From hpmills3 at telocity.com Wed Mar 6 20:41:18 2002 From: hpmills3 at telocity.com (Henry P. Mills) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:41:18 -0600 Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: Percy-L, A Project visitor, Daniel Partner, is curious to know if anyone can identify the source and accuracy of this quote: "Christianity is so on target because at the heart of it is the acknowledgment that man has a problem; that man is in deep, deep trouble." Sure sounds like Percy. Partner's email is , but post to the whole list if you have any clues. Henry Mills ____________________________ Henry P. Mills, Director and Editor The Walker Percy Project http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From brian at beachcitygas.com Wed Mar 6 21:14:08 2002 From: brian at beachcitygas.com (Brian Neuschwander) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:14:08 -0800 Subject: source of quote? References: Message-ID: <3C86CCF0.80A6C0A@beachcitygas.com> Perhaps Tolstoy, in The Kingdom of God is Within You"? Maybe there are some Tolstoy experts that can help out. Just my 2 cent speculation, FWIW. Brian From JHForest at cs.com Thu Mar 7 07:19:41 2002 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:19:41 EST Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: <6a.1c41627c.29b8b4dd@cs.com> The Walker Percy List isn't dead after all. That's good news. >> "Christianity is so on target because at the heart of it is the acknowledgment that man has a problem; that man is in deep, deep trouble." << It sounds far more like Percy than Tolstoy. Tolstoy, busy warring with the Russian Orthodox Church, saw himself as a Christian prophet, but had a pretty low opinion of Christianity as such unless it was willing to be remade along Tolstoyan lines. I doubt he would have enjoyed Walker Percy's company. By the way, I have a book just out called "Confession: Doorway to Forgiveness." One of the chapters has a long quote from Percy's "Thanatos Syndrome." The chapter is web posted at: www.incommunion.org/conf.htm . Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: Nancy's e-mail: tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Thu Mar 7 08:30:40 2002 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:30:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: source of quote? In-Reply-To: <6a.1c41627c.29b8b4dd@cs.com> Message-ID: Glad to see some life on this all-too-quiet listserv. Anyway, I agree with Jim. It sounds like Percy; it also sounds like something M. Muggeridge could have said. Though I could be wrong, it doesn't sound Tolstoyan at all. For Tolstoy (whom Paul Johnson called "God's older brother"), man is not in deep, deep trouble as long as Leo is there to provide the Way, the Truth, and the Light. I'll look it up when I get home. Maybe it is in one of the Conversation books. David On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 JHForest at cs.com wrote: > The Walker Percy List isn't dead after all. That's good news. > > >> "Christianity is so on target because at the heart of it is the > acknowledgment that man has a problem; that man is in deep, > deep trouble." << > > It sounds far more like Percy than Tolstoy. Tolstoy, busy warring > with the Russian Orthodox Church, saw himself as a Christian > prophet, but had a pretty low opinion of Christianity as such unless > it was willing to be remade along Tolstoyan lines. I doubt he would > have enjoyed Walker Percy's company. > > By the way, I have a book just out called "Confession: Doorway to > Forgiveness." One of the chapters has a long quote from Percy's > "Thanatos Syndrome." The chapter is web posted at: > > www.incommunion.org/conf.htm . > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm > * * * > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > David Beck "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority." - E. B. White From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Mar 7 08:51:40 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:51:40 EST Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: <138.a82ccfd.29b8ca6c@aol.com> Dear Henry, The repetition of the word deep leads me to believe it ain't Walker, although the sentiments seem to be his. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PARLINS at culver.org Thu Mar 7 09:06:38 2002 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:06:38 -0500 Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE330093@EXCHANGESERVER> I agree. This does sound Percy-esque. If it is, it will likely be found in one of the Conversations anthologies because Percy was far too careful in his intentional writing to use expressions like "so on target". It's most likely a direct quote from an interview. Where did you find the quote? Steve Parlin PS. I subscribed to this list awhile ago, and I was beginning to wonder if it had been discontinued. Glad to see a spark. -----Original Message----- From: David Alan Beck [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:31 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Cc: JHForest at cs.com Subject: [percy-l] re: source of quote? Glad to see some life on this all-too-quiet listserv. Anyway, I agree with Jim. It sounds like Percy; it also sounds like something M. Muggeridge could