Subject: Kevin's posts

From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 17:40:15

Kevin......

First, I REALLY appreciate the fact that your are taking so much time,
effort and a HOMEPAGE to devote to this issue, so let me state
that up front.  At least YOU, unlike so many whiners, are trying
to focus attention to your cause, and rally support in a MEANINGFUL
way, so I applaud you.  I only wish yoour position reflected what I know
to be just the opposite:

In the first study you posted, you showed me figures that are over
20 YEARS OLD!!!  People's driving habits have changed so
radically over this time, ESPECIALLY HERE IN CALIFORNIA!
I don't know where you live, but here in L.A., during the 1984
Olympics is an excellent example of how things have changed.  During
that time, there were staggered working hours.  The road congestions
has lessened, there was more compliance with the speed limit because
of that, and hey...PEOPLE WERE NICE TO EACH OTHER!!!!!
Every year since then, it has deteriorated.  I have noticed the changes
in the natures of the attitudes over the 8 years I have been teaching
drivers who happen to get caught (out of the rest of then who behave
the SAME way, but too many lawbreakers, so few cops).  So, this
study, as interesting as it might have been, tells me nothing.

As for the second study you posted, this dude took 200 samples????
That's NOT a study. That is slice of something, but nothing I recognize.
Anyway, YOU tell ME....when the speed limit goes up to 50 from 35,
YOU believe that people won't exceed it??  REALLY???
If ONLY that were true, I could devote my full time to my job at CBS,
and not spend 8 hours a week with these people.

Kev...as I said, I appreciate your time and effort, but in my classes,
I do NOT use studies....percentages etc. to explain MY position 
because most people realize that few studies reflect any general reality,
and usually a skewed or biased reality from the get go.  Only when the
study agrees with one's position is it accepted, isn't it?  If the study
showed what I say is really happening,  YOU'D be saying it's flawed
or skewed.

I like your homepage.....mine will be up and running this week and in it
I discuss the 55 issue and link people to the WhiteHouse, this and other
newsgroups to further discuss it.  When it is up, I will invite you to
browse it, and if you like it, I will be happy to link yours in return for
the courtesy.  It is an introduction to me, the topics I discuss (of
which speeding is NOT the #1 topic) an invite for free help if people
need it and my shopping area with t-shirts and other stuff I designed.

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"

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From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 14:10:38

>>In article <[email-masked]> Kevin Atkinson wrote:
>
>Ok if 55 zones were raised to 75 do you think drivers will go 85?

ABSOLUTELY!
>
>What about a 55 to 65, do you think drivers will go 75-80?

Not only do I think that, but THAT is what is ACTUALLY happening 
right now. Forget all those people who get nailed on CVC 22356 who 
I get in class (the ones exceeding 65)....that tells me one thing and then
my EYES tell me another.  I teach in areas that I have to drive in 65
zones to get to.  Nobody....NOBODY is doing 65 (except me).
Everyone flies past me.  As they do I yell..."Thanks for my
vacation to Tahiti!!!"
 
>>>(Challenge TWO) Ask you students if the limit was raised 10 to 15 mph if 
>>>they would exceed it automatically.
>>
>>Kev...I DID ask. In TWO classes now (since Jaime asked me to) and
>>the answer was "probably".  And there it is.  These are average drivers
>>who absolutey reflect a cross section of California drivers who were
>>the ones who got caught.  If there were more cops, more would be
>>caught.
>
>Well we won't know what they trully would do unless we adjuct them.  I 
>would like to set some 65 to 75 or 80 and see what happens.  I imagine 
>that traffic will contine to go 70-80 mph on rural freeways...

I take them at their word. They have been consistant for 8 years, class
after class, in their honest responses to my questions.  Kev, you would have
to understand the way I set my classes up.  After they know who I am,
how I came to be there, and we meet each other and establish a mutual
respect for each other, then they have been willing to tell me their stories.
I have asked DEEPLY personal questions over the 8 years, not the least
of which are "Has anyone here ever had a DUI?", and they ALWAYS
share their stories....every class....every time.  I believe in the honesty
of their feedback because I have found it to not only be consistent with
every other class I have ever taught( in the thousands at this point), but
the feedback I get from people when I am on the aid, and lastly, what
I see with my own eyes on our roads.

I do NOT need to do any further analysis of their responses.  They speak for
themselves quite adequately.  Not to you......you don't like what they 
are saying.  But as I have said, I appreciate your approach to the
discussion and your advocacy of your position.  Thanks.

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"

---

From: [email-masked] (Adam Neil Villani)
Date: 7 Aug 1995 21:25:00 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>showed what I say is really happening,  YOU'D be saying it's flawed

You continue to astound me with your audacity, Mr. Traffic. Judging from
these paragraphs, your entire criticism against this study is (A) He
only took 200 samples. How many samples would YOU recommend? 2000?
2,000,000? (B) It goes against intuition, i.e. what YOU believe, and
therefore CANNOT reflect reality, because You Said So.

Tell me this, Kenny. Would you believe ANY scientific study that
contradicted you?

Also, let me construct a situation here. Let's say that you assert that
the majority of drivers on a particular stretch of highway with a 40
mph speed limit are driving at 47 mph, something you believe from
a combination of your own experience, talking with others who drive
that stretch of road, and a comparison of the speeding tickets of those
who've received them on this stretch. Now say that you received a 
$200,000 grant from a private donor to sit in the bushes for a year
with a radar gun measuring everybody's speed. The majority of drivers
are measured as driving 42 mph. What is your reaction to this? Pick one.

A. Hmm. All that talk about everybody driving 47 mph here, and it
turns out that people are really driving 42 mph after all.

B. There must have been something wrong with the way I was taking the
measurements. No way could people have been only driving 42 mph!

C. Studies? I don't need studies....percentages etc. to explain MY
position, because most people realize that few studies reflect any kind
of general reality, and usually a skewed or biased reality from the get go.
Only when the study agrees with my position will I accept it.

Also, do you have any faith at all in science or the scientific method?
Have you ever taken any science classes? Are all scientists full of
it, or only ones that do traffic studies?

-- 
Adam Villani
[email-masked]
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."

---

From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 17:07:36

>are measured as driving 42 mph. What is your reaction to this? Pick one.

I think that's obvious. Someone sitting in the bushes for a year who
got the result YOU suggested.  You bet. Absolutely. I'd buy it.
I only wish the studies done and suggested on this board were
like THAT.>
>it, or only ones that do traffic studies?

Adam, you raise good points, but as I type this, I am watching
a statistician on the stand at OJ trial trying to tell the jury that 
the stats conclude that the evidence against him are probably flawed.
I believe studies that are formulated in the example YOU gave.
The fer shers.  As I say, the ones I've seen....nope.
Thanks for the post. I know you are sometimes tempted
to get "flamy". Thanks for resisting.

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic" responding to

---

From: [email-masked] (Kevin Atkinson)
Date: 8 Aug 1995 00:58:30 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
>I only wish the studies done and suggested on this board were

A lot of them ARE done like that.  No someone does not sit in the bushes.  
Instead they use loops in the road to measure speed of passing vehicles.  
A completly unbias method (some may slow down for a rador gun if they have
a detector).  I suggest you ask for the traffic studies for some of these 
roads.  CA by LAW is required to give them, to you.

>The fer shers.  As I say, the ones I've seen....nope.

Yes, I know studies can be flawed.  I watched a 20/20 eposide that makes 
that very point.  Many of the 55 kills study have been PROVEN to be 
flawed in the reasoning.  The Federal Goverment Study however has not 
been PROVEN to be flawed.  The federal goverment attempted to burry that 
study after giving it extensive review.  I am SURE that if it was flawwed 
the goverment would have found the flaw and dismissed it.  It however 
was not flawed so they tried to burry it.

I am a skeptic myself and I don't belive data I think is flawed and the 
studys at my web site or NOT flawed by any means.

-- 
* Kevin Atkinson, Clarknet I'net Serv., Maintainer of the Usenet Info Center *
*     Finger [email-masked] for more info on Usenet Info Center.         *
*    Or send mail to [email-masked]  with a subject line of HELP.        *
*  This is in its beginning stages and I could use any help I could get!     *

---

From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 02:58:24

In article <[email-masked]> Kevin Atkinson wrote:

>They DO show what really happing.  Ok if a LA freeway speed limit went up
>to 85 mph (well above the 85th percentile speed on almost any road) do you 
>honesly think most people will do 95-100? (Challenge ONE)

Nope. I don't. Because Americans are NOT trained to be able to
handle these speeds safely. A small % WOULD go 95-100.  That's
not the point.  There will be NO 85 speed limit in yours or my lifetime.
The issue is if raised to 65 or 75, will they exceed.  I say ABSOLUTELY.

Thanks for your post.  I would not ignore an intelligently stated challenge
like yours.  I ignore the flamers.  I don't have a 7 second delay in
cyberspace to do to them what I do to them on the air.

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"

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From: [email-masked] (Kevin Atkinson)
Date: 7 Aug 1995 15:45:47 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,

Please keep in mind that the 55 zones tend to be the zones with all the 
traffic.

I suggest you read the NMA zooning standards (at http://www.clark.net
/pub/kevina/sl/nma-zone.html) very clossly if you have't already.  The 
idea here is to set the speed limits to the 85th percentile speed and use 
it as a GUIDELINE but not as an ABSOLUTE limit.  With there proposed 
standards an officer can arrest ou for going faster then the flow of 
traffic even if it is below the posted limit.  It also states (in a round
about way) that you may legally exceed the speed limit if the speed you 
are not driving in an unsafe or irresponsible manner.  For example if 
there are no cars on the road etc....

---

From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 14:10:38

ABSOLUTELY!

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"

---

From: [email-masked] (Kevin Atkinson)
Date: 8 Aug 1995 01:14:37 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
>>Ok if 55 zones were raised to 75 do you think drivers will go 85?

Really?  Even on a congested higway going through a city.  Unless everone 
starts going 85 (HIGHLY unlikely considering many vehicles can't do that 
speed like old school buses (top off of about 60-65), certain vans (top off
of around (70-75) and all other cars with small engines),  I really don't 
think that people will do 85 because they in order to do that speed they 
will have to start weeving there way trough traffic etc...

>Everyone flies past me.  As they do I yell..."Thanks for my

Yes and there is a very good reason for that.  Generally when the limit 
is 65 the road becomes dence in traffic and people can safely do 75-85
with out killing anyone.  This won't happen in urban interstates -- 
espacally twisty ones like the capital beltway (i am from maryland so I 
can't give any california roads).

>discussion and your advocacy of your position.  Thanks.
I know what they are saying.  True I may not like it however I don't 
belive they REALLY will DO what they say they would after all there 
answer was "probably".