SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. Dear Sri Soundara rajan, You have raised some questions based on my mail on seshatwam and parathanthiryam. Let me deal with them one by one. > There is also an analogy of father and son. I am not able to understand hoe this helps to understand these concepts. -------------------- Any analogy depicting the relationship between seshin and sesha who happen to be finite objects can not exactly explain the relationship between God and the Jiva. Such a relationship can be fully understood only when it happens between the Infinite and the finite. (Though the jiva is of Infinite nature, it is hereby referred to as finite owing to prakriti sambhandam and in being caught in the cycle of birth and death). Vedartha sangraha says (verse: 250) ?there is no relationship of the principlal and the subsidiary between anyone other than Brahman and oneself?. Therefore every other instance, (as I showed between father and son) can not be a perfect one. However I took it up for the sake of bringing out some understanding. The specific instance of an ideal relationship between father and son is some thing that can be conceived as the highest that can happen at the mundane level because scriptures say that a man is born as/in his son. In a typical father ?son relationship that existed until a generation ago (even now in some families) the son (though almost like a clone of his father in many or all respects - taken as an assumption to explain the relationship) plays a subsidiary role to father, doing things for the father or for father?s sake/pleasure (s) and taking father?s orders always (p). I request the readers to read my previous mail in the light of above assumption. ----------------------------- >According to the commentaries by Periavachan Pillai , Sehatvam is what Lakshmana showed when >obeying his brother Sri Rama. Paratantriyam is the quality that we see in Bharata's attitude to Sri Rama. >Our achryas have admired more the quality of paratantriyam. Shatrugana's paratantryam to Bharatha is >even considered superior. ----------------------------------------- I assume that Sri Soundara rajan wonders why I left out the instances of Lakshmana and Bharatha. First of all, my previous mail was an attempt with my little knowledge, to understand the concepts of S and P better. I took up Sita Piratti?s case, for, to my little mind it appears that every moment in Sita?s life depicts some or the other of these two qualities. The upayam as shown by Piratti in having shed her ?swa-shakthi? is easier to grasp and it is possible to empathise with those moments. There is some corollary to what Sita piratti says or does to what happens to us, the average persons. Even when she forcefully and tearfully pleads with Rama to take her along with him during vana vasa, there is that subdued tone of ?irainjuthal?, (hey Rama, idu nyaayamaa? Ennai nee vidalaamaa?). I find closer understanding to Sita?s position than to say, Lakshmana?s position which seems to be beyond my scope. He behaves like an alter-self of Rama when he advised him against pursuing the golden deer. (whereas I, as ordinary jivan am more inclined to speak irrationally even in my prayers to Rama ). Similarly Lakshmana behaves like the conscience of Rama when he faced the dilemma of whether or not to let the sage (Dhurvasa?) in, when Rama was closeted in a meeting with the deva-thoodas who had come to tell Rama that the time had come for Rama to leave the earthly plane. (Source : Raghu vamsam). The complicated nuances about Lakshmana and Bharatha have been best explained by Acharyas. But Sita?s message looks less complicated and easy to grasp as has been found in Shreevachana bhooshanam. -------------------------------------- >Similar concepts are found when the jiva attains paramapada for divine service after his moksha. ----------------------------------------- These were quoted by me (from Vedartha sangraha) in my reply to Sri Balaji?s queries and not in the mail under discussion. ------------------------------------ >The concepts of Samipya,Sarupya and Sayujya come to the picture. >Though the liberated souls attain the nearness of the Lord and also the divyadeham like the Lord, they do not have all the powers of the Lord. For ex., they do not have the power to create anything. ----------------------------------- Yes, so many other factors also invariably come into discussion when one looks at it globally, i.e., before Release (as explained in Mumukshppadi) and after Release (as found in the last chapter of Brahma sutras.) To explain this let me do the analysis methodically. (1) First of all, what is seshatwam and parathanthiryam? (2) What is explained of them in verses 92, 93 &94 in Mumukshuppadi (MP)? (3) What happens of them after these verses? (i.e., after bhoga dasai)? (4) The 3rd question is taken up because verse 92 speaks about Eshwaran in the process of destroying seshatwam. But MP advises us not to leave it. Why? (5) Does this mean that seshatwam continues or does not continue afterwards. If so or if not so, why and how? The first question has been extensively discussed in this forum, though with the realisation that there are no equivalent terms in English to explain them. But the definition of sesha-seshi bhava has been given by Bhagavad Ramanuja in Vedartha sangraha (VS). Verse 182 says, ? The real and universal definition of sesha and the seshin (the subsidiary and the principal) must be enunciated as follows: That whose nature lies solely in being valued through a desire to contribute a special excellence to another entity is the sesha. The other is seshin (i.e., that to which the subsidiary contributes special excellence)? Ramanuja in his Gita Bhashyam to verse 7-16 on the 4th type of devote who happens to be a ?man of knowledge? describes him as one who has the knowledge of the essential nature of the self in being a sesha. So the knowledge about seshatwam and adherence to the same are the essential qualities that one desirous of knowing Him and attaining Him must possess. The pramana for this statement is verse 243 of VS. ?He is the principal entity (Seshin). The individual is subservient to Him. If a seeker meditates on the Supreme with a full consciousness of this relationship (between the Lord and himself) as the principal entity and subsidiary entity and if the Supreme Brahman so meditated upon becomes an object of supreme love to the devotee, then He Himself effectuates god- realisation.? Shedding of ?swa-prayojanam? (SVB) is what seshatwam is all about. When one sheds ?aham? and is steadfast on ?na mama? (not mine) (Mp-86 ? it is to be noted that the importance of nama: shabhdam precedes the crucial version in verses 94, 95 & 96), he starts doing things for the Lord. (explained in simple terms, this means that even eating food is done for the prayojanam of God and not for oneself. As Bhagavan has his body as His body, the sesha eats for the sake of Bhagavan and not for satisfying his own appetite.) This is about a ?man of knowledge? who understands ?vasudeva: sarvam ithi?. What God does about this man is explained in verse 92. Verse 92 says that Bhagavan is in the process of destroying seshatwam and the subsequent verses explain why He seeks to destroy it. (already explained in this forum). But the continuation into Narayana padaartham thereafter, (95 onwards - which indicates the beginning of the conclusion of MP about moksham which is best understood/explained as ?mutthanaar mukundanaar pugundu nammuL mEvinaar?.) shows that this state (92) marks the process of God ?effectuating God-realisation?. (VS) The above explanation is given to drive home the point that the process of destroyal of seshatwam by the Lord and the establishment of the supremacy of parathanthiryam (in verse 94) takes place before Release or in bhoga dasai. Because it is He who effectuates god-realisation and not he, the jiva. But that the bhoga dasai continues or stays for ever is established in Brahma sutras. (4-4-21 :- ? And because of the indication of equality of enjoyments only (for the released self with the Brahman)?). That means Bhagavan is ever merciful to destroy the disparity between Himself and the Jiva. But the Jiva which is an embodiment of Knowledge (now than ever before as it is a realised soul) still holds on to its sesha bhava because it knows that He is still his master and he, His servant. This is understood from the last sutra which says that there is no return to samsara for the Jiva. Ramanuja says (abridged), ? He bestows the supreme and unsurpassed bliss (on the released soul) which consists of experiencing Him in His own nature; and He does not cause them to return to samsara.? (questions 3,4 &5 are explained by this). It is He who effectuated the God-realisation. Once again it is He makes them enjoy Him and again it is He who does not send them back to Samsara. The status of Him as Principal entity thus continues/exists for ever. Therefore the sesha bhava of the jiva though in Infinite mode now, continues forever. But the question now is since the sesha ?seshi bhava can exist between Infinite and the finite (as we said earlier), what is the new equation now as the jiva has been restored (poor vocabulary regretted) to its Infinite mode. The explanation given above based on MP and Brahma sutras does indicate that the bhava continues though He has pervaded the jiva (Mutthanaar?). This is reinforced by another quality namely parathanthiryam by which the released jiva continues to shed ?swa-yathnam? as it was doing in the embodied state (SVB). ?KrupaiyaalE varum parathanthiryatthai-k-kaattil, swAthanthiryatthaalE varum pASrathanthiryam prabhalam? (SVB). Sage Vishwamithra slipped on this account. But there is no compromise on this aspect. (Brahma sutra 4-4-17). Bhagavan is keen on destroying seshattwam but not pArathanthiryam. This shows pArathanthiryam is way ahead of seshattwam. In seshatwam the jiva does action for the sake of Him (expecting no benefits for himself) whereas in pArathanthiryam He does the action through him (with no self-efforts by the jiva). This is best summarised in the Sri bhashyam to Brahma sutras.(4-4-19) ? ?On Him the worlds do rest: and no one goes beyond Him? (Kau V ?8). The purport of the passage (Chan VII-xxv-2) that the released self has the freedom to move about as he likes, is this: He experiences the Brahman with the manifestations of His glory and experiences also the enjoyments, lying within the world of change which exist in the world of Hiranyagarbha and similar officers which also fall within Brahman?s glory: therefore cosmic activity does not belong to the released self.? ?If this cosmic control is common to released selves and to Brahman, then Brahman?s extraordinary character of being the cosmic Lord can not hold good.? (4-4-17).Therefore the released soul, though capable of cosmic activity, desists from doing that because it has not been ordained so. Every other activity or enjoyment also takes place - only by His will and not by its wish. The final inference at mundane level is that since He is the Principal entity, every action that the jiva does is for His sake and pleasure (S) and every effort it makes is by order of Him only (P) Inviting comments and corrections, AdiyaaL by name, Jayasree. --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy@xxxx> wrote: > Dear all > > There has been some a good discussion on the concepts of seshaatvam and pararatantriyam dear to the heart of our acharyas. Some thoughts arose in my mind after reading Jayshree Saranathan's letter on the above topic. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ------------------------ Yahoo! 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