have said. Though I could be wrong, it doesn't sound Tolstoyan at all. For Tolstoy (whom Paul Johnson called "God's older brother"), man is not in deep, deep trouble as long as Leo is there to provide the Way, the Truth, and the Light. I'll look it up when I get home. Maybe it is in one of the Conversation books. David On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 JHForest at cs.com wrote: > The Walker Percy List isn't dead after all. That's good news. > > >> "Christianity is so on target because at the heart of it is the > acknowledgment that man has a problem; that man is in deep, > deep trouble." << > > It sounds far more like Percy than Tolstoy. Tolstoy, busy warring > with the Russian Orthodox Church, saw himself as a Christian > prophet, but had a pretty low opinion of Christianity as such unless > it was willing to be remade along Tolstoyan lines. I doubt he would > have enjoyed Walker Percy's company. > > By the way, I have a book just out called "Confession: Doorway to > Forgiveness." One of the chapters has a long quote from Percy's > "Thanatos Syndrome." The chapter is web posted at: > > www.incommunion.org/conf.htm . > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm > * * * > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > David Beck "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority." - E. B. White -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From evopsych at hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 10:14:36 2002 From: evopsych at hotmail.com (Joseph Cimino) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:14:36 -0500 Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seanwinkel at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 11:48:33 2002 From: seanwinkel at yahoo.com (Sean Winkel) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: source of quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020307164833.57709.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Carl Jung? ===== ^^^^^ > < v \@/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Fri Mar 8 15:02:40 2002 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:02:40 -0600 Subject: Unpublished Percy essay now published Message-ID: <3C8918E2.64E84D3D@ttacs.ttu.edu> Dear List: I was able to get published a previously unpublished essay by Percy on Peirce and Semiotic - it is in the Winter issue of DOUBLETAKE magazine (Robert Coles's quarterly). They also have a website at doubletakemagazine. I hope everyone enjoys a little more of Walker's unique voice. -- Kenneth L Ketner Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org Sat Mar 9 15:24:45 2002 From: wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:24:45 -0600 Subject: Unpublished Percy essay now published In-Reply-To: <3C8918E2.64E84D3D@ttacs.ttu.edu> Message-ID: Ken, That's good news. I checked DoubleTake at http://www.doubletakemagazine.org but the site still lists its current issue as Fall, 2001. It seems they publish on the web some of their essays and photography pieces, but not all. I guess it remains to be seen where this essay will be available on the web. I wonder if could you share more of the origins of the essay, etc., or its main thrust. On a related note, I did find online at DoubleTake the earlier unpublished interview of WP that appeared in DT Issue 19, Winter, 2000. It is available at: http://www.doubletakemagazine.org/int/html/percy/index.php Henry Mills ____________________________ Henry P. Mills, Director and Editor The Walker Percy Project http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From: Kenneth Ketner > Organization: Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:02:40 -0600 > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: [percy-l] Unpublished Percy essay now published > > Dear List: > I was able to get published a previously unpublished essay by Percy on > Peirce and Semiotic - it is in the Winter issue of DOUBLETAKE magazine > (Robert Coles's quarterly). They also have a website at > doubletakemagazine. I hope everyone enjoys a little more of Walker's > unique voice. > -- > Kenneth L Ketner > Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism > Texas Tech University > Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 > 806 742 3128 > Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu > Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com > Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net > Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Sat Mar 9 18:01:25 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:01:25 -0600 Subject: source of quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4039 bytes Desc: not available URL: From PARLINS at culver.org Mon Mar 11 11:40:36 2002 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:40:36 -0500 Subject: Percy and Sentimentality Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE3300A6@EXCHANGESERVER> Hey folks, Last night, after watching the 9-11 special broadcast, I got into a discussion with a friend about the danger of sentimentalizing history. I got in over my head I think because, unlike Percy, I wasn't able to clearly articulate the distinction between sentimentality and sincere observance. I have an intuitive sense of what Percy means when he says in Lost in the Cosmos that we humans are, among other things, "sentimenal and violent, or rather sentimental therefore violent", but I can't quite flesh this idea out in clear terms. Does anyone want to take a whack at this? Steve From piat1 at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 11 08:27:53 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:27:53 -0500 Subject: Percy and Sentimentality References: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE3300A6@EXCHANGESERVER> Message-ID: <00d601c1c900$8c9a9b10$9865fea9@D68RS511> Dear Steve, We've kicked this very passage about more than once --and profitably I think. I've always been a bit on the odd side of the argument --imagine accusing Percy of the very sentimentality he is railing against. But reading your comments now --in the context of 911 --cautioning ourselves against these impulses in this context --in this moment, I find myself comforted by your post and the memories of earlier comments to the same effect made by others. And so --I think you've expressed the caution and the observance well. Sentiment without sentimentality. Righteousness is an act not a sentiment. And somehow the act is supposed to comfort others not primarily oneself. But I like the way you've put it. And the proof (as far as I'm concerned) that you got it right is that although you are questioning yourself --you are comforting me. --and so I'm reminded also, not to be so damn satisfied with myself. And with you also I look to hear other comments from other voices oh yeah I recall some of our earlier discussion included reference to Flannery O'Connor --not one to suffer fools or the self righteous gladly. But of course poking the pretense out of others balloons is (as I think you so rightly point out) something best left to those with a deft hand, a light touch and a clear sense of their own complicity -- and , oh of course a sense of humor like Percy and O'Connor. But all of this is mostly to say hi, thanks and hope others will comment. Best wishes, Jim Piat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parlin, Steven" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: [percy-l] Percy and Sentimentality > Hey folks, > > Last night, after watching the 9-11 special broadcast, I got into a > discussion with a friend about the danger of sentimentalizing history. I got > in over my head I think because, unlike Percy, I wasn't able to clearly > articulate the distinction between sentimentality and sincere observance. I > have an intuitive sense of what Percy means when he says in Lost in the > Cosmos that we humans are, among other things, "sentimenal and violent, or > rather sentimental therefore violent", but I can't quite flesh this idea out > in clear terms. Does anyone want to take a whack at this? > > Steve > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Tue Mar 12 02:23:00 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:23:00 -0600 Subject: Osama bin Laden, Sentimentalist? Message-ID: The danger with sentimentality is that, like compassion, it's easily twisted into a fetish for satisfying the needs of the ego; it becomes a vehicle of transcendence. Its bent to an ideological need instead of an emotional one. Take the simple expression, "the good ole days." When viewed with rose-colored lenses, the observer often sees "the good ole days" as better than they really were. There's a bittersweet sense of loss - but since this is secular time, is this really true? What about the bittersweet sense of gain? Since when do we look back on racist murders in the South or Nazi death camps with sentimentality? We don't. We recognize that we've made clear progress and we're living in "better" times - although futurism sometimes falls into this trap as well. We come to worship at the alter of technical progress. We'll never have another major financial scandal now that the internet can disseminate so much information so quickly. Yeah, right. And the quality of news can only go up too, never down. Nazis thought they had compassion for the inferior Jews, Roma, Communists and homosexuals. By putting these imperfections out of their misery, Hitler thought he was ultimately doing them a kind favor. Compassion, though, means to suffer *with*. They seem to have gotten it turned around somewhere along the way. For this reason, Percy and O'Conner came to see compassion as something of a dirty word. I simply think it's been misused. Same with sentimentality. At the far extreme with sentimentality, we have religious zealots like Osama bin Laden, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson - you name it. These individuals look back on a perfect past until they construct their own utopia. Whether it's some imagined golden age of America or Islam, it's all the same really. It's irrational. It's paranoid. It's ego-centric and usually hitched to charismatic cult leaders. They imagine a perfect past and since forgiveness means admitting the past wasn't perfect, they have to forgo the ability to forgive. It's the imperative driving their nature. Examine closely those statements by Falwell about how New York City brought the 9/11 attacks on itself due to it's contempt for God's Will (although maybe the Will they had in mind was really George?). Have you ever