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SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

Dear Sri Soundara rajan,
You have raised some questions based on my mail on
seshatwam and parathanthiryam. Let me deal with them
one by one.

> There is also an analogy of father and son. I am not
able to understand hoe this helps to understand these
concepts.

--------------------

Any analogy depicting the relationship between seshin
and sesha who happen to be finite objects can not
exactly explain the relationship between God and the
Jiva. Such a relationship can be fully understood only
when it happens between the Infinite and the  finite.
(Though the jiva is of Infinite nature, it is hereby
referred to as  finite owing to prakriti sambhandam
and in being caught in the cycle of birth and death). 
Vedartha sangraha says (verse: 250) ?there is no
relationship of the principlal and the subsidiary
between anyone other than Brahman and oneself?.
Therefore every other instance, (as I showed between
father and son) can not be a perfect one. However I
took it up for the sake of bringing out some
understanding. The specific instance of an ideal
relationship between father and son is some thing that
can be conceived as the highest that can happen at the
mundane level because scriptures say that a man is
born as/in his son.

In a typical father ?son relationship that existed
until a generation ago (even now in some families) 
the son (though almost like a clone of his father in
many or all respects -  taken as an assumption to
explain the relationship) plays a subsidiary role to
father, doing things for the father or for father?s
sake/pleasure (s) and taking father?s orders always
(p). I request the readers to read my previous mail in
the light of above assumption.


-----------------------------
>According to the commentaries by Periavachan Pillai ,
Sehatvam is what Lakshmana  showed  when >obeying his
brother Sri Rama. Paratantriyam is the quality that we
see in Bharata's attitude to Sri Rama. >Our achryas
have admired more the quality of paratantriyam.
Shatrugana's paratantryam to Bharatha is >even
considered superior.


-----------------------------------------
I assume that Sri Soundara rajan wonders why I left
out the instances of Lakshmana and Bharatha. First of
all, my previous mail was an attempt with my little
knowledge, to understand the concepts of S and P
better. I took up Sita Piratti?s case, for, to my
little mind it appears that every moment in Sita?s
life depicts some or the other of these two qualities.
The upayam as shown by Piratti in having shed her
?swa-shakthi? is easier to grasp and it is possible to
empathise with those moments. There is some corollary
to what Sita piratti says or does to what happens to
us, the average persons. Even when she forcefully and
tearfully pleads with Rama to take her along with him
during vana vasa, there is that subdued  tone of
?irainjuthal?, (hey Rama, idu nyaayamaa? Ennai nee
vidalaamaa?). I find closer understanding to Sita?s
position than to say, Lakshmana?s position which seems
to be beyond my scope. He behaves like an alter-self
of Rama when he advised him against pursuing the
golden deer. (whereas I, as ordinary jivan am  more
inclined to speak irrationally even in my prayers  to
Rama ). 

Similarly Lakshmana behaves like the conscience of
Rama when he faced the dilemma  of whether or not to
let the sage (Dhurvasa?) in,  when Rama was closeted
in a  meeting with the deva-thoodas who had come to
tell Rama that the time had come for Rama to leave the
earthly plane. (Source : Raghu vamsam). The
complicated nuances  about Lakshmana and Bharatha have
been best explained by Acharyas. But Sita?s message
looks less complicated and  easy to grasp as has been
found in Shreevachana bhooshanam.
--------------------------------------

>Similar concepts are found when the jiva attains
paramapada for divine service after his moksha. 

-----------------------------------------
These were quoted by me (from Vedartha sangraha)  in
my reply to Sri Balaji?s queries and not in the mail
under discussion.

------------------------------------
>The concepts of Samipya,Sarupya and Sayujya come to
the picture.
>Though the liberated souls attain the nearness of the
Lord and also the divyadeham like the Lord, they do
not have all the powers of the Lord. For ex., they do
not have the power to create anything.
-----------------------------------

Yes, so many other factors also invariably come into
discussion when one looks at it globally, i.e., before
Release (as explained in Mumukshppadi) and after
Release (as found in the last chapter of Brahma
sutras.) To explain this let me do the analysis
methodically.
(1) First of all, what is seshatwam  and
parathanthiryam?
(2) What is explained of them in verses 92, 93 &94 in
Mumukshuppadi (MP)?
(3) What happens of them after these verses? (i.e.,
after bhoga dasai)?
(4) The 3rd question is taken up because verse 92
speaks about Eshwaran in the process of destroying
seshatwam. But MP advises us not to leave it. Why?
(5) Does this mean that seshatwam continues or does
not continue afterwards. If so or  if not so, why and
how?

The first question has been extensively discussed in
this forum, though with the realisation that there are
no equivalent terms in English to explain them.

But the definition of sesha-seshi bhava has been given
by Bhagavad Ramanuja in Vedartha sangraha (VS). 
Verse 182 says, ? The real and universal definition of
sesha and the seshin (the subsidiary and the
principal) must be enunciated as follows: That whose
nature lies solely in being valued through a desire to
contribute a special excellence to another entity is
the sesha. The other is seshin (i.e., that to which
the subsidiary contributes special excellence)? 
Ramanuja in his Gita Bhashyam to verse 7-16 on the 4th
type of devote who happens to be a ?man of knowledge?
describes him as one who has the knowledge of the
essential nature of the self in being a sesha. So the
knowledge about seshatwam and adherence to the same
are the essential qualities that one desirous of
knowing Him and attaining Him must possess. The
pramana for this statement is verse 243 of VS. ?He is
the principal entity (Seshin). The individual is
subservient to Him. If a seeker meditates on the
Supreme with a full consciousness of this relationship
(between the Lord and himself) as the principal entity
and subsidiary entity and if the Supreme Brahman so
meditated upon becomes an object of supreme love to
the devotee, then He Himself effectuates god-
realisation.?

Shedding of ?swa-prayojanam? (SVB) is what seshatwam
is all about. When one sheds ?aham? and is steadfast
on ?na mama? (not mine)  (Mp-86 ? it is to be noted
that the importance of nama:  shabhdam precedes the
crucial version in verses 94, 95 & 96), he starts
doing things for the Lord. (explained in simple terms,
this means that even eating food is done for the
prayojanam of God and not for oneself. As Bhagavan has
his body as His body, the sesha eats for the sake of
Bhagavan and not for satisfying his own appetite.)
This is about a ?man of knowledge? who understands
?vasudeva: sarvam ithi?. What God does about this man
is explained in verse 92.

Verse 92 says that Bhagavan is in the process of
destroying seshatwam and the subsequent verses explain
why He seeks to destroy it. (already explained in this
forum). But the continuation into Narayana padaartham
thereafter, (95 onwards - which indicates the
beginning of the conclusion of MP about moksham  which
is best understood/explained  as ?mutthanaar
mukundanaar pugundu nammuL mEvinaar?.) shows that this
state (92) marks the process of God ?effectuating
God-realisation?. (VS)

The above explanation is given to drive home the point
that the process of destroyal of seshatwam by the Lord
and the establishment of the supremacy of
parathanthiryam (in verse 94) takes place before
Release or in bhoga dasai. Because it is He who
effectuates god-realisation and not he, the jiva. But
that the bhoga dasai continues or stays for ever is
established in Brahma sutras. (4-4-21 :- ? And because
of the indication of equality of enjoyments only (for
the released self with the Brahman)?).
That means Bhagavan is ever merciful to destroy the
disparity between Himself and the Jiva. But the Jiva
which is an embodiment of Knowledge (now than ever
before as it is a realised soul) still holds on to its
sesha bhava because it knows that He is still his
master and he, His servant. This is understood from
the last sutra which says that there is no return to
samsara for the Jiva. Ramanuja says (abridged), ? He
bestows the supreme and unsurpassed bliss (on the
released soul) which consists of experiencing Him in
His own nature; and He does not cause them to return
to samsara.? (questions 3,4 &5 are explained by this).
It is He who effectuated the God-realisation. Once
again it is He makes them enjoy Him and again it is He
who does not send them back to Samsara. The status of
Him as Principal entity thus continues/exists for
ever. Therefore the sesha bhava of the jiva though in
Infinite mode now, continues forever.

But the question now is since the sesha ?seshi bhava
can exist between Infinite and the finite (as we said
earlier), what is the new equation now as the jiva has
been restored (poor vocabulary regretted) to its
Infinite mode. 
The explanation given above based on MP and Brahma
sutras does indicate that the bhava continues though
He has pervaded the jiva (Mutthanaar?). This is
reinforced by another quality namely parathanthiryam
by which the released jiva continues to shed
?swa-yathnam? as it was doing in the embodied state
(SVB).
?KrupaiyaalE varum parathanthiryatthai-k-kaattil,
swAthanthiryatthaalE varum pASrathanthiryam prabhalam?
(SVB).

Sage Vishwamithra slipped on this account. But there
is no compromise on this aspect. (Brahma sutra
4-4-17). Bhagavan is keen on destroying seshattwam but
not pArathanthiryam. This shows pArathanthiryam is way
ahead of seshattwam. In seshatwam the jiva does action
for the sake of Him (expecting no benefits for
himself) whereas in pArathanthiryam He does the action
through him (with no self-efforts by the jiva). 

This is best summarised in the Sri bhashyam to Brahma
sutras.(4-4-19)
? ?On Him the worlds do rest: and no one goes beyond 
Him? (Kau V ?8). The purport of the passage (Chan
VII-xxv-2) that the released self has the freedom to
move about as he likes, is this: He experiences the
Brahman with the manifestations of His glory and
experiences also the enjoyments, lying within the
world of change which exist in the world of
Hiranyagarbha and similar officers which also fall
within Brahman?s glory: therefore cosmic activity does
not belong to the released self.?

?If this cosmic control is common to released selves
and to Brahman, then Brahman?s extraordinary character
of being the cosmic Lord can not hold good.?
(4-4-17).Therefore the released soul, though capable
of cosmic activity, desists from doing that because it
has not been ordained so. Every other activity or
enjoyment also takes place - only by His will and not
by its wish.

The final inference at mundane level is that since He
is the Principal entity, every action that the jiva
does is for His sake and pleasure (S) and every effort
 it makes is by order of Him only (P)

Inviting comments and corrections, 
AdiyaaL by name, 
Jayasree.


--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, rajan s
<rajan_ramaswamy@xxxx> wrote:
> Dear all
>  
> There has been some a good  discussion on the
concepts of seshaatvam and pararatantriyam dear to the
heart of our acharyas. Some thoughts arose in my mind
after reading Jayshree Saranathan's letter on the
above topic.
>  




                
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