From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Mar 5 20:26:14 2003 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:26:14 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Message-ID: <55FBDD2BD972FE4D913ABDD2775099BCB9D812@olawexc1.naoxy.com> It was Percy quoting O'Connor. R. Pauley -----Original Message----- From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or Percy quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came across it in "Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An Interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is the first time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to another use of the phrase? By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy ("Pilgrim in the Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. Karey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JHForest at cs.com Thu Mar 6 06:46:05 2003 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:46:05 EST Subject: [percy-l] Shelby Foote biography Message-ID: <15e.1c68ee5d.2b988efd@cs.com> In a message dated 3/5/2003 2:16:03 PM W. Europe Standard Time, cstuartchapman at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry about the lack of details. The book is being published by the > University Press of Mississippi. ISBN: 1578063590. And the title? Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From apridgen at pinehurst.net Thu Mar 6 09:30:37 2003 From: apridgen at pinehurst.net (Allen Pridgen) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:30:37 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: <55FBDD2BD972FE4D913ABDD2775099BCB9D812@olawexc1.naoxy.com> <001201c2e3ea$9496fa10$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <3E675B8D.7010407@pinehurst.net> See the last pages of O'Connor's Introduction to A Memoir of Mary Ann on "tenderness" and the "fumers of the gas chamber." This essay (the final one in Mystery and Manners) is a truly profound statement about human suffering and charity. I invite you to look at my commentary on this matter in my book, Walker Percy's Sacramental Landscapes (Susquehanna UP, 2000). Allen Pridgen Karey L. Perkins wrote: > When, what context or work, did O'Connor use it? > > KP > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > > R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or > Percy quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came > across it in "Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An > Interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). > > Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is > the first time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to > another use of the phrase? > > By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy > ("Pilgrim in the Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. > > Karey > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 09:52:17 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:52:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: <55FBDD2BD972FE4D913ABDD2775099BCB9D812@olawexc1.naoxy.com><001201c2e3ea$9496fa10$0301000a@AFAC955012> <3E675B8D.7010407@pinehurst.net> Message-ID: <005301c2e3ef$fbe60580$0301000a@AFAC955012> Thanks very much for the reference. I thought that one or both had said it, but didn't know the original context nor who said it first -- I'd actually never read the quote itself until last week. I do have your book, Allen. Haven't started it yet but I will soon and I believe it will help me a lot, given the topics covered. Also have the O'Connor Mystery & Manners book which I had previously guessed might be relevant, but didn't know the quote was in there. I am composing the bibliography for the dissertation now, and am trying to figure out which are the essential secondary Percy texts -- I have so far, in no particular order, Lawson & Kramer's "Conversations" (both), Lawson's "Following Percy"s (both), Gary Ciuba's "WP: Book of Revelations," Crowley & Crowley's "Critical Essays," Martin Luschei "The Sovereign Wayfarer," Quinlan "The Last Catholic Novelist," Elliot & Lantos "The Last Physician," Broughton "The Art of Percy," Rudnicki "Percyscapes," William Rodney Allen "A Southern Wayfarer," Robert Lauder "Walker Percy: Prophetic, Existentialist, Catholic Storyteller," Poteat "WP and the Old Modern Age," and of course, Pridgeon "WP's Sacramental Landscapes." This is in addition to the biographies and Ketner's "A Thief of Peirce" and of course the various other philosophers that influenced Percy (Marcel, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Aquinas, Peirce's primary essays) and then the ones that relate specifically to my topic. Are there any other basic secondary Percy texts? Have I missed an important one?? Thanks again... Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Pridgen To: Percy-L at happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu:Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." See the last pages of O'Connor's Introduction to A Memoir of Mary Ann on "tenderness" and the "fumers of the gas chamber." This essay (the final one in Mystery and Manners) is a truly profound statement about human suffering and charity. I invite you to look at my commentary on this matter in my book, Walker Percy's Sacramental Landscapes (Susquehanna UP, 2000). Allen Pridgen Karey L. Perkins wrote: When, what context or work, did O'Connor use it? KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." It was Percy quoting O'Connor. R. Pauley -----Original Message----- From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or Percy quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came across it in "Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An Interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is the first time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to another use of the phrase? By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy ("Pilgrim in the Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. Karey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 09:57:58 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:57:58 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: <55FBDD2BD972FE4D913ABDD2775099BCB9D812@olawexc1.naoxy.com><001201c2e3ea$9496fa10$0301000a@AFAC955012><3E675B8D.7010407@pinehurst.net> <005301c2e3ef$fbe60580$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <006d01c2e3f0$c6f42360$0301000a@AFAC955012> Forgot one: Ralph Wood's "Comedy of Redemption" KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Karey L. Perkins To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Thanks very much for the reference. I thought that one or both had said it, but didn't know the original context nor who said it first -- I'd actually never read the quote itself until last week. I do have your book, Allen. Haven't started it yet but I will soon and I believe it will help me a lot, given the topics covered. Also have the O'Connor Mystery & Manners book which I had previously guessed might be relevant, but didn't know the quote was in there. I am composing the bibliography for the dissertation now, and am trying to figure out which are the essential secondary Percy texts -- I have so far, in no particular order, Lawson & Kramer's "Conversations" (both), Lawson's "Following Percy"s (both), Gary Ciuba's "WP: Book of Revelations," Crowley & Crowley's "Critical Essays," Martin Luschei "The Sovereign Wayfarer," Quinlan "The Last Catholic Novelist," Elliot & Lantos "The Last Physician," Broughton "The Art of Percy," Rudnicki "Percyscapes," William Rodney Allen "A Southern Wayfarer," Robert Lauder "Walker Percy: Prophetic, Existentialist, Catholic Storyteller," Poteat "WP and the Old Modern Age," and of course, Pridgeon "WP's Sacramental Landscapes." This is in addition to the biographies and Ketner's "A Thief of Peirce" and of course the various other philosophers that influenced Percy (Marcel, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Aquinas, Peirce's primary essays) and then the ones that relate specifically to my topic. Are there any other basic secondary Percy texts? Have I missed an important one?? Thanks again... Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Pridgen To: Percy-L at happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu:Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." See the last pages of O'Connor's Introduction to A Memoir of Mary Ann on "tenderness" and the "fumers of the gas chamber." This essay (the final one in Mystery and Manners) is a truly profound statement about human suffering and charity. I invite you to look at my commentary on this matter in my book, Walker Percy's Sacramental Landscapes (Susquehanna UP, 2000). Allen Pridgen Karey L. Perkins wrote: When, what context or work, did O'Connor use it? KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." It was Percy quoting O'Connor. R. Pauley -----Original Message----- From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or Percy quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came across it in "Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An Interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is the first time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to another use of the phrase? By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy ("Pilgrim in the Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. Karey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Mar 6 10:17:39 2003 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:17:39 EST Subject: [percy-l] "...additional materials for dissertation" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/6/03 8:55:11 AM Central Standard Time, karey at charter.net writes: > > > Thanks very much for the reference. I thought that one or both had said > it, but didn't know the original context nor who said it first -- I'd > actually never read the quote itself until last week. > > I do have your book, Allen. Haven't started it yet but I will soon and I > believe it will help me a lot, given the topics covered. Also have the > O'Connor Mystery & Manners book which I had previously guessed might be > relevant, but didn't know the quote was in there. > > I am composing the bibliography for the dissertation now, and am trying to > figure out which are the essential secondary Percy texts -- I have so far, > in no particular order, Lawson & Kramer's "Conversations" (both), Lawson's > "Following Percy"s (both), Gary Ciuba's "WP: Book of Revelations," Crowley & > Crowley's "Critical Essays," Martin Luschei "The Sovereign Wayfarer," > Quinlan "The Last Catholic Novelist," Elliot & Lantos "The Last Physician," > Broughton "The Art of Percy," Rudnicki "Percyscapes," William Rodney Allen > "A Southern Wayfarer," Robert Lauder "Walker Percy: Prophetic, > Existentialist, Catholic Storyteller," Poteat "WP and the Old Modern Age," > and of course, Pridgeon "WP's Sacramental Landscapes." > > This is in addition to the biographies and Ketner's "A Thief of Peirce" and > of course the various other philosophers that influenced Percy (Marcel, > Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Aquinas, Peirce's primary essays) and then the ones > that relate specifically to my topic. > > Are there any other basic secondary Percy texts? Have I missed an > important one?? > > Thanks again... > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Pridgen > To: Percy-L at happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu:Literary and Philosophical > Discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > See the last pages of O'Connor's Introduction to A Memoir of Mary Ann on > "tenderness" and the "fumers of the gas chamber." This essay (the final one > in Mystery and Manners) is a truly profound statement about human suffering > and charity. > I invite you to look at my commentary on this matter in my book, Walker > Percy's Sacramental Landscapes (Susquehanna UP, 2000). > > Allen Pridgen > > > Karey L. Perkins wrote: > >> When, what context or work, did O'Connor use it? >> >> KP >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM >> Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >> >> >> >> It was Percy quoting O'Connor. >> >> R. Pauley >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM >>> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >>> >>> >>> I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or Percy >>> quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came across it in >>> "Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An Interview with Zoltan >>> Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). >>> >>> Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is the first >>> time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to another use of the >>> phrase? >>> >>> By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy ("Pilgrim in the >>> Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. >>> >>> Karey >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit I think you would find it interesting to read Autobiography in Walker Percy by Ed Dupuy. I'd also suggest that in addition to the Tolson bio you should have at least for reference purposes Pat Samway's. The latter has great depth of detail and is therefore useful in constructing a scholarly work which I gather is your objective. Should you go into Walker's relationship to music in your work, I have a discography of his record collection which has not been published simply because I've not had the time to get it into the archive. This might be the time to do it. following on your discussion of sources re O'Connor, you might wish to refer to the archive discussion we had about two to four years back on the tenderness issue as reflected in Thanatos via the Father Smith's confession sequence. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 10:33:56 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:33:56 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...additional materials for dissertation" References: Message-ID: <00c901c2e3f5$cd5afc60$0301000a@AFAC955012> Thanks -- I'll add that to the list. I do have Samway's bio of Percy, but haven't read that yet -- I'll look throught the archives... KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikkibar at aol.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...additional materials for dissertation" I think you would find it interesting to read Autobiography in Walker Percy by Ed Dupuy. I'd also suggest that in addition to the Tolson bio you should have at least for reference purposes Pat Samway's. The latter has great depth of detail and is therefore useful in constructing a scholarly work which I gather is your objective. Should you go into Walker's relationship to music in your work, I have a discography of his record collection which has not been published simply because I've not haTd the time to get it into the archive. This might be the time to do it. following on your discussion of sources re O'Connor, you might wish to refer to the archive discussion we had about two to four years back on the tenderness issue as reflected in Thanatos via the Father Smith's confession sequence. Nikki -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 11:18:11 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: <3e67674e.c420ce.0@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <00d601c2e3fb$fb8c0830$0301000a@AFAC955012> Marcus, Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy about the hidden dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- rejection of human uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's symbolizing capacity. Dogma 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, secular humanism preaches the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in man]... that cannot be laid to the influence of Western civilization." He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just of fundamentalist beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific inquiry (for the latter to be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is subject to this or that ideology, then do not be surprised if the history of the Weimar doctors is repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The nihilism of some scientists in the name of ideology or sentimentality and the consequent devaluation of the individual human life lead straight to the gas chamber" (p. 396, Signposts). In an earlier essay he spoke of the "theorist-consumer" which I think relates to this as well...especially the "theorist" part -- which is not concerned about the particular individual. I think it also relates to "ideology" which he uses above. And also to "utopian" visions, which Hitler had, which is concerned about the creation of perfect society at the expense of the individual. So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a reductive way of viewing the situation. It seems more like this: If you are sentimentally attached to your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the expense of true empathy and compassion for the particular individual before you....well, "to the gas chamber." Which is why God came to us as a particular individual. Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time swallowing some of the patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a patriot or not for my country, but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" and seems dangerous -- in danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. It can become idoloatry (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision commitments at the expense of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to and sentiment for country before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- that IS idolatry. Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the middle-easterner, now; the Jew then) because they are not "American" or "Christian" is idolatry and ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for YOUR "side" or theory or vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to do if these people are "theories" but once they are real people, it's impossible (or more difficult) to do. When God is first, we are all one before Him. Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: marcus at loyno.edu To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Is the list discussing the remark that sentimentality leads to the gas chambers? (I'm coming in late.) The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and maybe these discussions are still available. I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just sentimentality that led the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to be where the quote took the discussions. There was (and is) also anti-semitism which doesn't require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of the holocaust, as everyone here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. The focus only on sentimentality is extremely reductive. Check the archives. Marcus Smith > > > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor use it? > >KP > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > >R. Pauley > -----Original Message----- > From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally said this, or Percy >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I recently came across it in >"Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An Interview with Zoltan >Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). > > Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy original" and this is the first >time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring to another use of the >phrase? > > By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of Percy ("Pilgrim in the >Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. > > Karey > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- >---- > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 11:29:19 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <00d601c2e3fb$fb8c0830$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <20030306162919.11191.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? jim w --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > Marcus, > > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- > rejection of human > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, > secular humanism preaches > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > man]... that cannot be laid to > the influence of Western civilization." > > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just > of fundamentalist > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific > inquiry (for the latter to > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is > subject to this or that > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history of > the Weimar doctors is > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The nihilism > of some scientists in > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the > consequent devaluation of the > individual human life lead straight to the gas > chamber" (p. 396, > Signposts). > > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > "theorist-consumer" which I think > relates to this as well...especially the "theorist" > part -- which is not > concerned about the particular individual. I think > it also relates to > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > had, which is concerned about the creation of > perfect society at the expense > of the individual. > > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a > reductive way of viewing the > situation. It seems more like this: If you are > sentimentally attached to > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the > expense of true empathy and > compassion for the particular individual before > you....well, "to the gas > chamber." > > Which is why God came to us as a particular > individual. > > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time > swallowing some of the > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a patriot > or not for my country, > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" > and seems dangerous -- in > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. > It can become idoloatry > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision > commitments at the expense > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to > and sentiment for country > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- that > IS idolatry. > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the > middle-easterner, now; the > Jew then) because they are not "American" or > "Christian" is idolatry and > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for YOUR > "side" or theory or > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to do > if these people are > "theories" but once they are real people, it's > impossible (or more > difficult) to do. > > When God is first, we are all one before Him. > > Karey > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: marcus at loyno.edu > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > Is the list discussing the remark that > sentimentality leads to the gas > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) > > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and > maybe these discussions > are still available. > > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just > sentimentality that led > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to > be where the quote took > the discussions. There was (and is) also > anti-semitism which doesn't > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of the > holocaust, as everyone > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. > The focus only on > sentimentality is extremely reductive. > > > Check the archives. > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor use > it? > > > >KP > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > > > >R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally > said this, or Percy > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I > recently came across it in > >"Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An > Interview with Zoltan > >Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). > > > > Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy > original" and this is the > first > >time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring > to another use of the > >phrase? > > > > By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of > Percy ("Pilgrim in the > >Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. > > > > Karey > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >---- > > > > > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 11:54:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from dc-mx14.cluster1.charter.net (dc-mx14.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.24]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E783120013 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:54:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.186.149.176] (HELO AFAC955012) by dc-mx14.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with SMTP id 80677042 for percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 11:56:01 -0500 Message-ID: <00f701c2e400$f140bd80$0301000a at AFAC955012> From: "Karey L. Perkins" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <20030306162919.11191.qmail at web10805.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:53:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2E3D7.083833D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:54:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2E3D7.083833D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know -- except that the quote came from her originally, as Allen and Robert said. The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn" reads... "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by tenderness. It is tenderness which, long since cut off from the person of Christ, is wrapped in theory. When tenderness is detached from the source of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in forced labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and Manners). Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same thing. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Wesson To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? jim w --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > Marcus, > > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- > rejection of human > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, > secular humanism preaches > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > man]... that cannot be laid to > the influence of Western civilization." > > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just > of fundamentalist > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific > inquiry (for the latter to > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is > subject to this or that > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history of > the Weimar doctors is > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The nihilism > of some scientists in > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the > consequent devaluation of the > individual human life lead straight to the gas > chamber" (p. 396, > Signposts). > > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > "theorist-consumer" which I think > relates to this as well...especially the "theorist" > part -- which is not > concerned about the particular individual. I think > it also relates to > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > had, which is concerned about the creation of > perfect society at the expense > of the individual. > > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a > reductive way of viewing the > situation. It seems more like this: If you are > sentimentally attached to > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the > expense of true empathy and > compassion for the particular individual before > you....well, "to the gas > chamber." > > Which is why God came to us as a particular > individual. > > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time > swallowing some of the > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a patriot > or not for my country, > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" > and seems dangerous -- in > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. > It can become idoloatry > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision > commitments at the expense > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to > and sentiment for country > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- that > IS idolatry. > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the > middle-easterner, now; the > Jew then) because they are not "American" or > "Christian" is idolatry and > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for YOUR > "side" or theory or > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to do > if these people are > "theories" but once they are real people, it's > impossible (or more > difficult) to do. > > When God is first, we are all one before Him. > > Karey > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: marcus at loyno.edu > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > Is the list discussing the remark that > sentimentality leads to the gas > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) > > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and > maybe these discussions > are still available. > > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just > sentimentality that led > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to > be where the quote took > the discussions. There was (and is) also > anti-semitism which doesn't > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of the > holocaust, as everyone > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. > The focus only on > sentimentality is extremely reductive. > > > Check the archives. > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor use > it? > > > >KP > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > > > >R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Karey L. Perkins [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had originally > said this, or Percy > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I > recently came across it in > >"Signposts in a Strange Land" in the epilogue "An > Interview with Zoltan > >Abadi-Nagy" -- last line (p. 396, Picador). > > > > Am I correct in assuming this is a "Percy > original" and this is the > first > >time the phrase had been said? Or is he referring > to another use of the > >phrase? > > > > By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of > Percy ("Pilgrim in the > >Ruins") and I thought it was fantastic. > > > > Karey > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >---- > > > > > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2E3D7.083833D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know -- except that the quote = came from her=20 originally, as Allen and Robert said.
 
