From billjee at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 23:48:44 2004 From: billjee at hotmail.com (Bao Tran) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:48:44 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more about the man and his thinking through this discussion forum. Thank you. From JHForest at cs.com Tue Jun 22 05:59:58 2004 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <37.49933302.2e095d1e@cs.com> In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos in > college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more about the > man and his thinking through this discussion forum. Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: Nancy's e-mail: tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Tue Jun 22 09:20:43 2004 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:20:43 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <40d8322b.214.17c01e.31700@loyno.edu> Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens? case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion?s den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus? final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley?s religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers ? homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration?s war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn?t ?we think, therefore we are,? but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen?s easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.? That won?t do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don?t see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn?t let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words ? words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man ? whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens? trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Jun 23 03:50:41 2004 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:50:41 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <40d8322b.214.17c01e.31700@loyno.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the article, Marcus. I'm not sure that Shadroui has taken the language theory too far--I'm still mulling that one over. Although, I do find it odd to leap into the fray regarding a film that one hasn't seen. In the meantime, I'm remembering my own experience seeing the film and thinking of Medieval Mystery plays, which strove for the same effect through much the same means (minus special effects, but that audience was less jaded) that Gibson did. The intent of such plays (The York Play of the Crucifixion, for example) was to forcefully make clear to the audience that each one watching the play was responsible for the agony of Christ, and that each sin committed was commensurate to re-crucifying Him. Giving the lukewarm quality of much of today's Christianity, maybe the seeing the film, as a triadic experience, isn't a bad idea for professed believers Nice to see a bit of life on the list. Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: marcus at loyno.edu To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word.Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > > Nancy's e-mail: > > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Jun 23 18:38:59 2004 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:38:59 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B03AD@olawexc7.naoxy.com> As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From billjee at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 19:59:57 2004 From: billjee at hotmail.com (Bao Tran) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 17, Issue 1 References: <20040622161154.13E3320181@happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu> Message-ID: I have read LITC, Moviegoer, Last Gentleman, parts of Message in the Bottle and his correspondence with Shelby Foote. I'm now reading Signposts in a Strange Land. ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > From: JHForest at cs.com > Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet list lately -- the > end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest From JHForest at cs.com Thu Jun 24 05:04:27 2004 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 05:04:27 EDT Subject: [percy-l] WP favorites Message-ID: <36.5b796eba.2e0bf31b@cs.com> Dear billjee, >> I have read LITC, Moviegoer, Last Gentleman, parts of Message in the Bottle and his correspondence with Shelby Foote. I'm now reading Signposts in a Strange Land. << One of my personal WP favorites is The Second Coming. Also The Thanatos Syndrome. Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: Nancy's e-mail: tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Thu Jun 24 12:25:17 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:25:17 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B03AD@olawexc7.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <005001c45a07$d767ee00$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Thu Jun 24 19:06:25 2004 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:25 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B03AE@olawexc7.naoxy.com> While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From dabeck at iupui.edu Thu Jun 24 21:48:04 2004 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:48:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [percy-l] New reader In-Reply-To: <005001c45a07$d767ee00$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> Message-ID: Steve, I agree with you. I think that Love in the Ruins is one of his best (I like it much better that its sequel, Thanatos, though I know many will disagree with me). My favorite passage (one of my favorites in all Percy's fiction) is when Tom gives his confession and is surprised by Fr. Smith's indifference (his unwillingness to be shocked by Tom's confession). Then the wise priest says: "Meanwhile, forgive me, but there are other things we must think about: like doing our jobs, you being a better doctor, I being a better priest, showing a bit of ordinary kindness to people, particularly our own families--unkindness to those close to us is such a pitiful thing--doing what we can for our poor unhappy country--things which, please forgive me, sometimes seem more important than dwelling on a few middle-age daydreams." I think that this passage pretty much sums up what Percy is getting at in his novels: do what is under our noses; don't try to change the world; just try to make the "little" world around us more pleasant through our love for those we see everyday; being kind to those we encounter, etc. Make the abstract philosophy or ideas concrete, something tangible. Percy's incarnational view (very Marcelian) is seen clearly in this quote. (Did you really think that I could write very long without mentioning Marcel--speaking of someone who is seldom mentioned on the list.) Good to see the list breathing again! -David On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Steve Dye wrote: > I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I > found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but > definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary > debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan > and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators > in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an > amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would > have liked him. > > As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" > is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM > Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader > > > As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each > would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a > free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for > Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against > Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short > shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism > issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative > on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed > coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a > Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of > this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find > Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. > > Rip Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader > > > Yes, welcome to the list. > > Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. > Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' > atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think > Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that > Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes > Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." > > I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture > wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), > but here it is. > > Marcus Smith > > http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html > > Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith > by George Shadroui > 22 March 2004 > Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one > as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain > Christianity. > > Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a > foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with > homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the > apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. > Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs > of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind > sanctimonious claims. > > This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens > asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of > hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the > violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and > who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in > mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his > conclusions). > > Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman > by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk > the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply > unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with > corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, > argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I > do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens > would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax > collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. > > And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final > hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the > lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he > threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire > inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so > spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film > he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a > piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to > watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. > > Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the > time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to > cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, > no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in > transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called > Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan > later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle > of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd > actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray > sky, to be sure. > > I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes > widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even > those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the > violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious > films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the > remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as > a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose > mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and > divine grace. > > Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to > time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a > man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And > he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt > anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments > or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but > Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: > > "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done > with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has > Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to > Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray > soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing > down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that > cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." > > That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, > well, like a great many others who direct films. But to > suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic > pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of > someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. > > And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally > immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his > infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything > smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the > debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - > homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, > though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the > afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless > practices of Stalinism. > > Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in > support of the Bush administration's war on terror, > leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or > some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for > Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which > partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right > about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep > critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously > explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the > confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. > > C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who > embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, > but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden > in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can > move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce > images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this > make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery > almost as deep as life itself. > > Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San > Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is > a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our > natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles > Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to > form language enables us to address not only our everyday > needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about > existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine > Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, > therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we > are more than dust. Our use of language requires the > interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one > of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back > to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own > expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet > somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. > > "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to > arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of > it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't > do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. > Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for > nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite > delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle > for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle > for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and > wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed > him." > > G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens > sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always > back to the realization that truth emerged not from the > hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material > web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. > Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice > things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of > eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists > are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens > proves. > > And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have > concluded that if there is divine truth available to human > discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the > Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations > and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by > Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they > are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to > critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the > deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you > come to inspired understanding. > > How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least > partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the > mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, > but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each > individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that > began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment > thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked > directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the > Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men > should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. > > It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the > repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, > but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to > transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my > faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one > hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the > sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most > atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day > atheists. > > Percy and other great Christian writers were on to > something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool > of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even > if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit > and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he > might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this > sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a > different kind of journey begin. > > George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen > newspapers and magazines, including National Review and > Frontpagemag.com. > > > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: JHForest at cs.com > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > > > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > > through this discussion forum. > > > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > Jim & Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > Jim's e-mail: > > Nancy's e-mail: > > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > > > > -- > > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------------------------------- > This Email Was brought to you by > WebMail > A Netwin Web Based EMail Client > http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > David Beck -In the deserts of the heart Let the healing fountains start, In the prison of his days Teach the free man how to praise. -W. H. Auden From JHForest at cs.com Fri Jun 25 06:15:56 2004 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:15:56 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins and Thanatos Syndrome Message-ID: >> I think that Love in the Ruins is one of his best (I like it much better that its sequel, Thanatos, though I know many will disagree with me). My favorite passage (one of my favorites in all Percy's fiction) is when Tom gives his confession and is surprised by Fr. Smith's indifference (his unwillingness to be shocked by Tom's confession). Then the wise priest says: >> "Meanwhile, forgive me, but there are other things we must think about: like doing our jobs, you being a better doctor, I being a better priest, showing a bit of ordinary kindness to people, particularly our own families -- unkindness to those close to us is such a pitiful thing -- doing what we can for our poor unhappy country -- things which, please forgive me, sometimes seem more important than dwelling on a few middle-age daydreams." << Dave, can you refer me to the page number for that passage? I assume it's from Thanatos Syndrome as I don't recall Fr Smith being in Love in the Ruins. Or was he? Perhaps it's time for me to re-read Love in the Ruins. I do recall the priest (Father Ken?) and ex-nun in that book who were running a Masters & Johnson sort of sex clinic. Wild. The quotation from Fr Smith reminds me of story I came upon yesterday about St Amvrosy, the famous elder (starets) at the Optina Pustyn Monastery who was a model for the figure of Starets Zosima in Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov" : >> ....Saint Ambrose of Optina ... is universally respected as a holy starets in the line of the Great Optina elders. There is much we could say about him, but I would just like to underline one of the gifts which he possessed, which was the ability to adapt himself to each person and to pass immediately from discussions of high theology to the discussion of practical problems of everyday life. In his life, there is an account of a young man who criticized the elder for wasting his time advising a peasant woman how to feed her turkeys. He answered his critic with these words: "Don't you understand that her whole life is bound up with these turkeys, and that the peace of her soul is of no less account than that of those who come to me with questions about sublime matters?" (From a a talk by Bishop Tikhon of South Canaan recently given at a conference on pastoral care,)<< Jim * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: Nancy's e-mail: tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Jun 25 22:15:40 2004 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:15:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [percy-l] Re: Love in the Ruins and Thanatos Syndrome In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jim, I like the quote from St. Ambrose (very Zossima-like). I, too, need to re-read LIR, but, yes, Fr. Smith is minor character in the book. He is in the "Five Years Later" section. The quote can be found in an old pocket-paperback edition (Ivy Books, published by Ballantine Books, Feb. 1989, pg. 340). Regardless of the edition, you can find it in the last three or four pages of the book. Take care. -David -In the deserts of the heart Let the healing fountains start, In the prison of his days Teach the free man how to praise. -W. H. Auden From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Jun 23 20:50:39 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:50:39 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2647F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl . -----Original Message----- From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] Sent: Wed Jun 23 01:07:21 2004 To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Thanks for the article, Marcus. I'm not sure that Shadroui has taken the language theory too far--I'm still mulling that one over. Although, I do find it odd to leap into the fray regarding a film that one hasn't seen. In the meantime, I'm remembering my own experience seeing the film and thinking of Medieval Mystery plays, which strove for the same effect through much the same means (minus special effects, but that audience was less jaded) that Gibson did. The intent of such plays (The York Play of the Crucifixion, for example) was to forcefully make clear to the audience that each one watching the play was responsible for the agony of Christ, and that each sin committed was commensurate to re-crucifying Him. Giving the lukewarm quality of much of today's Christianity, maybe the seeing the film, as a triadic experience, isn't a bad idea for professed believers Nice to see a bit of life on the list. Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: marcus at loyno.edu To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word.Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > > Nancy's e-mail: > > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From dabeck at iupui.edu Sun Jun 27 19:13:32 2004 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (David Alan Beck) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:13:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [percy-l] New reader In-Reply-To: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2647F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: Karl, You bring up a good point. That all linguistics, philosophy, etc. aside, Percy is good novelist, and one doesn't have to go beyond his novels to enjoy his fiction (though I'd argue that an understanding of the above enhances his novels). What is great about WP is seeing his fiction come to life in the world around us. For example, since we (I?) were discussing Love in the Ruins, I saw a book review in the religion section of our paper that seemed almost beyond parody. I was reminded of when Malcolm Muggeridge went to a perfomance of Godspell and, after the perfomance, the Archbishop of Canterbury, rose to his feet and said, "Long live God!" At that point, Muggeridge said, he knew parody was no longer possible. Anyway, I digress. The book being reviewed was entitled, "And then God created Golf." A quote from the review: "And the book includes a most unique description of Jesus Christ: 'The greatest of teaching pros.'" The line reminded me of the golf tournament in LIR. Isn't Jesus referred to as "the greatest pro of all"? I can't find the exact quote, but the new book seems to bring to life Percy's satire. Any thoughts (or direct references)? -David -In the deserts of the heart Let the healing fountains start, In the prison of his days Teach the free man how to praise. -W. H. Auden From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Mon Jun 28 21:11:21 2004 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:11:21 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B03B0@olawexc7.naoxy.com> Karl: I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long letter. Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl From marcus at loyno.edu Mon Jun 28 21:30:49 2004 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:30:49 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy's prose Message-ID: <40e0c649.9.40909c.8529@loyno.edu> Karl wrote that he is "simply a fan of [Percy's] magnificently fluid prose...." Agreed. At his best, Percy's sentences are close to or on a par with F. Scott Fitzgerald's. If you go back and look at some of the surviving scraps of Percy's adolescent writing, there is a special luminosity there in his diction and syntax, as there is in his mature writing. Even his casual correspondence has a special bosky tang--like that he ascribes to Bourbon. I have never seen any good studies of Percy's prose. His "messages" may or may not be profoubnd, but he has the artist's touch to make his statements so distinctive and compelling. If there's a student on this list looking for a fresh aspect of Percy for a thesis or dissertation or a book, I think this topic is overlooked. Later this week I'll post something about John Desomond's recent book, WP's Search for Community. U Georgia. 2004. Anyone else reading it? Anyone want to make it a thread subject? Got to do something to survive another summer in New orleans. Best, Marcus (who will be very happy when a dear friend of 40+ years, going back to when we were all young together in Beirut when that city stood for beauty, sensuality, and tolerance, gets on a plane later this week and leaves Iraq. Very happy.) ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: To: Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:11:21 -0700 > Karl: > > I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in > the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about > Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of > North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man > on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, > the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got > through that year because of Percy -- every page was > laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told > him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long > letter. > > Rip P. > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; > Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader > > > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the > past few months since joining in. Anything to do with > Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest > has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least > not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that > interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too > 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's > protagonists). > > I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid > prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his > characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have > struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm > of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner > introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 > years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. > > Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes > were mine in my later life. > > I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar > ilk. > > Karl > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm From sldye at bluegrass.org Tue Jun 29 12:57:15 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:57:15 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B03AE@olawexc7.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <008d01c45dfa$2229fa00$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight > Time, billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in > > the Cosmos in college a few years ago and was hooked. I > > hope to learn more about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: > http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: > http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 14:33:28 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:33:28 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040828@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redeneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From sldye at bluegrass.org Tue Jun 29 15:31:05 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:31:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040828@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <007401c45e0f$9f7b6100$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> Point well taken although in the south, the term "redneck" can be controversial, many of us use the term affectionately and is NOT meant in a derogatory manner...Percy was certainly not from "humble" origins but easily navigated both worlds. In "Love in the Ruins" his "ear" for dialects is at its sharpest. Like most :"Southern writers", he wrestled with the "old South (with all of the stereotypes) and the "new" South issue... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redeneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy **************************************************************************** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. **************************************************************************** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Hebrunson at aol.com Tue Jun 29 15:46:10 2004 From: Hebrunson at aol.com (Hebrunson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:46:10 EDT Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <46.5206513a.2e132102@aol.com> Knowing that he lived in the south, I still do not regard him as a Southern Writer, cought in the intricate web of a past life being lived in the present. To me, he just happened to live there and his references were part of that. H B in Austin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hebrunson at aol.com Tue Jun 29 15:46:49 2004 From: Hebrunson at aol.com (Hebrunson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:46:49 EDT Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: caught...sorry about the typo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 17:19:07 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:19:07 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040829@at01.sheamcnitt.com> I agree; it is used affectionately more often than not. I certainly took no offense. ... No "R-word" sensibilities here (It's hard for Southerners to concern themselves with political correctness anyway; and one of our hallmark characteristics is self-deprecating humor). Moreover, as the comedian Jeff Foxworthy said, commenting on the national success of his "...you might be a redneck" routine, "There are rednecks everywhere. Rednecks in New York, California, Minnesota." I agree also that Percy had a great ear for old Southern dialects, and for all the peculiarities of its speakers, which is wonderful to read (He describes a dignified Black character who, for the life of him, couldn't say 'ask' any way other than 'ax'). I live in Atlanta, and grew up near golf courses in South Carolina. Those old voices are fading; all the gothic weirdness seemingly now a thing of literary myth. Everywhere you go, it's a Starbucks-and-Pottery-Barn world. I read yesterday that Roanoke Valley, N.C., a small town near the Virginia border, is getting a Starbucks. The residents are thrilled. I became depressed. BTW: The foreword to Lanterns on the Levee is a good example, I think, supporting your observation as to how Percy "wrestled with," and reconciled, the old South vs. new South issues. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:31 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Point well taken although in the south, the term "redneck" can be controversial, many of us use the term affectionately and is NOT meant in a derogatory manner...Percy was certainly not from "humble" origins but easily navigated both worlds. In "Love in the Ruins" his "ear" for dialects is at its sharpest. Like most :"Southern writers", he wrestled with the "old South (with all of the stereotypes) and the "new" South issue... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ **** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ **** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 17:35:40 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:35:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC204082B@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * He's not of Faulkner's vein (Was it Faulkner who made the wonderful comment about the South, that "The past isn't even past"?). But I think his Southerness, if you will, and the way he grappled with Southern issues -- particularly in essays -- was at the core of his life as a writer. I think the main difference is that he wrote during a later era in the South than did Faulkner, and that the writing reflects that difference. Karl in Atlanta -----Original Message----- From: Hebrunson at aol.com [mailto:Hebrunson at aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:46 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Knowing that he lived in the south, I still do not regard him as a Southern Writer, cought in the intricate web of a past life being lived in the present. To me, he just happened to live there and his references were part of that. H B in Austin ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 17:49:24 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:49:24 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy's prose Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC204082C@at01.sheamcnitt.com> I'm not a literary jock, but I agree with the comparison to Fitzgerald's sentences. Luminous is the word. This is what I look for in a writer: Someone who can write great sentences that I have to stop and re-read, eliciting an involuntary whisper ... "Wow!" Karl -----Original Message----- From: marcus at loyno.edu [mailto:marcus at loyno.edu] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:31 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Percy's prose Karl wrote that he is "simply a fan of [Percy's] magnificently fluid prose...." Agreed. At his best, Percy's sentences are close to or on a par with F. Scott Fitzgerald's. If you go back and look at some of the surviving scraps of Percy's adolescent writing, there is a special luminosity there in his diction and syntax, as there is in his mature writing. Even his casual correspondence has a special bosky tang--like that he ascribes to Bourbon. I have never seen any good studies of Percy's prose. His "messages" may or may not be profoubnd, but he has the artist's touch to make his statements so distinctive and compelling. If there's a student on this list looking for a fresh aspect of Percy for a thesis or dissertation or a book, I think this topic is overlooked. Later this week I'll post something about John Desomond's recent book, WP's Search for Community. U Georgia. 2004. Anyone else reading it? Anyone want to make it a thread subject? Got to do something to survive another summer in New orleans. Best, Marcus (who will be very happy when a dear friend of 40+ years, going back to when we were all young together in Beirut when that city stood for beauty, sensuality, and tolerance, gets on a plane later this week and leaves Iraq. Very happy.) ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: To: Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:11:21 -0700 > Karl: > > I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in > the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about > Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of > North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man > on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, > the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that > year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with > recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote > me back, a nice, long letter. > > Rip P. > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. > Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; > Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader > > > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the > past few months since joining in. Anything to do with > Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little > to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects > thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much > too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's > protagonists). > > I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid > prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters > who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as > satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm > of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner > introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, > I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. > > Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes > were mine in my later life. > > I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar > ilk. > > Karl > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 17:58:10 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:58:10 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC204082E@at01.sheamcnitt.com> I envy you for the personal letter you received from Percy. I once wrote a letter to the man, many years ago, but lost my nerve and never sent it. I hope I threw it away. I imagine I would be embarrassed to read the thing if, while rummaging, it turns up one day. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:11 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Karl: I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long letter. Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From kterrell at sheastokes.com Tue Jun 29 18:15:45 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:15:45 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC204082F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I wouldn't take issue with your argument. As I read the discussions here, I'm inspired to spend more time re-reading some of his books in search of new insights. My previous point was only to say that my past readings of Percy were enjoyed primarily for the richness of the writing, and that I believe Percy should be regarded highly on that score. Karl -----Original Message----- From: David Alan Beck [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 7:14 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Karl, You bring up a good point. That all linguistics, philosophy, etc. aside, Percy is good novelist, and one doesn't have to go beyond his novels to enjoy his fiction (though I'd argue that an understanding of the above enhances his novels). What is great about WP is seeing his fiction come to life in the world around us. For example, since we (I?) were discussing Love in the Ruins, I saw a book review in the religion section of our paper that seemed almost beyond parody. I was reminded of when Malcolm Muggeridge went to a perfomance of Godspell and, after the perfomance, the Archbishop of Canterbury, rose to his feet and said, "Long live God!" At that point, Muggeridge said, he knew parody was no longer possible. Anyway, I digress. The book being reviewed was entitled, "And then God created Golf." A quote from the review: "And the book includes a most unique description of Jesus Christ: 'The greatest of teaching pros.'" The line reminded me of the golf tournament in LIR. Isn't Jesus referred to as "the greatest pro of all"? I can't find the exact quote, but the new book seems to bring to life Percy's satire. Any thoughts (or direct references)? -David -In the deserts of the heart Let the healing fountains start, In the prison of his days Teach the free man how to praise. -W. H. Auden -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Jun 30 01:34:18 2004 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:34:18 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B4A1C@olawexc7.naoxy.com> I didn't keep a copy of my letter, which probably would cause me embarrassment now, though of course I still have his, which was written, I later learned, in the midst of illness. You touch on Southern writers and writing. Percy had little patience for the idea or the identity. I sympathize. I think the attempts to explain it drew attention away from his themes of dislocation, which though universal were new to the closed and dour world of the alienists up to then. His merry and genteel incisiveness was entirely unique -- such as the strange and comic whys and hows of feeling bad in a "good" environment and vice versa. His remark that Sartre, brooding in French cafes over the human condition, was really the happiest man in France, was great stuff. What is so Southern about that? He wrote about the difficulty of inhabiting any place in this modern world, besieged as one finds oneself by the "ravenous particles" of past and present, of hauntedness on one hand and an unnamable depression over the "good life," whether in Short Hills or Savannah. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in The Last Gentleman, through young Barrett's picaresque and protracted ontological torment across the country. Every place holds perils. The South is simply where past impinges more oppressively on present than any other place, or at least did in his day; it was the perfect hothouse for development of this dilemma of being. Where, Percy may have been asking, can a man live at all, and how? Is it better to be crawling into a cave in North Carolina to escape his life as Barrett tried to do or watching MASH reruns in a clinic in New Mexico, where Sutter ended up. I loved his essay on "place" (I think it is in the Signposts volume) as well as his self-interview on being a Southern writer, which say it all. Regards, Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:58 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I envy you for the personal letter you received from Percy. I once wrote a letter to the man, many years ago, but lost my nerve and never sent it. I hope I threw it away. I imagine I would be embarrassed to read the thing if, while rummaging, it turns up one day. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:11 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Karl: I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long letter. Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ ************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ ************************ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Jun 30 09:48:05 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:48:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040829@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <001301c45ea8$df2b73a0$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> I truly enjoyed your response - and totally agree. I just came through Asheville NC and located Thomas Wolfe's (and O. Henry's) gravesite...i wondered what Wolfe would make of Asheville now, which has kind of become the "Taos" of the South...and yes, a huge Starbucks on the corner and EVERYTHING and everyone is really "trendy".... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I agree; it is used affectionately more often than not. I certainly took no offense. ... No "R-word" sensibilities here (It's hard for Southerners to concern themselves with political correctness anyway; and one of our hallmark characteristics is self-deprecating humor). Moreover, as the comedian Jeff Foxworthy said, commenting on the national success of his "...you might be a redneck" routine, "There are rednecks everywhere. Rednecks in New York, California, Minnesota." I agree also that Percy had a great ear for old Southern dialects, and for all the peculiarities of its speakers, which is wonderful to read (He describes a dignified Black character who, for the life of him, couldn't say 'ask' any way other than 'ax'). I live in Atlanta, and grew up near golf courses in South Carolina. Those old voices are fading; all the gothic weirdness seemingly now a thing of literary myth. Everywhere you go, it's a Starbucks-and-Pottery-Barn world. I read yesterday that Roanoke Valley, N.C., a small town near the Virginia border, is getting a Starbucks. The residents are thrilled. I became depressed. BTW: The foreword to Lanterns on the Levee is a good example, I think, supporting your observation as to how Percy "wrestled with," and reconciled, the old South vs. new South issues. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:31 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Point well taken although in the south, the term "redneck" can be controversial, many of us use the term affectionately and is NOT meant in a derogatory manner...Percy was certainly not from "humble" origins but easily navigated both worlds. In "Love in the Ruins" his "ear" for dialects is at its sharpest. Like most :"Southern writers", he wrestled with the "old South (with all of the stereotypes) and the "new" South issue... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ **** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ **** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Jun 30 09:32:40 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:32:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040834@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Eloquently put. Didn't he describe his affinity for his chosen hometown in Louisianna because it was "not a place," or some words to that effect? A location, if you will, somewhat under the radar of the fastest and heaviest "particles" of past and present? -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:34 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I didn't keep a copy of my letter, which probably would cause me embarrassment now, though of course I still have his, which was written, I later learned, in the midst of illness. You touch on Southern writers and writing. Percy had little patience for the idea or the identity. I sympathize. I think the attempts to explain it drew attention away from his themes of dislocation, which though universal were new to the closed and dour world of the alienists up to then. His merry and genteel incisiveness was entirely unique -- such as the strange and comic whys and hows of feeling bad in a "good" environment and vice versa. His remark that Sartre, brooding in French cafes over the human condition, was really the happiest man in France, was great stuff. What is so Southern about that? He wrote about the difficulty of inhabiting any place in this modern world, besieged as one finds oneself by the "ravenous particles" of past and present, of hauntedness on one hand and an unnamable depression over the "good life," whether in Short Hills or Savannah. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in The Last Gentleman, through young Barrett's picaresque and protracted ontological torment across the country. Every place holds perils. The South is simply where past impinges more oppressively on present than any other place, or at least did in his day; it was the perfect hothouse for development of this dilemma of being. Where, Percy may have been asking, can a man live at all, and how? Is it better to be crawling into a cave in North Carolina to escape his life as Barrett tried to do or watching MASH reruns in a clinic in New Mexico, where Sutter ended up. I loved his essay on "place" (I think it is in the Signposts volume) as well as his self-interview on being a Southern writer, which say it all. Regards, Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:58 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I envy you for the personal letter you received from Percy. I once wrote a letter to the man, many years ago, but lost my nerve and never sent it. I hope I threw it away. I imagine I would be embarrassed to read the thing if, while rummaging, it turns up one day. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:11 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Karl: I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long letter. Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ ************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ ************************ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Jun 30 10:44:54 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:44:54 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040836@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Asheville is an interesting story. In the 1920s, it was on the cusp of becoming the next great tourist destination of the world (Thomas Wolfe's mother was a real estate speculator during those heady days). And then the Great Depression spoiled those plans. No sooner did the world recover, and air conditioning was invented (or became ubiquitous). In consequence, all the tourist dollars flowed to Florida, and Miami boomed instead. Asheville has only been able to gain prosperity and "trendiness" in the last decade or so. I sure hope it doesn't continue (as Percy points out, the "good news" of ever-expanding prosperity would make everyone feel awful). I do know this: the happiest people I've ever seen were the hut-dwelling Tibetan refugees I encountered in the Himalayan foothills of India. BTW, I know this bit of history about Asheville from my grandfather who, in the great tradition of failed Southern businessmen, bet his wad on Asheville in the 1920s. He subsequently held the Pepsi Cola franchise in Atlanta, the center of Coca Cola's universe. That didn't work out either. But he seemed OK about the whole thing -- he lived to the age of 97, smoked cigars, and enjoyed putting bourbon in his milk. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:48 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I truly enjoyed your response - and totally agree. I just came through Asheville NC and located Thomas Wolfe's (and O. Henry's) gravesite...i wondered what Wolfe would make of Asheville now, which has kind of become the "Taos" of the South...and yes, a huge Starbucks on the corner and EVERYTHING and everyone is really "trendy".... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I agree; it is used affectionately more often than not. I certainly took no offense. ... No "R-word" sensibilities here (It's hard for Southerners to concern themselves with political correctness anyway; and one of our hallmark characteristics is self-deprecating humor). Moreover, as the comedian Jeff Foxworthy said, commenting on the national success of his "...you might be a redneck" routine, "There are rednecks everywhere. Rednecks in New York, California, Minnesota." I agree also that Percy had a great ear for old Southern dialects, and for all the peculiarities of its speakers, which is wonderful to read (He describes a dignified Black character who, for the life of him, couldn't say 'ask' any way other than 'ax'). I live in Atlanta, and grew up near golf courses in South Carolina. Those old voices are fading; all the gothic weirdness seemingly now a thing of literary myth. Everywhere you go, it's a Starbucks-and-Pottery-Barn world. I read yesterday that Roanoke Valley, N.C., a small town near the Virginia border, is getting a Starbucks. The residents are thrilled. I became depressed. BTW: The foreword to Lanterns on the Levee is a good example, I think, supporting your observation as to how Percy "wrestled with," and reconciled, the old South vs. new South issues. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:31 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Point well taken although in the south, the term "redneck" can be controversial, many of us use the term affectionately and is NOT meant in a derogatory manner...Percy was certainly not from "humble" origins but easily navigated both worlds. In "Love in the Ruins" his "ear" for dialects is at its sharpest. Like most :"Southern writers", he wrestled with the "old South (with all of the stereotypes) and the "new" South issue... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ **** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ **** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Jun 30 11:28:35 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:28:35 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2040836@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <000e01c45eb6$e98e6a60$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> Thanks for the history lesson - Asheville will be even more "interesting" next time I am there. Your father's history sounds like a great short story... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 10:44 AM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Asheville is an interesting story. In the 1920s, it was on the cusp of becoming the next great tourist destination of the world (Thomas Wolfe's mother was a real estate speculator during those heady days). And then the Great Depression spoiled those plans. No sooner did the world recover, and air conditioning was invented (or became ubiquitous). In consequence, all the tourist dollars flowed to Florida, and Miami boomed instead. Asheville has only been able to gain prosperity and "trendiness" in the last decade or so. I sure hope it doesn't continue (as Percy points out, the "good news" of ever-expanding prosperity would make everyone feel awful). I do know this: the happiest people I've ever seen were the hut-dwelling Tibetan refugees I encountered in the Himalayan foothills of India. BTW, I know this bit of history about Asheville from my grandfather who, in the great tradition of failed Southern businessmen, bet his wad on Asheville in the 1920s. He subsequently held the Pepsi Cola franchise in Atlanta, the center of Coca Cola's universe. That didn't work out either. But he seemed OK about the whole thing -- he lived to the age of 97, smoked cigars, and enjoyed putting bourbon in his milk. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:48 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I truly enjoyed your response - and totally agree. I just came through Asheville NC and located Thomas Wolfe's (and O. Henry's) gravesite...i wondered what Wolfe would make of Asheville now, which has kind of become the "Taos" of the South...and yes, a huge Starbucks on the corner and EVERYTHING and everyone is really "trendy".... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I agree; it is used affectionately more often than not. I certainly took no offense. ... No "R-word" sensibilities here (It's hard for Southerners to concern themselves with political correctness anyway; and one of our hallmark characteristics is self-deprecating humor). Moreover, as the comedian Jeff Foxworthy said, commenting on the national success of his "...you might be a redneck" routine, "There are rednecks everywhere. Rednecks in New York, California, Minnesota." I agree also that Percy had a great ear for old Southern dialects, and for all the peculiarities of its speakers, which is wonderful to read (He describes a dignified Black character who, for the life of him, couldn't say 'ask' any way other than 'ax'). I live in Atlanta, and grew up near golf courses in South Carolina. Those old voices are fading; all the gothic weirdness seemingly now a thing of literary myth. Everywhere you go, it's a Starbucks-and-Pottery-Barn world. I read yesterday that Roanoke Valley, N.C., a small town near the Virginia border, is getting a Starbucks. The residents are thrilled. I became depressed. BTW: The foreword to Lanterns on the Levee is a good example, I think, supporting your observation as to how Percy "wrestled with," and reconciled, the old South vs. new South issues. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:31 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Point well taken although in the south, the term "redneck" can be controversial, many of us use the term affectionately and is NOT meant in a derogatory manner...Percy was certainly not from "humble" origins but easily navigated both worlds. In "Love in the Ruins" his "ear" for dialects is at its sharpest. Like most :"Southern writers", he wrestled with the "old South (with all of the stereotypes) and the "new" South issue... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Although, with respect to "southern redneck imagery," Percy always identified himself as an inhabitant of the so-called "New South," distinct from the South depicted by Faulkner, et.al. He wrote somewhere (paraphrasing): "My earliest memories are of a golf course." Moreover, Percy came from, and wrote about, the patrician South, not so much the redneck South. If one is interested in this aspect of Percy's background, "Lanterns on the Levee" by his uncle Will Percy, written somewhere around the 1920s or so, is a must-read. (foreword by Walker Percy in the recent paperback edition). Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dye [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:57 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Off the top of my head, one of the many other things I enjoy about percy and particularly "Love in the Ruins" is what I call Percy's "southern redneck imagery" that is always lurking....peckerwoods, kudzu, pin oaks, Early Times, et al....I guess you do have to be a southerner to truly appreciate the wit and humor in these...it is often a remarkable juxtapositon of such "serious" philosophical themes layered over the southern imagery and often in a bunker of a golf course or behind a levee...when I read "Love in the Ruins" I alternate between laughing out loud and being awestruck by his sensitivity and compassion for humankind.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader While no atheist, I understand Hitchen's attack on Gibson. I've always found Gibson an enjoyable actor but I suspect that politically and religiously he is, as Hitchen's asserts, a "thug." In any case, "The Passion" was thuggish. One can find traces of sado-masochism in most of Gibson's films. The anti-semitic charges are arguable and inferential. On this basis, one could also say Zefferilli's film was "anti-semitic." Thanks for the reminder. I must read Love in the Ruins again. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Dye Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:25 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader I agree with your comments regarding Hitchens. Whatever your politics, I found his "defense" of the Iraq invasion to be somewhat "heroic", but definitely thoughtful and studied, unlike the more emotional and reactionary debates elsewhere. I also recently saw him on a panel discussion on CSpan and he held his ground nicely among a panel of more "liberal" commentators in a discussion of the Iraq situation. He has a unique approach to an amazing array of topics (including smoking!). I also agree that Percy would have liked him. As to this web site, I have been somehat surprised that "Love in the Ruins" is almost never mentioned. It is easily my favorite of Percy's books. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader As a great admirer of both Percy and Hitchens, I tend to think each would have found something in the other to appreciate. Hitchens is a free-thinker who, like Percy, is capable of surprising us. As for Shadroui's piece, he slightly misrepresents Hitchen's charges against Mother Teresa (which were more thorough and convincing), and gives short shrift to Hitchen's eloquent and brave heterodoxy on the terrorism issue. To hear Hitchens in person debate the best and most vituperative on the Left is a stirring experience, and one would be hard-pressed coming away from it not at least sensing in the acidulous Brit a Christian spirit. Who knows what time will tell about the possibility of this development. Anyway, I cannot help thinking Percy would find Hitchens a man and voice necessary to our times and worth regarding. Rip Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Yes, welcome to the list. Here's an article that might stir us out of our doldrums. Shadroui uses Percy to beat up on Christopher Hitchens' atheistic attack on Mel Gibson's The Passion. I think Shadroui takes Percy's language theory much further that Percy ever did and I have trouble with anyone who describes Joe Scarborough as a "fair-minded host." I am always cautious about invoking Percy in the culture wars (because Percy had a way of taking unusual approaches), but here it is. Marcus Smith http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3253.html Christopher Hitchens and the Issue of Faith by George Shadroui 22 March 2004 Christopher Hitchens' criticism of The Passion strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. Christopher Hitchens, observed one critic recently, is a foul-mouthed man of little faith obsessed with homosexuality. One can appreciate this response to the apostle of atheism, but it misses a great deal as well. Hitchens has always gleefully sought to puncture the beliefs of those who in his mind hide nefarious motives behind sanctimonious claims. This is why he skewered Henry Kissinger. How is it, Hitchens asked, that a man whose policies led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, who acquiesced to the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, and who lied about much of it, could be so honored? (Bear in mind I am presenting Hitchens' case, not agreeing with his conclusions). Likewise, Hitchens went after Mother Teresa, a saintly woman by virtually all accounts, but who nevertheless had to walk the same hard landscape as the rest of us. It was simply unconscionable to Hitchens that she might keep company with corporate CEOs who behaved sinfully. No saint was she, argues Hitchens, but rather a scam artist. At this point, I do not think it would be unfair to suggest that Hitchens would have likewise chided Jesus for supping with the tax collectors and for claiming to make blind beggars see. And so we come to Mel Gibson, and his movie about the final hours of Christ. Hitchens walked quite willingly into the lion's den on Scarborough Country over a week ago when he threw not only the kitchen sink at Gibson, but the entire inner furnishings of his rhetorical warehouse. Gibson, so spoke the apostle of atheism, is an anti-semite and the film he made about Jesus' final hours is nothing more than a piece of pornography specially wrapped for those who love to watch men flogged as an exercise in sexual depravity. Joe