heard any bin Laden speechs admitting to the possibility of forgiveness? After listing the wrongs America has done him, does he then detail what he wants for an apology? Of course not. He wouldn't remain totally committed to his absolutist goals then. He'd lose his charismatic following. It's the Robespierre problem. In this, Bin Laden is the most modern of the lot. If you think Naziism is in the past, you need to read Friedman's piece in the _New York Times_ back on the 6th - "The Core of Muslim Rage." He starts by wondering why Muslims were upset over the death of a few Palestinians last week but said hardly a word about the hundreds murdered in Indian riots. Dead is dead, isn't it? Not if there's ideology involved. Some people become more equal than others when it comes to proving a point. There's a clue here, Percy might say. Friedman finds it. And to compare people in this manner isn't to say that grieving victims are the same as intolerant folk like bin Laden. After all, due to the attack, I now share the same anger that motivated Al Queda. It just doesn't motivate me to go out and kill innocent civilians, though. I eat like they do and breath air too - but you'll never see reactionaries dwelling on these commonalities either, as I am here. You often seen sentimentality turn into iconography. What was once a vehicle for rememberance and reunion - a eucharist wafer, perhaps, or the sanctity of the US constitution or Mecca itself - becomes a means to destructive sentimentality. What was once just a thing is no longer just a thing. It's now a symbol of utopia and it recalls a past world that's somehow good or better - even though there's no such thing. When it comes to sin, there's no binging and purging to keep you thin. You can't regurgitate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Now certainly people who wear crosses affixed to their necks aren't going to bomb skyscrapers. The fact that these are common symbols often confuses the matter. But the next time you see someone on the far left ranting about the moral dangers of flag burning - or someone on the far left actually burning a flag - sentimentality has come into play. Call it historical idealism, utopianism or whatever you want. It's an extreme, but then the only differences among us are the degrees to which we sin, not that we sin. What was once a loss for us in the past is an opportunity for someone else. Which of us is really in a position to know? Sometimes amnesia's not such a bad thing, you know. I heartily commend it to those living in the middle east. From kfwils at earthlink.net Tue Mar 12 19:51:07 2002 From: kfwils at earthlink.net (Kenneth Wilson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:51:07 -0500 Subject: Osama bin Laden, Sentimentalist? References: Message-ID: <00a101c1ca29$2afedc20$92d4bfa8@u8f5h7> Wade Riddick wrote: > At the far extreme with sentimentality, we have religious zealots like > Osama bin Laden, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson - you name it. These > individuals look back on a perfect past until they construct their own > utopia. Whether it's some imagined golden age of America or Islam, it's > all the same really. It's irrational. It's paranoid. It's ego-centric > and usually hitched to charismatic cult leaders. > > They imagine a perfect past and since forgiveness means admitting the past > wasn't perfect, they have to forgo the ability to forgive. It's the > imperative driving their nature. Examine closely those statements by > Falwell about how New York City brought the 9/11 attacks on itself due to > it's contempt for God's Will (although maybe the Will they had in mind was > really George?). Have you ever heard any bin Laden speechs admitting to > the possibility of forgiveness? After listing the wrongs America has done > him, does he then detail what he wants for an apology? Of course not. He > wouldn't remain totally committed to his absolutist goals then. He'd lose > his charismatic following. It's the Robespierre problem. In this, Bin > Laden is the most modern of the lot. bin Laden wants something much greater than an apology. He wants change. He wants us to become a Muslim state. In this he's at least consistent, because apologies are meaningless if no attempt is made the remove the offense. And for all their presumption, Fallwell and Co. (whose statements examined closely, were about America as a whole), often speak of forgiveness. I do appreciate your thoughts on sentimentality, Ken From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Mar 14 12:17:25 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:17:25 EST Subject: Percy and Sentimentality Message-ID: <32.23ac70df.29c23525@aol.com> The key to the sentimentality-violence connection is probably best summed up in the Father Smith confession at the last third of Thanatos. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Mon Mar 18 15:42:41 2002 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:42:41 -0600 Subject: Unpublished Percy essay now published References: Message-ID: <3C96513B.16408CBD@ttacs.ttu.edu> Henry: Maybe, if you want to webify the WP essay in DOUBLETAKE, the mag editors would allow you to do so. Might be worth asking them. Not too much to tell. I suddenly realized that the essay wasn't a fragment, but would become a whole by an addition of the last three words. Did same, and Coles liked the idea, and Mrs. Percy also. She got the whole royalty. I got the fun of doing the editing and introducing. I think it is an important essay because it shows indisputably how strongly Peirce was influencing Walker in the fifties. "Henry P. Mills" wrote: > > Ken, > > That's good news. I checked DoubleTake at http://www.doubletakemagazine.org > but the site still lists its current issue as Fall, 2001. It seems they > publish on the web some of their essays and photography pieces, but not all. > I guess it remains to be seen where this essay will be available on the web. > I wonder if could you share more of the origins of the essay, etc., or its > main thrust. > > On a related note, I did find online at DoubleTake the earlier unpublished > interview of WP that appeared in DT Issue 19, Winter, 2000. It is available > at: http://www.doubletakemagazine.org/int/html/percy/index.php > > Henry Mills > > ____________________________ > Henry P. Mills, Director and Editor > The Walker Percy Project > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > From: Kenneth Ketner > > Organization: Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism > > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:02:40 -0600 > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Subject: [percy-l] Unpublished Percy essay now published > > > > Dear List: > > I was able to get published a previously unpublished essay by Percy on > > Peirce and Semiotic - it is in the Winter issue of DOUBLETAKE magazine > > (Robert Coles's quarterly). They also have a website at > > doubletakemagazine. I hope everyone enjoys a little more of Walker's > > unique voice. > > -- > > Kenneth L Ketner > > Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism > > Texas Tech University > > Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 > > 806 742 3128 > > Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu > > Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com > > Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net > > Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . -- Kenneth L Ketner Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU Mon Mar 18 16:16:16 2002 From: rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU (rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:16:16 -0500 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone could elucidate the terms "transcendence" and "immanence." I'm writing an undergaduate Honor's thesis on Percy and one of my chapters is on Lost in the Cosmos. I know that these two terms are used by Catholics to describe our two-fold relationship with God. How does this relate to Percy's use of them in Lost in the Cosmos? Percy's use of them seems slightly denigrating. If anyone knows of any articles that deal with this, I would love to know what they are. From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 19 07:16:22 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 07:16:22 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: Try the following book: Rudnicki, Robert W. Percyscapes: The Fugue State in Twentieth Century Southern Fiction. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1999. You'll have some difficulty finding good articles on Percy's non-fiction (perhaps people aren't sure what to make of it, as it resists certain paradigms). Good Luck Rhonda McDonnell _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From karey at charter.net Tue Mar 19 08:48:48 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey Perkins) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:48:48 -0500 Subject: transcendence and immanence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The transcendent God is the intangible, abstract God -- the God that is without us; the immanent God is within us, manifested in the physical world. I think one of Percy's points is that separately they're not good, they must be integrated. Like in Love in the Ruins, when his lapsometer reads angelism-bestialism. I think there's a parallel there. He has that theme throughout all his works; as early as the Moviegoer he compares "the romantic" stranger he meets on the bus with the salesman he meets on the same bus -- I think he's dealing with this issue/theme throughout his works. My question is: how does his concept of the "romantic" relate to his concept "angelism" relate to his concept of "transcendence"? Are they equivalent and interchangeable terms or do they shift in meaning? Another question I've been wanting to ask: What is a "moviegoer"? Is that the same thing as a "romantic"? Also, btw, I found the term "Schaddenfreud" twice in "The Last Gentleman," though the concept is throughout his works. I'm reading Lancelot now, and the hurricane is coming! Karey ====================== Karey Perkins Faculty Forum Manager Professor of General Education DeVry University 2555 Northwinds Parkway Alpharetta, Georgia 30004 kperkins at faculty.atl.devry.edu 770-521-4900 Ext. 3527 karey at charter.net 770-649-1460 http://www.atl.devry.edu/kperkins -----Original Message----- From: rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU [mailto:rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 4:16 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: transcendence and immanence I was wondering if anyone could elucidate the terms "transcendence" and "immanence." I'm writing an undergaduate Honor's thesis on Percy and one of my chapters is on Lost in the Cosmos. I know that these two terms are used by Catholics to describe our two-fold relationship with God. How does this relate to Percy's use of them in Lost in the Cosmos? Percy's use of them seems slightly denigrating. If anyone knows of any articles that deal with this, I would love to know what they are. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From SrCoyote at aol.com Tue Mar 19 10:39:21 2002 From: SrCoyote at aol.com (SrCoyote at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:39:21 EST Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: <5b.24c06702.29c8b5a9@aol.com> Oh, shoot. While we're at it, I have a couple of questions myself. I was tempted to answer the original question of transcendence vs. immanence, but I can't help but feel that I am not quite grasping Percy's ideas on the subject. In lost in the Cosmos, he spends a chapter or two on means of re-entry from the transcendant to the immanent. Made perfect sense to me at the time, but since I've read it, I've read The Thanatos Syndrome, some Jung, and some Ken Wilber, and it then seemed to me that Percy was mired in a separation of self in which he was trying to marry the angelism and bestialism into one whole being which I thought was ground already covered by others (such as Jung). So now my questions: 1. He briefly mentions Eudora Welty as a person who's immanent self had expanded to encompass her transcendant self. He stated that she could finish writing a transcendant novel and then go make small talk at the local post office without any problem of re-entry. Isn't that the answer he was looking for? 2. Is it possible that the whole thing gumming up his search was his orthodox Catholic view of Christ which made it necessary for an external salvation by Christ rather than an internal salvation by Self and subsequent loss of self(in the Buddhist sense)? Please do not mistake my question as being Anti-Catholic (or Anti-Christian). And I realize that I may have taken the discussion beyond Percy, but I guess I am more interested in the Percy-ian view of these questions. He was obviously reaching beyond an either/or dualism of angelism vs. bestialism, but I'm unsure of where he was headed. Thanks. David Dreith From piat1 at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 19 03:43:17 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:43:17 -0500 Subject: transcendence and immanence References: <5b.24c06702.29c8b5a9@aol.com> Message-ID: <005301c1cf22$1dd8cdf0$953efea9@D68RS511> > 1. He briefly mentions Eudora Welty as a person who's immanent self had expanded to encompass her transcendant self. He stated that she could finish writing a transcendant novel and then go make small talk at the local post office without any problem of re-entry. Isn't that the answer he was looking for? > Dear David, This rings a bell with me. That does seem to be part of the answer he was seeking --and seeking to find satisfaction in that answer. I wonder does any one know what if any influence Dewey had upon him --or what he thought of Dewey's attempts to resolve dualisms. Best From piat1 at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 19 03:58:40 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:58:40 -0500 Subject: transcendence and immanence References: Message-ID: <008701c1cf24$43958810$953efea9@D68RS511> Dear David, Yes, this all rings true with me as well --I must be in an especially harmonious mood -lol > I agree with Karey. She wrote: > > without us; the immanent God is within us, manifested in the physical > world.I think one of Percy's points is that separately they're not good, they > must be integrated.> > > From a Christian perspectve, of course, the integration is found in the > Incarnation--of God becoming man. > > David . From rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU Tue Mar 19 12:22:45 2002 From: rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU (rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:22:45 -0500 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: Thanks folks. This will help me out some. I just finished a first draft of the thesis and will wrap it up by late April. Here's another thing that I'd like some help on. Do Lacan's theory of language and the Peirce-Percy theory have much in common? I've read some things about Lacan's theory, but am too strapped for time, and probably too dumb, to go and read a bunch of Lacan. What I have read, though, seems to be similar to the semiotic theory in Lost in the Cosmos. Help...please. From seanwinkel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 17:04:41 2002 From: seanwinkel at yahoo.com (Sean Winkel) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s Message-ID: <20020319220441.33820.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> HI- A young friend of mine just finished "the Moviegoer," and has gotten the bug. She want to read more Percy, and would like some advice as to what to read next. I'm soliciting suggestions. Thanks, Sean Winkel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From dabeck at iupui.edu Tue Mar 19 17:37:26 2002 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:37:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s In-Reply-To: <20020319220441.33820.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, The Last Gentlman might be a good one (although the similarities--child dying, etc., might make her think that we was a singer of one song, which, of course, is far from the truth). The students in my Intro to Fiction class enjoy Lancelot more than The Moviegoer (not enough sex and violence probably). But it seems to have a certain appeal to young people, But I guess it depends on how young your friend is and if she is offended by some of the language. But if she is like my students (19 or 20), they seem to be a pretty jaded bunch; not much shocks or disturbs them. They grew up on MTV. For what it's worth, David Beck "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority." - E. B. White From seanwinkel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 18:38:19 2002 From: seanwinkel at yahoo.com (Sean Winkel) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:38:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020319233819.56903.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Well, first thought best thought (as the zenmaster said): Last Gentleman was my thought as well. Though I hadn't considered Lancelot, oddly enough. A fine suggestion. She's a precocious 18 (I think). Thanks very much for your help! Sean Winkel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From gulfgal at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 20:53:17 2002 From: gulfgal at earthlink.net (Sunni Kay Zuniga) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:53:17 -0500 Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s Message-ID: <004601c1cfb2$026b4f80$d267d63f@t1o4e0> Yes, yes, yes - I too would recommend Lancelot as the next Percy foray! - it's a grand introduction to Percy's humor and often more palatable for many than Love in the Ruins although, depending on your friend, I'd definitely recommend this too. What a delight I remember in reading both of these - and I read both prior to The Moviegoer. -Sunni Zuniga -----Original Message----- From: David Alan Beck To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Date: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:37 PM Subject: [percy-l] Re: Percy reader needs rec.'s >Sean, >The Last Gentlman might be a good one (although the similarities--child >dying, etc., might make her think that we was a singer of one song, which, >of course, is far from the truth). The students in my Intro to Fiction >class enjoy Lancelot more than The Moviegoer (not enough sex and violence >probably). But it seems to have a certain appeal to young people, But I >guess it depends on how young your friend is and if she is offended by >some of the language. But if she is like my students (19 or 20), they seem >to be a pretty jaded bunch; not much shocks or disturbs them. They grew up >on MTV. > >For what it's worth, > >David Beck > >"I would feel more optimistic about a bright >future for man if he spent less time proving that >he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness >and respecting her seniority." > - E. B. White > > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at . >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From Hghwy6 at aol.com Tue Mar 19 21:32:25 2002 From: Hghwy6 at aol.com (Hghwy6 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:32:25 EST Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s Message-ID: <12a.e1764d6.29c94eb9@aol.com> Glad to see this list is vibrant again. By way of introduction, I am a 24 year old student who was introduced to Percy in a secondary teachers' workshop. That session dealt mainly with semiotics, but it gave me the bug to pick up a book I had been given a couple of years before in a Southern Lit. class. The first novel I read was also The Moviegoer, followed by Lancelot. Though I appreciated the dark humor and intrigue in Lancelot; I would recommend Last Gentleman to your friend, especially considering the age. Both books deal seriously with questions of death, but I think the latter balances the love and hope stuff in a way that might be more palatable to a younger reader. Not that I mistrust the judgment of your friend or any other reader, just an opinion in hindsight. I consider myself fairly jaded, but after a spell of reading all the novels back to back, the dark content, particularly the fixation with suicide, began to get to me a little more than I would have anticipated. John Biundo From nelson at newulmtel.net Tue Mar 19 21:59:26 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:59:26 -0600 Subject: Percy reader needs rec.'s References: <12a.e1764d6.29c94eb9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c1cfbb$3ff465e0$b20011ac@default> It's relieving to have another younger students type person on this list. I'm 23 and, because of medical problems, am an on and off student. I mainly lurk but I have learned quite a bit from all of the distinguished professors and intellectuals that reside Walker Percy section of the cyber landscape. I figure if a Abraham