinct from its stockholders, directors Roberto> or managers. It is not a HIM, but an IT. You may be thinking Roberto> of talking to a person who has been domesticated by the Roberto> corporation; if he gets the picture (as you said), and Roberto> becomes more humane but threatens the firm's bottom line, he Roberto> won't be with the corporation for long... Golly. The way I see it, corps. are not humans, just human inventions that owe their existence to humans desires (good or bad) and are subject to human laws. And that is the framework in which they may (and must) be addressed. In turn, human laws that deviate from natural law will prove counterproductive themselves and *someone* must point this out and deal with it, since they *are* unsustainable and therefore this *will* be eventually reversed. (In fact, it's often useful to do so from one's own corporate base). The facts are now coming in re gmos's that show what many were able to determine at a gut (intuitive) level - but it still has to be done. > >Lastly, your messages come in with no indication that they > >were posted >to sanet, except in the headers that are > >normally hidden, and even >there, there's nothing that > >indicates what mailer was used. Also, when Roberto> Make sure your replies are addressed to sanet-mg, not my Roberto> address, when you reply. I use a DOS-based locally-developed Roberto> mailer (and of course a DOS machine). Somehow, "replying to all" does *not* put sanet into the to: slot for your posts. But never mind. > >PS. You might feel better if you could check out a couple of Rambo > >movies, even if those explicitly catered to people who would pay to > >experience vicarious rebellion, thus keeping them on the job at the Roberto> I feel good enough, and I'm involved in enough real fights, Roberto> to need Rambo movies. You say you've been doing it all your Roberto> life. I'm curious: how many corporations have you stopped on Roberto> their tracks? This is getting out of topic; let's continue in Roberto> private. Well, I admit that my remark was a bit laconic, but: I try to deal with principles in the abstract realm and real spaces in the physical world. I feel *you* are the one infused with the idea of "stopping corporations in their tracks" and I admit to having problems taking that seriously. As for continuing, I suggest you deal with appropriate corporations as you deem necessary, and forget about telling your allies about their "fatal mistakes". This thread is now dead as far as I'm concerned. > >Those are rhetorical questions. Form your own corporation, draft > >your own articles and follow the hell out of them. Fight fire with > >fire. There's good ones and bad ones, like anything else. Roberto> And get trapped into the system, perhaps? I did form a corp. Roberto> I eventually concluded it is the wrong way the go. It may be, in your context. Roberto> First thing they ask you to do is give them P5,000 ($150). Roberto> Then you have to open a checking account and deposit a Roberto> minimum of P20,000 (at zero interest!). If the banking rules Roberto> require 10% reserve deposits, this means the banking system Roberto> ... Every step of the way was more of the same. Where I am, none of this is true. Roberto> By the way, if you didn't get how the banking system can earn Roberto> up to P36,000 EVERY year from my single P20,000 deposit, Roberto> you'll have to admit they've done well blinkering you as Roberto> well... There are other sources for financing. Banks *can come the closest I know to behaving as you've indicated, but I've managed to develop good, productive relationships with individuals within them when needed. (I neither expect nor ask much from them). Roberto> Don't worry, I've not given up. Someday, we'll know how to Roberto> slay a corporation whenever we need to, as our ancestors Roberto> learned how to slay woolly mammoths. Roberto> Roberto ÖK Roberto. Slay, hobble, defang, tame, convert, disable - whatever's needed. And THAT must often be done at a "corporate" level itself, although the human element is never-the-less always present, and I consider what you have discussed to be a human failing that requires *someone* human enough to be able to to introduce the human element back into the picture; without which, none of it (the corporate structure and it's milieu) makes any sense. And I'm happy to say I *have* had good luck doing that (as stated, when needed). If you decide to do something, and if your decision is well founded and you don't desist, you *will* make progress - but obviously, the quality of being "well founded" is relative to the decisions of other's that you may have to deal with, whether they are or aren't part of corporations. Frankly, I see no conflict in our respective positions, and if you do, that's the way it's going have to stay. DH To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 10:23:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05827 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18135 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:48:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18130 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:48:03 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.70]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:45:47 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991122083138.00837340@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:31:38 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Tofu making byproducts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 430 I want to thank Alex for this receipe and recommend it to all - after personal testing this morning. Also thanks for the info from Jacky Foo that arrived with too many headers for me to figure out, but you know who you are. (my ISP switched email programs - goodbye To,From,Subject and Date, it is now buried in a screenful of junk, for my purposes, information) Mike Miller PS. I will cobble together a flaking mill/cold press in the machine shop and report the effect of oil removal on tofu quality later on. >The okara could indeed be used in animal feed. You could also combine it in >dishes. Or favorite is okara pancakes (makes really light, fluffy pancakes): > >1 1/4 cups whole wheat flour >1Tblsp baking powder >1tsp salt >1 1/3 cups soy milk >1/4 cup oil >2 Tblsp sorghum or honey >1/2 tsp vanilla extract >3 eggs >3/4 cup okara (lightly packed) >Mix dry ingredients thoroughly. Mix wet ingredients separately. Combine. You >know how to do the rest, probably. > >"The Book of Tofu" by Shurtleff & Aoyagi has more recipes and a whole lot of >tofu lore and history. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 14:34:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10636 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18548 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18516 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09235 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([152.200.223.220]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 157; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:30:41 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991122105838.03230540@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:58:38 -0600 To: H-RURAL@H-NET.MSU.EDU, forest-pacrim@igc.org, sustag@coafes.umn.edu, keepers-l@keeper.org, sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Announcing IATP's new WTOWATCH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 431 Dear Friends: We are pleased to announce the opening of WWW.WTOWATCH.ORG, The global information center on the WTO, trade, and sustainable development. Whether you are a trade policy specialist, a reporter covering the WTO, or a citizen interested in learning more about global trade, you will find the information you want. What you will find at WWW.WTOWATCH.ORG: Up-to-date calendar of activities in Seattle and beyond. A vast collection of documents, articles and reports on trade. Live and archived multimedia channels to see and hear what is taking place, as it happens. Press center to assist the media in covering the trade debates. Links to other trade web sites around the world. Fast Facts to help you understand complicated trade issues. A search engine to help you quickly locate the information you want. WWW.WTOWATCH.ORG is hosted by the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy (IATP), a policy research institute looking at the links between local and global policy in the areas of production agriculture, natural resource conservation, and rural community development. IATP, with a staff of thirty, has played a key role in planning and organizing a wide-range of public education events in Seattle as part of the overall Ministerial meeting. We invite you to make WWW.WTOWATCH.ORG your home on the Internet for trade, WTO, and sustainable development issues. HTTP://WWW.WTOWATCH.ORG Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 16:13:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13919 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24629 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:49:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lobster.eky.com (root@lobster.eky.com [209.211.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24543 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from halsdesktop (ip3-36.eky.com [209.211.3.36]) by lobster.eky.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00470 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Hal Hamilton" To: "Sanet" Subject: FW: Organique farming Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:45:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 Would someone please respond to the French researcher below re studies of organic production of cereals. Thanks Hal Hamilton Center for Sustainable Systems 433 Chestnut St., Berea KY 40403 USA Phone: (606) 986-5336; Fax: (606) 986-1299 hhamilton@centerss.org -----Original Message----- From: Philippe VIAUX [mailto:pviaux@itcf.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 2:20 PM To: hhamilton@centerss.org Subject: Organique farming To Hal Hamilton Dear Hal Following the meeting in Valencia you have write the Findings of the geocultural Group "United States of America. It seem to me that you have some good information about organic farming in the USA. I want to study the organic production of céréals in USA (technical, économical and régulation aspect). Can you tell me if you know some good contact in université working on that topic ? thank you for your help. best regard Philippe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Philippe Viaux I.T.C.F Institut Technique des Céréales et Fourrages Station Expérimentale 91720 BOIGNEVILLE Tel:01.64.99.22.00 Fax:01.64.99.30.39 Email: pviaux@itcf.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 16:16:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13980 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03401 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:04:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from empm.cdpr.ca.gov (empm.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.108.6]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03396 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [134.186.108.48] (empmac.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.108.48]) by empm.cdpr.ca.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07649 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:03:11 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brunetti@134.186.108.6 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:03:15 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Kathy Brunetti Subject: Report on 1998 Calif. Pesticide Use Released Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id PAA03398 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 433 This is a press release from the Calif. Dept of Pesticide Regulation. I have been on vacation, so don't know it it has already been posted to SANET. Kathy Brunetti, Senior Land and Water Analyst California Department of Pesticide Regulation *********************************************** California Department of Pesticide Regulation November 5, 1999 (99-27) For Immediate Release DPR Releases 1998 Pesticide Use Data SACRAMENTO -- Cal/EPA's Department of Pesticide Regulation reports that pesticide use went up 5 percent in 1998, based on pounds applied. DPR data also showed that use of some highly toxic chemicals dropped to their lowest levels in years, while use of reduced-risk pesticides sharply increased. DPR's preliminary data showed total reported use at 215 million pounds in 1998, compared to 204.8 million pounds in 1997. (Data summaries may be viewed and downloaded from DPR's Web site . DPR plans to continue its review of the 1998 data for errors and release a final version by the end of December.) Reported use includes production agriculture and postharvest fumigation of crops, structural pest control, landscape maintenance, and other uses. Exempt from reporting requirements are home and garden use of pesticides, and most industrial and institutional uses. "This data is an important tool that helps DPR direct its resources to protect people and the environment," said DPR Director Paul E. Helliker. "It also provides valuable information for researchers, the public, and the agricultural industry." Among findings in the 1998 data: -- All of the increased pesticide use from 1997 to 1998 could be attributed to sulfur, a natural fungicide favored by organic and conventional growers alike. Sulfur use went up 13.7 million pounds as fungicide use generally increased in 1998 due to wet weather created by El Niño, according to DPR analysts. -- Use of reduced-risk chemicals increased by more than 350 percent, from 72,838 pounds in 1997 to 330,882 pounds in 1998. Cumulative acreage treated rose from less than 400,000 acres in 1997 to 1.4 million acres in 1998. [The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) formally began designating certain pesticides as "reduced-risk" chemicals in 1993.] -- Use of methyl bromide, a highly toxic fumigant, declined to its lowest level since 1991. Some 13.9 million pounds of methyl bromide use was reported in 1998, compared to 15.7 million pounds in 1997 and more than 16 million pounds in 1996. Declining poundage coincides with DPR restrictions on structural and agricultural use that impose the strongest controls on methyl bromide in the nation. -- Use of two other pesticides subject to regulatory concerns also declined in 1998. Chlorpyrifos and diazinon -- insecticides used in both agricultural and urban environments -- have been linked to surface water contamination. Diazinon use fell to its lowest level since 1991 -- some 874,662 pounds was applied in 1998, compared to 955,000 pounds in 1997. Chlorpyrifos applications totaled 2.4 million pounds in 1998, compared to 3.2 million pounds in 1997. -- Pesticides classified as reproductive toxins showed the lowest use since 1993, as measured by pounds applied. Some 29.5 million pounds were reported in 1998, compared to 32.6 million pounds in 1997. -- Use of cholinesterase-inhibiting pesticides dropped almost 20 percent from 1997 to 1998, from 16.2 million pounds to 13 million pounds. This represents the lowest reported usage since 1991. (Cholinesterase-inhibiting pesticides disrupt pest nervous systems, and overexposure can cause similar adverse effects in humans.) Some other categories of pesticide use showed an increase. Use of carcinogenic chemicals listed by the State under Proposition 65, or as B2 carcinogens by U.S. EPA, increased about 3 percent, from 24.5 million pounds in 1997 to 25.3 million pounds in 1998. (The B2 designation indicates probable human carcinogens, based on tests on laboratory animals.) "It is important to note that these statistics do not indicate actual exposure to chemicals," said Helliker. "Exposure is the key in determining whether a chemical poses a risk to people or the environment. So our goal is to reduce pesticide exposure to levels where we have no health concerns. DPR is leading the search for reduced-risk pest management methods." The 350 percent increase in use of reduced-risk chemicals from 1997 to 1998 coincides with several DPR efforts. Since 1996, for example, DPR has given top priority to registration of reduced-risk chemicals. The Department has also provided more than $4.3 million in grants since 1996 to support integrated pest management (IPM), a strategy that emphasizes natural pest control and minimal chemical use. California is the only state that requires full use reporting, and DPR has compiled the reports in the most extensive database of its kind in the nation. DPR analyses show pesticide use varies from year to year, depending upon pest problems, weather, cropping patterns, and other factors. Summaries of 1998 pesticide use -- categorized by chemical and crop or site -- are available free online at . The 1996 and 1997 pesticide use summaries are also available on the Web site. Two summary versions of the data (one indexed by pesticides, the other by crops) include number of applications, acreage or units treated, and pounds of pesticide used. The 300-page summaries may be ordered in hard copy ($10 each) or on diskette ($2.50). To order, send payment to: Cashier, California Department of Pesticide Regulation, 830 K Street, Sacramento 95814-3510. A complete data set of the 2.5 million-plus individual 1998 pesticide use records is also available on CD ROM for $12. For information about the CD-ROM, call the DPR Environmental Monitoring and Pest Management Branch at 916/324-4100. DPR has supplemented the use data with a major study published online: Pesticide Use Analysis and Trends from 1991 to 1996. The study examines critical crops, pest problems, and high-use chemicals. It also analyzes trends in pesticides where use is highest as measured in pounds, number of applications, and acres treated. The study is online at . One of six boards and departments within the California Environmental Protection Agency, DPR regulates the use of pesticides to protect human health and the environment. -END- Media contacts: Veda Federighi, Glenn Brank (916) 445-3974 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 16:18:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14043 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05336 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:10:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from empm.cdpr.ca.gov (empm.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.108.6]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05315 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [134.186.108.48] (empmac.cdpr.ca.gov [134.186.108.48]) by empm.cdpr.ca.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07724 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:08:51 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brunetti@134.186.108.6 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:08:53 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Kathy Brunetti Subject: Calif. announces IPM Innovator Awards Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 This is a press release from the Calif. Dept of Pesticide Regulation. I have been on vacation, so don't know it it has already been posted to SANET. Kathy Brunetti, Senior Land and Water Analyst California Department of Pesticide Regulation *********************************************** November 3, 1999 (99-26 Media Contacts Veda Federighi, Glenn Brank Eight Partners with Nature to Receive Innovator Awards SACRAMENTO -- Putting "green" tactics to work on famous fairways. Creating wildlife habitat in vineyards. Cleaning up urban creeks. Introducing natural pest control in orchards. These and other success stories for nature-friendly pest control will earn 1999 IPM Innovator awards Thursday (November 4) from Cal/EPA's Department of Pesticide Regulation. Cal/EPA Secretary Winston H. Hickox and DPR Director Paul E. Helliker will present the Innovator awards at 1:30 p.m. ceremonies in the Governor's Council Room at the State Capitol. IPM -- integrated pest management -- works with the environment to make it difficult for pests to survive, while encouraging beneficial organisms to flourish. IPM Innovator awards recognize organizations that pioneer least-toxic approaches to pest control and then help others do the same. Hickox commended the Innovators. "As Cal/EPA Secretary, I am committed to being a strong advocate for the environment. So I am especially pleased to present awards to others who share that deep commitment. Their contribution to enhancing California's environmental quality has been exceptional." DPR Director Paul E. Helliker also praised the recipients. "People talk about the Silicon Valley as the heart of California's innovative spirit," said DPR Director Paul E. Helliker. "However, they have a ways to go to match the pioneering spirit of California's farmers, who lead the nation in environmental innovation. "These agricultural innovators believe that they can make a difference -- and they have," Helliker said. "Through laborious and costly trial-and-error, over many growing seasons, they developed new ways to fight age-old pests, with the goal of protecting both the environment and their financial future. "And then, contrary to what business-school textbooks tell you about getting ahead, these innovators shared their solutions with others in the belief that protecting the environment doesn't stop at your own property line," Helliker said. "The non-agricultural innovators faced different problems, but used a similar approach, sharing the results of their hard work to help solve stubborn urban pest problems. They approach environmental education with a missionary zeal that has helped make our neighborhoods better places to live," said Helliker. The award winners are: Aquatic Outreach Institute (AOI), Richmond, develops and manages educational and outreach programs for creeks, wetlands, and watersheds in the San Francisco Bay Area. Primarily funded by local cities and counties, AOI's programs provide thousands of educators, schoolchildren, and the public with information about aquatic resources, IPM, and proper pesticide disposal. AOI conducts most of its programs in the train-the-trainer style, focusing on kindergarten through 12th-grade teachers. Specific programs include the popular Kids in Gardens: A Pesticide Reduction Program, now in its third year. Taught to teachers, this program emphasizes IPM. The teachers then convey information to their students on insect ecology, pest management, beneficial insects and insectary plants, native plants (which are relatively pest free), and urban runoff pollution. Many AOI programs focus on creek pollution that results from urban pesticide runoff. Another program, Watching Our Watersheds: Reducing Pollution through Creek and Gardening Projects helps educators working in low-income areas. Media contact: Kathy Kramer (510) 231-9507. Association of Applied Insect Ecologists (AAIE), Sacramento, is a nonprofit organization of pest control advisors, researchers, and others dedicated to controlling agricultural, landscape, and structural pests through IPM. Created in 1967, the association advocated IPM approaches long before they became popular. Its 200-plus members play a critical role in research, demonstration, and adoption of IPM for a variety of crops and in urban settings in California. AAIE sponsors annual meetings, regional breakfast meetings, workshops, roundtable discussions, and training programs. AAIE's Web site (www.aaie.com) provides links to other IPM sites. The organization produces economic studies, publications, and films in support of IPM, and continues to exchange information and expand knowledge of applied pest ecology and reduced-risk, cost-effective pest management options. Because of its focus on IPM, AAIE stands apart from other professional societies. Media contact: John Plain (916) 441-5224 Benziger Family Winery, Glen Ellen, is a grape-growing and wine-producing family business set up as a partnership with all seven family members working together. The Benzigers produce estate wine from their own grapes and purchase grapes from more than 60 growers for other wine labels. Many of their reduced-risk practices are based on biodynamic principles and include farming without synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, using compost mixtures, and planting cover crops. They develop habitat areas in and around vineyards to build diversity, and prune to manage diseases. On-site plantings enable the winery to attract and conserve beneficial organisms, natural enemies of pests. The Benzigers actively educate their employees, growers, and the public about their IPM practices. They hold bimonthly viticulture classes for their employees and quarterly seminars on low-input farming practices for their growers. The winery gives daily public tours that demonstrate their IPM practices, focusing on natural and low-input practices of grape growing. The winery shows strong IPM leadership in the wine grape industry. Media contact: Chris Benziger (707) 935-4503 California Prune Board, Pleasanton, a state marketing order representing California's prune growers and packers, has supported prune IPM research for 20 years. The board was an original supporter of the Biological Prune Systems (BPS) project, initiated in 1996. BPS growers experimented with cover crops, hedgerow plantings and vegetative buffer strips, and eliminated the use of diazinon as a dormant spray by the project's third year. In 1998 the Board assumed management of BPS and began supporting the University of California Environmentally Sound Prune Systems project, patterned after BPS, but with a UC research focus. Currently, the board oversees both projects under the Prune Pest Management Alliance. There are 22 demonstration orchards in the two projects, comparing conventional and reduced-risk programs. The board provides information on reduced-risk practices at grower field days and through newsletters. Media contact: Gary Obenauf (559) 447-2127. Central Contra Costa Sanitary District ("Central San"), Martinez, is a wastewater treatment agency that encourages the public to adopt IPM practices to reduce the risks of pesticide use, enhance local water quality, and reduce pesticides in wastewater. In partnership with the UC Cooperative Extension Master Gardeners and 13 stores that sell pesticides, Central San began train-the-trainer IPM workshops for Master Gardeners. The Master Gardeners in turn held more than 20 IPM workshops for the public. Central San prepared and distributed consumer fact sheets on such topics as alternative pest management for ants and fleas and proper pesticide disposal. To encourage other agencies to share their IPM information, Central San wrote a how-to guidebook and hosted a how-to workshop. The District has shown exceptional leadership in pollution prevention, inspiring the formation of at least nine other IPM partnerships. Rather than focus only on proper pesticide disposal, Central San was the first wastewater treatment agency in California to take a preventive approach and promote IPM as a means to reduce pesticides in wastewater. Media contact: Paul Morsen (925) 229-7305. LangeTwins, Inc., Acampo, is a partnership of brothers Randall and Brad Lange, who grow grapes for wineries and manage vineyards for others. Their corporation, created in 1979, started with about 300 acres. Today they own or manage more than 5,000 acres of vineyards. Working with an independent pest control advisor, they monitor for insects; use drip irrigation systems that allow them to spoon-feed stressed vines; manage the leaf canopy (such as pulling leaves to allow air circulation, thus reducing disease and the need for fungicides); plant cover crops that help aerate the soil, attract beneficial insects, and create refuges for birds and snakes; select trellis systems to achieve optimum vine balance and health; and use electrostatic sprayers to apply pesticides more precisely. The Lange vineyards are often sites for research on alternative practices. The Langes volunteered their vineyards for the Lodi-Woodbridge Winegrape Commission BIFS demonstration project and routinely hosted half-day grower meetings and field days during the three-year project. LangeTwins, Inc., is an excellent example of an IPM Innovator because of its commitment to IPM practices and its demonstrated leadership and outreach. Media contact: Susan Lange (209) 339-4055. Pebble Beach Company, Pebble Beach, is a multi-facility recreational company in the Monterey Bay area that includes five golf courses, the 17-Mile Drive, and parts of the Del Monte Forest. In 1993, the company established its Resource Management Division to oversee and guide golf course and forestry operations. Since then, the division has expanded to include all facets of natural resources management within Del Monte Forest. The company conducts turfgrass, pesticide, irrigation, and maintenance equipment trials. It has researched treatments for pitch canker disease, and the uses of prescribed burns and mechanical tilling for forest regeneration. In the Del Monte Forest, the company weeds selectively by hand and uses goats for brush control. On its golf courses, to control English daisy, Pebble Beach uses plugging on the greens and spot spraying and hand pulling on the fairways. Grass varieties are selected according to disease and insect resistance. Beneficial fungi are also used for disease control. The company installs nesting boxes for owls and bats for rodent and insect control. The company readily shares IPM information with golf course superintendents, forestry personnel, and the 2,900 residents within the Del Monte Forest through in-house training and public outreach and education programs. The company publishes a monthly Pebble Beach Scoreboard along with various informational flyers on pest status and controls. Media contact: Edward C. (Ted) Horton (831) 625-8419. Weddle, Hansen & Associates, Inc., Placerville, is an independent consulting business started by Pat Weddle in 1975. The company provides its clients information on biologically intensive IPM for pear and apple, charging a fee for service. For almost 25 years, the firm has displayed leadership through promotion and implementation of bio-intensive IPM and reduced-risk pest management. The firm pioneered commercial biologically intensive IPM consulting for pome fruit in El Dorado, Sacramento, and Solano counties in the mid-1970s. It initiated the first commercial-scale project to control codling moth with pheromone mating disruption in California pears and apples. The success of this reduced-risk effort led to participation in the Randall Island Project, now in its sixth year of operation. Growers participating in this project now use 85 percent fewer pounds of organophosphate (OP) insecticides. The project has been a catalyst for similar IPM projects on tree fruit throughout the western states, including large-scale university and federal programs. The firm is also involved in the Pear Pest Management Alliance. The Alliance uses information from the Randall Island Project to reduce OP usage in other pear-growing areas statewide. Media contact: Pat Weddle, (530) 622-9061. IPM Innovator awards are one segment of DPR's overall reduced-risk pest management strategy. While the awards provide rare public recognition for IPM pioneers, DPR also encourages adoption of innovative pest management through demonstration and applied research grants. Since 1996, DPR has awarded about $4.3 million in grants for reduced-risk pest management. DPR will award another $800,000 early next year. DPR sponsors both localized, industry-specific projects (Pest Management Grants program) and large-scale, industry- and statewide projects (the Pest Management Alliance). About 120 projects have been funded by these programs. DPR staffers also meet informally with agricultural and urban interest groups to share IPM information and exchange ideas. More information on DPR's reduced-risk programs is available from DPR's Environmental Monitoring and Pest Management Branch, 830 K Street, Sacramento 95814-3510, phone (916) 324-4100. Additional information on the IPM Innovator program is also available on DPR's Web site . ## To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 16:21:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14084 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03909 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:06:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03770 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4a80a (user-2iveifg.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.73.240]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA08076; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:03:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001d01bf3525$4a133ca0$f049f7a5@4a80a> From: "edie dasher" To: Cc: Subject: Position Announcement: Apprenticeship opportunities in sustainable agriculture Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:07:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF34FB.4D025F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF34FB.4D025F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Position Announcement: Apprenticeship opportunities in sustainable = agriculture Description:Garden Harvest Inc., a 100 acre non-profit farm, has = openings for six apprentices, one of whom is to be skilled in masonry or = carpentry, in its twelve month USDA-funded education program. Learninig = will include all aspects of organic farming, including the production of = tree fruit, vegetables, culinary & medicinal herbs, and specialty cut = flowers. Instruction includes formal classes as well as field = supervision. The program will run one year, starting January 1. On = non-farmable days(the off-season or rainy), apprentices will work on the = construction of farm buildings. The rest of the time they will be = involved in the farm and have the opportunity to specialize in any area = of special interest(whether herbs, vegetables, orchards, flowers, etc.). Requirements: Must be physically fit, highly motivated, and have a = sincere interest in organic farming=20 Financial remuneration: The five apprentices who do not have substantial construction skills: = $240 a week plus a year-end bonus of approximately $2500 to be used = specifically for further education in any field of their choice. The apprentice with substantial carpentry and/of masonry skills: = $27,000 a year. Additional Benefits for all six Apprentices: medical coverage, free = organic produce, possible housing. For more information, or to apply, contact: Jim Dasher, Garden Harvest, Inc., 14045 Mantua Mill Rd., Glyndon, Md. = 21071. Phone: 410-526-0698; Fax: 410-429-3946. e-mail: = edie@sprynet.com. Website: gardenharvest.com ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF34FB.4D025F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Position Announcement: Apprenticeship = opportunities=20 in sustainable agriculture
Description:Garden Harvest=20 Inc., a 100 acre non-profit farm, has openings for six apprentices, = one of=20 whom is to be skilled in masonry or carpentry, in its twelve month=20 USDA-funded education program. Learninig will include all aspects = of=20 organic farming, including the production of tree fruit, vegetables, = culinary=20 & medicinal herbs, and specialty cut flowers.  Instruction = includes=20 formal classes as well as field supervision. The program will run one year, starting January 1.  On = non-farmable=20 days(the off-season or rainy), apprentices will work on the construction = of farm=20 buildings.  The rest of the time they will be involved in the farm = and have=20 the opportunity to specialize in any area of special interest(whether = herbs,=20 vegetables, orchards, flowers, etc.).
 
Requirements: = Must be=20 physically fit, highly motivated, and have a sincere interest in organic = farming=20
 
Financial=20 remuneration:
 The five = apprentices who do not=20 have substantial construction skills: $240 a week plus a = year-end=20 bonus of approximately $2500 to be used specifically for further = education=20 in any field of their choice.
The apprentice with substantial = carpentry=20 and/of masonry skills:  $27,000 a year.
 
Additional Benefits for all = six=20 Apprentices:  medical coverage, free organic produce, = possible=20 housing.
 
For more = information, or to=20 apply, contact:
Jim Dasher, Garden Harvest, Inc., = 14045=20 Mantua Mill Rd., Glyndon, Md. 21071.  Phone:  410-526-0698; = Fax: =20 410-429-3946. e-mail:  edie@sprynet.com.
Website:=20 gardenharvest.com
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF34FB.4D025F60-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 21:52:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22005 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19869 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19816 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0588.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.184.78]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14472; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:23:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38377182.1939AAC@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 20:13:54 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Lee & Pat Foreman CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Free Range Eggs References: <19991020013119288.AAG347@ns.rockbridge.net@[206.151.5.54]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 436 I pay over $3 for a dozen, always free range, sometimes also fertile. This is San Diego Andy Lee & Pat Foreman wrote: > > > > > I came across an article about some small scale farmers getting $2.00 per > >>dozen for unfertilized free range, $4 for fertilized and $6 for green > >>Araucana eggs. I know the $2 price is accurate, but the other two are a > >>shock. > >> > > I checked with the largest natural foods store in my region of Virginia, and > they will willingly pay $2 per dozen for real free range eggs. On the other > hand, they don't pay extra for "fertilized" eggs, and the idea of green eggs > being worth $6 per dozen was somewhat amusing to them. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 21:52:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22013 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19913 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19865 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0588.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.184.78]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14547; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:23:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3837721E.3AC4E693@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 20:16:30 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "amcguire@wsu.edu" CC: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Re: Kelp and Chromium References: <01BF0021.034900E0.amcguire@coopext.cahe.wsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 437 yes, seaweed has been used for manydecades, for animal feed as well as for crops. See the book: Seaweed in Agriculture and Horticulture. Andy McGuire wrote: > Some new scientific discoveries that made me wonder. > > >From an AP article: Researchers at Texas Tech have discovered that cattle > that are fed kelp gain more weight, are more resistant to disease, and are > more likely to be of a higher grade when butchered. The article states > that the researchers "discovered" the benefits of seaweed by accident. It > seems they overheard other researchers who were noticing differences in > turf grass on golf courses that had been sprayed with a kelp solution. > They wondered if it would work with cattle, and BING they had a discovery. > > I am not positive, but I think that organic farmers have been using kelp in > similar ways for years. Maybe the next big discovery will be that feeding > kelp to chickens (as Joel Salatin has been for years) is also beneficial. > Just think of all the possible scientific discoveries we could have by > looking at organic farming practices and then putting the science stamp of > approval on those practices. > > However, it was noted that "Ranchers seem skeptical," but would try it if > it were available on the market. Who knows, it could end up in feedlot > bunks across the country. > > Reminds me of a quote of Deepak Chopra: 'Science is always behind. In the > beginning scientists say, "This guy's a fraud," but then their second > reaction is that maybe he or she has something to say. Their third > reaction is that they do have something to say but that we don't buy all of > it. Their fourth reaction is that it was their idea in the first place. > Then it becomes mainstream thinking, and then finally it's scientific > dogma. Because science is a dogma like anything else. It can't be > divorced from the content of the cultural world view. What science is very > useful for is to document something that we already know." > > On this same line, ARS researchers have given us another reason to give up > Wonder bread. They have found that Chromium deficiency, common in > industrialized nations, can lead to middle-age diabetes. Whole grains, > they say, are a good source of chromium. > > That's all. > > Andy McGuire > Agricultural Systems Educator > Washington State University Cooperative Extension > PO Box 37, Courthouse > Ephrata WA 98823 > 509-754-2011, Ext. 413 > Fax: 509-754-0163 > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 21:53:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22045 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21468 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:30:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21436 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0588.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.184.78]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17206; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:26:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3838A084.179F78B5@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:46:44 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rudolf Zubler CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sustAg in classroom References: <000201bf2df1$f398aa20$461fd1cd@Rudzub> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9567D62B247C9D9D47D9487E" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 438 --------------9567D62B247C9D9D47D9487E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you are right about that. If I were young again, instead of 84 now, I would not fight so hard to get organic method become popular, as I did when I got Calif to be so interested in organic method. Instead, I would work to force the schools to teach atoms and molecules in kindergarten, so that by the time a child was in 3rd grade, that child could explain what an enzyme is and what it does---not have to wait until s/he is 60 and dying of cancer. It is SO important for people to understand basic biochemistry so they can know what is going on inside them and appreciate what good, organically grown food can do. Also how to raise such foods. I don't know who would be willing to fight so hard now. Wish I were young enough to do it now. I already have done the big battle for organics in Calif.--at the end of the line now, sad to say Rudolf Zubler wrote: > Hello everyone,my name is Rudy, I'm a commercial dairy and crop > farmer in Ontario.I strongly agree with John Lozier that we should > start talking about simply "agriculture" instead of all these special > definitions that confuse everyone and rebuke some. Agriculture in the > true sense of the meaning is sust. ecol. org. etc. anyway, the OTHER > STUFF like huge hog facilities, monocultures of annual crops, gmos etc > SHOULD NEED EXTRA LABELS.We have to get over the idea that things "in > tune with nature" are alternatives, and all this crazy stuff about > dominating her is conventional.Sustainable, organic, eco-farming is > simply NORMAL PRACTICE, the other way around is INDUSTRIAL FOOD > PRODUCTION !Just like being an "environmental activist" is not about > going to demos on weekends, but simply including the ecological > impact assessment in every decision we make every day (doesn't have to > be fancy!).Let's quit talking about it, just go out and DO IT !But to > get back on the subject of teaching: what this culture needs most is > basics - get gardening and housekeeping ("household management" if you > like it fancy) into the curriculum from Kindergarten to grade 12, 1 > or 2 hours a week. These are basic life skills that need training like > any other. Of course, further studies into the relationships of ag. > and society are needed too, but first give everyone an understanding > of "what the heck's it all about". This would also improve society in > general.Best regards Rudy Zubler --------------9567D62B247C9D9D47D9487E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you are right about that. If I were young again, instead of 84 now, I would not fight so hard to get organic method become popular, as I did when I got Calif to be so interested in organic method. Instead, I would work to force the schools to teach atoms and molecules in kindergarten, so that by the time a child was in 3rd grade, that child could explain what an enzyme is and what it does---not have to wait until s/he is 60 and dying of cancer.
   It is SO important for people to understand basic biochemistry so they can know what is going on inside them and appreciate what good, organically grown food can do. Also how to raise such foods.

I don't know who would be willing to fight so hard now. Wish I were young enough to do it now.  I already have done the big battle for organics in Calif.--at the end of the line now, sad to say

Rudolf Zubler wrote:

 Hello everyone,my name is Rudy, I'm a commercial dairy and crop farmer in Ontario.I strongly agree with John Lozier that we should start talking about simply  "agriculture" instead of all these special definitions that confuse everyone and rebuke some. Agriculture in the true sense of the meaning is sust. ecol. org. etc. anyway, the OTHER STUFF like huge hog facilities, monocultures of annual crops, gmos etc SHOULD NEED EXTRA LABELS.We have to get over the idea that things "in tune with  nature" are alternatives, and all this crazy stuff about dominating her is conventional.Sustainable, organic, eco-farming  is simply NORMAL PRACTICE, the other way around is INDUSTRIAL FOOD PRODUCTION !Just like being an "environmental activist" is not about going to demos  on weekends, but simply including the ecological impact assessment in every decision we make every day (doesn't have to be fancy!).Let's quit talking about it, just go out and DO IT !But to get back on the subject of teaching: what this culture needs most is basics - get gardening and housekeeping ("household management" if you like it fancy) into the curriculum from  Kindergarten to grade 12, 1 or 2 hours a week. These are basic life skills that need training like any other. Of course, further studies into the relationships of ag. and society are needed too, but first give everyone an understanding of "what the heck's it all about". This would also improve society in general.Best regards    Rudy Zubler
  --------------9567D62B247C9D9D47D9487E-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 21:53:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22055 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19791 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19749 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0588.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.184.78]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14400; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:23:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38377101.7450C667@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 20:11:45 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Lee & Pat Foreman CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Farmers Market publications References: <19991003002721593.AAM146@ns.rockbridge.net@[206.151.5.18]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 439 yes, very good books, all of them. Andy Lee & Pat Foreman wrote: > >From: owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu (sanet-mg-digest) > >To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu > >Subject: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1325 > >Date: Fri, Oct 1, 1999, 4:09 PM > > > > > To the list: > > > > My graduate students are working on a project concerning the > > development, implementation and evaluation of Farmer's Markets. At > > the end of this letter I have included the citations they have found > > and have or are ordering. If there are other suggestions, please let > > me know. Thank you. > > Hi Patrick, you might check out my book BACKYARD MARKET GARDENING available > from me or from your local library. Also Jeff Ishee wrote DYNAMIC FARMERS > MARKETING, and Eric Gibson wrote SEll WHAT YOU SOW. These are all great > resources. All three are being re-written and up-dated this year, but most > of the information in the first issues is timeless. > > Regards, > > Andy Lee, Director > Good Earth Farm and School > 1702 Mountain View Road > Buena Vista, Virginia 24416 > Phone and Fax: 540-261-8775 > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 22 21:55:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22081 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21405 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:29:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21400 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0588.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.184.78]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17870; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:27:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3839F45C.A0201071@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:56:44 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Brooks Gruver CC: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: quote from Justus von Liebig References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 440 I am pleased to see yet another quote from that man, Liebig. All these years I have fought the lies about ion absorption. At the university, Liebig is always cited as authority for all those lies. No one ever admitted, no one ever told me, that at the end of his life, Liebig recanted completely. He was sorry he had ever promoted that nonsensical, ion-chemical fertilizer responsible fable--the worldwide spread falsehoods that underlie all the world's data of NPK.. In my Organic Method Primer BASICS (a reduced version of my Primer UPDATE), I copied the famous quote of Liebig, spoken before his death, that I had looked for in vain, for a long time. I copied it (with permission, of course) from the superduper, prize-winning book by Wm Jackson: "Humic, Fulvic and Microbial Balance: Organic Soil Conditioning." I don't know how Dr. Jackson found it, since I had never been able to find it. So here is the famous admission from Liebig--- that he had spent his professional life with a lying basis---- that has been the false foundation of practically all the university type researches (catering to the chemical companies) that so fondly embrace the.lies about ion absorption by plant roots: And please note, that he finally admitted it was the Creator (JHVH), who knew what He was doing. "I had sinned against the wisdom of our creator, and received just punishment for it. I wanted to improve his handiwork, and in my blindness, I believed that in this wonderful chain of laws, which ties life to the surface of the earth and always keeps it rejuvenated, there might be a link missing that had to be replaced by me--this weak, powerless nothing. "The law, to which my reearch on the topsoil led me, states, 'On the outer crust of the earth, under the influence of the sun, organic life shall develop'. and so, the great master and builder gave the fragments of the earth the ability to attract and hold all these elements necessary to feed plants and further serve animals, like a magnet attracts and holds iron particles, so as no piece be lost. Our master enclosed a second law unto this one, through which the plant bearing earth becomes an enormous cleansing apparatus for the water. Through this particular ability, the earth removes from the water all substances harmful to humans and animals--all products of decay and putrefaction, of perished plant and animal generations. "What might justify my actions is the circumstance, that a man is the product of his time, and he is only able to escape the commonly accepted views if a violent pressure urges him to muster all his strength to struggle free of these chains of error. The opinion, that plants draw their food from a solution that is formed in the soil through rainwater, was everyone's belief. It was engraved into my mind. This opinion was wrong and the source of my foolish behavior. "When a chemist makes a mistake in ratig agricultural fertilizers, don't be too critical of his errors, because he has had to base his conclusions upon facts which he can't know from his own experience, but rather, has to take from agricultural texts as true and reliable. After I learned the reason why my fertilizers weren't effective in the proper way, I was like a person that received a new life. For along with that, all processes of tillage were now explained as to their natural laws. Now that this principle is known and clear to all eyes, the only thing thata remains is the astonishment of why it hadn't been discovered a long time ago. The human spirit, however, is a strange thing. Whatever doesn't fit inot the given circle of thinking, doesn't exist." ==================================================== ==================================================== Joel Brooks Gruver wrote: > Hello to all... > > While perusing a book titled > Fauna in soil ecosystems: recycling processes, nutrient fluxes and > agricultural production (edited by Gero Benckiser, Marcel Dekker, 1997, > ISBN 0-8247-9786-8) I encountered a very interesting quote attributed to > an individual somewhat infamous in sustainable ag circles. In 1855, Justus > Von Liebig wrote: > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual and > animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will > be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade > the farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist > in nature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the > farmer will forget the soil and lose sight of his inheent values and their > influence." > > The original source of this quote is Liebig von, J. (1855) > Die Grundsatze der Agriculturchemie mit Rucksicht auf die in England > angestellten Untersuchungen. Braunschweig. > > Those are some interesting words to ponder in this age of biotech promises > of "universal remedies"... > > Joel Gruver > Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment > Tufts University > > P.S. I have the original German if anyone is interested. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 23 01:47:31 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25032 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13670 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:37:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta009.topica.com (outmta009.topica.com [206.132.75.221]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA13657 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:37:08 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Resource Pointer #226 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:34:16 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.1418298985-212058698-943338856@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 441 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Resource Pointer #226 November 22, 1999 For copies of the following resources, please contact the appropriate publishers or organizations directly. *When Trade is Toxic: the WTO Threat to Public and Planetary Health, 1999* Jim Puckett. Focuses on how World Trade Organization (WTO) threatens environmental protection and public health. Covers promotion of trade in toxics, threats to precautionary principle and more. Explains current status of WTO discussion of "chemical and allied products" sector, slated for expedited agreement to promote trade. Discusses attempts by Australia to limit treaty on persistent organic pollutants (POPs) by providing for WTO supremacy. 38 pp. Free with donation to Basel Action Network (BAN). Contact Asia Pacific Environmental Exchange (APEX), 1827 39th Ave. E., Seattle, Washington 98112; phone (206) 720-6426; email apex@seanet.com; or BAN, email info@ban.org, website http://www.ban.org *Invisible Government -- The World Trade Organization: Global Government for the New Millennium?, 1999* Debi Barker and Jerry Mander. Provides introduction to development and structure of World Trade Organization (WTO) and explains implications for environment, agriculture, food, public health, intellectual property rights and more. Environment section covers key WTO provisions and rulings with environmental effects and discusses status of trade agreements on wood products and water. Agriculture, food and public health section includes explanation of rulings on bananas, beef, dairy products and pesticide residue levels. 45 pp. US$5 IFG members, US$8 nonmembers. Contact International Forum on Globalization, 1555 Pacific Ave., San Francisco, CA 94109; phone (415) 771-3394; fax (415) 771-1102; email ifg@ifg.org; website http://www.ifg.org *Food First Trade Principles, 1999* Peter Rossett. Food First Backgrounder. Outlines environmental, social and human rights problems associated with trade liberalization. Presents principles that should be met by any future trade bill, treaty or policy. Principles include no corporate welfare; no food dumping; and mandatory environmental, social and other impact studies. 4 pp. US$0.50. Contact Food First/Institute for Food and Development Policy, 398 60th St., Oakland, CA 94618; phone (510) 654-4400; email foodfirst@foodfirst.org; website http://www.foodfirst.org *International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development website* http://www.ictsd.com/html Provides information for members of civil society concerned about social and environmental effects of trade. Includes past and current issues of BRIDGES, weekly digest of news related to trade and sustainable development. Special section on November 1999 World Trade Organization (WTO) Third Ministerial Meeting in Seattle includes ongoing calendar of official WTO, comprehensive daily calendar of civil society events, map showing event locations and more. Contact International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development, International Environment House, 13 chemin des Anémones, 1219 Châtelaine, Geneva, Switzerland; phone (41-22) 917-8492; fax (41-22) 917-8093; email ictsd@ictsd.ch *The Activist Cookbook: Creative Actions for a Fair Economy, 1997* Andrew Boyd. Manual for organizers, artists and educators. Presents ideas for theater, art and other creative approaches to making political statements. Includes descriptions of skits and role plays such as "Minimum Wage Limbo," "Credit Card Pole Vault," "Inequality Olympics," plus ideas for guerrilla leafleting and more. Outlines principles for effective action-performance such as choosing powerful metaphors and balancing subtlety with clarity. Second printing. 110 pp. US$15. Contact United for a Fair Economy, 37 Temple Place, 2nd floor, Boston, MA 02111; phone (617) 423-2148; fax (617) 423-0191; email stw@stw.org; website http://www.stw.org We encourage those interested in having resources listed in the PANUPS Resource Pointer to send review copies of publications, videos or other resources to our office. =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ What's hot at Topica? Sign up for our "Best New Lists" newsletter and find out! http://www.topica.com/t/8 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 23 08:31:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28952 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:31:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA10227 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:12:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10206 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp2.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA24841 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:10:23 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07479 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:12:43 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 14:04:36 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 14:03:50 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:03:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: advertisement for foods Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <271FE5D0E8B@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 442 remember the discussion about the relation between bare food price and advertisment costs ? here's one of the reasons why: ----- Frontiers of Science New scientific research has shown the mood of a family dinners can be dramatically improved by serving Pepperidge Farm Garlic Bread. Dr. Alan R. Hirsch, director of the Smell & Taste Treatment and Research Foundation in Chicago, has published an important study on "The Effect of the Smell and Taste of Pepperidge Farm Garlic Bread on Family Interactions." Two identical spaghetti dinners were served to 50 families, but only half were given the garlic bread. The results: "Researchers found that eating Pepperidge Farm Garlic Bread reduced the number of negative family interactions by 22.7 percent and increased the number of pleasant interactions by 7.4 percent." From this he calculated that for a family of four, a serving of the Pepperidge Farm product "results in thirty-one fewer negative interactions and forty-five more positive interactions per dinner." Now that's real science. Dr. Hirsch's research was made possible by funding from Campbell Soup (owners of guess who), showing once again the importance of corporate involvement. (Harper's 5/99, p.12) ----- guess i'm right, that funding in this case means: the fund's money is added to the soup's price.... and it would be interesting to know, if having two servings will result in a whole 90 positive interactions per dinner and with how much servingss there will be a turn in trend... klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 23 11:10:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01574 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13095 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:33:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13076 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id JAA03726; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:30:27 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xma003396; Tue, 23 Nov 99 09:30:15 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:30:14 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A002A@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Garlic therapy Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:30:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 443 Klaus, > ...a serving of the Pepperidge Farm product [Garlic bread] > "results in thirty-one fewer negative interactions > and forty-five more positive interactions per dinner." Just goes to show how good garlic really is! Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 23 13:32:57 1999 -0500 Received: from net.bio.net (net.bio.net [198.94.52.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05665 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA12401 for symbios-list; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA12396; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:31:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911231831.KAA12396@net.bio.net> To: nobody@net.bio.net X-Really-To: symbios@net.bio.net Newsgroups: bionet.biology.symbiosis Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:00:10 -0800 (PST) From: BIOSCI Administrator Subject: BIOSCI/bionet miniFAQ & Fundraiser Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 444 (LAST REVISION: 14-AUG-99) This BIOSCI "miniFAQ" is designed to answer the questions that come up the *most frequently*. The main BIOSCI FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is accessible on the World Wide Web at URL http://www.bio.net/. If you can not find an answer to your question in this or other documentation, the BIOSCI technical support staff answers e-mail queries sent to biosci-help@net.bio.net We can only answer questions about the use of the newsgroups and mailing lists. We unfortunately do not have the staff to do Internet information searches or answer scientific questions. Please post those to the appropriate BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. Contents: -------- 0) BIOSCI NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT!! 1) Using the WWW to access the BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. 2) What to do about "spams," i.e., junk mail, ads, etc. 3) Examples of subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing lists. 4) The BIOSCI user address and research interest directory. 0) BIOSCI NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT!! ------------------------------ BIOSCI's government funding has been expended, and we are now operating solely from advertising revenue that we have raised from our Web site at http://www.bio.net/. We need just a few minutes of your time to help us serve you. You can do two important things which will take very little time for you individually and will immensely help us continue to help you. First, please use our WWW system at http://www.bio.net/ to access the archives. You can post or reply to messages via your Web browser as described in item #1 below. Your usage helps attract sponsors. If you contact any of our sponsors, please be sure to thank them for supporting BIOSCI. It is critical for them to get this feedback if they are to continue their sponsorship for the long term. Second, if you work for a company or organization that provides products or services of interest to the biology community, please pass this message on to your marketing or marketing communications department or other appropriate group. Please ask them to help support BIOSCI by sponsoring our Web site and explain the uses and benefits of the system to the biology community. If they are interested, they can then contact us for further information at our tech support address, biosci-help@net.bio.net. 1) Using the WWW to access the BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. -------------------------------------------------------- All BIOSCI/bionet full newsgroups are accessible through the World Wide Web (WWW) at URL http://www.bio.net. One can read and reply publicly or privately to both recent postings and archived messages through one's Web browser if it is configured properly to send e-mail. Each newsgroup is equipped with its own WAIS index. The main BIOSCI home page also has access to the BIO-JOURNALS Table of Contents database WAIS index and the BIOSCI user address database described in another item further below. 2) What to do about "spams," i.e., junk mail, ads, etc. ------------------------------------------------------- BIOSCI is a set of parallel USENET newsgroups (the "bionet" groups), mailing lists, and a hypermail archive at URL http://www.bio.net/. The same postings are distributed on all media (except for a small number of mailing-list-only groups at net.bio.net). Unfortunately it is becoming a despicable practice on the Internet (by a few people out to make a fast buck) to do automated mass postings to thousands of newsgroups and mailing lists. These attempts to grab free advertising are refered to as "spams" in the usual, somewhat boneheaded, net terminology. USENET is more susceptible to this practice, and many spams originate on the USENET groups and then are passed on to the mailing lists. However, spammers also get lists of mailing addresses and hit these too, so neither medium is immune. What should you do personally if you get junk mail? --------------------------------------------------- Just delete it and move on without reading it further. Filing a protest is becoming increasingly useless because spammers are often disguising the addresses where the messages are sent from. Unless you really understand Internet mail systems, your attempt at protest by sending replies to the message will often end up being sent to the address of an innocent person that the spammer is victimizing. What can BIOSCI/bionet do to protect its newsgroups? ---------------------------------------------------- The only solution currently available is to moderate the newsgroup. If this newsgroup is already moderated, then you are in good shape. Moderation protects the USENET distribution from about 95% of the spams that are being sent to date and protects the mailing lists completely. Moderation means, however, that someone has to take the time to review each message before it goes out. We have set up software here that simply allows the moderator to forward to an address at net.bio.net messages that (s)he wishes to have distributed. This takes no more time than that needed to read the message and pass it on, say about 1 min. per message. Most newsgroups currently have a discussion leader who is responsible for their newsgroup. The discussions leaders and their e-mail addresses are listed in the BIOSCI Information Sheet which is available on the Web at http://www.bio.net/. If a newsgroup is being hit with too many junk postings, please contact the discussion leader for that group and see if there is interest in moderating the group. Please do not assume that by simply posting a complaint to the newsgroup itself, anyone on the BIOSCI staff will act on your complaint. With close to 100 newsgroups to run, the BIOSCI staff has to rely on the discussion leaders of each newsgroup to report problems directly to us at biosci-help@net.bio.net. We will moderate any of our newsgroups if the discussion leader tells us that the readership of the group wishes to do so and if a moderator is willing to do the work. For most BIOSCI/bionet groups, this entails only a few minutes of work each day. Moderating a newsgroup will resolve probably 95% of the junk postings on the USENET distribution. Unfortunately there are easy ways for determined spammers to override the moderation mechanism on USENET, but we can protect our e-mail subscribers from unwanted postings if the newsgroup is moderated. You can also access our newsgroups over the WWW at URL http://www.bio.net. While this Web interface will not stop spammers from trying to post to the groups, this will give you yet another way, besides using USENET news, to keep the junk out of your personal mail files. For those of you with local USENET news systems, the Web interface will also give you faster access to new newsgroups and recent postings. 3) Examples of subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing lists. ------------------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE NOTE: The BIOSCI management does NOT act on subscription/unsubscription requests that are posted improperly to the newsgroups and mailing lists. People who do this only bother everyone on the lists to no avail. Please be sure to follow the proper procedures below. Gory details are in the BIOSCI Information sheets on the Web at http://www.bio.net. Below we give an example utilizing the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS list at both of our two BIOSCI sites: Users in the Americas and Pacific Rim countries who use the BIOSCI ------------------------------------------------------------------ node at computer net.bio.net: ---------------------------- A) Determine the "listname" which is the <=8 character mail address ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for the group. These can be found in the BIOSCI Info. Sheet. For the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS group the mailing address is methods@net.bio.net. The listname is the portion of the address to the left of the @ sign, i.e., "methods". The listname is used with the "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" commands illustrated below. B) Mail all commands in the body of a mail message addressed to biosci-server@net.bio.net. Do NOT send commands to the newsgroup posting addresses! Leave the Subject: line blank, any text on it will be ignored. C) In the body of your message put one or more of the following commands with an "end" command on the last line, e.g., subscribe methods unsubscribe methods end Do NOT put your e-mail address or other text on these lines. The server only allows you to cancel your subscription if the address on your mail header matches the address on our mailing list. Please ask for help at biosci-help@net.bio.net if your address has changed, e.g., if you know you are on the list but the server tells you that you are not a member. Users in Europe, Africa, and Central Asia who use the BIOSCI node at -------------------------------------------------------------------- the UK-HGMP-Resource Centre (known as hgmp.mrc.ac.uk): ----------------------------------------------------- A) Determine the "listname" which is the <=8 character mail address ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for the group. These can be found in the BIOSCI Info. Sheet. For the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS group the mailing address is methods@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk. The listname is the portion of the address to the left of the @ sign, i.e., "methods". The listname is used with the "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" commands illustrated below. B) Mail all commands in the body of a mail message addressed to majordomo@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk. Do NOT send commands to the newsgroup posting addresses! Leave the Subject: line blank, any text on it will be ignored. C) In the body of your message put one or more of the following commands with an "end" command on the last line, e.g., subscribe methods unsubscribe methods end Please ask for help at biosci@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk if your address has changed, e.g., if you know you are on the list but the server tells you that you are not a member. 4) The BIOSCI user address and research interest directory. ----------------------------------------------------------- Please take this opportunity to add your name, address, and research interest information to the BIOSCI User Address Database if you have not already done so. You can fill out the address form directly through our Web page at URL http://www.bio.net/adrform.html. The address database is reindexed nightly for WWW access (the URL is http://www.bio.net/). If you are not directly on the Internet but can reach it by e-mail, please use our waismail server to access the user directory. waismail use is described above. You can also request a user address form by e-mail from biosci-help@net.bio.net. Please check your database entry from time-to-time to see if your address information is still up-to-date. Because of our limited personnel resources, we ask that you resubmit a *complete* form to revise your entry; we only replace complete entries and do not have resources to edit old forms. From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 23 17:43:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10747 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25309 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:01:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.96.18]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25215 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:01:26 -0500 (EST) From: jdevlin@oac.uoguelph.ca Received: from OACSRV.nw.uoguelph.ca (oacnet.nw.uoguelph.ca [131.104.224.6]) by ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA02655 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:59:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911232159.QAA02655@ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca> Received: from OACSRV/SpoolDir by OACSRV.nw.uoguelph.ca (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 16:59:03 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by OACSRV (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 16:58:50 -0500 Organization: University of Guelph To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Radiation Resistant Bacteria From "Sterilized" Meat X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 445 On 19 Nov 99, at 22:07, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote about Deinococcus radiodurans which can survive high doses of radiation. As Mike said: "This is amazing and a tribute to the adapability of bacteria. 1,500,000 rads of gamma radiation can't kill this stuff. Sure hope it never shares plasmid dna for this trait with E coli and other types of bacteria found in the meat before the radiation treatment. " The problem of course is that in the hands of genetic researchers this genetic material will inevitably be sliced and diced into a variety of other organisms. This is precisely the hope of the authors of the original article. As the story title indicated RADIATION RESISTANT BACTERIA COULD ADVANCE MEDICINE, WASTE CLEANUPS "We anticipate a terrific boost for industrial and environmental microbiology," said TIGR president Claire Fraser. "D. radiodurans is readily manipulated in the lab, so new functions can be introduced into its genome. We foresee its use for novel industrial processes that most bacteria cannot survive." For those that thought the terminator gene was dangerous this should send shivers of terror down our spines. Transfers of the virtually indestructable characteristic into industrial biological applications would not be as open an exposure as would be created by the release of the terminator gene in seed. But the speed of replication would be measured in hours rather than years. This could give the concept of "superbug" a completely new scale of meaning. ...........JD ------------------------------------------------- John F. Devlin, International Project Coordinator, School of Rural Planning and Development Room 110 Textiles Building, The University of Guelph Tel: 519-824-4120 Ext.3773 Fax: 519-821-9904 Visit the ECEP website: www.uoguelph.ca/~ecep To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 23 17:44:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10753 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09901 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:24:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.96.18]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09896 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:24:51 -0500 (EST) From: jdevlin@oac.uoguelph.ca Received: from OACSRV.nw.uoguelph.ca (oacnet.nw.uoguelph.ca [131.104.224.6]) by ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00935 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:53:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911231753.MAA00935@ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca> Received: from OACSRV/SpoolDir by OACSRV.nw.uoguelph.ca (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 12:53:16 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by OACSRV (Mercury 1.44); 23 Nov 99 12:52:47 -0500 Organization: University of Guelph To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:52:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Radiation Resistant Bacteria From "Sterilized" Meat X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 446 On 19 Nov 99, at 22:07, mmiller@pcsia.com wrote about Deinococcus radiodurans which can survive high doses of radiation. As Mike said: "This is amazing and a tribute to the adapability of bacteria. 1,500,000 rads of gamma radiation can't kill this stuff. Sure hope it never shares plasmid dna for this trait with E coli and other types of bacteria found in the meat before the radiation treatment. " The problem of course is that in the hands of genetic researchers this genetic material will inevitably be sliced and diced into a variety of other organisms. This is precisely the hope of the authors of the original article. As the story title indicated RADIATION RESISTANT BACTERIA COULD ADVANCE MEDICINE, WASTE CLEANUPS "We anticipate a terrific boost for industrial and environmental microbiology," said TIGR president Claire Fraser. "D. radiodurans is readily manipulated in the lab, so new functions can be introduced into its genome. We foresee its use for novel industrial processes that most bacteria cannot survive." For those that thought the terminator gene was dangerous this should send shivers of terror down our spines. Transfers of the virtually indestructable characteristic into industrial biological applications would not be as open an exposure as would be created by the release of the terminator gene in seed. But the speed of replication would be measured in hours rather than years. This could give the concept of "superbug" a completely new scale of meaning. ------------------------------------------------- John F. Devlin, International Project Coordinator, School of Rural Planning and Development Room 110 Textiles Building, The University of Guelph Tel: 519-824-4120 Ext.3773 Fax: 519-821-9904 Visit the ECEP website: www.uoguelph.ca/~ecep To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 23 18:31:59 1999 -0500 Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11602 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA11904; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.rain.org (vhost.rain.org [198.68.144.50]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA11889 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-133.rain.org [198.68.144.133]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D464F1DD3C; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <000801bf360a$71d1a200$859044c6@rain.org> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:28:25 -0800 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Sal" To: , , "Bargyla Rateaver" Cc: Subject: Re: quote from Justus von Liebig References: <3839F45C.A0201071@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 447 Thank you for sharing that . Mr. Petric told me of this years ago but I never heard the whole quote. What a Revelation. you are great ! thank you for that piece of the puzzle.And now we know "the rest of the story". check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bargyla Rateaver" To: "Joel Brooks Gruver" Cc: Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Re: quote from Justus von Liebig > I am pleased to see yet another quote from that man, Liebig. > > All these years I have fought the lies about ion absorption. At the > university, Liebig is always cited as authority for all those lies. No one > ever admitted, no one ever told me, that at the end of his life, Liebig > recanted completely. He was sorry he had ever promoted that nonsensical, > ion-chemical fertilizer responsible fable--the worldwide spread falsehoods > that underlie all the world's data of NPK.. > > In my Organic Method Primer BASICS (a reduced version of my Primer UPDATE), I > copied the famous quote of Liebig, spoken before his death, that I had looked > for in vain, for a long time. > I copied it (with permission, of course) from the superduper, > prize-winning book by Wm Jackson: > "Humic, Fulvic and Microbial Balance: Organic Soil Conditioning." I don't > know how Dr. Jackson found it, since I had never been able to find it. > > So here is the famous admission from Liebig--- that he had spent his > professional life with a lying basis---- that has been the false foundation of > practically all the university type researches (catering to the chemical > companies) that so fondly embrace the.lies about ion absorption by plant > roots: > > And please note, that he finally admitted it was the Creator (JHVH), who > knew what He was doing. > > "I had sinned against the wisdom of our creator, and received just > punishment for it. I wanted to improve his handiwork, and in my blindness, I > believed that in this wonderful chain of laws, which ties life to the surface > of the earth and always keeps it rejuvenated, there might be a link missing > that had to be replaced by me--this weak, powerless nothing. > "The law, to which my reearch on the topsoil led me, states, 'On the outer > crust of the earth, under the influence of the sun, organic life shall > develop'. and so, the great master and builder gave the fragments of the earth > the ability to attract and hold all these elements necessary to feed plants > and further serve animals, like a magnet attracts and holds iron particles, so > as no piece be lost. Our master enclosed a second law unto this one, through > which the plant bearing earth becomes an enormous cleansing apparatus for the > water. Through this particular ability, the earth removes from the water all > substances harmful to humans and animals--all products of decay and > putrefaction, of perished plant and animal generations. > "What might justify my actions is the circumstance, that a man is the > product of his time, and he is only able to escape the commonly accepted views > if a violent pressure urges him to muster all his strength to struggle free of > these chains of error. The opinion, that plants draw their food from a > solution that is formed in the soil through rainwater, was everyone's belief. > It was engraved into my mind. This opinion was wrong and the source of my > foolish behavior. > "When a chemist makes a mistake in ratig agricultural fertilizers, don't > be too critical of his errors, because he has had to base his conclusions upon > facts which he can't know from his own experience, but rather, has to take > from agricultural texts as true and reliable. After I learned the reason why > my fertilizers weren't effective in the proper way, I was like a person that > received a new life. For along with that, all processes of tillage were now > explained as to their natural laws. Now that this principle is known and clear > to all eyes, the only thing thata remains is the astonishment of why it hadn't > been discovered a long time ago. The human spirit, however, is a strange > thing. Whatever doesn't fit inot the given circle of thinking, doesn't exist." > > ==================================================== > ==================================================== > Joel Brooks Gruver wrote: > > > Hello to all... > > > > While perusing a book titled > > Fauna in soil ecosystems: recycling processes, nutrient fluxes and > > agricultural production (edited by Gero Benckiser, Marcel Dekker, 1997, > > ISBN 0-8247-9786-8) I encountered a very interesting quote attributed to > > an individual somewhat infamous in sustainable ag circles. In 1855, Justus > > Von Liebig wrote: > > > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual and > > animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will > > be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade > > the farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist > > in nature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the > > farmer will forget the soil and lose sight of his inheent values and their > > influence." > > > > The original source of this quote is Liebig von, J. (1855) > > Die Grundsatze der Agriculturchemie mit Rucksicht auf die in England > > angestellten Untersuchungen. Braunschweig. > > > > Those are some interesting words to ponder in this age of biotech promises > > of "universal remedies"... > > > > Joel Gruver > > Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment > > Tufts University > > > > P.S. I have the original German if anyone is interested. > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 23 19:01:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12225 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA23918 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:43:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23878 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:43:03 -0500 (EST) From: Jjwarden@aol.com Received: from Jjwarden@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id 7.0.b2e427a7 (4505) for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:40:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.b2e427a7.256c7fdd@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:40:13 EST Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1450 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 38 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 448 Aracuana eggs sell for $5 a dozen at the Green market in NYC and are sold out rapidly (maybe they should raise the price) Jenny Warden To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 00:01:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16650 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:01:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24599 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:48:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24580 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:47:56 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:45:40 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991123223121.00852b70@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:31:21 -0600 To: Subject: Death Bed Recantion Report Caution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 Don't know anything about the argument you reference here but the death bed recanation tactic has been used before in earlier times. Remember, Voltaire was reported by his opponents to have recanted on his death bed as well. Very useful in the culture wars of the day esp. as he was not around to argue the point :>) Mike Miller >Subject: Re: quote from Justus von Liebig To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 00:30:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16956 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06591 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:09:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06572 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:09:43 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.66]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:07:28 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991123225307.008b7660@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:53:07 -0600 To: Subject: hunger strike finally reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 450 >From ENS at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/nov99/1999L-11-23-09.html. It is now 23 November so looks like monsanto was a happy camper for 2 weeks plus. The media is slow but sometimes it still gets there. Mike Miller HUNGER STRIKE SPOTLIGHTS HORMONE LACED MILK WASHINGTON, DC, November 23, 1999 (ENS) - Robert Cohen, author of "Milk, the Deadly Poison" has begun a hunger strike to protest the use of recombinant bovine growth hormone (rbGH) in U.S. dairy cows. The hormone, also known as bovine somatotropin and POSILAC, was approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for boosting milk production. Cohen says he has proof that rbGH, manufactured by Monsanto, raises the levels of a human growth hormone known as IGF-1. IGF-1 is suspected of being a key cause of rapid growth and proliferation of mammary, prostate and colon cancers. Cohen has sued the FDA to have the drug recalled. Cohen says laboratory animals treated with rbGH got cancer, that rbGH treated milk has increased levels of growth hormone, and that blood serum levels of milk hormones increase in milk drinkers. The FDA reviewed rbGH and concluded that the hormone produced no metabolic effect in humans and was not cause for concern. But Cohen says the FDA’s conclusion was based on the belief that rbGH would be destroyed by pasteurization and by digestion. In his lawsuit, Cohen challenges both of those principles. To promote his cause, Cohen began a hunger strike on the 7th of November that he says may last for months. I am prepared to give my life in this cause," Cohen says on his website (http://www.hungerstrike.com/strikes/index.html). >Kate Smith sent: > >> On November 7, 1999, Robert Cohen began a hunger strike to >draw >> attention to the fact that America's milk and dairy products >are now >> hazardous to consumers' health. Hundreds of people around the >world >> have already joined Robert Cohen on his hunger strike, and >there will be >> thousands more. > >Nov. 7 hmmm? Now it is Nov. 16. and this is the first I've heard about it. > No newspaper coverage, no TV, no news magazines, etc. Must either be a >vast conspiracy by the media, or Mr. Cohen greatly overestimated the >public's concern for his health. Hundreds more (maybe thousands) are >joining in? Uh huh, sure. > >No, I think Mr. Cohen (if he exists) would be much more useful in the fight >by some to bring our foodstuffs back to a more "natural" state if he joined >the several elegant speakers which I have enjoyed reading since joining >sanet (regardless of whether I always agree). I view people like Mr. Cohen >as I do the folks who hopped onto that comet last year - one less nut using >up air. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 00:51:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17225 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA21933 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:36:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21838 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.41] [199.175.107.42] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m11qV4Q-0006pGC for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:34:22 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:38:09 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1450 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 451 Any farmers who live near the sea know very well the benefits if seaweed for plants, for livestock, and for themselves. But we should keep this quiet because Novartis or Dupont or someone will likely patent it and we won't be able to gather it any longer. Don Maroc on the beach on Vancouver Island To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 01:07:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17576 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00443 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:54:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00383 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24151 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:51:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:49:51 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Terry J. Klokeid" Subject: Banning GMOs in Land Use Bylaw? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 452 Dear friends, Our rural community, Salt Spring Island, is in the process of revising its land use bylaw. (The island lies with the Islands Trust and its bylaws must conform to legislation governing the Trust area, as well as British Columbia and Canadian law, of course.) In my comments on the draft bylaw, I would like to suggest that genetically modifed organisms be banned -- in any way that is possible in such a bylaw. For example, since there are provisions that ban discharge of waste water that might contaminate fresh water sources, perhaps it might be possible to ban the use of GE seed, the pollen from which might contaminate the plants of other growers. I am hoping to find someone who can make concrete suggestions about what provisions might be put forward in this respect. (So far as I have been able to determine, the existing draft bylaw is not available except in print form from the Island Trust office in Ganges -- a document of over 100 pages. ) Thanks for any help, Terry Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm Fulford Harbour, British Columbia amblewood@mail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 03:12:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18626 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 03:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00545 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 02:43:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mb07.swip.net (mb07.swip.net [193.12.122.211]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA29818 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 02:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from d212-151-166-194.swipnet.se (d212-151-166-194.swipnet.se [212.151.166.194]) by mb07.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA06300 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:39:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by d212-151-166-194.swipnet.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BF3657.79423520@d212-151-166-194.swipnet.se>; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:39:51 +0100 Message-ID: <01BF3657.79423520@d212-151-166-194.swipnet.se> From: Jacky Foo To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: 2nd Call for Abstracts Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:37:34 +0100 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 453 Hello Everyone The 1st Call for Abstracts for the Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems, March-Oct 2000 (see http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa for scope, conference theme and other instructions) has received a good response so far; 10 abstracts have been approved and the rest are in the review process. I enclose the tentative list of the titles of papers which show the range of topics that the scope of the Conference covers. We are looking for another 20 abstract submissions and would like to invite you to consider making a presentation of your work in one of the 11 themes (see below). The deadline for the 2nd Call for Abstracts is 31 Dec. 1999. An abstract should not be more than 1 page in size and may contain text, table, diagrams. It should include the title of paper, full name(s) and postal and email address(es) of author(s), abstract and keywords. Please send your abstract(s) to foo@swipnet.se. All submitted abstracts will be reviewed by the Planning Group of the Conference. Authors should wait for formal notification of acceptance of the abstracts before proceeding into the preparation of the full paper(s). Registration: Registration to receive news and updates that is useful for your participation at the Conference is free. You can view news items on the web http://segate.sunet.se/archives/et-w11.html or receive them by email. To subscribe, use the LISTSERV subscription command : SUB ET-W11 yourfirstname yourlastname and send your subscription to listserv@segate.sunet.se ----- Mr. Eng-Leong "Jacky" Foo Co-ordinator, Integrated Bio-Systems Network http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/ibsnet Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems (2000) http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa (updated) +++ Tentative List of Papers (Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems, March-Oct 2000) P1 - Kefa V O Rabah (Kenya) : Application of Sugarcane Residues as Biofuel for Cogeneration of Electricity Kenya P2 - H.Losada, et al. (Mexico): Recycling of solid wastes in the east of Mexico City by livestock and agricultural production systems. P3 - Simon Appleby & E.L. Foo (Indonesia/Sweden): Integrated bio-system for a feedlot-abattoir-meat processing and research complex in Bali P4 - Li Kangmin & Wang Qiuhua (P R China). Nutrient flow analysis in digester fishpond IBS P5 - Song Xiangfu, Ying Huodong, Wu Weiming, Jin Qianyu, Zou Guoyan and Li Kangmin*. (P.R: China) Study on surface aquaponics in natural waters with nutrient flow analysis P6 - Christina Aristanti (Indonesia) : From wastes to employment and environment improvement opportunities. P7 - Amrit B. Karki and Upendra Gautam (Nepal): Community Latrine-cum-biogas plant at Ward No. 1 of Pathari VDC of Morang District of Nepal. P8 - Julian David Chara & Elkin Dario Pulido (Colombia): Material flow in "Pozo Verde" Integrated Farm in Cauca Valley Province, Colombia. P9 - D. Craig Sheppard & G. Larry Newton (USA): Black Soldier Fly Larvae Produce High Quality Feedstuff from Manure P10 - Anna Hedlund (Sweden) : A theoretical integrated nutrient flow on a farm with three sub-systems in a village in Southern Vietnam P11 - Sudhira H.S. & Ann Jacob (India): Reutilisation of byproducts of coir industry : A Case Study. P12 - Paul Adler (USA) : Phytoremediation of aquaculture effluents with lettuce and basil. P13 - D K Saxena (India) : Metal Pollution in river Ra Ganga and its recovery through aquatic plant P14 - Jagannath Venkataramaih (India): Scales of Operations on Community Based Solid Wastes Management in India P15 - Jean-Pierre Bayala (Belgium) : Village-based integrated waste water treatment system at Women's Association of Song Taaba, Burkina Faso. P16 - Nguyen Van Trung (Vietnam) : Fertiliser value in biogas technology systems in Vietnam P17 - Mark J. Brotman (USA): Recovery and Utilization of By-Products from Greenhouse Operations with respect to Recirculating Aquaculture, Hydroponic and Mushroom Cultivation Systems ++++ Scope of Conference The central focus of the Internet Conference is on the analysis of material flows in integrated bio-systems. The scope includes 11 themes : 1) Municipal Biodegradable Solid Recycling and Conversion Systems MFA of systems that includes recycling and conversion of biodegradables, food scraps, yard trimmings and greens into bio-fuels, organic fertiliser, animal feed, biochemicals, etc. using biological sub-systems such as anaerobic digestion, composting, vermi-culture, etc.. New methods, alternative natural systems for control or remediation to avoid the need for landfills, conventional wastewater plants, etc. 2) Wastewater Treatment and Utilisation Systems MFA of systems using plants, microbes, algae, shellfish in wastewater treatment and use of wastewaters in crop irrigation, aquaculture, wetlands, forests, etc. crop-aquaculture, livestock-aquaculture systems, integrated aquaculture/polyculture systems, etc.. 3) Integrated Aquaculture Systems MFA of aquatic food production systems such as integrated aquaculture/polyculture systems, fish-shellfish-seaweed systems, aquaculture-terrestrial integrated bio-systems, silvifisheries, fish ranching, etc. 4) Small Scale Farming Systems MFA of household bio-systems with sub-systems like livestock, biogas digesters, fish ponds, compost, vermicompost, vegetable gardens and crops plots, fruit trees, aquatic plants, etc. 5) Large Plantations, Farms and Feedlots MFA of corporate and cooperative agricultural systems using of agro-crop residues and livestock manure for production of feed, food, fibre, chemicals, energy, etc. 6) Constructed Building Complex, greenhouse and Eco-house Systems MFA of bio-systems in/on buildings for waste water treatment, food production, hydroponics, aquaponics; waste recycling or using animals and compost to heat greenhouses, etc. 7) Industry and Eco-Industrial Parks MFA of bio-systems for cleaner production, industries and industrial parks to utilise primary by-product wastes for biochemicals, food and energy production in co-operative implmentation of shared systems for complementary recovery and use. 8) Resource Utilization and Conservation in Sustainable Natural Eco-Systems MFA of bio-systems for sustainable resource utilisation e.g. in watersheds, reservoirs, lakes, river basins, community forests, natural parks, coral reefs, mangroves, etc.. 9) Small Islands, Community, Villages and Cities MFA of IBSs for sustainable living in human communities for urban ecology, urban agriculture and environmental management; 10) Global Issues related to Food Security, Environment and Climate Change e.g. regional studies (national, regional and global) where integrated bio-systems are used to play crucial roles to sustain food security, zero wastes and zero wastewater discharge; and reduction of greenhouse gases. 11) Tools and Methodology for Design and Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems. e.g. softwares and methods for material flow analysis showing how it is applied to an example(s) in an integrated bio-systems --end To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 11:41:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24578 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28562 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28503 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23867 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23695 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Do wood ashes increase nitrogen fixation? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 454 Dan Hemenway wrote: "Wood ash contains valuable trace minerals and I use it under inoculated legumes to feed the rhizobia that fix nitrogen in the roots of the legume crop. You will get a huge increase in N fixation if you do this." Is this true? Would you get the same effects with rock powders, compost and seaweed or is there something special about wood ashes that make rhizobia fix more nitrogen? Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 12:33:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25621 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28336 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:17:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28289 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:21:26 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.149] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD5EA6001D0; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:16:14 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:14:23 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Do wood ashes increase nitrogen fixation? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 455 On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:23 -0500 (EST), Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > >Dan Hemenway wrote: > >"Wood ash contains valuable trace minerals and I use it under inoculated >legumes to feed the rhizobia that fix nitrogen in the roots of the legume >crop. You will get a huge increase in N fixation if you do this." > >Is this true? Would you get the same effects with rock powders, compost >and seaweed or is there something special about wood ashes that make >rhizobia fix more nitrogen? Partially true. The major mineral co-factor in rhizobial nitrogen fixation is molybdenum. Vanadium is also tangentially involved. Most wood does not contain a lot of moly --- eucalyptus being a notable exception. The best rock powder source (by far) is phosphate rock, particularly some of the phosphates from the southeastern US. You can also purchase (at a very reasonable price) sodium molybdate inoculants (Urbana in St. Joseph, Missouri is one source) to mix with the rhizobia at seed planting. Properly used, molybdenum will release more energy, kilo for kilo, than uranium (increased N-fixation, leading to increased yields, leading to increased capture of solar energy). Best bargain in agriculture, and almost nobody uses it. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 12:54:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26102 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06278 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:29:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06274 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28012 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ER74QH2C; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:24:49 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:07:33 -0700 Subject: re: Food nutrition and soil regeneration Message-ID: <19991124.100800.3518.3.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5,14-17,19-23,25,27,29-30,32,34-35,37,39-40,42, 44-45,47,49-50,52,54-58 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 Thanks to Chris Alenson for his mineral analysis of supermarket vs. organically grown vegetables. It's quite an impressive comparison even if I would have liked to also see results for vegetables grown with varying soil conditioning (maybe a treatment with minimal organic amendments). How about some follow up experiments from some of you folks who have access to university facilities? I'm especially interested with the calcuim and magnesium numbers because I have a family history of osteoporosis, am sensitive to dairy products, and can't tolerate most supplements. Too bad the sodium content went up in the organic along with other minerals, considering how many people worry about keeping their diet low in sodium. (OTH, maybe the organic vegetables are palatable with less added salt--this suggests another experiment.) I'm curious why the tests for sodium and iron seemed less sensitive for the organic than the supermarket samples. Were the organic samples smaller? --Best regards, Edna on Tue, 16 Nov 1999 Chris Alenson wrote: We hope this limited study will stimulate further research. Results are below: beans tomatoes capsicum silver beet calcium S 40 6.7 4.7 6 O 480 67 84 1600 potassium S 260 200 150 450 O 1900 300 1600 2600 magnesium S 26 10 11 69 O 240 89 700 1700 sodium S <1 2.4 <1 180 O <10 26 20 1800 iron S .6 <.5 <.5 1.4 O <5 <5 <5 9.4 zinc S .38 .19 .13 .57 O 3.4 1.2 2.5 130 mg/kg S-supermarket produce O-organic/revitalised soil ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 13:41:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26990 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28916 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:12:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28873 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [144.92.244.229] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id MAA81422 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:10:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991124120827.006ecd44@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:08:27 -0600 To: citnet-list@citnet.org, ecomda@danenet.wicip.org, fhking@studentorg.wisc.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Michelle M. Miller" Subject: WTO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 457 FYI - m3 Dear friends of United For a Fair Economy, >From November 29 to December 3, 1999, leaders of transnational corporations, governments, and an army of bureaucrats wil descend upon Seattle, Washington for the summit meeting of the World Trade Organization (WTO). Also in Seattle, tens of thousands of activists will be protesting their drive for profits at the expense of equality, community, democracy, and the environment. ... And so will UFE! JOIN UFE IN SEATTLE!! We are bringing our whole program of workshops and performances to Seattle, November 28 through December 3. If you are going to be there, JOIN US and help lead workshops, leaflet, photograph our performances, and maybe even perform. If you AREN'T going to Seattle join one of the anti-WTO support demonstrations or call-in days taking place around the country on the peak protest day, November 30 (December 1 in Boston). Check item #1, for a list of cities and contact information for demonstrations in your area. For more information: *check our website http://www.stw.org/html/ufe_at_the_wto.html *www.seattle99.org Or contact us by phone: *UFE East, 617-423-2148 *UFE West, 206-261-0012 (our temporary office in Seattle at the Musicians Union, 2620 Third Avenue, corner of Cedar) More information follows on: 1. Support demonstrations across the country 2. Overall plan for UFE in Seattle 3. UFE Workshop schedule in Seattle 4. UFE Performance schedule in Seattle ***************** 1. SUPPORT DEMONSTRATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY (partial list) Atlanta Anaheim Boston (December 1; contact UFE, 617-423-2148) Chicago Eugene Fort Worth Houston Kalamazoo Memphis New York City Nevada City Philadelphia (contact Leon Oboler, ) Portland San Antonio San Diego ... not to mention Prague, Cairo, Berlin, Paris and in Australia, India, Finland, Bangladesh, Nepal... For info about protest rallies in your city, check www.seattle99.org- this website lists events in Seattle, demonstrations elsewhere, and call-in days that people are organizing across the country. ***************** 2. OVERALL PLAN FOR UFE IN SEATTLE Our purpose in Seattle is to give tens of thousands of activists TOOLS THEY CAN TAKE HOME and use to organize after the big protest. To reach them, we are: *performing at teach-ins, marches, and rallies all over town. *leafleting after those performances to tell people where our office is and when we are giving workshops. *giving two workshops a day so people can see our popular education methods... and buy workshop kits to take home. So we need: -leafleters, leafleters, leafleters! especially Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. We will form a Leafleting Team and Affinity Group on Monday, 9-10 am at the office. (You can join later.) -workshop leaders and co-leaders, especially Wednesday through Friday. -photographers with good cameras to shoot the theater troupe each day. -more performers, at least for our busiest days, Tuesday and Wednesday. -volunteers to cover reception at our office. Please contact us ASAP if you can help with any of these. *********************** 3. UFE WORKSHOP SCHEDULE IN SEATTLE SUNDAY 10-noon: Workshop, "Growing Divide." 3-5 pm: Workshop, "WTO for Beginners." 2:30 and 3:15 pm: Leafleters would be useful at creative action performances -- see schedule below. MONDAY 9-10 am: Meeting for Monday-Tuesday leafleting team /Affinity Group at UFE office. 10-noon: Workshop, "Media Skills." Noon, 4:30, and 7:50: **Full team of leafleters needed for three of our biggest creative action performances.** 2-4 pm: book-signing and conversation with Charles Derber, author of "Corporation Nation," at UFE office. TUESDAY Important: start early for your morning commute downtown. Transportation will be unreliable and downtown will be completely blocked off due to shut-down-the-WTO direct actions and police jitters. 8-10 am: meet at the office, then walk to Memorial Stadium in Seattle Center (enter at Main Gates at 5th Avenue North). Important: people who want to be in the labor march have to go to the Stadium first. Streets will be blocked and barricaded and no one will be allowed to join the march along the route, say the police. So you have to make a choice. a. Stay outside the march for the day, checking out the street blockings, banner-hangings, and other direct actions around the Convention Center -- with some risk of arrest or hassle. OR b. Rendezvous at the Stadium and perform in the march. We will need: *a Globerotters performing team of 3 or 4, which we hope will get a featured spot, *a leafleting team to accompany the Globerotters and hand out our contact cards, and *if we have enough people, a Billionaires for Bush team, which will simply run around with a B4B banner and pass out flyers (so people from across the country get the concept and take it back home) The rally runs from 10 to 12:30 (Sweet Honey in the Rock, etc). Then there's a March on the WTO 12:30 to 3. *Leafleters also needed: 1) to cover our table at the Labor Rights and Living Standards teach-in at United Methodist Church, 8:30 am to noon. 2) possibly to accompany the troupe at a 4-7 pm Steelworkers Coffeehouse at Mercer Arena.* WEDNESDAY 8-9 am, noon, 2:30, evening: *Full leafleting team needed for our busiest performing day. Leafleters also needed to cover our table at the all-day teach-in on Women, Sovereignty, and Development at the United Methodist Church., 8:30-5:30 pm.* 10-noon: Workshop, "Creative Actions" 3-5 pm: Workshop, "Media Skills" THURSDAY 10-noon: Workshop, "WTO for Beginners" Noon: *Leafleters needed for rally at Pike Street Market. 3-5 pm: Workshop, "Growing Divide" FRIDAY 10-noon: Workshop, "Creative Actions" 3-5 pm: Workshop, "WTO for Beginners" **************** 4. UFE SCHEDULE FOR PERFORMANCES IN SEATTLE SATURDAY 3-5 pm: Troupe's first rehearsal at IBEW Hall, 2700 First Avenue, corner Broad. SUNDAY 1-2 pm: Troupe warms up at the IBEW Hall. 3:15 pm: Troupe performs at AFD's "Alternatives to the WTO" forum at the Labor Temple -- DEFINITE. 2:30 pm: Troupe performs at "WTO and the Global War System" teach-in, which I think is at the United Methodist Church (8th Ave and University)-- LIKELY. *Leafleters would be useful at all these venues.* MONDAY 10-11:30: Troupe rehearses at the IBEW Hall. Noon: Troupe performs at the Seattle Tea Party rally at the Conventionn Center (12:30), or in the march there from the United Methodist Church (noon) -- LIKELY. 4:30-6:30 pm: Troupe performs outside the Jubilee 2000 service at the Methodist Church, 811 Fifth Ave (x Columbia Street), and maybe in the march from there to the Seattle Exhibition Center, S. Royal Brougham Street (NOT the Convention Center) to form a human chain around the WTO -- LIKELY. 7:50: Troupe opens the show at the Peoples Gala at the Seattle Arena -- LIKELY. *Big leafleting team needed all day, especially for the Gala.* TUESDAY We need two performing teams of 3-4 people for the labor march: *a Globerotters performing team of 3 or 4 (stiltwalking training required, probably Monday morning), and *a Billionaires for Bush team which will simply run around with a B4B banner and pass out flyers (so people from across the country get the concept and take it back home) -- no performing talent required. WEDNESDAY 8-9 am: Globerotters perform outside the No Patents on Life/Food Safety teach-in at Plymouth Congregational Church -- DEFINITE. 10:30: Hightower Radio tapes the Drill Team for a broadcast from the Methodist Church-- DEFINITE Noon: Drill Team performs outside Food Safety teach-in -- DEFINITE. Noon: Globerotters performing in march from morning women's forum at United Methodist Church to women's protest rally at Freeway Park, 6th-9th Ave and University Street (Convention Center) -- DEFINITE. Then: Limbo at the women's rally -- DEFINITE. Mid-afternoon: possible performance at Selling the Story Back on Your Campus workshop, time and place TBA -- MAYBE. 2:30 pm: possible role in the Steelworkers Tea Party on the piers -- MAYBE. 7:30-11 or 12 pm: performing all our pieces between acts at the Methodist Church. This is an evening of politics and art organized by the brand-new Alliance for Sustainable Jobs and the Environment, 200 labor unions and environmental organizations. We're sharing the stage with Human Nature, an environmental dance/theater troupe from northern California. *Big leafleting team needed all day.* THURSDAY Noon: Drill Team or Billionaires performing at Food and Agriculture rally/press conference, Pike Street Market -- MAYBE. ****************** 4.5 IMPORTANT ADDRESSES IN SEATTLE *UFE office, 2620 Third Ave, corner of Cedar Street. (Workshops there) *IBEW Hall, 2700 First Ave, corner of Broad Street. (Rehearsals there) *First United Methodist Church, 811 Fifth Ave, corner of Columbia Street. (Many teach-ins there) *Labor Temple, 2800 First Ave. (Sunday's Alternatives forum there) *Seattle Convention Center, 7th-9th Ave and Pike Street. (WTO summit meeting site and daily noon protest target) *Memorial Stadium, Seattle Center, 5th Avenue. (Tuesday's rally and march) *Bus station, 811 Stewart Street, between 8th and 9th Ave. Public bus information: 206-553-3000 or transit.metrokc.gov/bus.html ************* United for a Fair Economy 37 Temple Place, 2nd Floor Boston, MA 02111 TEL (617) 423-2148 FAX (617) 423-0191 e-mail: stw@stw.org web: http://www.stw.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 15:06:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28369 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03258 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03243 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27686; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26785; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Bluestem Associates cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Do wood ashes increase nitrogen fixation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Bluestem Associates wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:23 -0500 (EST), Lawrence F. London, Jr. > wrote: > >Dan Hemenway wrote: > > > >"Wood ash contains valuable trace minerals and I use it under inoculated > >legumes to feed the rhizobia that fix nitrogen in the roots of the legume > >crop. You will get a huge increase in N fixation if you do this." > > > >Is this true? Would you get the same effects with rock powders, compost > >and seaweed or is there something special about wood ashes that make > >rhizobia fix more nitrogen? > > Partially true. The major mineral co-factor in rhizobial nitrogen > fixation is molybdenum. Vanadium is also tangentially involved. Most > wood does not contain a lot of moly --- eucalyptus being a notable > exception. > > The best rock powder source (by far) is phosphate rock, particularly > some of the phosphates from the southeastern US. The black rock phosphate from coastal North Carolina is the best and releases plant-available phosphate quicker than the Florida RP, Idaho black RP, or some other source located, I think, in Tennessee. PCS Mining, Saskatchewan, Ca. owns the plant in NC and a few plants in Florida and one in Virginia (this one makes specially treated RP for livestock feed, which I hear isn't especially good for crops as it releases slowly, like the Florida RP). Commonly referred to as "Carolina Black Rock Phosphate" this mined product is rated at the top of the list. It is black in color and is shipped out, with minimal processing, in exactly the condition it is in when excavated, as a fine sand. PCS used to grind it to a powder but found that that did not speed release of phosphate but did add significantly to handling problems at the mine (spilling out of the trucks hauling it at the plant). This is a very fine product. I hope to buy a dump trailer load of it next year to put on my market gardens. It does not leach into rainwater or into the soil so can be stored without cover (other than a tarp to keep if from blowing away in the wind) outside for convenient loading. It does not cake up when moistened as powdered or pebble phosphate rock products do. > You can also purchase (at a very reasonable price) sodium molybdate > inoculants (Urbana in St. Joseph, Missouri is one source) to mix with > the rhizobia at seed planting. Thanks for this information. > Properly used, molybdenum will release more energy, kilo for kilo, than > uranium (increased N-fixation, leading to increased yields, leading to > increased capture of solar energy). Best bargain in agriculture, and > almost nobody uses it. Fascinating. Thanks for the update, Bart. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 15:36:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29049 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28370 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:03:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28359 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:07:06 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.156] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A431282801D0; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:01:53 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:00:04 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Phosphate rock Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 459 On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:26 -0500 (EST), Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: >Black Rock Phosphate" this mined product is rated at the top of the list. >It is black in color and is shipped out, with minimal processing, in >exactly the condition it is in when excavated, as a fine sand. PCS used to >grind it to a powder but found that that did not speed release The primary factor in the 'release' of rock phosphates is the amount of carbonate they contain as a structural substitution in the non-phosphate anionic section of the apatite-group minerals comprising most of the rock. The more carbonate, the more easily available. Moroccan phosphates (the best in the world) often contain 5% carbonate (or even more), making them readily available in acid soils. Hard-rock phosphates are typically tricalcium phosphates with no carbonate, and as a result they take just about forever to release. Text-based systems aren't very good for chemical formulae, but if you take all numbers as chemical subscripts the following is the general formula for generic apatites. Ca2Ca3[PO4]3(OH,F,CO3) is the simple version. For you real keeners out there, the more detailed formula is for an apatite-group mineral called francolite, itself a common component of many of the best phosphate rocks. Ca4Ca6[PO4]6-x(CO3)x(F,OH)2+x Phosphate mineralogy is an absolute blast, and if anyone wants more information they should contact me off list. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 17:16:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01194 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03008 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:55:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02996 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (248.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.62]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA06689 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:53:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911242153.PAA06689@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: FYI Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:56:31 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 460 DECEMBER 1999 Adding Value through Environmental Marketing: Opportunities for Food Producers, Processors, and Retailers Madison, Wisconsin December 6-7 Production, marketing, and distributing field crops, meat and dairy products. Contact the IPM Institute of North America, 1914 Rowley Ave., Madison, Wisconsin, 53705; call (608) 232-1528; or fax (608) 232-1530. E-mail See the web at To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 17:32:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01487 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15228 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:17:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from fw1.phibred.com (firewall-user@fw1.phibred.com [204.233.143.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15177 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by fw1.phibred.com; id QAA03142; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:15:03 -0600 Received: from orion.phibred.com(170.54.241.13) by fw1.phibred.com via smap (V4.2) id xmaa02946; Wed, 24 Nov 99 16:14:55 -0600 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:14:55 -0600 Message-ID: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0034@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Phil & Deb Batalden'" Cc: Sanet Subject: RE: Seed Companies Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:14:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 Phil, > The talk around here in the farmer circle is how years back > when pioneer had high yeilding and heavy test weight seedcorn > and the competitors did not, the competitors bought some pioneer > seed and raised seed from the pioneer seed to get the same > results from their seed. They knew they could get away with > it until dna testing came along. Now there are lawsuits going > on between the companies, over the pvp rights, but those same > seed companies who pirated the seed from pioneer are using the > pvp to sue farmers who plant seed kept from their crop. Any > one else heard anything about this? Mainly this is about the practice of "chasing selfs." Competitors buy a bag of seed, plant it or germinate in towels, and select and self only the small plants. Often the small plants turn out to be selfed progeny of the seed-parent. Using these captured lines as your own is clearly unethical IMO, although Monsanto is claiming in court that it is legal. Other lines were stolen more brazenly by sneaking into fields, or by employees pocketing inbred seed before taking a job with the competition. All this can now be proven in court. I don't think any of the companies care if you propagate seed borne on hybrid plants (corn, sunflower, sorghum, etc). It won't breed true. The main issue is propagation of pure lines, either incidental selfs in hybrids, or self-pollinated crops (wheat, beans, soybeans, etc.). Although, most varieties of self-pollinated crops (NOT RR!) can be legally propagated for the farmers own use. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Nov 24 15:18:01 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28553 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25048 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:52:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta003.topica.com (outmta.topica.com [206.132.75.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25037 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:52:29 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Resource Pointer #227 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:50:06 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.1918397626-212058698-943473006@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 462 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Resource Pointer #227 November 24, 1999 For copies of the following resources, please contact the appropriate publishers or organizations directly. *Essential Action Website: Bhopal* http://www.essentialaction.org/bhopal Provides information associated with campaign focusing on 15th anniversary of Union Carbide Bhopal disaster, December 2-3, 1999. Includes in-depth account of Bhopal disaster and aftermath; letter to Union Carbide shareholders; information on ways to get involved; and information on No More Bhopals Conference, to be held in England, December 4-5, 1999. Also includes Bhopal Action Kit, available in PDF format. Contact Essential Action, P.O. Box 19405, Washington, DC; phone (202) 387-8030; email action@essential.org *Bhopal Action Kit* http://www.essentialaction.org/bhopal/kit.html Kit designed to help activists develop Bhopal-related campaigns. Includes letter to activists from Bhopal survivors; sample flyers and graphics; list of online resources; and guidelines for presenting information and viewpoints to media. Also includes information on university divestment from corporations violating human rights; essay on Bhopal and globalization; and pointers on how to become involved. Contact Essential Action, P.O. Box 19405, Washington, DC; phone (202) 387-8030; email action@essential.org *Corporate Watch Website: Bhopal* http://www.corpwatch.org/bhopal/ Provides overview of current conditions in Bhopal; photographs of abandoned Union Carbide Factory in Bhopal; "Bhopal: Setting the Record Straight," text of a conversation with former Managing Director of Union Carbide India; report from International Medical Commission on Bhopal; and more. Also features India and Globalization page, with in-depth articles on Bhopal disaster and legacy plus fact sheet on Bhopal. Contact Corporate Watch, P.O. Box 29344, San Francisco, CA 94129; phone (415) 561-6568; fax (415) 561-6493; email corpwatch@corpwatch.org *The Bhopal Gas Tragedy: 1984-1998* Annual Report of Bhopal People's Health and Documentation Clinic. Presents work of Sambhavna Clinic in Bhopal to care for Bhopal disaster survivors. Includes sections on yoga and massage therapy for survivors; "verbal autopsy" technique of gathering mortality information; illnesses observed among survivors; medicines provided; and more. Includes profiles of Bhopal survivors as well as of professionals and volunteers working with survivors. Appendix provides tabulated data on survivors' health profiles. 121pp. US$10. Contact Bhopal People's Health and Documentation Clinic, 44, Sant Kanwar Ram Nagar, Berasia Road, Bhopal 462 001, India; phone (91-755) 730914; email sathyu99@hotmail.com; or Bhopal Action Resource Centre, 777 UN Plaza, Suite 3C, New York, NY 10017; phone (212) 972-9878 *Bhopal: Union Carbide Website* http://www.bhopal.com Presents Union Carbide's position on Bhopal disaster. Argues toxic gas release was caused by "disgruntled employee." Claims Union Carbide has fulfilled all obligations to victims, and suggests chronic health effects among survivors have been minimal. We encourage those interested in having resources listed in the PANUPS Resource Pointer to send review copies of publications, videos or other resources to our office. =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ What's hot at Topica? Sign up for our "Best New Lists" newsletter and find out! http://www.topica.com/t/8 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 17:50:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01695 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20406 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:27:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20306 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (248.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.62]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA11800; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:24:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911242224.QAA11800@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Cc: Subject: RE: IPM Awards Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:27:53 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 463 Very refreshing to see a reality based awards program for farmers and companies that are making realistic strides toward significant chemical use reduction or even elimination without sacrificing the ability to produce the quantities and quality needed by the consuming public. Their approaches, while not all considered acceptable to the SAR purists, are successfully working towards the goals of a safe, nutritious, plentiful, and economical food and fiber supply. Kudos. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 19:51:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03441 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07403 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:35:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07333 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (208-58-211-97.s97.tnt1.lnhdc.md.dialup.rcn.com [208.58.211.97]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id TAA25650; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:32:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383C83B6.ADC3DCA6@erols.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:33:06 -0500 From: david X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bargyla Rateaver CC: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Wm. Jackson's prize-winning book Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 Can't find Jackson's prize-winning book. Would you happen to have bibliographic info? Would you have Jackson's source for Justus von Liebig's 'deathbed' quote? Thanks, David Hall To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 20:03:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03531 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12358 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:44:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from thehub.knight-hub.com (root@thehub.knight-hub.com [205.177.16.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12347 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (dialas-128.knight-hub.com [205.252.164.128]) by thehub.knight-hub.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07718 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:42:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:42:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199911250042.TAA07718@thehub.knight-hub.com> X-Sender: auburn@knight-hub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Walt and Jill Auburn Subject: watch PBS NewsHour tonight! Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 Just saw an EXCELLENT piece on PBS's NewsHour, about 25 min past the hour here on WETA in DC, by Spencer Michaels in S.F. Bay Area featuring Alice Waters of Chez Panisse, beautifully describing the benefits of buying/cooking/eating locally grown, "mostly organic" produce. Followed by an interesting discussion by food writers and a chef about related trends today. Take time from your preparations for tomorrow's feasts & family to watch this program! And while I'm at it, I give thanks to the people who grow our food and the folks all over the country and the world who are working to connect us all together. Jill Auburn To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 20:05:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03570 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA16920 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:52:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16802 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (302.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.116]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA06996 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:50:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911250050.SAA06996@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: WTO Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:53:19 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 466 Michelle Miller wrote: >From November 29 to December 3, 1999, leaders of transnational corporations, governments, and an army of bureaucrats wil descend upon Seattle, Washington for the summit meeting of the World Trade Organization (WTO). Also in Seattle, tens of thousands of activists will be protesting their drive for profits at the expense of equality, community, democracy, and the environment. ... And so will UFE! JOIN UFE IN SEATTLE!! Tens of thousands ? I'll be checking the nightly news. That kind of a demonstration is sure to get noticed by the national media. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 20:08:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03597 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21840 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:59:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21824 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (302.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.116]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA08110 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:56:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911250056.SAA08110@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: Re: Hunger strike finally reported Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:59:53 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 467 Mike: I don't doubt that the news release that you posted is genuine, but I haven't seen it in my newspaper (no surprise - small city paper), nor in my news magazine (U.S. News & World Report), nor on the nightly news (national or regional). Now, I don't get to watch the news every night, so I might have missed it. On the other hand, if the hundreds (soon to be thousands) of other protesters also go on a hunger strike, I bet that'll get the national media out of bed. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 20:53:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03972 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14464 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:38:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14412 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11qnpS-00007e-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 02:36:10 +0100 Message-ID: <383C97AB.798735E6@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 02:58:03 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: WTO: THIS IS HOW WE WILL LIE TO YOU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F68572775D797897F62DC43C" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 468 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F68572775D797897F62DC43C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------F68572775D797897F62DC43C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.a2000.nl ([192.168.17.20]) by hardy-1.a2000.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA518; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:06:40 +0100 Received: from node11d52.a2000.nl ([24.132.29.82] helo=boven) by smtp2.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11qMBl-0006Xo-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:05:21 +0100 From: "mai niet gezien" To: "recipients of mai-lijst" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:05:07 +0100 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: THIS IS HOW WE WILL LIE TO YOU (the big media about Reply-to: mailijst@dds.nl Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Message-Id: To: mailijst@dds.nl Subject: Re: THIS IS HOW WE WILL LIE TO YOU (the big media about the WTO) From: kees@stad.xs4all.nl (kees/ventana) Date sent: Tue, 23 Nov 99 17:48:12 GMT THIS IS HOW WE WILL LIE TO YOU --by the editorial staff at the big dailies-- The World Trade Organization is a complicated topic, and both the talks being held and the variety of protests confronting it are far too complicated for the feeble minds of our readers to fully comprehend. We would never want to inconvenience our readers by giving them information that is complex or contrary to the opinions we've already fed you. Therefore, we're going to lie our fool tushies off during our WTO coverage. Here's how: -- On the WTO Itself: * We will repeatedly tell you, as WTO proponents do, that world trade means jobs, and that Washington state in particular depends on world trade. The implication, sometimes explicit, is that anti-WTO activists oppose world trade, which is untrue. They generally oppose the specific mechanisms--i.e., unfettered capitalism--by which the WTO governs world trade. There are many other possible ways to arrange for world trade and a globalized economy, but we won't tell you that. We also won't tell you that while trade creates jobs, the neoliberal policies of the WTO, on average, force down the wages and standards of jobs in both developed couuntries and developing ones. Behemoths like Microsoft and Boeing can outsource work to India or Mexico (respectively), where workers are paid far less than in Seattle. Eventually, wages and benefits in Seattle will have to drop to "compete. * We'll tell you that the primary beneficiaries of unfettered trade are regular folks like you and me. Not hardly. Workers at Boeing may owe their jobs to trade, and family farms may export their wares. But Boeing itself, or huge agribusiness concerns, benefit far more from free trade. In fact, policies of the WTO are part of what's driving small farmers out of business; and as mentioned above, Boeing workers can lose their jobs to cheaper overseas help. Free trade is designed to help the huge transnational corporations that can move resources around the globe at the drop of a hat. Whether it helps, or, more likely, hurts the average citizen is strictly incidental. * The Clinton Administration cares about jobs, the environment, and labor. This is a lie told by government officials, which we will repeat uncritically. In fact, Clinton is a prime architect of the WTO, and his administration has overseen one of the greatest Wall Street booms in history- -and one of the greatest increases in the gap between incomes of the wealthy and those of average citizens. The donations of these huge corporations are what keep Clinton and Gore or Bush in office. Their policies have been a relentless sellout of the environment to huge corporations, and favoritism to those corporations over the interests of labor. They don't care about you. They think you're just so many sheep to be manipulated. We help. * In discussing the WTO, we will focus solely on how it helps or hurts America, and ignore the rest of the world, especially developing countries. If developing countries are mentioned, we will equate the interests of a few elites with those of the country as a whole. This gives an incredibly distorted view of the true damage caused by WTO policies. We will uncritically repeat the myth that these countries are better off with the jobs provided by transnational corporations, ignoring other means of developing economies that might not remove so many resources and so much capital from these countries, and might promote greater democracy and better standards of living. * We will repeat the accusations that WTO critics have not done their homework, without giving them any forums to display their understanding of the issues; that WTO critics are solely oppositional, without airing any of their positive proposals for promoting fairer trade; and that WTO critics are marginal members of society, without listing their mainstream supporters. -- On the Protests: * You can safely take any estimate we publish of demonstration crowd sizes and multiply them by ten to arrive at a truer estimate of size. Actually, the exact multiplier is nine: first, police will reduce their estimate by a factor of three, and then we will reduce the police estimate by a further factor of three. This is to make you feel safer. It's for your own good. * We won't lie about student walk-outs, worker sick-ins, or other efforts by ordinary workers and students to shut down Seattle as part of this protest. We'll just ignore them. They're just too difficult to quantify. * Any "violence" that erupts will be the responsibility of the demonstators. We will ignore the "nonviolent" horses, batons, mace, pepper spray, rubber bullets, and guns brought by security forces. That's crowd control, not violence. * We will rely almost exclusively on "official" sources--WTO organizers, the police, elected officials, and other government employees. This isn't a lie, exactly. We'll simply report their spin on the facts as the objective truth, and not report any other spin or try to synthesize competing versions of events. This will give WTO advocates the most positive possible light. * We will marginalize demonstators wherever possible. Photos will show the most outrageous costumes, emphasizing that these are not normal people. Organizers are "paid organizers," although the Seattle Host Organization paid people, too. Foreign demonstrators will become "outside agitators." If necessary, we will redbait. * We will emphasize conflict, property destruction, violence, and hostility. The 99% of peaceful, nonviolent demonstrator are boring. They are also much too responsible. * Wherever possible we will refer to anti-WTO activists as anti-trade rather than "fair trade" proponents. This makes them seem less reasonable. * We will focus a lot on the inconvenience of demonstrations to commuters and other "ordinary citizens," as though the protesters were not ordinary and as though Seattle gridlock was not ordinary, either. This also implies that traffic reports are of equal importance to global trade issues. * Conversely, we will NOT report the impact on Seattle's homeless of WTO organizing--namely, loss of motel and shelter space, street sweeps, and crackdowns on tent cities and other attempts at visibility. We would never ignore these demonstrations. It's too big and too exciting a story. But we will make a point wherever possible to lie so as to deny their credibility. After all, if protesters are correct and free trade is a threat to the world's environment, standard of living, and democracy, then we must be called upon to act. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Now go check out the comics. How 'bout those Seahawks? --ETS! News Service EAT THE STATE! P.O. Box 85541 Seattle WA 98145 USA 206-903-9461 ets@scn.org http://EatTheState.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * INFO * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * eat-the-state@scn.org is the mailing list for distribution of "Eat The State!", the e-mail version of the periodical. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send your request to majordomo@scn.org. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dit bericht kwam via de MAIlijst, die dient als medium voor de internationale Anti-WTO campagne. ----------------------------------------------------------- + Wil je zelf op de lijst, iets toevoegen of er vanaf: Stuur je berichtje op naar: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kijk voor meer informatie op internet: http://www.stelling.nl/wto Daar vind je een nieuws-archief met zoekmachine --------------------------------------------------------------- Wil je regelmatig actuele nederlandstalige informatie ontvangen van de WTO-NED lijst, stuur dan een aanvraag naar: annes@milieudefensie.nl +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --------------F68572775D797897F62DC43C-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 24 22:54:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05640 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21179 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:30:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21156 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:30:54 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.73]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:28:32 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991124211406.00853c40@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:14:06 -0600 To: Subject: Smelter Toxics Served at Dinner via Crop Fertilizers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 469 Below is part of the article from the ENS at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/nov99/1999L-11-24-02.html and addresses a topic we have discussed in the past. Mike Miller Smelter Toxics Served at Dinner via Crop Fertilizers SACRAMENTO, California, November 24, 1999 (ENS) - American farmers are spreading fertilizers containing toxic waste on farm fields and home gardens, California state and independent tests have found. Even though these products may exceed federal standards defining hazardous waste, the State of California is proposing new rules that would legalize the current practice of allowing these toxics to be mixed into fertilizers according to Dr. Bill Liebhart, a soil scientist in the Agronomy and Range Science Department at the University of California at Davis, who is also a veteran of the fertilizer industry. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 26 13:44:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25394 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27182 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:27:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27152 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:24:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'Claire.Klotz@usda.gov'" Subject: FW: Economist positions at USDA Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:24:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 470 ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Klotz, Claire" Subject: Economist positions at USDA Dear All, We have four positions in the Wholesale and Alternative Markets branch that will be opening up anywhere from immediately to six months from now. These are Economist or Agricultural Marketing Specialist positions. I am sending this email because we have difficulty attracting qualified candidates from normal announcement channels. This isn't surprising given the current strength of the economy. The positions range from GS-9 to GS-12. While there will be a pay raise in January, the salary currently ranges from $33,650 to $63,456. In the case of our branch, people tend to move up quickly. (Most are at the GS-9 level (typical starting pay for an M.S. degree) for one year, GS-11 year two and GS-12 year three.) The first step of a GS-12 is currently $48,796. In other words, these are good jobs appropriate for Master's students - if you are willing to be patient the first two years, you can get a nice salary. Our branch does a range of work - mostly feasibility studies on wholesale, farmers and public market facilities. We do have a "Farmer Direct Marketing Initiative" which is expanding the type of work that we do to include more outreach. There are opportunities to do some individual research and projects. A full description of the Wholesale and Alternative Markets (WAM) program can be viewed at: http://www.ams.usda.gov/tmd/wam.htm WAM will also need someone to take over the Farmer Direct Marketing Website (http://www.ams.usda.gov/directmarketing). The site gets about 40,000 visitors a year. The person also has to be willing to write the corresponding newsletter and handle incoming inquiries. If you have any M.S. students graduating in December or June who are looking for jobs, please forward my email and encourage them to contact me if they are job hunting and have any questions. USDA is also always looking to diversify its workforce so minorities and women are especially encouraged to apply. I am here until mid-February. After then, please contact errol.bragg@usda.gov. Thanks Jennifer-Claire Klotz Economist USDA - Wholesale and Alternative Markets Room 2644-South 1400 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20250-0269 Phone: (202) 690-4077 Fax: (202) 690-0031 Email: claire.klotz@usda.gov To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Nov 27 06:32:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03170 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12759 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:15:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mb07.swip.net (mb07.swip.net [193.12.122.211]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12670 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from d212-151-251-159.swipnet.se (d212-151-182-209.swipnet.se [212.151.182.209]) by mb07.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18012; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:12:00 +0100 (MET) Received: by d212-151-251-159.swipnet.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BF38D0.AD4693E0@d212-151-251-159.swipnet.se>; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:12:30 +0100 Message-ID: <01BF38D0.AD4693E0@d212-151-251-159.swipnet.se> From: Jacky Foo To: "'renewable-energy@egroups.com'" , "'RIAEN-L@PETE.URI.EDU'" , "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" , "'SC-ANR-L@CLEMSON.EDU'" , "'SWM-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA'" Subject: AEON Foundation provides authors with 150 US$ award Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:08:59 +0100 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 Hello Everyone I am happy to announce that the AEON Foundation of Japan has agreed to co-sponsor the Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems, March-Oct 2000 (see http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa for scope, conference theme and other instructions). A portion of the funds received will be used as awards for the presentation of papers with authors or co-authors from developing countries. About 25 awards of 150 US$ are available and intended to cover costs related to the preparation and presentation of papers as well as to encourage local colleagues to participate. Please take advantage of this award opportunity to present a paper ! So far; 10 abstracts (P1-P10) in the tentative list (below) of titles of papers have been approved and the rest are in the review process. ****Tentative List of Papers P1 - Kefa V O Rabah (Kenya) : Application of Sugarcane Residues as Biofuel for Cogeneration of Electricity Kenya P2 - H.Losada, et al. (Mexico): Recycling of solid wastes in the east of Mexico City by livestock and agricultural production systems. P3 - Simon Appleby & E.L. Foo (Indonesia/Sweden): Integrated bio-system for a feedlot-abattoir-meat processing and research complex in Bali P4 - Li Kangmin & Wang Qiuhua (P R China). Nutrient flow analysis in a digester-fishpond integrated bio-system P5 - Song Xiangfu, Ying Huodong, Wu Weiming, Jin Qianyu, Zou Guoyan and Li Kangmin*. (P.R: China) Study on surface aquaponics in natural waters with nutrient flow analysis P6 - Christina Aristanti (Indonesia) : From wastes to employment and environment improvement opportunities. P7 - Amrit B. Karki and Upendra Gautam (Nepal): Community Latrine-cum-biogas plant at Ward No. 1 of Pathari VDC of Morang District of Nepal. P8 - Julian David Chara & Elkin Dario Pulido (Colombia): Material flow in "Pozo Verde" Integrated Farm in Cauca Valley Province, Colombia. P9 - D. Craig Sheppard & G. Larry Newton (USA): Black Soldier Fly Larvae Produce High Quality Feedstuff from Manure P10 - Anna Hedlund (Sweden) : A theoretical integrated nutrient flow on a farm with three sub-systems in a village in Southern Vietnam P11 - Sudhira H.S. & Ann Jacob (India): Reutilisation of byproducts of coir industry : A Case Study. P12 - Paul Adler (USA) : Phytoremediation of aquaculture effluents with lettuce and basil. P13 - D K Saxena (India) : Metal Pollution in river Ra Ganga and its recovery through aquatic plant P14 - Jagannath Venkataramaih (India): Scales of Operations on Community Based Solid Wastes Management in India P15 - Jean-Pierre Bayala (Belgium) : Village-based integrated waste water treatment system at Women's Association of Song Taaba, Burkina Faso. P16 - Nguyen Van Trung (Vietnam) : Fertiliser value in biogas technology systems in Vietnam P17 - Mark J. Brotman (USA): Recovery and Utilization of By-Products from Greenhouse Operations with respect to Recirculating Aquaculture, Hydroponic and Mushroom Cultivation Systems P18 - S.M.Shehata, et al. (Egypt) : Rural Development through Integrated Waste Management 2nd CALL FOR ABSTRACTS We are looking for another 20 abstract submissions and would like to invite you to consider making a presentation of your work that can quantify the flow of materials through integrated bio-systems in one of the 11 conference themes (see http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa). The deadline for the 2nd Call for Abstracts is 31 Dec. 1999. A final call of abstracts will be released in January 2000. SUBMISSION OF ABSTRACT An abstract should not be more than 1 page in size and may contain text, table, diagrams, etc. It should include the title of paper, full name(s) and postal and email address(es) of author(s), summary and keywords. Please send your abstract(s) to foo@swipnet.se. All submitted abstracts will be reviewed by the Planning Group of the Conference. Authors should wait for formal notification of acceptance of the abstracts before proceeding into the preparation of the full paper(s). -----regards Mr. Eng-Leong "Jacky" Foo Co-ordinator, Integrated Bio-Systems Network http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/ibsnet P.S: Note on Registration: Registration to receive news and updates that is useful for your participation at the Conference is free. You can view news items on the web http://segate.sunet.se/archives/et-w11.html or receive them by email. To receive items via email, you need to subscribe to the Conference mailing list. Use the LISTSERV subscription command : SUB ET-W11 yourfirstname yourlastname and send your subscription to listserv@segate.sunet.se To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Nov 27 10:42:22 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04555 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02572 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:26:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02481 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool0091.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.170.91]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA18608; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:24:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991126201714.00890100@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:17:14 -0800 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Fred Chambers Subject: Amory Lovins transcript & video from San Diego In-Reply-To: <199911232310.SAA04010@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 A transcript along with video out takes from: Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution A Conversation with Amory Lovins held at the City of San Diego Environmental Services Dept. "green building", November 8, 1999 has been posted at: http://www.sdearthtimes.com/ET_Postings/amory.html Thanks to the efforts of volunteers: webmaster and videotaper: Chris Klein, web programmer: Craig Nguyen Tran and me. If you can't access the website for some reason, let me know and I can email you a copy of the notes themselves. A couple of highlights: "If you want a large suburban assault vehicle that is also radar stealthy and resistant to small arms fire - perhaps useful in a modern urban environments - and you want it to be safe and comfortable and superior in all respects, perform like a jaguar, emit nothing but hot drinking water and do 120 mpg. We now know how to do that." "The first near-hypercar, about 2/3 of the way there, the Honda Insight will reach the market this Christmas. The hypercar will ultimately save as much oil as OPEC now sells so in the Persian Gulf our military forces would have Mission Unnecessary. Also, it will be the end as we know them of the car, oil, steel , aluminum, coal and electricity industries." citing a recent article in the Economist: "'The stone age did not end because the world ran out of stones. And the oil age will not end because the world will run out of oil.' I would put it less elegantly. Oil will probably become uncompetitive even at low prices before it becomes unavailable at high prices." Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus and local groups encouraging Cal Poly to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit and post at: http://www.regen.org (BWA, SAFER, Regen site that kick's butt!) http://www.csupomona.edu/~vltenbrink/index.html (Victoria's Walnut Page) http://www.rokcircle.com (The Wilderness Forum) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 28 17:01:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19565 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01302 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:53:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01284 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLX002JAGM7IZ@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:49:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:44:35 -0800 From: Misha Subject: WTO/evil anti-GE activists/US Newswire To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 473 Howdy, all-- Thought some of you would be interested in this press release by the National Center for Public Policy. I trust some culpable sources will pick this editorializing up as news. From the U.S. Newswire service (at least this one is carefully headered so one can check out the source). http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/1123-101.htm Here is the Web site of the "National Center for Public Policy": http://www.nationalcenter.org/NCPPRHist.html Do note that Amy Ridenour is their president, as well as contact person for the attached press release. I believe that David A. Ridenour, their vice president, is her husband. He's the perennial ultra-conservative headlines grabber who asserts that raising mileage for SUVs is wrong because it'll kill people, doesn't believe in global warming, hates Al Gore with what appears to be a rather intense passion, is a favorite of Steven Milloy ("The Junkman" whose "junk science" Web site offers ample exercises in confused thinking suitable for any introductory high school logic or critical thinking class), is a supporter of the "wise use" movement, and believes that unbridled consolidation of telecommunications is a hunky-dory thing. Note that the National Center for Public Policy lists as its credentials the media that have published their stuff: "The National Center is a proven success in today's competitive media environment, garnering over 1,392 media interviews and citations in 1998, excluding published op/eds, while opinion pieces by National Center staff were published by newspapers over 576 times. Among those covering The National Center are the AP, UPI and Reuters, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Time ,Newsweek and U.S. News and World Report, ABC's World News Tonight, NBC News, CBS News, ABC Radio News, Good Morning America, 20/20, C-Span, PBS, NPR, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC and others. Talk radio coverage has been particularly newsworthy, with coverage by industry leaders Rush Limbaugh, Michael Reagan, G. Gordon Liddy, Jim Bohannon, Oliver North, Gil Gross, Barry Farber and many others." Source: http://www.nationalcenter.org/NCPPRHist.html peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Activists Attack Bio-Engineered Food Despite Benefits U.S. Newswire 23 Nov 6:30 Activists Attack Bio-Engineered Food Despite Benefits to the Poor and Sick To: National Desk Contact: Amy Ridenour of the National Center for Public Policy Research, 202-371-1400, ext. 107; Web site: http://www.nationalcenter.org WASHINGTON, Nov. 23 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following was released today by the National Center for Public Policy Research: At a time when Americans should be giving thanks for the benefits new biotechnologies offer the developing world, the environment and health, a coalition of environmental groups, Members of Congress and anti-technology Luddites are protesting these benefits and threatening their future. The protestors largely reside in rich European nations and the U.S., where, unlike in the developing world, the benefits of biotechnology are more a matter of convenience and health than one of life and death. The activists are seeking restrictions and increased government regulations upon the use of biotechnology, despite its many benefits. Activists are protesting public biotechnology meetings of the Food and Drug Administration, taking place in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and Oakland, Calif., this November and December, and are expected to be present in force at the World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle November 30-December 3. Led by Minority Whip David Bonior (D-Mich.), 50 Members of Congress sent a letter to the FDA calling for more restrictions on biotechnology. Among the acknowledged benefits of biotechnology: -- Elimination of starvation: Biotechnology can increase agricultural productivity in the developing world. For instance, the 1997 World Bank and Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research estimates that biotechnology will increase food production in the developing world by 25 percent. -- Health: Bioengineering can reduce the amount of saturated fats in foods, and increase nutrients. According to U.S. Senator Richard Lugar (R-Ind.) in Senate testimony, 500,000 children in developing nations go blind as a result of Vitamin A deficiency. Biotechnology can fortify rice, wheat, and corn with extra Vitamin A to stop this blindness in children. All in all, 250 million children currently suffer from Vitamin A deficiency worldwide, which can cause learning disabilities and, for girls, childbearing problems once they become adults. Biotechnology can also reduce allergens in foods. Presently, food allergies are the cause of 2,500 emergency room visits and 135 deaths annually in the U.S.; 1 percent to 3 percent of older children and adults suffer from food allergies, as do 5 percent to 8 percent of infants and toddlers. -- Environment: Biotechnology has already led to an 80 percent reduction in insecticide use in U.S. cotton crops and U.S. Department of Agriculture statistics show a 30 percent to 40 percent reduction in herbicide use. Biotechnology can reduce the amount of water needed to grow foods, and soil erosion as a result of agriculture. -- Family economy: Bioengineered baked goods, fruits and vegetables can have a longer shelf life, reducing waste and spoilage. "Currently, all U.S. food improved by biotechnology must pass stringent FDA and U.S. Department of Agriculture Safety Tests," said Amy Ridenour, president of The National Center for Public Policy Research. "They must be labeled if a portion of a known allergen has been introduced into a product, and they must contain a label if biotechnology has created a 'material difference' in the food. In short, allergy, health and safety issues are already being addressed by the U.S. government, but this is not enough for those activists who look upon all technological progress with suspicion, even when progress is helping the poor and the sick." ------ The National Center for Public Policy Research is a non-partisan, non-profit educational foundation based in Washington, D.C. Contact Amy Ridenour at 202-371-1400, ext. 110, or aridenour@nationalcenter.org -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 11/23 06:30 Copyright 1999, U.S. Newswire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Look around the table. If you don't see a sucker, get up. Because you're the sucker. --poker player Amarillo Slim To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Nov 28 23:29:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23720 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:29:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA12049 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:07:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12028 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:05:04 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991128215026.007d9870@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:50:26 -0600 To: Subject: Book Recommendation Sought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 474 Thanks to whomever recommended Soil Science Simplified. Good introduction. Any recommendations for a book at the next level? Background: I'm trying to improve a "white oak" silty clay loam soil that is high in magnesium. So far have added to ~ 1/2 acre 1500# sand, 1700# ag gypsum, 2-3 cu yds. sawdust, some wood ash and a summer's worth of grass clipping mulch. Gypsum made a noticeable difference between the spring and fall crops of snow peas. Mike Miller Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal "Persons". To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 00:58:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24563 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24442 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:31:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24381 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLY00IUA1VCPR@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:28:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:23:56 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Debunking Avery//E. coli/ To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 475 Howdy, all-- Since this issue has come up repeatedly here on SANET, I wanted to make sure that you all saw this piece from the current (fourth quarter 1999) issue of /PR Watch/. It addresses Dennis Avery's bunkum about /E. coli/ in organic foods. Note that this is copyrighted information, and is reprinted here with permission. To secure permission to reprint this article in various media, contact the editors of /PR Watch/: 74250.735@compuserve.com /PR Watch'/s Web site is at: http://www.prwatch.org peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Saving the Planet With Pestilent Statistics by Karen Charman PR Watch, Volume 6, No. 4: Fourth Quarter 1999 (Reprinted with permission; all rights reserved) Dennis T. Avery, author of the tract "Saving the Planet with Pesticides and Plastic," proudly describes himself as a missionary. His mission: to protect and promote "high-yield farming to save wildlife." Besides writing a nationally syndicated weekly column for the financial newswire Bridge News, Avery is also the director of the Hudson Institute's Center for Global Food Issues. He travels the country and the world preaching his gospel of biotechnology, pesticides, irradiation, factory farming and free trade. According to Avery, it is the greenies and "organic frenzies" who threaten the world with famine and loss of habitat for their sacred wildlife. Why? Because farming without synthetic pesticides, petrochemical fertilizers and biotechnology would require too much land. Avery sees no problem with agricultural pollution, be it groundwater contamination, pesticide and fertilizer runoff, or even the mountains of stinking manure produced by the huge cattle, chicken and hog operations that plague increasing numbers of rural communities. He denies that there is any link between pesticides and cancer or other illnesses. In fact, he says, organic food is what will kill you. Last Fall Avery began claiming that "people who eat organic and 'natural' foods are eight times as likely as the rest of the population to be attacked by a deadly new strain of E. coli bacteria (0157:H7)." This happens, he says, because organic food is grown in animal manure, a known carrier of this nasty microbe. He says his data comes from Dr. Paul Mead, an epidemiologist at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the federal agency that tracks outbreaks of foodborne illness. Avery continues delivering this message with op-eds that bear titles such as "The Silent Killer in Organic Foods" and "Wallace Institute Got it Wrong: CDC Data Does Indicate Higher Risk From Organic and Natural Foods." These editorials are diseminated by Bridge News to between 300 and 400 newspapers throughout the country and approximately 500,000 other subscribers here and abroad including government departments, central banks and businesses. I heard Avery's sermon live in June 1999 at the National Agricultural Biotechnology Council meeting in Lincoln, Nebraska. After his talk I asked him why he quoted the CDC as the source of his information when they deny having data attributing E. coli 0157:H7 outbreaks to organic food. He accused CDC of engaging in a "cover-up" due to pressure from environmentalists. Back home I noticed more than a couple of similar stories popping up in various venues. One particularly sloppy story, titled "Organic Food Creates Higher Risk for Food Poisoning," was posted on August 25, 1999 on USDA's National Food Safety Database by US Newswire, a service that electronically disseminates news releases. Though this story doesn't quote Avery, it quotes the CDC's Foodborne and Diarrheal Diseases Branch chief, Dr. Robert Tauxe, saying, "Organic food means a food was grown in animal manure." Tauxe denies ever making that statement and says he believes the rumor originated with Dennis Avery. After fielding numerous media queries on the subject, CDC took the unusual step on January 14, 1999 of issuing a press release stating, "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has not conducted any study that compares or quantitates the specific risk for infection with E. coli 0157:H7 and eating either conventionally grown or organic/natural foods." In addition, Tauxe says he called Avery to tell him to stop claiming that the CDC was the source of this allegation. Avery responded by telling Tauxe, "That's your interpretation, and I have mine." Avery's newest version of what happened with the CDC is that Dr. Paul Mead, an epidemiologist who works in Tauxe's division, gave him the information. Absolute bunk, says Mead. "What happened is that he called me up and announced that eight percent of the outbreaks of foodborne illness were from organic food. I took some exception to that and said I didn't know him and what his purpose was, but our data don't support that." Mead was chagrined to hear that a year after this conversation took place, Avery is still sourcing this phantom data back to him. Contrary to Avery's claim, E. coli 0157:H7 contamination from manure is less likely to occur on organic farms than in the factory farming system that Avery supports. Fred Kirschenmann is an organic farmer and board chairman of the private organic certification company Farm Verified Organic. He points out that a single cow produces approximately 10 times as much fecal matter as a human being. This means that a feedlot of, say, 5,000 head of cattle would produce the same amount of manure as 50,000 people. Yet modern conventional agriculture does not regulate the use of raw manure in food crops, Kirschenmann says, and farmers are spreading increasing amounts of it on their fields because it is too expensive to truck away and they don't have anywhere else to put it. Kirschenmann serves on the National Organic Standards Board which was charged by Congress to advise the USDA in formulating its legal standards defining organic food. "In organic systems, most animals have to have access to pasture, so they can't be concentrated in huge feedlots," he says, adding that Avery's charge that organic food is grown in manure is misleading, at best. "Organic farmers use manure, but virtually every certification organization I know of doesn't allow raw manure. Raw manure must either be composted or applied long enough in advance that the bacteria is no longer active," he said, adding that this requirement is being written into USDA's proposed rules. Dr. Robert Elder, a research microbiologist at the USDA's Meat Animal Research Center in Clay Center, Nebraska, specializes in measuring E. coli 0157:H7 in cattle. He says this deadly bacteria could be prevented from contaminating meat carcasses before they are ground into hamburger. "If you took meticulous time with every single carcass to vigorously clean it, scrub it, and wash it down, you could probably eliminate it," he said. But, Elder added, considering that the bigger plants are processing 3,000 to 4,000 animals a day--about 300 an hour--adequate cleaning is impossible. And that is a huge problem for the public. Elder's soon-to-be published research shows that in the summertime, when E. coli 0157:H7 levels peak, 80 to 100 percent of the feedlot cattle he tested carried the deadly 0157:H7 strain. Despite a public debunking of Avery's statements in the New York Times last February, his bogus claims continue to spread and appear to be gaining momentum. U.S. newspapers like the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Investor's Business Daily, and the Journal of Commerce have run stories about killer organic food. The story has also made its way to Canada and Europe, under headlines such as, "Organic just means it's dirtier, more expensive," "Organic food--'It's eight times more likely to kill you'" and "Organic food link to E. coli deaths." Even E. coli expert Rob Elder said he wouldn't eat organic food or feed it to his family because it was more pathogenic. When I asked where he got that information, he sent me a copy of an Avery piece, "Organic food? No thanks!" that appeared in the Wall Street Journal last December. Upon further questioning, Elder said a colleague had given it to him and said that Avery worked for the CDC, so he thought it was a credible source. I asked Sally Heinemann, the editorial director of Bridge News, if its syndicated columnists had to meet any particular criteria and whether Bridge checked the accuracy of Avery's columns. Instead of answering, she began shouting, "Who are you? Who do you represent? What do you really want to know? Go find it on the web!" before slamming the phone down. Avery says he can pretty much say what he likes, because he works for himself as an economic forecaster to farming organizations and doesn't have to worry about anybody firing him. Referring to his past employment with the US State Department and USDA, he adds: "I have full federal retirement, and I already own the prettiest small farm in America." He considers the $35,000 a year he gets from the Hudson Institute to be very little, and says he only needs money "to carry on the mission." Avery acknowledges that Hudson is corporate-funded. Looking over the roster of companies that have supported its work--agrichemical heavyweights like Monsanto, Du Pont, DowElanco, Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy and agribusiness giants ConAgra, Cargill, Procter & Gamble, among many others--Avery likely has no reason to fear the axe. His mission is their mission. Copyright 1999 The Center for Media and Democracy All rights reserved Contact CMD for permissions: Center for Media and Democracy 520 University Avenue, Suite 310 Madison, WI 53703 phone: (608) 260-9713 fax: 608-260-9714 email: 74250.735@compuserve.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Television: a medium. So called because it is neither rare nor well-done. --Ernie Kovacs To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 07:20:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26995 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03381 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:01:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03353 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:01:08 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.66]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:58:45 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991129054408.007dfcb0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:44:08 -0600 To: Subject: PR Watch/Biotechnology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 476 Thanks to Misha for more interesting reading over the coffee. Dr. G must be smiling about the growth and effectiveness of the PR/science industry complex in this country. Hey, anybody know when the film depicting the readers of "Consumer's Reports" as rats scurring out of the sewers will be released? ;>) I especialy liked the part about Dennis Avery's response to the CDC press release and phone call asking him to cease and desist with his intellectual dishonesty about E coli risk and the attribution of this dishonesty to the CDC, he responded "That's your interpretation and I have mine." So the guy knows he is lying pure and simple. This is not a case of simply being self-deluded. Clearly, it's time to get to the heart of the problem and break up the media conglomerates, reform campaign finance and free the education system from the boa constrictor embrace of "public/private partnership" finance. Mike Miller >The fourth quarter 1999 issue of /PR Watch/, published by the Center >for Media and Democracy (Madison, WI), is focusing on the biotech >industry's PR on genetic engineering. > >http://www.prwatch.org/99-Q4/index.html Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal "Persons". To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 09:37:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29258 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01878 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:05:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01870 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (pm3-2-47.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.208.223] (may be forged)) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA16028 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:57:23 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004a01bf3a71$e736b1a0$dfd02e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "SANET-mg" References: Subject: Re: WTO/evil anti-GE activists/US Newswire Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:59:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 477 Thanks Misha, as always. For updates on the Seattle event (less than 24 hours away) from the trenches...see http://www.globalizethis.org/home2.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 09:45:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29360 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08460 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:15:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08338 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([171.217.247.176]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 116; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:20:55 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991129081614.0330abf0@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:16:14 -0600 To: "Julie" , "SANET-mg" From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re: WTO/evil anti-GE activists/US Newswire In-Reply-To: <004a01bf3a71$e736b1a0$dfd02e9c@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 478 for live and complete coverage check out http://www.wtowatch.org especially check out the press conference with Jim Hightower and Jose Bove Mark Ritchie At 07:59 AM 11/29/99 -0600, Julie wrote: >Thanks Misha, as always. > >For updates on the Seattle event (less than 24 hours away) from the >trenches...see http://www.globalizethis.org/home2.html > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Watch the WTO Ministerial Live at http://www.wtowatch.org Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) cell phone 612-385-7921 mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 10:54:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00748 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04253 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:16:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from Ag.Arizona.Edu (AG.Arizona.EDU [128.196.42.70]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04220 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from gfrance (Ag.Arizona.Edu [128.196.42.70]) by Ag.Arizona.Edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA09901 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:13:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991129081603.00799c40@ag.arizona.edu> X-Sender: gfrance@ag.arizona.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:16:03 -0700 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Glenn France Subject: GMO's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 479 The following is on PBS this evening and it may be of interest, INTIMATE STRANGERS: UNSEEN LIFE ON EARTH "Creators of the Future" Tuesday, November 30, 1999 (8-9:00 pm) This series explores the mysterious, silent, invisible world of microbes -- the first life forms on Earth -- responsible for the production of most of the Earth's oxygen. The fourth episode focuses on scientists who are using innovative and high-tech partnerships with microbes to reclaim our damaged environment and feed a growing population. (CC, Stereo, WWW) Glenn France University of Arizona Office of Arid Lands Studies 1955 E. 6th Street Room 210 Tucson, AZ 85719 1-520-293-2103 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 29 14:20:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05917 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00791 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:42:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00733 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-94.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.94]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA05256; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:38:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <015901bf3ab2$1041ca40$dcf96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Misha" , "SANET-mg" References: Subject: Re: Debunking Avery//E. coli/ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:38:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 480 > Dear Misha (I snipped most of the original post below) Interesting as usual. As I read I was struck by something in the last paragraphs :basically Avery has a pension and is paid $35,000 by the Hudson Institute. I suspect that if one were able to dig deeper (Misha?) and follow a paper trail, one might find that Avery gets some big bucks from the companies that benefit most from his "PR". I guess I find it hard to believe that lying on that scale comes as cheap as $35,000. Thanks for keeping us informed, Misha, Beth > Note that this is copyrighted information, and is reprinted here with > permission. To secure permission to reprint this article in various > media, contact the editors of /PR Watch/: > > 74250.735@compuserve.com > > /PR Watch'/s Web site is at: > > http://www.prwatch.org > > > peace > misha > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Avery says he can pretty much say what he likes, because he works > for himself as an economic forecaster to farming organizations and > doesn't have to worry about anybody firing him. Referring to his past > employment with the US State Department and USDA, he adds: "I have > full federal retirement, and I already own the prettiest small farm > in America." He considers the $35,000 a year he gets from the Hudson > Institute to be very little, and says he only needs money "to carry > on the mission." > > Avery acknowledges that Hudson is corporate-funded. Looking over > the roster of companies that have supported its work--agrichemical > heavyweights like Monsanto, Du Pont, DowElanco, Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy > and agribusiness giants ConAgra, Cargill, Procter & Gamble, among > many others--Avery likely has no reason to fear the axe. His mission > is their mission. > > > Copyright 1999 The Center for Media and Democracy > All rights reserved > > Contact CMD for permissions: > Center for Media and Democracy > 520 University Avenue, Suite 310 > Madison, WI 53703 > phone: (608) 260-9713 > fax: 608-260-9714 > email: 74250.735@compuserve.com > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Michele Gale-Sinex > Communications manager > Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison > http://www.wisc.edu > UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 > Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) > Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Television: a medium. So called because it is neither rare nor > well-done. --Ernie Kovacs > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 02:48:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16980 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04701 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:24:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA04624 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20989 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:22:13 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17654 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:24:36 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 30 Nov 99 08:16:23 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 30 Nov 99 08:16:22 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:16:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: request for article Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <314358A5109@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 481 if i remember right, i've once read a mail from a ms. or mrs. Sheri Huerd in this group. if she THE sheri huerd, who wrote the article below and still reads here, would she be so kind (if possible) to send me the article by email ?? Integrated weed biocontrol: Effects on weed demography and population dynamics. Sheri Huerd, N. Jordan, D. Wyse, G. Johnson, University of Minnesota, St. Paul. thanks in advance ..... klaus Klaus Wiegand Landwirtschaftl. Untersuchungs- u. Forschungsanstalt (LUFA) (Governm. Inst. for Agricult. & Environm. Res.) 67346 Speyer, Obere Langgasse 40 (GERMANY) Dept. of Seed Sci., Microscop. Analysis & Plant Pathol. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 10:48:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21684 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27430 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:05:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from iglou.com (sendmail@iglou1.iglou.com [192.107.41.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27419 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.255.236.29] (helo=lou-ts9-14.iglou.com ident=dawn) (dawn) by iglou.com with smtp (8.9.3/8.9.3) id 11soo8-0002M7-00; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:03:09 -0500 X-Sender: ripley@iglou.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: ripley@iglou.com (Dawn M. Ripley) Subject: Millennium Gardens Message-Id: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:03:09 -0500 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 482 I've searched high and low for references that USDA Secretary for Agriculture Dan Glickman supposedly made concerning a new gardening initiative called Millennium Gardens, but I can't find anything anywhere. I was under the impression that it's related to the USDA's food-security initiatives. Could someone please point me in the right direction for more information? Thanks, Dawn Ripley -------------------- Dawn M. Ripley dripley@ca.uky.edu County Extension Agent for Urban Programs www.ca.uky.edu Cooperative Extension Service, Jefferson County 8012 Vinecrest Avenue, Suite 1 Louisville, Kentucky 40222-4690 (502) 425-4482 (502) 425-0109 fax To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 11:31:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22530 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20688 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:58:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from svn.net (IDENT:root@svn1.svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20622 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (pm3-154.svn.net [167.160.201.154]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11768; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: "Misha" , "SANET-mg" Subject: GMOs in the Media Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:59:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 483 Richard Harris, NPR radio, reported this morning on the GMO debate. One issue which was left hanging was the assertion that organic corn is more susceptible to passing on (to humans) a potentially-harmful fungus (spread by a worm?) which would otherwise be killed by the GMO trait. Can anyone recommend a respected scientist or organization which could address this specific issue? I would like to follow-up with NPR, but need a reliable and reputable information source. Thanks, Michael ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Public Relations & Marketing for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 11:58:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23040 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04381 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:32:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04361 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:32:17 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.68]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:29:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991130101506.007cf5b0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:15:06 -0600 To: Subject: NPR's WTO News Coverage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 484 The news this morning on NPR was beautiful example of how to discredit your opponents with inuendo and silence them at the same time. Case in point was the "suspicious movement" reported by a guard or police in a construction site ?apparently next to the meeting hall? which just had to "necessaitate" a swat team sweep of the meeting hall which just happened to shorten the public comment period of the meeting scheduled to hear NGO concerns with the structure of the WTO. Pretty slick and Slick Willy was not even in town yet was he? And I loved how NPR implied that it was the opponents fault that the meeting was cut short with a sort of "they got their just reward" tone. I guess the corpate interest takeover of the media is pretty much complete, if NPR can't even do a story straight anymore. "More Ehnanced Underwriting" anyone? When the NAFTA treaty was being debated, a WPR program called To The Best of Our Knowledge discussed two ways NAFTA could be implemented and it went something like this. One way to go would be to pay good wages to the workers in the lower wage countries and implement the same enviornmental standards as in the home country. This would raise the wages in the lower wage country and not harm their enviornment and give them enough money to buy some of the widgets they are making. Like Henry Ford did in the early automobile industry days, he paid good wages to his workers so they could buy his cars. Under this format, the lower wage country gets some new jobs, the environment is protected and the high wage country gets lower cost products to off set the wage lowering effect of the job transfers. Most people win a little in this implementation and the benefits of global trade are somewhat evenly distributed between trading partners. The other way and the way businesses acutally have used free trade is to drive wages down in the high waged country by moving production to lower wage countries, pay low wages to these worker and ignore enviornmental standards, then import the goods produced back to the home country and sell them at or near the pre-job transfer prices. The result is all the benefits accure to the stock holders. The workers are less well off and the environment suffers. Most people lose under this implementation but a few people win big. Global trade is not inherently good or bad. It depends on how the system is setup which is what the NGO's are trying to say. I cannot raise in a cost effective manner haberno peppers in the Midwestern USA during January. The countries in the other side of the equator can. If the cost of shipping and disease tranfer are not a barrier, we both benefit. Nothing wrong with this type of trade in non-essential supplies. Besides, it helps keep countries civil with each other. How long can you live without coffee ;>) On second thought maybe that is an essential commodity like national defense production. However, as the program guest pointed out this second implementation of NAFTA described above leads to a "death sprial" of ever lower wages and decreased production. The worker in the lower wage country does not earn enough money to buy many of the widgets he makes and now the newly down-sized worker in the developed country finds he was also "down-waged" as well so he cannot afford to buy as many wigets as before either. The economies of scale kick-in in reverse raising the unit cost of production in the offshore plant requiring the management to demand even lower wages leading to lower demand for widgets and so on. Plants consolidate and ever more people suffer wage decreases and job losses. Stockholders/CEO etc win during the early parts of the sprial, but their excess income does not go to buy widgets, they already have all the widgets they can use. The choice of economic system should be made by those affected by it and the choice not just controlled by a plutotracy as is now happening. You have one life, it is up to you to deceide how you want to live it. Mike Miller Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal "Persons". To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 13:11:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24376 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02377 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:42:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02318 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM000EC7U906P@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:36:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:16:04 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: FDA OFFICIALS TO BE CHALLENGED WITH FDA INTERNAL WARNINGS RE: GENE-ENGINEERED FOODS To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id MAA02368 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 485 Howdy, all-- Thought this item from the Alliance for Bio-Integrity in Iowa City might interest some of you. See also their Web site for the internal FDA documents in question: http://www.biointegrity.org/list.html You'll find some interesting thinking and discussion in those documents of issues like risk, toxicity, data vacuums, and the culture of the science and policy making. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ALLIANCE FOR BIO-INTEGRITY TO CHALLENGE U.S. >FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION (FDA) OFFICIALS AT NOVEMBER 30TH MEETING >ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. > >WILL CONFRONT AGENCY WITH EVIDENCE IT COVERED-UP MEMORANDA FROM FDA >EXPERTS WARNING ABOUT UNIQUE HEALTH RISKS OF BIOTECH FOODS > >PHOTOCOPIES OF THESE INTERNAL FDA DOCUMENTS NOW PUBLISHED ON >ALLIANCE'S WEBSITE: http://www.biointegrity.org > >FDA Commissioner Dr. Jane Henney and her top officials will receive >strong criticism of the agencyís policy on genetically engineered foods >from a public interest attorney at the open meeting to be held by the >agency in Washington, D.C. on November 30. Steven M. Druker, executive >director of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity, will fault the FDA for >ignoring scientifically justified safety concerns in approving >genetically engineered foods. > >He has been invited to present his views as a member of the panel on >Scientific, Safety, and Regulatory Issues. > >His criticisms will be aired on the day the World Trade Organization >conference starts in Seattle, with the U.S. delegation insisting that >FDA policy on genetically engineered foods is science-based and that >widespread concerns in Europe and Asia are unscientific and irrational. > >Mr. Druker will specifically critique the FDA for turning its back to >repeated warnings from its own scientists about the unique risks of >genetically engineered foods and for then proclaiming itself "...not >aware of any information showing that foods derived by these new methods >differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way." > >These warnings recently came to light when the FDA was required to >disclose its internal files during the course of a lawsuit headed by >Drukerís organization, Alliance for Bio-Integrity, et al. v. Shalala >et al. > >The suit, which is pending in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., >demands that the FDA institute mandatory safety testing and labeling of >all genetically engineered foods. Mr. Druker organized an unprecedented >coalition of eminent scientists and religious leaders to stand as >plaintiffs, and he is also serving as one of the attorneys. > >After Druker and co-panelists have made their statements, Commissioner >Henney and other FDA officials will have an opportunity to dialogue with >them. > >The panel discussion will occur during the morning session, which runs >from 10:00 A.M. until 1 P.M at the Cohen Auditorium in the Wilbur J. >Cohen Building, 330 Independence Ave S.W., Washington, D.C. > >Note: Exact copies of several FDA documents expressing concern about >risks of bioengineered foods are now on the Alliance for Bio-Integrity >website: http://www.biointegrity.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 13:50:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25053 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22394 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22386 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09174; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12950; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12945; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:21:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:21:22 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu, mferra01@emerald.tufts.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 486 Hello to all, Here is the original German for the Justus von Liebig quote that I posted last week (please excuse any typos or lack of German characters) Justus von Liebig (1855) "Leider erkennt man fast nirgendwo die wahre Schonheit der Landwirtschaft, dass sie einen geistigen Inhalt und gleichsam eine Seele hat. Diese Kunst hat ein Ende, wenn der Landwirt, von unwissenden, unwissenschlaftlichen und blodsichtigen Lehrern verleitet, alle seine Hoffnungen auf Universalmittel setz, die es in der Natur nicht gibt, wenn er, von vorubergeheden Erfolgen geblendet, sich auf ihre Anwendung verlasst, den Boden daruber vergisst und dessen Wert und Einfluss aus den Augen verliert." source: Liebig von J. (1855) Die Grundatze der Agriculturchemie mit Rucksicht auf die in England angestellten Untersuchungen. Braunschweig. Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Nov 30 12:32:17 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23643 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA17684 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:06:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17607 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991130170354.CCTY11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:03:54 -0800 Message-ID: <38440497.4DB1A64B@home.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:08:39 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: CSPAN- live:FDA Hearing on bioengineered foods Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 487 Its live on CSPAN - 9:07 PST To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 15:28:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26887 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29004 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:51:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1406.mail.yahoo.com (web1406.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.170]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28993 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:51:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19991130194840.13556.rocketmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.236.204] by web1406.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:48:40 PST Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: Y2K: ComputerWorld Sets the Story Straight To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 488 November 30, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President & Executive Director, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net Global Y2K Infrastructure Risks: http://www.humanitarian.net/y2keconomic.html Y2K: COMPUTERWORLD SETS THE STORY STRAIGHT http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/991129CE6A __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 15:38:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27078 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00432 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00371 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26192 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05121 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:54:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:54:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Other good uses for bulldozers besides swales! (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id OAA00383 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 489 > - WORLD > > The farmer who flattened McDonald's > > By GAY ALCORN, Herald Correspondent in Seattle > Jose Bove, the French sheep farmer who became an international celebrity when > he bulldozed a McDonald's restaurant in August, is a central figure among the > World Trade Organisation dissenters here. > He spreads Roquefort cheese on crackers - not as the polite act of a good > host, but as a political statement, a small symbol of a ''citizen's revolt'' > against globalisation. > The 46-year-old farmer was barely aware of the WTO and its elaborate rules > until August. > Before then, he bred sheep and sold the milk to producers of the uniquely > French Roquefort. > But when the European Community banned US beef reared on hormone injections, > America took the case to the WTO, which sets trading rules and hears disputes > between member countries. > The WTO ruled that the European Union's act was illegal under international > trading rules, and that there was no proven health risk in hormone-injected > beef, even if the Frenchwere distrustful of it. > The EU refused to budge, and the WTO allowed the US to retaliate with huge > tariffs of its own, which included hikes on luxury items such as mustard and > the pungent Roquefort cheese. > That doubled the price to $US30 ($47) for half a kilo in August, virtually > eliminating the market in the US. > That issue encapsulates the debate about surrendering sovereignty in the name > of global stability in trade. > It is fitting, too, that Mr Bove is French, because it is France that is > rebelling most about overwhelming US trading power. > ''We cannot accept a world that has only one political pole ... the > unilateralism of a single hyper-power,'' the French Foreign Minister, Mr > Hubert Vedrine, said recently. > Mr Bove says: ''The struggle is not against America or against American > farmers. > ''The battle we begin is against WTO and globalisation. We don't want the > multinational corporation to say what we have to eat. We don't want the big > corporation to say we need only one culture.'' > Mr Bove and other enraged farmers vandalised a McDonald's to protest against > the risk of a worldwide uniformity of culture, and his arrest led to massive > demonstrations in France. > ''McDonald's is one culture - in Singapore in Texas and in France - and we > don't want that,'' he says. ''Each people have the right to eat what he > wants, and that is the most important issue of what's going to happen in > Seattle.'' > Mr Bove joined a group of US farmers in Seattle yesterday to lay out a table > of Roquefort, genetically unmodified soy and corn products, and organic beef > and salmon. > The farmers say they area symbol of a grassroots revolt against globalisation. > ''There is a growing people's rebellion against the - you can call it the > corporatisation of their lives - the taking of authority from ordinary folks, > '' said Jim Hightower, a former Texas Commissioner of Agriculture. > Mr Bove likened the fight to the Boston Tea party, when Americans tossed tea > into the sea to protest against colonial taxes. > ''It's a big example and we want to do it again ... to put out the > multinational producers, and I'm sure we're going to win.''' > [go to top] > Copyright © 1999. The Sydney Morning Herald > All rights reserved. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 30 17:35:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29250 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05617 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:04:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailbox.iwaynet.net (IDENT:root@mailbox.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05268 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.244.49.35] (iport335.iwaynet.net [206.244.49.35]) by mailbox.iwaynet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA03950; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:57:50 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:06:28 -0500 To: FarmerAdele@prodigy.net, Sundermeier.5@osu.edu, lynch.49@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu, adwyer@io.com, aclark@crop.uoguelph.ca, waves@ecunet.org, artstrauss@iwaynet.net, garyan@tiac.net, HERB99@aol.com, Stinner.1@osu.edu, bomo.1@worldnet.att.net, witzeman@worldnet.att.net, bdevries@pop.cais.net, dbrodin@heartwood.org, buckeye@envirolink.org, campaign@magiccarpet.com, aa734@seorf.ohiou.edu, Bessman@knownet.net, BRBF@compulinx-net.net (Chapis Kenneth), Treebeing@aol.com, clynd@cavenet.org, PorChuck@aol.com, cvof@iquest.net, davidb@uslink.net, dswaim@tctc.com, cavanaughd@ces.aces.uiuc.edu, stinner.2@osu.edu, delsbread@hotmail.com, delind@pilot.msu.edu, baker.5@osu.edu, Hall.16@osu.edu, dh43048@navix.net, ae687@seorf.ohiou.edu, edbain@hotmail.com, erich@ecr.net, erorganic@aol.com, bird@msue.msu.edu, AFSCole@aol.com, inform@heartwood.org, csas007@unlvm.unl.edu, huelsman.16@osu.edu, jack@theoec.org, a_spinosa@hotmail.com, jjmarv@hotmail.com, berdache7@hotmail.com, jhazelbaker@envirolink.org, durling@pilot.msu.edu, ssikerd@muccmail.missouri.edu, judi_burnell@wilmington.edu, rainycrkjb@rr1.net, jholley@tmn.com, k.tracy@usa.net, kateweber@earthlink.net, kdix@bright.net, ezkkraska@juno.com, ab210@seorf.ohiou.edu, krist@cfra.org, mkrome@inxpress.net, labusby@compuserve.com, jhopwood@wviz.org, lbauer2@unl.edu, goodows@mailexcite.com, ohsc2@igc.org, farmermarg@orwell.net, bwelker@iwaynet.net, sssyfrs@bright.net, skinner@ssti.org, markstei@CONCENTRIC.NET, ecoteams@megsinet.net, mmoore@jdki.com, humaneso@wcnet.org, Mpeters@envirolink.org, memawi@hotmail.com, GoCrew@aol.com, love2u@rocketmail.com, cote.1@osu.edu, hogan.1@osu.edu, Silvrcf@aol.com, Moore.11@osu.edu, info@omri.org, pwheeler@nalusda.gov, bierman.2@osu.edu, rzewnicki.1@osu.edu, MPolemeni@msn.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, SUSAG-TEAM@postoffice.ag.ohio-state.edu, randi@clover.net, ilstew@fgi.net, elfwood@erinet.com, rsahli@bright.net, RYMCGOVERN@aol.com, smb1@uakron.edu, swaltz@odant.agri.state.oh.us, sean.d.kelley@us.pwcglobal.com, jack@greenlink.org, markstei@CONCENTRIC.NET, sbonney@iquest.net, SSears7547@cs.com, teny10@yahoo.com, tkitson@pop.service.ohio-state.edu, billwenzel@aol.com, william_d._heffernan@muccmail.missouri.edu From: oeffa@mailbox.iwaynet.net (Sean McGovern) Subject: Athens, Ohio. Sustainable Agriculture Assistant Coordinator Position Available Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 490 Dear Friends: I've been asked to send this along to you. >Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:24:00 -0500 >To:Anne >From:oeffa@mailbox.iwaynet.net (Sean McGovern) >Subject:Athens, Ohio. Sustainable Agriculture Assistant Coordinator >Position Available > >For the classifieds.... > > > >>X-Originating-IP: [204.192.96.15] >>From: "Good Food Direct!" >>To: oeffa@iwaynet.net >>Subject: Athens, Ohio. Sustainable Agriculture Assistant Coordinator >>Position Available >>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:03:20 EST >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >>Rural Action Sustainable Agriculture >>Assistant Coordinator position available!!!! >> >>Qualifications: Knowledge and experience in sustainable agriculture, >>including marketing and policy issues. Excellent oral and written >>communication skills, and ability to work with people from diverse >>backgrounds. Successful track record in project development. Bachelor's >>degree, or equivalent experience, and minimum of two years work experience >>in sustainable agriculture or an appropriate field. >> >>Duties: >>1. Work with Ag.-Forestry coordinator to coordinate all aspects of Rural >>Action's Sustainable Agriculture Program. >>2. Interface with and support the Sustainable Forestry Program. >>3. Work with the Sustainable Agriculture Committee, Ag.-Forestry >>Coordinator, and team to evaluate programs and revise the sustainable >>agriculture work plan at least annually. >>4. Supervise all VISTA volunteers, Jobs Training Staff, work studies, and >>interns assigned to the program. >>5. Assist the Ag.-Forestry coordinator and development director with grant >>writing, fundraising and reporting for the Sustainable Agriculture program. >>6. Meet regularly with Rural Action's partner agencies for joint planning >>and evaluation. >>7. Perform public speaking and outreach activities for the program. >>8. Represent Rural Action and the Sustainable Agriculture program at >>relevant conferences as appropriate. >>9. Work with the media team on program publicity. >>10. Complete all required reports. >>11. Attend regular staff meetings and team meetings. >>12. Participate in membership recruitment and fundraising activities for >>Rural Action. >>13. Other duties as assigned. >> >>Reports to: Ag.-Forestry Coordinator >>Compensation: $10.00 per hour, 40 hours per week, plus benefits package. >> >>To apply: Send resume and 3 references to Colin Donohue, Ag-Forestry >>Coordinator, P.O. Box 157, Trimble, Ohio 45782. 740-767-4938. E-mail >>colind@ruralaction.org. Resumes must be received by 5:00 P.M. on Monday, >>December 6th, 1999. >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > Sincerely, Sean McGovern Executive Director Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association PO Box 82234 Columbus Ohio 43202 (ph) 614/267-3663 (fx) 614/267-4763 email: oeffa@iwaynet.net Visit OEFFA on the World Wide Web at www.greenlink.org/oeffa For OCIA/OEFFA Organic Certification services in Ohio, call OEFFA Certification Coordinator, Sylvia Upp at 419/853-4060 or fax 419/853-3022 For OEFFA's Newsletter submissions and/or ad rate sheets, call Newsletter Editor Anne Bulford at 740/993-2871 or email . Display and classified ads should be sent with payment and camera ready art to: Anne Bulford, 2074 Brownschapel Rd, Clarksburg, Ohio 43115. Extra fees apply for typesetting and design services. Shipping Only- Parhelion Building, OEFFA, 2232 N Summit St, Columbus, Ohio 43202 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 02:48:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA06420 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA24472 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:25:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net [207.172.11.22]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24462 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from maxam.bluefin.net (maxam.bluefin.net [205.162.64.241]) by gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id CAA11528 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:22:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:22:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912010722.CAA11528@gilgamesh.nh.ultra.net> X-Sender: stevem@pop.nh.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: stevem@nh.ultranet.com (Stephen Maxam) Subject: Re: Book Recommendation Sought Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 491 >Thanks to whomever recommended Soil Science Simplified. Good introduction. >Any recommendations for a book at the next level? (snip) Mike Miller >Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal >"Persons". Try Amazon. I found even agricultural science textbooks there, you know, the kind that sell for $100. Steve Maxam "The biggest cause of crime is poverty. Wipe out poverty and you wipe out crime. All 'persons' are 'legal', even the 'criminals'." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 10:01:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11765 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19324 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:02:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19267 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP237.dialsprint.net [158.252.94.253]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17439 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:00:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38451BF1.D1CF87F2@sprintmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:00:34 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Book Recommendation Sought Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 492 Mike, Try "The Nature and Properties of Soil" by Brady. This is a soil textbook used at most Ag colleges. I got a used one at a bookstore near an Ag school- about half price. You may find an older edition for less. Also "Building Soils for Better Crops, Organic Matter Management" by Magdoff. A good book about organic matter. First 2/3 is in layman's terms and the last 1/3 in scientific language. I've found these both helpful in my understanding of soil. Soil life and plant/soil relationships is another matter. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 12:09:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14874 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21679 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21651 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:55:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'Ann Carey'" Subject: DC Area: UN consultation for NGOs RE: Sustainable Ag Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:55:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 For more information, please contact: Ann Carey (Phone: 202-690-0511; Fax: 202-690-4390; E-mail: ann.carey@usda.gov The U.S. Department of Agriculture Invites you to Participate in a Consultation for Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) on Sustainable Agriculture and Rural Development and Integrated Planning and Management of Land Resources as a part of US government preparations for the Eighth Session of the UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT In April 2000 at UN Headquarters in NYC Monday, December 13, 1999 10:00 am to 12:00 noon Room 104-A, the Williamsburg Room, Whitten Building US Department of Agriculture, Washington, DC 20250 12th and Jefferson Drive, SW - Smithsonian Metro Stop Topics will include: * The Outcomes of the 9/99 Maastricht Conference on the Multifunctional Character of Agriculture and Land (a CSD-8 Intersessional Meeting) * The Upcoming CSD-8 Intersessional Meetings in February at UN HQ in NYC * Your ideas and opinions to help us develop US Positions on these issues Participants will include: - Adela Backiel, Director of Sustainable Development and Small Farms, USDA * Other Federal Members of the CSD-8 Interagency Working Group Teleconferencing will be available. Call-in lines with audio answer will be: 202-401-8746 (Metro DC) or 1-800-377-4755 (outside of Metro DC) For more information, please contact: Ann Carey (Phone: 202-690-0511; Fax: 202-690-4390; E-mail: ann.carey@usda.gov To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 14:11:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20912 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16553 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:09:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16547 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from gwg2 ([128.253.226.175]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03679; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:06:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991201114004.00b868b0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:43:14 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Gilbert Gillespie Subject: Fwd: ME AgDevelopment Cc: jg16@cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 Please send your answers to Judy Green's questions directly to her at jg16@cornell.edu. Thanks, Gil Gillespie >X-Sender: jg16@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:11:59 -0500 >X-PH: V4.1@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Cornell Modified) >To: gwg2@cornell.edu (Gilbert Wayne Gillespie Jr.) >From: Judy Green <> >Subject: ME AgDevelopment > >Gil - could you forward the following message to sanet? THANKS > > > >Congratulations to the state of Maine for clearly making the link between >agriculture development, community development and sustainability. See >below for a very interesting forum - most interesting in that it has gotten >the attention and support of their governor and Dept of Ag.. > >Question to Maine folks on the list... Has ME Farm Bureau been supportive >of this Forum and the issues being discussed here? I have heard that Farm >Bureau nationally has taken a position against "Smart Growth" for example. >(And is this really true?) > >Just curious. We would like to know more about the roles that Farm Bureau, >commodity groups, state agencies and landgrants and other mainstream ag >organizations are playing in support of (or in opposition to) this sort of >agriculture development which emphasizes agriculture's connection to >community. > >Please share your stories. > >Judy > > >Status: U >Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:18:54 -0500 >From: Gene Thomas >Organization: MCFS >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: NE community food systems >Subject: Late but hopefully not too >Sender: owner-nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu > >Maine Rural Development Council will host a Forum titled "Agricultural >Development and the Building of Vibrant Communities in the Next >Millennium" on 9 December (next Thursday). Governor King will present >the luncheon keynote speach and Agricultural Commissioner Robert Spear >will co-chair the morning overview presentation. > >Breakout work sessions will cover these topics: >A. Agriculture and Community Development: Trends in Markets and >Marketing >B. Sustainable Farm Management: Skills, Innovations, Resources and >Services >C. The Cost of Sprawl to Family Farms and Rural Communities >D. Connecting Agriculture to Community Building >E. Structural Issues in Agricultural Development >F. Food Security and Hunger in Rural Maine > >Contact Patricia Kontur for more information at: >207-581-3193 or pkontu71@maine.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 14:48:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21900 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16791 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:12:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16710 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-183.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.183]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:08:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:06:00 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <10545.991201@acnet.net> To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: Subject: Re: Book Recommendation Sought In-reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991128215026.007d9870@pcsia.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19991128215026.007d9870@pcsia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 495 Hi Mike, Sunday, November 28, 1999, 9:50:26 PM, you wrote: mpc> Thanks to whomever recommended Soil Science Simplified... Any mpc> recommendations for a book at the next level? I highly recommend "Fertile Soil", published and available for purchase on the web through agAccess: http://www.agaccess.com/ I bought it soon after it was published and wouldn't be without it. Fertile Soil: A Grower's Guide to Organic & Inorganic Fertilizers Robert Parnes; 1990, 210 Pages, Softcover http://www.agribooks.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/~fg/st_prod.html?p_prodid=AGA005&sid=2Qu0HHFOL At last there is a book about fertilizer from someone who understands organic farming practices! This unpretentious book explains the basics of soil fertility and then goes into how to determine nutrient requirements for different crops. A thorough discussion of compost and other organic fertilizer sources follows. Several chapters on the major and minor fertilizer nutrients explain their role in the plant and how to supply them. Excellent tables provide hard to find information. Availibility: In Stock. Ships in 1-2 days. Item#: AGA005, Price: $39.95Fertile Soil: A Grower's Guide to Organic & Inorganic Fertilizers - Robert Parnes, 1990, S Should you want to consider other alternatives, a keyword search on the Soil Management / Fertility Books section for the word "fertile" brought the following: Keyword Search Results Bio-Gardener's Bible, The: How to Build a Super-Fertile Garden - Lee Fryer, 1982, Softcover Fertile Ground Book Catalog - International Edition - Fertile Ground, Inc., 1999, Softcover Fertile Soil: A Grower's Guide to Organic & Inorganic Fertilizers - Robert Parnes, 1990, Softcover Let it Rot! - Stu Campbell, 1997, Softcover Secrets to Great Soil: A Growers Guide to Composting, Mulching and Creating Heal - Stell, Elizabeth, 1998, Softcover Soul of Soil: A Guide to Ecological Soil Management - Gershuny, Smilie, 1995, Softcover Soul of Soil: A Soil-Building Guide for Master Gardeners and Farmers - Gershuny, Grace; Smilie, Joe, 1999, Softcover If you want to examine *all* the whole Soil Management / Fertility Books selections there are a lot more at: http://www.agaccess.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/~fg/st_main.html?catid=123 Douglas Hinds - CeDeCoR, A.C. dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** mpc> Thanks to whomever recommended Soil Science Simplified. Good mpc> introduction. Any recommendations for a book at the next level? mpc> Background: I'm trying to improve a "white oak" silty clay loam soil that mpc> is high in magnesium. So far have added to ~ 1/2 acre 1500# sand, 1700# ag mpc> gypsum, 2-3 cu yds. sawdust, some wood ash and a summer's worth of grass mpc> clipping mulch. Gypsum made a noticeable difference between the spring and mpc> fall crops of snow peas. Mike Miller mpc> Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal mpc> "Persons". mpc> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command mpc> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command mpc> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". mpc> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command mpc> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". mpc> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: mpc> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 18:40:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28806 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26433 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:07:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26355 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21936 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-150.csj.net [12.29.22.150]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12927 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:04:58 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: Subject: Patent approved with toxin-autoimmune connection Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:02:32 -0600 Message-ID: <000801bf3c50$291a4160$f26bfea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF3C1D.DE7FD160" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF3C1D.DE7FD160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This patent #5,989,594 was approved on November 23, 1999. Embedded within the patent are the direct pathways from various pesticides and herbicides to ATP depletion and autoimmune disorders. The rebuttal contains far more, but it is not published with the patent. http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5989594'.WKU.&OS=PN/5989594&RS=PN/5 989594 Ratite extracts as therapeutic agents Abstract Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) deficiency is the cause of many autoimmune, muscle and bone wasting disorders in humans and animals. Ratite muscle and bone extracts provide a rich source of ATP and regulatory proteins which can be used in treating conditions associated with ATP deficiency. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Inventors: Cardinale Fezler; Donna L. (Rte. 1, Box 97B, Jacksonville, IL 62650) Appl. No.: 907794 Filed: August 8, 1997 Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF3C1D.DE7FD160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
This patent=20 #5,989,594 was approved = on November=20 23, 1999.   Embedded within the patent are the direct = pathways from=20 various pesticides and herbicides to ATP depletion and autoimmune=20 disorders.  The rebuttal contains far more, but it is not = published with=20 the patent. 
 
http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=3DPTO1&Sect2= =3DHITOFF&d=3DPALL&p=3D1&u=3D/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=3D1&= amp;f=3DG&l=3D50&s1=3D'5989594'.WKU.&OS=3DPN/5989594&RS=3D= PN/5989594
 
Ratite=20 extracts as therapeutic agents

Abstract

Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) deficiency is the cause of many = autoimmune,=20 muscle and bone wasting disorders in humans and animals. Ratite=20 muscle and bone extracts provide a rich source of ATP and regulatory = proteins=20 which can be used in treating conditions associated with ATP = deficiency.


Inventors: Cardinale Fezler; Donna L. = (Rte. 1,=20 Box 97B, Jacksonville, IL 62650)
Appl. No.: = 907794
Filed: August 8,=20 1997

 

 

 

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL =

http://www.rhealiving.com

 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF3C1D.DE7FD160-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 22:27:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02253 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA18631 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:54:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18598 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id KAA15516 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:48:06 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id LAA30057 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:19:24 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912020319.LAA30057@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 02 Dec 99 09:58:46 Subject: ge/conventional corn prices To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 497 I need the following info badly, and I hope some people on this list can help. Even sample or indicative current prices or price ranges are enough: - the buying price of Bt corn seed - the buying price of typical conventional corn seed - the selling price of Bt corn grain - the selling price of conventional corn grain Retail/wholesale does not matter (as long as the prices are comparable). Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 1 23:13:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03186 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15455 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:34:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15328 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com (rnn@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09580 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (rnn@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA02979 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:31:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:31:53 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: INFOTERRA: (Fwd) taro patches Palau (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 Forwarded by: Anila.Shah@unep.org Forwarded to: Amelia.Onyango@unep.org Date forwarded: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:29:02 +0300 From: "Judy Dean" To: Subject: taro patches Palau Date sent: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:03:50 +0900 Do you have any information on rehabilitation of taro patches for island nations like Palau. seawater intrusion has caused many women to abandon their taro patches.. what can they do? ------- End of forwarded message ------- _________________________________________ Amelia Onyango(Amelia.Onyango@unep.org)Ms| Query Response Assistant | Communications and Public Information | | United Nations Environment Programme | P.O. Box 30552, Nairobi, Kenya | Fax (254-2) 623927 | Tel.(254-2) 623115 | _________________________________________| - message sent by infoterra@cedar.univie.ac.at to signoff from the list, send an email to majordomo@cedar.univie.ac.at the message body should read unsubscribe infoterra your@email.address - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:22:32 +0300 From: Amelia.Onyango@UNEP.ORG To: infoterra@cedar.univie.ac.at Cc: jdean@palaunet.com Subject: INFOTERRA: (Fwd) taro patches Palau Could someone on the list assist my user obtain the desired information. Best regards. Amelia Onyango ------- Forwarded message follows ------- To subscribe to these Lists, send e-mail to: Environmental Review mailto:er-list@rnn.com, Solar Utilities mailto:solar_utilities@rnn.com Building Energy 2000 mailto:be2-subscribe@egroups.com Solar Energy Industries Association mailto:seia-subscribe@topica.com Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA att: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 mailto:newsfeed@rnn.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 2 01:15:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05090 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA09324 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:48:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from svn.net (IDENT:root@svn1.svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09314 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (pm3-112.svn.net [167.160.201.112]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28501 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:41:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: "Andrew Marshall" Subject: NPR and Bt corn Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:49:35 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 Thanks to all of you who responded so quickly with information about the NPR report which included discussion of Bt Corn. I sent much of that information on to the reporter - at the very least, it will provide him with more complete background information on the topic. Again, thanks. michael ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 2 01:48:24 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05450 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00942 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:28:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from svn.net (IDENT:root@svn1.svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00860 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (pm3-129.svn.net [167.160.201.129]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29746; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:20:47 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: Subject: Media Prep. for next round of Organic Rules Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:28:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 500 Rumor has it that the next round of USDA Organic Rules may be issued in mid-January. In preparation for that event, I wanted to suggest that your respective organizations prepare, in advance, a press release or statement which can be then quickly modified and released as soon as the rules are released. My thought is that the sustainable agriculture community will benefit from generating as much coverage of the new rules as possible. Regardless whether the rules turn out to be good, bad, or just plain ugly, the more we can get articles in local, regional and mainstream press, the more we can generate public awareness on both the political process, and for organic farmers and the industry. (look at what the last round generated!) Unless it has already been done (and please tell me if it has), I will start developing a national database of farmers, researchers, sustainable ag. groups, etc - so that when the press does start looking for people to quote (on various aspects of the rule, in various regions, etc) we can be prepared to respond quickly with appropriate contacts. If you're interested, please email me your contact information, along with your organizational affiliation and area(s) of expertise. Please include: Name, job/position, phone, fax, email, website where applicable, and location (city, town, 12 miles northwest of the middle of nowhere, whatever). Many thanks, Michael ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 2 05:34:28 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07138 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA10140 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:08:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta003.topica.com (outmta.topica.com [206.132.75.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10128 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:08:10 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Bhopal--Fifteen Years Later Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 02:05:23 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.673887843-212058698-944129123@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Bhopal--Fifteen Years Later December 2, 1999 Bhopal Survivors Sue Union Carbide Fifteen years after thousands of people were killed in a poison gas leak at a Union Carbide pesticide factory in Bhopal, India, lawyers have filed a class action lawsuit in New York charging the corporation with violating the fundamental human rights of the victims and survivors of the disaster. The toxic gas killed at least 16,000 according to local estimates; tens of thousands continue to suffer. The suit has been filed under the Alien Tort Claims Act that provides for civil remedies for criminal violation of international law by U.S.-based corporations. The lawsuit alleges that Union Carbide "demonstrated a reckless and depraved indifference to human life in the design, operation and maintenance" of the Union Carbide facility in Bhopal. The complaint also charges "that the defendants are liable for fraud and civil contempt for their total failure to comply with the lawful orders of the courts of both the United States and India." The plaintiffs in the case include individual survivors as well as the victims' organizations in Bhopal that have been representing survivors and next-of-kin of victims for the past 15 years. According to news reports, Union Carbide stated that it had not reviewed the suit but that "all personal injury and related claims ... were settled in 1989." At that time, the company paid US$470 million as part of an out-of-court settlement that granted company officials immunity from prosecution. India's supreme court later struck down the immunity clause, but let the settlement stand. The claimants who have received payments have been paid only US$600 for injuries or less than US$3,000 in case of death. Many others have received no compensation. December 2, 1999, marks the fifteenth anniversary of the Bhopal gas disaster. Late that night in 1984, an explosion at the Union Carbide plant released a deadly cocktail of poison gas made up of methyl isocyanante, hydrogen cyanide, monomethyl amine, carbon monoxide and up to 20 other chemicals. The incident occurred during routine maintenance operations at the factory when a large quantity of water entered one of the storage tanks through leaking valves and corroded pipes, triggering a runaway reaction. The wind carried the clouds of gas out over the surrounding community, exposing more than 500,000 people to the poisons. The Bhopal Group for Information and Action (BGIA) and other groups representing the victims say that over 120,000 survivors are still in need of medical attention. Ten to 15 people die each month due to injuries and illness caused by the disaster. Representatives of the groups charge that Union Carbide continues to withhold information on the composition of the leaked gases and their effects on humans. Although such information is needed for proper diagnosis and care, Union Carbide maintains that these facts are trade secrets. Sources: Indian Express News Service, November 16, 1999; Goodkind, Labaton, Rudoff & Sucharow press release, November 15, 1999; Environment News Service, November 16, 1999. Contact: Friends of Bhopal, 44, Sant Kanwar Ram nagar, Berassia Road, Bhopal 462001, India; email shai@vsnl.com. *********************************************** No More Bhopals! The Environmental Health Fund, Earth Rights International, the Pesticide Action Network North America and other environmental and human rights organizations, are releasing a report charging the chemical industry with numerous human rights atrocities in connection with 20th Century environmental disasters. "Beyond the Chemical Century: Restoring Human Rights and Preserving the Fabric of Life in the New Millennium" will be released in 15 countries on the fifteenth anniversary of Bhopal. It shows how the largest chemical corporations have not only degraded the world's ecosystems, but also violated basic human rights: the right to life, health and a livable environment. "The Bhopal disaster is just one example of a much larger pattern of ongoing human rights abuses committed by the chemical industry throughout this century," said attorney Sanford Lewis, the report's primary author. The chemical industry, through cost-cutting, concealment and delay, have damaged millions of lives in the 20th Century. Examples in the report include: ** Union Carbide turned off critical safety mechanisms in the Bhopal plant to save money. Over 16,000 people have died as a result. ** Japan's Chisso Corporation knew for a decade that its mercury-containing waste discharge caused Minamata Disease, which attacks the human nervous system. At least 3,000 died, and over 10,000 survivors continue to live with deteriorated nervous systems. Chisso denied responsibility for victim's suffering. Full text of the report can be accessed at http://www.essential.org/cchw. Source: Environmental Health press release, November 30, 1999. Contact: Sanford Lewis, Strategic Counsel on Corporate Accountability, P.O. Box 79225, Waverly, MA 02479; phone (617) 489-3686; fax (781) 891-6889; email gnproject@earthlink.net =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ Start the new year off right by referring a list to Topica. You'll earn $300 and your list owner friends will thank you. http://www.topica.com/t/9 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 2 14:45:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17320 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:45:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07969 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:16:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from homer.firststreetinternet.com (root@homer.firststreetinternet.com [208.232.44.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07942 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from arielmcc (ip222.albany.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.10.228.222]) by homer.firststreetinternet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA22010 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:13:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3846C439.6B91@fsinter.net> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:10:50 -0500 From: Ariel McCarthy Organization: Regional Farm & Food Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Organic farming workshop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 502 The Regional Farm & Food Project in Albany, NY is offering a rare opportunity to learn from among the best! In their first visit to the Northeast, three of the premier organic vegetable farmers from Wisconsin and Minnesota will be sharing the methods and strategies that support their successful organic enterprises in a 3-day advanced workshop, January 14 - 16 at the Saratoga 4-H Training Center near Saratoga Springs, NY. Workshop leaders Richard de Wilde, David Washburn and Steve Pincus are noted for their education and leadership, having led workshops at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference, University of Wisconsin Agricultural Training Program, the Michael Fields Agricultural Institute and the University of Wisconsin School For Beginning Market Gardeners. Richard DeWilde runs Harmony Hill Farm in Varoquoa, Wisconsin, a 50 acre fruit and vegetable operation. David Washburn operates Red Cardinal Farm in Stillwater, Minnesota. With 13 acres in production, this certified organic vegetable, small fruit and flower operation generates approximately $275,000 in sales. Steve Pincus produces 25 acres of vegetables at Tipi Produce near Madison, Wisconsin. This in-depth workshop is especially relevant to commercial farmers looking to gather more information on successful production, management and marketing systems. The instructors will also help participants identify ways to create a more ecologically sound and satisfying business. Topics to be covered include soil fertility management, cover cropping, beneficial insect habitat, and cultivation, as well as labor, crop planning, record-keeping and analysis for decision making. Instructors will be drawing on personal experience and their own successful businesses to outline particularly effective strategies. The program will allow ample time for informal interaction with the presenters and other participants. The registration fee of $90 - 200 (sliding scale, depending on what is within your means) includes catered natural food lunches and dinners. The program begins at 10am Friday and runs through 3pm Sunday. Attendance is limited to 60, so register early! Low cost overnight accommodations are available. For the workshop brochure or any additional information, please contact Ariel McCarthy at the Regional Farm & Food Project, 148 Central Avenue, Albany, NY 12206; (518) 427-6537; farmandfood@fsinter.net. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 2 15:26:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18701 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00453 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:03:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00440 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11177 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA08551; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm5-1.nidlink.com [216.18.141.8]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA20511; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:00:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912022000.MAA20511@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:03:15 -0800 To: , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Nature Article re Bt Exudates in Soil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 The December 2, 1999 Nature contains a brief communication entitled "Insecticidal toxin in root exudates from Bt corn," by Saxena, Flores and Stotsky, researchers at New York University (full copy in PDF available from Nature at . (We will also post it on Ag BioTech InfoNet under "Environmental Impacts, "Soil Systems," along with this commentary). This report is not likely to generate the attention received by the much-debated Losey et al. Nature article on Bt-pollen and Monarchs, although it certainly should. In a nutshell, the new report finds that a common current Bt-transgenic corn variety exudes Bt toxin through root exudates -- actually, this finding comes as no great surprise, just as the Losey et al. finding that Bt corn pollen can kill Monarchs was not a surprise. But the new report and research documents that the activated Bt toxin is exuded through roots, binds with soil particles, becomes very stable -- persisting in the soil for 243 days, and that it remains active (i.e. toxic) to soil insects for very long periods. Hence, Bt toxin from root exudates will be augmented by toxin in residues from corn plant residues later in the fall and winter. The implications of the findings reported in the new article are largely unknown but could be enormous. Bt comes from a common soil bacterium; to the extent that Bt-transgenic crops significantly enhance the quantity of a particular toxin in soil, there will be impacts on other soil microorganisms and soil microbial communities. These impacts will, in turn effect nutrient cycling and uptake, microbial biocontrol of soil pathogens, and perhaps the development and triggering of the corn plant's immune system. As the authors point out, some of the effects are likely to prove positive and some negative. These impacts may be transitory and insignificant; it is likely they will be major in some soils and systems and not in others; they may prove short-lived and highly cyclic, or they may build overtime, reaching a point in some fields where major and sustained shifts occur in soil microbial communities. They may prove modest compared to the impact of tillage; they may reinforce some of the adverse impacts of tillage, or actually prove a bigger problem in no-till systems. The second reason that the paper is so important is that the next major EPA review of a GMO corn is about to get underway, with commercial introduction planned for crop season 2002, if regulatory approvals are received in time. The new variety is being developed by Dow AgroSciences in cooperation with Pioneer and has been engineered to express a Bt toxin in corn root systems and exudates at levels high enough in order to control the corn rootworm complex, by far the toughest, nastiest set of insect pests corn farmers have to manage. Resistance management will again be a major concern, and again the high dose strategy will almost certainly be a cornerstone of the strategy deployed and the evidence advanced by the company in support of approval. There has been no public discussion or scientific community appraisal of what a Bt-toxin "high dose" for corn rootwrom management will be, but rest assured it will be two or more orders of magnitude higher than the levels analyzed in the just published Nature piece. Proponents of the new Bt-corn technology will correctly point out that corn rootworms are damaging pests in second year corn fields (i.e. a field planted to corn two or more years in a row). In most parts of the corn belt, rotation with soybeans remains an effective cultural practice that lies at the heart of corn rootworm IPM systems, and has for 30 years. But the plot has thickened in recent years -- a new strain or subspecies of the western corn rootworm has adapted around rotation and is causing economic damage in some first year corn fields in parts of the corn belt. Its range is expanding every year and insecticide applications for corn rootwrom control are clearly rising. (For a detailed discussion of this adaptation and overview/references/links to key University of Illinois research on this new problem, see Section D, "Evolving Insect Pest Challenges," page 17 in the January 1999 paper "World Food System Challenges and Opportunities: GMOs, Biodiversity, and Lessons from America's Heartland," accessible at ). Until recently, most of the soil insecticides used to control corn rootworms have met everyone's definition of nasty. Highly toxic carbamate and organophosphate insecticides accounted for the lion's share of acres treated and pounds applied. Most farmers hate handling these insecticides; they pose significant risks to birds, fish, pets, and a range of beneficial organisms. In the last two years, two much safer new insecticides have come on the market. A synthetic pyrethroid product marketed by Zeneca called Force (active ingredient, tefluthrin) is getting rave reviews by farmers and may soon emerge as the product of choice. From an environmental perspective, it is far, far less damaging than the OP and carbamate insecticides it is replacing. EPA's review and approval decision on the new Bt-corn for rootwrom control is going to really put the agency to the test. Without a doubt, there will remain major unresolved issues regarding resistance management and soil microbial community and plant health impacts. In addition, there will be major debates about the actual "benefits" of the technology in light of the availability of cost-effective alternatives. In the meantime and hopefully prior to approval, information is needed on the exact toxin expressed in roots; the level of expression and the temporal dynamics of expression, along with levels in plant tissue and residues; its fate in soil ecosystems under different tillage and planting systems; the impact of the Bt toxins on various beneficial and pathogenic soil microorganisms and arthropods/decomposers. This information will be among that needed in order to determine whether this technology might lead, on balance, to sustained and significant adverse impacts on soil quality and plant health. As the authors state, what goes on underground in a field planted to today's Bt-corn varieties is largely a mystery. Enhance the toxin levels 100- to 1,000-fold and it becomes a mystery of some consequence and immediacy. chuck benbrook Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 2 18:18:39 1999 -0500 Received: from condor.colombianet.net (root@condor.colombianet.net [63.65.214.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23391 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from palma.cipav.org.co (IDENT:bin@palma.cipav.org.co [63.65.214.77]) by condor.colombianet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18766; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bin@localhost) by palma.cipav.org.co (8.8.7/8.8.7) with TULP id SAA24081; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:11:21 -0500 Received: from iguana.telesat.com.co ([208.221.130.14]) by palma.cipav.org.co (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23562 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:40:11 -0500 Received: from wwf.org.co (wwf [63.71.208.32]) by iguana.telesat.com.co (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26182 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:36:37 -0500 (Etc/GMT) Received: from arrayan.wwf.org.co (IDENT:postfix@arrayan.wwf.org.co [192.168.0.10]) by wwf.org.co (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19420 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:25:10 -0500 Received: from birch (samanea.wwf.org.co [192.168.0.1]) by arrayan.wwf.org.co (Postfix) with SMTP id 63EF49576 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:22:21 -0500 (COT) From: "Nicholas Waltham" To: Subject: Livestock Research for Rural Development: Volume 11, Number 3, October 1999 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:24:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bf3d14$0b732900$0a01a8c0@birch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by palma.cipav.org.co id RAA23562 Precedence: list Errors-To: nwaltham@yahoo.com Reply-To: nwaltham@yahoo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 ********************************************************** * LIVESTOCK RESEARCH FOR RURAL DEVELOPMENT ANNOUNCEMENTS * ********************************************************** In this message 1. LRRD Current Contents 2. LRRD Discussion Mailing List 3. Adding and removing yourself from this list Dear Reader, Thank you for taking an interest in LRRD. If you think someone else can benefit from this message, then please pass it on. (If you do pass it on to someone else, we would be grateful if you forwarded it with a comment that it comes via you and not directly from us, since it can cause confusion, the final reciever may think he is already on the mailing list) If you ever want to remove yourself from this list, details can be found at the bottom of this mailing. Remember, we are always interested in hearing your views, so please send any comments on how we can improve our journal to lrrd@cipav.org.co. Nicholas Waltham ========================================================== = 1. CURRENT CONTENTS = ========================================================== Livestock Research for Rural Development Volume 11, Number 3, October 1999 PAPERS ====== Animals and values in society; John Hodges http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/hod113.htm Supplementing rice by-products with foliage of Trichanthera gigantea in diets of growing and lactating pigs and fattening ducks; Nguyen Thi Hong Nhan and Nguyen Van Hon http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/nhan113.htm A study on rumen environment and feed degradability in swamp buffaloes fed different supplements; Nguyen Van Thu and T R Preston http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/los113.htm The influence of urban tourism on backyard agriculture: the rabbit as a new guest in the southeast of the Metropolitan area of Mexico City; M Lopez, H Losada, S Sandoval, R Bennett, L Arias, J Rangel, R Soriano and J.Cortes. http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/los113.htm Analysis of the growth and nutritional characteristics of Lablab Purpureus; Andrea M Murphy, Pablo E Colucci and Mario R Padilla http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/colu113.htm Nutritional status of family poultry in Bangladesh; Q M E Huque http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/huq113.htm Observations on family poultry units in parts of Central America and sustainable development opportunities; J G Mallia http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/mal113.htm Ex Ante Analysis of New Forage Alternatives for Farms with Dual-Purpose Cattle in Peru, Costa Rica, and Nicaragua; Federico Holmann http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/hol113.htm Produccion de Brahman y sus cruces por absorcion a Guzera y Nelore en Sabana. 1. Porcentajes de pre~nez, paricion, destete y disponibilidad a dieciocho meses; Jesus Arango, Dieter Plasse, Omar Verde, Hugo Fossi, Rafael Hoogesteijn, Pedro Bastidas y Rafael Rodriguez http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/ara113a.htm Produccion de Brahman y sus cruces por absorcion a Guzera y Nelore en Sabana. 2. Pesos al nacer, destete y 18 meses; Jesus Arango, Dieter Plasse, Omar Verde, Hugo Fossi, Rafael Hoogesteijn, Pedro Bastidas y Rafael Rodriguez http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/ara113b.htm ADMINISTRATIVE ============== Livestock Research for Rural Development Newsletter http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/news113.htm Abstracts http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/abst113.htm List of Editors and Notes for Authors http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd11/3/edit113.htm LRRD Issue Index http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrdhome.html ========================================================== = 2. LRRD DISCUSSION MAILING LIST = ========================================================== Since you are receiving this mailing, you are already on the LRRD Announcements mailing list, however, there is another mailing list which is an open forum to discuss with other readers, the authors (if they have email) and editors the topics raised in the papers published in the journal Details of how to join the discussion group can be found on: http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/idiscuss.htm ========================================================== = 3. ADDING AND REMOVING YOURSELF FROM THIS LIST = ========================================================== Details of how to add yourself to the list can be found on http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/invit.htm If you want to remove yourself from this list, send a message to listserv@cipav.org.co with the one line message signoff lrrdannounce ===========================END============================ From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 2 23:20:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29086 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17430 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:58:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17424 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-4.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.4]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:55:30 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:53:23 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5912.991202@acnet.net> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Agrarian Reform and Development in the XXI Century - Anyone going from this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 Hi sanet-mg subscribers, Agrarian Reform and Development in the XXI Century - that's the name of an event beginning this coming Monday in the city of Puebla, capital of the State of Puebla, Mexico; a 2 hour drive from where I sit. Anyone going from this list? The Convocation lists the U. of Wisconsin as among the participants, as well as (in Spanish, as the English part is still under construction at the events website and it's simple enough to figure out - i.e -BM is World Bank, BID is InterAmerican Development Bank, etc.): Banco Mundial BM Organización para la Agricultura y la Alimentación FAO Comisión Económica para América Latina de las Naciones Unidas CEPAL Facultad Latinoamericana de Ciencias Sociales FLACSO Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo BID Diversos centros de investigación y universidades nacionales y extranjeras. The list of countries attending or invited is also long and some of the Panels themes look good. If there's a way to participate (not observe) I may go. The URL: http://www.coloquio.gob.mx/ Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net Todo el mundo cabe en una tasita, sabiendlo acomodar. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 03:41:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02041 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16507 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:06:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from panther.info.bw (IDENT:root@panther.info.bw [168.167.209.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA16476 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:05:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ar (ppp208.info.bw [168.167.210.108] (may be forged)) by panther.info.bw (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24422 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:58:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199912030758.JAA24422@panther.info.bw> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Andrea Rother" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:16:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Post Doctoral Fellow in Sustainable Agriculture Reply-to: ar@info.bw X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id DAA16478 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 506 For Your Information. - Andrea Rother ______________________________ CIMMYT International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center (CIMMYT) Post-Doctoral Fellow in Sustainable Agriculture The International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center (CIMMYT) and CIRAD (International Cooperation Center in Agronomic Research for Development, France), in collaboration with INIFAP (Mexican National Agronomic, Forestry and Livestock Research Institute), seeks a Post-Doctoral Fellow to work in CIMMYT's Natural Resources Group to help develop and assess maize cropping systems that feature conservation tillage and cover crops. The position is for two years, and will be based in Morelia, the capital of the state of Michoacán (300 km west of Mexico City). The successful candidate will be responsible for establishing and monitoring long-term cropping system trials; monitoring farmers' fields and farmers' experiments; testing planting equipment for conservation tillage, analyzing biophysical processes at work in cereal-legume intercrops; assessing short- and long-term changes in soil fertility and soil health; and helping analyze and synthesize worldwide experiences with conservation tillage, rotations and cover crops. Applicants should possess a Ph.D. or a M.Sc. in agronomy or soil science with three to five years of relevant professional experience. Apart from those skills required for conducting high-quality strategic and applied agronomic research, other desirable skills include: demonstrated capacity for independent work; practical field research experience with farmers; experience in training of researchers, technicians and farmers; and previous work experience in Latin America. The successful candidate will also possess excellent communication skills in both English and Spanish; demonstrated ability to work in an interdisciplinary and inter-institutional team; and sensitivity to diverse cultures and nationalities. CIMMYT is an internationally funded, non-profit research and training organization headquartered in Mexico and affiliated with the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research (CGIAR). The Center's mission is to help the poor by increasing the productivity, profitability, and sustainability of maize- and wheat-based cropping systems while protecting natural resources. CIMMYT has an annual budget of approximately US$34 million, and a staff of over 800 based in Mexico and 17 other countries. CIMMYT is an equal-opportunity employer and strives for staff diversity in gender and nationality. The Center makes an effort to accommodate the needs of dual-career couples. The Center's salaries and benefits are competitive with those of other international institutions. Further information about CIMMYT and the CGIAR can be obtained via the Internet at http://www.cimmyt.mx, http://www.cimmyt.cgiar.org or http://www.cgiar.org. To apply, please send a letter of application with your recent curriculum vitae, including address and fax number, and arrange to have letters of recommendation sent from three references to the address below by January 30, 2000 (Reference code 9907) or until the position is filled. For technical information please contact Dr. Bernard Triomphe, CIRAD-CIMMYT, (e-mail: b.triomphe@cgiar.org) Human Resources Manager Reference Code 9907 CIMMYT Lisboa 27, Apdo. Postal 6-641 Mexico, D.F. 06600 Mexico Phone: (525) 804-2004; Fax: (525) 804-7558/9 Email: jobs@cgiar.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 07:01:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04084 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA01736 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:46:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA01580 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14351 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:43:26 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00298 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:46:20 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 3 Dec 99 12:38:00 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 3 Dec 99 12:37:46 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:37:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: forward from alt.agriculture Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <36091982E51@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id GAA01612 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 507 ----------------------------- Subject: new site -- cover crops From: evb@magi.com (Edwinna von Baeyer) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:53:35 -0500 Please visit the the International Development Research Centre's new WWW pages: Cover Crops for Sustainable Agriculture http://www.idrc.ca/institution/cover_crop/index_e.html It contains research on cover crops for sustainable agriculture developed or published by the Exploration of Cover Crops for Sustainable Agriculture by the International Development Research Centre in Ottawa, Canada. Thanking you, Edwinna von Baeyer -- Edwinna von Baeyer ** EvB Communications Ottawa, Canada evb@magi.com infoweb.magi.com/~evb/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 09:55:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06359 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27833 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:21:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27745 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16364 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:18:40 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (LUFA.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02333 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:21:35 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 3 Dec 99 15:13:14 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 3 Dec 99 15:12:22 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:12:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: wheat variety/strain Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <36325594089@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 anybody has ever heard of a wheat (not sure, if it is a variety) named CAMUTH ? KAMUTH ? CAMMUT ? CAMOUTH ? (spelling also unknown) what is so special about it? and where is his origin ? america ? asia ? klaus Klaus Wiegand Landwirtschaftl. Untersuchungs- u. Forschungsanstalt (LUFA) (Governm. Inst. for Agricult. & Environm. Res.) 67346 Speyer, Obere Langgasse 40 (GERMANY) Dept. of Seed Sci., Microscop. Analysis & Plant Pathol. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 11:01:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07553 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08033 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07958 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:45:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21589; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19692; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19688; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:42 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: Klaus Wiegand cc: sanet Subject: Re: wheat variety/strain In-Reply-To: <36325594089@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 Hey Klaus... Kamut is a small grain that is sold in most American natural food stores. It is similar in appearance to durum wheat with very large amber caryopses. I believe that only one company in the US contracts all the kamut that is commercially grown in the world (they had a web site the last time I looked ~ 2 years ago). The story goes that an American service man mysteriously obtained a pocketful of kamut seeds while in Egypt during WW II. He returned home to his familys farm in the US north central plains and grew out the seeds until he had enough to sell. Two years ago, I planted a small plot of it in late September on my familys land in Maryland, USA. I obtained the seed from a bulk bin at a natural food store. It grew vigorously with wide blades similar in appearance to oats but winter killed when the temps dropped down below about -20 C. I believe that it is grown as a spring wheat in Montana/the Dakotas. Kamut is delicious cooked as a whole grain like rice. I am planning to plant some more at my parents place this spring. Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 11:06:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07663 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06188 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:43:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smta-hub-2.CGNET.COM (smta-hub-2.cgnet.com [198.93.224.234]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06088 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from csi.cgnet.com ([192.156.137.135]) by smta-hub-2.cgnet.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #40179) with ESMTP id <0FM600FCM8URN7@smta-hub-2.cgnet.com> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabihubex.cabi.org by CSI.CGNET.COM (PMDF V5.1-10 #18290) with SMTP id <01JJ22FYWSPY0011NS@CSI.CGNET.COM>; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.93.224.54 by cabihubex.cabi.org (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:47:39 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by cabihubex.cabi.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:47:39 -0800 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:30:39 -0800 From: "Anton Doroszenko (TL, Fld Crp)" Subject: RE: wheat variety/strain To: "'Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Message-id: <9BDA45A9E96FD211AD7700104BC3404EAC0AB2@cabic_exch> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 510 Kamut is Triticum turgidum subsp. turanicum [T. turanicum], also called Khorasan wheat. According to the literature Khorasan flour has high yellow semolina yields and produces pasta comparable in quality to superior durums, but high lipoxygenase content could be a problem. A paper that discusses the origins, agronomy and utilization of kamut is Stallknecht, G. F., Gilbertson, K. M. and Ranney, J. E. (1996) Alternative wheat cereals as food grains: einkorn, emmer, spelt, kamut, and triticale. In: Progress in new crops: Proceedings of the Third National Symposium, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA, 22-25 October, 1996 [edited by Janick, J.]. Published by American Society for Horticultural Science. pp. 156-170 Anton Doroszenko CAB International > -----Original Message----- > From: Klaus Wiegand [SMTP:WIEGAND@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de] > Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:12 PM > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: wheat variety/strain > > > anybody has ever heard of a wheat (not sure, if it is a variety) > named > > CAMUTH ? KAMUTH ? CAMMUT ? CAMOUTH ? (spelling also unknown) > > what is so special about it? and where is his origin ? america ? > asia ? > > > > klaus > > > Klaus Wiegand > Landwirtschaftl. Untersuchungs- u. Forschungsanstalt (LUFA) > (Governm. Inst. for Agricult. & Environm. Res.) > 67346 Speyer, Obere Langgasse 40 (GERMANY) > Dept. of Seed Sci., Microscop. Analysis & Plant Pathol. > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 11:16:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07901 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13378 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:58:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13374 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dewitt.iastate.edu (dewitt.agron.iastate.edu [129.186.20.17]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02097; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:55:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991203095055.013a1b90@exnet.iastate.edu> X-Sender: x1dewitt@exnet.iastate.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:50:55 -0600 To: Joel Brooks Gruver , Klaus Wiegand From: Jerry DeWitt Subject: Re: wheat variety/strain Cc: sanet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 511 Kamut in the US? Check with Bob Quinn, Big Sandy, Montana. He is a grower, promoter, miller, and marketer for US Kamut. Jerry DeWitt Iowa State University Extension To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 11:59:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08844 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28572 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:36:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28545 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:36:28 -0500 (EST) From: organic-harvest@juno.com Received: (from organic-harvest@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id ESW7B9ES; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:33:04 EST To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:40:13 -0500 Subject: Apprentice Position Message-ID: <19991203.104015.-887629.0.organic-harvest@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,11-12,14-21 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 512 Greetings We have started an organic pasture based dairy, bottle our milk and sell in stores in Columbia and Kansas City. We are considering setting up an apprentice position in which the apprentice would learn pasture management, milking, herd management, milk processing, marketing, delivery, etc. Any ideas on how to structure this position and find an exceptional apprentice? One big obstacle we face is that we have no housing for an apprentice at present. Creative solutions to this problem would be gratefully appreciated. Let us hear of your ideas and other people or groups that might offer further enlightenment. Thanks Barb Buchmayer Green Hills Harvest 14649 Hwy M Purdin MO 64674 660-244-5858 ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 12:31:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09775 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07910 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:56:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f60.hotmail.com [216.32.181.60]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07892 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23272 invoked by uid 0); 3 Dec 1999 16:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19991203165307.23271.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.33.21.124 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:53:07 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.33.21.124] From: "Matthew Champagne" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: re: do-it-yourself breeding Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:53:07 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 Dear sanetters: I usually just peruse the sanet posts from the safety of the archives room, but to me this thread seems so important that I just couldn't let it be cut short (and my apologies if to the majority it seems like an old/cold discussion as far as the list goes). Dale wrote: >>Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and organized >>enough to come up with superior varieties, what is >>wrong with my protecting them from people who would steal >>them? Don't I have a right to earn a living? Roberto replied: >Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you >mean, steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, >didn't you? Once you release your breeding results, they're >back to the public pool, and the public is entitled to use them. >That's what all farmers have been doing. Earning a living has >nothing to do with stealing from the public pool. Dale replied: >>Breeders take publicly available genetic resources and use them as >>raw >>material to breed improved varieties. They do this by sexually >> >>recombining existing varieties, often adding in exotic breeding >> >>material from public collections. Hidden diversity is made manifest >> >>by crossing and selfing. Finding the few genetic combinations that >> >>are truly better than existing varieties is very difficult and >> >>expensive. >>Imagine dealing out hands of cards, but instead of a deck of 52, >>using a >>deck of 52,000. So you deal out (with replacement), say, >>20,000 hands, >>each with thousands of cards. only a very, very few of >>these are winning >>hands. Each hand is analogous to a line produced >>by selfing the progeny >>of a cross. You cannot just LOOK at the hand, >>you have to grow plots of >>each one and compare its yield (and other >>agronomic properties) to >>existing varieties to see if it is a >>winner. This is done at hundreds of >>locations around the world to >>gain enough confidence in the comparisons, >>and determine adaptation. >>This is a lot of work, and it is possible to >>steal a variety. >>So the varieties we come up with are truly new, not stolen from the >> >>public pool. The resources, the raw material, is still there. Do you >> >>want some of these varieties? you can get them from the USDA: Dale's reasoning seems (as usual) fairly solid, but what is being proved? That sexual recombination in plant breeding is difficult? Yes. That it is expensive? OK. That it requires organization of people and across space? Definitely. That difficult, expensive, and complex necessitates privatization is I think an unwarranted conclusion. That it was nevertheless held to be a conclusion implicit in the argument is I think indicative of the box which tends to limit our (U.S. citizens') thinking. Can we organize, pool resources, solve difficult problems by means other than the market (politics comes to mind)? And are there problems more appropriate to these 'other' means? Is the discovery of new plant and animal varieties for food, medicine, companionship (pets), etc. one of these problems? Although it might be responded that individual rights are what's at stake (Dale: 'if I (sic) am smart and organized enough'), and that these individual rights are best respected by private ownership, I would object again that the argument is based on status-quo assumptions, namely that the public domain has already been defined as the raw material of the plant breeder and does not extend to the results of her/his work. How to rethink these assumptions? It seems to me that the notion of organization gets us beyond a concrete individualism from the very beginning (what does it mean to say 'I (sic) am organized enough'?), and along these same lines I would venture that plant breeding is by 'nature' a collective process involving generations of both human and plant individuals in which the question of 'ownership' should be dealt with very carefully. As far as the rhetorical questions mentioned above, of course I have my opinions, and I would refer both Dale and others to the literature on collective/common pool resources for help in the formation of theirs: James Acheson for the economically oriented or anything by Vandanna Shiva for those ready for a radical challenge. (Please note that I'm just on a short break from (academic) field-work and won't be near a computer again for some time; i.e. I won't be able to reply anytime soon to any further weaving of this thread). Sincerely, Matt Champagne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 14:32:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12478 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11261 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:15:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11244 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-122.rain.org [198.68.144.122]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 537471DD12; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:12:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006001bf3dc2$284dcb80$7a9044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , "Jan" , References: Subject: Re: "natural" miticide Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:10:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 514 once I could not buy nematodes because it contained 1/10 of 1% biocide. so u can call it splitting hairs if you like organic means no synthetics to most of us. I would like to ask will the Protection Act H.R.1504 and S. 910 hurt organic growers. there is so much going on right now with the WTO and GMO labeling I hope these don't slip by. Do u all think this protection act will it greatly limit access to biological control alternatives and increase GMO and pesticide use ? Will this Act slow down even more the Food Quality Protection Act (FQPA} . check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Hjeljord" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:58 AM Subject: Re: "natural" miticide > >>I don¥t understand the distinction between "natural" and "artificial" > >>chemicals, much less "organic" vs. whatever. > > > >It may sound like an issue of splitting hairs. A product, like spinosad, > >for instance, can be made by a fermentation process and be 100 > >% natural. HOWEVER, when formulating this into a spray, or dust, or > >whatever, other non-organic carriers may be added. This then renders the > >"organic" product "synthetic". This is why California, and Israel, and I > >don't know how many other countries, removed the spinosad products from the > >approved list of organic pesticides. > > > I´m not familiar with the spinosad products, but generally speaking, is a > biocontrol agent or product approvable as an organic pesticide as long as > it consists of or is derived from living organisms and is not formulated > with synthetic carriers? If the origin of such an introduced agent or > fermentation product is exotic, we can´t really say it is natural, > ecologically speaking, but organic, yes. > > Is there actually any agreement as to which biological control measures are > acceptable to "ecological" and "organic" farmers? > > Linda > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 14:46:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12708 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19502 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:29:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19467 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:23:39 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:58:18 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:58:16 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A005E@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Matthew Champagne'" Subject: RE: do-it-yourself breeding Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:58:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 515 Matthew, > ...this thread seems so important that I just couldn't let > it be cut short... I agree. This is a very important issue that I think is poorly understood by the activist community. > Roberto replied: >> Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you >> mean, steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, >> didn't you? Once you release your breeding results, they're >> back to the public pool, and the public is entitled to use them. >> That's what all farmers have been doing. Earning a living has >> nothing to do with stealing from the public pool. > Dale replied: >> Breeders take publicly available genetic resources and use >> them as raw material to breed improved varieties...(snip) >> So the varieties we come up with are truly new, not stolen >> from the public pool. The resources, the raw material, is >> still there. Matthew wrote: > Dale's reasoning seems (as usual) fairly solid, but what is > being proved? That sexual recombination in plant breeding is > difficult? Roberto seemed to think that we simply take existing varieties from the public domain and patent them. My point was that what is being patented or PVP'd is a particular use of publicly available resources. The resources are not consumed by this use. The value lies in how they are put together. > That difficult, expensive, and complex necessitates privatization > is I think an unwarranted conclusion. That it was nevertheless > held to be a conclusion implicit in the argument... Not at all! My point was not that privatization is efficient (though it is), and it was not that privatization is necessary (I agree, it is not). My point was that privatization of cultivar development is ethical, as ethical as, say, manufacturing refrigerators, or farming your own land. > Can we organize, pool resources, solve difficult problems > by means other than the market (politics comes to mind)? Sure, go ahead. You have complete freedom to do that, and it is in no way impeded by private plant breeding. > And are there problems more appropriate to these 'other' > means? Is the discovery of new plant and animal varieties > for food, medicine, companionship (pets), etc. one of > these problems? Do you STILL not understand? Did Edison discover the light bulb? Did Ford discover the automobile? We don't "discover" new plant varieties, we make them. > Although it might be responded that individual rights are > what's at stake... and that these individual rights are best > respected by private ownership, I would object > again that the argument is based on status-quo assumptions, > namely that the public domain has already been defined as the > raw material of the plant breeder and does not extend to the > results of her/his work. Why should the results of anyones work be taken and placed in the public domain? This is Socialism pure and simple. I respect that position, but I think it goes beyond this particular debate. But this is currently not so black and white (see below). > How to rethink these assumptions? It seems to me that the notion > of organization gets us beyond a concrete individualism from the > very beginning (what does it mean to say 'I (sic) am organized > enough'?), and along these same lines I would venture that plant > breeding is by 'nature' a collective process involving > generations of both human and plant individuals in which the > question of 'ownership' should be dealt with very carefully. I agree. The breeding enterprise (public AND private) has worked like a gigantic recurrent selection system, and improved private germplasm always leaks out eventually into the public domain, to serve as raw material for new cycles. This is a public good. I think there is room for this to continue, but this big grey area is beginning to crystallize as we gain new molecular and statistical tools. Probably, companies don't mind such leakage occurring (via hybrids, with a lag time of several years). What we don't like (and what is in the courts now) is competitors chasing selfs in our seed, stealing the product of our labor. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 15:09:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13194 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22501 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:38:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu (dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu [157.182.140.74]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22464 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default ([157.182.7.157]) by dogwood.telcom.wvu.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/JLF-19981102) with ESMTP id OAA03065; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991203142418.009cf4f0@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jlozier@wvu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:32:09 -0500 To: "Matthew Champagne" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: John Lozier Subject: re: do-it-yourself breeding In-Reply-To: <19991203165307.23271.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 516 I'd like to say thanks, Matt, for the thoughtful post. I agree the privatizing of commonwealth resources cannot be granted simply because it is claimed. Property exists only because of social agreement in support of legitimate legal concepts and sanctions. Contrary to popular belief, possession is not nine parts of the law. If it were, then renters and borrowers would be owners. John Lozier West Virginia University At 08:53 AM 12/3/99 -0800, Matthew Champagne wrote: >Dear sanetters: > >I usually just peruse the sanet posts from the safety of the archives >room, but to me this thread seems so important that I just couldn't let it >be cut short (and my apologies if to the majority it seems like an >old/cold discussion as far as the list goes). > >Dale wrote: > >>>Okay, Okay! lets deal with this head on. If I am smart and organized >>>enough to come up with superior varieties, what is >>>wrong with my protecting them from people who would steal >>>them? Don't I have a right to earn a living? > >Roberto replied: >>Yes, it is good to deal with this issue head on. What do you >>mean, steal them? You took the varieties from the public pool, >>didn't you? Once you release your breeding results, they're >>back to the public pool, and the public is entitled to use them. >>That's what all farmers have been doing. Earning a living has >>nothing to do with stealing from the public pool. > >Dale replied: >>>Breeders take publicly available genetic resources and use them as >>raw >>>material to breed improved varieties. They do this by >>>sexually >>recombining existing varieties, often adding in exotic >>>breeding >>material from public collections. Hidden diversity is made >>>manifest >>by crossing and selfing. Finding the few genetic combinations >>>that >>are truly better than existing varieties is very difficult >>>and >>expensive. > >>>Imagine dealing out hands of cards, but instead of a deck of 52, >>using >>>a deck of 52,000. So you deal out (with replacement), say, >>20,000 >>>hands, each with thousands of cards. only a very, very few of >>these >>>are winning hands. Each hand is analogous to a line produced >>by >>>selfing the progeny of a cross. You cannot just LOOK at the hand, >>you >>>have to grow plots of each one and compare its yield (and >>>other >>agronomic properties) to existing varieties to see if it is >>>a >>winner. This is done at hundreds of locations around the world >>>to >>gain enough confidence in the comparisons, and determine >>>adaptation. >>This is a lot of work, and it is possible to steal a variety. > >>>So the varieties we come up with are truly new, not stolen from >>>the >>public pool. The resources, the raw material, is still there. Do >>>you >>want some of these varieties? you can get them from the USDA: > >Dale's reasoning seems (as usual) fairly solid, but what is being proved? >That sexual recombination in plant breeding is difficult? Yes. That it >is expensive? OK. That it requires organization of people and across >space? Definitely. > >That difficult, expensive, and complex necessitates privatization is I >think an unwarranted conclusion. That it was nevertheless held to be a >conclusion implicit in the argument is I think indicative of the box which >tends to limit our (U.S. citizens') thinking. Can we organize, pool >resources, solve difficult problems by means other than the market >(politics comes to mind)? >And are there problems more appropriate to these 'other' means? Is the >discovery of new plant and animal varieties for food, medicine, >companionship (pets), etc. one of these problems? > >Although it might be responded that individual rights are what's at stake >(Dale: 'if I (sic) am smart and organized enough'), and that these >individual rights are best respected by private ownership, I would object >again that the argument is based on status-quo assumptions, namely that >the public domain has already been defined as the raw material of the >plant breeder and does not extend to the results of her/his work. How to >rethink these assumptions? It seems to me that the notion of organization >gets us beyond a concrete individualism from the very beginning (what does >it mean to say 'I (sic) am organized enough'?), and along these same lines >I would venture that plant breeding is by 'nature' a collective process >involving generations of both human and plant individuals in which the >question of 'ownership' should be dealt with very carefully. > >As far as the rhetorical questions mentioned above, of course I have my >opinions, and I would refer both Dale and others to the literature on >collective/common pool resources for help in the formation of theirs: >James Acheson for the economically oriented or anything by Vandanna Shiva >for those ready for a radical challenge. > >(Please note that I'm just on a short break from (academic) >field-work and won't be near a computer again for some time; i.e. I won't >be able to reply anytime soon to any further weaving of this thread). > >Sincerely, > >Matt Champagne > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 16:50:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15568 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15880 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:13:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15876 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991203211029.YAUP11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: <38483306.5DCA15A8@home.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:15:50 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: natural miticides-essential (organic) oils References: <199912031939.OAA22751@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 517 IMO Callitris intratropica (Blue Cedar) Eucalyptus radiata Mlaleuca alternifolia (Tea Tree Oil) Melaleuca ericifolia Melaleuca quinquenervia, cineole-type tree oil To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 16:57:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15667 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA25634 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25625 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24255; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA12305; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12301; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:26:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:26:28 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: sanet cc: jcoate01@emerald.tufts.edu Subject: impact of soil biology on crop nutritional quality Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 518 Hello to all, During a discussion of possible term paper topics, one of my students mentioned that she was intrigued by the potential for using genetic engineering to increase the nutritional quality of staple crops. I told her that being that my class is an exploration of the ecology of agriculture, she would need to find a way to discuss interactions between species within the context of crop nutritional quality. She is interested in investigating crop nutritional quality as a function of a crops genetic potential for nutritional quality and interactions with species such as rhizosphere colonists, soil fauna, above ground or below ground herbivory, pathogens...etc.... I think that these types of relationships are really much more important than generalized contrasts of production systems such as conventional vs. organic. We would appreciate any insights on the impact of multi-species interactions on crop content of nutritional components such as calories, protein, lipids, vitamins, phytochemicals or minerals. Thanks in advance, Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 17:00:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15733 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24975 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:25:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f209.hotmail.com [216.32.181.209]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA24910 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 73095 invoked by uid 0); 3 Dec 1999 21:22:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19991203212219.73094.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.33.21.120 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:22:19 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.33.21.120] From: "Matthew Champagne" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: do-it-yourself breeding Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:22:19 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 519 Dear sanetters: Dale and I wrote (with snips): > > Can we organize, pool resources, solve difficult problems > > by means other than the market (politics comes to mind)? > >Sure, go ahead. You have complete freedom to do that, and it is in no way >impeded by private plant breeding. Is this true? I would argue that it is precisely the tendency of the 'privatization of life-forms' to inhibit our (sic) freedom to do that. It seems to do this by various mechanisms, one of which is the discursive equation (like Dale's) of life forms with refrigerators. I think the whole hubbabaloo around the 'terminator' gene speaks both to this tendency of privatization towards control/monopoly and to the very real feelings of people throughout the world of being 'impeded' by this very tendency. > > > And are there problems more appropriate to these 'other' > > means? Is the discovery of new plant and animal varieties > > for food, medicine, companionship (pets), etc. one of > > these problems? > >Do you STILL not understand? Did Edison discover the light bulb? Did Ford >discover the automobile? We don't "discover" new plant varieties, we make >them. 'Understanding' is exactly what I'm trying to do (and contribute towards. The equation life form=refrigerator seems in part to be based on this distinction between 'discovering' and 'making'. I think it apparent that I would not draw the line at the same place Dale would, but he is probably right in that it is an ethical problem (he regards seed patenting as ethically sound). Of course, it is for this very reason that I make the appeal to a political process rather than an economic one for the arbitration of this line. I would say that the grey area also consists in terms like resources (public domain resources not being 'used up') that are used as if they were transparent. Were these resources 'made' or 'discovered'? Or was the distinction simply not so well placed, ownership not so strictly delimited, when corn, for example, was 'domesticated', 'discovered', 'created'? (We might reflect here on Columbus's 'discovery' of America, and the ownership it implied for the Spanish crown). Dale may be basing his distinction on a change in breeding techniques (from selection to recombination?) which presumably corresponds to a change in intellectual processes (more individualized?), but I'm not so sure that's not also an arbitrarily placed line. (Please excuse me if I'm misrepresenting, just trying to further the dialogue.) In any case it's an historical question that can't be answered for being anachronistic (who 'invented' corn?). We should instead probably reformulate the question, along with our epistemology. A suggestion: In the problematic of genetics we find such materialist arguments (e.g., certain things [resources] are just *there* for the taking) dissolving and I think we could approach the problem more fruitfully from the perspective of information ownership and control. Under this perspective we can make more fruitful equations, such as plant varieties with musical compositions within a discussion on intellectual property rights. If our goal is diversity (in both music and plantlife), what regime of ownership would be more conducive to that goal? Of course diversity is not the only goal -- musicians and plant breeders have their own certainly, and we have more broadly economic and productive goals as well -- but nevertheless it is an important one and one which I think private ownership does not respond to very well. Perhaps a stricter (shorter) temporal limit on copyright/patents? (See the concept of 'leaking' below). > > > Although it might be responded that individual rights are > > what's at stake... and that these individual rights are best > > respected by private ownership, I would object > > again that the argument is based on status-quo assumptions, > > namely that the public domain has already been defined as the > > raw material of the plant breeder and does not extend to the > > results of her/his work. > >Why should the results of anyones work be taken and placed in the public >domain? This is Socialism pure and simple. >I respect that position, nice save, but dangerously close to red-baiting >but I >think it goes beyond this particular debate. On the contrary, this *is* the debate. >> But this is currently not so >black and white (see below). Agreed. And I don't pretend that I would prefer 'everything for everybody and nothing for me' or anything of the sort. But I do think the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the discussion over GMO's and the patenting of life-forms is probably the place to begin rethinking where this somewhere is, far beyond cold-war politics. > > > How to rethink these assumptions? It seems to me that the notion > > of organization gets us beyond a concrete individualism from the > > very beginning (what does it mean to say 'I (sic) am organized > > enough'?), and along these same lines I would venture that plant > > breeding is by 'nature' a collective process involving > > generations of both human and plant individuals in which the > > question of 'ownership' should be dealt with very carefully. > >I agree. The breeding enterprise (public AND private) has worked like a >gigantic recurrent selection system, and improved private germplasm always >leaks out eventually into the public domain, to serve as raw material for >new cycles. This is a public good. I think there is room for this to >continue, but this big grey area is beginning to crystallize as we gain new >molecular and statistical tools. Probably, companies don't mind such >leakage occurring (via hybrids, with a lag time of several years). What we >don't like (and what is in the courts now) is competitors chasing selfs in >our seed, stealing the product of our labor. > >Dale IMO 'leaked out' and 'probably don't mind' are not ways of carefully dealing with the problem of ownership. As far as the 'new molecular and statistical tools' are concerned, the question is whether they're being used to better (ethics!!) arbitrate the line between public and private, made and discovered, 'natural' and 'human', or instead to simply extend private ownership in space and time on the basis of its assumed universally superior efficiency (efficient for what? feeding populations? polluting atmospheres?). Thanks for the insights, now I've got to go and pack, Matt Champagne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 18:49:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17714 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12371 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:33:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ns.rockbridge.net (ns.rockbridge.net [206.151.4.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12352 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:33:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.151.5.34] by ns.rockbridge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59513U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:24:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:29:24 -0400 Subject: Dairy apprentice From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19991203232434482.AAE663@ns.rockbridge.net@[206.151.5.34]> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 520 > > Any ideas on how to structure this position and find an exceptional > apprentice? One big obstacle we face is that we have no housing for an > apprentice at present. Creative solutions to this problem would be > gratefully appreciated. > > Let us hear of your ideas and other people or groups that might offer > further enlightenment. > > Thanks > > Barb Buchmayer > Green Hills Harvest > 14649 Hwy M > Purdin MO 64674 > 660-244-5858 > ___________________________________________________________________ Hi Barb, congratulations on starting up a most difficult yet promising farm enterprise. I think the only way to make a significant net profit in dairying today is with a organic, seasonal, grass-based dairy that pasteurizes and bottles for local sales. We are in the throes of making that decision on our farm, primarily for the income, secondarily to utilize the excellent forage that results from rotational grazing layers, broilers and turkeys. To get good apprenticeship applicants I recommend ATTRA, they have an excellent listing, as well as Missouri Alternative Crops. To provide housing, we do it one of three ways. One is to pay a wage large enough to enable the apprentice to rent off-farm housing. $6 per hour is what we figure it takes to get a good apprentice when he or she has to live off-farm. Or, build a tiny house next to your house, sans bathroom and kitchen, and let them share your bath and kitchen. In this case we pay $100 per week plus cottage and food from the farm. Third, we have a small apartment in our walk-out basement that is quite cozy with a bathroom, wood stove and gas wall heater, and a kitchenette made up of a small fridge, a two-burner hot plate, a toaster oven and a folding table and chairs. This is where our farm manager currently resides until we can build a tiny house for him. Our farm manager and apprentices are on their own for breakfast and lunch, and share dinners with us, all taking turns cooking and dishwashing. Finally, I am traveling to Missouri in February to do a workshop and would like to arrange a visit to your farm. Is that possible? Regards, Andy Lee Good Earth Farm School Buena Vista, Virginia 540-261-8775 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 20:16:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19296 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:16:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24881 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:42:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24820 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:42:50 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.250]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:40:23 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991203182521.00832bd0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:25:21 -0600 To: Subject: GMO Fish Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 521 >From http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-02-09.html. A new way for things to go wrong with GMO's. Mike Miller ONE GENETICALLY MODIFIED FISH = NO FISH WEST LAFAYETTE, Indiana, December 2, 1999 (ENS) - A single genetically modified fish could wipe out local populations of the original species if released into the wild, biologists warn in the December 4 issue of "New Scientist." Other organisms could face the same risk from transgenic relatives. William Muir and Richard Howard of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, made the discovery while modeling ecological risks associated with genetically modified organisms (GMOs). They have dubbed their idea the "Trojan gene" hypothesis. "This resembles the Trojan horse," says Muir. "It gets into the population looking like something good and it ends up destroying the population." The researchers studied fish carrying the human growth hormone gene hGH, which increases growth rate and final size. Biologists in the US and Britain are experimenting with salmon engineered in a similar way. Muir and Howard included hGH in embryos of a fish called the Japanese medaka, a common aquarium fish. They found that modified individuals matured faster than normal fish and produced more eggs, rapidly spreading the new gene throughout the population. But only two thirds of modified medaka survived to reproductive age, which led the population to dwindle. The researchers plugged their results into a computer model to find out what would happen if 60 transgenic individuals joined a wild population of 60,000 fish. The population became extinct within just 40 generations. Even a single transgenic animal could have the same effect, they found, although extinction would take longer. "You have the very strange situation where the least fit individual in the population is getting all the matings - this is the reverse of Darwin's model," says Muir. "The sexual selection drives the gene into the population and the reduced viability drives the population to extinction." The researchers say their results are the first evidence that GMOs could have catastrophic consequences on their own species. Three Stikes and They're Out. Support Law and Order for all Legal "Persons". To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Dec 3 18:29:55 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17381 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29495 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:10:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29480 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA16692; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:01:06 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id HAA09311; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:35:39 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912032335.HAA09311@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 04 Dec 99 06:37:12 Subject: RE: do-it-yourself breeding To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 522 >Roberto seemed to think that we simply take existing varieties from the >public domain and patent them. My point was that what is being patented or I didn't think that at all. I know you do breeding. >My point was that privatization of cultivar development is ethical, as >ethical as, say, manufacturing refrigerators, or farming your own land. Dog breeders all do breeding, but the results go back to the public pool and they don't claim monopoly rights over a breed. THAT is ethical. Ordinary farmers do plant breeding too. And the results also go back to the public pool. THAT is ethical. >Sure, go ahead. You have complete freedom to do that, and it is in no way >impeded by private plant breeding. In the Philippines, seed companies and the government collude to impose hybrid seeds on farmers. Farmers can't get government loans and other support if they don't use seeds "certified" by the government. And guess whose seeds are certified? Pioneer's, Cargill's etc. THAT is unethical. In the U.S., the government does a lot of research using public funds. So do universities. The results should go back to the public pool. But guess who gets the results? (Example: the terminator technology). Private companies, who simply buy the patents. THAT is unethical. There should be limits to privatization, which is basically corporate ownership of public goods. Like the WTO (remember Seattle?), we should draw a line somewhere, beyond which it can't be allowed. I suggest two areas where the line against privatization should be drawn: 1) knowledge, and 2) life. In the Biblical sermon on the mount, Jesus started with a few loaves of bread and pieces of fish and fed five thousand families, ending up with more than he started with. That miracle continues, everytime knowledge is shared or a seed grows and bears fruit. Knowledge and seeds are meant to be shared. Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 21:01:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19725 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA28642 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:38:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28600 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991204013526.CVJW11592.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:35:26 -0800 Message-ID: <38487127.9DECD1A9@home.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:40:55 -0800 From: William Evans Reply-To: williamevans@home.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Impact of soil biology on nutritional quality References: <199912032310.SAA29494@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 523 > She is interested in investigating crop nutritional > quality as a function of a crops genetic potential for > nutritional quality and interactions with species such as rhizosphere > colonists, Very good area of study, possibly she could consider open pollinated crops in comparison to their hybrid cousins...looking at mineral content, vitamins, etc. I believe OP usually willl uptake a more varied nutrient mix, tho sometimes fail on depleted soils where hybrids willget by. Im still a firm believer that the real limiting factor in uptake of nutrient by any particular crop is the soil the crop is grown in....Study of nutrient uptake for the improvement of the "genome" is certainly warranted, but is still a bandaid , I believe ,in comparison to studying methods/theories on soil balancing... which is truly a multi-lifetime endeavor. bill evans To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 22:54:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21248 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA10320 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:31:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10302 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-9-28.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.124]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA21331 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:30:13 -0500 Message-ID: <002301bf3e0a$6b075160$7c5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: Subject: Re: wheat variety/strain Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:48:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 524 While wheat is being discussed, are there any good varieties of wheat that can be grown in the midwest to make a nice all purpose flower that doesn't need huge amounts of gluten added? Thanks in advance, Greg Gunthorp Free range pig, chicken, and rabbit farmer To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 3 23:27:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21676 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23143 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:53:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23103 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-67.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.67]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:50:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:48:14 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8908.991203@acnet.net> To: Roberto Verzola CC: WILSONDO@phibred.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: do-it-yourself breeding In-reply-To: <199912032335.HAA09311@phil.gn.apc.org> References: <199912032335.HAA09311@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 525 (Waxing poetic) Hi Roberto, Saturday, December 04, 1999, 12:37:12 AM, you wrote: RV> That miracle continues, everytimeknowledge is shared or a seed RV> grows and bears fruit. RV> Knowledge and seeds are meant to be shared. This time Roberto and I agree. And what he just said touches on a *very* interesting concept. Roberto mentions two things whose right use he claims (and I agree) properly and inherently involves sharing. The suggestion is that the miracle he referred to *does* have something to do with the act of sharing itself, at bottom. This in turn suggests that there are things that are little good at all *unless* they are shared, things that are *inherently* good *only when* they're shared. And then we have people who *can't* share, who are in fact *afraid* to share, who curiously feel more comfortable dealing with corporations rather than people, as if they were more trustworthy. (thought you'd like that RV) What makes that happen. Isn't there something lacking here? Aren't we talking about a lack of maturity, a fatal character flaw, an inability to perceive, enjoy and (yes) share something that's inherently good when shared, and inherently *bad* when efforts are made to circumvent that, to prevent that from happening. People who can only abstract things, and do that only for one reason - to detach themselves from life itself, under a boatload of pretexts that include transforming these good things into something a little better adapted to being converted into (you guessed it) the root of all evil, $$$. And it's all done so damn *reasonably*, the reasons for the GMO's, for making a little money (what's so wrong with that? - nothing, of course). But underlying it all, there's that defect - that glaring and sinister dark vacuum - that absence of humanity, and the inability to share and perceive pleasure sharing. The worst part of it is that there seem to be more of these bugs on the list than there used to be. The best part of it that more and mote people seem to be piercing the smoke screen and taking a stand *opposed* to exploitation, to downgrading the quality of life, to needlessly contaminating the biosphere and running needless risks to put the lives of all at peril, just to make a little money (what's so wrong with that)? There's no ethical issue here, and no need to abstract anything or make it academic. Just a gut issue. Nobody's impressing anybody. But who's got his or her heart in the right place? Fewer people are sitting back and swallowing all the lies about how it's all for our own good, and of course so damn reasonable. DH To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 4 09:06:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25417 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19565 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:42:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from olsmail1.att.net.hk (olsmail1.att.net.hk [202.77.253.46]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19475 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [202.77.163.143] (ppp6-143.att.net.hk [202.77.163.143]) by olsmail1.att.net.hk (8.8.8/AT&T-EasyLink-AP) with ESMTP id VAA29151 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:39:29 +0800 (HKT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: gruno@mail.att.net.hk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38487127.9DECD1A9@home.com> References: <199912032310.SAA29494@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> <38487127.9DECD1A9@home.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:40:48 +0800 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: Impact of soil biology on nutritional quality Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 > > She is interested in investigating crop nutritional > > quality as a function of a crops genetic potential for > > nutritional quality and interactions with species such as rhizosphere > > colonists, > > Very good area of study, possibly she could consider open pollinated >crops in comparison to their hybrid cousins...looking at mineral >content, vitamins, etc. I believe OP usually willl uptake a more varied >nutrient mix, tho sometimes fail on depleted soils where hybrids >willget by. > Im still a firm believer that the real limiting factor in uptake of >nutrient by any particular crop is the soil the crop is grown >in....Study of nutrient uptake for the improvement of the "genome" is >certainly warranted, but is still a bandaid , I believe ,in comparison >to studying methods/theories on soil balancing... >which is truly a multi-lifetime endeavor. >bill evans From memory, in the mid-80s Britain's Soil Association published figures from the US showing a protein decline in wheat from 15% to 8% (?) in the previous few decades. The SA would have seen that as a matter of farming methods and soil practices as well as crop variety changes. I'm sorry, these references are in my library, but half my library is 5,000 miles south of here! (where it's in good use at least). Sir Albert Howard's work might also be of interest. He's mostly known as the man who developed Indore composting and founded the organics movement, but most of his work in India was on improving varieties, mainly of wheat. He and his wife formed a brilliant scientific team during a long career in India. They achieved good results with the wheat, but this was as a part of an overall strategy that also included Indore composting and early work with mycorrhiza, and had a strong focus on soil management, as well as on the real requirements of Indian cultivators. A good reference is "Sir Albert Howard in India", by L.E. Howard, Faber, London, 1953. It's more about his work than a biography. It's online at Steve Solomon's Soil & Health Library: http://www.soilandhealth.org/index.html In these three cases it might be possible to determine the influence of crop variety: On Oct 6 Steve Driver wrote (SANET): >"The Healing Power of Minerals, Special Nutrients and Trace >Elements" by Paul Bergner (1997, Prima Publishing, Rocklin, CA) >includes USDA figures that show a decline in mineral and vitamin >content of several fruits and vegetables between 1914, 1963, and >1992. Table 1 is a summary of mineral decreases in fruits and >vegetables over a 30-year period, adapted from Bergner's book. On 16 Nov 1999 Chris Alenson posted a message "Food nutrition and soil regeneration" (SANET) listing changes in nutritional content with improved soil management in Australia. Rodale's current "Letter to the USDA" campaign focuses on studies of government reports in the US and UK which revealed significant declines in mineral and vitamin content in a variety of raw fruits and vegetables in recent decades. http://www.organicgardening.com/articles/article2.html I hope this helps. Keith To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 4 11:57:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26815 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07930 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:38:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07867 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (18.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.48]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24330; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:37:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912041637.KAA24330@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: Cc: "sanet" Subject: RE: Bt exudates in soil Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:40:56 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 527 Your recent post on Bt was informative and balanced. My question, not being a scientist, is this: I am under the impression that Bt is a very specific pathogen. That is, the particular Bt being used by farmers and gardeners is specific to certain damaging insects and is not the least toxic to non-target species (setting aside the debate over monarch catapillars - which is way far from proven fact). So, what danger does a "build up" of Bt toxins in the soil have to do with non targeted species? Personally, I think you also stated the real long term problem - resistance. That is a question that is not a matter of if, but when. Mind you I am not being critical, only inquisitive for my own education. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 4 14:21:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28107 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03792 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:55:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03788 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22667 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-145-129.stk.jps.net [216.224.145.129]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA22877 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:52:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38497202.C8BE3356@jps.net> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:56:52 -0800 From: Eric Gibson Reply-To: egibson@jps.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: The New Farmers' Market Logo Contest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 528 ____________________New World Publishing _____________________ Eric Gibson • 11543 Quartz Dr. #1, Auburn, CA 95602 (530) 823-3886 • (810) 279-1959 (fax) • egibson@jps.net • www.jps.net/grower The New Farmers’ Market Logo Contest New World Publishing today announced “The New Farmers’ Market Logo Contest” in which farmers’ market managers are invited to submit market logos for inclusion in the upcoming “New Farmers’ Market” book. According to the book’s author Eric Gibson, “There is no better way to illustrate the beauty and diversity of the markets than with their own logos. Each booth and each market is unique, and their artwork is a reflection of this.” Market managers may send their logos to New World Publishing, 11543 Quartz Dr. #1, Auburn, CA 95602. Deadline for sending logos is Jan. 15th. Each entrant will receive a 10-percent discount and free shipping offer, and the three grand prize winners will receive a free book. “Everyone wins at farmers’ markets,” Gibson said “—farmers, consumers and townspeople alike, so the logo contest, too, has nothing but winners!” In yet another development, New World Publishing announced that, unlike the announcement postcards in which the “Farmers” in “New Farmers’ Market” carried no apostrophe, the apostrophe will be back in the upcoming book. “The voice of the farmers has been heard,” Gibson said. “Farmers want to make it clear that with farmers’ markets, the farmers are in control of marketing!” (Market managers: if you would like to receive a packet of announcement postcards to give to the growers in your market, please write to the above address or call Eric at 530-823-3886.) So what’s “new” in something so ancient as farmers’ markets? “Well, for starters, they’re Y2K compliant,” Gibson said. “Computers may shut down, but farmers’ markets will go on forever.” More information about “The New Farmers’ Market” can be found on the web site at http://www.jps.net/grower. -- Eric Gibson New World Publishing egibson@jps.net Author: Sell What You Sow, The New Farmers Market http://www.jps.net/grower To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 4 14:59:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28444 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02593 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:41:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02481 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23212 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA02432; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm9-39.nidlink.com [216.18.141.94]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA05158; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:38:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912041938.LAA05158@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:41:58 -0800 To: "mikerichardson" From: Charles Benbrook Subject: More on Bt-Transgenics and Soil Cc: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, , , DND307@aol.com In-Reply-To: <199912041637.KAA24330@mail.multipro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 529 Mike -- In response to your question -- Yes, different Bt crystals target different insects. They also no doubt will behave differently in the soil. I doubt anyone outside the companies working on the technology has much of an idea what the consequences will be for soil microbial communities of the new corn hybrids with Bt expressed through roots at high levels. How could they? There is little or no information in the public arena re the engineered Bt toxin that will be in the new hybrids, its exact form, and levels of expression over time. I also expect that the manufacturers will, and indeed may have already submitted thousands of pages of data/studies that they feel show there will be "no problems." Because EPA rules prohibit the agency from publicly disclosing this and other data until after a decision has been reached, there could be essentially no time between government review/approval and widespread marketing. I am sure the grower, land grant and NGO communities will press Dow and Pioneer to be much more forthcoming with data than they have to be under EPA regulations. Since both companies are trying to not follow in Monsanto's footsteps, maybe they will open up the process. If they do not, they will be asking for trouble. My gut feeling is that the scope/degree of change in the soil profile from the new corns could be very different from the experimental conditions in which past work was carried out. I think many soil ecologists and students of soil health feel the same way. Extrapolating safety from past work that involved low levels of foliar Bts mixed in soil, to the much higher levels of probably partially truncated-activated Bts exuded through roots for continuous, extended periods is a huge leap. Stotsky's new work adds a new reason to "look before thousands of corn farmers leap,'' as it were. What might it take for the U.S. EPA to review and act upon this critical new GMO technology "correctly" from the perspective of those advocating adherence to the precautionary principle? As part of my work with the Science and Environmental Network (SEHN) and IATP, I am among a group of people working toward at least a preliminary answer to this question. Some early thinking follows; we welcome people's reactions and further suggestions and dialogue. The first key goal would be to characterize potential risks (both in the soil system and animal/human health, of course) and to establish baselines from which potential risk/adverse consequences can be objectively monitored. This step entails both the qualitative description of potential adverse risk outcomes, and the identification of what amounts to mechanisms of action through which bad outcomes might arise, including identification of "worst case" combinations of factors that would seemingly increase the odds of problems occurring. This later step is key in targeting monitoring efforts and to rapidly build confidence that the review/approval did cover all the bases. Next, science/data submitted that supports a prediction that possible risks will not amount to much must be critically evaluated. EPA's approval will depend largely on whether the agency, and scientists asked to review the decision and underlying data, conclude that a persuasive and solid case has, in fact, been made. Last, the agency must insist on there being a credible monitoring system and an incremental series of field research activities. It is not realistic to expect science to completely foresee the impacts of such a technology given the lack of knowledge of what really goes on in soil. Accordingly, much greater weight must be assigned to actual infield monitoring in the first few years of approval, to make sure the initial risk assessment did not completely miss some complex multi-tiered effect. The approval also needs to have appropriate "easy out" clauses (i.e. conditions) -- if x, y, or z is found in early field research (or other required monitoring), the approval is rescinded, period, without EPA having to go through a 7 year, multi-million debate with the registrant, as often the case with federal pesticide law (under which biotech approvals are made). When the registrant/developer has new data showing the problem has been fixed, they can always resubmit the technology for a new review. Both a resistance management and non-target impacts monitoring program should be developed and in place, with appropriate safeguards, BEFORE wide scale planting. The conditional approval of the new varieties should depend upon annual field research/monitoring confirming the projected performance of the resistance management plan and lack of "meaningful" impacts on non-targets. Increased plantings should lag by a year or two the confidence scientists have in the data/knowledge supporting the "no big impacts" conclusion. The EPA's Scientific Advisory panel meets 12/8 to discuss the type of research and data needed to project the ecological impacts of Bt-transgenic crops on non-target Lepidopterans, soil microbial communities, and other non-targets. I hope they spend at least some time considering below the ground impacts, and am sure they will given the timely release of the new work by Stotsky and colleagues. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 03:26:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA04796 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 03:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA17929 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 03:08:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17920 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 03:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-162.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.162]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:04:22 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:01:58 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <184.991205@acnet.net> To: Joel Brooks Gruver CC: sanet , jcoate01@emerald.tufts.edu Subject: Re: impact of soil biology on crop nutritional quality In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 Hi Joel, Friday, December 03, 1999, 3:26:28 PM, you wrote: JBG> Hello to all, JBG> ... one of my students mentioned that she was intrigued by the JBG> potential for using genetic engineering to increase the JBG> nutritional quality of staple crops. ... JBG> She is interested in investigating crop nutritional quality as a JBG> function of a crops genetic potential ... and interactions with JBG> species such as rhizosphere colonists, soil fauna, above ground JBG> or below ground herbivory, pathogens ...etc... How about a "crops genetic potential" in terms of "crop nutritional quality", as function of an evolutionary (biological) vs. manipulated genetic construction. JBG> I think that these types of relationships are really much more JBG> important than generalized contrasts of production systems such JBG> as conventional vs. organic. To have any meaning, a "generalized contrast of production systems such as conventional vs. organic" must necessarily be founded on data relating to "these [and other relevant] types of relationships". (Other relevant relationships include organism level - rather than biosphere level interactions and efficiencies, given that a higher level organism itself constitutes an environment integrating distinct processes which some believe have evolved from discrete origins). JBG> We would appreciate any insights on the impact of multi-species JBG> interactions on crop content of nutritional components such as JBG> calories, protein, lipids, vitamins, phytochemicals or minerals. JBG> Joel Gruver JBG> Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment JBG> Tufts University I would add that in addition to any "insights on the impact of multi-species interactions", I have placed a standing call for data relating to "crop content of nutritional components such as calories, protein, lipids, vitamins, phytochemicals or minerals", and/or physiological differences in "Seedling Fruit Trees vs. Fruit Trees Not On Their Own Roots, and/or the performance of organisms feed one or the other as a staple diet. This post is also meant to serve as a reminder that these studies have yet to be carried out, in spite of the ubiquitous presence of the latter in industrialized present day agriculture. (Why not do it now at Tufts)? Douglas Hinds, CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural (Center for Rural and Community Development) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Dec 5 10:04:13 1999 -0500 Received: from net.bio.net (net.bio.net [198.94.52.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06600 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA22902 for symbios-list; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 07:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by net.bio.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA22898; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 07:07:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912051507.HAA22898@net.bio.net> To: nobody@net.bio.net X-Really-To: symbios@net.bio.net Newsgroups: bionet.biology.symbiosis From: daemonbass@aol.com (Daemonbass) Subject: Help: Parasitic, Symbiotic, Amensalitic, BLANK Date: Sat, Dec 4, 1999, 3:15 PM Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 531 I really need to find a word. Parasitic = a relationship between two different organisms in which one benefits and the other is affected adversely. Ex: a blood sucking leech. Symbiotic = a relationship between two different organisms in which both species benefit. Ex: the bacteria in the intestines of termite. The bacteria feeds on the wood, and this helps the termite digest it. Amensalism = a relationship in which one is unaffected, but the other is affected adversely. What I need to know is: the type of relationship in which one is unaffected, but the other benefits. Ex: Spanish Moss. It feeds on the air, and it doesn't hurt the oak tree. The Oak gets absolutely no benefit, but the moss has a place to hang... WHAT IS THE WORD??? Thanks!!!!!!!!!! From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 15:19:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09019 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20561 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:52:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20556 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:52:51 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.170]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:50:22 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991205135059.007cda20@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:50:59 -0600 To: Subject: Reading on a Snowy Day Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 532 Since Mother Nature has enforced a break in work, I was reading an old book from the local library that was gifted to them from the John Morrell Company Library. It is a book by Louis Bromfield called Pleasant Valley describing in its' early chapters the events leading up to his leaving France and returning to the USA as war clouds loomed over Europe before the Big One. I was most struck by the connectedness people felt toward the land and history that we don't really have in a country like the US which has such a relatively short history. This is illustrated nicely by the passage: "I was aware too, quite suddenly, of what it was that attracted me to Europe and most of all to France; it was the sense of continuity and the permanence of small but eternal things, ... The permanence, the continuity of France was not born of weariness and economic defeat, but was a living thing, anchored to the soil, to the very earth itself. Any French peasant, any French workingman with his little plot of ground and his modest home and wages, which by American standards were small, had more permanence, more solidity, more security, than the American workingman or white-collar worker who received, according to French standards, fabulous wages, who rented the home he lived in and was perpetually in debt for his car, his radio, his washing machine. Sitting there it occurred to me that the high standard of living in America was an illusion, based upon credit and the installment plan, which threw a man and his family into the street and on public relief the monent his factory closed and he lost his job. ..." The last paragraph above, which had originally been underlined by some previous reader or probably the original owner who had gifted his book to the Morrell Library in 1952, was carefully returned to the non-underlined state. I mused that the erasure was most likely done by the librarian who stamped EXAMINED AND KEPT above the original gifter's name which was written with a fountain-type pen on the inside of the front cover. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. I guess here in America, in our own way, we have continuity with the past too. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 15:57:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09213 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18063 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:37:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18054 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11231 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11uiMu-0005Dx-00; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:34:52 +0100 Message-ID: <384AD194.E534230A@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:56:53 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Benbrook CC: mikerichardson , sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, PatrickMadden@compuserve.com, biotech_activists@iatp.org, DND307@aol.com, GMO-L@cornell.edu Subject: Re: More on Bt-Transgenics and Soil References: <199912041938.LAA05158@enaila.nidlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 533 Charles, I have a gew remarks on your posting. Since four years I send in questions and objections to applications for gmo-field trials here in the Netherlands. One standard objection is that in the applications no research into the effects on soillife of the gmo-decading plants is mentioned. Since the approval process here is not much different from other countries, I do not expect the situation to be much better elsewhere. Therefore I do not think that not only outside but also within the companies that do trials there is much knowledge about this issue. (I have seen only from Monsanto some material). Also because, as you say, there is in general still a lot to be learned about soillife; from what I understood 95% of micro-organisms in soil are still unknown and their function not understood. Though it is true that unexpected, adverse effects to soillife may happen through other ways than GE also, there is good reason to think that the risk for this to occur are higher and will be harder to combat in GE. Therefore it would be much better in my opinion to not approve any GE-crop before thorough studies have been performed (preferably during glasshouse trials), the nature of these studies would, in my opinion, have to be determined in an open debate with all stakeholders involved. Wytze de Lange Biofood Consultancy Charles Benbrook wrote: > Mike -- In response to your question -- Yes, different Bt crystals target > different insects. They also no doubt will behave differently in the soil. > I doubt anyone outside the companies working on the technology has much of > an idea what the consequences will be for soil microbial communities of the > new corn hybrids with Bt expressed through roots at high levels. How could > they? There is little or no information in the public arena re the > engineered Bt toxin that will be in the new hybrids, its exact form, and > levels of expression over time. > > I also expect that the manufacturers will, and indeed may have already > submitted thousands of pages of data/studies that they feel show there will > be "no problems." Because EPA rules prohibit the agency from publicly > disclosing this and other data until after a decision has been reached, > there could be essentially no time between government review/approval and > widespread marketing. I am sure the grower, land grant and NGO communities > will press Dow and Pioneer to be much more forthcoming with data than they > have to be under EPA regulations. Since both companies are trying to not > follow in Monsanto's footsteps, maybe they will open up the process. If > they do not, they will be asking for trouble. > > My gut feeling is that the scope/degree of change in the soil profile from > the new corns could be very different from the experimental conditions in > which past work was carried out. I think many soil ecologists and students > of soil health feel the same way. Extrapolating safety from past work that > involved low levels of foliar Bts mixed in soil, to the much higher levels > of probably partially truncated-activated Bts exuded through roots for > continuous, extended periods is a huge leap. Stotsky's new work adds a new > reason to "look before thousands of corn farmers leap,'' as it were. > > What might it take for the U.S. EPA to review and act upon this critical > new GMO technology "correctly" from the perspective of those advocating > adherence to the precautionary principle? As part of my work with the > Science and Environmental Network (SEHN) and IATP, I am among a group of > people working toward at least a preliminary answer to this question. > Some early thinking follows; we welcome people's reactions and further > suggestions and dialogue. > > The first key goal would be to characterize potential risks (both in the > soil system and animal/human health, of course) and to establish baselines > from which potential risk/adverse consequences can be objectively > monitored. This step entails both the qualitative description of potential > adverse risk outcomes, and the identification of what amounts to > mechanisms of action through which bad outcomes might arise, including > identification of "worst case" combinations of factors that would seemingly > increase the odds of problems occurring. This later step is key in > targeting monitoring efforts and to rapidly build confidence that the > review/approval did cover all the bases. > > Next, science/data submitted that supports a prediction that possible > risks will not amount to much must be critically evaluated. EPA's approval > will depend largely on whether the agency, and scientists asked to review > the decision and underlying data, conclude that a persuasive and solid case > has, in fact, been made. > > Last, the agency must insist on there being a credible monitoring system > and an incremental series of field research activities. It is not > realistic to expect science to completely foresee the impacts of such a > technology given the lack of knowledge of what really goes on in soil. > Accordingly, much greater weight must be assigned to actual infield > monitoring in the first few years of approval, to make sure the initial > risk assessment did not completely miss some complex multi-tiered effect. > The approval also needs to have appropriate "easy out" clauses (i.e. > conditions) -- if x, y, or z is found in early field research (or other > required monitoring), the approval is rescinded, period, without EPA having > to go through a 7 year, multi-million debate with the registrant, as often > the case with federal pesticide law (under which biotech approvals are > made). When the registrant/developer has new data showing the problem has > been fixed, they can always resubmit the technology for a new review. > > Both a resistance management and non-target impacts monitoring program > should be developed and in place, with appropriate safeguards, BEFORE wide > scale planting. The conditional approval of the new varieties should > depend upon annual field research/monitoring confirming the projected > performance of the resistance management plan and lack of "meaningful" > impacts on non-targets. Increased plantings should lag by a year or two > the confidence scientists have in the data/knowledge supporting the "no big > impacts" conclusion. > > The EPA's Scientific Advisory panel meets 12/8 to discuss the type of > research and data needed to project the ecological impacts of Bt-transgenic > crops on non-target Lepidopterans, soil microbial communities, and other > non-targets. I hope they spend at least some time considering below the > ground impacts, and am sure they will given the timely release of the new > work by Stotsky and colleagues. > > chuck > > > > Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com > Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net > 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 17:00:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09744 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27494 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:41:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27457 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11ujMy-0000ay-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:39:00 +0100 Message-ID: <384AE0C8.8AA32E4C@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:01:44 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: WTO ON HIGH MEDIA GROUND - Norman SDolomon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 534 MichaelP wrote: > Vol. 5, No. 1216W - The American Reporter - December 5, 1999 > > The Crisis of Globalism > COMMENTARY: NEARING GLOBAL SUMMIT, WTO ON HIGH MEDIA GROUND > by Norman Solomon American Reporter Correspondent Washington, D.C. > > WASHINGTON -- When thousands of protesters converge on Seattle at the end > of this month to challenge the global summit of the World Trade > Organization (WTO), they're unlikely to get a fair hearing from America's > mass media. > > Consider how one of the nation's most influential newspapers framed the > upcoming confrontation as November began. The Washington Post reported on > its front page that the WTO has faced "virulent opposition" -- an > assessment not quoted or attributed to anyone -- presumably just a matter > of fact. > > Virulent? According to my dictionary, the mildest definition of the word is > "intensely irritating, obnoxious or harsh." The other definitions: > "extremely poisonous or pathogenic; bitterly hostile or antagonistic; > hateful." > > Don't you just love objective reporting? > > Headlined above the fold on page one of the Post, the Nov. 2 article went > on to quote four pro-WTO sources: the organization's president, a top > executive at the Goldman, Sachs investment firm, the U.S. trade > representative and a member of the British House of Commons. In contrast, > quotations from foes of the WTO were scarce and fleeting. > > Such coverage of trade issues is significant because it's routine. For much > of the U.S. news media, the virtues of economic globalization are > self-evident, like motherhood and apple pie. > > Overall, in recent years, journalists depicted the NAFTA and GATT trade > pacts as steps toward rationality and global progress. Opponents have been > frequently discussed -- but not often heard. The media "debate" over > globalization has resembled the sound of one side clapping. > > Many of the anti-WTO activists heading to Seattle have gained in-depth > knowledge about key aspects of trade and the global economy. They will > share a great deal of information and deep concern about the environment, > labor, human rights and economic justice. > > Meanwhile, in the halls of corporate power, strategists are worried. > > The Nov. 8 issue of Business Week features a downbeat piece by Jeffrey > Garten, a former undersecretary of commerce in the Clinton administration, > who declares: "In late November, Seattle is likely to be the scene of a big > test for global capitalism. That's when more than 1,000 nongovernmental > organizations (NGOs) are planning to disrupt the kickoff of a new round of > global trade negotiations." > > Similar concerns are being voiced by many other media commentators. What > are they afraid of? Undue democratic participation in decision-making. NGOs > "have skillfully exploited the void between shrinking governments unable to > cushion the impact of change on ordinary citizens and multinational > companies that are the agents of that change," Garten writes. > > Translation: Huge firms have been able to bend and shape government > policies, while "ordinary citizens" have suffered dire consequences. Rather > than passively accept the results, activist groups are resisting -- and > what's worse, they're getting somewhere. > > "While governments and chief executives bore the public and the media with > sterile abstractions about free markets," Garten adds, "NGOs are sending > more nuanced messages sensitive to the anxieties of local communities > around the world. At the same time, they are preparing sophisticated > strategies to influence television networks, newspapers and magazines." > > Translation: Activists are threatening to usurp the prerogatives of big > money to determine the main media messages. > > "If Washington and Corporate America don't move decisively," Garten warns, > "NGOs could dominate public opinion on global trade and finance." > > Translation: Washington and Corporate America must make sure that they > continue to dominate public opinion. > > But the fears of some are the hopes of others: During the week after > Thanksgiving, events in Seattle could signify a breakthrough for advocates > of democratic processes. The surfacing activism could create a new dynamic > powerful enough to shift the terms of public discourse. > > Throughout this decade, as government leaders and corporate execs have > marched to the beat of multinational drums, grassroots oppositional > movements have taken root and flowered in many communities. Gradually, > since the founding of the World Trade Organization five years ago, they > have developed ways to monitor the secretive WTO's activities and to work > together -- across boundaries of race, class, language, culture and > nationality. > > Truly democratic procedures -- not unelected WTO officials -- should > determine the rules of the global economy. The implications are profound: > for human rights, workers, public health and the environment. With a > worldwide movement emerging to challenge the corporate globalizers, we'll > see how much of its message can get through the media filters during the > historic Seattle summit. > > Norman Solomon's latest book is "The Habits of Highly Deceptive Media." > > Copyright 1999 Joe Shea The American Reporter. All Rights Reserved. > > ---- > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list, send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line. > ---- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 18:12:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10513 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA08253 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:54:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08243 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:58:43 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.135] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id ACEE861A0380; Sun, 05 Dec 1999 16:53:34 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 22:51:08 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: WTO Opposition Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 535 I suspect that when history is written looking back from 50 years hence, the WTO disruptions of the past week will be seen as the first of the 'Deflation Riots.' At the core of it, WTO opponents are responding to *symptoms* of the same powerful deflationary forces already affecting agriculture. Workers in other industries are seeing only the leading edges of "global competitiveness," but not recognising the fierce competition for markets as another form of goods chasing money. Environmentalists are not yet recognising the liquidation of natural capital as a desperate struggle to generate cash. Simply put, inflation (which we've had for the last 3-4 generations) is money chasing goods. *Deflation* (which we will probably have for the *next* 3-4 generation if the last 1100 years of history are any guide) is goods chasing money. Most people on this list (and every reporter out there) are missing the key point because they are a) looking at the wrong time scale and b) incorrectly assuming the future to be a linear estension of the past What farmers have experienced the last few years, I predict most other industries will know before most of us are a whole lot greyer than we are today. 2009 will be radically different than 1999. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 5 18:55:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10867 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08048 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:41:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08036 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-84.s84.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.84] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11ulEr-0003O1-00; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:38:45 -0500 Message-ID: <384AF7D0.20C00C5@erols.com> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:40:00 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: WTO Opposition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 536 Bart: A very wise reply. I never considered it that way before - that's why environmental degradation has accelerated so; it's those in control trying to generate the money they need to *stay* in control - they simply have no other plan. R. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 13:29:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00851 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05906 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:55:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub1.lvs.dupont.com (mhub1.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05877 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub1.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:51:29 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:11:32 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:11:31 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0068@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'mmiller@pcsia.com'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Agricultural phase of human evolution (was: Reading on a Snowy Day) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:11:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 537 Mike, > I was most struck by the connectedness people felt toward the land > and history that we don't really have in a country like the US > which has such a relatively short history. This is illustrated > nicely by the passage: > "I was aware too, quite suddenly, of what it was that attracted me > to Europe and most of all to France; it was the sense of continuity > and the permanence of small but eternal things, ... > > The permanence, the continuity of France was not born of weariness > and economic defeat, but was a living thing, anchored to the soil, > to the very earth itself..." I was struck by this too. It got me thinking about the long-term history of humans, and how the current transitions might be characterized (not that I am necessarily endorsing the transitions). Agriculture is apparently a fairly recent invention. Over millions of years, hunter-gatherers were at the mercy of environmental whims. They roamed all over the world, colonizing it. Then, just 10,000 years ago, agriculture took root here and there, extended families further extended, and from all this grew the great civilizations. One of these was (is) Western European sedentary farming. This supported local kings and later popular governments. Back at the height of this age, almost everyone was tied to the land (they had no choice). Now, very few people are tied to the land. Global culture, communication and travel are rapidly emerging. People are subject to the whims of global culture (operating as it were, like acts of God). They roam, going where they can to get jobs and gather resources. Local bands such as corporations and denominations provide ad-hoc community. This is becoming virtualized and delocalized. In effect, community is no longer tied to the land either. Are you sure that European-style sedentary agriculture is more desirable or more natural than hunting and roaming in the global environment? What next? Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 13:29:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00890 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25155 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:29:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from trolley.tesco.net (trolly.tesco.net [194.73.73.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25137 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [62.172.28.199] (helo=elaine) by trolley.tesco.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11v0yf-0003M3-00 for Sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:27:06 +0000 Message-ID: <001001bf4006$83317060$c71cac3e@elaine> From: "Paddy Doherty" To: "Sanet-mg-digest" Subject: Composting slurry Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:23:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 538 Dear Sanet users, I had the very good fortune to attend a "Manure Management Evening", in Newcastle Emlyn last Wednesday. Sponsored by the Cambrian Organic Group, it was one of a series of events designed to encourage organic farming in Wales. The program mimicked similar events in other venues all over the world. A representative of the Environmental Regulator spoke about legislation, mostly, and a person from a research station and another from an advisory service spoke briefly about nitrate cycling and manure handling, respectively. All three suggested the question period would provide more information than their talks. In the question period the issue of liquid manure slurries and what is the best method of dealing with them, kept coming up. I was surprised to see how closely this problem parallels what we have been trying to deal with in British Columbia now that organic milk production is finally coming on stream. In B.C. there are Certification Committees which are right now trying to make recommendations to dairy farmers about what is actually "organic practice" and what is practicable and how to reconcile the two. The upshot of the question period was an absence of information on this subject. It was generally agreed that a straw-based bedding system was preferred; but this provides little help for farmers in conversion (or interested in conversion) who have slurry systems already in place. Reference was made to Nic Lampkin's book, "Organic Farming", in which he details the benefits of slurry agitation and aeration. The talk around the room was that aerating your slurry would send far too much ammonia into the atmosphere, thereby losing nitrogen and polluting the air. I know when I turn my compost piles with my front-end-loader, there is lots of ammonia lost to the air. I just consider it part of the process. My questions to Sanet. Can a liquid manure slurry be made to compost? Can slurry be transformed into a stable (or more stable) product so that there is not the enormous ammonia escape associated with spreading it? What about injecting it? (I've heard anecdotal evidence that this is hard on soil fauna) I know there are organic dairy farms in the Midwestern States and Ontario and Quebec with much more experience dealing with this problem than we have had. What do you do? thanks, Paddy Doherty President, Certified Organic Associations of B.C. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 13:41:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01555 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02807 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:36:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02737 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:34:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "'dlewie@wcl.on.ca'" Subject: Re: ge/conventional corn prices Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:34:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 539 Forwarding..... Original message hit a snag with majordomo. Sender: Dave Lewington" Andy From: "Dave Lewington" To: "Roberto Verzola" , "Sanet" Subject: Re: ge/conventional corn prices Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:25:41 -0500 Pioneer corn in our growing area is $137/80k unit for a non-Bt variety,and $172/80k for a Bt variety. These prices are not for the same hybrid simply witht he Bt gene added though, so it might vary somewhat. The reason I know this is because we almost ACCIDENTALLY order a Bt variety without knowing it! Needless to say this was very annoying. We thought we'd try a few bags of a new variety that looked good in an advertisement, put in our tentative order, and then found out on the Pioneer website that this was a Bt variety. Now we have to cancel that variety. In our area Bt corn does not pay for the extra seed cost very often. If GMO produce is ever discounted, it will be a big money loser. It also does not reduce chemical use one iota, contrary to what the biotech boosters will say, because nobody sprays field corn for corn borer here. As far as selling price is concerned, I have not heard of any differences here *yet*, but there were some elevators that would not accept non-EU approved varieties this past fall. Dave P.S. - Has anyone on this list grown "Canamaize" corn? It is an open pollinated variety that will mature in very short season areas across the praries, and higher in protein than hybrid corn. -----Original Message----- From: Roberto Verzola To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 10:30 PM Subject: ge/conventional corn prices >I need the following info badly, and I hope some people on this list >can help. Even sample or indicative current prices or price ranges are >enough: > >- the buying price of Bt corn seed >- the buying price of typical conventional corn seed >- the selling price of Bt corn grain >- the selling price of conventional corn grain > >Retail/wholesale does not matter (as long as the prices are >comparable). > >Roberto Verzola > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 14:11:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08935 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13804 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:28:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13780 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP295.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.33]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04953 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384BFFE0.EEC3655@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 13:26:40 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Corn Info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 540 I have a couple of questions about corn that some of you may be able to help me with. We slowly expand our farm operation as we get our new projects worked into a smooth routine. My next project is corn. I've gathered and am rebuilding a corn sheller and cornmeal grinder this winter with the plan to grow our own corn for cornmeal and some OP corn for eating and selling (no super-sweet for me, thank you). My questions are, where can I find a discussion of things like potential protein levels for the varieties and which are best for meal. I've grown Golden Bantam for fresh and really liked the flavor- slightly sweet with a real strong corn taste- YUM! And I've read that some varieties have tight husks which resist corn earworms- anyplace where this is discussed. It seems that seed companies talk about everything but these aspects. Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 15:03:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11913 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10129 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:33:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from wist.ngdc.noaa.gov (wist.ngdc.noaa.gov [140.172.180.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10124 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:33:44 -0500 (EST) From: jdillon@ngdc.noaa.gov Received: (from jdillon@localhost) by wist.ngdc.noaa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17751; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:31:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:31:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199912061931.MAA17751@wist.ngdc.noaa.gov> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: GIS/EM4 Conference: Call for Papers Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 541 Call for Papers*- GIS/EM4 (Second Circular - Revised due date) 4th International Conference on Integrating Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and Environmental Modeling September 2-8, 2000: The Banff Centre for Conferences, Banff, Alberta, Canada Sponsors to-date: NSF, NCGIA, NASA, USFS, EPA, NOAA, USGS, USACE/DOD, NRCS WARNING: DO NOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO THIS MESSAGE. RESPOND ONLY TO http://www.colorado.edu/research/cires/banff OR gisem4@colorado.edu AS INSTRUCTED BELOW. *Abstracts are invited for book chapters, journal articles, tutorials or workshops, method/technique/ tool demonstrations, and electronic or static "poster" presentations contributing to the 4th International Conference on Integrating GIS and Environmental Modeling. The meeting will be held in dedicated, full service facilities at The Banff Centre for Conferences in Banff, Alberta, Canada, September 2-8, 2000. Self-explanatory abstracts in English should be 1-2 pages in length and must include title, author (s), institutional affiliation (s), explanation of completed work to be described, and 5-10 author-assigned key words. Clear relevance must be shown to predictive, numerical modeling approaches to environmental problem solving. A special conference theme will be human-environment interactions, and the role that GIS and modeling have in their improved understanding and prediction. The forum will retain its cross-disciplinary, pan-scientific, and problem solving emphases consistent with a concern for better integrated understanding of complex whole systems, their integrity and sustained functioning, and particularly (but not exclusively) their interactions with human activity. Spatial, statistical, temporal, and other methodological considerations are expected to be given balanced treatment with issues of science theory, new data sources and sensors, computing technologies, and application techniques. Abstracts should be submitted no later than 5:00 pm (Pacific Standard Time) on December 17, 1999 (extended from Nov. 19) via a web-active form available on the conference web page at http://www.colorado.edu/research/cires/banff/. This URL also contains other important information about contributions to the conference. Email correspondence may be addressed directly to the Conference Secretariat at GISEM4@colorado.edu. If you must submit an abstract by some means other than the web page and its web-active form, or if you have other urgent questions about the conference, please contact one of the following or send correspondence directly to: Conference Secretariat, GIS/EM4, Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES), CIRES Building 216, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309-0216 USA. Conference Director and Co-directors: Dr. Bradley Parks, Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES) Campus Box 216, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, 80309-0216. Email: bparks@colorado.edu, Tel: 303-497-6330, Fax: 303-497-6513. Mr. Michael Crane, US Geological Survey, EROS Data Center (EDC) 47914 252nd Street, Sioux Falls, SD 57198-0001 Email: mpcrane@usgs.gov, Tel: 605-594-6041, Fax: 605-594-6150. Dr. Keith Clarke, National Center for Geographic Information and Analysis (NCGIA) 3510 Phelps Hall, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060. Email: kclarke@geog.ucsb.edu, Tel: 805-893-7961, Fax: 805-893-3146. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 17:03:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15049 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08567 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:33:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08559 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09945 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ES7FH5SB; Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:30:01 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:59:45 -0700 Subject: Chickens & watermelon rines Message-ID: <19991206.141249.3446.1.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3,9,20-21 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 542 I am finishing off the least promising of last summer's watermelon crop and am delighted to find some still edible even if they aren't quite as tasty as the ones I ate in August and September. The chickens are equally delighted to eat whatever I don't. Meanwhile, a friend told me a story from his childhood: It seems that his father complained to the feed store because his hens weren't laying their usual quota. The feed store guy asked what else they were getting besides the feed he sold. When the father mentioned kitchen scraps including watermelon rines, the feed store guy immediately said watermelons make chickens quit laying. Do any of you know if there's any truth to this, or was the feed store guy just trying to get off the hook? Egg production from my 11 hens is down right now, but I blame the time of the year (i.e. decreasing daylight and cold weather) more than diet variation. Even if I thought it was diet, I'd be more inclined to blame the fact that this is a dry winter (blamed on la nina) with very little green forage available to the chickens. I've returned to last winter's strategy of gleaning from the food co-op's garbage and growing oat sprouts in the greenhouse just to give the chickens more fresh foods. They also have green tomatoes right now, some of which are ripening with flavor no better than you'd find in an ordinary grocery store. Any comments? Best regards, Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 19:21:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17280 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08679 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:04:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08593 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:04:41 -0500 (EST) From: CAVM@aol.com Received: from CAVM@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id 7.0.9bbc763e (4251) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:01:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.9bbc763e.257da85b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:01:31 EST Subject: Re: wet dairy manure To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 543 In a message dated 12/6/1999 5:48:47 PM Central Standard Time, owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu writes: > > My questions to Sanet. Can a liquid manure slurry be made to compost? > Can slurry be transformed into a stable (or more stable) product so > that there is not the enormous ammonia escape associated with > spreading it? What about injecting it? (I've heard anecdotal evidence > that this is hard on soil fauna) > Liquid manure can be handled in various ways. It can be injected into the soil or surface applied by spraying. It can have the solids separated out and the water portion used as above or recirculated through the barn as wash. Given the right circumstances it could be cleaned enough to make it potable, if you chose. The solid portion, after separation, can be composted, dried for bedding, or land applied as is. If we can help in your endeavors, please do not hesitate to call us. We have other thoughts on the uses of the wet manure including hydroponics and evaporation ponds of duckweed, for example. It can even be used to generate heat and energy. Regards, Cornelius A. Van Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc. CAVM@AOL.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Dec 6 15:44:38 1999 -0500 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13208 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11911; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11485 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:34:51 -0500 (EST) From: EWerb@aol.com Received: from EWerb@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id n.0.427878af (3702); Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:37:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.427878af.257d7876@aol.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:37:10 EST Subject: Genetically Engineered Agriculture: Truth and Consequences - talk in Ojai MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 56 To: undisclosed-recipients:; Reply-To: EWerb@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 544 ORGANIC FARMER TO SPEAK ON GENETIC ENGINEERING IN AGRICULTURE Steve Sprinkel, nationally known organic farmer, will speak on the topic Genetically Engineered Agriculture: Truth and Consequences, this Thursday, December 9, at 7:30 pm at Local Hero Bookstore, 254 E. Ojai Ave., Ojai, in the Arcade. Sprinkel has worked as an organic certifier in Iowa, Texas, and California; has grown organic row crops and tree crops in California and other states, and writes a column for the organic agriculture publication Acres USA. He currently resides in Ventura and farms in Ventura County. Sponsored by South Coast Permaculture Guild, and Campaign for Genetic Modified-Free Zones in Ventura County Admission is free. For more information, call 805/646-4212 or 652-1142. From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 19:52:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17694 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23031 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22988 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17427 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12780 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:30:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:30:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Genetically Engineered Agriculture: Truth and Consequences - talk in Ojai (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 545 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:37:10 EST From: EWerb@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: Genetically Engineered Agriculture: Truth and Consequences - talk in Ojai ORGANIC FARMER TO SPEAK ON GENETIC ENGINEERING IN AGRICULTURE Steve Sprinkel, nationally known organic farmer, will speak on the topic Genetically Engineered Agriculture: Truth and Consequences, this Thursday, December 9, at 7:30 pm at Local Hero Bookstore, 254 E. Ojai Ave., Ojai, in the Arcade. Sprinkel has worked as an organic certifier in Iowa, Texas, and California; has grown organic row crops and tree crops in California and other states, and writes a column for the organic agriculture publication Acres USA. He currently resides in Ventura and farms in Ventura County. Sponsored by South Coast Permaculture Guild, and Campaign for Genetic Modified-Free Zones in Ventura County Admission is free. For more information, call 805/646-4212 or 652-1142. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 20:58:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18780 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04773 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:43:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04725 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:42:55 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.137]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:40:23 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206194058.007dd7c0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:40:58 -0600 To: Subject: Agricultural phase of human evolution (was: Reading on a Snowy Day) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 546 > >Are you sure that European-style sedentary agriculture is more desirable or >more natural than hunting and roaming in the global environment? What next? Dale >From a human perspective, I would say, yes a settled agriculture is more desirable than a hunter/gather lifestyle for the following reasons: (I don't see that natural has much to do with it anymore.) 1. A hunter/gathers lifestyle is much more tenuous than a settled agricultural existence. History has shown you have a better chance of survival raising your own food then relying on hunting and gathering alone. This has really been brought home to me as I try and pop a bambi this hunting season in an area where the bambi population has been depleted by the blue tounge and/or a related disease. 2. If you own the land you work and that investment represents a significant fraction of your net worth (note you own the land not you're owned by the landlord) you have a stake in the long term productivity of that land because you expect a stream of benefits accruing to you - the owner. This same logic applies to small corporate farms as well as long as the net worth provision applies. The opposite is true of the hunter/gathering corporation which exhibits a Quarterly Report Bottom Line Mentality. This is not to say the hunter/gathers cannot shepherd their resources or that corporations cannot be responsible land owners with assets in many places on the globe. The difference is the hunter/gather who squanders his resources dies but managements are hired and fired on the basis of Quarterly Profits and Stock Prices not long term sustainability. 3. Social benefits accrue to society from a settled existence. Even relatively simple technologies would be hard or impossible to invent, if you are continually on the move and others would be down right impossible. Can you envision someone developing the equipment necessary to build a computer or GPS satellite if they moved every few days looking for food? 4. Finally on a more practical level given our current situation, the hunter gather lifestyle can support only a fraction of our current population. I had to laugh when I heard about the Anarchist group that came up to Seattle from Eugene, OR and started breaking windows at the Micky D's (their leader felt the world should return to a hunter/gather lifestyle). Right. Who chooses which 5 billion or more of the world's population gets to starve without any organized agriculture? Local bands such as corporations >and denominations provide ad-hoc community. This is becoming virtualized >and delocalized. In effect, community is no longer tied to the land either. I guess this is a matter of where and how you live. As for the notion of corporations providing ad-hoc community that would rival the community of a small farming town, I would like to quote part of a recent Dilbert comic strip. Boss " I can't send you to this class, Alice. We need you here. And after we use you up, we'll need you to be someplace else." With that kind of insight does anyone wonder why Dilbert is such an enormously popular cartoon strip for those of us who have worked for corporations up to and including corporate managers? Corporations providing a community that matches the community of a small farming town? I don't think so. To paraphrase a little midwestern ditty, Use 'em up, wear 'em out, throw them out. Corporations do that not real communities. You can have comradery with fellow workers, but don't ever fool yourself into thinking that the corporation won't dump you the minute you became a "burden" to the bottom line. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 21:02:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18846 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12435 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:54:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12431 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.145] (helo=[199.175.106.134]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 11v9nH-0003xo-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:52:03 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:55:55 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 547 Alex (and others) please lets do the corn discussion on the list because I ran into a lot of deadends last year. For sweet corn it's no problem. Here on the west coast there is West Coast Seeds in British Columbia and Territorial Seeds in Washington state (they were the same company at one time) with a good selection of OP sweet corn seed. That said finding a supply for grinding cornmeal is not as easy (is starch corn the correct term?). Seeds of Change had some but it was all acclimated to the long, hot summers of the US southwest, not the long, cool summers of the Pacific northwest and the Canadian westcoast. West Coast and Territorial are also not handling any GMO seed. To my knowledge eastern Canadian suppliers will not make that promise. Looking forward to hearing more about corn seed. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 21:02:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18850 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12381 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:54:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12377 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.145] (helo=[199.175.106.134]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 11v9n1-0003xo-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:51:47 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:55:39 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: hunting/gathering Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 548 Dale Wilson, May I correct a misapprehension you have about hunter/gathers, as academics have us call certain people. I enjoyed ten years of "subsistence" living, eight on the coast and two in the interior of British Columbia, Canada. I know there are major differences from the real hunter/gathering societies but there are some commonalities. The most important are gathering or harvesting fish from the sea, shellfish from the tidal zones (we did not hunt sea mammals but easily could have), and animals from the land (at times we took swimming deer from the sea). Our activities could not be termed "hunting" as is used by white sportsmen. When we went out for a moose, a deer, a goose, a duck, a salmon, a red snapper, rock fish or cod, we knew where they would be as well and as surely as we knew where to find the oysters and clams and rice root and miners' lettuce and camas. We also knew when they would be there as well as we knew when the berries are ripe. It was no more "hunting" than when you or I go to the supermarket and "hunt" for the product we want. Were there times of shortage? Of course, but you always understood what the alternatives were, and preserving food without modern chemicals or equipment is really not difficult. I'm not sure exactly what they were but there had to be something other than hunger which pushed people into fulltime agriculture, and the great civilizations you speak of. I like your comparison of contemporary people with the hunter/gathers. Don Maroc Vancouver Island. Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 23:52:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21170 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19243 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:39:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from crow.a001.sprintmail.com (crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19202 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP255.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.17]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28529 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:36:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384C8EEE.E1FECECE@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:37:03 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Corn Info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 549 Netters, In response to someone's request to have this discussion in the group, I'm forwarding the answers I got so far and ask that others post theirs. I don't have the request anymore- that and the following disappeared from my Inbox and are nowhere else in my messages- but that's another topic. I copied this from a forward to another netter who asked for the results. Alex Hi Alex, Responding to your question on CEW / cultivar interactions. Check out http://www.fuzzylu.com/greencenter/q35/earworm.htm Jubilee (Rogers Seed Co) is widely recognized as having good tolerance to CEW because of tight husks. cheers Alec McErlich Cascadian Farm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 23:52:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21174 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19603 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:39:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from crow.a001.sprintmail.com (crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19559 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP255.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.17]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA29010 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:37:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384C8F18.DCEF8824@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:37:44 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: [Fwd: Corn Info] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------29BEDE7AE6B1FB19FAD8F667" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------29BEDE7AE6B1FB19FAD8F667 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------29BEDE7AE6B1FB19FAD8F667 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29489 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.190]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:01:07 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206200145.007f8e90@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 20:01:45 -0600 To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Corn Info In-Reply-To: <384BFFE0.EEC3655@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Alex, I grew OP'ed Northstine Dent this year for cornmeal (not eathing) from seeds that I got from Johnny's Select Seed in Maine. http://www.johnnyseeds.com The promo went like this Early Yellow corn for the sweetest corn meal. Our favorite for a sweet, delicious corn meal for baking and cereal. 100 days. Nothing about protein but regular dent corn probably is not far off. So far I have the corn, corn sheller but no mill yet. Mike Miller At 13:26 06-12-99 -0500, you wrote: >I have a couple of questions about corn that some of you may be able to >help me with. We slowly expand our farm operation as we get our new >projects worked into a smooth routine. > >My next project is corn. I've gathered and am rebuilding a corn sheller >and cornmeal grinder this winter with the plan to grow our own corn for >cornmeal and some OP corn for eating and selling (no super-sweet for me, >thank you). > >My questions are, where can I find a discussion of things like potential >protein levels for the varieties and which are best for meal. I've grown >Golden Bantam for fresh and really liked the flavor- slightly sweet with >a real strong corn taste- YUM! And I've read that some varieties have >tight husks which resist corn earworms- anyplace where this is >discussed. It seems that seed companies talk about everything but these >aspects. > >Alex > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > --------------29BEDE7AE6B1FB19FAD8F667-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 6 23:57:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21220 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA21907 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:42:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from crow.a001.sprintmail.com (crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21847 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP255.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.17]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00428 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:39:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384C8F93.E9FB6AF1@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:39:47 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: [Fwd: Corn Info] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F5CB7777F7E3C61FC97AFDCC" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 551 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F5CB7777F7E3C61FC97AFDCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------F5CB7777F7E3C61FC97AFDCC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15365 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:51:07 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.146] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6C64170272; Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:45:42 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "waldenfarm@sprintmail.com" Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 01:43:32 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Corn Info X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Contact Walter Goldstein , agronomist with: Michael Fields Agricultural Institiute W2493 County Rd ES East Troy, Wisconsin 53120 262-642-3303 or mfai@mfai.org Walter is part of a group of farmers looking into and developing such OP corn varieties suited to organic production. Margit >My questions are, where can I find a discussion of things like potential >protein levels for the varieties and which are best for meal. I've grown >Golden Bantam for fresh and really liked the flavor- slightly sweet with >a real strong corn taste- YUM! And I've read that some varieties have >tight husks which resist corn earworms- anyplace where this is >discussed. It seems that seed companies talk about everything but these >aspects. > >Alex > --------------F5CB7777F7E3C61FC97AFDCC-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 07:22:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24528 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26107 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 06:58:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26099 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 06:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29809 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:56:02 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18288 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:58:53 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 7 Dec 99 12:50:29 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 7 Dec 99 12:50:05 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:49:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Your Food, Nourished by Toxins Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 552 # Your Food, Nourished by Toxins. (Wired) California lab tests are showing that some fertilizers used by farmers contain toxic waste, and proposed laws would legalize the practice. Well, the French feed herds garbage... http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,32741,00.html?tw=wn1999112 --- klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 07:41:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24705 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06983 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:18:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06949 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA30047 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:16:22 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18350 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:12:43 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 7 Dec 99 13:04:21 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 7 Dec 99 13:04:11 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:04:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: do-it-yourself breeding Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 553 hello dave, (agreeing on most of your mail, BUT - and it's a BIG BUT) >I agree. The breeding enterprise (public AND private) has worked like a >gigantic recurrent selection system, and improved private germplasm always >leaks out eventually into the public domain, to serve as raw material for >new cycles. This is a public good. wrong for europe !! (see below) you also wrote: >>So the varieties we come up with are truly new, not stolen from >>the public pool. The resources, the raw material, is still >>there. Do you want some of these varieties? you can get >>them from the USDA: and mark champagn's answer: >Dale's reasoning seems (as usual) fairly solid, but what is >being proved? That sexual recombination in plant breeding is >difficult? Yes. That it is expensive? OK. That it requires >organization of people and across space? Definitely. as i got my first degree in horticulture (where varieties are more valuable than in agriculture and where there are much more varieties than in agriculture - think of apples, there are about 40.000!! varieties of dahlia. well, there are also more than 100.000 varieties of rice, we actually have a guest professor from china working on variety testing, who told me that), i as a vegetable gardener certainly am very thankful to the work of private breeders and it's out of discussion for me, that they have their share in today's improvements of plant cultivation and we will have to pay their impressive work (esp. in vegetable breeding) like everybody else. nevertheless i see some excesses in the legal aspects of properties in AGRIculture. (a first start for the basics might be rafi's article on their homepage rafi.org, look out for "plant breeders rights and wrongs" and especially the behavior of breeders from "down-under". they STOLE germplasm and even CGIAR and the other breeders were extremely upset. another very good source from the same homepage is the work of the dag hammarskoel foundation in norway: "the parts of life", written by p.r. mooney) the situation here in europe: the ENTIRE public germplasm of britain (and afiak austria) was sold to zenica. most of the very valuable grain germplasm from russia (some say it's was the most valuable wheat germplasm worldwide and russia always in lack of foreign exchange) was also sold out to private companies. so "gone with the wind" for farmers, who would try to get it from public sources. another problem: even if i can get it from a germplasm center like ars-grin, cimmyt, clima or grdc or singer, the public law would still force me to pay royalities (an automatic system, where every farmer has to pay a certain amount of money depending on his seeding area, it's assumed, that he buys certified seed for half of this area - for which he pays the full royality - and the other half from his own multiplication, for which he has to pay royalities to a fund. the money collected there is distributed among the national breeders) still worse: even if i managed to multiply the sample from the public germplasm centers (would it be more than 1 pound?), it would be highly ILLEGAL to even offer one single grain FOR FREE to my neighbor. trade, marketing and exchange are EXCLUSIVELY allowed within the four generations "pre-basic", "basic" and "certified 1.generation" and "certified 2.generation". NO WAY OUT of that except by a fine of about 10.000$ plus the loss for the fund (and you still have to destroy it). that makes the PURELY THEORETICAL option "multiplying publicly available germplasm" a farce!! in whole europe PRACTICALLY it isn't possible ANY MORE !!!! the line between 'theoretical' and 'practical' is not so fine as often claimed. comparing american rights of saving seeds vs. these in europe, that makes your country a paradise for home-saved seed growers. give to the king, what belongs to him. but only give, what really belongs to him and nothing more !! we in europe meanwhile will have to give to him, what definitely does not belong to him !! americans, take care !! klaus --------------- klaus wiegand +-[Quote of the day, powered by k. wiegand]---+ | | | I knew I was an unwanted baby | | when I saw that my bath toys | | were a toaster and a radio. | | Joan Rivers | +---------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 08:01:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24910 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA25277 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:45:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25272 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep2-163-72.intrepid.net [209.190.163.72]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27039 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:42:24 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <384BFFE0.EEC3655@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:44:35 -0400 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Corn Info Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 554 This is off-topic within topic.... For an article I'm writing on native american use of corn, I'm looking for a definition of 'nixtamalisation' that I can reference (I'm not finding it in any of the on-line dictionaries (that I can afford) or in any of my reference books here. ("Nixtamalisation" is the name of the process used by native americans to alter the nutritional content of corn by applying alkaline substances to it (be it woodash or lime). The process removed the hulls from the corn, but it also made many nutrients in the corn (notably B-vitamins and tryptophan) more available for human assimilation. If you have a reference for a definition of this word, it w.b. greatly appreciated. Thanks -Allan Balliett claymont farm CSA csa@claymont.org igg@igg.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 08:43:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25327 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14763 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14702 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from the-network-asy-75.rutgers.edu (the-network-asy-75.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.75]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14240; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:13:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: the-network-asy-75.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.75] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <384D322E.1897@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:13:34 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: sanet Subject: Re: WTO Opposition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 555 > At the core of it, WTO opponents are responding to *symptoms* of the > same powerful deflationary forces already affecting agriculture. > Workers in other industries are seeing only the leading edges of > "global competitiveness," but not recognising the fierce competition > for markets as another form of goods chasing money. This was a short and depressing summary. Wish I could disagree. Just one thing nagging. You said: > Environmentalists > are not yet recognising the liquidation of natural capital as a > desperate struggle to generate cash. In my personal experience, ONLY environmentalists are recognizing the driving forces, or at least talking about them. Wonder if your "environmentalists" are different from mine. Loren Muldowney To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 09:50:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26229 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14599 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:26:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14582 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0191.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.170.191]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18957; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384B3ACB.71CF7181@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:25:47 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Hinds CC: Roberto Verzola , WILSONDO@phibred.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: do-it-yourself breeding References: <199912032335.HAA09311@phil.gn.apc.org> <8908.991203@acnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 556 The Bible does NOT say that money is the root of all evil. It says it is the LOVE OF money that is the root of all evil. Douglas Hinds wrote: > (Waxing poetic) > > Hi Roberto, > > Saturday, December 04, 1999, 12:37:12 AM, you wrote: > > RV> That miracle continues, everytimeknowledge is shared or a seed > RV> grows and bears fruit. > > RV> Knowledge and seeds are meant to be shared. > > This time Roberto and I agree. And what he just said touches on a > *very* interesting concept. Roberto mentions two things whose right > use he claims (and I agree) properly and inherently involves sharing. > The suggestion is that the miracle he referred to *does* have > something to do with the act of sharing itself, at bottom. This in > turn suggests that there are things that are little good at all > *unless* they are shared, things that are *inherently* good *only > when* they're shared. > > And then we have people who *can't* share, who are in fact *afraid* to > share, who curiously feel more comfortable dealing with corporations > rather than people, as if they were more trustworthy. (thought you'd > like that RV) > > What makes that happen. Isn't there something lacking here? Aren't we > talking about a lack of maturity, a fatal character flaw, an inability > to perceive, enjoy and (yes) share something that's inherently good > when shared, and inherently *bad* when efforts are made to circumvent > that, to prevent that from happening. People who can only abstract > things, and do that only for one reason - to detach themselves from > life itself, under a boatload of pretexts that include transforming > these good things into something a little better adapted to being > converted into (you guessed it) the root of all evil, $$$. > > And it's all done so damn *reasonably*, the reasons for the GMO's, for > making a little money (what's so wrong with that? - nothing, of > course). But underlying it all, there's that defect - that glaring > and sinister dark vacuum - that absence of humanity, and the inability to > share and perceive pleasure sharing. > > The worst part of it is that there seem to be more of these bugs on > the list than there used to be. The best part of it that more and > mote people seem to be piercing the smoke screen and taking a stand > *opposed* to exploitation, to downgrading the quality of life, to > needlessly contaminating the biosphere and running needless risks to > put the lives of all at peril, just to make a little money (what's so > wrong with that)? > > There's no ethical issue here, and no need to abstract anything or > make it academic. Just a gut issue. Nobody's impressing anybody. But > who's got his or her heart in the right place? Fewer people are > sitting back and swallowing all the lies about how it's all for our > own good, and of course so damn reasonable. > > DH > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 09:50:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26233 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15062 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:28:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.internet.com.mx (mail.internet.com.mx [200.10.239.229]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14998 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (customer246-139.uninet.net.mx [200.23.246.139] (may be forged)) by mail.internet.com.mx (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA25314; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:24:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991207082420.00750834@mail.internet.com.mx> X-Sender: danamex@mail.internet.com.mx X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:24:20 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Ronald Nigh Subject: Corn Info (nixtamal) Cc: igg@igg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id JAA15013 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 557 Dear Allan, I'm not sure what references you need, but the term nixtamal is a nahuatl word refering specifically to the whole corn kernels after boiling with lime and before grinding. The word has ben adopted in Mexican Spanish (and English, I guess!) with the same meaning. After the corn is ground it become 'masa' (dough). The standard reference on the nutritional effects of the process is: Katz, Solomon, M.L. Hediger y L.A. Valleroy. 1974 Traditional maize processing techniques in the New World. Science Vol. 184: 765-73 which cites earlier lab work. Is this what you are looking for? Ronald Nigh Dana, A.C. Mexico, D.F. & San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas Tel. y FAX 525-666-73-66 (DF) 529-678-72-15 (Chiapas) danamex@mail.internet.com.mx To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 09:51:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26247 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16573 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:32:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA16559 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 07:16:36 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 07:25:25 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: biocontrol-l@bdt.org.br, sals@rain.org, sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu, jdietrick@west.net Subject: Re: "natural" miticide -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id JAA16569 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 558 Sal, at present I do not think that this will impact your situation, these authorities already exist, the bill, as I currently understand it, is intended to streamline and clarify the authority and issues involved and is more aimed at invasive species and plant pests. We have a long history of creating pests by importing species either intentionally or by accident that get out side of their native habitat and run amuck. There are also APHIS rules pending that speak to quality standards for bio-control agents. These are intended to assure that when you purchase any of these agents that they will arrive in a viable state and at least in theory will perform as expected if properly used. I will try to get on top of these issues and get back to you. We are working on so many pest management issues that the bio-control issues seem to take the back seat, though most of us recognize their importance to all of agriculture as well as the small organic community. Unfortunately, and I will leave it to you to rant on this one, in the U.S. very little is expended on bio-control research compared to Europe. The natural essential oils that have been mentioned have I believe all been registered as active ingredients either individually or under a blanket registration by EPA. The problem comes with getting anyone with the capacity to deliver a technically standardized product with a legal EPA label to the market in quantity for a reasonable cost. The efficacy issue is a whole other problem and it is difficult to get demand till you demonstrate efficacy in a wide variety of applications and it is difficult to pay for such work unless you have a high potential demand. Your nematode example, the encapsulated Bt issue, the Spinosad example that came up recently, and what we see coming with the reduced risk pesticides (where a great deal is being spent on research in this country) are a pet peeve of mine. They also define one of the poison pill issues that the perversion of the organic theory and philosophy to center on non-use of synthetic inputs in general and pesticides specifically has presented to the organic industry. The 1/110 of 1% in the nematode formulation that has been rejected by the organic community is an anti-microbial and allowed the delivery of a dry medium with a high predatory nematode count that had a shelf life of several months, it was very easy to handle compared to a damp sponge with nematodes that has a shelf life of fifteen minutes to several days depending on handling. As Bart often says "go figure". As I often say "the organic community shoots them selves in the foot again" no news here. The other two are virtually the same issue. The encapsulated Bts are a Biotech product, at one time we thought that all the topical Bts would go this route. The Bt gene is spliced into another bacterium that is then vat-cultured, killed and the resultant Bt crystals encapsulated in the dead engineered bacterium are a technically superior method of delivering topically applied Bt toxin. Well the organic issue first appeared to center around the viability of the *dead* bacteria. T! he conversation between myself and one of my colleagues at EPA was hysterical. As I remember, it went some thing like this: *Well how dead are these little buggers?* * How dead do you want them to be Ted?* *I asked first.* *Is dead, dead, very damn dead, dead enough?* *I hope so, but I doubt it.* The rest is history, do all those bullets in your feet hurt or do you like the pain. Well Spinosad looks great but the formulations have those nasty synthetic inert ingredients I suppose. As this next generation of low/reduced risk pesticides mostly synthetic or suspended in various synthetic inert ingredients come into use more and more in conventional production systems how do you separate your organic products from the conventional? You can*t legitimately claim that they are safer now, what do you do then? It may not be a problem though, most of you will have died from blood loss from all those foot wounds. I will try to get back to you on the Bio-control issues, you probably won*t believe me anyway but we try to serve every body even if they don*t like us. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 09:56:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26332 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14601 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:26:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14586 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0191.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.170.191]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19101; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 06:23:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384B44D3.DC18A15C@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:08:36 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Addison CC: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Impact of soil biology on nutritional quality References: <199912032310.SAA29494@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> <38487127.9DECD1A9@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 559 Some man already did such study--of course I forget his name, but surely ACRES USA could tell you----or I will wake up in the middle of the night and remember it. He found that hybrids did not have the trace mineral amount compared to OP, etc etc. Maybe it is in the Primer index under hybrid. Keith Addison wrote: > > > She is interested in investigating crop nutritional > > > quality as a function of a crops genetic potential for > > > nutritional quality and interactions with species such as rhizosphere > > > colonists, > > > > Very good area of study, possibly she could consider open pollinated > >crops in comparison to their hybrid cousins...looking at mineral > >content, vitamins, etc. I believe OP usually willl uptake a more varied > >nutrient mix, tho sometimes fail on depleted soils where hybrids > >willget by. > > Im still a firm believer that the real limiting factor in uptake of > >nutrient by any particular crop is the soil the crop is grown > >in....Study of nutrient uptake for the improvement of the "genome" is > >certainly warranted, but is still a bandaid , I believe ,in comparison > >to studying methods/theories on soil balancing... > >which is truly a multi-lifetime endeavor. > >bill evans > > From memory, in the mid-80s Britain's Soil Association published > figures from the US showing a protein decline in wheat from 15% to 8% > (?) in the previous few decades. The SA would have seen that as a > matter of farming methods and soil practices as well as crop variety > changes. > > I'm sorry, these references are in my library, but half my library is > 5,000 miles south of here! (where it's in good use at least). > > Sir Albert Howard's work might also be of interest. He's mostly known > as the man who developed Indore composting and founded the organics > movement, but most of his work in India was on improving varieties, > mainly of wheat. He and his wife formed a brilliant scientific team > during a long career in India. They achieved good results with the > wheat, but this was as a part of an overall strategy that also > included Indore composting and early work with mycorrhiza, and had a > strong focus on soil management, as well as on the real requirements > of Indian cultivators. A good reference is "Sir Albert Howard in > India", by L.E. Howard, Faber, London, 1953. It's more about his work > than a biography. It's online at Steve Solomon's Soil & Health > Library: > http://www.soilandhealth.org/index.html > > In these three cases it might be possible to determine the influence > of crop variety: > > On Oct 6 Steve Driver wrote (SANET): > > >"The Healing Power of Minerals, Special Nutrients and Trace > >Elements" by Paul Bergner (1997, Prima Publishing, Rocklin, CA) > >includes USDA figures that show a decline in mineral and vitamin > >content of several fruits and vegetables between 1914, 1963, and > >1992. Table 1 is a summary of mineral decreases in fruits and > >vegetables over a 30-year period, adapted from Bergner's book. > > On 16 Nov 1999 Chris Alenson posted a message "Food nutrition and > soil regeneration" (SANET) listing changes in nutritional content > with improved soil management in Australia. > > Rodale's current "Letter to the USDA" campaign focuses on studies of > government reports in the US and UK which revealed significant > declines in mineral and vitamin content in a variety of raw fruits > and vegetables in recent decades. > http://www.organicgardening.com/articles/article2.html > > I hope this helps. > > Keith > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 09:59:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26416 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19746 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:35:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.96.18]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19660 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([131.104.224.147] (may be forged)) by ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07028 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:32:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384D1A7D.4D843585@uoguelph.ca> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 09:32:30 -0500 From: Glen Filson Reply-To: gfilson@uoguelph.ca Organization: Rural Extension Studies, Univ. of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Conference on Post-Soviet Agri-food X-Corel-MessageType: EMail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 560 CALL FOR PAPERS: Spotlight on Post-Soviet Agri-food Feb. 24, 25, 26, College Inn Hotel and Conference Centre, 716 Gordon St., Guelph, Ontario Abstracts of papers are invited on post-Soviet agriculture to be presented at a University of Guelph, School of Rural Extension Studies sponsored conference on Feb. 24, 25, 26, 2000. Academic papers will be presented on Feb. 25th and 26th. Some of the guest speakers include: Dr. Eugenia Serova, Head of Agrarian Policy Division, Insitute for Economy in Transition, Moscow Dr. Sergei Kiselev, Russian Deputy Ministry of Agriculture and Food Dr. David B. Epshtein, Hab. Dr., Professor, North – West Research Institute for Agricultural Economics, Russian Academy of Agricultural Sciences, St. Petersburg; Prof. Stephen Wegren, Political Science, Southern Methodist University, Dallas, Texas Dr. Valery Patsiorkovski, Institute for Socio-Economic Studies of the Population, RAS, Moscow Prof. Valery Khozhempo, Deputy Dean, Faculty of Economics, People’s Friendship University, Moscow Prof. Alexander Makeev, Director, Foundation for Agrarian Development, Moscow State University Dr. Andrew Reed, Agricultural/Land Economist Consultant (WB, Arthur Anderson, etc.), Russia/Canada; Prof. Fred Eidlin, Political Scientist, University of Guelph Victor Surkov, President, Moskovsky Market, Samara, Russia Prof. Yakov Orlov, Advisor to Moscow City Government, Food Retailing Alexander Karpushin, Development Director, JSC "Perekriostok", Moscow Nihat Dursum, Store Manager, Ramenka Ltd., Moscow Eugeni Zimnitky, General Director, "Trading House Eugny", St. Petersburg Through a variety of lectures, plenary and workshop sessions and social opportunities, this Conference will address the main issues of interest to agri-food businesses, Canadian Government officials and North American academics interested in post-Soviet agriculture. Abstracts are still invited of 300 words or less by potential faculty and graduate students on any of the following or related topics discussed by the keynote speakers. Final selection of abstracts will be made on January 15th, 2,000. C O N F E R E N C E O V E R V I E W: (see www.uoguelph.ca/~fsa-conf for other details): For further information: Please contact: Conference Chair, Prof. Glen C. Filson Rural Extension Studies University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 gfilson@oac.uoguelph.ca Fax: 519-836-9941; Tel: 519-824-4120 Ext. 6231 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Dec 7 08:19:22 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25037 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29706 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:58:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29649 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 202; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 06:56:28 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991207065140.03428570@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 06:51:40 -0600 To: biotech_activists@iatp.org From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: CORN GROWERS SAY WTO FAILURE IS GOOD NEWS FOR FAMILY FARMERS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id HAA29657 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 561 News from the American Corn Growers Association Contact: Keith Dittrich, 402-268-7786 Dittrich, 402-268-7786 David Senter, 202-331-4348 acga@acga.org CORN GROWERS SAY FAILURE TO REACH WTO AGREEMENT IS GOOD NEWS FOR FAMILY FARMERS Real WTO Agenda Was To Eliminate Farm Programs WASHINGTON, DC…..December 6, 1999---American Corn Growers Association (ACGA) President Keith Dittrich, a corn producer from Tilden, Nebraska, witnessed the collapse of trade talks this past Friday as part of the World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting in Seattle. While U.S. negotiators pushed for a reduction in tariffs on agricultural commodities, they also pushed for reductions in farm supports in other countries proposing "significant reductions in farm subsidies both here in the U.S. and abroad." "In no way would this have been a good agreement for American agriculture," stated Dittrich. "This discussion was really an attempt to dismantle farm programs here and around the world. This agreement did not address the rights of every nation to develop their own national farm policy. It did not take into account the differences in monetary, environmental, and social policies and standards of living of our trading partners." The ACGA believes that family farmers should not be pitted against their foreign counterparts to the advantage of multinational grain exporting and processing companies. Farm programs must be allowed to exist to encourage fair prices if family farm agriculture is to survive. Hopefully our negotiators will take a different approach next time and recognize the uniqueness and multifunctionality of the family farm agricultural system. While the ACGA encourages expanded export markets for corn, exporting domestic production below cost of production levels does nothing to help U.S. farmers. This is especially true with the only real growth in corn utilization coming from the domestic marketplace. (More) "Without increases in farm price support levels, farm gate prices will stay at current historic lows. This trade agreement being pushed by the U.S. would have kept low prices in place for years to come," added Dittrich. A recently released chart by the ACGA showing key indicators of the farm sector covering the last 25 years, shows that major reductions in farm price supports and several major trade agreements have not improved exports of basic commodities, including corn. "Instead of chasing pie in the sky trade deals that have not boosted farm exports nor worked to the advantage of family farmers, the Administration and Congress should address major changes to the current farm program. This would have a genuine positive affect on farm prices and farm income," concluded Dittrich. XXXX Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) cell phone 612-385-7921 mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org See the WTO in Action at: http://www.wtowatch.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 10:42:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27090 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06820 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:15:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06804 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cu-dialup (D6192.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.138]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA10355; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:13:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991207100717.00b36c20@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-Id: <4.1.19991207100717.00b36c20@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:10:31 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Gilbert W. Gillespie Jr." Subject: Job Posting: NYSAWG Executive Director Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_5846929==_" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 562 --=====================_5846929==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" New York Sustainable Agriculture Working Group (NYSAWG, Inc.) JOB ANNOUNCEMENT (12/06/1999): Executive Director NYSAWG, Inc. is seeking a full-time executive director to coordinate its work of promoting a local and regional food and agricultural system in New York State through its coalition-building for policy advocacy and support of agriculture-based economic development for farmers and communities. The director will coordinate NYSAWG’’s networking with NYS environmental, farm, consumer, farmworker, education/land grant and faith groups, which together can better, foster a sustainable food system. This work will include monitoring important food system issues, developing financial and volunteer support, coordinating legislative policy briefings, and working with programs that promote rural economic development. Responsibilities: --Work with the NYSAWG Board of Directors, its committees, and other staff to craft and promote NYSAWG's public presence. --Lead NYSAWG's legislative education efforts, including organizing policy briefings, meetings and conferences, developing extensive phone contacts and supervising maintenance of a phone/FAX/e-mail legislative alert network. --Oversee development of materials such as the newsletter, policy analysis reports, and media advisories. --Develop and oversee programs in community, agricultural, and food system development consistent with NYSAWG's mission, such as small-scale food processing and direct marketing of agricultural products. --With guidance and support from Finance Committee, prepare annual budgets and quarterly financial statements; oversee all financial functions of NYSAWG, including bookkeeping, accounting, payroll and benefits --With guidance and support from the fund raising committee and other NYSAWG staff, raise funds to cover operating expenses of NYSAWG; research and prepare grant proposals; develop relations with funders; prepare timely reports, etc. --Coordinate supporter outreach and volunteer recruitment. --Oversee office administration, including supervision of other paid staff and coordination of volunteers. Qualifications: --Knowledge of food and agricultural systems (producing, processing, marketing, and distribution) with experience in New York State preferred. --Commitment to promoting sustainable and socially just farm and food policies. --Ability to recruit, motivate, and coordinate people of different backgrounds and interests. --Excellent interpersonal skills, including ability to work as a member of a team, comfortable with leading and empowering others to lead. --Demonstrated ability to prioritize activities, meet deadlines, and create and work within a well-defined organizational structure. --Experience in planning and carrying out successful public events. --Experience in successful fund raising. --Ability to speak and write clearly and appropriately to diverse groups, including farmers, other NYSAWG supporters, and policy makers. --Proficiency with word processing and e-mail communications. --Ability and willingness to travel. --Have reliable vehicle and valid drivers license. Location: Preferable location at the NYSAWG office in Rochester, NY. Salary commensurate with skills and experience. Benefit plan. To Apply: Send a letter highlighting your interest in the position, relevant strengths and experience, a resume, and names and contact information for three references to: NYSAWG Personnel Committee, c/o Elizabeth Henderson, 2218 Welcher Road, Newark, NY 14513. Applications may be e-mailed to ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com. Deadline for applications is February 1, 2000. NYSAWG is an Equal Opportunity Employer. NYSAWG is a statewide consortium of farmers, environmentalists, consumers, faith groups, anti-hunger groups, minority farm and farm worker organizations, labor organizations, and others. NYSAWG’’s mission is to promote a food system that is environmentally sound, economically viable, socially just and humane, and assures food security for all. This mission is pursued through: --raising awareness of issues affecting the sustainability of the food and agricultural system through a newsletter, public policy briefings, and regional meetings; --fostering coalitions of groups and individuals working to realize our shared vision; --creating and supporting projects that help sustain New York farms and strive to attain food security for all; and --promoting and supporting policies at the local, state, and national levels that increase the sustainability of the food and agricultural system. --=====================_5846929==_ Content-Type: application/rtf; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="NYSAWG job ann 120699.rtf" {\rtf1\ansi \deflang1033\deff0{\fonttbl {\f0\fnil \fcharset0 \fprq2 Times New Roman;}{\f1\fnil \fcharset0 \fprq2 Courier New;}{\f2\fnil \fcharset0 \fprq2 Arial;}}{\colortbl \red0\green0\blue0;\red255\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue128; \red128\green0\blue128;\red0\green0\blue255;} {\stylesheet{\fs20 \snext0 Normal;} {\*\cs1 \additive\v \additive\v Comment;} {\*\cs2 \additive \additive\cf1 HTML Markup;} {\*\cs3 \additive Variable;} {\*\cs4 \additive\f1\fs20 Typewriter;} {\*\cs5 \additive Strong;} {\*\cs6 \additive\f1 Sample;} {\s7 \qc\sl0 \brdrb\brdrdb15\brdrcf0 \cfpat2\cbpat2\shading10000 \v \v\cf2\f2\fs16 zTop of For;} {\s8 \qc\sl0 \brdrt\brdrdb15\brdrcf0 \cfpat2\cbpat2\shading10000 \cf2\f2\fs16 zBottom of ;} {\s9 \sl0\tx0\tx958\tx1917\tx2876\tx3835\tx4794\tx5754\tx6712\tx7671\tx8630\tx9360 \f1\fs20 Preformatted;} {\*\cs10 \additive\f1\fs20 Keyboard;} {\*\cs11 \additive\cf3 FollowedHype;} {\*\cs12 \additive\cf4 Hyperlink;} {\*\cs13 \additive Emphasis;} {\*\cs14 \additive\f1\fs20 CODE;} {\*\cs15 \additive CITE;} {\s16 \li360\ri360\sl0\tx-360\tx0\tx360\tx1080\tx1800\tx2520\tx3240\tx3960\tx4680\tx5400\tx6120\tx6840\tx7560\tx8280\tx9000 Blockquote;} {\s17 Address;} {\s18 \fs16 H6;} {\s19 \fs20 H5;} {\s20 H4;} {\s21 \fs28 H3;} {\s22 \fs36 H2;} {\s23 \fs48 H1;} {\*\cs24 \additive Definition;} {\s25 \li360\sl0\tx-360\tx0\tx360\tx1080\tx1800\tx2520\tx3240\tx3960\tx4680\tx5400\tx6120\tx6840\tx7560\tx8280\tx9000 Definition L;} {\s26 Definition T;} {\s27 Normal;} {\*\cs28 \additive\cf4 SYS_HYPERTEXT;} }\margl1440\margr1440\ftnbj\ftnrestart\aftnnar \sectd \sbknone\endnhere {\*\pnseclvl1\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl2\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl3\pnlcrm\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl4\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl5\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcrm\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl7\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1} \pard \sl0 {\plain New York Sustainable Agriculture Working Group (NYSAWG, Inc.)\par }{\*\bkmkstart BM_1_}{\*\bkmkend BM_1_}{\plain \par }{\plain JOB ANNOUNCEMENT (12/06/1999): Executive Director\par }{\plain \par }{\plain NYSAWG, Inc. is seeking a full-time executive director to coordinate its work of promoting a local and regional food and agricultural system in New York State through its coalition-building for policy advocacy and support of agriculture-based economic development for farmers and communities. The director will coordinate NYSAWG\'92\'92s networking with NYS environmental, farm, consumer, farmworker, education/land grant and faith groups, which together can better, foster a sustainable food system.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain This work will include monitoring important food system issues, developing financial and volunteer support, coordinating legislative policy briefings, and working with programs that promote rural economic development.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain Responsibilities:\par }{\plain --Work with the NYSAWG Board of Directors, its committees, and other staff to craft and promote NYSAWG's public presence.\par }{\plain --Lead NYSAWG's legislative education efforts, including organizing policy briefings, meetings and conferences, developing extensive phone contacts and supervising maintenance of a phone/FAX/e-mail legislative alert network.\par }{\plain --Oversee development of materials such as the newsletter, policy analysis reports, and media advisories.\par }{\plain --Develop and oversee programs in community, agricultural, and food system development consistent with NYSAWG's mission, such as small-scale food processing and direct marketing of agricultural products.\par }{\plain --With guidance and support from Finance Committee, prepare annual budgets and quarterly financial statements; oversee all financial functions of NYSAWG, including bookkeeping, accounting, payroll and benefits\par }{\plain --With guidance and support from the fund raising committee and other NYSAWG staff, raise funds to cover operating expenses of NYSAWG; research and prepare grant proposals; develop relations with funders; prepare timely reports, etc.\par }{\plain --Coordinate supporter outreach and volunteer recruitment.\par }{\plain --Oversee office administration, including supervision of other paid staff and coordination of volunteers.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain Qualifications:\par }{\plain --Knowledge of food and agricultural systems (producing, processing, marketing, and distribution) with experience in New York State preferred.\par }{\plain --Commitment to promoting sustainable and socially just farm and food policies.\par }{\plain --Ability to recruit, motivate, and coordinate people of different backgrounds and interests.\par }{\plain --Excellent interpersonal skills, including ability to work as a member of a team, comfortable with leading and empowering others to lead.\par }{\plain --Demonstrated ability to prioritize activities, meet deadlines, and create and work within a well-defined organizational structure.\par }{\plain --Experience in planning and carrying out successful public events.\par }{\plain --Experience in successful fund raising.\par }{\plain --Ability to speak and write clearly and appropriately to diverse groups, including farmers, other NYSAWG supporters, and policy makers.\par }{\plain --Proficiency with word processing and e-mail communications.\par }{\plain --Ability and willingness to travel.\par }{\plain --Have reliable vehicle and valid drivers license.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain Location: Preferable location at the NYSAWG office in Rochester, NY.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain Salary commensurate with skills and experience. Benefit plan.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain To Apply: Send a letter highlighting your interest in the position, relevant strengths and experience, a resume, and names and contact information for three references to: NYSAWG Personnel Committee, c/o Elizabeth Henderson, 2218 Welcher Road, Newark, NY 14513. Applications may be e-mailed to }{\field{\fldinst GOTOBUTTON BM_2_ {\plain ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com.}}{\fldrslt }}{\plain \par }{\plain \par }{\plain Deadline for applications is February 1, 2000.\par }{\plain \par }{\plain NYSAWG is an Equal Opportunity Employer.\par }{\plain \par }\sect \sectd \sbknone\marglsxn1419\endnhere {\*\pnseclvl1\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl2\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl3\pnlcrm\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl4\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl5\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcrm\pnstart1{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}} {\*\pnseclvl7\pndec\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1} \pard \sl0 {\plain NYSAWG is a statewide consortium of farmers, environmentalists, consumers, faith groups, anti-hunger groups, minority farm and farm worker organizations, labor organizations, and others. NYSAWG\'92\'92s mission is to promote a food system that is environmentally sound, economically viable, socially just and humane, and assures food security for all. This mission is pursued through:\par }{\plain --raising awareness of issues affecting the sustainability of the food and agricultural system through a newsletter, public policy briefings, and regional meetings;\par }{\plain --fostering coalitions of groups and individuals working to realize our shared vision;\par }{\plain --creating and supporting projects that help sustain New York farms and strive to attain food security for all; and\par }{\plain --promoting and supporting policies at the local, state, and national levels that increase the sustainability of the food and agricultural system.\pard \sl0 }} --=====================_5846929==_-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 11:13:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29080 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20023 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:50:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20019 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-60ppp43.epix.net [209.74.60.43]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id KAA24557 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:48:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384D2E8E.D92D511E@epix.net> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:58:06 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: The Next Agricultural Revolution: Reclaiming the PASAbilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 563 For Immediate Release The Next Agricultural Revolution: Reclaiming the PASAbilities MILLHEIM -- Get ready to "Reclaim the PASAbilities" in food and farming as the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture presents Vandana Shiva, John Todd, and an all-star cast of workshop speakers at the 9th annual Farming for the Future conference Feb. 4 and 5, 2000 in State College, PA. An Alternative Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1993 (Right Livelihood Award), Shiva is an author and world-renowned environmentalist. Her newest book, Stolen Harvest: The hijacking of the global food supply, scrutinizes the impacts of corporate agriculture and genetic engineering on the global food system. Todd, the recipient of the Chico Mendes Environmental Merit Award, among others, is a visiting professor of Ecological Design at the University of Vermont, and was founder of the New Alchemy Institute and is co-founder and director of Living Technologies Inc. His groundbreaking work in ecological design has led to the development of innovative technologies called "living machines" which are capable of biological waste treatment, water purification, and organic food production. Workshop topics during the two-day event will explore the PASAbilities, featuring Diane Kauffman on pastured poultry, Roman Stoltzfoos on grass-based dairy systems, Elaine Ingham on soil health and composting, JJ Haapala and Hope Shand on seed ownership/GMOs/globalization, Elizabeth Henderson on CSA, as well as lots of organic vegetable production, rotational grazing, and value-added marketing sessions. For more information or a registration brochure contact Kate Francis ext. 2 at PASA, P.O. Box 419, Millheim, PA, 16854, 814-349-9856, or email: info@pasafarming.org. or visit the PASA website at www.pasafarming.org -- Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 11:24:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29392 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29915; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:21:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from web804.mail.yahoo.com (web804.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.64]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29391 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:15:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 27919 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Dec 1999 16:14:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19991207161401.27918.qmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.202.222.92] by web804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:14:01 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:14:01 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening Workshop Dec 18 To: CSAlist , sanet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 564 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE WHAT: Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening with Shepherd Ogden WHEN: Saturday, December 18, 1999, 1PM to 3PM WHERE:Claymont Court Mansion, Charles Town, WV CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org Web Information http://www.claymont.org/csa (by 12/10) On Saturday, December 18 at 1:00 p.m. Shepherd Ogden will present a lecture and slideshow on "Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening" in the ballroom of the historic Shenandoah Valley Washington home, Claymont. Claymont Court, a 365-acre organically certified historic estate and site of the annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, is located outside of Charles Town, WV. A master photographer as well as internationally known gardening author and seedsman, Ogden will lecture on the philosophy, principles and techniques of raising beautiful flowers without the use of chemicals. His presentation will illustrated with his slides of interesting flowers and flower gardens from around the world (undoubtedly augmented with anecdotes and commentary about his experiences in gathering a collection of heirloom flower seeds for his seed company, The Cook's Garden ("Seeds and Suppliers for the New American Garden") http://www.cooksgarden.com.)) The afternoon promises to be visually rich and lively and of strong interest to gardeners who have often felt helpless keeping flowers and plants vibrant while dealing with mildews and pests organically. Shepherd Ogden is founder and president of The Cook's Garden, a mail order seed and supply house based in Vermont committed to providing American gardeners with untreated seed of both heirloom and modern gardening plants from around the world. His gardens and seed business have been the subject of articles in Country Journal, Inc., Organic Gardening, Time, Newsweek, Forbes, Vermont Life, Victoria, Martha Stewart Living, Boston Herald, New York Times, and USA Today. Ogden is a former board member of both The Vermont Small Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association and the Garden Writers Association of America. He is the author of four books and more than fifty magazine articles on all aspects of horticulture, agriculture and the environment and has been a contributing editor for both Organic Gardening and National Gardening magazines, where until recently he was Editor at Large. Ogden was the 1988 recipient of the American Horticultural Society's GB Gunlogson Award for "extraordinary and dedicated efforts in the field of horticulture." He has lectured at botanical gardens and appeared at professional and amateur symposia in most regions of the United States, and in 1995 conducted a month long lecture tour of the Czech Republic under the auspices of Volunteers in Overseas Cooperative Assistance (USAID). Ogden currently lectures on Agro-Ecology at Green Mountain College in Vermont and is researching a new book on biotechnology and our food supply. A 1967 graduate of Charles Town High School, he and his wife, Ellen, have two children: Molly (15) and Sam (11). The talk is free and open to the public, but seating is limited, so please RSVP. Shepherd Ogden will bring some of his books to sign and sell. Refreshments will be available. Some 'gifts from the garden' will be available for purchase. This presentation is part of an on-going series of natural gardening and agroecology educational events held at Claymont Court in cooperation with the Claymont Farm Community Supported Agriculture Project. SEATING IS LIMITED AND RESERVATIONS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED!! For more reservations and more information (and for volunteer and internship opportunities) please contact Garden Manager Allan Balliett at (304) 724-6763 or email at csa@claymont.org or on the world-wide-web at http://www.claymont.org/csa A map and directions to Claymont are available at http://www.claymont.org Shepherd Ogden will also be speaking in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia on Wednesday, Dec 16 at the National Conservation Training Center. His topic will be 'Running a Seed Company.' For more information on this free event, contact Mark Madison at mark_madison@fws.gov or http://www.nctc.fws.gov/history/communitylectures.html Materials for editors: - A color photograph of Shep Ogden in his garden is available - A 8.5x11inch flyer in .pdf format is available on email request __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 11:40:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29774 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01535 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:17:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web804.mail.yahoo.com (web804.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.64]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01515 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 27919 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Dec 1999 16:14:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19991207161401.27918.qmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.202.222.92] by web804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:14:01 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:14:01 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening Workshop Dec 18 To: CSAlist , sanet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE WHAT: Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening with Shepherd Ogden WHEN: Saturday, December 18, 1999, 1PM to 3PM WHERE:Claymont Court Mansion, Charles Town, WV CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org Web Information http://www.claymont.org/csa (by 12/10) On Saturday, December 18 at 1:00 p.m. Shepherd Ogden will present a lecture and slideshow on "Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening" in the ballroom of the historic Shenandoah Valley Washington home, Claymont. Claymont Court, a 365-acre organically certified historic estate and site of the annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, is located outside of Charles Town, WV. A master photographer as well as internationally known gardening author and seedsman, Ogden will lecture on the philosophy, principles and techniques of raising beautiful flowers without the use of chemicals. His presentation will illustrated with his slides of interesting flowers and flower gardens from around the world (undoubtedly augmented with anecdotes and commentary about his experiences in gathering a collection of heirloom flower seeds for his seed company, The Cook's Garden ("Seeds and Suppliers for the New American Garden") http://www.cooksgarden.com.)) The afternoon promises to be visually rich and lively and of strong interest to gardeners who have often felt helpless keeping flowers and plants vibrant while dealing with mildews and pests organically. Shepherd Ogden is founder and president of The Cook's Garden, a mail order seed and supply house based in Vermont committed to providing American gardeners with untreated seed of both heirloom and modern gardening plants from around the world. His gardens and seed business have been the subject of articles in Country Journal, Inc., Organic Gardening, Time, Newsweek, Forbes, Vermont Life, Victoria, Martha Stewart Living, Boston Herald, New York Times, and USA Today. Ogden is a former board member of both The Vermont Small Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association and the Garden Writers Association of America. He is the author of four books and more than fifty magazine articles on all aspects of horticulture, agriculture and the environment and has been a contributing editor for both Organic Gardening and National Gardening magazines, where until recently he was Editor at Large. Ogden was the 1988 recipient of the American Horticultural Society's GB Gunlogson Award for "extraordinary and dedicated efforts in the field of horticulture." He has lectured at botanical gardens and appeared at professional and amateur symposia in most regions of the United States, and in 1995 conducted a month long lecture tour of the Czech Republic under the auspices of Volunteers in Overseas Cooperative Assistance (USAID). Ogden currently lectures on Agro-Ecology at Green Mountain College in Vermont and is researching a new book on biotechnology and our food supply. A 1967 graduate of Charles Town High School, he and his wife, Ellen, have two children: Molly (15) and Sam (11). The talk is free and open to the public, but seating is limited, so please RSVP. Shepherd Ogden will bring some of his books to sign and sell. Refreshments will be available. Some 'gifts from the garden' will be available for purchase. This presentation is part of an on-going series of natural gardening and agroecology educational events held at Claymont Court in cooperation with the Claymont Farm Community Supported Agriculture Project. SEATING IS LIMITED AND RESERVATIONS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED!! For more reservations and more information (and for volunteer and internship opportunities) please contact Garden Manager Allan Balliett at (304) 724-6763 or email at csa@claymont.org or on the world-wide-web at http://www.claymont.org/csa A map and directions to Claymont are available at http://www.claymont.org Shepherd Ogden will also be speaking in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia on Wednesday, Dec 16 at the National Conservation Training Center. His topic will be 'Running a Seed Company.' For more information on this free event, contact Mark Madison at mark_madison@fws.gov or http://www.nctc.fws.gov/history/communitylectures.html Materials for editors: - A color photograph of Shep Ogden in his garden is available - A 8.5x11inch flyer in .pdf format is available on email request __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 12:03:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00172 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06097 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:36:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06059 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.73]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 5492300 ; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 12:39:09 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991207113533.007d1100@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:35:33 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Re:WTO In-Reply-To: <199912052310.SAA18104@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 At the risk of starting a thread many may claim as off-topic...here goes. As I was watching the WTO protests with my wife and father-in-law last week he turned to me and said, "They're protesting capitalism." This simple statement sums it up. Globalization and the WTO are the natural outcome of a system which exploits humans and the environment for the sake of profit. Whether you are fighting the WTO on behalf of labor or the environment you are ultimately fighting the system which is subjugating both to ensure a steady flow of capital to the owning class. The president of the National Association of Manufacturers stated on CNN that he is adamantly opposed to adding labor considerations to the WTO talks. He does not want to open that "basket of snakes." Speaking as one snake to the rest of the basket, something must be done to ensure that our interests are considered as important as all the widget makers out there. And while some protesters took advantage of the chaos to do some vandalizing, the core message of the protests is certainly clear: we don't all agree that this system is the best we can devise. But what now, people? Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 12:30:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00664 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA17889 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:04:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17862 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMD0002GQX40D@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:48:34 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Michael Moore/WTO/Seattle To: SANET-mg Cc: rschneider@northpointcom.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 Howdy, all-- I was in Madison last week, working to sustain a public interest sustag research center in a time of big transition and to commemorate Rick Klemme's ten years of service as CIAS director. But my heart was in Seattle and I had proxies there. Thus the work got done in both places. I thought some of you might appreciate this perspective from documentarist and social commentator Michael Moore. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >December 7, 1999 > >Dear Friends, > >They never knew what hit them. They had assumed it >would be business as usual, the way it had been for >decades. Rich men gather, meet, decide the fate of the >world, then return home to amass more wealth. It's the >way it's always been. > >Until Seattle. > >On the morning of November 30, 1999, as government >officials from 135 nations attempted to meet with the >largest gathering ever of corporate executives, tens of >thousands of average everyday working Americans shut >down the city of Seattle and physically prohibited the >hoped-for historic and official merger of the earth's >political and business elite. I was there. I saw it >first-hand. It was a sight I had never seen. > >But there it was. It was a massively representive body of >Americans (and Canadians and Brits and French, etc.), >all of us standing there on the streets between Pine and >Pike -- Teamsters and turtle-lovers, grandparents and >Gap clerks, the homeless and computer geeks, high >school students and Alaskans, nuns and Jimmy Hoffa, Jr., >airplane mechanics and caffeinated slaves from Microsoft. >A few were professional protesters, but the majority >looked as if this was their first exercise in a >constitutionally protected redress of grievances. There >were no "leaders," no "movement," no idea of what to do >except stop the World Trade Organization from holding >its secret meeting. > >Only the anarchists seemed organized. They even had >their own anarchist marching band! > >The big labor march grew so large (that's what happens >when so many workers are temps), it broke into six or >seven separate marches, choking off the entire downtown >area of Seattle. > >The beauty of all this is that it just happened. And why >should anyone be surprised? After two decades of >downsizing, wage stagnation, lost health benefits and >the deliberate destruction of the middle class, the bubble >sooner or later had to burst. > >The Fortune 500 brought this on themselves. If they >hadn't been so greedy, if they had been willing to share >even a sliver of the pie, then maybe Seattle wouldn't >have happened. > >But the rich decided to take a piss on their biggest >supporters -- their loyal workers, those Reagan >Democrats -- and there's nothing uglier than a >Teamster who voted for Nixon realizing he's been had. > >It was funny watching how the media presented the >Battle of Seattle ("violent protests" was the mantra), >and while a McDonald's and a Starbucks had their >windows broken, the truth was that 99% of the >participants destroyed no property and took great >pains to treat the city of Seattle with endearing >respect. Seattle is, after all, the only city in the >history of this country to have a general strike (the >entire town refused to show up for work back in 1919). > >The liberal mayor of Seattle, who at first did not want to >be known as a West Coast Mayor Daley, eventually lost >his cool and let his police force run amok. Tear gas and >rubber bullets started flying toward the grandparents and >the nuns. All civil liberties were suspended. They even >had the audacity to use the term, "no protest zones." >Hey, this is America, buddy! Seattle may be considered >one of those groovy "Pacific Rim" cities, but that doesn't >make it Singapore. > >Clinton came to town on the second day. He was so >badgered by the protests, he ended up committing a >sin so serious, it was like he was burning his draft card >all over again. He completely changed his position and >called on all WTO countries to enact laws prohibiting >trade with nations that use children in sweatshops and >do not honor the rights of all workers to organize a >union. Whoa! You see, free trade is an absolute with the >WTO (e.g., trade must never be used as a tool to >accomplish "social" goals). So, for Clinton to climb the >space needle (or was he chased up it?) and then declare >that the human rights of workers were more important >than making a buck, well, this was nothing short of Paul >being knocked off his horse and seeing Jesus! You could >almost hear the collective seething of the hundreds of >CEOs gathered in Seattle. Their boy Bill -- the politician >they had bought and paid for at so many coffee klatches >and Lincoln Bedroom stays --- had betrayed them. You >could almost see them reaching for their Palm Pilots to >look up the phone number of The Jackal. > >It was a tremendous victory for everyone who lives from >paycheck to paycheck. We owe a lot to those brave >souls who got arrested and spent the rest of the week >in jail. > >This is by no means the end of Big Business. The >richest 1% still own 90% of everything in this world. >They will not go down without a fight. > >But they have been put on notice that people from all >walks of life have had their fill and will not let up until we >have a fair, just, and democratic economy. This week, >Seattle was the Lexington and Concord of a movement >that now cannot be stopped. Mark it down, this last great, >important date of the 20th century -- November 30, 1999 -- >The Battle of Seattle, the day the people got tired of having >to work a second job while fighting off the collection agents >and decided it was time the pie was shared with the people >who baked it. > >Yours, >Michael Moore >http://www.michaelmoore.com >MMFlint@aol.com > >P.S. We're still looking for someone to run our web site. >Someone who can write, edit, and make the thing look >like a million rubles. It's a full time job located in our >New York City office. We need someone who, like us, >sees all the subversive, crazy potential of the Internet. >E-mail us at dogfilms@aol.com. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses. -Utah Philips To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 12:50:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01055 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29297 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:30:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29289 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP241.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.3]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25156 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:27:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384D43B0.7617494F@sprintmail.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 12:28:16 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: WTO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 568 Mark, Your comments are as far off topic to sust. ag. as talking about pasture quality when talking about raising quality meat. There's an intimate relation there. You can't have one without the other. And we can't possibly hope to have a sustainable existence with systems that take advantage of some sectors of the community or world inhabitants, be it capitalism, socialism or WTO. Maybe in our all out efforts to devour communism, we've succeeded in devouring ourselves. And maybe there is such a thing as instant karma, or we reap what we sow, or what goes around comes around... Alex P.S. I think your father-in-law had one of those moments of clarity attributed to prophets when the veil was pulled aside for a brief moment. We should listen to these people when this happens. Mark wrote: > At the risk of starting a thread many may claim as off-topic...here goes. > > As I was watching the WTO protests with my wife and father-in-law last week > he turned to me and said, "They're protesting capitalism." This simple > statement sums it up. Globalization and the WTO are the natural outcome of > a system which exploits humans and the environment for the sake of profit. > Whether you are fighting the WTO on behalf of labor or the environment you > are ultimately fighting the system which is subjugating both to ensure a > steady flow of capital to the owning class. > > The president of the National Association of Manufacturers stated on CNN > that he is adamantly opposed to adding labor considerations to the WTO > talks. He does not want to open that "basket of snakes." Speaking as one > snake to the rest of the basket, something must be done to ensure that our > interests are considered as important as all the widget makers out there. > And while some protesters took advantage of the chaos to do some > vandalizing, the core message of the protests is certainly clear: we don't > all agree that this system is the best we can devise. But what now, people? > > Mark > ---------------------------------------------------- > Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) > An independent non-profit organization. > > http://www.buylocalfood.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 12:55:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01147 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00936 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:35:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00881 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 346; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:41:09 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991207113303.03bbba80@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:33:03 -0600 To: Mark , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re:WTO In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991207113533.007d1100@buylocalfood.com> References: <199912052310.SAA18104@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 Amen! At 11:35 AM 12/7/99 -0500, Mark wrote: >At the risk of starting a thread many may claim as off-topic...here goes. > >As I was watching the WTO protests with my wife and father-in-law last week >he turned to me and said, "They're protesting capitalism." This simple >statement sums it up. Globalization and the WTO are the natural outcome of >a system which exploits humans and the environment for the sake of profit. >Whether you are fighting the WTO on behalf of labor or the environment you >are ultimately fighting the system which is subjugating both to ensure a >steady flow of capital to the owning class. > >The president of the National Association of Manufacturers stated on CNN >that he is adamantly opposed to adding labor considerations to the WTO >talks. He does not want to open that "basket of snakes." Speaking as one >snake to the rest of the basket, something must be done to ensure that our >interests are considered as important as all the widget makers out there. >And while some protesters took advantage of the chaos to do some >vandalizing, the core message of the protests is certainly clear: we don't >all agree that this system is the best we can devise. But what now, people? > >Mark >---------------------------------------------------- >Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) >An independent non-profit organization. > >http://www.buylocalfood.com > >893 West Street >Amherst MA 01002-5001 >T: 413-559-5338 >F: 413-559-5404 > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) cell phone 612-385-7921 mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org See the WTO in Action at: http://www.wtowatch.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 13:16:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01605 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08471 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:48:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from blik.skima.is (blik.skima.is [193.4.237.100]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08366 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.30.207.162] by blik.skima.is for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:45:33 Z Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991207180305.0086e680@holar.is> X-Sender: valgeir@holar.is X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:03:05 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Valgeir Bjarnason Subject: Iceland, Norsk Hydro, Environmental impact. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id MAA08400 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 570 Help Sanetters, It is nice to live in a country with a lot of natural and sustainable energy like we do in Iceland. We have big glaciers with lot of rivers and waterfalls and also geothermal energy. We have harnessed part of these sourses so now we are the world greatest producers per capita of electricity. A big part of this energy is used by heavy industry like aluminium and steel. When the rivers and waterfalls are harnessed for power plants big resorvars must be build and big land areas are covered with water. After few days Althing (our parlament) will decide to build a new hydropower plant in eastern Iceland. This will be build for Norsk Hydro´s new aluminium plant. This aluminium plant will first have annual production of 120.000 tonns and is expected to increase its a.p. to 480.000 tonns. For that a big part of our (and Europas) biggest wilderness will be affected. In the beginning a 46 sq km lake must be made by sinking a big vegetated area (named "Eyjabakkar") at the north east corner of Icelands biggest glacier "Vatnajökull" which is important for reindeer and pink footed geese. This is going to be done without any survay on environmental impact on this area. This is not only concerning Icelandic environmental societies but also international like WWF. Norsk Hydro said to WWF that environmental impact survay would not decrease their interrest in building the aluminium plant but to the Icelandic government Norsk Hydro says that all delay will be negative for their interrest! This power plant is not big enough for this 120.000 tonns aluminum plant, another must also be built to fulfill its needs and that is just 25% of the final size so this is just the beginning. Next our (and Europas) biggest waterfall "Dettifoss" will be harnessed and big and beautiful canyons will be filled with water. I do not know if this is the right place to ask for assistance. There are a lot of protesting going on in Iceland. However the majority of our members of Althing (parlament) are going to vote for this plant. The case is now by the commitee for industry and energy of the parlament. The chairman there is Hjalmar Arnason hjalmara@althingi.is and the minister for industry and energy is Finnur Ingolfsson finnur@althingi.is. You could e-mail them and simply aske "Why not environmental impact survay for Eyjabakkar?" They have both asked for the peoples opinion on the case. Thank you, To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 13:47:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02132 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23200 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:27:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umc-mail01.missouri.edu (umc-mail01.missouri.edu [128.206.10.216]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23146 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by umc-mail01.missouri.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:24:29 -0600 Message-ID: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953BE4@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> From: "Webb, Kevin" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Community Food Security Coalition Subject: New web-site on Food circles Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:24:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 571 We are happy, and very relieved, to announce that our web-site is up and running. www.foodcircles.missouri.edu Questions, comments, criticisms and compliments will be happily received. Please feel free to link to our page. Kevin Webb Food Circles Networking Project Department of Rural Sociology University of Missouri-Columbia 105 Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 (573) 882-3776 [573] 882=1473 (fax) webbk@missouri.edu On the web at: www.foodcircles.missouri.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 14:06:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02507 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25277 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:34:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu (franc.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25231 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from Liebhardt (ars97.ucdavis.edu [169.237.82.97]) by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.9.3/UCD3.13.14) with SMTP id KAA06525 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:32:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912071832.KAA06525@franc.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: fzliebha@mailbox.ucdavis.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:37:34 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Bill Liebhardt Subject: GMO labeling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 572 Last Friday in the local paper there was an article about the FDA Washington DC hearing on GMO's. In the article it stated that some of the people who testified said that consumers would be confused by labeling and that they did not know enough about Biotechnology to understand labeling. One was a professor from the University of Maine. Someone representing the Dietetics Assoc. said about the same thing. I guess they consider most consumers as not able to make a judgement regarding these issues. It seems that people who do market GMO products in the US do not want labels or people to have the information they need to make an informed decision. I have not seen anything else on this meeting but that article. Is there anything else on it? Bill Liebhardt To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 15:06:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03944 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08168 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08158 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28114; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:29:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA00037; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (nadamson@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00024; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:29:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: nadamson owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:29:23 -0500 (EST) From: Nancy Lee Adamson To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu cc: Anita Komlodi Subject: agricultural machines - help (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 573 Can anyone help with this? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:40:05 -0500 (EST) From: Anita Komlodi To: nancy Subject: agricultural machines - help Nancy, My uncle teaches in an agricultural school in Hungary and he asked for a video tape of agricultural machines, something that would be used in teaching. I tried John Deer, but no luck, I need something reasonably priced or maybe something from a library that I could convert to the European video standard. Do you have any ideas where to get something like that? I would really appreciate any advice, thanks a lot, Anita To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 16:20:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05686 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA06554 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:52:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06528 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FME00EXO1NBCJ@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:45:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 12:40:03 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Vaguely disturbing clown mascots To: SANET-mg Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov, fhbuttel@facstaff.wisc.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 Howdy, all-- In the past few months I've had several queries for an on-line source of information on the McLibel case and related issues. Check out McSpotlight: http://www.mcspotlight.org/ peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I eat everything. If anything is there, I eat it. I presume it is safe and good. --U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 17:11:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06530 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22681 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:49:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22676 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:45:59 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE494494@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: "'Nancy Lee Adamson'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: agricultural machines - help (fwd) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:43:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 Nancy- I would go first to http://www.farmshow.com/ for Farm Show magazine's site. I know they carry videos of farm machinery. A lot of it goes into custom-built machines, but they should have the connections for stock machines, if that's what you want. Ask the editor. A great rag. -Ralph > -----Original Message----- > > My uncle teaches in an agricultural school in Hungary and he asked for a > video tape of agricultural machines, something that would be used in > teaching. I tried John Deer, but no luck, I need something reasonably > priced or maybe something from a library that I could convert to the > European video standard. > > Do you have any ideas where to get something like that? I would really > appreciate any advice, > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 19:13:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08282 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19750 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:54:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19737 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-152.rain.org [198.68.144.152]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF3051DD11; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:52:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003201bf410d$e3113800$989044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: , "Jan" , References: Subject: Re: "natural" miticide -Reply Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:50:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Rogers" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 12:46 PM Subject: Re: "natural" miticide -Reply > Sal, at present I do not think that this will impact your situation, these authorities already exist, the bill, as I currently understand it, is intended to streamline and clarify the authority and issues involved and is more aimed at invasive species and plant pests. We have a long history of creating pests by importing species either intentionally or by accident that get out side of their native habitat and run amuck. the reason I asked is because this is what I heard "there are folks in the Federal government who have been hostile and obstructionist to sustainable agriculture in the past, the legal authority to cause immeasurable grief to organic agriculture by interpreting these new rules and regulations in exceptional and creative ways. It is probably not true but I heard "the actual purpose of these Proposed Plant protection Act is to slow or stop the growth of the organic food industry by restricting availability of the necessary biological controls tools. thanks for making me feel safe. I thought I read where H.R 1504 and S 910 could cause repression of biological control technology. > There are also APHIS rules pending that speak to quality standards for bio-control agents. These are intended to assure that when you purchase any of these agents that they will arrive in a viable state and at least in theory will perform as expected if properly used. I will try to get on top of these issues and get back to you. We are working on so many pest management issues that the bio-control issues seem to take the back seat, though most of us recognize their importance to all of agriculture as well as the small organic community. Unfortunately, and I will leave it to you to rant on this one, in the U.S. very little is expended on bio-control research compared to Europe. .I thought I read where H.R 1504 and S 910 could cause repression of biological control technology. is this a law that will protect the environment from the environment. looks like the same old same old these laws do not make any distinction between beneficial biological control organisms and harmful "plant pests" just thought some folks in the biocontrol may want to keep a out on these two proposals. > The natural essential oils that have been mentioned have I believe all been registered as active ingredients either individually or under a blanket registration by EPA. The problem comes with getting anyone with the capacity to deliver a technically standardized product with a legal EPA label to the market in quantity for a reasonable cost. The efficacy issue is a whole other problem and it is difficult to get demand till you demonstrate efficacy in a wide variety of applications and it is difficult to pay for such work unless you have a high potential demand. > > Your nematode example, the encapsulated Bt issue, the Spinosad example that came up recently, and what we see coming with the reduced risk pesticides (where a great deal is being spent on research in this country) are a pet peeve of mine. They also define one of the poison pill issues that the perversion of the organic theory and philosophy to center on non-use of synthetic inputs in general and pesticides specifically has presented to the organic industry. What does that mean "perversion of the organic theory " u have to keep it simple for me to understand ? I don't know if I understand u yet I feel the idea that organic means non-use of synthetic inputs in general and pesticides specifically is what makes the organic industry what it is. that's organic that's the whole organic idea summed up in 1 line. I don't see that as a poison pill I see it as a healing. biology. IMHO soil food web biocontrol not chemical control. a better life through biology etc. > The 1/110 of 1% in the nematode formulation that has been rejected by the organic community is an anti-microbial and allowed the delivery of a dry medium with a high predatory nematode count that had a shelf life of several months, it was very easy to handle compared to a damp sponge with nematodes that has a shelf life of fifteen minutes to several days depending on handling. As Bart often says "go figure". As I often say "the organic community shoots them selves in the foot again" no news here. The other two are virtually the same issue. The encapsulated Bts are a Biotech product, at one time we thought that all the topical Bts would go this route. The Bt gene is spliced into another bacterium that is then vat-cultured, killed and the resultant Bt crystals encapsulated in the dead engineered bacterium are a technically superior method of delivering topically applied Bt toxin. Well the organic issue first appeared to center around the viability of the *dead* bacteria. T! I think the reason the organic folks said no to the nematode deal is because there was a organic source that did not have the biocide. guess where there is a will there is a way . To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 19:58:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08843 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11865 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:33:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umailsrv2.umd.edu (umailsrv2.umd.edu [128.8.10.76]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11797 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from umail.umd.edu (hjpatt-75.umd.edu [128.8.84.75]) by umailsrv2.umd.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA19503 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:31:01 -0500 Message-ID: <384DB3F5.C8052E86@umail.umd.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:27:18 -0600 From: "Raymond R. Weil" Organization: University of Maryland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Protected Germplasm Royalties, etc. References: <199912072310.SAA23369@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------01BB368A0D78AD32B71533DF" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 577 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------01BB368A0D78AD32B71533DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although this is not a subject I am very familiar with, I shared Klaus' lament with a friend who is and this was her response: "Thro, AnnMarie" wrote: > The author may be referring to events such the privatization of PBI in Cambridge some years ago, but what Germ Plasm was public then is public now, as is USDA-ARS-maintained public GP, and no royalties need be paid on it. He may be confused with the fact that he would have to pay royalties to use seed of Patent Protected varieties that are stored at Ft. Collins (NSSL), but, that material is not distributed by NSSL until after the Plant Variety Patent has expired, and then it's royalty free. > Ann Marie Thro, Commissioner > USDA/PVPO > Rm. 500 N.A.L. Building > 10301 Baltimore Ave. > Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 USA annmarie.thro@usda.gov --------------01BB368A0D78AD32B71533DF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="rw17.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Raymond R. Weil Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rw17.vcf" begin:vcard n:Weil;Ray R. tel;fax:301 314 9041 tel;work:301 405 1314 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/faculty/weil.htm org:University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 version:2.1 email;internet:rw17@umail.umd.edu title:Professor of Soil Science note:http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/faculty/weil.htm http://www.prenhall.com/books/ect_0138524440.html adr;quoted-printable:;;Dept. of Natural Resource Sciences & L.A.=0D=0A1103b H.J. Patterson Hall;College Park;Maryland;20742;USA x-mozilla-cpt:;992 fn:Ray R. Weil end:vcard --------------01BB368A0D78AD32B71533DF-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 20:36:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09676 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07627 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07525 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from the-ufos-asy-55.rutgers.edu (the-ufos-asy-55.rutgers.edu [128.6.249.55]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA16726; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:08:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: the-ufos-asy-55.rutgers.edu [128.6.249.55] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <384DD9C0.7D2E@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 20:08:32 -0800 From: Loren Muldowney Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raymond R. Weil" CC: sanet Subject: Re: Protected Germplasm Royalties, etc. References: <199912072310.SAA23369@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> <384DB3F5.C8052E86@umail.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 > ago, but what Germ Plasm was public then is public now, as is > USDA-ARS-maintained public GP, and no royalties need be paid on it. He > may be confused with the fact that he would have to pay > royalties to use seed of Patent Protected varieties that are stored at I am guessing that what Klaus was lamenting is the system in effect in Europe. Klaus, fell free to correct me if I guessed wrong! Go to the web site below to get a clue. http://www.futurefoods.com/Leaflet/Jun1998/europe.htm Loren Muldowney To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 7 22:02:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10971 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14137 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:17:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14122 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FME00IIRGQ20G@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:11:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:06:35 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Economic indicators you can use :^) To: SANET-mg Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 Howdy, all-- I'm short on time to take up the WTO thread (on SANET), but I did want to kick in this resource, on the issue of the magnitude of wealth and the density of its concentration. As you try to educate people about what UberMegaMoney is and means, and how that impacts on local decision making and intelligent-scale food systems, some of you might find this Web site provides interesting facts and perspectives: The Bill Gates Net Worth Page http://www.quuxuum.org/~evan/bgnw.html or http://web.quuxuum.org/~evan/bgnw.html A few of the numbers are outdated, but much of it is current, or recent, and it does a good job of putting context to what $73.8 billion means for those of us who still get excited finding an unexpected $20 in our checking accounts. Or dairy farmers facing the lowest per-hundredweight price in over two decades and ruination in a "boom" economy. It includes items such as these (taken verbatim from the Bill Gates Net Worth Page): --Imagine an endless line of $1 bills laid end to end. If you began traveling along this line picking up dollar bills March 13, 1986 (the day Microsoft went public), and you wished to accumulate wealth at the same rate Bill [Gates] has since that date, you would need to travel that line of bills picking them up at 59.22 MPH or 95.31 KPH. --According to the US Treasury Department Learning Center, in Fiscal Year 1997, the United States Government printed currency worth a total of $142.23 Billion. Bill's net worth is 51.90% of that value. --According to CNN FN, as of 12/7/99 , the price of gold is $278.75 per troy ounce. There are 147 million troy ounces of gold in Fort Knox. (Fort Knox is the United States repository for its gold reserves.) All the gold in Fort Knox is, therefore, worth $40,976,250,000 or $40.98 Billion. Bill is worth $32,847,452,779 more than all the gold in Fort Knox! --On December 3, 1998, Bill announced that he was donating $100 million to vaccinate third-world children. While this is certainly a very generous donation, let's put it into perspective. $100 million represents 0.135% of his total net worth. Proportionally, this is the same as someone with a net worth of $100,000 making a donation of $135.45. --What if Bill decided to keep all his cash under his mattress? Let us assume that Bill and Melinda sleep on a King Size mattress. According to the folks at Slumberland Furniture, an American King Sized bed is 78 by 80 inches, or 6240 square inches, or 43 1/3 square feet in area. It takes 397.57 bills to cover a king-sized mattress. Using all of Bill's money (as $1 bills), you could cover the king-sized mattress with bills 185,470,360.44 bills deep. That means Bill would have a jump of 796,010.13 inches or 12.56 miles to get from the bed to the floor each morning, not counting the thickness of the bed itself. --What if you earned the US Minimum Wage? How long would it take you to earn Bill's fortune? As of September 1, 1997, the US Minimum Wage was $5.15 per hour. If you worked continuously, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and saved every bit of your earnings (disregarding taxes), you would need to work for 1,633,354.33 Years to earn Bill's money. If you took the wimpy approach, and only worked 40 hours a week, then it would take 6,860,088.21 Years. And then: --It cost Mike Tyson $3 million (he forfeited 10% of the fight purse) when he bit off a piece of Evander Holyfield's ear in a boxing match. Assuming that piece of ear weighed about 1/2 an ounce, Bill could afford to eat 768.99 pounds of Evander Holyfield if he were so inclined. Eeeeuuuwwwwww. :^) peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you want to know how God feels about money, just look at the people he gave it to. --Dorothy Parker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 00:55:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13211 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10684 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:31:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10629 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:31:26 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.208]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:28:54 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991207232920.0082f8d0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 23:29:20 -0600 To: Subject: Germplasm Royalties & WTO & Connectedness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 >I am guessing that what Klaus was lamenting is the system in effect in >Europe. Klaus, fell free to correct me if I guessed wrong! >Go to the web site below to get a clue. > >http://www.futurefoods.com/Leaflet/Jun1998/europe.htm > Loren, this is a VERY eye opening reference. Thank God the agriculture agreement part of the WTO was delayed in Seattle or we (USA) would likely be put under the same "rules" as Europe is enduring. Talk about living under the heel of oppression. When you can't even GIVE seeds away that you raised, it is time to do a little more than street protests. I was going to comment on one of the earlier posts about the Seattle protests being against capitalism. I was going to say the the problem is not with capitalism per se but that the current capitalism is unrestained by any moral code of behavior. I guess after seeing to what depths of stupidity the greedhead mentality of profit at all costs corporations will go to line their pockets at the peril of the rest of society, it is time to put an end to this folly. When I worked in state government back in the dark ages of college, the new idea was to sunset all appropriations on an annual basis. Each year, each program had to justify it's reason for being in order to get funding. The idea was to weed out programs that no longer served a public purpose but existed just because they had always existed. I propose that corporate charters be similarly sunsetted at a fixed term of years. After all corporations exist because they are given a charter by the state and the charter can be revoked in court by the State Attorney General. The charter could be renewed through a process similar to the license given to a broadcast station. A public hearing would be held where private and public parties could present information about the conduct of the organization and whether it had served the public good during its' last charter period. This information would be used by a charter commission to determine whether they would recommend another charter for the company. Having this system in place would either lead to a corporate overthrow of the government or corporations would start to behave as if there were other people on this earth than just their stockholders. On a lighter note, I noticed in this article from England, the same theme of connectedness to the land that Bromfield mentions existing in France. See below. "Everything not permitted is forbidden. That, alone, is enough of a motivation to save your own seeds. But there is more. In these days of convenience stores and fresh food all year round, it is, if one is so minded, a real pleasure to put food you have grown on your table. Without going all the way to self-sufficiency, the knowledge that you could, if you wanted to, is rewarding far beyond the effort involved. But there is more. When I grow food from seeds that I have saved, I feel a powerful connection with the entire history of agriculture. A chain links one season to the next, one generation to its parents, right back to the first people who deliberately decided to look after some of the plants and animals they ate. When I sow my saved seeds, I am part of that chain. I am a human being." Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 09:50:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17944 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00982 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:27:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailbox.iwaynet.net (IDENT:root@mailbox.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00939 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.244.49.109] (iport409.iwaynet.net [206.244.49.109]) by mailbox.iwaynet.net (8.9.3/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA30565; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:27:41 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:35:51 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, SUSAG-TEAM@postoffice.ag.ohio-state.edu From: oeffa@mailbox.iwaynet.net (Sean McGovern) Subject: Profitable Farm Workshops to be Presented at Wilmington College Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 581 Please excuse cross postings; For Immediate Release: Contact: Sean McGovern 614/267-3663 December 7, 1999 Press Release Profitable Farm Workshops to be Presented at Wilmington College Wilmington College and the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association, (OEFFA), announce the first in a series of Profitable Farm Workshops to be held on February 5, 2000 at Kelly Center on the Wilmington College Campus in Wilmington, Ohio. "Alternatives in Agriculture" is the theme of this first program which will feature well-known Ohio writer and "contrary farmer" Gene Logsdon. Other speakers will include Charles Eselgroth of the Innovative Farmers of Ohio and organic grain and livestock farmer Rex Spray. The fee for the Workshops is $30 which includes lunch. Seating is limited, so pre-registration is recommended. For information contact: Profitable Farm Workshops C/o OEFFA PO Box 82234, Columbus, OH 43202 614/267-3663 (phone) 614/267-4763 (FAX) Email: oeffa@iwaynet.net ## Sincerely, Sean McGovern Executive Director Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association PO Box 82234 Columbus Ohio 43202 (ph) 614/267-3663 (fx) 614/267-4763 email: oeffa@iwaynet.net Visit OEFFA on the World Wide Web at www.greenlink.org/oeffa For OCIA/OEFFA Organic Certification services in Ohio, call OEFFA Certification Coordinator, Sylvia Upp at 419/853-4060 or fax 419/853-3022 For OEFFA's Newsletter submissions and/or ad rate sheets, call Newsletter Editor Anne Bulford at 740/993-2871 or email . Display and classified ads should be sent with payment and camera ready art to: Anne Bulford, 2074 Brownschapel Rd, Clarksburg, Ohio 43115. Extra fees apply for typesetting and design services. Shipping Only- Parhelion Building, OEFFA, 2232 N Summit St, Columbus, Ohio 43202 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 09:50:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00425 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:24:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00419 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.37]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 5433500 ; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:24:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991208092552.007f6690@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:25:52 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: FYI: Genetic food Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 582 December 8, 1999 NUTRITION NEWS FOCUS "Nutrition news is important. We help you understand it!" Today's Topic: Genetically Modified Food Nutrition News Focus begins a weekly series on genetically modified (GM) foods, often referred to in the U.S. as genetically engineered foods. This is an extremely emotional issue and there are no final answers to a lot of the questions in this debate. Scientists are strongly divided on potential risks to people and the environment. But many scientists are surprised that there is opposition to most of the GM foods under development. There has been more publicity in Europe about GM foods than in America. In fact, most Americans have eaten some GM food without knowing it. Once a week, for the duration of this series, we will cover a scientific story or a particular issue that is part of this debate. There has been more emotion than knowledge in many of the disputes. Some GM foods have the potential to improve health around the world. Do we ban these because other foods have the potential for harm? No one has answers on these issues. These will be evolving as new research is published and debated among scientists. In the mean- time, the public needs to get better educated about this issue. This is the object of the upcoming NNF series. If you know someone who is interested in this subject, and we think most people should be, consider sending a copy of this story to him or her. Ask him or her to subscribe now so that he or she will not miss this timely series. Subscription instructions are as usual at the bottom of this story. ******************************************************************** Please recommend Nutrition News Focus to your family and friends. If you like, point your browser to http://www.nutritionnewsfocus.com/cgi-bin/birdcast.cgi where you'll find an easy recommendation form. DISCLAIMER: The information in Nutrition News Focus is intended only to help you understand the Nutrition News. We do not recommend any treatment, food or supplement. It is not intended to replace the advice of a physician. If you read something in this newsletter that in any way contradicts what your physician tells you, TAKE YOUR PHYSICIAN'S ADVICE, NOT OURS. Copyright 1999 Nutrition News Focus Inc. ******************************************************************** * NUTRITION NEWS FOCUS * We take the confusion out of the nutrition news * For a free subscription to our daily email newsletter: * Send a blank email to subscribe@NutritionNewsFocus.com * Or visit our website at http://www.NutritionNewsFocus.com ******************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 10:02:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18133 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02471 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:38:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gold.wvnet.edu (gold.wvnet.edu [129.71.2.25]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02466 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (157.182.7.157:1051) by gold.wvnet.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.41DBB322@gold.wvnet.edu>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 9:38:03 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208090614.009cb820@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jlozier@wvu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:14:31 -0500 To: Misha , SANET-mg From: John Lozier Subject: Re: Vaguely disturbing clown mascots Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov, fhbuttel@facstaff.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 583 Regarding advertising directed at children, I heard Swedish Public Radio yesterday on World Radio Network, and learned to my surprise that Sweden actually bans television advertising directed at children. They interviewed some advertising people who talked candidly about how they get around it. One way around is with satellite transmissions from outside the country, perfectly legal of course. Another is with personal appearances etc. which might be deemed a healthier way to go anyway. The point was that elements in Sweden are trying to extend the ban to the entire EU. I wonder how WTO would treat this issue. It would be great to get the playing field leveled around the globe, but it would have to be level in terms of ecology and culture, not just economics. Sorry if this is deemed off-topic for SANET-MG. It seems pretty hard to separate stuff anymore. At 12:40 PM 12/7/99 -0800, Misha wrote: >Howdy, all-- > >In the past few months I've had several queries for an on-line source of >information on the McLibel case and related issues. > >Check out McSpotlight: >http://www.mcspotlight.org/ > > >peace >mish >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Michele Gale-Sinex >Communications manager >Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >http://www.wisc.edu >UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >I eat everything. If anything is there, I eat it. I presume it is >safe and good. --U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 11:22:30 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19722 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:22:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27604 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27583 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18670 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12501 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id KAA27590 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 584 > From: cyberjournal Subject: Seattle residents report... > Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:27 PM > -----Forwarded Message----- > > Collateral Damage in Seattle > > Report from Portland student Jim Desyllas (posted 12-2-99) > > Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm > Pacific time. > > I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are > getting from the mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. > Clinton claims, a peaceful protest marred by the actions of > violent protesters. This was a massive, strong but peaceful > demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the police > with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to > provide photo opportunities for the Western media. I know > because I watched it happening. I'll tell you how they did > it. > > As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World > Order" (See Note # 1 at end for link to that article) - the > government put a lot of effort into making sure the > protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" who wanted > to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in > Seattle - American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, > college kids from all over, environmentalists from Australia > - you name it - were not for reforming the WTO. They were > for getting rid of it. > > And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed > delegates. None of them had anything favorable to say about > the WTO. Two delegates from the Caribbean were angry about > job loss. One delegate from Peru took a bullhorn and got up > on a car and spoke to the protestors against the World Trade > Organization. He said it hurts the workers and farmers. I > interviewed a Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against > it. Even a delegate from Holland said it had hurt the > farmers there. He said though it is supposedly democratic, > that's actually a lie: the US, England and Canada and a few > others get together and decide what they want to do. Then > they ask the rest of the countries to vote and if they vote > wrong they threaten,"You won't get loans," or whatever. They > get them to do what they want by blackmailing them. The > Italians we interviewed were upset too. I couldn't find any > delegates who were in favor. > > So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the > movement against the WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I > am not guessing about this. I was there. I saw it happening. > And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to see, close up, > just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary > people. Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff > but the truth is - we are nothing to them. I saw this with > my own eyes. > > Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people > were aggressively non-violent; they were self-policing. Up > until Tuesday at 4pm there was one window broken in the > whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares favorably to > the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of > people who were non-violently barring entry to the World > Trade Center! > > At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - > moved in and started gassing people and shooting rubber > bullets. Is it any surprise that people got mad? Of course, > the young kids hit back by breaking some windows in > retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful > pepper gas, and shot with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The > police instigated these kids, plain and simple. > > Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block > the streets. These were trainees. But Tuesday they had the > real cops; none of them were young. They were trained to > attack people. A small group, maybe 100 people total, struck > back. Then these cops herded that group around the city, > making sure there were plenty of photo ops of "violent > protesters." > > A number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught > between buildings and walls of police. They could easily > have arrested and detained this small number of people and > gotten it over with. Instead they would gas them and let > them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again let > them go. The cops made no arrests that I know of until late > Tuesday night though the skirmishing was going on from three > till 9:30. The cops would blockade three or five blocks of > an area, give the angry kids room to operate, keep gassing > them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it gets them > fighting mad. > > Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was > going on from 3 PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids > broke a few windows - McD's, Starbucks - small stuff - > burned a few garbage cans. The police were using these > people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police > had their own people in there, encouraging people to break > stuff - if people think I may be exaggerating, I saw > supposed protesters - they were screaming and so on - and > then later, when everything was over, the same people > tackled other protestors and put handcuffs on them. > > At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they > had pushed the 100 people outside the city limits, so the > police went outside the limits too, and they started gassing > that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where the regular > people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were > relentless. > > This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks > to the Seattle Central Community College. If you were alive, > the police gassed you. People coming back from work, kids, > women, everyone. People would go out of their houses to see > what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a > cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a > Texaco gas station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, > believe it or not - they were like vandals. They gassed a > bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The driver, the > riders, the people just abandoned it . > > I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim > did not spell this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were > shooting "rubber" bullets at the glass. I picked up a dozen > of the things in a few square feet. They were also shooting > this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. > They would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting > them. > > Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local > people got mad too and they joined the 100 who had been > herded out of the city. So soon there were 500 including the > neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. Because > they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff > does a number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then > people set up barricades at Seattle Central Community > College. The cops organized themselves for about an hour and > then moved in and gassed that area. > > Today they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - > the Greeks call him the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - > was coming. Weeping crocodile tears about how he just LOVES > peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be two years > old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. > This whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign > policy, not some action decided by some bureaucrat in > Seattle. This was the State Department. They wanted to > discredit the people. > > When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of > solidarity involving people from different walks of life. > Monday it got even bigger. Tuesday there was a big sort of > carnival where people were doing different things, a band > was playing music and people were blocking the World Trade > Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas. > > The thing that drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the > protesters had succeeded in making nonviolent human chains > and had therefore stopped everyone from going into the World > Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegates got through, mostly US > and British. There were what seemed like tens of thousands > of protesters involved. So the police did their gassing > number against these nonviolent people to break up the human > chains and make the protesters look violent. > > Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together > by the Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and > had a rally then marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they > got there the cops started gassing them. There was an old > lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy something. > This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but > she couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a > building entryway. She was gasping, terrified. She had been > in Germany, and it was like she was having flashbacks. The > tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were helicopters > overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything. > > They had clearly made a decision to destroy this movement. > > So anyway there I was with her in this building and she > wanted to go to the hospital but there was tear gas > everywhere and I was afraid if I tried to move her she'd be > gassed again. I went to this line of cops and begged - I > mean begged - these riot police to help her. They ignored > me. A girl told me later that a one year old had been > gassed. And I myself saw a girl no more than 18 - a cop had > busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding - and then they > gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling > on the ground crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, > Hail Mary, Hail Mary. Over and over. She was in a state of > shock. They just gassed these people who were sitting down > non-violently and doing nothing. Nothing. > > At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using > rubber bullets. Miraculously, by then I had ten in my > pocket. I could open a little market, sell the things. They > are everywhere. I and other people started giving them to > delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're > shooting "rubber" bullets and lying about it." We showed > them to the media. I guess enough people and the media got > the information because the Mayor made a new statement then > that they were using them. As if he hadn't known. > > They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face > of a guy next to me, broke all his front teeth. When that > happened I lost it. I forgot I was supposed to be getting > the news for all of you and I started yelling at the cops, > "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So > this cop aimed his gun right at me. That was his answer. So > I first put my hands in front of my face because I didn't > want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to hell with it. > I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", > you know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the > bombing in Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, > shoot! Here! Here's the target!" He didn't shoot me. > > I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent > people. They were the most non-violent people I have ever > seen. Even when I was screaming at the cop, this girl came > up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is non-violent." > These people were too much to believe. They must meditate > all the time, I don't know. > > Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is > baloney. Today (Wed.) the protesters were causing absolutely > no "trouble". In downtown the cops had people running who > weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just people > going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The > busses weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to > catch one with a driver who could still see. I begged him to > drive the old lady home - the driver changed his route > especially for her. If you want to find human decency, stay > away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. > They have some. The Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now > he wouldn't know human decency if it came up and bit him. > > So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who > run this country, and they are quite simply scum. There were > people at work, people with babies, they were all getting > gassed because the government would not allow an assembly of > people speaking their minds. It is the same as what happened > in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government > created the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he > says he supports nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber > bullets? And today they outlawed gas masks. They want to > make sure everyone gets his money's worth. > > Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the > residential neighborhoods. People in cafés were getting > gassed and shot at, you could hear it on the windows, bang, > bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street to go to his > house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at > the cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then > this other guys was just crossing the street to go home so > the cops figured, might as well gas him too. People got > gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffeee > shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or > something. > > Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I > mean after all, it's just collateral damage.. > > *** > > Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade > Organization, click on SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW > WORLD ORDER or go to > http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm > > If you would like to browse articles from > Emperors-Clothes.com, click here Or go to: > http://www.emperors-clothes.com > > ============================================================================ > Delivered-To: moderator for renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org > Delivered-To: moderator for cj@cyberjournal.org > From: intrprtr@prodigy.net > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 18:24:42 -0800 > To: (Recipient list suppressed) > Subject: FW: Hell In Seattle > > {FROM AN OLD-TIME RESIDENT OF THE GREATER SEATTLE AREA: > Thoughts On Witnessing Three Days Of Hell In Seattle} > > -----Forwarded Message----- > > [recipient's name deleted] > > As you, no doubt, are fully aware, I am no friend of anarchy > and civil disorder -- far from it, in fact; but, in the > course of the last several days, even I have had no choice > but to conclude that our local "authorities" clearly > overstepped their bounds. > > The police brutality exhibited by some of our local "boys in > black" (and I purposely say some, since not all of them were > involved ) in Seattle -- especially on Tuesday and Wednesday > -- was (shades of Lenin's "Che-Ka"!!) horrifying, to say the > least. (One of the motive forces that seemingly drives some > such men to become "peace officers" is an inherent sense of > sadism!) > > The last such occasion that springs to mind occurred on the > University of Washington campus (back in 1970, if I recall > the year correctly), when one of my girlfriends was > returning to her dormitory from the U.W.'s undergrad > ("Suzallo") library and was attacked by Seattle's "riot > police," who cracked her skull for "walking on campus." > (Well, how else was she to get back to her dorm from the > library -- fly?!?) > > This week, old people and babies were pepper-sprayed and > gassed indiscriminately; people totally uninvolved in the > protests against the WTO, many of whom were simply trying to > get home from work, were beaten, kicked, and shot with > so-called "rubber" bullets -- you name it... (One man was > kicked in the groin and shot at close range.) > > Many people with legitimate concerns in downtown Seattle > were gratuitously pepper-sprayed by the police, simply > because they happened to be present as the police went by. > (Policemen would turn and shoot streams of pepper-spray into > their faces -- this, after having passed by them, in the > first place!) Even several WTO delegates were pushed around > by the police, believe it or not! > > Those individuals who attempted to assist the fallen were > themselves subjected to police brutality; police "batons" > come raining down on both the people who had collapsed and > on those trying to help them get up. Meanwhile, the police > deliberately pressed their heavy boots down upon the heads > of those on the ground (who were being handcuffed with the > particularly cruel "flexi-cuffs" under the pretext that they > were "resisting"), in order to prevent them from being able > to "move on," as they were being "ordered" by the police > (who then proceeded to gas, pepper-spray and shoot them at > close range with "rubber" bullets in clear cases of > deliberate and unwarranted cruelty). In one case, a woman > fell to the ground and the police then began to shoot > pepper-spray at her and at a person who was attempting to > help her get up! (Media video also showed the police > harassing a just-gassed older woman who was merely trying to > unlock her car so that she could get away from these horrors > and get home!) > > Clouds of tear gas were sent flying into business > establishments, and the people inside were then attacked by > the police as they tried to get out (it having become a > "crime" in Seattle to possess, buy or wear a gas-mask if one > is a civilian). This was all witnessed by [my fiancee] and > myself, watching day-long TV coverage of the events from the > safety of our home. Had we been caught in the "crossfire" of > gas and pepper-spray, we might well have died, under those > circumstances, as you are fully aware, due to our severe > cases of asthma and chemical-sensitivity -- especially, > without gas-masks! > > What is especially disconcerting is that the police were > attacking peaceful protestors, while the anarchistic and > criminal elements were allowed free rein -- almost as if by > collusion with "the powers that be"!? > > So this week, [name deleted], has provided us with a > foretaste of what the "New World Order" holds in store for > us, if it is ever allowed to come fully into its own! The > Gestapo and the "Che-Ka" were merely the "blossoms" -- will > we live to see the "berries"? God knows! > > -- Yura > > ======================================================================== > cj@cyberjournal.org - a political discussion forum > crafted in Ireland by rkm - (Richard K. Moore) > To subscribe, send any message to cj-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org - an activists forum > To subscribe, send any message to: > renaissance-network-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > A public service of "Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance" > cdr@cyberjournal.org http://cyberjournal.org > > **-- Non-commercial reposting is encouraged, > but please include the sig up through this paragraph > and retain any internal credits and copyright notices. > Copyrighted materials are posted under "fair-use". > > To see the index of the list archives, send a blank message to: > cj-index@cyberjournal.org or to: > renaissance-network-index@cyberjournal.org > > To sample the book-in-progress, "Globalization and the > Revolutionary Imperative", see: > http://cyberjournal.org/cdr/gri/gri.html > > Help create the Movement for a Democratic Renaissance! > > A community will evolve only when > the people control their means of communication. > -- Frantz Fanon > > Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful > committed citizens can change the world, > indeed it's the only thing that ever has. > - Margaret Mead > > . > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cj-unsubscribe@cyberjournal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: cj-help@cyberjournal.org > > "Do not be discouraged. As your motivation grows more and more vast, > your > capacity for positive qualities will expand too. If you maintain the > constant wish to benefit others, the power to actually do so will come > by > itself, as naturally as water runs downhill" > --Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche > > _________ > The Hunger Site webpage (donate food daily without cost to you to help > end > world starvation): http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 16:07:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27397 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05149 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:37:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.mail.iamworld.net (smtp1-out.mail.iamworld.net [204.91.241.116]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05128 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc014 (1Cust8.tnt5.tco2.da.uu.net [63.21.91.8]) by smtp1.mail.iamworld.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA07683; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:58:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991208143214.00a05870@pop.iamdigex.net> X-Sender: 10005843@pop.iamdigex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:32:14 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Suzanne DeMuth Subject: Alternative Agriculture News Dec. 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id PAA05131 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 585 Alternative Agriculture News December 1999 Henry A. Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture 9200 Edmonston Road, #117 Greenbelt, MD 20770 Voice (301) 441-8777, Fax (301-220-0164 E-mail hawiaa@access.digex.net Web site www.hawiaa.org * * * If You Are Interested in Sustainable Agriculture. . . In addition to this monthly newsletter, the Henry A. Wallace Institute for Alternative Agriculture publishes the "American Journal of Alternative Agriculture" (AJAA), a quarterly, peer-reviewed journal of research on alternative agriculture. It is a scientific forum for disseminating technical, economic, and social research findings about the character and requirements of sustainable agricultural systems. The development of more effective conservation farming systems through participatory on-farm research is examined in the first article of the new issue of AJAA (Volume 14, No. 3). Other articles cover supplementation of mid-gestation swine grazing alfalfa; crop-yield and economic comparisons of organic, low-input, and conventional farming systems in California's Sacramento Valley; comparison of organic and conventional dairy farms in Ontario; global land resources and population-supporting capacity; and organic farming in Austria. For U.S. subscribers, one volume (four issues) costs US$44 for libraries, US$24 for individuals, and US$12 for students; foreign rates are also available. For more information, contact the Wallace Institute, 9200 Edmonston Road, #117, Greenbelt, MD 20770; (301) 441- 8777; e-mail hawiaa@access.digex.net. TABLE OF CONTENTS International Organic Certification Groups Sign Agreement, p. 1 Farm Groups Warn Members About Planting Engineered Crops, p. 2 Can Farmers Survive the "New Agriculture"?, p. 3 Positions, p. 3 Trade Group Adopts American Organic Standards, p. 3 Biotech Companies Launch PR Campaign, p. 4 EPA Reports on Progress of Food Quality Protection Act, p. 4 Resources, p. 4 Upcoming Events, p. 4 INTERNATIONAL ORGANIC CERTIFICATION GROUPS SIGN AGREEMENT Fourteen of the world's most recognized and reputable organic certification organizations last month signed a multilateral agreement that will allow certified organic products to "flow easily worldwide," according to the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements, which has accredited all 14 organizations. By using IFOAM as a third party and agreeing upon mutual certification procedures, each certification organization can accept the work of another organization, knowing that certification of all stages and ingredients has been properly performed. "With this new multilateral recognition agreement, consumers can rest assured that all the ingredients in a product certified by an IFOAM-accredited body meet the same high standard, no matter where in the world the certification was carried out," said Linda Bullard, IFOAM President. "With the IFOAM seal soon to be seen on products, that assurance will have a visual identification." The 14 organizations are AIAB (Italy), Argencert (Argentina), Bioagricoop (Italy), Bio- Gro (New Zealand), Bolicert (Bolivia), California Certified Organic Farmers (USA), Farm Verified Organic (USA), Instituto Biodinamico (Brazil), KRAV (Sweden), National Association for Sustainable Agriculture Australia, Naturland-Verband (Germany), Oregon Tilth (USA), Organic Growers and Buyers Association (USA), and Soil Association Certification Ltd. (United Kingdom). FARM GROUPS WARN MEMBERS ABOUT PLANTING ENGINEERED CROPS More than 30 farm groups held a teleconference last month to warn their members "about the dangers of planting genetically engineered crops, saying the practice had become so unpopular with consumers that farmers were risking their livelihoods if they cultivated them again this year," according to The Washington Post (November 24, 1999). The groups, which included the National Family Farm Coalition and the American Corn Growers Association, also warned that "inadequate testing of gene-altered seeds could make farmers vulnerable to ‘massive liability' from damage caused by genetic drift--the spreading of biologically modified pollens-- and other environmental effects." "The farmers called on chemical companies engaged in bioengineering to promote the sale of traditional seed varieties for the coming crop year until an independent assessment of the environmental, health and economic impacts of gene–altered seeds is available," the article said. The groups, which represent tens of thousands of producers, said that their main concern was the marketability of foods with genetically engineered ingredients. Many of the groups represented "have been active in the fight to preserve family farming and curtail the growth of corporate agribusinesses." According to a story in The Wall Street Journal (November 19, 1999), "As farmers this month place their orders for spring planting, there is growing evidence that a boom is fading. . . . Many farmers remain fans of the seeds and don't share consumers' anxiety over the safety of genetically modified crops. But they can't afford to ignore those concerns." Sales of genetically modified seeds had jumped to $1 billion by last spring, and "some biotechnology executives foresaw a leap next spring to $2 billion. None do now." The question now most on farmers' minds, the article said, is: "At harvest time next year, will a strong market exist for genetically modified crops?" "Some local seed dealers expect sales of their bioengineered varieties to drop 20% or more," according to the article. "The retreat is so big that seed executives are worried about a possible shortage of conventional, unmodified seed." CAN FARMERS SURVIVE THE "NEW AGRICULTURE"? The "new agriculture," which includes genetically modified seeds and increasing control by large agricultural corporations, is threatening independent farmers, according to The New York Times (November 28, 1999). Net farm income has fallen more than 38 percent since 1997, according to the USDA; farmers are producing more food on fewer acres in less time, putting independents in peril. "A growing number of economists, regulators and lawmakers are worried about the shifting balance of power that favors a handful of agricultural giants over a shrinking number of independent farmers, confused and bedeviled by all the changes," the article continued. "Farms have grown bigger and bigger, swallowing many small operations, and huge agricultural business conglomerates have emerged. In the last two years, however, mergers in the agricultural industry have resulted in such huge companies that the nation's largest farm groups are warning that the dwindling competition among suppliers will doom the family farm." Federal officials, though, are taking notice: "The Agriculture and Justice Departments say they are looking into whether the agriculture market is too heavily concentrated, and therefore anti-competitive." Farmers are also worried about "whether to plant seeds that have been bio-engineered to ward off pests," now that bioengineering faces growing opposition. "Farmers who have been planting genetically modified seeds, meanwhile, have begun wondering whether they are worth the trouble," according to the article. "Because some modified foods have not been approved for export and may be unwelcome in Europe and even at home, many farmers say they may cut back their acreage." POSITIONS University of Vermont, Environmental Program and Department of Community Development and Applied Economics, seeks a tenure-track Assistant Professor; the Environmental Program also seeks a tenure-track Assistant Professor; contact Ian A. Worley, Interim Director, Environmental Program, 153 South Prospect St., University of Vermont, Burlington, VT 05405; iworley@zoo.uvm.edu. University of Georgia, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, seeks an Assistant Dean for Research, and Assistant Director for Georgia Agricultural Experiment Stations; information is on the Internet at www.uga.edu/caes/news/jobs/asstdean.html. TRADE GROUP ADOPTS AMERICAN ORGANIC STANDARDS The Organic Trade Association has adopted American Organic Standards as guidelines for the organic industry. The standards are "an alternative set of organic standards that would set a baseboard for organic certification in the U.S." as the industry awaits USDA's next round of proposed national organic standards, according to Organic View, a publication of the Organic Consumers Association. OTA has had industry guidelines since 1988, and developed the new standards with its Certifiers Council and Quality Assurance Committee, to "build consensus in preparation for the anticipated release of federal organic regulations." OTA's standards "offer an alternative if the USDA's next proposed rules are not up to current strong standards," Organic View wrote. "The AOS standards could be implemented immediately, an important advantage given the USDA's glacial pace at developing national standards." The standards are available on the Internet at www.ota.com. BIOTECH COMPANIES LAUNCH PR CAMPAIGN Some of the world's biggest biotechnology companies are "mounting a huge lobbying and marketing campaign to counter their critics and combat what they call a rising wave of anti- biotech hysteria," according to The New York Times (November 12, 1999). "Some biotech executives now say that there is a sense that the tide may be turning against genetically modified foods and that urgent action is needed. And so in recent months, the Monsanto Company, DuPont, Novartis A.G., and other biotech companies have formed a series of industrywide alliances and have set aside tens of millions of dollars to fight what they view as an ugly campaign that has vilified the companies . . . and misrepresented their products." The companies are financing research and educational forums, and lobbying legislators, regulators, and farmers, according to the article. "If farmers turn against them, the big biotechnology companies could face huge losses," it said. EPA REPORTS ON PROGRESS OF FOOD QUALITY PROTECTION ACT EPA has published a report on its progress in implementing the Food Quality Protection Act of 1996, detailing EPA actions to eliminate or reduce the use of pesticides on foods commonly eaten by children, and register new, safer pesticides. Chapter titles in the report include The Basics; Lowering the Risks; Ensuring the Safety of Existing Pesticides; Public Participation and Transparency; Special Protection for Vulnerable Populations; On the Forefront of Sound Science; and Partners and Other Stakeholders. Copies of "Implementing the Food Quality Protection Act: Progress Report" are available on the Internet at www.epa.gov/oppfead1/fqpa/fqpareport.pdf, or from (703) 305-5017. RESOURCES "Expanding the Organic Food and Agriculture System in the U.S.'s Upper Midwest: Strategies and Lessons of a Pilot Project" is $10 from South Dakota State University, Economics Department, Brookings, SD 57005-0895; (605) 688-4141. "Sustainable Agriculture: Definitions and Terms," a special reference brief, is available from the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center, National Agricultural Library Rm. 304, 10301 Baltimore Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705-2351; (301) 504-6422; afsic@nal.usda.gov. "Codex Alimentarius," the FAO/WHO international organic standards, are available on the Internet at www.fao.org/es/esn/codex. "Fair Agricultural Chemical Taxes" is $10 from Friends of the Earth, 1025 Vermont Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20005; (202) 783-7400; a summary is on the Internet at www.foe.org. "Put Your Ideas to the Test: How to Conduct Research on Your Farm or Ranch" is available on the Internet at www.sare.org/san/htdocs/pubs/ or from Valerie Berton, SARE Communications Specialist, (301) 405-3186. UPCOMING EVENTS December 31 is the deadline for applications for the Sustainable Agriculture Delegation to Cuba, February 20-29, 2000; for application, call Institute for Food and Development Policy, 398 60th St., Oakland, CA 94608; (510) 654-4400; or download it from the Internet at www.foodfirst.org/progs/global/cuba. January 12-15, 2000, National No-Till Conference will be held in Des Moines, IA; contact No-Till Farmer, P.O. Box 624, Brookfield, WI 53008; 1-800-645-8455; info@lesspub.com. January 14-16, 2000, 3-Day Advanced Organic Vegetable Farming Workshop will be held in Saratoga Springs, NY; contact Regional Farm & Food Project, 148 Central Ave., 2nd Floor, Albany, NY 12206; (518) 427-6537. January 19-22, 2000, "Growing Roles for the New Millennium" will be held in Portland, OR; contact National Alliance of Independent Crop Consultants, 1055 Petersburg Cove, Collierville, TN 38017; (901) 861-0511; JonesNAICC@aol.com. January 20-22, 2000, Southern SARE Professional Development Program's Annual Workshop will be held on Jekyll Island, GA; contact Roseanne Minarovic, (919) 515-3252; rminarovic@unity.ncsu.edu. January 21-23, 2000, 9th Annual Southern Sustainable Agriculture Working Group Conference and Trade Show will be held on Jekyll Island, GA; contact Jean Mills, Southern SAWG, 14430 Jackson Trace Rd., Coker, AL 35452. January 22, 2000, "Charting Our Course," the Maryland Tributary Team Annual Meeting, will be held in Baltimore, MD; contact registration at (410) 260-8708, dwalker@dnr.state/md.us; on the Internet, www.dnr.state.md.us/Bay/. January 22, February 26, March 18, and April 29, 2000, "Branding Your Beliefs," a four- part course, will be held in Albany/Cobleskill, NY; contact Ariel McCarthy, Regional Farm & Food Project, (518) 427-6537; farmandfood@fsinter.net. January 31, 2000, Farmers' Market Federation of New York will hold a training seminar in Rochester, NY; contact Dianne Eggert, Farmers' Market Federation, (315) 656-9977. January 31-February 2, 2000, "Marketing in the New Millennium," the New York State Farmers' Direct Marketing Conference, will be held in Rochester, NY; contact Dianne Eggert, N.Y. State Farmers' Direct Marketing Association, (315) 656-9977. February 11, 2000, "Livestock Conference 2000--A New Era," sponsored by the Western Prairie Resource Conservation and Development Area, will be held in Colby, KS; contact C. Duane Cheney, Western Prairie RC&D, (785) 462-2602. March 27-29, 2000, "Soil, Food and People: A Biointensive Model for the New Century," co-sponsored by the Wallace Institute, will be held in Davis, CA; contact the University of California, Davis, Extension, 1-800-752-0881; on the Internet, www.universityextension.ucdavis.edu/biointensive. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 18:15:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00245 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14229 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:47:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14210 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23523 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.66] (pm3shep2-163-66.intrepid.net [209.190.163.66]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04094 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:46:58 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:49:49 -0400 To: World Sustainable Agriculture Association From: Allan Balliett Subject: Pictures of Carrarino walking tractor Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 586 I hesitate to post what seems could seem like a crass commercial message to this newsgroup, but knowing how many small-scale growers are looking for a two-wheeled tractor that a host of implements have been manufactured for, I wanted to point out to everyone that that Eugene Canales of Ferrari Tractor is carrying a line of mulifunctional walking tractors. You can see pictures of these tractors at http://www.approtecag.com/twowheel.html . You can find out about other appropriate agricultural technology Eugene has imported to the states at http://www.approtecag . (The "spader clinic" is at that site somewhere, also.) I admit that I've got a conflict of interest here. Eugene has given me great phone support for implements that I bought used from other sources. He has also spoken twice at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference that I host. All that aside, if I didn't think that everyone would benefit by knowing about his efforts to support small-scale growers, I wouldn't be posting this information here. I hope this is helpful. -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 8 20:39:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03013 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12048 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:17:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12033 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (279.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.138.93]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA07336 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:18:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912090118.TAA07336@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" riots & misinformation in Seattle Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:18:33 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 587 The "missinformation in Seattle" part of the subject line may very well have described the contents of the rant from the supposed reporter who was covering the WTO conference and riots and made his/her very unprofessional report forwarded by Lawrence. While I have no doubt that the police in that city did not do a good job of responsible crowd control (lousy in fact), I find it pretty far fetched to think that it was a vast government conspiracy and that the rioters were just "misunderstood," or used as pawns. I suspect that all that eyewitness stuff was mostly or all B.S. Of course I view everything extraordinary that is passed for fact on the internet with a heavy dose of salt. What I do believe is that the vast majority of the people that were there to protest the WTO were there for peaceful demonstrations, exercising their rights of free speech and assembly, and with legitimate suspicions concerning the supposed benefits of the WTO. Then there were probably some zealtot types that were there to forment revolution, which played in well for the local criminal types who just wanted a good excuse to heist a TV. Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 04:16:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07887 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 04:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27726 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 03:45:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (smtp.ncc-mannheim.net [62.104.117.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA27610 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 03:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [212.120.33.245] (may be forged)) by smtp.ncc-mannheim.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28120; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:45:39 +0100 Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (lufa.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.3.254]) by www.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03524; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:42:00 +0100 Received: from LUFA/SpoolDir by lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (Mercury 1.44); 9 Dec 99 09:33:31 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUFA (Mercury 1.44); 9 Dec 99 09:33:15 +0100 From: "Klaus Wiegand" Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:33:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Protected Germplasm Royalties, etc. Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <3AB2666F41@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 588 hello loren, >I am guessing that what Klaus was lamenting is the system in effect in >Europe. Klaus, fell free to correct me if I guessed wrong! yes, you are perfectly right. that's what i think i wrote: "wrong for europe" if winston churchill or even william the conquerer would have given a bag of grain as a reward to one of me ancestors and i would multiply and grow it today (provided it still would be viable), wooshh, the breeders fund would come along and cash me year after year for growing grain from the 10th century. a small exception for that: farmers, who do not grow more than 3 ha -~12 acres-, are excluded from that like from a lot of other things. and another, larger one: if you can proof, that you already have bought more than between 60 and 100% of your annual seed requirements, you get a reduction from the fee on a year-to- year basis. but being a farmer is a PROFESSION and not a hobby, and you can't make a living from 3 ha. i can't get rid of the impression, that this exception was not implemented for the sake of "mini farmers". the relation (time-expense for control:money gain) just would be too high for the fund. that raises the question: who maintains (meaning: pays) for the public seed collections and seed banks and who is the only one, who can draw any possible advantage out of them ?????? (except for a new communist revolution with radical expropriation certainly not the taxpayer) klaus To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 08:15:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11661 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA19115 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:49:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19111 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from markbert ([208.141.36.112]) by mail.iatp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with SMTP id 297; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:57:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991209064921.00aea710@mail.iatp.org> X-Sender: mritchie@mail.iatp.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 06:49:21 -0600 To: "mikerichardson" , "sanet" From: "Mark Ritchie" Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" riots & misinformation in Seattle In-Reply-To: <199912090118.TAA07336@mail.multipro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 589 For those of us who were there it was very, very shocking. It was, I believe, a classic police riot. Mark Ritchie, President Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy 2105 First Ave. South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404 USA 612-870-3400 (phone) 612-870-4846 (fax) cell phone 612-385-7921 mritchie@iatp.org www.iatp.org See the WTO in Action at: http://www.wtowatch.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:08:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14935 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13490; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:08:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from torrex2.theitgroup.com (proxy120.itcrp.com [207.247.16.120] (may be forged)) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08337 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:40:03 -0600 (CST) Received: by torrex2.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:39:36 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE4944A6@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Need USA farming numbers Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:39:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 590 Greetings. I read an article in a national news magazine last night that is begging for a letter-to-the-editor. The article evaluated the Freedom to Farm act and associated legislation. The slant was that Americans need cheap food more than the rural landscape needs viable farms. I have seen many statistical comparisons between things like: USA per capita food budget vs. the rest of the world, Farm gate prices 1900 vs. today adjusted for inflation, % of retail food dollar going to farmer vs. going to processors, Estimates of the 'real' cost of food production including all resources and waste, How much of the food produced (or imported) is wasted post-harvest vs. consumed in the USA. Can anyone help me locate some references like these? I know numbers can lie. I would simply like to point out to the magazine editor that keeping supermarket prices in the basement isn't necessarily the best thing for the economy or for the health of the nation. I could also use some hints on how to address producer subsidies and their role in regulating commodity prices. Thanks a bunch. Have a great day. -Ralph From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 10:15:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15267 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA09899 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:40:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from torrex2.theitgroup.com (proxy120.itcrp.com [207.247.16.120] (may be forged)) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09827 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by torrex2.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:39:36 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE4944A6@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Need USA farming numbers Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:39:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 591 Greetings. I read an article in a national news magazine last night that is begging for a letter-to-the-editor. The article evaluated the Freedom to Farm act and associated legislation. The slant was that Americans need cheap food more than the rural landscape needs viable farms. I have seen many statistical comparisons between things like: USA per capita food budget vs. the rest of the world, Farm gate prices 1900 vs. today adjusted for inflation, % of retail food dollar going to farmer vs. going to processors, Estimates of the 'real' cost of food production including all resources and waste, How much of the food produced (or imported) is wasted post-harvest vs. consumed in the USA. Can anyone help me locate some references like these? I know numbers can lie. I would simply like to point out to the magazine editor that keeping supermarket prices in the basement isn't necessarily the best thing for the economy or for the health of the nation. I could also use some hints on how to address producer subsidies and their role in regulating commodity prices. Thanks a bunch. Have a great day. -Ralph To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 13:24:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21360 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27545 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27510 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:39:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20548 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:39:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18871 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:39:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:39:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" riots & misinformation in Seattle In-Reply-To: <199912090118.TAA07336@mail.multipro.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 592 On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, mikerichardson wrote: > The "missinformation in Seattle" part of the subject line may very well > have described the contents of the rant from the supposed reporter who was > covering the WTO conference and riots and made his/her very unprofessional > report forwarded by Lawrence. While I have no doubt that the police in My apologies for posting this to sanet. If I had read it more carefully I would have noticed its flakiness. I thought it brought out a few important points that, to me, seemed to have escaped the media. Other than an occasional ag or permaculture article of value that is my last crosspost to this list. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 9 20:33:32 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01742 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21759 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:14:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21716 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA21584; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:58:51 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id JAA12451; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:35:07 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912100135.JAA12451@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 10 Dec 99 08:20:26 Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" riots & misinformation in Seattle To: mikerichardson@multipro.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 593 >The "missinformation in Seattle" part of the subject line may very well >have described the contents of the rant from the supposed reporter who was >covering the WTO conference and riots and made his/her very unprofessional >report forwarded by Lawrence. While I have no doubt that the police in >that city did not do a good job of responsible crowd control (lousy in >fact), I find it pretty far fetched to think that it was a vast government >conspiracy and that the rioters were just "misunderstood," or used as >pawns. I suspect that all that eyewitness stuff was mostly or all B.S. In fact, I'd like to thank Lawrence for that cross-post. I thought it was an interesting eye-witness account. It was clear that there was no pretension it was a "professional" report. There are statements I'd disagree with, and maybe even some factual mistakes, but that's what eyewitness accounts often are. What I'd consider misplaced is Son of Richard's expressing suspicion that the report "was mostly or all B.S.", without a shred of evidence or explanation why he suspected so. I do agree with the writer that if you gas people, they will get upset and if you do it several times, they'll probably get mad and fight back. The last time people didn't fight back after repeated gassing, we got a holocaust. Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 9 20:37:53 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01864 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA24383 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:23:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from svn.net (IDENT:root@svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24328 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (pm3-112.svn.net [167.160.201.112]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA12917; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:11:11 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: Subject: FDA GMO hearing alert Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:14:31 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 594 A Beyond Organic Newsflash!! * * * LAST WEEK SEATTLE ...THIS WEEK OAKLAND Attend the largest rally against genetically engineered (GE) foods in the U.S. to date! This Monday in Oakland, the FDA is holding a public meeting to get feedback on their policies related to GE foods. Let the FDA know that the American public demands GE foods be thoroughly tested and labeled before they reach supermarket shelves. Currently, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires no pre-market testing or labeling of genetically engineered food. Corporations developing GE foods are merely encouraged to consult with the FDA if they think there may be any health related risks. Yet every day, whether we know it or not, most of us eat foods containing genetically engineered ingredients. The rally will include speakers, street theatre and more!!!! When: Monday, December 13, 1999 * Hearings start at 9:00 am * Rally starts at 12:00 noon Where: Oakland Federal Office Building, 1301 Clay St @ 13th St. Oakland, CA. (Oakland City Ctr/12th St. Bart Station) What to Bring: Banners, signs, friends, costumes and information We need volunteers to help us spread the word by passing out leaflets, making phone calls and helping us to organize the day of the event. To get involved now please call Simon Harris at (415) 981-6205 x 324 or by email: simon@organicconsumers.org Organized by: Bay RAGE, Berkeley Food Policy Council, Center for Ethics and Toxics (CETOS), Center for Food Safety, Food and Farming Forum, Food First/Institute for Food and Development Policy, Global Exchange, Greenpeace, International Forum on Food and Agriculture, Marin County Food Policy Council, Mothers and Others for a Livable Planet, Organic Consumers Association, Pesticide Action Network, U.S. PIRG ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 22:53:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06005 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA04018 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03997 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05197 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16021 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:29:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:29:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" riots & misinformation in Seattle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 595 This _is_ the last Xpost from me. Due to interest in this topic I decided to post this bit of feedback just to round out the picture; I thought it was especially well written and voices strong support for small independent farming enterprises, particularly CSA's. <> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:33:15 -0700 From: Will Newman II Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: WTO Response by authoritiesSEATTLE I find the response to the actions of the police at the WTO saddening. I lived in Berkeley in the 60s. The actions taken by the police in Seattle are typical. Not extraordinary, not even unusual - typical, common, everyday actions in virtually every police force in this country. Everyday. What is unusual is that they were taken in front of cameras and against middle-class citizens. The victims are usually marginalized people: the poor, the homeless, the unemployed. It is sad, but what I find saddest of all is that most of us are so unaware of day-to-day activity by our local police that we find these actions suprising. The nature of police forces is to use force against selected victims. That's why we call them police forces, not the police assistance society. They serve those in power, who desire to suppress challenges to that power. The police were used to suppress labor organizers in the early decades of this century (anti-american anarchists!), they were used to supress the populist movement of the 40's and 50's (populist=communist, right?), they were used to supress the free speech movement (ah, those damned commies again!), they were used to supress the the civil rights movement (now it's those fag commies!), they were used to suppress agitation against the Viet Nam war (sorry, Viet Nam police action - we never actually declared war), they are used to create and carry out the war on drugs (but only in inner cities, though most illigal drugs are used in suburbs). But remember that they are us. We are all in this together. The police think they are doing the right thing. We need to rehabilitate those of us who are police (just like we need to rehabilitate those of us who farm with chemicals.) We rehabilitate police by rebuilding community, by localizing economies and by empowing individuals. My part of the effort to re-knot community is a CSA farm. We all do the best we can. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:45:02 -0700 From: Will Newman II Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Off subject? To all who question whether WTO action is appropriate for this list: If you do not see the implications of the WTO for CSA let me state this - the logicl and inevitable conclusion of the WTO is the end of regulation of corporations, the end of viable seed and seed saving, the end of organics, the end of small scale farming and the end of what little free market we have. This may have a minor effect on CSAs Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org <> <> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 9 23:28:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07323 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24247 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:03:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1403.mail.yahoo.com (web1403.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.167]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24238 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6996 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 1999 20:10:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19991209201005.6995.qmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.24.168] by web1403.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 09 Dec 1999 12:10:05 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:10:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: U.S. FEMA Online Y2K Course: Getting Ready for Y2K To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 596 December 9, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President & Executive Director, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net FEMA ONLINE Y2K COURSE FOR LOCAL AND STATE EMERGENCY MANAGERS PROVIDES EXCELLENT REFERENCE FOR UNDERSTANDING THE YEAR 2000 TECHNOLOGY PROBLEM Is your community prepared for Y2K? FEMA's popular Y2K course for local and state emergency managers, Getting Ready for Y2K, can now be completed online. The course's goal is to provide the emergency management community with information and tools that will allow them to prepare for the Year 2000 conversion. The course consists of five lessons: 1. Understanding the Y2K Challenge 2. Assessing Y2K Readiness 3. Developing Y2K Contingency Plans 4. Promoting Y2K Public Awareness 5. Exercising Y2K Plans Also included in the course are a toolkit that contains actual documents to be used in Y2K preparedness activities, links to other Y2K resources, and a glossary of terms. The FEMA Y2K Course is accessible on the Humanitarian Resource Institute Community & Family Preparedness WebSite: http://www.humanitarian.net/prepare.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 01:29:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12090 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03601 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:08:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-t.missouri.edu [128.206.2.27]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03523 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from missouri.edu ([128.206.61.172]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA1755172; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:01:33 -0600 Message-ID: <385096A0.569EC37F@missouri.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 23:58:57 -0600 From: Mary Hendrickson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cole, Ralph" , Sustainable Agriculture Network Subject: Re: Need USA farming numbers References: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE4944A6@KNOXEX1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 597 Ralph: Let me give you a couple of sources that *may* help: "Cole, Ralph" wrote: > USA per capita food budget vs. the rest of the world, "The proportion of income spent for food varies widely by household income. For example, households with incomes of $5,000-$9,999, before taxes, spent about 34% of their after-tax income for food. Households with before-tax income of $15,000-$19,999 spent 21% of their after-tax income for food. Households with incomes of $30,000-$39,999 spent 15% of after-tax income for food. The average for all houesholds was 14.1%. This figure, based on the consumer survey data, is higher than the estimates using total food expenditures adn disposal personal income." -- Food Cost Review, 1950-97 produced by ERS/USDA. "The proportion of income spent for food varies widely among households of different sizes and incomes (table 100). Data from the 1996 Consumer Expenditure Survey conducted by the U.S. Department of Labor showed that the percentage of aftertax income spent for food varied from 8.7 percent for households with incomes of $70,000 or more to 34.2 percent for households with incomes of $5,000-$9,999." (From Food Consumption, Prices and Expenditures 1970-97. USDA/ERS Stat. Bulletin #965) When you consider that median household income is something around $46,000 (help me out here), then lots of households are paying a high percentage of their income for food. Again, who gets to eat cheap food? > Farm gate prices 1900 vs. today adjusted for inflation, The first report quoted above says that in 1929, 23.9% of disposal income was spent for food. From the ERS/USDA stats: 1952 the retail price of food (using 1982-84 as 100) was 34 and in 1997 160. Farm value in 1952 was 44 and in 1997 106. Farm to retail price spread in 1952 was 28 and in 1997 189. Farm value share of retail price (in percentage terms) was 47% in 1952 and 23% in 1997. Of course these are not great numbers since USDA does not do a good job of separating out farm value -- live chickens processed by ConAgra count as net farm income for instance. > % of retail food dollar going to farmer vs. going to processors, Supposedly, from USDA: 21% goes to fam value, 38.5% to labor, 8.5% to packaging, 4% to transportation, 3.5% to energy, 3.5% to profits, 4% to advertising, 3.5% to depreciation, 4% to rent, 2.5% to interest, 1.5% to repairs, 3.5% to business taxes and 2% to oter costs -- out of $1 spent on food in 1997 in the US. Farm value is greatest in meats and least in grains. Again, same problem as stated above, how do you separate out what goes back to firms like ConAgra for their live birds from actual value going to what many on this list would consider farmers? Notice those numbers never separate out a statistic for processing? Just for grins: After-tax profits as a percentage of stockhold equity for food manufacturers in 1980 was 14.7 and 24.2 for 1997 (3rd quarter). For retail food chains it was 13.7 in 1980 and 20.7 in 1997 (4th quarter). For farmers? > Estimates of the 'real' cost of food production including all resources and > waste, > How much of the food produced (or imported) is wasted post-harvest vs. > consumed in the USA. If you ask, people at NASS will help you out on these statistics. You can access stuff at: http://www.usda.gov/nass/ Also, the reports I quoted are on line at: http://www.econ.ag.gov/epubs/pdf/aer780/ and http://www.econ.ag.gov/epubs/pdf/sb965/ Also just go to http://www.econ.ag.gov/Prodsrvs/research.htm for lots of information -- but it's really important to know how they arrived at their numbers. Good luck, Mary -- Mary Hendrickson, Ph.D. Network Coordinator Food Circles Networking Project University of Missouri Outreach and Extension Department of Rural Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 Tele: 573-882-7463 Fax: 573-882-1473 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 11:41:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24676 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08299 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08239; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (root@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18561; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24946; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (nadamson@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24942; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:03:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac2.wam.umd.edu: nadamson owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:03:35 -0500 (EST) From: Nancy Lee Adamson To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu cc: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1469 In-Reply-To: <199912072053.PAA06729@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 598 > Shepherd Ogden will also be speaking in the Eastern Panhandle of West > Virginia on Wednesday, Dec 16 at the National Conservation Training Center. > His topic will be 'Running a Seed Company.' For more information on this > free event, contact Mark Madison at mark_madison@fws.gov or > http://www.nctc.fws.gov/history/communitylectures.html The National Conservation Training Center is in Shepherdstown, WV, roughly 1 1/2 hours from Washington, DC (2 at the most). To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 11:58:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25077 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20998 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:36:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20950 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:33:07 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.166] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A996907D020E; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:25:58 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:23:20 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: More Monsanto, etc. Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 599 Forwarded from Natural Food Merchandiser (online): ========== Monsanto Co. helped pay for a demonstration in favor of genetically modified organisms in Washington, D.C., according to a published report. About 100 members of a Baptist church got a check from the biotech giant, an organizer of the protest said. Scientists say they've found a way to genetically alter young hogs so they grow much faster and larger than normal swine, as reported nationally this week. Less noticed was a report about a new hog-production system that promises tastier pork, less damage to the environment and the potential for greater profits among independent farmers. That system would eschew modern factory farms. =========== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 12:32:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25927 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04422 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:07:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04414 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ001FCBC3E0@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:02:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:02:28 -0800 From: Misha Subject: A request for help To: SANET-mg Cc: ali@emirates.net.ae Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 600 Howdy, all-- We didn't grow much Chinese Jujube in Wisconsin, so I don't have a lot of information for this person who sent the query. I don't know much more than what TAMU has here: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/fruit/jujube/jujube.html If anyone could help Ali, I'd add my gratitude. Please respond to Ali, not to me. peace mish >Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 06:13:50 +0400 >From: MOHD ALI >Subject: INFO >To: gale-sinex@aae.wisc.edu >Reply-to: ALI@emirates.net.ae >Organization: PERSONNEL USE >X-Accept-Language: en > >HI ! NEED SOME INFO. REGARDING THE BREEDING AND VARITAL IMPROVEMENTS OF >"ZIZPHUS JUJUBA".IF U HAVE GOT ANY INFO. ABOUT THE WORD "JUJUBE" >PLEASE SEND IT TO ME ON THE E-MAIL ADDRESS (GDP16@HOTMAIL.COM) OR >FUNGAS16@EMIRATES.NET.AE >I'LL BE VERY THANK FUL TO U.....THANX > BYE > ALI + To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 13:14:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27324 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24643 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:46:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24635 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:53:57 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.166] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id ACF9FE75002C; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:48:41 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:46:03 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Farm-gate prices, 1844 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 601 Stepping back to the December, 1844 issue of American Agriculturalist (still publishing), we find the following prices. I have expressed them in 1999 dollars, as determined by adjusting for the ratio between the 1845 Consumer Price Index ( 7.4 ) and that for 1999 ( 166 ). Barley 13.44/bu Beans, white .56/lb Butter 3.36/lb Cattle (live) 123./cwt Cheese 1.12/lb Clover seed 1.57/lb Corn 11.87/bu Cotton 1.34/lb Flax 30.24/bu Hay 188.00/ton Milk 11.20/cwt Oats 7.84/bu Rye 15.23/bu Sugar 1.57/lb Wheat 22.18/bu Whisky 1.08/ 750 mL An editorial comment ( discussing the newly developed McCormick reaper ) in the August, 1844 edition is very telling: "So long as crops come in so abundantly, we must expect the prices of produce to rule low; it behooves the agriculturalist, therefore, to avail himself of all possible improvements in culture and harvesting. He will thus be enabled to successfully compete with the foreigner and supply distant nations cheaper than any other country can do. If prices fall, we must endeavor to grow our products at less cost." This was *long* before any sort of "cheap food policy." Think about that for awhile. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 13:30:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27615 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28247 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:59:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28242 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserf.net (unverified [10.0.0.101]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:06:57 -0600 Message-ID: Received: from bluestem [204.77.126.166] by webserf.net (SMTPD32-4.03) id A0027E3F009E; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:01:38 CDT From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:59:00 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Farm consolidation, 1844 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 602 What we see today is not new. It comes and goes. >From the American Agriculturalist, December, 1844 ... "What then, is the present condition of sugar culture? All in Georgia have given it up and returned to rice or cotton. If the Louisianans have not yet done so, it is because their establishments were on a large and costly scale. Their lands cost them at least [ $2250 (1999) ] an acre. A moderate plantation, with its fixtures, but without negroes, would have been thought cheap in the spring of 1825 at [ $2.25 million (1999) ]. On these lands sugar was planted as the entire crop. There was neither wheat, nor corn, nor even oats, for the planter's land had --- with better prices for sugar --- cost him too much to be so employed." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 14:24:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29102 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23950 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:56:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umailsrv2.umd.edu (umailsrv2.umd.edu [128.8.10.76]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23902 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from umail.umd.edu (hjpatt-75.umd.edu [128.8.84.75]) by umailsrv2.umd.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA22790 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:56:46 -0500 Message-ID: <38515A0B.32720975@umail.umd.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:52:43 -0600 From: "Raymond R. Weil" Organization: University of Maryland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Progressive Farmer Magazine Honors Rodale! References: <199910070746.DAA20480@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F46ED9B318CD3AE9E336731" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 603 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4F46ED9B318CD3AE9E336731 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have access to a copy (or their web site www.progressivefarmer.com), check out the latest issue of Progressive Farmer (a main stream farm mag). I contains about a dozen biographical sketches of "leaders of Agriculture" in the 20th century. Believe it or not they included (p 22.) J.I. and Robert Rodale! The essay acknowledges J.I. was "50 years ahead of his time" Ray Weil --------------4F46ED9B318CD3AE9E336731 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="rw17.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Raymond R. Weil Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rw17.vcf" begin:vcard n:Weil;Ray R. tel;fax:301 314 9041 tel;work:301 405 1314 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/faculty/weil.htm org:University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 version:2.1 email;internet:rw17@umail.umd.edu title:Professor of Soil Science note:http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/faculty/weil.htm http://www.prenhall.com/books/ect_0138524440.html adr;quoted-printable:;;Dept. of Natural Resource Sciences & L.A.=0D=0A1103b H.J. Patterson Hall;College Park;Maryland;20742;USA x-mozilla-cpt:;992 fn:Ray R. Weil end:vcard --------------4F46ED9B318CD3AE9E336731-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 16:03:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01319 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13210 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:33:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13188 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ007UHKARNY@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:16:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:08:07 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: Food Fight, The Nation, 12/27/99 To: SANET-mg Cc: iffs@nal.usda.gov, terrain@ecologycenter.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 Howdy, all-- Thought you might be interested in this piece, in the current issue of /The Nation/ by John Stauber, executive director of the Center for Media and Democracy, publisher of the /PR Watch/ journal. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >(This article is available at: www.thenation.com) > December 27, 1999 > > Food Fight Comes to America > > by JOHN STAUBER > >As the international uprising against genetically engineered (GE) >foods continues to grow, the worst fear of US government and business >officials is that the commotion abroad will awaken Americans, who unknowingly >already consume biotech foods being rejected in Europe. The victories of >their foreign counterparts, meanwhile, are providing fresh >inspiration for US food >activists, some of whom have struggled for decades to win media coverage, >citizen attention and regulatory action. The Food and Drug Administration >has officially opposed biotech food labeling and mandatory safety >testing since >1992 [see Kristi Coale, facing page]. But now that Europeans are forcing >American companies to segregate and label genetically engineered foods, it is >much more difficult to claim that the same can't be done in the United States. > >Last summer was a watershed event for many US farmers, who planted >Monsanto's biotech corn and soybeans, only to find them rejected >abroad. Some are shifting back to traditional varieties, at least until the >crisis is resolved. Gary Goldberg, CEO of the American Corn Growers >Association, suggested in November that farmers avoid genetically >engineered seed corn and try to obtain non-engineered varieties >before farmer demand depletes supplies of old-fashioned seed. > >The US food and biotechnology industries are now in full "crisis >management" mode, their PR experts and lobbyists working furiously to prevent >the same kind of defeat suffered on foreign shores. One example is the >recently launched Alliance for Better Foods, run from the DC office >of the PR/lobby firm BSMG, which also represents Monsanto and Philip >Morris, America's largest food company. Monsanto's PR firm >Burson-Marsteller recently bused 100 members of a Washington, DC, >Baptist church to stage a pro-GE-foods rally outside an FDA hearing. >But if events in Europe are any guide, the momentum may have shifted >to a new alliance of grassroots environmentalists, consumer >activists and family farmers. The Los Angeles Times noted in October >that "a storm of protest...has reached US shores, leading some >experts to predict that agricultural biotechnology could go the way >of nuclear energy--falling out of favor because of public fears and >unfavorable economics." > >The key to any successful biotech "issue management" campaign is >repeating simple but carefully chosen messages that can set the terms of the >debate. This was true with Monsanto's genetically engineered bovine growth >hormone (rBGH), administered to cows to increase milk output. In the case of >rBGH, one message was that "the milk is the same." This isn't true, and >changes in the milk are a reason the drug hasn't been approved by >Europe or Canada. But the message worked here, where, after a >furious PR and lobbying >campaign, the FDA approved the use of rBGH and allowed sales of >dairy products without consumer labeling. Six years later, Monsanto >claims that one-third of US cows are in herds injected daily with >rBGH. > >Another simple but effective PR tactic, known as "the third-party >technique," puts messages in the mouths of independent-seeming >experts, such as scientists and doctors, whom journalists and the >public are more likely to >trust. Besides government "watchdogs" at the FDA and the US Department of >Agriculture (USDA), such messengers can include former Surgeon General C. >Everett Koop, the AMA and its prestigious publication Journal of the >American Medical Association, and the American Dietetic Association. All >these and more have vouched for rBGH, and we can expect an avalanche of >similar trusted experts reassuring us about biotech foods in the months >ahead. > >Meanwhile, many right-wing pro-industry groups have launched their >own PR campaigns against the "fearmongering" of consumer and environmental >activists. At Thanksgiving, for example, the National Center for >Public Policy Research faxed to newsrooms a release headlined Activists Attack >Bio-Engineered Food Despite Benefits to the Poor and the Sick. All >these tactics would fail, of course, if the media did their job by thoroughly >investigating and reporting the issue of genetically engineered >foods, and that is why media management is the number-one goal of >every PR campaign. > >As its ultimate weapon, industry has successfully lobbied into law >"agricultural product disparagement" statutes that give them new powers to sue >people who criticize their products. The first such lawsuit was filed in Texas >against Oprah Winfrey and her guest Howard Lyman for the crime of >airing a public debate on mad cow disease and its risks in the >United States. A jury ruled in Oprah's favor, prompting her to crow >that "free speech rocks." The reality >is that her case is on appeal, and she has spent more than $2 million thus far >in legal bills that she will never get back. Food-disparagement >statutes survive >intact in Texas and twelve other states, and this shot across the >bow of the media has already had a chilling impact on coverage of >other food controversies. > >One of the smartest moves by Monsanto in the rBGH fight was hiring >Carol Tucker Foreman, an influential and well-connected Democratic insider >and lobbyist. Previously, Foreman had been the executive director of the >DC-based Consumer Federation of America and then, under President Jimmy >Carter, an Assistant Secretary of Agriculture. Soon after her stint >at USDA she >launched her own DC lobby firm with many corporate clients. While paid by >Monsanto to lobby for rBGH, Foreman also coordinated the Safe Food Coalition, >whose members include a number of big Washington-based nonprofits such as >Consumer Federation of America and the Center for Science in the >Public Interest. Running the coalition allowed Foreman to maintain dual >identities as both a consumer advocate and a corporate food >lobbyist. Earlier this >year Foreman left her lobby firm and returned to the Consumer Federation >of America, where she now says she favors labeling genetically >engineered foods. > >Another major Washington food lobbyist is Michael Jacobson, the >executive director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, an >advocacy group dubbed "the food police" by industry for its >attention-getting news conferences against unhealthy fats and sugars >in the American diet. When it comes to biotech foods, however, CSPI >has been less vigilant, failing to oppose >Monsanto's rBGH during the long struggle over its approval. Jacobson now frets >that mandatory labeling of genetically engineered food sold in >supermarkets, as called for in a bill introduced in November by >Representative Dennis Kucinich, could kill a goose he hopes will lay >genetically engineered golden eggs such as "increased yields, >reduced toxins, increased nutrient levels, and modified fatty acid >composition." > >If inside-the-Beltway groups like CSPI and CFA are conflicted and >unlikely to lead the charge to gain mandatory safety testing and consumer >labeling of GE foods, who is? A broad array of seasoned activists >has been fighting this battle for a long time, among them author >Jeremy Rifkin, attorneys with the Center for Food Safety, the Rural >Advancement Foundation International-USA, the National Family Farm >Coalition, the Council for Responsible Genetics, Consumers Union >(publisher of Consumer Reports) and the Union of Concerned >Scientists. In meetings this year a number of these >organizations and others formed the Genetic Engineering Action >Network, which is united around four objectives: mandatory safety >testing of GE foods, mandatory consumer labeling if they pass safety >tests, long-term industry liability to cover unforeseen problems and >an end to the domination of food and agriculture by "supermarket to >the world" companies. > >No one involved in the US fight expects it to be quick or easy. Says >Ronnie Cummins of the Organic Consumers Association, "We have to do what >Europe and Japan have done--build a powerful organized movement of farmers, >consumers and environmental activists who will target and boycott >companies." Recently the FDA held three public hearings on genetically >engineered foods. Critics call them staged events and dog-and-pony >shows, but they have provided a media forum for advocates of safety >testing and labeling. >The activists want biotech foods off the market entirely until a >rigorous system of health and ecological testing has been devised. Like their >colleagues in Europe, they are promoting the Precautionary >Principle--the common-sense maxim of "looking before you leap"--as >the basis for public policy. Adherence to the Precautionary >Principle would obviously have dire consequences for companies whose >bottom-line profits depend on selling as many biotech foods as >quickly as possible, but it seems a minimal level of protection >against the inevitable unforeseen consequences of genetically >engineering the world's food supply. >-------------- > >John Stauber is executive director of the Center for Media & >Democracy and founder of PR Watch, a quarterly journal that investigates >corporate and government propaganda (www.prwatch.org). He is >co-author of Toxic Sludge Is Good For You! and Mad Cow USA, both >published by Common >Courage. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 16:17:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01629 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22667 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:48:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22604 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [144.92.244.229] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA162942 (8.9.1/50); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:48:31 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991210144659.00c852c4@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:46:59 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, citnet-list@citnet.org, ecomda@danenet.wicip.org From: "Michelle M. Miller" Subject: PR Watch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 605 FYI -- m3 --------------------------------------------------------- BIOTECH FOOD FIGHT ERUPTS IN AMERICA Madison, WI: The new issue of PR Watch examines the massive industry and government public relations campaign underway to prevent safety testing and consumer labeling of genetically engineered (GE) foods in the United States. PR Watch (Volume 6, Number 4) is available online at Investigative journalist Karen Charman reveals in PR Watch how the US food industry, reeling from European rejection of genetically engineered foods such as Monsanto's bovine growth hormone (rBGH) and biotech corn and soybeans, wants to prevent the commotion abroad from awakening US consumers already ingesting GE foods. Last summer tens of millions of acres in the US were planted with genetically engineered crops that were unknowingly consumed by most Americans since the US government does not require safety testing or supermarket labeling. PR Watch editor John Stauber has authored a related article in the December 27th issue of The Nation magazine titled "Food Fight Comes to America." It is available online at . Stauber writes in The Nation: "The US food and biotechnology industries are now in full "crisis management" mode, their PR experts and lobbyists working furiously to prevent the same kind of defeat suffered on foreign shores. One example is the recently launched Alliance for Better Foods, run from the DC office of the PR/lobby firm BSMG Worldwide, which also represents Monsanto and Philip Morris, America's largest food company. Monsanto's PR firm Burson-Marsteller recently bused 100 members of a Washington, DC, Baptist church to stage a pro-GE-foods rally outside an FDA hearing." PR Watch is a quarterly publication of the non-profit Center for Media & Democracy in Madison, Wisconsin. The Center investigates and reports on government and industry propaganda campaigns. To read and download the articles mentioned visit and For more information contact: John Stauber, executive director, Center for Media and Democracy phone: 608-260-9713 email: stauber@compuserve.com online: www.prwatch.org Michelle Miller Pesticide Use and Risk Reduction Project Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems University of Wisconsin - Madison U.S. Mail: 146 Agriculture Hall 608.262.7135 Campus: 1535 Observatory Drive 608.262.5200 Madison, WI 53706 fax 265.3020 www.wisc.edu/cias/ mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 10 16:37:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01984 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01204 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:59:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01191 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-84.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.84]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:58:38 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:55:50 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3622.991210@acnet.net> To: ali@emirates.net.ae, GDP16@hotmail.com, FUNGAS16@EMIRATES.NET.A CC: SANET-mg Subject: Re: A request for help In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 606 Hi Ali, Friday, December 10, 1999, 10:02:28 AM, Misha wrote: M> We didn't grow much Chinese Jujube in Wisconsin, so I don't have a M> lot of information for this person who sent the query. >>HI ! NEED SOME INFO. REGARDING THE BREEDING AND VARITAL IMPROVEMENTS OF >>"ZIZPHUS JUJUBA".IF U HAVE GOT ANY INFO. ABOUT THE WORD "JUJUBE" >>PLEASE SEND IT TO ME ON THE E-MAIL ADDRESS (GDP16@HOTMAIL.COM) OR >>FUNGAS16@EMIRATES.NET.AE >>I'LL BE VERY THANK FUL TO U.....THANX >> BYE >> ALI There is more information available from the California Rare Fruit Growers, at: http://www.crfg.org/ You can also email them. Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 11 10:35:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13701 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15496 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15445 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13469 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28601 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:13:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:13:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 607 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:07 EST From: SCook21809@aol.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org To: osalt@teleport.com Subject: Re: Off subject? Yes Will, CSAs will be affected by WTO. If you ask any Biologist monitoring life on the planet they will tell you we are entering a period of "mass extinction". Loss of habitat and degradation of the environment is quickly decreasing the diversity of life forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there won't be any question about if you will have a cancer diagnosis. Rather, will you notice your cancers in time for treatment? Add to this the genesis of an Evil Empire euphemistically called free trade and boy do we have a problem. Does racing for the cure give us time to observe the causes and take action to prevent them? Does fighting an unsustainable system give us resources to create a sustainable alternative? I believe we need to focus on filling the glass the rest of the way rather than grapple with the gross exteriors of who is responsible for partially emptying it. We all deny culpability. On closer inspection of the hand I use to point a finger at someone else I always find three fingers pointing back at me. "We have met the enemy...and he is us." I need to learn to save seed better. I need to teach more people about composting and growing more food on less land. I need to find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. Most of all I need to learn to interact and cooperate with my neighbors toward common goals. How do I want to spend the rest of my life? Because now is the only promise I have. Focus! Art Biggert To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 11 17:50:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17451 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03075 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:27:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03065 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD17.mco.net [209.167.186.37]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22652; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:27:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385270E9.D35CC059@real.on.ca> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:42:33 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Stephen M. Apatow" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: U.S. FEMA Online Y2K Course: Getting Ready for Y2K References: <19991209201005.6995.qmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 608 For heaven's sake, it is December 11, 1999. A little late for promoting a "Getting ready for Y2K" course, don't you think? We can divide up people's minds into three groups. One, is those with such an unfettered faith in technology that Y2K problems simply cannot happen. Two, those who want the status quo to be royally shaken up. And three, those who are simply disconnected from the real news of the disruptions we shall face next year. Groups one and two, filter whatever news they receive for their own psychological comfort. Group three is simply a product of our times. What will happen will happen, regardless of our comfort slant or ignorance. Gary Elliott "Stephen M. Apatow" wrote: > December 9, 1999 > > Contact: Stephen M. Apatow > President & Executive Director, > Humanitarian Resource Institute > Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 > Western USA: (775) 884-4680 > Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net > Email: sma@humanitarian.net > > FEMA ONLINE Y2K COURSE FOR LOCAL AND STATE EMERGENCY > MANAGERS PROVIDES EXCELLENT REFERENCE FOR > UNDERSTANDING THE YEAR 2000 TECHNOLOGY PROBLEM > > Is your community prepared for Y2K? > > FEMA's popular Y2K course for local and state > emergency managers, Getting Ready for Y2K, can now be > completed online. The course's goal is to provide the > emergency management community with information and > tools that will allow them to prepare for the Year > 2000 conversion. > > The course consists of five lessons: > > 1. Understanding the Y2K Challenge > 2. Assessing Y2K Readiness > 3. Developing Y2K Contingency Plans > 4. Promoting Y2K Public Awareness > 5. Exercising Y2K Plans > > Also included in the course are a toolkit that > contains actual documents to be used in Y2K > preparedness activities, links to other Y2K resources, > and a glossary of terms. > > The FEMA Y2K Course is accessible on the Humanitarian > Resource Institute Community & Family Preparedness > WebSite: http://www.humanitarian.net/prepare.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 11 19:43:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18093 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10700 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:18:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10695 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:18:42 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.210]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:18:43 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991211181902.007d0d50@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:19:02 -0600 To: Subject: Mini-Soilsaver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 609 Has anybody used parts of old farm equipment to build a minature multitool unit like a Soil Saver but only smaller? I was thinking I could use parts from a trailer disk, chisel plow and spike harrow to make a bad imitation of a Soil Saver/Finisher (without the subsoiler shanks) but scaled to use on a few acres with a small HP tractor. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 09:43:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22377 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29776 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:18:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29769 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:18:16 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.145]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:18:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991212081821.007d0d50@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:18:21 -0600 To: Subject: Biodiesel/Capicum question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 Biodiesel A caller yesterday on NPR's Car Talk program mention that they were running their diesel equipment on biodiesel which they make from vegetable oil. This idea seems like it might help me with one of my personal goals which has been to close the carbon cycle (as much as possible) around my energy use. Obviouly, we must close both the nurtient cycle and the energy cycle in order to claim progress towards a truly sustainable agriculture. And in the long run, we have no choice but to close those cycles. As the Biosphere in the Arizona desert showed, it is very expensive and the technology is not well enough understood allow us to escape own pollution by building Bucky Fuller domes over our cities. It is also doubtful we will be able to terraform Mars in time and beside, "them there Martian ABM's keep shooting down our spacecraft" or is it the old engineering axiom Pick two, but only two Good, Fast or Cheap that is operative in this case ;>) ? A search of the net found several sites with instructions for cracking and purifying vegetable oils like soybean, rapeseed etc into a suitable diesel fuel. There was even an html on a portable biodiesel processor built as a college senior project. Has anybody played with this and would they be willing to share their experiences? Capicum question. Does anybody know if you can cross, maybe by bagging etc, a jalapeno, C. annuum and a habanerno, C. baccatum peppers? I've got a rather large fruited jalapeno, probably jalapeno/green pepper cross, that I would like to make into a hair-sweating hot pepper like the habanero. Thanks for any info you all may have or be able to direct me to. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 10:37:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22643 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00585 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:12:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from rrc2.rrcnet.org ([209.105.74.131]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00521 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from bataphil (com223.rrcnet.org [209.32.211.223]) by rrc2.rrcnet.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06003; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:10:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Phil & Deb Batalden" To: , Subject: Re: Mini-Soilsaver Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:06:25 -0600 Message-ID: <01bf44b2$75760700$dfd320d1@bataphil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 611 A neighbor of ours has a four "shank" subsoiler made from bottoms taken off an old plow, and fastened to a squre tube and mounted on his three point hitch that works good. The moldboards are removed and a subsoiler point is used inplace of it , coulters could probably be added to help go thru more residue. phil To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 17:04:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26813 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00552 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:38:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00515 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ofrf8.tychonet.com (ofrf8.tychonet.com [205.179.36.8]) by scruz.net (8.8.5/1.34) with SMTP id NAA09820 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ofrf.org) Message-Id: <4.1.19991212133815.00b99ad0@mail.scruznet.com> X-Sender: mark2@mail.scruznet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:38:47 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Lipson Subject: FDA testimony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_260956455==_.ALT" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 612 --=====================_260956455==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by scruz.net id NAA09820 =93SYSTEM FAILURE: ABORT AND RETRY.=94 O.F.R.F. CALLS FOR OVERHAUL OF THE U.S. REGULATORY SYSTEM FOR BIOENGINEER= ED FOODS Testimony of Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director Organic Farming Research Foundation PO Box 440, Santa Cruz CA 95061 831-426-6606; mark@ofrf.org, www.ofrf.org Food and Drug Administration, Public Hearing on =93Biotechnology in the Y= ear 2000 and Beyond=94 Oakland CA, =20 December 13, 1999 [Federal Register Docket# 99N-4282] The Organic Farming Research Foundation is a producer-directed organizati= on dedicated to the improvement and adoption of organic farming methods. As analysts of U.S. policy for food and agricultural issues, we appreciate t= he opportunity to comment on FDA=92s policies and performance regarding =93bioengineered foods.=94 We are not categorically opposed to every use of =93bioengineering=94 in agriculture, but OFRF believes that the federal government has fundamenta= lly failed to provide an adequate regulatory regime for transgenic technologi= es and products. In particular, the division of responsibilities among FDA, EPA= and USDA ensures that there is no comprehensive, public interest oversight governing the release of transgenic organisms into the environment and th= e food supply. The environmental, agricultural, food safety and food security i= ssues cannot be considered in isolation from each other, and sound public polic= y cannot be formulated or implemented in such a fragmented system. =20 Furthermore, under the existing regulatory framework there is no definite= point of accountability for the consequences of this regulatory failure. There= is nobody ultimately in charge except the biotechnology industry itself. Th= e Administration should immediately begin the process of forging a new, comprehensive regulatory process, with extensive participation from consu= mers, farmers and the public interest community. Unless and until a new regula= tory system is in place, a moratorium on all transgenic food and agricultural applications should be imposed. Regarding the six specific issues posed by FDA in its Federal Register no= tice for this meeting, we have the following comments.=20 =93Scientific/Safety Issues:=94 1. [Has FDA's consultation process achieved its intended purpose? Based o= n experience to date, should this regulatory approach ``sunset,'' continue = in its current state, be made mandatory, or otherwise be revised?] FDA=92s so-ca= lled =93consultation process=94 has failed to assure public safety and it has = helped to undermine confidence in the products of U.S. agriculture. The process sh= ould be scrapped immediately and reformulated in the context of a new, unified regulatory system. 2. [What newly emerging scientific information related to the safety of f= oods derived from bioengineered plants is there, if any? Are there specific te= sts which, if conducted on such foods, would provide increased assurance of s= afety for man or animals consuming these foods?] There is substantial new information related to the safety of =93bioengin= eered=94 foods, as well as old information that the agency has apparently ignored.= New information includes emerging knowledge of the massive and ubiquitous eff= ects from transgenic plants in the agricultural environment and livestock physiology. These effects may indeed have important implications for foo= d safety and they have not been recognized by any U.S. regulatory agency.=20 Mandatory pre-market safety testing must be based on the actual transgeni= c product, as used in the real world and as consumed by real people and ani= mals.=20 In addition to the requirement for real-world pre-market testing, there m= ust be much more rigorous controls on the transparency and objectivity of the te= sting that is done. 3. [What types of food products derived from bioengineered plants are pla= nned for the future? Will these foods raise food safety issues that would requ= ire different approaches to safety testing and agency oversight? If so, what = are those approaches?]=20 The powerful and uncertain qualities of current and planned transgenic fo= od =93events=94 demand a complete overhaul of the governmental approach to s= afety testing and agency oversight, as we have stated. =20 =93Public Information Issues:=94 1. [Should FDA's policy requiring labeling for significant changes, inclu= ding changes in nutrients or the introduction of allergens, be maintained or modified? Should FDA maintain or revise its policy that the name of the n= ew food be changed when the common or usual name for the traditional counter= part no longer applies? Have these policies regarding the labeling of these fo= ods served the public?]=20 FDA=92s labeling policy has failed to serve the public interest. The fai= lure to require labeling is imposing unacceptable costs and risks on the farmers = and manufacturers who do not wish to have anything to do with transgenic food= s. We are bearing the demand of consumers to know what is in their food. The p= ublic has a right to require labeling of transgenic content in their foods, and= the government must implement this in a way that unequivocally places the cos= ts and liabilities on the patent-holders and their licensees. 2. [Should additional information be made available to the public about = foods derived from bioengineered plants? If so, what information? Who should be responsible for communicating such information?] All data and background information related to safety, efficacy, use and = fate in the environment of transgenic food products and ingredients must be pr= ovided by the product developers and made available to the public. In addition,= FDA must go out of its way to document and explain all information about the regulatory actions of the agency, including conflict-of-interest recusals= by the numerous FDA personnel who have worked in the biotechnology sector. 3. [How should additional information be made available to the public: e.= g., on the Internet, through food information phone lines, on food labels, or by= other means?]=20 FDA should use every means at its disposal to distribute information to t= he public, and it must also make a much stronger effort to include the publi= c in its decision-making. Above all it must heed what it is hearing from cons= umers and contribute to overhauling the entire regulatory system for =93bioengi= neered=94 foods. =20 # # # Organic Farming Research Foundation Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director ph: 831-426-4006 or -6606; fax: 831-426-6670 PO Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061 --=====================_260956455==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by scruz.net id NAA09820
=93SYSTEM FAILURE: ABORT AND RETRY.=94
O.F.R.F. CALLS FOR OVERHAUL OF THE U.S. REGULATORY SYSTEM FOR BIOENGINEERED FOODS

