[percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previous Discussions and Readings
Mike Frentz
mfrentz at bbn.com
Thu Dec 5 11:52:46 EST 2002
Karey,
I largely agree with your thoughts. But I have to say your commentary
also struck me a bit curiously (it struck me almost as representative of
an observer of a world rather than a participant in the world..). One
of the obvious byproducts seemingly symptomatic of our end of the
twentieth century perspective is the notion of "political correctness"
-- that is our (now pervasive) habit as a society of only saying what is
considered socially acceptable rather than what is true, in order to
avoid being rude. Consider the difference between the statements:
"I believe there are universal truths" vs. "There are universal truths"
What is the purpose of the first statement, other than to indicate that
I believe that there is a truth however I don't believe it strongly
enough that you should also believe it?
There are universal spiritual truths, but they never were (and will
never be) entirely agreed upon. There will always be the
unenlightened.. This really isn't new relative to anywhere or anytime
that I am aware of.
I think what is new (from an American perspective, at least) is that the
Judeo-Christian principles upon which American society (and Western
Civilization, for that matter) were built are no longer being
predominantly held in our society as being valid to the point that *all*
members of that society must either acknowledge them to be true or to
risk incurring the societal view that the philosophy they subscribe to
is inferior. Case in point: this whole 10 Commandments controversy in
Alabama -- this would have been considered frivolous fifty years ago.
One of the key factors of the twentieth century to my thinking (borrowed
from Percy) is that it destroyed the heretofore assumed/purported
innocence of post-Enlightenment thinking. Having more people murdered
during the twentieth century than the number that cumulatively existed
throughout the history of the world, and in the vast majority of cases,
by initially "well-meaning" philosophies that nevertheless displaced God
by man as the supreme being (Blackmun, Stalin, Hitler..) Without God, a
society will not stay "good" (yet our American educational system denies
His very existence to the point where children cannot acknowledge that
fact without fear of retribution by authorities). That is the true
"gift" (the German meaning is even more apt..) of the twentieth century.
All genuine religions aren't true, but all genuine religions ARE good,
and each contains some fraction of truth (but only one contains the
fullness of truth, by definition, if you acknowledge that the Truth
exists, and also believe that God isn't incredibly perverse). Luckily,
that religion teaches that your theology doesn't need to be perfect, the
important thing is that you as an individual are striving for Truth, and
given enough instruction, mentoring, searching (and lifetime), you will
eventually find that Truth. It is there. And that is what we will be
judged on (i.e. having Christ in your heart even if you've never heard
His name). That doesn't make all religions the same in terms of
equivalency, but good nonetheless, for those true of heart. Not
everyone can eat steak. Pablum is also good food for the spiritually
immature.
I agree with you, in terms of spirituality being more of a "do it
yourself" project in these times. I think this is abetted strongly by
the overt expulsion of God from publicly supported institutions; these
institutions which, in turn, strongly influence a society (the more
Godless the society, the more pervasive these institutions seem to
become, as well). It is ironic that the more information that is
available, the more lost people become. The most educated society in
the history of the world is, in many ways, the most clueless.
You might be interested in the book "Chance or Dance" by Thomas Howard
(Ignatius). Peter Kreeft describes it as the best book on the medieval
mind he has ever read. Hearkening back to your earlier comment, I don't
think the Renaissance was at all incompatible with the Middle Ages -- it
was more the Reformation with its subsequent Enlightenment that caused
God to be expelled from polite society rather than the Renaissance.
Science and religion aren't nearly as incompatible as many of us were
lead to believe (the Galileo debacle notwithstanding..)
Mike
Christianity is doubly offensive becasue it claims ... that God became
one man, He and no other. One cannot imagine any statement more
offensive to the present-day scientific set of mind. Accordingly,
Hinduism and Buddhism, which have no scientific tradition... are far
less offensive to the present-day scientic set of mind, are in fact
quite compatible." (Signposts, p. 312)
P.S. I also saw no offense in your Baptist, et al comments..
Karey L. Perkins wrote:
>Jim -- I wasn't trying to put down Southern Baptists, or those who believe
>in JC, or those who don't, or those who think they're "fairy tales" (or even
>liberal literary theorists). Sorry if it came out that way. The point
>that I was trying to make is that NONE of these stances is a given any
>more -- the person sitting next to you could just as easily believe in
>Buddha, Mohammad, Christ, or be an atheist, or something else entirely. The
>person on the other side of you believes something completely different.