The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for = MaryAnn"=20 reads...
 
"In the absence of this faith now, we = govern by=20 tenderness.  It is tenderness which, long since cut off from the = person of=20 Christ, is wrapped in theory.  When tenderness is detached from the = source=20 of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror [terrorism?].  It ends = in=20 forced labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery = and=20 Manners).
 
Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are = saying the same=20 thing.
 
KP
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim = Wesson=20
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas = chamber..."


so please, how does f. o'connor come into all = this?
jim w=20


--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey at charter.net> = wrote:
>=20 Marcus,
>
> Percy is speaking in this interview with = Zoltan
>=20 Abadi-Nagy about the hidden
> dogmas of the secular point of = view: =20 Dogma 1 --
> rejection of human
> uniqueness and thus of the = uniqueness of man's
> symbolizing capacity.  Dogma
> 2 = -- the=20 noble savage (no original sin).  That is,
> secular humanism=20 preaches
> the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in
> = man]...=20 that cannot be laid to
> the influence of Western = civilization."
>=20
> He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just
> of=20 fundamentalist
> beliefs, but of secular humanism and = scientific
>=20 inquiry (for the latter to
> be "free").  "The warning:  = if it=20 is not, if it is
> subject to this or that
> ideology, then = do not=20 be surprised if the history of
> the Weimar doctors is
>=20 repeated.  Weimar leads to Auschwitz.  The nihilism
> of = some=20 scientists in
> the name of ideology or sentimentality and = the
>=20 consequent devaluation of the
> individual human life lead = straight to the=20 gas
> chamber"  (p. 396,
> Signposts).
>
> = In an=20 earlier essay he spoke of the
> "theorist-consumer" which I = think
>=20 relates to this as well...especially the "theorist"
> part -- = which is=20 not
> concerned about the particular individual.  I = think
> it=20 also relates to
> "ideology" which he uses above.  And also=20 to
> "utopian" visions, which Hitler
> had, which is = concerned about=20 the creation of
> perfect society at the expense
> of the=20 individual.
>
> So I agree with you that "sentimentality" = is=20 a
> reductive way of viewing the
> situation.  It seems = more=20 like this:  If you are
> sentimentally attached to
> = your=20 ideology or theory or utopian vision at the
> expense of true = empathy=20 and
> compassion for the particular individual before
> = you....well,=20 "to the gas
> chamber."
>
> Which is why God came to = us as a=20 particular
> individual.
>
> Relating to current = events --=20 I've had a hard time
> swallowing some of the
> patriotism = since=20 9/11 -- not that I'm not a patriot
> or not for my = country,
> but=20 really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality"
> and seems = dangerous=20 --  in
> danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. =
>=20 It can become idoloatry
> (another aspect of = ideology/theory/utopian=20 vision
> commitments at the expense
> of the=20 individual).   Loyalty to and commitment to
> and = sentiment for=20 country
> before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- = that
> IS=20 idolatry.
> Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or = the
>=20 middle-easterner, now; the
> Jew then) because they are not = "American"=20 or
> "Christian" is idolatry and
> ideology, and it arises = from=20 sentimentility for YOUR
> "side" or theory or
> vision or=20 ideology.    In addition, it's easy to do
> if = these people=20 are
> "theories" but once they are real people, it's
> = impossible=20 (or more
> difficult) to do.
>
> When God is first, = we are=20 all one before Him.
>
> Karey
>
>
> =
>=20 ----- Original Message -----
> From: marcus at loyno.edu
> To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>=20 Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] = "...to=20 the gas chamber..."
>
>
> Is the list discussing the = remark=20 that
> sentimentality leads to the gas
> chambers?  = (I'm coming=20 in late.)
>
> The Percy list has visited this phrase = before,=20 and
> maybe these discussions
> are still available.
> =
> I recall making a small demurrer.  It wasn't just
>=20 sentimentality that led
> the way to the gas chambers, though that = seemed=20 to
> be where the quote took
> the discussions.  There = was (and=20 is) also
> anti-semitism which doesn't
> require = sentimentality to=20 thrive.  The causes of the
> holocaust, as everyone
> = here=20 realizes, is an enormously complex subject.
> The focus only = on
>=20 sentimentality is extremely reductive.
>
>
> Check = the=20 archives.
>
> Marcus Smith
>
>
> =
>=20 >
> >
> >
> >MessageWhen, what context or = work,=20 did O'Connor use
> it?
> >
> >KP
> = >
>=20 >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com
> = >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>=20 >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM
> >Subject: RE: = [percy-l]=20 "...to the gas chamber..."
> >
> >
> >It was = Percy=20 quoting O'Connor.
> >
> >R. Pauley
> > =20 -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Karey L. Perkins=20 [mailto:karey at charter.net]
> >  Sent: Wednesday, March 05, = 2003=20 5:35 AM
> >  To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>=20 >  Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> = >
>=20 >
> >  I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had = originally
>=20 said this, or Percy
> >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone = else. =20 I
> recently came across it in
> >"Signposts in a Strange = Land"=20 in the epilogue "An
> Interview with Zoltan
> = >Abadi-Nagy" --=20 last line (p. 396, Picador).
> >
> >  Am I = correct in=20 assuming this is a "Percy
> original" and this is the
>=20 first
> >time the phrase had been said?  Or is he=20 referring
> to another use of the
> >phrase?
> = >
>=20 >  By the way, I just finished Tolson's biography of
> = Percy=20 ("Pilgrim in the
> >Ruins") and I thought it was = fantastic.
>=20 >
> >  Karey
> >
> >
>=20 >
>
>-----------------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>=20 --
> >----
> >
> >
> >--
>=20 >
> >An archive of all list discussion is available = at
>=20 >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
> >
> = >Visit the=20 Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy<= BR>>=20 >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> = >--
>=20 >
> >An archive of all list discussion is available = at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/w= percy/hypermail
>=20 >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy<= BR>>=20 >
> >
>
> --
>
> An archive of all = list=20 discussion is available at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/w= percy/hypermail
>=20
=3D=3D=3D message truncated=20 =3D=3D=3D


__________________________________________________Do you=20 Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--
An=20 archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/w= percy/hypermail

Visit=20 the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2E3D7.083833D0-- From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 12:11:25 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:11:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <00f701c2e400$f140bd80$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <20030306171125.44862.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com> But there was much tenderness in the forced labor camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness. there is tenderness all over. jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc. just like to read Percy and O'connor.) --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > I don't know -- except that the quote came from her > originally, as Allen and > Robert said. > > The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn" > reads... > > "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by > tenderness. It is > tenderness which, long since cut off from the person > of Christ, is wrapped > in theory. When tenderness is detached from the > source of tenderness, its > logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in > forced labor camps and > in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and > Manners). > > Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same > thing. > > KP > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Wesson > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? > jim w > > > --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > > Marcus, > > > > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan > > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- > > rejection of human > > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's > > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, > > secular humanism preaches > > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > > man]... that cannot be laid to > > the influence of Western civilization." > > > > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not > just > > of fundamentalist > > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific > > inquiry (for the latter to > > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is > > subject to this or that > > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history > of > > the Weimar doctors is > > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The > nihilism > > of some scientists in > > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the > > consequent devaluation of the > > individual human life lead straight to the gas > > chamber" (p. 396, > > Signposts). > > > > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > > "theorist-consumer" which I think > > relates to this as well...especially the > "theorist" > > part -- which is not > > concerned about the particular individual. I > think > > it also relates to > > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > > had, which is concerned about the creation of > > perfect society at the expense > > of the individual. > > > > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a > > reductive way of viewing the > > situation. It seems more like this: If you are > > sentimentally attached to > > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the > > expense of true empathy and > > compassion for the particular individual before > > you....well, "to the gas > > chamber." > > > > Which is why God came to us as a particular > > individual. > > > > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time > > swallowing some of the > > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a > patriot > > or not for my country, > > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" > > and seems dangerous -- in > > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. > > It can become idoloatry > > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision > > commitments at the expense > > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to > > and sentiment for country > > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- > that > > IS idolatry. > > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the > > middle-easterner, now; the > > Jew then) because they are not "American" or > > "Christian" is idolatry and > > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for > YOUR > > "side" or theory or > > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to > do > > if these people are > > "theories" but once they are real people, it's > > impossible (or more > > difficult) to do. > > > > When God is first, we are all one before Him. > > > > Karey > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: marcus at loyno.edu > > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > Is the list discussing the remark that > > sentimentality leads to the gas > > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) > > > > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and > > maybe these discussions > > are still available. > > > > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just > > sentimentality that led > > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to > > be where the quote took > > the discussions. There was (and is) also > > anti-semitism which doesn't > > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of > the > > holocaust, as everyone > > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. > > The focus only on > > sentimentality is extremely reductive. > > > > > > Check the archives. > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor > use > > it? > > > > > >KP > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > > > > > >R. Pauley > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Karey L. Perkins > [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had > originally > > said this, or Percy > > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I > === message truncated ===> -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From PARLINS at culver.org Thu Mar 6 13:46:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from exchangeserver.culver.org (mail.culver.org [67.38.138.133]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDCA20013 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by exchangeserver.culver.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:41:53 -0500 Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DEB at exchangeserver.culver.org> From: "Parlin, Steven" To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:41:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:46:07 -0000 Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too. Something like..."Humans are sentimental and violent; or rather, sentimental therefore violoent. I suspect he meant that our tendency toward violence is not due to a focused ideological rage or fury but something much less interesting --banality. Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity that masquerades not just as reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, a sort of banal utopic uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case that when a man's (or woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even destroyed, either internally or externally, the violence of his response is magnified in direct disproportion to the distance the vision was away from reality. Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe its the dissapointment that drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own relationships. Once, after hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual wedding day, I remarked on the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was setting up an unlikely scenario. Her response was vituperative and cutting). Sound right? SP -----Original Message----- From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." But there was much tenderness in the forced labor camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness. there is tenderness all over. jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc. just like to read Percy and O'connor.) --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > I don't know -- except that the quote came from her > originally, as Allen and > Robert said. > > The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn" > reads... > > "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by > tenderness. It is > tenderness which, long since cut off from the person > of Christ, is wrapped > in theory. When tenderness is detached from the > source of tenderness, its > logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in > forced labor camps and > in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and > Manners). > > Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same > thing. > > KP > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Wesson > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? > jim w > > > --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > > Marcus, > > > > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan > > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- > > rejection of human > > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's > > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, > > secular humanism preaches > > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > > man]... that cannot be laid to > > the influence of Western civilization." > > > > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not > just > > of fundamentalist > > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific > > inquiry (for the latter to > > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is > > subject to this or that > > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history > of > > the Weimar doctors is > > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The > nihilism > > of some scientists in > > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the > > consequent devaluation of the > > individual human life lead straight to the gas > > chamber" (p. 396, > > Signposts). > > > > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > > "theorist-consumer" which I think > > relates to this as well...especially the > "theorist" > > part -- which is not > > concerned about the particular individual. I > think > > it also relates to > > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > > had, which is concerned about the creation of > > perfect society at the expense > > of the individual. > > > > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a > > reductive way of viewing the > > situation. It seems more like this: If you are > > sentimentally attached to > > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the > > expense of true empathy and > > compassion for the particular individual before > > you....well, "to the gas > > chamber." > > > > Which is why God came to us as a particular > > individual. > > > > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time > > swallowing some of the > > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a > patriot > > or not for my country, > > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" > > and seems dangerous -- in > > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. > > It can become idoloatry > > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision > > commitments at the expense > > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to > > and sentiment for country > > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- > that > > IS idolatry. > > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the > > middle-easterner, now; the > > Jew then) because they are not "American" or > > "Christian" is idolatry and > > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for > YOUR > > "side" or theory or > > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to > do > > if these people are > > "theories" but once they are real people, it's > > impossible (or more > > difficult) to do. > > > > When God is first, we are all one before Him. > > > > Karey > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: marcus at loyno.edu > > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > Is the list discussing the remark that > > sentimentality leads to the gas > > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) > > > > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and > > maybe these discussions > > are still available. > > > > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just > > sentimentality that led > > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to > > be where the quote took > > the discussions. There was (and is) also > > anti-semitism which doesn't > > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of > the > > holocaust, as everyone > > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. > > The focus only on > > sentimentality is extremely reductive. > > > > > > Check the archives. > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor > use > > it? > > > > > >KP > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > > > > > >R. Pauley > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Karey L. Perkins > [mailto:karey at charter.net] > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had > originally > > said this, or Percy > > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I > === message truncated ===> -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From marcus at loyno.edu Thu Mar 6 16:05:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from loyno.edu (nadal.loyno.edu [141.164.24.217]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FEF20013 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from loyno.edu (neo1 [141.164.24.217]) by loyno.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h26L6qAU843866; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:06:52 -0600 From: marcus at loyno.edu Sender: marcus at loyno.edu To: PARLINS at culver.org, percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:06:52 -0600 Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8c, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <3e67b86c.2aa0fa.0 at loyno.edu> X-User-Info: 68.14.113.135 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: marcus at loyno.edu, "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:05:32 -0000 Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90% of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass murder? Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday. Marcus Smith > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too. > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and violent; or rather, sentimental >therefore violoent. > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward violence is not due to a focused >ideological rage or fury but something much less interesting --banality. >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity that masquerades not just as >reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, a sort of banal utopic >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case that when a man's (or >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even destroyed, either >internally or externally, the violence of his response is magnified in >direct disproportion to the distance the vision was away from reality. >Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe its the dissapointment that >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own relationships. Once, after >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual wedding day, I remarked on >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was setting up an unlikely >scenario. Her response was vituperative and cutting). > >Sound right? > >SP > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced labor >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness. >there is tenderness all over. > jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc. > just like to read Percy and O'connor.) > > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: >> I don't know -- except that the quote came from her >> originally, as Allen and >> Robert said. >> >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn" >> reads... >> >> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by >> tenderness. It is >> tenderness which, long since cut off from the person >> of Christ, is wrapped >> in theory. When tenderness is detached from the >> source of tenderness, its >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in >> forced labor camps and >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and >> Manners). >> >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same >> thing. >> >> KP >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jim Wesson >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >> >> >> >> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? >> jim w >> >> >> --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: >> > Marcus, >> > >> > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan >> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden >> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- >> > rejection of human >> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's >> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma >> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, >> > secular humanism preaches >> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in >> > man]... that cannot be laid to >> > the influence of Western civilization." >> > >> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not >> just >> > of fundamentalist >> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific >> > inquiry (for the latter to >> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is >> > subject to this or that >> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history >> of >> > the Weimar doctors is >> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The >> nihilism >> > of some scientists in >> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the >> > consequent devaluation of the >> > individual human life lead straight to the gas >> > chamber" (p. 396, >> > Signposts). >> > >> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the >> > "theorist-consumer" which I think >> > relates to this as well...especially the >> "theorist" >> > part -- which is not >> > concerned about the particular individual. I >> think >> > it also relates to >> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to >> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler >> > had, which is concerned about the creation of >> > perfect society at the expense >> > of the individual. >> > >> > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a >> > reductive way of viewing the >> > situation. It seems more like this: If you are >> > sentimentally attached to >> > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the >> > expense of true empathy and >> > compassion for the particular individual before >> > you....well, "to the gas >> > chamber." >> > >> > Which is why God came to us as a particular >> > individual. >> > >> > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time >> > swallowing some of the >> > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a >> patriot >> > or not for my country, >> > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" >> > and seems dangerous -- in >> > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. >> > It can become idoloatry >> > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision >> > commitments at the expense >> > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to >> > and sentiment for country >> > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- >> that >> > IS idolatry. >> > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the >> > middle-easterner, now; the >> > Jew then) because they are not "American" or >> > "Christian" is idolatry and >> > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for >> YOUR >> > "side" or theory or >> > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to >> do >> > if these people are >> > "theories" but once they are real people, it's >> > impossible (or more >> > difficult) to do. >> > >> > When God is first, we are all one before Him. >> > >> > Karey >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: marcus at loyno.edu >> > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >> > >> > >> > Is the list discussing the remark that >> > sentimentality leads to the gas >> > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) >> > >> > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and >> > maybe these discussions >> > are still available. >> > >> > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just >> > sentimentality that led >> > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to >> > be where the quote took >> > the discussions. There was (and is) also >> > anti-semitism which doesn't >> > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of >> the >> > holocaust, as everyone >> > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. >> > The focus only on >> > sentimentality is extremely reductive. >> > >> > >> > Check the archives. >> > >> > Marcus Smith >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor >> use >> > it? >> > > >> > >KP >> > > >> > > >> > >----- Original Message ----- >> > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com >> > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM >> > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >> > > >> > > >> > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. >> > > >> > >R. Pauley >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Karey L. Perkins >> [mailto:karey at charter.net] >> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM >> > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." >> > > >> > > >> > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had >> originally >> > said this, or Percy >> > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I >> >=== message truncated ===> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >From piat1 at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 6 16:14:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imf23bis.bellsouth.net (mail225.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.195]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3036920026 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from D68RS511 ([68.155.232.212]) by imf23bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.25 201-253-122-122-125-20020815) with SMTP id <20030306211744.YMGE29933.imf23bis.bellsouth.net at D68RS511> for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:17:44 -0500 Message-ID: <010501c2e425$8f02e650$0101a8c0 at D68RS511> From: "James Piat" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <3e67674e.c420ce.0 at loyno.edu> <00d601c2e3fb$fb8c0830$0301000a at AFAC955012> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:15:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:14:19 -0000 > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just of fundamentalist > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific inquiry (for the latter to > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is subject to this or that > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history of the Weimar doctors is > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The nihilism of some scientists in > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the consequent devaluation of the > individual human life lead straight to the gas chamber" (p. 396, > Signposts). Dear Karey, Folks-- I think Percy and O'Connor both wish to also make the point that ethics can not rest on man's sentiments or feelings alone but must also be rooted in some moral absolute such as the ten commandments, Catholicism or the like. But how does one choose between one's religious beliefs and one religious theories. > In an earlier essay he spoke of the "theorist-consumer" which I think > relates to this as well...especially the "theorist" part -- which is not > concerned about the particular individual. I think it also relates to > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to "utopian" visions, which Hitler > had, which is concerned about the creation of perfect society at the expense > of the individual. Yes this point too. Best wishes, Jim Piat From dabeck at iupui.edu Thu Mar 6 16:34:56 2003 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:34:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <3e67b86c.2aa0fa.0@loyno.edu> Message-ID: The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. -DB On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote: > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90% > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass > murder? > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday. > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too. > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and violent; or rather, > sentimental > >therefore violoent. > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward violence is not due to a > focused > >ideological rage or fury but something much less interesting --banality. > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity that masquerades not just > as > >reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, a sort of banal utopic > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case that when a man's (or > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even destroyed, either > >internally or externally, the violence of his response is magnified in > >direct disproportion to the distance the vision was away from reality. > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe its the dissapointment > that > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own relationships. Once, after > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual wedding day, I remarked on > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was setting up an unlikely > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and cutting). > > > >Sound right? > > > >SP > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced labor > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness. > >there is tenderness all over. > > jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc. > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.) > > > > > > > > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came from her > >> originally, as Allen and > >> Robert said. > >> > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn" > >> reads... > >> > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by > >> tenderness. It is > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from the person > >> of Christ, is wrapped > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached from the > >> source of tenderness, its > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in > >> forced labor camps and > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and > >> Manners). > >> > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same > >> thing. > >> > >> KP > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Jim Wesson > >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > >> > >> > >> > >> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this? > >> jim w > >> > >> > >> --- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > >> > Marcus, > >> > > >> > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan > >> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > >> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 -- > >> > rejection of human > >> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's > >> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > >> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is, > >> > secular humanism preaches > >> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > >> > man]... that cannot be laid to > >> > the influence of Western civilization." > >> > > >> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not > >> just > >> > of fundamentalist > >> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific > >> > inquiry (for the latter to > >> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is > >> > subject to this or that > >> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history > >> of > >> > the Weimar doctors is > >> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The > >> nihilism > >> > of some scientists in > >> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the > >> > consequent devaluation of the > >> > individual human life lead straight to the gas > >> > chamber" (p. 396, > >> > Signposts). > >> > > >> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > >> > "theorist-consumer" which I think > >> > relates to this as well...especially the > >> "theorist" > >> > part -- which is not > >> > concerned about the particular individual. I > >> think > >> > it also relates to > >> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > >> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > >> > had, which is concerned about the creation of > >> > perfect society at the expense > >> > of the individual. > >> > > >> > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a > >> > reductive way of viewing the > >> > situation. It seems more like this: If you are > >> > sentimentally attached to > >> > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the > >> > expense of true empathy and > >> > compassion for the particular individual before > >> > you....well, "to the gas > >> > chamber." > >> > > >> > Which is why God came to us as a particular > >> > individual. > >> > > >> > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time > >> > swallowing some of the > >> > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a > >> patriot > >> > or not for my country, > >> > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality" > >> > and seems dangerous -- in > >> > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling. > >> > It can become idoloatry > >> > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision > >> > commitments at the expense > >> > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to > >> > and sentiment for country > >> > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) -- > >> that > >> > IS idolatry. > >> > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the > >> > middle-easterner, now; the > >> > Jew then) because they are not "American" or > >> > "Christian" is idolatry and > >> > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for > >> YOUR > >> > "side" or theory or > >> > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to > >> do > >> > if these people are > >> > "theories" but once they are real people, it's > >> > impossible (or more > >> > difficult) to do. > >> > > >> > When God is first, we are all one before Him. > >> > > >> > Karey > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: marcus at loyno.edu > >> > To: karey at charter.net ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > >> > > >> > > >> > Is the list discussing the remark that > >> > sentimentality leads to the gas > >> > chambers? (I'm coming in late.) > >> > > >> > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and > >> > maybe these discussions > >> > are still available. > >> > > >> > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just > >> > sentimentality that led > >> > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to > >> > be where the quote took > >> > the discussions. There was (and is) also > >> > anti-semitism which doesn't > >> > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of > >> the > >> > holocaust, as everyone > >> > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject. > >> > The focus only on > >> > sentimentality is extremely reductive. > >> > > >> > > >> > Check the archives. > >> > > >> > Marcus Smith > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor > >> use > >> > it? > >> > > > >> > >KP > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >----- Original Message ----- > >> > >From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > >> > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM > >> > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor. > >> > > > >> > >R. Pauley > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Karey L. Perkins > >> [mailto:karey at charter.net] > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM > >> > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had > >> originally > >> > said this, or Percy > >> > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I > >> > >=== message truncated ===> -- > >> > >> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >> > >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >> > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >-- > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > David Beck From armstron at ohiou.edu Thu Mar 6 16:59:02 2003 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:59:02 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <3e67b86c.2aa0fa.0@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030306164853.01d8b610@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Having just emerged from the greeting card section of a local shop, in search of a "sympathy" card, it does seem that prepackaged sentiments are the order of the day. I like your observation about buying our way out of the post 9/11 reality. Why is "shop and spend" our counter? Why not "attend your local place of worship" (I don't think that would have caused a problem with the establishment clause). At any rate, the call to shop didn't ring true. Ken Armstrong At 03:06 PM 3/6/2003 -0600, Marcus Smith wrote: >Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90% >of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed >"sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > >If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our >way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass >murder? > >Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday. > >Marcus Smith From piat1 at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 6 17:15:35 2003 From: piat1 at bellsouth.net (James Piat) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:15:35 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: Message-ID: <011401c2e42d$e928ed70$0101a8c0@D68RS511> > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. > -DB Well I'll take the kitsch of a shopping mall over the sentimental nostalgia of another good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade any day. First the Arabs in the middle ages, then the Hebrews in WWII and now it's back to the Arabs again. That's the trouble I have with Percy and O'Connor's example of the holocaust as an argument for Christianity or moral absolutism -- it's not only ironic and in poor taste to say the least -- it's a shell game. The problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls, Arabs, Jews or even Christian anti-Semitism -- it's us: or in my case, me, always blaming the other in the hope that this somehow absolves, protects or elevates myself. Best wishes, Jim Piat From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 17:57:48 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 14:57:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] ".. spend and shop,indeed! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030306164853.01d8b610@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: <20030306225748.2010.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com> many people are not on fixed salaries etc and things have become very, very difficult since 9-11 spend and shop -- along with 'please travel' are efforts to help the many hurting businesses. here in williamsburg va,unbelieveably, i have not had any guests at my 'bed and breakfast' so far this year. i am very far behind in my reservations. i hope for more "shop and spend'campaigns.i and lots of others need help.poor nyc is being devastated. the combination of 9-11,the sniper,and fear and uncertainty about war are just having terrible effects on the buisness ans service industries. i hope people'shop,spend and travel' when possible. respectfully, jim wesson --- Ken Armstrong wrote: > Having just emerged from the greeting card section > of a local shop, in > search of a "sympathy" card, it does seem that > prepackaged sentiments are > the order of the day. I like your observation about > buying our way out of > the post 9/11 reality. Why is "shop and spend" our > counter? Why not "attend > your local place of worship" (I don't think that > would have caused a > problem with the establishment clause). At any rate, > the call to shop > didn't ring true. > > Ken Armstrong > > At 03:06 PM 3/6/2003 -0600, Marcus Smith wrote: > >Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any > shopping mall that 90% > >of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is > congealed > >"sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > > >If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our > leaders to try to buy our > >way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their > (our?) preparations for mass > >murder? > > > >Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash > Wednesday. > > > >Marcus Smith > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 18:00:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from web10807.mail.yahoo.com (web10807.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.249]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D6C6E20024 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:00:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20030306230150.97650.qmail at web10807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.208.187.155] by web10807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:01:50 PST Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Wesson Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jim at AutumnLeavesBandB.com, "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 23:00:24 -0000 lord, many things worse than malls. really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they? jim --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through > my mind: kitsch and > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. > -DB > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote: > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any > shopping mall that 90% > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is > congealed > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our > leaders to try to buy our > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their > (our?) preparations for mass > > murder? > > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash > Wednesday. > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too. > > > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and > violent; or rather, > > sentimental > > >therefore violoent. > > > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward > violence is not due to a > > focused > > >ideological rage or fury but something much less > interesting --banality. > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity > that masquerades not just > > as > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, > a sort of banal utopic > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case > that when a man's (or > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even > destroyed, either > > >internally or externally, the violence of his > response is magnified in > > >direct disproportion to the distance the vision > was away from reality. > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe > its the dissapointment > > that > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own > relationships. Once, after > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual > wedding day, I remarked on > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was > setting up an unlikely > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and > cutting). > > > > > >Sound right? > > > > > >SP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > > > > > > > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced > labor > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness. > > >there is tenderness all over. > > > jim w.( can not back this up philosophically > etc. > > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came from > her > > >> originally, as Allen and > > >> Robert said. > > >> > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for > MaryAnn" > > >> reads... > > >> > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by > > >> tenderness. It is > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from the > person > > >> of Christ, is wrapped > > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached from > the > > >> source of tenderness, its > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It > ends in > > >> forced labor camps and > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 > Mystery and > > >> Manners). > > >> > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the > same > > >> thing. > > >> > > >> KP > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: Jim Wesson > > >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas > chamber..." > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all > this? > > >> jim w > > >> > > >> > > >> --- "Karey L. Perkins" > wrote: > > >> > Marcus, > > >> > > > >> > Percy is speaking in this interview with > Zoltan > > >> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden > > >> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 > -- > > >> > rejection of human > > >> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of > man's > > >> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma > > >> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). > That is, > > >> > secular humanism preaches > > >> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in > > >> > man]... that cannot be laid to > > >> > the influence of Western civilization." > > >> > > > >> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, > not > > >> just > > >> > of fundamentalist > > >> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and > scientific > > >> > inquiry (for the latter to > > >> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if > it is > > >> > subject to this or that > > >> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the > history > > >> of > > >> > the Weimar doctors is > > >> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The > > >> nihilism > > >> > of some scientists in > > >> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and > the > > >> > consequent devaluation of the > > >> > individual human life lead straight to the > gas > > >> > chamber" (p. 396, > > >> > Signposts). > > >> > > > >> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the > > >> > "theorist-consumer" which I think > > >> > relates to this as well...especially the > > >> "theorist" > > >> > part -- which is not > > >> > concerned about the particular individual. I > > >> think > > >> > it also relates to > > >> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to > > >> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler > > >> > had, which is concerned about the creation of > > >> > perfect society at the expense > > >> > of the individual. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 18:02:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net (dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.13]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DC920024 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.186.149.176] (HELO AFAC955012) by dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with SMTP id 98934421 for percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:04:14 -0500 Message-ID: <006301c2e434$618c4450$0301000a at AFAC955012> From: "Karey L. Perkins" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030306164853.01d8b610 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:01:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01C2E40A.78854140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 23:02:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C2E40A.78854140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strikes me all as sort of "Brave New World"-ish -- behaviorist training of the children through shock therapy to hate flowers/nature (because they are free) and to like complicated games with lots of gadgets (because one had to "consume" -- buy -- them, thus helping the economy). This is like Percy's "theorist-consumer" -- and we are back "to the gas chambers" which at its core is the sacrifice of sacredness the individual for the well-being of smoothly functioning society. Marcel's functional man vs. ontological man. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Armstrong To: marcus at loyno.edu ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Having just emerged from the greeting card section of a local shop, in search of a "sympathy" card, it does seem that prepackaged sentiments are the order of the day. I like your observation about buying our way out of the post 9/11 reality. Why is "shop and spend" our counter? Why not "attend your local place of worship" (I don't think that would have caused a problem with the establishment clause). At any rate, the call to shop didn't ring true. Ken Armstrong At 03:06 PM 3/6/2003 -0600, Marcus Smith wrote: >Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90% >of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed >"sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > >If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our >way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass >murder? > >Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday. > >Marcus Smith -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C2E40A.78854140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Strikes me all as sort of "Brave New = World"-ish --=20 behaviorist training of the children through shock therapy to hate=20 flowers/nature (because they are free) and to like complicated games = with lots=20 of gadgets (because one had to "consume" -- buy -- them, thus = helping the=20 economy).  This is like Percy's "theorist-consumer"  -- and we = are=20 back "to the gas chambers" which at its core is the sacrifice of = sacredness the=20 individual for the well-being of smoothly functioning = society. =20 Marcel's functional man vs. ontological man.
 
