[percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."

Jim Wesson gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 6 20:17:07 EST 2003


david,
  thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have noticed
,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that we
often make the most sense. or at least i do .
  life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i came up
with was to change my reading group from Faulkner to
 p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision.
  peace to all,
jim
  i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as
having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. both
can be read on a light level also,and that's what i
have to do. they are the most to say the least!




--- David Alan Beck <dabeck at iupui.edu> wrote:
> Jim,
> I think you are missing the point. If you look at
> malls, pop culture in
> general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic
> attractions--in the Kierkegaardian
> sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer for
> where WE are. Bailie's
> comment I think stands. What is particularly
> dangerous is not what is
> obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what lulls
> us to sleep by its
> "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized
> environment--to me, that is
> closer to Percy's use of despair than the more
> obvious, sensational event
> like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and
> Bailie) symbolic with what
> is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing,
> seductive, and meaningless.
> Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no
> introspection, no search is
> necessary. It's all here, self-contained.
>  Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of being
> and having is right on
> target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall
> included--but if we are
> seduced (and I often am)into thinking that "having"
> is being or even a way
> to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, if
> the mall is part of our
> search, then that's ok, as long as we see that the
> true beauty and mystery
> lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, etc. In
> other words, I'm not
> making the sacred/profane distiction; the mystery is
> everywhere, making
> the search possible no matter where we are.)
>  I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense?
> -David
>  
>  
> 
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote:
> 
> > lord, many things worse than malls.
> > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they?
> > 
> > jim
> > --- David Alan Beck <dabeck at iupui.edu> wrote:
> > >  
> > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go
> through
> > > my mind: kitsch and
> > > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go
> > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie
> > > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism.
> > > -DB
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus at loyno.edu wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in
> any
> > > shopping mall that 90%
> > > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques
> is
> > > congealed
> > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")?
> > > > 
> > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by
> our
> > > leaders to try to buy our
> > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their
> > > (our?) preparations for mass
> > > > murder?
> > > > 
> > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after
> Ash
> > > Wednesday.
> > > > 
> > > > Marcus Smith
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos,
> too. 
> > > > >
> > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and
> > > violent; or rather,
> > > > sentimental
> > > > >therefore violoent. 
> > > > >
> > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward
> > > violence is not due to a
> > > > focused
> > > > >ideological rage or fury but something much
> less
> > > interesting --banality.
> > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike
> insanity
> > > that masquerades not just
> > > > as
> > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on
> reality,
> > > a sort of banal utopic
> > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the
> case
> > > that when a man's (or
> > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or
> even
> > > destroyed, either
> > > > >internally or externally, the violence of his
> > > response is magnified in
> > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the
> vision
> > > was away from reality.
> > > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered.
> Maybe
> > > its the dissapointment
> > > > that
> > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own
> > > relationships. Once, after
> > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her
> eventual
> > > wedding day, I remarked on
> > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she
> was
> > > setting up an unlikely
> > > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and
> > > cutting). 
> > > > >
> > > > >Sound right? 
> > > > >
> > > > >SP 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Jim Wesson
> [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 at yahoo.com]
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM
> > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > > Discussion
> > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas
> chamber..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  But there was much tenderness in the forced
> > > labor
> > > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much
> tenderness.
> > > > >there is tenderness all over.
> > > > >  jim w.( can not back this up
> philosophically 
> > > etc.
> > > > >  just like to read  Percy and O'connor.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey at charter.net>
> wrote:
> > > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came
> from
> > > her
> > > > >> originally, as Allen and
> > > > >> Robert said.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for
> > > MaryAnn"
> > > > >> reads...
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we
> govern by
> > > > >> tenderness.  It is
> > > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from
> the
> > > person
> > > > >> of Christ, is wrapped
> > > > >> in theory.  When tenderness is detached
> from
> > > the
> > > > >> source of tenderness, its
> > > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?].  It
> > > ends in
> > > > >> forced labor camps and
> > > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227
> > > Mystery and
> > > > >> Manners).
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying
> the
> > > same
> > > > >> thing.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> KP
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> 
> 
=== message truncated ===


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From: "James Piat" <piat1 at bellsouth.net>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
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Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..."
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=20
  From: Tpmonaghan at aol.com=20
  To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:24 PM
  Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping =
malls..."

  If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he stop.  I mean after =
all, is that too much to ask.

  >>  Ha,  but that it were that easy.  But I take your point my good =
fellow.   "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of =
passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us in the Second Coming.>> =20


    Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt for, should =
likewise stop their misbehaving.

  >>  So, on this we agree?  (one small quibble though  -- I don't =
assume guilt for any but myself)>>

    From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" absolves =
me or protects me or elevates me.=20

  >>  Well in the larger sense it doesn't work from my perspective =
either, but alas, I'm a slow learner.  I find confession good for my =
soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming and posturing =
than confessing.>>=20

  The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves from =
dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would =
deliver it, and that is a question.  However, pondering one's vague =
politically correct "sins" is not the answer.  Such action will elevate =
one in certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank =
sentimentalism that will result in a higher body count for everyone.

  >>  I agree we are all in danger, but the dilema  I was trying to =
wrestle with is how to do protect ourselves while at the same time =
taking seriously the notions of "do no evil" and "turn the other cheek", =
and "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".  As you noticed, blaming, =
posturing and expressing my sentiments come easy to me.  Understanding =
and following the teaching of Jesus is the part I find difficult. One =
side of me says I'm right  -- another I'm wrong.>>=20

  Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is =
permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the =
answer, there is no problem.  In fact, there isn't even a question.

  >>  Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is that maybe our =
interpretation of absolutes is relative to our circumstances.  Can we =
presume to truly understand the motivation of another whose =
circumstances we do not share?  Is there truly only one correct =
interpretation of God's word?  No room for disagreement among God =
fearing folks?  Seems to me such a views fails both of Percy tests  -- =
individual souls can not be encompassed by theoretical universals nor =
are one's individual sentiments a trustworthy test of truth.>>

  Thanks for your comments  -- I hope you are right.  =20

  Best wishes,
  Jim Piat



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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DTpmonaghan at aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:Tpmonaghan at aol.com">Tpmonaghan at aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dpercy-l at lists.ibiblio.org=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org">percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2003 =
6:24=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [percy-l] "...problem =
is not=20
  moral relativism, shopping malls..."</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =

  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =

  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he=20
  stop.  I mean after all, is that too much to ask.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>>>  Ha,  but that it were that easy.  =
But I=20
  take your point my good fellow.   "The best lack all =
conviction,=20
  while the worst are full of passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us =
in the=20
  Second Coming.>>  </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>  Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt =
for, should=20
  likewise stop their misbehaving.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>>>  So, on this we agree?  (one small quibble=20
  though  -- I don't assume guilt for any but myself)>></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>  From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" =

  absolves me or protects me or elevates me. <BR></DIV>
  <DIV>>>  Well in the larger sense it doesn't work from =
my=20
  perspective either, but alas, I'm a slow learner.  I find =
confession good=20
  for my soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming=20
  and posturing than confessing.>> </DIV>
  <DIV><BR>The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves =
from=20
  dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would =
deliver=20
  it, and that is a question.  However, pondering one's vague =
politically=20
  correct "sins" is not the answer.  Such action will elevate one =
in=20
  certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank =
sentimentalism that=20
  will result in a higher body count for everyone.<BR><BR>>>  =
I agree=20
  we are all in danger, but the dilema  I was trying to=20
  wrestle with is how to do protect ourselves while =
at the=20
  same time taking seriously the notions of "do no evil" and "turn =
the=20
  other cheek", and "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".  As =
you=20
  noticed, blaming, posturing and expressing my sentiments come =
easy to=20
  me.  Understanding and following the teaching of Jesus is the =
part I find=20
  difficult. One side of me says I'm right  -- another I'm =
wrong.>>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is=20
  permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the =
answer,=20
  there is no problem.  In fact, there isn't even a question.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>>>  Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is =
that=20
  maybe our interpretation of absolutes is relative to our=20
  circumstances.  Can we presume to truly understand the =
motivation of=20
  another whose circumstances we do not share?  Is there truly only =
one=20
  correct interpretation of God's word?  No room for disagreement =
among God=20
  fearing folks?  Seems to me such a views fails both of Percy =

  tests  -- individual souls can not =
be encompassed by=20
  theoretical universals nor are one's individual=20
  sentiments a trustworthy test of truth.>></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks for your comments  -- I hope you are right.   =
</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Best wishes,</DIV>
  <DIV>Jim Piat</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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