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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00016 Oct 2004

 
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Respected Swamy Accept Dasans'Pranams
Happy to have known references cited as well as Vishnu swamis webcite Which 
adiyen keeping in favourites list for constant refence and mananam purpose.
Adiyens main doubt is sheshtwam being  natural to jiva why it does not 
spontaneously express itself.Karma main reason cited which adiyen is mulling 
over and probably lack of understanding is the block.adiyen is sure to benifit 
from references given and baghavatas kripa
Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

jayasartn <jayasartn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

SrI:

Respected swamin,
As for your query, the swathanthiryam of the jiva is due to 
ignorance, according to Ramanuja's philosophy, caused by karma and 
purva-vasanas. What actually happened in the beginning when creation 
took place in the very very distant past (assumed) when the jiva was 
(?!) Infinite as the Barhman, is explained in the beginning of the 
first chapter of Acharya Hrudhayam. I think the translation of this 
is available in the net.

Secondly how the chetana gets to desire different fruits, the best 
of which is moksha is explained in verse 7-16 of Gita. I request you 
to kindly go through the series of mails "Wonder as worship - 
jignAsu' by Sri MK Sudharshan that are being currently published in 
Tiruvenkatam / Oppiliappan list.

The actual transcendance or regress which, though seem to happen by 
one's own will (swathanthiryam)is actually happening by the Will of 
god is explained in chapter 13, of Gita, 'Daivaasura samapad vibhaga 
yogam".

Another aspect to be taken into consideration is verse 10-10 of gita 
in which the Lord says that He gives Buddhi to the one whom He wants 
to lift. In short Gita gives a lot of insight into this aspect that 
answers your question. But ramanuja philosophy adheres to complete 
dependence of the jiva on Brahman. That means swathanthiryam is 
denied to the soul. But srivaishmavism is divided on finer aspects of 
prapatti from the point of view of swathanthiryam. The sect to which 
I belong, namely Thenkalai does not see any any scope for 
swathanthiryam even in doing prapatti. We take pramanam from 
Mumukshuppadi which says that if you say that you do praaptti that 
amounta to ahamkaaram (I do etc). It is the Lord who gives you the 
rakshanam. Elsewhere in the same grantham, it is said that the lord 
does not discard the one who does prapatti on his own.(It is in this 
vein, the Lord as Sriman Narayana gives delivarance to worshippers of 
other Gods too. This has been made out in my mails to Sri BAlaji's 
queries recently)

But on impartial analysis of the sookhthis without adherence to any 
one sect's ideology, this writer had written some mails on 'free-will 
and pre-determination'in the Bhakthi-list about a couple of years ago.
The inference that was arrived at was that there is absolutely no 
freedom or swathanthiryam to the jiva.If needed I will forward those 
mails from my file.

Regards,
jayasree saranathan.

--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, vedantham chary 
wrote:
> 
> Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan
> 
> It gives adiyen immence satisfaction to learn so much from learned 
bhagavathas mails..only regret being not able to contribute any 
thing due to inherent ignorance in DIVYAPRABHANDAMS.Adiyen is telugu 
speaking and hence a handicap even in understanding language let 
alone subtleness of the subject.However bhagavathas mails uplifted 
adiyen so much and instilled confidence for which adiyen is ever 
greatful.There are certain fundamentals which adiyen needs to 
understand..Humanbeings are supposed strive for eliciting PERUMALS' 
kripa is what generally religions preach.Is this not swathanthryam as 
opposed to Sheshatwam and parathanthryam and hence may be preaching 
not correct.Otherwise.how these seemingly contradictory concepts are 
this message have been removed]




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