KP
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ken = Armstrong=20
To: marcus at loyno.edu ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org =
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas = chamber..."

Having just emerged from the greeting card section of a = local=20 shop, in
search of a "sympathy" card, it does seem that prepackaged=20 sentiments are
the order of the day. I like your observation about = buying=20 our way out of
the post 9/11 reality. Why is "shop and spend" our = counter?=20 Why not "attend
your local place of worship" (I don't think that = would have=20 caused a
problem with the establishment clause). At any rate, the = call to=20 shop
didn't ring true.

Ken Armstrong

At 03:06 PM = 3/6/2003=20 -0600, Marcus Smith wrote:
>Does anyone share with me the feeling = I get in=20 any shopping mall that 90%
>of what is offered in most shops and = boutiques=20 is congealed
>"sentimentality" (aka "cute")?
>
>If so, = is this=20 tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our
>way = out of=20 post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for=20 mass
>murder?
>
>Fearful trembling in New Orleans one = day=20 after Ash Wednesday.
>
>Marcus Smith

--

An = archive of=20 all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/w= percy/hypermail

Visit=20 the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C2E40A.78854140-- From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 18:05:02 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:05:02 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030306164853.01d8b610@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> <006301c2e434$618c4450$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <007e01c2e434$d19dd790$0301000a@AFAC955012> Perhaps more directly related: Marcel's "being" vs. "having"... KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Karey L. Perkins To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Strikes me all as sort of "Brave New World"-ish -- behaviorist training of the children through shock therapy to hate flowers/nature (because they are free) and to like complicated games with lots of gadgets (because one had to "consume" -- buy -- them, thus helping the economy). This is like Percy's "theorist-consumer" -- and we are back "to the gas chambers" which at its core is the sacrifice of sacredness the individual for the well-being of smoothly functioning society. Marcel's functional man vs. ontological man. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Armstrong To: marcus at loyno.edu ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Having just emerged from the greeting card section of a local shop, in search of a "sympathy" card, it does seem that prepackaged sentiments are the order of the day. I like your observation about buying our way out of the post 9/11 reality. Why is "shop and spend" our counter? Why not "attend your local place of worship" (I don't think that would have caused a problem with the establishment clause). At any rate, the call to shop didn't ring true. Ken Armstrong At 03:06 PM 3/6/2003 -0600, Marcus Smith wrote: >Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90% >of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed >"sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > >If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our >way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass >murder? > >Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday. > >Marcus Smith -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tpmonaghan at aol.com Thu Mar 6 18:24:27 2003 From: Tpmonaghan at aol.com (Tpmonaghan at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:24:27 EST Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..." Message-ID: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab@aol.com> If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he stop. I mean after all, is that too much to ask. Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt for, should likewise stop their misbehaving. From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" absolves me or protects me or elevates me. The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves from dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would deliver it, and that is a question. However, pondering one's vague politically correct "sins" is not the answer. Such action will elevate one in certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank sentimentalism that will result in a higher body count for everyone. Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the answer, there is no problem. In fact, there isn't even a question. Let's show a little genuine charity to the shoppers. I realize shoppers are not postmodern, deconstructionists and not driven to a murderous rage by the Andalusian catastrophe and therefore not proper subjects for our compassion, but such charity should be easy enough out of laziness, if not virtue. Dr. Johnson observed that men were seldom more innocently employed than when simply making money and shoppers are part of that equation. Similarly, had Shelley had to get and spend, he might not have wreaked such havoc and misery on all around him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at charter.net Thu Mar 6 18:35:52 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..." References: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab@aol.com> Message-ID: <00df01c2e439$2222a5c0$0301000a@AFAC955012> >>>>"Dr. Johnson observed that men were seldom more innocently employed than when simply making money and shoppers are part of that equation. Similarly, had Shelley had to get and spend, he might not have wreaked such havoc and misery on all around him." <<< Angelism (shelley) vs. bestialism (shoppers) -- (from "Love in the Ruins"). Neither are the answer. But you're right -- Shelley could have used a little shopping (bestialism) to balance his extremism. >>>>>>"The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves from dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would deliver it, and that is a question. However, pondering one's vague politically correct "sins" is not the answer." <<<<< Certainly, defending one's life, and any time when one's life is in danger, pulls us quite quickly out of our distractions, of that "angelism," and grounds us in our real concerns (life and death) -- which is why Dr. Thomas More in LR had his angelism-besotted patient walk home through the swamp. Nothing wrong with shopping. It's when shopping becomes the answer and the replacement for God, for faith, that it becomes a problem. Like Marcel's discussion of technology, et al -- it is not the object or activity itself in which lies the sin; it is man's [mis]use of that. I think America in general relies too much on shopping and too little on God. Just a generalization and there are many exceptions of course. KP From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 20:17:07 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:17:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307011707.53309.qmail@web10803.mail.yahoo.com> david, thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have noticed ,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that we often make the most sense. or at least i do . life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i came up with was to change my reading group from Faulkner to p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision. peace to all, jim i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. both can be read on a light level also,and that's what i have to do. they are the most to say the least! --- David Alan Beck wrote: > Jim, > I think you are missing the point. If you look at > malls, pop culture in > general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic > attractions--in the Kierkegaardian > sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer for > where WE are. Bailie's > comment I think stands. What is particularly > dangerous is not what is > obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what lulls > us to sleep by its > "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized > environment--to me, that is > closer to Percy's use of despair than the more > obvious, sensational event > like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and > Bailie) symbolic with what > is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing, > seductive, and meaningless. > Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no > introspection, no search is > necessary. It's all here, self-contained. > Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of being > and having is right on > target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall > included--but if we are > seduced (and I often am)into thinking that "having" > is being or even a way > to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, if > the mall is part of our > search, then that's ok, as long as we see that the > true beauty and mystery > lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, etc. In > other words, I'm not > making the sacred/profane distiction; the mystery is > everywhere, making > the search possible no matter where we are.) > I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense? > -David > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote: > > > lord, many things worse than malls. > > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they? > > > > jim > > --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > > > > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go > through > > > my mind: kitsch and > > > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go > > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > > > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. > > > -DB > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in > any > > > shopping mall that 90% > > > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques > is > > > congealed > > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > > > > > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by > our > > > leaders to try to buy our > > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their > > > (our?) preparations for mass > > > > murder? > > > > > > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after > Ash > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, > too. > > > > > > > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and > > > violent; or rather, > > > > sentimental > > > > >therefore violoent. > > > > > > > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward > > > violence is not due to a > > > > focused > > > > >ideological rage or fury but something much > less > > > interesting --banality. > > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike > insanity > > > that masquerades not just > > > > as > > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on > reality, > > > a sort of banal utopic > > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the > case > > > that when a man's (or > > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or > even > > > destroyed, either > > > > >internally or externally, the violence of his > > > response is magnified in > > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the > vision > > > was away from reality. > > > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered. > Maybe > > > its the dissapointment > > > > that > > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own > > > relationships. Once, after > > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her > eventual > > > wedding day, I remarked on > > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she > was > > > setting up an unlikely > > > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and > > > cutting). > > > > > > > > > >Sound right? > > > > > > > > > >SP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >From: Jim Wesson > [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > > Discussion > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas > chamber..." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced > > > labor > > > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much > tenderness. > > > > >there is tenderness all over. > > > > > jim w.( can not back this up > philosophically > > > etc. > > > > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" > wrote: > > > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came > from > > > her > > > > >> originally, as Allen and > > > > >> Robert said. > > > > >> > > > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for > > > MaryAnn" > > > > >> reads... > > > > >> > > > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we > govern by > > > > >> tenderness. It is > > > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from > the > > > person > > > > >> of Christ, is wrapped > > > > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached > from > > > the > > > > >> source of tenderness, its > > > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It > > > ends in > > > > >> forced labor camps and > > > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 > > > Mystery and > > > > >> Manners). > > > > >> > > > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying > the > > > same > > > > >> thing. > > > > >> > > > > >> KP > > > > >> > > > > >> > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From piat1 at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 6 20:35:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imf16bis.bellsouth.net (mail116.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.56]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE772006A for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from D68RS511 ([67.33.142.59]) by imf16bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.25 201-253-122-122-125-20020815) with SMTP id <20030307013916.CEAV7847.imf16bis.bellsouth.net at D68RS511> for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:39:16 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c2e44a$13e96190$0101a8c0 at D68RS511> From: "James Piat" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab at aol.com> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..." Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:30:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0161_01C2E41F.45311980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:35:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0161_01C2E41F.45311980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 From: Tpmonaghan at aol.com=20 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org=20 Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:24 PM Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping = malls..." If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he stop. I mean after = all, is that too much to ask. >> Ha, but that it were that easy. But I take your point my good = fellow. "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of = passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us in the Second Coming.>> =20 Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt for, should = likewise stop their misbehaving. >> So, on this we agree? (one small quibble though -- I don't = assume guilt for any but myself)>> From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" absolves = me or protects me or elevates me.=20 >> Well in the larger sense it doesn't work from my perspective = either, but alas, I'm a slow learner. I find confession good for my = soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming and posturing = than confessing.>>=20 The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves from = dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would = deliver it, and that is a question. However, pondering one's vague = politically correct "sins" is not the answer. Such action will elevate = one in certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank = sentimentalism that will result in a higher body count for everyone. >> I agree we are all in danger, but the dilema I was trying to = wrestle with is how to do protect ourselves while at the same time = taking seriously the notions of "do no evil" and "turn the other cheek", = and "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". As you noticed, blaming, = posturing and expressing my sentiments come easy to me. Understanding = and following the teaching of Jesus is the part I find difficult. One = side of me says I'm right -- another I'm wrong.>>=20 Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is = permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the = answer, there is no problem. In fact, there isn't even a question. >> Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is that maybe our = interpretation of absolutes is relative to our circumstances. Can we = presume to truly understand the motivation of another whose = circumstances we do not share? Is there truly only one correct = interpretation of God's word? No room for disagreement among God = fearing folks? Seems to me such a views fails both of Percy tests -- = individual souls can not be encompassed by theoretical universals nor = are one's individual sentiments a trustworthy test of truth.>> Thanks for your comments -- I hope you are right. =20 Best wishes, Jim Piat ------=_NextPart_000_0161_01C2E41F.45311980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
From:=20 Tpmonaghan at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 = 6:24=20 PM
Subject: [percy-l] "...problem = is not=20 moral relativism, shopping malls..."
 
If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he=20 stop.  I mean after all, is that too much to ask.
 
>>  Ha,  but that it were that easy.  = But I=20 take your point my good fellow.   "The best lack all = conviction,=20 while the worst are full of passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us = in the=20 Second Coming.>> 
 
 
  Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt = for, should=20 likewise stop their misbehaving.
 
>>  So, on this we agree?  (one small quibble=20 though  -- I don't assume guilt for any but myself)>>
 
  From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" = absolves me or protects me or elevates me.
>>  Well in the larger sense it doesn't work from = my=20 perspective either, but alas, I'm a slow learner.  I find = confession good=20 for my soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming=20 and posturing than confessing.>>

The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves = from=20 dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would = deliver=20 it, and that is a question.  However, pondering one's vague = politically=20 correct "sins" is not the answer.  Such action will elevate one = in=20 certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank = sentimentalism that=20 will result in a higher body count for everyone.

>>  = I agree=20 we are all in danger, but the dilema  I was trying to=20 wrestle with is how to do protect ourselves while = at the=20 same time taking seriously the notions of "do no evil" and "turn = the=20 other cheek", and "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".  As = you=20 noticed, blaming, posturing and expressing my sentiments come = easy to=20 me.  Understanding and following the teaching of Jesus is the = part I find=20 difficult. One side of me says I'm right  -- another I'm = wrong.>>=20
 
Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is=20 permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the = answer,=20 there is no problem.  In fact, there isn't even a question.
 
>>  Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is = that=20 maybe our interpretation of absolutes is relative to our=20 circumstances.  Can we presume to truly understand the = motivation of=20 another whose circumstances we do not share?  Is there truly only = one=20 correct interpretation of God's word?  No room for disagreement = among God=20 fearing folks?  Seems to me such a views fails both of Percy = tests  -- individual souls can not = be encompassed by=20 theoretical universals nor are one's individual=20 sentiments a trustworthy test of truth.>>
 
Thanks for your comments  -- I hope you are right.   =
 
Best wishes,
Jim Piat

 
------=_NextPart_000_0161_01C2E41F.45311980-- From PARLINS at culver.org Thu Mar 6 20:46:30 2003 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:46:30 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DEE@exchangeserver.culver.org> Jim, if your "good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade" is a reference to the USA's escalating war-in-Iraq preparations, your comment is not only inappropriate -polemical?- but, well, a revelation of just the sort of frightful ignorance that makes such murderous action possible in the first place. Why? You quite simply fail to see that its not Christians preparing for war, but consumer-driven secularists who may or may not be slinking around behind a Christian veneer. Subsequently, your sort of rhetoric blurs otherwise clear distinctions and fails to accurately identify the true forces at work. It ain't the Christians. And, your rhetoric only serves to fuel malicious animosity toward that which may well be the only bastian of hope and sanity --Christ. Percy certainly thought so. Anyone who ever has perpetrated such crimes against humanity are by that very action NOT Christian. And, if you were simply making a generalization about the ostensibly "christianized" West (ie. the US), I reiterate my point about ignorance. Don't make such generalizations, for they are dangerous misunderstandings which not only free the true culprits from their culpability, but they also implicate the innocent, and in this case even the advocate. No authentic christian has ever knowingly sanctioned murder, else they weren't really Christian and thus cannot rightly be identified as such. People don't hate what they know to be Chrstianity, but they do hate misrepresenations of it --and your rhetoric is a grave misrepresentation. Moreover, you might also avoid generalizations that declare the Hebrews or the Arabs as "victims". Consult the account of Hanah Arendt (a jewish reporter) of the trial of Adolf Eichmann --Eichmann in Jerusalem; the Banality of Evil. There are no manichean forces at work in such crimes. Instead, evil cuts right through the heart of every man (Solzenhitzen) and it's our "sentimentality", our inclination toward self-fulfilling fantasy, not our faith that permits that evil to thrive. The truth is Eichmann was a dissapointment. He was not the monster everyone wanted him to be. Instead, he was a mouse of a man who had been lulled into a moral sleep by sentiment. Indeed, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the holocaust cannot be credited to men like Eichmann. No. That burden rests squarely on the shoulders of those jews who were complicitously (and in some cases quite agreeably) responsible for orchestrating the planning and organizing and book keeping. You make a concession in the end and assume some responsibility for your own participation in the problem, but that doesn't excuse your previous remarks. Avoid the sweeping generalizations. They're dangerous. I apologize to the list for any misdirection, but a rejoinder was in order. SP -----Original Message----- From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 at bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:16 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. > -DB Well I'll take the kitsch of a shopping mall over the sentimental nostalgia of another good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade any day. First the Arabs in the middle ages, then the Hebrews in WWII and now it's back to the Arabs again. That's the trouble I have with Percy and O'Connor's example of the holocaust as an argument for Christianity or moral absolutism -- it's not only ironic and in poor taste to say the least -- it's a shell game. The problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls, Arabs, Jews or even Christian anti-Semitism -- it's us: or in my case, me, always blaming the other in the hope that this somehow absolves, protects or elevates myself. Best wishes, Jim Piat -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From dabeck at iupui.edu Thu Mar 6 20:53:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from plounts.uits.indiana.edu (plounts.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.73]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDDA20054 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pearl.iupui.edu (pearl.iupui.edu [134.68.220.115]) h271sgww023192; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (dabeck at localhost)h271si09019187; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: pearl.iupui.edu: dabeck owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:44 -0500 (EST) From: David Alan Beck To: Jim at AutumnLeavesBandB.com Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <20030307011707.53309.qmail at web10803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:53:19 -0000 Jim, Actually, my class has been discussing the humor in Lancelot. I was droning on about Kierkegaard and Marcel, etc., when one student commented how funny the book is. And I'm glad she said that, because despite the murders, betrayals, adultry, etc. it is a funny, in a dark, sardonic way. (Of course, they just finished Joyce's The Dead and Conrad's Heart of Darkness; at this point, in their eyes, a blood-letting would give rise to chuckles and chortles.) I hope I don't open a can of worms here (or the wrath of the list), but if your reading group wants a lighter but interesting read, check out Franzen's The Corrections. I thought it was a great summer read (hey, and give the guy points for turning down Queen Oprah). -David On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote: > david, > thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have noticed > ,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that we > often make the most sense. or at least i do . > life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i came up > with was to change my reading group from Faulkner to > p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision. > peace to all, > jim > i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as > having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. both > can be read on a light level also,and that's what i > have to do. they are the most to say the least! > > > > > --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > Jim, > > I think you are missing the point. If you look at > > malls, pop culture in > > general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic > > attractions--in the Kierkegaardian > > sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer for > > where WE are. Bailie's > > comment I think stands. What is particularly > > dangerous is not what is > > obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what lulls > > us to sleep by its > > "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized > > environment--to me, that is > > closer to Percy's use of despair than the more > > obvious, sensational event > > like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and > > Bailie) symbolic with what > > is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing, > > seductive, and meaningless. > > Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no > > introspection, no search is > > necessary. It's all here, self-contained. > > Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of being > > and having is right on > > target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall > > included--but if we are > > seduced (and I often am)into thinking that "having" > > is being or even a way > > to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, if > > the mall is part of our > > search, then that's ok, as long as we see that the > > true beauty and mystery > > lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, etc. In > > other words, I'm not > > making the sacred/profane distiction; the mystery is > > everywhere, making > > the search possible no matter where we are.) > > I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense? > > -David > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote: > > > > > lord, many things worse than malls. > > > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they? > > > > > > jim > > > --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > > > > > > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go > > through > > > > my mind: kitsch and > > > > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go > > > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > > > > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. > > > > -DB > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote: > > > > > > > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in > > any > > > > shopping mall that 90% > > > > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques > > is > > > > congealed > > > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > > > > > > > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by > > our > > > > leaders to try to buy our > > > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their > > > > (our?) preparations for mass > > > > > murder? > > > > > > > > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after > > Ash > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and > > > > violent; or rather, > > > > > sentimental > > > > > >therefore violoent. > > > > > > > > > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward > > > > violence is not due to a > > > > > focused > > > > > >ideological rage or fury but something much > > less > > > > interesting --banality. > > > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike > > insanity > > > > that masquerades not just > > > > > as > > > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on > > reality, > > > > a sort of banal utopic > > > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the > > case > > > > that when a man's (or > > > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or > > even > > > > destroyed, either > > > > > >internally or externally, the violence of his > > > > response is magnified in > > > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the > > vision > > > > was away from reality. > > > > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered. > > Maybe > > > > its the dissapointment > > > > > that > > > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own > > > > relationships. Once, after > > > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her > > eventual > > > > wedding day, I remarked on > > > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she > > was > > > > setting up an unlikely > > > > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and > > > > cutting). > > > > > > > > > > > >Sound right? > > > > > > > > > > > >SP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > >From: Jim Wesson > > [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com] > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM > > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > > > Discussion > > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas > > chamber..." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced > > > > labor > > > > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much > > tenderness. > > > > > >there is tenderness all over. > > > > > > jim w.( can not back this up > > philosophically > > > > etc. > > > > > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" > > wrote: > > > > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came > > from > > > > her > > > > > >> originally, as Allen and > > > > > >> Robert said. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for > > > > MaryAnn" > > > > > >> reads... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we > > govern by > > > > > >> tenderness. It is > > > > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from > > the > > > > person > > > > > >> of Christ, is wrapped > > > > > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached > > from > > > > the > > > > > >> source of tenderness, its > > > > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It > > > > ends in > > > > > >> forced labor camps and > > > > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 > > > > Mystery and > > > > > >> Manners). > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying > > the > > > > same > > > > > >> thing. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> KP > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > === message truncated === > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > > David Beck From armstron at ohiou.edu Thu Mar 6 21:46:55 2003 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:46:55 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..." In-Reply-To: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab@aol.com> References: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab@aol.com> Message-ID: <1076426.1046987214@modem-203-030.dialnet.ohiou.edu> --On Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:24 PM -0500 Tpmonaghan at aol.com wrote: > Let's show a little genuine charity to the shoppers. I realize shoppers > are not postmodern, deconstructionists and not driven to a murderous rage > by the Andalusian catastrophe and therefore not proper subjects for our > compassion, but such charity should be easy enough out of laziness, if > not virtue. So who was shortchanging the shoppers? It was shopping as salvation that was being scrutinized. Let us, whether or not out of laziness or sloppy thinking, not confuse the issue. Ken Armstrong >From Tpmonaghan at aol.com Thu Mar 6 22:15:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97A120040 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from Tpmonaghan at aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.12c.24fdfc12 (4539) for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:16:59 -0500 (EST) From: Tpmonaghan at aol.com Message-ID: <12c.24fdfc12.2b99692b at aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:16:59 EST To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Subject: [percy-l] can we truly understand the motivation of another X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:15:33 -0000 Can we truly understand the motivation of another? No, probably not. But we can perceive their action and we can respond to that. We may respond wrongly, but we can see the act. When Genghis Khan is attacking us or getting ready to, we are not bound to just dither. Sorry about Genghis not having any toys when he was growing up, but if I sit back and allow him to vent his muderous rage, am I not actively at that point doing the murdering. Don't i owe it to him to fight, to try to stop him. I am more than willing to suggest we go shopping, but what if he just doesn't want to shop? Individual sentiments, particularly uninformed ones, may be dangerous, but we do have judgement, intellect and that we are duty bound to use. We can use that gift. Indeed, we are held responsible for using it. Strapping a bomb on yourself, getting on a school bus, proceeding to the center, and blowing yourself up with all the kids is wrong. People who pay for that kind of thing are off. Auschwitz is wrong at all times and period. The disagreements among us all are not just among God fearing folks, but with God hating folks, and God rebelling folks, and God fearing folks, and all fallen folks. With fear and trembling we proceed. I hope we all make it individually and corporately. Guess I should add redundantly to that last sentence. Anyway, peace. From armstron at ohiou.edu Thu Mar 6 22:21:26 2003 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 22:21:26 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DEE@exchangeserver.culver.org> References: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DEE@exchangeserver.culver. org> Message-ID: <3148081.1046989285@modem-203-030.dialnet.ohiou.edu> Steve, Thanks for your apology to the list for the post. Do you really think it needs one? The Jews (not those banal Nazis) are responsible for the "effectiveness" of the holocaust. Christians do no evil (for then they wouldn't be Christian), though "evil cuts right through the heart of every man." And criticizing Christians for the things they do, therefore, "fuels animosity" toward Christ. Actually I was half-tempted to agree that your umbrage with Jim for the Christian crusade remark might (might: take a look at the latest issue of First Things with its declaration of the "just war" about to commence)be justified, but your concept of who is and isn't a Christian....you might take your own advice and "avoid generalizations that declare" Christians incapable of evil acts. "Not me but thee" doesn't cure that heart condition. Ken Armstrong --On Thursday, March 06, 2003 8:46 PM -0500 "Parlin, Steven" wrote: > Jim, if your "good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade" is a reference to > the USA's escalating war-in-Iraq preparations, your comment is not only > inappropriate -polemical?- but, well, a revelation of just the sort of > frightful ignorance that makes such murderous action possible in the first > place. Why? You quite simply fail to see that its not Christians preparing > for war, but consumer-driven secularists who may or may not be slinking > around behind a Christian veneer. Subsequently, your sort of rhetoric > blurs otherwise clear distinctions and fails to accurately identify the > true forces at work. It ain't the Christians. And, your rhetoric only > serves to fuel malicious animosity toward that which may well be the only > bastian of hope and sanity --Christ. Percy certainly thought so. > > Anyone who ever has perpetrated such crimes against humanity are by that > very action NOT Christian. And, if you were simply making a generalization > about the ostensibly "christianized" West (ie. the US), I reiterate my > point about ignorance. Don't make such generalizations, for they are > dangerous misunderstandings which not only free the true culprits from > their culpability, but they also implicate the innocent, and in this case > even the advocate. No authentic christian has ever knowingly sanctioned > murder, else they weren't really Christian and thus cannot rightly be > identified as such. People don't hate what they know to be Chrstianity, > but they do hate misrepresenations of it --and your rhetoric is a grave > misrepresentation. > > Moreover, you might also avoid generalizations that declare the Hebrews or > the Arabs as "victims". Consult the account of Hanah Arendt (a jewish > reporter) of the trial of Adolf Eichmann --Eichmann in Jerusalem; the > Banality of Evil. There are no manichean forces at work in such crimes. > Instead, evil cuts right through the heart of every man (Solzenhitzen) and > it's our "sentimentality", our inclination toward self-fulfilling fantasy, > not our faith that permits that evil to thrive. The truth is Eichmann was > a dissapointment. He was not the monster everyone wanted him to be. Instead, he was a mouse of a man who had been lulled into a moral sleep > by sentiment. Indeed, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the > holocaust cannot be credited to men like Eichmann. No. That burden rests > squarely on the shoulders of those jews who were complicitously (and in > some cases quite agreeably) responsible for orchestrating the planning > and organizing and book keeping. > > You make a concession in the end and assume some responsibility for your > own participation in the problem, but that doesn't excuse your previous > remarks. Avoid the sweeping generalizations. They're dangerous. > > I apologize to the list for any misdirection, but a rejoinder was in > order. SP > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > >> >> The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and >> despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil >> Bailie refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. >> -DB > > Well I'll take the kitsch of a shopping mall over the sentimental > nostalgia of another good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade any day. > First the Arabs in the middle ages, then the Hebrews in WWII and now it's > back to the Arabs again. That's the trouble I have with Percy and > O'Connor's example of the holocaust as an argument for Christianity or > moral absolutism -- it's not only ironic and in poor taste to say the > least -- it's a shell game. The problem is not moral relativism, > shopping malls, Arabs, Jews or even Christian anti-Semitism -- it's us: > or in my case, me, always blaming the other in the hope that this > somehow absolves, protects or elevates myself. > > Best wishes, > Jim Piat > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 23:41:44 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:41:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030307044144.62680.qmail@web10806.mail.yahoo.com> thanks. i will look into 'the corrections,'and please go when you have time and enjoy pg wodehouse. jim --- David Alan Beck wrote: > Jim, > Actually, my class has been discussing the humor in > Lancelot. I was > droning on about Kierkegaard and Marcel, etc., when > one student commented > how funny the book is. And I'm glad she said that, > because despite the > murders, betrayals, adultry, etc. it is a funny, in > a dark, sardonic way. > (Of course, they just finished Joyce's The Dead and > Conrad's Heart of > Darkness; at this point, in their eyes, a > blood-letting would give rise to > chuckles and chortles.) > > I hope I don't open a can of worms here (or the > wrath of the list), but > if your reading group wants a lighter but > interesting read, check out > Franzen's The Corrections. I thought it was a great > summer read (hey, and > give the guy points for turning down Queen Oprah). > -David > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote: > > > david, > > thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have > noticed > > ,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that > we > > often make the most sense. or at least i do . > > life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i > came up > > with was to change my reading group from Faulkner > to > > p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision. > > peace to all, > > jim > > i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as > > having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. > both > > can be read on a light level also,and that's what > i > > have to do. they are the most to say the least! > > > > > > > > > > --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > > Jim, > > > I think you are missing the point. If you look > at > > > malls, pop culture in > > > general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic > > > attractions--in the Kierkegaardian > > > sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer > for > > > where WE are. Bailie's > > > comment I think stands. What is particularly > > > dangerous is not what is > > > obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what > lulls > > > us to sleep by its > > > "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized > > > environment--to me, that is > > > closer to Percy's use of despair than the more > > > obvious, sensational event > > > like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and > > > Bailie) symbolic with what > > > is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing, > > > seductive, and meaningless. > > > Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no > > > introspection, no search is > > > necessary. It's all here, self-contained. > > > Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of > being > > > and having is right on > > > target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall > > > included--but if we are > > > seduced (and I often am)into thinking that > "having" > > > is being or even a way > > > to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, > if > > > the mall is part of our > > > search, then that's ok, as long as we see that > the > > > true beauty and mystery > > > lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, > etc. In > > > other words, I'm not > > > making the sacred/profane distiction; the > mystery is > > > everywhere, making > > > the search possible no matter where we are.) > > > I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense? > > > -David > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote: > > > > > > > lord, many things worse than malls. > > > > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they? > > > > > > > > jim > > > > --- David Alan Beck wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go > > > through > > > > > my mind: kitsch and > > > > > despair (of course, kitsch and > sentimentality go > > > > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie > > > > > refers to shopping malls as museums of > nihilism. > > > > > -DB > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I > get in > > > any > > > > > shopping mall that 90% > > > > > > of what is offered in most shops and > boutiques > > > is > > > > > congealed > > > > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")? > > > > > > > > > > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations > by > > > our > > > > > leaders to try to buy our > > > > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore > their > > > > > (our?) preparations for mass > > > > > > murder? > > > > > > > > > > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day > after > > > Ash > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the > Cosmos, > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental > and > > > > > violent; or rather, > > > > > > sentimental > > > > > > >therefore violoent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency > toward > > > > > violence is not due to a > > > > > > focused > > > > > > >ideological rage or fury but something > much > > > less > > > > > interesting --banality. > > > > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike > > > insanity > > > > > that masquerades not just > > > > > > as > > > > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on > > > reality, > > > > > a sort of banal utopic > > > > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the > > > case > > > > > that when a man's (or > > > > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged > or > > > even > > > > > destroyed, either > > > > > > >internally or externally, the violence of > his > > > > > response is magnified in > > > > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the > > > vision > > > > > was away from reality. > > > > > > >Rather like having one's dreams > shattered. > > > Maybe > > > > > its the dissapointment > > > > > > that > > > > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my > own > > > > > relationships. Once, after > > > > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her > > > eventual > > > > > wedding day, I remarked on > > > > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that > she > > > was > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From Nikkibar at aol.com Fri Mar 7 00:04:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C6320006 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from Nikkibar at aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.104.29854ee4 (3964) for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: Nikkibar at aol.com Message-ID: <104.29854ee4.2b9982bd at aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:06:05 EST Subject: Re: [percy-l] aentiment and death To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_104.29854ee4.2b9982bd_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10637 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 05:04:44 -0000 --part1_104.29854ee4.2b9982bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends, Every time we get off on this romp, I wind up bewildered why we have it and wind up wondering just who is saying what? It occurs to me that the discussion might be clearer if we defined just what we mean by sentimentality both our own and Flannery O'Connor's and Walker's. For my own part, refusal to get involved with the issue is at the root of the reason that I don't have pets put down when they're terminal. Of course everybody thinks I'm a cruel son of a bitch for adopting this position. By the lights of this discussion, am I or not? And if so, why? And if not why not? Nikki --part1_104.29854ee4.2b9982bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends,

Every time we get off on this romp, I wind up bewildered why we have it = ; and wind up wondering just who is saying what? It occurs to me that the di= scussion might be clearer if we defined just what we mean by sentimentality=20= both our own and Flannery O'Connor's and Walker's. For my own part, refusal=20= to get involved with the issue is at the root of the reason that I don't hav= e pets put down when they're terminal. Of course everybody thinks I'm a crue= l son of a bitch for adopting this position. By the lights of this discussio= n, am I or not? And if so, why? And if not why not?

            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =            Nikki
--part1_104.29854ee4.2b9982bd_boundary-- >From Tpmonaghan at aol.com Fri Mar 7 00:07:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECB32001F for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from Tpmonaghan at aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.1d0.481f2c2 (4539) for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: Tpmonaghan at aol.com Message-ID: <1d0.481f2c2.2b998345 at aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:08:21 EST To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Subject: [percy-l] on shortchanging the shoppers X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 05:07:00 -0000 Ken Armstrong wrote: "So who was shortchanging the shoppers? It was shopping as salvation that was being scrutinized. Let us, whether or not out of laziness or sloppy thinking, not confuse the issue." Being lazy and sloppy is not new to me or confusing an issue, but it did strike me that shoppers and the shopping mall were linked together. Perhaps that is my thin skinned sentimentalism. If the shoppers were not being shortchanged, are they being overcharged, i.e. charged with seeking "salvation in shopping?" I don't really see great numbers of people who see shoppng as salvation. Just as I don't see many drinkers who see drinking as salvation. Most view such practices, even when they are vices, as an escape, and some moderate escape is necessary for most of us. The Onion had a great article on Americans hungry for the inane and mindless after September 11. >From piat1 at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 7 08:11:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imf18bis.bellsouth.net (mail118.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.58]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A07200A7 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from D68RS511 ([67.33.142.59]) by imf18bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.25 201-253-122-122-125-20020815) with SMTP id <20030307131525.SFCE29975.imf18bis.bellsouth.net at D68RS511> for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:15:25 -0500 Message-ID: <005f01c2e4ab$5476d650$0101a8c0 at D68RS511> From: "James Piat" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DEE at exchangeserver.culver. org> <3148081.1046989285 at modem-203-030.dialnet.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:13:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:11:57 -0000 Ken Armstrong wrote: > Actually I was half-tempted to agree that your umbrage with Jim for the > Christian crusade remark might (might: take a look at the latest issue of > First Things with its declaration of the "just war" about to commence)be > justified, Dear Ken, Steve, Folks-- Me too --and more than half! Once again I went too far with my careless and offensive rhetoric. I apologize to all. Even at sixty-one years I'm still trying to figure out how to explore and vent my ideas and feelings among friends without going overboard and offending my friends sensibilities. Often I fail and I appreciate the fact that you are all a forgiving bunch. Truth is I have great admiration for Percy, O'Connor and all of you. And I greatly enjoy the lively exchange of ideas on this list. So I don't want to spoil the congenial and mutual respectful atmosphere that makes this possible and again apologize for my offensive rhetoric. Imagine the potential for misunderstanding and hurt feelings that such a discussion might engender among folks of different faiths, nationalities, languages and cultural histories! And, Jim -- yes, I too find Percy and O'Connor very funny and a mostly just a delight to read. I realize, also, that none of my interpretations do any of their writings justice, but nonetheless I find discussing their work great fun and can't resist the urge to do so. Hope business picks up soon! Best wishes, Jim Piat From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 11:27:50 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <005f01c2e4ab$5476d650$0101a8c0@D68RS511> Message-ID: <20030307162750.59287.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> thanks jim, enjoy your posts and offensive rhetoric.am afraid the upcoming war will put the finishing touches on the local economy. military all around TidewaterVa. as Kurt V. says "so it goes!" peace, jim autumnleavesbandb.com --- James Piat wrote: > Ken Armstrong wrote: > > > Actually I was half-tempted to agree that your > umbrage with Jim for the > > Christian crusade remark might (might: take a look > at the latest issue of > > First Things with its declaration of the "just > war" about to commence)be > > justified, > > Dear Ken, Steve, Folks-- > > Me too --and more than half! Once again I went too > far with my careless > and offensive rhetoric. I apologize to all. Even > at sixty-one years I'm > still trying to figure out how to explore and vent > my ideas and feelings > among friends without going overboard and offending > my friends > sensibilities. Often I fail and I appreciate the > fact that you are all a > forgiving bunch. Truth is I have great admiration > for Percy, O'Connor and > all of you. And I greatly enjoy the lively exchange > of ideas on this list. > So I don't want to spoil the congenial and mutual > respectful atmosphere that > makes this possible and again apologize for my > offensive rhetoric. > > Imagine the potential for misunderstanding and hurt > feelings that such a > discussion might engender among folks of different > faiths, nationalities, > languages and cultural histories! > > And, Jim -- yes, I too find Percy and O'Connor > very funny and a mostly > just a delight to read. I realize, also, that none > of my interpretations do > any of their writings justice, but nonetheless I > find discussing their work > great fun and can't resist the urge to do so. Hope > business picks up soon! > > > Best wishes, > Jim Piat > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ >From karey at charter.net Fri Mar 7 13:25:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from mx08.cluster1.charter.net (dc-mx08.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.18]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B732008D for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.186.149.176] (HELO AFAC955012) by mx08.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with SMTP id 50213195 for percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org; Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:27:02 -0500 Message-ID: <004101c2e4d6$d263b800$0301000a at AFAC955012> From: "Karey L. Perkins" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <104.29854ee4.2b9982bd at aol.com> Subject: Re: [percy-l] sentiment and death Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:24:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 18:25:33 -0000 Well, hopefully you give them painkillers at least as they're waiting to die...(!) Are you now extrapolating the sentiment & "to the gas chamber" ideas to euthanasia? And then also, abortion? I read Percy's essay on abortion (and among other things, the comparison to WWII), but then I read his comment in Tolson's bio of him, that were it to happen to him particularly in real life, that is, were he a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, he may not have the courage to have the child (even though he believed he should and wrote extensively against abortion). Kind of interesting: In the "theory" vs. particular real-life individual debate, usually theory votes FOR the destruction of "life" for society's good whereas the side of the particular individual values that life. This is where "sentiment" is dangerous -- its dissociation with particularity. But here, were this situation to occur to Percy particularly, he said he might have an abortion; yet when he theorized about the subject, he argued quite strongly against it. Percy's "to the gas chambers" effect occurs when the state -- or some individual, theorist, scientist, or group without any real connection, ties, love, or personal involvement with the subject -- makes a decision about someone else, the subject, as though it were an object. In the case of euthanasia, the state, doctor, or someone else is making a decision about the life of an individual (even though it is couched as a general rule, it will affect individuals) that they usually have no involvement with. When you as family member (or pet owner) make the same decision, it is a different decision, is it not. If the person/being/animal involved is a "subject" rather than "object" (in Marcel's/Buber's terms), you make the decision in consideration of the sacredness of the being involved. I am not arguing that the decision to euthanize should ever be made (perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't); I'm just arguing that it's a different decision. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikkibar at aol.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] aentiment and death Friends, Every time we get off on this romp, I wind up bewildered why we have it and wind up wondering just who is saying what? It occurs to me that the discussion might be clearer if we defined just what we mean by sentimentality both our own and Flannery O'Connor's and Walker's. For my own part, refusal to get involved with the issue is at the root of the reason that I don't have pets put down when they're terminal. Of course everybody thinks I'm a cruel son of a bitch for adopting this position. By the lights of this discussion, am I or not? And if so, why? And if not why not? Nikki -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From PARLINS at culver.org Fri Mar 7 13:34:24 2003 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:34:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF2@exchangeserver.culver.org> Ken, I apparently missed the mark in my comments and will attempt to clarify. I never meant to imply the Chrstians aren't capable of evil or that Christians should not be criticized. Rather, I was stating that evil is unchristian and that generalizations of this sort fail to address the full complexity of events like this mounting war and the holocaust. Moreover, remarks like Jim's (Thank you, Jim, for your sincere apology) are not "crticisims", but sweeping generalizations about a particular group of people. I would have stated the same about Muslims or Jews or Blacks or any other group. Making sweeping negative remarks only fuels animosity toward that particular group and fails to address what is really on the table --the evil in our own hearts. As for a "Just war"...this is an altogether different issue from catagorizing this current war, or any other, as a "Christian crusade". It's not a Christian-driven war. That is, it's not for love of Christ and Kindgom that this war is being waged. Finally, regarding "taking my own advice"...hmm...I can see you missed my point, perhaps due to my own muddled wording, but whatever the case, you've misunderstood. And, the "not me but thee" comment was precisely what I was tyring illustrate. Again, I was not exonerating those who identify themselves as Christians from whatever culpability they may share (including myself). But an evil action that is committed by a Christian (or for that mattter any other peace-loving faithful, say good Muslims) is not thereby a Christian action. This is precisely the kind of generalization that is so dangerous to peaceful negotiation. For, even if the Pope himself committed murder, his action would not thereby become a Catholic action (Just as the actions of some pediphilic priests do not make the priesthood pediphilic). Instead it would be a failure of the Pope to live out his faith; it would become his action, not a Christian action. Likewise, the holocaust was not a simply a Nazi evil. Nazi ideolgoy is, of course, evil, but such remarks fail to see the complexity of the evil that dwells in all of our hearts. For, many members of the Nazi party were more or less good men, even some of the SS. Conversely, many of the Jews that helped in cause of the final solution were quite malignant--again, see Arendt. Were Christians culpable also? You betcha. But does that implicate the Church? Hardly. My point: Demonizing a group, any group, is dangerous and should be avoided. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Ken Armstrong [mailto:armstron at ohiou.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:21 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Steve, Thanks for your apology to the list for the post. Do you really think it needs one? The Jews (not those banal Nazis) are responsible for the "effectiveness" of the holocaust. Christians do no evil (for then they wouldn't be Christian), though "evil cuts right through the heart of every man." And criticizing Christians for the things they do, therefore, "fuels animosity" toward Christ. Actually I was half-tempted to agree that your umbrage with Jim for the Christian crusade remark might (might: take a look at the latest issue of First Things with its declaration of the "just war" about to commence)be justified, but your concept of who is and isn't a Christian....you might take your own advice and "avoid generalizations that declare" Christians incapable of evil acts. "Not me but thee" doesn't cure that heart condition. Ken Armstrong --On Thursday, March 06, 2003 8:46 PM -0500 "Parlin, Steven" wrote: > Jim, if your "good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade" is a reference to > the USA's escalating war-in-Iraq preparations, your comment is not only > inappropriate -polemical?- but, well, a revelation of just the sort of > frightful ignorance that makes such murderous action possible in the first > place. Why? You quite simply fail to see that its not Christians preparing > for war, but consumer-driven secularists who may or may not be slinking > around behind a Christian veneer. Subsequently, your sort of rhetoric > blurs otherwise clear distinctions and fails to accurately identify the > true forces at work. It ain't the Christians. And, your rhetoric only > serves to fuel malicious animosity toward that which may well be the only > bastian of hope and sanity --Christ. Percy certainly thought so. > > Anyone who ever has perpetrated such crimes against humanity are by that > very action NOT Christian. And, if you were simply making a generalization > about the ostensibly "christianized" West (ie. the US), I reiterate my > point about ignorance. Don't make such generalizations, for they are > dangerous misunderstandings which not only free the true culprits from > their culpability, but they also implicate the innocent, and in this case > even the advocate. No authentic christian has ever knowingly sanctioned > murder, else they weren't really Christian and thus cannot rightly be > identified as such. People don't hate what they know to be Chrstianity, > but they do hate misrepresenations of it --and your rhetoric is a grave > misrepresentation. > > Moreover, you might also avoid generalizations that declare the Hebrews or > the Arabs as "victims". Consult the account of Hanah Arendt (a jewish > reporter) of the trial of Adolf Eichmann --Eichmann in Jerusalem; the > Banality of Evil. There are no manichean forces at work in such crimes. > Instead, evil cuts right through the heart of every man (Solzenhitzen) and > it's our "sentimentality", our inclination toward self-fulfilling fantasy, > not our faith that permits that evil to thrive. The truth is Eichmann was > a dissapointment. He was not the monster everyone wanted him to be. Instead, he was a mouse of a man who had been lulled into a moral sleep > by sentiment. Indeed, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the > holocaust cannot be credited to men like Eichmann. No. That burden rests > squarely on the shoulders of those jews who were complicitously (and in > some cases quite agreeably) responsible for orchestrating the planning > and organizing and book keeping. > > You make a concession in the end and assume some responsibility for your > own participation in the problem, but that doesn't excuse your previous > remarks. Avoid the sweeping generalizations. They're dangerous. > > I apologize to the list for any misdirection, but a rejoinder was in > order. SP > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:16 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." > > > >> >> The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and >> despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil >> Bailie refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism. >> -DB > > Well I'll take the kitsch of a shopping mall over the sentimental > nostalgia of another good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade any day. > First the Arabs in the middle ages, then the Hebrews in WWII and now it's > back to the Arabs again. That's the trouble I have with Percy and > O'Connor's example of the holocaust as an argument for Christianity or > moral absolutism -- it's not only ironic and in poor taste to say the > least -- it's a shell game. The problem is not moral relativism, > shopping malls, Arabs, Jews or even Christian anti-Semitism -- it's us: > or in my case, me, always blaming the other in the hope that this > somehow absolves, protects or elevates myself. > > Best wishes, > Jim Piat > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From armstron at ohiou.edu Fri Mar 7 14:45:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FF720034 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from OHIO-9D77P1M1YD.oak.cats.ohiou.edu (dhcp-070-118.CNS.OhioU.Edu [132.235.70.118]) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h27JX9o31553639 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:33:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030307142822.01d3d888 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu> X-Sender: armstron at oak.cats.ohiou.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 14:33:06 -0500 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" From: Ken Armstrong Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF2 at exchangeserver.cu lver.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:45:44 -0000 OK, Steve, I'll have to wait for a quiet moment to digest this, and to read Arendt (for right now I could call myself Haven't Arendt.....sorry, some punning bug going around here). But in light of At 01:34 PM 3/7/2003 -0500, Steve Parlin wrote: >As for a "Just war"...this is an altogether different issue from >catagorizing this current war, or any other, as a "Christian crusade". It's >not a Christian-driven war. That is, it's not for love of Christ and Kindgom >that this war is being waged. you may want to take a look at First Things, not because it is necessarily correct (the article on just war), but because it argues quite contrary to your own assertions. Ken Armstrong From PARLINS at culver.org Fri Mar 7 15:07:32 2003 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:07:32 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF4@exchangeserver.culver.org> Ken, First things first: Is the Fist Things article available online? I haven't access to a hard copy, but I'll read it first thing when I get one. Must be catching. SP -----Original Message----- From: Ken Armstrong [mailto:armstron at ohiou.edu] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:33 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." OK, Steve, I'll have to wait for a quiet moment to digest this, and to read Arendt (for right now I could call myself Haven't Arendt.....sorry, some punning bug going around here). But in light of At 01:34 PM 3/7/2003 -0500, Steve Parlin wrote: >As for a "Just war"...this is an altogether different issue from >catagorizing this current war, or any other, as a "Christian crusade". It's >not a Christian-driven war. That is, it's not for love of Christ and Kindgom >that this war is being waged. you may want to take a look at First Things, not because it is necessarily correct (the article on just war), but because it argues quite contrary to your own assertions. Ken Armstrong -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From PARLINS at culver.org Fri Mar 7 15:23:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from exchangeserver.culver.org (mail.culver.org [67.38.138.133]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BC720034 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by exchangeserver.culver.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:19:20 -0500 Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF5 at exchangeserver.culver.org> From: "Parlin, Steven" To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:19:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:23:37 -0000 Jim, if you didn't see it embedded in a previous thread, I wanted to thank you for your apology. In retrospect, perhaps I was a bit too caustic toward you. Know that it was in part due to my daily regimen of defending my faith. Where I work I have to be constantly at the ready to defend against statements about things like the "crimes of the Christians". I just didn't expect to have to be on the defensive in this venue, particularly since the principle subject of list was a Catholic. I wonder what he'd make of this venue anyway. SP -----Original Message----- From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 at bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 8:13 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Ken Armstrong wrote: > Actually I was half-tempted to agree that your umbrage with Jim for the > Christian crusade remark might (might: take a look at the latest issue of > First Things with its declaration of the "just war" about to commence)be > justified, Dear Ken, Steve, Folks-- Me too --and more than half! Once again I went too far with my careless and offensive rhetoric. I apologize to all. Even at sixty-one years I'm still trying to figure out how to explore and vent my ideas and feelings among friends without going overboard and offending my friends sensibilities. Often I fail and I appreciate the fact that you are all a forgiving bunch. Truth is I have great admiration for Percy, O'Connor and all of you. And I greatly enjoy the lively exchange of ideas on this list. So I don't want to spoil the congenial and mutual respectful atmosphere that makes this possible and again apologize for my offensive rhetoric. Imagine the potential for misunderstanding and hurt feelings that such a discussion might engender among folks of different faiths, nationalities, languages and cultural histories! And, Jim -- yes, I too find Percy and O'Connor very funny and a mostly just a delight to read. I realize, also, that none of my interpretations do any of their writings justice, but nonetheless I find discussing their work great fun and can't resist the urge to do so. Hope business picks up soon! Best wishes, Jim Piat -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From Nikkibar at aol.com Fri Mar 7 16:28:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6B22002E for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from Nikkibar at aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.141.c594a7a (3310) for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: Nikkibar at aol.com Message-ID: <141.c594a7a.2b9a694b at aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:29:47 EST Subject: Re: [percy-l] sentiment and death To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_141.c594a7a.2b9a694b_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10637 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:28:36 -0000 --part1_141.c594a7a.2b9a694b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on the contrary, this is supposedly where the whole thing starts, with the euthanasia of supposedly valueless life. People do it without a qualm in the case of beloved companion soft furry animals (where sentimentality is apparently acceptable) but balk at making such a decision over one's own terminality with an extremely painful cancer and criticize folks who do use human euthanasia as being on the slippery slope to death via sentiment. It has always seemed to me that it ought to be just the other way round -- but for a different reason which is that when one is exercising the fiduciary duty to the animal you ought to be more conservative, not being able to know for certain what the animal would want, but in the case of oneself, one can make the decision for oneself and with dignity and rationality -- Petronius fashion so to speak. And yes, of course I give them pain-killers as I would myself. Nikki --part1_141.c594a7a.2b9a694b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on the contrary, this is supposedly where the whole thin= g starts, with the euthanasia of supposedly valueless life. People do it wit= hout a qualm in the case of beloved companion soft furry animals (where sent= imentality is apparently acceptable) but balk at making such a decision over= one's own terminality with an extremely painful cancer and criticize folks=20= who do use human euthanasia as being on the slippery slope to death via sent= iment. It has always seemed to me that it ought to be just the other way rou= nd -- but for a different reason which is that when one is exercising the fi= duciary duty to the animal you ought to be more conservative, not being able= to know for certain what the animal would want, but in the case of oneself,= one can make the decision for oneself and with dignity and rationali= ty -- Petronius fashion so to speak.

And yes, of course I give them pain-killers as I would myself.

Nikki
--part1_141.c594a7a.2b9a694b_boundary-- >From armstron at ohiou.edu Sat Mar 8 08:08:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6990720025 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from hppav.oak.cats.ohiou.edu (modem-203-115.dialnet.ohiou.edu [132.235.203.115]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h28D62LM940366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:06:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030308080017.009f6020 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu> X-Sender: armstron at oak.cats.ohiou.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:07:09 -0500 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" From: Ken Armstrong Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." In-Reply-To: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF4 at exchangeserver.cu lver.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 13:08:37 -0000 At 03:07 PM 3/7/2003 -0500, Steve Parlin wrote: >Ken, > >First things first: Is the Fist Things article available online? Steve, Apparently my definition of "current" needs updating. It is from the Jan. issue, catch it on-line at www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0301/articles/weigel.html . The title is Moral Clarity in a Time of War. I must be off- Ken A From PARLINS at culver.org Sat Mar 8 10:48:13 2003 From: PARLINS at culver.org (Parlin, Steven) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:48:13 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." Message-ID: <580A6654EC74D511B41600034779BEDE07058DF6@exchangeserver.culver.org> Thanks for the link, Ken. However, after reading the article I still fail to see how the current war rhetoric regarding Iraq can be likened to a "Christian Crusade" launched against "Arabs" (as Jim stated and you agreed). In that regard, I reaffirm my annoyance at any such implication. In that article, Weigle is historically contextualizing a moral stance --the Just War-- on any kind of conflict (and he makes a good case, I think). His focus was on understanding a moral response to a legitimate threat, regardless of where that threat is seated. In fact, contrary to what you seem to be implying, he actually criticizes the American churches for being a little "forgetful" of all that must be considered in regard to a "Just War". He states: "That forgetting has been painfully evident in much of the recent commentary from religious leaders in the matter of U.S. policy toward Iraq, commentary that is often far more dependent on political and strategic intuitions of dubious merit than on solid moral reasoning. The fact of the matter today is that the just war tradition, as a historically informed method of rigorous moral reasoning, is far more alive in our service academies than in our divinity schools and faculties of theology; the just war tradition "lives" more vigorously in the officer corps, in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and at the higher levels of the Pentagon than it does at the National Council of Churches, in certain offices at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, or on the Princeton faculty." Regardless, the ALL of the discourse on Iraq which is pouring out from the HOLY SEE is against war in Iraq, and the Holy Father has been meeting with every world and national official he possibly can in order to influence a peaceful resolution. Summarizing the Vatican's position, "it is imperative to have "the force of law, and not the law of force" prevail in the Iraqi crisis." Again, my point is this: This war isn't being mounted by Christians as a crusade against Arabs, and any such implication fails to see --because of the fog of sentimentality?-- what's really at issue. SP -----Original Message----- From: Ken Armstrong [mailto:armstron at ohiou.edu] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 8:07 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..." At 03:07 PM 3/7/2003 -0500, Steve Parlin wrote: >Ken, > >First things first: Is the Fist Things article available online? Steve, Apparently my definition of "current" needs updating. It is from the Jan. issue, catch it on-line at www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0301/articles/weigel.html . The title is Moral Clarity in a Time of War. I must be off- Ken A -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From karey at charter.net Sat Mar 8 10:53:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net (dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.13]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2B520043 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.186.149.176] (HELO AFAC955012) by dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with SMTP id 100079570 for percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org; Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:54:31 -0500 Message-ID: <002b01c2e58a$adb25bb0$0301000a at AFAC955012> From: "Karey L. Perkins" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" References: <141.c594a7a.2b9a694b at aol.com> Subject: Re: [percy-l] sentiment and death Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:52:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:53:02 -0000 I understand your point, I think, and I agree. This is also the idea of Marcel's functional man (valued by his function in or use to or contribution to society) vs. ontological man (valued for just being -- being itself is sacred and valued). The idea of theory and groups is this: if it's a theory, if it's a group, making the decision, then it is much easire to see the human (animal) for its functionality; but if you know the particular individual, it is much easier (though not always done) to see, value and treat the being for merely "being" -- which is sacred in and of itself apart from any societal or communal function the individual has. Which is why "theory" leads "to the gas chamber," but particularity does not. My point was that you, as someone intimately involved with the being in question, whether an animal or a human, could better make the decision to euthanize based on what the individual involved wanted, based on their wishes, and their sacredness, and NOT based on their functionality, as an impartial group of doctors or a state might decide. (I still don't know if the decision should be made, even if the being involved wanted to be released from pain; however, IF it should, it should be made ontologically (which would be by a loved one) and not functionally -- that's the danger. That's the "Brave New World" warning.) KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikkibar at aol.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] sentiment and death on the contrary, this is supposedly where the whole thing starts, with the euthanasia of supposedly valueless life. People do it without a qualm in the case of beloved companion soft furry animals (where sentimentality is apparently acceptable) but balk at making such a decision over one's own terminality with an extremely painful cancer and criticize folks who do use human euthanasia as being on the slippery slope to death via sentiment. It has always seemed to me that it ought to be just the other way round -- but for a different reason which is that when one is exercising the fiduciary duty to the animal you ought to be more conservative, not being able to know for certain what the animal would want, but in the case of oneself, one can make the decision for oneself and with dignity and rationality -- Petronius fashion so to speak. And yes, of course I give them pain-killers as I would myself. Nikki -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sellick at bigpond.net.au Wed Mar 12 11:53:25 2003 From: sellick at bigpond.net.au (Peter Sellick) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:53:25 +0800 Subject: [percy-l] A Percian wedding sermon Message-ID: <001101c2e8b7$e63cf910$4dec8890@pc> Would list readers be interested in this Percian wedding sermon that I preached at my step daughter's wedding last weekend? Revd. Dr. Peter Sellick, Personal Page: http://users.bigpond.net.au/sellick 37 Weld St. Nedlands WA 6009. 08 93868907 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Percian wedding.doc Type: application/msword Size: 35328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From deybarrondo at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 12:31:21 2003 From: deybarrondo at hotmail.com (Henri de Ybarrondo) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:31:21 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] A Percian wedding sermon Message-ID: Sure, especially since I'm engaged to be married. (if we were meant to find this on your homepage - I couldn't) - Henri >From: "Peter Sellick" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: >Subject: [percy-l] A Percian wedding sermon >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:53:25 +0800 > >Would list readers be interested in this Percian wedding sermon that I >preached at my step daughter's wedding last weekend? > >Revd. Dr. Peter Sellick, >Personal Page: http://users.bigpond.net.au/sellick >37 Weld St. Nedlands WA 6009. >08 93868907 ><< Percianwedding.doc >> >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 12 14:45:01 2003 From: gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com (Jim Wesson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [percy-l] A Percian wedding sermon In-Reply-To: <001101c2e8b7$e63cf910$4dec8890@pc> Message-ID: <20030312194501.56661.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> yes, where is it on your site? jim --- Peter Sellick wrote: > Would list readers be interested in this Percian > wedding sermon that I preached at my step daughter's > wedding last weekend? > > Revd. Dr. Peter Sellick, > Personal Page: http://users.bigpond.net.au/sellick > 37 Weld St. Nedlands WA 6009. > 08 93868907 > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=Percian wedding.doc > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com >From piat1 at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 12 21:43:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imf23bis.bellsouth.net (mail223.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.193]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470392002A for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from D68RS511 ([67.33.172.64]) by imf23bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.25 201-253-122-122-125-20020815) with SMTP id <20030313024703.KRYO10398.imf23bis.bellsouth.net at D68RS511>; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:47:03 -0500 Message-ID: <00b501c2e90a$8d3e4b90$0101a8c0 at D68RS511> From: "James Piat" To: , References: Subject: Re: [percy-l] A Percian wedding sermon Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:45:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 02:43:31 -0000 Revd. Dr. Peter Sellick's sermon is an attachment to the post he sent to the Percy list. I enjoyed it, Revd. Sellick, thanks. Jim Piat From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Thu Mar 13 12:27:06 2003 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:27:06 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] A Percy Fan must-read Message-ID: <3E70BF6A.8000706@ttacs.ttu.edu> Lovers of Walker Percy's works should feel obilgated to read the following pleasant nwes article (I think I have had too much NA-24 today!): http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/03/12/monkey.escape.ap/index.html -- Kenneth L. Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Charles Sanders Peirce Interdisciplinary Professor School of Nursing Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From DAskin at Anselm.Edu Thu Mar 13 14:07:24 2003 From: DAskin at Anselm.Edu (Denise Askin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:07:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] A Percy Fan must-read Message-ID: That article was absolutely perfect! Thanks so much for brightening the day of a Percy-lover in the far north! Denise Askin -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Ketner [mailto:b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:27 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] A Percy Fan must-read Lovers of Walker Percy's works should feel obilgated to read the following pleasant nwes article (I think I have had too much NA-24 today!): http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/03/12/monkey.escape.ap/index.html -- Kenneth L. Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Charles Sanders Peirce Interdisciplinary Professor School of Nursing Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >From piat1 at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 13 15:45:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Received: from imf31bis.bellsouth.net (mail331.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.209]) by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DDD20006 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from D68RS511 ([68.154.2.24]) by imf31bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.25 201-253-122-122-125-20020815) with SMTP id <20030313204919.RFLC17797.imf31bis.bellsouth.net at D68RS511>; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:49:19 -0500 Message-ID: <006701c2e9a1$be37f560$0101a8c0 at D68RS511> From: "James Piat" To: , References: <3E70BF6A.8000706 at ttacs.ttu.edu> Subject: Re: [percy-l] A Percy Fan must-read Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:47:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:45:43 -0000 > Charles Sanders Peirce Interdisciplinary Professor > School of Nursing > Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center Ah the school of nursing ---I'm wondering what you might have to say about Nursing in general and in particular Nursing's relationship to Doctoring, Percy and Peirce. Not to convince or prove anything but just to share a bit of your heart on the matter if you have the time and interest. Hope all is well with you. Best wishes, Jim Piat From JHForest at cs.com Mon Mar 24 11:47:24 2003 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:47:24 EST Subject: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy Message-ID: <104.2ad862a8.2bb0909c@cs.com> I knew that Bob Coles was a Walker Percy fan, but it's news that Bruce Springsteen is as well... Jim Forest * * * New York Times / www.nytimes.com / 20 March 2003 A Rocker and a Revered Author Bond for a Cause By Jacques Steinberg Concord, Mass. -- When Robert Coles, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author and child psychiatrist, needed to raise enough money to save his magazine, DoubleTake, from closing last year, his most urgent call for help was to Bruce Springsteen. It was not a plea out of the blue. Dr. Coles, 73, who has been on the Harvard faculty for nearly three decades, and Mr. Springsteen, 53, who dropped out of Ocean County Community College in Toms River, N.J., have quietly been friends for nearly seven years. Since discovering a shared admiration for the novelist Walker Percy, they have engaged in extended conversations about other chroniclers of the American soul, like James Agee, William Carlos Williams, Flannery O'Connor and Ralph Ellison. These informal seminars have been conducted around the battered kitchen table in Dr. Coles's 133-year-old home here and in morning walks through Harvard Yard, as well as in letters and phone calls. Their friendship was private, at least until late February, when Mr. Springsteen staged two benefit concerts at a small theater, raising nearly $1 million for DoubleTake, a nonprofit magazine that resembles The New Yorker but with oversize photographs. Dr. Coles, who founded it in 1995, is also its editor. Mr. Springsteen "shows that you don't need one of these fancy, snooty educations to be a thoughtful, well-read person who looks at books and takes them to heart," Dr. Coles said. "He just lives with these books." Mr. Springsteen, who declined to be interviewed, told the 900 people who attended the first benefit that he had been profoundly influenced by Dr. Coles's 1999 book, "The Secular Mind." He described it as an extended meditation on the "moment during everybody's day when things stop," and "you're connected to other things, larger things." Sometimes those moments are prompted automatically, he said in remarks recorded by Backstreets magazine. "The birth of a child, death of somebody that you love . . . listening to `Louie Louie.' " He added, "I guess that that idea is sort of what songs and music and art are for." These men often greet each other as "the Boss" and "the Doc," and Mr. Springsteen has signed at least one note to Dr. Coles as "your drinkin' buddy." Now Dr. Coles has written a book about Mr. Springsteen that Random House is to publish this fall. Titled "Bruce Springsteen's America: The People Listening, a Poet Singing," it profiles fans whose lives have been affected by Mr. Springsteen's music. "His songs give you documentary glimpses of America," Dr. Coles said, his study here decorated with photos of Freud, Erik Erickson and Mr. Springsteen. "I connect him to others who have done this with either a tape recorder or a camera or with their attentive eyes." One of those keen observers is Percy, whose nephew Will Percy interviewed Mr. Springsteen for DoubleTake and then introduced him to Dr. Coles. After the magazine's finances became so dire late last year that it could pay neither the engraver (who refused to release the fall issue to the printer) nor its utility bill, Dr. Coles, who professes no business acumen, saw no alternative but to call Mr. Springsteen. The two share a variety of interests. Dr. Coles is well known for a Harvard course he taught until two years ago, "General Education 105: The Literature of Social Reflection." A few years ago he took Mr. Springsteen to a meeting of about two dozen discussion leaders for the course. Mr. Springsteen had read the same homework assignment as Dr. Coles's students -- Ellison's "Invisible Man" -- and participated in the discussion. Afterward Mr. Springsteen sent Dr. Coles a postcard from California with a black-and-white photograph of Percy on one side. On it he had scribbled: "I found this in a clothing store in San Francisco, right next to one of Lou Reed! `Pop icon' status for sure." Dr. Coles created DoubleTake as an extension of that Harvard class. A quarterly, it won a National Magazine Award for general excellence in 1998 and once had nearly 80,000 subscribers. Dr. Coles conceded that one reason the publication got into a "pickle," as he called it, was that he often paid writers generously -- at times $5 a word, when the going rate at other magazines was $1 -- because they were "hard-working people." DoubleTake's money woes were aggravated by a slumping advertising market -- there were only six and a half pages of advertisements in the 124-page spring 2002 issue -- and by the decision to publish an extra edition in 2001 to commemorate the Sept. 11 attacks. Mr. Springsteen's concerts, solo on acoustic guitar, raised enough money for DoubleTake to publish its belated fall issue (now due in late spring), pay off its debts (some authors had been waiting more than a year for their checks) and hire an advertising manager. "We were going to close our doors," said Hugo Barreca, a 13-year veteran of Time Inc. and later Time Warner, who was hired last summer as DoubleTake's publisher. "It is completely accurate to say that Bruce Springsteen saved this magazine." * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bcostell at utk.edu Mon Mar 24 12:35:53 2003 From: bcostell at utk.edu (bcostell) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:35:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy Message-ID: <3E882C2C@webmail.utk.edu> Hi folks, Jim Forest's message reminded me that, as many of you know, DoubleTake published an essay a few years back with Walker Percy's nephew Will and Bruce Springsteen, in which they discussed Springsteen's admiration of Percy, among other things. You can read the full text here: http://www.greasylake.org/talktome/doubletake.htm Not sure how copyright permissions work on that, but I'll let the lawyers sort it out... There was also another fine piece on Springsteen, I believe in DoubleTake, called "Directions to the Promised Land," in 1999 or early 2000. Best, Brannon Costello *********************************** Brannon W. Costello Graduate Teaching Associate Department of English University of Tennessee bcostell at utk.edu ********************* From karey at charter.net Mon Mar 24 14:14:23 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:14:23 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy References: <3E882C2C@webmail.utk.edu> Message-ID: <001e01c2f239$9449fe10$0301000a@AFAC955012> Isn't this the same magazine that has Ken Ketner's submission of Walker Percy' article? I think he said it was due out in December, so if the Fall issue isn't here yet, when is the Winter issue arriving? I'd like to read that article. KP ----- Original Message ----- From: bcostell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion ; percy-l Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:35 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy Hi folks, Jim Forest's message reminded me that, as many of you know, DoubleTake published an essay a few years back with Walker Percy's nephew Will and Bruce Springsteen, in which they discussed Springsteen's admiration of Percy, among other things. You can read the full text here: http://www.greasylake.org/talktome/doubletake.htm Not sure how copyright permissions work on that, but I'll let the lawyers sort it out... There was also another fine piece on Springsteen, I believe in DoubleTake, called "Directions to the Promised Land," in 1999 or early 2000. Best, Brannon Costello *********************************** Brannon W. Costello Graduate Teaching Associate Department of English University of Tennessee bcostell at utk.edu ********************* -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From JHForest at cs.com Mon Mar 24 15:47:03 2003 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:47:03 EST Subject: [percy-l] Re: connected by Walker Percy Message-ID: <10e.202ae33e.2bb0c8c7@cs.com> In a message dated 3/24/2003 6:32:40 PM W. Europe Standard Time, sldye at bluegrass.org writes: > This sounds almost too god to be true - almost like something Percy would > have made up - is this on the level? Whatever the case, it made my day - > one of those "times during the day when things stop".....thanks for sharing > It's straight from the NY Times web site. No shine added by me. It makes me want to see if DoubleTake has a web site and order a subscription. Jim * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: Nancy's e-mail: tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Mon Mar 24 17:25:17 2003 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:25:17 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy References: <3E882C2C@webmail.utk.edu> <001e01c2f239$9449fe10$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <3E7F85CD.5050005@ttacs.ttu.edu> I just noticed on the Doubletake website that issue no. 27 with Walker's essay in it is listed as "coming soon." However, I was able to purchase several giveaway copies in late winter 2002 and have actual magazine copies here (which means this issue is real not just imagined). So perhaps if folks called or contacted the mag office, copies could be ordered. Perhaps with their financial problems they had a distribution difficulty; however, I am only guessing and don't have any inside info on the matter. Don't have any outside info on it either. In fact, I'm ignernt on the topic. Karey L. Perkins wrote: >Isn't this the same magazine that has Ken Ketner's submission of Walker >Percy' article? I think he said it was due out in December, so if the Fall >issue isn't here yet, when is the Winter issue arriving? I'd like to read >that article. > >KP > >----- Original Message ----- >From: bcostell >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion ; percy-l >Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:35 PM >Subject: RE: [percy-l] connected by Walker Percy > > >Hi folks, > >Jim Forest's message reminded me that, as many of you know, DoubleTake >published an essay a few years back with Walker Percy's nephew Will and >Bruce >Springsteen, in which they discussed Springsteen's admiration of Percy, >among >other things. You can read the full text here: >http://www.greasylake.org/talktome/doubletake.htm > >Not sure how copyright permissions work on that, but I'll let the lawyers >sort >it out... There was also another fine piece on Springsteen, I believe in >DoubleTake, called "Directions to the Promised Land," in 1999 or early 2000. > >Best, > >Brannon Costello > >*********************************** >Brannon W. Costello >Graduate Teaching Associate >Department of English >University of Tennessee >bcostell at utk.edu >********************* > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Kenneth L. Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Charles Sanders Peirce Interdisciplinary Professor School of Nursing Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From karey at charter.net Tue Mar 25 12:06:55 2003 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:06:55 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] a brief digression... Message-ID: <001701c2f2f0$f0b03db0$0301000a@AFAC955012> ...with apologies: but since our list seems to be mostly academics, with academic ties, I wanted to briefly mention that, as I near completion of the Ph.D., I am job hunting -- English/philosophy/theology areas -- with dissertation on you-know-who, of course. If you know of a fit, just e-mail me at karey at charter.net. More info can be found at www.perkinsportals.com if necessary... ...and now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: