From Nikkibar at aol.com Wed May 1 10:42:34 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:42:34 EDT Subject: Percy's Favorite Books Message-ID: <46.26ca1b5a.2a0158da@aol.com> There has been no bibliography done of his favorite books to my knowledge. It would make an interesting project. I do have a list of his record and music collection however. One of his favorite books was Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller Jr. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at beachcitygas.com Wed May 1 10:54:09 2002 From: brian at beachcitygas.com (Brian Neuschwander) Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:54:09 -0700 Subject: The satisfying enterprise References: Message-ID: <3CD00191.A4CC152@beachcitygas.com> David Alan Beck wrote: > > Some of this talk about conciousness and will.... so > how could there be doubt?... > > Some mysteries just won't be > solved on this side of reality."... > > After all, isn't our very > existence, in many ways, a mystery. (As Marcel calls it--another shameless > plug for Marcel--the Mystery of Being.) > . > Sorry if this sounds like an intellectual cop-out. Who knows? Maybe it is. > > David Beck > > "I would feel more optimistic about a bright > future for man if he spent less time proving that > he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness > and respecting her seniority." > - E. B. White > David, Your perspective isn't laziness with age, but confidence from life. After much contemplating of such "odd" things as the resurrection, virgin birth, ascension, etc, I finally set all the difficulties aside until I could resolve the matter of my own existence (without arid scientistic reductionism). Perhaps that is impossible "this side of reality." The pursuit of meaning without the tools of mystery leads to impenetrable pedantry (like the pop postmodern philosophical gibberish), or the half-right response of Alan Sokal in his "Fashionable Nonsense", which is a reserved reductionism, a sort of laying the cards face down on the table but daring not to turn them all over because they keep coming up blank, so you have to leave a few face down in the desperate hope that at least some of them do actually say something. Accepting mystery is a much more satisfying enterprise than playing solitaire with a blank deck. All the best, Brian From Nikkibar at aol.com Wed May 1 10:58:04 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:58:04 EDT Subject: Conscious Will Message-ID: <110.118b3c46.2a015c7c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/02 8:26:38 PM Central Daylight Time, piat1 at bellsouth.net writes: > > > Dear Ken Armstrong, > > Thanks for the comments. You wrote: > > >> Quite a feat, Jim, to declare consciousness the strongest drive of all > (I'm not sure, though, where the drives are kept) and then declaring > yourself ignorant of what consciousness is. > > OK I withdraw the comment about consciousness being a drive. But seriously > I still not sure what it is. How would you define it? What do you think > is its function? Do you think it can occur in the absense of the ability > to symbolize? > > > >> And THEN of all the *$(@#$*%$ things, devolving to consciousness being > no different from stimulus/response! > > Well I didn't mean to imply that was a done deal --only that I could not > explain to my own satisfaction how consciousness differed from "mere" > responding other than qualitatively. > > >> Well, heck, man, no wonder you don't understand how consciousness would > be necessary for free choice to occur! > > But Ken, I'm all ears. Seriously, this is a subject of great interest to > me and I would enjoy any explantions or suggestions you might have. I'm > not being flip. It does seem to me that consciousness plays some sort of > role in choice. But when I get down to trying to specify how or why > conciousness would be necessary --or even what exactly I mean by free > choice I never seem to get very far. > > >> All I can say, with some expectation of being understood, is that Percy > would indeed have been willing to deflate (much better than I, obviously) > the idea that will is illusion. I notice no one took me up on my question > of how that book came into being. Stimulus/response d'yer suppoze? > > >>Well, I suppose that the author might argue something along those lines. > But supposing the author said the book came about as a result of many > discussions. Does this mean that free will was necessarily involved, that > the process was fully conscious or that consciousness was necessary for the > book to have been produced. Granted I think it is unlikely that the author > would argue that consciousness did not even accompany the process by which > the book developed but as you know correlation does not necessarily imply > cause. (Moreover there is some experimental evidence that consciousness > occurs after one makes a choice --not concurrently or before.) > > Cheers, > Jim Piat > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at < > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>. > The problem of consciousness existing in the absence of the power to symbolize was one that intrigued WP and the book group generally. My side favored the notion that animal consciousness definitely existed and was a reality for those organisms who did not symbolize. It has always been my hunch that animals communicate without symbols and are not quite the windowless monads that McDonalds would have us believe. Walker felt otherwise. The argument tended to crystalize around the Chomsky notion that animals, particularly the higher primates do in fact have the power to symbolize. Walker detested this notion along with a good deal of the kindred collateral conception collection of Carl Sagan. There is much in both of those sacks that we simply don't know and I was always willing to say so but retain an open mind and a willingness to observe animal behaviour (including our own) but Walker tended toward a narrower view influenced by the Magesterium conception of the soul as a uniquely human cosa nostra. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Wed May 1 11:02:34 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:02:34 EDT Subject: plain text format.... Message-ID: <163.d1d4181.2a015d8a@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/02 8:42:41 PM Central Daylight Time, piat1 at bellsouth.net writes: > Dear Nikki, > > Yes, I think Percy was having some fun with his friend Ken Ketner in making > these remarks and I've no doubt that Percy understanding of Peirce went > right to the marrow of Peirce's triadic concept of representation --now if > I could only grasp one percent of what either were saying I'd be well on my > way! > > Thanks-- > Jim Piat > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at < > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>. > D'accord on the subject of understanding the 1%. But if by "having fun with Ketner" you mean to imply that WP had his tongue in his cheek or was being facetious, you've got it wrong. He was in dead earnest in his statements. Ken and I have been having a lengthy and private dialogue about the partiality of Walker's acceptance of Peirce and think we may have come up against some interesting insights, but we're (or at least I) not ready to share them just yet. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at maier.net Wed May 1 11:28:12 2002 From: mark at maier.net (mark at maier.net) Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy's Favorite Books Message-ID: <20020501082812.7256.h016.c000.wm@mail.maier.net.criticalpath.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Wed May 1 11:32:12 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:32:12 EDT Subject: A Modest Proposal Message-ID: <136.d33de12.2a01647c@aol.com> Anent the matters we've been discussing lately, I have a modest proposal to suggest. In trying to talk to others about the whole triadic-dyadic distinction, there comes an inevitable point in the conversation when ones' interloquitur says something like: BUT WHAT'S IT ALL GOOD FOR? Let me suggest that each of us try to come up with a very concrete example from the real world that illustrates for our friend just what the usefulness of all this discussion truly is. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at charter.net Wed May 1 12:31:21 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey Perkins) Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:31:21 -0400 Subject: Conscious Will Message-ID: Did anyone read this week's cover story in Time Magazine on Autism? Apparently, autism is treated by intense language and speech therapy, which alters cognitive processes, so far as I could understand. But related to the comment below, there was also a personal viewpoint of Temple Grandin, who has been diagnosed with autism since two years old, who says she can't think in terms of language as symbol. She says (p. 56, May 6 issue): "Autistics have trouble learning things that cannot be thought about in pictures," and that while intensive speech therapy helped pull her out of the autistic world, "words are like a foreign language to me," and "spatial words such as 'under' and 'over' had no meaning for me until I had a visual image to fix them in my memory. Even now, when I hear the word 'under' by itself, I automatically picture getting under the cafeteria tables in an air-raid drill..." She says earlier in the article, "Not being able to communicate in words was a great frustration," and "As a child, I was like an animal with no instincts to guide me. I was always observing, trying to work out the best ways to behave, yet I never fit in...even today, personal relationships are something I don't understand." She also says things that makes one think language is not the key to conceptualization. "Teachers who work with autistic children need to understand associative thought patterns. But visual thinking is more than just associations. Concepts can also be formed visually. When I was little, I had to figure out that small dogs were not cats. After looking at both large and small dogs I realized that they all had the same nose." She also says she identifies with how animals think and see the world, because of her handicap with language. She is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University who redesigned feedlots as a result. "Because I think in pictures, I assume animals do too. I can imagine the sensations the animals feel. Today half the cattle in the U.S. are handled in equipment I have designed." Anyway, the whole article was interesting in light of this Percy/Pierce discussion. I don't think language gives consciousness or makes you "human" but it does something. (Whatever that is!) Woodhouse's monism had a scale of consciousness (think Renaissance Great Chain of Being)...ie: humans have "more" consciousness than animals, animals have more than plants, and plants have more than rocks, and so on. ============= The problem of consciousness existing in the absence of the power to symbolize was one that intrigued WP and the book group generally. My side favored the notion that animal consciousness definitely existed and was a reality for those organisms who did not symbolize. It has always been my hunch that animals communicate without symbols and are not quite the windowless monads that McDonalds would have us believe. Walker felt otherwise. The argument tended to crystalize around the Chomsky notion that animals, particularly the higher primates do in fact have the power to symbolize. Walker detested this notion along with a good deal of the kindred collateral conception collection of Carl Sagan. There is much in both of those sacks that we simply don't know and I was always willing to say so but retain an open mind and a willingness to observe animal behaviour (including our own) but Walker tended toward a narrower view influenced by the Magesterium conception of the soul as a uniquely human cosa nostra. Nikki -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org Thu May 2 18:17:25 2002 From: wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 16:17:25 -0600 Subject: Moviegoer Point of View Message-ID: Percy-L: Anyone have a response for Jack? Henry Mills _____________________ From: "Jack Nease" Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:30:05 -0400 To: Subject: Walker Percy's The Moviegoer or The Movie-Goer Hi I'm looking for an excerpt from Walker Percy's The Moviegoer (sometimes listed as The Movie-Goer to determine it it is written in the first person present or first percent past. I've spent several hours searching the web and cannot find one. Can you help? Thanks Jack Nease From mfrentz at bbn.com Fri May 3 14:10:47 2002 From: mfrentz at bbn.com (Mike Frentz) Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 14:10:47 -0400 Subject: Introduction & Question re Percy reference in Signposts Message-ID: <3CD2D2A7.94ECCC2B@bbn.com> Greetings! I just joined the group so, in keeping with the suggestions, here's a brief introduction. I'm a physicist/electrical engineer who discovered Percy through the Catholic Authors show on EWTN. My work in the last few years has been focused on more computer science driven areas, e.g. information security, which has led me down a much more philosophical path than I would have guessed. In order to protect information, it would certainly be nice to be able to define what information is. A Shannon-based information theory has nothing to do with the kind of information, biologists and anthropologists (e.g Bateson) talks about. Been interested in biosemiotics, and quantum information (my company is doing a little bit in quantum cryptography). The link to extraordinary physicists (e.g. Bohm, Wheeler, Deutsch) and theoretical biologists (e.g. Kauffman) is very intriguing. Also have been reading a lot of theology works (Aquinas, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, Peter Kreeft, Frank Sheed). It was quite a surprise to find Percy's semiotics nugget buried in Lost in the Cosmos. Which has led me to studying Peirce (and now even drifting towards Duns Scotus and Ockham). Having been a geek all my life, I now have a whole new respect for classical liberal studies (inspired mainly by Chesterton). I am trying to make up for that deficit in my education. I do have a question for the group. In the Epilogue of Signposts (p. 394 of the Picador edition), Percy in 1987 talks of his plan to "write a short work on semiotics, showing how the current discipline has been screwed up by followers of Charles Peirce and Saussure" (by this he was referring to "errant apostles" of Peirce). My question is, does anyone in the group know if the work he refers to was ever written? If the work wasn't written, could someone give me some pointers to contemporary semioticians whose work he does respect? (Langer and Cassirer are on my list). I've been through Cosmos, Message in a Bottle, and Signposts -- I'm hoping there's some more recent (e.g. post 1975) pointers from Percy on worthwhile semiotics research that I haven't yet discovered.. Best regards, Mike Frentz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfrentz.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 276 bytes Desc: Card for Mike Frentz URL: From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Fri May 3 14:19:12 2002 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 13:19:12 -0500 Subject: Percy on Peirce's Semeiotic Message-ID: <3CD2D4A0.C5C65ABA@ttacs.ttu.edu> Mike, might have a look at Winter 2002 issue of DOUBLETAKE magazine (can order from their website doubletakemagazine, or local newstand), has a recently discovered early ms on Peirce by Percy heretofore unpublished. WP may have planned to expand this essay. See also office website below for some relevant stuff re Percy and Gentry Harris. -- Kenneth L Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From piat1 at bellsouth.net Fri May 3 17:34:26 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:34:26 -0400 Subject: A Modest Proposal References: <136.d33de12.2a01647c@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c1f2ea$4d007830$953efea9@D68RS511> Dear Nikki, Folks-- Ah, that's a good suggestion I've been struggling with for a few days now. I think I've got a playful one that at least I kinda like --- Newton's laws of motion --things in motion tend to stay in motion --for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Those refer to dyadic relations. Actions and re-actions. On the other hand learning --such as S-R operant conditions described by Skinner or classical conditioning describe by Pavlov --those are triadic relations involving three indispensable and conjoined elements --a stimulus, a response and a consequence Some folks seem to have a knee jerk aversion to scientific psychology so I think this is a good example of where the Peirce-Percy triadic-dyadic distinction makes a difference. Or maybe not -- I doubt that folks are going to agree with me on that one --but, yes or no, I think you've asked a good pragmatic question Nikki and one I'm still thinking about and looking forward to other's responses. Well here's another try folks might find more canonical -- the difference between dyadic and triadic relations is the difference between mere events and meaningful events. All mere "reactions" (regardless of the number of elements involved) can be reduced to a series of if/then sequences. But the "meaning" or significance of events is an irreducible triadic relation that can only be expressed in terms of three analogously joined elements. The word "book'" means the object book to someone. There is no direct if/then relation between the word and the object which it stands for. There must be an interpretant of this relationship which stand in the same relationship to the object as does the word. Still one may ask --so what? Here I would say the so what is, for instance, that any attempt to philosophically build a meaningful universe out of Newtonian mechanics alone is not going to be successful. Meaning (purpose or cognizance) lies outside the laws of physics. Of course to many folks (let's call them religious folks) this has always been obvious but to some, such as me, this has not been the case. So I have expanded my notion of the physical sciences to include meaning as something essential for the conduct of physics but external to subject matter. I think I'll call psychology the science of meaningful systems --the meaningful investigation of systems in which meaning is an integral aspect of the system itself. Nikki --have you written up your remembrances of Percy? How about you Marcus Smith? Times at the Waffle House, BS-ing about books and movie's. These accounts would be much appreciated by fans of Percy. Anyway --best to all. Jim Piat Anent the matters we've been discussing lately, I have a modest proposal to suggest. In trying to talk to others about the whole triadic-dyadic distinction, there comes an inevitable point in the conversation when ones' interloquitur says something like: BUT WHAT'S IT ALL GOOD FOR? Let me suggest that each of us try to come up with a very concrete example from the real world that illustrates for our friend just what the usefulness of all this discussion truly is. Nikki -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piat1 at bellsouth.net Sat May 4 06:38:46 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 06:38:46 -0400 Subject: A Modest Proposal References: <136.d33de12.2a01647c@aol.com> Message-ID: <005f01c1f357$de9f2300$953efea9@D68RS511> Dear Folks, OK --another modest maybe.. Maybe prozac or any other psychotropic medication can never by itself be a cure for man's problems in living because ultimately such problems are problems of meaning and significance and no amount of chemically altered feelings or sensation can by themselves achieve meaning. The plane of meaning can never be achieved by brute force alone. As the Greeks taught it is not what happens to us but the view we take of it Whadaya think --any other suggestions? Best, Jim Piat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Sat May 4 16:00:51 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 20:00:51 +0000 Subject: A Modest Proposal Message-ID: >From: "James Piat" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Newton's laws of motion --things in motion tend to stay in motion --for >every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Those refer to >dyadic relations. Actions and re-actions. On the other hand learning >--such as S-R operant conditions described by Skinner or classical >conditioning describe by Pavlov --those are triadic relations involving >three indispensable and conjoined elements --a stimulus, a response and a >consequence Hmmm, Jim, I don't know that I agree. My understanding of S-R tells me that it's dyadic. It isn't much different from your description of Newton's laws of motion in that sense. Nikki himself gave us the first piece of the triadic relationship: "Let me suggest that each of us try to come up with a very concrete example from the real world that illustrates for our friend just what the usefulness of all this discussion truly is." When we think about what a triadic relationship IS and how it might be represented through language, and then we actually attempt to render it into language that might be understood by the rest of the list, so that we all nod and say, "yes, that's what it is" then we are doing our part in the relationship. In MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE "The Symbolic Structure of Interpersonal Process" Percy writes, "The very act of symbolic formulation, whether it be language, logic, art, or even thinking, is of its very nature a formulation for a someone else." While your response seems like it may be in accord with Peirce's thinking, I'm not sure we can answer Nikki's question concerning what the point of it all is without applying Percy. What we're engaged in on this list is the point of it--making meaning out of this world. We can't do that without triadic interaction, and I still don't get the point unless, as Percy says, we're doing it with and for others. Which brings me back to the S-R business--in what way is that triadic communication? Cheers, Rhonda _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Sat May 4 16:06:07 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 20:06:07 +0000 Subject: A Modest Proposal Message-ID: Although I'm not one to disregard the possibility of chemical imbalances which are real physical causes for ailments of the psyche, I also agree with your take on it. Modern society is too bent on easy fixes when, in truth, part of the human condition is anxiety. This all reminds me of SECOND COMING--Will Barrett lost his anxiety when he was medicated, forgot about the Jews disappearing, etc. but he didn't really feel better until he addressed the spiritual cause of his ailment. >From: "James Piat" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Subject: [percy-l] Re: A Modest Proposal >Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 06:38:46 -0400 > >Dear Folks, > >OK --another modest maybe.. > >Maybe prozac or any other psychotropic medication can never by itself be a >cure for man's problems in living because ultimately such problems are >problems of meaning and significance and no amount of chemically altered >feelings or sensation can by themselves achieve meaning. The plane of >meaning can never be achieved by brute force alone. As the Greeks taught >it is not what happens to us but the view we take of it > >Whadaya think --any other suggestions? > >Best, >Jim Piat > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From piat1 at bellsouth.net Sat May 4 10:14:28 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:14:28 -0400 Subject: A Modest Proposal References: Message-ID: <000901c1f376$00ffd020$953efea9@D68RS511> Dear Rhonda, Thanks for your comments. Your wrote: > Hmmm, Jim, I don't know that I agree. My understanding of S-R tells me that > it's dyadic. It isn't much different from your description of Newton's laws > of motion in that sense. Perhaps you are right, but it seems to me S-R operant conditioning and classical Pavlovian conditioning both involve three elements that are joined triadically in the same way as a symbol is triadically joined with both the object to which it refers and to the interpretor of that symbol. In the case of the symbol-object-intepreter we have a symbol that stands for an object to an interpreter. In the case of Pavlovian conditioning we have a conditioned stimulus (say a bell) that stands for an unconditioned stimulus (say a piece of meet) to an interpreter (say a hungry dog). Or, in the case of S-R conditioning we have a stimulus (say a bell) that stands for a reward to an intrepter (say a lever pusher). I don't see how this learning paradigm can be reduced to a series of dyadic chains of relations since it is crucial that the three events are joined for the learning to occur and none of the elements (stimulus, response or reinforcement) is simply the result of only one of the other elements occuring. > Nikki himself gave us the first piece of the > triadic relationship: "Let me suggest that each of us try to come up with a > very concrete example from the real world that illustrates for our friend > just what the usefulness of all this discussion truly is." When we think > about what a triadic relationship IS and how it might be represented through > language, and then we actually attempt to render it into language that might > be understood by the rest of the list, so that we all nod and say, "yes, > that's what it is" then we are doing our part in the relationship. Oh I agree very much with this. I'm thrilled with Nikki's question and I agree too that the mere asking of it in some ways points to its own answer. I'm trying to be part of that relationship you speak of. > In > MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE "The Symbolic Structure of Interpersonal Process" > Percy writes, "The very act of symbolic formulation, whether it be language, > logic, art, or even thinking, is of its very nature a formulation for a > someone else." OK, but does that mean that when one is thinking to herself or privately learning something new she is not engaged in symbolic formulation? I think that would be too narrow of an interpretation. I think one can communicate both with nature (a great teacher) as well as with other folks. I think we live in a meaningful universe and that all learning is meaningful and symbolic. > While your response seems like it may be in accord with Peirce's thinking, I don't know whether it is or not, but I was not deliberately trying to draw a distinction between Peirce and Percy. Just taking a shot at Nikki's challenge. > I'm not sure we can answer Nikki's question concerning what the point of it > all is without applying Percy. What we're engaged in on this list is the > point of it--making meaning out of this world. We can't do that without > triadic interaction, and I still don't get the point unless, as Percy says, > we're doing it with and for others. Well, I agree --and I would include mother nature or God formost among the others I'm trying to communicate with. > Which brings me back to the S-R > business--in what way is that triadic communication? I hope I've at least suggested how so called S-R conditioning or learning in general might be a triadic form of natural communication. The way nature communicates with us when we learn from experience. Frankly Rhonda I realize I may very well be all wet as regards my interpretation of S-R learning as being triadic. In fact I believe that somewhere Percy himself may have used Skinnerian behaviorism as an example of a dyadic interpretation of human behavior. Part of my motivation is raising this alternative possibility is because I think some folks have an almost knee jerk negative reaction to scientifc psychology as though it were somehow contrary to the dignity of man, an affront to theism or unable to address the issue of meaning. Personally, and as a psychologist, I disagree with each of these views. But I'm neither a Percy or a Peirce scholar and I'm mostly just tossing these ideas out there in response to Nikki's invitation in hopes of joining with you and others in meaningful communication. So --most of all thanks for the comments and good to hear from you. Of course I recognize that you may well be correct and that I am not only mistaken but being defensive to boot. I usually am! Hopefully your kind remarks have brought out the better impulses in me --you certainly make me smile. > Cheers, > Rhonda And Cheers to you! Jim Piat From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Sat May 4 18:39:20 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 22:39:20 +0000 Subject: A Modest Proposal Message-ID: Hi Jim You wrote: >Perhaps you are right, but it seems to me S-R operant conditioning and >classical Pavlovian conditioning both involve three elements that are >joined >triadically in the same way as a symbol is triadically joined with both the >object to which it refers and to the interpretor of that symbol. In the >case >of the symbol-object-intepreter we have a symbol that stands for an object >to an interpreter. In the case of Pavlovian conditioning we have a >conditioned stimulus (say a bell) that stands for an unconditioned stimulus >(say a piece of meet) to an interpreter (say a hungry dog). Or, in the >case >of S-R conditioning we have a stimulus (say a bell) that stands for a >reward >to an intrepter (say a lever pusher). I don't see how this learning >paradigm can be reduced to a series of dyadic chains of relations since it >is crucial that the three events are joined for the learning to occur and >none of the elements (stimulus, response or reinforcement) is simply the >result of only one of the other elements occuring. > This answer of yours to my query concerning S-R solidifies my identification of you as being potentially in the Peirce camp regarding triadic behavior. Peirce used communication between man and dog as an example of triadic communication. Percy didn't seem to agree with this, seeming to limit such communication to that between people or between humans and God. ALso, if I remember my brief education in S-R theory, part of the point is that the behavior, the dog's salivating for example, occurs even when the transaction is stripped of its meaning--no food to be found. If it does, it's successful--the dog responds to the stimulus, not to the food. But it has no meaning for the dog if the food isn't present. That may be why Percy refers to it as a chain of dyads. The complete transaction doesn't have genuine symbolic meaning. >OK, but does that mean that when one is thinking to herself or privately >learning something new she is not engaged in symbolic formulation? Formulation, yes, but until you communicate it through representation, is it triadic? In other words, at least for Percy, my understanding of triadic behavior is that it is, by its nature, concerned with representing what's been formulated through the symbolic structure of language. Also, how much of our through is entirely independent? I only have my own inner workings to draw from, so I'm a bit limited, but much of my thought, if not all of it, builds upon and reacts to others. For example, I may observe some sort of interesting animal behavior while watching my neighbor's dog's antics. I may reformulate some of my thought of S-R, but that reformulation will in part depend on our conversation here. I may even send you a message to communicate my new thoughts, but whether I do that or not, those thoughts are part of the triadic experience we are having. >I think one can communicate >both with nature (a great teacher) as well as with other folks. I think we >live in a meaningful universe and that all learning is meaningful and >symbolic. > I'll agree with that, but I'm not sure it's triadic unless you engage in communication. At least, that's what Percy seems to say, but I'm not sure that Peirce would agree. I need to read more of Peirce. > >I don't know whether it is or not, but I was not deliberately trying to >draw >a distinction between Peirce and Percy. > I confess that I was. I don't think Percy's entirely agreed with Peirce on this issue, just as he didn't entirely agree with Kierkegaard concerning the religious stage. Maybe that's part of why Percy called himself a thief, although Nikki and Dr. Ketner surely have a clearer idea of all this than I do. >I'm mostly just tossing these ideas out there in response to >Nikki's invitation in hopes of joining with you and others in meaningful >communication. Likewise! >Of course I recognize that you may well be correct and that I am >not only mistaken but being defensive to boot. I usually am! Since I have no formal training in psychology, I'm very well may not be correct, but thanks anyway. For the most part, I'm just trying out some ideas, and think that others are doing the same. You didn't come across as defensive. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Rhonda _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From piat1 at bellsouth.net Sat May 4 14:57:13 2002 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:57:13 -0400 Subject: A Modest Proposal References: Message-ID: <002301c1f39d$80aa8b40$953efea9@D68RS511> Hi Rhonda, You wrote: " This answer of yours to my query concerning S-R solidifies my identification of you as being potentially in the Peirce camp regarding triadic behavior. Peirce used communication between man and dog as an example of triadic communication. Percy didn't seem to agree with this, seeming to limit such communication to that between people or between humans and God". So for Percy one of the "so what's" of the triadic vs dyadic distinction is that this is where the line is drawn between the meaningful universe of man and God (or that God provides man) and the meaningless world of brutes, vegetables and minerals (or whose meaning is known but to God)? I think you are right that Peirce did not draw the distinction quite this way (well, of course, Percy didn't draw it quite "this" way either but you know what I mean -ha!). Somewhere I recall Peirce uses the example of quartz (I think it was quartz) that poloarizes light as an example of a true triad drawn from the so called physical world. " ALso, if I remember my brief education in S-R theory, part of the point is that the behavior, the dog's salivating for example, occurs even when the transaction is stripped of its meaning--no food to be found. If it does, it's successful--the dog responds to the stimulus, not to the food. But it has no meaning for the dog if the food isn't present. That may be why Percy refers to it as a chain of dyads. The complete transaction doesn't have genuine symbolic meaning". Well, I would argue that is precisely because the dog does respond to the stimulus bell in the absense of food that make the bell a meaningful stimulus. But of course you are right that if the bell is repeatedly rung in the absense of food it will over time loose its symbolic ignificance --just as words fall out of usage and indeed whole languages become dead and in some cases presumedly lost forever. Earlier I said: OK, but does that mean that when one is thinking to herself or privately learning something new she is not engaged in symbolic formulation? To which you responded: " Formulation, yes, but until you communicate it through representation, is it triadic? In other words, at least for Percy, my understanding of triadic behavior is that it is, by its nature, concerned with representing what's been formulated through the symbolic structure of language". I think I am in agreement with you here. I was trying to argue that even learning from nature or through trial and error was a form of symbolic communication. " Also, how much of our through is entirely independent? I only have my own inner workings to draw from, so I'm a bit limited, but much of my thought, if not all of it, builds upon and reacts to others. For example, I may observe some sort of interesting animal behavior while watching my neighbor's dog's antics. I may reformulate some of my thought of S-R, but that reformulation will in part depend on our conversation here. I may even send you a message to communicate my new thoughts, but whether I do that or not, those thoughts are part of the triadic experience we are having". Yes, I agree with you here whether my ideas on S-R as triadic hold water or not. I don't believe that thought or representation being a from of communication is incompatible with S-R learning being triadic. But if the two are indeed incompatible than so much the worse for my view that S-R is triadic as far as I'm concerned. Earlier I said: I think one can communicate both with nature (a great teacher) as well as with other folks. I think we live in a meaningful universe and that all learning is meaningful and symbolic. To which you responded: " I'll agree with that, but I'm not sure it's triadic unless you engage in communication. At least, that's what Percy seems to say, but I'm not sure that Peirce would agree. I need to read more of Peirce". I don't know exactly where either Percy or Peirce would come down on this issue but you and I do seem to diverge a bit on this point. I think that God literally does speak to us through nature and learning in general --I take it you reserve the notion of symbolic communication more narrowly or strickly to what is commonly called verbal language. Earlier I said: . . . I was not deliberately trying to draw a distinction between Peirce and Percy. To which you responded: " I confess that I was. I don't think Percy's entirely agreed with Peirce on this issue, just as he didn't entirely agree with >Kierkegaard concerning the religious stage. Maybe that's part of why Percy called himself a thief, although Nikki and Dr. Ketner surely have a clearer idea of all this than I do". Well I think you are right that Percy was selective in terms of his acceptance of Peirce's philosophy. When I said in an earlier post that Percy was perhaps being facetious (I guess partially facetious would have been better) what I had in mind was that he was half kidding about the stealing part (elsewhere I think he does claim to have made a similar independent discovery of the triadic nature of meaning ) but maybe joking less (or not) about the one percent part. Actually, Rhonda, much of what Percy writes strikes me as a bit wry, ironic or tongue in cheek. There is just something about his tone that strikes me as mischievious --as though he is watching the reader out of the corner of his eye --deliberately goading and teasing the reader a bit --in a way I personally find very funny and delightful. But I too defer to Nikki and Ken Ketner on this. As I said, I started out here to give a go at Nikki's challenge and I think I've gone a bit afield and lost my way. Actually I don't have strong convictions regarding any of these issues (although I find them endlessly fascinating) and I hope I'm not coming across and tediously argumentative. Fact is I fully agree with at least half of what you say and at least half agree with all of it. I've enjoyed our discussion and will shut up now for a bit and let others get a word in! Cheers, Jim Piat From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Sat May 4 23:21:11 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:21:11 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <20020501082812.7256.h016.c000.wm@mail.maier.net.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: My father tells me about twenty years ago, he remembers that a pair of lawyers representing the Catholic Church in an Abbeville sexual abuse suit made an interesting statement to the press. Dad thinks the case was the first of its kind which started the ball rolling into today's crisis. The two lawyers encouraged the church to adopt a more aggressive policy towards molesters and predicted that if it didn't then it would mushroom into a billion dollar problem. Today that estimate looks unrealistically low. My father and I think once the Catholic Church actually starts selling its properties, this could have a globally depressing effect on real estate prices. (Yeah, I know. You guys think I'm nuts. After all, the suggestion that people who work in skyscrapers ought to buy parachutes is nutty... except that's exactly what they ran out and did after 9/11.) I'm curious as to what light Percy's friends might shed on his role in any internal church debates at the time, given that it happened in our backyard. I'm also curious about the reaction of Catholics on this list to the way the church scandal has recently blossomed. While it's true that molesters gravitate to any profession that involves children, there appear to be a unique combination of infelicitous circumstances which have come together in the Catholic hierarchy. 1) The hierarchy looks unresponsive on the scale of the 24 hour news cycle. I'll skip remarks I've made before on the modern media machine. Appearing unfriendly is the only capital sin. (For a list of other sins, you can visit www.mediawhoresonline.com). 2) While school administrators often transfer suspected molesters with glowing recommendations just to get rid of them, schools are mostly locally controlled and there isn't a global hierarchy that links them together. Schools act this way precisely because they're not closely linked together. In the case of the Catholic church, the tendency to bury the problem coupled with a global and quite rigid chain of command has got people understandably wondering if there's some sort of conspiracy at work in the church. 3) The Catholic Church in particular has a recruitment crisis of epidemic proportions. Parishioners are right to ask if celibacy requirements are unnecessarily narrowing the pool of candidates for the priesthood - although wrong to suggest "straight" family men are less capable of molestation. Recruitment problems pressure administrators to retain even suspect priests on staff. I remember a graph in Canada showing that most nuns were older than 50 and only one nun was in her twenties (I don't think she was native, either). By muddying the issue with homosexuality and claiming that priests are really happy with celibacy (conveniently leaving out of all statistical surveys those men AND WOMEN who wanted to be priests but never applied) this adds to the view that the Catholic Church is deliberately avoiding the real issue by trying to apply a layer of Norman Rockwell paint to the problem. It's not my church. It's not my flavor of the faith and I really have no particular dog in this fight. I suppose I see churches everywhere being adversely affected by falling membership, so I don't expect answers to these particular problems in the Catholic Church to shed light on this. I wish I knew what button to press to turn it around. I also wish I knew what causes child molestation. I suspect it's partly chemical/genetic, partly moral choice and partly bad upbringing (e.g., prior abuse). Because of the stigma, it doesn't look like we're going to apply much money understanding and preventing it. Maybe if it was covered by HMOs... People like to think that pills can't cure your problems. They can sure as hell help. If you never get the opportunity to make a moral choice, how can you? There's pretty good scientific evidence indicating that everything from the increase in our sugar intake to the decline in Omega-3 oils in our diet has indeed been affecting our cognition. This is something I can speak about from personal experience. How much it affects others out there is anybody's guess. I have no doubt that molesters have committed a horrendous crime of terrible proportions and deserve isolation from society in a prison cell. Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we knew in advance who the alcoholics were before we started setting up the drinks? I applaud this current Pope for his rapprochement with Jews and for tackling a number of other tough issues in the Catholic past. The church's current approach on molestation, however, is abysmal. Finally, could we please turn off the HTML? Parsing the code by hand hurts my eyes and since it's a security hole I'm never going to turn it on in my email reader. Wade Riddick From sldye at bluegrass.org Tue May 7 14:46:55 2002 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:46:55 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? References: Message-ID: <004001c1f5f7$9054fa60$e512a8c0@sldye> My own feeling about percy's reaction to the scandal is that, even though he was a great "realist" and "stoic", I think he would have been absolutely appalled at the scandal, the scope of it - and its effect on the Church. I also think he would have "counseled" - poor choice of words, maybe - GRACE and forgiveness....of course along with making priests accountable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Riddick" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:21 PM Subject: [percy-l] Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? > My father tells me about twenty years ago, he remembers that a pair of > lawyers representing the Catholic Church in an Abbeville sexual abuse suit > made an interesting statement to the press. Dad thinks the case was the > first of its kind which started the ball rolling into today's crisis. The > two lawyers encouraged the church to adopt a more aggressive policy towards > molesters and predicted that if it didn't then it would mushroom into a > billion dollar problem. > > Today that estimate looks unrealistically low. My father and I think once > the Catholic Church actually starts selling its properties, this could have > a globally depressing effect on real estate prices. (Yeah, I know. You > guys think I'm nuts. After all, the suggestion that people who work in > skyscrapers ought to buy parachutes is nutty... except that's exactly what > they ran out and did after 9/11.) > > I'm curious as to what light Percy's friends might shed on his role in any > internal church debates at the time, given that it happened in our backyard. > > I'm also curious about the reaction of Catholics on this list to the way > the church scandal has recently blossomed. While it's true that molesters > gravitate to any profession that involves children, there appear to be a > unique combination of infelicitous circumstances which have come together > in the Catholic hierarchy. > > 1) The hierarchy looks unresponsive on the scale of the 24 hour news > cycle. I'll skip remarks I've made before on the modern media machine. > Appearing unfriendly is the only capital sin. (For a list of other sins, > you can visit www.mediawhoresonline.com). > > 2) While school administrators often transfer suspected molesters with > glowing recommendations just to get rid of them, schools are mostly locally > controlled and there isn't a global hierarchy that links them together. > Schools act this way precisely because they're not closely linked together. > In the case of the Catholic church, the tendency to bury the problem > coupled with a global and quite rigid chain of command has got people > understandably wondering if there's some sort of conspiracy at work in the > church. > > 3) The Catholic Church in particular has a recruitment crisis of epidemic > proportions. Parishioners are right to ask if celibacy requirements are > unnecessarily narrowing the pool of candidates for the priesthood - > although wrong to suggest "straight" family men are less capable of > molestation. Recruitment problems pressure administrators to retain even > suspect priests on staff. I remember a graph in Canada showing that most > nuns were older than 50 and only one nun was in her twenties (I don't think > she was native, either). By muddying the issue with homosexuality and > claiming that priests are really happy with celibacy (conveniently leaving > out of all statistical surveys those men AND WOMEN who wanted to be priests > but never applied) this adds to the view that the Catholic Church is > deliberately avoiding the real issue by trying to apply a layer of Norman > Rockwell paint to the problem. > > It's not my church. It's not my flavor of the faith and I really have no > particular dog in this fight. I suppose I see churches everywhere being > adversely affected by falling membership, so I don't expect answers to > these particular problems in the Catholic Church to shed light on this. I > wish I knew what button to press to turn it around. > > I also wish I knew what causes child molestation. I suspect it's partly > chemical/genetic, partly moral choice and partly bad upbringing (e.g., > prior abuse). Because of the stigma, it doesn't look like we're going to > apply much money understanding and preventing it. Maybe if it was covered > by HMOs... > > People like to think that pills can't cure your problems. They can sure as > hell help. If you never get the opportunity to make a moral choice, how > can you? There's pretty good scientific evidence indicating that > everything from the increase in our sugar intake to the decline in Omega-3 > oils in our diet has indeed been affecting our cognition. This is > something I can speak about from personal experience. How much it affects > others out there is anybody's guess. > > I have no doubt that molesters have committed a horrendous crime of > terrible proportions and deserve isolation from society in a prison cell. > Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we knew in advance who the alcoholics were > before we started setting up the drinks? > > I applaud this current Pope for his rapprochement with Jews and for > tackling a number of other tough issues in the Catholic past. The church's > current approach on molestation, however, is abysmal. > > Finally, could we please turn off the HTML? Parsing the code by hand hurts > my eyes and since it's a security hole I'm never going to turn it on in my > email reader. > > Wade Riddick > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From evopsych at hotmail.com Tue May 7 15:56:35 2002 From: evopsych at hotmail.com (Joseph Cimino) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 15:56:35 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfrentz at bbn.com Tue May 7 17:42:06 2002 From: mfrentz at bbn.com (Mike Frentz) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 17:42:06 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations byCatholic priests? References: Message-ID: <3CD84A2E.63A5B856@bbn.com> Joseph, I think it is difficult to understand what is going on based on the quality of reporting in the mainstream media (EWTN is a good source for the "other" side -- which I believe to be balanced, i.e. an objective search for truth). It is definitely a severe scandal for those individuals implicated, but *not for the Church*, per se. It was not a failure of doctrine at all, but rather the failings of individuals (a very small minority of priests and the negligence of a minority of bishops) who were grossly unfaithful to the Faith. Not at all unforeseen (Luke 17:1, "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin."), but rather it is a continual recurring theme in this (the fallen) world. If you do happen think it is worse in the RCC, read G.K. Chesterton's "Everlasting Man" for starters -- it is an oft-repeated PC myth, peculiar to recent times, that the world would be at all better off without "religion". We're both spoiled and amnesiac. Of course, I can "speak for Percy" only to the extent that he would answer as an orthodox Catholic (I'm certainly not an expert on Percy, but in all that I've read he appears to be in concert with Rome -- much more so than the implicated clergy). This priestly scandal will actually be a long overdue blessing for the Church -- hopefully restoring the backbone of American bishops to once again speak out against the warping of American culture (that JP II has forcefully and consistently done) that leads to trivialization of human sexuality that, in turn, allows any semblance of what has occurred to occur. There is a beauty in Catholic teaching that you won't find anywhere else. It's not a matter of the Church being out of touch with the real world; it's a matter of the real world being out of touch with the Church. That's the beauty that Percy discovered. Truth is addicting. Paradoxically, this scandal actually bodes quite well indeed (despite the sensational press -- that part I think Percy *would* love). Best, Mike Joseph Cimino wrote: > > > > I saw an interesting op-ed in the New York Times last week which stated something to the effect that the "scandal" is > not that priests are molesting children, but that the church has only just now begun to acknowledge its existence. Has > the Pope ignored this issue for so long, or is the Church so out of touch with what goes on in the real world? > Neither choice bodes well for the establishment. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfrentz.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 276 bytes Desc: Card for Mike Frentz URL: From karey at charter.net Tue May 7 18:53:08 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey Perkins) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 18:53:08 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <004001c1f5f7$9054fa60$e512a8c0@sldye> Message-ID: As an active member of the Catholic church for years, including teaching CCD (now PSR) and involvement in social groups for young people, including those groups for people out of college which are populated by young men who are often trying to decide what to do with their lives, I cannot begin to tell you how many of these quality (and highly qualified) young men seriously considered the priesthood -- very much wanted to in some cases -- but chose not to because of the celibacy requirement. The seriousness of their consideration varied -- for some it was a passing thought, immediately dismissed because they knew they wanted to marry at some point (but the "what if" factor -- what if priests could marry -- was always present in their minds). Others spent much time, with much internal struggle and self-reflection on the issue, and this often even included going to retreats for young people interested in entering the Catholic clergy. In the end, of the hundreds of young men that I either worked with or knew from the church, only ONE made the final decision to join the priesthood. Every single one of the others who had considered it chose not to because of the celibacy factor. I read an editorial -- and I can't attest to its accuracy as I don't know and haven't researched this topic, but if it is accurate, it has very interesting implications for the Church -- that the celibacy requirement was not for any deep seated theological reasons, but that early in the last millennium, Rome gave land to priests and didn't want the church (priests' sons) to inherit. The shortage of priests is a crisis for the Catholic Church -- even before the pedophilia issue came to the forefront. And the two may likely be related. Another interesting thing is that a large proportion of priests in American parishes are Irish by birth. For whatever reason -- cultural I assume -- Ireland has been less affected by the celibacy requirement for priests, so America imports its priests from those countries that are producing them. Percy predicted this. Most evident in "Love in the Ruins," of course. To quote Percy directly from his text: "Our Catholic church has split into three pieces: (1) the American Catholic Church whose new Rome is Cicero, Illinois; (2) the Dutch schismatics who believe in relevance but not God; (3) the Roman Catholic remnant, a tiny scattered flock with no place to go." Of course, the Dutch schismatics get the worst of Percy's criticisms: "The Dutch schismatics in this area comprise several priests and nuns who left Rome to get married. They threw in with the Dutch schismatic Catholics. Now several divorced priests and nuns are importuning Dutch cardinals to allow them to remarry." Percy's criticism of the "Dutch schismatics" is what he sees as a failing in the church -- organized religion in general -- that it "waters down" its message and practice to conform to society (and all its sins), and so its (the church's) message becomes diluted and distorted and ultimately lost as a result. Catholics did it less than Protestants, but in Love in the Ruins, a science fiction novel set in the future, he sees it as eventually infiltrating the Catholic church. The question is, is Percy right? Was Vatican II an improvement or loss? And, are married priests the answer, as might be the logical conclusion given America's dearth of priests, the recent pedophilia scandals, and the editorial about lack of real theological reasons for celibacy? OR does the Catholic church's adherence to its outdated scripts and mores serve as a inscrutable beacon of truth to a lost world, such as Father Smith in the firetower (Thanatos Syndrome) or John the Savage in the lighthouse (Brave New World, Huxley)? Percy thought the latter. I'm not so sure. KP -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:47 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? My own feeling about percy's reaction to the scandal is that, even though he was a great "realist" and "stoic", I think he would have been absolutely appalled at the scandal, the scope of it - and its effect on the Church. I also think he would have "counseled" - poor choice of words, maybe - GRACE and forgiveness....of course along with making priests accountable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Riddick" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:21 PM Subject: [percy-l] Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? > My father tells me about twenty years ago, he remembers that a pair of > lawyers representing the Catholic Church in an Abbeville sexual abuse suit > made an interesting statement to the press. Dad thinks the case was the > first of its kind which started the ball rolling into today's crisis. The > two lawyers encouraged the church to adopt a more aggressive policy towards > molesters and predicted that if it didn't then it would mushroom into a > billion dollar problem. > > Today that estimate looks unrealistically low. My father and I think once > the Catholic Church actually starts selling its properties, this could have > a globally depressing effect on real estate prices. (Yeah, I know. You > guys think I'm nuts. After all, the suggestion that people who work in > skyscrapers ought to buy parachutes is nutty... except that's exactly what > they ran out and did after 9/11.) > > I'm curious as to what light Percy's friends might shed on his role in any > internal church debates at the time, given that it happened in our backyard. > > I'm also curious about the reaction of Catholics on this list to the way > the church scandal has recently blossomed. While it's true that molesters > gravitate to any profession that involves children, there appear to be a > unique combination of infelicitous circumstances which have come together > in the Catholic hierarchy. > > 1) The hierarchy looks unresponsive on the scale of the 24 hour news > cycle. I'll skip remarks I've made before on the modern media machine. > Appearing unfriendly is the only capital sin. (For a list of other sins, > you can visit www.mediawhoresonline.com). > > 2) While school administrators often transfer suspected molesters with > glowing recommendations just to get rid of them, schools are mostly locally > controlled and there isn't a global hierarchy that links them together. > Schools act this way precisely because they're not closely linked together. > In the case of the Catholic church, the tendency to bury the problem > coupled with a global and quite rigid chain of command has got people > understandably wondering if there's some sort of conspiracy at work in the > church. > > 3) The Catholic Church in particular has a recruitment crisis of epidemic > proportions. Parishioners are right to ask if celibacy requirements are > unnecessarily narrowing the pool of candidates for the priesthood - > although wrong to suggest "straight" family men are less capable of > molestation. Recruitment problems pressure administrators to retain even > suspect priests on staff. I remember a graph in Canada showing that most > nuns were older than 50 and only one nun was in her twenties (I don't think > she was native, either). By muddying the issue with homosexuality and > claiming that priests are really happy with celibacy (conveniently leaving > out of all statistical surveys those men AND WOMEN who wanted to be priests > but never applied) this adds to the view that the Catholic Church is > deliberately avoiding the real issue by trying to apply a layer of Norman > Rockwell paint to the problem. > > It's not my church. It's not my flavor of the faith and I really have no > particular dog in this fight. I suppose I see churches everywhere being > adversely affected by falling membership, so I don't expect answers to > these particular problems in the Catholic Church to shed light on this. I > wish I knew what button to press to turn it around. > > I also wish I knew what causes child molestation. I suspect it's partly > chemical/genetic, partly moral choice and partly bad upbringing (e.g., > prior abuse). Because of the stigma, it doesn't look like we're going to > apply much money understanding and preventing it. Maybe if it was covered > by HMOs... > > People like to think that pills can't cure your problems. They can sure as > hell help. If you never get the opportunity to make a moral choice, how > can you? There's pretty good scientific evidence indicating that > everything from the increase in our sugar intake to the decline in Omega-3 > oils in our diet has indeed been affecting our cognition. This is > something I can speak about from personal experience. How much it affects > others out there is anybody's guess. > > I have no doubt that molesters have committed a horrendous crime of > terrible proportions and deserve isolation from society in a prison cell. > Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we knew in advance who the alcoholics were > before we started setting up the drinks? > > I applaud this current Pope for his rapprochement with Jews and for > tackling a number of other tough issues in the Catholic past. The church's > current approach on molestation, however, is abysmal. > > Finally, could we please turn off the HTML? Parsing the code by hand hurts > my eyes and since it's a security hole I'm never going to turn it on in my > email reader. > > Wade Riddick > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From nelson at newulmtel.net Tue May 7 20:15:34 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 19:15:34 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? References: Message-ID: <00e201c1f625$7923d9a0$b20011ac@default> >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men in secular world indulge in pedophilia. Thanks! Ryan Nelson From willbonds at yahoo.com Tue May 7 23:45:33 2002 From: willbonds at yahoo.com (Richard Gay) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:45:33 -0700 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <00e201c1f625$7923d9a0$b20011ac@default> Message-ID: I'm not sure generalizations like "lots" and "many" are very helpful. -----Original Message----- From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:16 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? <<>> From nelson at newulmtel.net Tue May 7 21:02:40 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:02:40 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? References: Message-ID: <015a01c1f62c$0de09320$b20011ac@default> but I'm sure you get my point beyond the academic flubs in description. I can't or recall any specific cases but if someone thinks child abuse is relegated to happening inside the confessional they just aren't reading the newspaper or paying attention to any media. PostScript: I believe this incident was national.the parents of the young daughter awoke one morning to find her missing. After several days her body was found in the neighbors camper. she had been sexually abused. if I recall correctly by all accounts this neighbor was a normal person, at least to the neighbors. Ryan > I'm not sure generalizations like "lots" and "many" are very helpful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > << in secular world indulge in pedophilia.>>> > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From karey at charter.net Tue May 7 21:06:05 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey Perkins) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 21:06:05 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <00e201c1f625$7923d9a0$b20011ac@default> Message-ID: My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring children. KP -----Original Message----- From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men in secular world indulge in pedophilia. Thanks! Ryan Nelson -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Tue May 7 21:36:18 2002 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:36:18 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molest ations by Catholic priests? Message-ID: Is the incidence of cleric pedophilia any greater than in any average sampling of adult male population? This seems important to know but I can't recall any analysis or discussion of it. As for the church's response, it is just about the same as any and every hidebound institution's response to scandal throughout history, right up to Enron's denials and shredding machines. It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear. I think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers. As a scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent far too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar daddies than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those things of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men. I've never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it, and so I welcome any challenges. R Pauley -----Original Message----- From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring children. KP -----Original Message----- From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men in secular world indulge in pedophilia. Thanks! Ryan Nelson -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From mfrentz at bbn.com Tue May 7 21:49:17 2002 From: mfrentz at bbn.com (Mike Frentz) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 21:49:17 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations byCatholic priests? References: Message-ID: <3CD8841D.71D72EA4@bbn.com> Joseph, I think it is difficult to understand what is going on based on the quality of reporting in the mainstream media (EWTN is a good source for the "other" side -- which I believe to be balanced, i.e. an objective search for truth). It is definitely a severe scandal for those individuals implicated, but *not for the Church*, per se. It was not a failure of doctrine at all, but rather the failings of individuals (a very small minority of priests and the negligence of a minority of bishops) who were grossly unfaithful to the Faith. Not at all unforeseen (Luke 17:1, "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin."), but rather it is a continual recurring theme in this (the fallen) world. If you do happen think it is worse in the RCC, read G.K. Chesterton's "Everlasting Man" for starters -- it is an oft-repeated PC myth, peculiar to recent times, that the world would be at all better off without "religion". We're both spoiled and amnesiac. Of course, I can "speak for Percy" only to the extent that he would answer as an orthodox Catholic (I'm certainly not an expert on Percy, but in all that I've read he appears to be in concert with Rome -- much more so than the implicated clergy). This priestly scandal will actually be a long overdue blessing for the Church -- hopefully restoring the backbone of American bishops to once again speak out against the warping of American culture (that JP II has forcefully and consistently done) that leads to trivialization of human sexuality that, in turn, allows any semblance of what has occurred to occur. There is a beauty in Catholic teaching that you won't find anywhere else. It's not a matter of the Church being out of touch with the real world; it's a matter of the real world being out of touch with the Church. That's the beauty that Percy discovered. Truth is addicting. Paradoxically, this scandal actually bodes quite well indeed (despite the sensational press -- that part I think Percy *would* love). Best, Mike Joseph Cimino wrote: > > > > I saw an interesting op-ed in the New York Times last week which stated something to the effect that the "scandal" is > not that priests are molesting children, but that the church has only just now begun to acknowledge its existence. Has > the Pope ignored this issue for so long, or is the Church so out of touch with what goes on in the real world? > Neither choice bodes well for the establishment. > Joseph Cimino wrote: > > > > I saw an interesting op-ed in the New York Times last week which stated > something to the effect that the "scandal" is not that priests are molesting > children, but that the church has only just now begun to acknowledge its > existence. Has the Pope ignored this issue for so long, or is the Church so > out of touch with what goes on in the real world? Neither choice bodes well > for the establishment. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfrentz.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 276 bytes Desc: Card for Mike Frentz URL: From mfrentz at bbn.com Tue May 7 22:45:39 2002 From: mfrentz at bbn.com (Mike Frentz) Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:45:39 -0400 Subject: A comment re "pedophilia" References: Message-ID: <3CD89153.8B2E9C41@bbn.com> One more brief comment (sorry about the funny spacing in my last message, I had cut and paste the message I had written earlier that for some reason didn't post, hopefully this one is okay..). This is also not so obviously Percy-centric, but it tries to clarify a misleading comment in several recent posts. The term pedophilia has been used in most of the recent messages (and bandied in the press). Almost all of the cases were with teenagers (post pubescent) or adults, not children per se, so the term pedophilia is very misleading. FWIW, the majority of these cases were also homosexual, rather than heterosexual, a case the press seems reluctant to advertise (possibly because it dignifies the Boy Scout and Supreme Court decisions?). Many of the seminaries deviated significantly from Church teaching in the late sixties, seventies, and eighties in a post Vatican II misapplication frenzy and tolerated dissension (e.g. birth control, soft pedaling of prolife and homosexual issues) that was clearly in violation of magisterial Church teaching. I have heard from many devout priests over the last few years (and indeed, the priests that I've met who've been ordained recently appear to be much more devout than their superiors) that many (most?) of the seminaries have reformed and are true to Rome, and those that have generally also have increasing enrollments. A priest is married to the Church. The Church believes that celibacy is a gift from God (and there are actually a growing number of celibate lay Catholic ecclesiastical movements). My wife goes to a Protestant-based Bible study. The apparent number of bitter ministers' wives there appears not to be a positive solution to priestly recruiting dilemma -- I believe that faithful bishops are. Per a recent Wall Street Journal article on a very traditional parish smack dab in the middle of Silicon Valley, the pastor's motto there is "Support the Faith and the faithful will support the Church." His enrollment is busting at the seams. That's what will turn the seminarial tide.. Mike Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > Is the incidence of cleric pedophilia any greater than in any average > sampling of adult male population? This seems important to know but I can't > recall any analysis or discussion of it. As for the church's response, it is > just about the same as any and every hidebound institution's response to > scandal throughout history, right up to Enron's denials and shredding > machines. > > It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear. I > think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers. As a > scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert > lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the > "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the > corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent far > too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar daddies > than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those things > of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men. I've > never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it, and so > I welcome any challenges. > > R Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring > children. > > KP > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > Thanks! > Ryan Nelson > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From gulfgal at earthlink.net Tue May 7 23:18:52 2002 From: gulfgal at earthlink.net (Sunni Kay Zuniga) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:18:52 -0400 Subject: A comment re "pedophilia" References: <3CD89153.8B2E9C41@bbn.com> Message-ID: <001701c1f63f$154e2560$9b61d63f@t1o4e0> Clarification: It's unfair to say that most of the cases were not with teenagers or post pubescent adults (as you term them, Mike). Believe me, I'm living right in the middle of this in Boston right now and am unfortunately used to hearing victim's stories. Most of the men seemed to be around the age of 12 or 13 at the time of the abuse (13 may technically be a teenager, but it's a pretty fine line between non-teen and teen at 13) and many children as young as six suffered abuse at the hands of priests. The abuse continued into their teenage years in some of the cases, which may be part of the confusion regarding the ages. And, further, FWIW, why does it seem to make a difference if these were not children but teenagers (still troubling) and homosexual rather than heterosexual? Are you implying that some of this activity was perhaps instigated by homosexual teenagers? The church itself has made this unwise deduction themselves recently and it has subsequently caused the stir it should. Lastly, a crisis in the individuals in a church IS a crisis in the church. The church is the individuals. Doctrine won't save the church's ass forever. Some of this mess will have to be addressed in a larger fashion than through laying the blame on individuals. But, this seems far off of Percy. Just my thoughts, Sunni ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Frentz" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:45 PM Subject: [percy-l] A comment re "pedophilia" > One more brief comment (sorry about the funny spacing in my last message, I had cut and paste > the message I had written earlier that for some reason didn't post, hopefully this one is > okay..). This is also not so obviously Percy-centric, but it tries to clarify a misleading > comment in several recent posts. > > The term pedophilia has been used in most of the recent messages (and bandied in the press). > Almost all of the cases were with teenagers (post pubescent) or adults, not children per se, so > the term pedophilia is very misleading. FWIW, the majority of these cases were also homosexual, > rather than heterosexual, a case the press seems reluctant to advertise (possibly because it > dignifies the Boy Scout and Supreme Court decisions?). > > Many of the seminaries deviated significantly from Church teaching in the late sixties, > seventies, and eighties in a post Vatican II misapplication frenzy and tolerated dissension > (e.g. birth control, soft pedaling of prolife and homosexual issues) that was clearly in > violation of magisterial Church teaching. I have heard from many devout priests over the last > few years (and indeed, the priests that I've met who've been ordained recently appear to be much > more devout than their superiors) that many (most?) of the seminaries have reformed and are true > to Rome, and those that have generally also have increasing enrollments. A priest is married to > the Church. The Church believes that celibacy is a gift from God (and there are actually a > growing number of celibate lay Catholic ecclesiastical movements). My wife goes to a > Protestant-based Bible study. The apparent number of bitter ministers' wives there appears not > to be a positive solution to priestly recruiting dilemma -- I believe that faithful bishops > are. > > Per a recent Wall Street Journal article on a very traditional parish smack dab in the middle of > Silicon Valley, the pastor's motto there is "Support the Faith and the faithful will support the > Church." His enrollment is busting at the seams. That's what will turn the seminarial tide.. > > > Mike > > > > > > Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > > > Is the incidence of cleric pedophilia any greater than in any average > > sampling of adult male population? This seems important to know but I can't > > recall any analysis or discussion of it. As for the church's response, it is > > just about the same as any and every hidebound institution's response to > > scandal throughout history, right up to Enron's denials and shredding > > machines. > > > > It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear. I > > think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers. As a > > scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert > > lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the > > "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the > > corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent far > > too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar daddies > > than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those things > > of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men. I've > > never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it, and so > > I welcome any challenges. > > > > R Pauley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to > > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and > > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be > > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so > > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. > > > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) > > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring > > children. > > > > KP > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion > > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being > > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men > > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > > > Thanks! > > Ryan Nelson > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Wed May 8 00:15:10 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:15:10 -0500 Subject: Autism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's interesting to me personally that Karey Perkins brings up the topic of autism. I'm currently being treated for several metabolic conditions in Baton Rouge by Dr. Stephanie Cave, a figure in the autism community. She's of the opinion that autism is a special case of mercury poisoning which arises in a segment of the population with a defect in the natural chelating gene. Chelation is the process whereby the body grabs metal toxins floating around in the body and gets rid of them. In the case of autism it's theorized that childhood exposure to mercury unnecessarily used as a disinfectant in vaccinations (Thimerosal) affects brain development. Since autism now affects more than one in five hundred people, this is a major medical problem. Dr. Cave reports great progress treating autism as a case of mercury poisoning - the standard treatment being a monthly course of DMPS shots. There is still some controversy as to whether or not the mercury we're needlessly shooting into the arms of our babies is making them sick. I simply offer the following paper for those interested. A web search should turn it up quite easily. Bernard, et al. published a paper in 2000 drawing connections between genetic inheritance, mercury poisoning and autism called "Autism: A Unique Type of Mercury Poisoning." There is a strong correlation between exposure to mercury in Thimerosal and incidence of childhood autism. Until Thimerosal was introduced in vaccines in the early 20th century, there was never a documented case of autism. The rate of autism has increased in direct proportion to mercury exposure received through the new vaccines, the most recent being one for Hepatitis introduced in the early '90s. Evidence of a genetic component becomes apparent when you examine twins with different vaccination records. The twin with lower exposure had a statistically lower chance of getting autism with proportionally less severe symptoms. I can speak first hand about the cognitive effects of such disorders. My own exposure to mercury came through the four amalgam fillings in my teeth. Despite two knee surgeries, severely pulled muscles in my neck, chest pain and cubital tunnel syndrome by age twenty, the dentists who installed those fillings never bothered to examine me for sleep apnea/bruxism. The bruxism caused me to grind my teeth at night and there's only so much even a normal body can do to get rid of mercury. Over the next decade, I developed an inevitable case of mercury poisoning. Even a little bit of the metal can wreak havoc on every system in the body, particularly glands and neurological tissue. I'm now so sensitive to the metal, I can't eat seafood any longer thanks to the mercury-rich drilling mud the offshore oil industry has been tossing into our oceans for decades. If you don't believe me about mercury levels in fish, go buy a piece of fish from the gulf and have it tested. Tuna is one of the worst, although the FDA has been bribed to put out statements to the contrary. Pregnant women are most at risk to this kind of exposure. Despite that doctors continue to give pregnant women in utero inoculations containing Thimerosal. Combined with the exhaustion caused by apnea and a nearly lifetime yeast infection brought about by overexposure to antibiotics (called Candidiasis or Leaky Gut Syndrome), I had a severe crisis last fall which had quite substantial effects on my cognition. The naturally occurring yeast in my intestines are fungi and so were unaffected by the antibiotics. They fed on the sugar, carbohydrates, caffeine and other unhealthy components of our modern diet - even common medications like Advil. Lacking bacterial competition to balance them, the yeast exploded, causing a host of allergies and other subtle problems doctors are only now beginning to recognize. Without symbiotic bacteria, I had nothing to help me process and absorb necessary nutrients like Vitamin B complex. No vitamin B, no cognition - literally. It hasn't helped that omega-3 oil levels in the American diet have dropped precipitously over the last century. Every single one of these conditions I've described is quite common, but most doctors are not trained to spot and treat them. I would not be surprised if half the people on this list had some sort of yeast problem they have dismissed as acne, athletes' foot, hay fever or any of a hundred other things. It's easier to get a cream or salve or pill to treat the symptoms instead of giving up all those modern foods most bodies aren't evolved to handle. Yeah, I know. I come across as a vitamin-pushing Scientologist - except there are plenty of boneheaded leftists hurting themselves on vegetarian diets too because their ideologies blind them to scientific truth the same way politicians and the dairy lobby are trying to convince us that cow's milk is really healthy for our children. Who would have ever thought the healthiest item on the McDonald's menu is the patty - well, assuming it's not fried in hydrogenated oils. What I've done to treat myself is based on solid diagnostic bloodwork. You will say, oh, that's a lot of B.S. I ran out of alpha-ketoglutaric acid pills this weekend and my hands got dry and swelled back up. The insomnia came back and I couldn't focus long enough to read a single newspaper article. What's worse, I didn't want to. This happens to me now if I run out of calcium, magnesium or any of a dozen other pills. In the last six months I've quite literally lost sixty pounds without changing how much I eat or exercise. While I may have been at death's door six months ago, I do consider myself fortunate in that I will not have to wait until I'm sixty and riddled with some sort of prostate cancer to find out the toll modern living has taken on me. By then it's too late. You can't turn medical treatment into religion, but in the context of discussions on cognition I thought you would find my experiences enlightening. Whether it was the mercury or the Vitamin B deficiency or some combination, I'll never truly know. I do know for the last few years my ability to concentrate and read large books has been affected. I can concentrate as long as I'm writing, but it's become difficult to write too. Certainly the mathematics and computer programming skill has gone out the window. I never understood why. It's more a question of inclination than ability, but if you can't coax your toe into the water you can hardly swim the race. I still am startled by loud sounds. I still have days when I am fuzzier than others. At the absolute nadir of my condition, I stood, painfully, in the living room trying to have a conversation with my father. While it took everything I had to listen to him, I knew what I wanted to say in response but suddenly everything froze and I couldn't speak. As soon as I started thinking of my response, the inner voice that made me *me* was suddenly ten feet under and gasping for air. This lasted almost a minute. The whole world was crawling by anyway - my perception of time had long been screwed up - but it wasn't like one moment I had seen something and the next minute the whole arrangement had changed. It wasn't like being suddenly transported into the future. I knew my father was moving around waiting for an answer but then again I didn't really *know* that either. It's hard to explain. It was like my brain skipped a beat, but that wasn't quite it either. True, words and memories had become inaccessible to me at awkward moments but it's as if my speech centers had ceased to exist. Sometimes I'd watch a stupid sitcom and get the joke a half-hour later. The scene I had just watched would suddenly register after all that time. It's like I had seen it and now I was finally getting around to *watching* it. (Forget laughing. My facial muscles physically hurt even if I felt like it.) I used to blank out like this with doctors. Sometimes, literally, no matter how hard I tried I could not listen to people. Sometimes I couldn't stop talking. Then I'd be so sluggish sitting there with doctors I couldn't manage a word. The best strategy I adopted when talking to doctors was to imagine what they were saying as words typed on a screen and then read those back to myself in my mind's eye. That worked. I could pay attention and understand then. It wasn't like rainwater rolling off the eaves; it stuck. I'd type what I wanted to say back and read it to them. I found when I thought in text there were a lot fewer dropped words and a lot fewer missed memories and a lot fewer halting conversations. I have no idea why I was still able to do this. I had serious trouble reading. While I had trouble getting the urge to sit down and type, once I started I was fine. If it weren't for getting online and chatting with others I would have never straightened out certain parts of my condition. I could and still do write up a coherent storm. I don't know why that part of me was spared but sitting down, writing up lists and trying to coordinate research really saved me. I still download important articles but don't read them for a month. I wish I knew exactly what was affecting me. I do have faith that it will eventually go away. I am getting better and I've had a few brief moments here and there where I'm me again. I suppose the best way to explain it is to say it's like that worst moment you've ever had with the flu. You role over in the middle of the night, look at the alarm clock, see "3:30" flashing at you and you wonder why it's dark outside and you haven't been fired for not showing up at work. If it's so dark, why isn't it raining? It's that sort of confusion, except all day long. You can grab on to reality if you try, but it's like moving through mud. It's so bad you can't feel sleepy. That's how isolated you are from so many of the things essential to the human condition. If emotion and mood were sharp cutlery, then it's like trying to dine on life with bowling balls. If you're interested, you can read more on my condition and others in the Yeast-L archives. http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/yeast-l.html Apnea is a life-threatening injury to the jaw that can kill you suddenly in your sleep. It doesn't necessarily involve snoring. If you have generic joint pains, clicking sounds in your jaw, prematurely receding gums, popping ears, hearing loss or circles under your eyes, please seek out a qualified dentist for an exam. Wade Riddick From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Wed May 8 00:23:38 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:23:38 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: References: <004001c1f5f7$9054fa60$e512a8c0@sldye> Message-ID: >I read an editorial -- and I can't attest to its accuracy as I don't know >and haven't researched this topic, but if it is accurate, it has very >interesting implications for the Church -- that the celibacy requirement was >not for any deep seated theological reasons, but that early in the last >millennium, Rome gave land to priests and didn't want the church (priests' >sons) to inherit. Inheritence is certainly important. The Catholic Church was also used to settle bloody political disputes by the landed estates. If you were on a losing side, you always had the opportunity to go into the monestary where celibacy guaranteed you wouldn't have children to come back and reassert your familial rights. It was a way to retire from the bloodlines of nobility and make peace deals stick. From riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu Wed May 8 00:39:09 2002 From: riddick at mail.la.utexas.edu (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:39:09 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <00e201c1f625$7923d9a0$b20011ac@default> References: Message-ID: >>And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion >>given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > >I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being >married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men >in secular world indulge in pedophilia. I did not argue that married men are less inclined to pedophilia. I argued that celibacy limited the number of candidates for the priesthood. When a commodity is rare its price rises. This creates an institutional incentive for bureaucrats to ignore criticisms about priests. As supply dwindles, priests become too expensive to replace. It's better to shuffle them around to parishes where they're not known. It becomes cheaper to buy silence. Of course, in the end, you have to face all budget deficits and the bill on this irresponsibility is coming due. Unlike governments, churches can be and are liquidated. Take a look at the number of Protestant churches being torn down in England today. As Percy pointed out, the overall solution to the high price of priests has been to import supply. This will not be possible in a century. Already the third world birthrate is falling far faster than demographers predicted. Despite many religious groups trying to curb the use of birth control in poor countries and despite the lack of educational opportunities available to women, somehow they have started regulating the size of families on their own. There's not going to be this kind of population surplus available for export unless this trend changes suddenly again. It looks like the Catholic Church is going to be forced to confront this "supply" bottleneck eventually. As a Protestant I'm rather sad to see the debate so focused on celibacy. Churches in general are in decline and as much as anyone on the list I am dismayed to see such disdain for religion among the politically correct. Protestants suffer from serious problems getting individuals into the ministry too and from my point of view, Catholic celibacy is a dangerously distracting side issue that obscures the larger problem common to us all. From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Wed May 8 01:49:11 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 05:49:11 +0000 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? Message-ID: >From: Wade Riddick >Inheritence is certainly important. The Catholic Church was also used to >settle bloody political disputes by the landed estates. If you were on a >losing side, you always had the opportunity to go into the monestary where >celibacy guaranteed you wouldn't have children to come back and reassert >your familial rights. It was a way to retire from the bloodlines of >nobility and make peace deals stick. > If we're speaking of the medieval church, we ought to keep in mind that, for a significant portion of the clergy, celibacy wasn't a doctrine that was kept. In fact, for just the reasons Wade has pointed out, the church was in far worse trouble then than it is now. And it survived, as it will now. Rhonda _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From mfrentz at bbn.com Wed May 8 09:39:04 2002 From: mfrentz at bbn.com (Mike Frentz) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:39:04 -0400 Subject: A comment re "pedophilia" References: <3CD89153.8B2E9C41@bbn.com> <001701c1f63f$154e2560$9b61d63f@t1o4e0> Message-ID: <3CD92A78.850BFB9B@bbn.com> Sunni, I think Percy would take offense to the totally inaccurate use of language in discussing this by blindly parroting the press, as used in previous posts via the term "pedophilia". Pedophilia is not what this problem is about. Sexual sin (in this case covered by the Church's definition of sodomy and heterosexual fornication), the scandal imposed on the young through this sin, and the refutation of sworn vows to effectively "place the flock above the shepherd" is the problem. These are grave problems that should never have been tolerated within the Church (and which the Church must likewise openly condemn within society). The representative case from what I've seen seems to be a man with homosexual tendencies (typically with a poor relationship with his own father), who seemed to sense in his heart homosexuality was wrong, and went into the priesthood with good intentions but for the wrong reasons (to stifle his homosexual tendencies rather than deal with the problem). This type of person never should have made the cut for priesthood, but they did, for a variety of reasons (one of which, for better or worse, is certain bishops implicit denial of homosexuality as a disorder despite Church teaching). In no way did I imply that the adolescent was to blame. The Church is comprised of individuals, but they are individuals who are in communion as the Body of Christ. Without the faithful you don't have a Church. Without the infaithful, you don't have humanity. Unfortunately, they go together. But still, you don't reject Peter just because Judas was a bastard. The people are the Church only as the embodiment of the true doctrine. At least the RCC is held to a higher standard than the rest of society. I regard that as a positive sign (for all). Back to Percy (I hope?) Mike Sunni Kay Zuniga wrote: > Clarification: It's unfair to say that most of the cases were not with > teenagers or post pubescent adults (as you term them, Mike). Believe me, I'm > living right in the middle of this in Boston right now and am unfortunately > used to hearing victim's stories. Most of the men seemed to be around the > age of 12 or 13 at the time of the abuse (13 may technically be a teenager, > but it's a pretty fine line between non-teen and teen at 13) and many > children as young as six suffered abuse at the hands of priests. The abuse > continued into their teenage years in some of the cases, which may be part > of the confusion regarding the ages. > > And, further, FWIW, why does it seem to make a difference if these were not > children but teenagers (still troubling) and homosexual rather than > heterosexual? Are you implying that some of this activity was perhaps > instigated by homosexual teenagers? The church itself has made this unwise > deduction themselves recently and it has subsequently caused the stir it > should. > > Lastly, a crisis in the individuals in a church IS a crisis in the church. > The church is the individuals. Doctrine won't save the church's ass forever. > Some of this mess will have to be addressed in a larger fashion than through > laying the blame on individuals. > > But, this seems far off of Percy. > > Just my thoughts, > Sunni > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Frentz" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:45 PM > Subject: [percy-l] A comment re "pedophilia" > > > One more brief comment (sorry about the funny spacing in my last message, > I had cut and paste > > the message I had written earlier that for some reason didn't post, > hopefully this one is > > okay..). This is also not so obviously Percy-centric, but it tries to > clarify a misleading > > comment in several recent posts. > > > > The term pedophilia has been used in most of the recent messages (and > bandied in the press). > > Almost all of the cases were with teenagers (post pubescent) or adults, > not children per se, so > > the term pedophilia is very misleading. FWIW, the majority of these cases > were also homosexual, > > rather than heterosexual, a case the press seems reluctant to advertise > (possibly because it > > dignifies the Boy Scout and Supreme Court decisions?). > > > > Many of the seminaries deviated significantly from Church teaching in the > late sixties, > > seventies, and eighties in a post Vatican II misapplication frenzy and > tolerated dissension > > (e.g. birth control, soft pedaling of prolife and homosexual issues) that > was clearly in > > violation of magisterial Church teaching. I have heard from many devout > priests over the last > > few years (and indeed, the priests that I've met who've been ordained > recently appear to be much > > more devout than their superiors) that many (most?) of the seminaries have > reformed and are true > > to Rome, and those that have generally also have increasing enrollments. > A priest is married to > > the Church. The Church believes that celibacy is a gift from God (and > there are actually a > > growing number of celibate lay Catholic ecclesiastical movements). My > wife goes to a > > Protestant-based Bible study. The apparent number of bitter ministers' > wives there appears not > > to be a positive solution to priestly recruiting dilemma -- I believe > that faithful bishops > > are. > > > > Per a recent Wall Street Journal article on a very traditional parish > smack dab in the middle of > > Silicon Valley, the pastor's motto there is "Support the Faith and the > faithful will support the > > Church." His enrollment is busting at the seams. That's what will turn > the seminarial tide.. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > > > > > Is the incidence of cleric pedophilia any greater than in any average > > > sampling of adult male population? This seems important to know but I > can't > > > recall any analysis or discussion of it. As for the church's response, > it is > > > just about the same as any and every hidebound institution's response to > > > scandal throughout history, right up to Enron's denials and shredding > > > machines. > > > > > > It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear. > I > > > think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers. > As a > > > scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert > > > lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the > > > "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the > > > corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent > far > > > too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar > daddies > > > than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those > things > > > of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men. > I've > > > never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it, > and so > > > I welcome any challenges. > > > > > > R Pauley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM > > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > > > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > > > > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer > to > > > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, > and > > > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to > be > > > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy > requirement, so > > > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its > leadership. > > > > > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > > > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > > > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > > > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those > professions) > > > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve > mentoring > > > children. > > > > > > KP > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > > > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > > > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical > conclusion > > > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > > > > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would > being > > > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many > men > > > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Ryan Nelson > > > > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > . > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > . > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed May 8 12:31:50 2002 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:31:50 -0400 Subject: Autism References: Message-ID: <006901c1f6ad$e20f1960$e512a8c0@sldye> Hey, I'm new to this but I thought this was about Walker Percy???? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Riddick" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:15 AM Subject: [percy-l] Re: Autism > It's interesting to me personally that Karey Perkins brings up the topic of > autism. I'm currently being treated for several metabolic conditions in > Baton Rouge by Dr. Stephanie Cave, a figure in the autism community. She's > of the opinion that autism is a special case of mercury poisoning which > arises in a segment of the population with a defect in the natural > chelating gene. > > Chelation is the process whereby the body grabs metal toxins floating > around in the body and gets rid of them. In the case of autism it's > theorized that childhood exposure to mercury unnecessarily used as a > disinfectant in vaccinations (Thimerosal) affects brain development. Since > autism now affects more than one in five hundred people, this is a major > medical problem. Dr. Cave reports great progress treating autism as a case > of mercury poisoning - the standard treatment being a monthly course of > DMPS shots. > > There is still some controversy as to whether or not the mercury we're > needlessly shooting into the arms of our babies is making them sick. I > simply offer the following paper for those interested. A web search should > turn it up quite easily. Bernard, et al. published a paper in 2000 drawing > connections between genetic inheritance, mercury poisoning and autism > called "Autism: A Unique Type of Mercury Poisoning." There is a strong > correlation between exposure to mercury in Thimerosal and incidence of > childhood autism. Until Thimerosal was introduced in vaccines in the early > 20th century, there was never a documented case of autism. The rate of > autism has increased in direct proportion to mercury exposure received > through the new vaccines, the most recent being one for Hepatitis > introduced in the early '90s. Evidence of a genetic component becomes > apparent when you examine twins with different vaccination records. The > twin with lower exposure had a statistically lower chance of getting autism > with proportionally less severe symptoms. > > I can speak first hand about the cognitive effects of such disorders. > > My own exposure to mercury came through the four amalgam fillings in my > teeth. Despite two knee surgeries, severely pulled muscles in my neck, > chest pain and cubital tunnel syndrome by age twenty, the dentists who > installed those fillings never bothered to examine me for sleep > apnea/bruxism. The bruxism caused me to grind my teeth at night and > there's only so much even a normal body can do to get rid of mercury. Over > the next decade, I developed an inevitable case of mercury poisoning. Even > a little bit of the metal can wreak havoc on every system in the body, > particularly glands and neurological tissue. > > I'm now so sensitive to the metal, I can't eat seafood any longer thanks to > the mercury-rich drilling mud the offshore oil industry has been tossing > into our oceans for decades. If you don't believe me about mercury levels > in fish, go buy a piece of fish from the gulf and have it tested. Tuna is > one of the worst, although the FDA has been bribed to put out statements to > the contrary. Pregnant women are most at risk to this kind of exposure. > Despite that doctors continue to give pregnant women in utero inoculations > containing Thimerosal. > > Combined with the exhaustion caused by apnea and a nearly lifetime yeast > infection brought about by overexposure to antibiotics (called Candidiasis > or Leaky Gut Syndrome), I had a severe crisis last fall which had quite > substantial effects on my cognition. The naturally occurring yeast in my > intestines are fungi and so were unaffected by the antibiotics. They fed > on the sugar, carbohydrates, caffeine and other unhealthy components of our > modern diet - even common medications like Advil. Lacking bacterial > competition to balance them, the yeast exploded, causing a host of > allergies and other subtle problems doctors are only now beginning to > recognize. Without symbiotic bacteria, I had nothing to help me process > and absorb necessary nutrients like Vitamin B complex. No vitamin B, no > cognition - literally. It hasn't helped that omega-3 oil levels in the > American diet have dropped precipitously over the last century. > > Every single one of these conditions I've described is quite common, but > most doctors are not trained to spot and treat them. I would not be > surprised if half the people on this list had some sort of yeast problem > they have dismissed as acne, athletes' foot, hay fever or any of a hundred > other things. It's easier to get a cream or salve or pill to treat the > symptoms instead of giving up all those modern foods most bodies aren't > evolved to handle. > > Yeah, I know. I come across as a vitamin-pushing Scientologist - except > there are plenty of boneheaded leftists hurting themselves on vegetarian > diets too because their ideologies blind them to scientific truth the same > way politicians and the dairy lobby are trying to convince us that cow's > milk is really healthy for our children. > > Who would have ever thought the healthiest item on the McDonald's menu is > the patty - well, assuming it's not fried in hydrogenated oils. > > What I've done to treat myself is based on solid diagnostic bloodwork. > > You will say, oh, that's a lot of B.S. > > I ran out of alpha-ketoglutaric acid pills this weekend and my hands got > dry and swelled back up. The insomnia came back and I couldn't focus long > enough to read a single newspaper article. What's worse, I didn't want to. > This happens to me now if I run out of calcium, magnesium or any of a dozen > other pills. In the last six months I've quite literally lost sixty pounds > without changing how much I eat or exercise. > > While I may have been at death's door six months ago, I do consider myself > fortunate in that I will not have to wait until I'm sixty and riddled with > some sort of prostate cancer to find out the toll modern living has taken > on me. By then it's too late. > > You can't turn medical treatment into religion, but in the context of > discussions on cognition I thought you would find my experiences > enlightening. > > Whether it was the mercury or the Vitamin B deficiency or some combination, > I'll never truly know. I do know for the last few years my ability to > concentrate and read large books has been affected. I can concentrate as > long as I'm writing, but it's become difficult to write too. Certainly the > mathematics and computer programming skill has gone out the window. I > never understood why. It's more a question of inclination than ability, > but if you can't coax your toe into the water you can hardly swim the race. > > I still am startled by loud sounds. I still have days when I am fuzzier > than others. At the absolute nadir of my condition, I stood, painfully, in > the living room trying to have a conversation with my father. While it > took everything I had to listen to him, I knew what I wanted to say in > response but suddenly everything froze and I couldn't speak. As soon as I > started thinking of my response, the inner voice that made me *me* was > suddenly ten feet under and gasping for air. This lasted almost a minute. > The whole world was crawling by anyway - my perception of time had long > been screwed up - but it wasn't like one moment I had seen something and > the next minute the whole arrangement had changed. It wasn't like being > suddenly transported into the future. I knew my father was moving around > waiting for an answer but then again I didn't really *know* that either. > It's hard to explain. It was like my brain skipped a beat, but that wasn't > quite it either. True, words and memories had become inaccessible to me at > awkward moments but it's as if my speech centers had ceased to exist. > > Sometimes I'd watch a stupid sitcom and get the joke a half-hour later. > The scene I had just watched would suddenly register after all that time. > It's like I had seen it and now I was finally getting around to *watching* > it. (Forget laughing. My facial muscles physically hurt even if I felt > like it.) > > I used to blank out like this with doctors. Sometimes, literally, no > matter how hard I tried I could not listen to people. Sometimes I couldn't > stop talking. Then I'd be so sluggish sitting there with doctors I > couldn't manage a word. The best strategy I adopted when talking to > doctors was to imagine what they were saying as words typed on a screen and > then read those back to myself in my mind's eye. That worked. I could pay > attention and understand then. It wasn't like rainwater rolling off the > eaves; it stuck. I'd type what I wanted to say back and read it to them. > I found when I thought in text there were a lot fewer dropped words and a > lot fewer missed memories and a lot fewer halting conversations. I have no > idea why I was still able to do this. > > I had serious trouble reading. While I had trouble getting the urge to sit > down and type, once I started I was fine. If it weren't for getting online > and chatting with others I would have never straightened out certain parts > of my condition. I could and still do write up a coherent storm. I don't > know why that part of me was spared but sitting down, writing up lists and > trying to coordinate research really saved me. I still download important > articles but don't read them for a month. I wish I knew exactly what was > affecting me. I do have faith that it will eventually go away. I am > getting better and I've had a few brief moments here and there where I'm me > again. > > I suppose the best way to explain it is to say it's like that worst moment > you've ever had with the flu. You role over in the middle of the night, > look at the alarm clock, see "3:30" flashing at you and you wonder why it's > dark outside and you haven't been fired for not showing up at work. If > it's so dark, why isn't it raining? It's that sort of confusion, except > all day long. You can grab on to reality if you try, but it's like moving > through mud. It's so bad you can't feel sleepy. That's how isolated you > are from so many of the things essential to the human condition. If > emotion and mood were sharp cutlery, then it's like trying to dine on life > with bowling balls. > > If you're interested, you can read more on my condition and others in the > Yeast-L archives. > > http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/yeast-l.html > > Apnea is a life-threatening injury to the jaw that can kill you suddenly in > your sleep. It doesn't necessarily involve snoring. If you have generic > joint pains, clicking sounds in your jaw, prematurely receding gums, > popping ears, hearing loss or circles under your eyes, please seek out a > qualified dentist for an exam. > > Wade Riddick > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From brian at beachcitygas.com Wed May 8 13:49:51 2002 From: brian at beachcitygas.com (Brian Neuschwander) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:49:51 -0700 Subject: Nirvana-Lucas Helders Favorite Band Message-ID: <3CD9653F.5E72AF28@beachcitygas.com> No surprises there. Nihilism, pipe bombs, anti-government sentiments. A modern day movie goer. From evopsych at hotmail.com Wed May 8 14:24:17 2002 From: evopsych at hotmail.com (Joseph Cimino) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:24:17 -0400 Subject: Autism Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nelson at newulmtel.net Wed May 8 16:01:56 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:01:56 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molest ations by Catholic priests? References: Message-ID: <001b01c1f6cb$351754c0$b20011ac@default> I would totally second that point. if only Percy were still here and involved in the high-profile debate. It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear. I > think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers. As a > scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert > lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the > "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the > corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent far > too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar daddies > than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those things > of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men. I've > never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it, and so > I welcome any challenges. > > R Pauley > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring > children. > > KP > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > Thanks! > Ryan Nelson > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From nelson at newulmtel.net Wed May 8 16:03:27 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:03:27 -0500 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? References: Message-ID: <002101c1f6cb$6b88b580$b20011ac@default> sorry to have confused your subject. Really I was just using it as a jumping off point for mine. Sorry! > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring > children. > > KP > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > Thanks! > Ryan Nelson > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From karey at charter.net Wed May 8 16:15:49 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey Perkins) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 16:15:49 -0400 Subject: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? In-Reply-To: <002101c1f6cb$6b88b580$b20011ac@default> Message-ID: That's OK, I didn't mind...I think some others here have also said that -----Original Message----- From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 3:03 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on molestations by Catholic priests? sorry to have confused your subject. Really I was just using it as a jumping off point for mine. Sorry! > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer to > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church, and > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to be > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy requirement, so > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its leadership. > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession > that provides access to children. Boy scouts, teaching, coaching, > priesthood. (Whether or not these are married professions or not.) > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those professions) > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve mentoring > children. > > KP > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on > molestations by Catholic priests? > > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical conclusion > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals, > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would being > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many men > in secular world indulge in pedophilia. > > Thanks! > Ryan Nelson > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From jlierl at juno.com Tue May 14 15:09:01 2002 From: jlierl at juno.com (Joseph D. Lierl) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:09:01 -0700 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) Message-ID: <20020514.120902.1560.0.jlierl@juno.com> In a recent article in the LA Times, there was an article on Pop music's Moby. As an aside to the article, they published a list of Moby's top 5 movies, albums, and novels. He listed "The Moviegoer" in his top 5 novels, with this quote "This deals withthe crippling, banal aspects of contemporary life and how we are all on the cusp of grace and epiphany, but are always running away from it" Just thought it was interesting and that I would pass it along for consideration... ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From sldye at bluegrass.org Tue May 14 15:38:23 2002 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:38:23 -0400 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) References: <20020514.120902.1560.0.jlierl@juno.com> Message-ID: <005101c1fb7e$f202b7c0$e512a8c0@sldye> I actually saw Moby's quote on Percy....I don't know anything about his music but it made me want to go out and get a CD. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph D. Lierl" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 3:09 PM Subject: [percy-l] Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) > In a recent article in the LA Times, there was an article on Pop music's > Moby. As an aside to the article, they published a list of Moby's top 5 > movies, albums, and novels. > > He listed "The Moviegoer" in his top 5 novels, with this quote "This > deals withthe crippling, banal aspects of contemporary life and how we > are all on the cusp of grace and epiphany, but are always running away > from it" > > Just thought it was interesting and that I would pass it along for > consideration... > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From seanwinkel at yahoo.com Tue May 14 19:06:03 2002 From: seanwinkel at yahoo.com (Sean Winkel) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) In-Reply-To: <005101c1fb7e$f202b7c0$e512a8c0@sldye> Message-ID: <20020514230603.49435.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> His music sounds nothing like Percy's. ===== ^^^^^ > < v \@/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com From dabeck at iupui.edu Tue May 14 19:18:21 2002 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:18:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) In-Reply-To: <20020514.120902.1560.0.jlierl@juno.com> Message-ID: Every now and then I turn to an MTV station (that I somehow get, even though I don't have cable). Sometimes I do it just to confirm the direction we are heading (another chapter in the Decline of Western Civilization). Other times, I do it just to be up on what my students are talking about (to prove that I know artists more current than Dylan, CSN&Y, etc.). I saw a video of his, where he was walking around in a space suit, looking around at normal life as if he were a stranger to the place. Unfortunately, I couldn't hear what he was singing, because I was on the phone. Anyway, I'm curious about the other four favorite novels. Were they listed? David On Tue, 14 May 2002, Joseph D. Lierl wrote: > In a recent article in the LA Times, there was an article on Pop music's > Moby. As an aside to the article, they published a list of Moby's top 5 > movies, albums, and novels. > > He listed "The Moviegoer" in his top 5 novels, with this quote "This > deals withthe crippling, banal aspects of contemporary life and how we > are all on the cusp of grace and epiphany, but are always running away > from it" > > Just thought it was interesting and that I would pass it along for > consideration... > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > > > David Beck "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority." - E. B. White From jlierl at juno.com Wed May 15 01:05:04 2002 From: jlierl at juno.com (Joseph D. Lierl) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:05:04 -0700 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) Message-ID: <20020514.220505.3560.0.jlierl@juno.com> Yes, all the novels were listed and imho good choices.... Here are all the album, movie and novel mentions... Albums, movies and books Moby recommends: Albums Julee Cruise's "Floating Into the Night" (Warner Bros., 1990). "A consistently beautiful, romantic record." Massive Attack's "Protection" (Virgin, 1994). "Lots of musicians seem more comfortable characterizing themselves as either aggressive macho musicians or very delicate, sensitive musicians. Massive Attack is comfortable being both." Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue." David Bowie's "Low" (RCA, 1977). "A lovely but disconcerting record." Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's "Deja Vu" (Atlantic, 1970). Movies "Dead Man Walking" (1995). "The frailty of the human condition was dealt with in a very graceful way." "Dogma" (1999). "I can't remember a movie that dealt with the dry, clinical aspects of religion and presented them in a lighthearted, entertaining way." "Fireworks" (1997). "Takeshi Kitano is my favorite living filmmaker." "Man Facing Southeast" (1986). "This is an Argentine film about a man who thinks he's a space alien, and you are never quite sure whether he is or isn't." "Starship Troopers" (1997). "An art film in the trappings of a banal, generic science-fiction movie." Novels "The Moviegoer" by Walker Percy. "This deals with the crippling, banal aspects of contemporary life and how we are all on the cusp of grace and epiphany, but are always running away from it." "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Cord. "I grew up obsessed with science-fiction books because I'm basically a geek, and this might be the best one ever written." "The Idiot" by Fyodor Dostoevsky. "If someone doesn't have too much of an attention span, just read the first 200 pages and the last 80 pages. That's where all the action happens." "A Season in Hell" by Arthur Rimbaud. "His poetry is so explosive, almost like poetry that is dripping off the fangs of some animal that has just killed something." "The Jungle Books" by Rudyard Kipling. "The movie is kinda frivolous, but the books are deadly serious." On Tue, 14 May 2002 18:18:21 -0500 (EST) David Alan Beck writes: > > Every now and then I turn to an MTV station (that I somehow get, > even > though I don't have cable). Sometimes I do it just to confirm the > direction we are heading (another chapter in the Decline of Western > Civilization). Other times, I do it just to be up on what my > students are > talking about (to prove that I know artists more current than > Dylan, > CSN&Y, etc.). I saw a video of his, where he was walking around in a > space > suit, looking around at normal life as if he were a stranger to the > place. > Unfortunately, I couldn't hear what he was singing, because I was on > the > phone. Anyway, I'm curious about the other four favorite novels. > Were they > listed? > David > > On Tue, 14 May 2002, Joseph D. Lierl wrote: > > > In a recent article in the LA Times, there was an article on Pop > music's > > Moby. As an aside to the article, they published a list of Moby's > top 5 > > movies, albums, and novels. > > > > He listed "The Moviegoer" in his top 5 novels, with this quote > "This > > deals withthe crippling, banal aspects of contemporary life and > how we > > are all on the cusp of grace and epiphany, but are always running > away > > from it" > > > > Just thought it was interesting and that I would pass it along > for > > consideration... > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > . > > > > > > > > > David Beck > > "I would feel more optimistic about a bright > future for man if he spent less time proving that > he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness > and respecting her seniority." > - E. B. White > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From nelson at newulmtel.net Wed May 15 18:36:34 2002 From: nelson at newulmtel.net (Nelson) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:36:34 -0500 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) References: <20020514230603.49435.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c1fc82$15c89720$b20011ac@default> I would actually search out some of the interviews and articles on the man. He is an existing guy and a person God is definitely using which can be said for almost 95 percent of the other artists on MTV (which is not to saythere isn't good pop/rockmusic being made "underground") Ryan > His music sounds nothing like Percy's. > > ===== > ^^^^^ > > < > v > \@/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > From PARLINS at culver.org Thu May 16 15:48:54 2002 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:48:54 -0500 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE330201@EXCHANGESERVER> 95%? What MTV have you been watching? -----Original Message----- From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:37 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Re: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) I would actually search out some of the interviews and articles on the man. He is an existing guy and a person God is definitely using which can be said for almost 95 percent of the other artists on MTV (which is not to saythere isn't good pop/rockmusic being made "underground") Ryan > His music sounds nothing like Percy's. > > ===== > ^^^^^ > > < > v > \@/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at . > Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU Thu May 16 18:01:08 2002 From: rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU (rflynn at GUILFORD.EDU) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:01:08 -0400 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) Message-ID: I don't think there's much of a connection between the works of Percy and Moby. In fact, Percy might have been a bit disgusted by the fact that every song on Moby's last album was lisenced for commercial advertisements. However, Moby has been able to keep a some blues, folk, and punk rock in his music despite the fact that most of what he makes now is done with electronic button-twisting machines. Moby was the singer for the excellent punk band Flipper for six months. From wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org Thu May 16 18:36:58 2002 From: wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: The Game Message-ID: Percy-L: Something coming down the tube. Anyone know of this movie or care to offer a comment? Henry Mills > From: Read Mercer Schuchardt > Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 00:49:03 -0400 > To: wpercy1 at ibiblio.org > Subject: The Game > > Hi, > > You might want to check out Metaphilm's interpretation of the movie "The > Game," which references Walker Percy as a key influence on the ideas in the > film. > > The site is at http://www.metaphilm.com and treats film much the way Percy > treated culture -- diagnostically. > > Kind regards, > > Read > > > Read Mercer Schuchardt > Founder > CLEAVE: The Counter Agency > Tel: 201-653-7820 > Email: read at cleave.com > URL: www.cleave.com From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Thu May 16 19:07:41 2002 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:07:41 -0500 Subject: The Game Message-ID: Movie came out a few years ago, thriller with Michael Douglas about a smug, heartless billionaire whose life is changed by his brother's birthday gift of a play-acting game that turns real and apparently deadly. I can see someone citing Percy about this, as story relates to his themes of rotation, of unlooked-for thrill when "everydayness" is shattered. Premise of film is better than film. -----Original Message----- From: Henry P. Mills [mailto:wpercy1 at mail.ibiblio.org] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 3:37 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] The Game Percy-L: Something coming down the tube. Anyone know of this movie or care to offer a comment? Henry Mills > From: Read Mercer Schuchardt > Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 00:49:03 -0400 > To: wpercy1 at ibiblio.org > Subject: The Game > > Hi, > > You might want to check out Metaphilm's interpretation of the movie "The > Game," which references Walker Percy as a key influence on the ideas in the > film. > > The site is at http://www.metaphilm.com and treats film much the way Percy > treated culture -- diagnostically. > > Kind regards, > > Read > > > Read Mercer Schuchardt > Founder > CLEAVE: The Counter Agency > Tel: 201-653-7820 > Email: read at cleave.com > URL: www.cleave.com -- An archive of all list discussion is available at . Visit the Walker Percy Project at . From JamzSimp at aol.com Thu May 16 21:33:49 2002 From: JamzSimp at aol.com (JamzSimp at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:33:49 EDT Subject: The Game Message-ID: <158.e030b11.2a15b7fd@aol.com> This film has more in common with John Fowles' "The Magus" than with Percy, though of course it isn't beyond the spectrum of possibility that Percy and Fowles might have some coincidental themes occasionally. Eric Simpson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ttbrader at mindspring.com Thu May 16 21:44:55 2002 From: ttbrader at mindspring.com (Teresa Brader) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:44:55 -0500 Subject: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA Times...) References: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE330201@EXCHANGESERVER> Message-ID: <3CE46097.4050107@mindspring.com> I may be wrong, but I think Ryan meant to put the word 'cannot' not 'can' in his second sentence. Teresa Parlin, Steven wrote: >95%? What MTV have you been watching? > > -----Original Message----- >From: Nelson [mailto:nelson at newulmtel.net] >Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:37 PM >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >Subject: [percy-l] Re: Pop music Moby's top 5 novels.... (from the LA >Times...) > >I would actually search out some of the interviews and articles on the man. >He is an existing guy and a person God is definitely using which can be said >for almost 95 percent of the other artists on MTV (which is not to saythere >isn't good pop/rockmusic being made "underground") > >Ryan > >>His music sounds nothing like Percy's. >> >>===== >>^^^^^ >> >>> < >>> >> v >> \@/ >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience >>http://launch.yahoo.com >> >>-- >>An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >. > >>Visit the Walker Percy Project at . >> > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >. >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at . >Visit the Walker Percy Project at . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: