Dear members, praNAmams Thank you for the clarification, Sri Rajagopal Kannan swAmin, as to what the definition of archakar is and what the distinction between the different roles are. What I was referring to is that there were clearly adult males *without* yagnyopaveetam serving close to Thaayaar, offering manjakkaappu to the devotees, and if I mistakenly called these people 'archakars' then I am sorry for the mistake. Part of this arises from the confusion with my using the English word 'priest' to describe a number of different distinct temple roles. The reaction I was a little saddened by is the assumption that other castes are not pure enough to serve close to the deities as per Varnashramam. These people, whether they are called 'kainkarya parALs' or 'archakars' or whatever, were close to Thaayaar's vigraham and distributing the prasaadam, that is the main thing that I meant to convey. I thank yourself and Sri K.P. Sarathy swAmin for clarifying what their roles are. But I would have thought that in traditional varNaashramam, non-dvijas would not be allowed so close to the idol because they would be deemed impure? Please clarify. Dear Sri Mukundan Pattangi swAmin, I am guessing that the specific "mis-quote" of Bhagavad Ramanuja that pained you was mine, in which case I am very sorry if that caused you pain, but I would like you to clarify what was incorrect with my quoting of Ramanuja Gita Bhashya 18:47. "Doing one's duty...", as per the commentary there, does not seem to mention anything about the jobs for different varnas or jatis, it seems to talk only about Jnaana Yoga and Karma Yoga, as per my reading. If my quoting of that passage has caused you hurt then I am truly sorry, as it is not my wish to hurt anyone's feelings. I completely understand the concern that those hereditary archakar families who are being displaced in the current climate are facing tremendous problems and facing losing a livelihood. I think even those of us who have supported the possibility of non-Brahmins becoming priests would not doubt that this is a terrible situation for those poor Brahmin families - no-one with any humanity would wish the loss of livelihood on anyone, brahmin or otherwise. My own great grandfather on my mother's side served as the archakar in a temple in Tippur, Karnataka and my grandfather himself was also trained in this role before becoming an architect. So I have no desire to be "politically correct" when people's livelihoods are at stake, and I am sure those who are favourable to the possibility of non-brahmins becoming priests also would not wish such misfortune on those poor brahmin families. I think your charge that we are falling prey to the arguments of "non-believers" is a little harsh, though. We are merely expressing a legitimate doubt of ours. I would like to illustrate the flip side of the coin with a family anecdote. My father's family hail from one of the Divya Desams (which will remain unnamed for now) and knew many of those involved in temple affairs (whether they were archakars or doing veda parayanam I don't know; suffice it to say they were brahmins in close proximity to the Deity on a daily basis). My father's family were close enough to them to know that some of them were regularly drinking ***alcohol, consuming forbidden foods and having all sorts of extra-marital relations***. Now *please* before anyone jumps on this I am not suggesting *for one moment* that this is the state of all brahmins in all temples, which would be a gross bhAgavata apAchAram. I am just telling you the facts in one particular case that I know of. Here is one instance where heredity has not worked at preserving the high standards of sampradaayam and shaastram. I am no expert on dharmashaastra or aagama to know what the "dos-and-donts" are with regard to which jaatis can serve in temples. But when so many "don'ts" are already being commited, especially by those who we look up to, I think it is legitimate to ask the question "are we losing focus"? I have no qualification to say "we must have non-Brahmin archakas in temples" but when faced with the possibility of a sincere, devoted non-Brahmin who is willing himself to put in the hours of training, learning and live according to the high standards required, we should at least be allowed to ask the question, "why not?". I would suggest that accusing us of falling for media propaganda if we ask such questions is a little extreme perhaps, and does suggest that we can't think for ourselves. Lastly as I said, it is my hope that we express compassion first and foremost in all our opinions, whichever side we fall on. Let us wish the brahmin archakar community well, let us also wish well to those of other communities who want to offer sincere service in the temple, let us also cultivate a humble attitude of devotion within ourselves and our families - perhaps this is really the key to how we will preserve our tradition, rather than wasting our energy getting upset at the government, the Empire and any other past rulers. sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva namO nArAyaNAya Ranjan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/.itolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam http://www.vedics.net Yahoo! 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