>There are no universal spiritual truths that are agreed upon any more. That
>doesn't mean that there might not actually be universal spiritual truths (I
>personally happen to believe there are, as I believe did Percy) just that
>the 20th century didn't make that easy to find...it obscured such things,
>and often, denied such things. But people need this and as a result we have
>existential loneliness and alienation of our times. That's the problem with
>the century -- but also the gift of the century. If society doesn't give a
>spirituality to you, then you have to search for the truth that really is
>there.
>
>KP
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jim Wesson
>To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on
>Previous Discussions and Readings
>
>
>well, it has more to do with the way you put down
>others like your'good ole southern baptist
>students,and people who belive in JC(no less. and
>people who believe in fairy tales. it is just a
>rather mean spitited attack on people really doing you
>no harm just because they think differently than you.
>has nothing to di with literary theory,marx,atheists
>or stuff like that.
> i think Percy thought it was ok to respect others
>thoughts.he even might have been
> 'the last gentleman'
>peace,
> jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey at charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, if you do figure it out, let me know! I had
>>a literary theory
>>professor once -- young, largely liberal leftist,
>>Marxist, atheist (as is
>>often found in the academy these days) -- who
>>refused to debate Percy with
>>me, saying, "I would be hostile to your point of
>>view" (since he knew
>>Percy's stance before we even began). I was sorely
>>disappointed, as I
>>thought his thoughts would inform mine -- especially
>>since we began from
>>different premises. Either I would discover flaws
>>in my arguments, or new
>>points to consider, or change it slightly or
>>entirely, or, in the end, find
>>it confirmed and strengthened -- or all of the above
>>in some way. Anyway,
>>perhaps the important consideration here is: what
>>did Percy think about it?
>>Didn't he think that the 20th century culture (on
>>the whole) lacked
>>spirituality? Wasn't that one of his primary
>>messages?
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Jim Wesson
>>To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:04 PM
>>Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts,
>>Largely Unrelated, Based on
>>Previous Discussions and Readings
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>defines us. There are many
>>>sub-cultures that do so -- I live in Atlanta, and
>>>
>>>
>>a
>>
>>
>>>whole lot of my students
>>>are good ole South Georgia Baptists, firmly
>>>
>>>
>>viewing
>>
>>
>>>themselves with a
>>>meaning, and defining themselves and their place
>>>
>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>>purpose in the world as
>>>spiritual creatures -- saved by Jesus Christ no
>>>
>>>
>>less
>>
>>
>>>-- but this is a
>>>sub-culture and they have just traveled only
>>>
>>>
>>50-100
>>
>>
>>>miles from their
>>>hometown to sit side by side in a classroom (and
>>>
>>>
>>at
>>
>>
>>>work I suppose as well)
>>>with others -- the majority I'd say -- who think
>>>they're living a fairy
>>>tale.
>>>
>>>hi,
>>>
>>>
>> well, i am not religious but you may have this all
>>wrong and i can not even explain what i mean!
>> peace,
>> jim
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oops -- same message, but Plain Text format this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>time. I keep forgetting.
>>>
>>>
>>>>KP
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Karey L. Perkins
>>>>To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:05 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [percy-l] Re: Some Random Thoughts,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Largely Unrelated, Based
>>>on
>>>
>>>
>>>>Previous Discussions and Readings
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Aristotle thought the teenagers of his day were
>>>>
>>>>
>>>all going to pot. An
>>>essay
>>>
>>>
>>>>in Percy's Signposts says more (American) men
>>>>
>>>>
>>were
>>
>>
>>>killed in the Civil War
>>>
>>>
>>>>than WWI and WWII put together. On a physical
>>>>
>>>>
>>>level, the 20th century
>>>wasn't
>>>
>>>
>>>>any worse than other centuries... On a material
>>>>
>>>>
>>>level, our lives are
>>>
>>>
>>>>terrific (Percy would agree) and far better than
>>>>
>>>>
>>>they have been ever (at
>>>
>>>
>>>>least the Northern Hemisphere). The 9/11
>>>>
>>>>
>>tragedy
>>
>>
>>>and the wars that are
>>>
>>>
>>>>following it are tragedies of course -- but no
>>>>
>>>>
>>>worse than those that came
>>>
>>>
>>>>before and actually far less I would say.
>>>>
>>>>However, on a spiritual level, we don't know why
>>>>
>>>>
>>>we're here, or who we
>>>
>>>
>>>>are -- THIS is what's different about our
>>>>
>>>>
>>century.
>>
>>
>>>>On an ETHICAL level, however, I'd have to say
>>>>
>>>>
>>this
>>
>>
>>>century is no better or
>>>
>>>
>>>>worse than any others... We can still learn to
>>>>
>>>>
>>be
>>
>>
>>>"ethical" in this
>>>
>>>
>>>>transient, anonymous, capitalist, postmodern
>>>>
>>>>
>>>society -- ethical implies a
>>>
>>>
>>>>statement about our behavior in the physical
>>>>
>>>>
>>>world, and the laws of nature
>>>
>>>
>>>>still apply. I.E.: If you're lazy and don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>work, you won't produce and
>>>
>>>
>>>>hence you will be fired, become hungry, and
>>>>
>>>>
>>become
>>
>>
>>>motivated to work. If
>>>
>>>
>>>>you're a freeloader, people will know it, resent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>you, abandon you, and
>>>
>>>
>>>>you'll soon lose people to freeload off of. If
>>>>
>>>>
>>>you cheat and lie, you
>>>will
>>>
>>>
>>>>(eventually) be found out. Enron and WorldCom.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Being unethical just
>>>
>>>
>>>>doesn't work -- in the long run -- and the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>structure of the universe will
>>>
>>>
>>>>ensure that we learn our lessons and act
>>>>
>>>>
>>ethically
>>
>>
>>>to succeed, or not
>>>learn
>>>
>>>
>>>>our lessons and fail. "What doesn't work will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>eventually fail." There
>>>are
>>>
>>>
>>>>exceptions, of course, but generally our world
>>>>
>>>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>>THE world -- works that
>>>
>>>
>>>>way.
>>>>
>>>>However, ethics is different from spirituality
>>>>
>>>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>>though the two are
>>>related
>>>
>>>
>>>>more often than not. Spirituality implies a
>>>>
>>>>
>>sense
>>
>>
>>>of meaning and purpose
>>>
>>>
>>>>behind our actions. Spirituality implies
>>>>
>>>>
>>>something that is transcendent
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>the physical world. Spirituality implies, esp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>for Percy, something
>>>
>>>
>>>>human -- different from the animals -- and
>>>>
>>>>
>>entails
>>
>>
>>>such concepts and
>>>
>>>
>>>>experiences of "joy" and "alienation" and a
>>>>
>>>>
>>"soul"
>>
>>
>>>and a "dark night" and
>>>
>>>
>>>>"pattern" and "purpose."
>>>>
>>>>In other words, I can act ethically for the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>physical rewards/benefits of
>>>
>>>
>>>>that and have no spiritual purpose behind it at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>all (though spirituality
>>>
>>>
>>>>usually entails ethical actions). You referred
>>>>
>>>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>the "Thanatos
>>>
>>>
>>>>Syndrome" -- in it you have the characters
>>>>
>>>>
>>>cavorting about engaging in all
>>>
>>>
>>>>sorts of meaningless sexual acts -- it's not
>>>>
>>>>
>>that
>>
>>
>>>that's unethical that is
>>>
>>>
>>>>the problem with this -- but that it shows the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>absence of spirituality --
>>>
>>>
>>>>there's no meaning or purpose behind what should
>>>>
>>>>
>>>be a spiritual act. In
>>>TS,
>>>
>>>
>>>>the water is tampered with to make a happy
>>>>
>>>>
>>society
>>
>>
>>>on a physical plane,
>>>but
>>>
>>>
>>>>there's no purpose to the happiness, no
>>>>
>>>>
>>>transcendent meaning related to
>>>
>>>
>>>>that. (In this way, to me, Thanatos Syndrome is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>very closely related to
>>>
>>>
>>>>Huxley's Brave New World -- in events and in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>theme.)
>>>
>>>
>>>>Huston Smith (best known for his "World
>>>>
>>>>
>>Religions"
>>
>>
>>>work) has a great
>>>little
>>>
>>>
>>>>book, a pretty quick read, called "Beyond the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Post-Modern Mind" (1989?
>>>
>>>
>>>>though that might not be the first edition). In
>>>>
>>>>
>>>it he says the middle
>>>ages
>>>
>>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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