Testimony of Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director
Organic Farming Research Foundation
PO Box 440, Santa Cruz CA 95061
831-426-6606; mark@ofrf.org, www.ofrf.org


Food and Drug Administration, Public Hearing on =93Biotechnolo= gy in the Year 2000 and Beyond=94
Oakland CA, 
December 13, 1999
[Federal Register Docket# 99N-4282]

The Organic Farming Research Foundation is a producer-directed organization dedicated to the improvement and adoption of organic farming methods.  As analysts of U.S. policy for food and agricultural issues, we appreciate the opportunity to comment on FDA=92s policies and performance regarding =93bioengineered foods.=94

We are not categorically opposed to every use of =93bioengineering=94 in agriculture, but OFRF believes that the federal government has fundamentally failed to provide an adequate regulatory regime for transgenic technologies and products.  In particular, the division of responsibilities among FDA, EPA and USDA ensures that there is no comprehensive, public interest oversight governing the release of transgenic organisms into the environment and the food supply.  The environmental, agricultural, food safety and food security issues cannot be considered in isolation from each other, and sound public policy cannot be formulated or implemented in such a fragmented system. 

Furthermore, under the existing regulatory framework there is no definite point of accountability for the consequences of this regulatory failure.  There is nobody ultimately in charge except the biotechnology industry itself.  The Administration should immediately begin the process of forging a new, comprehensive regulatory process, with extensive participation from consumers, farmers and the public interest community.  Unless and until a new regulatory system is in place, a moratorium on all transgenic food and agricultural applications should be imposed.

Regarding the six specific issues posed by FDA in its Federal Register notice for this meeting, we have the following comments.

=93Scientific/Safety Issues:=94
1. [Has FDA's consultation process achieved its intended purpose? Based on experience to date, should this regulatory approach ``sunset,'' continue in its current state, be made mandatory, or otherwise be revised?] FDA=92s so-called =93consultation process=94 has fai= led to assure public safety and it has helped to undermine confidence in the products of U.S. agriculture.  The process should be scrapped immediately and reformulated in the context of a new, unified regulatory system.

2. [What newly emerging scientific information related to the safety of foods derived from bioengineered plants is there, if any? Are there specific tests which, if conducted on such foods, would provide increased assurance of safety for man or animals consuming these foods?]
There is substantial new information related to the safety of =93bioengineered=94 foods, as well as old information that the agency has apparently ignored.  New information includes emerging knowledge of the massive and ubiquitous effects from transgenic plants in the agricultural environment and livestock physiology.  These effects may indeed have important implications for food safety and they have not been recognized by any U.S. regulatory agency.  Mandatory pre-market safety testing must be based on the actual transgenic product, as used in the real world and as consumed by real people and animals.  In addition to the requirement for real-world pre-market testing, there must be much more rigorous controls on the transparency and objectivity of the testing that is done.

3. [What types of food products derived from bioengineered plants are planned for the future? Will these foods raise food safety issues that would require different approaches to safety testing and agency oversight? If so, what are those approaches?]
The powerful and uncertain qualities of current and planned transgenic food =93events=94 demand a complete overhaul of the government= al approach to safety testing and agency oversight, as we have stated. 

=93Public Information Issues:=94
1. [Should FDA's policy requiring labeling for significant changes, including changes in nutrients or the introduction of allergens, be maintained or modified? Should FDA maintain or revise its policy that the name of the new food be changed when the common or usual name for the traditional counterpart no longer applies? Have these policies regarding the labeling of these foods served the public?]
FDA=92s labeling policy has failed to serve the public interest. = ; The failure to require labeling is imposing unacceptable costs and risks on the farmers and manufacturers who do not wish to have anything to do with transgenic foods.  We are bearing the demand of consumers to know what is in their food.  The public has a right to require labeling of transgenic content in their foods, and the government must implement this in a way that unequivocally places the costs and liabilities on the patent-holders and their licensees.

2.  [Should additional information be made available to the public about foods derived from bioengineered plants? If so, what information? Who should be responsible for communicating such information?]
All data and background information related to safety, efficacy, use and fate in the environment of transgenic food products and ingredients must be provided by the product developers and made available to the public.  In addition, FDA must go out of its way to document and explain all information about the regulatory actions of the agency, including conflict-of-interest recusals by the numerous FDA personnel who have worked in the biotechnology sector.

3. [How should additional information be made available to the public: e.g., on the Internet, through food information phone lines, on food labels, or by other means?]
FDA should use every means at its disposal to distribute information to the public, and it must also make a much stronger effort to include the public in its decision-making.  Above all it must heed what it is hearing from consumers and contribute to overhauling the entire regulatory system for =93bioengineered=94 foods.
 
#  #  #




Organic Farming Research Foundation
Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director
ph: 831-426-4006 or -6606; fax: 831-426-6670
PO Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061
--=====================_260956455==_.ALT-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 17:33:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27302 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17552 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17532 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26794; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01678; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:02:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:02:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: mmiller@pcsia.com cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Mini-Soilsaver In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991211181902.007d0d50@pcsia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 613 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > Has anybody used parts of old farm equipment to build a minature multitool > unit like a Soil Saver but only smaller? I was thinking I could use parts > from a trailer disk, chisel plow and spike harrow to make a bad imitation > of a Soil Saver/Finisher (without the subsoiler shanks) but scaled to use > on a few acres with a small HP tractor. Mike Miller Use a chisel plow sized to the HP of your tractor then add a row of coulter blades in front for turf cutting and you'll have it. Should produce nearly the same results as the SS. The SS uses shanks similar to those on the chisel plow, not subsoiler shanks, as far as I know. This should be easy to weld/bolt together. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 22:23:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29677 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19204 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:56:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1404.mail.yahoo.com (web1404.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.168]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA19043 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3647 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 1999 02:56:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19991213025606.3646.qmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.61.207] by web1404.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:56:06 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:56:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: U.S. Federal Reserve Prepares for Economic Transition To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 614 December 11, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President & Executive Director, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net FEDERAL RESERVE ENGINEERS THE BIGGEST EXPANSION OF MONEY SUPPLY IN THE FED'S HISTORY IN THE WEEKS LEADING UP TO THE END OF THE YEAR, WHEN THE SO-CALLED Y2K COMPUTER BUG COULD DISRUPT FINANCIAL SYSTEMS Reuters: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991211/bs/stocksweek_leadall_1.html International Monitoring-Global Financial System at Risk: http://www.intl-monitoring.com/gfs.htm Y2K RELATED ECONOMIC TRANSITION AND INCREASED NEED FOR HUMAN SERVICES, EMERGENCY FOOD & SHELTER How will families across the United States cope with Y2K related economic challenges into 2001? Will breakdowns in the international trade arena and global supply chain effect the operational capacity of U.S. corporations? Will they lead to increased employment related problems ? The Focus On America National Community Needs Database is being constructed for every county within each of the 50 states in America. This database will provide frontline service programs with a one stop communication pathway for theirunmet needs and organizational contacts. The main objective is to provide local interfaith, youth and service organizations with tools to impact the highest priority needs as described by the executive directors of programs in their community. Programs including food banks, homeless shelters, crisis centers, substance abuse and disaster relief programs are being asked submit information for the National Community Needs Database. Visit the Focus On America National Community Needs Database on the web at: http://www.humanitarian.net/usdatabase FEMA Act Now Preparedness Update: Hunger in the United States Increases in 1998 by Stephen M. Apatow http://www.emforum.org/vlibrary/actnow10.htm FEMA Emergency Food and Shelter Program, see http://www.fema.gov/pte/efs.htm INTERNATIONAL DISASTER INFORMATION NETWORK: A ONE STOP RESOURCE FOR DISASTER/RELIEF BASED INFORMATION CENTERS Humanitarian Resource Institute is constructing an International Disaster Information Network to provide access to Internet based disaster information around the globe. To date, the network provides links to thousands of disaster/relief information centers that currently publish information via the Internet for government, international and non-governmental organizations. The objective is to establish direct relationships with governmental programs in approximately 172 countries, which will help facilitate direct requests for information, associated with preparedness, response and relief. Visit the International Disaster Information Network on the web at: http://www.humanitarian.net/idin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 12 23:41:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00409 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09512 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:18:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from thehub.knight-hub.com (thehub.knight-hub.com [205.177.16.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09497 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (dialas-226.knight-hub.com [205.252.164.226]) by thehub.knight-hub.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA23476; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:17:58 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:17:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199912130417.XAA23476@thehub.knight-hub.com> X-Sender: auburn@knight-hub.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Bill Liebhardt , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Walt and Jill Auburn Subject: Re: GMO labeling Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id XAA09499 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 At 10:37 AM 12/07/1999 -0800, Bill Liebhardt wrote: >Last Friday in the local paper there was an article about the FDA >Washington DC hearing on GMO's. In the article it stated that some of the >people who testified said that consumers would be confused by labeling and >that they did not know enough about Biotechnology to understand labeling. >One was a professor from the University of Maine. Someone representing the >Dietetics Assoc. said about the same thing. I guess they consider most >consumers as not able to make a judgement regarding these issues. It seems >that people who do market GMO products in the US do not want labels or >people to have the information they need to make an informed decision. > >I have not seen anything else on this meeting but that article. Is there >anything else on it? > >Bill Liebhardt > Bill, the following appeared in The Washington Post, sounds like the article you saw, since it's AP. I checked the Consumer Federation of America web site (www.consumerfederation.org) to see if they'd posted more about their testimony, didn't see anything. The FDA web site has a page on biotech (http://www.fda.gov/oc/biotech/default.htm), it has the transcript of the first hearing (Chicago) but not the one in DC Nov 30, but I'm guessing they'll put it up soon. Did you know the 3rd one is tomorrow (Dec 13) in Oakland (announcement doesn't say exactly where)? You could go in person! I saw part of what I think was the Chicago hearing (it was a panel discussion) on TV (some cable channel, after the fact), was impressed with the caliber of the discussion, people on the panel from NRDC & other orgs, very articulate. Jill Consumer Groups Urge Labeling of Biotech Foods Associated Press Wednesday, December 1, 1999; Page A19 Consumer groups urged federal regulators yesterday to require labeling of foods containing genetically modified ingredients and to tighten the approval process for biotech crops, but the food industry fears labels would unfairly stigmatize the products. "People are not confident with the process as it exists right now," said Carol Tucker Foreman of the Consumer Federation of America, testifying at the second of three hearings being held by the Food and Drug Administration on biotech foods. The FDA considers genetically engineered crops to be essentially identical to conventional varieties, so the food industry isn't required to submit testing data or to put special labels on biotech products. Genetically engineered foods have become controversial in Europe and Asia. In the United States, public advocacy groups and some members of Congress are pressing the Clinton administration to require labeling. Some groups want genetically engineered ingredients tested on animals and people before they are approved for sale. An estimated 57 percent of the soybeans and 30 percent of the corn planted in the United States this year was genetically engineered to resist pests or herbicides. The food industry fears that requiring labels on biotech foods would make consumers unnecessarily wary of such products. Experts on consumer behavior and nutrition testified that shoppers don't understand biotechnology well enough to interpret such labels. "They don't even have a clear understanding of traditional plant breeding, much less genetic engineering," said Mario Teisl, a University of Maine professor who has consulted with the Environmental Protection Agency on consumer labeling. "What the consumer wants to know is how does this affect me, how does it affect the environment and how does it affect my family?" he said. What is needed is a public education program to help consumers understand the technology, said Mildred Cody, a Georgia State University nutrition professor representing the American Dietetic Association. Instead of requiring labels on biotech foods, the FDA should develop standards for products that claim to be free from biotech ingredients, say food manufacturers. Any biotech-free claims "must be substantiated," said John Gray, president of the International Foodservice Distributors Association. About 100 scientists, industry representatives, farmers and private citizens testified at the hearing. The FDA's last hearing will be Dec. 13 in Oakland, Calif. © Copyright 1999 The Associated Press To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 07:44:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04265 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA28658 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:04:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28167 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-172.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.172]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13347; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:03:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101bf457b$44184b40$acf86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Bill Liebhardt" , , "Walt and Jill Auburn" References: <199912130417.XAA23476@thehub.knight-hub.com> Subject: Re: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:03:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 616 > The food industry fears that requiring labels on biotech > foods would make > consumers unnecessarily wary of such products. > > Jill wrote: Instead of requiring labels on biotech foods, the FDA > should develop > standards for products that claim to be free from biotech > ingredients, say > food manufacturers. Any biotech-free claims "must be > substantiated," said > John Gray, president of the International Foodservice > Distributors > Association. > > About 100 scientists, industry representatives, farmers > and private citizens > testified at the hearing. The FDA's last hearing will be > Dec. 13 in Oakland, > Calif. > > © Copyright 1999 The Associated Press I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. Beth To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 09:25:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06119 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28374 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28335 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:58:32 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:58:11 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:58:10 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006B@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Matthew Champagne'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: do-it-yourself breeding Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:58:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 617 Matthew, >> Sure, go ahead. You have complete freedom to do that [public >> breeding], and it is in no way impeded by private plant breeding. > Is this true? I would argue that it is precisely the tendency > of the 'privatization of life-forms' to inhibit our (sic) freedom > to do that. It seems to do this by various mechanisms, one of > which is the discursive equation (like Dale's) of life forms with > refrigerators. IMO you are making a straw-man argument here. I am not talking about patenting or PVP-ing "life-forms", just cultivars. > I think the whole hubbabaloo around the 'terminator' gene speaks > both to this tendency of privatization towards control/monopoly > and to the very real feelings of people throughout the world of > being 'impeded' by this very tendency. I suspect, as I alluded to before, that underlying this debate is the issue of control of the means of production. That is, the means of producing cultivars. It used to be that any bright, industrious person could breed competitive pigs or corn. The fact that this may no longer be the case, is threatening, just as the automobile industry is threatening if you want to build your own cars. I believe the view of agriculture as some special bastion of individuality and self-sufficiency, is based on a romantic myth, of which real farmers rarely partake. > The equation life form=refrigerator seems in part to be based on > this distinction between 'discovering' and 'making'. I think it > apparent that I would not draw the line at the same place Dale > would, but he is probably right in that it is an ethical problem > (he regards seed patenting as ethically sound). Of course, it > is for this very reason that I make the appeal to a political > process rather than an economic one for the arbitration of this line. Yes, this certainly is a political issue. But I still believe that if you were more familiar with the breeding enterprise, you too would see it as engineering rather than discovery. > Dale may be basing his distinction on a change in breeding > techniques (from selection to recombination?) which presumably > corresponds to a change in intellectual processes (more > individualized?), but I'm not so sure that's not also an > arbitrarily placed line. I think the current placement of the line is consistent with intellectual property right laws in general. But you are right about the change from selection to recombination. Protection of varieties began a long time ago, when breeding became engineering. > In the problematic of genetics we find such materialist > arguments (e.g., certain things [resources] are just *there* > for the taking) dissolving and I think we could approach the > problem more fruitfully from the perspective of information > ownership and control. Equating open use of public genetic resources with "taking" is a straw-man argument, since no exclusivity of use occurs. That is, the public resources remain a *commons* despite use. BTW, what do you mean by "materialist" in this context? > Under this perspective we can make more fruitful equations, > such as plant varieties with musical compositions within > a discussion on intellectual property rights. If our goal is > diversity (in both music and plantlife), what regime of > ownership would be more conducive to that goal? This is an excellent analogy, and copyright is analogous to PVP. There is no doubt in anyones mind, that protection of varieties (and musical scores) has led to an enormous amount of new composition. >> Why should the results of anyones work be taken and placed >> in the public domain? This is Socialism pure and simple. >> I respect that position, > nice save, but dangerously close to red-baiting Red-baiting? Fuck....I'll bait who ever I want. >> but I think it goes beyond this particular debate. > On the contrary, this *is* the debate. I guess you are right. So, we agree that the issue of Socialism (private vs public control of the means of production) is THE central issue? Good. I think that is an argument we should pursue. But I don't have time to pursue it this morning. I just got back from the ASTA, and I have a huge amount of mail to open. > ...I don't pretend that I would prefer 'everything for everybody > and nothing for me' or anything of the sort. But I do think > the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the discussion over GMO's > and the patenting of life-forms is probably the place to begin > rethinking where this somewhere is, far beyond cold-war politics. I agree. Cold-War politics are totally beside the point. Better jumping in points might be agricultural populism of the 20's and 30's, the history of agricultural collectivization, or the adequacy of Marxist analysis. Unless we hear loud cries against pursuing this thread on Sanet, let's debate (nice and slow) Socialism in the agricultural context. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 10:16:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06896 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA24762 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:57:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24680 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ddecou (pAp8.pond.net [207.149.187.8]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA10144 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:52:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991213065723.00828b60@pond.net> X-Sender: ddecou@pond.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:57:23 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Hook Family" (by way of David DeCou ) Subject: Re: GMO labeling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id JAA24692 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 618 > The food industry fears that requiring labels on biotech > foods would make > consumers unnecessarily wary of such products. > > Jill wrote: Instead of requiring labels on biotech foods, the FDA > should develop > standards for products that claim to be free from biotech > ingredients, say > food manufacturers. Any biotech-free claims "must be > substantiated," said > John Gray, president of the International Foodservice > Distributors > Association. > > About 100 scientists, industry representatives, farmers > and private citizens > testified at the hearing. The FDA's last hearing will be > Dec. 13 in Oakland, > Calif. > > © Copyright 1999 The Associated Press I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. Beth Beth- If I do not want GMO in any of my products, I am not willing to pay the bill for any testing or certifying. It certainly was not my change that caused the expense. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Dave DeCou 93780 River Road Junction City, OR 97448 (541) 998-2110 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 11:08:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07828 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12716 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:42:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12699 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:41:17 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:16:38 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:16:34 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006E@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Hook Family'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:16:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 619 Beth, > I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free > of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and > really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. Food processors are very frightened of labeling. First, it is expensive to segregate commodities. Second, it is not clear what GMO-free really means. For example, if soybean oil is made from transgenic soybeans, but contains no DNA or protein, is it GMO-free? What if a conventional load of corn contains a few kernels of GMO corn? What if you find a RR soybean in your bag of conventional rice? Also, does GMO include things developed with molecular techniques that are not transgenic (markers, mutations, duplications)? Finally, public opinion seems to be highly unstable right now. Vastly different responses to surveys occur depending on how questions are worded. So the value of GMO-free commodities is poorly defined in the market. But this will change. Probably, some entrepreneurs will begin marketing "GMO-free" foods at a premium price, taking labeling into their own hands as it were. To be reliably free (that is, totally free) of GMO might be pretty expensive. If labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will probably say: "May contain transgenic material." Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 11:53:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08809 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04496 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:36:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgate1a.bridge.com (firewall-user@mailgate1a.ext.bridge.com [167.76.159.72]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04454 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by mailgate1a.bridge.com; id KAA10000; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:34:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1srv.bridge.com(167.76.56.34) by mailgate1a.bridge.com via smap (V4.2) id xma009970; Mon, 13 Dec 99 10:34:18 -0600 Received: from eximcx2.bridge.com (eximcx2.bridge.com [167.76.56.15]) by mail1srv.bridge.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA29259 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:36:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by eximcx2.bridge.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:36:30 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Fulton, John" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:37:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 620 Dale's answer is very good. Perhaps another way of looking at the issue is comparing the wheat in your daily bread with the gasoline in your vehicle's fuel tank. Would you willingly pay, say, an extra 25 cents a gallon to learn that 18 percent came from Kuwait, 12 percent from Iraq, 9 percent from Norway, and so on and so forth, with a detailed printout of all the various hydrocarbons? Most people wouldn't pay, because they don't care. Will the vast majority of Americans willing pay extra for GM labeling? I don't know. If most people want GM-free foods, and are willing to pay presumably higher prices at GM-free supermarkets, then those stores will prosper. Otherwise, they are likely to remain niche vendors. I'd hate to mandate that everyone pay more for labeling that, at present, concerns only a minority. > -----Original Message----- > From: Wilson, Dale [SMTP:WILSONDO@phibred.com] > Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 10:16 AM > To: 'Hook Family' > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE: GMO labeling > > Beth, > > > I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free > > of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and > > really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. > > Food processors are very frightened of labeling. First, it is expensive > to > segregate commodities. Second, it is not clear what GMO-free really > means. > For example, if soybean oil is made from transgenic soybeans, but contains > no DNA or protein, is it GMO-free? What if a conventional load of corn > contains a few kernels of GMO corn? What if you find a RR soybean in your > bag of conventional rice? Also, does GMO include things developed with > molecular techniques that are not transgenic (markers, mutations, > duplications)? > > Finally, public opinion seems to be highly unstable right now. Vastly > different responses to surveys occur depending on how questions are > worded. > So the value of GMO-free commodities is poorly defined in the market. But > this will change. > > Probably, some entrepreneurs will begin marketing "GMO-free" foods at a > premium price, taking labeling into their own hands as it were. To be > reliably free (that is, totally free) of GMO might be pretty expensive. > If > labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will > probably say: "May contain transgenic material." > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 12:01:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08919 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29714 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29650 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02789; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm11-13.nidlink.com [216.18.141.116]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA02701; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:27:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912131627.IAA02701@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:30:48 -0800 To: Bill Liebhardt , Walt and Jill Auburn From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Re: GMO labeling Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, In-Reply-To: <199912130417.XAA23476@thehub.knight-hub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 621 Re the FDA biotech hearings, we are posting some of the major press coverage on Ag BioTech InfoNet at -- http://www.biotech-info.net/policy.html#fda We also have posted 8 of the statements delivered thus far, and no doubt will post many more as people get them to us. To reach the statements, go to -- http://www.biotech-info.net/FDA_hearings.html People interested in FDA policy may also wish to review the important debate over "substantial equivalence" triggered by the Millstone et al letter in Nature. For the Millstone piece and responses, see -- http://www.biotech-info.net/policy.html#discussion chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 12:23:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09279 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09046 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:54:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mefocs1.me.nrcs.usda.gov (mefocs1.me.nrcs.usda.gov [199.144.21.191]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09026 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from me.usda.gov ([199.144.21.204]) by mefocs1.me.nrcs.usda.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3/USDA-ITC $Revision: 1.4 $) with ESMTP id LAA03623 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:57:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38552247.AE6A2923@me.usda.gov> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:43:51 -0500 From: Lisa Krall Organization: USDA-NRCS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Northeast Agroforestry Conference in March References: <199912082310.SAA28039@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AC0C3784F412ADF4987C3986" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 622 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AC0C3784F412ADF4987C3986 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have rescheduled the agroforestry conference that was to be held last fall. Here is the information. Please pass it along to others who may be interested. Thanks! Lisa SAVE THE DATE! NORTHEAST AGROFORESTRY CONFERENCE, MARCH 23 - 25, 2000, PORTLAND, MAINE DEADLINE FOR DISCOUNT REGISTRATION: FEB. 23, 2000 SPONSORED BY THE USDA NATURAL RESOURCES CONSERVATION SERVICE, THE MAINE AND NEW ENGLAND ASSOCIATIONS OF RC&D'S, AND USDA'S NATIONAL AGROFORESTRY CENTER "NEW INCOME OPPORTUNITIES FROM SPECIALTY PRODUCTS: AGROFORESTRY IN THE NORTHEAST" Radisson Eastland Hotel 157 High Street; Portland, ME 04101 Dates: March 23 - 25, 2000 The conference will feature addresses on current opportunities and emerging markets, practical break out sessions on a variety of products, presented by producers, panel discussions, and a tour. Single day registrations and scholarships are also available. For more information, including schedules and registration forms, visit our web site at http://www.thresholdtomaine.org/agroforestry/ or contact Velma Orcutt Down East RC&D PO Box 210 Cherryfield, ME 04622-0210 Phone: 207 546-2368, fax 207-546-2369 email Velma.Orcutt@me.usda.gov -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lisa Krall, Agronomist, New England IRT USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service 967 Illinois Avenue, Suite #3 Bangor, ME 04401 Tel: 207-990-9100, Extension 3 FAX: 207 990-9599 email: lisa.krall@me.usda.gov VoiceMail: 1 800 384-USDA, 767-8200 --------------AC0C3784F412ADF4987C3986 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="Lisa.Krall.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lisa Krall Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Lisa.Krall.vcf" begin:vcard n:Krall;Lisa tel;fax:207 990-9599 tel;work:207 990-9100 ext.3 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:NEIRT;USDA NRCS version:2.1 email;internet:lisa.krall@me.usda.gov title:Agronomist adr;quoted-printable:;;967 Illinois Ave.=0D=0A;Bangor;ME;04401;USA fn:Lisa Krall end:vcard --------------AC0C3784F412ADF4987C3986-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Dec 13 10:41:25 1999 -0500 Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07281 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA19464; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:35:03 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id AAA04117; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:05:50 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912131605.AAA04117@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 13 Dec 99 22:44:17 Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) To: london@metalab.unc.edu Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 623 >forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a >health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket >from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there I've come across this statistic (1 in 2 life-time cancer incidence) several times. I've also used it, but I get challenged where I got it. May I know the source of this data? Roberto From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Dec 13 10:58:49 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07568 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12293 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:41:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12264 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA19464; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:35:03 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id AAA04117; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:05:50 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912131605.AAA04117@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 13 Dec 99 22:44:17 Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) To: london@metalab.unc.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 624 >forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a >health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket >from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there I've come across this statistic (1 in 2 life-time cancer incidence) several times. I've also used it, but I get challenged where I got it. May I know the source of this data? Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 13:12:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10380 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01965 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:47:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01857 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-175.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.175]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA25591 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:47:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006701bf45ab$5b678ba0$acf86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991213065723.00828b60@pond.net> Subject: Re: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:48:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 625 > I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free of GM. And of > course I mean they have actually tested and really are free. Or are they > "forbidden" to be truthful. Beth > > Beth- > If I do not want GMO in any of my products, I am not willing to pay the > bill for any testing or certifying. It certainly was not my change that > caused the expense. Well who pays for the testing I suppose can not be ignored but that was not my question. My question is is it now legal for a company, who is telling the truth, to label their food GM free? Frankly the extra cost may just be worth it, same as paying higher prices for organics (which includes the price of testing and certifying). Buying organics usually means you are avoiding food grown in a manner you don't approve of and had no control over its inception. Beth To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 14:28:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11983 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01339 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:55:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01331 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMP00AKX0AODG@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:51:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:36:10 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: Rare, animalborne disease a medical mystery To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 626 Howdy, all-- This article appeared in the Boston Globe yesterday. Thought it might interest. peace m ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >RE: Globe article by Terry Allen: Rare, animalborne disease a >medical mystery > > >Boston Globe 12/12/99 > Rare, animalborne disease a medical mystery > > Officials examine Maine deer in hunt for clues > > By Terry J. Allen, Globe Correspondent, > > New England is entwined in a medical mystery that stretches across >species and the country. The clues raise more questions than >answers: Three young people, one with links to Maine, have >contracted an extremely rare, infectious disease that leads to >dementia and death. A strikingly similar disease is killing >thousands of deer and elk in the western United States. Elk farms in >New England, which cater to an Asian market for aphrodisiacs, are >importing animals that officials warn could spread the infection. > > And in the background looms the specter of mad cow disease, the >British epidemic responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of >thousands of cattle, the devastation of the British beef industry, >and the death, so far, of more than 40 people. > > Researchers are struggling to determine if these factors are part >of the same trail of evidence or if they are connected only by >coincidence and fear. > > Either way, there is no denying that federal researchers are >worried. How else to explain why a US Department of Agriculture >official came to Maine last month to supervise a ''harvest'' of 299 >heads from deer shot during the fall hunting season? ''They used a >fancy spoon to scoop out a portion near the brain stem for >analysis,'' said Mark Caron, a Maine wildlife biologist. > > The reasoning behind the examination of deer brains? One of the >young victims of the rare disease who lived in the South had, years >before her death, eaten meat from deer her father had shot in Maine. > > The Maine samples are part of a nationwide investigation into a >family of diseases called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, >or TSE, that do similar damage to the brains of different mammals >deer, elk, sheep, cattle, cats, mink, and humans. But they are >subtly different illnesses. And until mad cow disease - the bovine >TSE - hit Britain and apparently spread to people who ate infected >beef, most scientists believed TSEs did not jump from one species to >another. > > The possibility that chronic wasting disease the TSE that affects >deer and elk has made the leap to humans is what had federal >researchers concerned enough to survey Maine. > > The 28yearold woman who ate Maine deer died of CreutzfeldtJakob >disease the human TSE. There are only five reported CreutzfeldtJakob >cases per billion worldwide in people 30 years old or under, >according to Lawrence Schonberger of the federal Centers for Disease >Control. > > Yet, since 1996, CreutzfeldtJakob disease has been detected in >three Americans in that age group; two are dead and one is dying. >All three, it turns out, had hunted extensively or eaten venison. > > ''It may be a coincidence,'' said Dr. Pierluigi Gambetti, professor >of pathology and director of the National Prion Disease Pathology >Surveillance Center at Case Western University in Cleveland, where >the Centers for Disease Control sends its human brain samples. ''It >would be imprudent to say there is a danger of an epidemic. But, >yes, it's something that has to be studied.'' > > > Said Thomas Pringle, a biochemist who runs a Web site on TSEs: >''What has CDC worried is that the original tipoff in Britain that >something was wrong was the upsurge in cases of CreutzfeldtJakob >disease in young people.'' > > The CDC medical epidemiologist, Ermias Belay, citing a Red Cross >survey, emphasized that since 40 percent of Americans have eaten >wild venison at least once, the three cases could be explained by >chance alone. ''If there had been one more,'' he said, ''it might >tip the balance.'' > > But, countered Michael Hansen, a research associate at Consumer's >Union, ''Given how rare the disease is in young people and how >difficult it is to make a diagnosis, the possibility that some cases >go undetected cannot be ruled out.'' > > That is what nearly happened last year in Utah to Tracie McEwan. >The young wife and mother of two watched desperately as, over a few >months, her 28yearold husband, Doug, lost motor control and memory, >became disoriented, and suffered dramatic mood swings. > > ''After doctors performed hundreds of tests,'' Tracie recalled, ''I >saw a television show about mad cow disease.'' She demanded the >doctors test for CreutzfeldtJakob disease. A brain biopsy confirmed >her fears. > > ''We have decided to get pretty aggressive, primarily because of >the situation in Britain,'' said the CDC's Schonberger. He >emphasized, however, that ''none of the three cases has been linked >to chronic wasting disease in deer and elk. > > While the threat to humans remains theoretical, the danger of the >disease within deer and elk populations is real and growing. ''It's >been spreading slowly since it was first found in the wild in >1981,'' said Beth Williams, a professor of veterinary services with >the University of Wyoming. Chronic wasting disease is now a major >problem in Colorado and Wyoming, infecting 4 to 8 percent of the >62,000 deer there and 1 percent of elk, she said. > > In states other than Wyoming and Colorado, tests on 4,500 seemingly >healthy wild animals have found no evidence of disease, but that >sampling does not fully allay scientists' concerns. TSEs are caused >by prions, a puzzling proteinlike substance that is extremely >difficult to detect or kill. Prions can remain infectious on >correctly sterilized surgical instruments and have been transmitted >through corneal transplants, growth hormones, and meat that has been >thoroughly cooked. > > They are also apparently passed among deer and elk by routine kinds >of contact. Outbreaks of chronic wasting disease have spread among >farmed elk not only in Colorado and Wyoming, but in other parts of >the West, forcing the destruction of herds and the quarantining of >farms. Montana saw its first confirmed case last month. > > So far New England appears to be free of the disease, but the >chance of infection rises with the number of western elk shipped >east to supply the region's growing elk farming industry. The >animals are prized for the velvet on their antlers, believed in some >parts of Asia to be aphrodisiacs. > > ''Elk farming is the recipe for introducing CWD into areas where it >has not existed before,'' said Dr. Victor Nettles, director of the >Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study, referring to >chronic wasting disease. > > ''We are at the extremely initial stage of awareness and >monitoring,'' warned Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the >Massachusetts Wildlife Division. ''But states need to be aggressive. >It's only going to get worse, so it's important to be vigilant. That >is the only way you keep the diseases out.'' > > Of immediate concern to New England's wildlife managers is the >health of native deer, which support the region's multibilliondollar >hunting industry. Since there is a two to fiveyear incubation period >and no reliable test for live animals, apparently healthy elk can >harbor and spread the disease. > > The elktrading network is extensive and loosely regulated. >Paperwork that accompanies each elk to Vermont, for example, tells >only where the animal was bought, not where it was a year or even a >month before. And if the herd it passed through later has an >outbreak of chronic wasting disease, there are no procedures to >trace exposed elk or issue warnings. > > Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire have not formally notified elk >farmers to be on the lookout for neurological symptoms, nor do they >require reporting of suspicious symptoms. In Vermont, when one of >the state's 250 captive elk dies, the owner may comply with a >voluntary program for testing. > > ''From the standpoint of protecting wildlife,'' said Steve Weber, >chief of New Hampshire's Wildlife Division, ''a ban on elk farming >is the prudent thing to do, but when balanced against existing >industry, there are tradeoffs you make.'' New Hampshire has a >handful of elk farms and a few hundred elk, Weber estimated. > > So far, Massachusetts is the only New England state to ban elk >farming. ''Anytime you want to fence in a wild animal it's going to >get out,'' warned Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the >Massachusetts Wildlife Division. ''We worry about interbreeding and >genetic pollution as well as the introduction of chronic wasting >disease.'' > > That infected western elk can transmit TSE to native New England >deer is established science. The more troubling and as yet unsolved >mystery is whether, like its bovine counterpart, chronic wasting >disease can, or has, jumped species to infect humans. > >C Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company. >Terry J. Allens e-mail is To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 18:29:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16063 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09976 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:04:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09865 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.158]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:10:30 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:02:37 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: GMO labeling Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 627 On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:37:56 -0600, Fulton, John wrote: > I'd hate to mandate that everyone pay more for labeling that, at >present, concerns only a minority. We already pay for a lot of labelling that concerns only a minority. Look at the 'Nutrition Facts' on virtually any food sold in the States. Please tell me, who cares about the protein content of mineral water? More useful on the tequila with the worm in it ! Those nutrient content tests you have to buy from Covance (or their competitors) don't come cheap. More disturbing is to hear the government saying (on the one hand) 'We shouldn't label for GMOs because it would confuse consumers.' yet on the other hand to remember that the government had to be pressured to include 'calories from fat' on those same Nutrition Fact labels. The same FDA folks suggesting that consumers aren't sophisticated enough to understand a GMO label felt that those same consumers were sophisticated enough to know that fat contains 9 Calories per gram, and to multiply the number of grams of fat times 9 and divide the result by the total number of Calories. They flat out refused to do the logical thing, which is to have a straightforward listing of the percentage of Calories from fat. The simple fact of the matter is that the food industry vetoed it. So now the US has the most complete, most complicated nutrition labelling in the world, for our 'unsophisticated' consumers. Best labels, but we are the most obese, most poorly nourished nation in the world. Obviously only a few of us pay attention to those labels. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 18:41:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16226 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA21471 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21467 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: PetersFarm@aol.com Received: from PetersFarm@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id v.0.4dd4a1c9 (300); Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:22:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.4dd4a1c9.2586d9c3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:22:43 EST Subject: Re: Biodiesel/Capicum question To: mmiller@pcsia.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 Don't know about capsicum, but if you do an Internet Search for "Veggie Van" you can choose from a half dozen UR:'s that will tell you lots about BioDiesel. A young couple have crossed the U.S. in their VW bus, fueled by used cooking oil that they pick up at places like McDonald's, without advance notice. Works fine, smells better than normal diesel smell. Do Look It Up! Happy Days, Ann Gras To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 18:45:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16284 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27012 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:29:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27007 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-7-20.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.68]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA15625; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:31:04 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bf45c4$ad875fa0$445f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: "Bluestem Associates" , Subject: Re: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:49:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 Aren't operations that have sales less than a hundred thousand dollars a year exempt from nutrition labeling? Also, on side note on meat labeling people do not have to submit for label approval if the plant already has a label on a product such as bacon, ham, keilbasa, etc if all that is being changed is the name on the label. In fact approval isn't needed if the predominant meat is not changed. For example I had keilbasa made. The plant had a label for a pork and beef keilbasa that was 80% pork and 20% beef. I had a 100% keilbasa made. I didn't need to submit for label approval. I should have only had to send it to the printing shop. Food Safety Inspection Service (FSIS) told me AFTERWARDS that I didn't need to get the label approved because the plant already had a label and I didn't change the predominant meat. Anyhow, I don't have any nutritional information on my labels. Just ingredients on processed products. I look forward to the day my sales exceed the level that requires nutrition labelling!!! Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp -----Original Message----- From: Bluestem Associates To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Monday, December 13, 1999 6:19 PM Subject: RE: GMO labeling >On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:37:56 -0600, Fulton, John wrote: > >> I'd hate to mandate that everyone pay more for labeling that, at >>present, concerns only a minority. > >We already pay for a lot of labelling that concerns only a minority. >Look at the 'Nutrition Facts' on virtually any food sold in the States. >Please tell me, who cares about the protein content of mineral water? >More useful on the tequila with the worm in it ! Those nutrient content >tests you have to buy from Covance (or their competitors) don't come >cheap. > >More disturbing is to hear the government saying (on the one hand) 'We >shouldn't label for GMOs because it would confuse consumers.' yet on >the other hand to remember that the government had to be pressured to >include 'calories from fat' on those same Nutrition Fact labels. The >same FDA folks suggesting that consumers aren't sophisticated enough to >understand a GMO label felt that those same consumers were >sophisticated enough to know that fat contains 9 Calories per gram, and >to multiply the number of grams of fat times 9 and divide the result by >the total number of Calories. They flat out refused to do the logical >thing, which is to have a straightforward listing of the percentage of >Calories from fat. > >The simple fact of the matter is that the food industry vetoed it. So >now the US has the most complete, most complicated nutrition labelling >in the world, for our 'unsophisticated' consumers. Best labels, but we >are the most obese, most poorly nourished nation in the world. >Obviously only a few of us pay attention to those labels. > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 18:54:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16413 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:54:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06764 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:43:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06757 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (71.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.101]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA03583 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:45:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912132345.RAA03583@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: FYI Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:44:30 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 630 JANUARY 2000 20th Annual Ecological Farming Conference Monterey, California January 19-22 Conducted by the Committee for Sustainable Agriculture (CSA) and one of the best annual ecological farming conferences in the West. For more information, call Lamaia Hoffmann, Soil Conservationist, at (831) 475-1967, or contact CSA directly at 406 Main St., Suite 313, Watsonville, CA 95076. Phone (831) 763-2111; fax (831) 763-2112; or visit MARCH 2000 Sustainable Agriculture Coming of Age in the Year 2000 Portland, Oregon March 7-9 Innovative agricultural techniques, scientific research, networking, visions of the future, and examples of successful sustainable agriculture. Sponsored by USDA Western Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education, with contributions from land-grant universities and the Federal sustainable agriculture effort. Check the web site at August 2000 Carbon: Exploring the Benefits to Farmers and Society August 29-31 Des Moines, Iowa This conference will present the ag perspective on emerging policies and technologies involving carbon management and sequestration as well as other greenhouse gases. It will focus on the impacts and benefits of carbon sequestration affecting ag producers, society and the environment. It will also provide an opportunity for the exchange of knowledge and ideas from a cross-section of policy, science and industry perspectives. For more information please contact Jim Cooper, Coordinator, Chariton Valley RC&D at 515/437-4376 or To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From t-om@efn.org Mon Dec 13 21:22:37 1999 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17825 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from garcia.efn.org (t-om@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09790; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (t-om@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28471; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: t-om owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: "tom f. seaman" To: Kelly Fitzgerald cc: lauraclose@hotmail.com, jammich624@aol.com, brennafitz30@hotmail.com, cmarieb@mcps.k12.mt.us, cdreamer@voicenet.com, mrenee76@hotmail.com, research@ofrf.org, cj@cyberjournal.org, cdr@cyberjournal.org, renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org, rkmoore@iol.ie, intrprtr@prodigy.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@titan.oit.unc.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu, karlvasa@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991208212904.82828.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id VAA17825 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 631 rumor control!!! i tryed to send this to everyone i could find listed in this ... please forgive me if i doubled up on you... this article is inflamatory, written by an angry person who exagerates in his excitment, or gov./corp. designed to inflame... misinformation should have been the complete title to this one. there is much in here that i was not present for, and so do not know if it is true, what i do know of, i comment on at the begining here, it all refers to something in the body of the article... and, yes, it was a riot, with seemingly out-of-control cops... remember their humanness, realise they were afraid... spreading half truth degrades the truth i know it is hard in crisis to keep a level head, and acurate reporting... if you want more balanced, real reporting, ====> http://www.indymedia.org i was there, and there are several things in this e-mess that lead me to want to be rumor control i heard there were 3 windows broken before 3 tuesday afternoon, a minor point, but together with others paints a skewed picture. if true, and it was what the word on the street and even named the three windows, but i did not remember the names... more to the point i KNOW there was gasing earlier, i smelled it from 3 blocks away! it happened near 9:00 or10:00 in the morning, my friends were gassed. as to young cops/old cops... they were both there both times, and age made little differance to relative aggressiveness in my witnessing. calling them trainees is just foolish. no one could believe it. it makes me see this as possible gov't propaganda, just like some of the vandalism could have been corporate instigated, esp. considering how it was an excuse to gas everyone nearby, and not pick-up the vandals... also, the longshoremen did not join the wednesdasy march up to 3rd st. . they stayed down at the docks...this whole article uses crocodile tear style words and is great propaganda... i did hear first hand people coming out of jail saying that the guards said that they were having difficulty treating the political prisoners as harshly as they were ordered to. they did not like it, but had to follow orders, just like small countries in the wto had to follow big ones or be locked out, it is the same abuse of power scenario. divide and concouer. it is our job to comfort the distressed, AND to disstress the comfortable, wherever we find them... also...quoting myself... society is like a stew, if you do not keep stirring it, the scum rises, the middle evaporates, and the bottom gets burnt! thanks for listening! and remember the purpose of this, it is to teach the world that careing for each other is more important than dollars! loving even your oppressor while you teach them to share power with, instead of need power over. they think they need power due to feeling insecure. this insecurity is why love wins, and why they get abusive when we do not play "i-need-power games" with them; it threatens their whole world-view and makes them look at themselves, how fear-full they are. it lets out this fear, and they attack. we build secure alternatives, they try to destroy us, and fall over themselves of their own weight. bring them the light. when you react and call them names you play their game... learning to love, loving to learn... t-om On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kelly Fitzgerald wrote: > > > > >From: Organic Farming Research Foundation > >To: Kelly Fitzgerald , Michelle Renee > >, Andy Edgerley > >Subject: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) > >Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 10:25:11 -0800 > > > > >X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing > >-bs > > >Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:13 -0500 (EST) > > >From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > >X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu > > >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > >Subject: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) > > >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by > >shasta.ces.ncsu.edu > > >id KAA27590 > > >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > > > > > > > >> From: cyberjournal > >> Subject: Seattle residents report... > > >> Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:27 PM > > > > > >> -----Forwarded Message----- > > >> > > >> Collateral Damage in Seattle > > >> > > >> Report from Portland student Jim Desyllas (posted 12-2-99) > > >> > > >> Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm > > >> Pacific time. > > >> > > >> I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are > > >> getting from the mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. > > >> Clinton claims, a peaceful protest marred by the actions of > > >> violent protesters. This was a massive, strong but peaceful > > >> demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the police > > >> with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to > > >> provide photo opportunities for the Western media. I know > > >> because I watched it happening. I'll tell you how they did > > >> it. > > >> > > >> As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World > > >> Order" (See Note # 1 at end for link to that article) - the > > >> government put a lot of effort into making sure the > > >> protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" who wanted > > >> to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in > > >> Seattle - American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, > > >> college kids from all over, environmentalists from Australia > > >> - you name it - were not for reforming the WTO. They were > > >> for getting rid of it. > > >> > > >> And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed > > >> delegates. None of them had anything favorable to say about > > >> the WTO. Two delegates from the Caribbean were angry about > > >> job loss. One delegate from Peru took a bullhorn and got up > > >> on a car and spoke to the protestors against the World Trade > > >> Organization. He said it hurts the workers and farmers. I > > >> interviewed a Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against > > >> it. Even a delegate from Holland said it had hurt the > > >> farmers there. He said though it is supposedly democratic, > > >> that's actually a lie: the US, England and Canada and a few > > >> others get together and decide what they want to do. Then > > >> they ask the rest of the countries to vote and if they vote > > >> wrong they threaten,"You won't get loans," or whatever. They > > >> get them to do what they want by blackmailing them. The > > >> Italians we interviewed were upset too. I couldn't find any > > >> delegates who were in favor. > > >> > > >> So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the > > >> movement against the WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I > > >> am not guessing about this. I was there. I saw it happening. > > >> And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to see, close up, > > >> just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary > > >> people. Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff > > >> but the truth is - we are nothing to them. I saw this with > > >> my own eyes. > > >> > > >> Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people > > >> were aggressively non-violent; they were self-policing. Up > > >> until Tuesday at 4pm there was one window broken in the > > >> whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares favorably to > > >> the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of > > >> people who were non-violently barring entry to the World > > >> Trade Center! > > >> > > >> At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - > > >> moved in and started gassing people and shooting rubber > > >> bullets. Is it any surprise that people got mad? Of course, > > >> the young kids hit back by breaking some windows in > > >> retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful > > >> pepper gas, and shot with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The > > >> police instigated these kids, plain and simple. > > >> > > >> Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block > > >> the streets. These were trainees. But Tuesday they had the > > >> real cops; none of them were young. They were trained to > > >> attack people. A small group, maybe 100 people total, struck > > >> back. Then these cops herded that group around the city, > > >> making sure there were plenty of photo ops of "violent > > >> protesters." > > >> > > >> A number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught > > >> between buildings and walls of police. They could easily > > >> have arrested and detained this small number of people and > > >> gotten it over with. Instead they would gas them and let > > >> them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again let > > >> them go. The cops made no arrests that I know of until late > > >> Tuesday night though the skirmishing was going on from three > > >> till 9:30. The cops would blockade three or five blocks of > > >> an area, give the angry kids room to operate, keep gassing > > >> them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it gets them > > >> fighting mad. > > >> > > >> Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was > > >> going on from 3 PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids > > >> broke a few windows - McD's, Starbucks - small stuff - > > >> burned a few garbage cans. The police were using these > > >> people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police > > >> had their own people in there, encouraging people to break > > >> stuff - if people think I may be exaggerating, I saw > > >> supposed protesters - they were screaming and so on - and > > >> then later, when everything was over, the same people > > >> tackled other protestors and put handcuffs on them. > > >> > > >> At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they > > >> had pushed the 100 people outside the city limits, so the > > >> police went outside the limits too, and they started gassing > > >> that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where the regular > > >> people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were > > >> relentless. > > >> > > >> This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks > > >> to the Seattle Central Community College. If you were alive, > > >> the police gassed you. People coming back from work, kids, > > >> women, everyone. People would go out of their houses to see > > >> what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a > > >> cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a > > >> Texaco gas station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, > > >> believe it or not - they were like vandals. They gassed a > > >> bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The driver, the > > >> riders, the people just abandoned it . > > >> > > >> I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim > > >> did not spell this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were > > >> shooting "rubber" bullets at the glass. I picked up a dozen > > >> of the things in a few square feet. They were also shooting > > >> this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. > > >> They would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting > > >> them. > > >> > > >> Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local > > >> people got mad too and they joined the 100 who had been > > >> herded out of the city. So soon there were 500 including the > > >> neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. Because > > >> they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff > > >> does a number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then > > >> people set up barricades at Seattle Central Community > > >> College. The cops organized themselves for about an hour and > > >> then moved in and gassed that area. > > >> > > >> Today they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - > > >> the Greeks call him the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - > > >> was coming. Weeping crocodile tears about how he just LOVES > > >> peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be two years > > >> old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. > > >> This whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign > > >> policy, not some action decided by some bureaucrat in > > >> Seattle. This was the State Department. They wanted to > > >> discredit the people. > > >> > > >> When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of > > >> solidarity involving people from different walks of life. > > >> Monday it got even bigger. Tuesday there was a big sort of > > >> carnival where people were doing different things, a band > > >> was playing music and people were blocking the World Trade > > >> Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas. > > >> > > >> The thing that drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the > > >> protesters had succeeded in making nonviolent human chains > > >> and had therefore stopped everyone from going into the World > > >> Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegates got through, mostly US > > >> and British. There were what seemed like tens of thousands > > >> of protesters involved. So the police did their gassing > > >> number against these nonviolent people to break up the human > > >> chains and make the protesters look violent. > > >> > > >> Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together > > >> by the Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and > > >> had a rally then marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they > > >> got there the cops started gassing them. There was an old > > >> lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy something. > > >> This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but > > >> she couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a > > >> building entryway. She was gasping, terrified. She had been > > >> in Germany, and it was like she was having flashbacks. The > > >> tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were helicopters > > >> overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything. > > >> > > >> They had clearly made a decision to destroy this movement. > > >> > > >> So anyway there I was with her in this building and she > > >> wanted to go to the hospital but there was tear gas > > >> everywhere and I was afraid if I tried to move her she'd be > > >> gassed again. I went to this line of cops and begged - I > > >> mean begged - these riot police to help her. They ignored > > >> me. A girl told me later that a one year old had been > > >> gassed. And I myself saw a girl no more than 18 - a cop had > > >> busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding - and then they > > >> gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling > > >> on the ground crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, > > >> Hail Mary, Hail Mary. Over and over. She was in a state of > > >> shock. They just gassed these people who were sitting down > > >> non-violently and doing nothing. Nothing. > > >> > > >> At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using > > >> rubber bullets. Miraculously, by then I had ten in my > > >> pocket. I could open a little market, sell the things. They > > >> are everywhere. I and other people started giving them to > > >> delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're > > >> shooting "rubber" bullets and lying about it." We showed > > >> them to the media. I guess enough people and the media got > > >> the information because the Mayor made a new statement then > > >> that they were using them. As if he hadn't known. > > >> > > >> They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face > > >> of a guy next to me, broke all his front teeth. When that > > >> happened I lost it. I forgot I was supposed to be getting > > >> the news for all of you and I started yelling at the cops, > > >> "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So > > >> this cop aimed his gun right at me. That was his answer. So > > >> I first put my hands in front of my face because I didn't > > >> want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to hell with it. > > >> I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", > > >> you know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the > > >> bombing in Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, > > >> shoot! Here! Here's the target!" He didn't shoot me. > > >> > > >> I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent > > >> people. They were the most non-violent people I have ever > > >> seen. Even when I was screaming at the cop, this girl came > > >> up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is non-violent." > > >> These people were too much to believe. They must meditate > > >> all the time, I don't know. > > >> > > >> Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is > > >> baloney. Today (Wed.) the protesters were causing absolutely > > >> no "trouble". In downtown the cops had people running who > > >> weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just people > > >> going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The > > >> busses weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to > > >> catch one with a driver who could still see. I begged him to > > >> drive the old lady home - the driver changed his route > > >> especially for her. If you want to find human decency, stay > > >> away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. > > >> They have some. The Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now > > >> he wouldn't know human decency if it came up and bit him. > > >> > > >> So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who > > >> run this country, and they are quite simply scum. There were > > >> people at work, people with babies, they were all getting > > >> gassed because the government would not allow an assembly of > > >> people speaking their minds. It is the same as what happened > > >> in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government > > >> created the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he > > >> says he supports nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber > > >> bullets? And today they outlawed gas masks. They want to > > >> make sure everyone gets his money's worth. > > >> > > >> Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the > > >> residential neighborhoods. People in cafés were getting > > >> gassed and shot at, you could hear it on the windows, bang, > > >> bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street to go to his > > >> house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at > > >> the cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then > > >> this other guys was just crossing the street to go home so > > >> the cops figured, might as well gas him too. People got > > >> gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffeee > > >> shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or > > >> something. > > >> > > >> Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I > > >> mean after all, it's just collateral damage.. > > >> > > >> *** > > >> > > >> Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade > > >> Organization, click on SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW > > >> WORLD ORDER or go to > > >> http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm > > >> > > >> If you would like to browse articles from > > >> Emperors-Clothes.com, click here Or go to: > > >> http://www.emperors-clothes.com > > >> > > >> > >============================================================================ > > >> Delivered-To: moderator for renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org > > >> Delivered-To: moderator for cj@cyberjournal.org > > >> From: intrprtr@prodigy.net > > >> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 18:24:42 -0800 > > >> To: (Recipient list suppressed) > > >> Subject: FW: Hell In Seattle > > >> > > >> {FROM AN OLD-TIME RESIDENT OF THE GREATER SEATTLE AREA: > > >> Thoughts On Witnessing Three Days Of Hell In Seattle} > > >> > > >> -----Forwarded Message----- > > >> > > >> [recipient's name deleted] > > >> > > >> As you, no doubt, are fully aware, I am no friend of anarchy > > >> and civil disorder -- far from it, in fact; but, in the > > >> course of the last several days, even I have had no choice > > >> but to conclude that our local "authorities" clearly > > >> overstepped their bounds. > > >> > > >> The police brutality exhibited by some of our local "boys in > > >> black" (and I purposely say some, since not all of them were > > >> involved ) in Seattle -- especially on Tuesday and Wednesday > > >> -- was (shades of Lenin's "Che-Ka"!!) horrifying, to say the > > >> least. (One of the motive forces that seemingly drives some > > >> such men to become "peace officers" is an inherent sense of > > >> sadism!) > > >> > > >> The last such occasion that springs to mind occurred on the > > >> University of Washington campus (back in 1970, if I recall > > >> the year correctly), when one of my girlfriends was > > >> returning to her dormitory from the U.W.'s undergrad > > >> ("Suzallo") library and was attacked by Seattle's "riot > > >> police," who cracked her skull for "walking on campus." > > >> (Well, how else was she to get back to her dorm from the > > >> library -- fly?!?) > > >> > > >> This week, old people and babies were pepper-sprayed and > > >> gassed indiscriminately; people totally uninvolved in the > > >> protests against the WTO, many of whom were simply trying to > > >> get home from work, were beaten, kicked, and shot with > > >> so-called "rubber" bullets -- you name it... (One man was > > >> kicked in the groin and shot at close range.) > > >> > > >> Many people with legitimate concerns in downtown Seattle > > >> were gratuitously pepper-sprayed by the police, simply > > >> because they happened to be present as the police went by. > > >> (Policemen would turn and shoot streams of pepper-spray into > > >> their faces -- this, after having passed by them, in the > > >> first place!) Even several WTO delegates were pushed around > > >> by the police, believe it or not! > > >> > > >> Those individuals who attempted to assist the fallen were > > >> themselves subjected to police brutality; police "batons" > > >> come raining down on both the people who had collapsed and > > >> on those trying to help them get up. Meanwhile, the police > > >> deliberately pressed their heavy boots down upon the heads > > >> of those on the ground (who were being handcuffed with the > > >> particularly cruel "flexi-cuffs" under the pretext that they > > >> were "resisting"), in order to prevent them from being able > > >> to "move on," as they were being "ordered" by the police > > >> (who then proceeded to gas, pepper-spray and shoot them at > > >> close range with "rubber" bullets in clear cases of > > >> deliberate and unwarranted cruelty). In one case, a woman > > >> fell to the ground and the police then began to shoot > > >> pepper-spray at her and at a person who was attempting to > > >> help her get up! (Media video also showed the police > > >> harassing a just-gassed older woman who was merely trying to > > >> unlock her car so that she could get away from these horrors > > >> and get home!) > > >> > > >> Clouds of tear gas were sent flying into business > > >> establishments, and the people inside were then attacked by > > >> the police as they tried to get out (it having become a > > >> "crime" in Seattle to possess, buy or wear a gas-mask if one > > >> is a civilian). This was all witnessed by [my fiancee] and > > >> myself, watching day-long TV coverage of the events from the > > >> safety of our home. Had we been caught in the "crossfire" of > > >> gas and pepper-spray, we might well have died, under those > > >> circumstances, as you are fully aware, due to our severe > > >> cases of asthma and chemical-sensitivity -- especially, > > >> without gas-masks! > > >> > > >> What is especially disconcerting is that the police were > > >> attacking peaceful protestors, while the anarchistic and > > >> criminal elements were allowed free rein -- almost as if by > > >> collusion with "the powers that be"!? > > >> > > >> So this week, [name deleted], has provided us with a > > >> foretaste of what the "New World Order" holds in store for > > >> us, if it is ever allowed to come fully into its own! The > > >> Gestapo and the "Che-Ka" were merely the "blossoms" -- will > > >> we live to see the "berries"? God knows! > > >> > > >> -- Yura > > >> > > >> > >======================================================================== > > >> cj@cyberjournal.org - a political discussion forum > > >> crafted in Ireland by rkm - (Richard K. Moore) > > >> To subscribe, send any message to cj-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org - an activists forum > > >> To subscribe, send any message to: > > >> renaissance-network-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> A public service of "Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance" > > >> cdr@cyberjournal.org http://cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> **-- Non-commercial reposting is encouraged, > > >> but please include the sig up through this paragraph > > >> and retain any internal credits and copyright notices. > > >> Copyrighted materials are posted under "fair-use". > > >> > > >> To see the index of the list archives, send a blank message to: > > >> cj-index@cyberjournal.org or to: > > >> renaissance-network-index@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> To sample the book-in-progress, "Globalization and the > > >> Revolutionary Imperative", see: > > >> http://cyberjournal.org/cdr/gri/gri.html > > >> > > >> Help create the Movement for a Democratic Renaissance! > > >> > > >> A community will evolve only when > > >> the people control their means of communication. > > >> -- Frantz Fanon > > >> > > >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful > > >> committed citizens can change the world, > > >> indeed it's the only thing that ever has. > > >> - Margaret Mead > > >> > > >> . > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cj-unsubscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: cj-help@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> "Do not be discouraged. As your motivation grows more and more vast, > > >> your > > >> capacity for positive qualities will expand too. If you maintain the > > >> constant wish to benefit others, the power to actually do so will come > > >> by > > >> itself, as naturally as water runs downhill" > > >> --Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche > > >> > > >> _________ > > >> The Hunger Site webpage (donate food daily without cost to you to help > > >> end > > >> world starvation): http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > >command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > >Organic Farming Research Foundation > >P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > >ph: (831) 426-6606 fax: (831) 426-6670 > >www.ofrf.org > > ______________________________________________________ From t-om@efn.org Mon Dec 13 21:22:40 1999 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17829 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from garcia.efn.org (t-om@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09790; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (t-om@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28471; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: t-om owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: "tom f. seaman" To: Kelly Fitzgerald cc: lauraclose@hotmail.com, jammich624@aol.com, brennafitz30@hotmail.com, cmarieb@mcps.k12.mt.us, cdreamer@voicenet.com, mrenee76@hotmail.com, research@ofrf.org, cj@cyberjournal.org, cdr@cyberjournal.org, renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org, rkmoore@iol.ie, intrprtr@prodigy.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@titan.oit.unc.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu, karlvasa@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991208212904.82828.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id VAA17829 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 632 rumor control!!! i tryed to send this to everyone i could find listed in this ... please forgive me if i doubled up on you... this article is inflamatory, written by an angry person who exagerates in his excitment, or gov./corp. designed to inflame... misinformation should have been the complete title to this one. there is much in here that i was not present for, and so do not know if it is true, what i do know of, i comment on at the begining here, it all refers to something in the body of the article... and, yes, it was a riot, with seemingly out-of-control cops... remember their humanness, realise they were afraid... spreading half truth degrades the truth i know it is hard in crisis to keep a level head, and acurate reporting... if you want more balanced, real reporting, ====> http://www.indymedia.org i was there, and there are several things in this e-mess that lead me to want to be rumor control i heard there were 3 windows broken before 3 tuesday afternoon, a minor point, but together with others paints a skewed picture. if true, and it was what the word on the street and even named the three windows, but i did not remember the names... more to the point i KNOW there was gasing earlier, i smelled it from 3 blocks away! it happened near 9:00 or10:00 in the morning, my friends were gassed. as to young cops/old cops... they were both there both times, and age made little differance to relative aggressiveness in my witnessing. calling them trainees is just foolish. no one could believe it. it makes me see this as possible gov't propaganda, just like some of the vandalism could have been corporate instigated, esp. considering how it was an excuse to gas everyone nearby, and not pick-up the vandals... also, the longshoremen did not join the wednesdasy march up to 3rd st. . they stayed down at the docks...this whole article uses crocodile tear style words and is great propaganda... i did hear first hand people coming out of jail saying that the guards said that they were having difficulty treating the political prisoners as harshly as they were ordered to. they did not like it, but had to follow orders, just like small countries in the wto had to follow big ones or be locked out, it is the same abuse of power scenario. divide and concouer. it is our job to comfort the distressed, AND to disstress the comfortable, wherever we find them... also...quoting myself... society is like a stew, if you do not keep stirring it, the scum rises, the middle evaporates, and the bottom gets burnt! thanks for listening! and remember the purpose of this, it is to teach the world that careing for each other is more important than dollars! loving even your oppressor while you teach them to share power with, instead of need power over. they think they need power due to feeling insecure. this insecurity is why love wins, and why they get abusive when we do not play "i-need-power games" with them; it threatens their whole world-view and makes them look at themselves, how fear-full they are. it lets out this fear, and they attack. we build secure alternatives, they try to destroy us, and fall over themselves of their own weight. bring them the light. when you react and call them names you play their game... learning to love, loving to learn... t-om On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kelly Fitzgerald wrote: > > > > >From: Organic Farming Research Foundation > >To: Kelly Fitzgerald , Michelle Renee > >, Andy Edgerley > >Subject: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) > >Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 10:25:11 -0800 > > > > >X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing > >-bs > > >Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:36:13 -0500 (EST) > > >From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." > > >X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu > > >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > >Subject: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) > > >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by > >shasta.ces.ncsu.edu > > >id KAA27590 > > >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > > > > > > > >> From: cyberjournal > >> Subject: Seattle residents report... > > >> Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:27 PM > > > > > >> -----Forwarded Message----- > > >> > > >> Collateral Damage in Seattle > > >> > > >> Report from Portland student Jim Desyllas (posted 12-2-99) > > >> > > >> Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm > > >> Pacific time. > > >> > > >> I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are > > >> getting from the mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. > > >> Clinton claims, a peaceful protest marred by the actions of > > >> violent protesters. This was a massive, strong but peaceful > > >> demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the police > > >> with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to > > >> provide photo opportunities for the Western media. I know > > >> because I watched it happening. I'll tell you how they did > > >> it. > > >> > > >> As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World > > >> Order" (See Note # 1 at end for link to that article) - the > > >> government put a lot of effort into making sure the > > >> protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" who wanted > > >> to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in > > >> Seattle - American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, > > >> college kids from all over, environmentalists from Australia > > >> - you name it - were not for reforming the WTO. They were > > >> for getting rid of it. > > >> > > >> And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed > > >> delegates. None of them had anything favorable to say about > > >> the WTO. Two delegates from the Caribbean were angry about > > >> job loss. One delegate from Peru took a bullhorn and got up > > >> on a car and spoke to the protestors against the World Trade > > >> Organization. He said it hurts the workers and farmers. I > > >> interviewed a Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against > > >> it. Even a delegate from Holland said it had hurt the > > >> farmers there. He said though it is supposedly democratic, > > >> that's actually a lie: the US, England and Canada and a few > > >> others get together and decide what they want to do. Then > > >> they ask the rest of the countries to vote and if they vote > > >> wrong they threaten,"You won't get loans," or whatever. They > > >> get them to do what they want by blackmailing them. The > > >> Italians we interviewed were upset too. I couldn't find any > > >> delegates who were in favor. > > >> > > >> So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the > > >> movement against the WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I > > >> am not guessing about this. I was there. I saw it happening. > > >> And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to see, close up, > > >> just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary > > >> people. Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff > > >> but the truth is - we are nothing to them. I saw this with > > >> my own eyes. > > >> > > >> Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people > > >> were aggressively non-violent; they were self-policing. Up > > >> until Tuesday at 4pm there was one window broken in the > > >> whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares favorably to > > >> the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of > > >> people who were non-violently barring entry to the World > > >> Trade Center! > > >> > > >> At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - > > >> moved in and started gassing people and shooting rubber > > >> bullets. Is it any surprise that people got mad? Of course, > > >> the young kids hit back by breaking some windows in > > >> retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful > > >> pepper gas, and shot with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The > > >> police instigated these kids, plain and simple. > > >> > > >> Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block > > >> the streets. These were trainees. But Tuesday they had the > > >> real cops; none of them were young. They were trained to > > >> attack people. A small group, maybe 100 people total, struck > > >> back. Then these cops herded that group around the city, > > >> making sure there were plenty of photo ops of "violent > > >> protesters." > > >> > > >> A number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught > > >> between buildings and walls of police. They could easily > > >> have arrested and detained this small number of people and > > >> gotten it over with. Instead they would gas them and let > > >> them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again let > > >> them go. The cops made no arrests that I know of until late > > >> Tuesday night though the skirmishing was going on from three > > >> till 9:30. The cops would blockade three or five blocks of > > >> an area, give the angry kids room to operate, keep gassing > > >> them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it gets them > > >> fighting mad. > > >> > > >> Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was > > >> going on from 3 PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids > > >> broke a few windows - McD's, Starbucks - small stuff - > > >> burned a few garbage cans. The police were using these > > >> people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police > > >> had their own people in there, encouraging people to break > > >> stuff - if people think I may be exaggerating, I saw > > >> supposed protesters - they were screaming and so on - and > > >> then later, when everything was over, the same people > > >> tackled other protestors and put handcuffs on them. > > >> > > >> At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they > > >> had pushed the 100 people outside the city limits, so the > > >> police went outside the limits too, and they started gassing > > >> that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where the regular > > >> people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were > > >> relentless. > > >> > > >> This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks > > >> to the Seattle Central Community College. If you were alive, > > >> the police gassed you. People coming back from work, kids, > > >> women, everyone. People would go out of their houses to see > > >> what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a > > >> cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a > > >> Texaco gas station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, > > >> believe it or not - they were like vandals. They gassed a > > >> bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The driver, the > > >> riders, the people just abandoned it . > > >> > > >> I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim > > >> did not spell this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were > > >> shooting "rubber" bullets at the glass. I picked up a dozen > > >> of the things in a few square feet. They were also shooting > > >> this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. > > >> They would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting > > >> them. > > >> > > >> Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local > > >> people got mad too and they joined the 100 who had been > > >> herded out of the city. So soon there were 500 including the > > >> neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. Because > > >> they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff > > >> does a number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then > > >> people set up barricades at Seattle Central Community > > >> College. The cops organized themselves for about an hour and > > >> then moved in and gassed that area. > > >> > > >> Today they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - > > >> the Greeks call him the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - > > >> was coming. Weeping crocodile tears about how he just LOVES > > >> peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be two years > > >> old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. > > >> This whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign > > >> policy, not some action decided by some bureaucrat in > > >> Seattle. This was the State Department. They wanted to > > >> discredit the people. > > >> > > >> When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of > > >> solidarity involving people from different walks of life. > > >> Monday it got even bigger. Tuesday there was a big sort of > > >> carnival where people were doing different things, a band > > >> was playing music and people were blocking the World Trade > > >> Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas. > > >> > > >> The thing that drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the > > >> protesters had succeeded in making nonviolent human chains > > >> and had therefore stopped everyone from going into the World > > >> Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegates got through, mostly US > > >> and British. There were what seemed like tens of thousands > > >> of protesters involved. So the police did their gassing > > >> number against these nonviolent people to break up the human > > >> chains and make the protesters look violent. > > >> > > >> Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together > > >> by the Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and > > >> had a rally then marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they > > >> got there the cops started gassing them. There was an old > > >> lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy something. > > >> This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but > > >> she couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a > > >> building entryway. She was gasping, terrified. She had been > > >> in Germany, and it was like she was having flashbacks. The > > >> tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were helicopters > > >> overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything. > > >> > > >> They had clearly made a decision to destroy this movement. > > >> > > >> So anyway there I was with her in this building and she > > >> wanted to go to the hospital but there was tear gas > > >> everywhere and I was afraid if I tried to move her she'd be > > >> gassed again. I went to this line of cops and begged - I > > >> mean begged - these riot police to help her. They ignored > > >> me. A girl told me later that a one year old had been > > >> gassed. And I myself saw a girl no more than 18 - a cop had > > >> busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding - and then they > > >> gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling > > >> on the ground crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, > > >> Hail Mary, Hail Mary. Over and over. She was in a state of > > >> shock. They just gassed these people who were sitting down > > >> non-violently and doing nothing. Nothing. > > >> > > >> At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using > > >> rubber bullets. Miraculously, by then I had ten in my > > >> pocket. I could open a little market, sell the things. They > > >> are everywhere. I and other people started giving them to > > >> delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're > > >> shooting "rubber" bullets and lying about it." We showed > > >> them to the media. I guess enough people and the media got > > >> the information because the Mayor made a new statement then > > >> that they were using them. As if he hadn't known. > > >> > > >> They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face > > >> of a guy next to me, broke all his front teeth. When that > > >> happened I lost it. I forgot I was supposed to be getting > > >> the news for all of you and I started yelling at the cops, > > >> "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So > > >> this cop aimed his gun right at me. That was his answer. So > > >> I first put my hands in front of my face because I didn't > > >> want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to hell with it. > > >> I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", > > >> you know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the > > >> bombing in Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, > > >> shoot! Here! Here's the target!" He didn't shoot me. > > >> > > >> I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent > > >> people. They were the most non-violent people I have ever > > >> seen. Even when I was screaming at the cop, this girl came > > >> up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is non-violent." > > >> These people were too much to believe. They must meditate > > >> all the time, I don't know. > > >> > > >> Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is > > >> baloney. Today (Wed.) the protesters were causing absolutely > > >> no "trouble". In downtown the cops had people running who > > >> weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just people > > >> going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The > > >> busses weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to > > >> catch one with a driver who could still see. I begged him to > > >> drive the old lady home - the driver changed his route > > >> especially for her. If you want to find human decency, stay > > >> away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. > > >> They have some. The Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now > > >> he wouldn't know human decency if it came up and bit him. > > >> > > >> So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who > > >> run this country, and they are quite simply scum. There were > > >> people at work, people with babies, they were all getting > > >> gassed because the government would not allow an assembly of > > >> people speaking their minds. It is the same as what happened > > >> in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government > > >> created the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he > > >> says he supports nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber > > >> bullets? And today they outlawed gas masks. They want to > > >> make sure everyone gets his money's worth. > > >> > > >> Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the > > >> residential neighborhoods. People in cafés were getting > > >> gassed and shot at, you could hear it on the windows, bang, > > >> bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street to go to his > > >> house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at > > >> the cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then > > >> this other guys was just crossing the street to go home so > > >> the cops figured, might as well gas him too. People got > > >> gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffeee > > >> shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or > > >> something. > > >> > > >> Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I > > >> mean after all, it's just collateral damage.. > > >> > > >> *** > > >> > > >> Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade > > >> Organization, click on SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW > > >> WORLD ORDER or go to > > >> http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm > > >> > > >> If you would like to browse articles from > > >> Emperors-Clothes.com, click here Or go to: > > >> http://www.emperors-clothes.com > > >> > > >> > >============================================================================ > > >> Delivered-To: moderator for renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org > > >> Delivered-To: moderator for cj@cyberjournal.org > > >> From: intrprtr@prodigy.net > > >> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 18:24:42 -0800 > > >> To: (Recipient list suppressed) > > >> Subject: FW: Hell In Seattle > > >> > > >> {FROM AN OLD-TIME RESIDENT OF THE GREATER SEATTLE AREA: > > >> Thoughts On Witnessing Three Days Of Hell In Seattle} > > >> > > >> -----Forwarded Message----- > > >> > > >> [recipient's name deleted] > > >> > > >> As you, no doubt, are fully aware, I am no friend of anarchy > > >> and civil disorder -- far from it, in fact; but, in the > > >> course of the last several days, even I have had no choice > > >> but to conclude that our local "authorities" clearly > > >> overstepped their bounds. > > >> > > >> The police brutality exhibited by some of our local "boys in > > >> black" (and I purposely say some, since not all of them were > > >> involved ) in Seattle -- especially on Tuesday and Wednesday > > >> -- was (shades of Lenin's "Che-Ka"!!) horrifying, to say the > > >> least. (One of the motive forces that seemingly drives some > > >> such men to become "peace officers" is an inherent sense of > > >> sadism!) > > >> > > >> The last such occasion that springs to mind occurred on the > > >> University of Washington campus (back in 1970, if I recall > > >> the year correctly), when one of my girlfriends was > > >> returning to her dormitory from the U.W.'s undergrad > > >> ("Suzallo") library and was attacked by Seattle's "riot > > >> police," who cracked her skull for "walking on campus." > > >> (Well, how else was she to get back to her dorm from the > > >> library -- fly?!?) > > >> > > >> This week, old people and babies were pepper-sprayed and > > >> gassed indiscriminately; people totally uninvolved in the > > >> protests against the WTO, many of whom were simply trying to > > >> get home from work, were beaten, kicked, and shot with > > >> so-called "rubber" bullets -- you name it... (One man was > > >> kicked in the groin and shot at close range.) > > >> > > >> Many people with legitimate concerns in downtown Seattle > > >> were gratuitously pepper-sprayed by the police, simply > > >> because they happened to be present as the police went by. > > >> (Policemen would turn and shoot streams of pepper-spray into > > >> their faces -- this, after having passed by them, in the > > >> first place!) Even several WTO delegates were pushed around > > >> by the police, believe it or not! > > >> > > >> Those individuals who attempted to assist the fallen were > > >> themselves subjected to police brutality; police "batons" > > >> come raining down on both the people who had collapsed and > > >> on those trying to help them get up. Meanwhile, the police > > >> deliberately pressed their heavy boots down upon the heads > > >> of those on the ground (who were being handcuffed with the > > >> particularly cruel "flexi-cuffs" under the pretext that they > > >> were "resisting"), in order to prevent them from being able > > >> to "move on," as they were being "ordered" by the police > > >> (who then proceeded to gas, pepper-spray and shoot them at > > >> close range with "rubber" bullets in clear cases of > > >> deliberate and unwarranted cruelty). In one case, a woman > > >> fell to the ground and the police then began to shoot > > >> pepper-spray at her and at a person who was attempting to > > >> help her get up! (Media video also showed the police > > >> harassing a just-gassed older woman who was merely trying to > > >> unlock her car so that she could get away from these horrors > > >> and get home!) > > >> > > >> Clouds of tear gas were sent flying into business > > >> establishments, and the people inside were then attacked by > > >> the police as they tried to get out (it having become a > > >> "crime" in Seattle to possess, buy or wear a gas-mask if one > > >> is a civilian). This was all witnessed by [my fiancee] and > > >> myself, watching day-long TV coverage of the events from the > > >> safety of our home. Had we been caught in the "crossfire" of > > >> gas and pepper-spray, we might well have died, under those > > >> circumstances, as you are fully aware, due to our severe > > >> cases of asthma and chemical-sensitivity -- especially, > > >> without gas-masks! > > >> > > >> What is especially disconcerting is that the police were > > >> attacking peaceful protestors, while the anarchistic and > > >> criminal elements were allowed free rein -- almost as if by > > >> collusion with "the powers that be"!? > > >> > > >> So this week, [name deleted], has provided us with a > > >> foretaste of what the "New World Order" holds in store for > > >> us, if it is ever allowed to come fully into its own! The > > >> Gestapo and the "Che-Ka" were merely the "blossoms" -- will > > >> we live to see the "berries"? God knows! > > >> > > >> -- Yura > > >> > > >> > >======================================================================== > > >> cj@cyberjournal.org - a political discussion forum > > >> crafted in Ireland by rkm - (Richard K. Moore) > > >> To subscribe, send any message to cj-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org - an activists forum > > >> To subscribe, send any message to: > > >> renaissance-network-subscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> A public service of "Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance" > > >> cdr@cyberjournal.org http://cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> **-- Non-commercial reposting is encouraged, > > >> but please include the sig up through this paragraph > > >> and retain any internal credits and copyright notices. > > >> Copyrighted materials are posted under "fair-use". > > >> > > >> To see the index of the list archives, send a blank message to: > > >> cj-index@cyberjournal.org or to: > > >> renaissance-network-index@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> To sample the book-in-progress, "Globalization and the > > >> Revolutionary Imperative", see: > > >> http://cyberjournal.org/cdr/gri/gri.html > > >> > > >> Help create the Movement for a Democratic Renaissance! > > >> > > >> A community will evolve only when > > >> the people control their means of communication. > > >> -- Frantz Fanon > > >> > > >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful > > >> committed citizens can change the world, > > >> indeed it's the only thing that ever has. > > >> - Margaret Mead > > >> > > >> . > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cj-unsubscribe@cyberjournal.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: cj-help@cyberjournal.org > > >> > > >> "Do not be discouraged. As your motivation grows more and more vast, > > >> your > > >> capacity for positive qualities will expand too. If you maintain the > > >> constant wish to benefit others, the power to actually do so will come > > >> by > > >> itself, as naturally as water runs downhill" > > >> --Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche > > >> > > >> _________ > > >> The Hunger Site webpage (donate food daily without cost to you to help > > >> end > > >> world starvation): http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > >command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > >Organic Farming Research Foundation > >P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > >ph: (831) 426-6606 fax: (831) 426-6670 > >www.ofrf.org > > ______________________________________________________ From london@metalab.unc.edu Mon Dec 13 19:28:17 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16710 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18680 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:07:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18592 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA17558; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:04:21 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id IAA06219; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:31:39 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912140031.IAA06219@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 14 Dec 99 07:11:12 Subject: Re: GMO labeling To: guldann@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 633 >Well who pays for the testing I suppose can not be ignored but that was not >my question. My question is is it now legal for a company, who is telling >the truth, to label their food GM free? Frankly the extra cost may just be >worth it, same as paying higher prices for organics (which includes the >price of testing and certifying). Buying organics usually means you are >avoiding food grown in a manner you don't approve of and had no control over >its inception. Beth In the case of genetically-engineered rBGH, Monsanto was reported to have threatened to sue those who would label their milk rBGH free, according to a documentary made by two journalists who were then sacked from their work. Perhaps, others know the details better. Who should be required to label is important because it will have far-reaching consequences on business viability, and also because it reflects a society's "default mode", or "commonly-preferred" practice and what it considers to stray from such practice. Look at the organic vs. chemical production. Current laws in effect make chemical production the "default" and organic the "exceptional", which requires organic labelling and all the bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo it requires. This makes organics more expensive and provides a built-in bias in favor of chemically-laced food. If the opposite was done instead: there is no need to label if you are chemical-free and you are required to label and go through all the bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo if you use chemicals, then the price of organics would go down, and of chemically-produced food would go up. This would then make organics more competitive, having become the "default". The biotech industry (see Dale's arguments) is maneuvering to put GE-free in the same boat as organics, and GE products in the same "commonly-preferred", default status as chemically-produced food. If successful, they'll make GE-free products bear all the costs of labeling and segregation. This will mire GE-free products in bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo and make them more expensive, and help ensure the market domination of GE products. The strategy worked with chemically-grown food. We should learn our lesson and not allow it to happen with GE food. Labelling should be legally required of GE food producers, and purely voluntary for GE-free food. Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 13 22:03:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18281 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24771 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:42:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24707 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD28.mco.net [209.167.186.48]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA09140; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:42:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3855ADEB.1585AA30@real.on.ca> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:39:40 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: "'Hook Family'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: GMO labeling References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006E@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 634 Dale, you say it is expensive to segregate "commodities".Your choice of words detail the problem. People do not eat commodities, they eat food. It has an emotional and cultural connection for them, something the conventional food business has forgot. Agri-culture. I have never seen a pink truck on the road. Why, because the truck people have figured out the people do not want to buy them. Emotionally, the truck buying public does not want them. Perhaps the food business should listen to their customers. They are always right, no matter how you think they are wrong. Gary Elliott "Wilson, Dale" wrote: > Beth, > > > I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free > > of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and > > really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. > > Food processors are very frightened of labeling. First, it is expensive to > segregate commodities. Second, it is not clear what GMO-free really means. > For example, if soybean oil is made from transgenic soybeans, but contains > no DNA or protein, is it GMO-free? What if a conventional load of corn > contains a few kernels of GMO corn? What if you find a RR soybean in your > bag of conventional rice? Also, does GMO include things developed with > molecular techniques that are not transgenic (markers, mutations, > duplications)? > > Finally, public opinion seems to be highly unstable right now. Vastly > different responses to surveys occur depending on how questions are worded. > So the value of GMO-free commodities is poorly defined in the market. But > this will change. > > Probably, some entrepreneurs will begin marketing "GMO-free" foods at a > premium price, taking labeling into their own hands as it were. To be > reliably free (that is, totally free) of GMO might be pretty expensive. If > labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will > probably say: "May contain transgenic material." > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From t-om@efn.org Mon Dec 13 23:34:28 1999 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19281 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from garcia.efn.org (t-om@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10880; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (t-om@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07561; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: t-om owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: "tom f. seaman" To: Kelly Fitzgerald cc: lauraclose@hotmail.com, jammich624@aol.com, brennafitz30@hotmail.com, cmarieb@mcps.k12.mt.us, cdreamer@voicenet.com, mrenee76@hotmail.com, t-om@efn.org, research@ofrf.org, cj@cyberjournal.org, cdr@cyberjournal, renaissance-network@cyberjournal, rkmoore@iol.ie, intrprtr@prodigy.net, owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@titan.oit.unc.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu, karlvasa@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991208212904.82828.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 635 there was one thing i forgot on the forward i sent a few hours ago... the tear-gas they were using on wednesday was not standard issue... every woman who got too much of it started bleeding, menstral cycle kick-started no matter where they were in their cycle... i hope it stops like a normal cycle...this i heard from many womyn... AND, i heard, there was a pregnant woman who "miscarried"... i.e. the gas gave her an unasked for abortion! i heard this from many seperate sources, but did not meet her, i am not positive it happened, but believe it did. so much for the myth of no-one died i remember a quote i heard somewhere.., "the pure is powerless in the face of the impure. only the sacred vanquishes it." please do not go into the "us versus them/good=bad/pure=impure" polarity. love is sacred, forgivness is sacred, they both heal and teach. we all need it, the police and their bosses are seeing that their way is insupportable, they are vomiting in the middle of their healing crisis, they need our love now even more, when just a bit more can help them drop their fears and turn them into decent, careing humans! this is the last gasp of those who need to manipulate out of fear. they see their way ending and are freaking out. there is no more room for them to shit in their own bed with-out cleaning it up. now is when we learn to love and care for each other, or we all die in eco-catastrophe, one way or another... and i believe in alivness, i believe the tide has turned, we just have to keep careing instead of blaming or fearing... the more we can forgive and care, the more of us their will be who survive the poisoning of our world, and the smaller the mess we have to clean-up! t-om From t-om@efn.org Mon Dec 13 23:34:31 1999 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19285 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from garcia.efn.org (t-om@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10880; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (t-om@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07561; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: t-om owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: "tom f. seaman" To: Kelly Fitzgerald cc: lauraclose@hotmail.com, jammich624@aol.com, brennafitz30@hotmail.com, cmarieb@mcps.k12.mt.us, cdreamer@voicenet.com, mrenee76@hotmail.com, t-om@efn.org, research@ofrf.org, cj@cyberjournal.org, cdr@cyberjournal, renaissance-network@cyberjournal, rkmoore@iol.ie, intrprtr@prodigy.net, owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, london@titan.oit.unc.edu, london@metalab.unc.edu, karlvasa@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Fwd:"Designer" Riots & Misinformation in Seattle (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991208212904.82828.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 636 there was one thing i forgot on the forward i sent a few hours ago... the tear-gas they were using on wednesday was not standard issue... every woman who got too much of it started bleeding, menstral cycle kick-started no matter where they were in their cycle... i hope it stops like a normal cycle...this i heard from many womyn... AND, i heard, there was a pregnant woman who "miscarried"... i.e. the gas gave her an unasked for abortion! i heard this from many seperate sources, but did not meet her, i am not positive it happened, but believe it did. so much for the myth of no-one died i remember a quote i heard somewhere.., "the pure is powerless in the face of the impure. only the sacred vanquishes it." please do not go into the "us versus them/good=bad/pure=impure" polarity. love is sacred, forgivness is sacred, they both heal and teach. we all need it, the police and their bosses are seeing that their way is insupportable, they are vomiting in the middle of their healing crisis, they need our love now even more, when just a bit more can help them drop their fears and turn them into decent, careing humans! this is the last gasp of those who need to manipulate out of fear. they see their way ending and are freaking out. there is no more room for them to shit in their own bed with-out cleaning it up. now is when we learn to love and care for each other, or we all die in eco-catastrophe, one way or another... and i believe in alivness, i believe the tide has turned, we just have to keep careing instead of blaming or fearing... the more we can forgive and care, the more of us their will be who survive the poisoning of our world, and the smaller the mess we have to clean-up! t-om From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 02:33:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20608 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06269 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:17:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA06242 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMP009I5YWBXY@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:17:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:30:50 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Robert Cannard/FDA GMO hearings To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id CAA06257 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 Howdy, all-- This was in today's /SF Chronicle/. TTMI. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Farmer Will Testify at FDA Hearing on Altered Foods Pamela J. Podger, Chronicle Staff Writer Monday, December 13, 1999 Organic farmer Robert Cannard tosses a handful of lemon verbena in a pot, brews the tea and explains his quest. On this rain-rinsed day, the fields outside are sparkling with endive and eggplant. Twice a week, a truck from Chez Panisse in Berkeley trundles up for vegetables and drops off kitchen scraps for compost. For years, the rhythm of his days has revolved around his 20-acre spread in the Sonoma Valley. But Cannard's spadework these days is in a new venture: politics. He's digging into democratic dirt, hoping an initiative requiring labels on genetically altered foods will qualify for the November 2000 ballot. Several thousand signatures have been returned to the Glen Ellen post office already. Although genetically altered crops, such as corn and soybeans, are grown mostly in the Midwest, the dissent has also taken root in California. Without labeling, people cannot know whether the corn syrup in their colas or the soybean in their tofu came from genetically altered plants. Cannard is expected to testify today in Oakland at a daylong public Food and Drug Administration hearing on the merits and drawbacks of these foods. The session will be at the Elihu Harris State Office Building, 1515 Clay St. Genetically modified foods have given rise to protests in Japan, and stringent European labeling requirements effectively ban genetically altered food from the United States. But the Alliance for Better Foods, a coalition of 40 food organizations including the American Farm Bureau Federation, says genetically modified foods will promote greater nutrition and less reliance on chemical pesticides and could go far in combatting global hunger. They envision bananas laced with oral vaccines, so shots can be avoided, or vegetables enhanced with more beta carotene. Already, the Rockefeller Foundation is working on rice with more vitamin A to counter nutritional deficiencies in developing nations. Existing federal regulations do not require food labels to describe the plant development process by which food is produced. ``There is no doubt that consumer attitudes will ultimately be a big force in this debate. But other than that, would it do us any good to steer that debate toward fear? That is what labeling would do,'' said farm federation spokesman Mace Thornton. ``The labeling of a food product that scientists and our government agencies say is safe would do nothing more than raise unwarranted fears in the general public.'' Working just a few miles from the prized patch of land where the dapper Luther Burbank proved his wizardry with new hybrid strains, Cannard is cultivating caution. He wants to ensure that the natural order isn't destroyed by unleashed and untested forces. ``Luther Burbank would think (genetic engineering) was crazy. He knew how to look at the natural vibration of plants,'' said Cannard, 46. ``When you start changing the nature of the beast, mixing the genetic organisms from other plants, then you are changing the spirit of the plants. Luther Burbank was into the spirit of the plant and not just the superficial.'' According to Cannard, crossbred strains or hybrid species don't muck with a plant's genetic material, but work with the willingness of the plant to adapt and change. But genetic engineering alters the natural immune system and growth of plants, introducing foreign fungus or laboratory DNA to make plants poisonous or unpalatable to pests, disease or weeds. The effect on insects or people with allergies or sensitive digestive tracts is unknown, Cannard said. ``Heirloom'' crops like his -- older varieties that more closely resemble the ancient strains --may be at risk from the windblown pollen of genetically altered plants. Caterpillars of Monarch butterflies have died after consuming pollen from genetically altered corn species that contain toxins for pests, including the European corn borer, according to the journal Nature. If genetically modified foods are labeled, Cannard said, people can vote with their wallets and let market forces dictate whether farmers use the altered seeds. ``We're not questioning the religious, moral or scientific merits of genetically engineered foods but are giving people the opportunity to know,'' Cannard said. ``We're not saying genetic engineering is bad, like some sort of addictive drug, but it needs to be thoroughly studied and the effect on nature understood before it is released,'' he added. ``If these were drugs, it would take 20 years before release. Drugs affect small quantities of people, but food affects many more people on the mass market.'' His all-volunteer campaign has harnessed the power of the Internet with a Web site explaining the scope and purpose of the proposed initiative. If successful, this campaign would be the first to qualify an initiative using the Internet, according to Alfie Charles at the secretary of state's office. The Internet helps hold down printing and mailing costs, giving people access to the petitions without the expense of hiring signature gatherers. Cannard has donated about $5,000 to the drive, and petitions are sprouting up at farmer's markets, health-food stores and organic-food groups. By March 6, signatures from 419,260 registered voters are needed to place the initiative on the ballot. While a political novice when it comes to initiatives, Cannard said the effort is worthwhile to educate people about genetically engineered foods. ``The initiatives are an expression of the population. People may not be aware of a potential problem and the caution needed for genetically modified food stock,'' Cannard said. ``This effort will raise awareness, no matter what.'' People interested in the petition can write to California Right to Know/Genetically Engineered Food Labeling Initiative, P.O. Box. 520, Glen Ellen, CA, 95442; call (707) 939-8316 or visit the Web page at http://www.calrighttoknow.org ©1999 San Francisco Chronicle Page A17 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 04:14:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21161 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 04:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05172 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:49:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05163 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-12.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.12]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:48:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:45:32 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17114.991214@acnet.net> To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: do-it-yourself breeding In-reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006B@vela.phibred.com> References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006B@vela.phibred.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 638 Hi Dale, Monday, December 13, 1999, 7:58:10 AM, you wrote: WD> It used to be that any bright, industrious person could breed WD> competitive pigs or corn. It would follow then, that now they can't (it used to be, Dale says). WD> The fact that this may no longer be the case, is threatening, just WD> as the automobile industry is threatening if you want to build WD> your own cars. Corn and hogs grow in the ground. Cars are put together and run on highways. There are a couple of other differences if you stop and think about. WD> I believe the view of agriculture as some special bastion of WD> individuality and self-sufficiency, is based on a romantic myth, WD> of which real farmers rarely partake. Sure would like to meet one of those non-individualistic and dependent real farmers Dale knows. WD> I still believe that if you were more familiar with the breeding WD> enterprise, you too would see it as engineering rather than WD> discovery. Ever hear about what familiarity breeds? You imply that one either sees it as engineering as Dale does or aren't familiar with breeding. Just Dale is. WD> But you are right about the change from selection to WD> recombination. WD> Protection of varieties began a long time ago, when WD> breeding became engineering. It's become a fact then. Wonder if there's a date for that. WD> There is no doubt in anyones mind, Doubt dispersed by Dale Decree. WD> that protection of varieties (and musical scores) has led to an WD> enormous amount of new composition. So when breeding became engineering, protection became recombination. All very pat. Dale's got it all figured out. WD> Red-baiting? Fuck....I'll bait who ever I want. Uh oh. Dale has gotten very macho of late, and forgotten both his netiquette and saneteer camaraderie. WD> So, we agree that the issue of Socialism (private vs public WD> control of the means of production) is THE central issue? Good. Agreement by Dale Decree. WD> I think that is an argument we should pursue. But I don't have time WD> to pursue it this morning. I just got back from the ASTA, and I WD> have a huge amount of mail to open. Matt, maybe if you offer to help him open his mail, he'll debate what he want's to with you when he wants to. >> the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the discussion over GMO's >> and the patenting of life-forms is probably the place to begin >> rethinking where this somewhere is, WD> Better jumping in points might be agricultural populism of the WD> 20's and 30's, the history of agricultural collectivization, or WD> the adequacy of Marxist analysis. Pase issues. I would have thought it was farming: Soil ecology, nutritional content of food, the elimination or radical reduction of contaminants and carcinogens from the biosphere, companion planting, calculating the environmental costs of distinct agricultural production systems, the balance inherent in biologically evolved systems and the reverse in re-engineered ones (does this relate to the motive behind the re-engineering? And does that motive help one to maintain a hospitable demeanor on sanet)? WD> Unless we hear loud cries against pursuing this thread on Sanet, let's WD> debate (nice and slow) Socialism in the agricultural context. (after you've opened your mail, of course). But let's not. said softly DH To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 09:43:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24289 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10275 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:15:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgate1a.bridge.com (firewall-user@mailgate1a.ext.bridge.com [167.76.159.72]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10155 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by mailgate1a.bridge.com; id IAA05432; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:13:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1srv.bridge.com(167.76.56.34) by mailgate1a.bridge.com via smap (V4.2) id xma005397; Tue, 14 Dec 99 08:12:53 -0600 Received: from eximcx1.bridge.com (eximcx1.bridge.com [167.76.56.27]) by mail1srv.bridge.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21909 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:15:04 -0600 (CST) Received: by eximcx1.bridge.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:15:04 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Fulton, John" To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: GMO labeling Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:16:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 I understand your concern about nutrition labeling. The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned, but again, should it be compelled? If you as a consumer want to buy products with detailed content lists, you'll buy only those products. But (in an admittedly extreme case) should a street vendor have to pay a laboratory to analyze each batch of his or her bagels? And then pass that cost on to a largely indifferent public? Regulations have a direct cost. Each of us has a choice to buy those products we want--and in the process, create economic niches. But why compel others to pay those costs? For regulators, the task is even tougher. Any rule that adds to the cost of living means that families, especially those on the economic margins, have to make tough choices about safety, education and so forth. We need to be extremely careful lest regulations do more harm, in unintended ways, than they do good. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bluestem Associates [SMTP:bluestem@webserf.net] > Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 6:03 PM > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE: GMO labeling > > On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:37:56 -0600, Fulton, John wrote: > > > I'd hate to mandate that everyone pay more for labeling that, at > >present, concerns only a minority. > > We already pay for a lot of labelling that concerns only a minority. > Look at the 'Nutrition Facts' on virtually any food sold in the States. > Please tell me, who cares about the protein content of mineral water? > More useful on the tequila with the worm in it ! Those nutrient content > tests you have to buy from Covance (or their competitors) don't come > cheap. > > More disturbing is to hear the government saying (on the one hand) 'We > shouldn't label for GMOs because it would confuse consumers.' yet on > the other hand to remember that the government had to be pressured to > include 'calories from fat' on those same Nutrition Fact labels. The > same FDA folks suggesting that consumers aren't sophisticated enough to > understand a GMO label felt that those same consumers were > sophisticated enough to know that fat contains 9 Calories per gram, and > to multiply the number of grams of fat times 9 and divide the result by > the total number of Calories. They flat out refused to do the logical > thing, which is to have a straightforward listing of the percentage of > Calories from fat. > > The simple fact of the matter is that the food industry vetoed it. So > now the US has the most complete, most complicated nutrition labelling > in the world, for our 'unsophisticated' consumers. Best labels, but we > are the most obese, most poorly nourished nation in the world. > Obviously only a few of us pay attention to those labels. > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 09:43:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24324 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12595 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:17:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12522 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:15:25 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:14:57 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:14:55 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0074@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Gary Elliott'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: De-commodification (was: GMO labeling) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:14:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 640 Gary, > Dale, you say it is expensive to segregate "commodities". > Your choice of words detail the problem. People do not eat > commodities, they eat food. If you had 1000 tons of wheat in your backyard, you too would probably think of it differently than the granola in your breakfast bowl. The seed industry would be quite happy if grains were de-commodified. We would like to see the identity of our genetic products preserved, because the users of the grain would be willing to pay for the quality and health attributes we are developing. Probably, identity preservation will become common, but the transition is difficult. > It has an emotional and cultural connection for them, something > the conventional food business has forgot. Agri-culture. Not really. The processors and repackagers haven't forgot. The big grain handlers sell to the food companies, who try to connect with consumers. > Perhaps the food business should listen to their customers. > They are always right, no matter how you think they are wrong. I agree completely. But right now, it isn't clear what the customers want regarding transgenic foods. This controversy will facilitate de-commodification. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 10:26:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25228 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28431 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:00:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28397 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:58:05 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:57:02 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:57:01 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0075@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Roberto Verzola'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: GM-free organic fusion (was: GMO labeling) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:57:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 Roberto, > Who should be required to label is important because it will > have far-reaching consequences on business viability, and also > because it reflects a society's "default mode", or "commonly- > preferred" practice and what it considers to stray from such > practice. You seem to view all this as highly regulated and planned, but it is evolving in a chaotic manner. I don't think anyone should be required to label things as organic or otherwise. If someone *wants* to make special claims for their products, there may be a role for the government to regulate the meaning of certain claims. > Look at the organic vs. chemical production. Current laws in effect > make chemical production the "default" and organic the "exceptional", > which requires organic labelling and all the bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo > it requires. I think you are mistaken. There are no laws that make use of pesticides and fertilizers (or transgenics for that matter) the standard practice, at least in the US. The choices that farmers make do this. > This makes organics more expensive and provides a built-in bias in > favor of chemically-laced food. Probably the low volumes are what make organic food more expensive. > If the opposite was done instead: there is no need to label if you > are chemical-free and you are required to label and go through all > the bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo if you use chemicals, then the price of > organics would go down, and of chemically-produced food would go up. > This would then make organics more competitive Isn't all this market-driven? People who feel strongly about "organic" food are willing to pay more to get special food. Organic labeling is a marketing tool. The "bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo" is being demanded by the users of that tool, "organic" farmers and "organic" brokers. > The biotech industry (see Dale's arguments) is maneuvering to put > GE-free in the same boat as organics, and GE products in the same > "commonly-preferred", default status as chemically-produced food. Naw, I think the seed industry, though real good at breeding, has botched any "maneuvering." People who feel strongly about transgenics may be willing to pay to avoid them. Most people don't care. The market forces in this labeling issue are inescapable, and analogous to the (rest of?) organic labeling. In fact, this all represents a big opportunity for you "organic" folks. You can whip up a bigger market and achieve a better economy of scale. GE-free foods SHOULD be in the same boat as "organics". They should be one component of "organic" foods. Why fight it? Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 10:37:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25506 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03286 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:12:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coyote.rain.org (coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03159 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sals (maxmp-129.rain.org [198.68.144.129]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC7E11DD24; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:11:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006401bf4645$8c4ff000$819044c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: Cc: References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A006E@vela.phibred.com> Subject: Re: GMO labeling Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:11:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 I would like to see a good label on GM foods not one that says this product may contain GM . there are so many and they are all different and the label IMHO should state what GM is being used. I would like to know that this milk came from cows injected with a genetically engineered growth hormone HBST or what ever or these beans were grown from a plant that was gene engineered with a virus that kills whatever or this bean was genetically engineered with a common cold fighter or a loose weight gene or what ever. because they can take a gene from anything and add it to anything for a label to be good and make the company proud and most of all inform the people that eat it ,it should tell what the GM is being used on the label. also I would like to see any GM product that may contaminate a organic grower to be stopped. this show that it is out in the environment and can not be controlled. CAN NOT BE Controlled is the key phrase. if it can not be controlled its chemical trespass. check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Hook Family'" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:16 AM Subject: RE: GMO labeling > Beth, > > > I was wondering this. Why can't products say they are free > > of GM. And of course I mean they have actually tested and > > really are free. Or are they "forbidden" to be truthful. > > Food processors are very frightened of labeling. First, it is expensive to > segregate commodities. Second, it is not clear what GMO-free really means. > For example, if soybean oil is made from transgenic soybeans, but contains > no DNA or protein, is it GMO-free? What if a conventional load of corn > contains a few kernels of GMO corn? What if you find a RR soybean in your > bag of conventional rice? Also, does GMO include things developed with > molecular techniques that are not transgenic (markers, mutations, > duplications)? > > Finally, public opinion seems to be highly unstable right now. Vastly > different responses to surveys occur depending on how questions are worded. > So the value of GMO-free commodities is poorly defined in the market. But > this will change. > > Probably, some entrepreneurs will begin marketing "GMO-free" foods at a > premium price, taking labeling into their own hands as it were. To be > reliably free (that is, totally free) of GMO might be pretty expensive. If > labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will > probably say: "May contain transgenic material." > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 11:55:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27298 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03684 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03659 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26493 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27242 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:22:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:22:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: composting agricultural waste with eelgrass Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:26:37 -0000 From: Sarah Maynard To: permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu Cc: g.deffune@wye.ac.uk Hello i am working for an organisation in Greece that is composting eel grass with agricultural waste. Have you any information that you could send me about this composting method and other methods in general Kind Regards Sarah Maynard Katelios Group, Kefalonia 27 Leys Avenue Desborough Northants NN14 2PY To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 12:58:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28452 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06452 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:34:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from exnet.iastate.edu (root@exnet.iastate.edu [129.186.107.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06366 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from Rich (pirog.leopold.iastate.edu [129.186.242.235]) by exnet.iastate.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA04967 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:34:36 -0600 Message-Id: <4.1.19991214112849.00c4b290@exnet.iastate.edu> X-Sender: leopold@exnet.iastate.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:34:30 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Richard Pirog Subject: Executive Director - Iowa Environmental Council Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 644 Was asked to forward this to sanet-mg: Linda Appelgate to leave Iowa Environmental Council; new Executive Director sought Linda D. Appelgate has announced that she will be stepping down as Executive Director of the Council June 1, 2000. After five years of leadership with the Council, Linda has decided to fulfill a lifelong dream and apply to the Peace Corps or another form of international public service. The Job Announcement follows. Contact Tommi Makila, Office Manager, at 515/244-1194, with questions. Also, visit the Councils website for more about our young and successful coalition for Iowas environment. JOB ANNOUNCEMENT Position title: Executive Director, Iowa Environmental Council Reports to: Board of Directors Salary range: $40,000-50,000 Status: Permanent, full-time salaried position Closing date: January 24, 2000 Starting date: May 1, 2000 Qualifications * A personal and professional history of commitment to the goals of environmental quality and sustainability * Ability to work effectively in environmental policy and strategic decision-making * Ability and desire to lobby in state legislature * Minimum of five years relevant experience with environmental/natural resource policy, administration, and fundraising * Ability to develop and nurture partnerships with diverse groups * Strong analytical and communications skills * Ability to express an organizational vision and to provide leadership in pursuit of that vision * Bachelors degree or equivalent; advanced degree preferred Position responsibilities A. Policy development and advocacy * Collaborate with Council members to implement the Councils strategic plan and program strategies * Communicate, promote, and implement the Councils priorities and positions on key environmental issues. This responsibility includes lobbying and other forms of advocacy and work with Iowa media B. Financial management and fundraising * Develop and implement effective strategies to ensure fiscal stability and program development, including developing funder relations for grants, major donors, corporate giving, and membership * Develop and execute a plan for raising funds adequate to meet the Councils short- and long-term needs C. Community and member relations * Collaborate with Council members, community leaders, policy makers, media, and other environmental groups, where appropriate, to achieve Council goals and policy objectives D. Management * Ensure effective use of organizational resources to carry out program objectives * Supervise staff, contractors, and volunteers. These supervisory responsibilities include the full range of managerial responsibilities, including hiring, motivating, communicating with, fostering development of, and evaluating personnel * Provide organizational leadership to create a positive workplace atmosphere * Provide organizational leadership to encourage the accomplishment of organizational objectives E. Relationship with Board of Directors * Implement board policy * Keep board informed of progress and challenges in policy development, financial management, community relations, and management * Provide effective support to the board, including development of materials and processes for board recruitment, orientation, and development Benefits * Full health, life, dental, and long-term disability insurance * Fifteen days paid vacation first two years of employment; 20 days beginning with the third year of employment * Eight paid holidays and two floating holidays * Retirement plan Council background The Iowa Environmental Council is a five-year-old nonprofit organization working to improve Iowas environment. The Council, working with its 58 member organizations and more than 700 individuals, has played a prominent role in: * enhancing professional water monitoring * jump-starting citizen water monitoring * protecting groundwater from contamination through agricultural drainage wells * working for the sustainable use of livestock manure * strengthening the network of environmental organizations and influence in Iowa. The Council currently focuses primarily on water quality issues, including a continued lead role in increasing both professional and volunteer water monitoring, and a campaign to clean up our impaired waters. Agricultural policy also is a major focus, and our goals include achieving safer manure management practices and reductions in the use of pesticides. The Council uses a consensus process to identify focus areas, based on an established set of criteria. Issues that meet those criteria must: involve a concern of significant environmental impact, be of statewide importance, be within the unique capability of the Council to address, offer opportunities for working with other coalitions, and other criteria. The Council also works to build and maintain a strong environmental coalition in Iowa. This includes building partnerships and networks, and delivering valuable member services such as bulletins, fact sheets, legislative updates, and newsletters. The Councils annual budget is around $300,000. This revenue primarily is generated from foundation grants, membership fees, and corporate contributions. In addition to the Executive Director, the Councils staff includes a full-time office manager, full-time research director, part-time communications director, and student interns. Application procedures Send a letter and resume by January 24, 2000, to: Search Committee, Iowa Environmental Council, 711 East Locust, Des Moines, IA 50309. Visit the website at for more information about the Iowa Environmental Council. ---------------------- Richard Pirog Education Coordinator Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture 209 Curtiss Hall Iowa State University Ames, Iowa 50011-3120 515 294-1854 FAX: 515 294-9696 e-mail: leopold@exnet.iastate.edu Web page URL: http://www.leopold.iastate.edu/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 13:37:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29038 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20896 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:07:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20857 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP110.dialsprint.net [158.252.94.70]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08000 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:07:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3856877D.E9BEC05@sprintmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:07:58 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: GMO labeling Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EF09B125194EB1B140FEF94D" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EF09B125194EB1B140FEF94D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The whole "labeling is too expensive" argument is a smokescreen. Years ago, food processors argued that adding nutritional labeling to processed foods was impossible because of expense. They even testified before Congress that it was impossible. Then Mr. Lefavre, head of the cooperative alliance, testified that the Co-op label had been ding it for a couple of years already and brought a can of Co-op label food to show the Congressional committee. This argument that it's cost prohibitive and will have the greatest impact on the small companies is ludicrous. When did the giant food corporations start to worry about the smaller companies? Seems to me they've been trying to gobble them up or put them out of business. And separating GMOs from non-GMOs? Let me use our waste water systems as an analogy. Our cities have one pipeline for residential and industrial waste water that leads to a waste water treatment facility. the problem with reclaiming our waste for fertilizer lies in the fact that industry dumps heavy metals into this waste stream To go back and separate these 2 systems is cost prohibitive- right now. if we had planned and put in 2 systems to start, the problem wouldn't exist. We are at the beginning of our introduction of GMOs into the food "pipeline." It would be much easier now to set up a system for separation now than years down the road. Let the companies who say that GMOs will rescue the world from hunger, obviate the use of chemicals and make all farmers rich lay out the money for the infrastructure. And I love the analogy of the pink pickups. It also reminds me of when the American consumers wanted smaller, gas efficient cars. US auto companies responded by continuing to make big, gas-guzzling tanks and spending their money through advertising, trying to convince us we wanted them, instead of for redesign and retooling. this resulted in Foreign auto companies taking over the majority of the US auto market. You'd think that the food and ag suppliers would be smart enough to learn from others' mistakes. Or are they just huge dinosaurs that keep plodding along and try to justify their path towards a precipice rather than taking the necessary action to veer off. Oh well, it's not all bad. The more they try to shove what we don't want down our throats (literally), the more they open up markets for small, locally marketing farmers. I guess we owe them a big thank you. But thanking them may confuse them even more. Alex --------------EF09B125194EB1B140FEF94D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="waldenfarm.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Alex McGregor Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="waldenfarm.vcf" begin:vcard n:; x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 x-mozilla-cpt:;6976 end:vcard --------------EF09B125194EB1B140FEF94D-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 13:49:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29259 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00785 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00770 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28931 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29168 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Source for New Zealand-type electric fence charger needed. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 Can anyone recommend specific brands of New Zealand-type electric fence chargers to use for deer control? I need the model that runs off a battery that can be recharged with a trickle charger or a solar array. A 3 joule model is the minimum capacity required. What are recommended mail order sources? Many thanks, Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 14:38:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00482 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15141 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:05:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15085 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:05:25 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.148]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:05:21 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991214130521.007d0c20@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:05:21 -0600 To: Mark , Subject: FDA testimony Headliner Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 647 Mark, I think you have a winner in the using the computer error code as a headliner for your article on FDA hearings. It really strikes a cord for those of us who have to fight with that excuse for an operating system. I can see it now, a "blue screen of death" colored poster WTO - System Failure Abort and Retry or FDA's GMO Regulations This program has preformed an illegal act. Continue Abort Warning: If you continue your freedom to choose will be lost. Click for Details You get the idea. This idea might be good fodder for the Adbusters group in Canada who make spoof ads. See http://www.adbusters.org. You have a golden PR idea here and regardless of your feelings towards PR, spin and doublespeak, the post-Seattle PR war has just begun. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 15:10:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00979 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06220 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:50:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06215 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from 129.2.68.82 (aglifesurge-82.umd.edu [129.2.68.82]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02392; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:50:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385659A3.7D11@wam.umd.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:53:01 +0000 From: Valerie Berton Organization: SARE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: vberton@wam.umd.edu Subject: National CSA directory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 648 New Directory Links Farmers, Consumers in Food Partnerships Since it began in the 1980s, Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) has grown to include some 1,000 farms across the U.S. In a unique arrangement, people buy “shares” in CSA farms in exchange for weekly supplies of fresh products. It’s good for farmers, too. They receive a fair, steady source of income and a chance to learn more about what their customers like. To tap into an increasing demand from consumers for fresh food alternatives, USDA’s Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN) in November assembled a list of CSA farms nationwide. Available in print as well as on the World Wide Web, the list of more than 450 farms offers names and contact information for CSA operations in almost every state. As part of USDA’s sustainable agriculture program, which promotes a food system that is profitable for farmers, environmentally sound and good for communities, SAN created the list because sharing the expenses -- and the bountiful harvests -- of local farms appeals to consumers. “Given the growing interest in eating good, nutritious fresh food, we wanted to provide a convenient source of information about community supported agriculture,” says Jill Auburn, director of USDA’s Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program, which funds SAN. “CSA provides a great opportunity for the producers and consumers of our food to gain all sorts of benefits -- from fair wages to fresh food to on-farm learning experiences -- because they live near each other.” To access the new CSA list, see www.sare.org/san/csa/index.htm, where you can search by state. Farmers and consumers can receive lists of CSA farms in their states by writing to CSA/CSREES, 1400 Independence Ave., S.W., Stop 2207, Washington, DC 20250-2207. Organizations can request a free copy of the printed CSA directory at the same address. (Please specify whether you want a directory or a state list in your request.) SAN collaborated with the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC) at USDA’s National Agricultural Library and the Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service (CSREES), as well as many nonprofit organizations to create the national CSA list. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 15:46:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01514 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18627 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:19:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1401.mail.yahoo.com (web1401.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18621 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10673 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 1999 20:12:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19991214201204.10672.qmail@web1401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.23.217] by web1401.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:12:04 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:12:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: CIA Y2K Testimony: Regional & Sector Overview, Impact, Implications & Challenges To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 649 December 14, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President & Executive Director, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE OFFICER FOR SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY PROVIDES A SNAPSHOT OF THE CURRENT STATE OF INTERNATIONAL PREPAREDNESS FOR Y2K, REGIONAL & SECTOR OVERVIEW, IMPACT, IMPLICATIONS & CHALLENGES FOREIGN PREPAREDNESS FOR Y2K Statement for the Record: House Internal Relations Committee Lawrence K. Gershwin, National Intelligence Officer for Science and Technology http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/gershwin_testimony_102199.html In an effort to increase awareness of potential international risk factors, humanitarian concerns and need for contingency planning for the Year 2000 Conversion, Humanitarian Resource Institute maintains the Global Y2K Infrastructure Risks Web Site: http://www.humanitarian.net/y2keconomic.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 17:21:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03177 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13898 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:03:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from schilling.ucdavis.edu (schilling.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13798 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from Liebhardt (ars97.ucdavis.edu [169.237.82.97]) by schilling.ucdavis.edu (8.9.3/UCD3.14.4) with SMTP id OAA18962 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:03:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912142203.OAA18962@schilling.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: fzliebha@mailbox.ucdavis.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:08:48 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Bill Liebhardt Subject: GMO labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 650 When we buy any product we are not buying the product but the perceived benefit. Think about anything you buy or would like to buy and it is the benefits you really are thinking about and thats the reason you make the purchase. Now ask the question-why doesn't the bio tech industry want labeling? I would suggest that the reason is that most of the products they have brought on line have no perceived benefits and may actually have negative factors associated with them to the ultimate consumer. So when that is the case they fight labeling because they do not want an informed public being able to make that choice. Let's look at bovine growth hormone sold by Monsanto. They did everything possible with FDA help to keep people in the dark(The mushroom complex) They fed us a lot of horse manure and kept us in the dark as much as possible. There is absolutely no benefit to drinking milk with the artificial bovine growth hormone. In fact there are reasons why you would not want to drink it with respect to social and environmental issues. From a health standpoint there are potential risks. Harvard based studies has shown that levels of IGF-1 influences the risk of getting breast and prostrate cancer. Levels of IGF-1 in normal milk are 1-9 nanograms/ml and with rbgh is 1-13. Women with high levels of IGF-1 are 7X more likely to get breast cancer than women with low levels and in men it is 4X more prostrate cancer. So you can see why Monsanto does not want an informed public on this issue. When bio tech products benefit the consumer it will be easy to separate the products, foods or commodities. For example suppose that some food could eliminate Alzheimer and could do it at a very reasonable price. I do not think we would hear that it is too expensive to segregate. Suppose for example that Pioneer was able to genetically engineer corn that had the same effect as Viagra on men. Suppose also that there were no other problems, no side effects and no environmental problems. Suppose also that 25 g of corn flakes provided the effect and it cost only $2.00. Do you think Pioneer would say it is too expensive to separate? The obvious answer is a big NO. And why would that be the case? Because it would be in their interest to segregate and it would be beneficial and profitable to them. I know this maybe an outrageous example but it gets the point(no pun intended) across. Sleep on that one. Bill Liebhardt To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 17:34:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03314 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07049 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06880 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu (franc.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.2]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09239 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.120.215.247] (danr247.ucdavis.edu [128.120.215.247]) by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.9.3/UCD3.14.4) with ESMTP id NAA18636; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:49:41 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1266912916==_ma============" X-Sender: kelleher@mailbox.ucdavis.edu Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:11:27 -0800 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, wsare-ext@ucdavis.edu, westernsawg@onenw.org, jfawcett@eskimo.com, newsletter@reeusda.gov, caeseditor@agdean.ucdavis.edu, davidz@ncatfyv.uark.edu, leocenter@iastate.edu, hawiaa@access.digex.net, gabriele.kassner@ucop.edu, brad.fisher@usda.gov, Beth-Dethlefsen@nacdnet.org, AgPwrMag@aol.com, solson@reeusda.gov, casawg@igc.apc.org, chrisL@eharvest.com, IPMnetNUZ@ava.bcc.orst.edu, safefood@cp.duluth.mn.us, fbpays@jps.net, ace@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu, *Michele Hebert , *Don Vargo , Jim Currie , *Rick Gibson , *David Chaney , *Dennis Lamm , *Bob Barber , *Dick Bowen , *Jim Nelson , Cinda Williams , * Jackson Phillip , *Hudson Glimp , *Ray Macduff , *John Luna , Mary Staben , *Robert Newhall , *Mike Smith , acxwe@montana.edu, feise@wsu.edu, Jim Currie , Cinda Williams , Mary Staben , Tom Jahns , Fred Sorenson , Lisa Ferentinos From: Kristen Kelleher Subject: NEWS: Producer Scholarships for Conference Cc: soilcomp@cc.usu.edu, kristi@mendel.usu.edu, fnhinck@cc.usu.edu, akurki@mcn.net, bobn@ext.usu.edu, freeburn@uwyo.edu, lschafer@uwyo.edu, JAUBURN@intranet.reeusda.gov, kkroll@asrr.arsusda.gov, vberton@pop.wam.umd.edu, san@nal.usda.gov Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 651 --============_-1266912916==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" EDITORS and LEADERS: Please publish or circulate this information, or forward to colleagues. ========================================= NEWS December 14, 1999 For scholarship information, Contact: Jim Freeburn or Lori Schafer (307) 532-8892, freeburn@uwyo.edu or lschafer@uwyo.edu For general conference information, Contact: Gina Hashagen, Oregon State University (541) 737-5477; hashageg@bcc.orst.edu Or, go to http://wsare.usu.edu/2000 Producer Scholarships Available to Attend the Western Sustainable Agriculture Conference Set for March 2000 Deadline: January 21, 2000 Logan, UT - "Farming and Ranching for Profit, Stewardship, and Community" is the theme of a Western regional sustainable agriculture conference to be held in Portland, Oregon on March 7-9, 2000. A foremost goal of the event is to arm farmers and ranchers with ways to be profitable and thrive in the new century. Nationally-known speakers, farmers and ranchers, researchers, agricultural extension agents and others from the Western U.S will gather in Portland to exchange current research results and producers' production and marketing successes. A variety of crops, approaches, climates and agricultural systems will be covered. To encourage broad-based attendance at the event by farmers and ranchers from around the Western U.S., the USDA Western Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (Western SARE) program will provide a limited number of travel scholarships for producers. "One measure of the event's success will be how many producers attend. It's also important that we attract farmers and ranchers from different parts of the West," said Larry Thompson, a berry and vegetable grower from Boring, Oregon, and chair of Western SARE's governing Administrative Council. According to Thompson, the producer scholarship application is simple and brief. The scholarships will help bring together producers from the Southwest, the Intermountain area, the Pacific Islands, California and the Pacific Northwest to learn the latest techniques and foster momentum for a sustainable American agriculture in the next century. To request an application for a producer scholarship, contact Jim Freeburn or Lori Schafer at the Western SARE Professional Development Program office at (307) 532-8892, freeburn@uwyo.edu or lschafer@uwyo.edu The deadline for scholarship applications is January 21, 2000. A registration brochure with an overview of presenters and speaker topics, as well as directions on how to sign-up for poster sessions, a "share fair" exhibition and the field tour is now available. To request a registration brochure, contact Gina Hashagen, Oregon State University at (541) 737-5477 or hashageg@bcc.orst.edu. Or, go to the conference Web site at http://wsare.usu.edu/2000 Conference organizers suggest registering as early as possible. Registrations will be accepted on a first-come basis as seating capacity is limited. Conference Program Notes Among diverse sessions, confirmed keynote speakers include Virginia producer and author Joel Salatin, who will talk about how to increase farm and ranch profits through innovative livestock and ecological practices. Salatin, author of "Pastured Poultry Profits" and "Salad Bar Beef" will both speak and conduct a workshop at the event. In addition, Oregonian Karla Chambers, co-owner and marketing director of Stahlbush Island Farms, will discuss changes in consumer demand for sustainably grown foods. Stahlbush Island Farms is a 2,000-acre vegetable and fruit production and processing operation that markets its frozen pureed foods worldwide. A day-long tour will give attendees on-the-ground experience with prospering Portland-area farms, direct-marketing approaches, eco-labeling successes, and youth and community efforts that relate to local agriculture. Issues about farming in the midst of urban sprawl and regulation will also be illustrated. Specific program topics include: irrigated and dryland cropping systems; grazing and livestock operations; innovative marketing strategies; soil quality; no till systems; biological pest control; vegetable, small grain, tree fruit, wine grape and other crops; and more. The program will also offer a number of information-sharing opportunities. About Western SARE Since 1988 through federal fiscal 1999, the U.S. Congress has allocated more than $103.3 million to the SARE effort; Western SARE has received $23.2 million in funds. The SARE program, which was authorized by Congress in the 1990 and 1996 Farm Bills, is managed in the West by an Administrative Council. The committee of scientists, producers and administrators represent a variety of interests and provide local leadership to research and training efforts. It operates in cooperation with the USDA SARE office and the Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service. V. Philip Rasmussen, a soil scientist at the program's host institution, Utah State University, is regional coordinator of the Western program. The Western region includes Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, Wyoming and the Island Protectorates of American Samoa, Guam, Micronesia and the Northern Mariana Islands. ### Prepared by: Kristen Kelleher, Western SARE Communications Specialist Interested news media should contact Kelleher at (530) 752-5987 or kkelleher@ucdavis.edu. ******************************* Kristen Kelleher Senior Public Information Rep/ Communications Specialist Western SARE Mail and contact information: SARE University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8716 (530) 752-5987 (530) 754-8550 kkelleher@ucdavis.edu FOR UPS, FED-X, or other priority mail: SARE, University of California DANR Bldg, Hopkins Rd. Davis, CA 95616 ****************************** --============_-1266912916==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EDITORS and LEADERS: Please publish or circulate this information, or forward to colleagues. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Times_New_RomanNEWS Times_New_RomanDecember 14, 1999 =46or scholarship information, Contact: Jim Freeburn or Lori Schafer (307) 532-8892, 0000,0000,00FFfreeburn@uwyo.edu or 0000,0000,00FFlschafer@uwyo.edu =46or general conference information, Contact: Gina Hashagen, Oregon State University (541) 737-5477; hashageg@bcc.orst.edu Or, go to 0000,0000,00FFhttp://wsare.usu.edu/2000 Producer Scholarships Available to Attend the=20 Western Sustainable Agriculture Conference Set for March 2000 Deadline: January 21, 2000 Logan, UT - "Farming and Ranching for Profit, Stewardship, and Community" is the theme of a Western regional sustainable agriculture conference to be held in Portland, Oregon on March 7-9, 2000. A foremost goal of the event is to arm farmers and ranchers with ways to be profitable and thrive in the new century. Nationally-known speakers, farmers and ranchers, researchers, agricultural extension agents and others from the Western U.S will gather in Portland to exchange current research results and producers' production and marketing successes. A variety of crops, approaches, climates and agricultural systems will be covered. To encourage broad-based attendance at the event by farmers and ranchers from around the Western U.S., the USDA Western Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (Western SARE) program will provide a limited number of travel scholarships for producers.=20 "One measure of the event's success will be how many producers attend. It's also important that we attract farmers and ranchers from different parts of the West," said Larry Thompson, a berry and vegetable grower from Boring, Oregon, and chair of Western SARE's governing Administrative Council. According to Thompson, the producer scholarship application is simple and brief. The scholarships will help bring together producers from the Southwest, the Intermountain area, the Pacific Islands, California and the Pacific Northwest to learn the latest techniques and foster momentum for a sustainable American agriculture in the next century. To request an application for a producer scholarship, contact Jim =46reeburn or Lori Schafer at the Western SARE Professional Development Program office at (307) 532-8892, 0000,0000,00FFfreeburn@uwyo.edu or 0000,0000,00FFlschafer@uwyo.edu The deadline for scholarship applications is January 21, 2000. A registration brochure with an overview of presenters and speaker topics, as well as directions on how to sign-up for poster sessions, a "share fair" exhibition and the field tour is now available. To request a registration brochure, contact Gina Hashagen, Oregon State University at (541) 737-5477 or 0000,0000,00FFhashageg@bcc.orst.edu= . Or, go to the conference Web site at 0000,0000,00FFhttp://wsare.usu.edu/2000 Conference organizers suggest registering as early as possible. Registrations will be accepted on a first-come basis as seating capacity is limited. Conference Program Notes Among diverse sessions, confirmed keynote speakers include Virginia producer and author Joel Salatin, who will talk about how to increase farm and ranch profits through innovative livestock and ecological practices. Salatin, author of "Pastured Poultry Profits" and "Salad Bar Beef" will both speak and conduct a workshop at the event. In addition, Oregonian Karla Chambers, co-owner and marketing director of Stahlbush Island Farms, will discuss changes in consumer demand for sustainably grown foods. Stahlbush Island Farms is a 2,000-acre vegetable and fruit production and processing operation that markets its frozen pureed foods worldwide. A day-long tour will give attendees on-the-ground experience with prospering Portland-area farms, direct-marketing approaches, eco-labeling successes, and youth and community efforts that relate to local agriculture. Issues about farming in the midst of urban sprawl and regulation will also be illustrated. Specific program topics include: irrigated and dryland cropping systems; grazing and livestock operations; innovative marketing strategies; soil quality; no till systems; biological pest control; vegetable, small grain, tree fruit, wine grape and other crops; and more. The program will also offer a number of information-sharing opportunities. About Western SARE Since 1988 through federal fiscal 1999, the U.S. Congress has allocated more than $103.3 million to the SARE effort; Western SARE has received $23.2 million in funds. The SARE program, which was authorized by Congress in the 1990 and 1996 Farm Bills, is managed in the West by an Administrative Council. The committee of scientists, producers and administrators represent a variety of interests and provide local leadership to research and training efforts. It operates in cooperation with the USDA SARE office and the Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service. V. Philip Rasmussen, a soil scientist at the program's host institution, Utah State University, is regional coordinator of the Western program. The Western region includes Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, Wyoming and the Island Protectorates of American Samoa, Guam, Micronesia and the Northern Mariana Islands. ### Prepared by:=20 Kristen Kelleher, Western SARE Communications Specialist Interested news media should contact Kelleher at (530) 752-5987 or 0000,0000,00FFkkelleher@ucdavis.edu= . ******************************* Kristen Kelleher Senior Public Information Rep/ Communications Specialist Western SARE Mail and contact information: SARE University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8716 (530) 752-5987 (530) 754-8550 kkelleher@ucdavis.edu =46OR UPS, FED-X, or other priority mail: SARE, University of California DANR Bldg, Hopkins Rd. Davis, CA 95616 ****************************** --============_-1266912916==_ma============-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 18:40:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04370 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29612 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:27:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29600 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:27:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11y1LQ-0001cV-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:27:00 +0100 Message-ID: <3856D7C0.5BA4E138@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:50:24 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Liebhardt CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: GMO labels References: <199912142203.OAA18962@schilling.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 652 Your Viagra-corn example is right on. This actually is the case with Zeneca's GE tomato that's being grown in California. This tomato is grown completely separated from non GE tomatos. Why? A Zenecarepresentative explained: the GE tomato would loose it's GE when it crosses with non GE tomatos. (Maybe an idea for California based activist: put some non-GE tomatoseeds in the GE tomato fields) Wytze de Lange Bill Liebhardt wrote: > When we buy any product we are not buying the product but the perceived > benefit. Think about anything you buy or would like to buy and it is the > benefits you really are thinking about and thats the reason you make the > purchase. Now ask the question-why doesn't the bio tech industry want > labeling? I would suggest that the reason is that most of the products > they have brought on line have no perceived benefits and may actually have > negative factors associated with them to the ultimate consumer. So when > that is the case they fight labeling because they do not want an informed > public being able to make that choice. Let's look at bovine growth hormone > sold by Monsanto. They did everything possible with FDA help to keep > people in the dark(The mushroom complex) They fed us a lot of horse manure > and kept us in the dark as much as possible. There is absolutely no > benefit to drinking milk with the artificial bovine growth hormone. In > fact there are reasons why you would not want to drink it with respect to > social and environmental issues. From a health standpoint there are > potential risks. Harvard based studies has shown that levels of IGF-1 > influences the risk of getting breast and prostrate cancer. Levels of > IGF-1 in normal milk are 1-9 nanograms/ml and with rbgh is 1-13. Women > with high levels of IGF-1 are 7X more likely to get breast cancer than > women with low levels and in men it is 4X more prostrate cancer. So you > can see why Monsanto does not want an informed public on this issue. > > When bio tech products benefit the consumer it will be easy to separate the > products, foods or commodities. For example suppose that some food could > eliminate Alzheimer and could do it at a very reasonable price. I do not > think we would hear that it is too expensive to segregate. > > Suppose for example that Pioneer was able to genetically engineer corn that > had the same effect as Viagra on men. Suppose also that there were no > other problems, no side effects and no environmental problems. Suppose > also that 25 g of corn flakes provided the effect and it cost only $2.00. > Do you think Pioneer would say it is too expensive to separate? The obvious > answer is a big NO. And why would that be the case? Because it would be > in their interest to segregate and it would be beneficial and profitable to > them. I know this maybe an outrageous example but it gets the point(no > pun intended) across. > > Sleep on that one. > > Bill Liebhardt > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 19:26:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04952 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27611 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:10:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from wist.ngdc.noaa.gov (wist.ngdc.noaa.gov [140.172.180.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27538 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:10:38 -0500 (EST) From: jdillon@ngdc.noaa.gov Received: (from jdillon@localhost) by wist.ngdc.noaa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21252; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:10:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:10:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199912150010.RAA21252@wist.ngdc.noaa.gov> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Revised Deadline: GIS/EM4 Call For Papers Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 653 ****************************************************************************** SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT Recognizing that the prior announcement was recently added to several hundred listservers, and that many have sent requests, we are extending the FINAL deadline for submission of abstracts from December 17 1999, TO January 29, 2000. Please DO forward this announcement to all interested parties. Please DO NOT ignore the warning below. ****************************************************************************** Call for Papers*- GIS/EM4 (Third Circular - Revised due date -- Jan.29, 2000) 4th International Conference on Integrating Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and Environmental Modeling (GIS/EM4) September 2-8, 2000: The Banff Centre for Conferences, Banff, Alberta, Canada Sponsors to-date: NSF, NCGIA, NASA, USFS, EPA, NOAA, USGS, USACE, NRCS *Abstracts are invited for book chapters, journal articles, tutorials or workshops, method/technique/ tool demonstrations, and electronic or static "poster" presentations contributing to the 4th International Conference on Integrating GIS and Environmental Modeling. The meeting will be held in dedicated, full service facilities at The Banff Centre for Conferences in Banff, Alberta, Canada, September 2-8, 2000. Self-explanatory abstracts in English should be 1-2 pages in length and must include title, author(s), institutional affiliation(s), explanation of completed work to be described, and 5-10 author-assigned key words. Clear relevance must be shown to predictive, numerical modeling approaches to environmental problem solving. A special conference theme will be human-environment interactions, and the role that GIS and modeling have in their improved understanding and prediction. The forum will retain its cross-disciplinary, pan-scientific, and problem solving emphases consistent with a concern for better integrated understanding of complex whole systems, their integrity and sustained functioning, and particularly (but not exclusively) their interactions with human activity. Spatial, statistical, temporal, and other methodological considerations are expected to be given balanced treatment with issues of science theory, new data sources and sensors, computing technologies, and application techniques. WARNING: DO NOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO THIS MESSAGE. RESPOND ONLY TO http://www.colorado.edu/research/cires/banff OR gisem4@colorado.edu, AS INSTRUCTED BELOW. If you comply, an email acknowledgement will be provided. Abstracts should be submitted no later than 5:00 pm (Pacific Standard Time) on January 29, 2000 (extended from Dec. 17, 1999) via a web-active form available on the conference web page at http://www.colorado.edu/research/cires/banff/. This URL also contains other important information about contributions to the conference. Email correspondence must be addressed directly to the Conference Secretariat at GISEM4@colorado.edu. If you must submit an abstract by some means other than the web page and its web-active form, or if you have other urgent questions about the conference, please contact one of the following or send correspondence directly to: Conference Secretariat, GIS/EM4, Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES), CIRES Building 216, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309-0216 USA. Conference Director and Co-directors: Dr. Bradley Parks, Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES) Campus Box 216, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, 80309-0216. Email: bparks@colorado.edu, Tel: 303-497-6330, Fax: 303-497-6513. Mr. Michael Crane, US Geological Survey, EROS Data Center (EDC) 47914 252nd Street, Sioux Falls, SD 57198-0001 Email: mpcrane@usgs.gov, Tel: 605-594-6041, Fax: 605-594-6150. Dr. Keith Clarke, National Center for Geographic Information and Analysis (NCGIA) 3510 Phelps Hall, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060. Email: kclarke@geog.ucsb.edu, Tel: 805-893-7961, Fax: 805-893-3146. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 20:07:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05712 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19807 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:51:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19689 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16524 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 00:51:17 -0000 Received: from i48-43-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO mr-peabody) (216.26.63.88) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 00:51:17 -0000 Message-ID: <004801bf4696$e044b0a0$012aa8c0@mr-peabody.my-station.com> From: "Samantha Searcy" To: , Subject: Job opening at The Food Alliance Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:53:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Content-Type: text/plain; boundary="------------EF09B125194EB1B140FEF94D"; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 654 This position has been reopened with a slightly revised job description, all interested and qualified applicants are encouraged to apply. THE FOOD ALLIANCE Office Manager Position Announcement The Food Alliance is seeking an Office Manager to handle its day-to-day operations and insure that the infrastructure of the organization is in good health. Reporting directly to the Executive Director, the Office Manager is responsible for human resource issues such as benefits and scheduling as well as computer systems and office supplies. It is the Office Manager’s job to see that present procedures run smoothly and to evaluate those procedures or systems and replace them if necessary. Responsibilities include: Internal Systems: The Office Manager is responsible for seeing to it that all of TFA’s internal systems are adequate to the job and that they are cost effective. S/he will evaluate all current systems and procedures and bring them up to standards agreed upon by the Management Committee. This includes, but is not exclusive to, the phone system, the computer network and support, software inventory, procedures for mailings, etc. S/he will be responsible for insuring that all tools are available for the staff: office supplies, postage meter, fed ex service, etc.. S/he must be proficient enough in current computer hardware and software (Microsoft Office, FileMaker or EBase database software) to use them to troubleshoot for staff. Employee Benefits and Payroll: The Office Manager, in consultation with the Management Team, is responsible for insuring that the employees benefits package is cost effective, gives good service and is competitive with other organizations. S/he also is responsible for payroll and tracking employee leave including comp time. Work Flow: The Office Manager will facilitate work flow issues in the office and will be responsible for maintaining the master schedule. It will be the OM’s job to track big projects and bring on temps or volunteers as needed. S/he will monitor staff vacation plans to assure that the office is not understaffed at any time. The OM will also support managers in development of annual plan and budget. Board Support: The Office Manager is responsible for coordinating quarterly Board meetings including site selection, arranging meals, and Board and staff travel. S/he is responsible for attending Board meetings, taking notes and preparing the minutes of the meeting for the Board. S/he is also responsible for coordinating all mailings and reports to the Board. Public Relations: The Office Manager is likely the first person the public encounters when approaching The Food Alliance. As such s/he informs the public’s first opinion of TFA and will be responsible for presenting a welcoming, competent impression of TFA whether on the phone or in person. QUALIFICATIONS This position requires a person of formidable organizational skills, capable of juggling a dozen things at once with maturity and patience. The job encompasses a range of responsibilities from answering the phones to developing and tracking budgets for the office and requires excellent judgment, an abundance of creativity and a sense of humor. The right person for this job will have had several years’ experience as an office manager and will be looking for a challenge. Strong communications skills, both written and spoken, are essential. This is a full-time position and compensation is competitive and commensurate with experience. The Food Alliance is an equal opportunity employer and encourages diversity in its staff. All interested candidates are encouraged to apply. Submit a cover letter and resume to The Food Alliance, Attn: OM Position, 1829 NE Alberta #5, Portland, OR 97211 or electronically to scottexo@teleport.com. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 22:06:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08252 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02305 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:54:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02297 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cu-dialup (D0709.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.23]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA23061; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:52:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991214213204.00b519e0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:40:43 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Gilbert W. Gillespie Jr." Subject: Small Businesses Are Backbone of Communities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA02298 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 655 Article by Metta Winter from: Agriculture and Life Sciences News, December 1999, page 3, published by the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14850. Small Businesses Are Backbone of Communities Big businesses that dominate a town’s economy don’t have the community’s interests at heart. For communities to thrive, they need locally owned businesses, including farms. Rural sociologist Tom Lyson holds up his U.S. Department of Commerce badge and says that it’s his ticket to the inner sanctum of the Census Bureau. Lyson is the first sociologist to get into Census Bureau data files for the purpose of showing that communities dependent on big business interests are less well off—economically and in every other way—than those built on small locally owned businesses. “When the economy of a community is dominated by one large plant or nationally owned business, it has a dampening effect on organizational life which, in turn, means less investment in the well-being of the community over the long haul,” explains Lyson, citing an observation that was made in testimony before Congress at the end of World War II. As Lyson tells the story (that has taken him years to piece together), Congress didn’t listen to the sociologists of the day, awarded munitions contracts to big businesses, and the military-industrial complex was born. As long as the United States dominated the world economy, businesses could afford to enter into a tacit social contract with labor unions. As a result, towns in the industrial heartland, Buffalo and Syracuse among them, thrived. “But when the economies of Europe, Japan, and southeast Asia became strong competitors, American corporations reacted by becoming lean and mean—they moved out and left these communities to die,” Lyson points out. That doesn’t happen to communities that have a strong, independent, merchant class of small businesses and family-owned farms. Small business owners are committed to their communities; they might be fiscally conservative but nevertheless won’t let the schools or the roads go to pot. What’s more, locally owned businesses spawn a rich associational life. Kiwanis clubs, bowling leagues, hospital auxiliaries, church youth groups, and choral societies all contribute to better social outcomes such as less crime, fewer out-of-wedlock births, and better health. “But if you’re working for Kodak, you are thinking about where you’ll be transferred next. So your allegiance is to the corporation not to the community,” Lyson says. “I get really juiced up when I can make the big connections, when the lightbulb goes on and I can push things a bit,” says Lyson, professor of rural sociology, who, a dozen years ago, found in the college a home for his controversial ideas. And a place in which to act on them, too. Take the theory of civic community, which says that the goal of agriculture should be more than producing low-cost food and making a profit; rather that agriculture and food are inextricably linked to the community and to the environment as well. “And if the food costs a little more, then I’ll pay more for it,” he adds, “because there is value in having farms out there, value in keeping people employed in agriculture.” Lofty idea, a holdover perhaps from Lyson’s early days as a warrior in President Lyndon Johnson’s war on poverty. But how likely is it to fly at a time when the middle class in America is struggling financially to keep its head above water? Lyson has put the theory of civic community into action as director of Farming Alternatives: Cornell’s Agriculture and Development and Diversification Program. The program is a $250,000-a-year think tank that promotes community agricultural development through sophisticated direct marketing of locally grown, value-added products—what’s known as the New Agriculture. Examples include fresh fruit and vegetable stands at travel plazas on the New York State Thruway, farmers’ markets, community-supported agriculture (CSAs) where individuals buy a share of a farmer’s crop, restaurants featuring New York State–grown produce and wines, and agritourism operations such as U-pick pumpkin farms featuring hay rides and homemade pies. Lyson contends that in the Northeast we’ve paid a lot of attention to industrial, mass production agriculture by increasing yields, increasing milk output, making farms bigger, and making farmers into managers. But if this is all we rely on, we’ll get beaten by global-scale processors from California, Florida, Texas, and Mexico. Lyson says that instead of putting all its economic eggs in one basket, New York should be simultaneously focusing on bringing production and consumption closer together. New York State imports an estimated 85 percent of its food and that percentage would be closer to 95 were it not for milk. “New York City is at the center of the biggest consumer market in the world, stretching from Boston to Washington, and we’ve hardly begun to exploit it,” Lyson says. “Why should the food eaten in Manhattan come from California, when a lot of it could be grown next door in the Hudson Valley?” By developing unique, regionally identified products and cultivating local and regional markets, the potential is unlimited. Lyson points to cheese as an example. “The biggest economic multiplier is with a cheese plant,” he says, explaining that in the manufacture of cheese, every dollar rotates back six times through the community (to the farmer, the veterinarian, the feed seller, the milk hauler, etc.). “So we need to think creatively about cheese just like we did with the wine industry. Because of the Farm Family Winery Act of 1975, there are more than 100 wineries in the state now. Why don’t we do this with cheese plants and have a wine and cheese trail?” In the long run, Lyson says, Farming Alternatives establishes an agriculture that will be food for communities and the environment. He points out further, “The New Agriculture isn’t an act of resistance to industrialized agriculture; rather it’s an opportunity for a small, local, consumer-driven food system that disappeared a century ago to come back and exist with it side by side.” Metta Winter To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 14 22:07:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08269 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02157 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:52:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02147 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cu-dialup (D0709.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.23]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA23323; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:52:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991214214119.00b4c100@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:45:36 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Gilbert W. Gillespie Jr." Subject: Position Announcement: NOFA-NY Certification Program Dairy/Livestock Coordinator Cc: ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA02148 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 656 Please contact Patricia Kane (see end of message) for more information. Position Announcement Dairy / Livestock Coordinator The NOFA-NY Certification Program is seeking a person interested in the position of Dairy/Livestock Coordinator. The Coordinator is responsible for the interaction of the Certification Program with dairy and livestock applicants for organic certification, including visiting farms and developing educational materials for farmers. The position will be 40 hours per week and be based in the Certification Program Office in Binghamton, NY. The successful applicant will begin work in as soon as possible. 1. Duties a) General Office Duties including: filing, letter writing, answering phone. b) Answering mail and phone requests for information on the Dairy/Livestock Certification Program, including technical Information on correct practices to be used and those that are prohibited. c) Application Reviews, of both first time and renewing dairy and livestock applicants, for: * compliance with Certification Standards * completeness d) Preparation of files to be sent to the inspector and coordination with inspectors so that inspections are completed in a timely manner. e) Work with Dairy / Livestock Review Committee to complete certification of applicants f) Travel to farms throughout NY for the purpose of conducting the Pre-Application Visits for Dairy Certification g) Assist with development of forms/applications for use in the Dairy Certification Program. h) Data Base Work including: * entering information and preparing files for new applicants * logging in all information on products used by farmers for both crop and livestock production * maintaining data base for certification inquiries i) Coordinate and assist with educational programs for certified farmers including: * development of educational programs * obtaining facilities, speakers, catering * preparation of program packets * registration duties * work with farmers to establish farmer discussion groups in local areas * coordinate a series of farm tours, highlighting good management practices * review of research materials and literature for information suitable for educational packets on specific topics * provide farmers with a listing of pertinent educational activities throughout out the year * assist with publication of regular newsletter to Certified farmers j) Assist in the development of regular publicity on the Certification Program 2. Qualifications * Good working knowledge of organic dairy and crop production; practical experience a plus * Ability to develop educational programs appropriate for organic dairy and livestock systems * Excellent working knowledge of the Windows 95 operating system, IBM Format * Excellent working knowledge of Word for Windows word processing * Good organizational skills * Good writing skills and letter creation abilities * Good telephone skills, able to handle inquiries promptly and efficiently * Scheduling flexibility for evening meetings and Saturday events if necessary * Reliable automobile, ability to travel when necessary, including the possibility of overnight stays 3. Compensation & Benefits * Starting rate: $ 12.00 per hour * One week paid vacation after one year * Five paid Holidays per year * Travel expenses are covered * Annual Performance and Salary Review * Major Medical Insurance Plan - on a shared cost basis - after one year 4. To Apply Send a letter of application, describing qualifications and interest in the position, along with your résumé, and names of three references, to: Patricia Kane, Program Administrator NOFA-NY Organic Certification Program 26 Towpath Road Binghamton, NY 13904 If you have additional questions, please call (607) 724-9851 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 00:15:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09690 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:15:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15869 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:58:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from thehub.knight-hub.com (thehub.knight-hub.com [205.177.16.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15859 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (dialas-57.knight-hub.com [205.252.164.57]) by thehub.knight-hub.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24281 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:58:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:58:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199912150458.XAA24281@thehub.knight-hub.com> X-Sender: auburn@knight-hub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Walt and Jill Auburn Subject: apology for posting copyrighted article Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 657 Whoops, in my haste or tiredness the other night, I mistakenly replied to the list when I thought I was replying just to Bill, shouldn't have pasted a copyrighted article from AP to the whole list, sorry. Jill To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 00:25:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09810 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17912 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:03:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web1403.mail.yahoo.com (web1403.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.167]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA17873 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2757 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 1999 04:54:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19991215045418.2756.qmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.236.32] by web1403.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:54:18 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:54:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen M. Apatow" Subject: Interview: Chemical Plants & Y2K To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 658 December 15, 1999 Contact: Stephen M. Apatow President, Humanitarian Resource Institute Eastern USA: (203) 668-0282 Western USA: (775) 884-4680 Internet: http://www.humanitarian.net Email: sma@humanitarian.net FUTUREWATCH PROGRAM ON CHEMICAL PLANTS & Y2K: HELPING COMMUNITIES PREPARE Listen to the Interview on Real Player: http://www.futurewatchonline.org/audiofiles/TextFiles/T9952Y2K.ram International Media Release: Indepth - High Hazard Chemicals & Y2K http://www.humanitarian.net/futurewatch.html Community & Family Preparedness Web Site: http://www.humanitarian.net/prepare.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 08:36:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14008 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA20688 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:48:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20673 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-242.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.242]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA23852; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:48:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003801bf4713$e2b00380$f2fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , "Bill Liebhardt" References: <199912142203.OAA18962@schilling.ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: GMO labels Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:48:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 659 Bill wrote the very good post of which I refer but due to space have snipped most. I asked the question is it legal to label something GM free and started a thread on various other factors about labeling ie: its too expensive to label, consumers do have the smarts to read them, but I am still unclear if its legal. I asked the question in the first place due to what I have read on growth hormones added to milk. Some how Monsanto seems to have gotten the gov. to make it illegal to label milk as free of added hormones. This has always troubled me more than the hormone being there in the first place. I very much disapprove of not allowing labeling should a company wish too. Granted I do believe that the label needs to be honest. Thanks Beth > When we buy any product we are not buying the product but the perceived > benefit. Think about anything you buy or would like to buy and it is the > benefits you really are thinking about and thats the reason you make the > purchase. Now ask the question-why doesn't the bio tech industry want > labeling? I would suggest that the reason is that most of the products > they have brought on line have no perceived benefits and may actually have > negative > benefit to drinking milk with the artificial bovine growth hormone.snipped > potential risks. Harvard based studies has shown that levels of IGF-1 > influences the risk of getting breast and prostrate cancer. Levels of > IGF-1 in normal milk are 1-9 nanograms/ml and with rbgh is 1-13. Women > with high levels of IGF-1 are 7X more likely to get breast cancer than > women with low levels and in men it is 4X more prostrate cancer. So you > can see why Monsanto does not want an informed public on this issue. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 14:46:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05554 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12353 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:58:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12250 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ofrf8.tychonet.com (ofrf8.tychonet.com [205.179.36.8]) by scruz.net (8.8.5/1.34) with SMTP id KAA11211 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:58:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ofrf.org) Message-Id: <4.1.19991215104751.00a26e70@mail.scruznet.com> X-Sender: mark2@mail.scruznet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:59:49 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Lipson Subject: Organic Research Grants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by scruz.net id KAA11211 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 660 OFRF AWARDS RECORD AMOUNT IN 1999;
SPRING 2000 DEADLINE APPROACHES

Over $128,000 in grant funds were awarded by the Organic Farming Research Foundation (OFRF) in 1999, the largest annual amount of research dollars granted in the organization=92s 9-year history.

Kaolin particle film coatings to suppress insects and disease in apples, non-chemical methods for controlling parasitic mites in honeybees, and organic pest management for greenhouse production are 3 of the 23 organic farming research projects funded this past year.

=93We are seeing more cooperative approaches in organic agriculture research between farmers and ranchers and the Land Grant university system. This is both a welcome and needed partnership for today=92s agriculture,=94 said Jerry DeWitt, chair of OFRF=92s Research & Educa= tion Committee that evaluates the grant proposals.

OFRF is dedicated to fostering the improvement and widespread adoption of organic farming practices. Toward this end, OFRF administers a competitive grants program to support organic farming research and education efforts across the United States. Since 1990, OFRF has awarded close to $630,000 in competitive grants and donor-directed funds. OFRF disseminates research findings in the form of reports summarizing each project. Currently, 51 reports are available to the public on topics such as weed management, managing insects and diseases, fertility management, livestock, and organic farming systems.

OFRF disburses research and education grants twice a year. Deadlines in the year 2000 are Jan. 15 and July 15, 2000. The OFRF Board voted at its October meeting to earmark up to $150,000 for competitive grants in the year 2000.

Contact the Organic Farming Research Foundation for application guidelines or for a list of project reports. Organic Farming Research Foundation, <www.ofrf.org>, P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061, 831-426-6606, <research@ofrf.org>.
        &nb= sp;         &= nbsp;         = ;         &nb= sp;  # # #


Organic Farming Research Foundation
Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director
ph: 831-426-4006 or -6606; fax: 831-426-6670
PO Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 16:08:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06827 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04624 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:34:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from svn.net (IDENT:root@svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04608 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from business (pm3-140.svn.net [167.160.201.140]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23970 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:35:23 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Michael Straus" To: Subject: media looking for contact Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:37:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 661 I am working with a journalist who is working on a follow-up story from the California Farm Conference, on the topic of building the urban-rural connection. She is wondering if anyone out there has worked "to educate urban building trades unions about the downside of developing farmland (just as environmentalists have had to dialogue with loggers.)" If you know of any individuals or organizations working along these lines, please forward me their contact information. Many thanks! Michael ++++++++++++++ Michael Straus Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive Agriculture 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940  USA phone:  415-663-8343; fax:  415-663-8346 www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com  To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 16:08:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06834 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08726 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:44:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08665 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:45:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sustainable Agriculture Network To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:45:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 662 NOTICE - NOTICE - NOTICE - NOTICE The U.S. Department of Agriculture Consultation for Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) On Sustainable Agriculture and Rural Development and Integrated Planning and Management of Land Resources For the UN COMMISSION ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT 8th Session at UN Headquarters in NYC Originally Scheduled for December 13, 1999 10:00 am to 12:00 noon EST Room 104-A, the Williamsburg Room, Whitten Building US Department of Agriculture, Washington, DC 20250 HAS BEEN RE-SCHEDULED FOR: Friday, January 7, 2000 10:00 am to 12:00 noon EST Room 107-A, Whitten Building US Department of Agriculture, Washington, DC 20250 12th and Jefferson Drive, SW Smithsonian Metro Stop Teleconferencing will be available. Call-in lines with audio answer will be: 202-401-8746 (Metro DC) or 1-800-377-4755 (outside of Metro DC) For more information, please contact: Ann Carey (Phone: 202-690-0511; Fax: 202-690-4390; E-mail: ann.carey@usda.gov csd8consult3adoc To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 16:23:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07234 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19296 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:03:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19248 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991215210326.SUBX1336.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:03:26 -0800 Message-ID: <38580324.6195D80E@home.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:07:48 -0800 From: William Evans Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: rBST FREE labeling is alive and wellRe: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1483 References: <199912151901.OAA16792@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 663 . Some how Monsanto seems> to have gotten the gov. to make it illegal to label milk as free of added > hormones. This has always troubled me In California state at leaaast, ther's lots of dairy products labled " rBST FREE" ....is any other state /country really different???? To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 17:27:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12178 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09622 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:37:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09609 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from gwg2 ([128.253.226.175]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08252; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:37:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991215160646.00b4b250@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: gwg2@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:25:31 -0500 To: glenn@smallfarms.com From: Gilbert Gillespie Subject: Re: Small Businesses Are Backbone of Communities Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <38574C4D.76D8@smallfarms.com> References: <4.1.19991214213204.00b519e0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id QAA09611 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 664 At 10:07 PM 12/14/99 -1000, you wrote: >Gilbert, > >Thank you for posting Metta Winter's article. For an older war horse >like me it sounds like back to the future. > >1. Is there an online version of the full article available? Thanks for your interest. I don't believe that the article is available online. Unfortunately the version I forwarded does not include a great photograph of Tom Lyson. FAP staff have discussed putting the article up on the FAP website (URL below), but we have little time for that sort of thing. You possibly could request a reprint to the editor of ALS News, Richard Church, Alumni Affairs, Cornell University, 276 Roberts Hall, Ithaca, NY 14853-4203, 607-255-7651 > >> Lyson has put the theory of civic community into action as director of >> Farming Alternatives: Cornellís Agriculture and Development and >Diversification >> Program. The program is a $250,000-a-year think tank that promotes community >> agricultural development through sophisticated direct marketing of locally >> grown, value-added productsówhatís known as the New Agriculture. For the record, I know the $250,000 figure appeared in the article, but it is surely a typo as the total budget hovers around $150,000 with two-thirds or more of that coming from research and extension grants. We do, however, think that FAP delivers at least $250,000 worth of value for that amount. > > >2. Does the program have a web site or a source of additional >information? Yes, http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/ruralsoc/fap/fap.html > >glenn >Buy from the Farmer >http://www.smallfarms.com Gil **************************************************************************** Gil Gillespie voice: 607-255-1675 Department of Rural Sociology & fax: 607-254-2896 Division of Nutritional Sciences e-mail: gwg2@cornell.edu 340 Warren Hall Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-7801 USA Many people say that "language by nature lies," but I've never agreed with that. Language is a tool. It can be used to clarify or to confuse, to build collaboration or to enhance control. Clarity, honesty, frankness, and integrity are gifts of the soul, and not all people choose to unwrap them. And some, alas, are trained from the cradle to use it to manipulate, rather than to witness. Those who use it to witness, these days, are often ridiculed (unscientific, impressionistic, emotional, undocumented, subjective), while master manipulators are held up as exemplars. --Michele Gale-Sinex, 09/20/1999 **************************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 19:33:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13831 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08293 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:01:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08141 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-235.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.235]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08026; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:01:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000d01bf4771$e16c2220$ebfa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: Subject: Re: media looking for contact Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:00:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 665 Michael, This is just someplace to look. I think its on the American Farmland Trust Web Page. This is a organization that attempts to preserve farmland. I think I read somewhere (could have been a link) that there are house developement plans that preserve green spaces/farms. But anyway they might be an organization to check with. Beth > I am working with a journalist who is working on a follow-up story from the > California Farm Conference, on the topic of building the urban-rural > connection. > > She is wondering if anyone out there has worked "to educate urban building > trades unions about the downside of developing farmland (just as > environmentalists have had to dialogue with > loggers.)" > > If you know of any individuals or organizations working along these lines, > please forward me their contact information. > > Many thanks! > > Michael > > ++++++++++++++ > Michael Straus > Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive > Agriculture > 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940 USA > phone: 415-663-8343; fax: 415-663-8346 > www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 20:49:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14330 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29956 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:20:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29945 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:20:07 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.168]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:20:05 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991215192000.00891840@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:20:00 -0600 To: Subject: Rotenone Hazards? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 666 What does anybody know about the safety of rotenone? How fast does it degrade and can it be absorbed into body via skin or lungs? Being an equal opportunity skeptic, the report below raises some concern about the use of this natural material and any synthetic analogues in food production. Below are relevant parts of an article referenced to an article in JAMA entitled Pesticide Study Aids Parkinson Research. See http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v282n23/full/jmn1215-4.html Mike Miller - who now thanks to the USDA can glow in the dark after eating "beef, pork or lamb" :>)) snip ... Rotenone, which is not selective in this manner, kills neurons whether or not they carry a dopamine transporter and, therefore, was used to investigate whether systemic inhibition of complex I would cause selective neurodegeneration. Rotenone is a common insecticide, said Greenamyre, that is perceived in many quarters as relatively innocuous. "On the Internet it is touted as an organic or natural alternative to synthetic pesticides because it is a natural product. It's often used in reservoirs in the United States and to kill nuisance fish." snip... Greenamyre said the results of his team's investigation indicate that systemic administration of rotenone brings about selective retrograde degeneration of the nigrostriatal system and mimics the slowly progressive course of PD. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 15 22:34:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15796 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA16822 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:08:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16759 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP326.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.104]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05378; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:08:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <385857C5.5621C61@sprintmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:08:53 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? References: <3.0.6.32.19991215192000.00891840@pcsia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 667 Mike, Rotenone is a nerve agent. That's why it's such a good insecticide. It (and other botanical insecticides) are also dangerous to vertebrates (last time I looked I was one). They will cause nerve damage, at least. What they have going for them is that they degrade in the environment in 24 hours or so. They're not on "allowable" lists for certified organic farmers- they're on the "restricted" list. This means they may be used to save a crop and use must be justified to the certifying agency on a case by case basis. I don't use them (and advise others not to) for 2 reasons- First, they're dangerous for the user. I counsel people to use them in a water solution if they must. This keeps the dust down and the product out of the lungs. Second, even though they are botanicals, they are still broad spectrum insecticides. They will kill the predators as well as the pest insects. This results in throwing the insect ecosystem way out of balance. And the predator population takes a lot longer to rebuild. So, in the long run, you're doing more damage than good. I don't know if anyone has looked at the effect of these botanicals on the soil life- couldn't be good. Anybody out there know about this? Alex mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > What does anybody know about the safety of rotenone? How fast does it > degrade and can it be absorbed into body via skin or lungs? Being an equal > opportunity skeptic, the report below raises some concern about the use of > this natural material and any synthetic analogues in food production. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Dec 15 16:24:17 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07267 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16301 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:55:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta003.topica.com (outmta.topica.com [206.132.75.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16062 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:55:12 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Resource Pointer #228 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:55:04 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.1934676643-951758591-945291304@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 668 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Resource Pointer #228 December 15, 1999 For copies of the following resources, please contact the appropriate publishers or organizations directly. *Pesticide Monitor, March 1999 -- Women: Knowledge to Feed the World * Quarterly journal published by PAN Asia and the Pacific (PANAP). March 1999 issue features women's agricultural knowledge, with reports on pilot studies sponsored by PANAP and other groups in Pakistan and India. Includes overview of PANAP's programs on effects of pesticides and globalization on women. March 1999 issue also contains Annual Report for 1998, covering publications and activities such as Community Pesticide Action Kit, new Pesticide Database, study of Pesticides and Credit, and more. 40 pp. Subscriptions US$10 individuals, US$15 NGOs, US$30 universities, US$100 businesses. Contact PANAP, P.O. Box 1170, 10850 Penang, Malaysia; phone (604) 6570271 or 6560381; fax (604) 6577445; email panap@panap.po.my; website http://www.poptel.org.uk/panap/ *Women Resist Globalization, Assert Women's Rights, 1999* Proceedings of November 1998 Third International Women's Conference Against Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Agreement, organized by PAN Asia and the Pacific (PANAP) and other groups. Provides workshop reports on land, food security and sustainable agriculture; indigenous women rejecting globalization; health, reproductive rights and globalization; and more. Appendices include international organizers' contact list plus press clips on conference. Comes with conference poster. 54 pp. US$7. Contact PAN Asia Pacific, P.O. Box 1170, 10850 Penang, Malaysia; phone (604) 657-0271 or (604) 656-0381; fax (604) 657-7445; email panap@panap.po.my; website http://www.poptel.org.uk/panap *Women's Information Services and Networks: a Global Source Book, 1999* International Information Centre and Archives for the Women's Movement (IIAV). Provides contact information and description of women's resource centers, groups and services in 78 countries. Also includes essays on women's networks in Africa, Asia and the Pacific, and Central and Eastern Europe and the Newly Independent States. Contains annotated bibliography plus information on web resources. 176 pp. Netherlands$35. Contact Royal Tropical Institute, Mauritskade 63, P.O. Box 95001, 1090 HA Amsterdam, The Netherlands; phone (31 20) 5688711; fax (31 20) 5688286; email t.klees@kit.nl *Women and IPM: Crop Protection Practices and Strategies, 1999* Elske van de Fliert and Jet Proost, eds. Presents practical lessons on women's roles in crop protection and ways to increase their access to information on integrated pest management (IPM). Explores interrelationships among social structures, power relations, and economic changes such as privatization of farm services. Chapters cover case studies from Bhutan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Russia, Costa Rica, Honduras, Tanzania and Ghana. 107 pp. Netherlands$29. Contact Royal Tropical Institute, Mauritskade 63, P.O. Box 95001, 1090 HA Amsterdam, The Netherlands; phone (31 20) 5688711; fax (31 20) 5688286; email t.klees@kit.nl *Organic Cotton: Working toward Sustainable Agriculture, 1999* Video produced by PANNA. Promotes production and marketing of organic cotton throughout the Americas. Combines examples of experiences growing and producing organic cotton in Peru's Cañete Valley with examples of growing interest in organic cotton manufacturing and consumption in Northern countries. Appropriate for use by farm and consumer groups as well as by retailers and manufacturers concerned about heavy use of pesticides in conventional cotton. Available in English and Spanish. 7 minutes. US$10. Contact PANNA, 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102; phone (415) 981-1771; fax (415) 981-1991; email panna@panna.org; website http://www.panna.org We encourage those interested in having resources listed in the PANUPS Resource Pointer to send review copies of publications, videos or other resources to our office. =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ You share a similar passion. You align with common interests. You connect over a favorite topic. You belong at Topica. http://www.topica.com/t/10 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 00:01:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16960 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18264 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18258 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16800 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16363 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: docuemnts (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id XAA18259 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 669 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:09:51 GMT+1 From: abdelkader ibnelazyz To: London@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: docuemnts Ecole Natinale D'agriculture de meknes BP s/40 Meknes Morocco Email-ibnelazyz@caramail.com hello, I m student in national school of agricultur, in ordzer to obtain Engeneer grad in agronomic science speciality of plant pathology, a have to find a study or reseach entitled: Plant Grouth Rhizobacteria used in biocontrol of Downy mildiew in vitro and under field conditions caused by Plasmopara halstedii and Phytophtora infestans" For this subject, I need some articls of reseach about Bacteria used in biocontrol of plant pthogens, i ask you about some documents a,nd ihave receved yaour emil in review. In the end thank you verry much for yor cooperation. ______________________________________________________ Boîte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From glenn@smallfarms.com Thu Dec 16 00:14:43 1999 Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17078 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.169.243.32 ([206.169.243.93]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23360; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:14:30 -0600 Message-ID: <385878D1.10BC@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:31:24 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Subject: Re: Source for New Zealand-type electric fence charger needed. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 670 Dear Lawrence, Pell and Gallagher are two companies that manufacture electronic control modules for electric fencing. My memory says they’re both out of New Zealand, and the literature I’ve read makes claims for controlling wild game animals including deer. Both companies make several models with a range of specs. including working off batteries. Will you do me a favor? Ask the farmer you’re passing this info on to to please check local suppliers before attempting to mail order. The maintenance issues come into play, and a local dealer will probably be able to answer questions and make suggestions for specific fence design in the area. Buying locally strengthens the dealer and hopefully, the local community. Local patronage helps keep the dealers in business so other small farmers and ranchers can continue to patronize them. You know, the sustainability thing. For me, it’s the same as buying food from the local farmer. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com > Can anyone recommend specific brands of New Zealand-type electric > fence chargers to use for deer control? I need the model that runs off > a battery that can be recharged with a trickle charger or a solar array. > A 3 joule model is the minimum capacity required. What are recommended > mail order sources? > > Many thanks, > > Lawrence > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 00:35:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17239 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA12290 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:14:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12250 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.169.243.32 ([206.169.243.93]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23360; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:14:30 -0600 Message-ID: <385878D1.10BC@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:31:24 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu CC: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Subject: Re: Source for New Zealand-type electric fence charger needed. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 671 Dear Lawrence, Pell and Gallagher are two companies that manufacture electronic control modules for electric fencing. My memory says they’re both out of New Zealand, and the literature I’ve read makes claims for controlling wild game animals including deer. Both companies make several models with a range of specs. including working off batteries. Will you do me a favor? Ask the farmer you’re passing this info on to to please check local suppliers before attempting to mail order. The maintenance issues come into play, and a local dealer will probably be able to answer questions and make suggestions for specific fence design in the area. Buying locally strengthens the dealer and hopefully, the local community. Local patronage helps keep the dealers in business so other small farmers and ranchers can continue to patronize them. You know, the sustainability thing. For me, it’s the same as buying food from the local farmer. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com > Can anyone recommend specific brands of New Zealand-type electric > fence chargers to use for deer control? I need the model that runs off > a battery that can be recharged with a trickle charger or a solar array. > A 3 joule model is the minimum capacity required. What are recommended > mail order sources? > > Many thanks, > > Lawrence > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From brateaver@earthlink.net Thu Dec 16 05:48:16 1999 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19256 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0033.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10428; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:47:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38531C16.4F13463D@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:52:54 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 672 Evrybody please note--this man says , too, that cancer is now half the population== 1 in 2, he says. When I said that here, without data to prove it, I got a slap, but Dr. Nigh did have the info. Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:07 EST > From: SCook21809@aol.com > Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org > To: osalt@teleport.com > Subject: Re: Off subject? > > Yes Will, > > CSAs will be affected by WTO. > If you ask any Biologist monitoring life on the planet they will tell > you we are entering a period of "mass extinction". Loss of habitat and > degradation of the environment is quickly decreasing the diversity of life > forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a > health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket > from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there > won't be any question about if you will have a cancer diagnosis. Rather, > will you notice your cancers in time for treatment? Add to this the genesis > of an Evil Empire euphemistically called free trade and boy do we have a > problem. > Does racing for the cure give us time to observe the causes and take > action to prevent them? Does fighting an unsustainable system give us > resources to create a sustainable alternative? I believe we need to focus on > filling the glass the rest of the way rather than grapple with the gross > exteriors of who is responsible for partially emptying it. We all deny > culpability. > On closer inspection of the hand I use to point a finger at someone else > I always find three fingers pointing back at me. "We have met the > enemy...and he is us." I need to learn to save seed better. I need to teach > more people about composting and growing more food on less land. I need to > find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. Most of all I need to > learn to interact and cooperate with my neighbors toward common goals. > How do I want to spend the rest of my life? Because now is the only > promise I have. > > Focus! > > Art Biggert > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 06:15:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19396 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA00602 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA00476 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0033.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10428; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:47:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38531C16.4F13463D@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:52:54 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 673 Evrybody please note--this man says , too, that cancer is now half the population== 1 in 2, he says. When I said that here, without data to prove it, I got a slap, but Dr. Nigh did have the info. Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:07 EST > From: SCook21809@aol.com > Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org > To: osalt@teleport.com > Subject: Re: Off subject? > > Yes Will, > > CSAs will be affected by WTO. > If you ask any Biologist monitoring life on the planet they will tell > you we are entering a period of "mass extinction". Loss of habitat and > degradation of the environment is quickly decreasing the diversity of life > forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a > health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket > from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there > won't be any question about if you will have a cancer diagnosis. Rather, > will you notice your cancers in time for treatment? Add to this the genesis > of an Evil Empire euphemistically called free trade and boy do we have a > problem. > Does racing for the cure give us time to observe the causes and take > action to prevent them? Does fighting an unsustainable system give us > resources to create a sustainable alternative? I believe we need to focus on > filling the glass the rest of the way rather than grapple with the gross > exteriors of who is responsible for partially emptying it. We all deny > culpability. > On closer inspection of the hand I use to point a finger at someone else > I always find three fingers pointing back at me. "We have met the > enemy...and he is us." I need to learn to save seed better. I need to teach > more people about composting and growing more food on less land. I need to > find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. Most of all I need to > learn to interact and cooperate with my neighbors toward common goals. > How do I want to spend the rest of my life? Because now is the only > promise I have. > > Focus! > > Art Biggert > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 06:16:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19401 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01316 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:49:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01183 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0033.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10880; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:48:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3856825B.8C07D285@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:03 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: "'Gary Elliott'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: De-commodification (was: GMO labeling) References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0074@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 674 It seems so clear to me, Dale Wilson, that my original impression of you here is exactly what I thought. Anyone can see on whose side you are. Wilson, Dale wrote: > Gary, > > > Dale, you say it is expensive to segregate "commodities". > > Your choice of words detail the problem. People do not eat > > commodities, they eat food. > > If you had 1000 tons of wheat in your backyard, you too would probably think > of it differently than the granola in your breakfast bowl. The seed > industry would be quite happy if grains were de-commodified. We would like > to see the identity of our genetic products preserved, because the users of > the grain would be willing to pay for the quality and health attributes we > are developing. Probably, identity preservation will become common, but the > transition is difficult. > > > It has an emotional and cultural connection for them, something > > the conventional food business has forgot. Agri-culture. > > Not really. The processors and repackagers haven't forgot. The big grain > handlers sell to the food companies, who try to connect with consumers. > > > Perhaps the food business should listen to their customers. > > They are always right, no matter how you think they are wrong. > > I agree completely. But right now, it isn't clear what the customers want > regarding transgenic foods. This controversy will facilitate > de-commodification. > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 06:16:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19405 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA00496 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA00405 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0033.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10237; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:47:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <385313EA.2F7EEF34@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:18:02 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: More Monsanto, etc. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 675 I just received the regular publication that I get, from Leopold Center in Iowa,and during an interview with farmers, sure enough, the Monsanto kind of dealings came up. People are certainly aware of they want to be. Bluestem Associates wrote: > Forwarded from Natural Food Merchandiser (online): > > ========== > > Monsanto Co. helped pay for a demonstration in favor of > genetically modified organisms in Washington, D.C., > according to a published report. About 100 members of a > Baptist church got a check from the biotech giant, an > organizer of the protest said. > > Scientists say they've found a way to genetically alter > young hogs so they grow much faster and larger than normal > swine, as reported nationally this week. Less noticed was a > report about a new hog-production system that promises > tastier pork, less damage to the environment and the > potential for greater profits among independent farmers. > That system would eschew modern factory farms. > > =========== > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 06:16:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19411 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02184 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:49:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01571 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0033.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11177; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:49:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3858C1FD.4CBEC073@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:42:05 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wytze CC: Bill Liebhardt , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: GMO labels References: <199912142203.OAA18962@schilling.ucdavis.edu> <3856D7C0.5BA4E138@zap.a2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 what I want to know is, how does the non-GM do the job of upsetting what the GM does? wytze wrote: > Your Viagra-corn example is right on. This actually is the case with Zeneca's > GE tomato that's being grown in California. This tomato is grown completely > separated from non GE tomatos. Why? A Zenecarepresentative explained: the GE > tomato would loose it's GE when it crosses with non GE tomatos. (Maybe an idea > for California based activist: put some non-GE tomatoseeds in the GE tomato > fields) > Wytze de Lange > > Bill Liebhardt wrote: > > > When we buy any product we are not buying the product but the perceived > > benefit. Think about anything you buy or would like to buy and it is the > > benefits you really are thinking about and thats the reason you make the > > purchase. Now ask the question-why doesn't the bio tech industry want > > labeling? I would suggest that the reason is that most of the products > > they have brought on line have no perceived benefits and may actually have > > negative factors associated with them to the ultimate consumer. So when > > that is the case they fight labeling because they do not want an informed > > public being able to make that choice. Let's look at bovine growth hormone > > sold by Monsanto. They did everything possible with FDA help to keep > > people in the dark(The mushroom complex) They fed us a lot of horse manure > > and kept us in the dark as much as possible. There is absolutely no > > benefit to drinking milk with the artificial bovine growth hormone. In > > fact there are reasons why you would not want to drink it with respect to > > social and environmental issues. From a health standpoint there are > > potential risks. Harvard based studies has shown that levels of IGF-1 > > influences the risk of getting breast and prostrate cancer. Levels of > > IGF-1 in normal milk are 1-9 nanograms/ml and with rbgh is 1-13. Women > > with high levels of IGF-1 are 7X more likely to get breast cancer than > > women with low levels and in men it is 4X more prostrate cancer. So you > > can see why Monsanto does not want an informed public on this issue. > > > > When bio tech products benefit the consumer it will be easy to separate the > > products, foods or commodities. For example suppose that some food could > > eliminate Alzheimer and could do it at a very reasonable price. I do not > > think we would hear that it is too expensive to segregate. > > > > Suppose for example that Pioneer was able to genetically engineer corn that > > had the same effect as Viagra on men. Suppose also that there were no > > other problems, no side effects and no environmental problems. Suppose > > also that 25 g of corn flakes provided the effect and it cost only $2.00. > > Do you think Pioneer would say it is too expensive to separate? The obvious > > answer is a big NO. And why would that be the case? Because it would be > > in their interest to segregate and it would be beneficial and profitable to > > them. I know this maybe an outrageous example but it gets the point(no > > pun intended) across. > > > > Sleep on that one. > > > > Bill Liebhardt > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 09:08:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20523 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28947 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:45:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28924 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:45:28 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.161]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:45:28 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991216074519.007d1700@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:45:19 -0600 To: Subject: USDA's Version of Food Safety? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 677 >From http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-15-09.html "...'Irradiated fats tend to become rancid." (??more quickly??) "Even at low doses, some irradiated foods lose 20 percent of sensitive vitamins such as C, E, K, and B complex,' the association says. Ionizing radiation is so powerful that it knocks electrons out of atoms and creates free radicals, the group and other critics claim. "These free radicals react with food components, creating new radiolytic products, some of which are toxic - benzene, formaldehyde, lipid peroxides - and some of which may be unique to irradiated foods." Studies on animals fed irradiated foods have shown increased tumors, reproductive failures and kidney damage, the group claims." Irradiation is another example of a technology searching for a problem to justify it's existence. What happened to steam autoclaving so recently touted as the solution to 0157 in meats caused by fecal contamination in the packing plants? What about cleaning up the meat packing operation in the first place? Didn't a Purdue or Cornell study show the 0157 problem could be solved by switching from corn to grass and allowing the animal's digestive track to return to normal a few weeks before slaughter? Just what we need, food with even fewer essential nutrients and more free radicals than that which industrial ag is producing now. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 09:37:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20887 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14362 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:19:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us (kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us [162.114.136.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14335 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:19:09 -0500 (EST) From: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Received: by kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:22:47 -0500 Message-ID: To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: USDA's Version of Food Safety? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:06:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 678 Actually, the study showed that as little as 5 DAYS of grass or hay rather than intensive grain feeding returned the rumen to its normal acidic state, and 0157 can't survive in that environment. Even if we can't (or won't) force the packing plants to clean up their act, we could stop 0157 at the source, but it's too simple, and too 'cheap' a solution. We believe it just gives us another tool in marketing our organic, grass finished beef. Alison Wiediger Au Naturel Farm Smiths Grove, KY > Didn't a Purdue or Cornell study show the 0157 problem could be solved by > switching from corn to grass and allowing the animal's digestive track to > return to normal a few weeks before slaughter? > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 09:53:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21208 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22441 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:30:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22406 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.49]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 8562000 ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:30:07 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991216093204.007a45f0@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:32:04 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: rBST FREE labeling is alive and well In-Reply-To: <199912152310.SAA06268@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 679 >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:07:48 -0800 >From: William Evans >Subject: rBST FREE labeling is alive and wellRe: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1483 > >. Some how Monsanto seems> to have gotten the gov. to make it illegal >to label milk as free of added >> hormones. This has always troubled me > In California state at leaaast, ther's lots of dairy products labled " >rBST FREE" ....is any other state /country really different???? > Here in MA we work with a dairy cooperative that states on its carton that "all of our cows are raised with care and love, and not treated with rbST." The state has no problem with that. The only people I have heard complain about that language are other dairy farmers who say that the cooperative should not put that language on the carton because it makes other dairy farmers look bad. Is safe to presume that these "other farmers" are using rbST then? What's to keep them from not using it and putting it on their cartons?? Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 10:26:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21775 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08627 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:06:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lobster.eky.com (root@lobster.eky.com [209.211.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08546 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from halsdesktop (ip3-36.eky.com [209.211.3.36]) by lobster.eky.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19663; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:06:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Hal Hamilton" To: "Sanet" , "IFFS" Subject: FW: Externalities of UK agriculture Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 680 -----Original Message----- From: Jules Pretty [mailto:jpretty@essex.ac.uk] Subject: Externalities of UK agriculture Dear all Thought you might like to see today's New Scientist report and leader. Details of our work (Essex Univ, Euro Envt Agency, RSPB, CLM) on the externalities of UK agriculture. Total annual costs - £2.3 bn; equal to £200+ per ha. Merry Christmas to one and all - and don't ponder too long on those external costs whilst munching on mince pies, turkey, plum pudding etc. Warmest regards Jules http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/newsstory4.html http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/editorial.html *************************************************** Professor Jules Pretty Director, Centre for Environment and Society University of Essex Wivenhoe Park Colchester CO4 3SQ, UK Tel: +44-(0)1206-873323 Fax: +44-(0)1206-873416 E-mail: jpretty@essex.ac.uk Website: http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ **************************************************** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 10:59:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22410 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17120 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:19:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (farida.a2000.nl [62.108.1.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17113 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11ych6-0007SK-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:19:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3859089E.206B95F9@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:43:26 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Spraying Bt Corn References: <19991216144657994.AGX259.258@[208.141.36.73]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 681 Biotech Activists wrote: > ================================ > >From List: Biotech Activists (biotech_activists@iatp.org) > Date Posted: 12/16/1999 > Posted by: stauber@compuserve.com > ================================ > > > > NEWS 18/12/99 > > This week's stories > from New Scientist > available online. > > > > Keep that spray > > Crops made resistant to pests still do > better with chemicals > > FARMERS may need to douse their fields > with yet more pesticides to > get the best out of genetically modified > plants. At least, that's the > implication of patent applications filed > by Novartis of Basle in Switzerland, > one of the leading companies in the field. > > The applications (WO 99/35910 and WO > 99/35913) were filed after > scientists at Novartis realised that a > wide spectrum of insect pests was > attacking Bt maize, its major GM crop. > Genes inserted into the maize > enable it to make the Bt toxin, a > bacterial protein that kills European corn > borer larvae. These larvae chew their way > into the stems of young maize > plants and can kill them before they get > established. > > But many GM plants that saw off the borer > larvae were later attacked by > sap-sucking insects. "Bt toxin has a > rather narrow spectrum of activity, so > you don't get control of all pests," says > Walter Smolders, head of patents > at Novartis Seeds. > > To find a way round the problem, Novartis > scientists tried applying > different combinations of the company's > pesticides to the Bt maize. Their > patents identify combinations of > pesticides that could raise yields of the > maize by 20 per cent. > > The same pesticides appear to increase the > yields of other GM plants, > including those engineered to resist the > effects of herbicides. So > Novartis has extended its patents to cover > use of the pesticides on a > long list of transgenic crops including > maize, cereals, soya beans, > potatoes, rice, cotton and mustard. If the > patents are granted, this means > they will also apply to crops from > competitors such as Monsanto of St > Louis, Missouri. > > Heinz Hammann, head of patents in > Novartis's crop protection division, > claims the pesticides mentioned in the > patents are mostly > environmentally benign, killing only the > pests which attack the plants. > Maize, for example, is vulnerable to > sapsuckers such as the flea beetle > (Phyllotreta agriotes) and various aphids. > "Non-target species don't > suck the plants, so they're not harmed," > he says. > > But some of the pesticides are less > friendly. Carbamates, for example, act > on the nervous system of pests and are > known to affect birds, fish, game, > bees, mammals and other farmland wildlife. > And given that agribiotech > firms have consistently argued that GM > crops will reduce pesticide use, > Novartis's patent applications are sure to > be seized upon by groups that > oppose the technology. > > Brian Johnson, head of the biotechnology > advisory unit at English > Nature, a conservation watchdog, says he > wants to see evidence > confirming Novartis's suggestion that the > use of pesticides on GM crops > outlined in its patent applications will > be less environmentally damaging > than conventional chemical treatment of > ordinary maize. "It's the impact of > the whole process on biodiversity that > counts," he says. "But the impacts > of what they are proposing are not known.." > > Andy Coghlan and Barry Fox > > From New Scientist, 18 > December 1999 > > ================================ > How to Use this Mailing List > ================================ > > You received this e-mail as a result of your registration on the biotech_activists mailing list. > > To unsubscribe, please send an email to listserv@iatp.org. In the body of the message type: > unsubscribe biotech_activists > > To post messages, send email to biotech_activists@iatp.org. > > For a list of other commands and list options, please send email to listserv@iatp.org. > In the body of the message type: > help > > For other questions email support@iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 11:00:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22751 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21612 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:34:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (gaes.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21594 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sareace6 (sareace6.Griffin.PeachNet.EDU [168.26.248.69]) by gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA03096 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:34:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912161534.KAA03096@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu> From: "John Mayne" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:35:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Southern SARE Producer Grant Special Marketing Call for Proposals Reply-to: jmayne@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 682 SOUTHERN REGION SARE PROGRAM and the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service announce: The 2000 Southern Region SARE Producer Grant Program Special Marketing Call for Proposals has been released. PROPOSALS MUST BE RECEIVED BY 5:00 PM JANUARY 28,2000 The Southern SARE Producer Grant Special Marketing Call for Proposals is designed to encourage farmers, ranchers and farmer/rancher/producer organizations in the Southern Region to conduct marketing projects to promote sustainable agriculture. The Southern Region includes: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands. The Southern SARE Producer Grant Special Marketing Grants are awarded for a maximum of $10,000 for individual producers or $15,000 for producer organizations, are competitive, and the projects must promote sustainable agriculture. This Special Marketing Call for Proposals is an addition to the 2000 Southern SARE Producer Grant Call for Proposals--released in September 1999--that requests on-farm research projects conducted by farmers, ranchers and farmer/rancher organizations that promote sustainable agriculture. Proposals for both Calls for Proposals must be received by 5:00 PM January 28, 2000. Full information can be found in the Southern SARE Producer Grant Special Marketing Call for Proposals. For a copy of the Southern SARE Producer Grant Special Marketing Call for Proposals please call: (770) 412-4787 or download from the Southern SARE Website at http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare If you have any questions about the Southern SARE Producer Grant Program, please contact: John C. Mayne, Ph.D. Southern SARE Program 1109 Experiment Street Griffin, GA 30223 PH: (770) 229-3350 FX: (770) 412-4789 jmayne@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 11:00:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23339 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22822; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22597 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.109.alltel.net [166.102.67.109]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA05266; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:57:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:55:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 683 Anita Graf writes: >Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), >the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors >themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to >contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > >> >>> >> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced >> >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick >> >and >> >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on >> >their >> >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of >> >little >> >>lip prints. >> > >> >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. >> >> >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the >> >>maintenance man. >> >> >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem >> >for >> >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. >> > >> >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the >> >maintenance guy to >> >>clean one of the mirrors. >> >> >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then >> >>cleaned the mirror. >> > >> >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. >> > >> >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! >> > Dear Anita and List Readers, I have no doubt that at most Waldorf schools that Germanic disciplinary ethic you describe would have prevailed. However, I don't doubt that some further lip prints would have been considered, committed in the privacy of an empty bathroom like the other grafitti on the walls. This principal may have been thinking of such when she came up with a method that ensured no further lip prints. I am reminded of someone telling me the other day about a television presentation that, by way of hidden cameras, documented some of the gross and awful things food workers do to food when they are sure no one is looking. Yes, as you might guess, contamination with mucous, serum, excreta and sexual fluids. Really gross and dangerous stuff, done at various levels of concealed hatred, resentment and revenge. Quite frequently I mention to folks that when I'm on the road I like to eat at a Waffle House or some such equivalent (not available on the West Coast) because I can see them preparing my food. Not one in ten folks evince any real understanding of what I might be talking about, but it isn't just that I can see my food escapes microwaving. I've been involved in food handling for over 25 years and I suspect I'm not particularly naive about people and their various possible behaviors. I'm not so eager to eat somewhere that the food workers can smear my cinnamon toast with feces or blood or expectorate/ejaculate in my salad dressing. Believe me I DO understand how disgusting this is. But, pray, let me not shrink from exposing it. It is just this kind of awareness I believe should be part and parcel of this and other lists. The fact is that a very low, sleazy vibe prevails out there in America and it is getting lower all the time. It is a covertly hostile vibe, and is particularly prevalent amongst employees of the government, but something similar goes for wage slaves in general. Covert. Hostility. It is something to think about. Most people eating out--and people eat out in droves, particularly in chain restaurants and fast food dives in America--have very little idea of what they may be eating. Ever wonder why you had an off flavor in something you just ate? Well, did you see it being prepared? Think about it. The same goes for processed foods. I suppose I may provoke another round of censure for my occasionally not too genteel posts. So? Despite my highly refined sophistication I deal daily without shrinking with really gutsy stuff. For some people out of sight probably IS out of mind. But for me? Hardly. Violet IS one of my favorite colors, but there also is a lot of brown and black in biodynamic practice. I think it is something we all have to learn to deal with. So wipe the tops of your pop-top cans clean before opening and hope you got a batch that wasn't contaminated on the interior. And consider--the above is good reason, as if chemical agriculture wasn't enough, to grow your own gardens or participate in a CSA and learn sufficient culinary skills to prepare your foods and beverages at home. It is your assurance of quality. I don't know if you have any real assurance otherwise. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 11:16:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23905 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03461 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:57:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03430 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.109.alltel.net [166.102.67.109]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA05266; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:57:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:55:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 Anita Graf writes: >Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), >the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors >themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to >contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > >> >>> >> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced >> >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick >> >and >> >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on >> >their >> >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of >> >little >> >>lip prints. >> > >> >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. >> >> >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the >> >>maintenance man. >> >> >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem >> >for >> >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. >> > >> >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the >> >maintenance guy to >> >>clean one of the mirrors. >> >> >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then >> >>cleaned the mirror. >> > >> >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. >> > >> >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! >> > Dear Anita and List Readers, I have no doubt that at most Waldorf schools that Germanic disciplinary ethic you describe would have prevailed. However, I don't doubt that some further lip prints would have been considered, committed in the privacy of an empty bathroom like the other grafitti on the walls. This principal may have been thinking of such when she came up with a method that ensured no further lip prints. I am reminded of someone telling me the other day about a television presentation that, by way of hidden cameras, documented some of the gross and awful things food workers do to food when they are sure no one is looking. Yes, as you might guess, contamination with mucous, serum, excreta and sexual fluids. Really gross and dangerous stuff, done at various levels of concealed hatred, resentment and revenge. Quite frequently I mention to folks that when I'm on the road I like to eat at a Waffle House or some such equivalent (not available on the West Coast) because I can see them preparing my food. Not one in ten folks evince any real understanding of what I might be talking about, but it isn't just that I can see my food escapes microwaving. I've been involved in food handling for over 25 years and I suspect I'm not particularly naive about people and their various possible behaviors. I'm not so eager to eat somewhere that the food workers can smear my cinnamon toast with feces or blood or expectorate/ejaculate in my salad dressing. Believe me I DO understand how disgusting this is. But, pray, let me not shrink from exposing it. It is just this kind of awareness I believe should be part and parcel of this and other lists. The fact is that a very low, sleazy vibe prevails out there in America and it is getting lower all the time. It is a covertly hostile vibe, and is particularly prevalent amongst employees of the government, but something similar goes for wage slaves in general. Covert. Hostility. It is something to think about. Most people eating out--and people eat out in droves, particularly in chain restaurants and fast food dives in America--have very little idea of what they may be eating. Ever wonder why you had an off flavor in something you just ate? Well, did you see it being prepared? Think about it. The same goes for processed foods. I suppose I may provoke another round of censure for my occasionally not too genteel posts. So? Despite my highly refined sophistication I deal daily without shrinking with really gutsy stuff. For some people out of sight probably IS out of mind. But for me? Hardly. Violet IS one of my favorite colors, but there also is a lot of brown and black in biodynamic practice. I think it is something we all have to learn to deal with. So wipe the tops of your pop-top cans clean before opening and hope you got a batch that wasn't contaminated on the interior. And consider--the above is good reason, as if chemical agriculture wasn't enough, to grow your own gardens or participate in a CSA and learn sufficient culinary skills to prepare your foods and beverages at home. It is your assurance of quality. I don't know if you have any real assurance otherwise. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 12:15:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26387 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA27753 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:44:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailserv.ciwmb.ca.gov ([156.41.30.32]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27701 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by MAILSERV with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:37:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36FDE5F58290D111A15E00A0C9983409036A2FB1@MAILSERV> From: "Storelli, Stephen" To: "'sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: State of California Issues Request for Proposals Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:37:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 685 California Integrated Waste Management Board Approves $250,000 for Compost & Mulch Field Demonstration Projects The California Integrated Waste Management Board (Board) has recently approved the release of a Request for Proposals (RFP) to solicit projects that will demonstrate the beneficial end-uses of municipal compost and mulch. The Board anticipates making several awards with no individual project funded in excess of $80,000. Awards will be offered to the highest bidder with subsequent awards being given to the second highest and so on depending on availability of remaining funds. Acceptable proposals will illustrate the benefits of using compost and mulch and must meet the following criteria: * Projects must be located in California. * Proposals will only be accepted from public institutions. Public institutions in this context are defined as universities, state agencies, local governments, and other associated organizations and special districts including Resource Conservation Districts. Public institutions however are encouraged to partner with end-users of compost and mulch and other private entities while acting as project leads. Acceptable proposals are encouraged to explore innovative uses of compost and mulch by end-users for such applications as revegetation, environmental restoration, bioremediation, wetlands restoration, erosion control, integrated pest management, and other agricultural and non-agricultural applications. Application packets for this solicitation will be available December 27th 1999 and can be requested via fax at (916) 255-1107. Proposals are due Feb. 24th 2000. Award of contracts will be announced in April. For more detailed information on this solicitation, please visit the California Integrated Waste Management Board's website at www.ciwmb.ca.gov/organics/specialprojects/demofund.htm. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 12:17:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26421 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00905 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:48:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from herndon3.his.com (root@herndon3.his.com [209.67.207.6]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00821 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from vienna5.his.com (root@vienna5.his.com [216.200.68.8]) by herndon3.his.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07345 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ruth-goldstein (ws1.vancomm.com [209.8.22.66]) by vienna5.his.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA23231 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:43:40 -0500 Message-ID: <01BF47BA.CC76F360.rgoldstein@communitymediadc.org> From: Ruth Goldstein Reply-To: "rgoldstein@communitymediadc.org" To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: American Farmland Trust Info Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:43:36 -0500 Organization: Community Media X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 686 American Farmland Trust can be reached in Washington at (202) 331-7300 or on their website at www.farmland.org. Ruth Goldstein -----Original Message----- From: sanet-mg-digest [SMTP:owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 10:21 AM To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1485 sanet-mg-digest Thursday, December 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1485 In this issue: Re: media looking for contact Rotenone Hazards? Re: Rotenone Hazards? docuemnts (fwd) Re: Source for New Zealand-type electric fence charger needed. Re: More Monsanto, etc. Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) Re: De-commodification (was: GMO labeling) Re: GMO labels USDA's Version of Food Safety? RE: USDA's Version of Food Safety? rBST FREE labeling is alive and well FW: Externalities of UK agriculture Re: Spraying Bt Corn See the end of the digest for information about sanet-mg-digest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:00:51 -0800 From: "Hook Family" Subject: Re: media looking for contact Michael, This is just someplace to look. I think its on the American Farmland Trust Web Page. This is a organization that attempts to preserve farmland. I think I read somewhere (could have been a link) that there are house developement plans that preserve green spaces/farms. But anyway they might be an organization to check with. Beth > I am working with a journalist who is working on a follow-up story from the > California Farm Conference, on the topic of building the urban-rural > connection. > > She is wondering if anyone out there has worked "to educate urban building > trades unions about the downside of developing farmland (just as > environmentalists have had to dialogue with > loggers.)" > > If you know of any individuals or organizations working along these lines, > please forward me their contact information. > > Many thanks! > > Michael > > ++++++++++++++ > Michael Straus > Beyond Organic - Innovative Marketing & Public Relations for Progressive > Agriculture > 22890 Highway 1, Marshall, CA 94940 USA > phone: 415-663-8343; fax: 415-663-8346 > www.beyondorganic.com; info@beyondorganic.com > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:20:00 -0600 From: mmiller@pcsia.com Subject: Rotenone Hazards? What does anybody know about the safety of rotenone? How fast does it degrade and can it be absorbed into body via skin or lungs? Being an equal opportunity skeptic, the report below raises some concern about the use of this natural material and any synthetic analogues in food production. Below are relevant parts of an article referenced to an article in JAMA entitled Pesticide Study Aids Parkinson Research. See http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v282n23/full/jmn1215-4.html Mike Miller - who now thanks to the USDA can glow in the dark after eating "beef, pork or lamb" :>)) snip ... Rotenone, which is not selective in this manner, kills neurons whether or not they carry a dopamine transporter and, therefore, was used to investigate whether systemic inhibition of complex I would cause selective neurodegeneration. Rotenone is a common insecticide, said Greenamyre, that is perceived in many quarters as relatively innocuous. "On the Internet it is touted as an organic or natural alternative to synthetic pesticides because it is a natural product. It's often used in reservoirs in the United States and to kill nuisance fish." snip... Greenamyre said the results of his team's investigation indicate that systemic administration of rotenone brings about selective retrograde degeneration of the nigrostriatal system and mimics the slowly progressive course of PD. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:08:53 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? Mike, Rotenone is a nerve agent. That's why it's such a good insecticide. It (and other botanical insecticides) are also dangerous to vertebrates (last time I looked I was one). They will cause nerve damage, at least. What they have going for them is that they degrade in the environment in 24 hours or so. They're not on "allowable" lists for certified organic farmers- they're on the "restricted" list. This means they may be used to save a crop and use must be justified to the certifying agency on a case by case basis. I don't use them (and advise others not to) for 2 reasons- First, they're dangerous for the user. I counsel people to use them in a water solution if they must. This keeps the dust down and the product out of the lungs. Second, even though they are botanicals, they are still broad spectrum insecticides. They will kill the predators as well as the pest insects. This results in throwing the insect ecosystem way out of balance. And the predator population takes a lot longer to rebuild. So, in the long run, you're doing more damage than good. I don't know if anyone has looked at the effect of these botanicals on the soil life- couldn't be good. Anybody out there know about this? Alex mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > What does anybody know about the safety of rotenone? How fast does it > degrade and can it be absorbed into body via skin or lungs? Being an equal > opportunity skeptic, the report below raises some concern about the use of > this natural material and any synthetic analogues in food production. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Subject: docuemnts (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:09:51 GMT+1 From: abdelkader ibnelazyz To: London@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: docuemnts Ecole Natinale D'agriculture de meknes BP s/40 Meknes Morocco Email-ibnelazyz@caramail.com hello, I m student in national school of agricultur, in ordzer to obtain Engeneer grad in agronomic science speciality of plant pathology, a have to find a study or reseach entitled: Plant Grouth Rhizobacteria used in biocontrol of Downy mildiew in vitro and under field conditions caused by Plasmopara halstedii and Phytophtora infestans" For this subject, I need some articls of reseach about Bacteria used in biocontrol of plant pthogens, i ask you about some documents a,nd ihave receved yaour emil in review. In the end thank you verry much for yor cooperation. ______________________________________________________ Boite aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:31:24 -1000 From: Glenn Subject: Re: Source for New Zealand-type electric fence charger needed. Dear Lawrence, Pell and Gallagher are two companies that manufacture electronic control modules for electric fencing. My memory says they're both out of New Zealand, and the literature I've read makes claims for controlling wild game animals including deer. Both companies make several models with a range of specs. including working off batteries. Will you do me a favor? Ask the farmer you're passing this info on to to please check local suppliers before attempting to mail order. The maintenance issues come into play, and a local dealer will probably be able to answer questions and make suggestions for specific fence design in the area. Buying locally strengthens the dealer and hopefully, the local community. Local patronage helps keep the dealers in business so other small farmers and ranchers can continue to patronize them. You know, the sustainability thing. For me, it's the same as buying food from the local farmer. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com > Can anyone recommend specific brands of New Zealand-type electric > fence chargers to use for deer control? I need the model that runs off > a battery that can be recharged with a trickle charger or a solar array. > A 3 joule model is the minimum capacity required. What are recommended > mail order sources? > > Many thanks, > > Lawrence > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:18:02 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver Subject: Re: More Monsanto, etc. I just received the regular publication that I get, from Leopold Center in Iowa,and during an interview with farmers, sure enough, the Monsanto kind of dealings came up. People are certainly aware of they want to be. Bluestem Associates wrote: > Forwarded from Natural Food Merchandiser (online): > > ========== > > Monsanto Co. helped pay for a demonstration in favor of > genetically modified organisms in Washington, D.C., > according to a published report. About 100 members of a > Baptist church got a check from the biotech giant, an > organizer of the protest said. > > Scientists say they've found a way to genetically alter > young hogs so they grow much faster and larger than normal > swine, as reported nationally this week. Less noticed was a > report about a new hog-production system that promises > tastier pork, less damage to the environment and the > potential for greater profits among independent farmers. > That system would eschew modern factory farms. > > =========== > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:52:54 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) Evrybody please note--this man says , too, that cancer is now half the population== 1 in 2, he says. When I said that here, without data to prove it, I got a slap, but Dr. Nigh did have the info. Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:07 EST > From: SCook21809@aol.com > Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org > To: osalt@teleport.com > Subject: Re: Off subject? > > Yes Will, > > CSAs will be affected by WTO. > If you ask any Biologist monitoring life on the planet they will tell > you we are entering a period of "mass extinction". Loss of habitat and > degradation of the environment is quickly decreasing the diversity of life > forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a > health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket > from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there > won't be any question about if you will have a cancer diagnosis. Rather, > will you notice your cancers in time for treatment? Add to this the genesis > of an Evil Empire euphemistically called free trade and boy do we have a > problem. > Does racing for the cure give us time to observe the causes and take > action to prevent them? Does fighting an unsustainable system give us > resources to create a sustainable alternative? I believe we need to focus on > filling the glass the rest of the way rather than grapple with the gross > exteriors of who is responsible for partially emptying it. We all deny > culpability. > On closer inspection of the hand I use to point a finger at someone else > I always find three fingers pointing back at me. "We have met the > enemy...and he is us." I need to learn to save seed better. I need to teach > more people about composting and growing more food on less land. I need to > find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. Most of all I need to > learn to interact and cooperate with my neighbors toward common goals. > How do I want to spend the rest of my life? Because now is the only > promise I have. > > Focus! > > Art Biggert > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:03 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver Subject: Re: De-commodification (was: GMO labeling) It seems so clear to me, Dale Wilson, that my original impression of you here is exactly what I thought. Anyone can see on whose side you are. Wilson, Dale wrote: > Gary, > > > Dale, you say it is expensive to segregate "commodities". > > Your choice of words detail the problem. People do not eat > > commodities, they eat food. > > If you had 1000 tons of wheat in your backyard, you too would probably think > of it differently than the granola in your breakfast bowl. The seed > industry would be quite happy if grains were de-commodified. We would like > to see the identity of our genetic products preserved, because the users of > the grain would be willing to pay for the quality and health attributes we > are developing. Probably, identity preservation will become common, but the > transition is difficult. > > > It has an emotional and cultural connection for them, something > > the conventional food business has forgot. Agri-culture. > > Not really. The processors and repackagers haven't forgot. The big grain > handlers sell to the food companies, who try to connect with consumers. > > > Perhaps the food business should listen to their customers. > > They are always right, no matter how you think they are wrong. > > I agree completely. But right now, it isn't clear what the customers want > regarding transgenic foods. This controversy will facilitate > de-commodification. > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:42:05 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver Subject: Re: GMO labels what I want to know is, how does the non-GM do the job of upsetting what the GM does? wytze wrote: > Your Viagra-corn example is right on. This actually is the case with Zeneca's > GE tomato that's being grown in California. This tomato is grown completely > separated from non GE tomatos. Why? A Zenecarepresentative explained: the GE > tomato would loose it's GE when it crosses with non GE tomatos. (Maybe an idea > for California based activist: put some non-GE tomatoseeds in the GE tomato > fields) > Wytze de Lange > > Bill Liebhardt wrote: > > > When we buy any product we are not buying the product but the perceived > > benefit. Think about anything you buy or would like to buy and it is the > > benefits you really are thinking about and thats the reason you make the > > purchase. Now ask the question-why doesn't the bio tech industry want > > labeling? I would suggest that the reason is that most of the products > > they have brought on line have no perceived benefits and may actually have > > negative factors associated with them to the ultimate consumer. So when > > that is the case they fight labeling because they do not want an informed > > public being able to make that choice. Let's look at bovine growth hormone > > sold by Monsanto. They did everything possible with FDA help to keep > > people in the dark(The mushroom complex) They fed us a lot of horse manure > > and kept us in the dark as much as possible. There is absolutely no > > benefit to drinking milk with the artificial bovine growth hormone. In > > fact there are reasons why you would not want to drink it with respect to > > social and environmental issues. From a health standpoint there are > > potential risks. Harvard based studies has shown that levels of IGF-1 > > influences the risk of getting breast and prostrate cancer. Levels of > > IGF-1 in normal milk are 1-9 nanograms/ml and with rbgh is 1-13. Women > > with high levels of IGF-1 are 7X more likely to get breast cancer than > > women with low levels and in men it is 4X more prostrate cancer. So you > > can see why Monsanto does not want an informed public on this issue. > > > > When bio tech products benefit the consumer it will be easy to separate the > > products, foods or commodities. For example suppose that some food could > > eliminate Alzheimer and could do it at a very reasonable price. I do not > > think we would hear that it is too expensive to segregate. > > > > Suppose for example that Pioneer was able to genetically engineer corn that > > had the same effect as Viagra on men. Suppose also that there were no > > other problems, no side effects and no environmental problems. Suppose > > also that 25 g of corn flakes provided the effect and it cost only $2.00. > > Do you think Pioneer would say it is too expensive to separate? The obvious > > answer is a big NO. And why would that be the case? Because it would be > > in their interest to segregate and it would be beneficial and profitable to > > them. I know this maybe an outrageous example but it gets the point(no > > pun intended) across. > > > > Sleep on that one. > > > > Bill Liebhardt > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:45:19 -0600 From: mmiller@pcsia.com Subject: USDA's Version of Food Safety? >From http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-15-09.html "...'Irradiated fats tend to become rancid." (??more quickly??) "Even at low doses, some irradiated foods lose 20 percent of sensitive vitamins such as C, E, K, and B complex,' the association says. Ionizing radiation is so powerful that it knocks electrons out of atoms and creates free radicals, the group and other critics claim. "These free radicals react with food components, creating new radiolytic products, some of which are toxic - benzene, formaldehyde, lipid peroxides - and some of which may be unique to irradiated foods." Studies on animals fed irradiated foods have shown increased tumors, reproductive failures and kidney damage, the group claims." Irradiation is another example of a technology searching for a problem to justify it's existence. What happened to steam autoclaving so recently touted as the solution to 0157 in meats caused by fecal contamination in the packing plants? What about cleaning up the meat packing operation in the first place? Didn't a Purdue or Cornell study show the 0157 problem could be solved by switching from corn to grass and allowing the animal's digestive track to return to normal a few weeks before slaughter? Just what we need, food with even fewer essential nutrients and more free radicals than that which industrial ag is producing now. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:06:30 -0500 From: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Subject: RE: USDA's Version of Food Safety? Actually, the study showed that as little as 5 DAYS of grass or hay rather than intensive grain feeding returned the rumen to its normal acidic state, and 0157 can't survive in that environment. Even if we can't (or won't) force the packing plants to clean up their act, we could stop 0157 at the source, but it's too simple, and too 'cheap' a solution. We believe it just gives us another tool in marketing our organic, grass finished beef. Alison Wiediger Au Naturel Farm Smiths Grove, KY > Didn't a Purdue or Cornell study show the 0157 problem could be solved by > switching from corn to grass and allowing the animal's digestive track to > return to normal a few weeks before slaughter? > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:32:04 -0500 From: Mark Subject: rBST FREE labeling is alive and well >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:07:48 -0800 >From: William Evans >Subject: rBST FREE labeling is alive and wellRe: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1483 > >. Some how Monsanto seems> to have gotten the gov. to make it illegal >to label milk as free of added >> hormones. This has always troubled me > In California state at leaaast, ther's lots of dairy products labled " >rBST FREE" ....is any other state /country really different???? > Here in MA we work with a dairy cooperative that states on its carton that "all of our cows are raised with care and love, and not treated with rbST." The state has no problem with that. The only people I have heard complain about that language are other dairy farmers who say that the cooperative should not put that language on the carton because it makes other dairy farmers look bad. Is safe to presume that these "other farmers" are using rbST then? What's to keep them from not using it and putting it on their cartons?? Mark - ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:05:06 -0500 From: "Hal Hamilton" Subject: FW: Externalities of UK agriculture - -----Original Message----- From: Jules Pretty [mailto:jpretty@essex.ac.uk] Subject: Externalities of UK agriculture Dear all Thought you might like to see today's New Scientist report and leader. Details of our work (Essex Univ, Euro Envt Agency, RSPB, CLM) on the externalities of UK agriculture. Total annual costs - ?2.3 bn; equal to ?200+ per ha. Merry Christmas to one and all - and don't ponder too long on those external costs whilst munching on mince pies, turkey, plum pudding etc. Warmest regards Jules http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/newsstory4.html http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/editorial.html *************************************************** Professor Jules Pretty Director, Centre for Environment and Society University of Essex Wivenhoe Park Colchester CO4 3SQ, UK Tel: +44-(0)1206-873323 Fax: +44-(0)1206-873416 E-mail: jpretty@essex.ac.uk Website: http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ **************************************************** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:43:26 +0100 From: wytze Subject: Re: Spraying Bt Corn Biotech Activists wrote: > ================================ > >From List: Biotech Activists (biotech_activists@iatp.org) > Date Posted: 12/16/1999 > Posted by: stauber@compuserve.com > ================================ > > > > NEWS 18/12/99 > > This week's stories > from New Scientist > available online. > > > > Keep that spray > > Crops made resistant to pests still do > better with chemicals > > FARMERS may need to douse their fields > with yet more pesticides to > get the best out of genetically modified > plants. At least, that's the > implication of patent applications filed > by Novartis of Basle in Switzerland, > one of the leading companies in the field. > > The applications (WO 99/35910 and WO > 99/35913) were filed after > scientists at Novartis realised that a > wide spectrum of insect pests was > attacking Bt maize, its major GM crop. > Genes inserted into the maize > enable it to make the Bt toxin, a > bacterial protein that kills European corn > borer larvae. These larvae chew their way > into the stems of young maize > plants and can kill them before they get > established. > > But many GM plants that saw off the borer > larvae were later attacked by > sap-sucking insects. "Bt toxin has a > rather narrow spectrum of activity, so > you don't get control of all pests," says > Walter Smolders, head of patents > at Novartis Seeds. > > To find a way round the problem, Novartis > scientists tried applying > different combinations of the company's > pesticides to the Bt maize. Their > patents identify combinations of > pesticides that could raise yields of the > maize by 20 per cent. > > The same pesticides appear to increase the > yields of other GM plants, > including those engineered to resist the > effects of herbicides. So > Novartis has extended its patents to cover > use of the pesticides on a > long list of transgenic crops including > maize, cereals, soya beans, > potatoes, rice, cotton and mustard. If the > patents are granted, this means > they will also apply to crops from > competitors such as Monsanto of St > Louis, Missouri. > > Heinz Hammann, head of patents in > Novartis's crop protection division, > claims the pesticides mentioned in the > patents are mostly > environmentally benign, killing only the > pests which attack the plants. > Maize, for example, is vulnerable to > sapsuckers such as the flea beetle > (Phyllotreta agriotes) and various aphids. > "Non-target species don't > suck the plants, so they're not harmed," > he says. > > But some of the pesticides are less > friendly. Carbamates, for example, act > on the nervous system of pests and are > known to affect birds, fish, game, > bees, mammals and other farmland wildlife. > And given that agribiotech > firms have consistently argued that GM > crops will reduce pesticide use, > Novartis's patent applications are sure to > be seized upon by groups that > oppose the technology. > > Brian Johnson, head of the biotechnology > advisory unit at English > Nature, a conservation watchdog, says he > wants to see evidence > confirming Novartis's suggestion that the > use of pesticides on GM crops > outlined in its patent applications will > be less environmentally damaging > than conventional chemical treatment of > ordinary maize. "It's the impact of > the whole process on biodiversity that > counts," he says. "But the impacts > of what they are proposing are not known.." > > Andy Coghlan and Barry Fox > > From New Scientist, 18 > December 1999 > > ================================ > How to Use this Mailing List > ================================ > > You received this e-mail as a result of your registration on the biotech_activists mailing list. > > To unsubscribe, please send an email to listserv@iatp.org. In the body of the message type: > unsubscribe biotech_activists > > To post messages, send email to biotech_activists@iatp.org. > > For a list of other commands and list options, please send email to listserv@iatp.org. > In the body of the message type: > help > > For other questions email support@iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail ------------------------------ End of sanet-mg-digest V1 #1485 ******************************* To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the comannd "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 12:25:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26511 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14873 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f61.hotmail.com [207.82.251.195]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14774 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 99792 invoked by uid 0); 16 Dec 1999 17:09:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19991216170941.99791.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.173.73.87 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:09:41 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.173.73.87] From: "J. S." To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Graduate Study--Help!! Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:09:41 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 687 Hi, I thought I had sent this out before but now I think maybe I made a mistake(Thanks, Glenn, very much for your earlier reply.) I am currently working for the small grains breeder at Virginia,but will be going to the Netherlands ( at Wageningen) this summer to begin a master's degree in Ecological Agriculture. My undergraduate degree is in something called Earth Systems and I am very interested in systemic and integrated solutions and perspectives. I am particularly interested in the application of research and in extension work--basically I want to work to help farmers and others to become more sustainable, solving conflicts between competing environmental and human needs. I am looking for any help and advice you all can give me towards this end--both specifically for graduate work (what to focus on, areas of underdeveloped knowledge) and for work I plan to do afterwards (where is help in creating sustainable systems needed most?). I feel eager to get out of academia and to start making things happen but I feel that I need to gain some more knowledge first( both so that I can make good solutions and so that people will hire me!) I do not as yet have a project but would very much like to do my research in Latvia--looking at managing abandoned farm lands(from seizures from the commmunist era). Can anyone give me advice about structuring such a project or on whom to contact to obtain funding and support(financial aid does not seem to extend out of country). I am also willing to cooperate with any institutions or individuals who are looking for someone to carry out research in developing sustainable farming systems! Sanet has been a wonderful source of help, knowledge and inspiration for me and I want to thank you all for that as well as thanking you in advance for you help. Any thoughts, comments or questions are very welcome. ( and sorry for the length) thank you, Jane ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 13:57:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29201 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27644 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:31:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27564 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10849 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eweigel@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ETYU7XXK; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:30:08 EST To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:03:27 -0700 Subject: Effective Microorganisms Message-ID: <19991216.111245.3518.1.eweigel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,10,16,21,27,29-32 From: Edna M Weigel Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 688 A friend gave me some information on EM supplied by EM Technologies, Inc. in Tucson, AZ. According to their literature, at least one of their foumulations is patented but they are a non-profit organization. They credit Dr. Teruo Higa in Okinawa, Japan for developing EM. My reaction to reading their material was positive, but on the skeptical side. I have no idea what the products cost, but other than a possible hit to the wallet, I doubt if they do any harm (in contrast to many other products a farmer can spend his money on). If they do nothing but help a farmer/gardener resolve not to use biocides (which would kill the EM's he/she paid good money for), they can be VERY valuable. From a gardener's point of view, I wonder if the products they sell supply anything a good organic soil won't already have, or that can't be supplied by a good application of compost. On the other hand,as they suggest, it might very well be useful on a sterile soil that has previously been treated with chemical fertilizers and pesticides. (Would it be any better than compost?) Part of my skepticism comes from their suggestion that, unless it is necessary to economize, the soil be treated prior to planting, with planting, every 3-4 weeks during growth, and when the residue is turned under. If those organisims are so effective, why aren't they busy reproducing themselves making re-inoculation unnecessary? My friend is considering it for an institutional setting for composting food waste and I can see some potential value simply in letting the "commercial hype" convince the administrators they really can compost. (I gather that technical support is available if they have problems.) It might even make it easier for them to compost, which certainly has value. I wonder if any SANETers have experience or knowledge about EM Technologies' various formulations. I look forward to any information you might provide. Sincerely, Edna ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 14:01:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29273 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04486 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:43:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from umc-mail01.missouri.edu (umc-mail01.missouri.edu [128.206.10.216]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04480 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by umc-mail01.missouri.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:43:38 -0600 Message-ID: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953C30@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> From: "Webb, Kevin" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Community Food Security Coalition Subject: Will big business gobble up Ben and Jerry's? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:43:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id NAA04481 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 689 >From Salon.com. To see full article go to: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/16/ben_and_jerry/index.html Will big business gobble up Ben and Jerry's? A protest movement tries to make sure that Cherry Garcia is never owned by Nestlé. - - - - - - - - - - - - By Kenneth Rapoza Dec. 16, 1999 | BOSTON -- Ben & Jerry's Homemade Inc., the Vermont ice cream company with a social conscience, is having a hard time doing well while doing good. So with the company's stock price sagging, multinational ice-cream manufacturers are trying to scoop up the struggling firm. On Dec. 2 the company announced that it had received acquisition offers from four firms: Unilever NV, Nestlé, Diageo of Britain (makers of arch rival H?agen-Daz) and Italy's Roncadin. Ben and Jerry's stock climbed 8 points on the news. Kevin Webb Food Circles Networking Project Department of Rural Sociology University of Missouri-Columbia 105 Sociology Columbia, MO 65211 (573) 882-3776 [573] 882=1473 (fax) webbk@missouri.edu On the web at: http://www.foodcircles.missouri.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 17:32:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03737 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA28584 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:09:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28558 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-243ppp213.epix.net [205.238.243.213]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id RAA08966; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:09:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38596503.3532CB90@epix.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:17:39 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com CC: mmiller@pcsia.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? References: <3.0.6.32.19991215192000.00891840@pcsia.net> <385857C5.5621C61@sprintmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 690 Alex McGregor wrote: > Mike, > > Rotenone is a nerve agent. That's why it's such a good insecticide. It (and > other botanical insecticides) are also dangerous to vertebrates (last time I > looked I was one). They will cause nerve damage, at least. What they have going > for them is that they degrade in the environment in 24 hours or so. > > They're not on "allowable" lists for certified organic farmers- they're on the > "restricted" list. This means they may be used to save a crop and use must be > justified to the certifying agency on a case by case basis. Is a certified organic grower who uses Rotenone for emergency insecticide use on vegetables required to notify consumers? Seems as though this might be in the consumers best interest. Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 18:27:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04478 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04479 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:07:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04424 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:53:03 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:02:17 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sgroff@epix.net, waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, mmiller@pcsia.com Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 691 Hi Steve, I've stayed out of this because it has been a while since I looked at the rotenone tox stuff and I do not have it on hand. The issues have mostly been stated and what it comes down to is that it is a non-specific biocide, should be very carefully used around bodies of water, is highly toxic but breaks down very fast. My opinion is that the notification issue would be moot because any residue would be long gone by the time of harvest or consumption. If the discussion continues I will try to dig up the tox stuff. Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 18:29:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04529 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10465 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:12:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailserv.ciwmb.ca.gov ([156.41.30.32]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10386 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by MAILSERV with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:05:36 -0800 Message-ID: <36FDE5F58290D111A15E00A0C9983409036A2FB9@MAILSERV> From: "Storelli, Stephen" To: "'sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Revised State of California Request for Proposals Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:05:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 692 The prior announcement for The State of California Request for Proposals is being revised and will be reissued in the next couple of days. Please check back for the updated announcement. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 19:29:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05132 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14656 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:11:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14559 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:57:35 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:06:37 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, WILSONDO@phibred.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: GMO labeling -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id TAA14566 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 693 Hey Dale, you said: *... If labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will probably say: "May contain transgenic material."* I don*t see how it can go any other way, right, wrong or indifferent novel proteins are pretty widely distributed so the whole idea of GMO free has a good chance of turning around and biting its proponents on their posteriors. We felt that the organic opportunity was to assure that no GMO seeds were used in production, that would be comparatively easy. Assuring that no pollen drift or accidently mixed seed or allowed non-organic ingredients in processed products that may have traces of novel proteins would never happened would be another organic impossible dream/fatal mistake. Ah well, another example of the organic community avoiding opportunity by digging a hole and falling into it, no surprises there. I want to go back to your post of 12/6/99 11:11am on Agricultural phase of human evolution (was: Reading on a Snowy Day). There is some rich stuff there that was either ignored or missed. You said: *I was struck by this too. It got me thinking about the long-term history of humans, and how the current transitions might be characterized (not that I am necessarily endorsing the transitions). Agriculture is apparently a fairly recent invention. Over millions of years, hunter-gatherers were at the mercy of environmental whims. They roamed all over the world, colonizing it. Then, just 10,000 years ago, agriculture took root here and there, extended families further extended, and from all this grew the great civilizations. One of these was (is) Western European sedentary farming. This supported local kings and later popular governments. Back at the height of this age, almost everyone was tied to the land (they had no choice). Now, very few people are tied to the land. Global culture, communication and travel are rapidly emerging. People are subject to the whims of global culture (operating as it were, like acts of God). They roam, going where they can to get jobs and gather resources. Local bands such as corporations and denominations provide ad-hoc community. This is becoming virtualized and delocalized. In effect, community is no longer tied to the land either. Are you sure that European-style sedentary agriculture is more desirable or more natural than hunting and roaming in the global environment? What next?* My annual Solstice Vision 1999: While I am a sedentarian, ruralist and agrarian I think that you are seeing the same thing that I am. Despite a tiny minority decrying the transition, technology is blasting us forward into uncharted waters. By the way as I have said before I believe that the recent invention, agriculture, back in the Neolithic age was and is a synthetic construct. So to me hunting and gathering in naturally selected ecosystems is the only way to be natural or get natural food. Of course if your species over populates, or if you encounter drought or flood, or another act of god you can also get pretty damn naturally hungry too. Yes the hunter gatherer image fits what seems to be emerging, consumers of opportunity moving through a virtual global environment. While there are sedentary opportunities with quasi-agrarian manifestations there is a constant Brownian motion keeping roots loose. I have presumed that the sedentary old world was a more stable place, with a more sustainable capacity! . I now seriously question that presumption. As we confront the fact, like it or not, that fewer and fewer on the ground producers are supplying more and more of the agricultural raw materials(these are much more than food stuffs they are industrial inputs also). Instead of a diversity of small medium and large farm operations we see collections at the ends of a reversed bell curve. Small part-time farms proliferate, only slightly balancing fewer and fewer larger and larger operations. That is why I continue to challenge what we think sustainability is. I don*t think that we know enough about agroecology to answer that yet. I also am beginning to think that when the thermodynamics is factored in that we may find that the solar based production of agriculture can be subsidized at a much higher level than we thought. That is providing that those subsidies do not drive the system into a pollution of the commons that results in a reduction in the productive capacities of ! the natural resource base of the landscape/watershed/bioregion. Will this possibly spawn farming operations spanning whole landscapes or watersheds using biointensive precision techniques? I don*t know, you tell me. When it comes to effectively managing the resources of watersheds might this be closer to not only efficiency but result in much less environmental impact? If such a hypothetical landscape farm included large animal production units as well as botanical crops could the nutrient cycles be effectively more closed and managed? If food processing was done within the integrated unit would that be another step in returning wastes to the agricultural system? Could such a system include high-tech eco-villages where workers, small/medium and large businesses and tela-commuters might thrive in pleasant surroundings? Or would this be another version of those brave new worlds that have been so oversold by both sides of the sustainable debate? If people are no longer tied to the land where will we go with private ownership in land, ! will that disappear? Or will it continue to co-exist with corporate or some form of cooperative ownership? If we do not begin to consider this type of option as well as the myth of the independent small farmer and his mystical return, I believe that we will miss an opportunity to ask our many questions about sustainability in a real world context. Of course we can also stick our heads in the sand or some where else where the sun don*t shine and ignore the disappearance of the yeoman farmer. The disappearing yeoman farmer upon whom our society*s delusional bucolic idyl about food production depends. Thanks for that post Dale, Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 16 18:55:43 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04792 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA21993 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:34:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21982 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA27044; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:21:11 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id HAA25700; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:52:45 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912162352.HAA25700@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 17 Dec 99 06:18:50 Subject: Re: Effective Microorganisms To: eweigel@juno.com Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 694 > I wonder if any SANETers have experience or knowledge about EM >Technologies' various formulations. I would also be very interested in an independent evaluation of EM. This formulation is widely marketed here in the Philippines, and I know organic farmers who use it, including the farm cooperative where I buy my organic rice. Roberto To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 16 18:56:02 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04801 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22100 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:35:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22006 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA27045; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:21:12 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id HAA25699; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:52:44 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912162352.HAA25699@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 17 Dec 99 05:56:57 Subject: Re: WTO Re: Off subject? (fwd) To: brateaver@earthlink.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 695 >Everybody please note--this man says , too, that cancer is now half the >population== 1 in 2, he says. When I said that here, without data to >prove it, I got a slap, but Dr. Nigh did have the info. I have seen this statistic not only on lists, but also in some printed articles, that the probability an American will develop cancer within her/his lifetime is now 1 in 2. But I have not seen so far an authoritative source cited. I imagine there's one, we've just got to search for it. Let's be careful though: 1 in 2 refers to a life-time probability. It does not mean that 1 in 2 Americans today have cancer, (but will develop cancer within his/her lifetime). -- Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 22:16:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06491 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23128 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:48:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp2.a2000.nl (utopia.a2000.nl [62.108.1.117] (may be forged)) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23069 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp2.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11ynQf-0003li-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 03:47:37 +0100 Message-ID: <3859A9D1.3F93F5AD@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:11:13 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Rogers CC: guldann@ix.netcom.com, WILSONDO@phibred.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: GMO labeling -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id VAA23083 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 696 Ted Rogers wrote: > Hey Dale, > > you said: > *... If labeling is mandated by the government, most everything on the shelf will > probably say: "May contain transgenic material."* > > I don*t see how it can go any other way, right, wrong or indifferent novel proteins are pretty widely distributed so the whole idea of GMO free has a good chance of turning around and biting its proponents on their posteriors. We felt that the organic opportunity was to assure that no GMO seeds were used in production, that would be comparatively easy. Assuring that no pollen drift or accidently mixed seed or allowed non-organic ingredients in processed products that may have traces of novel proteins would never happened would be another organic impossible dream/fatal mistake. Ah well, another example of the organic community avoiding opportunity by digging a hole and falling into it, no surprises there. > I wonder if the USDA and/or companies could be sued for the fact that they knowingly and willingly have introduced seeds that will inevitably affect productionsystems that explicitly stated, (even legally bound at least in the EU not to use these seeds) without taking any measures to protect these other systems or to make sure that these will not be affected. wytze de lange > I want to go back to your post of 12/6/99 11:11am on Agricultural phase of human evolution (was: Reading on a Snowy Day). There is some rich stuff there that was either ignored or missed. > > You said: > *I was struck by this too. It got me thinking about the long-term history of > humans, and how the current transitions might be characterized (not that I > am necessarily endorsing the transitions). > > Agriculture is apparently a fairly recent invention. Over millions of > years, hunter-gatherers were at the mercy of environmental whims. They > roamed all over the world, colonizing it. Then, just 10,000 years ago, > agriculture took root here and there, extended families further extended, > and from all this grew the great civilizations. One of these was (is) > Western European sedentary farming. This supported local kings and later > popular governments. Back at the height of this age, almost everyone was > tied to the land (they had no choice). > > Now, very few people are tied to the land. Global culture, communication > and travel are rapidly emerging. People are subject to the whims of global > culture (operating as it were, like acts of God). They roam, going where > they can to get jobs and gather resources. Local bands such as corporations > and denominations provide ad-hoc community. This is becoming virtualized > and delocalized. In effect, community is no longer tied to the land either. > > Are you sure that European-style sedentary agriculture is more desirable or > more natural than hunting and roaming in the global environment? What next?* > > My annual Solstice Vision 1999: > > While I am a sedentarian, ruralist and agrarian I think that you are seeing the same thing that I am. Despite a tiny minority decrying the transition, technology is blasting us forward into uncharted waters. By the way as I have said before I believe that the recent invention, agriculture, back in the Neolithic age was and is a synthetic construct. So to me hunting and gathering in naturally selected ecosystems is the only way to be natural or get natural food. Of course if your species over populates, or if you encounter drought or flood, or another act of god you can also get pretty damn naturally hungry too. Yes the hunter gatherer image fits what seems to be emerging, consumers of opportunity moving through a virtual global environment. While there are sedentary opportunities with quasi-agrarian manifestations there is a constant Brownian motion keeping roots loose. I have presumed that the sedentary old world was a more stable place, with a more sustainable capaci! ty! > . I now seriously question that presumption. As we confront the fact, like it or not, that fewer and fewer on the ground producers are supplying more and more of the agricultural raw materials(these are much more than food stuffs they are industrial inputs also). Instead of a diversity of small medium and large farm operations we see collections at the ends of a reversed bell curve. Small part-time farms proliferate, only slightly balancing fewer and fewer larger and larger operations. That is why I continue to challenge what we think sustainability is. I don*t think that we know enough about agroecology to answer that yet. I also am beginning to think that when the thermodynamics is factored in that we may find that the solar based production of agriculture can be subsidized at a much higher level than we thought. That is providing that those subsidies do not drive the system into a pollution of the commons that results in a reduction in the productive capacities of! ! > the natural resource base of the landscape/watershed/bioregion. > > Will this possibly spawn farming operations spanning whole landscapes or watersheds using biointensive precision techniques? I don*t know, you tell me. When it comes to effectively managing the resources of watersheds might this be closer to not only efficiency but result in much less environmental impact? If such a hypothetical landscape farm included large animal production units as well as botanical crops could the nutrient cycles be effectively more closed and managed? If food processing was done within the integrated unit would that be another step in returning wastes to the agricultural system? Could such a system include high-tech eco-villages where workers, small/medium and large businesses and tela-commuters might thrive in pleasant surroundings? Or would this be another version of those brave new worlds that have been so oversold by both sides of the sustainable debate? If people are no longer tied to the land where will we go with private ownership in land! , ! > will that disappear? Or will it continue to co-exist with corporate or some form of cooperative ownership? If we do not begin to consider this type of option as well as the myth of the independent small farmer and his mystical return, I believe that we will miss an opportunity to ask our many questions about sustainability in a real world context. Of course we can also stick our heads in the sand or some where else where the sun don*t shine and ignore the disappearance of the yeoman farmer. The disappearing yeoman farmer upon whom our society*s delusional bucolic idyl about food production depends. > > Thanks for that post Dale, > Best, > > Ted > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 22:49:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06737 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14057 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:21:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from olsmail1.att.net.hk (olsmail1.att.net.hk [202.77.253.46]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13963 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [202.77.162.212] (ppp5-212.att.net.hk [202.77.162.212]) by olsmail1.att.net.hk (8.8.8/AT&T-EasyLink-AP) with ESMTP id LAA07717 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:20:52 +0800 (HKT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: gruno@mail.att.net.hk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991212081821.007d0d50@pcsia.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19991212081821.007d0d50@pcsia.net> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:22:24 +0800 To: From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: Biodiesel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 697 Hi Mike We've done a lot of work with biodiesel. It's great stuff - everything they say about it is true, it holds great promise. You can easily make it yourself. We've just finished putting it all on our new website, lots of information here - the website's not finished yet and we haven't launched it yet, some of the other pages are still empty, but the biofuels pages are complete and you're welcome to take a look. http://jtforever.org/newindex.html Comments most welcome! Best wishes Keith Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Hong Kong >Biodiesel > >A caller yesterday on NPR's Car Talk program mention that they were running >their diesel equipment on biodiesel which they make from vegetable oil. >This idea seems like it might help me with one of my personal goals which >has been to close the carbon cycle (as much as possible) around my energy >use. > >Obviouly, we must close both the nurtient cycle and the energy cycle in >order to claim progress towards a truly sustainable agriculture. And in >the long run, we have no choice but to close those cycles. As the >Biosphere in the Arizona desert showed, it is very expensive and the >technology is not well enough understood allow us to escape own pollution >by building Bucky Fuller domes over our cities. It is also doubtful we >will be able to terraform Mars in time and beside, "them there Martian >ABM's keep shooting down our spacecraft" or is it the old engineering axiom > Pick two, but only two Good, Fast or Cheap that is operative in this case >;>) ? > >A search of the net found several sites with instructions for cracking and >purifying vegetable oils like soybean, rapeseed etc into a suitable diesel >fuel. There was even an html on a portable biodiesel processor built as a >college senior project. Has anybody played with this and would they be willing to share their experiences? >Thanks for any info you all may have or be able to direct me to. Mike >Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 16 23:11:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06919 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01902 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:45:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01876 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-60ppp85.epix.net [209.74.60.85]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id WAA24397; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:45:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3859B3CE.AA153081@epix.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:53:51 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Rogers CC: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, mmiller@pcsia.com Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 698 Ted Rogers wrote: > My opinion is that the notification issue > would be moot because any residue would be long gone by the time of > harvest or consumption. If the discussion continues I will try to dig up > the tox stuff. > > So, could we apply the same reasoning to the pasture herbicide "Ally" (broadleaves)? It is undectectable in cows milk even if they munch on grass that is still wet from the chemical application.(so I'm told) Could it possibly be that some of the newer pesticides are *safer* then those allowed in some circumstances for certified organic growers? -- Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 09:43:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12591 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA11281 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:14:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11252 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:43:52 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:43:19 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:43:18 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A008B@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Roberto Verzola'" , brateaver@earthlink.net Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Cancer info (was: WTO Re: Off subject?) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:43:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 699 Bargyla and Roberto, >>Everybody please note--this man says , too, that cancer is now half >> the population== 1 in 2, he says. When I said that here, without >> data to prove it, I got a slap, but Dr. Nigh did have the info. > I have seen this statistic not only on lists, but also in some printed > articles, that the probability an American will develop cancer within > her/his lifetime is now 1 in 2. But I have not seen so far an > authoritative source cited. I imagine there's one, we've just got to > search for it. This is sort of an urban legend as far as I can tell. See: http://www.cancer.org/statistics/index.html http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/A/Ames_Causes.html Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 10:01:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12893 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01387; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01233 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep1-163-52.intrepid.net [209.190.163.52]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03339; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:48:29 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Shep Ogden at NCTC Last Night/Claymont Saturday Cc: World Sustainable Agriculture Association Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 Shep Ogden (of Cook's Garden seed company) lecture was superb last night at the National Conservation Training Center outside of Shepherdstown, WV . Although his presentation was marred by technical difficulties (none of them Shep's fault), he held the audience's interest with his tales of the extremes organic seedsmen go to insure the quality of their seed and to find new varieties (or, more appropriately put, OLD varieties.) His slides are phenomenal; he had many dramatic shots of ACRES of seed crops in flower. (I'd never seen 8 acres of marigolds before!) I've never been to his grow-out farm in Vermont. Shots of it showed an impressively well organized garden filled with what looked like very wonderful black soil. For cohort of Martha Stewart's, Shep never failed to impress. Tomorrow at Claymont Court, outside of Charles Town, WV, he will speak on "Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening," a topic he has written one book and several articles on. This will include a different set of slides than what he showed last night. He has also promised to devote as much additional time as possible on Saturday to discussing the ethical and economic ramification of genetically engineered seeds from the perspective of a seed company owner. Genetic engineering is a topic he has been researching for a forthcoming book. He has promised to present an examination of GE Bt from a 'fair use' perspective, and what it means to the organic farmers. Shep speaks at 1PM tomorrow in the Ballroom of the Historic Claymont Mansion. For more information, contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 email: csa@claymont.org or check out the www page at http://www.claymont.org/csa2 The event is free to the public. Reservations are strongly encouraged. This is part of an ongoing series of educational presentations at Claymont Court in support of Gardening for the Future. For more information on our work at Claymont, or to volunteer or to intern, please contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 email: csa@claymont.org. ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 10:14:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13084 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01163 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:48:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01085 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00388 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep1-163-52.intrepid.net [209.190.163.52]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03339; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:48:29 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Shep Ogden at NCTC Last Night/Claymont Saturday Cc: World Sustainable Agriculture Association Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 701 Shep Ogden (of Cook's Garden seed company) lecture was superb last night at the National Conservation Training Center outside of Shepherdstown, WV . Although his presentation was marred by technical difficulties (none of them Shep's fault), he held the audience's interest with his tales of the extremes organic seedsmen go to insure the quality of their seed and to find new varieties (or, more appropriately put, OLD varieties.) His slides are phenomenal; he had many dramatic shots of ACRES of seed crops in flower. (I'd never seen 8 acres of marigolds before!) I've never been to his grow-out farm in Vermont. Shots of it showed an impressively well organized garden filled with what looked like very wonderful black soil. For cohort of Martha Stewart's, Shep never failed to impress. Tomorrow at Claymont Court, outside of Charles Town, WV, he will speak on "Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening," a topic he has written one book and several articles on. This will include a different set of slides than what he showed last night. He has also promised to devote as much additional time as possible on Saturday to discussing the ethical and economic ramification of genetically engineered seeds from the perspective of a seed company owner. Genetic engineering is a topic he has been researching for a forthcoming book. He has promised to present an examination of GE Bt from a 'fair use' perspective, and what it means to the organic farmers. Shep speaks at 1PM tomorrow in the Ballroom of the Historic Claymont Mansion. For more information, contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 email: csa@claymont.org or check out the www page at http://www.claymont.org/csa2 The event is free to the public. Reservations are strongly encouraged. This is part of an ongoing series of educational presentations at Claymont Court in support of Gardening for the Future. For more information on our work at Claymont, or to volunteer or to intern, please contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 email: csa@claymont.org. ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 10:27:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13267 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12389 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:08:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lycanthrope.crosslink.net (lycanthrope.crosslink.net [206.246.124.36]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12383 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from laural (dyn26.c5200-4.king-george.246.crosslink.net [206.246.74.26]) by lycanthrope.crosslink.net (8.9.3/) with SMTP id KAA09561; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:08:19 -0500 X-Really-To: Message-ID: <000801bf489f$f6084400$1a4af6ce@laural> From: "Laura Lengnick" To: "Wilson, Dale" Cc: Subject: Re: Cancer risk as urban legend? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:04:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 702 Hi folks, perhaps I'm missing a subtle point in this discussion, but I was curious and went to the ACS site (thanks for the link, Dale) and this is part of what I read there: "Lifetime risk refers to the probability that an individual, over the course of a lifetime, will develop cancer or die from it. In the US, men have a 1 in 2 lifetime risk of developing cancer, and for women the risk is 1 in 3." Dale, this suggests to me that the roughly 1 in 2 risk referred to previously in the discussion below is NOT an urban legend, but fact. I imagine that the ACS statistic is a good a one as any for an authoritative source to cite. If the Ames in the other site Dale mentioned is the infamous Bruce Ames, I'd take anything from THAT page with a healthy dose of skepticism.... >> I have seen this statistic not only on lists, but also in some printed >> articles, that the probability an American will develop cancer within >> her/his lifetime is now 1 in 2. But I have not seen so far an >> authoritative source cited. I imagine there's one, we've just got to >> search for it. > >This is sort of an urban legend as far as I can tell. See: > >http://www.cancer.org/statistics/index.html > >http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/A/Ames_Causes.html > >Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 10:37:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13439 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13759 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:14:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13701 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.129]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:21:23 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:13:17 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Cancer info Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 703 On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:43:16 -0600, Wilson, Dale wrote: >This is sort of an urban legend as far as I can tell. See: > >http://www.cancer.org/statistics/index.html Thanks for pointing us to that American Cancer Society site, Dale. As far as I'm concerned it provides the statistical basis for the 1-in-2 claim under discussion. According to the data presented: 1.222 million cases of cancer will be diagnosed in 1999, while 0.563 million people will die of cancer this year. That's a net mortality rate of about 46%. Yeah, I know there's lag time and population increase and all that stuff, but for arm-waving discussion purposes, 46% will do. The ACS also states that 1 person in 4 will *die* from cancer. Might be 23%, might be 27% ... who knows, but 1 in 4 is close enough. So roughly 25% lifetime mortality rate from cancer, and roughly 46% mortality rate from the disease itself. On that basis, the lifetime rate of incidence for aggregate cancers is 54%. Sure looks like 1-in-2 to me --- worse even, by almost 10%. I have not looked at earlier statistics, but a lot of cancer went undiagnosed, or people died younger from something else. My great-grandfather died of "urinary blockage" that was almost certainly prostate cancer. His son was diagnosed with prostate cancer, but died of something else (at 92) before the cancer could get him. For me it is the former 1-in-8 rate that is doubtful. That *also* makes the conclusion of greatly increasing cancer incidence suspect, but from the *other* end. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 10:51:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13653 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25125 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:36:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25090 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:35:35 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:34:59 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:34:59 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A008F@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Laura Lengnick'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Cancer risk as urban legend? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:34:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 704 Laura, > I was curious and went to the ACS site (thanks for the link, Dale) > and this is > part of what I read there: > > "Lifetime risk refers to the probability that an individual, > over the course > of a lifetime, will develop cancer or die from it. In the US, > men have a 1 > in 2 lifetime risk of developing cancer, and for women the > risk is 1 in 3." > > Dale, this suggests to me that the roughly 1 in 2 risk referred to > previously in the discussion below is NOT an urban legend, > but fact. I stand corrected. I think the legend part is that age-adjusted cancer rates (other than smoking-related) have been increasing. Age adjustment is important since cancer is, in part, caused by age. As people become healthier and live longer, cancer rates will go up, all else being equal. I would encourage people to look at the data. http://www.cancer.org/statistics/index.html http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/A/Ames_Causes.html Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 10:52:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13675 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26209 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:38:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26200 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:38:52 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.164]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:38:49 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991217093839.007d2cd0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:38:39 -0600 To: Subject: NREL Biodiesel Reference & Thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 705 Thanks to all who have posted references and information on biologically sourced diesel fuel. This looks quite promising given the information I have read. There are co-op efforts underway in the USA and the biodiesel is already available in the EU and elsewhere. I wanted to share one reference about the sustainability of this fuel. The quote below is from http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/docs/lifecycle.html. "This study provides a life cycle inventory of environmental and energy flows to and from the environment for both petroleum diesel and biodiesel, as well as for blends of biodiesel with petroleum diesel." on the plus side "Biodiesel yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed in its life cycle. " "Biodiesel reduces net CO2 emissions by 78.45% compared to petroleum diesel." "Using B100 in urban buses substantially reduces life cycle emissions of total particulate matter (32%), CO (35%), and SOx (8%), relative to petroleum diesel's life cycle." (B100 is 100 % biodiesel.) "Tailpipe emissions of particulates smaller than 10 microns are 68% lower for buses that run on biodiesel (compared to petroleum diesel). Tailpipe CO emissions are 46% lower. Biodiesel completely eliminates tailpipe SOx emissions" and for some downside numbers "The use of B100 in urban buses increases NOx life cycle emissions by 13.35%. Blending biodiesel with petroleum proportionately lowers NOx emissions. B20 exhibits a 2.67% increase in life NOx cycle emissions. Most of this increase is directly attributable to increases in NOx tailpipe emissions. B100, for example, increases NOx tailpipe levels by 8.89%." "Total life cycle emissions of HCs are 35% higher for B100 than for petroleum diesel. However, HC emissions at the bus's tailpipe are 37% lower." If you want to order the whole report from NERL see below. Now all I have to do is see if they have a similar study for ethanol. "I married a moonshiner's daughter and I love her still." from the Forge listserv. Mike Miller "This overview is extracted from a detailed, comprehensive report entitled Life Cycle Inventories of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel for Use in an Urban Bus., NREL/SR-580-24089 UC Category 1503, National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Golden, CO. That report contains the detail engineering analysis, assumptions, and other technical material that supports this overview. For a copy of that report, contact the same addresses provided" below National Renewable Energy Laboratory 1617 Cole Boulevard Golden, Colorado 80401-3393 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 12:58:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17057 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04114 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:42:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03954 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-243ppp47.epix.net [205.238.243.47]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id MAA25515; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:41:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385A77D9.DDCE8311@epix.net> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:50:17 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A008C@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 706 "Wilson, Dale" wrote: > Steve, > > > So, could we apply the same reasoning to the pasture > > herbicide "Ally" (broadleaves)? It is undectectable in > > cows milk even if they munch on grass that is still wet > > from the chemical application.(so I'm told) Could it > > possibly be that some of the newer pesticides are *safer* > > then those allowed in some circumstances for certified > > organic growers? > > That's beside the point. This isn't really a biological issue. > I was trying to ask if some of the newer pesticides are *safer* or *better* for the environment then some of the pest/disease controls now used in organic production- be it rotenone, sulfer, or whatever. -- Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 13:21:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17401 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13718 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:01:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13554 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11z1gS-0003tE-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:00:52 +0100 Message-ID: <385A7FD1.ED9F8CA9@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:24:17 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patents References: <19991217173130947.AGX219.321@[208.141.36.73]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 707 ================================ > I had a look at Novartis patent wo9935913 which can be accessed at > http://ep.espacenet.com/ > > > It states: > "Present invention relates to a method of controlling pests with a > nitroimino or nitroguanidino compound, especially thiamethoxam, > imidacioprid, Ti-435, thiacloprid, and at least one auxiliary to the > transgenic crop plant." > Preferred are imidacloprid and thiamethoxan. > Targets are especially insects of the order Acarina. > Advantageous properties: extension of the pesticidal spectrum of action > to other pests, for example to resistant strains , sufficient control of > the pests with the aid of the composition where nitroimino or transgenic > plants alone are entirely ineffective". > > First, it seems this is more a discovery than an invention. The > application states that "surprisingly, it has been found that > nitroimino- and nitroguanidino compounds exceed the Bt working of > transgenic plants" . > > However, more important, it seems to be a cover up to hide the > inefficiency of Bt plants and the fact that resistant strains have > developed!! > The application refers to the possible components of the compositions. > > "the action of nitroimino and nitroguanidino can be extended > substantially by adding other insecticidally, acaricidally and/or > fungicidally active ingredients such as: > organophosphorus compounds, nitrophenols and derivatives, fornamidines, > ureas, carbamates, pyrethroids, chlorinated hydrocarbons. Especially > preferred components in mixtures are for example abamectin, emamectin, > spinosad, pyrnetrozine, fenoxycarb, Ti-435, fipronil, pyriproxyfen, > diazonin or diafenthyrion. > Also other auxiliaries can be used in the composition such as , > stabilizers, antifoams, preservatives, bactericides, fungicides, > nematicides, molluscicides or herbicides." > The compositions are pretty flexible given the following statement in > the application: > "As a rule, the compositions within the scope of invention comprise > 0,1-99%, in particular 0,1-95% of a nitroimino or nitroguanidino > compound and 1-99%, in particular 5-99% of -at least- one solid or > liquid auxiliary." > > The composition can be sprayed, preferrably foliar spraying but can also > be added to the soil in granular form or can be added as coating to the > seed. > > The "invention" apllies for Bt plants and for GE lectinplants! > But also gives a whole list of other substances, which I will give in a > next message. > wytze > > ================================ > How to Use this Mailing List > ================================ > > You received this e-mail as a result of your registration on the biotech_activists mailing list. > > To unsubscribe, please send an email to listserv@iatp.org. In the body of the message type: > unsubscribe biotech_activists > > To post messages, send email to biotech_activists@iatp.org. > > For a list of other commands and list options, please send email to listserv@iatp.org. > In the body of the message type: > help > > For other questions email support@iatp.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 13:22:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17424 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14543 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:02:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14444 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11z1hN-0003xj-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:01:49 +0100 Message-ID: <385A8009.9D7A2137@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:25:13 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: New Novartis Patents II References: <385A7DF1.44DB4590@zap.a2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 > The "invention" by Novartis apllies to transgenic plants with > insecticdal properties. > Toxins expressed by such transgenic plants include for example: > Bacillus cereus proteins, Bacillus popliae proteins, Bacillus > thuringiensis endotoxins Cry1A(a), Cry1A(b), Cry1A(c), CryIIA, IIIA, > IIIB2, Cyt A, VIP1, VIP2, VIP3 or insecticidal proteins of bacteria > colonising nematodes like Photorhabdus spp or Xenorhabdus spp. such as > Photorhabdus luminescens, Xenorhabdus nematophilus etc. > Proteinase inhibitors such as trypsin inhibitors, serine protease > inhibitors, patatin, cystatin, papain inhibitors, > Ribosome inactivating proteins(RIP) such as ricin maize RIP, abrin, > luffin, saporin or bryodin. > Plant lectins such as pealectin, barley lectin or Snowdrop lectin or > agglutinins. > Animal toxins such as scorpion toxins, spider vernons, wasp vernons and > other insect specific neurotoxins; > Steroid metabolism enzymes such as 3-hydroxysteroid oxidase, > ecdysteroid-UDP-glycosyl transferase, cholesterol oxidases, ecdysone > inhibitors, HMG-COA reductase, ionchannelblockers such as sodium and > calcium, juvenile hormone esterase, diuretic hormone receptors, stilbene > synthase, bibenzyl synthase, chitinase and glucanases. > > See also the following patents: EP374753, WO9307278, WO9534656, > EP427529, EP451878 > > The "invention" can be used on: > Soy, maize, sorghum, cereals, potatoes, tomatoes, cotton but also on: > fruits: stonefruit, pomefruit, apples, pears, plums, peaches, almonds, > cherries, strawberries, raspberries, blackberries. > Beans, lentils, peas, Oil crops such as rape, mustard, poppies, olives, > sunflowers, coconuts, castor-oilplants, cacao, peanuts. > Pumpkin, cucumber, melons. > Fibre crops like cotton, hemp, flax, jute. > Citrusfruits like lemon, orange, grapefruit, tangerine > Vegetables like spinach, lettuce, carrots, asparagus, cabbage, carrots, > onions, tomatoes, beet and capsicum. > And also on avocado, cinnamonium, camphor, tobacco, nuts, coffee, > eggplants, sugarcane, tea, pepper, grapevines, hops, the banana family, > cereals. > > The reduction rate is 40-50% at least which can be increased by adding > other compounds (see previous message). > > The application gives a whole list of biological examples, which I did > not yet go through. > The whole application is about 110 pages. It also lists the different > nematodes and insects it works upon but also tables with a lot of other > targets, like fungi, viruses etc. > To me the "invention" is 0,1-99% proof that transgenic Bt plants are not > so effective and have caused resistance already, in particular 95-99%. > wytze > > ---- > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list, send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line. > ---- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 14:29:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18835 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22198 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:07:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from avalon.imagixx.net (IDENT:root@avalon.imagixx.net [209.211.227.17]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22148 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pam (ppp121.imagixx.net [209.211.228.196]) by avalon.imagixx.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18020 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:07:31 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991217140818.007e68d0@avalon.imagixx.net> X-Sender: bwheat@avalon.imagixx.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:08:18 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Pam Kasey Subject: small farm apprenticeship programs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 709 Hello -- I am coordinating an apprenticeship program for West Virginia's Mountain State Organic Growers and Buyers Association. We are in our second year. In our first year, we were unsuccessful in placing any apprentices, so I'm writing to ask for ideas about advertising, etc. Our program is based more or less loosely on the successful Maine and Ohio programs: farmers register detailed application forms with the central office (me). Inquiring potential apprentices are mailed a applications, information about MSOGBA, and listings showing a 50-word description of each participating farm's operation. Apprentice applicants indicate in their applications their preferred five from among these participating farms. The applicant receives copies of the chosen farmers' applications, the chosen farmers receive copies of the apprentices' applications, and it's up to them from there. Last year we asked for $15 application fees from farmers and applicants alike (not out of line with other programs). Because we had thirty-some inquiries that resulted in requests for applications from twenty-some people but only one returned application, and the farm descriptions were varied and interesting, we are assuming that the application fee was a deterrent. This seems especially likely since we had only six participating farms and I know that at least Maine has many, many more (making it more likely to an applicant that the fee will result in a successful match). Since the program supported itself easily, we reduced the fees this year to $10 for farmers and $5 for apprentice applicants. It's my sense that the other problem with our program was probably advertising. Guessing that people who have interest in and have memberships with organic farming organizations would be likely applicants, we advertised primarily in classifieds in the newsletters of organic farming organizations in the eastern states, in February, March, April, and May, variously, as the newsletters were printed. A few of these were free; a few asked as much as $10 per ad, and we only advertised once in one of those. We are trying to keep expenses down, if possible, at least until the program gets up and running. It could be that the people who are interested in small farm apprenticeships aren't already hooked into the groups, but are more likely, say, college students looking for interesting summer experiences. This year we plan, for one thing, to mail information about our program to WV county ag extension agents and to college placement offices, agriculture professors, and environmental science professors in WV and surrounding states. We are interested in other free or inexpensive ways to promote the program, or ideas from groups that have experience with paid ads that are worthwhile. And thoughts about who potential farm apprentices are. Any other ideas that aren't mentioned here? Thanks for any suggestions -- Pam Kasey buckwheat@imagixx.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 14:54:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19466 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05277 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:32:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05198 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11z34i-0001e6-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:30:00 +0100 Message-ID: <385A94B5.44A572F4@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:53:25 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, Biotech_activists@iatp.org, "GMO-L@cornell.edu" , gentech@gen.free.de, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, jcummins@julian.uwo.ca, M.W.Ho@open.ac.uk, mail@icsenglish.uk, adrianb@foe.co.uk Subject: New Novartis Patents III Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 710 First some additional information on patent WO9935913: The claims are not only made for Bt and lectin crops but also for transgenic plants expressing fungicidal, nematodical, acaricidal active ingredients or which are tolerant against herbicides or against the attack of fungi. The other patent, WO9935910 is pretty similar in its claims but the pesticides are different. In this patent pest control is obtained by the use of pymetrozine, profenofos, a benzoylurea derivative, especially lufenuron or a carbarnat derivative especially fenoxycarb. Especially preferred components in mixtures are for example, Ni-25, Ti 304, Clothiamidin(Ti435), MTI 446, fipronil, pyriproxifen, thiaolioprid, fluxofenime, imidaclopriod, thiamethoxam, diafenthiuron, diazinon, disulphoton, furathiocarb, cyromazin, cypermethrin, tau-fluvalinate, tefluthrin OR Bacillus thuringiensis products. According to the application these substances surprisingly, even highly surprisingly show synergistic effects in or on the transgenic plants. Wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 15:14:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19927 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA17330 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:55:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web606.mail.yahoo.com (web606.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.170]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17303 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17409 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 1999 19:55:44 -0000 Message-ID: <19991217195544.17408.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.8.215.69] by web606.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:55:44 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: GAO Report on Pork Farm/Retail Price Spreads To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 711 Good Afternoon SANETeers, For those who are keeping an eye on the pork industry, a new report is hot off the press. Dated December 1999 and titled "Pork Industry: USDA's Reported Prices Have Not Reflected Actual Sales" It is a GAO Report to Congressional Requesters and is numbered GAO/RCED-00-26. The phone number to order is 202-512-6000 or try the GAO's home page at http://www.gao.gov. The focus is on the farm to retail price spread and it has some interesting graphs and analysis. Kate P.S. I'm behind on my SANET reading, so pardon if someone else has already posted this reference. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 18:31:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22710 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16512 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:18:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16444 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com ([12.13.138.106]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA01628 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:20:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912172320.RAA01628@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: Rotenone Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:19:47 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 712 "Greenamyre said the results of his team's investigation indicate that systemic administration of rotenone brings about selective retrograde degeneration of the nigrostriatal system and mimics the slowly progressive course of PD." WHAT?!?!? Anyway, all I know about rotenone is that it is used as an insecticide against certain beetles and that it is very effective in killing fish (not just nuisance fish) in ponds. It does this by irritating the mucous membranes causing them to overproduce, thereby coating the fish's gills and suffocating it. If netted as soon as they come to the surface the fish can be cleaned and eaten, or frozen for later consumption, supposedly without harm to warm blooded species. This use of rotenone allows people to "clean out" an overstocked pond or one with too many undesirable species. A few weeks after the treatment, new fish can be stocked. Any other comments? Mike To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 18:33:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22739 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14691 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:17:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14590 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.224.149.137] (216-224-146-50.stk.jps.net [216.224.146.50]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA08638; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:17:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <52246021B94FD311B4B900609451548D01953C30@umc-mail02.missouri.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:41 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Community Food Security Coalition From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Will big business gobble up Ben and Jerry's? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 713 Kevin, The best way to see this doesn't happen is to buy B&J stock and vote it. B&J has struggled for several years. It's much more difficult to do social justice experiments in real time with shareholders to answer to, espcially in the highly volitile area of premium ice cream. Haagen-Daas and Dryers are already the distribution avenues for B&J. While I would also hate to see this grand experiment in "benevolent capitalism" fail, and , would myself, cease to buy the product if the company were sold, especially to Nestle', I can understand how this could happen. B&J has been swimming upstream for almost a decade, inspite of hiring "conventional" CEO's to bring the company more in line with a corporate business model. If everyone on these two lists bought just one share of stock, and voted it. Then encouraged others of similar social conscience to do the same, AND really got involved by reading the P&L and Balance sheets and made suggestions, it might still be possible to keep this company alive. Alot of personal work and time, yes, but what's it worth to you? Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Dec 17 16:39:12 1999 -0500 Received: from jaguars.cableinet.net (jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21413 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:39:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912172139.QAA21413@luna.oit.unc.edu> Received: (qmail 22097 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 21:39:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?194.117.137.240?) (194.117.137.240) by jaguars with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 21:39:02 -0000 Subject: MAGAZINE ON GM FOOD - Global Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:46:35 +0000 x-sender: pbrown@pop.cableinet.co.uk x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Peter Brown Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id QAA21413 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 714 I hope you forgive us for sending you this unsolicited email - it is a one-off. Here in the UK we have gone a long way towards winning the battle to preserve a safe non-genetically engineered food supply. Now it's the USA's and Canada's turn to awaken to this vital human rights issue and stand up for pure food. In this worldwide campaign, information is the key to success. Our magazine, run on a not-for-profit basis, gives important information about the genetic engineering of food, in a form which is factually accurate yet easy to understand. - Peter Brown !!!!!!!!!!! MAGAZINE ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD !!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!! MAGAZINE ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD !!!!!!!!!! -------------------------- GM-FREE --------------------------- -------------------------- GM-FREE --------------------------- Keeping your life & environment free of genetically engineered (GE) food Order the first four issues of this important magazine to gain a full understanding of GE. Covers international news on GE food: --- the risks --- the cover-ups --- the truth ³It may be a matter of survival to know the issues surrounding the dangers of genetically modified food and where we can find sustainable alternatives. 'GM-Free' is a vital resource in guarding our food supply.² ‹- Prof Joseph Cummins, Professor Emeritus of Genetics at the University of Western Ontario You owe it to yourself and your family to learn about: o Risks to health and environment o Government and industry cover-ups o Regulatory shambles o Bad science and big business o Research latest o Campaign news o The organic alternative o Consumer information --- FOR USA / CANADA --- To receive your copies, fill out the form below and send with payment to KHI Publications, 1100 East Madison, Fairfield, IA 52556, USA. Please make cheque payable to C. Robinson. ..... Please send me one trial copy of GM-FREE @ U.S. $5.00, incl. mailing ..... Please send me the first four issues of GM-FREE @ U.S. $18.00, incl. mailing For larger quantities, please call 011 44 1695 50504 or email us. --- THE REST OF THE WORLD --- To receive your copies, fill out the form below and send with payment to KHI Publications, 1100 East Madison, Fairfield, IA 52556, USA. Please make cheque payable to C. Robinson. ..... Please send me one trial copy of GM-FREE @ £3.30 sterling, incl. postage ..... Please send me the first four issues of GM-FREE @ £11.00 sterling, incl. postage For larger quantities, please call 011 44 1695 50504 or email us. --- THE UK --- To receive your copies, fill out the form below and send with payment to KHI Publications, 1100 East Madison, Fairfield, IA 52556, USA. Please make cheque payable to C. Robinson. ..... Please send me one trial copy of GM-FREE @ £2.50 sterling, incl. postage ..... Please send me the first four issues of GM-FREE @ £8.50 sterling, incl. postage For larger quantities, please call 011 44 1695 50504 or email us. Name .......................................................... Name of Organisation (if any) ................................. Address ....................................................... ............................................................... Tel (day) ............................ (evening) .............. Email .................................... !!!!!!! LOOKING FOR N. AMERICAN PUBLISHER / DISTRIBUTOR !!!!!!!! !!!!!!! LOOKING FOR N. AMERICAN PUBLISHER / DISTRIBUTOR !!!!!!!! ARE YOU A DISTRIBUTER/PUBLISHER WHO COULD HELP US BRING THIS VITAL MAGAZINE TO USA AND CANADA? WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU. VISIT OUR WEB SITE: http://wkweb4.cableinet.co.uk/pbrown PLEASE FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO YOUR FRIENDS From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Dec 17 16:52:43 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21641 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07509 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:27:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from outmta003.topica.com (outmta.topica.com [206.132.75.200]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07111 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:26:46 -0500 (EST) To: PANUPS From: PANUPS Subject: PANUPS: Action Alert: GE Food Safety Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:03:22 -0800 Message-ID: <0.700000050.1683888720-212058698-945464602@topica.com> Reply-To: panupdates@panna.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: 700000050 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 715 =========================================== P A N U P S Pesticide Action Network Updates Service =========================================== Action Alert: GE Food Safety December 17, 1999 The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the U.S. government agency responsible for food safety, has recently held a series of public meetings on its policy regarding genetically engineered (GE) food. The last of the three hearings was held December 13, 1999, in Oakland, California. Outside more than a thousand people participated in a rally demanding pre-market safety testing and labeling. The demonstration was organized by a coalition of national and local non-governmental organizations including Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA). FDA will also accept written comments on the policy until January 13, 1999. PANNA urges everyone to write FDA demanding that the Agency: 1. institute thorough pre-market testing and labeling of all GE foods; 2. withdraw all GE foods from the market until they are subject to thorough safety assessments; and 3. place a moratorium on all approvals of new GE food products until required safety and labeling programs are in place. Every day, millions of infants, children and adults in the U.S. are consuming genetically engineered food without knowing it. Tests of everyday groceries by the Consumers Union show that genetically engineered foods are already on supermarket shelves--in baby formulas, tortilla chips, drink mixes, taco shells, "veggie" burgers, muffin mix--and even in fast-food. FDA's policy for oversight of genetically engineered crops, presented in 1991, indicated that FDA would treat GE plants no differently than traditionally bred plants, except in rare circumstances. In other words, no pre-market notification nor pre-market safety testing would be required. Even though the Agency received almost 4,000 comments on the policy, most calling for safety testing and/or labeling, FDA essentially ignored the comments and has proceeded with a voluntary program that has yet to require a single safety test. While FDA urges corporations to thoroughly test GE foods, it has allowed the corporations themselves to determine whether these foods are safe. Under the policy, FDA does not require that companies consult with the Agency before marketing GE foods. The voluntary consultation consists of discussions between FDA and the corporation concerning safety and nutritional assessments prepared by the corporation. At the end of the process, FDA prepares a brief memorandum summarizing the interaction and declaring the consultation complete. The memorandum typically indicates that the company, not FDA, has found that the GE crop does not differ significantly from non-engineered varieties. Consultations between FDA and corporations are conducted entirely behind closed doors. The FDA gives no public notice that it is engaged in consultations, provides no information to the public and gives no opportunity for the public to participate in the process allowing GE foods on the market. After consultations are completed, FDA announces its decisions by merely posting the information on its Web site. Even then, the company safety assessments, the basis for FDA's decisions, are available to the public only through Freedom of Information Act requests. Companies may withhold significant portions of the data from the public under claims that they are confidential business information. ACTION -- Write FDA and tell them that current policies do not meet the public's need for information and do not adequately protect the public from potential health risks. Urge FDA: * to institute a mandatory regulatory program, in place of its current system of voluntary consultations, to assess the safety of genetically engineered foods and to insure that no such products posing a significant health risk are put on the market. FDA should develop detailed protocols for assessing risks including allergenicity, toxicity, and nutritional changes; require long-term feeding studies using the whole engineered food; and thoroughly review company testing. All data submitted for FDA assessments should be part of an open and transparent public process that allows opportunities for citizens to comment on pending approvals. * to require any GE product which passes FDA's safety review and is marketed to carry a label stating that "This product contains a genetically engineered material, or was produced with a genetically engineered material and contains genes from XX sources." Labels should be mandatory for all genetically engineered products, whether or not current testing techniques can detect foreign DNA. The label should be straightforward and informational and not include value-laden words like "improved with" or "enhanced by" genetic engineering. * to require imported genetically engineered food, which currently receives no safety review, to undergo the same review as domestic foods. * to withdraw all GE foods from the market until they are subject to thorough safety assessments; and * to place a moratorium on all approvals of new GE food products until required safety and labeling programs are in place. Comments may be sent directly to FDA by visiting their Web site at http://www.fda.gov/oc/biotech/ then click on "Comment on Federal Register Notice." Or write to: Commissioner Jane Henney FDA Dockets Management Branch Attn: Docket No. 99n-4282 5630 Fishers Lane, Rm 1061 Rockville, MD 20852 Sources: "A Regulatory Patchwork--with big holes," by Michael Hansen, Consumer Policy Institute, 1999. "FDA Implements Informal Food Safety Reviews," December 1994, The Gene Exchange. "Seeds of Change," Consumer Reports, September 1999. Contact: PANNA =========================================== NOTE: Replies to the sender of this message will not be read. To comment, send a message to: panna@panna.org To subscribe, send a blank message to: panups-subscribe@igc.topica.com To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: panups-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) 49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA Phone: (415) 981-1771 Fax: (415) 981-1991 Email: panna@panna.org Web: http://www.panna.org =========================================== _____________________________________________________________ You share a similar passion. You align with common interests. You connect over a favorite topic. You belong at Topica. http://www.topica.com/t/10 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 19:11:45 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23087 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10172 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:56:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09993 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ofrf-4.ofrf.org (ofrf4.tychonet.com [205.179.36.4]) by scruz.net (8.8.5/1.34) with SMTP id PAA29209 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from research@ofrf.org) Message-Id: <4.1.19991217155436.00b755d0@mail.scruznet.com> X-Sender: ofrf@mail.scruznet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:56:34 -0800 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Organic Farming Research Foundation Subject: Job Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_702260608==_.ALT" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 --=====================_702260608==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JOB ANNOUNCEMENT DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANT and INFORMATION SERVICES COORDINATOR The Organic Farming Research Foundation The Organic Farming Research Foundation=92s purpose is to foster the= improvement and widespread adoption of organic farming practices. Our mission is: to sponsor research related to organic farming; to disseminate research results to= organic farmers and to growers interested in adopting organic production systems; to educate the public and decision makers about organic farming issues. OFRF was founded in 1990 by certified organic farmers to fund organic= research and education projects and make that information available to others. Since that time OFRF has awarded nearly $630,000 in support of 114 separate= projects. OFRF employs four full-time staff and is located in Santa Cruz, California.= We distribute OFRF=92s Information Bulletin (containing the results of= OFRF-funded projects) to 12,000 organic farmers and other supporters, publish a biennial National Organic Farmers=92 Survey, produce an Organic Business and= Regulatory Conference, and maintain a high-profile Policy Program dedicated to= obtaining a fair share of all available agricultural research dollars for organic= growers. We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit, tax-deductible organization. Our total budget will near $650,000 for FY 2000. The Organic Farming Research Foundation is= the nation=92s primary non-profit resource for organic production research and farmgate demographic information. The Development Assistant and Information Services Coordinator Position OFRF is offering a full-time staff position as Development Assistant and Information Services Coordinator. The person who accepts this opportunity= will directly assist the Executive Director in all phases of fundraising which= will include: =B7 Writing direct mail appeals. =B7 Writing high-donor solicitations. =B7 Prospecting for and developing foundation support. =B7 Foundation communications including interim and final report preparation. =B7 Developing financial instruments in support of OFRF=92s Endowment= Fund Campaign. As Coordinator of Information Services, the person who accepts this= opportunity will collaborate with other staff and board members to manage the editing, design and delivery of OFRF=92s various publications including the= foundation=92s newsletter, brochures, special reports and publications. This work will not= be limited to print media but will include effective use and development of the foundation=92s web page and other media. The successful applicant will join= an organization of national scope and recognition with an opportunity to stand= at the forefront of the organic agriculture movement. Qualifications =B7 Excellent communication skills with experience in writing, editing= and publishing preferably in both fundraising and information dissemination or educational settings. =B7 Extensive history of success in development and fundraising work= with a non-profit organization. =B7 Established management skills for the development and scheduling= of various publications and other information delivery tools. =B7 Ability to coordinate the work of contributing editors and= writers. =B7 Mastery of IBM-PC instruments for database management, desktop publishing and HTML editing. =B7 Basic (preferably extensive) knowledge of and appreciation for= organic farming systems and the organic food business. =B7 Cooperative work style. =B7 Willingness to travel. =B7 Sense of humor. Compensation The Development Assistant/Information Services Coordinator position is a full-time position and includes vacation and health benefits. A job share is possible. The person who accepts this position will work out of the OFRF= office located in Santa Cruz, California. Starting salary is $37,000-$40,000= depending upon previous experience.=20 To Apply =20 Please send a letter of introduction, a resume, and two writing samples on= or before February 1, 2000 to: OFRF Search Committee, Development Assistant/Information Services Coordinator, P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, California 95061.=20 The Organic Farming Research Foundation has adopted a policy that all= persons are entitled to equal employment opportunity regardless of race, color, religion, sex, marital status, or sexual orientation. Organic Farming Research Foundation P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061 ph: (831) 426-6606 fax: (831) 426-6670 www.ofrf.org=20 --=====================_702260608==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
JOB ANNOUNCEMENT

DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANT and INFORMATION SERVICES COORDINATOR

The Organic Farming Research Foundation

The Organic Farming Research Foundation=92s purpose is to foster the improvement and widespread adoption of organic farming practices. Our mission is: to sponsor research related to organic farming; to disseminate research results to organic farmers and to growers interested in adopting organic production systems; to educate the public and decision makers about organic farming issues.

OFRF was founded in 1990 by certified organic farmers to fund organic research and education projects and make that information available to others. Since that time OFRF has awarded nearly $630,000 in support of 114 separate projects. OFRF employs four full-time staff and is located in Santa Cruz, California. We distribute OFRF=92s Information Bulletin (containing the results of OFRF-funded projects) to 12,000 organic farmers and other supporters, publish a biennial National Organic Farmers=92 Survey, produce an Organic Business and Regulatory Conference, and maintain a high-profile Policy Program dedicated to obtaining a fair share of all available agricultural research dollars for organic growers. We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit, tax-deductible organization. Our total budget will near $650,000 for FY 2000. The Organic Farming Research Foundation is the nation=92s primary non-profit resource for organic production research and farmgate demographic information.

The Development Assistant and Information Services Coordinator Position

OFRF is offering a full-time staff position as Development Assistant and Information Services Coordinator. The person who accepts this opportunity will directly assist the Executive Director in all phases of fundraising which will include:
=B7       Writing direct mail appeals.
=B7       Writing high-donor solicitations.
=B7       Prospecting for and developing foundation support.
=B7       Foundation communications including interim and final report preparation.
=B7       Developing financial instruments in support of OFRF=92s Endowment Fund Campaign.

As Coordinator of Information Services, the person who accepts this opportunity will collaborate with other staff and board members to manage the editing, design and delivery of OFRF=92s various publications including the foundation=92s newsletter, brochures, special reports and publications. This work will not be limited to print media but will include effective use and development of the foundation=92s web page and other media. The successful applicant will join an organization of national scope and recognition with an opportunity to stand at the forefront of the organic agriculture movement.


Qualifications

=B7       Excellent communication skills with experience in writing, editing and publishing preferably in both fundraising and information dissemination or educational settings.
=B7       Extensive history of success in development and fundraising work with a non-profit organization.
=B7       Established management skills for the development and scheduling of various publications and other information delivery tools.
=B7       Ability to coordinate the work of contributing editors and writers.
=B7       Mastery of IBM-PC instruments for database management, desktop publishing and HTML editing.
=B7       Basic (preferably extensive) knowledge of and appreciation for organic farming systems and the organic food business.
=B7       Cooperative work style.
=B7       Willingness to travel.
=B7       Sense of humor.

 Compensation

The Development Assistant/Information Services Coordinator position is a full-time position and includes vacation and health benefits. A job share is possible. The person who accepts this position will work out of the OFRF office located in Santa Cruz, California. Starting salary is $37,000-$40,000 depending upon previous experience.

To Apply
 
Please send a letter of introduction, a resume, and two writing samples on or before February 1, 2000 to: OFRF Search Committee, Development Assistant/Information Services Coordinator, P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, California 95061.

The Organic Farming Research Foundation has adopted a policy that all persons are entitled to equal employment opportunity regardless of race, color, religion, sex, marital status, or sexual orientation.




Organic Farming Research Foundation
P.O. Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061
ph: (831) 426-6606 fax: (831) 426-6670
www.ofrf.org --=====================_702260608==_.ALT-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 19:57:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23458 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02947 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:34:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02872 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.95.alltel.net [166.102.67.95]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA03520 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:34:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A008F@vela.phibred.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:22:00 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: Cancer risk as urban legend? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 717 Dale writes: > As people become >healthier and live longer, cancer rates will go up, all else being equal. > Dear Readers, Sometimes the unwritten assumptions of our culture surface, and this provides opportunity to question them. Is it true that people are becoming healthier in the US or even in the world? I don't think so when medical treatments are such a huge part of the economy. Are people living longer? I'm not so sure of this either as I haven't heard that life expectancy figures have been changing significantly in the US in recent decades, and I haven't heard of this occurring in countries not subject to war and famine either. But what do I know? Will cancer rates go up as people live longer? I don't see the correlation here. As societies have become industrialized cancer rates have generally risen. But this may not have anything to do with longevity but rather may have to do with pollution and stress increasing. It is pretty clear that increasing pollution and stress DO correlate with industrialization. It might be interesting to see whether longevity amongst pastoral people such as Hunzas or Peruvian Indians has increased or not and whether cancer rates have risen or not. Another unwritten assumption that might be drawn from the quote above is that longer life is better. Who says? Is the quality of life in a nursing home to be desired? My mother lived to 92 and suffered from Alzheimers so badly that her last couple years had to be spent in a nursing home. This was something she had expressed fear about all my life, and in the nursing home she had to be sedated to be managable. This was a woman whose capabilities well up into her 80s were a lighthouse in the dark night around her. The contrast between the quality of life when she was able and the quality when she was not was striking. It didn't sit well with her either. Cancer might have been more merciful in some respects since it probably wouldn't have dragged on so. I have to question whether I would wish such things on even my most vile and disgusting acquaintances. In all I can see where our priorities lie in present society. And there's something to be said about how our assumptions have led us to this pass. I, for one, think we ought to take a good look at these things and consider where we want to go from here. Best, Hugh Lovel To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 21:01:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23980 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA17688 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:46:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17645 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-7.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.7]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:46:12 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:42:59 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <12821.991217@acnet.net> To: wytze CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: GMO labeling -Reply In-reply-To: <3859A9D1.3F93F5AD@zap.a2000.nl> References: <3859A9D1.3F93F5AD@zap.a2000.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 718 Hi wytze, Thursday, December 16, 1999, 9:11:13 PM, you wrote: w> I wonder if the USDA and/or companies could be sued for the fact w> that they knowingly and willingly have introduced seeds that will w> inevitably affect productionsystems that explicitly stated, (even w> legally bound at least in the EU not to use these seeds) without w> taking any measures to protect these other systems or to make sure w> that these will not be affected. wytze de lange In order to be sure of collecting damages and / or create enough of a threat of collecting damages to impede further progress on the part of the GMO movement, it would be necessary to prove that allowing the release of GMO seed to the environment was an irresponsible act that occurred in fragrant violation of existing laws and that this caused foreseeable and quantifiable damages to the parties instituting the lawsuits. Since there is not enough data in at this point to assure accomplishing this, the thing to do is to make sure that as many as possible statements and initiatives of unconformity are registered in the appropriate forums, so that these become part of public record. This will set the stage for a later and hopefully successful effort to stop the menace posed by GMOs to the environment and human health. It won't be the effect on the organic market & / or existing organic standards that will make a decisive difference. The greater public good is the overriding factor. What's happening is barbaric but the fact is, it's become the norm in the U.S. and (even if we all know why) this never the less serves the purpose of the special interests that managed to perpetrate this crime against humanity. I'm not very familiar with the U.S. legislation regulating this area but both the EPA and FDA are involved I believe (the USDA is by nature production oriented and should not expected to change their focus or priorities); and it's important that the release of GMO's without long term studies first showing no now unforeseen negative results, be called into question in the strongest terms possible, publicly; in terms of the existing body of law and in terms of the possibly negative indications provided by the scarce body scientific literature available. If needed, stronger regulations should lobbied for. Damage has already been done and more will be. Europe is holding a much firmer ground and has taken the lead in that regard. Following that lead means that more people must be informed, more studies must be funded, more legal recourses must be instituted, and there are plenty people with money working *against* this on the opposing front. Perhaps the strongest factor would be simply to *not* buy any GMO garbage. (I certainly don't). But no one tactic is going to turn the tide and even what you suggest *could* prove to be another thorn in the side of the GMO movement, although there are stronger hands to play if enough people will take the time and move on it. Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 21:35:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24205 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06322 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06256 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09937 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA01501 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01497 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:19:38 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: sanet Subject: GMO labeling In-Reply-To: <12821.991217@acnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 719 Hello to all... During the question and answer session following a symposium in Boston about a month ago discussing the labeling of GMOs, I proposed an alternative approach to GMO labeling that I suggested might be more acceptible to industry yet of value to future studies monitoring GM proliferation in the food stream and epidemiological type studies of the impact of GMOs on human health. The approach I suggested is to require that "Materials Safety" style data sheets be publically accessible for all food products with GM ingredients. These data sheets would be accessible via the web... grocery stores could provide in store web searching of the GM data sheets. My question/comment was the last of the afternoon... perhaps this is why the panel of "experts" did not have any comment. Do SANET list readers have any comments on this concept ? Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 22:25:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24447 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03267 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:04:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03211 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.170]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:12:30 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:04:21 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Cancer risk and Life Expectancy Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 720 On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:22:00 -0500, Hugh Lovel wrote: >Are people living longer? I'm not so sure of this either as I haven't heard >that life expectancy figures have been changing significantly in the US in >recent decades, Life expectancy is an oft-misused statistic. Reminder: life-expectancy is simply the *average* age of all people who die in a given year. High infant mortality significantly lowers life expectancy numbers. By themselves, life-expectancy numbers are almost meaningless as anything but an indirect indicator of infant mortality rates, which are available directly in any case. Cancer people, BTW, play a version of this game with their so-called 5-year survival rates. The statement "Early detection saves lives" is only partly true because it is based on 5-year survival. If a given cancer will kill you in 8 years and is discovered at year 4, you count as a 'death.' If early detection discovers it at year 2, you now survive at least 5 years and count as a survivor. Equally dead in year 8, but statistically in two different categories. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 17 23:49:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25070 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26265 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26152 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-26.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.26]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:29:00 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:25:44 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15934.991217@acnet.net> To: Joel Brooks Gruver CC: sanet Subject: Re: GMO labeling In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 721 Hi Joel, Friday, December 17, 1999, you wrote: JBG> ...I proposed an alternative approach to GMO labeling JBG> ...The approach I suggested is to require that "Materials Safety" JBG> style data sheets be publically accessible for all food products JBG> with GM ingredients.... accessible via the web... grocery stores JBG> could provide in store web searching of the GM data sheets. JBG> Do SANET list readers have any comments on this concept ? As a matter of fact, yes. 1).- Excellent concept, very advanced - what should be done. 2).- Never happen within the current context. Why: a).- It's too logical. If logic prevailed, there would be no GMOs. What prevails are economic interests, and on that front, gmo proponents don't want *any* kind of labeling. They just want to sell the stuff. And you want "epidemiological type studies of the impact of GMOs on human health" (not what you said, but what else are the "Materials Safety" style data sheet going to consist of), right there in the supermarket, which are all going to be web enabled. Ideal solution in a far from ideal world. And by the time we get to that point, the battle will have been won - except it's going to won at the gut level. b).- It's too costly. Proponents would rather irredeemably degrade the environment and human health (there are other suns with planets out there, anyway). On the other hand, they *will* give up without a fight at whatever point they discover that instead of laughing all the way to the bank with all that money made peddling proprietary organisms, they are going to lose their shirts (ask Monsanto) because decent folk take offense at such gross insensitivity - the very idea is an insult to all us organisms that were biologically evolved over millenniums. c).- It presupposes an intelligent presence on the part of all those involved that would have to approve this. Being reasonable will be necessary in order to document a strong foundation that justifies taking a strong stance - reasonably good research must be done. But in the end, only a stubborn, mean and dirty no - as stubborn, mean and dirty as the whole idea of GMOs is stupid, will get the job done. JBG> My question/comment was the last of the afternoon... perhaps this is JBG> why the panel of "experts" did not have any comment. Are you kidding? Do you really think the lack of response was due to it being the last question? You mean you think they were exhausted by then? This is a war. An economic war, and a war of credibility. That's how it is, Joel. So get some good research done on this. Problem is, that takes time, and meanwhile they'll be out pushing the stuff while they can. True or false? (Rhetorical question). Douglas Hinds *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** JBG> Hello to all... JBG> During the question and answer session following a symposium in Boston JBG> about a month ago discussing the labeling of GMOs, I proposed an JBG> alternative approach to GMO labeling that I suggested might be JBG> more acceptible to industry yet of value to future studies monitoring GM JBG> proliferation in the food stream and epidemiological type studies of the JBG> impact of GMOs on human health. The approach I suggested is to require JBG> that "Materials Safety" style data sheets be publically accessible for all JBG> food products with GM ingredients. These data sheets would be accessible JBG> via the web... grocery stores could provide in store web searching of the JBG> GM data sheets. JBG> My question/comment was the last of the afternoon... perhaps this is JBG> why the panel of "experts" did not have any comment. JBG> Do SANET list readers have any comments on this concept ? JBG> Joel Gruver JBG> Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment JBG> Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 10:11:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28794 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03138 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:24:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03067 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:24:00 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.204]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:24:01 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991218082346.008907a0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:23:46 -0600 To: Subject: Re: New Novartis Patents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 722 In a related note, I was thinking of a patent about as broad as this one. I hope in the near future to file a patent on the addition and removal of electrons from diatomic oxygen by living organisms and the use of di-hydrogen oxide in biological systems. I will be rich, Rich, RICH, when my lawyers and political consultants finish bribing, er, negotiating the special laws through Congre$$ needed for these patents. (Claritin, anyone?) Mike, smiling over his coffee, Miller "What is the difference between a bribe and a campaign contribution? About 5 syllables." from an article in the Progressive Populist >> I had a look at Novartis patent wo9935913 which can be accessed at >> http://ep.espacenet.com/ >> >> >> It states: >> "Present invention relates to a method of controlling pests with a >> nitroimino or nitroguanidino compound, especially thiamethoxam, >> imidacioprid, Ti-435, thiacloprid, and at least one auxiliary to the >> transgenic crop plant." >> Preferred are imidacloprid and thiamethoxan. >> Targets are especially insects of the order Acarina. >> Advantageous properties: extension of the pesticidal spectrum of action >> to other pests, for example to resistant strains , sufficient control of >> the pests with the aid of the composition where nitroimino or transgenic >> plants alone are entirely ineffective". >> >> First, it seems this is more a discovery than an invention. The >> application states that "surprisingly, it has been found that >> nitroimino- and nitroguanidino compounds exceed the Bt working of >> transgenic plants" . >> >> However, more important, it seems to be a cover up to hide the >> inefficiency of Bt plants and the fact that resistant strains have >> developed!! >> The application refers to the possible components of the compositions. >> >> "the action of nitroimino and nitroguanidino can be extended >> substantially by adding other insecticidally, acaricidally and/or >> fungicidally active ingredients such as: >> organophosphorus compounds, nitrophenols and derivatives, fornamidines, >> ureas, carbamates, pyrethroids, chlorinated hydrocarbons. Especially >> preferred components in mixtures are for example abamectin, emamectin, >> spinosad, pyrnetrozine, fenoxycarb, Ti-435, fipronil, pyriproxyfen, >> diazonin or diafenthyrion. >> Also other auxiliaries can be used in the composition such as , >> stabilizers, antifoams, preservatives, bactericides, fungicides, >> nematicides, molluscicides or herbicides." >> The compositions are pretty flexible given the following statement in >> the application: >> "As a rule, the compositions within the scope of invention comprise >> 0,1-99%, in particular 0,1-95% of a nitroimino or nitroguanidino >> compound and 1-99%, in particular 5-99% of -at least- one solid or >> liquid auxiliary." >> >> The composition can be sprayed, preferrably foliar spraying but can also >> be added to the soil in granular form or can be added as coating to the >> seed. >> >> The "invention" apllies for Bt plants and for GE lectinplants! >> But also gives a whole list of other substances, which I will give in a >> next message. >> wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 11:07:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29167 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09868 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:21:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09791 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-002tnchatP271.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.73]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20655 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:21:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <385BA6AC.2EF0A1D9@sprintmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:22:20 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: New Novartis Patents Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 723 Mike, A great idea, but my lawyers will be talking to your lawyers about patent infringement. You see, I'm working on patenting the enzymes which convert di-hydrogen oxide and carbon dioxide into sugars. (I also plan to cover my ass and patent the conversion of sugars into carbohydrates.) Future plans include the patenting of the entire carbon cycle. I can hire Pinkerton detectives to check around to see if anyone is cycling carbon. I plan to start with the big farms and work my way down to yards and gardens. Think about it- everyone with soil will have to pay royalties. Bill Gates will be a pauper by comparison. I will control the entire earth! So, looks like I can either drive you to your knees with costly litigation or buy you out. Hmmmm... The first would be more fun, seeing as how I'm into power and control anyway. Perhaps I will just toy with you to watch you squirm. On second thought, a hostile takeover would be much less expensive, and money IS everything. Or is it power? AH! There's a third alternative. You could franchise the use of oxides of hydrogen and I, the use of oxides of carbon. We could form a cartel that, on the surface would look like good ole 'merican capitalism, but would really be a gentleman's agreement. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more...) There's plenty of money out there for you and me- but, we don't want the hoarders to get it! And thanks for a hearty laugh! Great medicine! Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 11:27:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29272 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20499 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20495 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29015 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11841 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:42:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:42:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Global Free Enterprise at work. Was: Cancer risk and Life Expectancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 724 Smokers Beware -------------- Found in: Notebook News of the Wierd The Spectator Raleigh NC http://www.spectatoronline.com SYNERGY! In October, the pharmaceutical division of Japan Tobacco, the world's third-largest cigarette company, bought the rights to lung cancer vaccines now under development by the U.S. firms Cell Genesys abd Coryxa. Now under one roof are the cause, treatment and potential prevention of lung cancer. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 14:58:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00562 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01559 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:31:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01553 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:31:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26587 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA22510; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm9-32.nidlink.com [216.18.141.87]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA22210; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:31:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:34:58 -0800 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, From: Charles Benbrook Subject: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 725 Joel has suggested that what amounts to GMO "Material Safety" data sheets be placed on the Internet, with instructions to shoppers re how to access them. Perhaps someday people will just swipe their genetic ID card when entering the store, embedded with their various genetic weaknesses, allergies, and food-related sensitivities, so that upon check-out, the machine blocks them from buying food that is deemed possibly not good for them. There is basic information on GMO foods that should be much more readily accessible to people -- consumers, food processors, buyers, researchers, health care people. Both simple, lay person versions and technical versions should be made available including the nature of the gene construct, where new genes came from, what is known about their function, marker genes, promoter(s) used, what is known about placement in the genome of the transformed crop. Most of this information is publicly available in various places -- EPA documents, USDA or FDA applications -- but it is hard to get at and often hard to interpret. Regardless of how labeling unfolds, the use of "Material Safety" data sheets for GMOs is a good idea. Government should work to define common formats and get caught up with foods already in commerce. Over time, the content and formats will evolve. Providing information such as the above should be seen as an essential component of an overall consumer education program on GMO foods, of which labeling is another core component. Non-commercial, non-spun Information readily accessible to consumers is a key component of effective labeling because it heightens the chance the concerned consumer will become better able to make their own informed choices. It seems most everyone accepts this as a valid goal. Having learned more, some will decide there is no reason to shun GMO foods and some will decide otherwise. That is how open markets are supposed to work. Solutions will seem harder to reach and will, in the end prove more costly in lots of ways if the biotech industry and government continue to argue that there is nothing risky or different with GMO foods -- a position that most members of the public reject for a variety of reasons, including several valid ones. Those who think education or PR campaigns can convince people that moving genes around and changing their expression as now done with biotechnology is "normal" have some rough years ahead. Information and choice and openness are the only ways for the ag biotech industry to move forward now. If they continue as they have in the past, the multiple costs of doing business will go up and will more than erode any potential commercial advantage, rendering the technologies uneconomical, and doing things like eroding stock value. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 16:32:09 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01136 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21647 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:58:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21636 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zQvQ-000167-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:58:00 +0100 Message-ID: <385BFAE3.E0EB6D3F@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:21:40 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: New Novartis Patents IV References: <385BFA52.F461E3BA@zap.a2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 726 : > As said in a previous post the "invention" mentioned in patents WO > 9935913 and WO9935910 can be applied to Herbicide Resistant (HR) crops. > The patent, in Table C, > lists the different kinds of HR and the crops to which they apply. > > The crops to which all HR listed in the patent apply are: cotton, rice, > brassica, potatoes, tomatoes, cucurbits, soybeans, maize, wheat, > pomefruit, stonefruit, citrus. . > > The different types of HR are: > 1)ALS = Acetolactate Synthase > Gives tolerance to: Sulfonylureas. Included are: Imidazolinones, > Triazolopyrimidines, Dimethoxypyrimidines and N-Acylsulfonamides: > Sulfonylureas such as Chlorsyluran, Chlorimuron, A whole list of > sulfurons: Ethameth-, Met-, Pro-, Tria-, Cino-, Trifu-, Oxa-, Ben-, > Fluza-, Nico-, Rim-, Thifen-, Pyrazo-, Clopyra-, Azim-, Imazo-, Sulfo-, > Amido-, and Flupyr Sulfuron. > Tribenuron, ACC322140, NC 330, CGA 362622. > Imidazolinones such as Imazamethabenz, Imazaquin, Imazamethyphyr, > Imazethaphyr, Imazapyr, and Imazamox. > Triazolopyrimidines such as DE 511, Flumetsulam and Chloransulam. > Dimethoxypyrimidines such as Pyrithiobac, Pyriminobac, Bispyribac and > Pyribenzoxim. > > 2) ACCase = Acetyl-COACarboxylase > Gives tolerance to: Diclofop-methyl, Fluazifop-P-butyl, > Haloxyfop-P-methyl, Quizalafop-P-Ethyl, clodinafop-propargyl, > fenoxapro-ethyl, Tepraloxydim, Sethoxydim, Cycloxidim, Cloproxydim, > Tralkoxydim, Butoxydim, Calodyxim, Clafoxydim, Clethodim. > > 3)Nitrilase. > Gives tolerance to: Bromoxynil, Ioxynil > > 4)IPS = Inhibition of Protein Synthesis > Gives tolerance to: Chloroacetanilides such as Alachlor, Acetochlor, > Dimethenamid. > > 5)HOM = Hormone Mimic. > Gives tolerance to: 2,4-D Mecoprop-P > > 6)PROTOX = Protox Inhibitors > Gives tolerance to: For instance: Diohenyethers such as Acilluorfen, > Aclonifen, Bifenox, > Chlornitrofen, Ethoxyfen, Fluoroglycofen, Fomesafen, Lactofen, > Oxyfluorfen; Imides such as Azafenidin, Carfentrazone-ethyl, > Cinidonethyl, Flumiclorac-pentyl, Flumioxazin, Fluthiacet-methyl, > Oxadiargyl, Oxadiazon, Pentoxazone, Sulfentrazone, Imides and others > such as Flumipropyn, Flupropacil, Nipyraclofen and Thidiazimin; and > further Fluazolate and Pyraflufen-ethyl. > > 7)EPSPS = 5-Enolpyruvyl-3-Phosphoshikimate Synthetase. > Gives tolerance to: Glyphosate and/or Sulphosate > > 8) GS = Glutamine Synthetase > Gives tolerance to: Gluphosinate and /or Bialaphos > > Wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 17:23:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01448 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23995 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:59:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23980 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zRpx-0003lz-00; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:56:25 +0100 Message-ID: <385C088F.916E9336@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:20:00 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: biotech_activists@iatp.org, Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, gentech@gen.free.de, "GMO-L@cornell.edu" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: New Novartis Patent V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 727 Novartis patent WO 9935913 gives 22 biological examples of the "invention". They do not if and if yes which auxiliary was used. Essential data of the biological examples are: Typical set up of a test: B1: Action Against Anthonomus grandis, Spodoptera spp, Heliothis spp. Young transgenic cotton which express the delta(?WdL)-endotoxin CryIIIA are sprayed with an aqueous emulsion spray mixture comprising 100, 50, 10, 5, 1 ppm Imidacloprid respectively. After the spray coating has dried on the cotton plants are populated with 10 adult Anthonomus grandis, 10 Spodoptera littorales larvae or 10 Heliothis virescens larvae respectively and introduced into a plastic container. Evaluation takes place 3 to 10 days later. The percentage reduction in population, or the percentage reduction in feeding damage (% action), is determined by comparing the number of dead beetles and the feeding damage to larvae on the transgenic cotton plants with that of non-transgenic cotton plants which have been treated with an emulsion spray mixture comprising Imidacloprid and conventional CryIIIA-toxin at a concentration of in each case 100, 50, 10, 5, 1 ppm respectively. In the test the control of the tested insects in the transgenic plant is superior, while it is insufficient in the non-transgenic plant. B2-B6 are variations of the same set-up, conclusion the same. B7: Action Against Ostrinia nubilalis, Spodoptera spp, Heliothis spp. A plot (a) planted with maize cv KnockOut(r) and an adjacent plot (b) of the same size which is planted with conventional maize, both showing natural infestation with Ostrinia nubilalis, Spodoptera or Heliothis, are sprayed with an aqueous emulsion spray mixture comprising 200, 100, 50, 10, 5, 1 ppm of Ti-435. Immediately afterwards plot (b) is treated with an emulsion spray mixture comprising 200, 100, 50 ,10, 5, 1 ppm of the endotoxin expressed by KnockOut(r). Evaluation takes place 6 days later. The percentage reduction in population (% action) is determined by comparing the number of dead pests on the plants of plot (a) with that on the plants of plot (b). Improved control of Ostrinia nubilalis, Spodoptera spp. or Heliothis spp. is observed on the plants of plot(a) while plot(b) shows a control level of not more than 60%. B8 - B22 are variations with dose up to 400 ppm. Two tests are with pots placed in an aqueous emulsion. Some tests of 21 days. Mainly cotton, rice and maize plants. 4 different insects. wytze in part VI: Synergy and the Advantages. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 17:48:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01538 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12226 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:27:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12219 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28922 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zSJv-0005Ta-00; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:27:23 +0100 Message-ID: <385C0FCC.FC7DC92D@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:50:52 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Benbrook CC: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, PatrickMadden@compuserve.com Subject: Re: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets References: <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 728 Charles, But it's a fair question to ask how you are going to achive this choice in the fields isn't it? E.g. How do you avoid contamination? wytze Charles Benbrook wrote: > Joel has suggested that what amounts to GMO "Material Safety" data sheets > be placed on the Internet, with instructions to shoppers re how to access > them. Perhaps someday people will just swipe their genetic ID card when > entering the store, embedded with their various genetic weaknesses, > allergies, and food-related sensitivities, so that upon check-out, the > machine blocks them from buying food that is deemed possibly not good for > them. > > There is basic information on GMO foods that should be much more readily > accessible to people -- consumers, food processors, buyers, researchers, > health care people. Both simple, lay person versions and technical > versions should be made available including the nature of the gene > construct, where new genes came from, what is known about their function, > marker genes, promoter(s) used, what is known about placement in the genome > of the transformed crop. Most of this information is publicly available in > various places -- EPA documents, USDA or FDA applications -- but it is hard > to get at and often hard to interpret. Regardless of how labeling unfolds, > the use of "Material Safety" data sheets for GMOs is a good idea. > Government should work to define common formats and get caught up with > foods already in commerce. Over time, the content and formats will evolve. > > Providing information such as the above should be seen as an essential > component of an overall consumer education program on GMO foods, of which > labeling is another core component. Non-commercial, non-spun Information > readily accessible to consumers is a key component of effective labeling > because it heightens the chance the concerned consumer will become better > able to make their own informed choices. It seems most everyone accepts > this as a valid goal. Having learned more, some will decide there is no > reason to shun GMO foods and some will decide otherwise. That is how open > markets are supposed to work. > > Solutions will seem harder to reach and will, in the end prove more costly > in lots of ways if the biotech industry and government continue to argue > that there is nothing risky or different with GMO foods -- a position that > most members of the public reject for a variety of reasons, including > several valid ones. Those who think education or PR campaigns can convince > people that moving genes around and changing their expression as now done > with biotechnology is "normal" have some rough years ahead. > > Information and choice and openness are the only ways for the ag biotech > industry to move forward now. If they continue as they have in the past, > the multiple costs of doing business will go up and will more than erode > any potential commercial advantage, rendering the technologies > uneconomical, and doing things like eroding stock value. > > chuck > > > > > > Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com > Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net > 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 21:11:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02507 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04131 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:42:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04120 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.231.172] by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:41:48 -0600 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:38:40 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13818.991218@acnet.net> To: Charles Benbrook CC: sanet Subject: Re: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets In-reply-To: <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> References: <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 729 Hi Charles, Saturday, December 18, 1999, 1:34:58 PM, you wrote: CB> ... There is basic information on GMO foods that should be much CB> more readily accessible to people --... simple, ... and technical CB> versions ... including the nature of the gene construct, where new CB> genes came from, what is known about their function, marker genes, CB> promoter(s) used, what is known about placement in the genome of CB> the transformed crop. My point was that by the time so much attention has been given to the issue that the need for making this kind of info available to the public (in supermarkets, yet) is recognized, that same attention will have seen through the fallacy behind and obviated the presence of GMO's in the marketplace. Recombinant gene technologies' only valid use is in correcting congenital pathologies and their presence in the food supply and on the open market simply demonstrates a lack of criteria that is not gratuitous, but rather fomented. I believe that the will to do as you and wytz suggests is simply not there. CB> Most of this information is publicly available in various places CB> -- EPA documents, USDA or FDA applications -- but it is hard to CB> get at and often hard to interpret. Regardless of how labeling CB> unfolds, the use of "Material Safety" data sheets for GMOs is a CB> good idea. Yes, but unfortunately one that will not be implemented in the near future. Science is one thing and the market is another. There are vested interests involved that protect those interests. Take medications: All have counter indications, adverse reactions and side effects that are well documented and often potentially serious. Yet how many patients receive the benefit of that information? And how many read the monographs of the medications they take? (or know what a mongraph is, for that matter)?It's all let George do it, where George is an MD. who gets his by prescribing all this. And we are talking about possibly lethal reactions! The problem is cultural, and the culture is cultivated by the vested interests. The Internet is a powerful tool capable of reverting that, but this too is now being made bland by commercial interests. In short, I can't share your optimism. It will take making a better and distinct alternative readily available - a parallel and clearly superior set of products accessible to the public, in terms of both access and cost. Organic foods are not there yet but are certainly a forerunner of what's needed. CB> Government should work to define common formats and get caught up CB> with foods already in commerce. Over time, the content and formats CB> will evolve. It will take lighting a fire under them, and many answers will originate in private settings. CB> Providing information such as the above should be seen as an CB> essential component of an overall consumer education program on CB> GMO foods, of which labeling is another core component. Agreed. But when will this happen and what will trigger that? The culture level required for this is still underdeveloped. CB> Non-commercial, non-spun Information readily accessible to CB> consumers is a key component of effective labeling because it CB> heightens the chance the concerned consumer will become better CB> able to make their own informed choices. It seems most everyone CB> accepts this as a valid goal. Having learned more, some will CB> decide there is no reason to shun GMO foods and some will decide CB> otherwise. That is how open markets are supposed to work. There is a tacit assumption here that no real and present danger exists from releasing these organisms to the environment. No precedent exists supporting that conclusion. CB> Solutions will seem harder to reach and will, in the end prove CB> more costly in lots of ways if the biotech industry and government CB> continue to argue that there is nothing risky or different with CB> GMO foods -- a position that most members of the public reject for CB> a variety of reasons, including several valid ones. Those who CB> think education or PR campaigns can convince people that moving CB> genes around and changing their expression as now done with CB> biotechnology is "normal" have some rough years ahead. Here we agree. This is a gut level issue that can be supported by facts and more information should be made available. But for now, that data isn't readily available, nor have definitive conclusions been reached. Are enough studies of this type being funded? CB> Information and choice and openness are the only ways for the ag CB> biotech industry to move forward now. Yes, but either this has not been recognized or attempts to minimize the importance of it and stifle it's progress are consciously being made. I would say that "Information and choice and openness are the only ways" for an *alternative* to the ag biotech industry to move forward. CB> If they continue as they have in the past, the multiple costs of CB> doing business will go up and will more than erode any potential CB> commercial advantage, rendering the technologies uneconomical, and CB> doing things like eroding stock value. CB> chuck That is what's happening all right, and it's kind of amusing to watch. This time things will take their proper course. The question is, who will do the charting of that course! Douglas Hinds To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 18 23:57:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03424 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:57:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15947 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:42:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15911 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.254.241.230] (term6-38.vta.west.net [205.254.241.230]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0ECC724B02 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:42:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: Cancer diagnosis is often missed: British Medical Journal, 10/98 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:42:11 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 730 Bart wrote: >...a lot of cancer went >undiagnosed, or people died younger from something else. My >great-grandfather died of "urinary blockage" that was almost certainly >prostate cancer. His son was diagnosed with prostate cancer, but died >of something else (at 92) before the cancer could get him. > >For me it is the former 1-in-8 rate that is doubtful. That *also* makes >the conclusion of greatly increasing cancer incidence suspect, but from >the *other* end. In confirmation of his suspicions, the following: ----- British Medical Journal 1998;317:1033 ( 17 October ) Cancer diagnosis is often missed Janice Hopkins Tanne, New York Lethal cancers were not diagnosed or were misdiagnosed before death in 44% of cases, according to a 10 year retrospective study of postmortem examinations at a US academic medical centre. This discrepancy calls into serious question all public health statistics based on death certificate information, as well as clinical decisions, according to Dr George Lundberg, a pathologist and editor of JAMA. Dr Elizabeth Burton and colleagues reviewed data on all 1105 men and women in whom postmortem examinations were carried out between 1986 and 1995 at the Medical Center of Louisiana in New Orleans (JAMA 1998;280:1245-8). The medical centre's rate of postmortem examination was unusually high (42%) thanks to cooperation with the local coroner. Because diagnoses from death certificates are unreliable, Dr Burton gathered clinical diagnoses from surgical pathology reports, cytology reports, and patient charts. She found 250 malignant tumours in 225 patients. Of the 250 cancers, 111 were misdiagnosed or undiagnosed before death (103 undiagnosed, 8 misdiagnosed). Only 34 of the tumours were clinically suspected. The undiagnosed cancer was the cause of death in 57% of patients. The most common undiagnosed cancers affected the respiratory tract, gastrointestinal tract, and genitourinary tract. Although southern Louisiana does not have an unusually high incidence of cancer, it has a high death rate from cancer. The medical centre, which is also a trauma centre, serves an indigent black population in whom substance misuse, comorbid illness, and lack of regular medical care are common. Many patients in whom postmortem examinations were conducted in this study died soon after admission with advanced disease. "Low tech autopsy trumps high tech medicine in getting the right answer," Dr Lundberg said. In the United States the rate of postmortem examinations for patients dying in hospital has dropped from about 50% in the 1950s to perhaps 5% or zero in community hospitals and nursing homes. From the 1960s, hospital pathologists lost interest in postmortem examinations as they began to profit from laboratory tests paid for by Medicare health insurance for elderly people, according to Dr Lundberg. FAIR USE NOTICE: Distributed without profit for purposes of research and education, fair use as permitted in section 107 of US Copyright Law. For reproduction beyond such fair use, permission required from the copyright owner. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 00:08:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03484 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA21148 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:52:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21098 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.254.241.230] (term6-37.vta.west.net [205.254.241.229]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A2F6524DFD for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:52:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: Pollutants May Pose Greater Danger to Women Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:52:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 731 http://www.healthy.net/library/newsletters/Update/womenpollutants.htm Today's Healthy News Pollutants May Pose Greater Danger to Women By DAMARIS CHRISTENSEN Medical Tribune News Service WASHINGTON _ Women may be more vulnerable to environmental toxins than men, according to research presented here Thursday at a conference on women's health. Scientists believe exposure to environmental chemicals, as well as stress, may both increase a woman's chance of developing certain diseases and worsen the symptoms of these diseases, said Anne Sassaman, director of extramural research at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences in Research Triangle Park, N.C. These diseases include breast cancer and autoimmune conditions such as multiple sclerosis. The reason for women's increased susceptibility, researchers believe, may be their smaller size. The same exposure can mean a higher dose and thus a greater effect. Furthermore, many environmental toxins can be stored in body fat. Women tend to have more body fat than men, and pregnancy, breast feeding, dieting, menopause and aging all may release these toxins from fat, Sassaman said. Genetics could also play a role. "The message is clear: there is much to learn, there are very significant gender differences, and we are not just talking about so-called women's diseases," said Dr. Lynn Goldman, assistant administrator for prevention, pesticides and toxic substances at Environmental Protection Agency in Washington. Yet, it isn't known whether women are exposed to more potentially harmful agents or are simply more vulnerable than men, in part because such exposures are difficult to measure, according to a recent study by the Institute of Medicine in Washington, D.C., a federal advisory group. The report called for federal research on this issue, as well as on the effects of pollutant exposure during puberty, pregnancy and menopause. In response, several federal agencies promised additional research funds for women's health and environmental studies, as well as better coordination of research efforts. Other research presented at the conference, sponsored by the Washington-based Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research, included: o Female smokers are more likely than male smokers to suffer DNA damage and gene mutations that contribute to cancer, although studies suggesting this link have been very small, said Dr. Peter Shields of the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Md. o Low-level lead exposure may increase a woman's chance of developing high blood pressure, according to a study of 284 women. Women with the highest bone levels of lead (measured by sampling the kneecap) were about twice as likely to develop high blood pressure as those with the lowest levels, reported Dr. Susan A. Korrick, an instructor in medicine at Harvard Medical School in Boston. o A study of 2,000 women found that older women had higher blood levels of lead, probably because bones release stored lead as they weaken after menopause. However, women who used hormone replacement therapy did not have more lead in their blood. It is possible that higher lead levels may contribute to the rise in high blood pressure, kidney dysfunction and memory difficulties after menopause, the researchers said. o Preliminary information collected as part of a nationwide study suggests that women exposed to environmental pollutants may be more likely to have diabetes, kidney problems, liver problems and urinary tract disorders, and are also more likely to develop breast, cervical and uterine cancers. Men did not report increases in diseases with pollutant exposure. ----- - message sent by infoterra@cedar.univie.ac.at to signoff from the list, send an email to majordomo@cedar.univie.ac.at the message body should read unsubscribe infoterra your@email.address - To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 09:48:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06509 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16261 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:00:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16229 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zgrS-0000wS-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:58:58 +0100 Message-ID: <385CEA02.9CDAD93D@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:21:54 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: biotech_activists@iatp.org, Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, "GMO-L@cornell.edu" , gentech@gen.free.de, "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: New Novartis Patent VI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 732 Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in patent WO9935913. "In particular, it has been found, surprisingly, that within the scope of invention the pesticidal activity of a nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound in combination with the effect expressed by the transgenic useful plant, is not only additive in comparison with the pesticidal activities of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino- compound alone and of the transgenic useful plant alone, as can generally be expected, but that a synergistic effect is present. The term "synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers to other advantageous properties of the method according to the invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and the transgenic useful plant alone. Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: -extension of the pesticidal spectrum of action to other pests, for example to resistant strains; -reduction in the application rate of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound, or sufficient control of the pests with the aid of the compositions according to the invention even at an application rate of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound alone and the transgenic useful plant alone are entirely ineffective; -enhanced crop safety; -improved quality of produce such as higher content of nutrient or oil, better fiber quality, enhanced shelf life, reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, reduced content of residues or unfavorable constituents of any kind or better digestability; -improved tolerance to unfavorable temperatures, draughts or salt content of water; -enhanced assimilation rates such as nutrient uptake and photosynthesis; -favorable crop properties such as altered leaf aerea, reduced vegetative growth, increased yields, favorable seedshape/seedthickness or germinisation properties, altered colonialisation by saprophytes or epiphytes, reduction of senescence, improved phytoalexin production, improved or accelerated ripening, flower set increase, reduced boll fall and shattering, better attraction to beneficials and predators, increased pollination, reduced attraction to birds; or other advantages known to those skilled in the art" I will check some of the details of the patent again, especially the part that mentions a reduction rate of 40-50%! Wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 12:24:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07277 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24583 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:53:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24579 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zjYQ-0001zQ-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:51:30 +0100 Message-ID: <385D129C.DCC97F8B@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:15:08 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: biotech_activists@iatp.org, Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, gentech@gen.free.de, "GMO-L@cornell.edu" , "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: New Novartis Patent: Final. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 733 Patent WO9935913 is built up as follows: p1-6: description of the "invention" and of the advantageous properties. p6-57: Table A: a list of all kind expressed principles (Herbicide, insect, virus, fungal etc. resistancies) and corresponding crop phenotypes/tolerances. p 57-63: crops to which the "invention" can be applied, auxiliary substances that can be used and diffrent kind of apllication methods (sprays, powders, granules etc.) p63-83: Table B: listing of range of working of different Insecticidal Resistancies (Bt. etc.) p83-90: Methods for Table B. (see below) p90-94: Table C: List of different Herbicide Resistancies. p94-121:Methods for table C (see below) p121-129: Biological Examples p.130: Claims Some additional info on HR crops. First, in part IV one class of HR crops was forgotten: Class 9) HPPD = Hydroxphenylpyruva: dioxygenase Gives tolerance to: Iaoxazoles such as Isoxaflutol, Isoxachlotol. Triones such as Sulcotrion, Mesotrion. A correction for PROTOX: In stead of dioheny it should read: diphenylethers. In table A some more herbicides are mentioned: For PROTOX: phenylpyrazoles, phenopylate For ALS: phtalides, pyrimidyloxybenzotes For ACCase: Aryloxyphenoxyalkanecarbolyxic acids, cyclohexanediones. Resistance to Sulfonylureas can also be obtained by Cytochrome P450 eg P450 SU1 which also gives resitance to Xenobiotics. Table A describes resistancies for the following crops: Maize, wheat, barley, soy, potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, grapes, pome fruits, Brassica vegetables, Oil Seed rape, sugarcane, cotton, banana, melons, sugarbeet-beetroot, sunflowers. A typical Method as described in p83-90 (variation only in crop and apllied substance) is as follows: A method of controlling pests comprising the application of thiamethoxam to transgenic rice weherein the combination of the active principle expressed by the transgenic plant and the pest to be controlled correspond to anyone of the indiviualised combinations of Table B. For the methods of p.94-121 (the variation is in target insects and applied substance) it reads: A method of controlling representatives of the genus Ephestia comprising the application of Ti-435 to a herbicidically resistant transgenic crop wherein the combination of the active principle expressed by the transgenic plant and the crop to be protected against the pest correspond to anyone of the lines of Table C. On page 59-60 it states: "It has emerged that the method according to the invention is valuable preventatively and/or curatively in the field of pest control even at low use concentrations of the pesticidal composition and that a very favourable biocidal spectrum is achieved thereby. Combined with a favourable compatibility of the composition employed with warm blooded species, fish and plants, the method according to the invention can be employed against all or individual stages of normally sensitive, but also of normally resistant animal pests such as insects and representatives of the oreder Acarina, depending on the species of the transgenic crop plant to be protected from attack by pests. The insecticidal and/or acaricidal effect of the method according to the invention may become apparent directly, i.e in a destruction of the pests which occurs immediately or only after some time has elapsed, for example, during codysis(?WdL), or indirectly, for example as a reduced oviposition and/or hatching rate, the good action corresponding to a destruction rate (mortality) of at least 40-50%". The application was filed 14 january 1999. Title of the Patent: The use of Neonicodinoids on transgenic plants. End. Wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 12:42:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07380 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04485 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:13:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04481 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:12:58 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.182]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:12:57 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991219111232.007dd560@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:12:32 -0600 To: Subject: New Novartis Patent VI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in >patent WO9935913. The term >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and >the transgenic useful plant alone. >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: >-enhanced crop safety; snip > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think about their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the reduced mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end users as higher food costs? Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and defunded Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal battle with a large corporation. On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, I patent how people can use your products including the use of your pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. I now control how your customers can use your products through the license they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your products. So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your customers will I take in license fees? " I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its own avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" with apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 13:45:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07927 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19549 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:03:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19541 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zkft-0005Z8-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:03:17 +0100 Message-ID: <385D236A.DF35C9C6@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:26:50 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmiller@pcsia.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI References: <3.0.6.32.19991219111232.007dd560@pcsia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 735 I wonder if this mycotoxin story did not come up as a result of the patent, given the fact that the patent was filed 14 january 1999. Furthermore, the "advantage" of increased pollination may be a great comfort to all of us. I also wonder where the New Scientist got the 20% yield increase. It is not mentioned in the patent. wytze P.S. I loved your new patent ideas! mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > >patent WO9935913. > The term > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > >-enhanced crop safety; snip > > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip > > I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think about > their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? > > Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the reduced > mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the > pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that > relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other > factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end users > as higher food costs? > > Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large > corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and defunded > Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only > keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even > challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal battle > with a large corporation. > > On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this > patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, > > I patent how people can use your products including the use of your > pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. > > I now control how your customers can use your products through the license > they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your products. > > So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your customers > will I take in license fees? " > > I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its own > avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" with > apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 15:15:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08255 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27007 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:48:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26992 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA05814; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm5-48.nidlink.com [216.18.141.55]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA02594; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:48:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912191948.LAA02594@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:51:38 -0800 To: wytze From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI Cc: biotech_activists@iatp.org, Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, "GMO-L@cornell.edu" , gentech@gen.free.de, "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" In-Reply-To: <385CEA02.9CDAD93D@zap.a2000.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 736 The claims in this patent strike me as almost unbelievable; at a minimum, they are incredibly broad. I can imagine some such impacts-correlations between use of a pesticide and a transgenic corn variety, but to present them as a novel patentable discovery is to, in effect, lay claim to many basic physiological processes in plants. Thanks to Wytze for digging deeper into this, soon I hope to spend some time reading the patents, and may have some observations to share. I hope others will do so as well, for I see this patent as fundamentally important and new. The scientific and grower communities need to understand exactly what is at stake if this patent, and others like it, are granted and what the commercial and economic consequences might be. chuck At 03:21 PM 12/19/99 +0100, wytze wrote: >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in >patent WO9935913. > >"In particular, it has been found, surprisingly, that within the scope >of invention the pesticidal activity of a nitroimino- or >nitroguanidino-compound in combination with the effect expressed by the >transgenic useful plant, is not only additive in comparison with the >pesticidal activities of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino- compound >alone and of the transgenic useful plant alone, as can generally be >expected, but that a synergistic effect is present. The term >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and >the transgenic useful plant alone. >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: >-extension of the pesticidal spectrum of action to other pests, for >example to resistant strains; >-reduction in the application rate of the nitroimino- or >nitroguanidino-compound, or sufficient control of the pests with the aid >of the compositions according to the invention even at an application >rate of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound alone and the >transgenic useful plant alone are entirely ineffective; >-enhanced crop safety; >-improved quality of produce such as higher content of nutrient or oil, >better fiber quality, enhanced shelf life, reduced content of toxic >products such as mycotoxins, reduced content of residues or unfavorable >constituents of any kind or better digestability; >-improved tolerance to unfavorable temperatures, draughts or salt >content of water; >-enhanced assimilation rates such as nutrient uptake and photosynthesis; > >-favorable crop properties such as altered leaf aerea, reduced >vegetative growth, increased yields, favorable seedshape/seedthickness >or germinisation properties, altered colonialisation by saprophytes or >epiphytes, reduction of senescence, improved phytoalexin production, >improved or accelerated ripening, flower set increase, reduced boll fall >and shattering, better attraction to beneficials and predators, >increased pollination, reduced attraction to birds; or other advantages >known to those skilled in the art" > >I will check some of the details of the patent again, especially the >part that mentions a reduction rate of 40-50%! >Wytze > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 15:24:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08292 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29319 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:01:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29301 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-145.csj.net [12.29.22.145]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07543; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:01:25 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: "'wytze'" Cc: Subject: RE: New Novartis Patent VI Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:57:42 -0600 Message-ID: <000201bf4a5b$57177e20$60fefea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <385D236A.DF35C9C6@zap.a2000.nl> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 737 It was filed on January 15, 1999 and it has been approved already? Supposedly the USPTO is above corruption, but it usually takes at least 18 months for the first review. 95 % of patents are rejected at the first review. It takes about 6 months from approval to issuance, so this patent was reviewed and approved within 5 months of application. HMMM. Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of wytze Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:27 PM To: mmiller@pcsia.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI I wonder if this mycotoxin story did not come up as a result of the patent, given the fact that the patent was filed 14 january 1999. Furthermore, the "advantage" of increased pollination may be a great comfort to all of us. I also wonder where the New Scientist got the 20% yield increase. It is not mentioned in the patent. wytze P.S. I loved your new patent ideas! mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > >patent WO9935913. > The term > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > >-enhanced crop safety; snip > > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip > > I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think about > their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? > > Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the reduced > mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the > pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that > relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other > factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end users > as higher food costs? > > Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large > corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and defunded > Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only > keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even > challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal battle > with a large corporation. > > On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this > patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, > > I patent how people can use your products including the use of your > pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. > > I now control how your customers can use your products through the license > they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your products. > > So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your customers > will I take in license fees? " > > I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its own > avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" with > apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 16:02:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08639 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:02:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09616 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09595 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zmrX-0005KN-00; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:23:27 +0100 Message-ID: <385D4445.DDDB1B06@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:47:01 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gcr@rhealiving.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI References: <000201bf4a5b$57177e20$60fefea9@donna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 738 As far as I understand it is not yet approved. It is an application and I hope to find out if comments to the patent offices are possible. In the mean time, the fun of this patent is that it reveals a huge amount of things so thank you Novartis for this information. Wytze Donna Fezler wrote: > It was filed on January 15, 1999 and it has been approved already? > Supposedly the USPTO is above corruption, but it usually takes at least 18 > months for the first review. 95 % of patents are rejected at the first > review. It takes about 6 months from approval to issuance, so this patent > was reviewed and approved within 5 months of application. HMMM. > > Donna Fezler > GCR > Jacksonville, IL > > http://www.rhealiving.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On > Behalf Of wytze > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:27 PM > To: mmiller@pcsia.com > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI > > I wonder if this mycotoxin story did not come up as a result of the patent, > given > the fact that the patent was filed 14 january 1999. > Furthermore, the "advantage" of increased pollination may be a great comfort > to > all of us. > I also wonder where the New Scientist got the 20% yield increase. It is not > mentioned in the patent. > wytze > P.S. I loved your new patent ideas! > > mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > > > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > > >patent WO9935913. > > The term > > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection > > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers > > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > > > >-enhanced crop safety; snip > > > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip > > > > I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think about > > their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? > > > > Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the > reduced > > mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the > > pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that > > relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other > > factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end users > > as higher food costs? > > > > Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large > > corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and defunded > > Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only > > keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even > > challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal > battle > > with a large corporation. > > > > On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this > > patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, > > > > I patent how people can use your products including the use of your > > pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. > > > > I now control how your customers can use your products through the license > > they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your > products. > > > > So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your customers > > will I take in license fees? " > > > > I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its own > > avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" with > > apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 19:12:36 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10032 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17214 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:48:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17210 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.124] (helo=[199.175.106.128]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 11zq3b-0004BG-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:48:15 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:52:20 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: age and cancer Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 739 Hugh Lovel is on track and Dale has succumbed to an "urban legend" claiming increased life expectancy. Dale is a scientist and can be expected to use and be used by mathematical statistics. Are we living longer than out ancestors who started coming to North America 500 years ago? Never mind the statistics just look around you. Are there people walking the shopping malls who are more than 100 years old? The fact is when individuals pass the biblical "three score and ten" they are old and within 20 years they will nearly all be read. The same was true among the people in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the1630's. A couple of dramatic things have occurred. As cities grew during the 18th and 19th centuries it became very dangerous to be a child. For instance, during the last half of the 19th century Montreal became the most dangerous place to be born, 3 of 5 children born died before they were 5 years old, most before they finished their first year. You don't have to be much of a mathematician to figure out what that does to the "average" statistical life expectancy. The second thing that skewed the figures was that many child-bearing women succumbed before middle age, some exhausted by annual births, some because of the nale doctors dirty hands. The fact is that human lifespan has changed little since humans were invented. I can fully understand why Dale would like to believe the cause of the rapidly increasing rate of cancers is due to all of us living longer. After all it would require a major change in his assessment of our economic/social reality to consider that the "Green Revolution" has been an ecological and health disaster. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 19:39:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10175 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28247 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:14:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28232 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 11zqSW-0001C9-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 01:13:52 +0100 Message-ID: <385D7A4C.A0ED9473@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 01:37:32 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" , benbrook@hillnet.com Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI References: <199912191948.LAA02594@enaila.nidlink.com> <385D7607.E218C1AD@zap.a2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 740 I think you are right, this is a quite unbelievable patent and a highly interesting one. It helps exlain some of the claims concerning GE crops in the last few months and it shows many other things, the effectiveness of transgenic plants being not the least important of them. I also hope some more people have the time to look at it. If I have the time I will look further into Table A and B and the affected insects, nematodes viruses etc. This patent in my opinion is definitely strong fuel on the debate against GE crops. At least to me this is the final blow to transgenic crops: OUT OF THE FIELDS, RIGHT NOW, PLEASE! wytze Charles Benbrook wrote: > > The claims in this patent strike me as almost unbelievable; at a minimum, > > they are incredibly broad. I can imagine some such impacts-correlations > > between use of a pesticide and a transgenic corn variety, but to present > > them as a novel patentable discovery is to, in effect, lay claim to many > > basic physiological processes in plants. Thanks to Wytze for digging > > deeper into this, soon I hope to spend some time reading the patents, and > > may have some observations to share. I hope others will do so as well, for > > I see this patent as fundamentally important and new. The scientific and > > grower communities need to understand exactly what is at stake if this > > patent, and others like it, are granted and what the commercial and > > economic consequences might be. > > > > chuck > > > > At 03:21 PM 12/19/99 +0100, wytze wrote: > > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > > >patent WO9935913. > > > > > >"In particular, it has been found, surprisingly, that within the scope > > >of invention the pesticidal activity of a nitroimino- or > > >nitroguanidino-compound in combination with the effect expressed by the > > >transgenic useful plant, is not only additive in comparison with the > > >pesticidal activities of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino- compound > > >alone and of the transgenic useful plant alone, as can generally be > > >expected, but that a synergistic effect is present. The term > > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection > > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers > > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > >-extension of the pesticidal spectrum of action to other pests, for > > >example to resistant strains; > > >-reduction in the application rate of the nitroimino- or > > >nitroguanidino-compound, or sufficient control of the pests with the aid > > >of the compositions according to the invention even at an application > > >rate of the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound alone and the > > >transgenic useful plant alone are entirely ineffective; > > >-enhanced crop safety; > > >-improved quality of produce such as higher content of nutrient or oil, > > >better fiber quality, enhanced shelf life, reduced content of toxic > > >products such as mycotoxins, reduced content of residues or unfavorable > > >constituents of any kind or better digestability; > > >-improved tolerance to unfavorable temperatures, draughts or salt > > >content of water; > > >-enhanced assimilation rates such as nutrient uptake and photosynthesis; > > > > > >-favorable crop properties such as altered leaf aerea, reduced > > >vegetative growth, increased yields, favorable seedshape/seedthickness > > >or germinisation properties, altered colonialisation by saprophytes or > > >epiphytes, reduction of senescence, improved phytoalexin production, > > >improved or accelerated ripening, flower set increase, reduced boll fall > > >and shattering, better attraction to beneficials and predators, > > >increased pollination, reduced attraction to birds; or other advantages > > >known to those skilled in the art" > > > > > >I will check some of the details of the patent again, especially the > > >part that mentions a reduction rate of 40-50%! > > >Wytze > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > > > Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com > > Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net > > 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net > > Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 > > 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 19 21:31:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11276 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA18042 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:08:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18038 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-67ppp124.epix.net [199.224.67.124]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id VAA10176 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:08:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385D9149.8AF92B46@epix.net> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:15:37 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: natural pesticide Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 I got this info the other day and was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. ----- Direction of 3.5% Bitterbarkomycin emulsion NATURAL PESTICIDE 1.Fuction The production is a high-effective, low-poisonous, little-remained, no public pollution new botanical agricultural pesticide. Its active element is sesquiterpene polyester, the chemical ingredient which is powerful in killing insects and has the functions of anesthesia, making insects refusing to eat, stomach poisoning and contact-killing, without becoming drug-fast and damaging natural enemy but with stable physical and chemical performance. The using of pesticide would lead non-polluted crop, vegetables, gourds and fruits, and also can increase yield by 10%--20%. In Nov.29, 1993, the product passed the examination and determination of the province and was appraised that the product has filled a national gap and is in the lead internationally in the field of insect-killing active element research, and now the product has been listed one of the "National Natural Science Fund Prize Project" and was rewarded the golden prize of "Henan Provincial 7th Invention Exhibition Fair" in May 1994. The product has gained national patent in 1995, and was entered in "National Torch Plan" in 1996. 2.Object The product is suitable to prevent and control prick-suck and chewing type mouth parts injurious insects, mainly to prevent and cure those injurious insects inside all kinds of crops such as wheat, flower and grass, vegetable, cotton, tea, golf ground, horse ground, lawn and others. The product's prevention and cure effect hit 95% of wheat aphid, cabbage caterpillar, diamondback moth, flower aphid and callosobruchus chinches, the inhibition rate to the incubation of pink boll worm hit 86%. The protection rate to cotton buds and bolls hits over 84%. The General Station of Plant Protection under Agriculture Department of Guangdong Province recommended in July 1996 this Product to all plant protect system of this province, considering 3.5% Bitterbarkomycin emulsion as a new type of pesticide for prevention and cure of stain-hid fly in America. The test made in Europe and America by our foreign clients proved that the prevention and cure effect of this product hit over 95% for the following injurious insects such as: cotton leaf-worm, black bean aphid, two spotted spider mite, tobacco budworm, cotton pink boll-worm, vetch aphid, green rice leafhopper, greenhouse whitefly, apple roller, stainhid fly in America. The product does not produce chemical harm when spraying at the density of 100% killing insects efficiency, therefore, it is an ideal agricultural pesticide for green-food, export vegetables, and fruits. Our clients are helping us to register our pesticide in HK, UK. If you are interested in our pesticide, we'll be very pleased to supply our sample for you to test. We are sure you will find a ready sale for the natural material and that your customers will be well satisfied with it. --- Thanks! Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 08:24:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15422 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06513 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:10:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA06506 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 05:56:43 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:05:39 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sgroff@epix.net Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, mmiller@pcsia.com, waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 742 Hey Steve, I do not want to be absolutist about this but I am convinced that this is what will come down over the next decade. The "new technology" in this country will be the low risk pesticides and they will essentially obliterate the ill founded and false organic purity claim. So that emperor will have no clothes and all us old timers who kept trying to convince the nitpickers that soil culture had to be kept as the core of the organic principles will have finished weeping and will be able to have a good laugh... Looking forward to the third millennium! Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 08:53:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15735 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA18368 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:39:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18336 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-34.csj.net [12.29.22.34]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15786; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:39:02 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: "'wytze'" Cc: Subject: patent pending? Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:35:26 -0600 Message-ID: <000601bf4aef$145c5da0$60fefea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <385D4445.DDDB1B06@zap.a2000.nl> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 743 Since I have completed the process twice, I am more confused. How did you get a copy of it ? Does it have a patent number? If it does it has been issued-the final step-but I did a patent search and it is not there. Confidentiality of patent contents is prudent until issuance, so I am wondering why they published it. If they were announcing a patent pending application they should have been very general, not publishing the specific application. Something is funny here. The patent process is not open to official public debate, unfortunately. It isn't even open to congressional influence to expedite the patent. I tried since I couldn't license it without the actual patent number. However, part of my struggle with the autoimmune patent came from the USPTO efforts (according to the patent attorney) to stem the tide of transgenic and plant patents. A media ruckus couldn't hurt focus attention on the situation indirectly. Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com -----Original Message----- From: wytze [mailto:geno@zap.a2000.nl] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:47 PM To: gcr@rhealiving.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI As far as I understand it is not yet approved. It is an application and I hope to find out if comments to the patent offices are possible. In the mean time, the fun of this patent is that it reveals a huge amount of things so thank you Novartis for this information. Wytze Donna Fezler wrote: > It was filed on January 15, 1999 and it has been approved already? > Supposedly the USPTO is above corruption, but it usually takes at least 18 > months for the first review. 95 % of patents are rejected at the first > review. It takes about 6 months from approval to issuance, so this patent > was reviewed and approved within 5 months of application. HMMM. > > Donna Fezler > GCR > Jacksonville, IL > > http://www.rhealiving.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On > Behalf Of wytze > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:27 PM > To: mmiller@pcsia.com > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI > > I wonder if this mycotoxin story did not come up as a result of the patent, > given > the fact that the patent was filed 14 january 1999. > Furthermore, the "advantage" of increased pollination may be a great comfort > to > all of us. > I also wonder where the New Scientist got the 20% yield increase. It is not > mentioned in the patent. > wytze > P.S. I loved your new patent ideas! > > mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > > > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > > >patent WO9935913. > > The term > > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this connection > > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also refers > > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > > > >-enhanced crop safety; snip > > > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip > > > > I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think about > > their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? > > > > Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the > reduced > > mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the > > pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that > > relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other > > factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end users > > as higher food costs? > > > > Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large > > corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and defunded > > Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only > > keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even > > challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal > battle > > with a large corporation. > > > > On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this > > patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, > > > > I patent how people can use your products including the use of your > > pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. > > > > I now control how your customers can use your products through the license > > they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your > products. > > > > So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your customers > > will I take in license fees? " > > > > I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its own > > avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" with > > apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 09:05:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16294 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20812 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from envsci.rutgers.edu (envsci.rutgers.edu [165.230.5.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20775 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:52:21 -0500 (EST) From: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Received: from the-network-asy-29.rutgers.edu (the-network-asy-29.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.29]) by envsci.rutgers.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19814; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:45:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: envsci.rutgers.edu: the-network-asy-29.rutgers.edu [128.6.248.29] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <385E5D2A.6FF5@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:45:30 -0800 Reply-To: loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Organization: Individual X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Rogers CC: sanet Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 744 Yeah, keep killing that straw man! I think he's almost history! I am convinced that lots of people can't tell a valid from an invalid argument anyway. Only nit-pickers care about that logic stuff. LM ----------------------------- Ted Rogers wrote: > I do not want to be absolutist about this but I am convinced that this is > what will come down over the next decade. The "new technology" in > this country will be the low risk pesticides and they will essentially > obliterate the ill founded and false organic purity claim. So that emperor > will have no clothes and all us old timers who kept trying to convince the > nitpickers that soil culture had to be kept as the core of the organic > principles will have finished weeping and will be able to have a good > laugh... > > Looking forward to the third millennium! > > Best, > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 09:08:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16335 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20321 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:51:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20279 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 1203Cg-0000oJ-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:50:22 +0100 Message-ID: <385E398E.3FE7D095@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:13:34 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Rogers CC: sgroff@epix.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, mmiller@pcsia.com, waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Rotenone Hazards? -Reply -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 745 Mr. Rogers, I am no expert on all different chemical substances but am I to understand that for example a plant resistant to Aryloxyphenoxyalkanecarbolyxic acids, sprayed with a formula comprising let's say 0,5% thiamethoxam, 20% organophosphorous compounds, 25% carbamates, some fenoxycarb, fipronil and diafenthurion is to be considered a "low risk pesticide" plant? Is this the Opportunity organic farmers are avoiding? I wonder why that would be! Sincerely, Wytze de Lange Ted Rogers wrote: > Hey Steve, > > I do not want to be absolutist about this but I am convinced that this is > what will come down over the next decade. The "new technology" in > this country will be the low risk pesticides and they will essentially > obliterate the ill founded and false organic purity claim. So that emperor > will have no clothes and all us old timers who kept trying to convince the > nitpickers that soil culture had to be kept as the core of the organic > principles will have finished weeping and will be able to have a good > laugh... > > Looking forward to the third millennium! > > Best, > > Ted > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 09:47:04 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16830 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03660 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:31:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03616 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub2.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:30:36 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub2.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:30:09 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:30:08 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0098@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: Ted Rogers Cc: sanet , "'loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU'" Subject: Rational argument (was: Rotenone Hazards) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:30:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 746 Ted, You wrote: >> The "new technology" in this country will be the low risk >> pesticides and they will essentially obliterate the ill >> founded and false organic purity claim. LM wrote: > Yeah, keep killing that straw man! I think he's almost history! > I am convinced that lots of people can't tell a valid from an > invalid argument anyway. Only nit-pickers care about that > logic stuff. I disagree with LM's contention that your argument is a straw-man, and I believe you are right. Food safety concerns are driving the ag chemical industry toward safe, well-targeted pesticides. Many are clearly safer than classic natural products like rotenone. But I do think he has a point about how much regard organic adherents have for rational arguments. I don't believe that the driver in this movement is really safety, but a desire to cohere to natural law. The food safety issue is more of a tool to incite to action the masses, who don't care that much about natural law (or just incite them to buy organic). Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 09:47:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16842 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02884 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:26:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02817 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 1203lc-00035k-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:26:28 +0100 Message-ID: <385E41F8.DDA9C6F8@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:49:29 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gcr@rhealiving.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: patent pending? References: <000601bf4aef$145c5da0$60fefea9@donna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 747 The patent can be seen at http://ep.espacenet.com/ When you get to the website, fill in WO9935913 at the field "view an apllication". You do need Acrobat Reader. I just called the EPO to check the question of publication. Patents are being published during the approval process. It is possible to object to a patent when it it is granted but it is also posible to send in comments during the reviewperiod. You may send comments to epoline@epo.org. In the comments please be sure to mention the patentnumber WO9935913 and WO9935910. It may be a good idea to also mention the french application number which is FR2773672. Comments will be added to the file. At least, that's what the friendly EPO lady told me. wytze Donna Fezler wrote: > Since I have completed the process twice, I am more confused. How did you > get a copy of it ? Does it have a patent number? If it does it has been > issued-the final step-but I did a patent search and it is not there. > Confidentiality of patent contents is prudent until issuance, so I am > wondering why they published it. If they were announcing a patent pending > application they should have been very general, not publishing the specific > application. Something is funny here. > > The patent process is not open to official public debate, unfortunately. It > isn't even open to congressional influence to expedite the patent. I tried > since I couldn't license it without the actual patent number. However, part > of my struggle with the autoimmune patent came from the USPTO efforts > (according to the patent attorney) to stem the tide of transgenic and plant > patents. A media ruckus couldn't hurt focus attention on the situation > indirectly. > > Donna Fezler > GCR > Jacksonville, IL > > http://www.rhealiving.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: wytze [mailto:geno@zap.a2000.nl] > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:47 PM > To: gcr@rhealiving.com > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI > > As far as I understand it is not yet approved. It is an application and I > hope > to find out if comments to the patent offices are possible. > In the mean time, the fun of this patent is that it reveals a huge amount of > things so thank you Novartis for this information. > Wytze > > Donna Fezler wrote: > > > It was filed on January 15, 1999 and it has been approved already? > > Supposedly the USPTO is above corruption, but it usually takes at least 18 > > months for the first review. 95 % of patents are rejected at the first > > review. It takes about 6 months from approval to issuance, so this patent > > was reviewed and approved within 5 months of application. HMMM. > > > > Donna Fezler > > GCR > > Jacksonville, IL > > > > http://www.rhealiving.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On > > Behalf Of wytze > > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:27 PM > > To: mmiller@pcsia.com > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI > > > > I wonder if this mycotoxin story did not come up as a result of the > patent, > > given > > the fact that the patent was filed 14 january 1999. > > Furthermore, the "advantage" of increased pollination may be a great > comfort > > to > > all of us. > > I also wonder where the New Scientist got the 20% yield increase. It is > not > > mentioned in the patent. > > wytze > > P.S. I loved your new patent ideas! > > > > mmiller@pcsia.com wrote: > > > > > >Synergistic effects and advantages of the "invention" as described in > > > >patent WO9935913. > > > The term > > > >"synergistic", however, is in no way to be understood in this > connection > > > >as being restricted to the pesticidal activity, but the term also > refers > > > >to other advantageous properties of the method according to the > > > >invention compared with the nitroimino- or nitroguanidino-compound and > > > >the transgenic useful plant alone. > > > >Examples of such advantageous properties which may be mentioned are: > > > > > > >-enhanced crop safety; snip > > > > reduced content of toxic products such as mycotoxins, snip > > > > > > I wonder what the people who published the mycotoxin discovery think > about > > > their idea being part of somebodyelse's patent? > > > > > > Also how much of the legal cost to determine what percentage of the > > reduced > > > mycotoxin benefit is attributable to the BT and what is due to the > > > pesticide synergy (and then there are those pesky changes in that > > > relationship as a function of soil type, weather conditions and other > > > factors like carrier insect populations) will be passed onto the end > users > > > as higher food costs? > > > > > > Or maybe as in another industry I was in, just the fact that a large > > > corporation has managed to get a patent from the new improved and > defunded > > > Patent Office that includes a prior art idea will be enough to not only > > > keep them from using the prior art idea but will keep them from even > > > challangeing the illegal patent due to lack of resources to do legal > > battle > > > with a large corporation. > > > > > > On the level of no moral constraints in the battle of corporations, this > > > patent is a Very Beautiful Strategy. Think of it, > > > > > > I patent how people can use your products including the use of your > > > pesticide on your herbicide and pesticide resistant crops. > > > > > > I now control how your customers can use your products through the > license > > > they are required to buy from me due to my patent on the use of your > > products. > > > > > > So the question becomes : "How much of your value stream to your > customers > > > will I take in license fees? " > > > > > > I love it. This system may very well collapse under the weight of its > own > > > avarice. "Plutocracy today, plutocracy tomorrow, plutocracy forever" > with > > > apologies to George Wallace. Mike Miller > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the > command > > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 10:20:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17216 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15575 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:02:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gold.wvnet.edu (gold.wvnet.edu [129.71.2.25]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15547 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (157.182.7.157:1061) by gold.wvnet.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.41DD6336@gold.wvnet.edu>; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:02:34 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991220091446.009da600@wvu.edu> X-Sender: jlozier@wvu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:58:49 -0500 To: Douglas Hinds , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: John Lozier Subject: Local communication and internet; was Re: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets In-Reply-To: <13818.991218@acnet.net> References: <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> <199912181931.LAA22210@enaila.nidlink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 748 Douglas and others, thanks for terrific discussions. At 07:38 PM 12/18/99 -0600, Douglas wrote, in answer maybe to Chuck: >The problem is cultural, and the culture is cultivated by the vested >interests. Correct, as far as it goes. But a whole lot of us have vested interests in local communities. >The Internet is a powerful tool capable of reverting that, >but this too is now being made bland by commercial interests. The capacity for grass-roots communication by internet is phenomenal, as SANET-MG demonstrates. > In short, I can't share your optimism. I'm optimistic, or maybe I am just hopeful. But what seems lacking to me is a way to transfer this terrific global conversation into our various local communities. Take Morgantown, WV for example. We have West Virginia University and lots of high-level thinkers all engaged in world-wide conversations about their special interests. But given our busy lives we rarely see and talk to each other. Internet isn't helping as much as it could in the local community. At the level of campus systems there is an "intranet" and increasing efforts to use email for traditional top-down communication, for posting announcements, and precious little discussion. There are a couple or three local listservs with special focus, created ostensibly for discussion. There is AGROECOL, our agroecology bag lunch list, of which I am the listowner, and to which I post occasional items from SANET-MG. There is WVUGLOBE, out of the office of international programs, to which I also post occasional items. There is a Greenspace Coalition that uses email to communicate, and I post ag-related items to them from time to time. (We are currently working on preservation of our WVU farmland from college-town development.) In these local forums, there is a hesitance to engage in very much substantive exchange of views. People tend to want to reply privately, they say they don't want to burden the lists, but the lists just don't have much traffic in ideas. Folks are maybe shy or timid, perhaps remembering the flame-warfare of a few years back. (Personally, I am very impressed with how cyberculture has evolved a standard of civility.) In the private sector, early on there was a website (sunspot.com) focused on Morgantown, but it went belly up. I've been heartened and hopeful for efforts such as smallfarms.com, which ultimately can only succeed if they hook up with real farmers and a viable local cybercommunity. What seems to be missing is this local cybercommunity. Colleagues and other fellow citizens, all busy in their specialties, don't take the time to communicate with neighbors across their specialties. This is what I think is needed. While I am thinking of it, I wonder about the widely bruited statistics on the growth of e-commerce. I wonder how much of that is going to the integrators (Amazon, etc.) and how much of the growth is going to small and more local e-commerce. If I were a gambler, my bet would be that small-e-commerce is growing faster than big-e-commerce, or if it isn't that it offers greater growth potential. It had better offer greater growth-potential, if local communities are to be preserved. Like I said, I am optimistic, or maybe just hopeful. Happy Holidays! John Lozier, harper for harmony To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 10:32:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17437 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24260 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:21:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24139 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub2.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:20:34 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub2.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:18:39 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:18:37 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A009A@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'Joel Brooks Gruver'" Cc: sanet Subject: RE: GMO labeling/MSD Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:18:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 749 Joel, > During the question and answer session following a symposium > in Boston about a month ago discussing the labeling of GMOs, > I proposed an alternative approach to GMO labeling that I > suggested might be more acceptible to industry yet of value > to future studies monitoring GM proliferation in the food > stream and epidemiological type studies of the impact of GMOs > on human health. The approach I suggested is to require that > "Materials Safety" style data sheets be publically accessible > for all food products with GM ingredients. These data sheets > would be accessible via the web... I heard this, or a similar idea at the American Seed Trade Association meetings a couple weeks ago. Use of some code with which consumers could access on-line information may be less threatening to the food industry because of the complexity of some of the information. It is not always clear what is or is not a GM ingredient, or what an appropriate threshold of content might be. The idea of putting all this complex information right on the label is scary. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 11:08:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18071 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29048 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:41:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29008 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (hlst216-37-159ppp72.epix.net [216.37.159.72]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id KAA15329 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:41:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385E4D6E.BCAE87EA@epix.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:38:22 -0500 From: "Winter, Leif and Barbara" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI References: <199912191949.OAA27213@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 750 Could someone explain the new patent in terms that don't turn my brain to mush? To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 11:12:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18125 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05386 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:56:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05290 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 1205AB-00016j-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:55:55 +0100 Message-ID: <385E571D.3E3097AB@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:19:42 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wilson, Dale" CC: Ted Rogers , sanet , "'loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU'" Subject: Re: Rational argument (was: Rotenone Hazards) References: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A0098@vela.phibred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 751 Mr. Dale, Thank you for your concern for foodsafety. Could you tell me what synergistic effects on foodsafety I may expect from the following example: A rice with combined insecticidal resistance (IR) and herbicide resistance(HR), using trypsin inhibitors for the IR and HR by Acetolactate synthetase. The rice was treated during the season with: N-acylsulfonamides and NC 330. To combat some other pests it was also sprayed several times with a Novartis spray, comprising of a nutraguanidino compound, Ti-435 and pymetrozine. Sincerely, Wytze de Lange Wilson, Dale wrote: > Ted, > > You wrote: > >> The "new technology" in this country will be the low risk > >> pesticides and they will essentially obliterate the ill > >> founded and false organic purity claim. > > LM wrote: > > Yeah, keep killing that straw man! I think he's almost history! > > I am convinced that lots of people can't tell a valid from an > > invalid argument anyway. Only nit-pickers care about that > > logic stuff. > > I disagree with LM's contention that your argument is a straw-man, and I > believe you are right. Food safety concerns are driving the ag chemical > industry toward safe, well-targeted pesticides. Many are clearly safer than > classic natural products like rotenone. But I do think he has a point about > how much regard organic adherents have for rational arguments. I don't > believe that the driver in this movement is really safety, but a desire to > cohere to natural law. The food safety issue is more of a tool to incite to > action the masses, who don't care that much about natural law (or just > incite them to buy organic). > > Dale > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 12:15:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19065 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24207 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:53:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24199 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.118]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:01:33 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:53:05 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Low-risk pesticides ... Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 752 I'm looking for an honest-to-goodness answer here, not philosphy ... What is the current developmental status for "photosynthesis precursor" herbicides? These are the ones that promise to overload a weed with its photosythetic precursors to the extent that it burns itself up when the sun rises, while leaving species not using that precursor (there are several photosynthetic pathways) untouched. I've been away from that area for a few years and have lost touch with the ongoing particulars. On a somewhat more philosphical but related note, can someone who understands the current 'logic' of the organic bureaucracy explain to me why organic agriculture prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist like T-22 (Trichoderma harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion techniques used to improve the strain is "genetic engineering," while they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative impact on earthworms? Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 12:17:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19167 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24791 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:56:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24765 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 120656-00051l-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:54:44 +0100 Message-ID: <385E64BE.85E189C4@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:17:50 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Herve LE MEUR CC: maroc@mail.islandnet.com, gentech@gen.free.de, lebzwin@epix.net, "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re:New Novartis patent VI References: <199912201504.QAA25381@lan43.LANORS.MATUPS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 Dear all, Apologies for any unclarities. Here are the Patent Claims that hopefully make things more clear. Patent claims: 1)Method of controlling pests in crops of transgenic useful plants, characterized in that a pesticidal composition comprising of a nitroimino or nitroguanidino-compound in free form or in agrochemically useful salt form as active ingredient and at least one auxiliary is applied to the pests or their environment. 2)Method according to claim 1, characterized in that thiamethoxam is emplyed. 3)Method according to claim 1, characterized in the imidacloprid is employed. 4)Method according to claim 1, characterized in that the transgenic plant is treated. 5)Method according to claim 1 to 4, characterized in that the transgenic crop of useful plants is maize. 6)Method according to claim 1 to 4, characterized in that the transgenic crop of useful plants is soybeans. 7)Method according to claim 4, characterized in that the propagation material of the transgenic useful plant is treated. What I did in most of the other messages was to provide further info that is present in the patent like: the list of "useful transgenic plants", the list of GE Herbicide Resistancies and the herbicides that can be applied to them, the list of Auxiliarysubstances that may be used in the composition etc. I hope this helps. wytze Herve LE MEUR wrote: > Hi, > > Me too, I cannot understand the "explanations" of wytze. I hope he'll send more > easy explanations. > > You write : > >had the patent laws in Europe been the same 500 years ago as > >they are now, Columbus and Isabella would have patented America. > > Let me remind you that patents have durations.17 years in USA and 17 in EC. > The reason is that legislators wanted to conceal "particular interest" > and general interest. > > So, had America been patented, 500 years ago, it would have fallen into public > domain. > > Moreover, a patent is not a property. It's a guarantee by a state (the > extent is limited to a country, though there are agreements betwween > countries) to have the unique right to use an invention. This exclusivity is > buyable. > > It is not a property beause it is limited in time (and surely other reasons). > > Yet I think your point is not irrelevant, becaus,e we are enteringin > a conception of society where we will have (more and more) to define new areas > where patenting will be applied, so as to fuel multinationals. > > After patenting technical inventions (long ago and I do not contest it), > we are allowing to patent living forms. > > What next when all the patents actually discussed will have fallen > into the public domain ?????? Companies won't tolerate to be fueled > with less power than what they will have been accustomed to ! > > HLM > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > The address for any administrative command like unsubscribe, > subscribe or help is: > > GENTECH-REQUEST@gen.free.de > > The searchable WWW list archive is available at > > http://www.gene.ch/archives.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 12:20:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19599 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24978 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:58:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (root@pasture.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.109.85]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24974 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecn.purdue.edu (abepc3.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.109.123]) by pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3moyman) with ESMTP id LAA10320 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:58:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385E602B.8499042D@ecn.purdue.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:58:20 -0500 From: Brent Ladd Organization: Purdue University Cooperative Extension Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: livestock worksheets Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6DD6E0CE421C5D1FEBB4DE83" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 754 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6DD6E0CE421C5D1FEBB4DE83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am planning to develop worksheets on Swine and Beef Cattle related specifically to water resource protection. These will become a part of our Farm*A*syst program in Indiana. Main items will be manure/nutrient management and grazing/stream management. Anyone with specific ideas on what should be included in these worksheets please send them to me. These will be Extension publications used in the field by farmers. Thank you for your input. Brent Ladd Farm*A*Syst/Home*A*Syst Coordinator --------------6DD6E0CE421C5D1FEBB4DE83 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="laddb.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Brent Ladd Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="laddb.vcf" begin:vcard n:Ladd;Brent tel;fax:765/496-1356 tel;work:765/496-6331 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/safewater/farmasyst/index.htm org:Purdue Cooperative Extension Service;Agricultural & Biological Engineering adr:;;1146 ABE Building;West Lafayette;IN;47907-1146; version:2.1 email;internet:laddb@ecn.purdue.edu title:Environmental Assessment Coordinator note:"When a man loses sight of his past he loses the ability to go forward intelligently."- Anonymous fn:Brent Ladd end:vcard --------------6DD6E0CE421C5D1FEBB4DE83-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 12:34:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19735 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02344 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:16:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (coopext.cahe.wsu.edu [134.121.1.21]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02266 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bob.cahe.wsu.edu (cahefr90042.cahe.wsu.edu [199.237.90.42]) by coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA04945; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:16:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Andy McGuire" To: "'Maroc'" , Subject: RE: age and cancer Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:15:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01bf4b0d$d42c6300$2a5aedc7@cahe.wsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 755 Don Maroc from Vancouver Island, Canada, wrote: I can fully understand why Dale would like to believe the cause of the rapidly increasing rate of cancers is due to all of us living longer. After all it would require a major change in his assessment of our economic/social reality to consider that the "Green Revolution" has been an ecological and health disaster. Maybe I am missing something, but the graphs at the site that Dale referred to (http://www.cancer.org/statistics/index.html, show that the only cancer that is rapidly increasing is lung cancer. Most of the other cancers have increased slightly, stayed level or decreased, and I expect that more misdiagnosis of cancer went on in the 30s and 40s than in the 80s and 90s. The statistics presented do not show a "health disaster," at least not one that is not caused by peoples personal choices, i.e. smoking. And these statistics are from an organization, that, if they were unscrupulous, I do not have any evidence that they are anything but truthful), might want to portray a more dire situation, to spur donations. Andy McGuire Andy McGuire Agricultural Systems Educator Washington State University Cooperative Extension Center for Sustaining Agriculture and Natural Resources PO Box 37, Courthouse Ephrata WA 98823 509-754-2011, Ext. 412 Fax: 509-754-0163 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 12:36:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19762 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02039 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:16:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01896 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.118]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:24:08 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:15:40 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Chlorpyrifos is being tested on humans Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 756 Sunday's Omaha World-Herald reports that a lab in Lincoln, Nebraska is being paid by Dow to test chlorpyrifos on human volunteers, who are being paid $460 each to swallow capsules containing either the pesticide (Lorsban / Dursban) or a placebo. http://omaha.com/Omaha/OWH/StoryViewer/1,3153,267806,00.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 13:25:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20550 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18488 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:01:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18456 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:47:30 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:56:39 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, bluestem@webserf.net Subject: Low-risk pesticides ... -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 757 Bart, Can you give me some of the compound names? If no one else comes up with anything definitive I think I can dig it up (some time early in the next millennium...) "'logic' of the organic bureaucracy" I think that you have created the ultimate oxymoron. That falls in the same general category of accepting the free living predatory nematodes on the damp sponge that have a shelf life of 15 minutes to a week depending on handling and rejecting the dry and stabilized culture that will last several months because the latter has a modest amount of an antimicrobial/preservative added...duh, makes sense to me Mr. Bart you must be one of them dirty fascists who want organic to make sense. If it made sense it would be too much like real agriculture instead of play time in the sand box. Best for the third millennium, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 13:46:06 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20857 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23345 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:27:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23314 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-97.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.97]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:27:00 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:24:08 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1516.991220@acnet.net> To: John Lozier CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Local communication and internet; was Re: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets In-reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991220091446.009da600@wvu.edu> References: <4.2.0.58.19991220091446.009da600@wvu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 Hi John, Monday, December 20, 1999, you wrote: JL> Douglas and others, thanks for terrific discussions. You bet. Glad you appreciated that. JL> Douglas wrote, in answer maybe to Chuck: Chuck and Joel were in there. >>The problem is cultural, and the culture is cultivated by the vested >>interests. JL> Correct, as far as it goes. But a whole lot of us have vested JL> interests in local communities. It goes farther. All interests count, although not all are equal. It depends on the rules of the game and the foundation each has, underlying the "rules of the game" which is not necessarily basic in the grandest sense of the word, are therefore subject to challenge - on both legal & moral grounds. >>The Internet is a powerful tool capable of reverting that, >>but this too is now being made bland by commercial interests. JL> The capacity for grass-roots communication by internet is JL> phenomenal, as SANET-MG demonstrates. True. But there is a lot more spam and garbage on it than ever, and this is a trend that will continue. As occurs with anything else that's "made it", you get a lot of scavengers getting into the act, as well as the crazies. I recently ran on to a cyber-terrorist group dedicated to disrupting serious, goal oriented focus groups (this goal is not overtly manifested however, but I found their website), because they don't believe in the value of words or "imposing" solutions (and came quite close to closing another forum dealing w/ sustainable development). SANET-MG hasn't demonstrated the cohesiveness and congruence that I would like, but it's a forum and the general direction is all right. Like anything else there are egos as well as issues involved. The potential is certainly there, but so are the human foibles. >> In short, I can't share your optimism. JL> I'm optimistic, or maybe I am just hopeful. The above of mine was written to Joel in relation to his basically good but never the less impractical suggestion in relation to labeling GMO foods. I see Dale has concurred with me, although he didn't refer to my post in his. JL> But what seems lacking to me is a way to transfer this terrific JL> global conversation into our various local communities. To put it into concrete practice. JL> Take Morgantown, WV for example. I couldn't, but you could. I'll listen. JL> We have West Virginia University and lots of high-level thinkers JL> all engaged in world-wide conversations about their special JL> interests. Sounds great. JL> But given our busy lives we rarely see and talk to each other. OK, I see you have included yourself in the group of "high-level thinkers". I'll buy that, let's see where this goes. JL> Internet isn't helping as much as it could in the local community. JL> At the level of campus systems there is an "intranet" and JL> increasing efforts to use email for traditional top-down JL> communication, for posting announcements, and precious little JL> discussion. Is is used among faculty and alumni for assignments etc? JL> There are a couple or three local listservs with special focus, JL> created ostensibly for discussion. There is AGROECOL, our JL> agroecology bag lunch list, of which I am the listowner, and to JL> which I post occasional items from SANET-MG. It's a similar or complementary focus group then. JL> There is WVUGLOBE, out of the office of international programs, to JL> which I also post occasional items. I will look into that, to see what issues they deal with and how. Unfortunately, neither yahoo nor altavista nor northernlight show results for "wvuglobe". http://www.wvu.edu/wvuglobe doesn't do it either. So anyone interested would have to dig out info on it from the wvu site. Strangely enough, http://www.wvu.edu/ will not resolve text or images on my Opera browser. At random I clicked on a blank white space and got http://www.wvu.edu/~exten/ which should do the job. Meanwhile, this goes out. JL> There is a Greenspace Coalition that uses email to communicate, JL> and I post ag-related items to them from time to time. I hope GC is actively opposing GMOs in the field and in the market. The main things that need to be done are: 1).- Buy non GMO seed and make the rejection of GMO seed known to seed companies and vendors. 2).- Make sure the crops sold are identified as non- GMO. 3).- Buy no GMO foods, and pressure the markets to carry only non GMO foods and have them clearly labeled as such, 4).- Insist on the obligatory labeling of GMO foods. 5).- Fight for long term studies being done before releasing further GMO seed and recalling those already released. And 6).- Educate the public through all media possible, including the scheduling of interviews and conferences (not costly and effective). There are probably more. JL> (We are currently working on preservation of our WVU farmland from JL> college-town development.) You need to control the planning department and/or it's policies or regulations, of the city or county govts., either directly (by running for public office or lobbying them) or indirectly, by mobilizing public opinion. JL> In these local forums, there is a hesitance to engage in very much JL> substantive exchange of views. People tend to want to reply JL> privately, they say they don't want to burden the lists, but the JL> lists just don't have much traffic in ideas. Folks are maybe shy JL> or timid, perhaps remembering the flame-warfare of a few years JL> back. (Personally, I am very impressed with how cyberculture has JL> evolved a standard of civility.) I have had more than a bit of personal interchange off list w/ other sanet members, some of it very positive and lasting, a very little of it very negative and quite a bit in between. The civility is fine, but this may conflict to a degree with the passion or commitment required to get needed changes implemented, and not all share the same goals or have the same needs; so there is much more left to be done (which is no problem - the door is open). Concrete goals and programs are needed. In any case, I see the net as a place to make announcements (perhaps attracting a few responses) and report results. It's a cheap and fast individual and conference medium, and while the possibilities are there, it's only worth the use and content we give to it. JL> In the private sector, early on there was a website (sunspot.com) JL> focused on Morgantown, but it went belly up. I've been heartened JL> and hopeful for efforts such as smallfarms.com, which ultimately JL> can only succeed if they hook up with real farmers and a viable JL> local cybercommunity. I've had some interchange with the owner and consider what he's doing a good idea that is also limited by the way the industry works today, as well as what it needs. JL> What seems to be missing is this local cybercommunity. Colleagues and JL> other fellow citizens, all busy in their specialties, don't take the time JL> to communicate with neighbors across their specialties. This is what I JL> think is needed. I would say that the above is true if given a specific focus in specific projects. I don't mean to be insulting but as an academic, there is nothing wrong with taking an academic point of view that not all of us can afford. JL> While I am thinking of it, I wonder about the widely bruited JL> statistics on the growth of e-commerce. I wonder how much of that JL> is going to the integrators (Amazon, etc.) and how much of the JL> growth is going to small and more local e-commerce. If I were a JL> gambler, my bet would be that small-e-commerce is growing faster JL> than big-e-commerce, or if it isn't that it offers greater growth JL> potential. That may be true, I couldn't say. Small may be beautiful but when you're dealing with international issues (I assume you're aware that I am writing this from Southeast Mexico) there are economies of scale that can't be ignored, for practical reasons. Therefore, small and local is not the framework I myself am looking at. We too (CeDeCoR) must integrate the small guys so they can get a better deal, give that we are an org and not a com (in cyberterms). JL> It had better offer greater growth-potential, if local communities JL> are to be preserved. It's all a matter of how it's set up and who does it. JL> Like I said, I am optimistic, or maybe just hopeful. No, you are looking into the future and congratulations; don't stop now. (Nicer than saying "as far as it goes"). JL> Happy Holidays! Y Felice Navidad y Año (Siglo) Nuevo! JL> John Lozier, harper for harmony Douglas Hinds Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico Mail: Apdo. Postal No. 171 Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz 94471 Mexico Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present) U.S. Voicemail (email linked) 630 300 0550 U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555 dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx, dhinds@prodigy.net.mx *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 14:14:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21680 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05155 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:58:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailserv.ciwmb.ca.gov ([156.41.30.32]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05131 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by MAILSERV with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:51:26 -0800 Message-ID: <36FDE5F58290D111A15E00A0C9983409036A2FC9@MAILSERV> From: "Storelli, Stephen" To: "'sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: State of California Request for Proposals Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:51:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 759 California Integrated Waste Management Board Approves $250,000 for Compost & Mulch Field Demonstration Projects The California Integrated Waste Management Board (Board) has recently approved the release of a Request for Proposals (RFP) to solicit projects that will demonstrate the beneficial end-uses of municipal compost and mulch. The Board anticipates making several awards with no individual project funded in excess of $80,000. Awards will be offered to the highest scored proposal with subsequent awards being given to the second highest and so on depending on availability of remaining funds. Acceptable proposals will illustrate the benefits of using compost and mulch and must meet the following criteria: * Projects must be located in California. * Proposals will only be accepted from public institutions. Public institutions in this context are defined as universities, state agencies, local governments, and other associated organizations and special districts including Resource Conservation Districts. Public institutions however are encouraged to partner with end-users of compost and mulch and other private entities while acting as project leads. Acceptable proposals are encouraged to explore innovative uses of compost and mulch by end-users for such applications as revegetation, environmental restoration, bioremediation, wetlands restoration, erosion control, integrated pest management, and other agricultural and non-agricultural applications. Application packets for this solicitation will be available December 27th 1999 and can be requested via fax at (916) 255-1107. Proposals are due Feb. 24th 2000. Award of contracts will be announced in April. For more detailed information on this solicitation, please visit the Board website at http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Organics/Grants/FY199900/default.htm To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 15:22:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23124 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28227 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:56:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28217 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 1208uX-0001Cf-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:56:01 +0100 Message-ID: <385E8F37.4B900D97@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:19:03 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" , Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com Subject: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 Dear all, The Novartis patent wo9935913 is "temporarily unaivalabe". I do not know if it is a systemmistake. It looks different. Maybe Novartis wants to rewrite certain parts of it, like correcting the "typos" of the effectiveness figures. Too bad, I would have liked to look closer at the range of insects and nematodes affected by the "invention". wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 16:06:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23652 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12498 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:51:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ntscspdcexch1.caldwellspartin ([208.24.177.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12467 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by NTSCSPDCEXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:51:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Walker Bennett To: "Wilson, Dale" , "'Roberto Verzola'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: GM-free organic fusion (was: GMO labeling) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:51:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 The problem is pricisely what happened to the word 'Organic'. With Big Business and Bigger Government butting in, it will become regulated to death and usage of the phrase 'GMO Free' will be prohibited by law unless you have forked over thousands to the beaurocracy! Walker Bennett e-mail: Work Home Both ___________________________________________________________ Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -- Robert A. Heinlein ___________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Wilson, Dale [mailto:WILSONDO@phibred.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:57 AM To: 'Roberto Verzola' Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: GM-free organic fusion (was: GMO labeling) . . . . . . . In fact, this all represents a big opportunity for you "organic" folks. You can whip up a bigger market and achieve a better economy of scale. GE-free foods SHOULD be in the same boat as "organics". They should be one component of "organic" foods. Why fight it? Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 16:38:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24076 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19929 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:01:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ntscspdcexch1.caldwellspartin ([208.24.177.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19831 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by NTSCSPDCEXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:00:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Walker Bennett To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com, sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: GMO labeling Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:00:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 762 Using the analogy of the American Bald Eagle, it is the predator at the top of its food chain that will suffer the most from a concentration of toxin all the way up the chain. We used DDT as a cure-all after WWII, spraying fields, cities, ponds, everything that didn't move faster than us. The plants became contaminated which ran-off into the watershed to poison the fish which were eaten by the eagles...they began to die off and were unable to reproduce. Under the assumption that we (humans) are at the top of the food chain (unless you consider that cockaroaches have been around longer), whatever we do up and down our food chain WILL eventually come back at us! Walker Bennett e-mail: Work Home Both ___________________________________________________________ Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -- Robert A. Heinlein ___________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Alex McGregor [mailto:waldenfarm@sprintmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:08 PM To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: GMO labeling . . . We are at the beginning of our introduction of GMOs into the food "pipeline." It would be much easier now to set up a system for separation now than years down the road. Let the companies who say that GMOs will rescue the world from hunger, obviate the use of chemicals and make all farmers rich lay out the money for the infrastructure. . . Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 16:49:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24258 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22764 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:14:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22746 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.254.241.175] (term5-47.vta.west.net [205.254.241.175]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 86C0424BD6 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:10:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: The Politics of Cancer Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:10:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 763 The Politics of Cancer In 1999, one in two American men and one in three American women will get cancer. In the 1950s, one in four Americans were afflicted with this deadly disease. Despite the expenditure of $25 billion since the war on cancer was declared by President Nixon in 1971, cancer rates have soared. Why? In a recently released book, Dr. Samuel Epstein reveals evidence implicating industrial carcinogens that permeate our environment - in our foods, our air, our water, our consumer products. And he blames the National Cancer Institute (NCI) and the American Cancer Society (ACS) - what he calls "the cancer establishment" - for ignoring these causes and instead spending billions on the elusive search for a magic bullet cure for cancer. Epstein maintains that with a comprehensive program of prevention, we can drive cancer rates back down to the relatively low rates of the 1950s. Every couple of months or so there is a major story in the national press about a breakthrough in cancer treatment. These breakthroughs rarely pan out and thus cruelly raise the hopes of cancer victims worldwide. These stories are hyped by mainstream journalists who have for the most part ignored Dr. Epstein's work - most recently in The Politics of Cancer Revisited (East Ridge Press, Fremont Center, New York, 1998. Copies can be ordered through Dr. Epstein's web site or from the publisher by calling 1-800-269-2921). This emphasis on a corporate cure fits well with the megacorporate agenda of externalizing toxics to increase profits, thus riddling the population with higher cancer rates and needless suffering. As Dr. Epstein points out, from 1950 to 1998, the overall incidence of cancer rose about 60 percent, with much higher increases for cancer of some organs. For non-Hodgkins lymphoma and multiple myeloma, the increase has been 200 percent. Breast cancers have increased by 60 percent. Prostate cancer has increased 200 percent. For testicular cancer in men of the ages 28 to 35, there has been a 300 percent increase since 1950. And don't let anybody fool you into thinking that the cancer rate increase is because the population is getting older - these rates are age-adjusted. The cancer rates of a group of 50 year old men in 1990, for example, are compared to the cancer rates of a group of men in 1950. So, why is the cancer establishment losing the war against cancer? "The cancer establishment is fixated on damage control - diagnosis, treatment and basic genetic research - and is indifferent, if not sometimes hostile, to cancer prevention - getting carcinogens out of the environment," Epstein told us recently. "The second factor is conflicts of interests, which are significant when it comes to the National Cancer Institute, but profound and overwhelming when it comes to the American Cancer Society. In the book, I go into great detail on conflicts between the American Cancer Society and the cancer drug industry, the mammography industry, the pesticide industry, and other such industries." According to Epstein, the outgoing director of the National Cancer Institute left that organization to go to the cancer drug industry. Another NCI director in the 1970s left NCI to go to the American Cancer Society and from there to head up the fiberglass industry (fiberglass is a recognized carcinogen). Epstein charges that the cancer establishment is misleading people into believing that it is spending a good chunk of its stashed away billions on prevention - which is untrue. For example, Epstein says that the budget for occupational cancer is under 1 percent of the total NCI budget ($2.8 billion in 1998). Yet occupational cancers comprise at least 10 percent of all cancers in the country, he says, and are among the most preventable of all cancers. So, if Epstein were the general in charge, what would he do to win the war on cancer? In 1992, Epstein and 64 other experts in public health, preventive health and carcinogenesis called on the cancer establishment to clearly recognize and publicly state that cancer is largely avoidable and to increase its present minuscule appropriations for cancer prevention so that they achieve parity with diagnosis, treatment and basic research over a period of a few years. Then, they suggested, the cancer establishment must conduct detailed studies of the wide range of avoidable and involuntary carcinogenic exposures - and Congress must act to get them out of the environment. For example, Representative Henry Waxman, D-California, has proposed that consumers be notified, through their water bills, of the carcinogens in their water and their concentrations. Such direct information to consumers on the carcinogenic assault on their bodies would justly create a political uproar. Epstein also supports legislation that would make it a crime for any corporation or corporate executive to knowingly introduce a new carcinogen into the environment. Looking for high crimes and misdemeanors? Read Dr. Epstein's book. Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Multinational Monitor. (c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Focus on the Corporation is a weekly column written by Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman. Please feel free to forward the column to friends or repost the column on other lists. If you would like to post the column on a web site or publish it in print format, we ask that you first contact us (russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org). To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 16:50:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24274 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22558 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:12:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22543 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:12:18 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.203]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:12:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991220151144.007d5170@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:11:44 -0600 To: Subject: Third Millenium YAK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 snip I think I can dig it up (some time early in the >next millennium...) snip >Best for the third millennium, http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html has more than you ever wanted to know about the third millennium. Mike Miller U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department The 21st Century and the 3rd Millennium - When Will They Begin? Years of the Gregorian calendar, which is currently in use today, are counted from AD 1. Thus, the 1st century comprised the years AD 1 through AD 100. The second century began with AD 101 and continued through AD 200. By extrapolation we find that the 20th century comprises the years AD 1901-2000. Therefore, the 21st century will begin with 1 January 2001 and continue through 31 December 2100. Similarly, the 1st millennium comprised the years AD 1-1000. The 2nd millennium comprises the years AD 1001-2000. The 3rd millennium will begin with AD 2001 and continue through AD 3000. Many initial epochs have been used for calendrical reckoning. Frequently, years were counted from the ascension of a ruler. For a calendrical epoch to be useful, however, it must be tied to a sequence of recorded historical events. This is illustrated by the adoption of the birth of Christ as the initial epoch of the Julian and Gregorian calendars. This epoch was established by the 6th century scholar Dionysius Exiguus who was compiling a table of dates of Easter. Dionysius followed previous precedent by extending an existing table (by Cyrillus) covering the period 228-247, reckoned from the beginning of the reign of Emperor Diocletian. However, he did not want his Easter table "to perpetuate the memory of an impious persecutor of the Church, but preferred to count and denote the years from the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ." To accomplish this he designated the years of his table Anni Domini Nostri Jesu Christi 532-550. Thus, Dionysius' Anno Domini 532 is equivalent to Anno Diocletiani 248, so that a correspondence was established between the new Christian Era and an existing system associated with historical records. What Dionysius did not do is establish an accurate date for the birth of Christ. While scholars generally believe that Christ was born a few years before AD 1, the records are too sketchy to allow a definitive dating. Given an initial epoch, one must consider how to record preceding dates. Today it is obvious that a year designated 1 would be preceded by year 0, which would be preceded by year -1, etc. But since the concept of negative numbers did not come into use in Europe until the 16th century, and was initially only of interest to mathematicians, its application to chronological problems was delayed for two more centuries. Instead, years were counted from a succession of initial epochs. Even as Dionysius' practice of dating from the Incarnation became common in ecclesiastical writings of the middle ages, traditional dating practices continued for civil purposes. In the 16th century Joseph Justus Scaliger tried to resolve the patchwork of historical eras by placing everything on a single system. Not being ready to deal with negative year counts, he sought an initial epoch in advance of any historical record. His approach was numerological and utilized three calendrical cycles: the 28-year solar cycle, the 19-year cycle of Golden Numbers, and the 15-year indiction cycle. The solar cycle is the period after which week days and calendar dates repeat in the Julian calendar. The cycle of Golden Numbers is the period after which moon phases repeat (approximately) on the same calendar dates. The indiction cycle was a Roman tax cycle of unknown origin. Therefore, Scaliger could characterize a year by the combination of numbers (S,G,I), where S runs from 1 through 28, G from 1 through 19, and I from 1 through 15. Scaliger first stated that a given combination would recur after 7980 (= 28 x 19 x 15) years. He called this a Julian cycle because it was based on the Julian calendar. Scaliger knew that the year of Christ's birth (as determined by Dionysius Exiguus) was characterized by the number 9 of the solar cycle, by Golden Number 1, and by number 3 of the indiction cycle, or (9,1,3). Then Scaliger chose as this initial epoch the year characterized by (1,1,1) and determined that (9,1,3) was year 4713 of his chronological era. Scaliger's initial epoch was later to be adopted as the initial epoch for the Julian Day numbers. We would say that Scaliger's initial epoch was 4713 BC or -4712. In the historical system of dating, AD 1 is preceded by 1 BC; there is no year 0. In the astronomical system, AD 1 is designated +1; this is preceded by year 0, which is preceded by year -1. The historical system was introduced in the 16th century. However, the astronomical system was not introduced until the 18th century. Other information on the start of the new millennium can be found on the web pages of the Royal Observatory Greenwich. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 17:12:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24636 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01698 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:40:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web605.mail.yahoo.com (web605.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.169]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01594 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3154 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 1999 21:40:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19991220214011.3153.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.82.102] by web605.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:40:11 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: Pesticide Testing on Humans,--FYI To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 765 Published Sunday December 19, 1999 Lincoln Lab Is Only One in U.S. to Test Pesticides on Humans BY JAKE THOMPSON COPYRIGHT 1999 OMAHA WORLD-HERALD CO. Washington - In the only known testing of its kind under way in the United States, MDS Harris Laboratory in Lincoln has been conducting pesticide research on humans. Researchers this year asked volunteers in Nebraska to swallow small doses of a pesticide to examine its potential harmful effects on people. The study was one of 14 submitted to the Environmental Protection Agency that involve people ingesting 10 different pesticides. The 13 other studies were on volunteers in the United Kingdom. Together, the studies are at the heart of a debate among scientists, ethicists and pesticide makers about the scientific value, the standards for and the moral justification of testing pesticides on humans. While some at the EPA, which regulates pesticides, see clear value in these human studies, which are legal, many do not, said John Carley, special assistant in the EPA's Office of Pesticide Programs. "There are many people at the agency who are troubled by the fact this testing has ever gone on and is going on, or might ever go on in the future," Carley said. The EPA recently established a panel to review human testing. For the MDS Harris research, some of the 60 volunteers swallowed a capsule containing chlorpyrifos, a pesticide widely used on crops as well as in schools, hospitals and 20 million homes to kill such pests as termites, ticks, cockroaches and fire ants. The pesticide is commonly marketed as Lorsban or Dursban. Some of the 60 volunteers were part of a control group and were given a placebo. The volunteers earned $460 for their participation. Carley said participants in Great Britain are paid twice as much. Earlier this year, the EPA concluded that chlorpyrifos poses high risks to millions of Americans because it can disrupt the nervous system. Supporters of the research said it is hoped that the tests will show how much of the pesticides can be ingested without any noticeable harm to people. Those supporters note that doses given to the volunteers fell well under a toxic dose. According to results from the MDS Harris study, volunteers who swallowed the pesticide capsules reported developing one incident each of nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, shortness of breath, impairment of sensation and chest pain. Those symptoms were possibly or probably related to ingesting the pesticide, according to the study. MDS Harris declined to discuss the study, referring questions to its client, Dow Chemical, the principal maker of chlorpyrifos. But Dr. Jim McClurg, MDS Harris' president of life sciences, said all of its studies follow international rules protecting participants and are reviewed by independent experts before and after the work. McClurg said the Lincoln-based company, founded in 1933, has clinics in a handful of cities worldwide and does a large amount of research on the clinical development of drugs. Garry Hamlin, a spokesman for Dow AgroSciences, said Dow sought the human research to add to the 3,600 previous research studies and reports on the pesticide. They involved lab studies, animal research and studies of people who apply the pesticide or routinely work in areas in which it is applied. Direct testing on human volunteers can help clear up uncertainty that exists between animal studies and the eventual impact on people, he said. The previous research guided the dosage levels in MDS Harris' study so that it "would not cause any harm to the volunteers," Hamlin said. Ken Cook, president of the Environmental Working Group, an activist organization in Washington that has tracked the human research trend, called the testing questionable. "Would you want your kid to participate in a study like this?" The American Crop Protection Association says that human tests are safe and that the compounds studied are widely found in small concentrations in the environment and the nation's food supply. For years, the EPA has neither required nor encouraged human tests. And while such tests flourished in the 1960s and 1970s, according to Carley, concerns about the ethics and safety led most companies to discontinue such tests. Then, in 1996, Congress passed the Food Quality Protection Act, which required stricter protections for children from pesticides. Attempting to show that their products are safe, large pesticide makers resumed testing their pesticides on people to aid in the government's risk assessment. The argument is this: Human studies are more accurate than animal studies and might establish a higher safe dose. In May 1998, the EPA published a federal notice that human tests might be helpful in assessing safety risks. When criticism of the notice surfaced, the EPA set up a special advisory panel to recommend a refined policy that considers the safety, ethics and conditions for human tests. The advisory panel held its second meeting Nov. 30. An EPA background paper for the meeting noted that the agency accepts other human tests, such as those studying people who apply pesticides on fields and for businesses. But the agency said that the 1996 law "may have unintentionally created an incentive" to test pesticides in human volunteers. "These studies raise difficult scientific and ethical questions we are not yet able to answer, and we are deeply concerned about them," the background paper states. The pesticide makers compare the pesticide studies to what are called Phase 1 clinical drug tests commonly submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. In those tests, the objective is to determine adverse reaction levels to a drug. Jeffrey Kahn, a bioethicist at the University of Minnesota and an EPA advisory panel member, said the pesticide tests are fundamentally different. The ultimate goal in drug tests is to make people healthy, he said, but the pesticide tests help determine at what levels of exposure people become sick. Further, the drug tests usually involve people who already are ill, while the pesticide tests seek healthy subjects. "I think there's a question of how much risk healthy individuals should bear when there's not a clear benefit to the person," Kahn said. "All of the risk is to the individual subjects, and all the benefits are to society or the companies producing these chemicals." Another issue before the advisory panel is whether human pesticide studies are statistically valid. Dr. Herbert Needleman of the University of Pittsburgh, who is a member of the advisory panel, said the sample size in the 14 studies sent to the EPA was too small. One examined seven subjects and another examined 50, he said. That cannot help establish what is called a no-effect level, a government standard below which there is no noticeable reaction. A study would need from 1,000 to 5,000 human participants to be statistically correct, Needleman said. Ray McAllister, senior director of scientific and regulatory policy for the Washington-based crop association, disagreed. He said that the studies are valid because they examine enzyme function, which varies in humans anyway. So finding a response in a small number of human pesticide testers could be translated to the population at large, he said. It's also important, McAllister said, that the testing subjects volunteer and are informed of the substance they are taking, the dosage and its risks. A copy of the informed-consent form was included in the study sent to the EPA. The seven-page form explains that the test involves chlorpyrifos, sketches its effects on the nervous system, outlines how the study will be conducted and warns that there are 15 potential adverse reactions, including headache, dizziness, abdominal cramps, tremors and tightness in the chest. It also has a pregnancy-related warning: "Although animal studies indicate little or no risk in humans, the possible side effects to a fetus or embryo are unknown." Of the volunteers in the MDS Harris study, 30 were men and 30 were women. Slightly more than one-third were 18 to 25 years old, the rest in their late 20s to early 50s. Most were nonsmokers. The volunteers were enlisted through ads in newspapers and on MDS Harris' Internet site, such as one ad that says, "EARN EXTRA MONEY. Make a Difference by Assisting in Medical Research. " Participants were given health screenings and drug and alcohol tests to determine medical history and fitness. They were told that the test material was a registered insecticide, according to the study. The volunteers were given capsules with either chlorpyrifos or the placebo. They were given pills three or four times a day. Their vital signs were tracked and urine and blood samples were collected by MDS Harris staff. The study used two phases and several groups to examine the effects of a rising dose of chlorpyrifos, documents show. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 17:14:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24702 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04456 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:43:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04388 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:43:27 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.153]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:43:27 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991220154246.007e1e80@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:42:46 -0600 To: Subject: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 766 Wytze, could you perchance call "the friendly EPO lady" again and ask her why the novartis patent is no longer available? I think I'm smelling a rat, a big multinational rat. Is there a way to request a paper copy? Does EPO stand for European Patent Office or is this a commercial site? I tried to download the patent yesterday to no avail. The search found the patent in the index but the link would not comeup on the screen. I now regret I did not try some other patent just to assure the system was working. I guess Novartis saw from their monitoring that the kim-chee was hitting the fan about this patent application. How better to stifle the debate than remove the information from ready acessibility to the rabble rousers? Verrrry Interesting. Mike Miller >Dear all, >The Novartis patent wo9935913 is "temporarily unaivalabe". I do not know >if it is a systemmistake. It looks different. Maybe Novartis wants to >rewrite certain parts of it, like correcting the "typos" of the >effectiveness figures. Too bad, I would have liked to look closer at the >range of insects and nematodes affected by the "invention". > >wytze > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 17:18:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24800 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03599 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:42:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from web606.mail.yahoo.com (web606.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.170]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03525 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14606 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 1999 21:42:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19991220214219.14605.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.82.102] by web606.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:42:19 PST Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:42:19 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Smith Subject: Today's WSJ--FYI To: Sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 767 Sorry if this is a redundant post. kate December 20, 1999 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pharmacia & Upjohn, Monsanto Boards Approve $27 Billion Merger of Equals By NIKHIL DEOGUN, ROBERT LANGRETH and THOMAS M. BURTON Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL The boards of Pharmacia & Upjohn Inc. and Monsanto Co. approved a $27 billion merger of equals designed to transform two midtier pharmaceutical businesses into a more formidable contender in the rapidly consolidating drug industry. In a significant move, the combined entity is planning, as soon as practical, an initial public offering of as much as 20% of Monsanto's large agricultural business, which has been rapidly built up through a slew of acquisitions but is under a cloud because of the uproar over genetically modified products. The agrochemical business, which has $4.3 billion in annual revenue, will have its own board and will be run out of Monsanto's headquarters in St. Louis. Monsanto Merger Is Just Latest of Bold Moves by Pharmacia CEO The move underscores the skepticism with which Wall Street has viewed Monsanto's heavy emphasis on agricultural biotechnology, such as genetically altered seeds. An all-stock merger of Pharmacia and Monsanto, which owns the valuable G.D. Searle pharmaceutical business, comes at a time of renewed emphasis on mergers in the drug industry, as exemplified by the takeover battle for Warner-Lambert Co. A combination of these two smaller players could create a rival in size comparable to companies such as American Home Products Corp. The combined firm is expected to have estimated 1999 sales of $17 billion and an annual research and development budget of more than $2 billion. The companies expect $600 million in annual cost savings by the third year. Under terms of the agreement, Pharmacia shareholders will receive 1.19 shares of the combined entity for each share of Pharmacia they now own; each Monsanto share will represent one share in the combined company. Since the deal is a merger of equals, neither company's shareholders will receive a takeover premium. Fred Hassan, Pharmacia's well-regarded chairman and chief executive, will be president and CEO of the combined entity, which will be run from Pharmacia's headquarters in Peapack, N.J. Robert B. Shapiro, Monsanto's 61-year-old chairman and CEO, will be nonexecutive chairman of the combined entity for a period of 18 months, when he will be succeeded by Mr. Hassan, 54. The board of the merged firm will be evenly split between the two companies, and Monsanto will own slightly more than 50% of the new entity, which has yet to be named. The tax-free transaction will be accounted for as a pooling of interests for accounting purposes. So long as the proceeds of the IPO of the agricultural business stay within the subsidiary, and as long as Monsanto owns more than 50% of the new company, the transaction shouldn't violate favorable accounting or tax policies. News of the merger talks between Monsanto and Pharmacia was reported in The Wall Street Journal on Friday, and investors seemed skeptical as to why Pharmacia shareholders would want to own part of an agricultural business. Taking that business public may allay some concern on Wall Street. At 4 p.m. Friday on the New York Stock Exchange, Pharmacia stock was down $2.625 to close at $50.375, while Monsanto had advanced $1.375 to $41.75. The merger is in part an attempt on the part of Monsanto's Searle drug division to achieve critical mass that will assist its research and development. Searle is prolific and has a rich pipeline, largely spurred by research conducted into the physiology of inflammation by Philip Needleman, Monsanto's chief scientist, who will hold the same post in the combined firm. The research by Dr. Needleman and his colleagues led to the blockbuster arthritis painkiller Celebrex. Celebrex's class of drugs, called COX-2 inhibitors, are also showing promise in treating various cancers. But Searle is already stretched to the limit financially on what it can accomplish in late-stage clinical trials. The drug division's profits, too, have been propping up Monsanto's agriculture biotechnology efforts. In the combination with Pharmacia, a new company would emerge that has drugs in numerous major therapeutic areas, such as arthritis, cardiovascular drugs, antibiotics and antiviral drugs, in the works. Write to Nikhil Deogun at nik.deogun@wsj.com, Robert Langreth at robert.langreth@wsj.com and Thomas M. Burton at tom.burton@wsj.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 18:15:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25825 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21172 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:49:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21121 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:49:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from lanfear.nidlink.com (root@lanfear.nidlink.com [216.18.128.7]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15521 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by lanfear.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA14638; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from benbrook (pm9-22.nidlink.com [216.18.141.77]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA29244; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:49:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912202249.OAA29244@enaila.nidlink.com> X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:53:17 -0800 To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, , From: Charles Benbrook Subject: Monsanto Merger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 768 I am sure everyone has heard the news that Monsanto and Pharmacia-Upjohn are going to merge. I have had several press calls re this already; people are wondering what this means for ag biotechnology and Monsanto's ag chemical and seed division. A few observations -- * Monsanto announced an earlier deal with American Home Products that subsequently fell apart; this deal may also not reach fruition, for a variety of reasons. * Media coverage obviously focuses on the pharmaceutical side of the merger, which is why it happened. Pharmacia-Upjohn has little or no interest in the ag division. * The merger does not to solve the problem of what Monsanto will do with its ag chemical and seed division, nor its debt load; the announcement that it will be spun off as a separate company, supported via a new IPO (Initial Public Offering) is a "placeholder" announcement. It is almost certainly not going to happen that way, but it is all Pharmacia-Upjohn and Monsanto can say at this point, since they have to complete their merger before they can talk about another deal. * The merger does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses of Monsanto's ag-chemical and seed division -- it can not generate sufficient income to service debt; it has far too narrow a product line to support a company of its size and service its debt; said another way, Roundup sales account for way too much of sales and profits and are not sustainable because Roundup is going off-patent and is soon to become a generic product with narrower profit margins; and, Monsanto lacks the product depth and marketing infrastructure to compete with mega-companies now forming (Aventis; Syngenta; Dupont-Pioneer). In all likelihood, Monsanto's ag chemical-seed division will eventually be bought by Bayer, BASF, Dow, or possibly Sumitomo or another Japanese company that decides to get into the agricultural inputs market in a big way. Another of these companies -- one that passes on Monsanto -- will probably merge with American Cyanamid (owned by American Home Products, and for sale). It is also possible that Monsanto's ag chemical and seed division will be broken into a couple of pieces. Also, do not be surprised if the Delta Pine merger collapses. Sale to another well established company is most likely because only through a merger with another major player in the market can a new company overcome some of the division's inherent problems -- too narrow a product line, lack of marketing infrastructure. In general, the longer the time for a deal to take shape, the greater the likely discount, since the markets are catching on to the structural problems plaguing Monsanto's ag chemical and seed division. As this next round of mergers/acquisitions/divestures unfolds, it will be important to watch out for the impact on competition in major pesticide markets as well as the relative emphasis placed on traditional pesticides, biopesticides and softer approaches, and transgenic solutions. More on these fronts later. chuck Charles Benbrook CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com Benbrook Consulting Services Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net 5085 Upper Pack River Road IPM site www.pmac.net Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 208-263-5236 (Voice) 208-263-7342 (Fax) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 18:15:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25837 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20306 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:45:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pa.mother.com (root@pa.mother.com [198.93.80.101]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20301 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.215.66.25] (25.66.static.mother.com [207.215.66.25]) by pa.mother.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA14239 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:45:12 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.6] by caff.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:47:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: caff@207.215.66.25 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:50:30 -0700 To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu From: CAFF Subject: Program Director Position Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 769 Community Alliance with Family Farmers Position Announcement PROGRAM DIRECTOR The Community Alliance with Family Farmers (CAFF) is working to build a movement of rural and urban communities to foster family-scale agriculture that cares for the land, sustains local economies and promotes social justice. CAFF's programs combine education and advocacy to promote biological farming, protect farmland and water resources and increase the economic viability of family farming. CAFF seeks a highly motivated individual with management experience to oversee current programs and develop dynamic new programs which fulfill CAFF's mission. This is a full-time position based in Davis. To Apply: Call 530-756-8518, ext. 10 or email caff@caff.org to request an information packet and application. This position is open until filled. Job Responsibilities: o Provide Program Leadership and Development. Provide leadership to CAFF's existing programs. Work with staff, board and others to develop new programs. o Participate on the Management Team. The Management Team serves as a forum for coordinating management and discussing organizational issues and concerns. The Program Director represents the needs and interests of the department on the team. o Supervise Program Implementation and Staff. Guide the development of an annual department workplan with goals and objectives that meet the organization's strategic goals. Serve as direct supervisor for lead program staff. Oversee and coordinate the work of program consultants and manage program contracts. Chair regular departmental check-in and strategy meetings. o Support Organizational Integration and Team Building. Chair program coordinators group, staff the Program and Planning Committee of the Board and participate in organizational committees and task forces as appropriate. o Serve as CAFF Representative and Spokesperson. Represent CAFF at conferences, meetings and events and on public advisory committees. Participate in coalition building activities. o Assist Fundraising Efforts. Assist development staff with donor prospecting, strategy development and proposal review. Facilitate program staff participation in development work. Qualifications: Minimum 3 years experience in supervision, organizational management and team-oriented leadership required. Excellent communication, project management and team building skills necessary. Knowledge of sustainable agriculture issues and commitment to grassroots change desired. Willingness to travel on a regular basis. Salary and Benefits: Starting salary range $34- 40,000. CAFF provides a benefits package that includes three weeks of paid vacation per year, personal leave, holidays, health insurance and flexible scheduling. CAFF is committed to recruiting, training, developing and promoting employees on the basis of individual qualifications, competence and merit. CAFF's policy is that all persons are entitled to equal employment opportunities regardless of race, color, religion, gender, marital status or sexual orientation. 12/20/99 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 18:41:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26402 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03484 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:23:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03476 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-243ppp117.epix.net [205.238.243.117]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id SAA05373; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:22:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385EBC11.461F4DAE@epix.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:30:25 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Minelle & Joe Paloff CC: sanet Subject: Re: natural pesticide References: <385D9149.8AF92B46@epix.net> <009c01bf4b00$08b005e0$486bf3cf@joepaloff> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 770 had serveral requests for info on this. here is the address for more info. I myself have never used it or know anything about it. Was wondering if anyone else did. ----- Mr. Zhonghai Ding Engineer LUOYANG HIGH & NEW TECHNOLOGICAL INDUSTRY DEVELOPMENT ZONE IMPORT & EXPORT CORPORATION F9. NO. 60. EASTERN KAIXUAN ROAD£¬LUOYANG£¬471000 CHINA TEL£º0086-379-3254604 / 86-13007634886 FAX£º0086-379-3254607 E-MAIL£º lyhn@public2.lyptt.ha.cn -- Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 19:06:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26936 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13643 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:42:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ars.usda.gov (ars.usda.gov [199.130.152.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA13639 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from NPA-Message_Server by ars.usda.gov with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:29:13 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:38:32 -0700 From: Ted Rogers To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Subject: Rational argument (was: Rotenone Hazards) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id SAA13640 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 771 Hey Dale You said: *I disagree with LM's contention that your argument is a straw-man, and I believe you are right. Food safety concerns are driving the ag chemical industry toward safe, well-targeted pesticides. Many are clearly safer than classic natural products like rotenone. But I do think he has a point about how much regard organic adherents have for rational arguments. I don't believe that the driver in this movement is really safety, but a desire to cohere to natural law. The food safety issue is more of a tool to incite to action the masses, who don't care that much about natural law (or just incite them to buy organic).* Interesting perspective and it illuminates some of the things I have been trying to express. Yes and in this country we will, I think, see many very good reduced risk pesticides with that narrow spectrum of effect. Don*t forget that these will be expensive and highly profitable for their registrants. I of course would like to see more work done on biological control agents but there is less likely high profit in that realm. I think that the both would be best for good bio-intensive IPM or best management practice agriculture but we take what we can get. I understand that a lot more public money goes into biological strategies in Europe. I am a little confused about what you are saying about organic, indeed the driver should not be food safety. The food safety issue was seized upon by novices and marketing people and has taken over the field, so to speak. I think that you give the organic market and community to much credit for formulating a strategy of any kind. I need to know what you think their concept of *natural law* is. Be careful getting into their minds is a dangerous exercise. My perspective as a student and practitioner of organiculture for thirty years is that the THEORY is that when the soil system(and projecting from the soil into the whole agroecosystem) is properly managed then the need for invasive pest management techniques (whether *approved* organic inputs and techniques or otherwise) is reduced over time to approach nil. All of us who have worked with this THEORY for a while have heaps of anecdotal *evidence* but data is rare. It (data) is not nonexistent there is just very little and the stuff is site specific, disjointed and in some instances very old (Bill Albrecht did a whole series of green house studies from the forties through the sixties growing insect infested plants side by side with healthy un-infested plants the only difference being the balancing of cations on the soil colloid) that it cannot stand scrutiny with out a lot more replicated and modern work. So it remains a THEORY, one that I tend to BELIEVE, but the *organic* scientific community has not yet done enough work for anyone to talk about many facts. I do not consider this THEORY to have anything to do with *natural law* it has to do with what are some basic biological facts such as the carbon and nitrogen cycles, some of the other nutrient cycles, the soil colloids, the whole agroecosystem and how these might be theoretically managed. At the point that humanity endeavors to manage these cycles and invents agriculture anything *natural* goes out the window so far as I am concerned, but you have heard all that from me before. To the old timers, who I know, the whole natural substance is better than the synthetic substance thing was recognized long ago as a double edged sword. The assumption was that if the substance was natural then a biological system was more likely to be able to handle it and most importantly it was more likely to be short lived in the system. All of us understood that there were going to be and were synthetic substances that would be as good as naturals(maybe even better) but the natural allowed, synthetic prohibited rule of thumb was the easy(and unsophisticated) way out. Now a whole bureaucracy has grown up around it, one that I have characterized as not only unsophisticated but seemingly predatory. The type of review that potential organic inputs are being put through now is byzantine and draconian. Frankly I had no idea seven years ago that any one outside of government circles had that sort of talent, boy did I learn different. This stringency, appearing mindless to the technically astute, results in a further force to drive the food safety issue to the center of the discussion leaving the historic and philosophical core as the poor stepchild given the occasional crust of lip service but little sustenance. Your last statement is the clincher and what the organic community has missed is that the consumer that is moved by such tactic is a fickle consumer and not one that you would want to build an industry on. Here today gone tomorrow. I continue to be most interested in the structure of agriculture in the next century and in the role of agroecosystem and soil humus management in that agriculture. Your posts are always a delight, I still want to hear your take on *natural law*. Happy solstice and on to the third millennium! Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 19:18:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27195 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16015 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:56:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.56.248]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15988 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: richarde@ncatark.uark.edu Received: from 608U.uark.edu ([130.184.56.30]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id RAA16994; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:56:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912202356.RAA16994@ncatark.uark.edu> To: "Wilson, Dale" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:56:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Cancer risk as urban legend? Reply-to: richarde@ncatark.uark.edu CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu In-reply-to: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A008F@vela.phibred.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 772 Howdy all, I am presently reading a book called "Living Downstream: A Scientist's Personal Investigation of Cancer and the Environment"(1997), by Sandra Steingraber, a Ph.d biologist and ecologist. It is extremely well-written, well-researched, and well- reasoned. I hope that everyone taking part in this discussion will look for it. Steingraber examines the evidence for cancer "clusters"-- areas (geographical, cultural, occupational, etc.) that have higher rates of particular cancers compared to the general population--and possible environmental explanations. She begins in her own county in Illinois. I spent my own childhood in what was to become such a cluster. When I was born in Jacksonville, Arkansas in 1970 the town was home to a factory that produced Agent Orange. In the early 90's, the defunct factory was cleaned up with Superfund money. The public library has a filing cabinet documenting the dioxin contamination of the town and the high incidence of dioxin- associated cancers. IMO my generation and my parents' have been involuntary "experimental" subjects. Because I think this is a very important topic, and this information needs to be disseminated, I've taken the time to post the following excerpts. Please don't delete it--read it or save for later. These quotes are taken from the first 50 pages, all I've read so far. I think they speak well to the questions that have come up in this thread. "There are individuals who claim, as a form of dismissal, that links between cancer and environmental contamination are unproven and unprovable. There are others who believe that placing people in harm's way is wrong--whether the exact mechanisms by which this harm is inflicted can be precisely deciphered or not. At the very least, they argue, we are obliged to investigate, however imperfect our scientific tools: with the right to know comes the duty to inquire. "Happily, the latter perspective is gaining esteem as many leading cancer researchers acknowledge the need for an "upstream" focus. As explained at a recent international conference, this image comes from a fable about a village along a river. The residents who live here, according to a parable, began noticing increasing numbers of drowning people caught in the river's swift current and so went to work inventing ever more elaborate technologies to resuscitate them. So preoccupied were these heroic villagers with rescue and treatment that they never thought to look upstream to see who was pushing the victims in. "This book is a walk up that river. "When all the diagnoses of years past and present are tallied, an ongoing narrative emerges that tells us how the incidence of cancer has been and is changing. Changes in cancer incidence, in turn, provide key clues about the possible causes of cancer. For example, if heredity is suspected as the main cause of a certain kind of cancer, we would not expect to see its incidence rise rapidly over the course of a few human generations because genes cannot increase their frequency in the population that quickly. Or if a particular environmental carcinogen is suspected, we can see if a rise in incidence corresponds to the introduction of such substances into the workplace or the general environment (taking into account the lag time between exposure and onset of disease). Such an association does not constitute absolute proof, but it gives us ground to launch additional inquiries. "The work of compiling statistics on cancer incidence is carried out at a network of cancer registries, which exist in the U. S. at both the state and the federal levels. Theoretically, for each new cancer diagnosis, a report is sent to a registry [containing] a coded description of the type of cancer; the stage to which it has advanced; and the geographic region, age, sex, and ethnicity of the newly diagnosed person. "This incoming information is then processed, analyzed, audited, graphed, and disseminated by teams of statisticians. In and of itself, a head count is not very useful. The prevalence of cancer is higher now than it was a century ago, in part because there are simply more people now. There are also proportionally more older people alive now than ever before, and the aged tend to get more cancer than the young. Between 1970 and 1990, for example, the U.S. population increased by 22 percent, and the number of people over sixty-five increased by 55 percent. To eliminate the effects of the changing size and age structure of the population, cancer registries standardize the data. One way of doing this is to calculate a cancer incidence rate, which is traditionally expressed as the number of new cases of cancer for every 100,000 people per year. For example, in 1982, 90 out of every 100,000 women living in the state of Mass. were diagnosed with breast cancer. By 1990, the incidence rose to 112 out of 100,000. "These numbers are also age-adjusted. That is, the data from all the differently aged people from any given year are weighted to match the age distribution of a particular census year. Thus standardized, the statistics from various years can be compared to each other. In this way, we know that the 24 percent rise in breast cancer in Mass. that occurred between 1982 and 1990 did not happen because the population of New England women was aging. Alternatively, cancer registry data can be made age-specific: the percentage of 45- to 49-year-olds contacting breast cancer can, for example, be compared with the percentage from a decade ago... "While still a matter of some debate, the most widely accepted estimate is that between 25 and 40 percent of the recent upsurge in breast cancer is attributable to earlier detection. Underlying this acceleration exists still a gradual, steady, and long-term increase in breast cancer incidence...This slow rise--between 1 and 2 percent each year since 1940--predates the introduction of mammograms as a common diagnostic tool. Moreover, the groups of women in whom breast cancer incidence is ascending most swiftly--blacks and the elderly--are among those least served by mammography. Between 1973 and 1991, the incidence of breast cancer in females over 65 in the United States rose nearly 40 percent, while the incidence of breast cancer in black females of all ages rose more than 30 percent. "All types combined, the incidence of cancer in the U.S. rose 49.3 percent between 1950 and 1991. This is the longest reliable view we have available. If lung cancer is excluded, overall incidence still rose by 35 percent. Or, to express these figures in another way: at midcentury a cancer diagnosis was the expected fate of about 25 percent of Americans...while today, about 40 percent of us (38.3 percent of women and 48.2 percent of men) will contract the disease sometime within our lifespans. Cancer is now the second leading cause of death overall...More of the overall upsurge has occurred in the past two decades than in the previous two. "...[W]hile smoking remains the largest single known preventable cause of cancer, the majority of cancers cannot be traced back to cigarettes. Indeed, many of the cancers now exhibiting swift rates of increase--cancers of the brain, bone marrow, lymph nodes, skin, and testicles, for example--are not related to smoking. Testicular cancer is now the most common cancer to strike men in their twenties and thirties. Among young men both here and in Europe, it has doubled in frequency during the past two decades. These increases cannot be attributed to improved diagnostic practices. Brain cancer rates have risen particularly among the elderly. Between 1973 and 1991, brain cancers among all Americans rose 25 percent. Those over sixty-five suffered a 54 percent rise. "Mortality and incidence do not always track each other. No cancers are increasing in mortality while decreasing in incidence, but several cancers have increased in incidence even as their death rates have declined due to more effective treatments. According to SEER data, these include cancers of the ovary, testicle, colon and rectum, bladder, and thyroid. There are eight cancers whose incidence and mortality are both on the decline: those of the stomach, pancreas, larynx, mouth and pharynx, cervix and uterus, as well as Hodgkin's disease and leukemia... "However, these modest gains are swamped by the cancers that show both increasing incidence and increasing mortality: cancers of the brain, liver, breast, kidney, prostate, esophagus, skin (melanoma), bone marrow (multiple myeloma), and lymph (non-Hodgkins lymphoma) have all escalated over the past twenty years and show long-term increases that can be traced back at least forty years. "...'Explanations for these increases do not exist,' according to Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician and leading public health researcher...Clarification about carcinogins, Landrigan believes, requires an environmental line of inquiry: 'The possible contribution to recent cancer trends of the substantial worldwide increases in chemical production that have ocurred since World War II (and the resulting increases in human exposure to toxic chemicals in the environment) has not been adequately assessed. It needs to be systematically evaluated.'" "I am struck...by the symmetry between Landrigan's recommended course of action and an observation made thirty years earlier by two senior scientists at the National Cancer Institute, Wilhelm Hueper and W.C. Conway: 'Cancers of all types and all causes display even under already existing conditions, all the characteristics of an epidemic in slow motion.'...And yet the possible relationship between cancer and what Hueper and Conway called 'the growing chemicalization of the human economy' has not been pursued in any systematic, exhaustive way. "...The rise in cancer incidence over calendar time is one line of evidence that implicates environmental factors. The increase in cancer incidence among successive generations is another. A third line of evidence comes from a close cosideration of the cancers that exhibit particularly rapid rates of increase. If we restrict our view to these cancers, what patterns emerge? "...Melanoma accounts for only 5 percent of all skin cancers, but it is the most dangerous kind, accounting for 75 percent of skin cancer deaths. The U.S. incidence of melanoma rose nearly 350 percent between 1950 and 1991, and mortality rose by 157 percent. Between 1982 and 1989 alone, melanoma incidence jumped 83 percent...The accelerating incidence of melanoma means exposure to ultraviolet radiation is probably increasing. This could be happening for two reasons. First, more people are spending more time in the sun. Second, the sunlight to which we are exposed contains more ultraviolet rays. "...While the incidence of Hodgkin's disease has declined modestly over the past two decades, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma has shot up-- approximately tripling in incidence since 1950. This increase is evident in both sexes and within all age groups except the very young...Lymphomas do seem to be consistently associated with exposure to synthetic chemicals, especially a class of pesticides known as phenoxy herbicides [including 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, and the combination of these two, Agent Orange]. "...Multiple myeloma is also associated with exposure to a variety of chemicals--metals, rubber, paint, industrial solvents, and petroleum. Farmers and agricultural workers exposed to pesticides and herbicides have higher rates of multiple myeloma than the general population. Multiple myeloma is on the rise in all major industrialized countries. But the parallel increase among both sexes argues against a purely occupational cause. According to one researcher who has examined multinational mortality trends, the patterns of multiple myeloma among generational cohorts suggest a general environmental exposure of some kind, common to all industrialized countries... "...The spatial features of cancer's occurrence around the globe clearly belie the notion that cancer is a random misfortune. Industrialized countries have disproportianately more cancers than countries with little or no industry (after adjusting for age and population size). One-half of all the world's cancers occur among people living in industrialized countries, even though we are only one-fifth of the world's population. Closely tracking industrialization are breast cancer rates, which are highest in North America and northern Europe, intermediate in southern Europe and Latin America, and lowest in Asia and Africa. Breast cancer rates are thirty times higher in the U.S. than in parts of Africa, for example. Breast cancer incidence in the U.S. is five times higher than it is in Japan, though this gap is rapidly narrowing. Of all the world's nations, Japan has the most rapidly rising rate of breast cancer. "Because we have no nationwide cancer registry, we also have no definitive geography of cancer incidence in the U.S. The National Cancer Institute has, however, published the two-volume 'Atlas of U.S. Cancer Mortality among Whites and Nonwhites: 1950-1980'-- in essence, cancer death maps. Areas of high mortality are colored in scarlet, fuchsia, and orange; areas of unusually low mortality are painted deep blue... "Death from cancer is not randomly distributed in the U.S. Shades of red consistently light up the northeast coast, the Great Lakes area, and the mouth of the Mississippi River. For all cancers combined, these are the areas of highest mortality; they are also the areas of the most intense industrial activity." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 20 19:37:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27387 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25237 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:15:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25189 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:15:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-243ppp117.epix.net [205.238.243.117]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id TAA10998; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:15:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385EC853.416129B7@epix.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:22:44 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bluestem Associates CC: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 773 Bluestem Associates wrote: > can someone who > understands the current 'logic' of the organic bureaucracy explain to > me why organic agriculture prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist > like T-22 (Trichoderma harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion > techniques used to improve the strain is "genetic engineering," while > they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative > impact on earthworms? > > Bart Great point! It supports the question I asked earlier about the use of Rotenone in organic production. That's what I don't understand about organic bureaucracy. It allows certain pesticides (mostly *natural*), but prohibits some of the newer chemical pesticides which quite possibly are safer and less harmful to the environment then the *natural* ones. Is this sustainable??? (and please, can someone answer the above question w/o philosophy and rabbit trails!) Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 07:28:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03049 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA28966 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:02:48 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28866 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-40.csj.net [12.29.22.40]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA24556; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 06:02:41 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: "'Winter, Leif and Barbara'" , Subject: Patent claims Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 05:57:36 -0600 Message-ID: <000901bf4baa$bdda7f40$53ecfea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <385E4D6E.BCAE87EA@epix.net> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 774 The part to be really concerned with are the claims. In the case of this patent as written and published (and don't expect me to explain the genetic terms-I am ignorant) they use examples which were allowed up until one year ago. Now (this is what I hit) the USPTO expect double blind and controlled studies, so as it sits the Novartis patent should not be allowed. However, they can still get the patent for the production of certain transgenic material and not the specified uses. Small but important difference requiring more patents for use protection. I think it is Pioneer-correct me Dale- that has very broad claims on large list of natural plant lectins. I discovered this when I did a literature search for my daughter who was doing a HS science project on the natural insecticide acitivity of osage orange. That is NOT limited to transgenic, but looks like it includes making a slurry in the blender for application in your home garden. As it turned out, the latex in the osage orange would have required orgainc solvents and a full hood to process. I was not willing to donate my blender, or the rest of my kitchen appliances, to science so we changed the project to recycling newswpaper through gerbils for worms. We did not infringe on the Pioneer patent. Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Winter, Leif and Barbara Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 9:38 AM To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: New Novartis Patent VI Could someone explain the new patent in terms that don't turn my brain to mush? To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 07:32:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03080 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03362 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:13:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03349 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-40.csj.net [12.29.22.40]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25248; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 06:13:08 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: "'wytze'" , , Subject: RE: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 06:09:01 -0600 Message-ID: <000a01bf4bac$40c873c0$53ecfea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <385E8F37.4B900D97@zap.a2000.nl> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 775 Once filed it cannot be changed without a legal petition for correction-takes months. Maybe the server is down from overuse. Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of wytze Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 2:19 PM To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com Subject: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" Dear all, The Novartis patent wo9935913 is "temporarily unaivalabe". I do not know if it is a systemmistake. It looks different. Maybe Novartis wants to rewrite certain parts of it, like correcting the "typos" of the effectiveness figures. Too bad, I would have liked to look closer at the range of insects and nematodes affected by the "invention". wytze To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 08:18:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03427 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17827 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:58:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17813 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-49.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.49]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA03478; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:58:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385F7A30.2289@eclipse.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:01:36 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, aquaponics@townsqr.com CC: "Cholmondeley, Andre (and Cheri)" , "Calabro, Dave" Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1497 References: <199912202310.SAA01249@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 776 My wishes for the NEW YEAR: Junk Science or Bunk? http://www.junkscience.com/dec99/benjerr2.htm http://www.junkscience.com/nov99/bjpress.htm Junk Science is a website that I believe to be QUITE dangerous in dissemination of reverse results, ie. they find the one study that refutes and hype it. DDT is OK! "Many children enjoy Ben & Jerry's ice cream," said Milloy, "but by the company's own standards, its ice cream is not safe. Are they are choosing corporate profits over children's health?" he asked. Milloy appears here to be a stooge not questioning what other ice cream companies are doing (or not doing). A quote by B&J over the "no safe" level of dioxin is taken out of context. And within a breath or two: The DDT debunk scares the pants off me: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991227/carson.htm debunks Carson author of "Silent Spring" So now we are to believe that "all other reasons" are for the thinning of the bald eagle shells. While banned decades ago in industrialized countries, thousands of tons of the deadly pesticide DDT are still produced each year, causing health and environmental hazards in the U.S. and throughout the world because of its long life and ability to travel great distances. It also converts to DDE and other slightly less noxious forms. It has a half life of 8 years meaning it will take 16 years to dissipate if death does not occur. DDT the first of the chlorinated organic insecticides, was originally prepared in 1873, but it was not until 1939 that Paul Muller of Geigy Pharmaceutical in Switzerland discovered the effectiveness of DDT as an insecticide he was awarded the Nobel Prize in medicine and physiology in 1948 for this discovery). The use of DDT increased enormously on a worldwide basis after World War II, primarily because of its effectiveness against the mosquito that spreads malaria and lice that carry typhus. The World Health Organization estimates that during the period of its use approximately 25 million lives were saved. DDT seemed to be the ideal insecticideit is cheap and of relatively low toxicity to mammals (oral LD50 is 300 to 500 mg/kg). However, problems related to extensive use of DDT began to appear in the late 1940s. Many species of insects developed resistance to DDT, and DDT was also discovered to have a high toxicity toward fish. Also from http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm But mosquitoes were killed which is a good thing or so we think. And somewhere along the line, "ORGANIC FARMING" returned, revitalized!!! -- Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 08:58:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03774 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01436 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:36:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sscntex.ssc.msu.edu (ssc.msu.edu [35.8.70.66]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01409 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by SSCNTEX with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:35:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Harris, Craig" To: "'sanet'" Subject: priorities Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:35:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 777 thought environmental, pest management, ag labor, and organic groups on sanet might like to know about this usda csrees call for priorities cheers, craig CSREES Announces Stakeholder Priorities Website ====================================== CSREES announces the establishment of a website to facilitate easy access to the priorities of our stakeholders. The site will provide a direct link to the priority listings of organizations. These links are provided strictly as a resource that may be helpful to those working on agricultural issues. Our primary targets are scientific organizations and commodity, environmental, consumer and other public interest groups that have established research and/or educational priorities. We believe this will help faculty and others as they prepare grant proposals for submission to our programs. This stakeholder website will be linked to the Funding Opportunities location in the very near future. If you know of organizations appropriate to this list, please direct them to this page and ask them to contact JULIE SIMMONS at jsimmons@reeusda.gov; Fax: 202-205-3641; Phone: 202-401-6996), Assistant Program Director in CSREES' National Research Initiative, if they wish to be listed. Organizations should provide: (1) organization's full name; (2) the website address where their priorities are listed; and (3) an organizational contact person. (They should not provide their home page address, but instead a direct address to their priority listings.) Organizations should also be apprised that the Stakeholder Priorities index is designed for organizations, not individuals. Inclusion of an organization's priorities does not imply an endorsement or certification by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. CSREES reserves the right not to link to web sites deemed inappropriate for the USDA's Research, Education, and Economics mission area. CSREES staff involved in reviewing sites for their appropriateness to the USDA's mission areas include: Natural Resources - CINDY HUEBNER, TIM STRICKLAND; Nutrition/Food Safety - MEL MATHIAS, ETTA SALTOS; Plants - MIKE FITZNER, CINDY HUEBNER; Animals - PETER JOHNSON, BILL WAGNER; Social/Economics/Markets & Trade - MARK BAILEY, JOHN MICHAEL; Sustainable Ag - SALLY MAGGARD; Education/Academic/International Programs - HIRAM LAREW, KEVIN BACON. If you have other questions about this web site, please contact either PETER J. JOHNSON at pjohnson@reeusda.gov; phone: 202-401-1896, or WILLIAM C. WAGNER at wwagner@reeusda.gov; phone: 202-401-4952. u might like to know about the usda csrees call for priorities cheers, craig craig k harris department of sociology center for integrated plant systems 429b berkey hall michigan state university east lansing michigan 48824-1111 u.s.a. tel: 517-355-5048 fax: 517-432-2856 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 09:30:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04210 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12643 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:03:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lobster.eky.com (root@lobster.eky.com [209.211.1.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12638 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from halsdesktop (ip3-36.eky.com [209.211.3.36]) by lobster.eky.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17093; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Hal Hamilton" To: "Ted Rogers" , Subject: RE: Rational argument (was: Rotenone Hazards) -Reply Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:01:52 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 778 Ted, thank you. I read all the way through your post, for a change, and I learned. A friend of mine calls learning "a blinding flash of the obvious." hal Hal Hamilton Center for Sustainable Systems 433 Chestnut St., Berea KY 40403 USA Phone: (606) 986-5336; Fax: (606) 986-1299 hhamilton@centerss.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Ted Rogers Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 6:39 PM To: WILSONDO@phibred.com Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; loscott@envsci.rutgers.EDU Subject: Rational argument (was: Rotenone Hazards) -Reply Hey Dale You said: *I disagree with LM's contention that your argument is a straw-man, and I believe you are right. Food safety concerns are driving the ag chemical industry toward safe, well-targeted pesticides. Many are clearly safer than classic natural products like rotenone. But I do think he has a point about how much regard organic adherents have for rational arguments. I don't believe that the driver in this movement is really safety, but a desire to cohere to natural law. The food safety issue is more of a tool to incite to action the masses, who don't care that much about natural law (or just incite them to buy organic).* Interesting perspective and it illuminates some of the things I have been trying to express. Yes and in this country we will, I think, see many very good reduced risk pesticides with that narrow spectrum of effect. Don*t forget that these will be expensive and highly profitable for their registrants. I of course would like to see more work done on biological control agents but there is less likely high profit in that realm. I think that the both would be best for good bio-intensive IPM or best management practice agriculture but we take what we can get. I understand that a lot more public money goes into biological strategies in Europe. I am a little confused about what you are saying about organic, indeed the driver should not be food safety. The food safety issue was seized upon by novices and marketing people and has taken over the field, so to speak. I think that you give the organic market and community to much credit for formulating a strategy of any kind. I need to know what you think their concept of *natural law* is. Be careful getting into their minds is a dangerous exercise. My perspective as a student and practitioner of organiculture for thirty years is that the THEORY is that when the soil system(and projecting from the soil into the whole agroecosystem) is properly managed then the need for invasive pest management techniques (whether *approved* organic inputs and techniques or otherwise) is reduced over time to approach nil. All of us who have worked with this THEORY for a while have heaps of anecdotal *evidence* but data is rare. It (data) is not nonexistent there is just very little and the stuff is site specific, disjointed and in some instances very old (Bill Albrecht did a whole series of green house studies from the forties through the sixties growing insect infested plants side by side with healthy un-infested plants the only difference being the balancing of cations on the soil colloid) that it cannot stand scrutiny with out a lot more replicated and modern work. So it remains a THEORY, one that I tend to BELIEVE, but the *organic* scientific community has not yet done enough work for anyone to talk about many facts. I do not consider this THEORY to have anything to do with *natural law* it has to do with what are some basic biological facts such as the carbon and nitrogen cycles, some of the other nutrient cycles, the soil colloids, the whole agroecosystem and how these might be theoretically managed. At the point that humanity endeavors to manage these cycles and invents agriculture anything *natural* goes out the window so far as I am concerned, but you have heard all that from me before. To the old timers, who I know, the whole natural substance is better than the synthetic substance thing was recognized long ago as a double edged sword. The assumption was that if the substance was natural then a biological system was more likely to be able to handle it and most importantly it was more likely to be short lived in the system. All of us understood that there were going to be and were synthetic substances that would be as good as naturals(maybe even better) but the natural allowed, synthetic prohibited rule of thumb was the easy(and unsophisticated) way out. Now a whole bureaucracy has grown up around it, one that I have characterized as not only unsophisticated but seemingly predatory. The type of review that potential organic inputs are being put through now is byzantine and draconian. Frankly I had no idea seven years ago that any one outside of government circles had that sort of talent, boy did I learn different. This stringency, appearing mindless to the technically astute, results in a further force to drive the food safety issue to the center of the discussion leaving the historic and philosophical core as the poor stepchild given the occasional crust of lip service but little sustenance. Your last statement is the clincher and what the organic community has missed is that the consumer that is moved by such tactic is a fickle consumer and not one that you would want to build an industry on. Here today gone tomorrow. I continue to be most interested in the structure of agriculture in the next century and in the role of agroecosystem and soil humus management in that agriculture. Your posts are always a delight, I still want to hear your take on *natural law*. Happy solstice and on to the third millennium! Best, Ted To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 10:09:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04722 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27079 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:50:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub1.lvs.dupont.com (mhub1.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27075 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub2.lvs.dupont.com by mhub1.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:49:54 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub2.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:48:55 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:48:53 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A009F@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'gcr@rhealiving.com'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Patent claims Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:48:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 779 Donna, > The part to be really concerned with are the claims. In the > case of this patent as written and published... I am concerned that patent claims are too broad and all-encompassing. From what I have seen, it looks like the folks at the Patent office don't have a very good breadth of knowledge, especially in applied biology. Many things I see patented are really "prior art." Novartis is a master at this game. A lot of what you see is sparring between the big ag chemical/pharmaceutical giants. Everyone knows a lot of the patent claims are silly and will be challenged. Many of these are bargaining chips. The problem is that the small companies can't play. I don't see why the patent office allows itself to be manipulated in this way. > I think it is Pioneer-correct me Dale- that has very broad > claims on large list of natural plant lectins. > ...it includes making a slurry in the blender for > application in your home garden... >...We did not infringe on the Pioneer patent. I don't know, it wouldn't surprise me. It may be that some of these claims are too broad. I think it is ethical to patent a truly new use for a natural product, but only when the "use" involves incorporation of the substance in a marketable product. I don't think they can or should control what people blend up in their kitchen from natural ingredients. Anyway, these big companies don't care about that. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 10:14:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04772 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28534 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:58:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us (kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us [162.114.136.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28507 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:58:22 -0500 (EST) From: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Received: by kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:02:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: bluestem@webserf.net, sgroff@epix.net Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Low-risk pesticides ... Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:46:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 780 It is asking a lot to ask logic of any bureaucracy - organic, conventional ag, political, etc. But bureaucracies are not people. I find it interesting all this talk about rotenone. I have been growing organically for over 20 years. The farm I am now on has been managed organically for the 10 I have lived here. I can't remember the last time I purchased rotenone, or sabadilla, or pyrethrum, or any other botanical. We do use BT on a very occasional basis - quite different from having it systemically in a plant. I am aware that the organic regulations that I am certified under allow use of these botanicals with certain provisos. But, I am also aware that they are broad spectrum, and not a good choice for insect balance. We are market gardeners, and bring to market produce that is second to none, and we do it with no sprays of any kind. It wasn't always this way. The first 3-4 years, I struggled with a variety of insect pests. However, now, we have virtually no economically important insect pests. If we have aphids, we also have predators. Only in the greenhouse, which is a closed and somewhat artificial system, do we ever have a large enough problem for intervention, and we usually use a soap solution. I don't think we are unique among experienced organic growers in using very little intervention in pest management. Please quit equating use of broad spectrum botanicals with organic growers - it doesn't always fit, any more than bashing conventional farmers always fits. Alison Wiediger Au Naturel Farm Smiths Grove, KY > ---------- > From: Steve Groff[SMTP:sgroff@epix.net] > Reply To: sgroff@epix.net > Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 6:22 PM > To: Bluestem Associates > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... > > Bluestem Associates wrote: > > > can someone who > > understands the current 'logic' of the organic bureaucracy explain to > > me why organic agriculture prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist > > like T-22 (Trichoderma harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion > > techniques used to improve the strain is "genetic engineering," while > > they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative > > impact on earthworms? > > > > Bart > > Great point! It supports the question I asked earlier about the use of > Rotenone in organic production. That's what I don't understand about > organic > bureaucracy. It allows certain pesticides (mostly *natural*), but > prohibits > some of the newer chemical pesticides which quite possibly are safer and > less harmful to the environment then the *natural* ones. Is this > sustainable??? > > (and please, can someone answer the above question w/o philosophy and > rabbit > trails!) > > Steve Groff > > "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ > Cedar Meadow Farm > 679 Hilldale Road > Holtwood, PA 17532 USA > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 10:17:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04825 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28729 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:00:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (smtp1.a2000.nl [62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28700 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 120QlH-0006nY-00; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:59:39 +0100 Message-ID: <385F9B6A.665E65EB@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:23:22 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gcr@rhealiving.com CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, Biotech_activists@iatp.org Subject: Re: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" References: <000a01bf4bac$40c873c0$53ecfea9@donna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 781 Thanks, that is reassuring. It seems the server is back in action. I hope to have a printed copy by the end of the week. Over the next two days I hope to send a bit more info from the patent, which should be possible to access at http://ep.espacenet.com/ . In the mean time, one more not so hypothetical "foodcrop of the future" for practicing the skill of foodsafety evaluation: -A tomato, with IR, HR and fungal resistance (FR): IR induced by a geneconstruct comprising Bt-CryIA(b), CaMV. HR induced by Protoporphyrinogen oxidase or PROTOX, FR induced by a gene construct with a gene for Phenylalanine Ammonia Lyase (PAL) and CaMV. The tomato was sprayed throughout the season with a mixture of Acilluorfen, Flumiclorac-pentyl and Nipyraclofen. Also, the seed was coated with a New! "slow release" Novartis formula, a mixture of thiamethoxam, pyriproxyfen, abamectin and spinosad. The tomato shows several advantages, one of which is the absence of an anti-biotic resistance marker gene. Agronomic advantage is increased pollination and reduced vegetative growth. Consumer advantage is a slightly prolonged shelflife. We include a recipe for tomatosalad. Cut and slice the tomatoes, dressing of sunfloweroil, garlic and onion. Do not miss this great opportunity! Bon appetit! Wishing you all a great holiday season and Milleniumchange! Wytze Donna Fezler wrote: > Once filed it cannot be changed without a legal petition for > correction-takes months. Maybe the server is down from overuse. > > Donna Fezler > GCR > Jacksonville, IL > > http://www.rhealiving.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On > Behalf Of wytze > Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 2:19 PM > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com > Subject: Novartis patent "temporarily unavailable" > > Dear all, > The Novartis patent wo9935913 is "temporarily unaivalabe". I do not know > if it is a systemmistake. It looks different. Maybe Novartis wants to > rewrite certain parts of it, like correcting the "typos" of the > effectiveness figures. Too bad, I would have liked to look closer at the > range of insects and nematodes affected by the "invention". > > wytze > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 11:03:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05551 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10226 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:27:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub5.lvs.dupont.com (mhub5.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.14]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10210 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub2.lvs.dupont.com by mhub5.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:27:08 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub2.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:26:44 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:26:43 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A00A1@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Bureaucracy (was: Low-risk pesticides ...) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:26:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 782 Alison, > It is asking a lot to ask logic of any bureaucracy - organic, > conventional ag, political, etc. But bureaucracies are not > people. This is all a people thing. They (we) must be accountable and honest and they (we) must strive for excellence. Bureaucracy is no excuse. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 11:25:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05987 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04705 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:59:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04689 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-04-185.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.185]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA04726 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:59:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385FA49F.5206@eclipse.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:02:39 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Junk Science or Are We Prepared for the Year 2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 783 My wishes for the NEW YEAR: Junk Science or Bunk? http://www.junkscience.com/dec99/benjerr2.htm http://www.junkscience.com/nov99/bjpress.htm Junk Science is a website that I believe to be QUITE dangerous in dissemination of reverse results, ie. they find the one study that refutes and hype it. DDT is OK! "Many children enjoy Ben & Jerry's ice cream," said Milloy, "but by the company's own standards, its ice cream is not safe. Are they choosing corporate profits over children's health?" he asked. Milloy appears here to be a stooge not questioning what other ice cream companies are doing (or not doing). A quote by B&J over the "no safe" level of dioxin is taken out of context. And within a breath or two: The DDT debunk scares the pants off me: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991227/carson.htm debunks Carson author of "Silent Spring" So now we are to believe that "all other reasons" are for the thinning of the bald eagle shells. While banned decades ago in industrialized countries, thousands of tons of the deadly pesticide DDT are still produced each year, causing health and environmental hazards in the U.S. and throughout the world because of its long life and ability to travel great distances. It also converts to DDE and other slightly less noxious forms. It has a half life of 8 years meaning it will take 16 years to dissipate if death does not occur. DDT the first of the chlorinated organic insecticides, was originally prepared in 1873, but it was not until 1939 that Paul Muller of Geigy Pharmaceutical in Switzerland discovered the effectiveness of DDT as an insecticide he was awarded the Nobel Prize in medicine and physiology in 1948 for this discovery). The use of DDT increased enormously on a worldwide basis after World War II, primarily because of its effectiveness against the mosquito that spreads malaria and lice that carry typhus. The World Health Organization estimates that during the period of its use approximately 25 million lives were saved. DDT seemed to be the ideal insecticideit is cheap and of relatively low toxicity to mammals (oral LD50 is 300 to 500 mg/kg). However, problems related to extensive use of DDT began to appear in the late 1940s. Many species of insects developed resistance to DDT, and DDT was also discovered to have a high toxicity toward fish. Also from http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm But mosquitoes were killed which is a good thing or so we think. And somewhere along the line, "ORGANIC FARMING" returned, revitalized!!! -- Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 11:25:18 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05991 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07000 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:06:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from relay.econ.ag.gov (relay2.econ.ag.gov [151.121.68.19]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06909 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from router-3.ers.usda.gov (151.121.68.17:4839) by relay.econ.ag.gov (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000BC55@relay.econ.ag.gov>; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:03:18 -0500 Received: from router-3.ers.usda.gov (fw_dmz.econ.ag.gov) by email.econ.ag.gov (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00006DD5@email.econ.ag.gov>; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:04:01 -0500 Message-ID: <385FA58F.27747C5C@email.econ.ag.gov> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:06:40 -0500 From: "Catherine R. Greene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us CC: bluestem@webserf.net, sgroff@epix.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 784 Under 6 percent of the approximately 300 respondents to USDA's survey of certified organic vegetable growers in the U.S. reported using rotonone in 1994, and under 6 percent reported using rotonone mixtures. The results of the survey were published in the American Journal of Alternative Agriculture, Vol. 13, No. 2, 1998 in an article titled, "Organic vegetable production in the U.S.: Certified growers and their practices." Cathy Greene Economic Research Service, USDA awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us wrote: > It is asking a lot to ask logic of any bureaucracy - organic, conventional > ag, political, etc. But bureaucracies are not people. I find it > interesting all this talk about rotenone. I have been growing organically > for over 20 years. The farm I am now on has been managed organically for > the 10 I have lived here. I can't remember the last time I purchased > rotenone, or sabadilla, or pyrethrum, or any other botanical. We do use BT > on a very occasional basis - quite different from having it systemically in > a plant. I am aware that the organic regulations that I am certified under > allow use of these botanicals with certain provisos. But, I am also aware > that they are broad spectrum, and not a good choice for insect balance. We > are market gardeners, and bring to market produce that is second to none, > and we do it with no sprays of any kind. It wasn't always this way. The > first 3-4 years, I struggled with a variety of insect pests. However, now, > we have virtually no economically important insect pests. If we have > aphids, we also have predators. Only in the greenhouse, which is a closed > and somewhat artificial system, do we ever have a large enough problem for > intervention, and we usually use a soap solution. I don't think we are > unique among experienced organic growers in using very little intervention > in pest management. Please quit equating use of broad spectrum botanicals > with organic growers - it doesn't always fit, any more than bashing > conventional farmers always fits. > > Alison Wiediger > Au Naturel Farm > Smiths Grove, KY > > > ---------- > > From: Steve Groff[SMTP:sgroff@epix.net] > > Reply To: sgroff@epix.net > > Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 6:22 PM > > To: Bluestem Associates > > Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... > > > > Bluestem Associates wrote: > > > > > can someone who > > > understands the current 'logic' of the organic bureaucracy explain to > > > me why organic agriculture prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist > > > like T-22 (Trichoderma harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion > > > techniques used to improve the strain is "genetic engineering," while > > > they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative > > > impact on earthworms? > > > > > > Bart > > > > Great point! It supports the question I asked earlier about the use of > > Rotenone in organic production. That's what I don't understand about > > organic > > bureaucracy. It allows certain pesticides (mostly *natural*), but > > prohibits > > some of the newer chemical pesticides which quite possibly are safer and > > less harmful to the environment then the *natural* ones. Is this > > sustainable??? > > > > (and please, can someone answer the above question w/o philosophy and > > rabbit > > trails!) > > > > Steve Groff > > > > "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ > > Cedar Meadow Farm > > 679 Hilldale Road > > Holtwood, PA 17532 USA > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 12:18:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06927 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28434 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:59:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28430 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-001tnchatP301.dialsprint.net [158.252.95.39]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28114; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:59:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <385FB22E.7D6451E5@sprintmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:00:31 -0500 From: Alex McGregor Reply-To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Organization: Walden Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us CC: bluestem@webserf.net, sgroff@epix.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 785 awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us wrote: > I don't think we are unique among experienced organic growers in using very > little intervention in pest management. Please quit equating use of broad > spectrum botanicals > with organic growers - it doesn't always fit, any more than bashing > conventional farmers always fits. Alison, Thanks for speaking up. I, too, use no pesticides. I think what happens is people who think you have to use biocides to farm incorrectly assume that organic farmers use botanical biocides. This is not the case. Organic agriculture strives towards complimentary agriculture- working with nature and encouraging a balance of above and below ground ecosystems. My experience is that very few organic farmers merely switch from synthetics to botanicals. This may be a first step in transitioning for some, but is not the rule. I repeat a post from Cathy Greene (thanks, Cathy) in support of this: "Under 6 percent of the approximately 300 respondents to USDA's survey of certified organic vegetable growers in the U.S. reported using rotonone in 1994, and under 6 percent reported using rotonone mixtures. The results of the survey were published in the American Journal of Alternative Agriculture, Vol. 13, No. 2, 1998 in an article titled, 'Organic vegetable production in the U.S.: Certified growers and their practices.' " Organic farmers have shown that food crops can be grown with the same or more production per acre, with the same or less lost to pests, without using biocides or NPK fertilizers. Some day others may wake up to these facts. The problem lies in the fact that sustainable and/or organic techniques reduce or eliminate most of the product that can be sold to farmers. The agriculture supply companies won't readily give up their lucrative (but destructive) markets or change the way they do business readily. You can see the fear in their eyes from the threat of increasing organic production through their disinformation campaigns. These remind me of our modern political ads. I wonder who learned from whom? Alex To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 12:59:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07723 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10837 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:30:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10831 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from Creamer (creamer-cel333-212.hort.ncsu.edu [152.1.76.168]) by uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/UR01Feb99) with SMTP id KAA22721 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:30:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19991221153240.009d9fa4@pop-in.ncsu.edu> X-Sender: ncreamer@pop-in.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:32:40 -0500 To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu From: Nancy Creamer Subject: Job Opp: NCSU Organic Demo Farm Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 786 Student Farm and On-site Internship Coordinator North Carolina State University, Organic Unit, Center for Environmental Farming Systems, Goldsboro, North Carolina Coastal Plain Region February 2000 though October 2001 Salary: Dependent on experience Contact: Nancy Creamer, NCSU Horticultural Science, Box 7609, NCSU, Raleigh, NC, 27695-7609, 919.515.9447. nancy_creamer@ncsu.edu The Center for Environmental Farming Systems (CEFS) is dedicated to developing farming systems that are environmentally, economically, and socially sustainable. Established in 1994 at the North Carolina Department of Agriculture Cherry Farm near Goldsboro, the Center has over 2,000 acres (1,000 cleared). At the CEFS Organic Unit, research, extension, and education activities are ongoing on the 80 acres currently certified for organic production. CEFS is a unique partnership among North Carolina State University, North Carolina A&T State University, North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, non-governmental organizations, and other state and federal agencies, farmers and citizens. Funding is available to initiate a student internship program at the CEFS Organic Unit. Students may choose a production, research, or extension focus within an overarching teaching and experiential program in sustainable agriculture. In an intensive summer program, student interns will develop a Demonstration Farm to produce organic fruits and vegetables, conduct summer research projects, and facilitate demonstration and training in sustainable production practices for a wide range of audiences. The position advertised will coordinate on-site production activities and supervise student interns. Job Description: The On-site Coordinator will prepare the site, begin production, and manage a new 15-acre student farm at CEFS. A principle activity of the Coordinator will be the instruction and supervision of student interns who will plant, care for, and market organically grown horticultural crops. Farm management requirements will include transplant production, fertility management, composting, irrigation, pest management, and equipment operation. A wide range of equipment is available for use. Qualifications: Farm production and/or market gardening experience is required. The qualified individual must have excellent interpersonal skills and be capable of both receiving instruction in and providing hands-on training about sustainable and organic agriculture. The applicant should be a self-starter who enjoys working outdoors and is interested in learning about new techniques of sustainable crop production. The applicant should possess the ability to organize, coordinate, and supervise the activities of numerous individuals; and, therefore, some experience in a supervisory capacity is desirable. An undergraduate degree and/or formal training in the agricultural, biological, or environmental sciences is preferred, but not required. North Carolina State University is an Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Employer. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 13:11:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08001 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10318 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:29:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10314 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-39.csj.net [12.29.22.39]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06272; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:29:28 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: "'Wilson, Dale'" Cc: Subject: RE: Patent claims Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:21:40 -0600 Message-ID: <000001bf4bc7$ae344720$53ecfea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A009F@vela.phibred.com> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 787 I don't think they can or should control what people blend up in their kitchen from natural ingredients. Anyway, these big companies don't care about that. Dale The plants include plants we use in organic gardening as companion plants. Selling and making simple extractives is still a violation of the patent, whether done on a backyard scale or commercial scale. If they decided to be really bad, like the Monsanto folks did in Canada, the legal structure is there. Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 14:33:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09287 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09232 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:02:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (root@pasture.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.161.85]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09228 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecn.purdue.edu (abepc3.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.109.123]) by pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3moyman) with ESMTP id OAA21499; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:02:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385FCEB3.245239D7@ecn.purdue.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:02:12 -0500 From: Brent Ladd Organization: Purdue University Cooperative Extension Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: richarde@ncatark.uark.edu CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Cancer Risk/Resource References: <199912202356.RAA16994@ncatark.uark.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------029800D6E7171972F7279B73" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 788 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------029800D6E7171972F7279B73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been following the Cancer discussion and wanted to say I too have read Living Downstream. It's the second coming of Silent Spring. It is meticulously documented, makes sense out of all the myriad research, and most importantly puts a face on cancer. I have referred to this work a number of times in helping folks with water quality questions. I grew up just across the Illinois line in Indiana, so Steingraber's words hit very close to home. Anyone who is sincere about health and the environment needs to educate themselves by reading Living Downstream. Brent Ladd, Environmental Assessment Coordinator Purdue Extension richarde@ncatark.uark.edu wrote: > Howdy all, > > I am presently reading a book called "Living Downstream: A > Scientist's Personal Investigation of Cancer and the > Environment"(1997), by Sandra Steingraber, a Ph.d biologist and > ecologist. It is extremely well-written, well-researched, and well- > reasoned. I hope that everyone taking part in this discussion will > look for it. Steingraber examines the evidence for cancer "clusters"-- > areas (geographical, cultural, occupational, etc.) that have higher > rates of particular cancers compared to the general population--and > possible environmental explanations. She begins in her own county > in Illinois. I spent my own childhood in what was to become such > a cluster. When I was born in Jacksonville, Arkansas in 1970 the > town was home to a factory that produced Agent Orange. In the > early 90's, the defunct factory was cleaned up with Superfund > money. The public library has a filing cabinet documenting the > dioxin contamination of the town and the high incidence of dioxin- > associated cancers. IMO my generation and my parents' have > been involuntary "experimental" subjects. > > Because I think this is a very important topic, and this information > needs to be disseminated, I've taken the time to post the following > excerpts. Please don't delete it--read it or save for later. These > quotes are taken from the first 50 pages, all I've read so far. I think > they speak well to the questions that have come up in this thread. > > "There are individuals who claim, as a form of dismissal, that links > between cancer and environmental contamination are unproven and > unprovable. There are others who believe that placing people in > harm's way is wrong--whether the exact mechanisms by which this > harm is inflicted can be precisely deciphered or not. At the very > least, they argue, we are obliged to investigate, however imperfect > our scientific tools: with the right to know comes the duty to inquire. > "Happily, the latter perspective is gaining esteem as many > leading cancer researchers acknowledge the need for an > "upstream" focus. As explained at a recent international > conference, this image comes from a fable about a village along a > river. The residents who live here, according to a parable, began > noticing increasing numbers of drowning people caught in the river's > swift current and so went to work inventing ever more elaborate > technologies to resuscitate them. So preoccupied were these > heroic villagers with rescue and treatment that they never thought > to look upstream to see who was pushing the victims in. > "This book is a walk up that river. > > "When all the diagnoses of years past and present are tallied, an > ongoing narrative emerges that tells us how the incidence of cancer > has been and is changing. Changes in cancer incidence, in turn, > provide key clues about the possible causes of cancer. For > example, if heredity is suspected as the main cause of a certain > kind of cancer, we would not expect to see its incidence rise > rapidly over the course of a few human generations because genes > cannot increase their frequency in the population that quickly. Or if > a particular environmental carcinogen is suspected, we can see if a > rise in incidence corresponds to the introduction of such > substances into the workplace or the general environment (taking > into account the lag time between exposure and onset of disease). > Such an association does not constitute absolute proof, but it gives > us ground to launch additional inquiries. > "The work of compiling statistics on cancer incidence is carried > out at a network of cancer registries, which exist in the U. S. at > both the state and the federal levels. Theoretically, for each new > cancer diagnosis, a report is sent to a registry [containing] a coded > description of the type of cancer; the stage to which it has > advanced; and the geographic region, age, sex, and ethnicity of the > newly diagnosed person. > "This incoming information is then processed, analyzed, > audited, graphed, and disseminated by teams of statisticians. In > and of itself, a head count is not very useful. The prevalence of > cancer is higher now than it was a century ago, in part because > there are simply more people now. There are also proportionally > more older people alive now than ever before, and the aged tend to > get more cancer than the young. Between 1970 and 1990, for > example, the U.S. population increased by 22 percent, and the > number of people over sixty-five increased by 55 percent. To > eliminate the effects of the changing size and age structure of the > population, cancer registries standardize the data. One way of > doing this is to calculate a cancer incidence rate, which is > traditionally expressed as the number of new cases of cancer for > every 100,000 people per year. For example, in 1982, 90 out of > every 100,000 women living in the state of Mass. were diagnosed > with breast cancer. By 1990, the incidence rose to 112 out of > 100,000. > "These numbers are also age-adjusted. That is, the data from > all the differently aged people from any given year are weighted to > match the age distribution of a particular census year. Thus > standardized, the statistics from various years can be compared to > each other. In this way, we know that the 24 percent rise in breast > cancer in Mass. that occurred between 1982 and 1990 did not > happen because the population of New England women was aging. > Alternatively, cancer registry data can be made age-specific: the > percentage of 45- to 49-year-olds contacting breast cancer can, for > example, be compared with the percentage from a decade ago... > > "While still a matter of some debate, the most widely accepted > estimate is that between 25 and 40 percent of the recent upsurge > in breast cancer is attributable to earlier detection. Underlying this > acceleration exists still a gradual, steady, and long-term increase > in breast cancer incidence...This slow rise--between 1 and 2 > percent each year since 1940--predates the introduction of > mammograms as a common diagnostic tool. Moreover, the groups > of women in whom breast cancer incidence is ascending most > swiftly--blacks and the elderly--are among those least served by > mammography. Between 1973 and 1991, the incidence of breast > cancer in females over 65 in the United States rose nearly 40 > percent, while the incidence of breast cancer in black females of all > ages rose more than 30 percent. > > "All types combined, the incidence of cancer in the U.S. rose 49.3 > percent between 1950 and 1991. This is the longest reliable view > we have available. If lung cancer is excluded, overall incidence still > rose by 35 percent. Or, to express these figures in another way: at > midcentury a cancer diagnosis was the expected fate of about 25 > percent of Americans...while today, about 40 percent of us (38.3 > percent of women and 48.2 percent of men) will contract the > disease sometime within our lifespans. Cancer is now the second > leading cause of death overall...More of the overall upsurge has > occurred in the past two decades than in the previous two. > > "...[W]hile smoking remains the largest single known preventable > cause of cancer, the majority of cancers cannot be traced back to > cigarettes. Indeed, many of the cancers now exhibiting swift rates > of increase--cancers of the brain, bone marrow, lymph nodes, skin, > and testicles, for example--are not related to smoking. Testicular > cancer is now the most common cancer to strike men in their > twenties and thirties. Among young men both here and in Europe, > it has doubled in frequency during the past two decades. These > increases cannot be attributed to improved diagnostic practices. > Brain cancer rates have risen particularly among the elderly. > Between 1973 and 1991, brain cancers among all Americans rose > 25 percent. Those over sixty-five suffered a 54 percent rise. > "Mortality and incidence do not always track each other. No > cancers are increasing in mortality while decreasing in incidence, > but several cancers have increased in incidence even as their death > rates have declined due to more effective treatments. According to > SEER data, these include cancers of the ovary, testicle, colon and > rectum, bladder, and thyroid. There are eight cancers whose > incidence and mortality are both on the decline: those of the > stomach, pancreas, larynx, mouth and pharynx, cervix and uterus, > as well as Hodgkin's disease and leukemia... > "However, these modest gains are swamped by the cancers > that show both increasing incidence and increasing mortality: > cancers of the brain, liver, breast, kidney, prostate, esophagus, > skin (melanoma), bone marrow (multiple myeloma), and lymph > (non-Hodgkins lymphoma) have all escalated over the past twenty > years and show long-term increases that can be traced back at > least forty years. > "...'Explanations for these increases do not exist,' according to > Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician and leading public health > researcher...Clarification about carcinogins, Landrigan believes, > requires an environmental line of inquiry: > 'The possible contribution to recent cancer trends of the substantial > worldwide increases in chemical production that have ocurred since > World War II (and the resulting increases in human exposure to > toxic chemicals in the environment) has not been adequately > assessed. It needs to be systematically evaluated.'" > > "I am struck...by the symmetry between Landrigan's recommended > course of action and an observation made thirty years earlier by > two senior scientists at the National Cancer Institute, Wilhelm > Hueper and W.C. Conway: 'Cancers of all types and all causes > display even under already existing conditions, all the > characteristics of an epidemic in slow motion.'...And yet the > possible relationship between cancer and what Hueper and > Conway called 'the growing chemicalization of the human economy' > has not been pursued in any systematic, exhaustive way. > > "...The rise in cancer incidence over calendar time is one line of > evidence that implicates environmental factors. The increase in > cancer incidence among successive generations is another. A > third line of evidence comes from a close cosideration of the > cancers that exhibit particularly rapid rates of increase. If we > restrict our view to these cancers, what patterns emerge? > > "...Melanoma accounts for only 5 percent of all skin cancers, but it > is the most dangerous kind, accounting for 75 percent of skin > cancer deaths. The U.S. incidence of melanoma rose nearly 350 > percent between 1950 and 1991, and mortality rose by 157 > percent. Between 1982 and 1989 alone, melanoma incidence > jumped 83 percent...The accelerating incidence of melanoma > means exposure to ultraviolet radiation is probably increasing. This > could be happening for two reasons. First, more people are > spending more time in the sun. Second, the sunlight to which we > are exposed contains more ultraviolet rays. > > "...While the incidence of Hodgkin's disease has declined modestly > over the past two decades, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma has shot up-- > approximately tripling in incidence since 1950. This increase is > evident in both sexes and within all age groups except the very > young...Lymphomas do seem to be consistently associated with > exposure to synthetic chemicals, especially a class of pesticides > known as phenoxy herbicides [including 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, and the > combination of these two, Agent Orange]. > > "...Multiple myeloma is also associated with exposure to a variety > of chemicals--metals, rubber, paint, industrial solvents, and > petroleum. Farmers and agricultural workers exposed to > pesticides and herbicides have higher rates of multiple myeloma > than the general population. Multiple myeloma is on the rise in all > major industrialized countries. But the parallel increase among > both sexes argues against a purely occupational cause. > According to one researcher who has examined multinational > mortality trends, the patterns of multiple myeloma among > generational cohorts suggest a general environmental exposure of > some kind, common to all industrialized countries... > > "...The spatial features of cancer's occurrence around the globe > clearly belie the notion that cancer is a random misfortune. > Industrialized countries have disproportianately more cancers than > countries with little or no industry (after adjusting for age and > population size). One-half of all the world's cancers occur among > people living in industrialized countries, even though we are only > one-fifth of the world's population. Closely tracking industrialization > are breast cancer rates, which are highest in North America and > northern Europe, intermediate in southern Europe and Latin > America, and lowest in Asia and Africa. Breast cancer rates are > thirty times higher in the U.S. than in parts of Africa, for example. > Breast cancer incidence in the U.S. is five times higher than it is in > Japan, though this gap is rapidly narrowing. Of all the world's > nations, Japan has the most rapidly rising rate of breast cancer. > > "Because we have no nationwide cancer registry, we also have no > definitive geography of cancer incidence in the U.S. The National > Cancer Institute has, however, published the two-volume 'Atlas of > U.S. Cancer Mortality among Whites and Nonwhites: 1950-1980'-- > in essence, cancer death maps. Areas of high mortality are > colored in scarlet, fuchsia, and orange; areas of unusually low > mortality are painted deep blue... > "Death from cancer is not randomly distributed in the U.S. > Shades of red consistently light up the northeast coast, the Great > Lakes area, and the mouth of the Mississippi River. For all > cancers combined, these are the areas of highest mortality; they > are also the areas of the most intense industrial activity." > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail --------------029800D6E7171972F7279B73 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="laddb.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Brent Ladd Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="laddb.vcf" begin:vcard n:Ladd;Brent tel;fax:765/496-1356 tel;work:765/496-6331 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/safewater/farmasyst/index.htm org:Purdue Cooperative Extension Service;Agricultural & Biological Engineering adr:;;1146 ABE Building;West Lafayette;IN;47907-1146; version:2.1 email;internet:laddb@ecn.purdue.edu title:Environmental Assessment Coordinator note:"When a man loses sight of his past he loses the ability to go forward intelligently."- Anonymous fn:Brent Ladd end:vcard --------------029800D6E7171972F7279B73-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 14:33:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09296 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10273 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:09:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10269 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FN300HADUELTM@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:06:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:46:05 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: Geneticist Sows Plot to Kill Lawn Mowers To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1266319091==_ma============" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 789 --============_-1266319091==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy, all-- Thought this latest exercise in GM science fiction/fantasy might=20 interest some of you. Note that one justification for pursuing this=20 particular product is that you "would need less fertilizer" for your=20 model suburban yard. Needs. Ya gotta love em. p m ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Geneticist Sows Plot to Kill Lawn Mowers > > David Lazarus, Chronicle Staff Writer > =20 > Tuesday,=20 >December 21, 1999 > > > Michael Neff was out mowing his lawn in Southern > California when inspiration struck. > > It occurred to him that this tiresome chore, the bane > of suburbanites everywhere, could be virtually > eliminated by creating a genetically engineered > ``dwarf grass'' that would grow much more slowly > than ordinary grass. > > Now, more than a year later, Neff and other > scientists have succeeded in isolating a gene that > limits stem growth in plants. This ``dwarf gene'' may > allow growers to restrict the height of grass, trees > and other plants. > > The findings were detailed in a paper published in > yesterday's edition of the Proceedings of the > National Academy of Sciences. > > ``This is incredibly exciting,'' Neff said in a > telephone interview from St. Louis, where he is now > an assistant professor of plant genetics at > Washington University. ``It's a huge step forward.'' > > At the time of the research, Neff was working as a > postdoctoral fellow at the Salk Institute for > Biological Studies in San Diego. > > ``You're not ever going to be able to create a plant > that doesn't need pruning,'' he said. ``Plants need to > grow to thrive. > > ``But if you have something that grows slower, you > would have to spend less time maintaining it and use > less fertilizer.'' > > Along with creating a dark green lawn that hardly > ever needs to be mowed, Neff said the dwarf gene > potentially could lead to pint-size fruit trees capable > of maximizing output in limited areas or stronger, > tighter timber for the building industry. > > The key word here is ``potentially.'' Although the > gene in question could theoretically be introduced to > various types of plants, Neff said, scientists have yet > to see how it would affect grass or trees. > > ``We still have a lot of experiments to do,'' he said. > ``But we are right on the edge of a tremendous > amount of things that could happen.'' > > Neff declined to speculate on when such genetically > engineered plants could be developed. But when > pressed, he said a no-mow grass could be > concocted in a year. > > Be that as it may, there are doubters, especially as > far as new-and-improved grass is concerned. > > ``I would like to see the end product,'' said Ali > Harivandi, an environmental horticulturist at a > University of California plant research facility in > Alameda. ``I have a suspicion this might not work.'' > > His chief concern is that a slow-growing grass > would not accommodate the wear and tear of foot > traffic. > > ``When it is damaged, it would not grow back,'' > Harivandi said. ``When a lawn is damaged from > playing football, for example, it will recover by > growing back.'' > > He is also worried that dwarf grass would have an > unusually shallow root system, making it more > susceptible to injury. This is the case with strains of > slow-growing grass that have been bred over the > years by horticulturists. > > But Joanne Chory, the Salk Institute professor cited > as ``senior author'' on the dwarf-gene paper (Neff is > ``first author''), said the genetically altered plants > may not be prone to such setbacks. > > ``It may be possible to make short or dwarf plants > that are completely normal in every other way,'' she > said. > > Salk researchers took a tobacco plant that would > normally grow to six feet tall and engineered it to > reach maturity at just 12 inches. > > A hardy, long-lasting grass that might normally grow > to 12 inches could be limited in theory to mature at > just a fraction of this amount -- a mere two inches, > say. > > This would be bad news for professional gardeners. > Some might find their workload significantly > reduced as homeowners rush to plant > low-maintenance lawns. > > ``If you're strictly a mow-and-blow type of person, > this could cause problems,'' said Robert Scudder, > who runs a San Francisco landscaping firm and > serves on the board of the San Francisco > Professional Gardeners Association. > > ``But I think that highly qualified gardeners would > have a lot of other stuff to be involved in,'' Scudder > said, noting that there are hedges to be pruned and > trees to be trimmed. ``Mowing lawns isn't the only > thing we do.'' > > Even so, what if the dwarf gene could be used to > create hedges that do not need to be pruned, or > trees that require no trimming? > > Scudder dismissed such speculation. First, he does > not think such a brave new world of landscaping > ever will emerge. Moreover, he said professional > gardeners, like plants, will adapt to changing > circumstances. > > ``There's always going to be a need for someone > out there caring for plants,'' he said. ``Even with > bioengineering, there's always going to be a need > for a gardener.'' > > As for Neff, who played such an instrumental role in > a development that could dramatically alter the > lifestyles of homeowners the world over, might a > Nobel Prize be in his future? > > It's way too early for such talk, Neff said. But, he > added, ``I'm sure someone on the committee mows > their own lawn.'' > > =A91999 San Francisco Chronicle Page A3 --============_-1266319091==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy, all-- Thought this latest exercise in GM science fiction/fantasy might interest some of you. Note that one justification for pursuing this particular product is that you "would need less fertilizer" for your model suburban yard. Needs. Ya gotta love em. p m ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Times_New_RomanGeneticist Sows Plot to Kill Lawn Mowers David Lazarus, Chronicle Staff Writer =20 Tuesday, December 21, 1999 Michael Neff was out mowing his lawn in Southern California when inspiration struck. It occurred to him that this tiresome chore, the bane of suburbanites everywhere, could be virtually eliminated by creating a genetically engineered ``dwarf grass'' that would grow much more slowly than ordinary grass. Now, more than a year later, Neff and other scientists have succeeded in isolating a gene that limits stem growth in plants. This ``dwarf gene'' may allow growers to restrict the height of grass, trees and other plants. The findings were detailed in a paper published in yesterday's edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. ``This is incredibly exciting,'' Neff said in a telephone interview from St. Louis, where he is now an assistant professor of plant genetics at Washington University. ``It's a huge step forward.'' At the time of the research, Neff was working as a postdoctoral fellow at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego. ``You're not ever going to be able to create a plant that doesn't need pruning,'' he said. ``Plants need to grow to thrive. ``But if you have something that grows slower, you would have to spend less time maintaining it and use less fertilizer.'' Along with creating a dark green lawn that hardly ever needs to be mowed, Neff said the dwarf gene potentially could lead to pint-size fruit trees capable of maximizing output in limited areas or stronger, tighter timber for the building industry. The key word here is ``potentially.'' Although the gene in question could theoretically be introduced to various types of plants, Neff said, scientists have yet to see how it would affect grass or trees. ``We still have a lot of experiments to do,'' he said. ``But we are right on the edge of a tremendous amount of things that could happen.'' Neff declined to speculate on when such genetically engineered plants could be developed. But when pressed, he said a no-mow grass could be concocted in a year. Be that as it may, there are doubters, especially as far as new-and-improved grass is concerned. ``I would like to see the end product,'' said Ali Harivandi, an environmental horticulturist at a University of California plant research facility in Alameda. ``I have a suspicion this might not work.'' His chief concern is that a slow-growing grass would not accommodate the wear and tear of foot traffic. ``When it is damaged, it would not grow back,'' Harivandi said. ``When a lawn is damaged from playing football, for example, it will recover by growing back.'' He is also worried that dwarf grass would have an unusually shallow root system, making it more susceptible to injury. This is the case with strains of slow-growing grass that have been bred over the years by horticulturists. But Joanne Chory, the Salk Institute professor cited as ``senior author'' on the dwarf-gene paper (Neff is ``first author''), said the genetically altered plants may not be prone to such setbacks. ``It may be possible to make short or dwarf plants that are completely normal in every other way,'' she said. Salk researchers took a tobacco plant that would normally grow to six feet tall and engineered it to reach maturity at just 12 inches. A hardy, long-lasting grass that might normally grow to 12 inches could be limited in theory to mature at just a fraction of this amount -- a mere two inches, say. This would be bad news for professional gardeners. Some might find their workload significantly reduced as homeowners rush to plant low-maintenance lawns. ``If you're strictly a mow-and-blow type of person, this could cause problems,'' said Robert Scudder, who runs a San Francisco landscaping firm and serves on the board of the San Francisco Professional Gardeners Association. ``But I think that highly qualified gardeners would have a lot of other stuff to be involved in,'' Scudder said, noting that there are hedges to be pruned and trees to be trimmed. ``Mowing lawns isn't the only thing we do.'' Even so, what if the dwarf gene could be used to create hedges that do not need to be pruned, or trees that require no trimming? Scudder dismissed such speculation. First, he does not think such a brave new world of landscaping ever will emerge. Moreover, he said professional gardeners, like plants, will adapt to changing circumstances. ``There's always going to be a need for someone out there caring for plants,'' he said. ``Even with bioengineering, there's always going to be a need for a gardener.'' As for Neff, who played such an instrumental role in a development that could dramatically alter the lifestyles of homeowners the world over, might a Nobel Prize be in his future? It's way too early for such talk, Neff said. But, he added, ``I'm sure someone on the committee mows their own lawn.'' =A91999 San Francisco Chronicle Page A3 Times_New_Roman --============_-1266319091==_ma============-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 16:33:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11277 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22111 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:18:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from sunshine.hcr.net (sunshine.hcr.net [208.240.246.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22107 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (danva178.hcr.net [208.242.124.193]) by sunshine.hcr.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA30707; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:18:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991221161609.0085f100@ConnRiver.net> X-Sender: graceg@ConnRiver.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:16:09 -0500 To: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com From: Grace Gershuny Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <385FB22E.7D6451E5@sprintmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 790 Dear Alex, I don't think the intent here was to paint all organic farmers as rotenone junkies, just make the point that the stuff is permitted to them in case of 'need.' There is no doubt that very few ever use it, but there are some, and I've never heard of anyone being decertified for it (although they may get conditions on certification). Incidentally, my take is that the more stringent the organic requirements, the easier the chemical salesmen will breathe--they know the competition will never amount to more than a tiny niche market. It isn't that I believe that it isn't possible to farm without that stuff--I know it is. But the skills are too different and the risk is too great for most farmers to jump in without some kind of fall-back. If the goal is to limit the market to those who have already developed their systems, it will never pose a threat to the dominant methods. Best wishes, Grace Gershuny former USDA/NOP staff At 12:00 PM 12/21/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us wrote: > >> I don't think we are unique among experienced organic growers in using very >> little intervention in pest management. Please quit equating use of broad >> spectrum botanicals >> with organic growers - it doesn't always fit, any more than bashing >> conventional farmers always fits. > >Alison, > >Thanks for speaking up. I, too, use no pesticides. I think what happens is >people who think you have to use biocides to farm incorrectly assume that >organic farmers use botanical biocides. This is not the case. > >Organic agriculture strives towards complimentary agriculture- working with >nature and encouraging a balance of above and below ground ecosystems. My >experience is that very few organic farmers merely switch from synthetics to >botanicals. This may be a first step in transitioning for some, but is not the >rule. > >I repeat a post from Cathy Greene (thanks, Cathy) in support of this: >"Under 6 percent of the approximately 300 respondents to USDA's survey of >certified organic vegetable growers in the U.S. reported using rotonone in 1994, > >and under 6 percent reported using rotonone mixtures. The results of the survey > >were published in the American Journal of Alternative Agriculture, Vol. 13, No. >2, 1998 in an article titled, 'Organic vegetable production in the U.S.: >Certified growers and their practices.' " > >Organic farmers have shown that food crops can be grown with the same or more >production per acre, with the same or less lost to pests, without using biocides >or NPK fertilizers. Some day others may wake up to these facts. > >The problem lies in the fact that sustainable and/or organic techniques reduce >or eliminate most of the product that can be sold to farmers. The agriculture >supply companies won't readily give up their lucrative (but destructive) markets >or change the way they do business readily. > >You can see the fear in their eyes from the threat of increasing organic >production through their disinformation campaigns. These remind me of our modern >political ads. I wonder who learned from whom? > >Alex > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 16:51:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11467 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00760 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:30:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00756 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from uoguelph.ca ([128.146.210.212]) by mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05639 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:30:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385FFF4D.41B4E77D@uoguelph.ca> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:29:33 -0600 From: "E. Ann Clark" Organization: University of Guelph X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: query on "Meta" for slug and snail control References: <3.0.5.32.19991221161609.0085f100@ConnRiver.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 791 Folks: I am passing on this query for a colleague. He has a 1997 brochure from a Swiss company "Lonza" which markets a product called META (which is metaldehyde; formula C8H16O4), for use in a wide range of crops. They state in the pamphlet: ""Due to the fact that META is not harming beneficial organisms like earthworms and carabid beetles, it is ideal for use in Integrated Pest Management production systems. It is officially approved by the EU to be fit for use in organic farming." Can one of our European friends pls check and confirm for me if this is true? Is META approved for use in organic farming in Europe? Thanks in advance. Ann To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 17:25:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12028 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06653 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:02:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cobalt5-ps.global.net.uk (cobalt5-ps.global.net.uk [195.147.248.165]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06533 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from p6fs10a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.138.112] helo=1) by cobalt5-ps.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 120XM3-0004Xo-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:02:04 -0800 From: "Alan Sloan" To: Subject: RE:mineral and vitamin content of vegetables Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:06:41 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <199912211600.LAA04833@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 792 Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content of vegatables since 1900 or so? I met someone socially the other day who asserted that the content of nutritious matter in vegetables had taken a nosedive since the introduction of artificial fertilisers. Alan Sloan To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 23:37:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16468 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17129 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17125 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-47ppp64.epix.net [209.74.47.64]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id XAA13983; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38605410.DF0BE86C@epix.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:31:13 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Grace Gershuny CC: waldenfarm@sprintmail.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Low-risk pesticides ... References: <3.0.5.32.19991221161609.0085f100@ConnRiver.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 793 Grace Gershuny wrote: > I don't think the intent here was to paint all organic farmers as rotenone > junkies, just make the point that the stuff is permitted to them in case of > 'need.' There is no doubt that very few ever use it...... you have perceived correctly. Alison Wiediger wrote: > Only in the greenhouse, which is a closed > and somewhat artificial system, do we ever have a large enough problem for > intervention, and we usually use a soap solution. is the soap solution considered a natural insecticide or is it a deterent? what is the toxicity rating? I wouldn't want to drink the soap solution, but I don't know if it would negativly affect me or not. You mentioned you have a market garden. I commend you for that, but could you use the same practices and be economically viable on a scale 10 times bigger? (I'm not alluding that bigger is better, it's just that there are not enough folks who what to grow food on the scale of a market garden to meet the needs of all the eaters.) I farm 175 acres (60 vegetables) but I'm sure I could do it organically on 10 acres. Bluestem Associates wrote: > they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative > impact on earthworms? does Bordeaux hurt earthworms? I'm asking these questions not as way to change organic regs, but as a basis to objectively look at what practises are the most sustainable and the least detrimental to the environment. I think there are some manmade imputs that can aid us in being a better stewart of the soil the some of the natural ones. Organic agriculture is a good system, but it is not nessesarily the most sustainable in all it's aspects. Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 21 23:37:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16471 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16719 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:21:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16700 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-29.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.29]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA27556 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:21:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3860527C.67A0@eclipse.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:28 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Mineral Content of Foods Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 Alan, You wrote: >Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content > of vegetables since 1900 or so? Try Rodale, parent of "Organic Gardening" in Emmaus, Penn. They reported (15 - 20 months ago) a great loss of minerals in broccoli grown in today's soils compared to that grown in the 40's (pre-war and pre-petro-pesticides). They made a clear argument that we have robbed the soil of natural minerals through pesticide and artificial fertilizers. While I might be leaving something out, short of erosion or run-off, I believe that the minerals would remain, it's just that the plant uptake might have changed. Or put another way, the minerals may be more readily available when the soil is healthy and alive but we have created "dead soil" through the use of chemicals. I know that potash contains potassium chloride a salt and that the chloride ion "kills" the soil (beneficial nematodes, mycelia cease to grow). Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 01:27:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17196 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24047 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:03:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24028 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-11-29.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.173]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA02368; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:05:15 -0500 Message-ID: <000801bf4c45$122c22c0$ad5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: , Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:23:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 If we take out all the minerals but only replace NPK why wouldn't mineral levels go down? Also, what if the only factor in selecting new varieties is yeild with no regard for quality? USDA has the mineral data on food but good luck getting ahold of it. I've tried with no luck. I was told it was just a conspiracy but she wouldn't send data to show me. That was after I was transferred about 15 times. We have a huge food quality problem out here and they know it. I'd love to see one of the investigative tv shows get ahold of the real data. It would make a good case for a whole new paradigm than industrialised agriculture. I wonder why they don't want that? Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp -----Original Message----- From: Dave Miller To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:34 PM Subject: Mineral Content of Foods >Alan, > >You wrote: > >>Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content >> of vegetables since 1900 or so? > >Try Rodale, parent of "Organic Gardening" in Emmaus, Penn. They reported >(15 - 20 months ago) a great loss of minerals in broccoli grown in >today's soils compared to that grown in the 40's (pre-war and >pre-petro-pesticides). They made a clear argument that we have robbed >the soil of natural minerals through pesticide and artificial >fertilizers. > >While I might be leaving something out, short of erosion or run-off, I >believe that the minerals would remain, it's just that the plant uptake >might have changed. Or put another way, the minerals may be more readily >available when the soil is healthy and alive but we have created "dead >soil" through the use of chemicals. I know that potash contains >potassium chloride a salt and that the chloride ion "kills" the soil >(beneficial nematodes, mycelia cease to grow). > >Recycler Dave > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 01:33:13 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17241 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA25870 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:14:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25856 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-29.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.29]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA07402; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:13:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38606CDE.7E47@eclipse.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:17:02 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aquaponics , sanet , NY VEG , CJVG list Subject: Good Heavens is this where we are going? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 796 By PHILIP BRASHER WASHINGTON (December 20, 1999 5:42 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - Don't throw away the lawnmower yet, but scientists have found out a way to stunt the growth of grass and other plants and keep them greener longer by tinkering with a single gene. It could be a dream come true for suburbanites weary of the weekly mowing ritual. The gene regulates production of a steroid hormone that causes plants to grow, much the same way similar steroids work in animals. Scientists have now succeeded in manipulating the gene to create dwarf versions of standard plant species, according to research published Tuesday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. A tobacco plant that would normally grow 6 feet tall was engineered to mature at 12 inches by scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego. The same technique worked with the Arabidopsis plant, a member of the mustard family that, like tobacco, is frequently used in genetic studies. "It very much parallels the steroids in football players. Plants buff up on it," Joanne Chory, the Salk study's senior researcher, said of the newly manipulated plant gene. "If you do something ... so it isn't expressed, you get these little dwarfy guys." The dwarf versions are identical to the standard plants in every way but size, she said. Plant breeders have long searched for ways to slow the growth of grass to reduce maintenance on golf courses, as well as lawns and parks. But conventional breeding by cross-pollinating different varieties is far more time consuming and less exacting than engineering specific genes. Golf courses are sprayed with chemicals to slow grass growth, but they still must be mowed frequently. Tim Norris, the golf course superintendent at the Army-Navy Country Club in Fairfax, Va., likes the idea of slow-growing grass. "We're mowing every other day to try to keep conditions as good as we can," Norris said. "If we could have something that would cut down on the amount of mowing we do, it would be a great help. We could use our labor somewhere else." The plants the Salk Institute scientists used in their study are more similar to trees, so there may be difficulties in getting the technology to work with grass, said Andy Hamblin, a turf geneticist at the University of Illinois. But it's only a matter of time before scientists develop grass that only needs to be mowed once or twice a year, he said. Conventional varieties of grass take an average of 13 years to develop, and the latest breeds have reduced the number of mowings by only one or two times a year, he said. Gene-engineered grass also raises environmental questions. Dwarf plants could cross-pollinate with standard plants and stunt the growth of their offspring, Hamblin said. The federal government would have to approve any new varieties of grass and could limit their use to avoid such problems. Hamblin said the approval process for a biotech grass could take several years. As for its safety, the researchers said there should be no danger to children or animals from eating the grass, since it is essentially the same as conventional grass. Lawnmower manufacturers are not worried, at least for the time being. Even with a government seal of approval for biotech grass and its widespread availability on the market, homeowners are unlikely to go through the hassle of digging up their old turf and planting an entirely new yard. And many homeowners cut their grass regularly because they like the way it looks, said Don St. Dennis, a spokesman for The Toro Co., which makes Toro and Lawn Boy mowers. "It's not just the fact that it's long that makes it look like it needs to be mowed, but it's because individual blades of grass grow at different rates. Part of the reason people mow it is so that it has an even, uniform look to it," said St. Dennis. The steroid that the Salk researchers manipulated primarily regulates the growth of a plant's stems. It's release is ordinarily triggered by changes in light Chory said scientists expect eventually to be able to pinpoint and alter other genes that that control the growth of leaves and flowers, enabling them to regulate the appearance of an entire plant. -- Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 01:47:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17316 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00476 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:26:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.56.248]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00312 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from STEVED.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id AAA02616 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:26:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912220626.AAA02616@ncatark.uark.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Steve Diver" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:20:20 +0000 Subject: ATTRA Interns List 2000 now online Reply-to: steved@ncatark.uark.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 797 Greetings from ATTRA, on this Full Moon Winter Solstice! Since 1989, ATTRA has published an annual update to the Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships list. The Year 2000 edition is completed and now available in print and electronic formats. Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships http://www.attra.org/attra-rl/intern.html The ATTRA "Interns" list, as it is commonly known, is a popular networking tool for farmers and interns looking to make connections, and should be especially helpful as people make plans for the upcoming growing season in the new millenium. In this latest edition, roughly two dozen new farm listings have been acquired from the "Educational and Training Opportunities in Sustainable Agriculture" publication compiled by USDA's Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC). By cooperative agreement, ATTRA will in the future maintain this list of farm-based internships and AFSIC will focus on university-based programs. To contact AFSIC, go to http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/index.html The update is 71 pages long, with over 200 entries describing farms and training centers offering internships and apprenticeships in organic farming and sustainable agriculture. In addition, the Interns list provides an interesting glimpse into farm work and characteristics of small farm agriculture in the United States because the farm descriptions were written by the farmers themselves. As an example, several dozen farms in the list are now organized as CSA's. You can also read about CRAFT (Collaborative Regional Alliance for Farmer Training), which is a collection of twelve farms in the Northeastern states that offer fortnightly seminars accompanied by farm tours in addition to on-farm training received by the apprentices during the work week. Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships is compiled by Katherine Adam, ATTRA Information Specialist. Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas P.O. Box 3657 Fayetteville, AR 72702 1-800-346-9140 8:30am-4:30pm CST http://www.attra.org To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 02:05:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17396 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA07812 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:46:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from west.millennianet.com (west.millennianet.com [206.71.161.24]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07770 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (pm3-ppp-171-162.millennianet.com [206.71.171.162]) by west.millennianet.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA13404 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:46:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991221224848.008d7c70@popmail.millennianet.com> X-Sender: curly@popmail.millennianet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:48:48 -0800 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu From: "Donald W. Trotter" Subject: 74th Congess of the United States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 Mineral content in soils is directly related to mineral content in food. I believe that document 264 from the 74th congress in 1936 had something to say about this. I'm not too hot on the commercialization of this document by colloidal mineral supplement manufacturers, but it appears that Greg and Lei are right about the "coverup?" Didn't we discuss this topic two years ago? I thought I remembered something about this a while back. Alan it was good to see you on Sanet again. I've missed our chats and I missed you last fall in Scotland. I think thorough study of this document may shed some light on some mineral studies done around that time. Noel, Don To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 05:13:53 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18347 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA00670 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:57:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA00564 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-02-108.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.108]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id EAA17990; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:53:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38607F4A.5B72@eclipse.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:35:38 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alty, Al" , sanet , NY VEG , CJVG list , aquaponics@townsqr.com Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2 References: <385EC6D6.2148@eclipse.net> <385FA648.E1D31C88@who.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 799 Jim Sealy Jr wrote: > > Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring > because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the > volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world. > Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give > up chemicals and GE? > Jim, I might be way off base here but last I checked, provisions to feed the world are not the problem, food distribution and politics are. We have the land space to feed the world only most of it goes toward feeding cattle, a serious mismanagement of said land use. Without the cattle (used for meat and milk) we could use the grains to feed billions and ALL without a genetic engineering need. As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding animals for slaughter. Fish farming in the aquaponic sense seems a much saner route. Anything that is a fairly closed loop works for me. While I choose to generally avoid animal products/derivitives I do understand that the world needs to eat AND that not all folks feel as I do. When you ask me to believe that we must "plow under the world" I sense that we either have a population explosion in which case I state that we must be prepared to die like all other species on the planet, or modify our reproduction mechanisms or at least temper our diet. I find the latter the easiest though birth control is also possible short of pissing off some religious beliefs. I respect and expect the opinions of those who can convince me otherwise. Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 05:57:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18542 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA14234 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:37:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from trolley.tesco.net (trolly.tesco.net [194.73.73.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA14175 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [62.172.21.70] (helo=elaine) by trolley.tesco.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 120j99-00039Y-00 for Sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:37:31 +0000 Message-ID: <001f01bf4c68$4082ffe0$4615ac3e@elaine> From: "Paddy Doherty" To: "Sanet-mg-digest" Subject: Meta for slug control Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:34:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 800 Response to Ann: Soil Association Standards as of March 1999 "Prohibited e) slug and snail killers based on metaldehyde or aluminium" An old UKROFS Standard (revision 2) lists as allowed: "metaldehyde used as a tape or within a trap" but this may have been amended since. Paddy To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 09:47:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20693 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03227 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:22:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03223 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.120]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:30:50 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:22:22 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 801 On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:28 -0500, Dave Miller wrote: >Try Rodale, parent of "Organic Gardening" in Emmaus, Penn. They reported >(15 - 20 months ago) a great loss of minerals in broccoli grown in >today's soils compared to that grown in the 40's (pre-war and >pre-petro-pesticides). They made a clear argument that we have robbed >the soil of natural minerals through pesticide and artificial >fertilizers. I guess I have to come back to this topic again. Study after study has shown _no_significant_or_consistent_difference_ between organic produce and conventional counterparts. There are a couple of possible major conclusions from those 20+ years of organic vs conventional studies. a) Mineral content of *organic* produce has been declining along with that of conventional ... or b) Organic food was of lower mineral content to begin with and conventional food has come *down* to the level of organic. Rodale's "clear argument" is therefore a complete crock as far as I'm concerned, until somebody shows me significant and consistent numbers to the contrary...ie, a) that a wide range of organic produce, grown in several regions, has significantly higher mineral content than conventional b) that difference is consistently maintained for several years Simply not using synthetic pesticides and artificial fertilizers does *not* make someone a good farmer, and it certainly doesn't guarantee that their crops will be of better nutrient quality than those of a conventional grower. There are some superb organic farmers out there --- better farmers than 95% of all conventional growers. My point is that they are *also* better than 95% of all *organic* growers, too. GOOD growers produce mineral-rich food. There are good growers, mediocre growers, and lousy growers, and whether they are certified organic or not has little (if any) bearing on which category they fall into. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 10:08:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21030 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07461 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from exchange3.rodalepress.com (exchange3.rodale.com [206.245.129.44]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07441 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by csc_msss_01.rodalepress.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:44:29 -0500 Message-ID: <39226794CC03D3118FB50008C79181FA02F9624C@exchange2.rodalepress.com> From: "Erney, Diana" To: "'sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: vitamin and mineral content of food Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 Here's the link to the recent article which appeared in Organic Gardening magazine regarding the decline of nutrients in the US food supply: http://www.organicgardening.com/library/novdec_watchdogusda.html I hope you will find it helpful. Diana Erney Sr. Research Associate Rodale Organic Gardening Books To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 10:10:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21070 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07335 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub1.lvs.dupont.com (mhub1.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07297 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub1.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:45:36 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:45:23 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:45:22 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A00A6@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'sgroff@epix.net'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Earthworms and copper (was: low risk...) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:45:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 803 Steve, > does Bordeaux hurt earthworms? I found a few abstracts on copper toxicity to earthworms. I'll send them directly to you (anyone else, let me know if you want them). In one of the studies, they grew worms in soil with 242 ppm copper for 112 days to dose them. That's quite a bit. How much do you put on with an application of bordeaux or other fixed copper, an ounce or so as metallic? Keep in mind that 242 ppm represents around 500 pounds in the acre-plow-layer. I am sure the danger is greatest in light textured and acid soil. Heavy metals are not degraded in the soil like modern fungicides, and long-term use of copper is probably not a good idea. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 10:10:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21075 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07318 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07263 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from THE-SPA.COM ([204.97.227.3]) by THE-SPA.COM with ESMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 1065300 ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:49 -0500 Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.179]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 1065000 ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:27 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991222094803.007ddb50@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:48:03 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: RE:mineral and vitamin content of vegetables In-Reply-To: <199912212310.SAA00782@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 While I am an organic gardener, I posted a similar question a while ago because I too was told that "organic vegetables have more nutrients" than conventional ones. After many responses from the group it became clear that this was an old saw that had been passed around for years, and that the only measurable difference between organic and conventional vegetables was that organic had more dry matter. While I would welcome information supporting the claims we have heard, I think advocates of organic production need to emphasize the clear benefits of the practice: soil stewardship, safer for farmers and farmworkers and not laced with chemicals for consumers. Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 10:37:26 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21433 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18509 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:11:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub1.lvs.dupont.com (mhub1.lvs.dupont.com [206.241.18.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18453 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub3.lvs.dupont.com by mhub1.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:10:56 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by mhub3.lvs.dupont.com with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:10:37 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:10:36 -0600 Message-Id: <8FEE1BDA0910D111BEB500805F1999C7021A00A8@vela.phibred.com> From: "Wilson, Dale" To: "'recycler@eclipse.net'" Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Mineral Content of Foods Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:10:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 Dave, > Try Rodale, parent of "Organic Gardening" in Emmaus, Penn. > They reported (15 - 20 months ago) a great loss of minerals > in broccoli grown in today's soils compared to that grown in > the 40's (pre-war and pre-petro-pesticides). They made a clear > argument that we have robbed the soil of natural minerals > through pesticide and artificial fertilizers. Keep in mind that analytical methods change over time, and small changes in method can affect results. Methods today are easier and more accurate than in the 40's. Making comparisons across large expanses of time or space is always unreliable. For example, just letting the vegetables wilt before testing would increase mineral content by weight (by reducing water content). Studies that use a local control (more-or-less side-by-side production) are far more reliable, and should always over-rule results like those presented by Rodale. Those folks at Rodale should know better. Dale To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 10:39:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21459 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19587 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:17:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us (kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us [162.114.136.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19555 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Received: by kdemailn1.kde.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:21:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: mineral and vitamin content of vegetables Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:04:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 I agree. In our sales direct to consumer, and at the Farmers' Market, we are often asked "does it taste better because it's organic?". We always answer, "Why don't you try it and let us know? ". Our produce probably will taste better than most at our market. Most of it is from a wholesaler in the closest large city, being resold, and resold, and resold until it's totally unsellable or sold out. So ours is grown well, and more importantly for the consumers' taste, fresh. We tell people who ask, exactly how we grow our produce, but we absolutely do not make claims for healthier, tastier, better - that's for the customer to decide. It works for us. Alison in Kentucky > ---------- > From: Mark[SMTP:markl@buylocalfood.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 8:48 AM > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE:mineral and vitamin content of vegetables > > While I would welcome informationsupporting the claims we have heard, I > think advocates of organic production need to emphasize the clear benefits > of the practice: soil stewardship, safer for farmers and farmworkers and > not laced with chemicals for consumers. > > Mark > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 11:03:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21933 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21412 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:29:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21408 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:29:27 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.134]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:29:27 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991222092849.008b0ae0@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:49 -0600 To: Subject: sewage sludge fertilizer to get dioxin limits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 807 >From http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-21-09.html. Mike Miller EPA PROPOSES LIMITS ON DIOXIN IN BIOSOLIDS WASHINGTON, DC, December 21, 1999 (ENS) - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is proposing to set a standard for dioxin levels in biosolids. Biosolids are treated sewage sludge - the byproduct of municipal wastewater treatment - and can be recycled and applied as a fertilizer, disposed of in surface disposal units or incinerated. The EPA’s proposal sets a limit of 300 parts per trillion toxic equivalents for dioxins in biosolids that are recycled and applied to the land as fertilizer. Facilities preparing biosolids for land application would also be required to follow new monitoring, record keeping and reporting requirements for dioxins in biosolids that are to be land applied. Based on risk assessment results, the proposed rule does not contain additional limits for dioxins in biosolids that are being placed in landfills or incinerated. In February 1993, EPA set limits for metals, pathogens and total hydrocarbons for land application, surface disposal and incineration of biosolids. The Clean Water Act also requires regulation for pollutants not regulated under other rules, such as dioxin, a toxic byproduct of waste incineration and chemical and pesticide manufacturing. Dioxin has been linked to cancer and birth defects, and was an ingredient of the defoliant Agent Orange. The new biosolids proposal was signed on December 15, and published in the Federal Register. EPA will take comment for 60 days following publication in the Federal Register. A fact sheet and a pre-publication version of the Federal Register notice are available at: http://www.epa.gov/OST/standards, or by calling 1-800-490-9198. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 11:34:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22569 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02977 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:57:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02944 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:57:09 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.137]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:57:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991222095633.008b1510@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:56:33 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 >USDA has the mineral data on food but good luck getting ahold of it. I've >tried with no luck. I was told it was just a conspiracy but she wouldn't >send data to show me. Greg, thanks for jogging my memory. I have some of the data you mentioned that I got from the US Gov't Printing Office in Chicago when I lived in that neck of the woods (or tollways). For those of you interested in these publications you can contact your closest printing office or US Government Printing Office 401 South State Street Chicago, IL sorry don't have the zipper but your PO will. or call 312-353-5133 The publication I got was the 1989 Supplement entitled Composition of Foods Raw, Processed, Prepared. It goes with the Agriculture Handbook Number 8 from the Human Nutrition Information Service. This publication has several areas of analysis. Proximate Minerals - 9 listed Vitamins -9 listed Lipids profile - sat. mon and poly from 4:0 to 22:6 individually Amino acids At the time I got the supplement, the Handbook #8 was not available but that may have changed or you local university library should have it or you may be able to get it from the Ag college or Home Economics Department especially if you don't let them know you're a troublemaker for the "conspiracy". ;>) Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 11:53:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22898 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16109 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:36:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lisa.csj.net (root@lisa.csj.net [12.29.20.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16083 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from donna (jack-dialup-22-32.csj.net [12.29.22.32]) by lisa.csj.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18963 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:36:27 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Donna Fezler" To: Subject: RE: Mineral Content of Foods-www Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:32:50 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01bf4c9a$3392da80$e6c8fea9@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991222095633.008b1510@pcsia.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 809 Try http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/software/software.html on the National Agricultural library site http://www.nal.usda.gov/ Donna Fezler GCR Jacksonville, IL http://www.rhealiving.com - To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 11:53:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22917 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15555 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:33:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15551 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991222163346.ZFNU1336.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:33:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3860FEAE.F02353BD@home.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:39:10 -0800 From: William Evans Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: mineral content- organic is better Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 810 >Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content > of vegetables since 1900 or so? The Sanet archives contain a number of posts relating to the nutritional quality of organic foods. In addition to references previously posted, here are three more sources: 1. "The Healing Power of Minerals, Special Nutrients and Trace Elements" by Paul Bergner (1997, Prima Publishing, Rocklin, CA) includes USDA figures that show a decline in mineral and vitamin content of several fruits and vegetables between 1914, 1963, and 1992. Table 1 is a summary of mineral decreases in fruits and vegetables over a 30-year period, adapted from Bergner's book. Table 1. Average changes in the mineral content of some fruits and vegetables*, 1963-1992 Mineral Average % Change Calcium -29.82 Iron -32.00 Magnesium -21.08 Phosphorus -11.09 Potassium -6.48 * Fruits and vegetables measured: oranges, apples, bananas, carrots, potatoes, corn, tomatoes, celery, romaine lettuce, broccoli, iceberg lettuce, collard greens, and chard 2. In England, Anne Marie-Mayer compared food composition over a 50-year period using data from the UK Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF). Her study, "Historical Changes in the Mineral Content of Fruits and Vegetables" was presented at the Agricultural Production and Nutrition conference held at Tufts University School of Nutrition Science and Policy on March 19-21, 1997. Table 2, adapted from Marie-Mayer's paper, summarizes the average ratio of nutrient content and dry matter of 20 vegetables and 20 fruits. A ratio of 0.81 for Ca, for example, means that over an approximately 50-year period the average content of calcium in vegetables has declined to 81% of the original level. Table 2. Average ratio of mineral content and dry matter (new/old) for vegetables and 20 fruits* Ca Mg Fe Cu Na K P D.M. Vegetable ratio 0.81* 0.65* 0.78 0.19* 0.57* 0.86 0.94 0.97 Fruit ratio 1.00 0.89* 0.68* 0.64* 0.90 0.80* 0.99 0.91 The symbol * indicates a statistical difference 3. In 1997 an extensive literature review was published: "A comparison of organically and conventionally grown foods -- results of a review of the relevant literature" by Katrin Woese, Dirk Lange, Christian Boess, and Klaus Werner Bogl. 1997. J. Sci. Food Agric. Vol. 74, 281-293. The authors are with: Federal Institute for Health Protection of Consumers and Veterinary Medicine, Division 2, Chemistry and Technology of Foods and Commodities, PO Box 330013, D-14191, Berlin, Germany. The review summarizes and evaluates the results of more than 150 investigations (published between 1926 and 1994) comparing the quality of conventionally and organically produced food, or of foods produced by different fertilization systems. The review is particularly noteworthy to those of us readers here in the United States, because it looks like better than 90% of the citations are from German-language journals and literature. This article does a good job of addressing the parameters used to evaluate differences item by item. One passage worth noting: "Only the more or less correlative results of the feed selection tests permit a general conclusion: animals distinguish between the foods on offer from the various agricultural systems and almost exclusively prefer organic produce." ============================================= As an aside, this is what Dr. William Albrecht emphasized in his work as a soil scientist at the University of Missouri; i.e., animal feeding trials to ascertain the true quality of feedstuffs, writing: "cows are capable chemists" "as a chemist by experience and survival, not by academic training, the cow led the nomad over fertile soils" "we need to start observing and judging the cow as she is a chemist on the hoof guiding her own nutrition" ============================================== Other findings: *Lower nitrates in organically produced or fertilised vegetables. *Lower pesticide residues in organic fruit and vegetables *Higher dry matter content in organic products *Feed experiments showed animals preferentially selected organic produce, but where fertility parameters and rearing performance were determined the results were contradictory To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 13:10:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24141 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10398 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10389 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23808; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14461; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:29 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp cc: recycler@eclipse.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods In-Reply-To: <000801bf4c45$122c22c0$ad5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote: > If we take out all the minerals but only replace NPK why wouldn't mineral > levels go down? Also, what if the only factor in selecting new varieties is > yeild with no regard for quality? > > USDA has the mineral data on food but good luck getting ahold of it. I've > tried with no luck. I was told it was just a conspiracy but she wouldn't > send data to show me. That was after I was transferred about 15 times. We Conspiracy, it obviously is. Interesting. We have paid for a product (with tax dollars) that we are not allowed to own. There are government sponsored products that taxpayers pay for that they have no business owning (national security) but this is not one of them. This is clearly a case of government-sponsored favoritism of one group of taxpaying (or not if they can get away with it) citizens over another. The mandatory organic certification debacle is another example of where this sort of gerrymandering can lead. It is also obvious than many skilled, dedicated American farmers could make extremely good use of data on the mineral content of food to help them grow better products for the American market. I regard _this_ as a major contribution to national security, particularly in terms of human health, strength and productivity. I hope this thread expolres this issue in great depth and those that need to read it have the opportunity to do so. Lawrence > have a huge food quality problem out here and they know it. I'd love to see > one of the investigative tv shows get ahold of the real data. It would make > a good case for a whole new paradigm than industrialised agriculture. I > wonder why they don't want that? > Best wishes, > Greg Gunthorp > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Miller > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Date: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:34 PM > Subject: Mineral Content of Foods > > > >Alan, > > > >You wrote: > > > >>Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content > >> of vegetables since 1900 or so? > > > >Try Rodale, parent of "Organic Gardening" in Emmaus, Penn. They reported > >(15 - 20 months ago) a great loss of minerals in broccoli grown in > >today's soils compared to that grown in the 40's (pre-war and > >pre-petro-pesticides). They made a clear argument that we have robbed > >the soil of natural minerals through pesticide and artificial > >fertilizers. > > > >While I might be leaving something out, short of erosion or run-off, I > >believe that the minerals would remain, it's just that the plant uptake > >might have changed. Or put another way, the minerals may be more readily > >available when the soil is healthy and alive but we have created "dead > >soil" through the use of chemicals. I know that potash contains > >potassium chloride a salt and that the chloride ion "kills" the soil > >(beneficial nematodes, mycelia cease to grow). > > > >Recycler Dave > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 13:13:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24200 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12401 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12396 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23943; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14598; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:53:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Bluestem Associates cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 812 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Bluestem Associates wrote: > Simply not using synthetic pesticides and artificial fertilizers does > *not* make someone a good farmer, and it certainly doesn't guarantee Certainly it does, because they are not spreading life-destroying long-lasting manmmade chemicals over the land. How could anyone say otherwise. The technicalities of manipulating crop production is another matter and secondary in importance. > that their crops will be of better nutrient quality than those of a > conventional grower. There are some superb organic farmers out there > --- better farmers than 95% of all conventional growers. My point is > that they are *also* better than 95% of all *organic* growers, too. > > GOOD growers produce mineral-rich food. There are good growers, > mediocre growers, and lousy growers, and whether they are certified > organic or not has little (if any) bearing on which category they fall > into. > > Bart > > > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 13:46:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24612 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24515 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:26:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24496 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.169.243.95 ([206.169.243.82]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23678; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:26:11 -0600 Message-ID: <38611B32.52E8@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:43:12 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Local communication and internet; was Re: GMO "Material Safety" Data Sheets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 Thanks John Lozier, harper for harmony, for writing: >The capacity for grass-roots communication by internet is phenomenal, >as SANET-MG demonstrates. and >But what seems lacking to me is a way to transfer this terrific global >conversation into our various local communities. on discussion of ideas on lists: >Folks are maybe shy or timid, perhaps remembering the flame-warfare of >a few years back. and >In the private sector, early on there was a web site (sunspot.com) >focused on Morgantown, but it went belly up. I’ve been heartened and >hopeful for efforts such as smallfarms.com, which ultimately can only >succeed if they hook up with real farmers and a viable local >cybercommunity. >What seems to be missing is this local cybercommunity. Colleagues and >other fellow citizens, all busy in their specialties, don’t take the >time to communicate with neighbors across their specialties. This is >what I think is needed. The number of farmers at smallfarms.com is now in the seventies! They’re real farmers who offer a variety of small farmer food to all of you. Check them out. In addition to “hooking up with real farmers,” John points out that our success as a marketing web site will depend on “a viable local cybercommunity,” and folks taking the time to communicate with people outside their specialties. John’s absolutely correct. smallfarms.com is off to a good start, and the small farmer - sustainable ag cybercommunity - is totally responsible for this through your writing, posting of messages, invitations, web site links to us, and urging farmers you know to sign up with smallfarms.com. But the fact of life on the internet is that we’ll need many, many farms on our pages to get to the next level. I’m doing a radio show in the next few days, my first to a general audience of consumers. The show’s host and producer found smallfarms.com on the internet. Now there’s one smallfarms.com farmer close to the city of 3/4 million where the radio station is located and another four farmers about one hundred miles away. Radio listeners will be able to purchase spinners wool, cheese from North Lea Sheep Dairy, and buffalo meat from Lakeside Buffalo Ranch in South Dakota. I think this is really great, but we all know it isn’t enough. This city needs and deserves local farmers growing real small farm food for daily consumption. And customer will ask for it.... About this time the offering plate would normally be passed around, but we won’t do that today.... Take a small step away from shyness, busy schedules, scientific specialties and talk with your neighbors about farm food, local producers and smallfarms.com. As Dori Green of Ash Grove Community Farm in New York said on the CSA-list, “We’re going to change the World.” Thanks, John. And with apologies to you for taking another of your posts into the farther pastures, thanks Chuck Benbrook for starting this thread. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 14:18:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25133 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29799 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29731 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (root@rac7.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.147]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28991 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01293 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jgruv@localhost) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01282 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:51:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac7.wam.umd.edu: jgruv owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:51:57 -0500 (EST) From: Joel Brooks Gruver To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 814 Hello to all... The issue of differences in nutritional quality between organically and conventionally managed crops is a distraction... the real issue is "what are the factors that impact the nutritional quality of food plants". The Soil Quality issue Volume 7 (1&2) of the American Journal of Alternative Agriculture included an article by Sharon Hornick titled "Factors effecting Nutritional Quality of Plants". This article is a good foundation for starting to think about the impact of inherent soil properties (e.g. texture, clay mineralogy), variable soil properties (e.g. organic matter content) and crop/soil management practices (e.g. fertilization, tillage...) on crop nutritional quality. A more recent article in the same journal Volume 12 (2) titled "Suppression of VAM fungi and micronutrient uptake by low-level P fertilization in long-term wheat rotations" by Clapperton, M. J., Janzen, H.H. and A.M. Johnston provides a clear example of how modification of soil ecology associated from P fertilization can reduce the micronutrient content of wheat. Another interesting article is "Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with applications of organic fertilizers" by A. Mozofar in Plant and Soil Volume 167 pages 305-311. The biotic and abiotic factors that impact crop nutritional quality are at work in both organic and conventional systems... rather than distracting ourselves with largely meaningless monolithic comparisons... lets focus on the mechanisms/factors that either promote or impede a plant's expression of its genetic potential for nutritional quality. Joel Gruver Center for Agriculture, Food and Environment Tufts University To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 16:56:54 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28186 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27482 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:16:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27441 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.132] (helo=[199.175.106.128]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 120t6x-0005BC-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:16:03 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:20:10 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: organic pesticides? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 815 Those of us in organic or natural or sustainable or, as I would put it, traditional agriculture should make this point very strongly because the chemical farmers would loke to believe that we use a lot a "organic" pesticides. Nothing can be farther from the truth. It may be tough for a while when you try to return land poisoned by chemicals to traditional cultivation. I've been working the same land for 15 years and use no pesticides, except occasional use of Btk. Occasional means every few years, the last time was three years ago because of an infestation of tent caterpillers in the fruit trees. One spraying was enough to cut them down to acceptable numbers. Two years ago we were visited by potato late blight but there is nothing that can be done, either by organic or chemical farmers (there's a biochemist at the U of Victoria who is working on a potato that will resist late blight and other fungal problems). It may be hard for the chemical crowd to accept that we don't use nor need to use pesticides, because they have allowed the chemical corporations and the government agrologists to convince them there is no way to produce efficiently without ever increasing use of killer chemicals. It is a sad treadmill they are on. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 17:58:11 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29021 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24489 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:34:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24472 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-47ppp115.epix.net [209.74.47.115]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id RAA10036; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:34:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38615395.C247321B@epix.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:41:25 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp CC: sanet Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods References: <000801bf4c45$122c22c0$ad5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 816 Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote: > If we take out all the minerals but only replace NPK why wouldn't mineral > levels go down? Also, what if the only factor in selecting new varieties is > yeild with no regard for quality? good questions. I think this needs to be addressed. I do see some movement to quality premiums. In the last several years the cannery where my processing tomatoes go has heavily weighted their payment premiums for good grades. it is possible to get more money with less yield. they are not grading for minerals/vitamins though. As a followup, I was wondering where I could get my soil tested for the minor minerals or are plant tissue tests better. how much does this test cost? What minerals should I test for? What is the best source of needed minerals. What is the most effective way to get the minerals into the plant? Seems as though we a society have opted to buy our vitamins and minerals in pills. sure would put alot of companies out of business if the general public could know they are getting them in the food they eat. then that's where a premium could come in for the farmer if he/she could validate that the minerals are actually in the food. Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 18:30:17 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29385 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04224 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04130 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29080; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21346; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:02:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:02:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Dave Miller cc: "Alty, Al" , sanet , NY VEG , CJVG list , aquaponics@townsqr.com Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2 In-Reply-To: <38607F4A.5B72@eclipse.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Dave Miller wrote: > Jim Sealy Jr wrote: > > > > Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring > > because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the > > volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world. > > Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give > > up chemicals and GE? Interesting ploy by agribusiness, all those people to feed or hold hostage over their daily bread. Before during and after WW2 US citizens were more independent amd self-sufficient. So many grew their own food then and could still, on urban lots of large farms. Why have so many in this country lost sight of this valuable option that they have ready access to? A little knowledge of permaculture and organic agriculture makes it easy. > Jim, I might be way off base here but last I checked, provisions to feed > the world are not the problem, food distribution and politics are. We > have the land space to feed the world only most of it goes toward > feeding cattle, a serious mismanagement of said land use. Without the > cattle (used for meat and milk) we could use the grains to feed billions > and ALL without a genetic engineering need. > > As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for > harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess > methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding > animals for slaughter. > > Fish farming in the aquaponic sense seems a much saner route. Anything > that is a fairly closed loop works for me. > > While I choose to generally avoid animal products/derivitives I do > understand that the world needs to eat AND that not all folks feel as I > do. > > When you ask me to believe that we must "plow under the world" I sense > that we either have a population explosion in which case I state that we > must be prepared to die like all other species on the planet, or modify > our reproduction mechanisms or at least temper our diet. > > I find the latter the easiest though birth control is also possible > short of pissing off some religious beliefs. > > I respect and expect the opinions of those who can convince me > otherwise. > > Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 18:32:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29404 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06603 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:05:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06599 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-73.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.73]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22012; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:05:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009801bf4cea$4d43a400$49fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , "Maroc" References: Subject: Re: organic pesticides? Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:06:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 > Those of us in organic or natural or sustainable or, as I would put it, > traditional agriculture should make this point very strongly because the > chemical farmers would loke to believe that we use a lot a "organic" > pesticides. Nothing can be farther from the truth. It may be tough for a > while when you try to return land poisoned by chemicals to traditional > cultivation. I've been working the same land for 15 years and use no > pesticides, except occasional use of Btk. Don wrote the above message most of which is snipped. I'd have to agree with Don. We have used a bit of the various Bt and a bit of neem(we ran out and just never bothered to get anymore). The guys and a couple of teenagers hand picked the tomato bugs and feed them to the chickens. The tatsoi had a few flea beetle holes but mostly everything flurished and of course tasted great. Beth To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 19:52:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00025 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05365 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:34:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.56.248]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05361 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from STEVED.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id SAA19501; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:34:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912230034.SAA19501@ncatark.uark.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Steve Diver" To: Steve Groff Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:28:28 +0000 Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods Reply-to: steved@ncatark.uark.edu CC: sanet In-reply-to: <38615395.C247321B@epix.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 819 Steve Groff wrote: > As a followup, I was wondering where I could get my soil tested for the minor > minerals or are plant tissue tests better. how much does this test cost? What > minerals should I test for? What is the best source of needed minerals. What is > the most effective way to get the minerals into the plant? The 14-page ATTRA's resource list titled "Alternative Soil Testing Laboratories" has just been revised (December 1999) and now available in print. The updated web version will be on-line in January. I think it goes a long way to addressing this whole issue. There are plenty of soil labs -- using a variety of approaches and philosophies -- that can provide soil-test specific information to help farmers improve soil health and crop nutritional quality. Monitoring the crop in the field with on-site instruments, and following that with agronomic and horticultural adjustments to improve the nutritional and energetic status of the crop is the other part of the equation. Steve Groff mentioned vitamins. In the list of Soil Test Supplies, Instruments, and Equipment section below -- lifted from Alternative Soil Testing Laboratories -- see the Vitamin C test strip from EM Science. Test strips are also available for nitrates. These can be done as on-site tests at the farm, at the farmstand, or at the farmers market. One of the better on-site tests you can perform as an indicator of taste is degrees Brix, using a refractometer. The refractometer is an precision optical instrument used in the food industry. The higher the Brix, the greater the soluble solids and sugars present in the sap of fruits and vegetables. On one of the California farms, they raised Brix readings on Japanese melons from 8 to 16. This is a dramatic taste improvement. This was done with supplemental foliar feeding (Brix Mix from Peaceful Valley Supply) in addition to soil amendments. In Wisconsin, the ginseng growers initiated a quality improvement program to increase active herbal ingredients. This was done through soil testing, soil fertilizer programming, and foliar feeding. Steve Diver ATTRA http://www.attra.org ================================================= Soil Test Supplies - Instruments - Equipment Gempler's 100 Countryside Drive PO Box 270 Belleville, WI 53508 800-382-8473 608-424-1544 608-424-1661 Fax [Gempler's Master Catalog] http://www.gemplers.com Gempler's IPM Almanac] http://www.ipmalmanac.com Gempler's carries a full line of soil testing equipment and IPM supplies, including pH meters, Cardy meters, electrical conductivity meters, soil test kits, and soil probes. Of special interest is the Professional Soil Quality Test Kit ($485), which provides indicators of biological, physical, and chemical soil conditions. This is the test kit promoted by USDA-NRCS, also known as the USDA Soil Health Test Kit. It was developed in the early 1990's by Dr. John Doran, a USDA soil scientist, in collaboration with the Rodale Institute in Pennsylvania. The test kit is accompanied the USDA Soil Management Manual (Item No. RGM97) which describes testing procedures for: pH, nitrates, salinity (EC), soil compaction, soil moisture, soil biological activity (respiration), soil texture, water infiltration, bulk density, earthworms, and waster quality. The manual sells individually for $9.95. Hach Co. P.O. Box 389 Loveland, CO 80539-0389 800-227-4224 970-669-3050 970-669-2932 Fax csays@hach.com http://www.hach.com Hach Co. manufacturers a number of portable soil and water quality monitoring instruments: pH meters, electrical conductivity, percent base saturation, colorimeter meter. LaMotte Co. P.O. Box 329 Chestertown, MD 21620 800-344-3100 410-778-3100 410-778-6394 Fax lamotteese@aol.com http://www.lamotte.com The LaMotte STH Soil Test Kit features the Morgan Universal Soil Extraction Solution , the solution used in the Reams Test, to measure plant available nutrients. The Kit includes a colorimetric Humus Screening Test. LaMotte carries a complete line of soil & water quality monitoring instruments. Pike Lab Supplies RR 2, Box 710 Strong, ME 04983 207-684-5131 207-684-5133 Fax Contact: Bob Pike pike@somtel.com http://kiosk.maine.com/pals/ Extensive selection of on-farm testing supplies: refractometers, paramagnetic soil meter, electrical conductivity, soil test kits, compost test kits, Cardy meters. Pike Lab Supplies also carries a wide selection of books on eco-farming. Spectrum Technologies, Inc. 23839 W. Andrew Rd. Plainfield Illinois 60544 800-248-8873 815-436-4440 815-436-4460 Fax specmeters@aol.com http://www.specmeters.com/index.htm Spectrum Technologies manufacturers a number of portable soil and water quality monitoring instruments: pH, electrical conductivity, nutrient test strips, Cardy meters, colorimeter meter. EM Science Regional and National Distributors 856-423-6300 800-222-0342 856-423-4389 Fax http://www.emscience.com EM Science manufacturers test strips for pH, nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, phosphorus, calcium, and vitamin C. The reflectoquant meter is used in combination with test strips for rapid and accurate determination of results. ================================================== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 20:33:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00350 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA18181 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:07:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18177 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FN60000D5OYI7@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:05:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:08:43 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Y2K and TEOTWAWKI To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 820 Howdy, all-- *** TEOTWAWKI = The End Of The World As We Know It :^) Some while back I wrote that I felt that the Y2K thang was blown way out of proportion, and sometimes by people who had commercial incentive: > For example, water purifier, electrical generator, and bunker-food > companies have always tried to make money off of people by scaring > them with various potential catastrophes. But it wasn't till a group > of very savvy Internet consultants engineered the Y2K scare--and > wormed it into everyone's consciousness--that it generated a mass of > commercial activity. That is, folks buying their Y2K rations.... And Gary Elliott replied: >I always enjoy reading Misha's acerbic take on the supposed realities >of modern life, but her take on y2k as a manufactured problem created by >some "Internet consultants" has me shaking my head. I didn't say there was *nothing* to the Y2K issue other than some Internet consultants who wanted to establish themselves as experts on it. What I said was that the technical reality of flawed code is quite separate, in my mind, from the scare, and those who profit from it. What I said was a cluster of people like Gary North were responsible for creating and nourishing a very powerful meme--a meaning- or belief-virus. Given that the Day of Reckoning is close at hand, I wanted to revisit these thoughts at some length. They're way connected to key issues in sustainable ag. What I see crashing down is something that scares people even more than TEOTWAWKI: their belief in technology and a threat to their dependence on it. Sustainable ag is, at bottom, about appropriate-scale technology, and technology's effects on the relationship between people, the environment, and each other. We are living in a time in history when it has become clear that any supposed, divinely-granted human "dominion" over this planet has just one outcome: dominion over a dead, rather than living, Earth. Doing technology assessment is a big shift in human thinking in technological societies, and to change behavior, people have to start seeing the interconnections. Part of that involves risking the dark understanding of what *could* happen if cascading failures occur. So let's get specific. As for the technical issue(s) of Y2K, Steve wrote in October: >it is one of the most unique events with uncertain consequences we >as humanity have faced in the last couple millennuims. I'd say you (and others) are way overstating this problem. There were a bunch of events in that time frame with uncertain consequences that I believe will turn out to be much more impact-ful. For instance, the invention of Christianity, the invention of Islam, the invention of the stirrup and the war chariot, the destruction of midwifery and traditional medicine, the invention of internal-combustion-based transport, the invention of nuclear war/energy, the indiscriminate use of antibiotics, the indiscriminate use of pesticides, providing bacterial and viral communities access to new hosts through transportation, the arrival of Eastern philosophy in the West, the invention of the corporation, and the genocide of native peoples and their belief systems. Yes indeed, we don't know how this technical problem (flawed computer code) will factor out. Yes indeed, it's unique. But that doesn't make it the end of the world. Steve, you suggested: >Folks find comfort in companies stating "99%" y2k ready, >but I sure won't drive a car that was 99% "ready". If that 1% of >"unreadiness" represented the fuel pump, we ain't goin' nowhere! It can >be fixed, but what if the parts store can't find the right fuel pump >because of some other y2k problem in their system? You can soon see the >domino effect. What would this two-digit date-programming error have to do with the fuel pump on a car? Is there a car being manufactured that is programmed so that if it gets confused about the date it--what, explodes? Stops running? Makes the brakes fail? Heads immediately for the nearest tree at 60 mph to put itself out of its misery? :^) This is the kind of panic that people in the Y2K hysteria industry managed to inject into mass and individual consciousness--it twangs the big bass string of helplessness and victimization. It's an old theme in science fiction--the day the machines turn on people and destroy them. That isn't to say there can't be multiple, or even cascading failures. But look at what you're saying, Steve. If the parts store can't find the right fuel pump because of some other Y2K problem in their system, what's the crisis? It's no different really than if you, say, were very poor and couldn't afford to have the car repaired. And, if you were poor, you'd find alternatives because you'd simply have to. Most of us on this list have alternatives for transport. We can walk, ride a bicycle, take transit, take a cab, grab a ride with someone, or ride a motorcycle that we can repair ourselves. We could even get a horse or a mule or donkey. I don't own a car, since May, for the first time since I was in my early 20s, and it's one of the best choices I ever made. We may think that these other choices aren't convenient--but that's because we externalize or underestimate the impacts and costs of personal car ownership. Ditto power failures. If my electricity goes out, everyone's will be out...and there will be a bunch of people making do till it comes back on. Otherwise it'll be a lot like the rolling brownouts that have been part of being on the grid for as long as I can remember. Ice storms have knocked out power in the Northeast and Upper Midwest and elsewhere. Was it the end of the world? Did it lead to some massive cascading failure? That people couldn't possibly recover from? I've heard people talking about how frightened they are--"There are date chips in EVERYTHING," one highly upset person told me at a local cafe this past spring. "Even my toaster!" Yes, I replied, and so what? Is your toaster programmed to blow up on 1/1/00? No, the worst that can happen is A) it tells the wrong time (not likely because the thing has a 12-hour clock--it doesn't need to know what year it is, unless you're planning your bread-toasting months or years in advance, in which case you really need to have your toaster blow up on you) or B) it ceases to function and you eat untoasted bread or go back to toasting it over a fire. People can, if they have the presence of mind and spirit to do so, substitute human ingenuity and community for technical solutions. Jeez, weren't those technical solutions created in the first place to address social problems? If cascading faults shut "everything" down--people who are extremely dependent on technology will have a higher risk of having their dependence challenged. Some of them may be injured or die. I may be one of them, so I'm not being glib here. ***But that's the nature of technology dependence.*** That's not about an error in computer code, per se. Even if this Y2K thing hadn't come up, there is danger of cascading failures. Let's go back to the car example. Cars spew thousands of tons of CO2 and other pollutants into the atmosphere, at a time when it's clear that that toxic gas is causing major problems on a planetary basis. Why are people not panicking about the cascading failures in natural ecosystems? From that perspective, a shutting down of power plants, cars, and other polluting technologies might be the best thing that could happen. Who wants to believe that people can't rise to that challenge? Who wants to believe that there's either dependency, or chaos and destruction? Why do some people believe that any threat to the fabric of our technological dependence is a threat to us personally? And how is that any different--for us in sustainable ag--than for those "conventional" farmers who, say, cannot imagine life after organophosphates? Or the alcoholic or smoker who can't break away from his or her addiction? Even here in San Francisco--where I look out my window and see nothing but roofs between here and the ocean-horizon--I believe that if All Hell Broke Loose, people would find ways to retool. If people decided to go nuts and tear things up--well, dependent people are indeed capable of doing that when the thing upon which they're dependent disappears. I believe that the real cascading failures we should be worrying about have nothing to do with anything as simple as a finite programming error. The ones I see unfolding have to do with natural systems, that we've tinkered with, and propose to and continue to tinker with. That leads me to Roberto's mention of how Y2K mirrors the frustration/concerns with GMO. The difference I see is that microchips don't self-replicate. (Yet.) The technical reality is that people write computer code, and only started doing it a couple decades ago. Just as people only discovered the "code" of DNA a few decades ago, and now some of them think they know everything about it. The Y2K problem--no matter how complex it is, and it is complex--is finite. There is a finite number of faulty lines of code out there, and further replication of this error will fall off, now that the problem is known and understood. Yes, it's complex, but it's not infinite. Nor is it increasing exponentially, out of human control. In the case of GMOs, there are potential problems you CAN'T fix by going back and fixing code, simply because it ain't just humans, and computer programmer humans, writing it. Think of the number of bacteria in a teaspoon of soil. They're among the programmers. DNA itself is unfolding according to a very ancient programming. Four billion years now. And no matter what the gene jockeys with their studly gene guns want us to believe, they're not in control of the process. It long predated us. Finally, Stephen posted this item about two months ago: >OUT OF 1,000 FIRMS SURVEYED, 84 PERCENT ARE PREPARING >FOR POSSIBLE POWER FAILURES, 86% PERCENT FOR LOSS OF >TELECOMS LINKS AND 97 PERCENT FOR SYSTEM FAILURES Well, for the love of lefse, Stephen--let us hope so!!!! This is a planet of material reality, and in material reality--as any engineer, parent, or person catching a train for an important interview knows--things go wrong. Fires, earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, meteors crashing in the tundra, squirrels bedding down in electrical transformers, highly paid engineers who don't know the difference between the English and metric systems of measurement...all kinds of things. Humans run technology, and nature stomps around doing its planet-building stuff. Preparedness such as the above should be part and parcel of daily life. I'm willing to bet that for the "firms surveyed," they were doing much of this stuff anyway, and their "Y2K preparedness" involved looking at what they were already doing, and reporting on that. If they weren't doing this already, they're idiots. Because power fails. Telcom fails. Systems fail. Preparing for failure is part of simple, basic preparedness. Engineers know this--fault tolerance is something the responsible ones build into their systems. Things break. Maybe I've just reached information-fatigue on this issue in the past three years. I've answered questions of so many people in the past year or so--what kind of power generator they should buy, how to liquidate real estate or stocks without starting a panic, what the best canned food nutrition is, how long I think the "half-life" of this crisis is.... I've stopped being understanding and polite, because what scares me is how willing people are to believe that humans are lemmings, heading for the edge of the cliff. What kind of society can we all build together, with that hopeless, disaster-focused vision of the future? What has happened to the mindset where people say, this is my home, this is my community, these are my neighbors, and I am committed to making things work for the greater good, no matter what happens? It's one thing to prepare, in general, for disruptions of basic technological services. What I see, instead, is that many people are perceiving this technical issue, and any potential resulting social problems, with a millennialist anxiety. And a creepy kind of death-wish-flavored energy. And victimization. And helplessness. My point in my earlier message is that the Y2K meme--the idea, the thought-form--got a lot of its power from people spreading scare stories in order to sell goods and services. Most of those were stories about the scary things that COULD happen. But now many of them are accepted as the prophesied truth. So we hear (as one Y2K-hysteria Web site puts it): Bank funds will not be accessible. There will be massive, long-term power failures. Planes all over the world will be grounded. 911 will be out of order. Military defense systems will fail. Telephone systems will fail to operate. IRS tax records and government checks will be unavailable. Office computers will not work and your employer will go bankrupt. Social security checks will stop coming. Hospital electronic instruments will stop working. The stock market will crash in 1999. Bank runs will start in 1999. The government is already prepared to declare martial law. Supply networks for life saving medications will cause shortages. Municipal water plants will close down. The postal system will not be able to process mail. Populations of large cities will riot. I agree that computer technology is not nearly as invulnerable as people think it is. Yet I don't believe--as many people apparently do--that the fabric of human community and ingenuity is so weak that this particular technical glitch is going to bring human society crashing down. Anything built by humans is prone to crashing. And since we live in a society where we're subject to so much infrastructure built by humans, yep, the possibilities for crashing are everywhere. Is it possible to survive, and even thrive, without social security, 911, airplanes, the stock market, computers, the postal system, municipal water, etc.? Most people in this world don't have or use these things, and they survive. Gosh, they even manage to have families, communities, and societies. They have art, music, science, philosophy, dance, religion, tradition, homes, food systems. Everything in the list above--criminy, that sounds like part of day to day life for most people. I mean, c'mon, name one thing, above that hasn't happened, prior to Y2K. So what are the Y2K hysterics concluding--that the only possible way of living is a technologically dependent one, and that's going to fall apart? Jeez, what a death-worshipping worldview. No thanks. What does our purported Western industrial "quality of life" amount to, if we can be disabled so easily in spirit and faith, catapulted into fear, by a technical mishap which may or may not cascade? Yes, this Y2K thing is bound to have effects. Yes, some of them are likely to be dire for someone--just as the earthquakes in Turkey and Taiwan were dire for the dear folks living in those fault zones. I'm willing to bet that Y2K-related failures injure or kill far fewer people in the next ten years than breast cancer will between Y2K and Y2K+1. I'm willing to bet more people will be killed and maimed on New Year's Eve by drunk and drugged drivers or gun-wielding doofuses than by computer problems. In these closing days of a period of arbitrary calendrical measurement (a "millennium"), I don't have a lot of patience for millennialist hysteria. If you want to see the real social effects of cascading technological failure, go to the Sudan, to Ethiopia, to Russia, to Yugoslavia, to Korea, to Flint, Chester, East St. Louis, and Gary, Indiana. Go to the "third world" nations where perfectly viable, sustainable technologies were replaced with "superior" ones that have proceeded to shred and dismember societies and create new forms of suffering. For me, the Y2K thing could wake people up to think about the interconnectedness of human technology, the fragility of and lack of fault tolerance in those systems, and the risks we take with our health and lives in pursuing the Promethean myth that we can command the forces of nature. But I see it as far from the biggest threat facing us at present. And I see those of us in sustainable ag as having the power to voice a vision that steps aside from technological dependence on the one hand--and techno-panic on the other. As the last lone cannibal on the deserted island said, "Well. Looks like survival isn't everything after all." Thanks for listening. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prometheus, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire...but I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction. --The god Zeus, in Hesiod, /Works and Days/ 55 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 20:47:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00471 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA28111 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:31:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from thehub.knight-hub.com (thehub.knight-hub.com [205.177.16.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28047 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (dialas-137.knight-hub.com [205.252.164.137]) by thehub.knight-hub.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27013 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:30:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:30:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199912230130.UAA27013@thehub.knight-hub.com> X-Sender: auburn@knight-hub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Walt and Jill Auburn Subject: Job Opening at USDA Directing Major New Grant Program Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 >CSREES Seeks Candidate For Temporary GS-15 Job >======================================= > >CSREES is seeking applicants for the position of Director, Initiative for >Future Agriculture and Food Systems. This is a GS-15 temporary appointment, >not to exceed one year. The announcement number is CSREES-ROM-0284; it >opened December 16, 1999, and applications must be postmarked by the closing >date of December 30, 1999. You may obtain a copy of the announcement from >the CSREES Homepage [http://www.reeusda.gov/], click on the Job >Opportunities bar, then on CSREES Job Opportunities on the index page; or go >directly to http://www.reeusda.gov/hrd/vacancy.htm and check for the >announcement number listed above. You may also call 301-504-1484. For >specific questions about this announcement, contact Vonda Ehrhart at >202-690-2482 or e-mail vehrhart@ars.usda.gov. > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 22 22:56:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01301 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08067 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:24:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07989 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl209-74-47ppp83.epix.net [209.74.47.83]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id WAA04429; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:24:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <386197A4.4AF74655@epix.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:31:48 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Misha CC: sanet Subject: Re: Y2K and TEOTWAWKI References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 Misha wrote: > Steve, you suggested: > > >Folks find comfort in companies stating "99%" y2k ready, > >but I sure won't drive a car that was 99% "ready". If that 1% of > >"unreadiness" represented the fuel pump, we ain't goin' nowhere! It can > >be fixed, but what if the parts store can't find the right fuel pump > >because of some other y2k problem in their system? You can soon see the > >domino effect. > > What would this two-digit date-programming error have to do with the > fuel pump on a car? Is there a car being manufactured that is > programmed so that if it gets confused about the date it--what, > explodes? Stops running? Makes the brakes fail? Heads immediately for > the nearest tree at 60 mph to put itself out of its misery? sorry for not being clear with my example of the car. the answer to all the above question is, no. Y2K won't cause any problems in cars. I'll state it another way. If a company that produces X product is 99% Y2K compliant and that 1% is the phone system, that company will be in trouble. they might get the phones up and running in a day or so, but what if it lasts a week? who knows? I personally don't like the "snow storm" effect that so many are promoting. I think Y2K will be a nuisance all next year in various aspects of our lives. Hey, but who really knows??? In a month we'll sure know more than now. Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 00:39:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02245 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA12722 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:59:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ioracle@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.67]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12689 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.104]) by lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991223045942.MDWF1336.lh2.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:59:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3861AD91.5FCF817B@home.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:05:21 -0800 From: William Evans Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: my mineralization post- authorship Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 823 Can anyone point me toward references on the mineral and vitamin content > of vegetables since 1900 or so? "The Sanet archives contain a number of posts .. "The Healing Power of Minerals, Special Nutrients and Trace Elements" by Paul Bergner (1997, Prima Publishing, Rocklin, CA) includes USDA figures ." I didnot do any research for this post- merely saved it from a recent SANET post. I apologize to the author and anybody ive offended and thank him for citing the references mentioned billevans To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 10:42:12 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10954 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15014 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:49:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14986 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandy.surfsouth.com (IDENT:root@sandy.surfsouth.com [205.139.60.110]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04069 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from paulowniatrees.com (02-ocil-017.dial.optilinkcomm.net [216.128.152.149]) by sandy.surfsouth.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08020 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:49:27 -0500 Message-ID: <386236EB.2D6A2863@paulowniatrees.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:51:24 -0500 From: David Drexler Organization: PaulowniaTrees.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: Phytoremediation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 824 Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytorediation? To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 10:42:20 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10958 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15901 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:55:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from shelly.surfsouth.com (IDENT:root@shelly.surfsouth.com [205.139.60.100]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15897 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from paulowniatrees.com (02-ocil-017.dial.optilinkcomm.net [216.128.152.149]) by shelly.surfsouth.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10517 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:55:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3862383E.E88150A6@paulowniatrees.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:57:03 -0500 From: David Drexler Organization: PaulowniaTrees.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: [Fwd: Phytoremediation] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 825 David Drexler wrote: > Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytorediation? To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 10:58:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11081 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00993 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:36:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl ([62.108.1.73]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00973 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 121AI1-0001VM-00; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:36:29 +0100 Message-ID: <386246F5.CBFF59D9@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:59:50 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Ann Clark" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: query on "Meta" for slug and snail control References: <3.0.5.32.19991221161609.0085f100@ConnRiver.net> <385FFF4D.41B4E77D@uoguelph.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 826 I checked with the Dutch Organic Certifying Inst. Apparently it is allowed, indeed for snailcontrol. However, the permission expires at 31-3-2002 and is anyway not unconditional. I will check further in the EU ordinance 91-2092 what the exact terms of use are. wytze E. Ann Clark wrote: > Folks: I am passing on this query for a colleague. He has a 1997 brochure from a > Swiss company "Lonza" which markets a product called META (which is metaldehyde; > formula C8H16O4), for use in a wide range of crops. They state in the pamphlet: > > ""Due to the fact that META is not harming beneficial organisms like earthworms > and carabid beetles, it is ideal for use in Integrated Pest Management production > systems. It is officially approved by the EU to be fit for use in organic > farming." > > Can one of our European friends pls check and confirm for me if this is true? Is > META approved for use in organic farming in Europe? Thanks in advance. Ann > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:06:22 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11154 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07547 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07466 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-56.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.56]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06519 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3861E3D2.1AC2@eclipse.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:56:50 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 827 Sane or Not? I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of obesity and generally improve our nation's health: * Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal agricultural products. Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a disproportionate share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food dollar. * USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School Lunch Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a dumping ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary habits in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, cholesterol, and sodium. * US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education in schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many schools welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between the USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our kids never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. * HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to interest groups to improve school lunch menus. * Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. FARM can be reached through the following information: FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:07:55 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11177 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07534 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07439 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-56.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.56]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06511 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:45:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3861AE12.1C4C@eclipse.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:07:30 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: Government control of money supply? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 828 Howdy all, We have seen 5 new "state" quarters this year and we will continue do to so for 9 more years ie. 50 states. Assuming we don't annex PR in this decade. My thought is this, many people will hoard/stash away these coins as commeratives (myself included) but this takes money out of circulation. Was this a plot to remove money from circulation? To change the debt load? Or as a temporary measure or to divert us away from Y2K thoughts? I am probably way off base here but your thoughts are welcomed. -- Happy Solstice, Prosperous New 2000! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:15:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11252 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10614 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:54:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10594 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-56.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.56]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06296; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:44:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3861A836.3B28@eclipse.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:42:30 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet Subject: Doctors Sue Glickman and Shalala Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 829 Okay, so I am more than a week late: On Wednesday, December 15, 1999, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a national health advocacy group, filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS). FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE December 15, 1999 Doctors Sue Glickman and Shalala Financial Conflicts of Interest, Racial Bias on Diet Panel Washington, D.C.—The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a national health advocacy group, filed a federal lawsuit today against the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS). PCRM is charging the government with violating the law that bans undue influence in federal advisory committees. The D.C.-based doctor's group is concerned about the activities of a powerful 11-member federal advisory committee, appointed to revise the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. Along with the Food Guide Pyramid, these Guidelines provide nutritional advice for all Americans and form the basis of all federal food programs, including the National School Lunch Program which feeds 26 million children a day. "We have uncovered evidence that at least six of these committee members have had or currently have significant ties to the meat, dairy, or egg industries," says Mindy Kursban, PCRM staff counsel. "And we have good reason to believe the government has intentionally withheld documents revealing conflicts of interest." {THIS IS REALLY SAD} "It doesn't take a physician to diagnose the problem with this committee," says PCRM president Neal D. Barnard, M.D. "Clearly, its work—and the public's health—has been compromised. As health professionals concerned with the staggering levels of illness in this country, these industry ties are particularly hard to swallow." PCRM is also suing the USDA and the DHHS for promoting dietary guidelines that undermine minority health. In a national campaign launched last spring, PCRM is asking the government to acknowledge that minorities suffer from higher rates of prostate cancer, diabetes, and other chronic diseases than Caucasians and to promote diets low enough in fat and rich enough in plant products to reduce their risk of these conditions. Additionally, PCRM is asking the government to make dairy strictly optional, acknowledging that the majority of African-, Hispanic-, Asian-, and Native-Americans are lactose-intolerant, and that they may wish to choose other sources of calcium. PCRM's proposals for changing the Guidelines have been endorsed by the Congressional Black Caucus Health Braintrust; the NAACP; former U.S. Surgeon General M. Joycelyn Elders, M.D.; Martin L. King, III; Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr.; Muhammad Ali; and many other community leaders and minority health advocates. For interviews with PCRM medical and legal experts, as well as video footage of the news conference, please contact Simon Chaitowitz at 202-686-2210, ext. 309. SimonChai@aol.com The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine is a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit organization founded in 1985 and focused on preventive medicine, particularly good nutrition, and higher standards in research. To learn more, please visit: http://www.pcrm.org/news/lawsuit.html -- Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:44:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11582 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15461 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:19:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15445 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 27267 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 15:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.29.190) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 15:58:29 -0000 Message-ID: <08d101bf4d57$2ff5e1c0$9a2cd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Cc: , , , , , Subject: Fw: The Night before Compost Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:27:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 830 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Merry Christmas to all, and a Year 2000---may yer Yak to Kildeer ratio = stay in whack, (keep that Y2K out of whack attack in the sack!) This is recycled, I wrote it before, if you already read it, well read = it once more! -----Original Message----- From: Frank Teuton To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Cc: compost@listproc.wsu.edu Date: Friday, December 25, 1998 8:51 AM Subject: The Night before Compost 'Twas the night before compost and all through the pile all the creatures were stirring all the aerobic while. =20 Their feedstocks were layered=20 into the pile with care =20 In hopes that bacteria soon would grow there. =20 The moisture was added, till the good stuff was glistening, to the wrung out sponge dampness (is everyone listening?) =20 The brown stuff was measured, the green stuff was too =20 The good C/N ratio for a fine microbe stew =20 The leaves were piled on, all shredded and humid While their decomposition anticipatedly loomed =20 On Acer, On Quercus, On Salix, On Elmus! Fraxinus and Fagus,On Prunus and Pinus! =20 So top off your bins, to the top of their walls =20 And rot away, rot away, to fine humus all!!! =20 Merry Christmas and Good Composting, =20 Frank Teuton and family ------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Merry Christmas to all, and a Year = 2000---may=20 yer Yak to Kildeer ratio stay in whack, (keep that Y2K out of whack = attack in=20 the sack!)
 
This is recycled, I wrote it before, if you already = read it,=20 well read it once more!
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Frank Teuton <fteuton@total.net>
To: = OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU <OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU>
Cc: compost@listproc.wsu.edu = <compost@listproc.wsu.edu>=
Date:=20 Friday, December 25, 1998 8:51 AM
Subject: The Night = before=20 Compost

'Twas the night before = compost
and all through the = pile
all the creatures were = stirring
all the aerobic while.
 
Their feedstocks were layered =
into the pile with care
 
In hopes that bacteria soon would = grow=20 there.
 
The moisture was added, till the = good stuff was=20 glistening,
to the wrung out sponge dampness (is = everyone=20 listening?)
 
The brown stuff was measured, the = green stuff=20 was too
 
The good C/N ratio for a fine = microbe=20 stew
 
The leaves were piled on, all = shredded and=20 humid
While their = decomposition=20 anticipatedly loomed
 
On Acer, On Quercus, On Salix, On=20 Elmus!
Fraxinus and Fagus,On Prunus and=20 Pinus!
 
So top off your bins, to the top of = their=20 walls
 
And rot away, rot away, to fine = humus=20 all!!!
 
Merry Christmas and Good=20 Composting,
 
Frank Teuton and=20 family
------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:51:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11697 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22797 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:27:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from Server1.wclynx.com (server1.wclynx.com [207.44.186.194]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22710 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from wclynx.com ([209.249.70.136]) by Server1.wclynx.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44039U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA200; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:27:09 -0800 Message-ID: <38624DFD.FBDBB99F@wclynx.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:29:49 -0800 From: Diane Cooner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: recycler@eclipse.net CC: sanet Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? References: <3861AE12.1C4C@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 831 Greetings to Sanetters! I've only seen one of these coins myself, so don't know if the circulation question applies - at least not in my neighborhood! I think the gov't has everyone distracted with airport security just now, and thoughts of blaming "terrorists" for our woes instead of our own programmings shortsightedness. diane in too sunny (75 degree) northern california Dave Miller wrote: > Howdy all, > > We have seen 5 new "state" quarters this year and we will continue do to > so for 9 more years ie. 50 states. Assuming we don't annex PR in this > decade. > > My thought is this, many people will hoard/stash away these coins as > commeratives (myself included) but this takes money out of circulation. > > Was this a plot to remove money from circulation? To change the debt > load? Or as a temporary measure or to divert us away from Y2K thoughts? > > I am probably way off base here but your thoughts are > welcomed. > -- > Happy Solstice, Prosperous New 2000! > _______________________________________ > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» > ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ > Recycler Dave > > A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 11:55:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11733 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25307 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:36:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM (the-spa.com [204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25185 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.234]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 4759400 ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:36:46 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991223113827.007dfb60@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:38:27 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Y2k, go away! In-Reply-To: <199912231236.HAA29663@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 832 Whew what a headful those last two long y2k posts were...I certainly appreciate Misha's perspective-reminder; after all, how can the internet be a truly global network when 2/3 of the people on earth do not have a telephone?! Our technology is vastly overrated and it's impact on real people is overstated. All the time, and especially with the y2k stuff. I can't stand computers anymore. I have to use one for work, and I obviously use email, but my laptop at home is buried in the back of the closet. Early on in my computer infatuation phase I quickly learned that the computer is not your friend, and that it sucks more time out of you than it ever saves you, personally or professionally. I still stand by that statement. When the handle on my shovel breaks, I can make a new one and get back to work. When my computer breaks, I am on hold with tech support for hours, or it is in the shop for weeks, or I need to throw it away and buy a new one! Which is the better tool? There are all kinds of people willing to exploit our fears -- techno geeks looking to make a big buck (or who are genuinely afraid that their beloved technology will collapse); religious megalomaniacs looking for an ego feeding; and simple hucksters cashing in on the latest trend (you know the type; they used to sell counterfeit Rubik's Cubes on the streets of NYC; now they are selling home security systems and water filters. They know how to follow the $$!) But the saddest part of this Y2K thing to me was the well-intentioned nouveau (or old time) hippies trying to turn this millenial tension into a "community building experience." I don't know which depresses me more -- their naivete or the understanding that humans are singularly selfish and that there are more people willing to exploit a disaster than help other during one. I have good neighbors and I know if we need anything during the next year we will help each other. But its a wide world out there and it is full of people too afraid, apathetic, angry, vengeful, and psychotic to create the "community response" to Y2K that these activists are working toward. A moment of clarity for me was a report from the NE ice storm a few years ago. A fellow in Maine was stating that he was getting by OK because he traded his shotgun to his father for some cordwood to keep his home warm. I guess the point of the story was supposed to be to illustrate how these backwoods folk help each other out, but dammit, why didn't his father just GIVE him some cordwood? Are we Yankees so tight that we won't even help out our own families in a crisis? Yikes... These isolated community builders can hold all the meetings and pot lucks they want. I can't imagine any of them going into the ghetto to help the people whose social security, disability and welfare checks aren't coming anymore -- they are the most likely victims of Y2k anyway. OK so enough ranting. Go ahead and flame away. I'm not sure how much of this I believe after reading it over anyway! Happy Holidays! Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 13:14:41 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13007 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22351 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:48:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22347 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:48:23 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.191]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:48:23 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991223114733.008a9b80@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:47:33 -0600 To: Subject: Radura Logo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 833 Check out the radura logo at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/pics8/radura.jpg that is being used to identify radiation treated meats. (This .jpg is from an editorial which is at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-22g.html. Warning the editorial gets somewhat flaky towards the end. But anyway...) This radiation treated meat logo is a Pretty Slick Way to try and make people think their products are related to the enviornement movement. No more yellow/orange and black with three side and a center dot from the bad old days. Radiation now is our friend. Mr. Gamma Ray will keep you from being sick. Can you say Glow in the Dark? For those of you without web access, the radura is a green circle, segemented at the top and has the two "leaves" at the bottom of the logo like on the EPA symbol and a green dot in the center so the inside looks like a stylized flower. It reminds me of the early Earth Day logo's if I can remember that far back. I propose a contest. Who can do the best parody of the radura symbol? Maybe somebody with a web server could host the entries for this contest? I have my idea being made by a friend with a Mac that has good graphics. What better way to protest than with parody. All winners and participants will be rewarded with a tickled funny bone. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 13:33:51 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13246 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26861 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:12:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26834 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-11-26.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.170]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA25823; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:15:07 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bf4d74$326220a0$aa5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: , "sanet" Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:33:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 834 Not sane. A sustainable agriculture is going to have to include livestock. What would be sane is a program that does not encourage the overproduction of grain and instead would produce the sane production of animals in grass/legume based systems. Humans were intended to eat meat. Humans were not intended to eat animals that are raised on top of their own fermenting manure in damp sunless buildings, pumped full of antibiotics, fed animal by-products, fed the fat from McDonalds fryers etc. Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp Free range pig, chicken, and rabbit producer -----Original Message----- From: Dave Miller To: sanet Date: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:01 AM Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair >Sane or Not? > > I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's >National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of >obesity and generally improve our nation's health: > >* Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal >agricultural products. > > Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and >dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a >disproportionate >share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome >vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption >deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food >dollar. > >* USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School >Lunch >Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a >dumping >ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy >industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary >habits >in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, >cholesterol, >and sodium. > >* US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education >in >schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many >schools >welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition >education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are >provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between >the >USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our >kids >never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. > > >* HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting >healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example >in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to >interest groups to improve school lunch menus. > >* Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie >plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip >service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables >and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and >cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies >fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. > >FARM can be reached through the following information: >FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org > "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" > >Recycler Dave > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 23 08:00:26 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09857 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29411 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:34:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29406 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id UAA32557; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:34:08 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA25618; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:05:05 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912231305.VAA25618@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 23 Dec 99 17:42:32 Subject: Re: Y2K and TEOTWAWKI To: mgs23@pacbell.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 835 Related to Misha's post on the y2k, here's an article I distributed earlier this year. -- Roberto Millennium Bomb (II): Transforming the System by Roberto Verzola In the year 2000 (or Y2K), millions of computers and other automated equipment are threatened by a time-related software problem. The problem arose from early computer programmers' practice of recording only the year's last two digits (e.g., 52) instead of all four (i.e., 1952), to save space. When the year 2000 comes, machines may assume that the last two digits (i.e., 00) mean 1900. This is the Millennium Bug, which can confuse them and cause them to fail. Since many machines are part of a bigger system, their failure can trigger a cascade of other failures. Although some had warned of this problem as early the 1960s, most programmers ignored it for many years and continued to use two-digit years to save space or to maintain compatibility with older systems. Today, despite frantic efforts to correct the problem, it is too late to finish all remedial work on time. Y2K failures can disrupt electrical power, communications, land, sea and air transport, financial services like banking, and other strategic industries. Automated plants like oil refineries, nuclear, chemical, and industrial plants are vulnerable. Panic-buying and heavy withdrawals in anticipation of future disruptions can lead to early food riots and bank runs. At worst, as Under-Secretary-General for Management Joseph E. Connor of the United Nations said in his presentation at a U.N meeting in December 1998, the crisis can "paralyze our civilization." Part I of this article reviewed in the detail the nature of the Y2K problem at four levels: the automated backbone of industrial society, the production and distribution level, the financial level and the psychological level. It also discussed six responses to the problem: early warning, problem denial, frantic problem-solving, individual survivalism, local sufficiency and systemic transformation. Rediscovering community Early warnings and problem denial had marked earlier responses to the problem. Today, typical government and corporate responses involve frantic problem-solving, while an increasing number are preparing for individual survival. These responses generally presume a post-Y2K "business as usual" scenario. However, there are scenarios other than "business as usual." The Y2K crisis is also forcing people to rethink fundamental patterns of thinking and behavior, and to reorganize themselves accordingly in response to the crisis. Thus, some Y2K responses are now acquiring a community perspective, which involves organizing and building resilient communities, with local sufficiency among their top goals. Communities are starting to realize that the best way to prepare for possible disruptions is to go against the grain of globalization and to rely on facilities and resources under local control and within easy local reach. People are rediscovering community and the value of local sufficiency. Flaws of industrialism The Y2K crisis will shake industrialism to its very core, exacerbate its weaknesses and reveal its deepest flaws to all. It will lead people to ask fundamental questions: What if the Y2K problem was simply a symptom of deeper flaws in modern industrial society? What if certain deeply-embedded patterns of thought and behavior actually led to the Y2K crisis, and are also leading us to more serious economic and ecological problems? And what if these problems may pose, in the future, even worse threats to our survival? To see the problem in this light is to appreciate the Y2K response called "systemic transformation." This response sees the Y2K crisis as a wake-up call for humanity, providing us a rare opportunity to identify and correct these flawed patterns and to radically transform the industrial system during its period of crisis, before even more serious problems overwhelm us. It is a curious historical coincidence that the Roman Catholic church has declared the year 2000 a "Jubilee Year", a time to release all prisoners, forgive all debts and redistribute the land equitably, so that all can start a new life. Millennarian movements are also expected to become very active during the millennial transition, with their apocalyptic messages that mix doom and deliverance. Thus, in large parts of the world, even the spiritual calls will jive with secular efforts towards systemic transformation. To succeed, systemic transformation requires concerted effort by change advocates: to become part of emerging self-sufficient communities or lead in forming them; to sharpen their critique of today's flawed thinking; to present solid arguments for the sounder approaches they are proposing; and to do all these within the window of opportunity presented by the period 1999-2000. This article hopes to contribute to the broad effort to transform the present system by analyzing some deeply-flawed mindsets of industrial society as revealed by the Y2K crisis. These flawed mindsets include: * techno-worship, * gain-maximization, * externalizing costs, * globalism, and * quantification fetish. Techno-worship The Y2K problem exposes modern society's blind and nearly total dependence on high technology and its high priests, a dependence that borders on techno-worship. When technology fails, many people find themselves completely lost, unable to meet even their most basic needs. Production for meeting those needs has become more and more hidden behind the veil of technology and detached from ordinary human experience. Techno-worship alienates us from nature, from our fellow human beings, and from the products and processes of human labor. We are led to think, for example, that food comes from the supermarket, not from the land; that water comes from the tap, not from springs and rivers; and that clean air is created by air-conditioning systems, not by nearby trees and forests. Even those who refuse to worship technology still find themselves trapped by it. Technology is ubiquitous, intruding constantly between us and nature, between us and our fellow human beings, and between the worker and the production process. This forces us to relate directly to technology, and we end up granting it more and more control over our lives. But then, who in turn controls the technologies which control most peoples' lives? The hand behind the control panel is corporate research and development (R&D), and the bottom line is corporate profits. Working hand-in-hand with government R&D, they decide the technologies to be developed, how, by whom, and for what purpose. And corporate R&D's chosen direction is for more powerful and all-encompassing -- and therefore more destructive -- technologies, which often require centralized, top-down, one-way decision-making to work properly. Just look at how Monsanto Corporation today is trying to centralize food production under its monopoly. Invariably, these technologies create their own anomalous problems. When technological anomalies become impossible to ignore, the technocracy then proposes another technological fix, trapping us in a vicious never-ending cycle of techno-malies and techno-fixes, each problem becoming more serious and each solution becoming more expensive than before -- until catastrophe hits. A genetic version of the Y2K problem, for example, will truly be a catastrophic one. Can we break this vicious cycle and reassert our control over technology? We can, if we use human-scale tools -- ones that keep the tool-user and the community in touch with nature, with each other, and with production itself. Called appropriate technology, such tools are usually simpler to operate, lower in cost, easier to fabricate locally, smaller in scale and more benign. Behind such technology is the human-scale principle. Gain-maximization The preoccupation with efficiency -- the desire to maximize gains at all cost -- is one of the greatest flaws of modern society. Gain maximization is behind the shortsightedness, cost postponement, microefficiencies, and globalism that led straight to the Y2K problem. It became the dominant way of thinking after Adam Smith convinced economists that an economic agent maximizing its own gain is also maximizing gain for society as a whole. This imbued the gain-maximizing principle with moral force, so that businessmen would even proudly proclaim that what is good for their corporation is also good for the country. This thinking went a step further when governments legalized a special economic agent: the for-profit corporation. Unlike a natural person -- a bundle of mixed motivations and emotions -- this legal person's one and only motivation is to maximize its own gain. It is a pure gain-maximizer. Worse still, our law-makers enshrined in law these pure gain-maximizers' economic and political rights, which the latter shrewdly used to create an environment favoring their survival and further growth. Having acquired foothold, corporations have gradually expanded their rights ("liberalization"), have worked to remove social and legal restrictions on their operations ("deregulation"), and have taken over many functions originally the preserve of other social structures and institutions ("privatization"). Beyond Y2K, let us look at other global problems which threaten us and our environment: global warming, the proliferation of toxic substances, the loss of habitats leading to massive species extinction, the concentration of wealth and more. Behind these problems, we will usually find the not-so-invisible hand of these pure greed-driven economic agents who recognize no constraints in their pursuit of growth and gain. While other deeply-flawed mindsets beset contemporary society, the idea of maximizing one's gain above all else is truly a major flaw. Instead of efficiency, we should prize reliability more. Instead of maximizing gain, we can and should move towards minimizing risk, until the balance is restored in favor of the latter. Minimizing risk and emphasizing reliability encourages us to cooperate instead of competing with each other, to share resources instead of monopolizing them, and to hold assets and facilities in common instead of in private. Risk minimization is also called the precautionary principle. Externalizing costs Efficiency calls for minimizing inputs or costs. Over the years, minimizing costs has become an art and a science, practiced to near-perfection by those who seek to maximize gains. While they can reduce costs legitimately, gain-maximizers often simply exclude costs from the cost-accounting system by "externalizing" them. This is done in different ways: * Costs are passed on to people who have little or no say in making decisions and are in no position to protest or refuse. This is a social justice problem. * Costs are passed on to the environment, which may seem to absorb them for a while but whose capacity to do so soon becomes exhausted. This is an ecological problem. It is also a social justice problem, for it affects people who depend on the environment for their livelihood and survival. * The costs are postponed and passed on to the future, to our children and grandchildren. Given a short planning horizon, the costs do not figure into current decisions. This is a problem of generational justice. The desire to postpone costs played a big part in sapping the institutional will to fix the Millennium bug until it was too late. The same desire leads to a wanton disregard of the exhaustion of non-renewable resources like fossil-fuels and minerals. It also leads us to miss obvious threats like greenhouse gases, toxic chemicals, or genetically-engineered organisms. In contrast, some indigenous tribes decide which course of action to take only after analyzing the effects that each action will have on the next seven generations. * Costs are counted as gains. That sounds ridiculous, but that is exactly how economists and national planners do it, adding goods as well as "bads" to the gross national product (GNP) to measure "improvements" in a country's economy. Note, for instance, how the costs of fixing the Y2K problem and the costs of the lawsuits arising from that problem will "raise" the GNP. Externalizing costs blinds the decision-makers to unacceptable costs and risks. It creates the impression of viability in projects which society would normally reject. It also victimizes the weak and the voiceless who end up bearing much of the costs. A better approach to externalizing costs is full-cost accounting. Under this approach, the costs to different sectors of society, to the environment, and to future generations are fully accounted for and borne by those who caused them. It does not lump together goods and bads into meaningless figures like the GNP or the GDP. This is the fairness principle. Globalism In their relentless pursuit of higher efficiency, more raw material sources, larger markets, and greater gains, corporations have argued for "economies of scale" and extended their operations throughout the globe. Toward that end, they are bent on breaking down all barriers standing in their path: economic barriers, cultural and linguistic barriers, territorial barriers, geographic barriers and even biological barriers between species. Systems theory abounds with explanations of why turning a network of relatively independent modular subsystems into a single tightly-coupled humongous system increases dramatically the number of potential interactions and undesirable side-effects within that system. The side-effects, in turn, make the system problem-ridden, unreliable and failure-prone. The Millennium Bug is a perfect example. Globalization has dramatically increased the number of possible interactions within the world economy and at its different levels: computing infrastructure (global networks and the Internet), production and distribution (globalized production systems and global free trade), finance (liberalization and global mobility of capital), and mass psychology (international media and the Internet). This sets the stage for the global nature of the Y2K crisis: a problem in one level can easily lead to many side-effects at that level and at other levels. The simultaneous multiple Y2K failures will make the global economy problem-ridden, unreliable and crash-prone. Even biology eschews globalism: life exists not as one humongous community, but as separate species. If barriers between species break down -- which is what cocky and incredibly naive genetic engineers are doing -- the unrestricted exchange of DNA can dramatically increase the number of potential biochemical interactions, including side-effects that can spread throughout the system. The consequences of a genetic equivalent of the Millennium Bomb are too horrible to even contemplate. The preference for large-scale approaches to problems -- megadams, huge mechanized equipment, monoculture, large-scale manufacturing, and so on, reflects the globalist mindset. This preference is based on the argument that "economies of scale" lead to greater efficiencies. Behind globalism, therefore, is the now-familiar gain-maximization mindset. Globalism may lead to greater efficiencies, but often at the expense of reliability. Aside from resulting in a failure-prone system, globalism also leads to a totalitarian approach: a "there-is-no-alternative" syndrome that forces autonomous or independent units to be subsumed within its sphere. Globalization, for example, is associated with terms like "inevitable", "you have no choice", "we can't do anything about it", etc. No country or community is left alone and spared from intrusion. In planning highly-reliable systems, successful designers almost always use the modular approach -- they break up a complex system into smaller, relatively autonomous subsystems (or modules), which interact only through well-defined links. Then, they create barriers -- firewalls, even -- to prevent unnecessary interactions and to ensure that the interactions take place at the designated links. A sound approach will give priority to community, bioregional, and national sufficiency, and build a robust network among them. Self-sufficient communities, bioregions and nations would relate to each other through well-defined rules that do not undermine but instead strengthen local sufficiency. This successful approach comes from systems theory and is based on the modular principle. Quantification fetish The Y2K crisis will be triggered by potential and actual failures in the measurement of elapsed time. That such failures of measurement can threaten the global economy reflects how the measurement of quantity has come to rule our economic life. The urge to measure and count has become a fetish at the expense of quality. Because we can measure income and GNP and count populations, we have forgotten how to sense the quality of life and the happiness of peoples. Because we can measure cholesterol levels, we have forgotten how to feel our own state of health. Because we can count calories, we have forgotten how to pick the nourishing from the toxic-laden foods. And by passing on to machines the tasks of counting and measurement, we miss the essence of things completely. Eventually, this fetish leads to techno-worship. By masking qualitative issues like value-judgments and human suffering, quantification allows the technocracy to claim "scientific" and "rational" judgments supposedly made by "neutral" and "value-free" machines and computers. By reducing human values to pure quantities, this mindset, in partnership with gain-maximization, has also created a runaway financial system which has simply become a mad race to make money beget more money, in ways totally unrelated to the real production system and its underlying ecological base. The quality principle should replace the contemporary fetish for quantification. As some say, "better, not bigger." By restoring the dynamic balance between quality and quantity, with quality in a more dominant role, we can also restore the importance of human capacities that no one can measure, that no machine can detect: the capacity to feel, to love, to enjoy, to intuit, to be healthy, and to be happy. What is an appropriate scale for human activities? For politics and governance? For the economy? For manufacturing? For planning? The quality principle suggests an answer: it is that scale in which quantitative methods are not anymore necessary to make the activity work, allowing us to concentrate more on the quality rather than the quantity of the result. In short, it is that scale which still allows us to sense and feel -- even intuit -- quality without requiring us to count or measure it. At this scale, techno-worship loses its basis for existence and quantification can remain useful and interesting but not anymore necessary; social relationships retain their personal and face-to-face character, so that the reaction of people we know and personally see can easily blunt mindsets like maximizing gains or externalizing costs. The Millennium's greatest challenge These flawed mindsets are behind the Y2K crisis. They will also lead us in the future to even worse ecological crises, whose early consequences we are already starting to feel. The Y2K crisis is but a warning shot. While it is scaring many people, its impact will not be as bad as the ecological disasters we can already see coming. Knowing this, we can take the Y2K crisis as a timely warning to stop denying ecological problems, to switch to early concern, and to stop pinning our hopes on frantic -- and futile -- last-minute attempts to fix problems. The Millennium Bomb is probably our last chance for a relatively painless systemic transformation. Some feel overwhelmed by what faces us and by modern industry's seemingly inexhaustible capacity to regenerate itself and remain dominant. They fear it will be "business as usual" after the Y2K crisis passes and that the maximizers of gain and all they represent will be in more control than ever. They should take heart, and not lose sight of the increasing numbers who are demanding that we reject socially-unjust and ecologically-disastrous thinking and who are forming themselves into self-sufficient communities. The crisis is going to weaken industrialism's hold and strengthen these new communities. Those who advocate transformation can help these communities flourish well beyond the crisis years, to pose a direct challenge to the flawed mindsets at the core of industrialism. Others think we should confront the immediate problems of surviving first and worry about transforming the system later. They say they can do something about the immediate problems but very little about the systemic problems. Certainly, we should prepare for the immediate problems. But we should also realize that the best time to initiate systemic changes is during the actual crisis, not afterwards. When a complex system enters a chaotic period, it becomes much more responsive to efforts to change it. Determined efforts which seem puny during a stable, non-chaotic period may become decisive during a critical, chaotic period. The chances of transforming the system are much better during -- not after -- the crisis. If enough communities transform themselves, a "phase-change" occurs -- just like the final exertion to push a car over the top of a hill. After that, the people's direction and the new social terrain become mutually-reinforcing, making it very difficult to return to the old mindsets. The greatest challenge then is to transform the crisis itself into a vast movement, one that engages us in profound soul-searching, one that rejects the flawed mindsets that are steering us towards disaster, one that frees us, our institutions and our communities to take up socially-just and ecologically-friendly patterns of thought and action. If, through our supreme efforts, we manage to form enough of these transformed communities, absolutely unwilling to return to the old ways and perfectly capable of replicating and multiplying themselves, then we will have created a way out of self-destruction. It is then up to the rest of humanity to take this escape route from the looming ecological disasters created by today's flawed paradigms. Then, and only then, can we welcome the new millennium with great joy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Roberto Verzola is the secretary-general of the Philippine Greens, a political movement in the Philippines that advocates principles of ecology, social justice and self-determination. He also runs an e-mail network for Philippine NGOs and moderates the mailing list Interdoc-Y2K (to subscribe, email the one-line message "subscribe interdoc-y2k" to majordomo@jca.ax.apc.org). He is an electrical engineer by training. He may be reached at rverzola@phil.gn.apc.org. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 23 11:10:27 1999 -0500 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11205 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09551 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:48:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09466 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-01-56.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.56]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06384; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:44:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3861A917.6D9E@eclipse.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:46:15 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fdadockets@oc.fda.gov Subject: Monsanto/BGH docket Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 Hello FDA, As a tax paying, voting American citizen - I would like to register my support for the passage of the Docket 99P-4613 - which demands the recall of Monsanto's rbGH. This hormone has been wisely banned in Canada and other countries - and we need to stop bowing here in the USA to major corporations who would put massive profit ahead of human safety. Let's get consumer safety back to being a PRIORITY. I encourage everyone to realize the potential dangers to humans and cows. Thank You, Dave Miller Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! _______________________________________ «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Recycler Dave A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@timber.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 14:35:46 1999 Received: from timber.ces.ncsu.edu (timber.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.35.106]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14040 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majord@localhost) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00636 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:15:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: timber.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ns.rockbridge.net (ns.rockbridge.net [206.151.4.1]) by timber.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00632 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.151.4.79] by ns.rockbridge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59513U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:08:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:23:47 -0400 Subject: Good Earth Farm School Schedule 2000 From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" To: pasturepoultry@onelist.com CC: pasturepigs@onelist.com, sanet , "graze-l" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19991223190838342.AAE235@ns.rockbridge.net@[206.151.4.79]> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 Good Earth Farm School schedule for 2000 is: March 17, hands-on how-to greenhouse workshop March 18, Virgina/DC Farmers Marketing Workshop March 24, Trickle irrigation for garden and farm March 25, Organic Market Gardening Design and Planning April 14-15, Organic Market Gardening, Planning, Production and Marketing May 12-13, Chicken Tractors and Free Range Poultry, Production, Processing, and Marketing For more information see our web page www.goodearthpub.com, or contact: Andy Lee Good Earth Farm School 1702 Mountain View Road Buena Vista, VA 24416, USA phone & fax: (540) 261-8775 -- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 16:05:58 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14835 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22342 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ntscspdcexch1.caldwellspartin ([208.24.177.8]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22337 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by NTSCSPDCEXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:45:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Walker Bennett To: Misha , SANET-mg Subject: RE: Y2K and TEOTWAWKI Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:45:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 Misha: At last, a mote of sanity within a sea doomsayers! As a professional programmer, I thought it a no-brainer in the mid-70's there there was a problem with two character dates and am proud to say that I have NOT written a thing since '78 what won't work next week! However, people greatly underestimate the seriousness of the Y2K bug. After all, to fix the problem, a computer programmer needs to find a date... and we all know the (un)likelihood of that happening! :) (I had to throw that in to bring this whole thing into perspective...sorry) Walker Bennett e-mail: Work Home Both ___________________________________________________________ Blessed are the young, for they shall inherit the national debt.-- Herbert Hoover ___________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Misha Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 8:09 PM To: SANET-mg Subject: Y2K and TEOTWAWKI Howdy, all-- *** TEOTWAWKI = The End Of The World As We Know It :^) Some while back I wrote that I felt that the Y2K thang was blown way out of proportion, and sometimes by people who had commercial incentive: . . . . . . Thanks for listening. peace mish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prometheus, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire...but I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction. --The god Zeus, in Hesiod, /Works and Days/ 55 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 18:30:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15982 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16287 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:06:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16163 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.132] (helo=[199.175.106.146]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 121HIv-0008LT-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:06:01 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:10:10 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: minerals and nutrition Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 We must be making some headway because Alison and Dale are both right on. Alison your sales pitch is honest and pointing people in the correct direction. With reasonable respect to Dale and his collegues we'd have to say that no scientist in a lab will ever be as finely tuned to bovine nutrition as a healthy cow. If there is a disagreement over the nutritional contents of any bovine food, I'll trust the cow any day. You can bet that humans have a built-in ability in this also, although nearly all of us have grown so far from the real world that we has lost most of it. I would never pretend that food we grow has constant nutritional content/quality. There are too many variables over the plant's lifetime to predict the final outcome. But you know quality when you get it. You know the joy when your eyes, your fingers, your nose, your lips, mouth, and digestive tract all sing, "this is it", even if it is only a radish. Science has its values, although it is nothing like the chemical corporations would have us believe. For instance, it took me a long time to realize (and admit) that sending soil samples to a testing lab was all wrong. Just as the cow can tell me a lot about the food I'm giving her, our vegetable plants and fruit vines, bushes and trees, will tell me what they need and want if I watch them carefully and learn to understand their signs. If Dale and Alison are both headed down the same road, we'd do well to head in that direction also. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 19:07:23 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16380 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02123 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:53:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02013 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:52:54 -0500 (EST) From: CAVM@aol.com Received: from CAVM@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id 7.0.93e5dd93 (3317) for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:52:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.93e5dd93.25940fb2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:52:18 EST Subject: Re: Phytoremediation To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 840 In a message dated 12/23/1999 12:51:32 PM Central Standard Time, owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu writes: > > Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:51:24 -0500 > From: David Drexler > Subject: Phytoremediation > > Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytoremediation? > David, We use is some in projects but I would not claim to be an expert. Perhaps we can help anyway. What do you have in mind? Cornelius A. Van Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc. Organic waste processors CAVM@AOL.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 19:50:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16631 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA16504 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16499 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16562; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07230; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:34:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:34:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: CAVM@aol.com cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Phytoremediation In-Reply-To: <0.93e5dd93.25940fb2@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 CAVM@aol.com wrote: > > Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:51:24 -0500 > > From: David Drexler > > Subject: Phytoremediation > > > > Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytoremediation? > David, > > We use is some in projects but I would not claim to be an expert. Perhaps we > can help anyway. What do you have in mind? > > Cornelius A. Van Milligen > Kentucky Enrichment Inc. > Organic waste processors > CAVM@AOL.com Wouldn't this be bioremediation using hyperaccumulating plants and/or constructed wetlands? Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 23:41:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18677 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09040 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:17:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09036 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-03-157.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.157]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA02733; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:16:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3862F47F.624C@eclipse.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:20:15 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp , sanet Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair References: <000a01bf4d74$326220a0$aa5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 Greg, You wrote: > Humans were intended to eat meat. I must say - a lot of 'wrong' ideas 'go way back' - but they're still incorrect....anyway - whichever way you look >From my personal archives: -physically/anatomically/structurally -enzymatically -environmentally - we are either biologically 100% vegetarian or perhaps 98%. Note that much of the following I will say - applies also to the primates, who are clearly closest to us of all the animals...and are also vegetarians, save for very rare acts of combat/dominance ritual related cannibalism. Look at: - humans' lack of claws -lack of fangs - we have long, pouched/puckered intestinal tract -unlike the short, smooth walled intestines of carnivore animals. (and when I say carnivore - I mean "predominantly carnivorous" I say this because ALL animals eat a lot of raw vegetable matter). - presence in our saliva of amylase, a starch dissolving enzyme - in concentrations not found in carnivores. - all kinds of DRASTIC enymes and acid/alkaline differences with clear carnivores, and AMAZING similarities with the vegetarian primates - and other vegetarian animals, I might add! - crushing, grinding molars that are 'wired' to crush from side to side, and optimum!! for chewing leafy greens. - contrast with the jaws of carnivores which are 'wired' to open widely and tear flesh...remember - cats and dogs - though they can thrive on a veg diet - eat grass and other greens when they can - and can even pick the type and amount to 'cleanse' something they ate that wasn't so good for them (dogs can be safely vegetarian, but cats MUST have the amino acid taurine, lest they go blind) - similar alignments with veg - animals re: method of "sweating", pores, "panting" to cool down etc. Likewise - drastic diff. between humans and carnivores here... - let's not depend on that 'gatherer-hunter' shell game. The fossil record shows clearly, and has been interpreted by way better minds than I - that pre-heavy ice age and glacial activity - early humans ate waaaaaaayyy predominantly organic, raw vegan foods!!! - Leafy greens, flowers, pods, fruits, berries, roots, nuts, seeds. Animal protein intake was basically 'stolen' eggs, fish, and occasional small rodents, birds and the like. To me, the theories that make the clearest sense say that - as temperature conditions began to make foraging difficult for longer periods and food/fuel requirements changed - and of course hunting tools/weapons were developed - we began to hunt more - but STILL...the human diet was predominantly organic plant material! anyway - hope to hear your views on this - but I feel it is clear that we are: 1. completely designed to optimize health on a raw or nearly raw, complete vegetarian diet 2. equipped with the free-will to choose to do otherwise, which I respect above all 3. equipped with the hubris to ignore/obfuscate the damage choosing #2 does to the individual, their community/environment, the fresh water supply on planet earth, the topsoil, and ultimately, through massively accelerated destruction of the rainforests, to the very possibility of humans' survival en masse. Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 23 23:56:02 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18743 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16086 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:33:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15994 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-7-9.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.57]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA29359; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:35:42 -0500 Message-ID: <000801bf4dca$e45261c0$395f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: , "sanet" Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:53:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 843 I am not convinced of the following: 1) Humans can easily attain their vitamin, mineral, energy, and amino acid needs easily with just vegetables 2) Very many farmers will exist with a vegetarian lifestyle of the masses 3) Grass based agriculture is abusing the natural resources 4) Organic vegetable production on a scale to feed the masses can be accomplished without co-existing with animals. Please don't interpret that I am trying to say that the average person eats enough vegetables and that the average person eats the right kind of meat or meat products. Actually, I think both couldn't be further from the truth. Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp Free range pork, chicken, and rabbit producer To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 24 04:32:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA20220 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 04:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA17231 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 03:48:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (IDENT:0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [160.94.5.41]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17227; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 03:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.58.29.166] by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:48:38 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19991224025600.006d4784@engl0097.email.umn.edu> X-Sender: engl0097@engl0097.email.umn.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:56:00 -0600 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu From: "Keli S. Engleson" Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1505 In-Reply-To: <199912231813.NAA26927@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id DAA17228 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 Please unsubsribe At 01:13 PM 12/23/99 -0500, sanet-mg-digest wrote: > >sanet-mg-digest Thursday, December 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1505 > > > >In this issue: > > Phytoremediation > [Fwd: Phytoremediation] > Re: query on "Meta" for slug and snail control > Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > Government control of money supply? > Monsanto/BGH docket > Doctors Sue Glickman and Shalala > Fw: The Night before Compost > Re: Government control of money supply? > Y2k, go away! > Radura Logo > Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > >See the end of the digest for information about sanet-mg-digest. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:51:24 -0500 >From: David Drexler >Subject: Phytoremediation > >Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytorediation? > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:57:03 -0500 >From: David Drexler >Subject: [Fwd: Phytoremediation] > >David Drexler wrote: > >> Does anyone have knowledge or experience with phytorediation? > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:59:50 +0100 >From: wytze >Subject: Re: query on "Meta" for slug and snail control > >I checked with the Dutch Organic Certifying Inst. Apparently it is allowed, indeed for >snailcontrol. However, the permission expires at 31-3-2002 and is anyway not >unconditional. I will check further in the EU ordinance 91-2092 what the exact terms >of use are. >wytze > >E. Ann Clark wrote: > >> Folks: I am passing on this query for a colleague. He has a 1997 brochure from a >> Swiss company "Lonza" which markets a product called META (which is metaldehyde; >> formula C8H16O4), for use in a wide range of crops. They state in the pamphlet: >> >> ""Due to the fact that META is not harming beneficial organisms like earthworms >> and carabid beetles, it is ideal for use in Integrated Pest Management production >> systems. It is officially approved by the EU to be fit for use in organic >> farming." >> >> Can one of our European friends pls check and confirm for me if this is true? Is >> META approved for use in organic farming in Europe? Thanks in advance. Ann >> >> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:56:50 -0500 >From: Dave Miller >Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > >Sane or Not? > > I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's >National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of >obesity and generally improve our nation's health: > >* Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal >agricultural products. > > Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and >dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a >disproportionate >share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome >vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption >deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food >dollar. > >* USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School >Lunch >Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a >dumping >ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy >industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary >habits >in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, >cholesterol, >and sodium. > >* US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education >in >schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many >schools >welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition >education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are >provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between >the >USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our >kids >never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. > > >* HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting >healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example >in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to >interest groups to improve school lunch menus. > >* Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie >plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip >service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables >and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and >cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies >fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. > >FARM can be reached through the following information: >FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org > "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" > >Recycler Dave > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:07:30 -0500 >From: Dave Miller >Subject: Government control of money supply? > >Howdy all, > >We have seen 5 new "state" quarters this year and we will continue do to >so for 9 more years ie. 50 states. Assuming we don't annex PR in this >decade. > >My thought is this, many people will hoard/stash away these coins as >commeratives (myself included) but this takes money out of circulation. > >Was this a plot to remove money from circulation? To change the debt >load? Or as a temporary measure or to divert us away from Y2K thoughts? > >I am probably way off base here but your thoughts are >welcomed. >- -- >Happy Solstice, Prosperous New 2000! >_______________________________________ >«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» >¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >Recycler Dave > >A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:46:15 -0500 >From: Dave Miller >Subject: Monsanto/BGH docket > >Hello FDA, > >As a tax paying, voting American citizen - I would like to register my >support for the passage of the Docket 99P-4613 - which demands the >recall of Monsanto's rbGH. > >This hormone has been wisely banned in Canada and other countries - and >we need to stop bowing here in the USA to major corporations who would >put massive profit ahead of human safety. > >Let's get consumer safety back to being a PRIORITY. > >I encourage everyone to realize the potential dangers to humans and >cows. > >Thank You, > >Dave Miller > >Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! >_______________________________________ >«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» >¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >Recycler Dave > >A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:42:30 -0500 >From: Dave Miller >Subject: Doctors Sue Glickman and Shalala > >Okay, so I am more than a week late: > >On Wednesday, December 15, 1999, the Physicians Committee for >Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a national health advocacy group, filed a >federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and >the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS). > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >December 15, 1999 > >Doctors Sue Glickman and Shalala >Financial Conflicts of Interest, >Racial Bias on Diet Panel > >Washington, D.C.—The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine >(PCRM), a national health advocacy group, filed a federal lawsuit today >against the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Department of >Health and Human Services (DHHS). > >PCRM is charging the government with violating the law that bans undue >influence in federal advisory committees. The D.C.-based doctor's group >is concerned about the activities of a powerful 11-member federal >advisory >committee, appointed to revise the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. > >Along with the Food Guide Pyramid, these Guidelines provide nutritional >advice for all Americans and form the basis of all federal food >programs, >including the National School Lunch Program which feeds 26 million >children >a day. > >"We have uncovered evidence that at least six of these committee members >have had or currently have significant ties to the meat, dairy, or egg >industries," says Mindy Kursban, PCRM staff counsel. "And we have good >reason to believe the government has intentionally withheld documents >revealing conflicts of interest." > > >{THIS IS REALLY SAD} > > >"It doesn't take a physician to diagnose the problem with this >committee," says PCRM president Neal D. Barnard, M.D. "Clearly, its >work—and the public's health—has been compromised. As health >professionals concerned with the staggering levels of illness in this >country, these industry ties are particularly hard to swallow." > >PCRM is also suing the USDA and the DHHS for promoting dietary >guidelines that undermine minority health. In a national campaign >launched last spring, PCRM is asking the government to acknowledge that >minorities suffer from higher rates of prostate cancer, diabetes, and >other chronic diseases than Caucasians and to promote diets low enough >in fat and rich enough in plant products to reduce their risk of these >conditions. > > >Additionally, PCRM is asking the government to make dairy strictly >optional, acknowledging that the majority of African-, Hispanic-, >Asian-, and Native-Americans are lactose-intolerant, and that they may >wish to choose other sources of calcium. > > >PCRM's proposals for changing the Guidelines have been endorsed by the >Congressional Black Caucus Health Braintrust; the NAACP; former U.S. >Surgeon General M. Joycelyn Elders, M.D.; Martin L. King, III; >Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr.; Muhammad Ali; and many other community >leaders and minority health advocates. > > >For interviews with PCRM medical and legal experts, as well as video >footage of the news conference, please contact Simon Chaitowitz at >202-686-2210, ext. 309. SimonChai@aol.com > > >The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine is a Washington, >D.C.-based nonprofit organization founded in 1985 and focused on >preventive medicine, particularly good nutrition, and higher standards >in research. > >To learn more, please visit: >http://www.pcrm.org/news/lawsuit.html > > > >- -- >Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century! >_______________________________________ >«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» >¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >Recycler Dave > >A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:27:13 -0500 >From: "Frank Teuton" >Subject: Fw: The Night before Compost > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >- ------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Merry Christmas to all, and a Year 2000---may yer Yak to Kildeer ratio = >stay in whack, (keep that Y2K out of whack attack in the sack!) > >This is recycled, I wrote it before, if you already read it, well read = >it once more! > >- -----Original Message----- >From: Frank Teuton >To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU >Cc: compost@listproc.wsu.edu >Date: Friday, December 25, 1998 8:51 AM >Subject: The Night before Compost > > >'Twas the night before compost >and all through the pile >all the creatures were stirring >all the aerobic while. >=20 >Their feedstocks were layered=20 >into the pile with care >=20 >In hopes that bacteria soon would grow there. >=20 >The moisture was added, till the good stuff was glistening, >to the wrung out sponge dampness (is everyone listening?) >=20 >The brown stuff was measured, the green stuff was too >=20 >The good C/N ratio for a fine microbe stew >=20 >The leaves were piled on, all shredded and humid >While their decomposition anticipatedly loomed >=20 >On Acer, On Quercus, On Salix, On Elmus! >Fraxinus and Fagus,On Prunus and Pinus! >=20 >So top off your bins, to the top of their walls >=20 >And rot away, rot away, to fine humus all!!! >=20 >Merry Christmas and Good Composting, >=20 >Frank Teuton and family > >- ------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type>HTML//EN"> > > > >
Merry Christmas to all, and a Year = >2000---may=20 >yer Yak to Kildeer ratio stay in whack, (keep that Y2K out of whack = >attack in=20 >the sack!)
>
 
>
This is recycled, I wrote it before, if you already = >read it,=20 >well read it once more!
>
 
>
-----Original = >Message-----
From:=20 >Frank Teuton <href=3D"mailto:fteuton@total.net">fteuton@total.net>
To: = >href=3D"mailto:OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU">OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU <href=3D"mailto:OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU">OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU>
Cc: >href=3D"mailto:compost@listproc.wsu.edu">compost@listproc.wsu.edu = ><href=3D"mailto:compost@listproc.wsu.edu">compost@listproc.wsu.edu>= >
Date:=20 >Friday, December 25, 1998 8:51 AM
Subject: The Night = >before=20 >Compost

>
'Twas the night before = >compost
>
and all through the = >pile
>
all the creatures were = >stirring
>
all the aerobic while.
>
 
>
Their feedstocks were layered = >
>
into the pile with care
>
 
>
In hopes that bacteria soon would = >grow=20 >there.
>
 
>
The moisture was added, till the = >good stuff was=20 >glistening,
>
to the wrung out sponge dampness (is = >everyone=20 >listening?)
>
 
>
The brown stuff was measured, the = >green stuff=20 >was too
>
 
>
The good C/N ratio for a fine = >microbe=20 >stew
>
 
>
The leaves were piled on, all = >shredded and=20 >humid
>
While their = >decomposition=20 >anticipatedly loomed
>
 
>
On Acer, On Quercus, On Salix, On=20 >Elmus!
>
Fraxinus and Fagus,On Prunus and=20 >Pinus!
>
 
>
So top off your bins, to the top of = >their=20 >walls
>
 
>
And rot away, rot away, to fine = >humus=20 >all!!!
>
 
>
Merry Christmas and Good=20 >Composting,
>
 
>
Frank Teuton and=20 >family
> >- ------=_NextPart_000_08CE_01BF4D27.E5679F60-- > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:29:49 -0800 >From: Diane Cooner >Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? > >Greetings to Sanetters! >I've only seen one of these coins myself, so don't know if the circulation >question applies - at least not in my neighborhood! >I think the gov't has everyone distracted with airport security just now, and >thoughts of blaming "terrorists" for our woes instead of our own programmings >shortsightedness. >diane in too sunny (75 degree) northern california > >Dave Miller wrote: > >> Howdy all, >> >> We have seen 5 new "state" quarters this year and we will continue do to >> so for 9 more years ie. 50 states. Assuming we don't annex PR in this >> decade. >> >> My thought is this, many people will hoard/stash away these coins as >> commeratives (myself included) but this takes money out of circulation. >> >> Was this a plot to remove money from circulation? To change the debt >> load? Or as a temporary measure or to divert us away from Y2K thoughts? >> >> I am probably way off base here but your thoughts are >> welcomed. >> -- >> Happy Solstice, Prosperous New 2000! >> _______________________________________ >> «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» >> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >> Recycler Dave >> >> A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker >> >> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >> "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >> http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:38:27 -0500 >From: Mark >Subject: Y2k, go away! > >Whew what a headful those last two long y2k posts were...I certainly >appreciate Misha's perspective-reminder; after all, how can the internet be >a truly global network when 2/3 of the people on earth do not have a >telephone?! Our technology is vastly overrated and it's impact on real >people is overstated. All the time, and especially with the y2k stuff. I >can't stand computers anymore. I have to use one for work, and I obviously >use email, but my laptop at home is buried in the back of the closet. >Early on in my computer infatuation phase I quickly learned that the >computer is not your friend, and that it sucks more time out of you than it >ever saves you, personally or professionally. I still stand by that >statement. When the handle on my shovel breaks, I can make a new one and >get back to work. When my computer breaks, I am on hold with tech support >for hours, or it is in the shop for weeks, or I need to throw it away and >buy a new one! Which is the better tool? > >There are all kinds of people willing to exploit our fears -- techno geeks >looking to make a big buck (or who are genuinely afraid that their beloved >technology will collapse); religious megalomaniacs looking for an ego >feeding; and simple hucksters cashing in on the latest trend (you know the >type; they used to sell counterfeit Rubik's Cubes on the streets of NYC; >now they are selling home security systems and water filters. They know how >to follow the $$!) > >But the saddest part of this Y2K thing to me was the well-intentioned >nouveau (or old time) hippies trying to turn this millenial tension into a >"community building experience." I don't know which depresses me more -- >their naivete or the understanding that humans are singularly selfish and >that there are more people willing to exploit a disaster than help other >during one. I have good neighbors and I know if we need anything during >the next year we will help each other. But its a wide world out there and >it is full of people too afraid, apathetic, angry, vengeful, and psychotic >to create the "community response" to Y2K that these activists are working >toward. A moment of clarity for me was a report from the NE ice storm a >few years ago. A fellow in Maine was stating that he was getting by OK >because he traded his shotgun to his father for some cordwood to keep his >home warm. I guess the point of the story was supposed to be to illustrate >how these backwoods folk help each other out, but dammit, why didn't his >father just GIVE him some cordwood? Are we Yankees so tight that we won't >even help out our own families in a crisis? Yikes... > >These isolated community builders can hold all the meetings and pot lucks >they want. I can't imagine any of them going into the ghetto to help the >people whose social security, disability and welfare checks aren't coming >anymore -- they are the most likely victims of Y2k anyway. > >OK so enough ranting. Go ahead and flame away. I'm not sure how much of >this I believe after reading it over anyway! > >Happy Holidays! > >Mark >- ---------------------------------------------------- >Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) >An independent non-profit organization. > >http://www.buylocalfood.com > >893 West Street >Amherst MA 01002-5001 >T: 413-559-5338 >F: 413-559-5404 > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:47:33 -0600 >From: mmiller@pcsia.com >Subject: Radura Logo > >Check out the radura logo at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/pics8/radura.jpg >that is being used to identify radiation treated meats. (This .jpg is from >an editorial which is at http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-22g.html. > Warning the editorial gets somewhat flaky towards the end. But anyway...) > >This radiation treated meat logo is a Pretty Slick Way to try and make >people think their products are related to the enviornement movement. No >more yellow/orange and black with three side and a center dot from the bad >old days. Radiation now is our friend. Mr. Gamma Ray will keep you from >being sick. Can you say Glow in the Dark? > >For those of you without web access, the radura is a green circle, >segemented at the top and has the two "leaves" at the bottom of the logo >like on the EPA symbol and a green dot in the center so the inside looks >like a stylized flower. It reminds me of the early Earth Day logo's if I >can remember that far back. > >I propose a contest. Who can do the best parody of the radura symbol? >Maybe somebody with a web server could host the entries for this contest? >I have my idea being made by a friend with a Mac that has good graphics. >What better way to protest than with parody. All winners and participants >will be rewarded with a tickled funny bone. Mike Miller > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:33:22 -0500 >From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" >Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > >Not sane. A sustainable agriculture is going to have to include livestock. >What would be sane is a program that does not encourage the overproduction >of grain and instead would produce the sane production of animals in >grass/legume based systems. Humans were intended to eat meat. Humans were >not intended to eat animals that are raised on top of their own fermenting >manure in damp sunless buildings, pumped full of antibiotics, fed animal >by-products, fed the fat from McDonalds fryers etc. > >Best wishes, >Greg Gunthorp >Free range pig, chicken, and rabbit producer >- -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Miller >To: sanet >Date: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:01 AM >Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > > >>Sane or Not? >> >> I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's >>National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of >>obesity and generally improve our nation's health: >> >>* Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal >>agricultural products. >> >> Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and >>dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a >>disproportionate >>share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome >>vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption >>deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food >>dollar. >> >>* USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School >>Lunch >>Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a >>dumping >>ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy >>industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary >>habits >>in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, >>cholesterol, >>and sodium. >> >>* US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education >>in >>schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many >>schools >>welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition >>education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are >>provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between >>the >>USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our >>kids >>never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. >> >> >>* HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting >>healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example >>in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to >>interest groups to improve school lunch menus. >> >>* Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie >>plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip >>service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables >>and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and >>cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies >>fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. >> >>FARM can be reached through the following information: >>FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org >> "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" >> >>Recycler Dave >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >> > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > >------------------------------ > >End of sanet-mg-digest V1 #1505 >******************************* > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the comannd >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 24 10:06:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21512 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03006 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:45:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02996 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:45:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (59.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.89]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA20148 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:48:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912241448.IAA20148@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: farm subsidies are unfair Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:47:35 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 Recycler Dave used two terms in his post on vegetarianism vs meat eaters - being vegetarian (shall we say herbivore?) and carnivore. He apparently forgot the other catagory of animal - omnivore. People are omnivores, that is capable of being sustained on a wide variety of food sources including vegetative and the flesh of other animals, fish, etc. As far as teeth go, I am no dentist, but don't we have "canines", upper and lower? Now I am all for people who want to be vegetarian, thats their choice and more power to them. The way I see it, the more that are vegetarian the lower the demand for meat, and the lower the price I have to pay for chicken breasts, beef roasts, pork chop, lamb, etc. etc. ;-> Son of Richard To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 24 15:10:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23881 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24995 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:53:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24991 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.126] (helo=[199.175.106.128]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 121ala-00005N-00 ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:52:54 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:57:04 +0000 To: Rick Roush From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: Re: Should we label turkey too? Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 846 It's wonderful to see these bought and paid for scientists steadfastly defending their benefactors. But they shouldn't let the PR flacks write their scripts. Little wonder the public worldwide is laughing at "sound science" and the people promoting it. However, if they are talking about those pre-stuffed butterball turkeys the lab rats would have to be pretty hungry before getting into that "food". Season's Greetings from Vancouver Island, Canada Don Maroc >STUFF THE TURKEY >December 25, 1999 >New Scientist > >Turkey, vegetables, stuffing and more besides are full of natural substances >that give lab rats cancer, warn a group of New York scientists in a >Christmas menu which they have designed to ridicule scare stories about >pesticide residues in food and posted on the Internet. > >According to the menu published by the New York-based American Council on >Science and Health, roast turkey and beef contain natural heterocyclic >amines, substances which trigger DNA mutations and cause cancer in rodents. >Rats also develop cancer when fed with the dyestuff aniline, which occurs >naturally in carrots. But if you're feeling particularly brave, eat >stuffing. There's a whole range of nature's nasties in the bread, onions, >celery, black pepper and mushrooms that cause cancer or DNA mutations in >rodents. The stuffing ingredients include acetaldehyde, a toxic breakdown >product of alcoholic drinks, benzo[*]pyrene, a potent carcinogen found in >cigarette smoke, and ethyl carbamate, a natural pesticide. >Ruth Kava, director of nutrition at the American Council on Science and >Health was quoted as saying, "We try to get across that just because >something is synthetic, it's not inherently any more dangerous than >something Mother Nature puts there herself." > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >The address for any administrative command like unsubscribe, >subscribe or help is: > > GENTECH-REQUEST@gen.free.de > >The searchable WWW list archive is available at > > http://www.gene.ch/archives.html To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 25 08:03:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28403 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 08:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA25744 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 07:36:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25717 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 07:36:37 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.228]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 06:36:38 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991225063540.008bc640@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 06:35:40 -0600 To: Subject: Sustainable Agriculture Mentioned Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 847 This morning Weekend Marketplace amoung the predictions of a new breed of CEO farmers who don't ride tractors, of 10,000 cow dairy farms and laments over people not accepting 10,000 cow dairy farms there was a short segement on the sustainable agriculture site at http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/ They even mentioned that the site was opposed to GE crops. When I went to the site, I found another reasons that might explain why Dr. Clark has been quiet here lately - like working??? In the most recent issue of the Journal of Alternative Agriculture, she was listed as a co-author and then there was a link at farming-connection to http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac/10reasons.htm the aforementioned GE crop article. Parsing back the address I found this article under the opensource software site at MetaLab. I guess the problems of overexpansive patents is not limited to Norvartis and agriculture alone. Now, before the chim-chee hits the fan over this patent, might be a good time to get out of either Amazon or all other E-commerence stocks - depending on who you think will win this patent battle. Somebody is going to lose bigtime on this fight if they succeed in patenting "cookies". Mike Miller
                Please do not buy from Amazon

Amazon has obtained a US patent (5,960,411) on an important and
obvious idea for E-commerce: the idea that your command in a web
browser to buy a certain item can carry along information about your
identity.  (This works by sending back a "cookie", a kind of ID code
that your browser received previously from the same server.)  Amazon
has sued to block the use of this simple idea, showing that they truly
intend to monopolize it.  This is an attack against the World Wide Web
and against E-commerce in general.

The idea in question is that a company can give you something which
you can subsequently show them to identify yourself for credit.  This
is nothing new: a physical credit card does the same job, after all.
But the US Patent Office issues patents on obvious and well-known
ideas every day.  Sometimes the result is a disaster.

Today Amazon is suing one large company.  If this were just a dispute
between two companies, it would not be an important public issue.  But
the patent gives Amazon the power over anyone who runs a web site in
the US (and any other countries that give them similar patents)--power
to control all use of this technique.  Although only one company is
being sued today, the issue affects the whole Internet.

Amazon is not alone at fault in what is happening.  The US Patent
Office is to blame for having very low standards, and US courts are to
blame for endorsing them.  And US patent law is to blame for
authorizing patents on computational techniques and patterns of
communication--a policy that is harmful in general.  (See
lpf.ai.mit.edu for more information about this issue.)
Foolish government policies gave Amazon the opportunity--but an
opportunity is not an excuse.  Amazon made the choice to obtain this
patent, and the choice to use it in court for aggression.  The
ultimate moral responsibility for Amazon's actions lies with Amazon's
executives.

We can hope that the court will find this patent is legally invalid,
Whether they do so will depend on detailed facts and obscure
technicalities.  The patent uses piles of semirelevent detail to make
this "invention" look like something subtle.

But we do not have to wait passively for the court to decide the
freedom of E-commerce.  There is something we can do right now: we can
refuse to do business with Amazon.  Please do not buy anything from
Amazon until they promise to stop using this patent to threaten or
restrict other web sites.

If you are the author of a book sold by Amazon, you can provide
powerful help to this campaign by putting this text into the "author
comment" about your book, on Amazon's web site.  Please send mail to
amazon@gnu.org when you do this, and please tell us what happens
afterward.

                Richard Stallman
                President, Free Software Foundation
                MacArthur Fellow
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Dec 25 09:30:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29426 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02565 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:10:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02560 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-198.prodigy.net.mx by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNA00HQJVBCKC@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 08:09:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 08:06:53 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds Subject: NNFA Petitions FDA to Review Marketing of GMO foods To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Reply-to: Douglas Hinds Message-id: <12338.991225@acnet.net> Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 848 Howdy: The following may be of interest and shows the kinds of simple and well founded things that can and should be done to refute the shoddy logic expressed by industry lapdogs (even here) and turn the tide. More of this is needed on both the public health and environmental safety fronts - meaning that other governmental agencies with oversight should be petitioned. When enough data accumulates to justify initiating lawsuits, these petitions will help provide a basis for including these agencies themselves, should they fail to act appropriately. The article can be seen at: http://www.foodonline.com/content/news/article.asp?DocID={7B09F188-B7B9-11D3-9A7D-00A0C9C83AFB}&Bucket=Latest+Headlines Natural Products Trade Group Petitions FDA for Stronger Oversight of GM Foods 12/21/99  The National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA), a natural products trade group, has filed a Citizen Petition with the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) asking that the agency strengthen its evaluation process of genetically modified foods before allowing them to be sold. The NNFA was critical of the FDA's current policy that essentially treats genetically engineered foods the same as conventional varieties. "NNFA aims to ensure that the market entry of genetically modified foods does not outpace thorough scientific evaluations of their safety," said the association's president, Patrick Toomey. Under the FDA's current policy, developed in 1992, a manufacturer can market a new genetically modified food if it convinces the FDA, through a ``private consultation,'' that the food is ``substantially equivalent'' to an existing substance already in the food supply. NNFA maintains that this process falls short in three areas: it is voluntary, not mandatory the substantial equivalence examination lacks well-defined risk assessment criteria the process lacks the transparency needed for adequate public health protection because it is not open to participation by independent experts As grounds for more careful scrutiny of genetically modified foods, the NNFA cites the unintended and potentially harmful side effects of these foods, such as the 1996 discovery of a Brazil nut allergen in transgenic soybeans and the more recent toxic effect of genetically modified corn on the Monarch butterfly. "Nothing should be taken for granted when assessing the safety of a particular substance intended for human consumption that is derived from the emerging science of genetic engineering," the petition stated. To view the NNFA’s full petition, visit their website at www.nnfa.org. Edited by Pam Ahlberg To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Dec 26 19:46:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02721 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08830 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:18:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net (IDENT:root@mailgate.wizvax.net [199.181.141.25]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08802 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from wizvax.net (ts2p34.wizvax.net [204.97.162.99]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA15822 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:22:22 -0500 Message-ID: <3866C13F.F63D7E31@wizvax.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:30:39 -0600 From: "Sarah l. Johnston" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Conference Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 849 Conference Announcement NORTHEAST ORGANIC FARMING ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK 18th Annual Conference January 29 and 30, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY PLANTING SEEDS FOR THE FUTURE: TAKING CHARGE OF OUR SEED SUPPLY - Skills, ideas, and connections for creating a regional seed supply. As genetically engineered field crops threaten to change the nature of farming, work to preserve and expand the production of regionally adapted vegetables and field crops is a positive step that farmers, seed businesses and gardeners can take. There will be 30 workshops over two days (5 concurrent sessions) a keynote address by Will Bonsall, a Saturday evening debate on the pros and cons of genetically modified plants in agriculture with Dr. Dennis Gonsalves, USDA and Dr. Margaret Mellon, Union of Concerned Scientists. Vendors and exhibitors will be present, with an emphasis on farm-based businesses. Attendees will have the opportunity to learn how to go about seed saving and related seed production techniques. Seed companies and preservation groups will discuss what they need in the way of competence and quality from local seed growers. Field crop farmers will discuss their on-farm breeding of an edible New York State soybean. And plant breeder Dr. Raoul Robinson will discuss plant breeding for resistence to disease as a technique to reduce dependence on pesticides. This conference will inspire, educate and connect all levels of growers to seed saving and production where they live. There are also workshops for vegetable growers on livestock options for the small diversified farm, markets for heritage breeds, and more. For more information about the conference, contact conference coordinator Tammy Hinman at (315)824-2864 for a complete conference brochure. Or look up the conference information on our website at To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 10:23:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07634 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07589 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:44:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM ([204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07572 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.188]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 6724300 ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:45:02 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:46:46 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Government control of money supply? In-Reply-To: <199912231813.NAA26927@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 850 Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... Seriously, though, the US Mint has been criticized for years for having "boring money" (as if that is the biggest complaint about money one could have...me, I always seem to be out of it). So they went on an ambitious plan to spiff up our dough. Makes it harder to counterfeit, too. Plus people like these collectible coins. It does raise $$ for the gov't. Years ago in Greece the government needed money to pay for a royal wedding, so they minted new coins of the happy couple, and of course the citizens collected them and did not spend them, thus driving up the value of the money remaining in circulation. It can be inflationary but usually not on a catastrophic scale. The US mint is even coming out with a new dollar coin with Sacajawea and her baby on the back -- the first time woman and baby have ever appeared on US currency. Mark ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 11:57:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09002 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14876; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14302 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD6.mco.net [209.167.186.26]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05060; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:52:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3867986C.C4822A8C@real.on.ca> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:48:46 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: merry christmas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 851 Please accept, with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all . . . . . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2000, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee. (By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.) Gary Elliott From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 12:08:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09134 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:08:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15735 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:25:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15730 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.132]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:33:28 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:25:00 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Control of money supply Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:46:46 -0500, Mark wrote: >collected them and did not spend them, thus driving up the value of the >money remaining in circulation. It can be inflationary but usually not on >a catastrophic scale. Sorry to be picky, but driving up the value of money is *deflationary,* not inflationary. Simply put, inflation is money chasing goods and assets. Deflation, on the other hand, is assets and goods chasing money. That's pretty much what we've got now. In spite of double-digit increases in money supply (normally quite inflationary) in the world's two largest economies (USA and China) and nearly that in the third largest economy (Japan), the aggregate "inflation" rate in the world's 9 largest economies (USA, China, Japan, Germany, India, France, UK, Italy, and Brazil --- which together account for 70% of world GDP) is a virtually non-existent 0.4%, weighted according to the size of the economy. Money supply for the last 65 years or so has been managed by adjusting interest rates. All currency in circulation accounts for under 10% of the total money supply, so messing with currency (especially coins) has negligeable effect. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 12:27:46 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09820 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA26900 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:52:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26887 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD6.mco.net [209.167.186.26]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05060; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:52:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3867986C.C4822A8C@real.on.ca> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:48:46 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: merry christmas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 853 Please accept, with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all . . . . . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2000, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures, and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee. (By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.) Gary Elliott To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 13:53:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10689 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24568 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:13:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.sterlingcollege.edu (host1.sterlingcollege.edu [209.113.210.66] (may be forged)) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24563 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:13:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by host1.sterlingcollege.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:10:12 -0500 Message-ID: <4198DF658F00D211936E00805F06C537063DBA@host1.sterlingcollege.edu> From: Gwyneth Harris To: "'recycler@eclipse.net'" , Greg & Lei Gunthorp , sanet Subject: RE: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:10:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 854 I'm with the omnivores--and this is purely conjecture, but I'd have to hedge my bets that once you move further from the equator the "omni" moves toward the "carni" side and that the closer you are the more "herbi" becomes the sustainable choice. I think that that's the main thing--sustainability. What's the use in being an herbivore in VT who is limited (in my current situation) to buying even Collards, leeks and winter squash from out of state (hello folks, they're called STORAGE crops for a reason!!) Anyway, I prefer the meat raised or hunted by myself, my family and my neighbours to breaking down and buying Cal-Organic soy. Here's to personal and sustainable choices, and to matching your diet to your local climate and food system. I don't care what my canines and molars are doing as long as I feel good about what I'm eating and the ag system I contribute to.... Gwyneth Harris Farm Manager Sterling College Craftsbury Common, VT -----Original Message----- From: Dave Miller [mailto:recycler@eclipse.net] Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:20 PM To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp; sanet Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Greg, You wrote: > Humans were intended to eat meat. I must say - a lot of 'wrong' ideas 'go way back' - but they're still incorrect....anyway - whichever way you look >From my personal archives: -physically/anatomically/structurally -enzymatically -environmentally - we are either biologically 100% vegetarian or perhaps 98%. Note that much of the following I will say - applies also to the primates, who are clearly closest to us of all the animals...and are also vegetarians, save for very rare acts of combat/dominance ritual related cannibalism. Look at: - humans' lack of claws -lack of fangs - we have long, pouched/puckered intestinal tract -unlike the short, smooth walled intestines of carnivore animals. (and when I say carnivore - I mean "predominantly carnivorous" I say this because ALL animals eat a lot of raw vegetable matter). - presence in our saliva of amylase, a starch dissolving enzyme - in concentrations not found in carnivores. - all kinds of DRASTIC enymes and acid/alkaline differences with clear carnivores, and AMAZING similarities with the vegetarian primates - and other vegetarian animals, I might add! - crushing, grinding molars that are 'wired' to crush from side to side, and optimum!! for chewing leafy greens. - contrast with the jaws of carnivores which are 'wired' to open widely and tear flesh...remember - cats and dogs - though they can thrive on a veg diet - eat grass and other greens when they can - and can even pick the type and amount to 'cleanse' something they ate that wasn't so good for them (dogs can be safely vegetarian, but cats MUST have the amino acid taurine, lest they go blind) - similar alignments with veg - animals re: method of "sweating", pores, "panting" to cool down etc. Likewise - drastic diff. between humans and carnivores here... - let's not depend on that 'gatherer-hunter' shell game. The fossil record shows clearly, and has been interpreted by way better minds than I - that pre-heavy ice age and glacial activity - early humans ate waaaaaaayyy predominantly organic, raw vegan foods!!! - Leafy greens, flowers, pods, fruits, berries, roots, nuts, seeds. Animal protein intake was basically 'stolen' eggs, fish, and occasional small rodents, birds and the like. To me, the theories that make the clearest sense say that - as temperature conditions began to make foraging difficult for longer periods and food/fuel requirements changed - and of course hunting tools/weapons were developed - we began to hunt more - but STILL...the human diet was predominantly organic plant material! anyway - hope to hear your views on this - but I feel it is clear that we are: 1. completely designed to optimize health on a raw or nearly raw, complete vegetarian diet 2. equipped with the free-will to choose to do otherwise, which I respect above all 3. equipped with the hubris to ignore/obfuscate the damage choosing #2 does to the individual, their community/environment, the fresh water supply on planet earth, the topsoil, and ultimately, through massively accelerated destruction of the rainforests, to the very possibility of humans' survival en masse. Recycler Dave To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 16:51:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12320 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00655 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:20:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00642 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:20:20 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.137]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:20:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991227151916.008d7150@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:19:16 -0600 To: Subject: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 855 Anyway, I prefer the meat raised or hunted by >myself, I passed on hunting this year due to the Boston Globe article Misha posted to us. Excerpts are below. As soon as I can implement it, I will be selecting your first option, fed with homegrown grass and grains. Every week there are ads in the local papers for "downer" cows to go to the rendering plant. How do we know those "poorly doing" cattle are not doing poorly due to early TSE??? Now people who spent 6 month or more in Britian are not being allowed to donate blood. Till this all shakes out, I'll be happy to eat my homegrown tofu. Mike Miller > The possibility that chronic wasting disease the TSE that affects >deer and elk has made the leap to humans is what had federal >researchers concerned enough to survey Maine. > > The 28 yearold woman who ate Maine deer died of CreutzfeldtJakob >disease the human TSE. There are only five reported CreutzfeldtJakob >cases per billion worldwide in people 30 years old or under, >according to Lawrence Schonberger of the federal Centers for Disease >Control. > > Yet, since 1996, CreutzfeldtJakob disease has been detected in >three Americans in that age group; two are dead and one is dying. >All three, it turns out, had hunted extensively or eaten venison. > > ''It may be a coincidence,'' said Dr. Pierluigi Gambetti, professor >of pathology and director of the National Prion Disease Pathology >Surveillance Center at Case Western University in Cleveland, where >the Centers for Disease Control sends its human brain samples. ''It >would be imprudent to say there is a danger of an epidemic. But, >yes, it's something that has to be studied.'' To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 18:53:25 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13193 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10478 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:12:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from ems02.energy.wsu.edu ([192.152.10.236]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10395 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:12:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by ems02.energy.wsu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:11:42 -0800 Message-ID: <5A8FC02D049FD3119D590020AFD209CE1B3BDD@ems02.energy.wsu.edu> From: Cristina Love To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: Cristina Love Subject: Energy_Ag NewsBriefs Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:11:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 856 Greetings from the Pacific Northwest... Wanted to let y'all know about a free service that may be of interest to you and/or others you know. The Energy Ideas Clearinghouse* authors a weekly, electronic current awareness service called the Energy_Ag NewsBriefs. This listserv profiles energy and agriculture-related information, as well as emerging trends highlighted in professional journals and web sites. We would like to promote this service for county agents and communication staff, and anyone else that might find it useful. I have attached a sample Energy_Ag NewsBriefs; subscription information is located at the bottom of the message. Please feel free to forward this email along. If you know of other venues where we might announce the NewsBriefs, we'd appreciate hearing of them. * The Energy Ideas Clearinghouse at the Washington State University Cooperative Extension Energy Program offers timely information on energy-related products and technologies; national, state, and local programs; and the environmental aspects of energy use to utilities and their customers who are located in the Pacific Northwest. We have a staff of engineers, and a technical research library available to answer technical questions. **************************************************************************** ************************************************************************ Welcome to this edition of the Energy Ag-NewsBriefs This service brought to you by the Energy Ideas Clearinghouse * Want more information about these topics? * Want to know more about what the Energy Ideas Clearinghouse and its Library can do for you? Just contact the Energy Ideas Clearinghouse at (800) 872-3568, energyline@energy.wsu.edu. You can also search the EIC Energy Solutions Database for technical information at http://www.energy.wsu.edu/eic Due to copyright regulations, we are unable to respond to specific article requests, but we can supply an unbiased selection of current information on the topics of interest to you. Your organization's library or public library may have the journals cited here. If you would like to subscribe to any of these journals, the Clearinghouse can provide subscription information. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This week's topics: Please be aware that although every URL is checked for accuracy prior to the publication of Energy NewsBriefs, URLs are, for various reasons, subject to change. Further, servers sometimes fail to connect to working URLs. AGRICULTURE/ANIMAL HUSBANDRY "New Adjustable Magnetic Coupler Improves Irrigation Pump Efficiency," by Gerald Fleischman. [This new device uses VFD to control motor speed by varying torque instead of varying electrical frequency and voltage.] Idaho Currents, December 1999. At http://www.idwr.state.id.us/info/pubs/Currents.htm , scroll down to this title. "Saving Gallons," by Steve Moore. [A new system saves water and waste water treatment costs by cleaning and reusing waste water from processed poultry.] Resource, November 1999, pp. 13-14. COMPRESSED AIR "Compressed Air: Savings of 30% Are Quite Normal," by the Dutch National Team. [Tips for quickly evaluating the energy use of a compressed air system.] Caddet Energy Efficiency Newsletter, September 1999, at http://caddet-ee.org/co_993.htm . "Electricity Consumption of Compressed Air Reduced by 60%," by Per Kolbeck. [Case Study.] Caddet Energy Efficiency Newsletter, September 1999, at http://caddet-ee.org/co_993.htm. "Power Saving in a Steel Works by Using Less Compressed Air," by the Japanese National Team. [Case Study.] Caddet Energy Efficiency Newsletter, September 1999, at http://caddet-ee.org/co_993.htm. "Variable-Speed Drives Save Energy and Improve Air Quality," by the Australian Team. [Case Study.] Caddet Energy Efficiency Newsletter, September 1999, at http://caddet-ee.org/co_993.htm. "Variable Speed Offers a New Option in Compressed Air," by the United Kingdom National Team. [Integrated into the compressor, VSD offers significant energy savings in medium to light load applications.] Caddet Energy Efficiency Newsletter, September 1999, at http://caddet-ee.org/co_993.htm. DAIRY INDUSTRY "The Quest for Efficient Cheddar," by Eric Nelson. [A minor change, lowering the speed of refrigerator fans, saves $15,000 a year in energy costs.] e2, Fall 1999, p. 2. FENESTRATION "EWC: Updated, Getting Noticed," by staff. [The redesigned web site of the Efficient Windows Collaborative has an extensive section on the selection of windows appropriate to different weather conditions. See the redesigned site at http://www.efficientwindows.org .] The Update, Fall/Winter 1999, p. 8. GREEN POWER "Turkey Power," by Dennis Blank. [Turkey waste fires clean, non-polluting power plants.] Public Power, November-December 1999, pp. 14+. HVAC "Efficient Display Case Refrigerator," by Ramin Faramarzi. [The simplified formulae used in this article enable the reader to judge cooling loads easily. Includes graphs, formulae, and references.] ASHRAE Journal, November 1999, at http://www.ashraejournal.org/features/archives/1999/november/feature5.asp "Recovering Energy, Discovering Savings," by Aaron Gotham. [The author suggests using energy recovery ventilators with conventional HVAC systems to maintain ventilation at acceptable levels without increased humidity.] Engineered Systems, November 1999, pp. 94+. "Up on the Roof," by Ron Woodcock. [Heating and cooling systems that are working to meet design conditions are inefficient. It is better to have systems meeting the off-peak conditions that occur 95% of the time with a way to handle the unusual peaks. Part-load capabilities should have a major influence on system design.] Engineered Systems, November 1999, pp. 80+. "Waste Wonder," by Donald C. Erickson. [Waste heat powers a large refrigeration unit at a petroleum refinery thereby saving 50,000 barrels of LPG per year. Case study.] Consulting-Specifying Engineer, November 1999, pp. 26-28+. POTABLE WATER "Killing Crypto," by Eric Nelson. [Energy use may increase by 20% if water pumped from a lake is also treated to remove dangerous cryptosporidium. Includes sidebar, "Crypto Technicalities."] e2, Fall 1999, pp. 1+. POWER: EMERGENCY/PEAK LOAD/STANDBY "Tomorrow's Utility Today - A Look at What Deregulation May Bring," by Douglas W. Salter, et al. [For a flat monthly charge, a new kind of standby power system seamlessly provides facilities with full, not partial, power during outages.] Prime Power, supplement to Consulting-Specifying Engineer, November 1999, pp. 10-12. SOLAR "Van Melle USA's Manufacturing Facility Installs Siemens Solar System in Huge Rooftop Array," by staff. [This article describes a solar rooftop array on a manufacturing facility.] ENS (Environment News Service), December 7, 1999 at http://ens.lycos.com/e-wire/Dec99/07Dec9901.html. **************************************************************************** ************************************************ The following are URLs for the serials cited above which have Web sites which do not include the specific articles cited in this edition of Energy NewsBriefs (or if they do include them, require an online subscription for access, for a fee or for free.) They do, however, include older articles or other useful information. Consulting-Specifying Engineer http://www.csemag.com (info for free subscription, news, top stories, abstracts of back issue articles - full text of back issue articles is not free.) e2 [energy efficiency - Energy Center of Wisconsin] http://www.ecw.org/e2/ (Back issue feature articles full text) Engineered Systems http://www.esmagazine.com (news briefs, Table of Contents for current issue, subscription info - subscription is free to qualified subscribers) Public Power http://www.APPAnet.org/news/index.html (tables of contents only, free subscription with membership, info for paid subscription, other info) Resource http://www.asae.org (tables of contents for current and back issues; info for paid subscription, other info) The Update (Alliance to Save Energy) http://www.ase.org (much information including fact sheets, etc., no newsletter articles) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Energy_Ag-NewsBriefs is a current awareness service brought to you by the Energy Ideas Clearinghouse Library and sponsored by the Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. To SUBSCRIBE to the listserv, send a message to: Energy_Ag-NewsBriefs-request@listserv.energy.wsu.edu In the body of the message, type: subscribe Energy_Ag-NewsBriefs To UNSUBSCRIBE from the listserv, send a message to: Energy_Ag-NewsBriefs-request@listserv.energy.wsu.edu In the body of the message (not the subject line) type: unsubscribe Energy_Ag-NewsBriefs ----------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 21:30:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14613 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06840 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:02:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06835 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-147.prodigy.net.mx by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNF00142HL82W@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:00:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 19:58:14 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds Subject: Re[2]: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair In-reply-to: <4198DF658F00D211936E00805F06C537063DBA@host1.sterlingcollege.edu> To: Gwyneth Harris Cc: "'recycler@eclipse.net'" , Greg & Lei Gunthorp , sanet Reply-to: Douglas Hinds Message-id: <9832.991227@acnet.net> Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <4198DF658F00D211936E00805F06C537063DBA@host1.sterlingcollege.edu> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 857 Hi Gwyneth, Monday, December 27, 1999, 12:10:10 PM, you wrote: GH> ... this is purely conjecture, but I'd have to hedge my bets that GH> once you move further from the equator the "omni" moves toward the GH> "carni" side and that the closer you are the more "herbi" becomes GH> the sustainable choice. I think that that's the main GH> thing--sustainability. Yes, on sanet, especially, one mustn't stray far from it. Your comment was actually very astute. And it certainly explains how and why I originally got to be where I am. Earlier, Greg Gunthorp wrote: >> Humans were intended to eat meat. I myself would say that anyone who intends to raise hogs certainly intends to eat meat, also. And I am neither criticizing anyone nor evangelizing today, but *have* observed two things of interest: 1).- Most animals (particularly farm animals) that eat meat also eat excrement (i.e., dogs, pigs and chickens); and 2).- Herbivores tend to live longer and smell better than carnivores. On the other hand, I know a woman who never forgave her husband (a judge, yet) for preferring sows - she felt very insulted. His preference had something to do with the higher porcine body temperature, I believe. (I am not making this up). However, each to his own and I'm all for freedom of choice. How nice that we all agree about some things - except Dale. And happy holidays (Dale too). Douglas Hinds - CeDeCoR, A.C. Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil (Center for Rural and Community Development, a non-profit organization) Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx, dhinds@prodigy.net.mx To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 22:02:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14808 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19043 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:35:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19032 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-11-34.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.178]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.9.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA28821; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:37:42 -0500 Message-ID: <000801bf50df$12311980$b25f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: "Douglas Hinds" , "Gwyneth Harris" Cc: , "sanet" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:55:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 I think Sally Fallon and the Price-Pottinger Foundation make a pretty strong case that whole unrefined foods and animal products, grass based animal fat included, in fact contribute greatly to human health. Her books as well as their web site are good reading for those that really want to shed some light on the true nutritional problems of our industrialised food supply. Was the comment about the sow and the judge really necessary? Best wishes, Greg To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Mon Dec 27 23:02:56 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15151 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA13073 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:40:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13015 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.8.149.173] [209.8.149.173] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A2EF78A0124; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:47:59 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991227151916.008d7150@pcsia.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:39:36 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 859 Every >week there are ads in the local papers for "downer" cows to go to the >rendering plant. How do we know those "poorly doing" cattle are not doing >poorly due to early TSE??? Here's an interesting observation that I have been meaning to share with someone for almost a decade. When we first started farming we kept a small herd of goats to clear off land. Sometimes during the winter we would feed them some sweet feed (this was back when the protein level was raised by adding protein from the rendering plant). Soon, we had several goats suffering with 'downers'. Losing one or two goats a year for a number of years. Finally, we got better established and produced our own winter feed annd stopped buying any outside feed for the goats. Within a year we saw the last case of downers and not another case in the decade since. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 01:13:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16355 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 01:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA26494 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:48:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26459 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:48:51 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.183]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:48:50 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:47:47 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 Leigh, thanks for the post. It's the kind of comfirmation I was worried about but it is better to be forewarned than ignorant. You mentioned "this was back when the protein level was raised by adding protein from the rendering plant". Where are these downer cows going now if not back into animal feed? Anybody know? The cat food bag still says meat and meat products and I know some people feed their chickens cat food because it is cheaper. Might this be a big mistake? I put off getting chickens last year until I can raise some feed grains of my own. What about these "protein tubs" that are sold as cattle feed supplement? Where is that protein from? Y2K and GE food is squat compared to this little problem from industrialized agriculture. Thank you for letting us know your experience. Mike Miller > Every >>week there are ads in the local papers for "downer" cows to go to the >>rendering plant. How do we know those "poorly doing" cattle are not doing >>poorly due to early TSE??? > >Here's an interesting observation that I have been meaning to share with >someone for almost a decade. > When we first started farming we kept a small herd of goats to clear off >land. Sometimes during the winter we would feed them some sweet feed (this >was back when the protein level was raised by adding protein from the >rendering plant). Soon, we had several goats suffering with 'downers'. >Losing one or two goats a year for a number of years. > >Finally, we got better established and produced our own winter feed annd >stopped buying any outside feed for the goats. Within a year we saw the >last case of downers and not another case in the decade since. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 04:21:43 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17569 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01874 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:54:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy02.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.41] (may be forged)) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01797 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-179.prodigy.net.mx by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNG009SB0OLX3@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:53:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:50:17 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds Subject: Re[4]: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair In-reply-to: <000801bf50df$12311980$b25f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Reply-to: Douglas Hinds Message-id: <5118.991228@acnet.net> Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <000801bf50df$12311980$b25f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 861 Hi Greg, Monday, December 27, 1999, 8:55:56 PM, you wrote: GLG> Was the comment about the sow and the judge really necessary? It wasn't supposed to be taken personally, although food is a pretty personal issue anyway, and it's hard to compare experiences that one hasn't lived. People tend to read publications that jive with their own line of thought. I thought the sow and judge anecdote was interesting, although once again - I've had no personal experience with sows at that level. But then, in my own case I was raised in the city and didn't farm until I was an adult. In other respects the man involved was a wise judge, as well as being an excellent blacksmith - he didn't forge them himself but was *very* good at putting horseshoes on horses, mules and donkeys (most anecdotes relating to sodomy occur within the latter context, rather than the porcine one). In terms of sustainability (which was what I responded to in this thread, as expressed by Gwyneth Harris), I would have to call the whole thing a dead end - both as a sanet topic and in terms of genetic selection - but then, mules don't reproduce either, poor things. (Perhaps that makes them more energy efficient though - a mule can do the work of a horse while eating only half as much - so the donkey - horse cross does have it's functional aspects). And while there are certainly general differences that exist between the people and the animals I've known and lived with, I can't say that people are necessarily the better of the bunch - although we all - as individuals and as a species - have different skills and capacities anyway, as well sensibilities. >From my experience, animals can be as sensitive as humans to what we might call human issues, including that of compassion. I've never eaten any of my animals though (except the scorpions that bite me - but that's another story), and none of them have ever eaten me (obviously). In the most rural of the farming area I've lived in, people's lives and those of their animals are very closely intertwined and many people there readily share these anecdotes (I could tell you quite a few more, but as stated, they're not particularly relevant to sustainable agriculture). Do remember that bio-dynamic agriculture (for one) does mandate a working relationship between both crop and animal activities, however. There are also cultural as well as economic elements involved. Douglas Hinds Once again, happy holidays. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 06:10:49 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17941 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:10:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04670 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 05:38:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from premier1.premier.net (premier1.premier.net [204.178.176.23]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04664 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 05:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 209.124.207.27 (gnzl-as41-46.eatel.net [209.124.207.238]) by premier1.premier.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA03251 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:41:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38688551.37A4@premier.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:40:36 -0500 From: dick russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Grass Recommendation Needed References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 862 I need to renovate my pastures. Does anyone have, or know where I can find information on recommended seed mixtures for the very deep south (Baton Rouge, La area). Thanks Dick Russell To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 06:49:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18067 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA19335 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:20:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gricmail.gric.com (gricmail.gric.com [207.20.139.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19275 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mecer (cpt-dial-196-2-57-138.mweb.co.za [196.2.57.138]) by gricmail.gric.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA13171 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:19:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000b01bf5125$56288880$0100a8c0@mecer> From: "Fiona Benson" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:18:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 863 Mike wrote: : You mentioned "this was back when the protein level was raised by adding : protein from the rendering plant". Where are these downer cows going now : if not back into animal feed? Anybody know? In the US the legislation governing meat and meat products into animal feed covers ONLY Cattle, Sheep and Goats. I was under the opinion they were completely banned in Europe - but this is not the case as I still see them incorporated in many rations. With regard to your pets - ask your local vet if he has seen an increase in malignent growths and other conditions that could be associated with these types of products. : : What about these "protein tubs" that are sold as cattle feed supplement? : Where is that protein from? Have a look at the ingredient list on those tubs. If it includes: Meat and Bone Meal, Poultry Meal, Fish Meal, Carcasss Meal, Blood Meal, (specific) or Animal Protein Products (collective term) - then the protein is coming from the rendering plant. If the ingredient list includes: Soymeal, Sunflower Meal etc (specific) or Plant Protein Products (collective term) - then the protein will be coming from plant origen. Y2K and GE food is squat compared to this : little problem from industrialized agriculture. You are right with that statement. The continual use of animal protein products (APPs) in animal feed has to be the most important aspect to get out of the food chain. Over the past few years I have studied the sources of these ingredients and last year wrote an article on the subject. I also urged farmers themselves to take the responsibility not to use these products. Remember also that dairy cows, beef cattle, pigs, sheep go down for a number of reasons - accident, virus, bacterial infection, disease or metabolic disorders. It is unlikely that the farmer and vet will have destroyed the animal or let it die without having first treated it with antibiotics etc. These animals were production livestock and of value to the farmer. Other a nimals that go to the rendering plant will be deer carcasses from the side of the road, dead horses and other casualty livestock. Dogs complete with flea collars is another example. If the rendering plant cannot collect the animals immediately the animals will lie out in the sun waiting several days for collection as many farmers are forbidden by law to bury their livestock on their farm. In my opinion, not only are these products poor ingredients from a nutritional point of view for most livestock - we should not be using them at all as we have no idea what problems we are building for the future. Regards Fiona Benson To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 08:12:52 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18900 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA15356 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:34:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15349 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.80] (r-66.186.alltel.net [166.102.66.186]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id GAA16640 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:34:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:40:30 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Minerals in Food Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 864 Dear Mark, et. al., Some organic vegetables DO have more minerals and a better profile of minerals--most notably biodynamically grown ones. There is quite a lot of variation. For example, I grow the sweetest turnips. I grow them as a companion plant in my winter rye cover crops and they never have enough nitrate content to have any bitter taste. If you consider nitrate content as a mineral, then they don't have much of this kind of mineral. But they have enough calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc. to weigh several pounds more per bushel than the kind you ordinarily get in the stores, and commonly they outweigh the organic ones in the whole foods stores too. One of the measures of mineral content, the brix reading made with a refractometer, is usually thought of as a measure of plant sugars, but there is a correlation between minerals and plant sugars that works like this. A plant builds up higher levels of plant sugars when it has enough calcium and other minerals in its cell walls to block the radiation of infrared energy that plants commonly undergo at night. It is common knowledge that sugars build up as a result of photosynthesis, but it is less commonly known that they may convert these sugars back into radiation and give it off at night if they don't have sufficient mineral content to shield this radiation from escaping. Calcium is the most important mineral here, but since such things as boron are essential for calcium uptake and utilization by plants they are important too. What can markedly INCREASE a plant's loss of infrared radiation is nitrogen salts such as ammonia, nitrates, urea, etc. There are huge variations in brix measurements and mineral content between different growers and some chemical growers do a good job here and some organic growers don't. What a lot of people DON'T know is there can be huge differences in the organizational forces present in the growing medium and that this can have a large effect on the quality of what is grown. I'm copying a post I sent to the BDNow! List about hydroponics as it contains some useful even if a bit arcane information about organizational forces. Hydroponics? Consider this. The ether, which is the insubstantial organizational force that permeates substance and is especially rich in organ-isms and organic forms in general (Reich called this "orgone" energy) parallels the states of matter that in an earlier age were called the elements--fire, air, water and earth. As each state of matter becomes more condensed the ether associated with it becomes more intensified. Thus in the radiant, fire state we have warmth as the organizing principle. In the gasseous, air state we have light. In the liquid, water state we have sound or harmonious/dissonant associations of molecules that we know as chemistry. Lastly in the solid, earth state we have the most intense condition of the ether which is known in BD circles as the life ether. Hydroponics grows plants in a solution of water loaded with various soluble chemicals, but this does not provide the most organizational forces. Steiner's second agricultural lecture points out these solid state organizational, etheric forces are most intense in the crystalizing period (in the northern hemisphere) in mid winter when they are received in the siliceous rocks of the earth and transmitted to plants by way of clay. The only way to get these forces in our food is to grow it in soil rather than hydroponic tanks. Thus I don't know of any attempts to pass off hydroponically grown food as biodynamic. There just isn't any way it measures up. So it wouldn't make any difference if it was cheap and efficient, it grows watery food that simply doesn't have that much life force. It is insights like this that set biodynamics apart from the rest of the organic movement, which simply doesn't know much about this sort of thing. Best, Hugh Lovel P.S. I might add to the above that as we have poisoned the earth and eroded its topsoils we have diminished the vitality of soils, the atmosphere, rainfall and the earth as a whole. There simply isn't as much natural life force available as there used to be either for chemical or organic growers. Unless the grower is doing something to replenish the life (organizational) forces in his growing environment the produce will be lower in minerals, sugars, complex amino acids (complete protein rather than so-called crude protein) and so forth. When there is enough water available this produces watery vegetables, but this condition is also reflected by greater incidence of drought, especially when the atmospheric life forces related to fruiting and ripening are deadened by pollution. Then you can have a situation such as we had at our Atlanta organic farmers' market this past summer where the two farms that best survived the drought and had the most produce to sell were both using biodynamic preparations. HL Mark wrote: >While I am an organic gardener, I posted a similar question a while ago >because I too was told that "organic vegetables have more nutrients" than >conventional ones. After many responses from the group it became clear >that this was an old saw that had been passed around for years, and that >the only measurable difference between organic and conventional vegetables >was that organic had more dry matter. While I would welcome information >supporting the claims we have heard, I think advocates of organic >production need to emphasize the clear benefits of the practice: soil >stewardship, safer for farmers and farmworkers and not laced with chemicals >for consumers. > >Mark >---------------------------------------------------- >Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) >An independent non-profit organization. > >http://www.buylocalfood.com > >893 West Street >Amherst MA 01002-5001 >T: 413-559-5338 >F: 413-559-5404 > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 08:12:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18904 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:12:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA15346 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:34:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15341 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.80] (r-66.186.alltel.net [166.102.66.186]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id GAA16479 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:34:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:40:20 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Farm Subsidies? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 Greg Gunthorp wrote: >Not sane. A sustainable agriculture is going to have to include livestock. >What would be sane is a program that does not encourage the overproduction >of grain and instead would produce the sane production of animals in >grass/legume based systems. Humans were intended to eat meat. Humans were >not intended to eat animals that are raised on top of their own fermenting >manure in damp sunless buildings, pumped full of antibiotics, fed animal >by-products, fed the fat from McDonalds fryers etc. > >Best wishes, >Greg Gunthorp >Free range pig, chicken, and rabbit producer As someone who embraced the ideals of teachers like Helen and Scott Nearing and Stephen Gaskin and thought I would move to the country, become a vegetarian and farm without animals, and who thought if we weren't feeding so much grain to animals we could support a lot more people with full stomachs I was in for quite a rude awakening. I found I could NOT farm successfully without animals. Indeed, I couldn't keep the animals away. Bees, earthworms, and everything in between had its rightful place, and I found cows to be right in the middle of this as one of the most beneficial animals in nature. I also found that as I was of type "O" blood I was wasting away on a vegetarian diet and I got down to 135 pounds with way too little energy and too much need to lean on the hoe handle. I ALSO found that the animal confinement operations and all that went into operating them--particularly cash grain farming--was the worst of what was going on in agriculture. But I found that having farm animals didn't mean confinement operations. Those weren't farms. They were animal factories. So now 24 years later I've become a successful farmer who knows how to heal the earth and grow it into fertility and I could hardly agree with what Greg says here more. For the ideologues who insist everyone who has animals on their farm is keeping their animals in slavery and violating natural law by consuming or even wearing anything from animals I have this to say. Learn to observe what goes on in nature and how essential it is to have a balance between plants and animals if you want a healthy, fertile ecology. And learn to do your own thinking. Either that or suffer the consequences of subscribing to a dogmatic mindset. While Dave Miller's proposal (below) has some very good points to it, I hope he will take into account the things I'm saying above. Best, Hugh Lovel >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave Miller >To: sanet >Date: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:01 AM >Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair > > >>Sane or Not? >> >> I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's >>National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of >>obesity and generally improve our nation's health: >> >>* Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal >>agricultural products. >> >> Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and >>dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a >>disproportionate >>share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome >>vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption >>deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food >>dollar. >> >>* USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School >>Lunch >>Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a >>dumping >>ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy >>industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary >>habits >>in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, >>cholesterol, >>and sodium. >> >>* US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education >>in >>schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many >>schools >>welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition >>education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are >>provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between >>the >>USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our >>kids >>never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. >> >> >>* HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting >>healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example >>in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to >>interest groups to improve school lunch menus. >> >>* Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie >>plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip >>service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables >>and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and >>cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies >>fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. >> >>FARM can be reached through the following information: >>FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org >> "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" >> >>Recycler Dave >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >> > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 10:19:05 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20191 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07513 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:54:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07509 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:54:39 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.209]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:54:40 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991228085329.007ef100@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:53:29 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost In-Reply-To: <000b01bf5125$56288880$0100a8c0@mecer> References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 866 Fiona, could you post your article to the lists or give us the reference for it? In the US Legislation you mentioned, does it ban from the specified animal feeds All meat and meat byproducts like bone and blood meal or just those products from Known Infected animals? This could make a big difference in our safety. Also, if deer are being added to the rendering plant mix and the conjecture in the Boston Globe article turn out to be true that the TSE in deer has jumped to humans like the BSE did from the cattle in Britian, then could our poultry and swine industries ???which apparently still allow potentially infected meat byproducts in their feeds??? be the next carries of a TSE to humans? This is not a pretty picture. Mike Miller At 13:18 28-12-99 +0200, you wrote: >Mike wrote: > >: You mentioned "this was back when the protein level was raised by adding >: protein from the rendering plant". Where are these downer cows going now >: if not back into animal feed? Anybody know? > >In the US the legislation governing meat and meat products into animal feed >covers ONLY Cattle, Sheep and Goats. I was under the opinion they were >completely banned in Europe - but this is not the case as I still see them >incorporated in many rations. With regard to your pets - ask your local >vet if he has seen an increase in malignent growths and other conditions >that could be associated with these types of products. >: >: What about these "protein tubs" that are sold as cattle feed supplement? >: Where is that protein from? > >Have a look at the ingredient list on those tubs. If it includes: Meat and >Bone Meal, Poultry Meal, Fish Meal, Carcasss Meal, Blood Meal, (specific) >or Animal Protein Products (collective term) - then the protein is coming >from the rendering plant. > >If the ingredient list includes: Soymeal, Sunflower Meal etc (specific) or >Plant Protein Products (collective term) - then the protein will be coming >from plant origen. > >Y2K and GE food is squat compared to this >: little problem from industrialized agriculture. > >You are right with that statement. The continual use of animal protein >products (APPs) in animal feed has to be the most important aspect to get >out of the food chain. Over the past few years I have studied the sources >of these ingredients and last >year wrote an article on the subject. I also urged farmers themselves to >take the responsibility not to use these products. > >Remember also that dairy cows, beef cattle, pigs, sheep go down for a number >of reasons - accident, virus, bacterial infection, disease or metabolic >disorders. It is unlikely that the farmer and vet will have destroyed the >animal or let it die without having first treated it with antibiotics etc. >These animals were production livestock and of value to the farmer. Other a >nimals that go to the rendering plant will be deer carcasses from the side >of the road, dead horses and other casualty livestock. Dogs complete with >flea collars is another example. If the rendering plant cannot collect the >animals immediately the animals will lie out in the sun waiting several days >for collection as many farmers are forbidden by law to bury their livestock >on their farm. > >In my opinion, not only are these products poor ingredients from a >nutritional point of view for most livestock - we should not be using them >at all as we have no idea what problems we are building for the future. > >Regards >Fiona Benson > > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 10:55:34 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20771 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20775 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:30:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20771 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.182]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:38:55 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:30:17 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Grass Recommendation Needed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 867 On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:40:36 -0500, dick russell wrote: >I need to renovate my pastures. Does anyone have, or know where I >can find information on recommended seed mixtures for the very deep >south (Baton Rouge, La area). In my experience you'll probably be better off 3 times out of 4 (not a scientific number) working to improve the pasture you have, rather than re-seeding. With judicious management of your stocking rates you can usually move the plant assemblage quite a long ways in the direction you wish to go. The usual mistake that gets pastures in a condition where people wish to "renovate" them is *under* grazing. That is, too low stocking rates for too long a period of time (more than about 6 days at a stretch). The cattle keep coming back and *selectively* over-grazing their favourite species, with the result that the plant community shifts towards things the cattle don't like. That increases the pressure on the stuff they do like, and voila, there you are. High stocking rates per acre for shorter periods of time --- say 4 days if you want to be simple-minded about it at first --- will make at least as much difference as reseeding. They'll more or less be forced to eat the stuff they don't like, and the stuff they do like will have a chance to regrow because after the 4 days there won't be anybody on that piece for a month or more. Spend your money on fences to subdivide your pasture, and on tubing to get water to the parcels, and the results will be far more sustainably satisfying than trying to re-seed, only to be back at Square One in ten years. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 12:06:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21885 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16644 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:41:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gricmail.gric.com (gricmail.gric.com [207.20.139.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16621 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mecer (cpt-dial-196-2-58-167.mweb.co.za [196.2.58.167]) by gricmail.gric.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16293 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:39:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <017301bf5151$ec67f520$0100a8c0@mecer> From: "Fiona Benson" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> <3.0.6.32.19991228085329.007ef100@pcsia.net> Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:08:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 868 Mike wrote: : Fiona, could you post your article to the lists or give us the reference : for it? : In the US Legislation you mentioned, does it ban from the specified animal : feeds All meat and meat byproducts like bone and blood meal or just those : products from Known Infected animals? This could make a big difference in : our safety. I am not very familier with the US Legislation, below I will copy a direct quote from the FDA back in 1997 and in a separate email my article. Reports that I am receiving from the US is that this is being strictly enforced. FDA direct quote: "FDA PROHIBITS MAMMALIAN PROTEIN IN SHEEP AND CATTLE FEED The Food and Drug Administration today announced publication of a final regulation that prohibits the use of mammalian protein (with certain exceptions) in the manufacture of animal feeds given to ruminant animals such as cows, sheep and goats. The rule will take effect 60 days after its publication June 5. The following may be used to answer questions. This prohibition is a preventive measure designed to protect animals from transmissible degenerative neurological diseases such as bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) and to minimize any potential risk to humans. No case of BSE has ever been documented in cattle in the U.S. But if a case of BSE were ever found here, these measures would prevent the spread of BSE through feeds by precluding amplification of BSE in U.S. cattle. In January, FDA proposed a regulation that would have prohibited the feeding of ruminant protein to other ruminant animals. In a draft rule published April 17, FDA expanded that prohibition to include nearly all mammalian protein. Like the proposal, however, the final rule allows the use of products believed to pose a minimal risk of BSE transmission. These products include blood, blood products, gelatin, milk, milk products, protein derived solely from swine and equine sources, and inspected meat products which have been offered for human food and further heat processed for food, such as plate waste from restaurants and other institutions. By prohibiting nearly all mammalian protein from being used in ruminant feed, FDA believes it has made the final regulation more practical and effective. Pure pork and pure equine protein are excluded because these animals are not known to have transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), and because the protein is processed so that it is not contaminated by potentially infective proteins. In addition to prohibiting tissues with the potential to spread TSEs such as BSE, the final regulation also requires process and control systems to ensure that feed for ruminants does not contain the prohibited mammalian tissue. The first case of BSE was reported in the United Kingdom in 1986. Epidemiological evidence gathered in the U.K. suggests an association between the outbreak there and the feeding to cattle of protein derived from sheep infected with scrapie, another TSE. Today's final rule caps a period of intense discussion about the most appropriate way to provide an additional layer of protection against the potential risk from BSE in this country. In the last year, FDA has sought comment on the best course of action by publishing an Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, a Proposed Rule and a Draft Rule. The agency has received more than 1460 formal comments on this issue, and has held two open public meetings to discuss the most appropriate course of action. The current state of knowledge concerning TSEs is far from complete. FDA will continue its close collaboration with the scientific community and with pubic health officials, at home and abroad, on measures to reduce the potential risk of these diseases. " End of quote! Regards Fiona Benson To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 12:06:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21892 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16914 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:42:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from gricmail.gric.com (gricmail.gric.com [207.20.139.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16896 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mecer (cpt-dial-196-2-58-167.mweb.co.za [196.2.58.167]) by gricmail.gric.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16311 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:40:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <017401bf5151$fc7b40c0$0100a8c0@mecer> From: "Fiona Benson" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> <3.0.6.32.19991228085329.007ef100@pcsia.net> Subject: Re: Omni Carni Debate - Partial Repost Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:37:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 869 Mike wrote: : Also,if deer are being added to the rendering plant mix and the conjecture : in the Boston Globe article turn out to be true that the TSE in deer has : jumped to humans like the BSE did from the cattle in Britian, then could : our poultry and swine industries ???which apparently still allow : potentially infected meat byproducts in their feeds??? be the next : carries of a TSE to humans? I raise the question in this article that Prions have a long incubation period. Cattle and sheep have a longer life span than poultry. How can we be sure they are not carriers - the answer is we cannot. In my opinion BSE is only one of the potential risks that we simply know too little about. The use of casualty animals that have been treated has to also be a concern. An expert in another country has told me that the rendering industry is very poorly regulated and he is most concerned. Common sense tells me that we should simply avoid these things. Consumers should have the right to know what the animals were fed when buying their meat. We owe it to the animals we are raising to ensure they are in optimum health and fed the best rations that we can come up with. As you will see from the focus of this article, I am involved in the Ratite Industry - but the principals are the same for all species. I had one US nutritionist tell me that I should not be speaking out on these products as they have enabled the mass public to be able to afford meat on a regular basis. That may have been true when the practice first started 40 or 50 years ago. Soymeal as a high quality protein source was not readily available and the APPs were sourced from healthy animals at slaughter plants. In all these discussions it must never be overlooked that the situation has arisen from consumer pressure to achieve their food as cheaply as possible. ================================== ANIMAL BY-PRODUCTS IN RATITE DIETS There have been many writings recently by Ratite feed companies, their employees and nutritionists, about the use of Animal By-Products in Ratite feeds - both pro and con. Most of these articles make reference to many topics that are of great concern to me in our efforts to achieve a sustainable market for our meat products. Ostrich Meat`s greatest selling point is its health benefits as a red meat. To feed them animal protein products from any source, in the light of current evidence, does not in my opinion allow the industry to call it a healthy red meat. I will return to this issue later. Reference was made to the reasons being given for inclusion of' "carcass meal" was as a result of research done in South Africa. As an Ostrich Farmer in South Africa maybe this is an opportunity to provide a greater understanding on the industry here. Until 1993 the marketing of all ostrich products could only go through one channel. Ostrich fanning had been conducted in an atmosphere of not wishing too many ostriches to survive in fear of flooding the market. Therefore maximum production was not a pre-requisite to formulating rations. Many producers outside South Africa are not aware that hide and feathers where the primary products and the meat was sold as a by-product to the meat processing industry. It was not considered of good enough quality to be sold fresh. That is why we still do not have a developed ostrich meat market here in South Africa. For this reason South Africa is NOT the ideal pattern to follow when developing feed rations for high quality Ostrich meat, maximum production from breeder birds, or maximum chick survivability. To satisfy the hide and feather market a 14mth slaughter age was considered the ideal. With meat quality and productivity NOT a consideration. With deregulation came a number of new entrants to Ostrich Farming in South Africa, these farmers have been looking to the work done OUTSIDE South Africa as they were not satisfied with the feed performance and information available from within South Africa. It surprises me greatly that some US feed companies are trying to follow South African recommendations. At the First International Ostrich Meat Congress held at Oudtshoorn 12 months ago a clear message was sent to the industry. That message - if we were to sell our meat we MUST ensure the quality is improved, that the meat contains no animal by-products, no growth stimulants, no routine use of antibiotics and all other "nasties" as perceived by the consumer - OUR CUSTOMERS. Following that meeting a number of our feed manufacturers here in South Africa have listened to the message and now ensure that their feeds are free of such products. Sadly not all yet. Reference was made to the misconception that the animal by-products impart an off-taste to the meat. This is NO misconception! The comment has been made to me by a South African consumer on how he had recently eaten Ostrich Meat and could taste the Fish Meal in the meat. He did not like it. Have you ever been in a cold store where carcasses from animals fed Fish Meal are hanging? It is more like walking into a fish store. In other livestock, feeding onions and garlic will flavour the meat and odour with onion and garlic. Alfalfa and Corn are neutral and do not have strong flavours, but the total rations still needs to be a balanced ration or odd flavours can result. Too much IRON in the diet from other feedstuffs and minerals will cause Ostrich meat to taste somewhat like liver. Liver is high in iron and that is why it has its distinct flavour. Meat quality - meat with off tastes, inconsistent texture, odd colour etc. - was discussed at our most recent monthly South African Ostrich industry meeting, it remains a problem to the development of our industry. A pre-requisite to good quality meat in any species is fast growth rates. The South African formulations were geared to obtaining 210 lbs at 12-14mths. These can be reached by 7mths with a well formulated feed and in time, improved genetics combined with well formulated feed will produce faster gains and larger birds. It is interesting to note the improvements made in the last 7 years by Blue Mountain Feeds Farmers - both in weight gains and overall production, compared to the little change in 150 years of South African farming. Whether or not animal by-products are legally allowed in the feed, we as farmers have a responsibility and obligation NOT to use them in any of our Ostrich livestock rations, including Breeders, as they will go to slaughter someday and be turned into meat for our consumer. In the light of the evidence about the health risks of Animal By-products in animal feeds, we cannot continue to use them. Here a few examples why : "The critical experiment came when Marsh inoculated scrapie infected sheep brain into US cattle. [63] If you do this in England the cows go mad, twitching [16] and kicking into a rabid frenzy. [12] But in America, cows instead stagger to their deaths like downer cows do [65], supporting the notion that a form of BSE is already here in the United States." "BSE has been able to infect and (therefore) kill cats, antelopes, and even ostriches from presumably eating infected protein.[l] Experimentally, one can give BSE to monkeys [56], pigs, mice, sheep, goats [l], and chimpanzees. [8] There is no reason to believe that BSE will not similarly infect humans. [8] So far, BSE has proven more infectious than most other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies. [39] In fact 6 out of 7 attempts to transfer the disease to different mammalian species have been successful. [39] That does not bode well for the human race." "Spongiform encephalopathies are invariably fatal [29] neurodegenerative [17] diseases. There is no treatment [55] nor cure. [18] The novel [3] infectious agents evoke no immune response [50] and consequently slowly accumulate [14] for an incubation period of up to 30 years. [60] You can't detect them [28], isolate them [35], nor purify them. [13] In fact, only an autopsy can tell if you ever even had them. [45] They aren't viruses and they aren't bacteria. [66] The consensus is that they are prions, or infectious proteins. [60] Without detectable DNA nor RNA [41], not only does no one know how they replicate, but the whole concept challenges the basic tenets of biology. [45]" Last year the Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology was awarded to Stanley B. Prusiner for his pioneering discovery of an entirely new genre of disease-causing agents and the elucidation of the underlying principles of their mode of action. The infectious particles that Prusiner discovered, which he named prions (PREE-ons). are made of protein and do not contain any genes or genetic material -- a detail that distinguishes them from all other kinds of infectious agents such as viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites. Prusiner began his search for prions in 1972, after one of his patients died from dementia resulting from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, the human equivalent of "mad cow" disease. He has linked the prions to other degenerative brain disorders including Altzheimers Disease and Kuru in humans and Scrapies in sheep. Prusiner has showed that prion diseases can sometimes be passed from one species to another. This work has taken 25 years. How can anyone be absolutely sure that recycling Animal By-Products back into the food chain is not building up further problems for the future that are still unidentified? The answer is WE CANNOT. Comment was made that bans on animal by-products only referred to sheep and cattle products. This as a result of the link between transmission from sheep to cattle. It must be remembered that cattle have a very much longer life than swine or poultry. When reading the above and the still unknown incubation time of some of these prions, can we be sure that they are not present in swine and poultry, who do not live long enough for such diseases to develop? The answer is WE CANNOT. Before moving to South Africa I was a dairy farmer in the UK. Never did I question what I was feeding my cattle. I trusted my feed company. When the BSE outbreak hit - it was not the feed companies that where blamed by the press even though they where the ones formulating the Animal By-Products in the feed. The blame was attributed to us farmers for being greedy and putting profit before our consumers health and safety by allowing and purchasing feed with Animal By-Products in them. It is clearly evident that the only way feed companies call be forced to change their practices is from pressure from the farmers. The best producing ostriches both here in South Africa and in the US are reared on feeds free of any animal protein products. The technology to replace Animal by-products in feeds has existed for over 30 years - there is NO GOOD REASON for feed companies to be using these products as superior bird productivity and meat quality can be better achieved without them. My ideas and opinions are not intended to do damage to any livestock industry whatsoever. In fact, my concern is to help livestock farmers in general and ostrich ranchers in particular, by asking each to take the RESPONSIBILITY for what your livestock is fed to protect YOUR industry. There is enough evidence about the feeding of Animal by-products to cause a health risk concern. It is the opinion of many that there are FAR TOO MANY DOUBTS regarding the safe use of these products. In the light of the evidence that is available farmers and nutritionists have a RESPONSIBILITY and OBLIGATION NOT to use these products in our animal feeds when the animal is used for human consumption. References I . J. of Nutritional Medicine (1992) 3: 149-151 2. Animal Health Insight (1992) Autumn: 1-7 3. Moscow Indiana Daily News (1993) December 22:1A,3A 4. Consumer Policy Institute Testimony before Joint Meeting of FDA FAC and VMAC (1993) May 6:5-6 5. J. of Agricultural Economics (1992)43(1):96-103 6. Nature (1993) 365:93 7. New Age Journal (1990) Nov/Dec:8-9 8. In These Times (1994) Jan 24:12-13 9. Biological Science 5th edition (1993) by Keeton and Gould 10. Medical Laboratory Sciences (1992) 49(3):216-7 11. Nursing Times (1993) 89(38): 19 12. Proceedings Amer. Assn. of Bovine Practitioners Convention (1992) 24:19 13. Medical Laboratony Sciences (1992) 49(4):334-9 14. Ecologist (l991l) 21(3):117-122 15. Drovers Journa1 (1994) Jan:42 16. Discover(l991) Apr:69-74 17. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:15-23 18. Alternatives 18(3):9-10 19. Nature (l990) 345:280 20. Nature (l990) 343:196 21. In These Times (1993) May 31:12-15 22. Economist (1990) Feb 3:89-90 23. Veterinary Record (1990) Jun 30:632 24. Lancet (1990) 335:343 25. Veterinary Record (1990) Jun 23:626 26. Lancet (1990) May 26:1252 27. New Scientist (1992) Jun 13:9 28. British Medical Journal (1990) 300:412-3 29. British Medical Journal(1988) 296:1581-2 30. New Scientist (1993) Mar 20.5 31. Nature (1990) 345:648 32. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R. Brad1y (1991):179-186 33. Lancet (1990) 336:1300-2 34. US News and World Report (1990) Jul 2:44 35. Scientific American (1990) May:34 36. Science (1990) 249:1492-3 37. Economist (1990) Jul 28:69 38. British Food Journal (1992) 94(9):23-6 39. British Medical Journal (1993) 95(8):22-34 40. Veterinary Record (1992) Jul 4:2 41. Economist (1991) Jun 22:92-3 42. Veterinary Record (1992) Feb 15:146 43. New Scientist (1990) Jun 9:32-4 44. Veterinary Record (1990) Nov 3:440-1 45. Lancet (1988) Sep 10:607-8 46. Bulletin of the World Health Organization (1992) 70(2): 183-190 47. Advances in Virus Research (1992) 41:257 48. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:157-170 49. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:111-8 50. Prion Diseases of Humans and Animals. edited by Bradley B. et al. (1992):285-299 51. Wall Street Journal (1992) Jun 29 52. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:119-121 53. New Scientist (1993) Oct 9:50-1 54. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies edited by R. Brad1y (1991):41-6 55. Nutrition and Health (1991) 7(3):117-134 56. Veterinary Record (1993) Apr 17:403-5 57. British Medical Journal(1992) 304:929-930 58. British Medical Journal (1992) 304:1509 59. Food Microbiology (1990) 7:253-279 60. Lancet (1993) 342:790-3 61. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R. Bradly(1991):195-202 62. Nature (1993) 365:386 63. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R. Bradly (1991):272-274 64. Nature (1993) 365:98 65. Wisconsin State Journal (1993) Sep 26:1C 66. Capital Times (1993) Sep 11:6A 67. Mosby's Medical and Nursing Dictionary 2nd Edition (1986) Regards Fiona Benson To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 12:27:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22197 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21832 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:09:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21828 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-13-11.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.203]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.9.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA04307 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:12:05 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01bf5159$38751680$cb5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: Subject: Price-Pottenger Foundation website Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:30:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF512F.4EAC7120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 870 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF512F.4EAC7120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the web site that I mentioned in a previous email. Dr. Price = did a lot of work studying isolated societies and their health. The = observations are very enlightening. www.price-pottenger.org=20 Best wishes, Greg Gunthorp Small Farm Advocate Visit our grazing pigs online at www.grassfarmer.com ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF512F.4EAC7120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the web site that I = mentioned in a=20 previous email.  Dr. Price did a lot of work studying isolated = societies=20 and their health.  The observations are very = enlightening.
 
www.price-pottenger.org =
 
Best wishes,
Greg Gunthorp
Small Farm Advocate
Visit our grazing pigs online at www.grassfarmer.com
<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF512F.4EAC7120-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 13:08:24 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23125 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03834 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:43:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from THE-SPA.COM ([204.97.227.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03810 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisa ([206.153.193.173]) by THE-SPA.COM with SMTP (IPAD 2.5) id 2500100 ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:44:09 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991228124557.007d24d0@buylocalfood.com> X-Sender: markl@buylocalfood.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:45:57 -0500 To: nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Mark Subject: Two job openings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu id MAA03827 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 871 Here are two job openings at CISA in beautiful western Massachusetts! Director of Marketing CISA is a community organization dedicated to sustaining agriculture in western Massachusetts by strengthening the relationship between farmers and consumers. We focus on environmental sustainability, farm profitability, and on building local and secure food systems. We are a young non-profit with a small staff and an active board. CISA's Marketing Director will oversee a major CISA program, a state-of-the-art communications campaign supporting sustainable agriculture in western Massachusetts. One of four pilot sites nationwide, CISA's project is supported by funds from the Kellogg Foundation, matched by support from UMass Extension, the Department of Food and Agriculture, Hampshire College, and a number of community institutions, banks, and businesses. Successfully coordinating this collaborative venture will require considerable skill in on-the-ground community organizing, sophisticated communications planning, and knowledge of agricultural marketing and distribution issues. Areas of major focus will include both implementation of existing campaign programs and long-term strategic planning for the evolution of this initiative. Duties and Responsibilities: ¨ Campaign planning and oversight in cooperation with CISA staff and Board and the Fires of Hope Advisory Council; ¨ Partnership development: working with the Director and the CISA Board to build and maintain a cooperative relationship with funders, community organizations, institutions, and individuals; the Fires of Hope planning committee; the national Fires of Hope team; and the Kellogg Foundation; ¨ Media and public relations; ¨ Supervision of program assistant, interns, and work-study students. Desired Qualifications: ¨ Commitment to CISA's mission of sustaining agriculture in western Massachusetts by strengthening the farmer/consumer connection; ¨ Marketing, communications, and public relations skills; ¨ Successful track record of media, communications, or advertising campaign development; ¨ Experience with participatory, cooperative program planning and execution; ¨ Experience with marketing for non-profit groups or social marketing; ¨ Knowledge of northeastern agriculture; ¨ Excellent oral and written communications skills; ¨ Strong interpersonal skills. Deadline: January 24, 2000, or until a satisfactory candidate is found. Position Description: Executive Director Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture, Amherst, MA Compensation: High $30,000s to low $40,000s, commensurate with experience. Health insurance, holiday, sick, and vacation benefits. Responsibilities include: ¨ Leadership of CISA's growth and development as an organization; ¨ Oversee the development, implementation and evaluation of CISA's programs; ¨ Help plan and manage CISA's fundraising program, including maintaining relationships with existing funding sources, developing new funding sources, and grantwriting; ¨ Work with the Board to develop an annual organizational work plan and budget, and provide progress reports on plan implementation to the Board; ¨ Recruit, train, hire, supervise, evaluate and terminate CISA staff; ¨ Maintain and strengthen CISA's membership program; ¨ Serve as one of the organization's primary spokespersons; ¨ Establish and maintain relationships with CISA members, state and local institutions, other organizations and individuals concerned with western Massachusetts agricultural, environmental, and community health, and organizations that impact or are impacted by CISA programs; ¨ Assist in recruiting, orienting, and training new Board members; ¨ Perform other duties as specified by the CISA Board. Desired Experience and Skills: ¨ Community organizing and advocacy; ¨ Organizational development and strategic planning; ¨ Fundraising; ¨ Administrative skills/staff supervision; ¨ Participatory, cooperative program planning and execution; ¨ Strong interpersonal skills and an ability to work collaboratively with farmers, consumers, organizational representatives, government agencies and officials, environmentalists, and community groups; ¨ Familiarity with sustainable agriculture and local, state, and national food systems and programs; ¨ Enthusiasm for CISA's mission. Application procedure: Please send a resume and a cover letter highlighting your strengths and experience to CISA, 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002. For more information, call Jaana Cutson at (413) 559-5338, or email jcutson@hampshire.edu. CISA is an equal opportunity employer. CISA is a community organization dedicated to sustaining agriculture in western Massachusetts by strengthening the relationship between farmers and consumers. We focus on environmental sustainability, farm profitability, and on building local and secure food systems. We are a young non-profit with a four-person staff and an active board. CISA's new Director will have the opportunity to strengthen innovative existing programs, broaden our funding base, and continue our transition to a member-based community organization. Current CISA projects include a major "Buy Local" communications and marketing campaign focused on educating consumers about the benefits of purchasing local food and agricultural products; FarmNet, an information and referral service for the farm community; an annual farm map and guide to western Massachusetts farm products; and Massachusetts Marketplace West, a celebration of Massachusetts farm and food products to be held at the Tri-County Fair in September. CISA began in 1994 with support from the Kellogg Foundation's Integrated Farming Systems program and several local organizations, including UMass Extension, Hampshire College, the New England Small Farm Institute, and the Institute for Science and Interdisciplinary Studies. We continue to work closely with other organizations concerned about food, agriculture, and communities in our region. ---------------------------------------------------- Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) An independent non-profit organization. http://www.buylocalfood.com 893 West Street Amherst MA 01002-5001 T: 413-559-5338 F: 413-559-5404 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 14:35:19 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24427 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02793 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:07:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from uranium.nb.net (uranium.nb.net [209.161.64.33]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02709 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7862 invoked from network); 28 Dec 1999 19:07:12 -0000 Received: from cabbage-a-36.warfordsburg.nb.net (HELO cass) (209.161.71.208) by uranium.nb.net with SMTP; 28 Dec 1999 19:07:11 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.19991228140040.00a3eee0@nb.net> X-Sender: cpete@nb.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:07:10 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Cass Peterson Subject: A biodiversity question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 872 Is it true that there is greater biodiversity in a healthy temperate-zone grassland ecosystem than in a healthy temperate-zone forest ecosystem, taking into account the soil microbial community as well as higher-order life? I've either read that or been told it by someone whose word I trusted, but I've been challenged on the statement and now I'm not sure where I got it. Can anybody help? Cass Peterson cpete@nb.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 20:00:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00934 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00898 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:43:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00894 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from recycler (njc1-03-113.dial.psc.eclipse.net [207.207.243.113]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA26466; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:43:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <386959E9.5997@eclipse.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:46:33 -0500 From: Dave Miller Reply-To: recycler@eclipse.net Organization: Concepts In Kitchens, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sanet , "Dolce, Debbi & Marco" , MKM , "Daniels, Penny" , "Chaleff, Judy" , "Stanley, David" Subject: Aromatherapy for Disease Prevention Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 873 I thought you might appreciate this, The Missing Link: http://spiralup.com/m-link-t.htm This is but a very small sample: How many of you know someone who has diabetes? Let me show you what's going on at Cairo University with diabetes, they CURE it. Look here, this is just one of the simple studies that was conducted on diabetes. Blood glucose levels, this was control group with insulin right here. Then they used bitter fennel and it dropped it from over 275 to 200. Common dill oil, Below 200. Coriander brought it down to normal range. Simple Essential Oils. Yes, they're correcting diseases in many places in the world. Look what came off the Associated Press two months ago, very interesting, "Scientists examine role of food derivatives in preventing cancer." Is anyone interested in cancer prevention? Cancer regression? Well look at here: "Soybeans, lavender oil and orange peel" and we jump over here: "Cancer fighting powers of plant oils. Small quantities of lavender have been shown to work against breast cancer in lab animals." In animal studies these say we got both the prevention of cancer and the regression of cancer. How many would sooner have chemotherapy than a bottle of lavender oil? Recycler Dave - Have a great 2000! To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 05:43:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04274 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 05:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04747 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 05:21:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.boku.ac.at (root@mail.boku.ac.at [141.244.7.11]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04672 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 05:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from edv1.boku.ac.at (edv1.boku.ac.at [141.244.7.4]) by mail.boku.ac.at (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11447 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:18:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from EDV1/SpoolDir by edv1.boku.ac.at (Mercury 1.44); 29 Dec 99 11:21:50 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by EDV1 (Mercury 1.44); 29 Dec 99 11:21:49 +0100 From: "HAUSER MICHAEL" Organization: Universitaet fuer Bodenkultur Wien To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:21:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: organic tabacco X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Message-ID: <17AAFA33109@edv1.boku.ac.at> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 874 Dear saneters, I have a request: I am looking for information (web sites, papers, initiatives) concerning organically grown tabacco in both both south (!) and north. I am particularily interested in agronomic aspects (e.g. plant nutrient, soil fertility, pest management, ect.). I apprechiate any hints or suggestions!!! Thanks and very best wishes Michael ******************************************** Michael Hauser Institut fuer Oekologischen Landbau Universitaet fuer Bodenkultur (BOKU) Institute of Organic Farming University of Agricultural Sciences Gregor Mendel Strasse 33 A-1180 Vienna Austria, Europe Phone: (0043 - 1) 47 654 / 3766 or 3750 Fax: (0043 - 1) 47 654 / 3792 E-Mail: mhauser@edv1.boku.ac.at http://www.boku.ac.at/oekoland ******************************************** To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 08:28:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05057 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA04123 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:05:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04059 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive0fm.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.1.246]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29741; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:03:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005001bf5216$7960ac00$f601f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: <3.0.6.32.19991227234747.008d8530@pcsia.net> Subject: commercial animal feed/farm raised animal feed Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:05:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 875 Hi Mike and list, What type of feed would you raise for chickens? Thanks Beth > You mentioned "this was back when the protein level was raised by adding > protein from the rendering plant". Where are these downer cows going now > if not back into animal feed? Anybody know? The cat food bag still says > meat and meat products and I know some people feed their chickens cat food > because it is cheaper. Might this be a big mistake? I put off getting > chickens last year until I can raise some feed grains of my own. > > What about these "protein tubs" that are sold as cattle feed supplement? > Where is that protein from? Y2K and GE food is squat compared to this > little problem from industrialized agriculture. Thank you for letting us > know your experience. Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 08:43:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05133 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA11316 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:26:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl ([62.108.1.115]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11253 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from node11e64.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100] helo=zap.a2000.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 123J7R-00049d-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:26:25 +0100 Message-ID: <386A11C5.21B5A4D5@zap.a2000.nl> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:51:01 +0100 From: wytze X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Subject: NAFTA and TEP will make WTO irrelevant References: <4.2.0.58.19991228174720.00d4ca30@popd.netcom.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 876 > > The WTO will be irrelevant as NAFTA creeps > > across the Americas, Africa and then Europe. > > > > > > "The world will consist of a single deregulated market, > > controlled by multinational companies, in which no > > robust law intended to protect the environment or human > > rights will be allowed to survive." > > > >Still bent on world conquest > > > >Forget Seattle. Our ministers do what corporate lobbyists want > > > >World Trade Organisation: special report > > > >George Monbiot > >The Guardian, Thursday December 16, 1999 > > > >When the world trade talks in Seattle collapsed, British ministers > >indicated that they would never again try to force the world to accept a > >regime which threatened democratic government, developing nations and human > >health. This is the third time they have made this promise: already, for > >the third time, it has been broken. > > > >Eighteen months ago, when the proposed Multilateral Agreement on Investment > >(MAI) first foundered, the British government assured us that it had > >learned its lesson. The new treaty it was brokering would defend the > >environment and developing countries. When that turned out to be untrue, > >and the agreement collapsed again, ministers swore that the environment and > >human rights would be central to any future treaty. Within a fortnight, > >leaked documents show, European officials had decided to shift the entire > >MAI agenda to the world trade summit in Seattle. They did so and, exposed > >and divided at the beginning of this month, they failed. Again, they waited > >less than a fortnight to launch the next attempt to facilitate a corporate > >takeover of the world. At the Helsinki summit of European leaders last week > >the fallback scheme began to be implemented. > > > >European expansion has several potential benefits for the people joining > >the European Union - democratisation, human rights and peaceful relations > >with their neighbours - but these are not the main issues driving > >enlargement. The growth of the EU is one of the two central projects > >formulated and controlled by a shadowy lobby group which has, for the past > >15 years, exerted an iron grip on policy-making in Brussels. > > > >The European round table of Industrialists (ERT) is an alliance of the > >chief executives of Europe's largest companies, whose purpose is to > >formulate policies for adoption by the European Commission. It has, so far, > >been astonishingly successful. The Single European Act was framed not by > >the EC but by Wisse Dekker, the president of Philips and subsequently > >chairman of the ERT. His proposal became the basis of the EC's 1985 white > >paper. The ERT has scheduled and steered the implementation of the act ever > >since. The enlargement plans just approved by the European heads of > >government were mapped out by Percy Barnevik, head of the Swedish company > >Investor AB and chairman of an ERT working group. > > > >The round table insisted not only that the EU be expanded in precisely the > >sequence agreed at Helsinki, but also that new entrants be forced to > >deregulate and privatise their economies and invest massively in > >infrastructure designed for long-distance freight. The EU has agreed to all > >of its principal demands. Until July this year the British minister > >responsible for approving these changes was Lord Simon. Before he became a > >minister, Lord Simon was vice-chairman of the ERT. > > > >The thinking behind these schemes becomes clear when you discover what else > >the corporate lobby groups have been doing. Since 1995, the EC, pressed by > >the ERT and other trade bodies, has quietly been preparing for a single > >market with the US. > > > >The Transatlantic Economic Partnership is a slower and subtler creature > >than the World Trade Organisation or the MAI. One by one it aims to pull > >down the "regulatory barriers" impeding the free exchange of goods and > >services between Europe and America. What this will mean in practice is > >that once a product has been approved in one part of the new trading bloc, > >it must be accepted everywhere. If the US government, for example, decides > >that injecting cattle with growth hormones is safe, Europe will have to > >adopt that as its regulatory standard. > > > >The master plan is now falling into place. A greatly expanded Europe will > >form part of a single trading bloc with the US, Canada and Mexico, whose > >markets have already been integrated by means of the North American Free > >Trade Agreement, or NAFTA. NAFTA will grow to engulf all the Americas and > >the Caribbean. The senate has already passed a bill (the Africa Growth and > >Opportunity Act) forcing African countries to accept NAFTA terms of trade. > >Russia and most of Asia are being dragged into line by the International > >Monetary Fund. > > > >Before long, in other words, only a minority of nations will lie outside a > >legally harmonised neoliberal world order, and they will swiftly find > >themselves obliged to join. By the time the world trade agreement is ready > >to be re-negotiated, it will be irrelevant, for the WTO's job will already > >have been done. The world will consist of a single deregulated market, > >controlled by multinational companies, in which no robust law intended to > >protect the environment or human rights will be allowed to survive. > > > >As the previous failures to impose such plans have shown, schemes like this > >can survive only in the dark: exposure makes them shrivel and die. If this > >new global master plan is to be thwarted, we must drag it into the light. > > > >George Monbiot > >The Guardian, Thursday December 16, 1999 > > > > > > > > > > ............................................. > > Bob Olsen, Toronto bobolsen@interlog.com > > ............................................. > > DEFENCE of CANADIAN LIBERTY COMMITTEE/LE COMITÉ de la LIBERTÉ CANADIENNE > C/0 CONSTANCE FOGAL LAW OFFICE, #401 -207 West Hastings St., Vancouver, > B.C. V6B1H7 > Tel: (604)687-0588; fax: (604) 872 -1504 or (604) 688-0550;cellular(604) > 202 7334; > E-MAIL cfogal@netcom.ca; www.canadianliberty.bc.ca > > “The constitution of Canada does not belong either to Parliament, or to the > Legislatures; it belongs to the country and it is there that the citizens > of the country will find the protection of the rights to which they are > entitled” Supreme Court of Canada A.G. of Nova Scotia and A.G. of Canada, > S.C.R. 1951 pp 32 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 11:44:44 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01160 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17532 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:27:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17525 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:27:06 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.204]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:27:06 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991229102552.007d7d20@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:25:52 -0600 To: Subject: commercial animal feed/farm raised animal feed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 877 Hi Beth >What type of feed would you raise for chickens? Corn, sunflower and flaxseed. Anybody can raise corn and sunflowers but flax requires a weed free piece of land if you won't use herbicides or "managment failure drugs" as I call them. On the flax, I failed bigtime - Green foxtail I think it is called. But like with the Chicago Cubs, "just wait til next year" :>)) I want to modify the omega 3 to omega 6 fatty acid distribution in the eggs by selecting the feed ingredients. See more on this idea at http://www.canadaegg.ca/english/nutrit/omega.html (if the article is still up on the site). Mike Miller To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 11:53:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01280 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18430 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:32:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pop1.indy.net (pop1.indy.net [199.3.65.111]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18426 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from richmo.indy.net (ip209-183-81-147.ts.indy.net [209.183.81.147]) by pop1.indy.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA22216 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:32:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3869EE79.2010@indy.net> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:20:25 +0000 From: Rich Molini Reply-To: richmo@indy.net Organization: OCIA Indiana Chapter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IndyNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SANET Subject: [Fwd: Re: Price-Pottenger Foundation website] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4CF742A95EA" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 878 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4CF742A95EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Rich Molini 2419 East 281st Street Atlanta, Indiana 46031 Phone and Fax 317-984-9600 http://mypage.goplay.com/eiofarm/ --------------4CF742A95EA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3869EE37.2B23@indy.net> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:19:19 +0000 From: Rich Molini Reply-To: richmo@indy.net Organization: OCIA Indiana Chapter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IndyNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp Subject: Re: Price-Pottenger Foundation website References: <000f01bf5159$38751680$cb5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote: > > Here is the web site that I mentioned in a previous email. Dr. Price > did a lot of work studying isolated societies and their health. The > observations are very enlightening. > > www.price-pottenger.org > > Best wishes, > Greg Gunthorp > Small Farm Advocate > Visit our grazing pigs online at www.grassfarmer.com Dear Greg and Saneters, Actually the site you should visit regarding nutrition is www.westonaprice.org Sally Fallon (who was originally with Price-Pottinger) is a very dedicated innovator and mover in renewing and re-educating us of our lost ( more accurately obscured by those who profit from promoting nutritional junk) traditional nutritional heritage and has started her own foundation to get the word out. She was running into real problems with PP because their board was very conservative and was not fond of her banging the kettle against big agribusiness and big business in general. Their site is still under construction but is still very informative with many links. Sally spoke at our Midwest Small Farm Conference (Indiana) this last November and is so very inspiring. She uses terms like the "coca-cola-nization" of America and "Arch Devil of the Midlands" (ADM) in refering to those who seek to profit on selling easy to produce products that supplant the "Nourishing Traditions" developed over tens of thousands of years. That is also the title of her book (2nd ed) which will aid you in understanding and reacquiring those traditions. She shatters alot of myths about accepted conventional nutritional wisdom (including soy), and has plans to develop her own affiliated laboratory for analyzing nutritional content and documenting Price's work. Support her new organization not PP and she will make a difference. Later, -- Rich Molini 2419 East 281st Street Atlanta, Indiana 46031 Phone and Fax 317-984-9600 http://mypage.goplay.com/eiofarm/ --------------4CF742A95EA-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 13:06:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02566 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22348; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:06:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21412 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:02 -0600 (CST) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:54:33 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE9FF9B4@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: CSA list , PasturePoultry@onelist.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Leigh Hauter'" Subject: RE: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:53:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 879 Greetings. Actually, this looks like great news to me. The more adulterated the nation's food supply, the wider the gap between supermarket fare and direct-sale farm products, and the better our foods look to Mr./Mrs. Food Shopper. Legalized food irradiation gives small farmers a tremendous marketing advantage, which may help alleviate loss of market due to the industrialization of the organic foods sector. No doubt, many folks who were borderline SA supporters before will embrace SA now. -Ralph in Tennessee > -----Original Message----- > From: Leigh Hauter [SMTP:lh@pressroom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:34 PM > To: CSA list > Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, > pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than > solving > the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, > according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) > announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, > including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in > which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used > as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. > > Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, > corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and > their > allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to > prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems > associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms from > which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size > slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to > speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, and > too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent > contamination are followed. > > USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat > > While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) on > irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in > facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not have > to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring > they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. > Consumers > of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger > patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. > > Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is > unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food > regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: > > 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the > international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains > simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning is > not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the word > "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such as > "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be > placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is > used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the > declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. > > 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to > have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" > displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or > "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this > "other appropriate device" could be. > > 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the > "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. > > 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, > must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the > finished > product's label. > > 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The requirements > that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than > one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and second, > that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored green > have been eliminated. > > USDA Weakens Food Additive Law > > USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives > (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and Drug > Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. > USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with > FDA > their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule is > the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for > the > food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections for > consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives > from two to five years. > > USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety > > The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No > studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods > is > safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon the > FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the FDA > based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific evidence. > > A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific > literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, they > based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA > task > force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high > enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed Obviously, > since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. > Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of > the > safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization of > food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals > (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. > > Take Action Now! > > Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food > irradiation! > > If you need information about your elected representative, call Public > Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your > Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services > Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the > requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. > > The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 > Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: > www.citizen/cmep) > > Wenonah Hauter > Director > Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project > 202-454-5150 > Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 13:13:08 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02619 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:13:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16783 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com ([204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16765 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.122]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:07:12 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:58:31 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: commercial animal feed/farm raised animal feed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 880 On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:05:04 -0800, Hook Family wrote: >Hi Mike and list, What type of feed would you raise for chickens? If you're far enough north to grow them well, barley (13-14% protein) and hull-less oats (16% protein), along with Canadian field peas (34% protein, do not need to be cooked). One-third of each (plus vitamins & minerals) makes a pretty good starter/grower for younger birds, while a 40-40-20 blend will give you an 18% layer mash. Makes for much better quality birds than the standard corn/soya based ration, and is a whole bunch easier on the land, too. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 13:13:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02623 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13862 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:46:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13795 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNI00ESXK1231@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:48:49 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: [corp-focus] The Corporate Century To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 881 Howdy, all-- Thought some of you might be interested in the Mokhiber/Weissman take on corporations as part of their New Year thoughts. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:49:24 -0500 (EST) >From: Robert Weissman >Subject: [corp-focus] The Corporate Century >Sender: corp-focus-admin@venice.essential.org >To: corp-focus@venice.essential.org >Delivered-to: corp-focus@venice.essential.org >X-Mailman-Version: 1.1 >List-Id: Sharp-edged commentary on corporate power > >X-BeenThere: corp-focus@lists.essential.org > >The Corporate Century >By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman > >As we move to the end of the millennium, it is important to remind >ourselves that this has been the century of the corporation, where >for-profit, largely unaccountable organizations with unlimited life, size >and power took control of the economy and of the political economy -- >largely to the detriment of the individual consumer, worker, neighbor and >citizen. > >Let us again remind ourselves that corporations were the creation of >the citizenry. (Thanks here to Richard Grossman of the Project on >Corporations Law and Democracy for resurrecting and teaching us a history >we would have collectively forgotten.) > >In the beginning, we the citizenry created the corporation to do the >public's work -- build a canal or a road -- and then go out of business. > >We asked people with money to build the canal or road. If anything >went wrong, the liability of these people with money -- shareholders, we >call them -- would be limited to the amount of money they invested and no >more. This limited liability corporation is the bedrock of the market >economy. The markets would deflate like a punctured balloon if >corporations were stripped of limited liability for shareholders. > >And what do we, the citizenry, get in return for this generous public >grant of limited liability? Originally, we told the corporation what to >do. You are to deliver the goods and then go out of business. >And then let humans live our lives. > >But corporations gained power, broke through democratic controls, and >now roam around the world inflicting unspeakable damage on the earth. > >Let us count the ways: price-fixing, chemical explosions, mercury >poisoning, oil spills, destruction of public transportation systems. > >Need concrete examples? These are five of the most egregious of >the century: > >Number five: Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) and Price Fixing. > >In October 1996, Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), the good people who >bring you National Public Radio, pled guilty and paid a $100 million >criminal fine -- at the time, the largest criminal antitrust fine ever -- >for its role in conspiracies to fix prices to eliminate competition and >allocate sales in the lysine and citric acid markets worldwide. > >Number four: Union Carbide and Bhopal. > >In 1984, a Union Carbide pesticide factory in Bhopal, India released >90,000 pounds of the chemical methyl isocyanate. The resulting toxic cloud >killed several thousand people and injured hundreds of thousands. > >Number Three: Chisso Corporation and Minamata. > >Minamata, Japan was home to Chisso Corporation, a petrochemical company >and maker of plastics. In the 1950s, fish began floating dead in Minamata >Bay, cats began committing suicide, and children were getting rare forms >of brain cancer. Thousands were injured. The company had been dumping >mercury into the bay. > >Number two: Exxon Corporation and Valdez Oil Spill. > >Ten years ago, the Exxon Valdez hit a reef in Prince William Sound >Alaska and spilled 11 million gallons of crude oil onto 1,500 miles of >Alaskan shoreline, killing birds and fish, and destroying the way of life >of thousands of Native Americans. > >Number one: General Motors and the Destruction of Inner City Rail. > >Seventy years ago, clean, quiet and efficient inner city rail systems >dotted the U.S. landscape. They were eliminated in the 1930s to make way >for dirty and noisy gasoline-powered automobiles and buses. The inner city >rail systems were destroyed by those very companies that would most >benefit from destruction of inner city rail -- oil, tire and automobile >companies, led by General Motors. > >By 1949, GM had helped destroy 100 electric systems in New York, >Philadelphia, Baltimore, St. Louis, Oakland, Salt Lake City, Los Angeles >and elsewhere. > >In 1949, a federal grand jury in Chicago indicted and a jury >convicted GM, Standard Oil of California and Firestone, among others, of >criminally conspiring to replace electric transportation with gas- and >diesel-powered buses and to monopolize the sale of buses and related >products to transportation companies around the country. > >GM and the other convicted companies were fined $5,000 each. > >These are not unusual examples. Books have been written documenting >the ongoing destruction. The question remains -- how do we put a stop to >it? > >And the answer seems clear to us -- reassert public control over what >was originally a public institution. > >The ideas on how to reassert such control are the subject of debate >and conflict, in Seattle and around the world. But it seems clear to us >that as the twentieth century was the century of the corporation, the >twenty-first promises to be the century where flesh-and-blood human beings >reassert sovereignty over their lives, their markets and their democracy. > >Let us not forget that corporate control was never inevitable. They >took it from us, and it is our responsibility to take it back. > > >Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime >Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based >Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of Corporate Predators: The >Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy (Monroe, Maine: Common >Courage Press, 1999, http://www.corporatepredators.org) > >(c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Focus on the Corporation is a weekly column written by Russell Mokhiber >and Robert Weissman. Please feel free to forward the column to friends or >repost the column on other lists. If you would like to post the column on >a web site or publish it in print format, we ask that you first contact us >(russell@essential.org or rob@essential.org). > >Focus on the Corporation is distributed to individuals on the listserve >corp-focus@lists.essential.org. To subscribe to corp-focus, send an e-mail >message to corp-focus-request@lists.essential.org with the text: subscribe > >Focus on the Corporation columns are posted at >. > >Postings on corp-focus are limited to the columns. If you would like to >comment on the columns, send a message to russell@essential.org or >rob@essential.org. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someday, we'll know how to slay a corporation whenever we need to, as our ancestors learned how to slay woolly mammoths. --Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 13:39:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02889 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA24693; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:39:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24195 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:33:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.11 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:31:08 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: , , Cc: "Leigh Hauter" Subject: Fw: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:03:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0216b0831181dc9CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 882 Ralph Cole wrote: >(snip) The more adulterated the >nation's food supply, the wider the gap between supermarket fare and (snip) >> Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! >> Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Supermarket fare is feeding the majority of Americans, and FDA and USDA have joined hands with : NAFTA, WTO, and the likes of Monsanto, et al. This is backlash coming on the heels of the activities in Seattle against the WTO ..... y2k is not only about computers, people ..... Toni Hawryluk Seattle tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 14:19:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03558 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27887; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:19:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27375 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:13:20 -0600 (CST) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE9FF9B5@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: csa-l@prairienet.org, PasturePoultry@onelist.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Toni Hawryluk'" Subject: RE: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:11:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 883 Dear Toni, I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here (y2k, etc.), but the whole irradiation issue comes down to consumer perceptions. USDA and the major processors will be trying to get us to perceive irradiated food as a good thing (it worked for milk pasteurization). Others of us will be trying to steer the other direction. As long as the perception of irradiated food is that it is somehow less wholesome (which it is), alternative marketers will benefit. Folks who truly have no alternative than to shop at the mega-food store will not have access to the most nutritious food. But that has been the case throughout history, not just since December 14th, 1999. Never has there ever been anything resembling food equity and equality on anything larger than a commune level. Most of us have the ability to change our food sources, we just don't want to go to too much effort to do it. It is a matter of personal priorities. -Ralph > -----Original Message----- > From: Toni Hawryluk [SMTP:tonihawr@email.msn.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 2:03 PM > To: csa-l@prairienet.org; PasturePoultry@onelist.com; > sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Cc: Leigh Hauter > Subject: Fw: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > >> Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > >> Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > Supermarket fare is feeding the majority of Americans, and FDA and USDA > have > joined hands with : > > NAFTA, WTO, and the likes of Monsanto, et al. > > This is backlash coming on the heels of the activities in Seattle against > the WTO ..... > > y2k is not only about computers, people ..... > > Toni Hawryluk > Seattle > tonihawr@email.msn.com > From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 15:00:50 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04024 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14289 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:13:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14285 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE9FF9B5@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: csa-l@prairienet.org, PasturePoultry@onelist.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Toni Hawryluk'" Subject: RE: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:11:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 884 Dear Toni, I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here (y2k, etc.), but the whole irradiation issue comes down to consumer perceptions. USDA and the major processors will be trying to get us to perceive irradiated food as a good thing (it worked for milk pasteurization). Others of us will be trying to steer the other direction. As long as the perception of irradiated food is that it is somehow less wholesome (which it is), alternative marketers will benefit. Folks who truly have no alternative than to shop at the mega-food store will not have access to the most nutritious food. But that has been the case throughout history, not just since December 14th, 1999. Never has there ever been anything resembling food equity and equality on anything larger than a commune level. Most of us have the ability to change our food sources, we just don't want to go to too much effort to do it. It is a matter of personal priorities. -Ralph > -----Original Message----- > From: Toni Hawryluk [SMTP:tonihawr@email.msn.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 2:03 PM > To: csa-l@prairienet.org; PasturePoultry@onelist.com; > sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Cc: Leigh Hauter > Subject: Fw: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > >> Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > >> Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > Supermarket fare is feeding the majority of Americans, and FDA and USDA > have > joined hands with : > > NAFTA, WTO, and the likes of Monsanto, et al. > > This is backlash coming on the heels of the activities in Seattle against > the WTO ..... > > y2k is not only about computers, people ..... > > Toni Hawryluk > Seattle > tonihawr@email.msn.com > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 15:02:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04092 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18207 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:06:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18198 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.165]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16344 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from unity.ncsu.edu (2405p200.ppath.ncsu.edu [152.1.176.53]) by uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/UR01Feb99) with ESMTP id NAA29723; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:06:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <386A4E9C.348EF253@unity.ncsu.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:10:37 -0500 From: Russ Bulluck X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cass Peterson , Sustainable Ag Subject: Re: A biodiversity question References: <4.2.2.19991228140040.00a3eee0@nb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 885 It depends on whether you ask a grasslands ecologist or a forest ecologist! Joking aside, it depends. First one must define "healthy." Is a "healthy" ecosystem based on productivity or biodiversity? A number of relatively recent articles address the issue of biodiversity and ecosystem function: Grime.1997, Science 277:1260-1261 McGrady-Steel. 1997. Nature 390:162-165. Naeem & Li.1997, Nature 390: 507-509. Others have examined different types of ecosystems, and looked at various trophic and functional groups: Hunt et al. 1988. Ecology. 69:1009-1016. Ingham et al. 1989. Biol Fert Soils 8: 29-37. (Probably will tell you what you want to know) I don't have a lot of time right now to get into it. In fact this will likely be my last e-mail to the list until I arrive at UC-Davis for a post-doc. My new email there will be lrbulluck@ucdavis.edu -- Russ Bulluck, Ph.D. Department of Plant Pathology North Carolina State University PO Box 7616 Raleigh, NC 27695-7616 http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/plantpath/Personnel/Students/webpage.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be studied. --Sir E. John Russell The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 15:13:31 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04231 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15148 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:49:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15141 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNI00LHMK4OKD@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:48:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:51:29 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" References: <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 886 Howdy, all-- Mark wrote: >Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality for them. The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and capitalism. Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, and knowledge. The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: "They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The people make it." This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. They are central to rethinking agriculture. peace misha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michele Gale-Sinex Communications manager Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison http://www.wisc.edu UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A bank is a place that will lend you money if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 15:44:14 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04605 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16014 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:55:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from torrex1.theitgroup.com (itcrp.com [207.247.16.114]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16008 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by torrex1.theitgroup.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:54:33 -0800 Message-ID: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE9FF9B4@KNOXEX1> From: "Cole, Ralph" To: CSA list , PasturePoultry@onelist.com, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Cc: "'Leigh Hauter'" Subject: RE: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:53:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 887 Greetings. Actually, this looks like great news to me. The more adulterated the nation's food supply, the wider the gap between supermarket fare and direct-sale farm products, and the better our foods look to Mr./Mrs. Food Shopper. Legalized food irradiation gives small farmers a tremendous marketing advantage, which may help alleviate loss of market due to the industrialization of the organic foods sector. No doubt, many folks who were borderline SA supporters before will embrace SA now. -Ralph in Tennessee > -----Original Message----- > From: Leigh Hauter [SMTP:lh@pressroom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:34 PM > To: CSA list > Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, > pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than > solving > the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, > according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) > announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, > including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in > which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used > as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. > > Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, > corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and > their > allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to > prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems > associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms from > which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size > slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to > speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, and > too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent > contamination are followed. > > USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat > > While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) on > irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in > facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not have > to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring > they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. > Consumers > of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger > patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. > > Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is > unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food > regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: > > 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the > international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains > simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning is > not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the word > "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such as > "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be > placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is > used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the > declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. > > 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to > have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" > displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or > "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this > "other appropriate device" could be. > > 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the > "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. > > 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, > must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the > finished > product's label. > > 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The requirements > that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than > one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and second, > that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored green > have been eliminated. > > USDA Weakens Food Additive Law > > USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives > (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and Drug > Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. > USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with > FDA > their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule is > the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for > the > food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections for > consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives > from two to five years. > > USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety > > The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No > studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods > is > safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon the > FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the FDA > based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific evidence. > > A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific > literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, they > based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA > task > force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high > enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed Obviously, > since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. > Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of > the > safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization of > food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals > (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. > > Take Action Now! > > Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food > irradiation! > > If you need information about your elected representative, call Public > Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your > Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services > Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the > requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. > > The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 > Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: > www.citizen/cmep) > > Wenonah Hauter > Director > Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project > 202-454-5150 > Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Wed Dec 29 16:16:42 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05057 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16152 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from uranium.nb.net (uranium.nb.net [209.161.64.33]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16144 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5502 invoked from network); 29 Dec 1999 20:54:59 -0000 Received: from cabbage-a-08.warfordsburg.nb.net (HELO cass) (209.161.71.180) by uranium.nb.net with SMTP; 29 Dec 1999 20:54:59 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.19991229155022.00a41a70@nb.net> X-Sender: cpete@nb.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:54:55 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Cass Peterson Subject: Re: A biodiversity question In-Reply-To: <386A4E9C.348EF253@unity.ncsu.edu> References: <4.2.2.19991228140040.00a3eee0@nb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 888 Russ Bulluck wrote (in response to my question about which has the greater biodiversity, a grasslands ecosystem or a forest ecosystem): : >It depends on whether you ask a grasslands ecologist or a forest ecologist! > >Joking aside, it depends. First one must define "healthy." Is a "healthy" >ecosystem >based on productivity or biodiversity? "Healthy", from my perspective, simply meant that the ecosystems were functioning without overt human management or mismanagement. The forest was neither being lumbered nor protected from diseases or insect damage. The grasslands weren't being grazed by domestic animals. And like that. Not terribly scientific, I know. Would "intact" have been better? Cass Peterson cpete@nb.net To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 16:57:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05485 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11319; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:57:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10725 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:51:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.50 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:49:59 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: , , Subject: Re: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:22:26 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0c9ab5949211dc9CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 889 -----Original Message----- From: Cole, Ralph >Most of us have the ability to change our food sources, we just don't >want to go to too much effort to do it. It is a matter of personal priorities. Wrong ! **Most** of us no longer are in touch with the soil - we have not been since the 1930's - that's longer than three generations who haven't a clue where to get the seeds to grow the food nor the land or the knowledge to grow the food nor the time or the money to wait while it grows nor the time or equipment to preserve the food or the understanding why it's either preserve the food or not eat it unless you can pay for it out of season. Today's children usually see no further than the TV, computer, or Web screen - so what does that tell you about their parents ? and that's providing that there are two parents - check out the census information if you need to be told what constitutes "today's" most common household. Toni From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 17:58:48 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06086 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16362; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:58:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15801 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:52:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.5.110 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 14:51:32 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: "CSA list" , , Subject: Re: how small/big/diverse *are* CSAs ? Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:24:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0e8133251221dc9CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 890 I hope that you will keep this handy for your CSA files - where do small forms end and CSAs begin ? And why shouldn't these people consider CSAs in the same light as "small farms" ? >Glickman Names Members To Advisory Committee on Small Farms >Sender: owner-smallfarm@reeusda.gov >Subject: Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman (on Dec 6, 1999) named >9 members to serve on the U.S. Department of Agriculture's >Advisory Committee on Small Farms. > >This committee is replacing the National Commission on Small Farms whose >charter ended on July 31, 1999. > >"This committee will be a critical link in the Administration's commitment >to help small farmers and ranchers across the country preserve their >livelihood for future generations, " said Glickman. >"I will rely on this committee to provide insight and input on actions to >strengthen USDA programs that contribute to the viability and growth of >small farms and ranches." > >The advisory committee, authorized for two years, will review USDA programs >and strategies to implement >small farm policy and advise the Secretary on approaches to improve the >Department's programs. > >Glickman appointed Jesse Harness, a member of the National Commission >on Small Farms as Chair of the committee. He is the director of special >programs and associate extension administrator of Alcorn State University in >State College, Mississippi. > >Appointed members include: > >ARKANSAS: Suzanne L. Bertrand- Small Farms Special Projects >Coordinator, >Heifer Project International >in Little Rock; Calvin R. King, Sr. -Founder and Executive Director, >Arkansas Land and Farm Development Coorporation in Aubrey. > >CALIFORNIA: Ramuir Singh- Fruit farmer in Marysville > >COLORADO: Majorie Jarrett--Rancher in Wray; > >IOWA; Neil D. Hamilton- Director of Agricultural Law Center and Professor of >Law; Drake University Law School in Waukee; > >KENTUCKY: Karen S. Armstrong-Cummings--Director, Commodity Growers >Cooperative Association in Frankfort, and member of the National >Commission on Small Farms; > >MISSISSIPPI: Jesse Harness, Associate Extension Administrator, Alcorn >State University, Alcorn State, MS; > >MISSOURI: Harold Eugene Garrett--Professor and Director for Agroforestry, >University of Missouri in Columbia; > >NEBRASKA: Edgar J. Hicks-- President, DHV Inc., Minority owned farmers >commodities coorporation in Omaha; > >NORTH CAROLINA: Archilus L. Hart--Assistant to Commissioner of >Agriculture, Small Farms Agricultural Policy in Knightdale; > >OKLAHOMA: Dayle Larue Aldridge--Director of Small Farms Outreach for >the Oklahoma Landowners and Tenants Association in Taft; >Don R. Crittenden--Farmer/Rancher, Cherokee National Tribal Council >Member in Taklequah; > >PENNSYLVANIA: Marion Long Bowlan-Farmer and Executive Director of >Pennsylvania Farm Link, INC in Manheim, and member of the National >Commission on Small Farms; > >SOUTH CAROLINA: Thomas Joseph Trantham, Jr.- Dairy Farmer in Pelzer, >and member of the national Commission on Small Farms; > >TEXAS: Golden J. Hardy-Farmer and member of Jefferson County Farm >Service Agency Committee in Beaumont; > >VERMONT: Jon W. Anderson--Executive Secretary at the Vermont >Department of Agriculture, Food and Markets in Montpelier; > >VIRGIN ISLANDS: Helen Gonzalez-Farmer owner and operator, Director of >Farmers Feed Cooperative, St. Croix; > >WASHINGTON: Luz Bazan Gutierrez- President, Washington Association of >Minority Entrepreneurs Inc., in Yakima; and > >WISCONSIN: George L. Siemon-Farmer and CEO, Organic Valley >Cooperative in Viroqua. > >The advisory committee's first meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, Jan. 19 and >Wednesday, Jan. 20 in >Room 104 of USDA's Jamie Whitten Federal Building, Building 1400 >Independence Ave., SW here in Washington DC. All committee meetings are >open to the public. > >If you need additional information on any of the members listed above, >please contact: >Dr. E. Nelson Escobar at 202-401-4900; e-mail: eescobar@reeusda.gov > >Thanks > >Denis Ebodaghe >National Program Leader for Small Farms >CSREES Small Farm Program >Phone: 202-401-4385 >Fax: 202-401-5179 >E-mail: debodaghe@reeusda.gov >Website: www.reeusda.gov/smallfarm >Tollfree: 800-583-3071 > >-- > >To Subscribe > Send a message to -- majordomo@reeusda.gov > In the body, type -- subscribe smallfarm > >To Unsubscribe > Send a message to -- majordomo@reeusda.gov > In the body, type -- unsubscribe smallfarm From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 00:06:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01262 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19303 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:29:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19280 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (210.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.240]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA25506; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:32:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912300432.WAA25506@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "dick russell" , "sanet" Subject: Re: Grass Recommendation Needed Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:32:02 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 891 The fact that many on the sanet are anti-government notwithstanding, my best advice for finding the answers you seek would be to call your local Extension Service office and the local Soil Conservation District (the name will be a little different for each parish). At the SCD you will find a District Conservationist with the Natural Resources Conservation Service, an agency of the USDA. Both Extension and NRCS should be able to give you expert seeding and/or pasture management advice. The NRCS may also have financial aid programs to help you implement certain conservation practices, including reseeding, fencing, water distribution, etc. The calls are free, the advice is free, any technical assistance is free, and the only strings to the financial assistance is that you maintain the practice(s) for their life span (usually 5 years for vegetative, 10 years for hardware). The advice you got from Bluestem was in the right direction, but quite simplified (for brevity I'm sure). Bluestem's advice not to re-seed may not be right for your situation, though. If your current pastures are bunch type grasses, they will not recover with just pasture management. However, once you get your pastures in good condition, the judicious use of nutrients and a well planned rotation scheme will get you "in the green" and keep you there. ---------- > From: dick russell > To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > Subject: Grass Recommendation Needed > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 3:40 AM > > I need to renovate my pastures. Does anyone have, or know where I > can find information on recommended seed mixtures for the very deep > south (Baton Rouge, La area). Thanks > Dick Russell > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 02:40:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02229 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15166 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:15:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15161 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.29] (r-66.141.alltel.net [166.102.66.141]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id BAA19306; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:15:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:21:25 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 892 Dear Mark, Misha and List Readers, Really, it's money men controlling government officials that control our money supply. Why do you think so much more is spent on elections than in salaries for political posts? Why do you suppose top officials get cushy Fortune 500 positions upon their retirement? Why is it we are in the mess we are in? In a certain sense what the "brown recluses" at the centers of their funnel shaped webs are doing is performing the service of requiring us to raise our individual consciousnesses or we are mutton on the hook. It's the old story: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Any of us who want to be free have to get used to awareness and quit yearning for its surcease. We needn't think of this as bad. Those who want to own everything, control everything, centralize everything, reduce us to helpless victims, etc. are doing us a favor with their evil schemes. I see an awful lot of folks who want to ignore evil and not think about it, hoping it will go away. Then when rude awakenings come they are paralysed with fear and they perish. Why be naive? Be suspicious! Be wary! Know your hole card! Don't tailgate, and don't hang out in the no zone. Spot the rattlesnake haunts. Know what time of summer a copperhead strikes at anything. Up-end your boots and shake them out well in the morning before slipping them on. The first thing you should do upon boarding a commercial airliner is spot the emergency exit. Count the rows of seats from yours to that door, and for that matter to any others. You may have to get out in pitch darkness with the plane filling with water or burning or some such. If some feeble oldster or some child is seated by that exit, trade seats so you don't have to go over and through them to open the escape if the plane goes down. Pay close attention to all safety precautions. It may make all the difference. The rest is karma--your just deserts. But this much is not. It is the price of admission. Education is expensive and this is your tuition. Don't make light of the "Noah's" who prepare for the worst. Learn all you can from them. Do they seem to be doomsayers or am I doomsaying? Many are not, but some are, and there is a lot to be said for incurring doom by being obsessed with it. So construct a positive agenda and work toward it. Then, with awareness of the possibilities of doom, its avoidance is not so impossible. We see this in events such as the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle. By and large that was a successful effort to hold the predators at bay even if it is only for a few days, weeks or months. The winged, incendiary lizards will be back soon enough, but there is a future as long as we are wary and prepared. Seek awareness and answers rather than automaticity and solutions. Wake up and take stock of what goes on. Passing laws against confidence artistry has never eliminated its existence. We have both more laws against such stuff than ever AND more of it. It is the sleepers wearing rose colored aviation goggles who make easy marks. Seemingly there must be a few devils accruing horrific karma if the rest of us are to expand our consciousness. This is why we have mercy and forgiveness and what give these things meaning. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia Misha's post: >Howdy, all-- > >Mark wrote: > >>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > >Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) > >Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency >is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has >little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe >your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, >etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those >who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality >for them. > >The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to >centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and >merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) >right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some >historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go >hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and >capitalism. > >Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and >destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing >of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, >and knowledge. > >The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful >appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or >withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. > >Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As >Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: >"They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social >processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The >people make it." > >This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the >resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, >and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, >things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention >of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't >have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. > >The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. > >Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. >They are central to rethinking agriculture. > > >peace >misha > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Michele Gale-Sinex >Communications manager >Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >http://www.wisc.edu >UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >A bank is a place that will lend you money >if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 02:40:15 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02235 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16382 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:21:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16339 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.245.41.97.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.245.41.97]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21379; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:21:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3861A1CB.5ABC22DE@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:15:08 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: mineral and vitamin content of vegetables References: <3.0.6.32.19991222094803.007ddb50@buylocalfood.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 893 One thing is absolutely sure: organically grown items do not easily rot, like those grown with chemicals. Instead of rotting, they just dry. You can keep apples, in a refrig, for example, until they are quite dried out, but they don't rot. If called organically grown but rot fast and easily, you can be fairly sure that claim is not true. Mark wrote: > While I am an organic gardener, I posted a similar question a while ago > because I too was told that "organic vegetables have more nutrients" than > conventional ones. After many responses from the group it became clear > that this was an old saw that had been passed around for years, and that > the only measurable difference between organic and conventional vegetables > was that organic had more dry matter. While I would welcome information > supporting the claims we have heard, I think advocates of organic > production need to emphasize the clear benefits of the practice: soil > stewardship, safer for farmers and farmworkers and not laced with chemicals > for consumers. > > Mark > ---------------------------------------------------- > Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) > An independent non-profit organization. > > http://www.buylocalfood.com > > 893 West Street > Amherst MA 01002-5001 > T: 413-559-5338 > F: 413-559-5404 > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 02:40:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02236 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16596 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:23:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16574 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.245.41.97.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.245.41.97]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23432; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:22:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38684732.97BFD2D@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:14:26 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp CC: Douglas Hinds , Gwyneth Harris , recycler@eclipse.net, sanet Subject: Re: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair References: <000801bf50df$12311980$b25f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 894 Yes, but Sally Fallon has some wrong ideas. I have replied to her to that effect, with no response whatever. She speaks of phytates as being bad, because of tying up minerals so people cannot get the minerals. She is obviously no botanist. The phytic acid is a molecule with very exceptional ability to hang onto TWELVE minerals. This is an exceptionally large number, but it is needed because the plant is smart enough to know its seeds are going to have a rough time before they get a good germination spot, so it makes sure the seed has as tough & hard a seedcoat as possible. That is why the phytic acid provides so many sites for minerals to hang onto. At the same time, the plant makes sure that, along with all those mineral sites, there is a spot for also the enzyme phytase, that is the only one that can allow those minerals freedom from the tight grip of the phytic acid. However, when the seed finds itself in a safe spot for germination, it releases that little bit of phytase enzyme, at the instigation of a bit of water. The seed is smart enough to know that moisture is what will start the phytase action, as it starts out on its own life to become a grownup plant, but also realizes that the stored phytase it has will not be enough for the job, so, as the moisture arrives and is able to let more phytase form, the phytate molecule, so greedily hanging onto its 12 minerals, has to start letting them all go free, because the extra available phytase enzyme is busy releasing the 12 minerals. So instead of blaming the hardworking phytate molecule, Sally Fallon should learn enough about the whole affair to just add the advice: Make sure there is enough moisture along with the seeds to be eaten, so the many minerals can be freed for the human's diet. It is not the fault of the smart seed that the minerals are still tied up; the human wanting to get those minerals should be knowledgeable enough to supply enough moisture for the minerals' release. This error or hers keeps coming up somewhere, all the time. =================================== Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote: > I think Sally Fallon and the Price-Pottinger Foundation make a pretty > strong case that whole unrefined foods and animal products, grass based > animal fat included, in fact contribute greatly to human health. Her books > as well as their web site are good reading for those that really want to > shed some light on the true nutritional problems of our industrialised food > supply. > > Was the comment about the sow and the judge really necessary? > Best wishes, > Greg > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- Dr. Bargyla Rateaver http://home.earthlink.net/~brateaver To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 30 02:50:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02277 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:50:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12125; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA10803 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.29] (r-66.141.alltel.net [166.102.66.141]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id BAA19306; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:15:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> <3.0.6.32.19991227094646.007a8340@buylocalfood.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:21:25 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 895 Dear Mark, Misha and List Readers, Really, it's money men controlling government officials that control our money supply. Why do you think so much more is spent on elections than in salaries for political posts? Why do you suppose top officials get cushy Fortune 500 positions upon their retirement? Why is it we are in the mess we are in? In a certain sense what the "brown recluses" at the centers of their funnel shaped webs are doing is performing the service of requiring us to raise our individual consciousnesses or we are mutton on the hook. It's the old story: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Any of us who want to be free have to get used to awareness and quit yearning for its surcease. We needn't think of this as bad. Those who want to own everything, control everything, centralize everything, reduce us to helpless victims, etc. are doing us a favor with their evil schemes. I see an awful lot of folks who want to ignore evil and not think about it, hoping it will go away. Then when rude awakenings come they are paralysed with fear and they perish. Why be naive? Be suspicious! Be wary! Know your hole card! Don't tailgate, and don't hang out in the no zone. Spot the rattlesnake haunts. Know what time of summer a copperhead strikes at anything. Up-end your boots and shake them out well in the morning before slipping them on. The first thing you should do upon boarding a commercial airliner is spot the emergency exit. Count the rows of seats from yours to that door, and for that matter to any others. You may have to get out in pitch darkness with the plane filling with water or burning or some such. If some feeble oldster or some child is seated by that exit, trade seats so you don't have to go over and through them to open the escape if the plane goes down. Pay close attention to all safety precautions. It may make all the difference. The rest is karma--your just deserts. But this much is not. It is the price of admission. Education is expensive and this is your tuition. Don't make light of the "Noah's" who prepare for the worst. Learn all you can from them. Do they seem to be doomsayers or am I doomsaying? Many are not, but some are, and there is a lot to be said for incurring doom by being obsessed with it. So construct a positive agenda and work toward it. Then, with awareness of the possibilities of doom, its avoidance is not so impossible. We see this in events such as the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle. By and large that was a successful effort to hold the predators at bay even if it is only for a few days, weeks or months. The winged, incendiary lizards will be back soon enough, but there is a future as long as we are wary and prepared. Seek awareness and answers rather than automaticity and solutions. Wake up and take stock of what goes on. Passing laws against confidence artistry has never eliminated its existence. We have both more laws against such stuff than ever AND more of it. It is the sleepers wearing rose colored aviation goggles who make easy marks. Seemingly there must be a few devils accruing horrific karma if the rest of us are to expand our consciousness. This is why we have mercy and forgiveness and what give these things meaning. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia Misha's post: >Howdy, all-- > >Mark wrote: > >>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > >Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) > >Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency >is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has >little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe >your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, >etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those >who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality >for them. > >The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to >centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and >merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) >right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some >historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go >hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and >capitalism. > >Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and >destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing >of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, >and knowledge. > >The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful >appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or >withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. > >Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As >Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: >"They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social >processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The >people make it." > >This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the >resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, >and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, >things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention >of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't >have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. > >The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. > >Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. >They are central to rethinking agriculture. > > >peace >misha > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Michele Gale-Sinex >Communications manager >Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >http://www.wisc.edu >UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >A bank is a place that will lend you money >if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 02:55:16 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02295 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16572 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:23:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16555 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-209.245.41.97.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.245.41.97]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24004; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:23:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <386AF858.932E70C7@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:14:48 -0800 From: Bargyla Rateaver X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg & Lei Gunthorp CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Price-Pottenger Foundation website References: <000f01bf5159$38751680$cb5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B2E6BC06739D3DEDE8BE48F8" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 896 --------------B2E6BC06739D3DEDE8BE48F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Dr. Price did excellent work, and the Fdn is to be credited for promoting his work. However, that foundation has not been run by anyone of his stature since, but is actually controlled by much lesser mentality ! It is a pity, because theoretically, at least, it could/should be a real scientific data source, run by a scientist. The only value it has today is that it continues to promote/sell the books that have scientific value===not the kind of activity to which a truly scientific organization would be restricted. It is a pity more people don't know of Price's work. The photos of cats, with and without raw diet, are truly striking. In fact, they are scary---you wonder what you should be eating. Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote: > Here is the web site that I mentioned in a previous email. Dr. Price > did a lot of work studying isolated societies and their health. The > observations are very enlightening. www.price-pottenger.org Best > wishes,Greg GunthorpSmall Farm AdvocateVisit our grazing pigs online > at www.grassfarmer.com -- Dr. Bargyla Rateaver http://home.earthlink.net/~brateaver --------------B2E6BC06739D3DEDE8BE48F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Dr. Price did excellent work, and the Fdn is to be credited for promoting his work. However, that foundation has not been run by anyone of his stature since, but is actually controlled by much lesser mentality !  It is a pity, because theoretically, at least, it could/should be a real scientific data source, run by a scientist. The only value it has today is that it continues to promote/sell the books that have scientific value===not the kind of activity to which a truly scientific organization would be restricted.

It is a pity more people don't know of Price's work. The photos of cats, with and without raw diet, are truly striking. In fact, they are scary---you wonder what you should be eating.

Greg & Lei Gunthorp wrote:

 Here is the web site that I mentioned in a previous email.  Dr. Price did a lot of work studying isolated societies and their health.  The observations are very enlightening. www.price-pottenger.org Best wishes,Greg GunthorpSmall Farm AdvocateVisit our grazing pigs online at www.grassfarmer.com
 

--
Dr. Bargyla Rateaver
http://home.earthlink.net/~brateaver
  --------------B2E6BC06739D3DEDE8BE48F8-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 05:45:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02947 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 05:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA21536 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 05:14:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21527 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 05:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23735; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:13:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912300432.WAA25506@mail.multipro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:09:41 -0800 To: "mikerichardson" From: "Terry J. Klokeid" Subject: many on the sanet are anti-government, was Re: Grass Recommendation Needed Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 897 >many on the sanet are anti-government This was an aside in a posting, but it should be the subject of a focussed discussion. I assert that supporters of sustainable agriculture should be supporters of government. The corporations are anti-government, to promote their own power. They use their media to push an anti-government attitude on the rest of us. The corporations push from two directions- 1. We are told that governments collect too much in taxes Taxes, for a time, used to be progressive. As we accept corporate propaganda, taxes become regressive and tax breaks to corporations accrue, and there are two consequences: 1a Government revenue decreases and so does its power vis-a-vis the corporations. . 1b Government has less to spend on our essential services, such as health, education, public transportation. 2. We are told that government provides poor service This is true, for sure, to the extent that government cuts back to match declining revenues. This is used as an excuse to do two things: 2a Privatise government services, such as telecommunications, health services, and education. 2b Remove regulations. Laws that protect working conditions, fair prices,m and local economies are swept aside. Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm Fulford Harbour, British Columbia amblewood@mail.com The constitution of Canada does not belong either to Parliament, or to the Legislatures; it belongs to the country and it is there that the citizens of the country will find the protection of the rights to which they are entitled. Supreme Court of Canada A.G. of Nova Scotia and A.G. of Canada, S.C.R. 1951 pp 32 To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 08:36:39 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03729 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28090 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:16:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.1starnet.com (1starnet.com [207.243.104.17]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28063 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from joepaloff [207.243.107.65] by mail.1starnet.com (SMTPD32-5.04) id AB2252A0128; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:16:18 CST Message-ID: <001e01bf52c8$0a9161e0$416bf3cf@joepaloff> From: "Minelle & Joe Paloff" To: Subject: sustainable ag Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:16:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 898 Dear Group, I wonder if someone would give me a good definition of sustainable ag. Thanks, Minelle Paloff To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 08:44:57 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03789 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29265 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:22:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29252 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02981 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:24:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sustainable Agriculture Network To: "'sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Course announcement Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:24:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 899 Greetings from Hedgerow Farm in Boulder, CO! (hedgerowfarm@aol.com) Would it be possible to list our program somewhere on your website? We are offering a 10-week practical introduction to sustainable agriculture course through Naropa University (see our website at www.naropa.edu/sustainableagriculture.html) Hedgerow Farm is a 20-acre certified organic farm which includes 6 acres of market garden (vegetables, flowers and herbs) serving local retailers and restaurants, and an 80 member CSA. We can also send our brochure. Please let us know if you are interested, or if you can suggust other websites that would be willing to list us. Thank you! Cheryl Mulholland, program coordinator hedgerowfarm@aol.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 09:46:33 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04372 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20047 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:25:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19991 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.155]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:33:15 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:24:35 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Money supply and reserve requirements Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 900 On 30 Dec 99 16:03:15, Roberto Verzola wrote: >I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and have >almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE REQUIREMENT >OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU >DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? > >If your answer is 90, which is what I also thought a year ago, you -- >like almost everyone else -- are underestimating the power of banks. > >The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 >dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, >dollars. Actually, both answers are wrong. Sort of. And both are right. Sort of. Assume I earn US$1,000 in Peru (the foreign source is important here, since when I bring it into the States I'm *increasing* the money supply by exactly $1000 because it is *new* money to the economy). I deposit the $1,000 in currency in my local bank. Under a 10% reserve requirement, my bank can subsequently lend $900 to someone who uses it to buy a flat-panel computer screen. The screen vendor deposits the $900, and voila, the money supply has increased by another $900 ! And the bank (following the same 10% reserve requirement) may lend $810 of it to someone else. When that $810 is spent and deposited, the cycle repeats at the $730 level, and so on. If you keep on doing this all the way down to the $50 level, the total increase in the money supply will be about $9,550 from the original $1,000. If continued down to the last theoretical dime, the increase in the money supply will be just about $10,000 (including the original $1,000). This is where that figure of lending $900 against $100 comes from. What most people don't realise is that the cycle repeats itself, which is what jacks the theoretical numbers up so high. In *practice,* however, the multiplier is only around 3.5 to 4.0 ---- each new $1,000 brought in cycles far enough to increase the money supply by $3,500 to $4,000 depending on circumstances. What happens is that people hold cash for their businesses or for personal purposes; people spend cash overseas; and so on, truncating the cycle and eliminating the multiplication effect onward from that point. Deflationary environments do funny things to this dynamic. People pour their money into savings (because it will be worth more); people hoard cash (because there is no inflation penalty for doing), and people demand payment in cash (keeping it out of the banking system altogether). On top of it all, few people want to *borrow* money, because the rate of *real* interest is high and they'll have to repay the loan with money that't worth more than what they borrowed --- while what they bought becomes worth less and less. Ouch. The net result is that banks have trouble lending money, even at 0% interest! This is called a 'liquidity trap,' and the Japanese have been struggling with one for several years. Shrinks your money supply in a heck of a hurry. Shrinking money supply is in itself deflationary, reinforcing the effect. Cash is King. Too many goods that nobody wants to buy. Only way to move 'em is drop the price. Most interesting to note, however, is that for every strong deflation in the last 1100 years, the phenomenon has been felt *first* in farm prices. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 10:01:48 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04604 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26620 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:40:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26616 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:40:19 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.136]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:40:19 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991230083903.008bc150@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:39:03 -0600 To: Subject: Anti-government? Whose Government? YAK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 901 I think Terry has a very good analysis of what has happened and will continue to happen with the corporate control of the media and the success of the "eithic of self-loathing" that has been foisted on us at least here in the USA. After all, WE are the government. Remember "of the people, by the people and for the people". Now it is "of the corporate 'people', by the corporate 'people' and for the corporate 'people' ". WHY do we fall for the "hate your neighbor as yourself" routine? Big money controls the government in the US, especially after the two party system died in '96 with the corporate money control of both party's campaign funding. The government has lost something very important - the respect of those governed as I am afraid we may very well learn here in the next couple days. Hugh's post illustrates the attitude of mistrust many of us have in the veracity and fairness of our government. We are almost 20 years into this revolution now. We have children grown to adulthood with nothing but the attiude of me Me! ME!! and money at all costs. Maybe it is poetic justice that the parents of those children who led or at least acquiesced in the destruction of the spirit of community will be the amoung the groups to suffer the consequences. Social Security re or deform??? After all everyone who does not die young will get old and lose their grip on the power needed to protect themselves from the very attitudes they helped establish. I can hear it now "What have you old folks contribed to my bottom line lately?" Like the W2 program in Wisconsin, will the new government order include a 2 year time limit to become a "productive" member of society? Mike Miller, the proud owner of a new bag of catfood containing : poultry by-product meal, beef and bone meal and "dried animal digest". (10,000 flies can't be wrong, your cat should eat ....) That was the Sustainable Ag connection for this way off topic post :>)) > >>many on the sanet are anti-government > >This was an aside in a posting, but it should be the subject of a focussed >discussion. > >I assert that supporters of sustainable agriculture should be supporters of >government. > >The corporations are anti-government, to promote their own power. They use >their media to push an anti-government attitude on the rest of us. > >The corporations push from two directions- > >1. We are told that governments collect too much in taxes > >Taxes, for a time, used to be progressive. As we accept corporate >propaganda, taxes become regressive and tax breaks to corporations accrue, >and there are two consequences: > >1a Government revenue decreases and so does its power vis-a-vis the >corporations. >. >1b Government has less to spend on our essential services, such as health, >education, public transportation. > > >2. We are told that government provides poor service > >This is true, for sure, to the extent that government cuts back to match >declining revenues. > >This is used as an excuse to do two things: > >2a Privatise government services, such as telecommunications, health >services, and education. > >2b Remove regulations. Laws that protect working conditions, fair prices,m >and local economies are swept aside. > > > > >Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. >Amblewood Organic Farm >Fulford Harbour, British Columbia >amblewood@mail.com > >The constitution of Canada does not belong either to Parliament, or to the >Legislatures; it belongs to the country and it is there that the citizens >of the country will find the protection of the rights to which they are >entitled. Supreme Court of Canada A.G. of Nova Scotia and A.G. of Canada, >S.C.R. 1951 pp 32 > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 11:03:32 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05400 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13969 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:39:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pimout7-int.prodigy.net (pimout7-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.180]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13951 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from satellite (LEWSB102-11.splitrock.net [209.253.151.11]) by pimout7-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA357296 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:37:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bf52dc$7e1a5180$0b97fdd1@satellite> From: "Madeline B. Cantwell" To: Subject: Position Available at The Morris Farm Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:34:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF52B1.71142D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 902 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF52B1.71142D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Assistant Farm Manager at Community Dairy Farm in Midcoast Maine Position Description =20 Full-time position available immediately! =20 Background: The Morris Farm Trust, a nonprofit agricultural and environmental = education organization, purchased the Morris Farm in Wiscasset, Maine, = in 1995 in order to preserve the 50-acre working dairy and vegetable = farm for the education and enjoyment of the communities of midcoast = Maine. The Morris Farm Trust was founded on the belief that midcoast = farms must be revived and preserved for generations to come as sources = of food and jobs, education, and as an irreplaceable part of the = landscape and social fabric of New England. =20 The Morris Farm Trust has nearly 1,000 members from Wiscasset and = surrounding towns, throughout Maine, and across the United States. The = farm is mostly pasture land and hay fields, and includes a pond, a = waterfall, several streams, and a small woodlot. In addition to milking = 18 Jersey cows for the organic milk market, growing certified organic = vegetables and fruits, and raising poultry on pasture, the Morris Farm = Trust offers educational programs for people of all ages. The farm has = a staff of six: Executive Director, Farm Manger, Education Coordinator, = Garden & Outreach Coordinator, Orchardist, and AmeriCorps-Teach Maine = volunteer. =20 Position Description: The Assistant Farm Manager (AFM) will work with the Farm Manager (FM) = and the Garden & Outreach Coordinator (GOC) in all aspects of the farm, = including the dairy cattle, poultry, garden, greenhouse, and pastures. = The AFM will also be involved with the raspberry patch and apple orchard = under the joint supervision of the FM and the Orchardist. =20 The AFM will be involved in all educational programs at the farm, and = will assist the FM in the education, mentoring, and supervision of = participants in the farm's new Organic Dairy Apprenticeship program. = The AFM will also work on occasion with a variety of volunteers. The = AFM will have full responsibility for farm operations when either the FM = or the GOC is off-premises on farm-related business and during the FM's = time off. =20 This position covers a wide range of responsibilities and projects with = an emphasis on dairying. Maine duties of the AFM include: milking, = feeding, cleaning, and general care of the cattle and other livestock = (sheep, laying hens, poultry, horses, hog); greenhouse and garden work = in season, from tillage and planting to harvest; fencing and pasture = maintenance; operation and maintenance of farm equipment; and general = maintenance of facilities. As this is a community farm, the AFM will be = expected to interact well and willingly with the public and to = participate in educational programs. =20 Qualifications: -Interest in grass-based dairying -Interest in small-scale, sustainable and organic agriculture -Minimum two years general farm experience, or equivalent agriculture = education credential -Ability to operate farm tractor for basic farm use -Willingness to work with others to accomplish farm goals -Willingness to both learn from others and teach others what you know -Diary experience a plus, but not required =20 Compensation: Annual salary of $14,100, plus full health care coverage. On-site = housing and produce/milk/eggs from the farm. Two days off per week; two = weeks vacation per year. =20 Please contact Christine James, Executive Director, at (207) 882-4080, = or morrisfarm@wiscasset.net =20 Madeline B. Cantwell Garden & Outreach Coordinator The Morris Farm Trust P.O. Box 136 Wiscasset, Maine 04578 (207) 882-8017 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF52B1.71142D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
Assistant Farm Manager at Community = Dairy Farm=20 in Midcoast Maine
Position=20 Description
 
Full-time position available = immediately!
 
Background:
The Morris Farm Trust, a nonprofit agricultural and=20 environmental education organization, purchased the Morris Farm in = Wiscasset,=20 Maine, in 1995 in order to preserve the 50-acre working dairy and = vegetable farm=20 for the education and enjoyment of the communities of midcoast = Maine.  The=20 Morris Farm Trust was founded on the belief that midcoast farms must be = revived=20 and preserved for generations to come as sources of food and jobs, = education,=20 and as an irreplaceable part of the landscape and social fabric of New=20 England.
 
The Morris Farm Trust has nearly 1,000 members from = Wiscasset=20 and surrounding towns, throughout Maine, and across the United = States.  The=20 farm is mostly pasture land and hay fields, and includes a pond, a = waterfall,=20 several streams, and a small woodlot.  In addition to milking 18 = Jersey=20 cows for the organic milk market, growing certified organic vegetables = and=20 fruits, and raising poultry on pasture, the Morris Farm Trust offers = educational=20 programs for people of all ages.  The farm has a staff of = six: =20 Executive Director, Farm Manger, Education Coordinator, Garden & = Outreach=20 Coordinator, Orchardist, and AmeriCorps-Teach Maine = volunteer.
 
Position Description:
The Assistant Farm Manager (AFM) will work with the = Farm=20 Manager (FM) and the Garden & Outreach Coordinator (GOC) in all = aspects of=20 the farm, including the dairy cattle, poultry, garden, greenhouse, and=20 pastures.  The AFM will also be involved with the raspberry patch = and apple=20 orchard under the joint supervision of the FM and the = Orchardist.
 
The AFM will be involved in all educational programs = at the=20 farm, and will assist the FM in the education, mentoring, and = supervision of=20 participants in the farm's new Organic Dairy Apprenticeship = program.  The=20 AFM will also work on occasion with a variety of volunteers.  The = AFM will=20 have full responsibility for farm operations when either the FM or the = GOC is=20 off-premises on farm-related business and during the FM's time = off.
 
This position covers a wide range of = responsibilities and=20 projects with an emphasis on dairying.  Maine duties of the AFM=20 include:  milking, feeding, cleaning, and general care of the = cattle and=20 other livestock (sheep, laying hens, poultry, horses, hog); greenhouse = and=20 garden work in season, from tillage and planting to harvest; fencing and = pasture=20 maintenance; operation and maintenance of farm equipment; and general=20 maintenance of facilities.  As this is a community farm, the AFM = will be=20 expected to interact well and willingly with the public and to = participate in=20 educational programs.
 
Qualifications:
-Interest in grass-based dairying
-Interest in small-scale, sustainable and organic=20 agriculture
-Minimum two years general farm experience, or = equivalent=20 agriculture education credential
-Ability to operate farm tractor for basic farm=20 use
-Willingness to work with others to accomplish farm=20 goals
-Willingness to both learn from others and teach = others what=20 you know
-Diary experience a plus, but not = required
 
Compensation:
Annual salary of $14,100, plus full health care=20 coverage.  On-site housing and produce/milk/eggs from the = farm.  Two=20 days off per week; two weeks vacation per year.
 
Please contact Christine James, = Executive=20 Director, at (207) 882-4080, or morrisfarm@wiscasset.net
 
Madeline B. Cantwell
Garden & Outreach = Coordinator
The Morris Farm Trust
P.O. Box=20 136
Wiscasset, Maine  04578
(207) = 882-8017
 
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF52B1.71142D60-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 11:11:38 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05522 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14651 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:42:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14647 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05682 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:44:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sustainable Agriculture Network To: "'sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu'" Subject: USDA Grants Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:44:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 903 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE NORTH CENTRAL REGION FARMERS AND RANCHERS -- APPLY FOR A USDA SUSTAINABLE AG GRANT ON FEBRUARY 1 For applications, CONTACT: North Central Region SARE 402-472-7081, 402-472-0280 (fax) ncrsare@unl.edu For more information, CONTACT: Ken Schneider Producer Grant Program Coordinator 402-472-0809 kschneider1@unl.edu Lincoln, NE -- The USDA Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program in the North Central Region will award its ninth round of innovative producer grants in 2000. Farmers and ranchers can apply for grants from $5,000 to $15,000 to conduct research or education/demonstration projects that further the goals of sustainable agriculture. Applications are available February 1, 2000, and due April 28. "Response to the producer grant program has been phenomenal," said Ken Schneider, NCR SARE producer grant program coordinator. "Farmers are eager to test their ideas and to learn about new practices and systems from other producers." A total of $350,000 is available for grants of up to $5,000 for individual producers and up to $15,000 for groups of three or more producers investigating any sustainable practice or concept. Part of the grant funds will be earmarked for special marketing and agroforestory projects in cooperation with the National Agroforestry Center and the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service. "As times are tight for our farmers and ranchers, we are offering a chance for them to explore other options," Schneider said. "Economic viability is an essential part of sustainability. Producers are looking at ways to decrease costs and increase the bottom line by cutting inputs or marketing high value products." Nearly 280 producer projects in 12 NCR states have been awarded at a total of more than $1.3 million since 1992. Projects cover a variety of topics, such as reducing off-farm inputs, testing technologies, improving water quality, educating young people or consumers about agriculture, managing weeds and pests, recycling wastes and creating viable markets for sustainable products, among a host of other issues. Applications are available from the North Central Region office beginning February 1, 2000. Producers must reside in the 12-state North Central Region: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota and Wisconsin. Applications are due April 28, 2000. Funding decisions will be made in late-June 2000. Funds will be available in mid-fall for the 2001 crop production season. Call 402-472-7081, fax 402-472-0280 or send e-mail to ncrsare@unl.edu for an application. You can also find the application at www.sare.org/ncrsare on February 1. Results and abstracts from previously funded producer grant projects are available in print and electronic forms. Call the North Central SARE office at 402-472-7081 for a list of funded producer grants and copies of producer reports. Or go to www.sare.org, the national SARE program website, and link to Funded projects to search an online database of project abstracts from producers, researchers and educators. The national SARE Program began with the 1985 Farm Bill. Congress appropriated initial funds in 1988 for grants in sustainable agriculture research, education and demonstration. Funding goes to producers, scientists, educators and public and private institutions and organizations in three grant programs. The North Central Region, managed by a diverse Administrative Council and directed by two regional coordinators, is one of four regions in the SARE Program. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 17:09:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02011 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27819 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27755 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.175.106.124] (helo=[199.175.106.124]) by mail.islandnet.com with SMTP id 123mzF-0004nu-00 for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:20:05 -0800 X-Sender: maroc@mail.islandnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:24:21 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc) Subject: history lesson Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 904 To continue Misha's history lesson.....When your ancestors settled the Massachusetts Bay Colony they did not allow barristers (lawyers) in the Colony even if they were not practicing law. They knew lawyers are the handmaidens of propertied (wealthy) interests. Without morals or ethics they sold their services to the highest bidders. A misconception was the Mass Bay was settled by Puritans. The owners of the Colony's Charter were indeed Puritan, and mostly wealthy, but the mass of others were not, they were chosen promarily for their various mechanical and agricultural skills. One point of great pride in the Mass Bay Colony was their universal school system. You will recall that every village centre had is stocks and whipping post. They were used frequently. Reoffenders often had their ears cut off. One of the most common offenses was refusing to send their children to school. Parents, non-Puritan parents, refused because school was where children were taught to be good Puritans. Within a couple of generations, thanks to the school system and the material benefits of belonging to the Puritan congrgation, New England was solidly Puritan, at least on the surface. Some of the people began to accumulate property beyond their immediate needs and inheritance caused a lot of property (wealth) disputes. Very soon the lawyers were back and the Puritans and not-so-puritans became as litigious as the culture they hated and left. Abstract wealth is the bedrock foundation of our culture. It is guarded and protected by all the laws and power of our state. The limited liability corporation is the practical, operational expression of this abstraction. Don Maroc Vancouver Island, Canada To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 17:09:03 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02014 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24911 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:17:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from billman.kuntrynet.com (billman.kuntrynet.com [207.40.85.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24767 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from GregandLeiGunthorp (tnt-9-10.kuntrynet.com [207.40.95.106]) by billman.kuntrynet.com (8.9.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA11877; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:08 -0500 Message-ID: <00e501bf530e$34f6cba0$6a5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" To: , "Bargyla Rateaver" Subject: Mineral Content of Foods & humans eating meat Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:38:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 905 Bargyla wrote: what data source is usda not giving out? do you not have their manual that lists food content, the quite famous one, Handbook # 8 , I think it is. I contacted the USDA several months ago and asked if they had any sources that listed vitamin and mineral content of food in the '30's or '40's and now. They asked why I wanted to know and transferred me several times (12-15 times, I'd have to check my notes to be sure) to several different departments. Finally, I was given to a woman who didn't identify herself, was extremely rude, and told me that there is absolutely no information available that would suggest that the vitamin and mineral content in our food supply is lessening, that it is nothing more than a myth. As far as God not intending humans to eat meat, here are my thoughts: I read the Biblical quotes that Bargyla provided, and as is quite often the case with anything, I can see several different interpretations to them. When I look at the human body, specifically the dental structure and digestive system, I believe that our Creator had more in mind for us than a vegan diet. There's only one way that we will find out what our Creator meant for us to feast upon, and I'm guessing that when it's my turn to meet my Maker, I'll have other things on my mind besides asking Him if I was supposed to eat meat or only veggies. Lei Gunthorp Pasture hog farmer, homemaker, farm wife & mother (in other words, an endangered species!) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 19:17:40 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03253 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00821 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:06:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00785 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-119.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.119]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:04:07 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:00:25 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15708.991230@acnet.net> To: Roberto Verzola CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: Government control of money supply? In-reply-To: <199912301219.UAA13509@phil.gn.apc.org> References: <199912301219.UAA13509@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 906 Hi Roberto, This is [was going to be] off list because though interesting, it's not a sustainable ag topic, strictly speaking. Thursday, December 30, 1999, 10:03:15 AM, you wrote: RV> commercial banks create money, that is how they make so much of RV> it. OK, Roberto, let's go over this again. You are making a claim that I can neither refute nor confirm at this time. For discussion's sake, let's say banks *do* actually do this. But I don't feel you've explained the mechanism by which it's accomplished. I have to assume that any credit made by a bank is backed by money that has to reside somewhere other than the banks own books. Therefore: I understand you to be saying that banks issue credits that *aren't* backed by money, just as governments can create money that isn't backed by reserves of foreign currency, gold or something external. (This is a dangerous thing for a government to do, btw - it's inflationary and can result in the devaluation of the country's currency, if a lack of confidence results from it, as often occurs. To get away with it even occasionally, a country would have to have a strong, productive economy in other respects. I live in Mexico where this was once done on a major scale and believe me, the results require a heavy sacrifice in order to finally be corrected). RV> I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and RV> have almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE RV> REQUIREMENT OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING RV> SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? Once again: You are saying that the credit system is generated by the banks themselves and that this is in accordance with the legal structure in most economically strong countries? RV> If your answer is 90, which is what I also thought a year ago, you RV> -- like almost everyone else -- are underestimating the power of RV> banks. RV> The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 RV> dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, RV> dollars. RV> If the reserve requirement is 1% instead of 10%, then the banking RV> system can lend from your 100-dollar deposit and total of $9,900. (And RV> not $99, which is the most common answer.) OK, the amount of money a bank can lend is related to the percentage they are required to hold in reserve. What I want to know is, *HOW* can they lend money they don't have? Where do they "get" it? Do they themselves get credit with a central bank? If this is the case, there are undoubted criteria that the bank has to meet in order to qualify, which does not exclude the possibility of that a "bankers club" exists (but that is true in most fields, as well as on sanet). Please be as explicit as possible, including the country you're referring to in any example you give. Banks have to deliver some kind of documentation to whoever receives a credit. You are saying that banks are "licensed" to issue documents that aren't backed by anything except the percentage of reserves then in effect. I know there is an element of trust involved, but am not ready to suppose that the world's "major" currencies are no better than a stock market, where expectations (and rumors) drive investments. The fact that foreign currencies are generally involved in the reserves of a given country, and the fact that banking standards backed by experience are taking effect in more and more countries; would seem to lend some degree of solidity to the cloth of the worlds banking system, at least where major "Prime Banks" are concerned, even if the gold standard is past history and admittedly, none of this guarantees social justice. Please explain exactly how what you describe is done within the European Community and the U.S. economies (which are still setting the pace in finance, for now). Douglas Hinds I am going to post this after all, just in case someone on sanet has a background in finance. But if it isn't taken up, it might be better to answer me off list. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 20:41:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03873 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29459 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:33:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29394 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.192.219.119] by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNK00FORXH4Q3@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:31:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:34:42 -0800 From: Misha Subject: Fwd: [corp-focus] The Ten Worst Corporations of 1999 To: SANET-mg Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 907 Note that three of the ten worst are food system players. peace misha >The Ten Worst Corporations of 1999 >By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman > >Charles Dickens, where are you when we need you? > >Never has "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" served as >a more apt commentary on society than today. > >The NASDAQ just broke 4,000 and has nearly doubled in 1999. The Dow is at >near-record heights as well. Internet, computer and communications >technologies are evolving at a stunning velocity. A lot of people are >becoming incredibly wealthy, and a lot are having fun on the Internet. > >If you want, you can look at this state of affairs and say that everything >is fine. Go ahead, pat yourself on the back. > >Or, you can look at a different set of snapshots and ask these and many >other probing questions: > >Why does the United States, the richest nation in the history of the >world, warehouse its elderly in what are euphemistically called nursing >homes, permitting many to live out their last years in social isolation >and sometimes filth and neglect? > >Why are profitable and fast-growing corporations permitted to expose their >workers to dangerous and life-threatening conditions that could be avoided >with minimal investments? > >Why are the poor, undereducated and unsophisticated subject to a host of >financial scams that empty their small savings accounts or throw them into >debt? > >Why are working people in the United State who try to organize into unions >regularly subjected to threats of firing and plant closure, harassment, >intimidation and managerial refusal to bargain with duly elected unions? > >Why does the United States permit the massive concentration of economic >and political power through mergers and acquisitions that work to >foreclose democratic options for the future? > >Why do rich societies permit their corporations to engage, directly or >indirectly, through contractors and subcontractors, in brutally >exploitative practices in developing countries -- practices that have long >been outlawed in the rich countries? > >Why indeed. > >There is of course no one single answer to these and the many other >critical questions that should be asked in a society that does so much to >generate wealth, at least as measured by conventional standards, but so >little to distribute that wealth -- or justice -- evenly. But there is one >connecting theme that serves, at least, as a partial answer to many of >these questions: concentrated corporate power. > >Each year, to highlight the consequences of corporations and greed run >amok, Multinational Monitor publishes a list of the 10 worst corporations >of the year. > >Here's this year's list, in alphabetical order: > >Avondale: Good riddance > >For more than half a decade, Avondale, which operates a shipyard in New >Orleans, waged a vicious campaign to block recognition of its employees' >desire for a union -- a desire springing in no small part from way below >industry standard wages and a gruesome workplace casualty record of a >death a year. In August, Avondale was acquired by Litton, which agreed to >recognize the workers' union in November. > >Citigroup: The standard in political corruption > >Citigroup played the lead role in ushering the "Financial Services >Modernization Act" through the U.S. Congress, in the process joining with >the rest of the financial services industry to set a new standard in >legalized bribery. The Act will tear down the regulatory walls between >banks, and insurance companies and securities firms, paving the massive >concentration of financial wealth and a future of industry bailouts, >weakening the Community Reinvestment Act and permitting huge intrusions on >consumer privacy. > >Del Monte: Banana imperialism into the twenty-first century > >In September, Bandegua, the Guatemalan subsidiary of Coral Gables, >Florida-based Fresh Del Monte Produce (now a separate company from >California-based Del Monte Foods), dismissed 900 of its banana workers. >When other unionized Bandegua workers tried to organize a solidarity >protest, the union leadership was met with a 200-person, armed goon squad >which chased the leadership out of town, threatening to kill them if they >returned. Del Monte and Bandegua deny responsibility, but they have >certainly benefited from the threats. > >Guardian Postacute: Maggots everywhere > >After learning that of Guardian Postacute Services Inc., a San Francisco >Bay area nursing home chain, had permitted dirty feeding tubes to be >installed into patients who then became infested with maggots, had >permitted patients to lie for extended periods in their urine and feces, >and had failed to take strong action against an employee who sexually >abused patients, Santa Clara County Deputy District Attorney Randy Hey has >filed criminal charges against Guardian. > >Hoffman La Roche: Take the market, pay the fine > >Earlier this year, the Swiss pharmaceutical giant F. Hoffmann-La Roche >Ltd. paid $500 million -- the largest fine in U.S. antitrust history -- >for its efforts with German chemical maker BASF to allocate market shares >for certain vitamins sold in the United States and elsewhere. The >whistleblower who inspired the case says Roche's response to the fines was >to redouble its efforts to gain total control of the vitamin market. > >Tosco: Four dead workers > >On February 23, 1999, four workers at a Tosco Corp. facility in Avon, >California were burned to death after they tried to replace a leaky oil >pipe. The San Francisco Chronicle reported that one Tosco employee, >Anthony Creggett, claimed shortly after the fire that plant managers had >refused a request by four workers to shut down the high-temperature >distillation tower during the repairs on the pipe. > >Tyson: Seven deaths in seven months > >Maybe we should consider raising our own chickens. Clearly, relying on >multinational corporations to raise millions of birds for us in unsanitary >and dangerous conditions is not working out. Tysons Foods is a case in >point. Do you really want to buy your chicken from these people? Consider >this: seven workers have been killed at Tyson facilities this year. There >have been no reported job-related deaths at any other poultry company in >1999. > >U.S. Bank: Big brother is watching > >Earlier this year, U.S. Bank agreed to stop selling its customers' >personal data -- everything from social security numbers to account >balances, from birth date to number of credit cards -- to a telemarketing >firm. But that came only after Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch filed >a lawsuit against U.S. Bank, alleging it violated the federal Fair Credit >Reporting Act and engaged in consumer fraud and deceptive advertising. > >Whirlpool: Preying on the poor > >Earlier this year, an Alabama jury hit a recently spun off Whirlpool >subsidiary, Whirlpool Financial, and one of its dealers with a $581 >million verdict for targeting illiterate and poor people in a sales scheme >involving satellite television dishes. Lawyers representing the victims >said that Whirlpool had dealers all over the state going door-to-door >soliciting poor, unsophisticated and elderly customers to purchase >satellite television dishes for $1,100 plus 22 percent interest. The same >equipment could be bought at an electronics store for $199. On appeal, an >Alabama appellate court agreed only to knock the verdict down to $301 >million. > >W.R. Grace: You can't eat enough of it > >At least 192 people have died of asbestos-related disease from a mine near >Libby, Montana that was owned by W.R. Grace for nearly 30 years, according >to a report that appeared in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. At least >another 375 have been diagnosed with the fatal disease. For three decades, >Grace mined enormous deposits of vermiculite in the earth of nearby >Zonolite Mountain. Under the vermiculite are millions of tons of >tremolite, a rare and exceedingly toxic form of asbestos. Community >residents say Grace for years told residents and workers that the dust was >harmless. "When my father was a young man they told him, 'You can't eat >enough of that stuff. It won't bother you. He's dead,'" Patrick Vinion, a >Libby resident, says. Now Vinion, who never worked as a miner, is himself >dying from asbestos-related disease. > > >Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime >Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based >Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of Corporate Predators: The >Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy (Monroe, Maine: Common >Courage Press, 1999, http://www.corporatepredators.org) > >(c) Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 21:45:00 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04367 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05562 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:59:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05505 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.152]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:07:13 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 01:58:33 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Money supply and reserve requirements Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 908 On 31 Dec 99 08:24:35, Roberto Verzola wrote: > >Actually, both answers are wrong. Sort of. And both are right. Sort > >of. > >As I said, until one appreciates why this is so, one underestimates >the power of banks to CREATE money. The 90 answer is not "sort of >right"; it is wrong, period. Overall, Roberto and I are not in disagreement. The above statement is completely right for any given deposit. It is wrong for the whole picture. Sure sounds like "sort of" to me. In the sense of incompletely right. >The 900 answer is the maximum, as I was careful to point out. It is >not a "sort of wrong" answer, but the correct theoretical maximum. >If it isn't reached, it is because not all banks reach their maximum >target lending. But that simply means the banking system can lend more >until it reaches the theoretical maximum. They *don't* reach the theoretical maximum, but consistently only about 40% of it. Sure sounds like "sort of" wrong to me. >This is not about bringing in money from abroad, but about local cash >deposited by local citizens. I repeat: from a *local* $100 deposit, >the banking system can lend a maximum of $900, given a 10% reserve >requirement. Yes, technically true. I chose to start with absolutely new money to the system. Local cash is somewhere in the multiplier phenomenon, so I merely tried to simplifiy the example by taking that component out of the equation. Doesn't change a thing. >Understand why this is so, and you'd know the real secret of how banks >simply CREATE money. The rest are details. > >I've been asked: then why do some banks fail? Banks fail because their >owners/managers are not happy enough making such easy money legally. >They get too greedy and do illegal things like lending to their own >companies and pocketing the cash, done elaborately of course to make >it seem legal. More often they get in trouble because in a pinch the supposed value of the underlying assets against which they have lent that money they allegedly "created" is simply insufficient to cover the amount they have lent. This happens periodically with real estate. Good bankers lend against cash flow, not against assets. They take a lien on the assets to provide extra security if the cash flow doesn't materialise. Bankers lending money for folks to buy 145 bushel corn ground at $3500 per acre have their heads up their butts. The average newly minted MBA banker working for some commercial outfit nested six layers deep was three or four years old the last time ag land values took a crapper. From his point of view it might just as well have been in 1742. People don't learn from history, *that's* what consistently gets banks (and everybody else) in $#!^load of trouble. Banks make money not only on *fees,* but on the spread between what they pay in interest and what they take in. Much of their reserve they'll keep with the Federal Reserve (Bank of Canada, whatever) at pre-determined interest. that's why it's called the Federal *Reserve* ssystem --- these guys don't keep much of their resesrves in their own vaults, after all. So you're a banker, you take in a thousand bucks at 1% (if the depositer is ignorant) to 4% (money market account), let's say 3%. You lend out $900 at prime (let's call it 8% to make things easy). Pay out $30 for a year, take in $72, plus whatever you get from the Fed. Not bad. If the spread is good enough (it currently is) you make money, and it is to your advantage to lend a *lot* of money, right up to the officially established reserve limits. If, however, people stop borrowing (as they usually do in deflation) things get very ugly, very quickly for the banks. They lose their spread because nobody borrows money, and the value of their underlying assets collapses at the very moment their borrowers' cash flow has headed south. Remember, all debts are eventually paid, either by the borrower or the lender. When there is an epidemic of bad balance sheets (as I believe there is now) the only two options are to inflate the debt away, or deflate it away by writing it off. The usual result when governments try to inflate a debt away is that the government is overthrown. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 21:45:01 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04369 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06202 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:04:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from cfi_main_02.cfarm.com (cfi_main_02.cfarm.com [204.57.236.21]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06194 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by cfi_main_02.cfarm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:48:55 -0800 Message-ID: <9565EC3DEE37D211886A00A0C9D5DCE3D96EA3@cfi_main_02.cfarm.com> From: "McERLICH, ALEC" To: "'Bluestem Associates'" , sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Low-risk pesticides ... Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:48:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF5331.317A8D22" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 909 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF5331.317A8D22 Content-Type: text/plain On Dec 20 Bart wrote; > On a somewhat more philosphical but related note, can someone who > understands the current 'logic' of the organic bureaucracy explain to > me why organic agriculture prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist > like T-22 (Trichoderma harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion > techniques used to improve the strain is "genetic engineering," while > they continue to approve Bordeaux mixture with its known negative > impact on earthworms? > [McERLICH, ALEC] Here is your "honest-to-goodness answer, not philosophy ..." Organic agriculture does not prohibit T-22. OMRI approved the product a few months ago (see OMRI Update Sept '99). WSDA approved the material in early 1999.I believe misinformation formed the basis of the "logic". I suggest you talk to Bio-Works, the manufacturers, to get the real story (315) 781-1703. Cheers Alec McErlich, Cascadian Farm. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF5331.317A8D22 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Low-risk pesticides ...

On Dec 20 Bart = wrote;

     On a somewhat more philosphical = but related note, can someone who
     understands the current 'logic' = of the organic bureaucracy explain to
     me why organic agriculture = prohibits an excellent fungal antagonist
     like T-22 (Trichoderma = harzianum) on the basis that the nuclear fusion
     techniques used to improve the = strain  is "genetic engineering," while
     they continue to approve = Bordeaux mixture with its known negative
     impact on earthworms?

[McERLICH, = ALEC]  Here is your "honest-to-goodness answer, not = philosophy ..."
Organic agriculture = does not prohibit T-22. OMRI approved the product a few months ago (see = OMRI Update Sept '99). WSDA approved the material in early 1999.I = believe misinformation formed the basis of the = "logic".  = I suggest you talk to = Bio-Works, the manufacturers, to get the real story (315) 781-1703. = Cheers

Alec McErlich, = Cascadian Farm.    =

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF5331.317A8D22-- To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Thu Dec 30 21:51:59 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04413 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06846 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:07:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06838 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:07:11 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.158]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:04:50 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991230200339.008c7a30@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:03:39 -0600 To: Subject: Mr. Fix-It Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 910 Warning : Engineer Joke follows. Mike Miller LOL > I thought you might enjoy this it applies to about half of y'all. > > MR. FIX-IT > > ____________________________ > > Once upon a time there lived three men: a doctor, a chemist, > and an engineer. For some reason all three offended the king > and were sentenced to die on the same day. > > The day of the execution arrived, and the doctor was led up > to the guillotine. As he strapped the doctor to the guillotine, > the executioner asked, "Head up or head down?" > "Head up," said the doctor. > "Blindfold or no blindfold?" > "No blindfold." > So the executioner raised the axe, and z-z-z-z-ing! Down came > the blade--and stopped barely an inch above the doctor's neck. > Well, the law stated that if an execution didn't succeed the > first time the prisoner had to be released, so the doctor was > set free. > > Then the chemist was led up to the guillotine. "Head up or > head down?" said the executioner. > "Head up," said the chemist. > "Blindfold or no blindfold?" > "No blindfold." > So the executioner raised his axe, and z-z-z-z-ing! Down came > the blade--and stopped an inch above the chemist's neck. Well, > the law stated that if the execution didn't succeed the first > time the prisoner had to be released, so the chemist was set free. > > Finally the engineer was led up to the guillotine. "Head up or > head down?" asked the executioner. > "Head up." > "Blindfold or no blindfold?" > "No blindfold." > So the executioner raised his axe, but before he could cut the > rope, the engineer yelled out, "WAIT! I see what the problem is!" To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 03:47:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06689 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20000; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19834 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.45] (r-66.150.alltel.net [166.102.66.150]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id CAA13385; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:38:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:42:06 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 911 I can't tell if I ever sent this one! Either sending or resending now. I often do these late at night and am half asleep. Hugh Lovel Dear Mark, Misha and List Readers, Really, it's money men controlling government officials that control our money supply. Why do you think so much more is spent on elections than in salaries for political posts? Why do you suppose top officials get cushy Fortune 500 positions upon their retirement? Why is it we are in the mess we are in? In a certain sense what the "brown recluses" at the centers of their funnel shaped webs are doing is performing the service of requiring us to raise our individual consciousnesses or we are mutton on the hook. It's the old story: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Any of us who want to be free have to get used to awareness and quit yearning for its surcease. We needn't think of this as bad. Those who want to own everything, control everything, centralize everything, reduce us to helpless victims, etc. are doing us a favor with their evil schemes. I see an awful lot of folks who want to ignore evil and not think about it, hoping it will go away. Then when rude awakenings come they are paralysed with fear and they perish. Why be naive? Be suspicious! Be wary! Know your hole card! Don't tailgate, and don't hang out in the no zone. Spot the rattlesnake haunts. Know what time of summer a copperhead strikes at anything. Up-end your boots and shake them out well in the morning before slipping them on. The first thing you should do upon boarding a commercial airliner is spot the emergency exit. Count the rows of seats from yours to that door, and for that matter to any others. You may have to get out in pitch darkness with the plane filling with water or burning or some such. If some feeble oldster or some child is seated by that exit, trade seats so you don't have to go over and through them to open the escape if the plane goes down. Pay close attention to all safety precautions. It may make all the difference. The rest is karma--your just deserts. But this much is not. It is the price of admission. Education is expensive and this is your tuition. Don't make light of the "Noah's" who prepare for the worst. Learn all you can from them. Do they seem to be doomsayers or am I doomsaying? Many are not, but some are, and there is a lot to be said for incurring doom by being obsessed with it. So construct a positive agenda and work toward it. Then, with awareness of the possibilities of doom, its avoidance is not so impossible. We see this in events such as the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle. By and large that was a successful effort to hold the predators at bay even if it is only for a few days, weeks or months. The winged, incendiary lizards will be back soon enough, but there is a future as long as we are wary and prepared. Seek awareness and answers rather than automaticity and solutions. Wake up and take stock of what goes on. Passing laws against confidence artistry has never eliminated its existence. We have both more laws against such stuff than ever AND more of it. It is the sleepers wearing rose colored aviation goggles who make easy marks. Seemingly there must be a few devils accruing horrific karma if the rest of us are to expand our consciousness. This is why we have mercy and forgiveness and what give these things meaning. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia Misha's post: >Howdy, all-- > >Mark wrote: > >>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > >Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) > >Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency >is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has >little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe >your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, >etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those >who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality >for them. > >The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to >centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and >merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) >right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some >historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go >hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and >capitalism. > >Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and >destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing >of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, >and knowledge. > >The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful >appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or >withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. > >Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As >Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: >"They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social >processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The >people make it." > >This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the >resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, >and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, >things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention >of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't >have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. > >The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. > >Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. >They are central to rethinking agriculture. > > >peace >misha > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Michele Gale-Sinex >Communications manager >Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >http://www.wisc.edu >UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >A bank is a place that will lend you money >if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 04:00:47 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06762 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 04:00:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01830 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:52:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01796 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.45] (r-67.146.alltel.net [166.102.67.146]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id BAA09790 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 01:51:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15708.991230@acnet.net> References: <199912301219.UAA13509@phil.gn.apc.org> <199912301219.UAA13509@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:56:24 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re[2]: Government control of money supply? Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 912 Dear Douglas, Maybe I can help out here. I studied this in college and made "A"s. Hugh Lovel >Hi Roberto, > >This is [was going to be] off list because though interesting, it's >not a sustainable ag topic, strictly speaking. > >Thursday, December 30, 1999, 10:03:15 AM, you wrote: > >RV> commercial banks create money, that is how they make so much of >RV> it. > >OK, Roberto, let's go over this again. You are making a claim that I >can neither refute nor confirm at this time. For discussion's sake, >let's say banks *do* actually do this. But I don't feel you've >explained the mechanism by which it's accomplished. > Doug, Banks actually DO do things this way. The mechanism is called the fractional reserve system. Let's say they are required to keep on hand a fractional reserve of 10% of the "money" that they issue as credit. This means that if you deposit $100 dollars of cash in the bank they can put this cash in reserve and issue credits of $1,000 against it since 10% of $1,000 is $100. Actually it is never quite supposed to max out like this and it works more like they issue the credit and will put it in your account on the books. But only a small portion of the credit is out in liquid cash at any one time. Ever wonder why banks are so interested in serving the customers at the windows where cash flows in or out and why checking accounts operate at such low rates? Seeing that the flow of currency is smoothly maintained is essential to seeing that the fractional reserve system works. So they take in $100 and by having that exchange going at the teller's window they can loan out the $1,000 in credit and rely on circulation, cash flow of about $100 to come back in in payments so that they loan a thou today but get a hundred of it back today as well. This means that when they do the books that night it comes out they only actually loaned a net of $900 that day because they loaned $1,000 but were repaid $100 of it. This maintains a cushion that keeps cash disbursements covered and their reserve untouched, unused and actually in reserve. It may sound a little complex and confusing because it is a pretty slick juggling act. >I have to assume that any credit made by a bank is backed by money Incorrect assumption. When you boil it down only a small fraction is backed by any money and the rest is backed by debt. >that has to reside somewhere other than the banks own books. Some does. I realize I was a little clumsy in my description of this above, but it's there if you puzzle through it. >Therefore: I understand you to be saying that banks issue credits that >*aren't* backed by money, just as governments can create money that >isn't backed by reserves of foreign currency, gold or something >external. Quite right. Consider the practice of holding foreign currency in reserve. If 20 or 30 countries are shuffling their currency around to hold it in reserve and only one has anything substantial, isn't this rather like a gigantic shell game? > >(This is a dangerous thing for a government to do, btw - it's >inflationary and can result in the devaluation of the country's >currency, if a lack of confidence results from it, as often occurs. To >get away with it even occasionally, a country would have to have a >strong, productive economy in other respects. I live in Mexico where >this was once done on a major scale and believe me, the results >require a heavy sacrifice in order to finally be corrected). There's a few different things going on here. First, inflation is not based purely on the supply of money, but also on the supply of goods. If there is a lot of money out on loan to manufacturers and goods are plentiful and cheap this may be deflationary even if the money markets see to it that money supply is plentiful, deposits at banks go up while loans go down. and fractional reserves grow. Conversely if you tighten the supply of cash when goods are scarce and drive up the interest rates people are going to want to borrow a lot more no matter the interest rates so they can purchase what they need of scarce commodities. This can end up fueling inflation if the percentage of fractional reserves shrinks, say to 5% and a $100 deposit can then be turned into $2,000 worth of loans. Remember what the Fed did during Jimmy Carter's re-election campaign? They had interest rates over 20% and it was a major inflationary period. Later the Fed relaxed rates under Reagan and during his presidency the Gipper added something like 4 trillion dollars to the Federal debt, but that was deflationary. > >RV> I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and >RV> have almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE >RV> REQUIREMENT OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING >RV> SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? > >Once again: You are saying that the credit system is generated by the >banks themselves and that this is in accordance with the legal >structure in most economically strong countries? > >RV> If your answer is 90, which is what I also thought a year ago, you >RV> -- like almost everyone else -- are underestimating the power of >RV> banks. > >RV> The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 >RV> dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, >RV> dollars. Doug, See? It is like I said above. > >RV> If the reserve requirement is 1% instead of 10%, then the banking >RV> system can lend from your 100-dollar deposit and total of $9,900. (And >RV> not $99, which is the most common answer.) Doug, Strange as it seems to ever so many people, Roberto is right. It's a fantastic shell game, and because of arrangements like our (US)Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) which makes the threat of a "run" of withdrawals nearly non-existent, it is not nearly so risky for the bank as you might think. > >OK, the amount of money a bank can lend is related to the percentage >they are required to hold in reserve. What I want to know is, *HOW* >can they lend money they don't have? Where do they "get" it? Do they >themselves get credit with a central bank? If this is the case, there >are undoubted criteria that the bank has to meet in order to qualify, >which does not exclude the possibility of that a "bankers club" exists >(but that is true in most fields, as well as on sanet). Please be as >explicit as possible, including the country you're referring to in any >example you give. > >Banks have to deliver some kind of documentation to whoever receives a >credit. You are saying that banks are "licensed" to issue documents >that aren't backed by anything except the percentage of reserves then >in effect. I know there is an element of trust involved, but am not >ready to suppose that the world's "major" currencies are no better >than a stock market, where expectations (and rumors) drive >investments. This is a lot truer than you might think. Let's think back a few years to when the Mexican peso collapsed. NAFTA had recently gone into effect and the Mexican economy was booming with contracts for production to be sold in the US and Canada and lots of loans (secured by leins on the factories, chicken houses, production facilities like mines or oil that the loans built or opened up.) made because the producer had contracts for the production at good rates. There was plenty of new construction and lots of jobs. Then some of the big New York banks that had been buying pesos dumped pesos on the currency exchanges. Suddenly there were too many pesos and nobody wanted pesos. They went to 60% and though I wasn't paying much attention (I'm a farmer with cows to milk and vegetables to grow) I think ithe Mexican peso went to 40% or even briefly down under 20% of its value. The goods still left the country going north, but the rate of exchange meant terrible prices for anything locked in on contracts--and it was the fact there were so many contracts out there for production that fueled the craze for loans. What do you think happened to the factories, chicken houses, production facilities like mines, oil, etc.? When the loans could not be paid ownership, stock, securities of whatever kind became property of the lenders--which in many cases were the same New York banks that collapsed the currency. Mexico is a country that is rich in raw materials and labor. Who controls these? Sure there's bankers' clubs, licenses, instruments of credit, central banks and trust involved. There's also dog-eat-dog manipulations, betrayals, rumors, expectations and deception. Big time. Please don't be naive about this. Prime Banks are in the position of being the biggest sharks in the water, aren't they? They didn't get to be prime banks by passing up the slow swimmers and the unwary. Please think about this. They do seem to lend some degree of solidity to the fabric of world banking. But why is it this meager degree of solidity is so filled with poverty, ignorance, environmental degredation, and political injustice? Please think about this. I wonder where you've been all your life that you wouldn't know this because you obviously are educated and articulate. Might it be that you watch the nightly new strobing at you and you've been in a hypnotic trance when downloading information? I wonder. I don't wish to pity you or demean you. You come across as a nice guy who is asking some good questions and deserves to wake up. > >The fact that foreign currencies are generally involved in the >reserves of a given country, and the fact that banking standards >backed by experience are taking effect in more and more countries; >would seem to lend some degree of solidity to the cloth of the worlds >banking system, at least where major "Prime Banks" are concerned, even >if the gold standard is past history and admittedly, none of this >guarantees social justice. > >Please explain exactly how what you describe is done within the >European Community and the U.S. economies (which are still setting the >pace in finance, for now). > >Douglas Hinds > Douglas, I'm out of time for this and have to be brief. Besides you need to start figuring these things out for yourself. Europe and the US are where the big sharks are lounging for the moment, particularly the US. Gas has been cheap for a long time. The roads are good and people have been edging up into bigger and bigger cars for a long time. There's a LOT of petroleum involved in domestic production. The dollar has been strong, strong and credit has been expanding for a long time. What do you suppose is likely to happen next? And let me throw this at you since I'm a farmer. Summer grass has been at a premium in Texas for a couple three years. (Actually I'm in Georgia market gardening, but from time to time I get a little information about other places. I'd like you to think about something you can follow in most any newspaper.) Grains have been low. Partly this is due to the fact that way too many farmers are locked into cash grain farming and too few are grazing, which is environmentally disasterous and exacerbates the kinds of summer droughts we've been having. It can be environmentally constructive to graze, but cash grain farming is notorious for being environmentally ruinous. Cow/calf operations depend on grass while feedlots depend on grain. Now you might think that if there isn't enough grass there won't be that many cows and calves, but in agriculture you've got to realize there's lots of lead time. Without grass this past summer brood cows couldn't be fed well enough and had to be sold for hamburger which drove that price down and it may take two years to rebuild these herds. In many cases baby calves could hardly be given away. Texas brood herds were decimated. Feeder beef for the feedlots were a different story. Beef prices were down in general, you see, feedlots were feeding out the previous year's calves on cheap grain and that sure didn't help prices either. Anything that could be fattened for better cuts went to the feedlots, which just incidentally are an abomination both in terms of their inhumanity and their environmental ruinousness. Now with corn prices so low cash grain farmers are numb with shock beef prices are rising because there's not enough feeder beef to fill the feedlots, and this demand for new brood herds and young stock to feed is driving calves back up. Farmers will be paying through the nose for calves they were giving away last summer. Farmer's tend to lose when hay and grain are poor AND paradoxically they tend to loose when these are abundant. But sometimes and some farmers tend to win some of the time. Droughts, floods, market cycles and lead times are cyclical and there's options and choices and if one is a really savvy grower, in tune with the cycles, well-informed, foresighted and a bit lucky it's a pretty exciting, even rewarding, game. Local, regional and national trends can mean a lot in terms of the options to cash in fairly well, but commodity manipulators have a lot of advantages. For one thing, they are so much more liquid than producers that it isn't funny. Consider what happens to these options when things like NAFTA and GATT go into effect and manipulators can catch regional producers in one part of the world at a time when prices and production are doing well and import enough from another part of the world to drive prices down and buy up the successful production cheap and then whisk what they bought up cheap to another part of the world and drive prices down and buy up production cheap, hopscotching from place to place without end. Is it any wonder it means so much to manipulators to be able to ship American hormone/beef to Europe or Japan who would rather keep it out? It isn't the producers that are complaining trade barriers are unfair so much as it is the manipulators. Make a six month study of world trade in a basket of commodities and read between the lines who is making a killing and who is getting screwed. It ought to be an education that will eradicate your naivety. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 04:41:21 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06931 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 04:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA18646 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:39:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18530 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.45] (r-66.150.alltel.net [166.102.66.150]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id CAA13385; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:38:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:42:06 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 913 I can't tell if I ever sent this one! Either sending or resending now. I often do these late at night and am half asleep. Hugh Lovel Dear Mark, Misha and List Readers, Really, it's money men controlling government officials that control our money supply. Why do you think so much more is spent on elections than in salaries for political posts? Why do you suppose top officials get cushy Fortune 500 positions upon their retirement? Why is it we are in the mess we are in? In a certain sense what the "brown recluses" at the centers of their funnel shaped webs are doing is performing the service of requiring us to raise our individual consciousnesses or we are mutton on the hook. It's the old story: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Any of us who want to be free have to get used to awareness and quit yearning for its surcease. We needn't think of this as bad. Those who want to own everything, control everything, centralize everything, reduce us to helpless victims, etc. are doing us a favor with their evil schemes. I see an awful lot of folks who want to ignore evil and not think about it, hoping it will go away. Then when rude awakenings come they are paralysed with fear and they perish. Why be naive? Be suspicious! Be wary! Know your hole card! Don't tailgate, and don't hang out in the no zone. Spot the rattlesnake haunts. Know what time of summer a copperhead strikes at anything. Up-end your boots and shake them out well in the morning before slipping them on. The first thing you should do upon boarding a commercial airliner is spot the emergency exit. Count the rows of seats from yours to that door, and for that matter to any others. You may have to get out in pitch darkness with the plane filling with water or burning or some such. If some feeble oldster or some child is seated by that exit, trade seats so you don't have to go over and through them to open the escape if the plane goes down. Pay close attention to all safety precautions. It may make all the difference. The rest is karma--your just deserts. But this much is not. It is the price of admission. Education is expensive and this is your tuition. Don't make light of the "Noah's" who prepare for the worst. Learn all you can from them. Do they seem to be doomsayers or am I doomsaying? Many are not, but some are, and there is a lot to be said for incurring doom by being obsessed with it. So construct a positive agenda and work toward it. Then, with awareness of the possibilities of doom, its avoidance is not so impossible. We see this in events such as the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle. By and large that was a successful effort to hold the predators at bay even if it is only for a few days, weeks or months. The winged, incendiary lizards will be back soon enough, but there is a future as long as we are wary and prepared. Seek awareness and answers rather than automaticity and solutions. Wake up and take stock of what goes on. Passing laws against confidence artistry has never eliminated its existence. We have both more laws against such stuff than ever AND more of it. It is the sleepers wearing rose colored aviation goggles who make easy marks. Seemingly there must be a few devils accruing horrific karma if the rest of us are to expand our consciousness. This is why we have mercy and forgiveness and what give these things meaning. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia Misha's post: >Howdy, all-- > >Mark wrote: > >>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > >Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) > >Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency >is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has >little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe >your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, >etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those >who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality >for them. > >The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to >centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and >merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) >right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some >historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go >hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and >capitalism. > >Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and >destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing >of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, >and knowledge. > >The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful >appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or >withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. > >Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As >Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: >"They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social >processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The >people make it." > >This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the >resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, >and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, >things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention >of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't >have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. > >The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. > >Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. >They are central to rethinking agriculture. > > >peace >misha > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Michele Gale-Sinex >Communications manager >Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >http://www.wisc.edu >UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >A bank is a place that will lend you money >if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 10:25:10 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10019 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15662 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:07:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net ([170.76.16.10]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15658 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-134.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.134]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:07:07 -0600 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:03:39 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14335.991231@acnet.net> To: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Mineral Content of Foods & humans eating meat In-reply-To: <00e501bf530e$34f6cba0$6a5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> References: <00e501bf530e$34f6cba0$6a5f28cf@GregandLeiGunthorp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 914 Hi Greg, (I am ambivalent about get involved in these things, but... ). Thursday, December 30, 1999, 3:38:24 PM, you wrote: GLG> As far as God not intending humans to eat meat, here are my thoughts: GLG> ...I believe that our Creator had more in mind for us than a GLG> vegan diet. There's only one way that we will find out what our GLG> Creator meant for us to feast upon, and I'm guessing that when GLG> it's my turn to meet my Maker, I'll have other things on my mind GLG> besides asking Him if I was supposed to eat meat or only veggies. Greg, the point is that eating one way or another may affect *WHEN* you, I and others will each meet our maker. Here is my grain of sand: We eat what we are fed, as children. As adults, what we eat depends on our tastes, what's readily available, our economic resources, what the doctor prescribed and rarely, on philosophical principles. Among those of us who by reason of our nature &/or experience do take the latter into consideration, some of us evangelize, and some don't. Once again, I find myself in the latter group (unless asked). Otherwise, no general, conclusive consensus of opinion (public or professional) has been reached as yet, regarding the superiority of omnivorism vs vegetarianism or vice versa, although opinions and practices abound. Time will surely tell. While that may have nothing to do with sustainable ag, it does have it's place on the "sustainable diet" list though, and I'll bet I eat more local fresh produce than most of you (for the simple reason that it doesn't freeze here). Ever see a 10 lb pineapple? I had added another true life hog anecdote (this one with no sexual connotations), but in the cold light of morning, decided to surpress it this time. Happy New Everything (day, year, century & millennium). I plan on taking it just a the whole world will do: in the same orbit, over the same axis and center of gravity, and at the same speed as always. DH To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 11:22:28 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10449 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08641 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:09:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.multipro.com (root@mail.multipro.com [12.13.128.9]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08569 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mikerichardson.multipro.com (4.ippool.cville.multipro.com [12.13.135.34]) by mail.multipro.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA02747 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:13:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912311513.JAA02747@mail.multipro.com> From: "mikerichardson" To: "sanet" Subject: RE: anti-govt. ? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:12:59 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 915 Terry K. made several good observations regarding perception of "government services." Including: "1b Government has less to spend on our essential services, such as health, education, public transportation. [I would add in here also agriculture - SOR] 2. We are told that government provides poor service This is true, for sure, to the extent that government cuts back to match declining revenues." I can vouch for much of this, having spent 22 years (and counting) in a government ag agency. As budgets decrease, the dollars available for programs, research, education, and field services become more scarce. The programs then tend to become more competitive, more complicated, and harder to service. Technical people get bogged down in administration of the programs, meaning less one-on-one work with farmers and with a decrease in overall quality. Farmers get frustrated with the new programs and lessening of technical assistance in the field. "Government" responds by further cutting "unpopular" programs, and so the cycle continues. Now, having said that, I also would not want folks to think that I believe in more government. However, I know first hand that if programs had more local control and were easier to administer that the availability of financial and technical assistance would (usually) be more fairly distributed and that "customers" would recieve better service. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 13:26:07 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01894 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12599 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:54:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mailmtx.acnet.net (mailmtx.acnet.net [170.76.16.130]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12595 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from du-148-233-231-134.prodigy.net.mx ([148.233.231.134]) by mailmtx.acnet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52476U50000L50000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:54:07 -0600 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:50:39 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) S/N 5E3E1CD8 / Personal Reply-To: Douglas Hinds Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4451.991231@acnet.net> To: Roberto Verzola , Hugh Lovel CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[4]: Government control of money supply? In-reply-To: <199912310223.KAA16752@phil.gn.apc.org> References: <199912310223.KAA16752@phil.gn.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 916 Hi Roberto, Friday, December 31, 1999, 3:35:28 AM, you wrote: DH> >This is [was going to be] off list because though interesting, DH> it's not a sustainable ag topic, strictly speaking. RV> I'll reply off-list first, and post it again on SANET if the RV> discussion takes off. A lot of farmers are heavily indebted, so I RV> imagine such information should be interesting to them. It looks like it has (Hugh & Bart so far - as far as I've noticed), so that's fine with me - I just didn't want to be the one to do it at first - but I did go ahead and post it in the end. Thanks for clearing this up a bit more. There are bound to be country dependent differences, also - Mexico for one has passed laws prohibiting the Govt. from guaranteeing loans made by Banks to corporations affiliated with any of their principle officers, for instance; higher reserves are now required and official norms have been set for "standard banking procedures" for securing loans, which otherwise are not protected. There were many more restrictions made on guaranteeing loans. (I have them here). This was another point you didn't mention - not only do banks issue funds on their own hook, the repayment of those funds may be guaranteed by the governments currently in power. It can result in a very neat game of collusion, and the US has not been immune from this. However, Mexico is now beginning to exercise some control by limiting the guarantee to loans made only under certain conditions. DH> OK, Roberto, let's go over this again. You are making a claim DH> that I can neither refute nor confirm at this time. For DH> discussion's sake, RV> You can also look it up in any textbook on banking/finance or any RV> economics textbook with a chapter on the same subject. In the book RV> index, try looking for "fractional-reserve banking". DH> I have to assume that any credit made by a bank is backed by DH> money that has to reside somewhere other than the banks own DH> books. Therefore: I understand you to be saying that banks issue DH> credits that *aren't* backed by money, just as governments can DH> create money that isn't backed by reserves of foreign currency, DH> gold or something RV> That's what it amounts to. When one bank receives a deposit, and RV> proceeds to lend 90% (or whatever fraction) of that, the bank RV> doesn't have to back it up with anything. It is the borrower that RV> has to back it up with some assets. DH> (This is a dangerous thing for a government to do, btw - it's DH> inflationary and can result in the devaluation of the country's DH> currency, if a lack of confidence results from it, as often DH> occurs. To get away with it even occasionally, a country would DH> have to have a strong, productive economy in other respects. I DH> live in Mexico where RV> Almost all banking systems in the world do "fractional-reserve RV> banking", including Mexico I'd presume. So they do it daily, all RV> of the time. It is not just the government, it is the corporate RV> banking system. DH> Once again: You are saying that the credit system is generated by DH> the banks themselves and that this is in accordance with the legal DH> structure in most economically strong countries? RV> Not most economically-strong countries, but all countries under RV> the fractional-reserve banking system, and that's practically all RV> countries in the world (I don't say "all" because I'm not sure RV> about all Muslim countries). DH> OK, the amount of money a bank can lend is related to the DH> percentage they are required to hold in reserve. What I want to DH> know is, *HOW* can they lend money they don't have? Where do they DH> "get" it? Do they RV> They simply lend up to 90% of their deposits. They don't get it RV> from anywhere: they CREATE it. And if you look at the entire RV> banking system, they can create a maximum of $900 from your $100 RV> deposit (assuming 10% reserve requirement). When you borrow from RV> the bank, they simply tell you: your loan is approved, you can RV> start issuing checks against your checking account now. They've RV> all worked it out, and know from experience how much of the total RV> currency (coins+printed money) is kept in the bank. Their books are undoubtedly legally subject to scrutiny by external auditors, under certain conditions. RV> This is why bankers are so conservative. Anything that rocks the RV> boat and leads people to withdraw their cash is a threat to them. RV> If people withdraw more than 10% of their deposits, the whole RV> thing can collapse. This is why they are so scared of the y2k RV> problem. (Tomorrow, as y2k problems actually occur, things will RV> start to get exciting...) It simply never happens, statistically. But it could. DH> themselves get credit with a central bank? If this is the case, DH> there are undoubted criteria that the bank has to meet in order DH> to qualify, which does not exclude the possibility of that a DH> "bankers club" exists (but that is true in most fields, as well DH> as on sanet). Please be as explicit as possible, including the DH> country you're referring to in any example you give. RV> It doesn't involve borrowing from the central bank. If you're a RV> banker under a fractional-reserve banking system, you are part of RV> the "club". This is true under every country that allows banks to RV> lend part of the deposits they receive from the public RV> (fractional-reserve banking). DH>> Banks have to deliver some kind of documentation to whoever DH>> receives a credit. You are saying that banks are "licensed" to DH>> issue documents that aren't backed by anything except the DH>> percentage of reserves then in effect. I know there is an element DH>> of trust involved, but am not RV> Yes. The fraction of deposits they keep as reserve is what backs RV> up the loans they make, nothing else. (Well strictly, the RV> borrower's collateral is the back up.) This is why banks CREATE RV> money, in multiples of the deposit they receive from the public. RV> I'll go through it again: RV> First assume 10% reserve requirement. This figure is not RV> arbitrary. It reflects a system-wide average estimate of how much RV> currency people actually keep and how much of it they deposit in RV> the bank. So, we'll assume in the explanation below that people RV> tend to keep no more than 10% of their liquid assets in currency, RV> outside the banking system. RV> Assume you deposit $100 in bank A. $90 is targetted for lending, RV> 10 kept for reserve. That $90 loan is eventually spent (in the RV> form of a check payment most probably), and the check deposited in RV> bank B. Out of the $90 deposit, another 90% or $81 can be lent RV> out. Eventually, this $81 is deposited in another bank, out of RV> which 90% or $72.90 can again be lent out. And so on. OK, so it's not just one bank that is generating all the $900 loaned out then. This happens at the "banking system" level. I just reviewed what Hugh posted and see I was wrong: HL> Banks actually DO do things this way. The mechanism is called the HL> fractional reserve system. Let's say they are required to keep on HL> hand a fractional reserve of 10% of the "money" that they issue as HL> credit. This means that if you deposit $100 dollars of cash in the HL> bank they can put this cash in reserve and issue credits of $1,000 HL> against it since 10% of $1,000 is $100. Actually it is never quite HL> supposed to max out like this and it works more like they issue HL> the credit and will put it in your account on the books. But only HL> a small portion of the credit is out in liquid cash at any one HL> time. So by calculating it that way, a bank can do that by leaving the deposit intact. But the point is that evidently much more "money" is in "circulation" in a given country than was actually MINTED or PRINTED by it, and I see no reason to assume that given the existing level of international transfers, this is not extended world wide. That is weird, but has a cumulative kind of logic to it - in fact, it's unavoidable. RV> Deposited For lending Kept in reserve RV> Bank A 100 90 10 RV> Bank B 90 81 9 RV> Bank C 81 72.90 8.10 RV> Bank D 72.90 65.71 7.29 RV> ... ... ... ... RV> ------- -------- ------- -------- RV> Banking 1,000 900 100 RV> system RV> Simplistically, it is *as if* the banking system treated the RV> original $100 deposit as the actual 10% required reserve, meaning RV> that the banking system imagines itself having increased its RV> reserves by $1000 (see total deposits), out of which it can lend a RV> maximum of $900. What if some don't keep the money in the bank, RV> but keep it in cash? The averages have all been worked out from RV> experience, and system-wide, the banking system knows that as long RV> as all banks keep 10% in reserve, these variations are all taken RV> care of. If withdrawals from one bank exceed the average 10%, it RV> can borrow from the Central Bank (or other banks for that matter). RV> But they've worked out the averages, which is the reason for the RV> reserve requirement. RV> Maybe, I still didn't explain it well enough. As I said, any RV> textbook on banking/finance or economics (see banking/finance RV> chapter), might contain a clearer explanation. Look for RV> fractional-reserve banking. RV> Roberto No, now I've gotten the idea - it's a system wide thing and is the way the world economy works these days. It COULD all come crashing down, and one bank COULD loan out $900 from your $100 deposit, if it kept it all in reserve. It's part of the economic system and whatever money is loaned is also coming back to itself from other banks, so it can inflate almost indefinitely. In the end, it could very well be much MORE than $900 - and no one will ever know, unless the system crashes - which nobody in a position of responsibility wants. Now I understand why Mexico's federal govt. insisted on "saving the banking system", while the opposition claims that it's the bankers themselves that are being saved. The system itself is a house of cards supported by practices whose validity is founded as much on peoples motives and the existing depth of understanding regarding "standard procedures", along with the legal basis of same. There is also a saying here: "Rio revolcado, ganancia de pescadores" - A roiling river is to the fisherman's benefit. The opposition wants the system to crash and thus inherit power by virtue of default - by discrediting those already there. Since this danger is inherent, it's indispensable that banks make loans in a responsible manner and that this be defined by law, in terms of any guarantees being forthcoming buy the countries central banking system (often linked to the government and the value of the itself). The alternative is worse - no credit is available. It's like democracy, or capitalism; which have to exist within a defined set of rules in order to work in a given society. There are no complete freedoms - people can't fly like birds and dope can't be sold legally in schools etc. The "best" possible options are obviously a long way from being defined, however. And yet, a lot of ground HAS already been covered. Thanks to both you and Hugh for the clarifying this. Have a happy new year (and be ready for the next one). Douglas To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Fri Dec 31 18:15:37 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04270 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16275 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:14:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16270 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.4.alltel.net [166.102.66.4]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id PAA28652; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:14:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:20:52 -0500 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, srcosmos@interx.net, info@acresusa.com From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Biodynamic Flash (LONG) Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 917 Dear Sanet Readers, ACRES readers, ATTRA readers, Any Others, Please publish or forward this one to others and other lists. This is the most important news that has come down in the history of American biodynamics. We've finally got the chance to open up the public perception of this revolutionary method of agriculture from the closed, clannish, clubbish, esoteric doctrineness of the past. As long as Greg succeeds in forcing Demeter and the BDA to put their trademark of the term biodynamic in the public domain--where it belongs!--biodynamics can become mainstream. If not, we will ultimately be in trouble on this list and elsewhere, as I clarify below: Please read on, Hugh Lovel To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," It has really hit the fan. I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is the real agriculture." Back then I let Heinz Grotzke, who was president of the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), talk me out of using biodynamic as a purely generic term. Heinz is a real gem of a fellow who corresponded with me in prison and freely sent me biodynamic literature to read. He argued that in addition to needing the parenting of the BDA, biodynamic agriculture had to identify itself so folks would know it was not more of the same old ruinous conventional stuff. I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that invoking the name biodynamic at most turns made it more obvious it is something to be investigated. I mentioned this debate between me, Heinz and myself in the introduction to Chapter II of my book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. in 1994, to be reissued in January 2000. In many ways I agree with Heinz and biodynamically grown is on all my signs when I retail. It invites comment and educates consumers and farmers in nearby stalls. At this point, however, the paralytic wrongness of hitching biodynamics to a single organization is revealed. Biodynamic has to be a generic term that's increasingly all-embracing without losing its unique goodness. If it is, sooner or later a majority will see biodynamic as real agriculture and the word biodynamic will be dropped for the sake of brevity. On the borders of my thought I knew all along that Heinz was somehow in error, but I couldn't get it in clear focus. Thanks to Greg Willis, however, it lit up like Hiroshima at ground zero. This is going to take a little more explanation, so hang in there. Some BDnow readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed hyperbolic, flaming such harsh invective against several high BD muckymucks that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended a whole bunch of people, employing sixth grade insults, threats of lawsuits at the drop of a hat and such like. It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that happened was I wrote to Greg privately and visited him face to face, confronting him particularly about his attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the president of the BDA. His response was I needed to trust him. He had good reasons. He knew what he was doing, and I should just wait and see. Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or maybe he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when necessary. I don't know. But I can say, knowing him first hand, I like him very much. He's one of the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and innovative people I know in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted to him for the way he went to work making and using biodynamic horn clay, the mising BD Prep. It was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with intelligence, insight, conviction and a lot of energy. Early on I picked up on his horn clay prep. He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along with my field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new development since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed with the difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved California to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia Biodynamic Conference last September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and still is one of the most innovative and forward looking people in American biodynamics. Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sense for the unity of spirit and matter, the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of JPI which is the backbone of biodynamics in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his slides and his wines showed, is a very accomplished biodynamic wine grower, Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is living proof that farming is fun as well as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual attendance. I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, and I believe one or two BDnow readers posted remarks to the list after the conference that they came partly to see if Greg was anything like he seemed in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights and demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent they should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a chance to view them yet. So that's part of the background. There's more. Back a few years ago there was a movement by the BDA to trademark the word "Biodynamic" and its alias, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this to myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort to protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market their latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. After all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the idea was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, of course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that use of the term "biodynamic" became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra nomenclature. I suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet another initiative that would keep biodynamics out on the far fringes. However, I'm not usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw in and only feel uneasy about. I usually rationalize and go along with things though I know enough to keep my eyes open. When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy by eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When I spent four solid weeks cutting my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I used no transit, string lines, stakes or tape measures. And I gauge how much of this or that to add to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring spoons. If I had a dozer, no doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. I can be pretty perceptive, but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest tools available for exact knowledge unless I believe it really matters--like when adjusting the cylinder clearances of a web-offset Hantcho magazine press for the perfect thickness of ink on glossy stock or when using magnification, a level and vernier adjustments to read the meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four decimal places plus or minus three ten-thousandths. In this case I didn't ask someone with real expertise in trademark law what all the implications were of trademarking a term like "biodynamic." But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. One of the things he found out was if the Demeter ever comes after anyone for using its trademark it can't afford to stop or it's discriminatory prosecution. It's like sliding straight down a deep mineshaft on a quarter inch greased cable. There's no stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. I grant that someone like Disney Studios can afford to protect their trademarks on Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter Association could probably afford to protect a trademark like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic" because it already is so narrow it's defensible. But that was not done, and the spectre of selective, preferential prosecution ensures they cannot let anyone slide and use the term biodynamic without the little circle symbol and a paid up subscription to Demeter's qualifications. It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not certified biodynamic by Demeter. I more or less believed back when it first was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all the officers of the BDA or Demeter didn't intend to go after anyone farming with some understanding--whatever it might be--of Steiner's insights into agriculture. But admittedly I'm uneasy with anything that paves the path to enforced orthodoxy because that means stagnation and ultimately death. It certainly doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, as orthodox biodynamic is the ripest of oxymorons. You can read the details in Greg's documents following my post. It's in the usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I have to--but I read this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to life, which my long post is an effort to help with. Greg brought the whole thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the term BD preps since that's another generic term of long history just as is biodynamic. I happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and praise for Hugh Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long and arduous job bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be available to anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted souls with the blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest of black holes. But the point is ensuring that biodynamics grows. It is masterful how Greg perceived the need and step by step brought things to a head. On behalf of JPI, the BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, Washington, DC, petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office requesting an extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. application for trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, 1999 and again on December 28, 1999. It is the December 28th request that really tears it. In the second paragraph the silo opens and the ICBM appears. This paragraph starts by saying the Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and they are opposing Agri-Synthesis, Inc.'s application to trademark the term BD Preps. Shades of nuclear brinksmanship. In other words, they got their trademark and they don't want Greg to get any ammo to fight back if or rather when they lower the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. Considering the present course that seems inevitable. I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend this as I believe folks will think of many things I haven't. So far I see it as essential to living in good faith for the Demeter Association to place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public domain, thus protecting the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy and stagnation. And going 75 years with roughly 50 Demeter certified BD farms here in the US seems stagnant to me. If the Demeter Association wants a trademark they should apply for something suitable like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." In fervent sincerity, Hugh Lovel Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. Union Agricultural Institute 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 P.S. Those who want to see biodynamics in the public domain need to lend Greg all the support they can in this matter. While it could get messy, if Demeter was to realize what they are up against I believe they would capitulate without harm or weaponry and put their trademark in the public domain, thus protecting the term biodynamic from Monsanto or Du Pont while making it available to all. Greg's e-mail address is: srcosmos@interx.net and his Agri-Synthesis website address is http://www.agsyn.com. A brief statement of your support and the reasons for your support would probably be a good start. This is so hot off the stove there hasn't been time yet to organize much else. Hugh Greg's post: So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No.2,286,984." ... "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified Biodynamic farms and processors." ... "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially costly litigation." We believe that we have a very strong case and that we will win the trademark rights to "BD PREPS" should we choose to pursue it. At first we were reasonably certain of this (or we would not have made application) but in the past 24 hours, new information has come to us which indicates that (a) JPI was not the first to use nor publish the phrase "BD PREPS" which eliminates their claim of originality (prior usage by others doing so) and (b) at least one and possibly several other people have been selling "BD PREPS" in the United States over the years and neither JPI, demeter nor the bda ever objected to the usage of the term, an action (or, more properly, neglect) which by definition vitiates their claim of exclusivity. This makes our case much stronger. In addition, we now have in our possession extremely damaging evidence of neglect and deception which we believe mortally wounds any potential claims and objections they might have, evidence which we will reveal through the proper venue when appropriate. Therefore, despite their demands and threats, we will most likely vigorously pursue our application as originally planned. It is neither our intent nor desire to tear the biodynamic community asunder on this issue. However, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Our intent and desire is to ferret out the truth and, when discovered, take appropriate and proper action that is for the good of all biodynamic agriculture. Whether or not "BD PREPS" should be trademarked is the exclusive prerogative of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, not the bda, not demeter, not JPI and certainly not some high-priced Washington D.C. lawyer who thinks she knows how to sling the legal bullshit in the hope that she can scare us into withdrawing our application. It is our opinion that, for whatever reason, she has her facts wrong and we can prove it. (JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as "biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very least. So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to defend me." Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get everyone's attention? Please understand something very important here. This is not about our application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you and others have done in this country for over 60 years. Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, the bda AND JPI. In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word 'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the United States and must be put to stop now. Greg Willis President Agri-Synthesis, Inc. Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 +1+1+NO%2f2286984" (1 of 1) >> >>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>organisms >> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 (1 of 1) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tarr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tarr" Content-Base: "http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?reg ser=serial&entry=75323736" =75323736"> o Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results. Serial Number: 75323736 Registration Number: 2286984 Trademark (words only): BIODYNAMIC Current Status: Registered. Date of Status: 1999-10-19 Filing Date: 1997-07-14 CURRENT OWNERS 1. Demeter Association, Inc. GOODS AND SERVICES agricultural products and applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber products and processed food products PROSECUTION HISTORY 1999-10-19 - REGISTERED-PRINCIPAL REGISTER 1999-07-27 - PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION 1999-06-25 - NOTICE OF PUBLICATION 1999-04-07 - APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER 1999-04-05 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER 1999-03-10 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1999-02-08 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-09-03 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1998-06-22 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-05-08 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1998-04-13 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 From: Greg Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark Allan Balliett wrote: Greg - Do you mind if I forward this information to BD Now!? -Allan -- You may put this on bdnow if you like. I would hope you do so. Allan and Hugh, I believe that Hugh has already taken care of that so please do not forward it yourself. This is very serious business and I consider this the single greatest threat to biodynamics and the advancement of the biodynamic movement in the history of BD in this country. I consider it so important that I signed on bdnow temporarily to read how people respond to this. In that regard, I received an email from envirolink that said: "Subscription requests are not automatic for this list. Your request has been forwarded to bdnow@igg.com for approval." I assume that this will not be a problem. You may be interested to know that the Kaliskos used the term "Bio-Dynamic" in their book Agriculture Of Tomorrow written in 1939. This is the oldest reference to the term I can find in my books and it certainly predates demeter's claimed first use in July, 1985. I quote from page 288 in Agriculture Of Tomorrow: "Bio-Dynamic Farming means: Farming according to the suggestions of Rudolf Steiner. We do not find the name 'Bio-Dynamic' a very good one, therefore it has not been used in this book. So many movements and remedies exist which have similar sounding names, that we have preferred to call the method quite simply by the name of its founder, Rudolf Steiner." This statement implies that the term was in use before 1939 as well which is a benchmark of some kind. It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. biodynamics today. Clearly demeter/bda took the term which was in common usage at least since 1939, a period of at about 50 years, and appropriated it for their own use and enrichment. The evidence I now have indicates that the same thing happened with the term "BD PREPS" although I seriously doubt if Hugh Courtney appropriated it with the intent of keeping it for himself or JPI exclusively. Especially since the history of the use of the term indicates that JPI never objected to its use by anyone else. I merely applied for it at the suggestion of my patent attorney to bring this "BIODYNAMIC" thing to a head. It would be a grave error if someone, on behalf of biodynamics in general, did not oppose the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" as a trademark, especially since it is so broadly written. BTW, this broad based definition is also a weakness since it is, in reality, impossible for them to defend it. With this mark in the possession of demeter, who can call what they produce and sell "BIODYNAMIC" without infringing on their trademark? In that regard, I and my company Agri-Synthesis, Inc. will oppose the registration of the mark or our own behalf, on behalf of all of all BD practitioners and on behalf of humanity which also will suffer from this blunder. It would be very helpful if a chorus of voices in opposition to it were to come from bdnow and other lists around the country. It is a sad commentary on the state of the biodynamic movement in the U.S. that so many people like you and me, and thousands of others who have worked so hard and selflessly to bring BD into reality in this country, only to see our efforts undermined by demeter/bda and suffer the loss of what many of us of hold so dear - the pride of accomplishment of bringing biodynamic agriculture or gardening to our own property, and, in my case, the farms of my clients. It may be helpful to know that my attorneys have requested copies of all the official documents concerning this matter from the PTO so that we may trace the history of their application. When I get it, I will make it available to anyone who wants a copy if they pay for the copy cost and postage. You know, with regard to the BD community, this application was done in total secrecy by demeter and the bda. The application was made on March 14, 1997 and after about two and a half years and after three denials (which is VERY unusual and indicates that the PTO examiner had serious reservations about this mark), the mark was finally Published For Opposition by the PTO on July 27, 1999. (Did demeter notify you or anyone you know of this?) It was registered as a trademark with the Principal Registrant listed as "Demeter Association, Inc." on October 10, 1999. You would think that with something as important as this is, something which has a direct impact on thousands if not millions of people, that demeter/bda would have launched a public relations blitz to garner the support of all the BD community and to assure that there would be no controversy. But their secretive activity says to me, at least, that they knew it was wrong when they did it and they knew that the only way to get the mark registered was to conduct the process in secret. As I recall, I was the only one to raise an objection last year and that was completely ignored. So now the chickens have come home to roost but it is not too late. U.S. law states that we have five years from the time the mark is registered to file an Opposition for Cancellation of the mark. That does not mean we can be complacent. Every year that goes by does more damage to biodynamics, demeter and the bda. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, we in biodynamics are interrelated and interconnected. Any thing that one person does has some effect, great or small, on everyone else. And being a relatively small community, that effect is only amplified for each of us personally. I assure you and Hugh that to an person, my clients are outraged (and "outraged" is the kindest comment I heard) at demeter's usurpation of their efforts to convert to biodynamic agriculture for the obvious (in their view) and inevitable enrichment of demeter/bda. They are not happy and will probably join in the Opposition for Cancellation of the registration of the mark. I would be pleased to add your name and anyone else's name to the Cancellation filing and I will publish the name and address of our attorney in Towson, MD handling it should you request it. In my opinion, anne mendenhall has acted in the very same way that she criticized so vehemently when the USDA tried to co-opt and redefine the term "ORGANIC". In my humble opinion, no amount of explaining or rationalizing by mendenhall, in the official capacity as president of demeter association, inc., can justify what they have done and even more importantly, the way she and demeter/bda did it. The only action that demeter/bda can take now that would save face, save their reputation (which I suspect is already permanently damaged), save the reputation of the bda (which I suspect is also permanently damaged), show the world that we in the biodynamic community really ascribe to the high-minded principles that Rudolf Steiner espoused and avoid a very public and very costly legal battle is to assign their mark "BIODYNAMIC" to the Public Domain. This would eliminate the controversy, save them and bda a ton of money and assuage their fears that Monsanto or Dupont might go after the mark before they got it. This would be a selfless and charitable act on their part but in light of the way they have conducted this business so far, I doubt that they are ready to take it at this time. Perhaps pressure from the BD community at large will encourage them to take this step for the benefit of all. Shame on anne mendenhall, shame on demeter, shame on the bda and shame on the board members of each organization for supporting this internecine debacle. They obviously never considered the consequences. Greg Willis Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 From: Greg Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sat Jan 1 18:59:57 2000 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11528 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26998 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:27:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.pcsia.com (mail.pcsia.com [206.162.14.3]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26920 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:27:05 -0500 (EST) From: mmiller@pcsia.com Received: from buzz-off (unverified [206.162.14.131]) by mail.pcsia.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:27:05 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000101152527.007da580@pcsia.net> X-Sender: mmiller@pcsia.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 15:25:27 -0600 To: Subject: Irradiated Food Logo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_946783527==_" Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 918 --=====================_946783527==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Radura2001 Attached is my mutant version ;>) of the new symbol that will soon appear in your food stores on those newly approved irradiated meats. This ecofriendly looking label will appear on meats that have been exposed to ionizing radiation, the kind of radiation, like gamma rays, with enough energy to knock electrons off the atoms in your food. This radiation kills the bacteria from the fecal matter introduced onto the meat during the slaughter and processing of meat in our current processing plants. The USDA euphemisticallys calls it "adulterated under insanitary conditions.". When foods are irradiated with gamma rays from cobalt-60, cesium-137 or high energy electrons from an electron beam irradiator, the processors do not have to improve the sanitatry conditions in their facilites that contaminated the meat with fecal matter in the first place. The added benefit is that feed lot operators can continue feeding the unnatural diets with antibotics which produces low level diarrhea in the animals and the acidic enviornment that allows these bacteria to exist and mutate. But On The Bright Side Unlike the recombinated DNA technology, rBGH - the Quicker Picker Upper for milk cows which has been banned in Canada, our government in its beneficence has decided to let us, the consumer, choose whether you want to eat irradiated food - But Only For Foods You Cook Yourself. Restaruants and fast food stores do not have to tell you if the food you eat there has been irradiated or not according to the new regulations. How much radiation will my meat receive? By using units of radiation, the kGy, unfamilar to most lay people, the USDA press release at http://www.usda.gov/news/releases/1999/12/0486BG.htm tries to conceal how much radiation your food will actually recieve. Let's use a new unit called Chest X-ray. According to the USDA article, a Chest X-ray is 40 milliRems of radiation or 0.00000040 kGy (kiloGray). As the article states "These figures are much lower than those that have been determined safe and effective for use in food." So they have to hit your food with much higher doses to kill the bugs. In fact, the approved doses of radiation are from 3.0 kGy for poultry to 7.0 kGy for frozen meats. Translation, to kill the fecal contamination bugs in your meat, the meat packers must expose your food to some 7 1/2 million to 17 1/2 million Chest X-ray's worth of radiation! For your frozen meat, that is the radiation equivalent to taking a chest X-ray ever hour of every day for the next 1997.72 years. No wonder the DNA and cell structure of the bugs are shredded to the extent they cannot live. But remember, that same amount of radiation is also shredding the DNA, vitamins and cell structure of the food you eat as well. Think of it as pre-digestion ;>)) If you want to learn more about this issue from a non-industry source see the links at http://www.purefood.org/irradlink.html. Mike Miller --=====================_946783527==_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="radura2001.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="radura2001.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAAQABAAD/4CWKSkZYWAATQDL///////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////////8A AAD///////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////8AAAD///////////////// 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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Jan 2 17:44:57 2000 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21047 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02775 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:59:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail.hurontel.on.ca (mail.hurontel.on.ca [216.46.129.11]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02700 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (clifford-225.wcl.on.ca [216.46.132.225]) by mail.hurontel.on.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA20073 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:58:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <012b01bf556e$033f3220$e1842ed8@oemcomputer> From: "Dave Lewington" To: "Sanet" Subject: Re: commercial animal feed/farm raised animal feed Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:09:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 919 Bart, Are there really field pea varieties up here in Canada that will give you 34% protien? We've grown field peas the past two years in a row here in southern Ontario (even though they aren't common for our area) and both times the tests have come back at 21.5% protein. They are fairly easy to grow, and do make good feed. If we had some that yeilded as well as the varieties we currently grow (Profi and Carnavale) then we could eliminate our soymeal purchases for hog feed, which is our only stumbling block towards producing a non GMO fed hog on our farm. Dave >If you're far enough north to grow them well, barley (13-14% protein) >and hull-less oats (16% protein), along with Canadian field peas (34% >protein, do not need to be cooked). > >One-third of each (plus vitamins & minerals) makes a pretty good >starter/grower for younger birds, while a 40-40-20 blend will give you >an 18% layer mash. > >Makes for much better quality birds than the standard corn/soya based >ration, and is a whole bunch easier on the land, too. > >Bart > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Jan 2 19:12:55 2000 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21842 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03044 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:35:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from bean.epix.net (bean.epix.net [199.224.64.57]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03040 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from epix.net (qrvl-243ppp210.epix.net [205.238.243.210]) by bean.epix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/1999100101/PL) with ESMTP id SAA17414; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:26:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <386FE0AE.D552713E@epix.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:35:11 -0500 From: Steve Groff Reply-To: sgroff@epix.net Organization: Cedar Meadow Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cole, Ralph" CC: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Sus Ag Attitudes References: <9940D59A824BD31196EB00902798D1AE9FF9B4@KNOXEX1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk "Cole, Ralph" wrote: > Actually, this looks like great news to me. The more adulterated the > nation's food supply, the wider the gap between supermarket fare and > direct-sale farm products, and the better our foods look to Mr./Mrs. Food > Shopper. I'm not sure if the above statement was meant to be serious or not but it has been my observation that a number of folks in our sus ag movement have had this attitude. I believe this is wrong! Rather we need to continue to promote the benefits to more then just consumers. If done properly, we as individuals can form trusted relationships with extension, USDA, and the "establishment". I've experianced this personally and I know it can be duplicated. We will gain more influence with this approach then cheering for an "adulterated" food supply. Steve Groff "Enhancing the Environment" http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/ Cedar Meadow Farm 679 Hilldale Road Holtwood, PA 17532 USA To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Jan 2 20:16:48 2000 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22242 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19676 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:20:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from taurus.greensoft.com (ns.webserf.net [204.77.122.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19566 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluestem (unverified [204.77.126.141]) by taurus.greensoft.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with SMTP id ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:29:07 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Bluestem Associates" To: "Dave Lewington" Cc: "sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu" Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:20:15 Reply-To: "Bluestem Associates" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Farm raised animal feed --- CORRECTION Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:09:09 -0500, Dave Lewington wrote: >Are there really field pea varieties up here in Canada that will give you >34% protien? Thanks for asking. Because you did, I double-checked, and I had got it wrong because I fired it off in a hurry --- mixed it up with soyabeans, which are 34% easily. Peas are more typically 24%. I got 28% out of one harvest of Trapper peas, but in this case I was just being bumble-headed because I didn't take the time to double check my numbers. Sorry for misleading ... One-third each of peas, barley, and hull-less oats will give you about an 18-19% protein blend (instead of 20-21%), while the 40-40-20 blend is more like a 17% blend (instead of 18%). Still makes for great chicken feed, but I got the numbers wrong. Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 30 07:53:38 1999 -0500 Status: X-Status: X-Keywords: Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03425 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA04481 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:21:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04447 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id UAA25783; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:19:45 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id UAA13509; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:19:25 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912301219.UAA13509@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 30 Dec 99 16:03:15 Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? To: mgs23@pacbell.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk >>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > >Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) Actually, most governments today control the money supply only indirectly, by setting interest rates or changing bank reserve requirements. NOT by printing more money (except in very exceptional cases, as when the U.S. govt printed some $80 billion of cash in response to the Y2K problem). I realized this only recently, and I believe many SANETeers may not be aware of this: commercial banks create money, that is how they make so much of it. I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and have almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE REQUIREMENT OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? If your answer is 90, which is what I also thought a year ago, you -- like almost everyone else -- are underestimating the power of banks. The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, dollars. If the reserve requirement is 1% instead of 10%, then the banking system can lend from your 100-dollar deposit and total of $9,900. (And not $99, which is the most common answer.) Until one appreciates why this is so, one has not learned how banks really MAKE money. Roberto Verzola PS. This is also the reason why the banking system is SO SCARED about deposit withdrawals due to Y2K fears. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Dec 30 20:41:29 1999 -0500 Status: X-Status: X-Keywords: Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03872 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29594 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:34:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mayumi.iphil.net (mayumi.iphil.net [203.176.0.2]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29523 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mayumi.iphil.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id IAA14870; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:33:53 +0800 Received: (from uu1@localhost) by phil.gn.apc.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id JAA16407; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:15:29 +0800 From: Roberto Verzola Message-Id: <199912310115.JAA16407@phil.gn.apc.org> Date: 31 Dec 99 08:24:35 Subject: Re: Money supply and reserve requirements To: bluestem@webserf.net Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk >>I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and have >>almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE REQUIREMENT >>OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU >>DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? >> >>The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 >>dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, >>dollars. > >Actually, both answers are wrong. Sort of. And both are right. Sort >of. As I said, until one appreciates why this is so, one underestimates the power of banks to CREATE money. The 90 answer is not "sort of right"; it is wrong, period. The 900 answer is the maximum, as I was careful to point out. It is not a "sort of wrong" answer, but the correct theoretical maximum. If it isn't reached, it is because not all banks reach their maximum target lending. But that simply means the banking system can lend more until it reaches the theoretical maximum. >Assume I earn US$1,000 in Peru (the foreign source is important here, >since when I bring it into the States I'm *increasing* the money supply >by exactly $1000 because it is *new* money to the economy). I deposit >the $1,000 in currency in my local bank. Under a 10% reserve >requirement, my bank can subsequently lend $900 to someone who uses it >to buy a flat-panel computer screen. This is not about bringing in money from abroad, but about local cash deposited by local citizens. I repeat: from a *local* $100 deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of $900, given a 10% reserve requirement. Understand why this is so, and you'd know the real secret of how banks simply CREATE money. The rest are details. I've been asked: then why do some banks fail? Banks fail because their owners/managers are not happy enough making such easy money legally. They get too greedy and do illegal things like lending to their own companies and pocketing the cash, done elaborately of course to make it seem legal. Roberto Verzola To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Dec 22 01:38:17 1999 -0500 Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.56.248]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17261 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from STEVED.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.7/UW7.1.0) with SMTP id AAA02663 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:38:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912220638.AAA02663@ncatark.uark.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Steve Diver" To: "Permaculture via Larry London" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:32:16 +0000 Subject: ATTRA Interns List 2000 now online Reply-to: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Greetings from ATTRA, on this Full Moon Winter Solstice! Since 1989, ATTRA has published an annual update to the Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships list. The Year 2000 edition is completed and now available in print and electronic formats. Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships http://www.attra.org/attra-rl/intern.html The ATTRA "Interns" list, as it is commonly known, is a popular networking tool for farmers and interns looking to make connections, and should be especially helpful as people make plans for the upcoming growing season in the new millenium. In this latest edition, roughly two dozen new farm listings have been acquired from the "Educational and Training Opportunities in Sustainable Agriculture" publication compiled by USDA's Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC). By cooperative agreement, ATTRA will in the future maintain this list of farm-based internships and AFSIC will focus on university-based programs. To contact AFSIC, go to http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/index.html The update is 71 pages long, with over 200 entries describing farms and training centers offering internships and apprenticeships in organic farming and sustainable agriculture. In addition, the Interns list provides an interesting glimpse into farm work and characteristics of small farm agriculture in the United States because the farm descriptions were written by the farmers themselves. As an example, several dozen farms in the list are now organized as CSA's. You can also read about CRAFT (Collaborative Regional Alliance for Farmer Training), which is a collection of twelve farms in the Northeastern states that offer fortnightly seminars accompanied by farm tours in addition to on-farm training received by the apprentices during the work week. Sustainable Farming Internships and Apprenticeships is compiled by Katherine Adam, ATTRA Information Specialist. Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas P.O. Box 3657 Fayetteville, AR 72702 1-800-346-9140 8:30am-4:30pm CST http://www.attra.org