Lincoln can educated himself all the way to the presidency I can do the same (except the presidency part and the beard). Ryan Nelson PostScript: I'm a writer though I'm not consciously influenced by our main man. Consciously. Though irrelevant to discussion here I love music mainly the Minneapolis band The Replacements and jazz. > Glad to see this list is vibrant again. By way of introduction, I am a 24 > year old student who was introduced to Percy in a secondary teachers' > workshop. That session dealt mainly with semiotics, but it gave me the bug > to pick up a book I had been given a couple of years before in a Southern > Lit. class. > The first novel I read was also The Moviegoer, followed by Lancelot. > Though I appreciated the dark humor and intrigue in Lancelot; I would > recommend Last Gentleman to your friend, especially considering the age. > Both books deal seriously with questions of death, but I think the latter > balances the love and hope stuff in a way that might be more palatable to a > younger reader. Not that I mistrust the judgment of your friend or any other > reader, just an opinion in hindsight. I consider myself fairly jaded, but > after a spell of reading all the novels back to back, the dark content, > particularly the fixation with suicide, began to get to me a little more than > I would have anticipated. > > John Biundo > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 22 00:30:12 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:30:12 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: What happened with semiotics was the bastardization of Peirce's semeiotic, something Dr. Ketner can explain much more eloquently than I can. But, if I have it right, the problem with semiotics, if you come at it from a Peirce perspective, is that thirdness or triadic communication is dropped out of the formula. Of course for Peirce and Percy, thirdness is what it's all about, hence the conflict rather than congruence. Rhonda McDonnell >From: rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Subject: [percy-l] Re: transcendence and immanence >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:22:45 -0500 > > >Thanks folks. This will help me out some. I just finished a first draft of >the thesis and will wrap it up by late April. Here's another thing that I'd >like some help on. Do Lacan's theory of language and the Peirce-Percy >theory have much in common? I've read some things about Lacan's theory, but >am too strapped for time, and probably too dumb, to go and read a bunch of >Lacan. What I have read, though, seems to be similar to the semiotic theory >in Lost in the Cosmos. Help...please. > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Nikkibar at aol.com Fri Mar 22 13:36:09 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:36:09 EST Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: <173.57d3de1.29ccd399@aol.com> Dear Rhonda, Just where did WP say that about heads and asses? it escaped me somehow. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Fri Mar 22 13:51:54 2002 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:51:54 -0600 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: <3c9b7d4a.1680da.0@loyno.edu> Ditto. I recall WP sometimes laughing at the excesses of semioticians (and I attended at least one SSA conference with him), but he went to a summer program at UToronto (in the early 90's?) and was working on a book on semiotics up to his death. Marcus Smith > >Dear Rhonda, > >Just where did WP say that about heads and asses? it escaped me somehow. > >Nikki > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at . >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 02:43:59 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:43:59 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: In an unpublished letter he wrote to Gentry Harris. >From: Nikkibar at aol.com >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Subject: [percy-l] Re: transcendence and immanence >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:36:09 EST > >Dear Rhonda, > >Just where did WP say that about heads and asses? it escaped me somehow. > >Nikki > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 02:47:52 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:47:52 Subject: transcendence and immanence Message-ID: Given some of his correspondence with Harris, I think he most likely was working on a book on semiotic (Peirce style) rather than semiotics. The comment came rather late in the correspondence, well after the Toronto trip, I think. If you're interested, I'll go through my notes and see if I can't locate a date. >From: "Marcus Smith" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Subject: [percy-l] Re: transcendence and immanence >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:51:54 -0600 > >Ditto. I recall WP sometimes laughing at the excesses of semioticians (and >I >attended at least one SSA conference with him), but he went to a summer >program >at UToronto (in the early 90's?) and was working on a book on semiotics up >to >his death. > >Marcus Smith > > > > > >Dear Rhonda, > > > >Just where did WP say that about heads and asses? it escaped me somehow. > > > >Nikki > > > > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx