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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00032 May 2005

 
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Hare Krishna.

Please accept my humble obeisances.

Many thanks to Srimati Janaki and Sri Sampatkumar for
their mail.

No question is offensive provided that it is asked
with humility and respect for everyone concerned.

Before sharing my thoughts on this issue, let me first
thank all the Sri Vaishnavas here for their wonderful
contributions and the high standards of Vaishnava
etiquette that they have displayed. I know some of the
devotees personally like Sri Madhavakkannan and
greatly appreciate his association and translation
work which has given me much solace and bliss. I am a
member of many Vaishnava lists and not many display
the culture and mutual respect present on this list.
This is my humble and honest observation and
appreciation.

The issue of Narayana vs Krishna as the primeval lord
is primarily related to the manner in which each
Vaishnava tradition formulates its approach to
understanding the entire corpus of Vedic literatures.
It is also related to how each sampradaya presents the
ultimate achievement of the jiva. The Gaudiya
Vaishnava viewpoint is one of rasa in which Sri
Krishna is seen as akhila-rasamrta-murti, i.e. He
manifests in full all the rasas to be exchanged
between ishvara and jiva. The Gaudiya approach is one
of seeing the Lord as rasa vigraha. Hence, the primacy
of form is seen in terms of rasa tattva. However, even
Srila Krishna Kaviraja Goswami, after presenting the
Gaudiya viewpoint on this matter, states that seeing
Narayana as the primeval lord and Sri Krishna as
vibhava is also possible by virtue of the unlimited
capacity of the Lord.

The nature of tarka, nyaya shastra and pramana is
sometimes dumbfounding because the multiplicity of
meanings, both external and internal, can lead to
multiple interpretations. What one sampradaya sees as
an amazing internal meaning is taken by another as
being too far-fetched and overstretched by way of
personal biasness and poetic imagination. One strand
of nyaya can support a certain position while another 
supports a seemingly opposite view. Srila Jiva Goswami
in his Krishna Sandarbha gives many points to support
Sri Krishna's primacy and Narayana's position as the
former's vilasa expansions. However, the Sri
Vaishnavas also have their arguments to counter. But
amidst all this, we have to understand that spiritual
reality is very difficult to decipher from a purely
logical viewpoint. Divine revelation itself can make
multiple impressions on the minds of different
liberated personalities.

On a personal note, I would tend NOT to approach this
issue on the basis of correctness and error for what
is food to one may be poison to another. When 2 giants
argue, who am I as a mouse to decide who is right and
who is wrong ? I must either be another giant or the
Lord who has revealed Himself to these giants to make
decisions. I'd rather humbly take my position as a
mouse and give every respect to the giants, understand
their viewpoints and go on serving the Lord in my
affiliated sampradaya. 

Sri Mudumby Narasimhachary, former head of the
Department of Vaishnavism at the University of Madras
has written a wonderful article for the ISKCON
Communications Journal in which he addresses these
issues, both in connection with the kalai differences
in Sri Vaishnavism as well as those amongst the
various Vaishnavas sampradayas. His attitude and
approach if adopted by us, will strengthen our
solidarity as lovers of Narayana and Krishna. His
article may be found at
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/8_2/narasim.html

Personally, I am an aspiring Gaudiya Vaishnava at the
lotus feet of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada. It is only through His Divine
Grace's books and presentations that I have come to
know of the glories of Sripad Ramanujacharya. His
Divine Grace although presenting the Gaudiya Vaishnava
viewpoint on these issues in his works, has not
focused on knit-picking such theological differences
with a view to faultfinding other sampradayas. Rather,
he has presented devotional service to Krishna/Vishnu
in  a general sense with due respect to all the
Vaishnava Acharyas. In fact, during his visit to
London, one devotee already initiated into the Sri
Vaishnava line requested him for re-initiation into
the Gaudiya line. Srila Prabhupada told him that this
was not necessary since he already had an acharya in a
bona fide Vaishnava line and doing so would be
disrespectful. He told him to merely take to Krishna's
names and serve Lord Chaitanya's mission. Likewise,
Sripada Baladeva Vidyabhushana gave the same response
to the Ramanandis who had wanted to take initiation
from him at Galta.

My basic point is that issues related to in-depth
theological discernment should be left to the
individual, but appropriate etiquette should not be
marred by mere adherence to one's own sense of
correctness based purely on logic for as indicated
before, logic is in itself multi-faceted.

I have known many devotees from other sampradayas
besides my own. Some of them are downright offensive
while others are merely tolerant. Yet others, are
truly and positively appreciative. In all lines, we
are going to meet people of all of these tendencies. 
Whatever issue we may take on this issue, we should
remember that the Vedas are kalpataru -  desire tree
and they fulfil many desires for many persons. 

Hare Krishna.


your servant,
r. jai simman,
jakarta, indonesia .


--- ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> There are 4 messages in this issue.
> 
> Topics in this digest:
> 
>       1. Re: draupadi saraNAgathi - from srI
> vanamAmalai padmanabhan
>            From: "Lakshmi Narasimhan"
> <nrusimhann@xxxxxxxxx>
>       2. Hurrah! 100 Members
>            From: "sriramdasty7"
> <sriramdasty7@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>       3. Parathvam of Sriman Narayana Vs. Krishna
>            From: "Janaki & Sampath Kumar"
> <janasampath@xxxxxxxxx>
>       4. Sri Srinivaasa Vaibhavam- BhoothatthAzhwAr
> anubhavam of ThiruvEnkatam- 7- [46 th verse]
>            From: Madhavakkannan V
> <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 1         
>    Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:10:07 -0000
>    From: "Lakshmi Narasimhan" <nrusimhann@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: draupadi saraNAgathi - from srI
> vanamAmalai padmanabhan
> 
> "drowpathikku AbhaththilE pudavai surandhadhu
> thirunAmamirE"
> Draupadi did not perform saranAgathi though she used
> the 
> word "raksha mAm sharanAgatam". So, it was the
> Govinda nAmam that 
> helped her and not her saranAgathi. This is from
> swAmi 
> pillailokachAriar's choornikai(vachanabhooshanam?).
> 
> Link: 
>
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppiliappan/archives/jan05/msg00010.h
> tml
> 
> adiyEn,
> dAsan
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Varadhan T A
> <tavaradhan@xxxx> 
> wrote:
> >  srImathE rAmAnujAya namah
> >  
> > dear devotees,
> > srI padmanabhan svAmi requested me to forward a
> series of mails on 
> draupadi saraNagathi. Attached is part 1.
> >  
> > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,
> > varadhan
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.
> > 
> > Dear Smt Subha Narayanan,
> > 
> > You have raised some pertinent questions, the
> answers for which 
> can be many depending upon one's understanding of
> scriptures. Let me 
> attempt one based on how I understand them. I
> planned to write my 
> views in 2 parts, one on how Draupadi was nowhere
> near thought of 
> vengeance and how the concept of 'sharanagathi' is
> to be understood 
> and interpreted. Meantime I read sri Sudharshan
> swami's mail to you, 
> and am sending the first part now and deferring the
> 2nd part to know 
> what he is going to say. 
> > 
> > First of all, the original text does not speak
> about any display 
> of anger, outrage or revenge by Draupadi. She
> presents herself as 
> piteous, sufficiently humiliated and yet having full
> faith in the 
> sense of morality of Yudhishtra. On a couple of
> occasions, it was 
> Bhima who shows anger against his eldest brother and
> takes the 
> kauravas to task, but never once does Draupadi
> display her anger 
> against the perpetrators of crime. Such descriptions
> must have been 
> added in later day versions. I request you to go to 
>
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/mb/m02/m02066.htm
> 
> > 
> > to read the original version. (My thanks to Sri
> Krishnaswamy swami 
> who sent me this link.)
> > 
> >    Let me highlight two instances for immediate
> reference for you. 
> When the Pandavas were leaving for the forest, after
> having been 
> made to play dice once again, after the humiliation
> of Panchali was 
> over, it was the cunning words of Dussasana that
> provoked Bhima to 
> make the terrible vow. (earlier too, after the
> humiliation to 
> draupadi was done, Bhima pledges to vanquish the
> perpetrator) He 
> made vows on the behalf of others too, which were
> eventually 
> seconded by other brothers themselves. But Panchali
> was quiet. This 
> is how the scene unfolds:- 
> > Dussasana says, "And O Yajnaseni, what joy will be
> thine upon 
> beholding in the woods these thy husbands dressed in
> skins and 
> thread-bare rags, deprived of their wealth and
> possessions. Elect 
> thou a husband, whomsoever thou likest, from among
> all these present 
> here. These Kurus assembled here, are all forbearing
> and self-
> controlled, and possessed of great wealth. Elect
> thou one amongst 
> these as thy lord, so that these great calamity may
> not drag thee to 
> wretchedness. 'The sons of Pandu now are even like
> grains of sesame 
> without the kernel, or like show-animals encased in
> skins, or like 
> grains of rice without the kernel. Why shouldst thou
> then longer 
> wait upon the fallen sons of Pandu? Vain is the
> labour used upon 
> pressing the sesame grain devoid of the kernel!'
> > 
> > "Thus did Dussasana, the son of Dhritarashtra,
> utter in the 
> hearing of the Pandavas, harsh words of the most
> cruel import. And 
> hearing them, the unforbearing Bhima, in wrath
> suddenly approaching 
> that prince like a Himalayan lion upon a jackal,
> loudly and 
> chastisingly rebuked him in these
> words,--Wicked-minded villain, 
> ravest thou so in words that are uttered alone by
> the sinful? 
> Boastest thou thus in the midst of the kings,
> advanced as thou art 
> by the skill of the king of Gandhara. As thou
> piercest our hearts 
> hear with these thy arrowy words, so shall I pierce
> thy heart in 
> battle, recalling all this to thy mind. And they
> also who from anger 
> or covetousness are walking behind thee as thy
> protectors,--them 
> also shall I send to the abode of Yama with their
> descendants and 
> relatives."
> > 
> > Vaisampayana continued,--Unto Bhima dressed in
> deer-skins and 
> uttering these words of wrath without doing any
> thing, for he could 
> not deviate from the path of virtue, Dussasana
> abandoning all sense 
> of shame, dancing around the Kurus, loudly said, 'O
> cow! O cow!'
> > 
> > Bhima at this once more said,--Wretch darest thou,
> O Dussasana, 
> use harsh words as these? Whom doth it behove to
> boast, thus having 
> won wealth by foul means? I tell thee that if
> Vrikodara, the son of 
> Pritha, drinketh not thy life-blood, piercing open
> thy breast in 
> battle, let him not
> > 
> > p. 148
> > 
> > attain to regions of blessedness, I tell thee
> truly that by 
> slaying the sons of Dhritarashtra in battle, before
> the very eyes of 
> all the warriors, I shall pacify this wrath of mine
> soon enough.'"
> > 
> > Vaisampayana continued,--"And as the Pandavas were
> going away from 
> the assembly, the wicked king Duryodhana from excess
> of joy mimiced 
> 
=== message truncated ===



                
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