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Dear Sir,

Namaskarams!! Thanks for the clarifications. 

I found the manu's translations here.
http://www.sibal.com/sandeep/texts/manu.html 

I am listing below some of Manu's slokas(translations) which I find 
discriminatory. They might have been mistranslated. It would be great 
if you can clarify the below translations for me. 

Kiran

---------------------------------------------------------------

A Kshatriya, having defamed a Brahmana, shall be fined one hundred 
(panas); a Vaisya one hundred and fifty or two hundred; a Sudra 
shall suffer corporal punishment.
A Brahmana shall be fined fifty (panas) for defaming a Kshatriya; 
in (the case of) a Vaisya the fine shall be twenty-five (panas); 
in (the case of) a Sudra twelve.
For offences of twice-born men against those of equal caste 
(varna, the fine shall be) also twelve (panas); for speeches which 
ought not to be uttered, that (and every fine shall be) double.
A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross 
invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low 
origin.
If he mentions the names and castes (gati) of the (twice-born) 
with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust 
red-hot into his mouth.
If he arrogantly teaches Brahmanas their duty, the king shall 
cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears.
He who through arrogance makes false statements regarding the 
learning (of a caste-fellow), his country, his caste (gati), or 
the rites by which his body was sanctified, shall be compelled to 
pay a fine of two hundred (panas).
He who even in accordance with the true facts (contemptuously) 
calls another man one-eyed, lame, or the like (names), shall be 
fined at least one karshapana.
He who defames his mother, his father, his wife, his brother, his 
son, or his teacher, and he who gives not the way to his 
preceptor, shall be compelled to pay one hundred (panas).
(For mutual abuse) by a Brahmana and a Kshatriya a fine must be 
imposed by a discerning (king), on the Brahmana the lowest 
amercement, but on the Kshatriya the middlemost.
A Vaisya and a Sudra must be punished exactly in the same manner 
according to their respective castes, but the tongue (of the 
Sudra) shall not be cut out; that is the decision.
Thus the rules for punishments (applicable to cases) of defamation 
have been truly declared; I will next propound the decision (of 
cases) of assault.
With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the 
three) highest (castes), even that limb shall be cut off; that is 
the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off; he 
who in anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off.
A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a 
man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, 
or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed.
But if a Brahmana unintentionally kills a Kshatriya, he shall 
give, in order to purify himself, one thousand cows and a bull;
Or he may perform the penance prescribed for the murderer of a 
Brahmana during three years, controlling himself, wearing his hair 
in braids, staying far away from the village, and dwelling at the 
root of a tree.
A Brahmana who has slain a virtuous Vaisya, shall perform the same 
penance during one year, or he may give one hundred cows and one 
(bull).
He who has slain a Sudra, shall perform that whole penance during 
six months, or he may also give ten white cows and one bull to a 
Brahmana.
Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an 
iguana, an owl, or a crow, he shall perform the penance for the 
murder of a Sudra;
----------------------------------------------------------------



--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "SS <pataps@xxxx>" <pataps@xxxx> 
wrote:
> srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
> 
> Dear Sri Kiran:
> 
> Manu's words in general have been much maligned in recent times for 
a 
> couple of reasons:
> 
> 1. A poor understanding of the context of manu dharama shAstra
> 2. A potentially poor translation of the original as the source 
> material.
> 
> If one needs to comprehend ideas expounded in manu dharma shAstra, 
it 
> is important to have some grounding in shAstras in general (read 
some 
> formal vEdic / upanishadic training) and a good understanding of 
the 
> sanskrit language. Manu Smriti has 2684 shlokas (or aphorisms) 
that 
> capture the entire gamut of the rights and wrongs of human behavior 
> within the context of vEdic dharma.
> 
> I do not know what specific shlOkas you have a problem with (or is 
it 
> all of manu smrithi?), but if you can provide specific references, 
I 
> will attempt to translate the actual shlOka and may be then we can 
> try to reflect on the meanings.
> 
> In general, manu smrithi is extremely severe on any one who is a 
> charlatan. A brahmin who adopts practices or dharma in 
contradiction 
> to his ordained dharma is more severely punished than someone who 
is 
> a shudra by varNa for the same offence. A King who steals is to be 
> punished with a 1000 fold severity for an offence of an ordinary 
> subject. 
> 
> The logical question one may ask is the relevance of manu dharma 
> neethi in times like ours where it is hard to find human beings who 
> live a dharmic life as ordained by the shAstras, within the 
> parameters of their varNa. Most people who call themselves as 
> brahmins these days, per manu, will have to suffer severe 
> punishment / dis-membering, given the absence of ordained 
> anushTAnam. 
> 
> All vEdic acharyas, including Swamy Ramanuja, held manu dharma 
neethi 
> in high esteem. And there is very good reason. It ties all of 
> manifestation, sentient and prakrithi, to the same supreme source. 
> Manu smrithi begins with a description of the manifest universe, as 
> undertaken by parabrahman srimannArAyaNa (I-10), on the basis of 
guNa 
> and karma. 
> 
> Let me provide a simple illustration from chapter I:
> 
> lOkAnAm tu vivrudyartham mukha bAhoorupAdathaha
> brahmaNam kshatriyam vaishyam shoodram cha niravartayat (I-31)
> 
> for the worlds to function effectively, the body is classified as 
> follows: brAhmaNa as the face, kshatriya as the shoulders/arms, 
vysya 
> by the thighs (Ooru) and shoodra by the feet (pAda). Clearly, 
every 
> organ system in the human body is equally important. And they all 
> have complementary roles. 
> 
> The manifest swaroopam of mankind, stemming from the paramAtma 
> (reference to purusha sooktam here: brAhmoNOsya mukhamAseet bAhoo 
> rAjanyah kruthaha etc) also implies the complimentary functionality 
> of different components emanating from the ultimate divinity. It 
> does not discriminate, nor does it dictate that it is possible to 
> function in the absence of any specific unit.
> 
> Manu neethi is no different from legal codes we have for different 
> societies these days. We do hang our murderers, incarcerate the 
> rapists and put away those that pillage. It provides a 
comprehensive 
> guide book for the do's and dont's of life, with reason. However, 
it 
> is important to recognize that none of this is cast in stone, nor 
is 
> it meant to be. It also invests authority in the hands of the 
> intellectuals and kings to implement the laws consistent with the 
> requirements of a given situation. Manu smrithi is a guide book, 
it 
> gives you the freedom to interpret the rules consistent with the 
> context. Much as we may not put to death all murderers, manu 
neethi 
> ordains the ruler, guided by the intellectual (gnyAni) to implement 
> the code of conduct fairly. And ordains severe punishment for the 
> king or the brahmin who transgress on the basis of inadequate or 
> improper interpretation.
> 
> It is important to understand that, much as we realize that of 
every 
> human being is connected to the ultimate divinity, we will not 
accept 
> transgressions from people when they hurt the innocent. A rapist 
> needs to suffer the kArmic consequences of his (or her) cruelty. A 
> thief needs to be punished for him to not puruse the same activity 
> again. We do not let people who have not gone through formal 
> schooling get into our colleges (examples of how rigid our system 
is, 
> just that we accept or do not reflect on these).
> 
> A lot of manu neethi, especially when read as a translation, will 
> sound very harsh. However, if one has the wherewithal to peruse 
the 
> whole tome (over 12 chapters and 2700 aphorisms), one will 
understand 
> the tie-in to fairness, humanity and divinity.
> 
> aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,
> 
> sridhar
> 
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "indkirru <indkirru@xxxx>" 
> <indkirru@xxxx> wrote:
> > Namaskarams!!
> > Dear Sir,
> > Thanks a lot for the clarification!! I still have one more 
> > question which was uncleared. 
> > 
> > Why did Manu talk of innaccessibility of Vedas(Scriptures) to 
> certain 
> > classes of people? What is your opinion about Manu's words? 
> > 
> > When I read Manu's words, I immediately rejected his words.I felt
> > (still feel) that his words do not deserve to be quoted or 
> followed. 
> > I wanted to see if my point of View is right or not. 
> > 
> > My approach to Spritualism is that "We begin to be spiritual only 
> if 
> > we start seeing everyone as part of that Supreme. So a natural 
> > implication of that would be , as you said "There can be NO 
Caste, 
> > Community, Language barriers in this area." So Can Manu be right?
> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > Kiran
> >





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