Scarborough, a fair-minded host, gave Hitchens all the time he needed to enflame an already grossly over-reacted to cinematic moment. In addition to attacking Gibson, Hitchens, no doubt remembering his lessons in Marx, labeled faith in transcendence infantile. Defenders of the film called Hitchens an outrageous anti-Christian bigot. Peggy Noonan later in the show called the uproar about the film a miracle of sorts. Better to debate this issue than the latest absurd actions by this or that celebrity. A silver lining in a gray sky, to be sure. I have not seen the film, but I must concede that the scenes widely shown on television, tempered my enthusiasm. Even those who have praised the movie have volunteered that the violence is difficult to take. My own taste for religious films runs more along the lines of Jesus of Nazareth, the remarkable epic made in the mid 1970s that depicts Jesus as a man of wit, compassion and strength of character whose mystical appeal was rooted both in earthly presence and divine grace. Hitchens is a paid provocateur who has trouble, from time to time, governing his tongue and his pen. He is nevertheless a man of great rhetorical skill and intellectual insight. And he was not alone in finding the film offensive. I doubt anyone would confuse Bill Buckley's religious commitments or his political affinities with those of Hitchens, but Buckley, too, found the film gratuitously violent in places: "It isn't only the interminable scourging, which is done with endless inventories of instruments. The Bible has Christ suffering the weight of the cross as he climbs to Golgotha, but that is not enough for Gibson. He has stray soldiers impeding Christ every step of the way, bringing down their clubs and whips and scourges in something that cannot be understood as less than sadistic frenzy." That Gibson might have overdone the violence would make him, well, like a great many others who direct films. But to suggest, as Hitchens does, that the film was anti-semitic pornography? This strikes one as the rhetorical excess of someone predisposed to disdain Christianity. And Hitchens is precisely such a person. He is totally immersed in a materialist worldview, which explains his infatuation with socialism and his disdain for anything smacking of religious insight. He fancies himself, also, the debunker of scams and the savior of modern-day lepers - homosexuals receive an inordinate amount of his sympathy, though, to be fair, he has been outspoken as well about the afflictions of slavery and imperialism and the ruthless practices of Stalinism. Hitchens caused a stir a while back when he came out in support of the Bush administration's war on terror, leaving his long-time leftist allies angry and bemused, or some combination of both. Bear in mind, of course, that for Hitchens this is a war against religious fanaticism, which partially explains his enthusiastic reaction. He is right about Islamic fascism, but even so, for a man of deep critical skills, Hitchens, we fear, has not seriously explored the issue of faith. Let us try to escape the confines of his Darwinian world for a few moments. C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien, two giant intellects who embraced faith, offered this: faith may well be a metaphor, but metaphors unveil truths that would be otherwise hidden in the forests of every-day parlance. That is why poetry can move us. Metaphors are not always literal, yet they produce images remarkable for their power and insight. Does this make them less or more true? Language can be a mystery almost as deep as life itself. Walker Percy, in his essay, The Fateful Rift: The San Andreas Fault in the Modern Mind, suggested that language is a triadic exercise, while other forms of knowledge in our natural world are dyadic. (He borrows this idea from Charles Pierce, the pragmatist philosopher.) The human capacity to form language enables us to address not only our everyday needs, but also to frame grand conceptual questions about existence and the universe itself.Percy sought to refine Descartes. The fundamental formulation isn't "we think, therefore we are," but rather we communicate therefore we are more than dust. Our use of language requires the interplay of creator, audience and thought itself. It is one of the great mysteries, Percy argues, and it carries us back to a truism that the paths to God are infinite. His own expression of his religious views was whimsical and yet somehow more profound than Hitchen's easy atheism. "This life is much too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then be asked what you make of it and have to answer, `scientific humanism.' That won't do. A poor show. Life is a mystery, love a delight. Therefore, I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight; i.e. God. In fact, I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don't see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed ahold of God and wouldn't let go until God identified himself and blessed him." G. K. Chesterton and Malcolm Muggeridge, who were Hitchens sorts in their early years, found themselves circling always back to the realization that truth emerged not from the hustle and bustle of human beings caught in the material web, but from words - words spoken 2000 years ago. Muggeridge, about whom Hitchens has written some nice things, suggested that faith leads us to a glimpse of eternity and that doubt is integral to faith. Only atheists are certain, Muggeridge suggested, which claim Hitchens proves. And yet, men and women far greater than Hitchens have concluded that if there is divine truth available to human discovery, it is certainly revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. We can stack up the genius of a hundred generations and not come to the insight of a single parable spoken by Jesus. His metaphors remain light-shedding guides and they are open, with all respect to my fundamentalist brothers, to critique, interpretation and layers of mystery. And yet the deeper you explore in humility and grace, the closer you come to inspired understanding. How ironic that Hitchens, who would claim to be at least partially a child of the Enlightenment, cannot see that the mission of Jesus came to fruition not in the medieval mind, but precisely in the Enlightenment he celebrates. That each individual has value in the eyes of God was a notion that began to shape the political context only when Enlightenment thinkers successfully challenged the notion that God worked directly through a single man - whether he be Ceasar, the Pope, or a given Monarch. God lives in everyman, and men should not be entangled in the yoke of bondage. It is not the teachings of Jesus that have caused the repression so obvious in Christendom and other religions, but the failure of human beings to allow their faith to transcend human passion, ego and tribalism. The record of my faith is mixed, generosity, compassion and love on the one hand, schism and sin on the other. Even so, whatever the sins of Christians, it remains soberly true that the most atrocious killing machines in history were run by modern-day atheists. Percy and other great Christian writers were on to something, I think, when they argued that language, the tool of Hitchens' trade, offers a glimpse at the eternal even if it does not guarantee human wisdom. Should Hitchens, wit and writer that he is, ever entertain a moment of doubt, he might yet find himself reading with renewed insight this sentence: in the beginning was the word...Thus does a different kind of journey begin. George Shadroui has been published in more than two dozen newspapers and magazines, including National Review and Frontpagemag.com. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: JHForest at cs.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:59:58 EDT > In a message dated 6/22/2004 5:48:42 AM Romance Daylight Time, > billjee at hotmail.com writes: > > > > I am a new subscriber to the list. I first read Lost in the Cosmos > > in college a few years ago and was hooked. I hope to learn more > > about the man and his thinking > through this discussion forum. > > Welcome to the List! It has in fact been a rather quiet > list lately -- the end of the school year, etc. > > What Percy books have you read since Lost in the Cosmos? > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: > Nancy's e-mail: > tel: (+31-72) 511-2545 / fax: (+31-72) 515-4180 > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & > Nancy Forest web site: http://www.incommunion.org/home.htm * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------------------------------- This Email Was brought to you by WebMail A Netwin Web Based EMail Client http://netwinsite.com/webmail/tag.htm -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ **** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ **** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From chaslow53 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 13:48:12 2004 From: chaslow53 at aol.com (chaslow53 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:48:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <4F2F5A44.5EB9F0DE.02E7F73D@aol.com> I have very much enjoyed the activity on this list in the past several days. Let me add just a few things, none of them original: * WP did say that "lack of place" was one of the great things about Covington. "...lack of identity, lack of placeness, even lack of history." In Covington, "I didn't know anybody, had no kin." He subsequently said, as I recall, that one of the things he enjoyed most about the town was that he was less well known than the local Budweiser distributor. * He left New Orleans for Covington in part because of the debilitating effect of NO on the author's productivity. "The occupational hazard of the writer in New Orleans is a variety of the French flu, which might be called the Vieux Carre syndrome." Faulkner, he said, was "charmed to a standstill" by NO. * When I was in graduate school at the University of Cincinnati, I was such a Thomas Wolfe fan (even though, or perhaps especially because, I was not an English major) that I drove all night to get to Ashville to try to find his grave (found it) and his mother's boarding house (never did). * I was prevented from embarrassing myself by writing a letter to WP by virtue of my ignorance. I had honestly never heard of him by the time of his death. In fact, I never read a word until about three years ago. I interviewed an applicant for the job of departmental assistant. This was her first job, and she was an English major. Well, there's not much to ask folks in a first job interview, so, because she was an English major, I asked her who her favorite author was. She told me that it was Walker Percy, and I just on a whim a few days later picked up The Moviegoer. Wow, what a revelation. * Although WP was spared, I did have my "here's a letter for a famous person" phase. I wrote an indignant and bombastic letter to Pope Paul VI to express my utter horror at the thought that he would CONSIDER taking the Mass out of Latin. His Holiness did not see fit to reply. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, NY From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Jun 30 15:23:38 2004 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:23:38 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC204083B@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * When WP tired of attempting to give accurate replies to the townsfolk in Covington about what he did for a living, he began to respond by saying, "Not much of anything" (or to that effect; I don't recall the exact quote). He reported they were quite happy with this response. The boarding house/musuem is near downtown. It was severely damaged by an arson in 1998, but has since been restored. Karl -----Original Message----- From: chaslow53 at aol.com [mailto:chaslow53 at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:48 PM To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I have very much enjoyed the activity on this list in the past several days. Let me add just a few things, none of them original: * WP did say that "lack of place" was one of the great things about Covington. "...lack of identity, lack of placeness, even lack of history." In Covington, "I didn't know anybody, had no kin." He subsequently said, as I recall, that one of the things he enjoyed most about the town was that he was less well known than the local Budweiser distributor. * He left New Orleans for Covington in part because of the debilitating effect of NO on the author's productivity. "The occupational hazard of the writer in New Orleans is a variety of the French flu, which might be called the Vieux Carre syndrome." Faulkner, he said, was "charmed to a standstill" by NO. * When I was in graduate school at the University of Cincinnati, I was such a Thomas Wolfe fan (even though, or perhaps especially because, I was not an English major) that I drove all night to get to Ashville to try to find his grave (found it) and his mother's boarding house (never did). * I was prevented from embarrassing myself by writing a letter to WP by virtue of my ignorance. I had honestly never heard of him by the time of his death. In fact, I never read a word until about three years ago. I interviewed an applicant for the job of departmental assistant. This was her first job, and she was an English major. Well, there's not much to ask folks in a first job interview, so, because she was an English major, I asked her who her favorite author was. She told me that it was Walker Percy, and I just on a whim a few days later picked up The Moviegoer. Wow, what a revelation. * Although WP was spared, I did have my "here's a letter for a famous person" phase. I wrote an indignant and bombastic letter to Pope Paul VI to express my utter horror at the thought that he would CONSIDER taking the Mass out of Latin. His Holiness did not see fit to reply. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, NY -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Jun 30 16:19:44 2004 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Steve Dye) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:19:44 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] New reader References: <4F2F5A44.5EB9F0DE.02E7F73D@aol.com> Message-ID: <004a01c45edf$960f0060$e512a8c0@bluegrass.board> I also went looking for Percy's gravesite in Covington a few years ago and there is still little trace of him there...his grave is just a flat marker in the cemetary behind the Abbey there along with the other priests... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:48 PM Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader > I have very much enjoyed the activity on this list in the past several days. Let me add just a few things, none of them original: > > * WP did say that "lack of place" was one of the great things about Covington. "...lack of identity, lack of placeness, even lack of history." In Covington, "I didn't know anybody, had no kin." He subsequently said, as I recall, that one of the things he enjoyed most about the town was that he was less well known than the local Budweiser distributor. > > * He left New Orleans for Covington in part because of the debilitating effect of NO on the author's productivity. "The occupational hazard of the writer in New Orleans is a variety of the French flu, which might be called the Vieux Carre syndrome." Faulkner, he said, was "charmed to a standstill" by NO. > > * When I was in graduate school at the University of Cincinnati, I was such a Thomas Wolfe fan (even though, or perhaps especially because, I was not an English major) that I drove all night to get to Ashville to try to find his grave (found it) and his mother's boarding house (never did). > > * I was prevented from embarrassing myself by writing a letter to WP by virtue of my ignorance. I had honestly never heard of him by the time of his death. In fact, I never read a word until about three years ago. I interviewed an applicant for the job of departmental assistant. This was her first job, and she was an English major. Well, there's not much to ask folks in a first job interview, so, because she was an English major, I asked her who her favorite author was. She told me that it was Walker Percy, and I just on a whim a few days later picked up The Moviegoer. Wow, what a revelation. > > * Although WP was spared, I did have my "here's a letter for a famous person" phase. I wrote an indignant and bombastic letter to Pope Paul VI to express my utter horror at the thought that he would CONSIDER taking the Mass out of Latin. His Holiness did not see fit to reply. > > Chuck Lowry > Brooklyn, NY > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Jun 30 18:17:29 2004 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:17:29 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] New reader Message-ID: <1E4B441CB5CF9D408D318BC697F086F5014B4A1D@olawexc7.naoxy.com> I think he once said that the ideal was to live like a bug in the crack of sidewalk. Away from it all but able to peer up every now and then to see what was going on. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:33 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Eloquently put. Didn't he describe his affinity for his chosen hometown in Louisianna because it was "not a place," or some words to that effect? A location, if you will, somewhat under the radar of the fastest and heaviest "particles" of past and present? -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:34 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I didn't keep a copy of my letter, which probably would cause me embarrassment now, though of course I still have his, which was written, I later learned, in the midst of illness. You touch on Southern writers and writing. Percy had little patience for the idea or the identity. I sympathize. I think the attempts to explain it drew attention away from his themes of dislocation, which though universal were new to the closed and dour world of the alienists up to then. His merry and genteel incisiveness was entirely unique -- such as the strange and comic whys and hows of feeling bad in a "good" environment and vice versa. His remark that Sartre, brooding in French cafes over the human condition, was really the happiest man in France, was great stuff. What is so Southern about that? He wrote about the difficulty of inhabiting any place in this modern world, besieged as one finds oneself by the "ravenous particles" of past and present, of hauntedness on one hand and an unnamable depression over the "good life," whether in Short Hills or Savannah. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in The Last Gentleman, through young Barrett's picaresque and protracted ontological torment across the country. Every place holds perils. The South is simply where past impinges more oppressively on present than any other place, or at least did in his day; it was the perfect hothouse for development of this dilemma of being. Where, Percy may have been asking, can a man live at all, and how? Is it better to be crawling into a cave in North Carolina to escape his life as Barrett tried to do or watching MASH reruns in a clinic in New Mexico, where Sutter ended up. I loved his essay on "place" (I think it is in the Signposts volume) as well as his self-interview on being a Southern writer, which say it all. Regards, Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 2:58 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader I envy you for the personal letter you received from Percy. I once wrote a letter to the man, many years ago, but lost my nerve and never sent it. I hope I threw it away. I imagine I would be embarrassed to read the thing if, while rummaging, it turns up one day. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com [mailto:Robert_Pauley at oxy.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:11 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: [percy-l] New reader Karl: I agree heartily. I came upon Percy one day in a funk in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina reading about Will Barrett in a funk in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. It couldn't have been a more perfect "man on the train" moment. Second Coming remains my favorite, the sweetest of his books I believe. I really think I got through that year because of Percy -- every page was laughter rich with recognitions. I wrote Percy and told him this, and the gentleman wrote me back, a nice, long letter. Rip P. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:51 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] New reader * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I have enjoyed the few entries I've read here over the past few months since joining in. Anything to do with Percy fascinates me. However, I must confess, my interest has little to do with Percy's language theory (at least not the technical aspects thereof), nor am I that interested in the 'Catholic' issues (I am much too 'lapsed' in this area, as are many of Percy's protagonists). I am, instead, simply a fan of his magnificently fluid prose, his trenchant observations on human nature, and his characters who -- while dangerously alienated -- have struck me always as satisfyingly in tune with the rhythm of life as it ought to be. Also, as a Southerner introduced to Percy when I was a student at Chapel Hill 30 years ago, I feel very much at home with Mr. Percy. Binx Bolling was my Holden Caulfield. His later heroes were mine in my later life. I would enjoy hearing from Percy afficianados of similar ilk. Karl -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************ ************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ ************************ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy