From kterrell at sheastokes.com Mon Aug 1 12:01:36 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:01:36 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC21EF91B@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I've enjoyed today's flurry of postings on this list. I definitely fall into the 'lay' category -- perhap sub-lay -- that one of you mentioned. I really can't contribute to this academic-oriented crowd, but I enjoy reading the thoughts of those who are, by profession, able to spend time thinking seriously about Percy and his connections to literature, semiotics, Catholicism, and 4 pm angst, and who are willing to share their observations. Perhaps one of you will take a bite at this: I've been thinking about the scene early in The Moviegoer where Binx sees William Holden on the street, and Percy describes the peculiar power of the celebrity image. I'm in mind of this as I've been engaged in discussion recentlywith others about Lance Armstrong. This led to a discussion about 'true heroes and mere celebrity,' and the paucity of - and cynical fear of - the former, and the overload in our culture of the latter. We spoke about Andy Warhol's use of the celebrity image in the same way that he used a Brillo Soap Pad box, and how these images are at one and the same time trivial, while also serving as symbols that trigger other less-than-conscious references. I'm fascinated not by celebrities themselves, but by how they effect us. We live, it has been said, in a time in which we see more images in a day than rural Victorians would view in a lifetime. What are the implications of this? What did Percy think about this? I once saw Elizabeth Taylor in a Musuem cafeteria getting a cup of coffee (30 years ago, when she was still beautiful), and my recognition of her (instanteous) took my breath away. Why was that? Is the disconnect or chasm between celebrity and hero akin to the illusion of happiness and the state of 'alertness, awareness, engagement,' that chaslow53 at aol.com spoke about? While the former is fleeting but seductive, the latter is genuine but difficult. Let's hear from those of you far more knowledgeable about Percy on this. Karl -----Original Message----- From: chaslow53 at aol.com [mailto:chaslow53 at aol.com] Sent: Sun Jul 31 16:39:52 2005 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer I shall see to it, by making you all read the thoughts set out below, that no one ever again complains about inactivity on this list! As I mentioned in a previous posting, I first read The Movieoer at the age of fifty-two (I have shoes and neckties older than some people on this list), and it changed my life. Without going into any detail about how it changed my life--as Justice Rhenquist fanously said, that's for me to know and you to find out--I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the book, and I would be grateful for any reactions, either to the list or privately, about the views I am formulating but which are far from complete. I'm not sure that novels, good ones anyway, have a message that is intended by the author and more or less automatically picked up by astute readers. One of the interesting things about literature, in fact, is how authors change their minds about their own books over the years and how readers can come to startlingly different conclusions about books. With those prefatory remarks, I have come to see an element in The Moviegoer that is clearer and clearer to me with each rereading. There is a strong message in the book about happiness: it is in most cases impossible to grasp, both as a concept and as a reality. Further, it is largely irrelevant. To be alert, engaged, aware, these states of being are more important, and more real, than to be happy. And finally, there is only the most accidental relationship between our plans and actions and what we hope will be our happines. Let us take Kate as our first example. Binx, by the end of the book, is pleased to marry her, even though they both realize that there is virtually no chance that she will ever attain a measure of happiness, and even in daily life she will be a constant and inevitable burden to Binx. Not only is Binx's mother not a candidate for happiness, it is specifically disavowed on her behalf. She employs all her resources, including religion, in the "canny management of the shocks of life." Aunt Emily is so wrapped up in her Stoic philosophy, with its "lost cause-Southern" tint, that she positively embraces failure in its historic dimension. Binx himself sets the terms of his search in such a way that happines cannot possibly be the result. Instead, it is an engaged awareness that is his goal. <> The two difficulties to be dealt with before declaring this attitude to be comprehensive are Uncle Jules (He is an exemplary Catholic, but it is hard to know why he takes the trouble. For the world he lives in, the City of Man, is so pleasant that the City of God must hold little in store for him.) and Mercer. All things considered, I wonder if we can say that WP hides an important clue for us in an off-hand thought by Binx on his way home from the Gulf with Sharon: Joy and sadness come by turns, I know now. Beauty and bravery make you sad, and victory breaks your heart. But life goes on, and on we go... I plan on expanding these thoughts into a full-blown essay one day, but any thoughts, criticisms (I have a wife and two daughters, aged twenty-one and seventeen, so do not think that you can say anything to offend me) or suggestions you have are welcome. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Aug 3 01:40:41 2005 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:40:41 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC21EF91B@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't say that I'm more knowledgeable, but, just based on MG, it seems like Percy consider the cult of celebrity to be an inauthentic referent--in other words, as long as Binx is beseeching Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun for answers, he's living in bad faith. Notice that in the epilogue, after he's made that leap to the religious, there's no need for talk of movies and movie stars any longer. Rather than the movies certifying his existence, he's able to certify his own being as well as Kate's. Just my two cents. Sure is good to hear a little chatter! Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl M. Terrell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I've enjoyed today's flurry of postings on this list. I definitely fall into the 'lay' category -- perhap sub-lay -- that one of you mentioned. I really can't contribute to this academic-oriented crowd, but I enjoy reading the thoughts of those who are, by profession, able to spend time thinking seriously about Percy and his connections to literature, semiotics, Catholicism, and 4 pm angst, and who are willing to share their observations. Perhaps one of you will take a bite at this: I've been thinking about the scene early in The Moviegoer where Binx sees William Holden on the street, and Percy describes the peculiar power of the celebrity image. I'm in mind of this as I've been engaged in discussion recentlywith others about Lance Armstrong. This led to a discussion about 'true heroes and mere celebrity,' and the paucity of - and cynical fear of - the former, and the overload in our culture of the latter. We spoke about Andy Warhol's use of the celebrity image in the same way that he used a Brillo Soap Pad box, and how these images are at one and the same time trivial, while also serving as symbols that trigger other less-than-conscious references. I'm fascinated not by celebrities themselves, but by how they effect us. We live, it has been said, in a time in which we see more images in a day than rural Victorians would view in a lifetime. What are the implications of this? What did Percy think about this? I once saw Elizabeth Taylor in a Musuem cafeteria getting a cup of coffee (30 years ago, when she was still beautiful), and my recognition of her (instanteous) took my breath away. Why was that? Is the disconnect or chasm between celebrity and hero akin to the illusion of happiness and the state of 'alertness, awareness, engagement,' that chaslow53 at aol.com spoke about? While the former is fleeting but seductive, the latter is genuine but difficult. Let's hear from those of you far more knowledgeable about Percy on this. Karl -----Original Message----- From: chaslow53 at aol.com [mailto:chaslow53 at aol.com] Sent: Sun Jul 31 16:39:52 2005 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer I shall see to it, by making you all read the thoughts set out below, that no one ever again complains about inactivity on this list! As I mentioned in a previous posting, I first read The Movieoer at the age of fifty-two (I have shoes and neckties older than some people on this list), and it changed my life. Without going into any detail about how it changed my life--as Justice Rhenquist fanously said, that's for me to know and you to find out--I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the book, and I would be grateful for any reactions, either to the list or privately, about the views I am formulating but which are far from complete. I'm not sure that novels, good ones anyway, have a message that is intended by the author and more or less automatically picked up by astute readers. One of the interesting things about literature, in fact, is how authors change their minds about their own books over the years and how readers can come to startlingly different conclusions about books. With those prefatory remarks, I have come to see an element in The Moviegoer that is clearer and clearer to me with each rereading. There is a strong message in the book about happiness: it is in most cases impossible to grasp, both as a concept and as a reality. Further, it is largely irrelevant. To be alert, engaged, aware, these states of being are more important, and more real, than to be happy. And finally, there is only the most accidental relationship between our plans and actions and what we hope will be our happines. Let us take Kate as our first example. Binx, by the end of the book, is pleased to marry her, even though they both realize that there is virtually no chance that she will ever attain a measure of happiness, and even in daily life she will be a constant and inevitable burden to Binx. Not only is Binx's mother not a candidate for happiness, it is specifically disavowed on her behalf. She employs all her resources, including religion, in the "canny management of the shocks of life." Aunt Emily is so wrapped up in her Stoic philosophy, with its "lost cause-Southern" tint, that she positively embraces failure in its historic dimension. Binx himself sets the terms of his search in such a way that happines cannot possibly be the result. Instead, it is an engaged awareness that is his goal. <> The two difficulties to be dealt with before declaring this attitude to be comprehensive are Uncle Jules (He is an exemplary Catholic, but it is hard to know why he takes the trouble. For the world he lives in, the City of Man, is so pleasant that the City of God must hold little in store for him.) and Mercer. All things considered, I wonder if we can say that WP hides an important clue for us in an off-hand thought by Binx on his way home from the Gulf with Sharon: Joy and sadness come by turns, I know now. Beauty and bravery make you sad, and victory breaks your heart. But life goes on, and on we go... I plan on expanding these thoughts into a full-blown essay one day, but any thoughts, criticisms (I have a wife and two daughters, aged twenty-one and seventeen, so do not think that you can say anything to offend me) or suggestions you have are welcome. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Wed Aug 3 11:36:50 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:36:50 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803153630.KOI1954.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Tomorrow on The Connection, books that changed my life series is featuring WP MG. This might be a repeat of the previous one. "If you're a big enough fool to climb a tree and like a cat refuse to come down, then someone who loves you has to make as big a fool of himself to rescue you." W Percy _____ _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:41 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer I wouldn't say that I'm more knowledgeable, but, just based on MG, it seems like Percy consider the cult of celebrity to be an inauthentic referent--in other words, as long as Binx is beseeching Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun for answers, he's living in bad faith. Notice that in the epilogue, after he's made that leap to the religious, there's no need for talk of movies and movie stars any longer. Rather than the movies certifying his existence, he's able to certify his own being as well as Kate's. Just my two cents. Sure is good to hear a little chatter! Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl M. Terrell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion ; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I've enjoyed today's flurry of postings on this list. I definitely fall into the 'lay' category -- perhap sub-lay -- that one of you mentioned. I really can't contribute to this academic-oriented crowd, but I enjoy reading the thoughts of those who are, by profession, able to spend time thinking seriously about Percy and his connections to literature, semiotics, Catholicism, and 4 pm angst, and who are willing to share their observations. Perhaps one of you will take a bite at this: I've been thinking about the scene early in The Moviegoer where Binx sees William Holden on the street, and Percy describes the peculiar power of the celebrity image. I'm in mind of this as I've been engaged in discussion recentlywith others about Lance Armstrong. This led to a discussion about 'true heroes and mere celebrity,' and the paucity of - and cynical fear of - the former, and the overload in our culture of the latter. We spoke about Andy Warhol's use of the celebrity image in the same way that he used a Brillo Soap Pad box, and how these images are at one and the same time trivial, while also serving as symbols that trigger other less-than-conscious references. I'm fascinated not by celebrities themselves, but by how they effect us. We live, it has been said, in a time in which we see more images in a day than rural Victorians would view in a lifetime. What are the implications of this? What did Percy think about this? I once saw Elizabeth Taylor in a Musuem cafeteria getting a cup of coffee (30 years ago, when she was still beautiful), and my recognition of her (instanteous) took my breath away. Why was that? Is the disconnect or chasm between celebrity and hero akin to the illusion of happiness and the state of 'alertness, awareness, engagement,' that chaslow53 at aol.com spoke about? While the former is fleeting but seductive, the latter is genuine but difficult. Let's hear from those of you far more knowledgeable about Percy on this. Karl -----Original Message----- From: chaslow53 at aol.com [mailto:chaslow53 at aol.com] Sent: Sun Jul 31 16:39:52 2005 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer I shall see to it, by making you all read the thoughts set out below, that no one ever again complains about inactivity on this list! As I mentioned in a previous posting, I first read The Movieoer at the age of fifty-two (I have shoes and neckties older than some people on this list), and it changed my life. Without going into any detail about how it changed my life--as Justice Rhenquist fanously said, that's for me to know and you to find out--I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the book, and I would be grateful for any reactions, either to the list or privately, about the views I am formulating but which are far from complete. I'm not sure that novels, good ones anyway, have a message that is intended by the author and more or less automatically picked up by astute readers. One of the interesting things about literature, in fact, is how authors change their minds about their own books over the years and how readers can come to startlingly different conclusions about books. With those prefatory remarks, I have come to see an element in The Moviegoer that is clearer and clearer to me with each rereading. There is a strong message in the book about happiness: it is in most cases impossible to grasp, both as a concept and as a reality. Further, it is largely irrelevant. To be alert, engaged, aware, these states of being are more important, and more real, than to be happy. And finally, there is only the most accidental relationship between our plans and actions and what we hope will be our happines. Let us take Kate as our first example. Binx, by the end of the book, is pleased to marry her, even though they both realize that there is virtually no chance that she will ever attain a measure of happiness, and even in daily life she will be a constant and inevitable burden to Binx. Not only is Binx's mother not a candidate for happiness, it is specifically disavowed on her behalf. She employs all her resources, including religion, in the "canny management of the shocks of life." Aunt Emily is so wrapped up in her Stoic philosophy, with its "lost cause-Southern" tint, that she positively embraces failure in its historic dimension. Binx himself sets the terms of his search in such a way that happines cannot possibly be the result. Instead, it is an engaged awareness that is his goal. <> The two difficulties to be dealt with before declaring this attitude to be comprehensive are Uncle Jules (He is an exemplary Catholic, but it is hard to know why he takes the trouble. For the world he lives in, the City of Man, is so pleasant that the City of God must hold little in store for him.) and Mercer. All things considered, I wonder if we can say that WP hides an important clue for us in an off-hand thought by Binx on his way home from the Gulf with Sharon: Joy and sadness come by turns, I know now. Beauty and bravery make you sad, and victory breaks your heart. But life goes on, and on we go... I plan on expanding these thoughts into a full-blown essay one day, but any thoughts, criticisms (I have a wife and two daughters, aged twenty-one and seventeen, so do not think that you can say anything to offend me) or suggestions you have are welcome. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York **************************************************************************** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. **************************************************************************** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblioorg/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chaslow53 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 12:41:05 2005 From: chaslow53 at aol.com (chaslow53 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:41:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer In-Reply-To: <20050803153630.KOI1954.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <8C7666147022EB2-15F0-4C31@MBLK-M30.sysops.aol.com> <> If it is a repeat, it is well worth hearing. There is a link to the original program on the Korrektiv blog. I was thinking about about Karl's observations on William Holden and Rory Calhoun and celebrity in general, especially in The Moviegoer. The thing that turned the sighting around was the match, the encounter with the newlyweds. From there Binx could imagine taking Holden home to the fraternity house. "Phil, this is Bill Holden." The incorporation of the celebrity into specific daily life is what makes the event real, whether the incorporation is itself real (the match) or imagined (the frat house introduction). One of the publishing houses I have worked for was located in SoHo, where from time to time I would see Gwenneth Paltrow on the street. There was nothing real about these non-encounters at all. I walked away thinking, ah, this is the beautiful woman I saw virtually naked in Shakespeare in Love, but there was no connection with "real" life, no match, no thought of a fraternity house introduction. What is interesting is that there are several episodes in the book, and the three that come to mind right now (it is an ever-changing list) are this William Holden sighting, the polished salesman on the train cutting articles out of the paper and Binx and his mother in the fishing camp, anyway, there are episodes that seem to take on greater and greater importance with rereading, incidents that speak to us more forcefully upon rereading. In that regard, there is a terrific essay in the Summer 2005 Virginia Quarterly Review, by Sven Berkerts. He discusses his favorite novel, which, shockingly, is not The Moviegoer but Humboldt's Gift (all right, I'm not entirely serious). He talks about this phenomenon of what we aim for in rereading, in terms which I am pretty sure we can apply as worthily to The Moviegoer as to Humboldt's Gift: <> Copyright 2005 by The Virginia Qarterly Review (www.vqronline.org), used without permission but without malice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 3 15:26:52 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:26:52 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] dead Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBDF384D6@batman.Bluegrass.Board> I just received the latest emails on this list and was particularly moved by the message below and can offer a "second" to it - I absolutely fall in this camp and am thrilled that others feel the same way. I look forward to future discussions among we "lay" folk...I have read several reviews of Peter Kramer's new book about depression and keep thinking about "Love in the Ruins" and wonder if Kramer EVER really read it.... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of chaslow53 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:29 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] dead Well, it is obviously true that the list is not as active as it once was. I think there are many of us (we exchange private e-mails from time to time, where you smarter folk can't catch us) who are fans of the novels and don't really have a great interest in the philosophy. I'm not sure what WP would have thought of us, but there it is. And even of those of us interested in the novels, there appear to be two groups. The academics are ever eager to trace sources and influences, but the "layfolk" are more interested in using the novels to help answer WP's "ordinary Thursday afternoon at 4:00" conundrum: how is it that we can spend the morning reading philosophy and history and theology and fiction and walk away from it with no idea at all of how we are to lead our lives after lunch? Two historical/literary thoughts present themselves here. * William Buckley is reported to have said that he read Moby Dick at 55 and it changed his life. I cannot vouch for that, either that he said it or that it changed his life. I speak here as one who edifies, not with authority. What I can say is that I read The Moviegoer at 52 and it changed my life. I am interested in an exchange of ideas, not necessarily restricted to that sort of reaction, of what the Percy novels mean in the individual lives of those who read and contemplate them. To the extent that the novels broaden our understanding of the "dark journey," they are valuable; they become even more valuable when we understand how they affect others as well. * John Henry Newman was the author of A Grammar of Assent, The Idea of a University and a thousand papers on points of Church history and doctrine so austere and obscure that we are staggered to this day to contemplate his output. Yet when he was made a Cardinal, he chose as his motto something that showed a side of him that none of us today would associate with him: Cor ad cor loquitur, the heart speaks to the heart. So, too, Walker Percy wrote novels whose message, whether in Binx's relationship with his mother or in Tom Moore's relationship with his second (Presbyterian!) wife or in Lancelot's pipe-clanking with is fellow inmate, could not be clearer: cor ad cor loquitur. I'm not saying that this should move us to sentimental essays based not on WP's novels but on sociological flights with only the remotest connection. I am just saying that there are a lot of us who read and treasure the novels because of their expression of what Binx experienced as "God's importunate grace" and discussions which are too philosophical or too technical are not going to grab us, because we are neither philosophers nor academics. That's why you don't hear from that group too very often. Damn, I guess I am intent on retaining my amateur status! Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 3 15:29:35 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:29:35 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBDF384DB@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Warren Beatty said almost exactly the same thing about his first encounter with Elizabeth Taylor. I should have been so lucky... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:02 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * I've enjoyed today's flurry of postings on this list. I definitely fall into the 'lay' category -- perhap sub-lay -- that one of you mentioned. I really can't contribute to this academic-oriented crowd, but I enjoy reading the thoughts of those who are, by profession, able to spend time thinking seriously about Percy and his connections to literature, semiotics, Catholicism, and 4 pm angst, and who are willing to share their observations. Perhaps one of you will take a bite at this: I've been thinking about the scene early in The Moviegoer where Binx sees William Holden on the street, and Percy describes the peculiar power of the celebrity image. I'm in mind of this as I've been engaged in discussion recentlywith others about Lance Armstrong. This led to a discussion about 'true heroes and mere celebrity,' and the paucity of - and cynical fear of - the former, and the overload in our culture of the latter. We spoke about Andy Warhol's use of the celebrity image in the same way that he used a Brillo Soap Pad box, and how these images are at one and the same time trivial, while also serving as symbols that trigger other less-than-conscious references. I'm fascinated not by celebrities themselves, but by how they effect us. We live, it has been said, in a time in which we see more images in a day than rural Victorians would view in a lifetime. What are the implications of this? What did Percy think about this? I once saw Elizabeth Taylor in a Musuem cafeteria getting a cup of coffee (30 years ago, when she was still beautiful), and my recognition of her (instanteous) took my breath away. Why was that? Is the disconnect or chasm between celebrity and hero akin to the illusion of happiness and the state of 'alertness, awareness, engagement,' that chaslow53 at aol.com spoke about? While the former is fleeting but seductive, the latter is genuine but difficult. Let's hear from those of you far more knowledgeable about Percy on this. Karl -----Original Message----- From: chaslow53 at aol.com [mailto:chaslow53 at aol.com] Sent: Sun Jul 31 16:39:52 2005 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] Some Thoughts on The Moviegoer I shall see to it, by making you all read the thoughts set out below, that no one ever again complains about inactivity on this list! As I mentioned in a previous posting, I first read The Movieoer at the age of fifty-two (I have shoes and neckties older than some people on this list), and it changed my life. Without going into any detail about how it changed my life--as Justice Rhenquist fanously said, that's for me to know and you to find out--I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the book, and I would be grateful for any reactions, either to the list or privately, about the views I am formulating but which are far from complete. I'm not sure that novels, good ones anyway, have a message that is intended by the author and more or less automatically picked up by astute readers. One of the interesting things about literature, in fact, is how authors change their minds about their own books over the years and how readers can come to startlingly different conclusions about books. With those prefatory remarks, I have come to see an element in The Moviegoer that is clearer and clearer to me with each rereading. There is a strong message in the book about happiness: it is in most cases impossible to grasp, both as a concept and as a reality. Further, it is largely irrelevant. To be alert, engaged, aware, these states of being are more important, and more real, than to be happy. And finally, there is only the most accidental relationship between our plans and actions and what we hope will be our happines. Let us take Kate as our first example. Binx, by the end of the book, is pleased to marry her, even though they both realize that there is virtually no chance that she will ever attain a measure of happiness, and even in daily life she will be a constant and inevitable burden to Binx. Not only is Binx's mother not a candidate for happiness, it is specifically disavowed on her behalf. She employs all her resources, including religion, in the "canny management of the shocks of life." Aunt Emily is so wrapped up in her Stoic philosophy, with its "lost cause-Southern" tint, that she positively embraces failure in its historic dimension. Binx himself sets the terms of his search in such a way that happines cannot possibly be the result. Instead, it is an engaged awareness that is his goal. <> The two difficulties to be dealt with before declaring this attitude to be comprehensive are Uncle Jules (He is an exemplary Catholic, but it is hard to know why he takes the trouble. For the world he lives in, the City of Man, is so pleasant that the City of God must hold little in store for him.) and Mercer. All things considered, I wonder if we can say that WP hides an important clue for us in an off-hand thought by Binx on his way home from the Gulf with Sharon: Joy and sadness come by turns, I know now. Beauty and bravery make you sad, and victory breaks your heart. But life goes on, and on we go... I plan on expanding these thoughts into a full-blown essay one day, but any thoughts, criticisms (I have a wife and two daughters, aged twenty-one and seventeen, so do not think that you can say anything to offend me) or suggestions you have are welcome. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York ************************************************************************ ************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************ ************************ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wriddick at usa.net Wed Aug 3 18:17:18 2005 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:17:18 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] dead In-Reply-To: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBDF384D6@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 284 bytes Desc: not available URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 20:21:14 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:21:14 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Moviegoer/Kierkegaard Message-ID: Hello to all, I'm always surprised by the fact that apparently most readers of The Moviegoer pass by the key to the novel without seeming to notice -perhaps because it is outside the novel proper, in the Kierkegaard quote after the title page. If you take it off the shelf and read the quote, I think you'll understand what I mean -and how some obscure or misleading points and characters fall into place. By the way, I wonder also how many of the critics have taken the trouble to engage in earnest conversation with "The Sickness Unto Death"... (as undoubtedly Percy did, among other things). All best wishes from Caracas, Julio -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From wpercy2 at ibiblio.org Wed Aug 3 21:03:53 2005 From: wpercy2 at ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:03:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] FW: Countdown to a Meltdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > From: "William Gregory Holden" > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:27:00 -0400 > To: > Subject: [percy-l] Countdown to a Meltdown > > Julio, > > > > Would you share the article ?Countdown to a Meltdown? with me? I?ve been > looking all over and can?t find the full article. I don?t know you but a > thread popped up discussing the article with your name on it and you said you > might have the full text electronically. Would greatly appreciate it as I > bought the newsstand but would like to share the article with a professor if > mine! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > Greg > > > > W. Gregory Holden > > 2461 Quarry Lake Drive > > Columbus, Ohio 43204 > > 614.475.8555 > > william.holden.03 at denison.edu > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "William Gregory Holden" Subject: [percy-l] Countdown to a Meltdown Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:27:00 -0400 Size: 6198 URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Aug 4 02:21:25 2005 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:21:25 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Moviegoer/Kierkegaard References: Message-ID: Seems to me like the s.k. quote is a big clue pointing toward the stage Binx finally enters, if you consider the quote in its full original context, at least. ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:21 PM Subject: [percy-l] Moviegoer/Kierkegaard Hello to all, I'm always surprised by the fact that apparently most readers of The Moviegoer pass by the key to the novel without seeming to notice -perhaps because it is outside the novel proper, in the Kierkegaard quote after the title page. If you take it off the shelf and read the quote, I think you'll understand what I mean -and how some obscure or misleading points and characters fall into place. By the way, I wonder also how many of the critics have taken the trouble to engage in earnest conversation with "The Sickness Unto Death"... (as undoubtedly Percy did, among other things). All best wishes from Caracas, Julio -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Tue Aug 16 13:02:35 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:02:35 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Elliott Message-ID: <1124211755.43021c2b623b0@webmail.iu.edu> Someone on the this list mentioned Carl Elliott's Better than Well. If someone has read it and is willing to share his/her insights into it, I'd appreciate it (especially how his ideas might relate to Percy). I read the description and thought about using it in a class next spring. So, if anyone would like to throw out some ideas about it, we might have a nice discussion on the book. (My copy just came today and I haven't had a chance to start it yet. And with syllabi to prepare by next week, I probably won't have time until after next week. But I would like to see what others think of it.) Thanks. -David From RhuL at gwm.sc.edu Tue Aug 16 13:19:19 2005 From: RhuL at gwm.sc.edu (Lawrence Rhu) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:19:19 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Elliott Message-ID: Dear David, I mentioned it with praise and plan to use it when I teach a medical humanities course next spring. I've hardly a moment now to go on about it, but I think where it mostly differs from Percy would be in the idea of the self that you can abstract from it. Elliott writes repeatedly about the "feedback loop" involved particularly re medical diagnoses and recently available medication but more broadly about the invasive and appropriative ways that modern media and advertising possess the self/possess us * or should I say dispossess us, often under the guise of celebrating our mastery and control. I think he's right about all of that, but it feels different from Percy to me inasmuch as "the sovereignty of the self," however shakey, grandiose, even untenable that may be still leaves room for intuition, following hunches, etc. I mean where does the self stand, on what ground, to know that about the self and other selves (the feedback loop business...is anybody out of it? are some just more prone to acting like they know something we don't? They don't convince me, even though they've got a point)? As Thoreau puts it, one can be beside oneself in a sane sense. Is what happens to Binx when the idea of a search dawns on him merely an illusion, an implant? Same for Lancelot? But I can't continue. Life is making other demands on me now. The readings of Percy in Elliot are terrific, by the way. Larry Lawrence F. Rhu Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 Tel: 803 777 0144 Fax: 803 777 9064 Email: rhul at sc.edu >>> dabeck at iupui.edu 8/16/2005 1:02:35 PM >>> Someone on the this list mentioned Carl Elliott's Better than Well. If someone has read it and is willing to share his/her insights into it, I'd appreciate it (especially how his ideas might relate to Percy). I read the description and thought about using it in a class next spring. So, if anyone would like to throw out some ideas about it, we might have a nice discussion on the book. (My copy just came today and I haven't had a chance to start it yet. And with syllabi to prepare by next week, I probably won't have time until after next week. But I would like to see what others think of it.) Thanks. -David -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From karey at kareyperkins.com Tue Aug 16 16:12:46 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:12:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Elliott References: <1124211755.43021c2b623b0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <00a701c5a29e$de6b3eb0$0301000a@220acadf9550KP> Elliott has another book: A Philosophical Disease: Bioethics, Culture and Identity. It also mentions Percy. Has anyone read that and would anyone recommend that over the "Better than Well" book? Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: dabeck at iupui.edu To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:02 PM Subject: [percy-l] Elliott Someone on the this list mentioned Carl Elliott's Better than Well. If someone has read it and is willing to share his/her insights into it, I'd appreciate it (especially how his ideas might relate to Percy). I read the description and thought about using it in a class next spring. So, if anyone would like to throw out some ideas about it, we might have a nice discussion on the book. (My copy just came today and I haven't had a chance to start it yet. And with syllabi to prepare by next week, I probably won't have time until after next week. But I would like to see what others think of it.) Thanks. -David -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wpercy2 at ibiblio.org Fri Aug 19 08:45:27 2005 From: wpercy2 at ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:45:27 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Test: ignore Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Mon Aug 22 09:35:00 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:35:00 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Fw: schadenfreude: Dictionary.com Word of the Day Message-ID: <001201c5a71e$4b7a2240$1800a8c0@220acadf9550KP> ----- Original Message ----- From: Doctor Dictionary To: Dictionary.com Word of the Day Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: schadenfreude: Dictionary.com Word of the Day Word of the Day for Monday August 22, 2005 schadenfreude \SHOD-n-froy-duh\, noun: A malicious satisfaction obtained from the misfortunes of others. That the report of Sebastian Imhof's grave illness might also have been tinged with Schadenfreude appears not to have crossed Lucas's mind. --Steven Ozment, [1]Flesh and Spirit He died three years after me -- cancer too -- and at that time I was still naive enough to imagine that what the afterlife chiefly provided were unrivalled opportunities for unbeatable gloating, unbelievable schadenfreude. --Will Self, [2]How The Dead Live Somewhere out there, Pi supposed, some UC Berkeley grad students must be shivering with a little Schadenfreude of their own about what had happened to her. --Sylvia Brownrigg, [3]The Metaphysical Touch The historian Peter Gay -- who felt Schadenfreude as a Jewish child in Nazi-era Berlin, watching the Germans lose coveted gold medals in the 1936 Olympics -- has said that it "can be one of the great joys of life." --Edward Rothstein, "Missing the Fun of a Minor Sin," [4]New York Times, February 5, 2000 _________________________________________________________ Schadenfreude comes from the German, from Schaden, "damage" + Freude, "joy." It is often capitalized, as it is in German. References 1. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0140291989/ref=nosim/lexico 2. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0802138489/ref=nosim/lexico 3. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0312263570/ref=nosim/lexico 4. http://www.nytimes.com/ Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=schadenfreude Note: Audio pronunciation available only to Premium members. To learn more about the benefits of Premium membership, visit our site: http://dictionary.reference.com/premium/?r=9 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Supersize your brain with Dictionary.com Premium! https://secure.reference.com/cgi-bin/premium/giftpurchase.pl _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ You are currently subscribed to Dictionary.com Word of the Day as: karey1 at charter.net To subscribe to the list by email, send a blank message to: join-WordoftheDay at lists.lexico.com To unsubscribe via email, send a blank message to: leave-wordoftheday-2692916L at lists.lexico.com Subscriptions can be turned on and off from the Web at http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/list/ Dictionary.com Word of the Day http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/ (C) 2005 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. 65 Pine Ave, #319 Long Beach, CA 90802 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 06:36:05 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:36:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: Dear friends, In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living in a terrorist superpower, by now? Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments, but also in that people like this "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department conveniently forgot). What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has control over thousands of nuclear warheads? With all best wishes, Julio PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From bluegrassboy913 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 12:34:29 2005 From: bluegrassboy913 at yahoo.com (Aaron Keith Harris) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824163430.2411.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> You're kidding, right? --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people > like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that > Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > Aaron Harris No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at the moment, please direct all correspondence to my permanent address at: 4300 State Route 235 Fairborn OH 45324 mobile # 937-825-0204 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 24 12:38:40 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD010ECA87@batman.Bluegrass.Board> I must be confused - I thought this was a Walker Percy discussion group???? -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Keith Harris Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:34 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? You're kidding, right? --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people > like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that > Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > Aaron Harris No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at the moment, please direct all correspondence to my permanent address at: 4300 State Route 235 Fairborn OH 45324 mobile # 937-825-0204 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From marcus at loyno.edu Wed Aug 24 13:38:42 2005 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:42 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <430cb0a2.262.861a6.3161@loyno.edu> Okay, I agree that we don't need this topic to cope with the dogdays while we await a hurricane to blow away the heat and southern Louisiana, but, if I may presume to speak for WP, he might have demurred to Julio by reminding us all that in 1973 (?) he wrote a portrait of America split between ranting knotheads and bumbling liberals that was on the brink of collapse and civil war. Welcome to Love in the Ruins. Marcus Smith New Orleans By the way, Julio, I think American armies in that novel are fighting a protracted guerilla war in South America. Ecuador? PS Not a Bush fan, by the way. Nor do I care at all about Mullah Pat. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Dye, Steve" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:40 -0400 > I must be confused - I thought this was a Walker Percy > discussion group???? > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Aaron Keith Harris Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:34 > PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > You're kidding, right? > > --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > > (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > > that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > > Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people > > like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > > belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > > assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that > > Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > > can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > > his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > > that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > > the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > > here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > > -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > > only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available > > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > Aaron Harris > > No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at > the moment, please direct all correspondence to my > permanent address at: > > 4300 State Route 235 > Fairborn OH 45324 > mobile # 937-825-0204 > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile > phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 24 13:48:42 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:48:42 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD010ECB03@batman.Bluegrass.Board> I think Percy would also recommend a little Early Times for Julio... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:39 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Okay, I agree that we don't need this topic to cope with the dogdays while we await a hurricane to blow away the heat and southern Louisiana, but, if I may presume to speak for WP, he might have demurred to Julio by reminding us all that in 1973 (?) he wrote a portrait of America split between ranting knotheads and bumbling liberals that was on the brink of collapse and civil war. Welcome to Love in the Ruins. Marcus Smith New Orleans By the way, Julio, I think American armies in that novel are fighting a protracted guerilla war in South America. Ecuador? PS Not a Bush fan, by the way. Nor do I care at all about Mullah Pat. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Dye, Steve" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:40 -0400 > I must be confused - I thought this was a Walker Percy > discussion group???? > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Aaron Keith Harris Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:34 > PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > You're kidding, right? > > --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > > (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > > that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > > Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people > > like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > > belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > > assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that > > Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > > can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > > his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > > that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > > the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > > here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > > -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > > only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available > > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > Aaron Harris > > No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at > the moment, please direct all correspondence to my > permanent address at: > > 4300 State Route 235 > Fairborn OH 45324 > mobile # 937-825-0204 > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile > phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 14:06:10 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:06:10 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <20050824163430.2411.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050824163430.2411.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Aaron, Kindly have a look at the following and then decide who might be kidding: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez.1534/index.html plus http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531742,00.html?gusrc=rss My very personal view is that we are rushing into chaos with fundamentalists of all sorts ruling this poor planet. Somehow I'm reminded of Orwell's "1984" and Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451", not to mention Doris Lessing's "Shikasta" -all of which bear a re-reading in the light of what's going on everywhere... Best wishes, Julio PS. Again, as some of you very well know, I'm not precisely a fan of Mr. Ch?vez -but that doesn't mean I'm very tranquil or happy with the likes of Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld or the pious Mr. Robertson. On 8/24/05, Aaron Keith Harris wrote: > You're kidding, right? > > --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > > (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > > that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > > Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people > > like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > > belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > > assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that > > Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > > can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > > his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > > that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > > the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > > here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > > -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > > only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available > > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > Aaron Harris > > No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at the moment, please direct all correspondence to my permanent address at: > > 4300 State Route 235 > Fairborn OH 45324 > mobile # 937-825-0204 > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Aug 24 14:16:33 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:16:33 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC22128E0@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * " .... The centre cannot hold/ .... The best lack all convictions, while the worst/ Are full of passionate intensity." Yeats -- The Second Coming -----Original Message----- From: marcus at loyno.edu [mailto:marcus at loyno.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:39 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Okay, I agree that we don't need this topic to cope with the dogdays while we await a hurricane to blow away the heat and southern Louisiana, but, if I may presume to speak for WP, he might have demurred to Julio by reminding us all that in 1973 (?) he wrote a portrait of America split between ranting knotheads and bumbling liberals that was on the brink of collapse and civil war. Welcome to Love in the Ruins. Marcus Smith New Orleans By the way, Julio, I think American armies in that novel are fighting a protracted guerilla war in South America. Ecuador? PS Not a Bush fan, by the way. Nor do I care at all about Mullah Pat. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Dye, Steve" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:40 -0400 > I must be confused - I thought this was a Walker Percy discussion > group???? > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Keith > Harris Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:34 PM To: Percy-L: Literary > and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > You're kidding, right? > > --- J Rivas-Pita wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you > > (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize > > that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la > > Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people > > like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly > > belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to > > assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that > > Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department > > can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to > > his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network > > that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and > > the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone > > here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush > > -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if > > only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, > > 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available > > at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > Aaron Harris > > No matter where I actually may be living or adventuring at the moment, > please direct all correspondence to my permanent address at: > > 4300 State Route 235 > Fairborn OH 45324 > mobile # 937-825-0204 > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile > phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From JHForest at cs.com Wed Aug 24 15:16:10 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:16:10 EDT Subject: [percy-l] U.S.: Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <19b.3aae37ed.303e217a@cs.com> Dear Julio, While I sympathize with your outrage regarding many US policies, please bear in mind that this is not the US foreign policy discussion list but the Walker Percy List. What hold this list together is a shared interest in the writings of Walker Percy. If you want to start a list in which discussion is focused on some other topic, you are of course welcome to do so, but this is not the place. friendly greetings, Jim Forest In a message dated 8/24/2005 8:06:30 PM Romance Daylight Time, juliorivas at gmail.com writes: > Kindly have a look at the following and then decide who might be kidding: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez.1534/index.html > > plus > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531742,00.html?gusrc=rss > > My very personal view is that we are rushing into chaos with > fundamentalists of all sorts ruling this poor planet. Somehow I'm > reminded of Orwell's "1984" and Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451", not to > mention Doris Lessing's "Shikasta" -all of which bear a re-reading in > the light of what's going on everywhere... > > Best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Again, as some of you very well know, I'm not precisely a fan of > Mr. Ch?vez -but that doesn't mean I'm very tranquil or happy with the > likes of Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld or the pious Mr. Robertson. > * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 24 15:19:23 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:19:23 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S.: Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD010ECB9A@batman.Bluegrass.Board> And make yourself a toddy and watch the sun go down tonight.... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of JHForest at cs.com Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 3:16 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S.: Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Julio, While I sympathize with your outrage regarding many US policies, please bear in mind that this is not the US foreign policy discussion list but the Walker Percy List. What hold this list together is a shared interest in the writings of Walker Percy. If you want to start a list in which discussion is focused on some other topic, you are of course welcome to do so, but this is not the place. friendly greetings, Jim Forest In a message dated 8/24/2005 8:06:30 PM Romance Daylight Time, juliorivas at gmail.com writes: Kindly have a look at the following and then decide who might be kidding: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez.1534/index.html plus http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531742,00.html?gusrc=rss My very personal view is that we are rushing into chaos with fundamentalists of all sorts ruling this poor planet. Somehow I'm reminded of Orwell's "1984" and Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451", not to mention Doris Lessing's "Shikasta" -all of which bear a re-reading in the light of what's going on everywhere... Best wishes, Julio PS. Again, as some of you very well know, I'm not precisely a fan of Mr. Ch?vez -but that doesn't mean I'm very tranquil or happy with the likes of Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld or the pious Mr. Robertson. * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 15:22:08 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:22:08 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: Message-ID: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and military strength - considerably. The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but insidiously so. The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, when it was just what America needed. Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear friends, In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living in a terrorist superpower, by now? Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments, but also in that people like this "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department conveniently forgot). What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has control over thousands of nuclear warheads? With all best wishes, Julio PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MorrisJD at aol.com Wed Aug 24 15:56:31 2005 From: MorrisJD at aol.com (MorrisJD at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:56:31 EDT Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <201.883af40.303e2aef@aol.com> HA! Take a look at Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here and tell me there's a dime's worth of difference between W and Berzelius Windrip: _http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html_ (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:39:30 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:39:30 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From padraig at well.com Wed Aug 24 18:54:39 2005 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:39 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <0ACC3E87-BA2D-46AA-A6A8-A17DFEB81F40@well.com> As a Californian I would echo this, (though we in So Cal are only at the $3 mark, some of our northern brethren are suffering more in the pocketbook). As a Percyite and favorer of _The Second Coming_ I would more than agree that a toddy is not the cure, but to ask the questions that ol' Tom Moore would be asking right now. So Julio, drink up but do not be quiet. Patrick On Aug 24, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Karey wrote: > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in > the early 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a > simple check in Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too > comfortably ensconced at my desk to get up right now!) At any > rate, as you also all know, while he was there, Percy met and was > much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their loyalty, devotion, > sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. And > Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > real reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these > youth had something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one > can only imagine what he felt inside about his earlier misguided > admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war > according to Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not > just by the church, but by the government and the military as well, > by the way). Jimmy Carter declared it an unjust war - right up > into the night before we attacked, when he reneged in a front page > article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, I can only imagine > due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On almost every > point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists > such as Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. > Evidence continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political > genius-machine was extremely effectively at manipulating public > perception and spinning the message to hide the real situation... > that in itself is a dissertation too lengthy to document here, but > articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the July 17, 2005, New > York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In fact, most > people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and Iraq > - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has > sidetracked us from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in > Afghanistan) and increased terrorist activity, as well as further > incited hard feelings towards American - even our allies are > starting to hate us! Since when did France become a country to > despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail not at all > unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather than > asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better > course of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of > Early Times and take a close look at themselves and the actions of > their government and think very carefully before they cast their > vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and > unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while > scapegoats are being used (the MP reservists involved) to take the > blame, in fact, it was not an isolated incident, it was sanctioned > from above (how far above?), and these enlisted reservists were > merely part-timers whose real career was something far different - > they learned such torture techniques because they were trained (by > the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay > (and who knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is > "antiquated." This by the way is just what we know - we were never > shown the "worst" abuses; those pictures were withheld from us, and > do you think that just because playful digital cameras have not > caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, > Chairman of the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission > (www.brac.gov). He was on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone > - with Principi vowing (and delivering) "honesty and transparency" > in all the commission's deliberations and decisions. By the way, > Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than doubled the > recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not > strengthened the United States from future attacks, it has weakened > us - and our economic and military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - > the logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a > characteristics of fascist states - the building up of nationalism > and military fervor through inciting fear in the people. In fact, > terrorism has gotten worse since and because of the Iraqui war. > You get what you give. But, as part of the package and by > necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and group > camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the > emotions of the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football > game or the Hitler Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We > don't even WANT to think critically about it, for it satisfies a > deep need inside of us - but insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What > compels us most, what determines our actions and motivations and > neuroses and desires most, is our sublimated terror of death - our > individual deaths - which we all know is coming, yet rarely think > about consciously (or most of us rarely think about). So one > answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for > which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some kind of > affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can > the neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a > larger and higher wholeness as religion has always > represented" (Becker, 198-1999). Out of this, comes meaning, > purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. The problem is > this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent (and > not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only > God is), then we must logically be on the other side of something > else - we have enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us > meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in > life, to a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like > the Hitler Youth. Has anyone noticed the great purpose and > conviction with which Bush and his cronies proceed forward? Little > reflection, lots of purpose. That has been spun as positive - in > fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a foreign wife no > less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, when it > was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our > own citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely > monitored and have lost many of our rights to privacy). > Nationalism, most obviously, is never transcendent. The patriotism > in America today - at the expense of others' (yes, even prisoners') > rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio Rivas-Pita is on the > money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do > well to act with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful > attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South > Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country. In a global > economy, to act as though we are cowboys from Texas - claiming what > we want through might and force - is to act as though we are brutes > and boors. It is also to eventually fail because the might and > force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. Our days of > global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher than > the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's > in the 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to > consider any of that - it is not a forward thinking administration, > it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in > California (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made > the connection? > > Karey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 19:04:13 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:04:13 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <0ACC3E87-BA2D-46AA-A6A8-A17DFEB81F40@well.com> References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> <0ACC3E87-BA2D-46AA-A6A8-A17DFEB81F40@well.com> Message-ID: Dear Patrick, Sorry about the $ 3 and more :( But just in case anybody in the list gets any wrong ideas, those petrodollars are not making Venezuelans rich: in fact, since Mr. Ch?vez came into power back in 1999 there are a lot more poor people than before (myself include petrodollars and all... And I still can't get any $ to buy books from Amazon as I used to in the past, but have to depend on kind friends who buy them and send them to me. As you surely will realize, I'm no member of the party! (no pun intended). With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Patrick Lynch wrote: > As a Californian I would echo this, (though we in So Cal are only at the $3 > mark, some of our northern brethren are suffering more in the pocketbook). > As a Percyite and favorer of _The Second Coming_ I would more than agree > that a toddy is not the cure, but to ask the questions that ol' Tom Moore > would be asking right now. So Julio, drink up but do not be quiet. > > Patrick > > > On Aug 24, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 19:20:40 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:20:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most "off." There is a T-shirt for American travelers: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes KP ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Wed Aug 24 20:18:06 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:18:06 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050825001746.UEAR5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Well I was not going to weigh in on this conversation but: The CNN story stated: "But Venezuela's ambassador to the United States, Bernardo Alvarez, said Robertson was "no ordinary private citizen" and demanded the White House strongly condemn the remarks. I will beg to differ--he is an ordinary private citizen-- He does not reflect the views of me or many many many other Americans--in fact even being in the slam middle of the Bible Belt of the rural South, I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with his statement. (most of course have not even heard about it). Bob Dole had it right Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, who ran against Robertson for the GOP presidential nomination in 1988, called the comments "stupid" and "ludicrous." "It's hard to figure out what Pat Robertson is going to say next," Dole said. "Hard to believe anybody can make Chavez a sympathetic-looking figure, but maybe Robertson can do it." That pretty much sums it up, he is stupid and ludicrous--but he still has freedom of speech. Many of Karey's observations are equally stupid and ludicrous. It is pretty obvious that his " "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to live" is the defeat of the present administration. Karey states "then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) It is obvious that he is slipping down the same slope as the right-wing nuts. He only has a different enemy. Karey states "Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose." Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which the left proceed forward? The whole concept of globalism is a complete abdication to the so called "experts", an abdication of sovereignty. Karey states we ought to "to pay careful attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country." I am not so sure--I think we need to examine our country ourselves, change what we see as wrong, protect what we see as right, and then if the rest of the world's opinion of us is bad, so be it. To be talked down to by the Japanese, who only 50 years ago were the most brutal power that had existed and were responsible for countless atrocities, by the Germans, who were responsible for the holocaust, by the French, where Napoleon was born and caused the World untold misery, by the British who subjugated India and half the rest of the world, by the Russians who subjugated another half of the world, by the Middle Eastern Islamizes who treat their women like cattle, or by the South Americans who think we dominate them but have only taken by force a small bit of northern Mexico. Our country was born from a colony, and by and large we are not the Colonialists. We have plenty to be ashamed of, to ask forgiveness for--but we have at least moved in a general direction of redress of our sins. I was born as a white in the segregated South, my wife now is a teacher assistant for a black school teacher. Things have changed--movement has been made. The actions of America did not bring about the mess in Venezuela--if indeed it is a mess--it was, from what I understand, a system of government which allowed a massive disparity between the rich and the poor. Despite the downward trend in this country on that score, there are many opportunities for normal citizens--those opportunities from what I understand simply do not exist in much of Latin America. But it is not the United States' fault. Europe only exists as a non-facist place because of America, Japan is more economically successful than the the US because we enabled her to be, China is going to be the dominant economic power because they have shed their communist predilections a bit, they have nonporous natural and human resources, and because they have unfettered access to the American consumer market, the Euro is stronger than the dollar because America gave them their freedom form the Nazis, helped them rebuild themselves, and for over 60 years provided them an umbrella of safety from their pugnacious neighbor. Nations, because they are groups of individuals, are not really the answer--person to person, individual to individual is. And perhaps an Early Times is a good way to start that conversation. I would love to sit down and have an Early Times with Karey--eventhough he/she? Is completely off my political spectrum, or Julio who so vehemently attacked my country. Now I have vented, and would like to return to Percy. Tommy Armstrong "If you're a big enough fool to climb a tree and like a cat refuse to come down, then someone who loves you has to make as big a fool of himself to rescue you." W Percy -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:40 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the > early 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple > check in Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably > ensconced at my desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also > all know, while he was there, Percy met and was much enamored of the > "Hitler Youth" for their loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > real reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth > had something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only > imagine what he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war > according to Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just > by the church, but by the government and the military as well, by the > way). Jimmy Carter declared it an unjust war - right up into the > night before we attacked, when he reneged in a front page article in > the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, I can only imagine due to > political pressure. What makes it unjust? On almost every point of > the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such > as Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political > genius-machine was extremely effectively at manipulating public > perception and spinning the message to hide the real situation... > that in itself is a dissertation too lengthy to document here, but > articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the July 17, 2005, New York > Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In fact, most people > acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and Iraq - the > only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked > us from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) > and increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard > feelings towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! > Since when did France become a country to despise? Hence, I find > Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail not at all unusual, rather, it is very much > the norm overseas, and rather than asking him to take a drink of Early > Times, I think a far better course of action is for Americans to put > down their own bottles of Early Times and take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being > used (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was > not an isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far > above?), and these enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose > real career was something far different - they learned such torture > techniques because they were trained (by the CIA and the military) in > such techniques, and the higher ups have said what to this and to > similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who knows where else)? That > the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the way is just what > we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those pictures were > withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman > of the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission > (www.brac.gov). He was on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - > with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's > deliberations and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base > closings more than doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous > rounds of base closings - combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq > War has not strengthened the United States from future attacks, it has > weakened us - and our economic and military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a > characteristics of fascist states - the building up of nationalism and > military fervor through inciting fear in the people. In fact, > terrorism has gotten worse since and because of the Iraqui war. You > get what you give. But, as part of the package and by necessity to > accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and group camaraderie > (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined carefully, > logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of the > moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What > compels us most, what determines our actions and motivations and > neuroses and desires most, is our sublimated terror of death - our > individual deaths - which we all know is coming, yet rarely think > about consciously (or most of us rarely think about). So one answer > is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to > live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some kind of affirmative > collective ideology in which the person can perform the living drama > of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the neurotic > come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not > transcendent (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in > religious denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, > only God is), then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in > life, to a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush > and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. > That has been spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. > Kerry's globalism (a foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections > were spun as a detriment, when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely > monitored and have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, > most obviously, is never transcendent. The patriotism in America > today - at the expense of others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well > to act with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful > attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South > Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country. In a global > economy, to act as though we are cowboys from Texas - claiming what we > want through might and force - is to act as though we are brutes and > boors. It is also to eventually fail because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now > higher than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the > U.S., China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. > Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Aug 24 20:23:13 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:23:13 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A029@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Karey: I'm not sure what your preamble on Hitler Youth Corp means, except perhaps as an attempt to bring Walker Percy into the discussion. I suspect it is a technique of invidious association, though in what sense our country has found a like expression among our youth or in some other sector, escapes me. I would enjoy some clarification on what our current version of the "Hitler Youth Corps" may be. As for The unjust war doctrines are unscientific formulations from the good-faith debates of ethicists. We can all find one to our liking. I've found a few who endorse the war in Iraq, as I do. It may just as persuasively be argued that military action to remove an international crime lord with the equivalent of 17 warrants for his arrest, who had invaded an ally, refused to honor the terms of his surrender from that unprovoked invasion, directed fire against allied planes in a buffer zone designed to protect the northern Kurdish regions of his own land from continuing genocide with toxic weapons, killed more than 250,000 of his own people, some likewise with toxic weapons (a conservative estimate), provided sanctuary to the first bomber of the twin towers, as well as the current second most notorious terrorist in the world, and, if you are to believe the testimony of his chief physicist, had every intent to develop an atomic weapon, and indeed was in negotiations with North Korea as late as the winter of 2003 to purchase one "off the shelf." That is plenty of reason to me. In fact, we were 10 years too late in acting. As for the Pope condemning the Iraq War, I'm afraid that doesn't have much moral heft to me. If I'm correct, the Catholic Church went out of its way to comfort the Nazis. If the Catholic Church lacks the moral clarity to recognize that the serial and grotesque rapacities of a dictator demand forceful interdiction, I'm sorry, but I have no intention to wait around for them to catch up to me. Anyway, I believe such catch-up is inevitable; I'm sure Catholicism is not too far down the "to-do" list of Islamicist fury. As for Abu Ghraib, I believe you are incorrect. It was isolated and was not connected to a higher chain of command. If I am wrong, I would be interested in proof. It was brutish and obscene of course but hardly characteristic of our treatment of prisoners, there or elsewhere. Obviously it cannot be compared to how "prisoners of war" are treated by Islamicists, as those poor souls get their heads sawed off -- something perhaps closer to "a gross and unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva Convention"? Moreover, our incidents of abuse are followed by swift remediation. We are now constructing a new holding facility in Guatanemo Bay, Cuba. It is one of the most salutary aspects of our nation that we learn from our mistakes. Anyway, in the historic scheme of wars, Abu Ghraib barely amounts to a scandal. And then of course, there is the same old claim that we are all being "spun" as a part of a "fascist" fear-mongering. We are manipulated by Karl Rove and "swept along" by vulgar mob sentiments. I can only speak for myself, but I am not. I wonder why it so bewildering to so many to think that people can reasonably and on their own arrive at the decision that a war against terrorists, who have declared their intent to wipe us from the face of the earth, makes basic sense? Somehow we must be "influenced" to believe this? Anyway, I'm curious who is being swept anywhere. More than half of the population currently opposes the war in Iraq. The overwhelming majority of the media opposes it. Most of the free world opposes it. The president has collapsed in the polls. That's a pretty poor job of fascist brainwashing, if you ask me. Karl Rove should be fired. As for Ernest Becker's meditations on the neurotic roots of war, nothing better underscores, with all due respect, the abstractions of academia. If I have a neurosis it is to guarantee that I and/or my fellow citizens don't get our heads chopped off. And my fear or concern doesn't spring from any dark, Freudian recess of anxiety responsible for phantasmal projections of psychosis. It springs from people chopping our heads off. If killing my enemy gives me meaning and purpose, it is a good meaning and purpose, and reflects total sanity, and I am glad of it. Becker belongs high on the bookshelf in this conflict. And to Julio: I would read Orwell a little more closely, especially his essay on wartime England, "The Lion and the Unicorn." You might find his scorn for pacifism rather interesting. Nowhere in your disquisition on our "fascist" state do you address this fundamental question: what do we do in the face of a nihilistic, barbarous, and genuinely fascist movement that wishes both literally and figuratively to decapitate us. A movement which has no interest in sharing this planet with us, and will accept massive self-immolation as a price for our destruction. Until the anti-war movement can address, even admit this, I cannot take any of these arguments seriously - any protests against Don Rumsfeld or Karl Rove or Dick Cheney man nothing to me. They are merely ideological fulminations -- elegant and theoretical and nugatory. They do not help me understand the real threats to my culture or how to answer them. I guess the major "cognitive" divide is simple. Either one takes the position that we are at "war" or we are not at war. I believe we are at war. I believe we will be for many years to come. I also believe that within the next five years most of the world - with the possible exception of academia -- will understand this, to the point at which there will simply won't be too many articles about Abu Ghraibs, or WMDs, or fascist propagandists, or anything of the like. Not to say that there should not be. But it will be widely understood that we are in a war for the survival of all that we value and cherish in western civilization. This is the first stages of that war. That is simply my opinion. Now, as for what Walker Percy would say to our current problems? I do not know. I only know that he prized and defended western liberal values, science, art, education, freedom of speech, "truth and beauty and suchlike." I can't help but think he would have had some form of intelligent and forceful response to a barbaric movement dedicated to snuffing them all out. It may very well be that he would have opposed the war in Iraq as either impracticable or stupid. But he would have offered some kind of alternative. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:21 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most "off." There is a T-shirt for American travelers: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes KP ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 21:26:07 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:26:07 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: <20050825001746.UEAR5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <003401c5a913$f7c78cd0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Tommy - Julio's "attack," as you call it, was a little less vehement than Pat Robertson's attack on his country's leader, was it not? And, we helped Europe and Japan and others out, sure, (as the saying goes, if it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German) but that by no means exonerates us from our other sins or future responsibilities and good behavior. Just responded at length to Robert, and it's late, so I'll pass on this for now, except to say, hmmm, my gender is mystery? Well, that's as it should be, though a glass of Early Times is always a good idea for debates between friends. More than a couple, however, not so good - debates turn into arguments, or Dorothy Parker poems. Percy had it right in "Bourbon"... KP ----- Original Message ----- From: Tommy Armstrong To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Well I was not going to weigh in on this conversation but: The CNN story stated: "But Venezuela's ambassador to the United States, Bernardo Alvarez, said Robertson was "no ordinary private citizen" and demanded the White House strongly condemn the remarks. I will beg to differ--he is an ordinary private citizen-- He does not reflect the views of me or many many many other Americans--in fact even being in the slam middle of the Bible Belt of the rural South, I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with his statement. (most of course have not even heard about it). Bob Dole had it right Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, who ran against Robertson for the GOP presidential nomination in 1988, called the comments "stupid" and "ludicrous." "It's hard to figure out what Pat Robertson is going to say next," Dole said. "Hard to believe anybody can make Chavez a sympathetic-looking figure, but maybe Robertson can do it." That pretty much sums it up, he is stupid and ludicrous--but he still has freedom of speech. Many of Karey's observations are equally stupid and ludicrous. It is pretty obvious that his " "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to live" is the defeat of the present administration. Karey states "then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) It is obvious that he is slipping down the same slope as the right-wing nuts. He only has a different enemy. Karey states "Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose." Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which the left proceed forward? The whole concept of globalism is a complete abdication to the so called "experts", an abdication of sovereignty. Karey states we ought to "to pay careful attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country." I am not so sure--I think we need to examine our country ourselves, change what we see as wrong, protect what we see as right, and then if the rest of the world's opinion of us is bad, so be it. To be talked down to by the Japanese, who only 50 years ago were the most brutal power that had existed and were responsible for countless atrocities, by the Germans, who were responsible for the holocaust, by the French, where Napoleon was born and caused the World untold misery, by the British who subjugated India and half the rest of the world, by the Russians who subjugated another half of the world, by the Middle Eastern Islamizes who treat their women like cattle, or by the South Americans who think we dominate them but have only taken by force a small bit of northern Mexico. Our country was born from a colony, and by and large we are not the Colonialists. We have plenty to be ashamed of, to ask forgiveness for--but we have at least moved in a general direction of redress of our sins. I was born as a white in the segregated South, my wife now is a teacher assistant for a black school teacher. Things have changed--movement has been made. The actions of America did not bring about the mess in Venezuela--if indeed it is a mess--it was, from what I understand, a system of government which allowed a massive disparity between the rich and the poor. Despite the downward trend in this country on that score, there are many opportunities for normal citizens--those opportunities from what I understand simply do not exist in much of Latin America. But it is not the United States' fault. Europe only exists as a non-facist place because of America, Japan is more economically successful than the the US because we enabled her to be, China is going to be the dominant economic power because they have shed their communist predilections a bit, they have nonporous natural and human resources, and because they have unfettered access to the American consumer market, the Euro is stronger than the dollar because America gave them their freedom form the Nazis, helped them rebuild themselves, and for over 60 years provided them an umbrella of safety from their pugnacious neighbor. Nations, because they are groups of individuals, are not really the answer--person to person, individual to individual is. And perhaps an Early Times is a good way to start that conversation. I would love to sit down and have an Early Times with Karey--eventhough he/she? Is completely off my political spectrum, or Julio who so vehemently attacked my country. Now I have vented, and would like to return to Percy. Tommy Armstrong "If you're a big enough fool to climb a tree and like a cat refuse to come down, then someone who loves you has to make as big a fool of himself to rescue you." W Percy -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:40 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the > early 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple > check in Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably > ensconced at my desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also > all know, while he was there, Percy met and was much enamored of the > "Hitler Youth" for their loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > real reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth > had something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only > imagine what he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war > according to Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just > by the church, but by the government and the military as well, by the > way). Jimmy Carter declared it an unjust war - right up into the > night before we attacked, when he reneged in a front page article in > the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, I can only imagine due to > political pressure. What makes it unjust? On almost every point of > the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such > as Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political > genius-machine was extremely effectively at manipulating public > perception and spinning the message to hide the real situation... > that in itself is a dissertation too lengthy to document here, but > articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the July 17, 2005, New York > Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In fact, most people > acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and Iraq - the > only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked > us from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) > and increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard > feelings towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! > Since when did France become a country to despise? Hence, I find > Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail not at all unusual, rather, it is very much > the norm overseas, and rather than asking him to take a drink of Early > Times, I think a far better course of action is for Americans to put > down their own bottles of Early Times and take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being > used (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was > not an isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far > above?), and these enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose > real career was something far different - they learned such torture > techniques because they were trained (by the CIA and the military) in > such techniques, and the higher ups have said what to this and to > similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who knows where else)? That > the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the way is just what > we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those pictures were > withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman > of the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission > (www.brac.gov). He was on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - > with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's > deliberations and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base > closings more than doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous > rounds of base closings - combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq > War has not strengthened the United States from future attacks, it has > weakened us - and our economic and military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a > characteristics of fascist states - the building up of nationalism and > military fervor through inciting fear in the people. In fact, > terrorism has gotten worse since and because of the Iraqui war. You > get what you give. But, as part of the package and by necessity to > accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and group camaraderie > (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined carefully, > logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of the > moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What > compels us most, what determines our actions and motivations and > neuroses and desires most, is our sublimated terror of death - our > individual deaths - which we all know is coming, yet rarely think > about consciously (or most of us rarely think about). So one answer > is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to > live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some kind of affirmative > collective ideology in which the person can perform the living drama > of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the neurotic > come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not > transcendent (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in > religious denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, > only God is), then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in > life, to a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush > and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. > That has been spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. > Kerry's globalism (a foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections > were spun as a detriment, when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely > monitored and have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, > most obviously, is never transcendent. The patriotism in America > today - at the expense of others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well > to act with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful > attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South > Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country. In a global > economy, to act as though we are cowboys from Texas - claiming what we > want through might and force - is to act as though we are brutes and > boors. It is also to eventually fail because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now > higher than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the > U.S., China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. > Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 21:27:41 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:27:41 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <003c01c5a914$3060d6a0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message See below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Karey: I'm not sure what your preamble on Hitler Youth Corp means, except perhaps as an attempt to bring Walker Percy into the discussion. I suspect it is a technique of invidious association, though in what sense our country has found a like expression among our youth or in some other sector, escapes me. I would enjoy some clarification on what our current version of the "Hitler Youth Corps" may be. It is a direct reference to Julio Rivas-Pita's comment "that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments" and to the fact that what, in retrospect, seems obviously misguided and even evil (Hitler's cause), often, at the time, seems to have many good points. The comparison is that WE are the Hitler Youth, not the youth of our country. Has anyone seen the movie, "The Wave"? As for The unjust war doctrines are unscientific formulations from the good-faith debates of ethicists. Ah, science is the foundation of our ethics and thought? We can all find one to our liking. Logical fallacy - just because other options are present, doesn't provide a logical refutation of the argument just presented. I've found a few who endorse the war in Iraq, as I do. It may just as persuasively be argued that military action to remove an international crime lord with the equivalent of 17 warrants for his arrest, What? No other international criminal leaders in other countries? No other genocidal maniacs? In fact, there are dozens. Why don't we take THEM out? Why Saddam Hussein? Think about it. who had invaded an ally, Ten years ago, that war was over. refused to honor the terms of his surrender from that unprovoked invasion, directed fire against allied planes in a buffer zone designed to protect the northern Kurdish regions of his own land from continuing genocide with toxic weapons, killed more than 250,000 of his own people, some likewise with toxic weapons (a conservative estimate), provided sanctuary to the first bomber of the twin towers, as well as the current second most notorious terrorist in the world, Again - no less than what has been done by dozens of dictators of less politically important countries. When did Sudan become important? When oil was found nearby. Did anyone see Dateline NBC's special on Uganda a couple of nights ago? If we want to help, there are far worse and more chaotic places to help. But, oh wait, Uganda doesn't have any valuable national resources or political importance to the U.S. and, if you are to believe the testimony of his chief physicist, had every intent to develop an atomic weapon, Read "Follow the Uranium" before commenting further. July 17 New York Times. and indeed was in negotiations with North Korea as late as the winter of 2003 to purchase one "off the shelf." And, what are we doing about North Korea by the way? That is plenty of reason to me. In fact, we were 10 years too late in acting. As for the Pope condemning the Iraq War, I'm afraid that doesn't have much moral heft to me. If I'm correct, the Catholic Church went out of its way to comfort the Nazis. If the Catholic Church lacks the moral clarity to recognize that the serial and grotesque rapacities of a dictator demand forceful interdiction, I'm sorry, but I have no intention to wait around for them to catch up to me. Anyway, I believe such catch-up is inevitable; I'm sure Catholicism is not too far down the "to-do" list of Islamicist fury. As for Abu Ghraib, I believe you are incorrect. I am not incorrect - evidence abounds and I'm fairly certain any information I have is not classified - it's common knowledge. In addition, my father was in charge of the Reserves in the South ten years ago and wrote a paper on their "unreadiness" to go to war that was roundly ignored. The things that were done in Abu Ghraib were done also in Guatanemo Bay, and other places - and the ways they were done were similar in fashion and type to each other. And if you don't want to accept that at face value, common sense tells you that is how all scandals work - and military scandals as well, and other than the fact that the Geneva Convention was denounced by the administration as "antiquated" and Senator Joe Biden chastized similar comments in Congress - saying his son was in the military - were he to become a prisoner, what would happen? It was isolated and was not connected to a higher chain of command. If I am wrong, I would be interested in proof. It was brutish and obscene of course but hardly characteristic of our treatment of prisoners, there or elsewhere. Obviously it cannot be compared to how "prisoners of war" are treated by Islamicists, as those poor souls get their heads sawed off -- something perhaps closer to "a gross and unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva Convention"? Moreover, our incidents of abuse are followed by swift remediation. We are now constructing a new holding facility in Guatanemo Bay, Cuba. After many years and many lawsuits filed and much publicity - that has been no swift remediation, it has been a reluctant and forced change. It is one of the most salutary aspects of our nation that we learn from our mistakes. Vietnam? Anyway, in the historic scheme of wars, Abu Ghraib barely amounts to a scandal. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth - one, you say it is horrible and not characteristic, then you say it really wasn't much of a bad thing at all. The problem is people were trained and condoned, then blamed, for this when it became known and political. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? And then of course, there is the same old claim that we are all being "spun" as a part of a "fascist" fear-mongering. We are manipulated by Karl Rove and "swept along" by vulgar mob sentiments. I can only speak for myself, but I am not. I wonder why it so bewildering to so many to think that people can reasonably and on their own arrive at the decision that a war against terrorists, But wait, the terrorists weren't basing their camp and cause in Iraq!! If there was an association there, it was only secondary or tertiary - after Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. You have been "spun" if you are still associating the Iraq with 9/11 terrorists intent to wipe us from the face of the earth! who have declared their intent to wipe us from the face of the earth, makes basic sense? Somehow we must be "influenced" to believe this? Anyway, I'm curious who is being swept anywhere. More than half of the population currently opposes the war in Iraq. The overwhelming majority of the media opposes it. Most of the free world opposes it. The president has collapsed in the polls. That's a pretty poor job of fascist brainwashing, if you ask me. Karl Rove should be fired. If you ask me, yes, I completely agree, Karl Rove should be fired. For different reasons. As for Ernest Becker's meditations on the neurotic roots of war, nothing better underscores, with all due respect, the abstractions of academia. Read the book, then we can discuss it. Before you determine it to be a postmodern rumination on gender deconstruction or some abstract navel-gazing, read it. And it in fact relates to Percy's concerns and pursuits more than anything else in this conversation - the meaning of life - and key to the psychological motivations of most humans. If I have a neurosis it is to guarantee that I and/or my fellow citizens don't get our heads chopped off. And my fear or concern doesn't spring from any dark, Freudian recess of anxiety responsible for phantasmal projections of psychosis. It springs from people chopping our heads off. If killing my enemy gives me meaning and purpose, it is a good meaning and purpose, and reflects total sanity, and I am glad of it. Becker belongs high on the bookshelf in this conflict. And to Julio: I would read Orwell a little more closely, especially his essay on wartime England, "The Lion and the Unicorn." You might find his scorn for pacifism rather interesting. Nowhere in your disquisition on our "fascist" state do you address this fundamental question: what do we do in the face of a nihilistic, barbarous, and genuinely fascist movement that wishes both literally and figuratively to decapitate us. If we become like them, by engaging in their tactics and arguments, the problem multiplies. This is true of individuals as well as nations. A movement which has no interest in sharing this planet with us, and will accept massive self-immolation as a price for our destruction. You discuss, you talk, you converse, you deal, you understand, you listen, you meet needs on both sides. Look at how we handled the end of WWI vs. the end of WWII. And one determination of a "just war" is that it is always as a last resort. The Just War doctrine you would like to portray as some abstract ineffective liberal agenda, but in fact, it is a reasonable and effective and practical way to determine when to go to war. Until the anti-war movement can address, even admit this, I cannot take any of these arguments seriously - any protests against Don Rumsfeld or Karl Rove or Dick Cheney man nothing to me. They are merely ideological fulminations -- elegant and theoretical and nugatory. No one at a top level in the Bush administration ever served time in combat - not Bush, not Cheney, not Rumsfeld, not Rice. (Colin Powell did, but he is gone - I think for a reason.) So, having never seen war, they can easily send other's sons and daughters to war - for abstract causes. Who is the abstracted one now? I imagine many or most of us teach in college - and many of our students have been soldiers. I have many in my class who tell me what it is like over there - one woman retired after 25 years (why 25? you retire after 20, for 1/2 your base pay, or 30 or 2/3 your base pay, but not 25) because of changing military polices and the situation in Iraq now (very dangerous, and more so every day.) They do not help me understand the real threats to my culture or how to answer them. This has been said to be a war of "non-sacrifice" by America's citizens. In WWII, we gave up things, and lifestyles, and people, to help the war. We feel it not one bit here. How is your life different from before the war, other than the content of your daily news (unless of course you have a son, daughter, or relative there). What are you going to do to help preserve your culture? I guess the major "cognitive" divide is simple. Either one takes the position that we are at "war" or we are not at war. Either-or fallacy. Oversimplification. (You can tell I teach logic and critical thinking!!) I believe we are at war. With whom? Or is it an abstract? Terrorism? The comparison of Iraq has been made with the Vietnam war - both were wars against abstractions - the one, communism; the second, terrorism. I believe we will be for many years to come. I also believe that within the next five years most of the world - with the possible exception of academia -- will understand this, to the point at which there will simply won't be too many articles about Abu Ghraibs, or WMDs, or fascist propagandists, or anything of the like. Not to say that there should not be. But it will be widely understood that we are in a war for the survival of all that we value and cherish in western civilization. REALLY??? This is the first stages of that war. That is simply my opinion. Now, as for what Walker Percy would say to our current problems? I do not know. I only know that he prized and defended western liberal values, science, art, education, freedom of speech, "truth and beauty and suchlike." I can't help but think he would have had some form of intelligent and forceful response to a barbaric movement dedicated to snuffing them all out. It may very well be that he would have opposed the war in Iraq as either impracticable or stupid. But he would have offered some kind of alternative. Exactly what the Bush administration did NOT consider. (Alternatives, that is.) And exactly what a Just War demands. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 22:01:50 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:01:50 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: Re the T-shirt part: I didn't vote for Mr. Ch?vez either... :) All best, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is > telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, > since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their > fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had > political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer > to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted > through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they > actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of > their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," > though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. > > Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, > also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in > prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his > actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, > will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same > assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most > "off." > > There is a T-shirt for American travelers: > http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes > > KP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear Karey, > > Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. > Needless to say, I fully agree with you. > (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life > in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., > and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the > U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). > > Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably > not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's > "misquote": > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the > early > > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at > my > > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he > was > > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in > life. > > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > real > > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine > what > > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler > Youth. > > > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according > to > > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, > when > > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and > Constitution, > > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine > was > > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation > too > > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when > did > > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's > e-mail > > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better > course > > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times > and > > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and > these > > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was > something > > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher > ups > > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by > the > > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He > was > > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's > deliberations > > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic > and > > military strength - considerably. > > > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics > of > > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor > through > > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since > and > > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty > and > > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions > of > > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > > insidiously so. > > > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > Becker's > > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger > than > > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform > the > > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, > self-actualization. > > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, > to > > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and > his > > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has > been > > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > > when it was just what America needed. > > > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored > and > > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. > Julio > > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to > act > > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any > of > > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in > California > > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > > > Karey > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J Rivas-Pita > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Aug 24 22:09:31 2005 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:09:31 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: Thanks, Robert, for a lucid and articulate expression of a moderate position. Yes, moderate. And, by the way, we can't have it both ways, Karey. We can't simultaneously stay out of all countries headed by murderous dictators and protect all peoples who are truly living in dystopic societies. While I abhor war and violence (I won't own a gun or have one in my home, for example), it bears pointing out that the lives lost in a valiant effort in the Middle East are far exceeded by the lives taken in the last five years by terrorist actions in our country, in Spain, in England, and in other places. Because terrorists are hard to nail down, the only hope is to cut off the blood supply to the tumor. And frankly, Hussein and his ilk are part of that blood supply. Finally, before bandying about the terrorist label in response to our actions, consider this image--In Iraq, women were protesting that the constitution being considered will not grant them equality. What a journey they've made, to be able to demand equality, when prior to our involvement they had no freedoms, no hope for equality. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Aug 24 22:53:07 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:53:07 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A02C@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Rhonda: a refreshing position. You are the first woman I have heard making the case for women in the middle east. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:10 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Thanks, Robert, for a lucid and articulate expression of a moderate position. Yes, moderate. And, by the way, we can't have it both ways, Karey. We can't simultaneously stay out of all countries headed by murderous dictators and protect all peoples who are truly living in dystopic societies. While I abhor war and violence (I won't own a gun or have one in my home, for example), it bears pointing out that the lives lost in a valiant effort in the Middle East are far exceeded by the lives taken in the last five years by terrorist actions in our country, in Spain, in England, and in other places. Because terrorists are hard to nail down, the only hope is to cut off the blood supply to the tumor. And frankly, Hussein and his ilk are part of that blood supply. Finally, before bandying about the terrorist label in response to our actions, consider this image--In Iraq, women were protesting that the constitution being considered will not grant them equality. What a journey they've made, to be able to demand equality, when prior to our involvement they had no freedoms, no hope for equality. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:13:50 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:13:50 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <20050825001746.UEAR5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> References: <20050825001746.UEAR5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: Dear Tommy, You wrote: " or Julio who so vehemently attacked my country." It is not my habit to attack countries -yours or anyone else's, for that matter. Please do not confuse "country" with Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld et al. As far as I know more than half of the American public are very much opposed to their policies. And do not let yourself be deluded: the real motive for the Irak invasion is a three-letter word: OIL. We haven't seen the avenging zeal of the Bush administration in countless other places where dictators of all sorts prevail. By the way, does anyone know what Mr. Bush is currently doing to help Tibetans regain their land and freedom from their Chinese invaders? Or is this a politically incorrect question? (It might be, especially in view that China -a dictatorship without civil liberties- has of late become The Biggest Market on Earth -long live Kapitalism!) With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Tommy Armstrong wrote: > Well I was not going to weigh in on this conversation but: > > The CNN story stated: > "But Venezuela's ambassador to the United States, Bernardo Alvarez, said > Robertson was "no ordinary private citizen" and demanded the White House > strongly condemn the remarks. > > I will beg to differ--he is an ordinary private citizen-- > > He does not reflect the views of me or many many many other Americans--in > fact even being in the slam middle of the Bible Belt of the rural South, I > have yet to meet anyone who agrees with his statement. (most of course have > not even heard about it). > > Bob Dole had it right > Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, who ran against Robertson for the > GOP presidential nomination in 1988, called the comments "stupid" and > "ludicrous." > > "It's hard to figure out what Pat Robertson is going to say next," Dole > said. "Hard to believe anybody can make Chavez a sympathetic-looking figure, > but maybe Robertson can do it." > > That pretty much sums it up, he is stupid and ludicrous--but he still has > freedom of speech. > > Many of Karey's observations are equally stupid and ludicrous. It is pretty > obvious that his > " "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to live" is the > defeat of the present administration. > Karey states > "then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > It is obvious that he is slipping down the same slope as the right-wing > nuts. He only has a different enemy. > > Karey states "Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which > Bush > and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose." > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which the left > proceed forward? The whole concept of globalism is a complete abdication to > the so called "experts", an abdication of sovereignty. > > Karey states we ought to > "to pay careful attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, > South > Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country." I am not so sure--I > think we need to examine our country ourselves, change what we see as wrong, > protect what we see as right, and then if the rest of the world's opinion of > us is bad, so be it. To be talked down to by the Japanese, who only 50 > years ago were the most brutal power that had existed and were responsible > for countless atrocities, by the Germans, who were responsible for the > holocaust, by the French, where Napoleon was born and caused the World > untold misery, by the British who subjugated India and half the rest of the > world, by the Russians who subjugated another half of the world, by the > Middle Eastern Islamizes who treat their women like cattle, or by the South > Americans who think we dominate them but have only taken by force a small > bit of northern Mexico. Our country was born from a colony, and by and large > we are not the Colonialists. We have plenty to be ashamed of, to ask > forgiveness for--but we have at least moved in a general direction of > redress of our sins. I was born as a white in the segregated South, my wife > now is a teacher assistant for a black school teacher. Things have > changed--movement has been made. The actions of America did not bring about > the mess in Venezuela--if indeed it is a mess--it was, from what I > understand, a system of government which allowed a massive disparity between > the rich and the poor. Despite the downward trend in this country on that > score, there are many opportunities for normal citizens--those opportunities > from what I understand simply do not exist in much of Latin America. But it > is not the United States' fault. > > Europe only exists as a non-facist place because of America, Japan is more > economically successful than the the US because we enabled her to be, China > is going to be the dominant economic power because they have shed their > communist predilections a bit, they have nonporous natural and human > resources, and because they have unfettered access to the American consumer > market, the Euro is stronger than the dollar because America gave them their > freedom form the Nazis, helped them rebuild themselves, and for over 60 > years provided them an umbrella of safety from their pugnacious neighbor. > > > Nations, because they are groups of individuals, are not really the > answer--person to person, individual to individual is. And perhaps an Early > Times is a good way to start that conversation. I would love to sit down and > have an Early Times with Karey--eventhough he/she? Is completely off my > political spectrum, or Julio who so vehemently attacked my country. > > Now I have vented, and would like to return to Percy. > > Tommy Armstrong > > "If you're a big enough fool to climb a tree and like a cat refuse to come > down, then someone who loves you has to make as big a fool of himself to > rescue you." > W Percy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:40 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear Karey, > > Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. > Needless to say, I fully agree with you. > (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in > the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I > grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was > what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). > > Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not > final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's > "misquote": > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the > > early 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple > > check in Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably > > ensconced at my desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also > > all know, while he was there, Percy met and was much enamored of the > > "Hitler Youth" for their loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of > meaning and direction in life. > > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > > real reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth > > had something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only > > imagine what he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the > Hitler Youth. > > > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war > > according to Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just > > by the church, but by the government and the military as well, by the > > way). Jimmy Carter declared it an unjust war - right up into the > > night before we attacked, when he reneged in a front page article in > > the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, I can only imagine due to > > political pressure. What makes it unjust? On almost every point of > > the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such > > as Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political > > genius-machine was extremely effectively at manipulating public > > perception and spinning the message to hide the real situation... > > that in itself is a dissertation too lengthy to document here, but > > articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the July 17, 2005, New York > > Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In fact, most people > > acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and Iraq - the > > only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked > > us from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) > > and increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard > > feelings towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! > > Since when did France become a country to despise? Hence, I find > > Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail not at all unusual, rather, it is very much > > the norm overseas, and rather than asking him to take a drink of Early > > Times, I think a far better course of action is for Americans to put > > down their own bottles of Early Times and take a close look at themselves > and the actions of their government and think very carefully before they > cast their vote in the next election. > > > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being > > used (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was > > not an isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far > > above?), and these enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose > > real career was something far different - they learned such torture > > techniques because they were trained (by the CIA and the military) in > > such techniques, and the higher ups have said what to this and to > > similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who knows where else)? That > > the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the way is just what > > we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those pictures were > > withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful digital > cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman > > of the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission > > (www.brac.gov). He was on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - > > with Principi vowing (and > > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's > > deliberations and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base > > closings more than doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous > > rounds of base closings - combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq > > War has not strengthened the United States from future attacks, it has > > weakened us - and our economic and military strength - considerably. > > > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a > > characteristics of fascist states - the building up of nationalism and > > military fervor through inciting fear in the people. In fact, > > terrorism has gotten worse since and because of the Iraqui war. You > > get what you give. But, as part of the package and by necessity to > > accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and group camaraderie > > (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined carefully, > > logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of the > > moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > > Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What > > compels us most, what determines our actions and motivations and > > neuroses and desires most, is our sublimated terror of death - our > > individual deaths - which we all know is coming, yet rarely think > > about consciously (or most of us rarely think about). So one answer > > is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than ourselves for which to > > live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some kind of affirmative > > collective ideology in which the person can perform the living drama > > of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the neurotic > > come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and higher > wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, > self-actualization. > > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not > > transcendent (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in > > religious denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, > > only God is), then we must logically be on the other side of something > else - we have > > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in > > life, to a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the > Hitler Youth. > > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush > > and his cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. > > That has been spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. > > Kerry's globalism (a foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections > > were spun as a detriment, when it was just what America needed. > > > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely > > monitored and have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, > > most obviously, is never transcendent. The patriotism in America > > today - at the expense of others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and > humanity - smacks of that. Julio > > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well > > to act with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful > > attention to what others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South > > Americans, Asians - feel and think about our country. In a global > > economy, to act as though we are cowboys from Texas - claiming what we > > want through might and force - is to act as though we are brutes and > > boors. It is also to eventually fail because the might and force we think > we have is, quite simply, not there. > > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now > > higher than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the > > U.S., China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's > in the > > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any > of > > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in > California > > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > > > Karey > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J Rivas-Pita > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. > > Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito > Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From chaslow53 at aol.com Wed Aug 24 23:23:16 2005 From: chaslow53 at aol.com (chaslow53 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:23:16 EDT Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <87.2e70df53.303e93a4@aol.com> In a message dated 8/24/2005 10:53:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com writes: You are the first woman I have heard making the case for women in the middle east. Not to inject a vulgar political consideration, but Laura Bush talks about that a couple of times a week. And actually went over there . Sometimes it's the little things: the Iraqi Olympic team won no gold medals at Athens in 2004 and yet--this time--none of them were afraid to go home. Pat Robertson should never open his mouth except to change feet, and what he said about Senor Chavez was silly and stupid, and perhaps a crime. And yet there is something a bit smug about having this discussion ourselves and doing nothing to insure that others can have discussions like this as well. They can now have them in Iraq; there is no telling how much longer they will be able to have them in Venezuela. After all, the world leader Chavez admires most, the Bearded One, has prisons full of political prisoners and a pretty low tolerance for dissent. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 23:45:31 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:45:31 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: <000d01c5a8e1$1f912100$0401000a@220acadf9550KP><00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <00a401c5a927$71349fa0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> The same journey for women needs to be made in many other countries far more - Iraq was, in fact, the most westernized country in the Middle East (including women) with the exception of Turkey (where I lived by the way). I don't expect to have it both ways - or to stay out of all countries. But I don't expect to be led into an unnecessary war based on lies, and based on a tenuous connection at best. You're still connecting terrorism and 9/11 to Iraq... again, it is a much more indirect link than the other connections (countries and terrorist links) that we did not pursue with such vigor. Julio's three letter word is right. I recommend: "Follow the Uranium" - July 17, 2005 - New York Times As far as forcing cultural and political change on a people (most countries in Africa and many in the Middle East are considered at least three generations behind the times when it comes to women's rights, for an example in just one area of life), no one has decided how best to do it or even if it should be done and if so, if it can be successful. (By "no one" I mean the cultural, governmental, and military experts who have studied this and seen it attempted in the past and seen the results and fallout of that - not anyone on this listserv.) This is a philosophical and literary discussion listserv; quite simply, the information to make these decisions are not in the heads - nor the hands - of any of us here. Karey ----- Original Message ----- From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Thanks, Robert, for a lucid and articulate expression of a moderate position. Yes, moderate. And, by the way, we can't have it both ways, Karey. We can't simultaneously stay out of all countries headed by murderous dictators and protect all peoples who are truly living in dystopic societies. While I abhor war and violence (I won't own a gun or have one in my home, for example), it bears pointing out that the lives lost in a valiant effort in the Middle East are far exceeded by the lives taken in the last five years by terrorist actions in our country, in Spain, in England, and in other places. Because terrorists are hard to nail down, the only hope is to cut off the blood supply to the tumor. And frankly, Hussein and his ilk are part of that blood supply. Finally, before bandying about the terrorist label in response to our actions, consider this image--In Iraq, women were protesting that the constitution being considered will not grant them equality. What a journey they've made, to be able to demand equality, when prior to our involvement they had no freedoms, no hope for equality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 00:14:46 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:14:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <003401c5a913$f7c78cd0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <20050825041424.QHL14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Julio's "attack," as you call it, was a little less vehement than Pat Robertson's attack on his country's leader, was it not? Not really, Julio said "Do you realize that you may be living in a terrorist superpower, by now?" Julio was implying that our nation was a "terrorist superpower", Pat Robertson was not an attack on the country of Venezuala, just on its President. Julio included me in his attack and to me that is more vehement. That we invade countries a la Hitler--that is completely bogus. Whether one wants to believe it or not, we and the entire Western World thought Sadaam had WMD's. We were obviously wrong--but all that Sadaam had to do was to open up to free inspections instead of hindering them and we would have had to back off. He was the one who obfuscated the facts--if he had indeed dismantled them, as he apparently did, then why not prove that he had done so. Why not open up to inspections of his palaces, why not let the news media have free reign of the country. He simply thought he could play the game of pretending to have them --and even the perception of him having them--was enough for his purposes. Much the same game that Israel played for years and indeed is still playing--I have never seen any facts that Israel unequivocably has the bomb--they have not tested it to my knowledge, but if her enemies think she has one, she has achieved a great deal of deterrency (sp). By keeping it "well I may have them or I may not, but you will never know--do you want to call my bluff and find out" essentially gives him a great deal of power. He did not think we would ever call his blufff. We did--we really had very little choice. And if we did not believe that he had WMD's, I do not think we would have put all those soldiers through all those horrific gas training exercises--we just did not know because Sadaam would not let us know, and that was an untenable situation for us. We were indeed duped about WMD's, but he allowed us to be duped. He could have laid his cards on the table and shown us what he had--but he chose not to. He tried to finesse a weak hand and failed. Or then again he might have thought he had WMD's and wanted to hide them, but his underlings were too scared to tell him otherwise. He might have been duped by his own people. We were not duped by our own, we were duped by him. As far as how it will work out, it probably will not, because any kind of democratic republic demands that serious compromises have to be made. That is the nature of that form of government, and as a very educated Sunni Iraqi told me in Dubai a few months ago, we (the Iraqis) do not know the art of compromise. He said to me that the US had given the Iraqis a great gift, the elimination of a tyrant--but doubted whether or not it could possibly work out. The competing factions simply have incredible differences in their world views. Just as America was formed with the Great Compromise, 100 years later we had a civil war when those divides became too great and the Great Compromise fell apart. The only way this country has remained a country as long as it has with as diverse a population as it has, has been its ability, built into the Constitution, to demand compromise from competing factions. And the fact that it has the Bill of Rights which gurantees those God given rights. Pure democracy without constitutional guarantees is nothing more than tyranny of the majority over the minority. That's really what bugs me about Mr. Bush--he has it essentially correct in saying that free and democratic societies are inherrently good--but its not just the democratic part, but the constitutional part is what is really important. Mr. Chavez in Venezuala carried 58% of the vote--that means that 42% did not vote for him. Without checks, those 42% at at the mercy of the leader of the 58%. Now, I do not know how the constitution of Venezuala is written--how the court system is constructed, or how the President's powers are held in check. In the US it was essentially 50-50 in the popular vote--and in this era, the Republicans hold majorities in both houses of congress and the presidency. But they can still not impose unconstitutional laws on the land. And one also has to remember that although many of the individual states that make up the union--we are after all the United States of America, not the United People of America, have lost power to the Federal Government, the States still have a great deal of power. Another check on the majority. You can always move to a differerent state. The Left Coast can still pass all kinds of quirky laws, that we in the Middle South do not have to follow. (thank the Constitution). They can limit the freedoms of their citizens as much as they like as long as they do not abrogate the US Constitution (or their own). They can levy their own taxes, create their own courts, etc, etc. And yet, the founding fathers one state was equal to another, no matter what their population. South Dakota with 1/2 million people still has the same number of Senators as Californina or New York. This is what makes the country work (albeit very slowly). And this was the only way to bring together a diverse collection of former colonies into a federation. If the Senate was like the House of Representatives, then California, New York, and Texas could rule all the other states. Tommy "If you're a big enough fool to climb a tree and like a cat refuse to come down, then someone who loves you has to make as big a fool of himself to rescue you." W Percy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 00:21:37 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050825042115.RQB14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> "the real motive for the Irak invasion is a three-letter word: OIL." In a way I believe you are correct. But it is not the oil, in and of itself, but the power that that oil gives to the possessor. With it, one can realistically acquire power that is a legitimate threat--so a tyrant who controls a lot of it inherrently has real power. He can fund programs of WMD development, he can in many ways alter international relations by playing one country off another. The real reason that the French, for example, were so vehemently opposed to the Iraq war, was not some high minded principle, it was the fact that they had huge investments in the Sadaam government. They had invested in a corrupt tyrannical government and did not want to see all their assets disappear. Great natural wealth such as yall have in Venezuala should and could be used for the benefit of all--but from what I gather it has been in large part the object of graft and greed--that is the wealth is not spread to the people. I am not an expert of course on Venezuala but from what I understand with all that wealth, there is still an incredible amount of incredible poverty. And this is the source of much of the what shall I call it "unrest"? Almost all Americans I know would think that to be wrong. If it is a national resource, it should be used to increase the national well being. But in my opinion, communism is not the way to fulfill that redistribution. America is slipping into the rich get richer and the poor get poorer mode, but as I said in another post, there is still real opportunity--or at least the freedom to give it a try. I am not familiar with your government structure, but when too much power is vested in a single entity, I know it will degenerate to graft and greed. "We haven't seen the avenging zeal of the Bush administration in countless other places where dictators of all sorts prevail." It is not really America's posistion to police the world-really-to make everything right--to undo every injustice. We really get a bum rap on that--we have not really bullied anyone--except Iraq (twice) Cuba and Vietnam by milatary force in the last 100 years. We only came into WW1 after an incredible propoganda campaign by the British and WWII after being directly attacks at Pearl Harbor. In the case of Cuba, there was an undeniable threat to our existance. In Vietnam, although a vast majority believe we lost that war--we really did not. We saw communism as a real and viable threat--and it was. The Cold War was real--there really was a battle of two different world views--ours and their's. The real reason we went into Vietnam was because we believed in the Domino Theory that if Vietname fell to the communists, then all of South East Asia would follow. Vietnam did fall, but by the time the war was over, there was no real threat to the rest of that region from the communists, so we essentially achieved our goals. If we had not gone to war--no one can know what would have happened. We are not physically or mentally capable of policing the world, nor have the desire to do so. But when we see an injustice that we think directly affects our well being, then we will act. In the case of Iraq, we saw a threat--not only an economic threat posed by the vast oil reserves he controlled, but a threat to the entire stability of the region and therefore a threat to our existance. The fact that he had used those resources for mainly milatary projects--that he had demonstrated that he was willing to use WMD's in the past, that he had the resources, yes from the OIL, to create them--we perceived as a threat to us. So we acted. Tommy Armstrong You can get all A's and still flunk life. Walker Percy Dear Tommy, From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 00:31:58 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:31:58 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <20050825043137.WFWA5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:21 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most "off." There is a T-shirt for American travelers: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes KP ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 00:34:45 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:34:45 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] A Real Percy Question In-Reply-To: <00dc01c5a902$71b7d930$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <20050825043423.WHHP15278.imta01a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> I am looking for a quote Percy made that essentially said something to the effect that "science tells us what is generally true about humans, art tells us what is uniquely true." I think came from Signposts but lost my copy--and oh how I miss it. 'To be born and to live is to be dislocated.'" Pascal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 00:36:02 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:36:02 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <20050825043137.WFWA5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <20050825043541.VFY14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> oops, messed up , sorry, need forgiveness Tommy _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Armstrong Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:32 AM To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:21 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most "off." There is a T-shirt for American travelers: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes KP ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Thu Aug 25 00:58:29 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:58:29 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A02D@olawexc8.naoxy.com> -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:28 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? See below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? It is a direct reference to Julio Rivas-Pita's comment "that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments" and to the fact that what, in retrospect, seems obviously misguided and even evil (Hitler's cause), often, at the time, seems to have many good points. Still do not understand but like Tommy thoroughly reject the rather blithe and bogus "a la" connection to Hitler, or that the invasion was "obviously misguided." Though obvious to you, not to me. Or should I say that after two years I am not resolved on the "obviousness" of it. I also do not accept that the arguments were "fake." Some, the WMD, proved wrong or outdated, but this does not mean "fake," for they were attested to by most leaders of most nations and their intelligence services. I for one was not willing to concede the point to Hussein. He used those weapons, after all. Ah, science is the foundation of our ethics and thought? Perhaps my poor choice of word. But the "just war" theory is not exactly precise. (Incidentally, as a rule, Jimmy Carter is a form of obverse moral measurement to me. If he opposes something, I am inclined to believe it has value. Vice versa.) Logical fallacy - just because other options are present, doesn't provide a logical refutation of the argument just presented. Correct, the number of arguments available doesn't or shouldn't necessarily discredit the one most recently presented. But that is really not the point. Different arguments, different interpretations of "just war" doctrine are available -- we tend to choose the ones which support our position. The question is, are they morally sound. I'll refute it another way. The argument against invading Hussein is to me morally incomplete. It is morally deficient. What? No other international criminal leaders in other countries? No other genocidal maniacs? In fact, there are dozens. Why don't we take THEM out? Why Saddam Hussein? Think about it. Thanks, I've thought about it. Again, not the point. Indeed there are other genocidal maniacs. It would be nice to remove them all. In this case, there was a preponderance of reasons, including a US history of involvement, and the responsibility that goes along with that, as well as a national security interest, and a host of other compelling reasons. Was Clinton's decision to bomb the Balkans "just"? Certainly the reasons for invading Iraq which included stopping the slaughter of people far outweighed "simply" the slaughter of people as in Kosovo. Ten years ago, that war was over. Time is now a moral consideration? Perhaps it would be more persuasive if Hussein killed more of his people more recently? Again - no less than what has been done by dozens of dictators of less politically important countries. When did Sudan become important? When oil was found nearby. Did anyone see Dateline NBC's special on Uganda a couple of nights ago? If we want to help, there are far worse and more chaotic places to help. But, oh wait, Uganda doesn't have any valuable national resources or political importance to the U.S. I see nothing wrong with including US national interest in the calculus of war. Read "Follow the Uranium" before commenting further. July 17 New York Times. Read "A Bomb in My Garden." And the NY Times no longer owns the moral authority to demand a suspension of my comments. And, what are we doing about North Korea by the way? Not enough. I am not incorrect - evidence abounds and I'm fairly certain any information I have is not classified - it's common knowledge. In addition, my father was in charge of the Reserves in the South ten years ago and wrote a paper on their "unreadiness" to go to war that was roundly ignored. The things that were done in Abu Ghraib were done also in Guatanemo Bay, and other places - and the ways they were done were similar in fashion and type to each other. And if you don't want to accept that at face value, common sense tells you that is how all scandals work - and military scandals as well, and other than the fact that the Geneva Convention was denounced by the administration as "antiquated" and Senator Joe Biden chastized similar comments in Congress - saying his son was in the military - were he to become a prisoner, what would happen? This is Chomsky's favorite line. "It's common knowledge." No, it is only common assumption among those who think they "know" the way it is with the scandals they would like to believe. There is no evidence this goes any higher than some incompetent and bad middle-level officers. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth - one, you say it is horrible and not characteristic, then you say it really wasn't much of a bad thing at all. The problem is people were trained and condoned, then blamed, for this when it became known and political. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? No, I said it was brutish and obscene. Nor did I ever say there should be no accounting. But I repeat, in the historic scheme of wars, a scandal. But wait, the terrorists weren't basing their camp and cause in Iraq!! If there was an association there, it was only secondary or tertiary - after Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. You have been "spun" if you are still associating the Iraq with 9/11 terrorists intent to wipe us from the face of the earth! There were associations, the ones I cited, and yes there were also camps in northern Iraq. There is a greater issue here: the disposition of Iraq as Hussein aged. It made perfect sense to me to consider the vacuum created by his collapse, in addition to the threat we had every reason to believe was developing should he have acquired nuclear weaponry, as he was trying to do via North Korea. Should we have been content with continued inspections under Hans Blinx, which is what we allowed to happen in North Korea, also under Hans Blinx? Again, I have to be "spun" to believe that terrorists who received sanctuary in Iraq would not make use of a putative arms supplier in Hussein. How neat to extrapolate from the fact that the 9/11 terrorists did not have passports from Iraq that Iraq was free or would remain free of terrorists. Read the book, then we can discuss it. Before you determine it to be a postmodern rumination on gender deconstruction or some abstract navel-gazing, read it. And it in fact relates to Percy's concerns and pursuits more than anything else in this conversation - the meaning of life - and key to the psychological motivations of most humans. I did read it, though not recently. It's fine to have theories about why people do things, and how we uncomprehendingly project our own shadows and unconscious, but I am not interested in how terrorism redounds to our unenlightened culture. Enlightened or not, it's ours, and I'm rather fond of it, and would like to preserve it for the outside chance of its improvement, and it is in imminent danger by those far less "enlightened," those who worship death. Or am I missing something? So far I have not heard a constructive distillation of Becker in service of the war on terror. I am more than happy to hear it. The "meaning of life," however, very much does pertain to all this. That is precisely what this war, and the wars to follow this war -- for surely there will be others -- will pertain to, perhaps as no conflicts in recent history have. If we become like them, by engaging in their tactics and arguments, the problem multiplies. This is true of individuals as well as nations. I don't believe I suggested "becoming like them" and frankly do not see how we have, or how we have engaged in their tactics and arguments. If you mean that by killing them we become "like them," then I accept the risk. Because I support killing them. You discuss, you talk, you converse, you deal, you understand, you listen, you meet needs on both sides. Look at how we handled the end of WWI vs. the end of WWII. And one determination of a "just war" is that it is always as a last resort. The Just War doctrine you would like to portray as some abstract ineffective liberal agenda, but in fact, it is a reasonable and effective and practical way to determine when to go to war. No, I don't believe in eschewing "just war" doctrines and debates. I simply don't agree with the view that this war was not just. No one at a top level in the Bush administration ever served time in combat - not Bush, not Cheney, not Rumsfeld, not Rice. (Colin Powell did, but he is gone - I think for a reason.) So, having never seen war, they can easily send other's sons and daughters to war - for abstract causes. Who is the abstracted one now? I imagine many or most of us teach in college - and many of our students have been soldiers. I have many in my class who tell me what it is like over there - one woman retired after 25 years (why 25? you retire after 20, for 1/2 your base pay, or 30 or 2/3 your base pay, but not 25) because of changing military polices and the situation in Iraq now (very dangerous, and more so every day.) FDR didn't serve time in combat either. I agree I would rather see presidents and their advisors who served, but it is not in itself a convincing argument for the justness or unjustness of a war. This has been said to be a war of "non-sacrifice" by America's citizens. In WWII, we gave up things, and lifestyles, and people, to help the war. We feel it not one bit here. How is your life different from before the war, other than the content of your daily news (unless of course you have a son, daughter, or relative there). What are you going to do to help preserve your culture? I agree with you here. It is regrettable that we have not been asked to sacrifice. And I find it offensive that our president vacations while men and women are dying. I did not vote for George Bush and do not agree with his prosecution of the war. This is not to say I accept the absurd and hysterical calumny about him, or that I do not support the war. Either-or fallacy. Oversimplification. (You can tell I teach logic and critical thinking!!) Perhaps an oversimplification. But in my arguments with those who oppose the war I find a common element of disregard of the idea of war, almost a dismissiveness. That is, I rarely get the response that "yes, we are at war with people who have declared an intention to kill us, only I disagree with how we should fight this war. Here is how I believe we should fight it." Instead I get a "we see boogeymen" sort of argument. Now I'm sure there are those who accept the idea but not the methods, only I rarely run into them. With whom? Or is it an abstract? Terrorism? The comparison of Iraq has been made with the Vietnam war - both were wars against abstractions - the one, communism; the second, terrorism. If you choose to label "terrorism" as an abstraction, your choice. That all stopped for me when I saw a man's head sawed off. I believe we will be for many years to come. I also believe that within the next five years most of the world - with the possible exception of academia -- will understand this, to the point at which there will simply won't be too many articles about Abu Ghraibs, or WMDs, or fascist propagandists, or anything of the like. Not to say that there should not be. But it will be widely understood that we are in a war for the survival of all that we value and cherish in western civilization. REALLY??? Yup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Aug 25 14:27:54 2005 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:27:54 EDT Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <154.57d9b9e0.303f67aa@aol.com> Would Mr. Karey please use a larger font. Thanks. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Aug 25 14:48:45 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:48:45 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <154.57d9b9e0.303f67aa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050825184820.IIUO5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Pretend to reply, select all (Ctrl+A) and then change the font. _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:28 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Would Mr. Karey please use a larger font. Thanks. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Aug 25 14:53:19 2005 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:53:19 EDT Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <1a1.3aa19d7c.303f6d9f@aol.com> That's more like it. It is curious that in all of these exchanges nobody has picked up on Marcus Smith's apt observation that far from being off topic, Walker dealt with very much the same sort of conflict in his (as usual) prescient manner in Love in the Ruins. This is perhaps not one of his more pupular books but in light of the present discussion certainly would bear a deep read for anyone who is interested in the debate but who may have overlooked the book. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Aug 24 21:16:53 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:16:53 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A029@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <002b01c5a912$adb409d0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> MessageSee below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Karey: I'm not sure what your preamble on Hitler Youth Corp means, except perhaps as an attempt to bring Walker Percy into the discussion. I suspect it is a technique of invidious association, though in what sense our country has found a like expression among our youth or in some other sector, escapes me. I would enjoy some clarification on what our current version of the "Hitler Youth Corps" may be. It is a direct reference to Julio Rivas-Pita's comment "that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments" and to the fact that what, in retrospect, seems obviously misguided and even evil (Hitler's cause), often, at the time, seems to have many good points. The comparison is that WE are the Hitler Youth, not the youth of our country. Has anyone seen the movie, "The Wave"? As for The unjust war doctrines are unscientific formulations from the good-faith debates of ethicists. Ah, science is the foundation of our ethics and thought? We can all find one to our liking. Logical fallacy - just because other options are present, doesn't provide a logical refutation of the argument just presented. I've found a few who endorse the war in Iraq, as I do. It may just as persuasively be argued that military action to remove an international crime lord with the equivalent of 17 warrants for his arrest, What? No other international criminal leaders in other countries? No other genocidal maniacs? In fact, there are dozens. Why don't we take THEM out? Why Saddam Hussein? Think about it. who had invaded an ally, Ten years ago, that war was over. refused to honor the terms of his surrender from that unprovoked invasion, directed fire against allied planes in a buffer zone designed to protect the northern Kurdish regions of his own land from continuing genocide with toxic weapons, killed more than 250,000 of his own people, some likewise with toxic weapons (a conservative estimate), provided sanctuary to the first bomber of the twin towers, as well as the current second most notorious terrorist in the world, Again - no less than what has been done by dozens of dictators of less politically important countries. When did Sudan become important? When oil was found nearby. Did anyone see Dateline NBC's special on Uganda a couple of nights ago? If we want to help, there are far worse and more chaotic places to help. But, oh wait, Uganda doesn't have any valuable national resources or political importance to the U.S. and, if you are to believe the testimony of his chief physicist, had every intent to develop an atomic weapon, Read "Follow the Uranium" before commenting further. July 17 New York Times. and indeed was in negotiations with North Korea as late as the winter of 2003 to purchase one "off the shelf." And, what are we doing about North Korea by the way? That is plenty of reason to me. In fact, we were 10 years too late in acting. As for the Pope condemning the Iraq War, I'm afraid that doesn't have much moral heft to me. If I'm correct, the Catholic Church went out of its way to comfort the Nazis. If the Catholic Church lacks the moral clarity to recognize that the serial and grotesque rapacities of a dictator demand forceful interdiction, I'm sorry, but I have no intention to wait around for them to catch up to me. Anyway, I believe such catch-up is inevitable; I'm sure Catholicism is not too far down the "to-do" list of Islamicist fury. As for Abu Ghraib, I believe you are incorrect. I am not incorrect - evidence abounds and I'm fairly certain any information I have is not classified - it's common knowledge. In addition, my father was in charge of the Reserves in the South ten years ago and wrote a paper on their "unreadiness" to go to war that was roundly ignored. The things that were done in Abu Ghraib were done also in Guatanemo Bay, and other places - and the ways they were done were similar in fashion and type to each other. And if you don't want to accept that at face value, common sense tells you that is how all scandals work - and military scandals as well, and other than the fact that the Geneva Convention was denounced by the administration as "antiquated" and Senator Joe Biden chastized similar comments in Congress - saying his son was in the military - were he to become a prisoner, what would happen? It was isolated and was not connected to a higher chain of command. If I am wrong, I would be interested in proof. It was brutish and obscene of course but hardly characteristic of our treatment of prisoners, there or elsewhere. Obviously it cannot be compared to how "prisoners of war" are treated by Islamicists, as those poor souls get their heads sawed off -- something perhaps closer to "a gross and unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva Convention"? Moreover, our incidents of abuse are followed by swift remediation. We are now constructing a new holding facility in Guatanemo Bay, Cuba. After many years and many lawsuits filed and much publicity - that has been no swift remediation, it has been a reluctant and forced change. It is one of the most salutary aspects of our nation that we learn from our mistakes. Vietnam? Anyway, in the historic scheme of wars, Abu Ghraib barely amounts to a scandal. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth - one, you say it is horrible and not characteristic, then you say it really wasn't much of a bad thing at all. The problem is people were trained and condoned, then blamed, for this when it became known and political. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? And then of course, there is the same old claim that we are all being "spun" as a part of a "fascist" fear-mongering. We are manipulated by Karl Rove and "swept along" by vulgar mob sentiments. I can only speak for myself, but I am not. I wonder why it so bewildering to so many to think that people can reasonably and on their own arrive at the decision that a war against terrorists, But wait, the terrorists weren't basing their camp and cause in Iraq!! If there was an association there, it was only secondary or tertiary - after Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. You have been "spun" if you are still associating the Iraq with 9/11 terrorists intent to wipe us from the face of the earth! who have declared their intent to wipe us from the face of the earth, makes basic sense? Somehow we must be "influenced" to believe this? Anyway, I'm curious who is being swept anywhere. More than half of the population currently opposes the war in Iraq. The overwhelming majority of the media opposes it. Most of the free world opposes it. The president has collapsed in the polls. That's a pretty poor job of fascist brainwashing, if you ask me. Karl Rove should be fired. If you ask me, yes, I completely agree, Karl Rove should be fired. For different reasons. As for Ernest Becker's meditations on the neurotic roots of war, nothing better underscores, with all due respect, the abstractions of academia. Read the book, then we can discuss it. Before you determine it to be a postmodern rumination on gender deconstruction or some abstract navel-gazing, read it. And it in fact relates to Percy's concerns and pursuits more than anything else in this conversation - the meaning of life - and key to the psychological motivations of most humans. If I have a neurosis it is to guarantee that I and/or my fellow citizens don't get our heads chopped off. And my fear or concern doesn't spring from any dark, Freudian recess of anxiety responsible for phantasmal projections of psychosis. It springs from people chopping our heads off. If killing my enemy gives me meaning and purpose, it is a good meaning and purpose, and reflects total sanity, and I am glad of it. Becker belongs high on the bookshelf in this conflict. And to Julio: I would read Orwell a little more closely, especially his essay on wartime England, "The Lion and the Unicorn." You might find his scorn for pacifism rather interesting. Nowhere in your disquisition on our "fascist" state do you address this fundamental question: what do we do in the face of a nihilistic, barbarous, and genuinely fascist movement that wishes both literally and figuratively to decapitate us. If we become like them, by engaging in their tactics and arguments, the problem multiplies. This is true of individuals as well as nations. A movement which has no interest in sharing this planet with us, and will accept massive self-immolation as a price for our destruction. You discuss, you talk, you converse, you deal, you understand, you listen, you meet needs on both sides. Look at how we handled the end of WWI vs. the end of WWII. And one determination of a "just war" is that it is always as a last resort. The Just War doctrine you would like to portray as some abstract ineffective liberal agenda, but in fact, it is a reasonable and effective and practical way to determine when to go to war. Until the anti-war movement can address, even admit this, I cannot take any of these arguments seriously - any protests against Don Rumsfeld or Karl Rove or Dick Cheney man nothing to me. They are merely ideological fulminations -- elegant and theoretical and nugatory. No one at a top level in the Bush administration ever served time in combat - not Bush, not Cheney, not Rumsfeld, not Rice. (Colin Powell did, but he is gone - I think for a reason.) So, having never seen war, they can easily send other's sons and daughters to war - for abstract causes. Who is the abstracted one now? I imagine many or most of us teach in college - and many of our students have been soldiers. I have many in my class who tell me what it is like over there - one woman retired after 25 years (why 25? you retire after 20, for 1/2 your base pay, or 30 or 2/3 your base pay, but not 25) because of changing military polices and the situation in Iraq now (very dangerous, and more so every day.) They do not help me understand the real threats to my culture or how to answer them. This has been said to be a war of "non-sacrifice" by America's citizens. In WWII, we gave up things, and lifestyles, and people, to help the war. We feel it not one bit here. How is your life different from before the war, other than the content of your daily news (unless of course you have a son, daughter, or relative there). What are you going to do to help preserve your culture? I guess the major "cognitive" divide is simple. Either one takes the position that we are at "war" or we are not at war. Either-or fallacy. Oversimplification. (You can tell I teach logic and critical thinking!!) I believe we are at war. With whom? Or is it an abstract? Terrorism? The comparison of Iraq has been made with the Vietnam war - both were wars against abstractions - the one, communism; the second, terrorism. I believe we will be for many years to come. I also believe that within the next five years most of the world - with the possible exception of academia -- will understand this, to the point at which there will simply won't be too many articles about Abu Ghraibs, or WMDs, or fascist propagandists, or anything of the like. Not to say that there should not be. But it will be widely understood that we are in a war for the survival of all that we value and cherish in western civilization. REALLY??? This is the first stages of that war. That is simply my opinion. Now, as for what Walker Percy would say to our current problems? I do not know. I only know that he prized and defended western liberal values, science, art, education, freedom of speech, "truth and beauty and suchlike." I can't help but think he would have had some form of intelligent and forceful response to a barbaric movement dedicated to snuffing them all out. It may very well be that he would have opposed the war in Iraq as either impracticable or stupid. But he would have offered some kind of alternative. Exactly what the Bush administration did NOT consider. (Alternatives, that is.) And exactly what a Just War demands. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:21 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most "off." There is a T-shirt for American travelers: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes KP ----- Original Message ----- From: J Rivas-Pita To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Dear Karey, Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. Needless to say, I fully agree with you. (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's "misquote": http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html With all best wishes, Julio On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the early > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at my > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he was > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in life. > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a real > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine what > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler Youth. > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according to > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, when > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine was > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation too > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when did > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's e-mail > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better course > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times and > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and these > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was something > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher ups > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by the > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He was > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's deliberations > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic and > military strength - considerably. > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics of > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor through > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since and > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty and > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions of > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > insidiously so. > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest Becker's > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger than > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform the > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, self-actualization. > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, to > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and his > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has been > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > when it was just what America needed. > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored and > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. Julio > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to act > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any of > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in California > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > Karey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear friends, > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > conveniently forgot). > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Thu Aug 25 23:17:45 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:17:45 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, in order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed to shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that dogmatic ideologies are prone to. I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side or the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think that either position is that black and white. For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right or the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion for this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is taking place in the U.S. If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All I'm reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear every time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our self- righteous beliefs to really hear the other. I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of the remarks being "percean?? I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to our everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. -David From juliorivas at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 23:50:11 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:50:11 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. To grossly misquote me like this: " It started off with something like "through a percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of the remarks being "percean"?" Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread and read my post. To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as "fastidiousness". As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much care to show. And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, in > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed to > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side or > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think that > either position is that black and white. > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right or > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion for > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > taking place in the U.S. > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All I'm > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear every > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our self- > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"? > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to our > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > -David > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Aug 26 00:22:31 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:22:31 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <1125030151.430e9907a5cb3@webmail.iu.edu> Once again, you are missing the point. Can you explain how your postings have anything to do with Percy?? Give us some quotes, some examples from Percy that justify posting your politics to the percy listserv. Can you do that? If not, please take it somewhere else. If this listserv is going to be just another place to rant about politics, I want off. But if we can get back to Percy (which is the point, isn't it?), let's do it. So, Mr. Rivas-Pita, bring out the evidence that your agenda has anything to do with Percy in any legitimate way or let us know why you think this is a forum for your diatribes. And, btw, who said your were a communist?? (No, nevermind; that has nothing to do with Percy.) And, sorry, for mentioning the Jews. Apparently in your eyes, they really weren't the victims. More 'non- jews' died in WWII, so let's forget the five or so million who were killed for just being who they were. And, why respond to your "arguments," since none of them has to do with PERCY!!! That's my point. Get it?? Couch your politics in Percean terms and then maybe we can have a good discussion. That was the point of my posting. Go back and re-read it. Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > " It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"?" > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > and read my post. > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > "fastidiousness". > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > care to show. > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, > in > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his > opinions. > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed > to > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided > our > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us > a > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. > Percy > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side > or > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think > that > > either position is that black and white. > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right > or > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion > for > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > > taking place in the U.S. > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All > I'm > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear > every > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our > self- > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does > best: > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask > of > > the remarks being "percean"? > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to > our > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political > agenda, > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > -David > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Aug 26 00:46:44 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:46:44 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <1125031603.430e9eb404a65@webmail.iu.edu> Mr. Rivas-Pita, You wrote, I probably don't have the moral integrity of you, but I do know American history. But who called you names?? I'm guessing that this posting is directed toward mine, but when did I call you a "name"? (The answer is probably as elusive as the connection of your postings to Percy is, but I was just wondering, since you accused me of being guilty of the "fascist-style practice of calling [you] names", if you can give me one name that I called you in my posting.) Just wondering. Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > " It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"?" > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > and read my post. > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > "fastidiousness". > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > care to show. > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, > in > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his > opinions. > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed > to > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided > our > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us > a > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. > Percy > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side > or > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think > that > > either position is that black and white. > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right > or > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion > for > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > > taking place in the U.S. > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All > I'm > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear > every > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our > self- > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does > best: > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask > of > > the remarks being "percean"? > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to > our > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political > agenda, > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > -David > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Fri Aug 26 01:04:51 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:04:51 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A030@olawexc8.naoxy.com> I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for. You did begin this un-Percy like discussion, Mr. Rivas-Pita, and in a rather pugnacious manner, and seem to wish to continue it so. Fine. But in my view, Mr. Beck's summary of your introduction is not "grossly" inaccurate. For, after all, comparisons, allusions, coy nods, to Hitler, are as silly as they are inflammatory. You must have known at least the latter. How did you think people would respond to the suggestion, nay assertion, their country was the largest terrorist state, etc.. And, if you please, how is this inquiry you enjoin to be conducted "in a Percy vein"? And exactly how does one respond in such a "vein," other than to say, as Percy might have said, that it is morally cattywhompers? I think the responses have been extraordinarily civil. I should have responded more forcefully at the time. Mr. Rivas-Pita, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're doing so in a way to invite rebuke. As to McCarthyism, I'm quite familiar with it. It is very much alive today, and takes many forms. One of these forms is the sort of bullying and censorial indignation of "being fed up" with certain positions inimical to one's own, and the related attempt to stifle them. But I did get a laugh from your remark about the "Jewish-controlled" media. You haven't been here recently, have you? Cordially, R. Pauley -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:50 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. To grossly misquote me like this: " It started off with something like "through a percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of the remarks being "percean"?" Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread and read my post. To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as "fastidiousness". As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much care to show. And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, in > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed to > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side or > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think that > either position is that black and white. > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right or > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion for > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > taking place in the U.S. > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All I'm > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear every > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our self- > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"? > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to our > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > -David > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From juliorivas at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 06:53:44 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:53:44 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A030@olawexc8.naoxy.com> References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A030@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: Mr. Pauley, please kindly refer to the links I previously provided to stories by AP, CNN and The Guardian, and to my first post IN CONTEXT. (Remember Pat Robertson's inflammatory appeals to assassinate Venezuela's President, since Venezuela is "in our sphere of influence"?) You accuse me of "bullying and censorial indignation". My dear Mr. Pauley, have you ever heard of the term "projection", employed in psychoanalysis? I'm not the one who wrote: "I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for." (?????) Do I need, my dear Mr. Pauley, have to be more explicit, or do you understand it the way I've just shown? Kindest regards, Julio Rivas-Pita On 8/26/05, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for. > > You did begin this un-Percy like discussion, Mr. Rivas-Pita, and in a rather pugnacious manner, and seem to wish to continue it so. Fine. But in my view, Mr. Beck's summary of your introduction is not "grossly" inaccurate. For, after all, comparisons, allusions, coy nods, to Hitler, are as silly as they are inflammatory. You must have known at least the latter. How did you think people would respond to the suggestion, nay assertion, their country was the largest terrorist state, etc.. And, if you please, how is this inquiry you enjoin to be conducted "in a Percy vein"? And exactly how does one respond in such a "vein," other than to say, as Percy might have said, that it is morally cattywhompers? I think the responses have been extraordinarily civil. I should have responded more forcefully at the time. Mr. Rivas-Pita, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're doing so in a way to invite rebuke. > > As to McCarthyism, I'm quite familiar with it. It is very much alive today, and takes many forms. One of these forms is the sort of bullying and censorial indignation of "being fed up" with certain positions inimical to one's own, and the related attempt to stifle them. > > But I did get a laugh from your remark about the "Jewish-controlled" media. You haven't been here recently, have you? > > Cordially, R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:50 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > " It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"?" > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > and read my post. > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > "fastidiousness". > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > care to show. > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, in > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed to > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side or > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think that > > either position is that black and white. > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right or > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion for > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > > taking place in the U.S. > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All I'm > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear every > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our self- > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > > the remarks being "percean"? > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to our > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > -David > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From juliorivas at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 08:30:34 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:30:34 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Fwd: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> <1125030151.430e9907a5cb3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear friends, This is a reply to Mr. Beck that I sent as usual clicking on "Reply". I hadn't noticed that Mr. Beck wasn't using the listserv but his private e-mail address, as you will see for yourselves... I gather Mr. Beck didn't want to share his message to me with the rest of the list, for reasons I do not fully understand. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: J Rivas-Pita Date: Aug 26, 2005 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) To: "dabeck at iupui.edu" Mr. Beck, you are sounding more and more like the infamous Sen. Joe McCarthy (have heard of him, or of Ed Burrows?). And, once more, my child, you insist on grossly misquoting me and, as I expected, calling me names instead of addressing my arguments. Please do yourself a favor and kindly read, Mr. Beck, "Politics and the English Language", by a Briton named Orwell, or even "Animal Farm", by the same chap. And please kindly read again your Percy -apart from "Love in the Ruins" I'd strongly recommend you "Lost in the Cosmos"... But first of all, Mr. Beck, first calm yourself. Sit in a comfortable chair. Relax. Breath deeply... Do it several times, and as often as needed. On 8/26/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > Once again, you are missing the point. Can you explain how your postings have > anything to do with Percy?? Give us some quotes, some examples from Percy that > justify posting your politics to the percy listserv. Can you do that? If not, > please take it somewhere else. > If this listserv is going to be just another place to rant about politics, I > want off. But if we can get back to Percy (which is the point, isn't it?), > let's do it. > So, Mr. Rivas-Pita, bring out the evidence that your agenda has anything to > do with Percy in any legitimate way or let us know why you think this is a > forum for your diatribes. And, btw, who said your were a communist?? (No, > nevermind; that has nothing to do with Percy.) And, sorry, for mentioning the > Jews. Apparently in your eyes, they really weren't the victims. More 'non- > jews' died in WWII, so let's forget the five or so million who were killed for > just being who they were. > And, why respond to your "arguments," since none of them has to do with > PERCY!!! That's my point. Get it?? Couch your politics in Percean terms and > then maybe we can have a good discussion. That was the point of my posting. Go > back and re-read it. > > > > Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > > > " It started off with something like "through a > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > > the remarks being "percean"?" > > > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > > and read my post. > > > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > > "fastidiousness". > > > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > > care to show. > > > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, > > in > > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his > > opinions. > > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed > > to > > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided > > our > > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us > > a > > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. > > Percy > > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side > > or > > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think > > that > > > either position is that black and white. > > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right > > or > > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion > > for > > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > > > taking place in the U.S. > > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All > > I'm > > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear > > every > > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our > > self- > > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does > > best: > > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask > > of > > > the remarks being "percean"? > > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to > > our > > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political > > agenda, > > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > > -David > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From juliorivas at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 08:35:51 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:35:51 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Fwd: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1125058644.430f08541ae34@webmail.iu.edu> References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> <1125030151.430e9907a5cb3@webmail.iu.edu> <1125058644.430f08541ae34@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Mr. Beck, In my response to you, dear sir, I proceeded as usual clicking on "Reply", not aware that YOU were corresponding with me, not with the general list, as we were doing. However, I shall not report YOU to the moderator. Not my style, my dear sir... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: dabeck at iupui.edu Date: Aug 26, 2005 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) To: J Rivas-Pita Mr. Rivas-Pita, Please don't email me again. It's bad enough that I have to read your self- righteous, condescending stuff on the listserv, but I really don't want to correspond with you. And, btw, I did my grad thesis on Percy and have read (several times) everything he's written (that's been published). So I do know his other works, probably better than you. But the very fact that you still can't give any specific, relevant quotes that justify your postings proves my point. Again, I don't want to hear from you again. Keep it (if you must) on the list. If not, I will report you to the moderator of the listserv. Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > Mr. Beck, you are sounding more and more like the infamous Sen. Joe > McCarthy (have heard of him, or of Ed Burrows?). > > And, once more, my child, you insist on grossly misquoting me and, as > I expected, calling me names instead of addressing my arguments. > > Please do yourself a favor and kindly read, Mr. Beck, "Politics and > the English Language", by a Briton named Orwell, or even "Animal > Farm", by the same chap. And please kindly read again your Percy > -apart from "Love in the Ruins" I'd strongly recommend you "Lost in > the Cosmos"... > > But first of all, Mr. Beck, first calm yourself. Sit in a comfortable > chair. Relax. Breath deeply... Do it several times, and as often as > needed. > > On 8/26/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > Once again, you are missing the point. Can you explain how your postings > have > > anything to do with Percy?? Give us some quotes, some examples from Percy > that > > justify posting your politics to the percy listserv. Can you do that? If > not, > > please take it somewhere else. > > If this listserv is going to be just another place to rant about politics, > I > > want off. But if we can get back to Percy (which is the point, isn't it?), > > let's do it. > > So, Mr. Rivas-Pita, bring out the evidence that your agenda has anything > to > > do with Percy in any legitimate way or let us know why you think this is a > > forum for your diatribes. And, btw, who said your were a communist?? (No, > > nevermind; that has nothing to do with Percy.) And, sorry, for mentioning > the > > Jews. Apparently in your eyes, they really weren't the victims. More 'non- > > jews' died in WWII, so let's forget the five or so million who were killed > for > > just being who they were. > > And, why respond to your "arguments," since none of them has to do with > > PERCY!!! That's my point. Get it?? Couch your politics in Percean terms > and > > then maybe we can have a good discussion. That was the point of my posting. > Go > > back and re-read it. > > > > > > > > Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > > > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > > > > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > > > > > " It started off with something like "through a > > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to > do > > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask > of > > > the remarks being "percean"?" > > > > > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > > > and read my post. > > > > > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > > > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > > > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > > > "fastidiousness". > > > > > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > > > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > > > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > > > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > > > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > > > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > > > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > > > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > > > care to show. > > > > > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > > > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > > > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > > > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > > > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > > > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous > contortions, > > > in > > > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think > Percy > > > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his > > > opinions. > > > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his > work > > > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he > seemed > > > to > > > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. > Some > > > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how > divided > > > our > > > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows > us > > > a > > > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or > right. > > > Percy > > > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view > that > > > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one > side > > > or > > > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't > think > > > that > > > > either position is that black and white. > > > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far > right > > > or > > > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better > discussion > > > for > > > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that > is > > > > taking place in the U.S. > > > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. > All > > > I'm > > > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear > > > every > > > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and > the > > > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in > our > > > self- > > > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does > > > best: > > > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. > The > > > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It > had > > > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through > a > > > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews > and > > > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to > do > > > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the > mask > > > of > > > > the remarks being "percean"? > > > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading > the > > > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to > what > > > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it > to > > > our > > > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political > > > agenda, > > > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > > > -David > > > > -- > > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Aug 26 08:43:12 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:43:12 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Fwd: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1125026265.430e89d997239@webmail.iu.edu> <1125030151.430e9907a5cb3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <1125060192.430f0e6088bf7@webmail.iu.edu> I didn't respond to the list, because I didn't think it deserved a public response. I'm done with this "discussion." Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > Dear friends, > > This is a reply to Mr. Beck that I sent as usual clicking on "Reply". > I hadn't noticed that Mr. Beck wasn't using the listserv but his > private e-mail address, as you will see for yourselves... > > I gather Mr. Beck didn't want to share his message to me with the rest > of the list, for reasons I do not fully understand. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: J Rivas-Pita > Date: Aug 26, 2005 6:40 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) > To: "dabeck at iupui.edu" > > > Mr. Beck, you are sounding more and more like the infamous Sen. Joe > McCarthy (have heard of him, or of Ed Burrows?). > > And, once more, my child, you insist on grossly misquoting me and, as > I expected, calling me names instead of addressing my arguments. > > Please do yourself a favor and kindly read, Mr. Beck, "Politics and > the English Language", by a Briton named Orwell, or even "Animal > Farm", by the same chap. And please kindly read again your Percy > -apart from "Love in the Ruins" I'd strongly recommend you "Lost in > the Cosmos"... > > But first of all, Mr. Beck, first calm yourself. Sit in a comfortable > chair. Relax. Breath deeply... Do it several times, and as often as > needed. > > On 8/26/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > Once again, you are missing the point. Can you explain how your postings > have > > anything to do with Percy?? Give us some quotes, some examples from Percy > that > > justify posting your politics to the percy listserv. Can you do that? If > not, > > please take it somewhere else. > > If this listserv is going to be just another place to rant about politics, > I > > want off. But if we can get back to Percy (which is the point, isn't it?), > > let's do it. > > So, Mr. Rivas-Pita, bring out the evidence that your agenda has anything > to > > do with Percy in any legitimate way or let us know why you think this is a > > forum for your diatribes. And, btw, who said your were a communist?? (No, > > nevermind; that has nothing to do with Percy.) And, sorry, for mentioning > the > > Jews. Apparently in your eyes, they really weren't the victims. More 'non- > > jews' died in WWII, so let's forget the five or so million who were killed > for > > just being who they were. > > And, why respond to your "arguments," since none of them has to do with > > PERCY!!! That's my point. Get it?? Couch your politics in Percean terms > and > > then maybe we can have a good discussion. That was the point of my posting. > Go > > back and re-read it. > > > > > > > > Quoting J Rivas-Pita : > > > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > > > > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > > > > > " It started off with something like "through a > > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to > do > > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask > of > > > the remarks being "percean"?" > > > > > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > > > and read my post. > > > > > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > > > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > > > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > > > "fastidiousness". > > > > > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > > > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > > > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > > > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > > > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > > > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > > > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > > > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > > > care to show. > > > > > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > > > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > > > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > > > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > > > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > > > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous > contortions, > > > in > > > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think > Percy > > > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his > > > opinions. > > > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his > work > > > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he > seemed > > > to > > > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. > Some > > > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how > divided > > > our > > > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows > us > > > a > > > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or > right. > > > Percy > > > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view > that > > > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one > side > > > or > > > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't > think > > > that > > > > either position is that black and white. > > > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far > right > > > or > > > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better > discussion > > > for > > > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that > is > > > > taking place in the U.S. > > > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. > All > > > I'm > > > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear > > > every > > > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and > the > > > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in > our > > > self- > > > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does > > > best: > > > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. > The > > > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It > had > > > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through > a > > > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews > and > > > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to > do > > > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the > mask > > > of > > > > the remarks being "percean"? > > > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading > the > > > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to > what > > > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it > to > > > our > > > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political > > > agenda, > > > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > > > -David > > > > -- > > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From JHForest at cs.com Fri Aug 26 09:09:12 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:09:12 EDT Subject: [percy-l] re the non-Percy non-discussion Message-ID: <1c8.2fa67e96.30406e78@cs.com> In a message dated 8/26/2005 2:43:38 PM Romance Daylight Time, dabeck at iupui.edu writes: > I didn't respond to the list, because I didn't think it deserved a public > response. I'm done with this "discussion." I appreciate the postings you've made, David. I also agree that it's best in this case to keep one's index finger near the delete button. Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 13:49:54 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:49:54 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] re the non-Percy non-discussion In-Reply-To: <1c8.2fa67e96.30406e78@cs.com> References: <1c8.2fa67e96.30406e78@cs.com> Message-ID: Blessed be the Lord, O Holy Big Brother! On 8/26/05, JHForest at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/26/2005 2:43:38 PM Romance Daylight Time, > dabeck at iupui.edu writes: > I didn't respond to the list, because I didn't think it deserved a public > response. I'm done with this "discussion." > > I appreciate the postings you've made, David. I also agree that it's best in > this case to keep one's index finger near the delete button. > > Jim > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Fri Aug 26 19:09:07 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:09:07 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A031@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Mr. Rivas-Pita: My admonition against regulation was just that: a call for free expression. I am not interested in silencing you or seeing that you are inhibited by other members. That is the moderator's prerogative, as I thought I indicated. I am not "fed up" with you or your points of view, as you seem to be of others. I'm here to say what I think and listen to others as they do the same, until I'm not. I'm also not interested in Pat Robertson. He doesn't speak for me or for the United States. I'm sure we can rake up some addle-pated "man of the cloth" in Venezuela who calls for the assassination of George Bush. So what? You may be as explicit as you wish, Mr. Rivas-Pita, according to your own style and your readings of my limitations. I did give some thought last night to Walker Percy and how he might have responded to some of these issues and the passions around them, including terrorism, nationalism, anti-Semitism and suchlike. I keep trying to imagine what a letter or essay of his to the NY Times editorial page, along the lines of his famous letter on abortion, might have sounded like. Dr. Percy was certainly not a polemicist. His style was restrained, incisive and ironic. But would the heat of this issue have moved him into a different pitch? Would he have aimed withering fire at George Bush, call him out as the dangerous dolt and self-righteous closet martinet so many in the literary and celebrity world now are doing? How would he have addressed notions of good and evil, the conflict between the West and Islamicism? I also wonder if it is possible that he would have not found his voice on the issue at all, would simply have chosen to keep his head down, like the bug in the crack of the sidewalk. Maybe people live in one time and not another for good reason. Mostly questions still. Cordially, R. Pauley, -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 3:54 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) Mr. Pauley, please kindly refer to the links I previously provided to stories by AP, CNN and The Guardian, and to my first post IN CONTEXT. (Remember Pat Robertson's inflammatory appeals to assassinate Venezuela's President, since Venezuela is "in our sphere of influence"?) You accuse me of "bullying and censorial indignation". My dear Mr. Pauley, have you ever heard of the term "projection", employed in psychoanalysis? I'm not the one who wrote: "I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for." (?????) Do I need, my dear Mr. Pauley, have to be more explicit, or do you understand it the way I've just shown? Kindest regards, Julio Rivas-Pita On 8/26/05, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for. > > You did begin this un-Percy like discussion, Mr. Rivas-Pita, and in a rather pugnacious manner, and seem to wish to continue it so. Fine. But in my view, Mr. Beck's summary of your introduction is not "grossly" inaccurate. For, after all, comparisons, allusions, coy nods, to Hitler, are as silly as they are inflammatory. You must have known at least the latter. How did you think people would respond to the suggestion, nay assertion, their country was the largest terrorist state, etc.. And, if you please, how is this inquiry you enjoin to be conducted "in a Percy vein"? And exactly how does one respond in such a "vein," other than to say, as Percy might have said, that it is morally cattywhompers? I think the responses have been extraordinarily civil. I should have responded more forcefully at the time. Mr. Rivas-Pita, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're doing so in a way to invite rebuke. > > As to McCarthyism, I'm quite familiar with it. It is very much alive today, and takes many forms. One of these forms is the sort of bullying and censorial indignation of "being fed up" with certain positions inimical to one's own, and the related attempt to stifle them. > > But I did get a laugh from your remark about the "Jewish-controlled" media. You haven't been here recently, have you? > > Cordially, R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:50 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > " It started off with something like "through a > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > the remarks being "percean"?" > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > and read my post. > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > "fastidiousness". > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > care to show. > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous contortions, in > > order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy to say, I think Percy > > would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of his work > > during some of the most volatile years of recent history; and b)he seemed to > > shy away from making a dogmatic stand on political issues of the day. Some > > have recommended Love in the Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our > > country can and has become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a > > particular side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that > > dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one side or > > the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really don't think that > > either position is that black and white. > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far right or > > the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a better discussion for > > this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought to the polarization that is > > taking place in the U.S. > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. All I'm > > reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) have to hear every > > time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking heads of the left and the > > right. Nothing new is being said, and all of us are to comfortable in our self- > > righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday lives. The > > original posting that started this discussion was inappropriate. It had > > nothing to do with Percy. It started off with something like "through a > > percean view, how do you Americans feel about having a leader who is > > comparable to Hitler" (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and > > thinking people who know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do > > with Percy, other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of > > the remarks being "percean"? > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of reading the > > same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. Let's get back to what > > this list is for: discussing Percy's philosophy and how we relate it to our > > everyday lives. Other listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, > > but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > -David > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From tfa at brickengraver.com Fri Aug 26 19:48:25 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:48:25 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A031@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <20050826234808.MXUD14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> I too want to say to Mr. Rivas-Pita that although I may strongly disagree with your world view that I am actually glad he posted such an inflamatory remark, as it has seemed to jog the list out of the doldrums. Many of the questions that R. Pauley pose are real fodder for discussion. I for one would think that WP would not dismiss GB as a total idiot--and he has really dealt with the Pat Robertsons of the world in more than one of his works. I am not so sure the inhabitants of Alpha Centauri would have let any of the posters on this subject onto their planet if they had read what we have posted. I think they would have sent us back to earth. (I will reread LITC tomorrow and correct this last statement). Politics has or rather is a way of grouping people, and one thing that I know for certain is that WP believed in not being grouped--except perhaps by Catholicism, whether by some pseudo-science such as sociology or psychology or by "political science" (an abosolute oxymoron). Discussion between individuals who have voluntarily subjugated themselves to group think leads to no good--usually genocide or some other atrocity. That is where WP would have probably weighed in. Its Friday night, I have had a hard week protecting the fish and the environment form lethal human waste (I run a sewer plant), so I think I will have an Early Times, sit on my front porch, and read a bit of Percy. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:09 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) Mr. Rivas-Pita: My admonition against regulation was just that: a call for free expression. I am not interested in silencing you or seeing that you are inhibited by other members. That is the moderator's prerogative, as I thought I indicated. I am not "fed up" with you or your points of view, as you seem to be of others. I'm here to say what I think and listen to others as they do the same, until I'm not. I'm also not interested in Pat Robertson. He doesn't speak for me or for the United States. I'm sure we can rake up some addle-pated "man of the cloth" in Venezuela who calls for the assassination of George Bush. So what? You may be as explicit as you wish, Mr. Rivas-Pita, according to your own style and your readings of my limitations. I did give some thought last night to Walker Percy and how he might have responded to some of these issues and the passions around them, including terrorism, nationalism, anti-Semitism and suchlike. I keep trying to imagine what a letter or essay of his to the NY Times editorial page, along the lines of his famous letter on abortion, might have sounded like. Dr. Percy was certainly not a polemicist. His style was restrained, incisive and ironic. But would the heat of this issue have moved him into a different pitch? Would he have aimed withering fire at George Bush, call him out as the dangerous dolt and self-righteous closet martinet so many in the literary and celebrity world now are doing? How would he have addressed notions of good and evil, the conflict between the West and Islamicism? I also wonder if it is possible that he would have not found his voice on the issue at all, would simply have chosen to keep his head down, like the bug in the crack of the sidewalk. Maybe people live in one time and not another for good reason. Mostly questions still. Cordially, R. Pauley, -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 3:54 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) Mr. Pauley, please kindly refer to the links I previously provided to stories by AP, CNN and The Guardian, and to my first post IN CONTEXT. (Remember Pat Robertson's inflammatory appeals to assassinate Venezuela's President, since Venezuela is "in our sphere of influence"?) You accuse me of "bullying and censorial indignation". My dear Mr. Pauley, have you ever heard of the term "projection", employed in psychoanalysis? I'm not the one who wrote: "I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for." (?????) Do I need, my dear Mr. Pauley, have to be more explicit, or do you understand it the way I've just shown? Kindest regards, Julio Rivas-Pita On 8/26/05, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > I'm not sure it is necessary to try to regulate the discussion. That's what moderators are for. > > You did begin this un-Percy like discussion, Mr. Rivas-Pita, and in a rather pugnacious manner, and seem to wish to continue it so. Fine. But in my view, Mr. Beck's summary of your introduction is not "grossly" inaccurate. For, after all, comparisons, allusions, coy nods, to Hitler, are as silly as they are inflammatory. You must have known at least the latter. How did you think people would respond to the suggestion, nay assertion, their country was the largest terrorist state, etc.. And, if you please, how is this inquiry you enjoin to be conducted "in a Percy vein"? And exactly how does one respond in such a "vein," other than to say, as Percy might have said, that it is morally cattywhompers? I think the responses have been extraordinarily civil. I should have responded more forcefully at the time. Mr. Rivas-Pita, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're doing so in a way to invite rebuke. > > As to McCarthyism, I'm quite familiar with it. It is very much alive today, and takes many forms. One of these forms is the sort of bullying and censorial indignation of "being fed up" with certain positions inimical to one's own, and the related attempt to stifle them. > > But I did get a laugh from your remark about the "Jewish-controlled" media. You haven't been here recently, have you? > > Cordially, R. Pauley > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J Rivas-Pita > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:50 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] (no subject) > > > I also have an idea -about what you stand for, for instance. > > To grossly misquote me like this: > > " It started off with something like "through a percean view, how do > you Americans feel about having a leader who is comparable to Hitler" > (a remark that should be offensive to all Jews and thinking people who > know history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do with Percy, > other than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of the > remarks being "percean"?" > > Those interested enough are quite welcomed to go back in the thread > and read my post. > > To misquote another list-member, and to misquote him OUT OF CONTEXT > seems to me plainly dishonest, both morally and intelectually. Which > confirms my suspicions about your own hidden agenda, masked as > "fastidiousness". > > As to the remark about "all Jews and thinking people who know > history", I must say I'm COMPLETELY FED UP MYSELF with the > manipulative portraying of Jews as -seemingly- the only victims of > violence and hatred on this planet, to the total exclusion of the > about 50 MILLION DEAD in WWII who WERE NOT JEWISH, not to mention the > fact that later on it was Jews who violently persecuted, discriminated > and robbed of their land Palestinians, sending them into refugee camps > -something that the Jewish-controlled media in the U.S.A. do not much > care to show. > > And PLEASE do not come now saying that these remarks are offensive or > that I must be a Communist or something to the effect -if you have > some intellectual and moral integrity, do respond to my arguments and > do not resort to the fascist-style practice of calling me names (? la > Joe McCarthy, if you happen to know who he was -it depends on how old > you are or how much you know about XXth century American politics). > > > > On 8/25/05, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > > I have an idea. I see that some have attempted some marvelous > > contortions, in order to relate this discussion to Percy. It's easy > > to say, I think Percy would relate to XXX. But the fact is, he isn't here to throw in his opinions. > > One thing that stands out about Percy is that a) he wrote much of > > his work during some of the most volatile years of recent history; > > and b)he seemed to shy away from making a dogmatic stand on > > political issues of the day. Some have recommended Love in the > > Ruins. I agree. The book shows how divided our country can and has > > become. But, at the same time, the book never shows us a particular > > side we should support (in a Bakhtinian way), left or right. Percy > > shows the weaknesses of both. In fact, he points out the myopic view that dogmatic ideologies are prone to. > > I don't know. But anytime I hear someone arguing vehemently for one > > side or the other, I cast a suspicious eye toward him/her. I really > > don't think that either position is that black and white. > > For me, that's the big Percean point: He never sided with the far > > right or the far left (or the middle, for that matter). Perhaps a > > better discussion for this listserv is how to relate Percy's thought > > to the polarization that is taking place in the U.S. > > If not, please do me a favor and carry on the discussion off-list. > > All I'm reading is the same tired rhetoric that I (unfortunately) > > have to hear every time I turn on the TV and listen to the talking > > heads of the left and the right. Nothing new is being said, and all > > of us are to comfortable in our self- righteous beliefs to really hear the other. > > I invite us all to drop our agenda and return to what this list does best: > > analyze the works of Percy and how they relate to our everyday > > lives. The original posting that started this discussion was > > inappropriate. It had nothing to do with Percy. It started off with > > something like "through a percean view, how do you Americans feel > > about having a leader who is comparable to Hitler" (a remark that > > should be offensive to all Jews and thinking people who know > > history). What do those remarks REALLY have to do with Percy, other > > than the desire to spew out one's agenda under the mask of the remarks being "percean"? > > I suggest (PLEASE) take the discussion off list. I'm tired of > > reading the same old rhetoric that I hear everyday on the news. > > Let's get back to what this list is for: discussing Percy's > > philosophy and how we relate it to our everyday lives. Other > > listserves exist that welcome one's political agenda, but I'm hoping this one won't turn out like the others. > > -David > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. > Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From juliorivas at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 13:16:40 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:16:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "Lost in the Cosmos", U.S., Terrorism and Other Things Message-ID: Dear friends, I'd strongly recommend, in "Lost in the Cosmos", pocketbook edition, reading page 212, especifically where Earthship says "There's no place to return to" (I'm quoting from memory) and C2 answers. The answer is a very clear statement by WP and no doubt gives an idea of what he might have said about current events that sparked an unheard-of controversy in this list when I dared mention them. The whole WP corpus -not necessarily one quote, one novel, book, article- is a masterful portrait, diagnosis and prediction on, among other things, what we have known as "the American way of life", very successfully marketed and sold everywhere (Madison Avenue's hand at this, no doubt, as well as Hollywood). What very much worries me is that even in a literate forum like this one, where most members are suppossed to have a higher-than-average cultural level, I could have been so grossly misinterpreted, misquoted, misread -to say nothing of mistreated. To give one single example: to maliciously suggest I'm an anti-Semite on the basis of my saying that not only Jews have been victims of genocide and persecution, and that Jews themselves are known for doing or having done very recently the same things they rightfully charge the Nazis doing to them, is utterly despicable. Jews, to me, are not "the Chosen People", inferior or superior in any way to, say, Germans (they share a lot in common, by the way), Blacks, Chinese, Vietnamese or Ethiopians. The value of a Jewish life is to me the same as that of an American, Venezuelan or Spaniard. No more, no less. So when I said that I was "fed up" with making Jews a kind of special people to feel especially sorrow about I was stating that their killing at the hands of the Nazis was not very different from the killing of millions in Africa today (have heard of Darfur?). And when I -as WP always did- condemn fundamentalisms of all kinds (Islamic, for instance) I cannot leave out others (Christian or Jewish). And if I condemned the attack on the Twin Towers, where 5000 people died, I cannnot avoid condemning the killing of 25.000 Iraqi civilians by invading US and British forces. For, you see, I do not hold that an American life is worth more than that of an Iraqi -as CNN would have us believe, given the proportional coverage when one American gets killed and when an Iraqi is likewise killed. Or when one Jewish child is murdered and another child, Palestinian, is also murdered (very often by invading Israeli soldiers). I'd like to refer you not only to WP's works but also to others by S.I. Hayakawa (among other things he was a U.S. Senator), Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" and, most especially, Doris Lessing's "Prisons We Choose To Live Inside" -they are all easily available from Amazon.com With all very best wishes, Julio -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From juliorivas at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 16:44:49 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:44:49 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a912$adb409d0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A029@olawexc8.naoxy.com> <002b01c5a912$adb409d0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: Further on a thorny issue... Published on Sunday, July 17, 2005 by the New York Times Follow the Uranium by Frank Rich "I am saying that if anyone was involved in that type of activity which I referred to, they would not be working here." - Ron Ziegler, press secretary to Richard Nixon, defending the presidential aide Dwight Chapin on Oct. 18, 1972. Chapin was convicted in April 1974 of perjury in connection with his relationship to the political saboteur Donald Segretti. "Any individual who works here at the White House has the confidence of the president. They wouldn't be working here at the White House if they didn't have the president's confidence." - Scott McClellan, press secretary to George W. Bush, defending Karl Rove on Tuesday. Well, of course, Karl Rove did it. He may not have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, with its high threshold of criminality for outing a covert agent, but there's no doubt he trashed Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame. We know this not only because of Matt Cooper's e-mail, but also because of Mr. Rove's own history. Trashing is in his nature, and bad things happen, usually through under-the-radar whispers, to decent people (and their wives) who get in his way. In the 2000 South Carolina primary, John McCain's wife, Cindy, was rumored to be a drug addict (and Senator McCain was rumored to be mentally unstable). In the 1994 Texas governor's race, Ann Richards found herself rumored to be a lesbian. The implication that Mr. Wilson was a John Kerry-ish girlie man beholden to his wife for his meal ticket is of a thematic piece with previous mud splattered on Rove political adversaries. The difference is that this time Mr. Rove got caught. Even so, we shouldn't get hung up on him - or on most of the other supposed leading figures in this scandal thus far. Not Matt Cooper or Judy Miller or the Wilsons or the bad guy everyone loves to hate, the former CNN star Robert Novak. This scandal is not about them in the end, any more than Watergate was about Dwight Chapin and Donald Segretti or Woodward and Bernstein. It is about the president of the United States. It is about a plot that was hatched at the top of the administration and in which everyone else, Mr. Rove included, are at most secondary players. To see the main plot, you must sweep away the subplots, starting with the Cooper e-mail. It has been brandished as a smoking gun by Bush bashers and as exculpatory evidence by Bush backers (Mr. Rove, you see, was just trying to ensure that Time had its facts straight). But no one knows what this e-mail means unless it's set against the avalanche of other evidence, most of it secret, including what Mr. Rove said in three appearances before the grand jury. Therein lies the rub, or at least whatever case might be made for perjury. Another bogus subplot, long popular on the left, has it that Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, gave Mr. Novak a free pass out of ideological comradeship. But Mr. Fitzgerald, both young (44) and ambitious, has no record of Starr- or Ashcroft-style partisanship (his contempt for the press notwithstanding) or known proclivity for committing career suicide. What's most likely is that Mr. Novak, more of a common coward than the prince of darkness he fashions himself to be, found a way to spill some beans and avoid Judy Miller's fate. That the investigation has dragged on so long anyway is another indication of the expanded reach of the prosecutorial web. Apparently this is finally beginning to dawn on Mr. Bush's fiercest defenders and on Mr. Bush himself. Hence, last week's erection of the stonewall manned by the almost poignantly clownish Mr. McClellan, who abruptly rendered inoperative his previous statements that any suspicions about Mr. Rove are "totally ridiculous." The morning after Mr. McClellan went mano a mano with his tormentors in the White House press room - "We've secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters," observed Jon Stewart - the ardently pro-Bush New York Post ran only five paragraphs of a wire-service story on Page 12. That conspicuous burial of what was front-page news beyond Murdochland speaks loudly about the rising anxiety on the right. Since then, White House surrogates have been desperately babbling talking points attacking Joseph Wilson as a partisan and a liar. These attacks, too, are red herrings. Let me reiterate: This case is not about Joseph Wilson. He is, in Alfred Hitchcock's parlance, a MacGuffin, which, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a particular event, object, factor, etc., initially presented as being of great significance to the story, but often having little actual importance for the plot as it develops." Mr. Wilson, his mission to Niger to check out Saddam's supposed attempts to secure uranium that might be used in nuclear weapons and even his wife's outing have as much to do with the real story here as Janet Leigh's theft of office cash has to do with the mayhem that ensues at the Bates Motel in "Psycho." This case is about Iraq, not Niger. The real victims are the American people, not the Wilsons. The real culprit - the big enchilada, to borrow a 1973 John Ehrlichman phrase from the Nixon tapes - is not Mr. Rove but the gang that sent American sons and daughters to war on trumped-up grounds and in so doing diverted finite resources, human and otherwise, from fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. That's why the stakes are so high: this scandal is about the unmasking of an ill-conceived war, not the unmasking of a C.I.A. operative who posed for Vanity Fair. So put aside Mr. Wilson's February 2002 trip to Africa. The plot that matters starts a month later, in March, and its omniscient author is Dick Cheney. It was Mr. Cheney (on CNN) who planted the idea that Saddam was "actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." The vice president went on to repeat this charge in May on "Meet the Press," in three speeches in August and on "Meet the Press" yet again in September. Along the way the frightening word "uranium" was thrown into the mix. By September the president was bandying about the u-word too at the United Nations and elsewhere, speaking of how Saddam needed only a softball-size helping of uranium to wreak Armageddon on America. But hardly had Mr. Bush done so than, offstage, out of view of us civilian spectators, the whole premise of this propaganda campaign was being challenged by forces with more official weight than Joseph Wilson. In October, the National Intelligence Estimate, distributed to Congress as it deliberated authorizing war, included the State Department's caveat that "claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa," made public in a British dossier, were "highly dubious." A C.I.A. assessment, sent to the White House that month, determined that "the evidence is weak" and "the Africa story is overblown." AS if this weren't enough, a State Department intelligence analyst questioned the legitimacy of some mysterious documents that had surfaced in Italy that fall and were supposed proof of the Iraq-Niger uranium transaction. In fact, they were blatant forgeries. When Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said as much publicly in the days just before "shock and awe," his announcement made none of the three evening newscasts. The administration's apocalyptic uranium rhetoric, sprinkled with mushroom clouds, had been hammered incessantly for more than five months by then - not merely in the State of the Union address - and could not be dislodged. As scenarios go, this one was about as subtle as "Independence Day" and just as unstoppable a crowd-pleaser. Once we were locked into the war, and no W.M.D.'s could be found, the original plot line was dropped with an alacrity that recalled the "Never mind!" with which Gilda Radner's Emily Litella used to end her misinformed Weekend Update commentaries on "Saturday Night Live." The administration began its dog-ate-my-homework cover-up, asserting that the various warning signs about the uranium claims were lost "in the bowels" of the bureaucracy or that it was all the C.I.A.'s fault or that it didn't matter anyway, because there were new, retroactive rationales to justify the war. But the administration knows how guilty it is. That's why it has so quickly trashed any insider who contradicts its story line about how we got to Iraq, starting with the former Treasury secretary Paul O'Neill and the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke. Next to White House courtiers of their rank, Mr. Wilson is at most a Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. The brief against the administration's drumbeat for war would be just as damning if he'd never gone to Africa. But by overreacting in panic to his single Op-Ed piece of two years ago, the White House has opened a Pandora's box it can't slam shut. Seasoned audiences of presidential scandal know that there's only one certainty ahead: the timing of a Karl Rove resignation. As always in this genre, the knight takes the fall at exactly that moment when it's essential to protect the king. Frank Rich is an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times. He's been with the paper since 1980. On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > See below: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:23 PM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > > > Karey: I'm not sure what your preamble on Hitler Youth Corp means, except > perhaps as an attempt to bring Walker Percy into the discussion. I suspect > it is a technique of invidious association, though in what sense our country > has found a like expression among our youth or in some other sector, escapes > me. I would enjoy some clarification on what our current version of the > "Hitler Youth Corps" may be. > > > > It is a direct reference to Julio Rivas-Pita's comment "that Mr. Bush, ? la > Hitler, invades countries using fake arguments" and to the fact that what, > in retrospect, seems obviously misguided and even evil (Hitler's cause), > often, at the time, seems to have many good points. > > > > The comparison is that WE are the Hitler Youth, not the youth of our > country. Has anyone seen the movie, "The Wave"? > > > > As for The unjust war doctrines are unscientific formulations from the > good-faith debates of ethicists. > > > > Ah, science is the foundation of our ethics and thought? > > > > We can all find one to our liking. > > > > Logical fallacy - just because other options are present, doesn't provide a > logical refutation of the argument just presented. > > > > I've found a few who endorse the war in Iraq, as I do. It may just as > persuasively be argued that military action to remove an international crime > lord with the equivalent of 17 warrants for his arrest, > > > > What? No other international criminal leaders in other countries? No other > genocidal maniacs? In fact, there are dozens. Why don't we take THEM out? > Why Saddam Hussein? Think about it. > > > > who had invaded an ally, > > > > Ten years ago, that war was over. > > > > refused to honor the terms of his surrender from that unprovoked invasion, > directed fire against allied planes in a buffer zone designed to protect the > northern Kurdish regions of his own land from continuing genocide with toxic > weapons, killed more than 250,000 of his own people, some likewise with > toxic weapons (a conservative estimate), provided sanctuary to the first > bomber of the twin towers, as well as the current second most notorious > terrorist in the world, > > > > Again - no less than what has been done by dozens of dictators of less > politically important countries. When did Sudan become important? When oil > was found nearby. > > > > Did anyone see Dateline NBC's special on Uganda a couple of nights ago? If > we want to help, there are far worse and more chaotic places to help. But, > oh wait, Uganda doesn't have any valuable national resources or political > importance to the U.S. > > > > and, if you are to believe the testimony of his chief physicist, had every > intent to develop an atomic weapon, > > > > Read "Follow the Uranium" before commenting further. July 17 New York > Times. > > > > and indeed was in negotiations with North Korea as late as the winter of > 2003 to purchase one "off the shelf." > > > > And, what are we doing about North Korea by the way? > > > > That is plenty of reason to me. In fact, we were 10 years too late in > acting. > > > > As for the Pope condemning the Iraq War, I'm afraid that doesn't have much > moral heft to me. > > > > If I'm correct, the Catholic Church went out of its way to comfort the > Nazis. If the Catholic Church lacks the moral clarity to recognize that the > serial and grotesque rapacities of a dictator demand forceful interdiction, > I'm sorry, but I have no intention to wait around for them to catch up to > me. Anyway, I believe such catch-up is inevitable; I'm sure Catholicism is > not too far down the "to-do" list of Islamicist fury. > > > > As for Abu Ghraib, I believe you are incorrect. > > > > I am not incorrect - evidence abounds and I'm fairly certain any information > I have is not classified - it's common knowledge. In addition, my father > was in charge of the Reserves in the South ten years ago and wrote a paper > on their "unreadiness" to go to war that was roundly ignored. The things > that were done in Abu Ghraib were done also in Guatanemo Bay, and other > places - and the ways they were done were similar in fashion and type to > each other. And if you don't want to accept that at face value, common > sense tells you that is how all scandals work - and military scandals as > well, and other than the fact that the Geneva Convention was denounced by > the administration as "antiquated" and Senator Joe Biden chastized similar > comments in Congress - saying his son was in the military - were he to > become a prisoner, what would happen? > > > > It was isolated and was not connected to a higher chain of command. If I am > wrong, I would be interested in proof. It was brutish and obscene of course > but hardly characteristic of our treatment of prisoners, there or elsewhere. > Obviously it cannot be compared to how "prisoners of war" are treated by > Islamicists, as those poor souls get their heads sawed off -- something > perhaps closer to "a gross and unapologetic abandonment of the Geneva > Convention"? Moreover, our incidents of abuse are followed by swift > remediation. We are now constructing a new holding facility in Guatanemo > Bay, Cuba. > > > > After many years and many lawsuits filed and much publicity - that has been > no swift remediation, it has been a reluctant and forced change. > > > > It is one of the most salutary aspects of our nation that we learn from our > mistakes. > > > > Vietnam? > > > > Anyway, in the historic scheme of wars, Abu Ghraib barely amounts to a > scandal. > > > > You are talking out of both sides of your mouth - one, you say it is > horrible and not characteristic, then you say it really wasn't much of a bad > thing at all. The problem is people were trained and condoned, then blamed, > for this when it became known and political. Whatever happened to "the buck > stops here"? > > > > And then of course, there is the same old claim that we are all being "spun" > as a part of a "fascist" fear-mongering. We are manipulated by Karl Rove and > "swept along" by vulgar mob sentiments. I can only speak for myself, but I > am not. I wonder why it so bewildering to so many to think that people can > reasonably and on their own arrive at the decision that a war against > terrorists, > > > > But wait, the terrorists weren't basing their camp and cause in Iraq!! If > there was an association there, it was only secondary or tertiary - after > Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. You have been "spun" if you are still > associating the Iraq with 9/11 terrorists intent to wipe us from the face of > the earth! > > > > who have declared their intent to wipe us from the face of the earth, makes > basic sense? Somehow we must be "influenced" to believe this? Anyway, I'm > curious who is being swept anywhere. More than half of the population > currently opposes the war in Iraq. The overwhelming majority of the media > opposes it. Most of the free world opposes it. The president has collapsed > in the polls. That's a pretty poor job of fascist brainwashing, if you ask > me. Karl Rove should be fired. > > > > If you ask me, yes, I completely agree, Karl Rove should be fired. For > different reasons. > > > > As for Ernest Becker's meditations on the neurotic roots of war, nothing > better underscores, with all due respect, the abstractions of academia. > > > > Read the book, then we can discuss it. Before you determine it to be a > postmodern rumination on gender deconstruction or some abstract > navel-gazing, read it. And it in fact relates to Percy's concerns and > pursuits more than anything else in this conversation - the meaning of life > - and key to the psychological motivations of most humans. > > > > If I have a neurosis it is to guarantee that I and/or my fellow citizens > don't get our heads chopped off. And my fear or concern doesn't spring from > any dark, Freudian recess of anxiety responsible for phantasmal projections > of psychosis. It springs from people chopping our heads off. If killing my > enemy gives me meaning and purpose, it is a good meaning and purpose, and > reflects total sanity, and I am glad of it. Becker belongs high on the > bookshelf in this conflict. > > > > And to Julio: I would read Orwell a little more closely, especially his > essay on wartime England, "The Lion and the Unicorn." You might find his > scorn for pacifism rather interesting. > > > > Nowhere in your disquisition on our "fascist" state do you address this > fundamental question: what do we do in the face of a nihilistic, barbarous, > and genuinely fascist movement that wishes both literally and figuratively > to decapitate us. > > > > If we become like them, by engaging in their tactics and arguments, the > problem multiplies. This is true of individuals as well as nations. > > > > A movement which has no interest in sharing this planet with us, and will > accept massive self-immolation as a price for our destruction. > > > > You discuss, you talk, you converse, you deal, you understand, you listen, > you meet needs on both sides. Look at how we handled the end of WWI vs. > the end of WWII. And one determination of a "just war" is that it is always > as a last resort. The Just War doctrine you would like to portray as some > abstract ineffective liberal agenda, but in fact, it is a reasonable and > effective and practical way to determine when to go to war. > > > > Until the anti-war movement can address, even admit this, I cannot take any > of these arguments seriously ? any protests against Don Rumsfeld or Karl > Rove or Dick Cheney man nothing to me. They are merely ideological > fulminations -- elegant and theoretical and nugatory. > > > > No one at a top level in the Bush administration ever served time in combat > - not Bush, not Cheney, not Rumsfeld, not Rice. (Colin Powell did, but he > is gone - I think for a reason.) So, having never seen war, they can > easily send other's sons and daughters to war - for abstract causes. Who is > the abstracted one now? I imagine many or most of us teach in college - and > many of our students have been soldiers. I have many in my class who tell > me what it is like over there - one woman retired after 25 years (why 25? > you retire after 20, for 1/2 your base pay, or 30 or 2/3 your base pay, but > not 25) because of changing military polices and the situation in Iraq now > (very dangerous, and more so every day.) > > > > They do not help me understand the real threats to my culture or how to > answer them. > > > > This has been said to be a war of "non-sacrifice" by America's citizens. In > WWII, we gave up things, and lifestyles, and people, to help the war. We > feel it not one bit here. How is your life different from before the war, > other than the content of your daily news (unless of course you have a son, > daughter, or relative there). What are you going to do to help preserve > your culture? > > > > I guess the major "cognitive" divide is simple. Either one takes the > position that we are at "war" or we are not at war. > > > > Either-or fallacy. Oversimplification. (You can tell I teach logic and > critical thinking!!) > > > > I believe we are at war. > > > > With whom? Or is it an abstract? Terrorism? The comparison of Iraq has > been made with the Vietnam war - both were wars against abstractions - the > one, communism; the second, terrorism. > > > > I believe we will be for many years to come. I also believe that within the > next five years most of the world ? with the possible exception of academia > -- will understand this, to the point at which there will simply won't be > too many articles about Abu Ghraibs, or WMDs, or fascist propagandists, or > anything of the like. Not to say that there should not be. But it will be > widely understood that we are in a war for the survival of all that we value > and cherish in western civilization. > > > > REALLY??? > > > > This is the first stages of that war. That is simply my opinion. > > > > Now, as for what Walker Percy would say to our current problems? I do not > know. I only know that he prized and defended western liberal values, > science, art, education, freedom of speech, "truth and beauty and suchlike." > I can't help but think he would have had some form of intelligent and > forceful response to a barbaric movement dedicated to snuffing them all out. > It may very well be that he would have opposed the war in Iraq as either > impracticable or stupid. But he would have offered some kind of alternative. > > > > Exactly what the Bush administration did NOT consider. (Alternatives, that > is.) And exactly what a Just War demands. > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Karey > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:21 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Yes, I saw the apology! A wise political move of Robertson's part! It is > telling that Robertson's comment was not condemned by the administration, > since it is a political comment, but then, they might lose their > fundamentalist voting base (Rove is practical). Perhaps the apology had > political encouragement and prompting. I didn't (forgot to) overtly refer > to Pat Robertson below, but clearly his actions were meant to be interpreted > through Becker - any fundamentalist (Christian or Muslim (or other) - they > actually have more in common with each other than they do with moderates of > their own faiths) is devoting himself to a non-transcendent "causa-sui," > though clearly mistaking it for a transcendent one. > > Eric Rudolph was just convicted yesterday in Atlanta (the Olympic bomber, > also abortion clinics and gay nightclub bombings) of life X several lives in > prison - he showed no remorse, despite the loss of innocent lives due to his > actions. He felt he had a "cause" - and that history, if not the truth, > will eventually exonerate him. Percy's Lancelot operated under the same > assumption - of all Percy's heroes, Lancelot was the one who was the most > "off." > > There is a T-shirt for American travelers: > http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.6120915?zoom=yes > > KP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Rivas-Pita > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:39 PM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > Dear Karey, > > Thank you very much for your most detailed and lucid analysis. > Needless to say, I fully agree with you. > (By the way, my grandfather on my mother's side lived most of his life > in the U.S., was an American citizen and is buried in Irvington, N.J., > and I grew up in Spain believing, perhaps somewhat na?vely, that the > U.S.A. was what he said it was, 'the greatest country in the world'). > > Also by the way this is "Reverend" Pat Robertson's last -but probably > not final- word on Mr. Ch?vez's assassination proposal and AP's > "misquote": > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html > > With all best wishes, > > Julio > > On 8/24/05, Karey wrote: > > > > As you all know, Percy, in his younger days, visited Germany - in the > early > > 1930's I believe? Correct me on this if I'm wrong - (a simple check in > > Tolson or Samway would tell me, but I'm much too comfortably ensconced at > my > > desk to get up right now!) At any rate, as you also all know, while he > was > > there, Percy met and was much enamored of the "Hitler Youth" for their > > loyalty, devotion, sense of purpose, sense of meaning and direction in > life. > > And Percy was an intelligent, clear-thinking man - he must have had a > real > > reason to feel that way - real concrete evidence that these youth had > > something that stood out. Then WWII happened, and one can only imagine > what > > he felt inside about his earlier misguided admiration for the Hitler > Youth. > > > > The Iraq war has been declared by the Pope to be an unjust war according > to > > Catholic Just War doctrine. (A guideline used not just by the church, but > > by the government and the military as well, by the way). Jimmy Carter > > declared it an unjust war - right up into the night before we attacked, > when > > he reneged in a front page article in the Atlanta Journal and > Constitution, > > I can only imagine due to political pressure. What makes it unjust? On > > almost every point of the doctrine, including what Julio Rivas-Pita states > > below: The United States was an aggressor - and, worse, it was an > > aggression built on lies. Today, it is not only extreme leftists such as > > Michael Moore who will question whether WMD were in Iraq. Evidence > > continues to be uncovered- that the Karl Rove political genius-machine > was > > extremely effectively at manipulating public perception and spinning the > > message to hide the real situation... that in itself is a dissertation > too > > lengthy to document here, but articles such as "Follow the Uranium" in the > > July 17, 2005, New York Times only begin to scratch the surface of it. In > > fact, most people acknowledge that a false link was made between 9/11 and > > Iraq - the only question up for debate was how knowingly false (on the > > administration's side) was it? In fact, the Iraq war has sidetracked us > > from the real 9/11 cause (the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan) and > > increased terrorist activity, as well as further incited hard feelings > > towards American - even our allies are starting to hate us! Since when > did > > France become a country to despise? Hence, I find Julio Rivas-Pita's > e-mail > > not at all unusual, rather, it is very much the norm overseas, and rather > > than asking him to take a drink of Early Times, I think a far better > course > > of action is for Americans to put down their own bottles of Early Times > and > > take a close look at themselves and the actions of their government and > > think very carefully before they cast their vote in the next election. > > > > Then we have the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - a gross and unapologetic > > abandonment of the Geneva Convention - and while scapegoats are being used > > (the MP reservists involved) to take the blame, in fact, it was not an > > isolated incident, it was sanctioned from above (how far above?), and > these > > enlisted reservists were merely part-timers whose real career was > something > > far different - they learned such torture techniques because they were > > trained (by the CIA and the military) in such techniques, and the higher > ups > > have said what to this and to similar practices in Guatanamo Bay (and who > > knows where else)? That the Geneva Convention is "antiquated." This by > the > > way is just what we know - we were never shown the "worst" abuses; those > > pictures were withheld from us, and do you think that just because playful > > digital cameras have not caught other events, they do not exist? > > > > By contrast, I am incredibly impressed with Anthony Principi, Chairman of > > the Military Base Realignment and Closing Commission (www.brac.gov). He > was > > on C-SPAN last night. The integrity shone - with Principi vowing (and > > delivering) "honesty and transparency" in all the commission's > deliberations > > and decisions. By the way, Rumsfeld's recommended base closings more than > > doubled the recommended closings in 4 previous rounds of base closings - > > combined. Why? Financial reasons. The Iraq War has not strengthened the > > United States from future attacks, it has weakened us - and our economic > and > > military strength - considerably. > > > > The American people accept this because of they are being "spun" - the > > logical fallacy "appeal to fear" - which by the way, is a characteristics > of > > fascist states - the building up of nationalism and military fervor > through > > inciting fear in the people. In fact, terrorism has gotten worse since > and > > because of the Iraqui war. You get what you give. But, as part of the > > package and by necessity to accomplish the objective, a sense of loyalty > and > > group camaraderie (patriotism) is incited - but not one that is examined > > carefully, logically or critically. We are swept along with the emotions > of > > the moment, like a winning crowd at a college football game or the Hitler > > Youth. (Ahh, Percy's "totemism" no less.) We don't even WANT to think > > critically about it, for it satisfies a deep need inside of us - but > > insidiously so. > > > > The answer to Percy's Hitler Youth question can be found in Ernest > Becker's > > Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Denial of Death. What compels us most, > > what determines our actions and motivations and neuroses and desires most, > > is our sublimated terror of death - our individual deaths - which we all > > know is coming, yet rarely think about consciously (or most of us rarely > > think about). So one answer is to find a "causa-sui" - a cause larger > than > > ourselves for which to live. To quote Becker: "it is a world-view, some > > kind of affirmative collective ideology in which the person can perform > the > > living drama of his acceptance as a creature. Only in this way can the > > neurotic come out of his isolation to become part of such a larger and > > higher wholeness as religion has always represented" (Becker, 198-1999). > > Out of this, comes meaning, purpose, comfort, identity, > self-actualization. > > The problem is this - if the purpose for which we live is not transcendent > > (and not even religion is transcendent; religion, as in religious > > denominations - Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.,- is not, only God is), > > then we must logically be on the other side of something else - we have > > enemies. (The defeat of our enemies gives us meaning and purpose.) > > > > But, more importantly, if we devote ourselves, find our meaning in life, > to > > a non-transcendent cause, our cause is false. Just like the Hitler Youth. > > Has anyone noticed the great purpose and conviction with which Bush and > his > > cronies proceed forward? Little reflection, lots of purpose. That has > been > > spun as positive - in fact, it's quite insidious. Kerry's globalism (a > > foreign wife no less) and thoughtful reflections were spun as a detriment, > > when it was just what America needed. > > > > Today, even our friends (allies) are becoming enemies - (even our own > > citizens are "enemies" to the administration - we are closely monitored > and > > have lost many of our rights to privacy). Nationalism, most obviously, is > > never transcendent. The patriotism in America today - at the expense of > > others' (yes, even prisoners') rights and humanity - smacks of that. > Julio > > Rivas-Pita is on the money, in my opinion. We Americans can't see it. > > > > But whether anything I've said here is true or not, we would do well to > act > > with humility, to not pompously scoff - to pay careful attention to what > > others - Europeans, Middle-Easterners, South Americans, Asians - feel and > > think about our country. In a global economy, to act as though we are > > cowboys from Texas - claiming what we want through might and force - is to > > act as though we are brutes and boors. It is also to eventually fail > > because the might and force we think we have is, quite simply, not there. > > Our days of global supremacy are coming to an end - the Euro is now higher > > than the dollar, Japan is more economically successful than the U.S., > > China's economic growth and promise has been compared to America's in the > > 19th century. The Bush administration has done nothing to consider any > of > > that - it is not a forward thinking administration, it is a backward one. > > > > Gas prices are $3 a gallon in Atlanta - I've heard they're $5 in > California > > (any Californians care to comment?) Has no one made the connection? > > > > Karey > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J Rivas-Pita > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:36 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? > > > > Dear friends, > > > > In a quite Percy-vein, let me ask those of you (the majority, I > > suppose) who live in the U.S.: Do you realize that you may be living > > in a terrorist superpower, by now? > > > > Not only in the sense that Mr. Bush, ? la Hitler, invades countries > > using fake arguments, but also in that people like this > > "televangelist" Pat Robertson -who clearly belongs into some nuts > > asylum- can get away with TV appeals to assassinate Venezuela's > > President without even blushing, saying that Venezuelans supossedly > > are within U.S.'s "sphere of influence"? > > > > And all Mr. Rumsfeld and the State Department can say is that > > Robertson is "a private citizen" entitled to his views... Owning a > > large fundamentalist "Christian" TV network that reaches a vast > > audience, by the way (which both Rumsfeld and the State Department > > conveniently forgot). > > > > What would you say, for instance, if someone here in Caracas ventured > > a similar proposal to "take out" Mr. Bush -assuredly a far greater > > risk for all of us than President Ch?vez, if only because he has > > control over thousands of nuclear warheads? > > > > With all best wishes, > > > > Julio > > > > PS. Not a Ch?vez fan, by the way... > > > > -- > > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > ________________________________ > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From karey at kareyperkins.com Sat Aug 27 17:04:58 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:04:58 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Abu Ghraib general speaks out Message-ID: <002301c5ab4a$fbfeb330$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Robert & Tommy, you asked for evidence for what I spoke of, here are excerpts from an article on the torture at Abu Ghraib that shows that it goes all the way to the top. The link to the full article as well as the interview is below. She is writing a book, due out in April. Basic point is: don't believe the media or the administration because you aren't getting the whole truth. It is naive and gullible to do so in general, and particularly in this time period with this administration. Now if you know someone in the military, or better yet, military intelligence, the information you get is going to be far more accurate - though incomplete because some of it is classified and they can't tell you all that they know. Who here has a son or daughter in the military or in Iraq? A father or mother? Or sister or brother? Unless you do, be very careful about saying what is going one, and about choosing war as an answer unless it is a last resort. My student who just retired from the Navy after 25 years, the last few in Iraq, says it is more dangerous than it has ever been and keeps getting worse and that's why she retired early. Excerpts: Army Reserve Brigadier General Janis Karpinski was in charge of the infamous Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq when the now famous torture photographs were taken in fall of 2003. She was reprimanded and demoted to Colonel for her failure to properly supervise the prison guards. Karpinski is the highest ranking officer to be sanctioned for the mistreatment of prisoners. On August 3, 2005, I interviewed Janis Karpinski. In the most comprehensive public statement she has made to date, Karpinski deconstructs the entire United States military operation in Iraq with some astonishing revelations. When Karpinski got to Abu Ghraib, "there was a completely different story than what we were being told in the United States. It was out of control. There weren't enough soldiers. Nobody had the right equipment. They were driving around in unarmored vehicles, some of them without doors ... So, knowing that they were ill-equipped and ill-prepared, they pushed them out anyway, because those two three-stars wanted their fifteen minutes of fame, I suppose." **** When Karpinski asked to see the log books, the sergeant told her that the Criminal Investigation Division had taken everything except for something on a pole outside the little office they were using. "It was a memorandum signed by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, authorizing a short list, maybe 6 or 8 techniques: use of dogs; stress positions; loud music; deprivation of food; keeping the lights on, those kinds of things," Karpinski said. "And then a handwritten message over to the side that appeared to be the same handwriting as the signature, and that signature was Secretary Rumsfeld's. And it said, 'Make sure this happens' with two exclamation points. And that was the only thing they had. Everything else had been confiscated." **** Karpinski describes what happened when General Geoffrey Miller arrived at Abu Ghraib: "The most pronounced difference was when Miller came to visit. He came right after Rumsfeld's visit ... And he said that he was going to use a template from Guant?namo Bay to 'Gitmo-ize' the operations out at Abu Ghraib." **** I had been hesitant to speak out before because this Administration is so vindictive. But now I will ... Anybody who confronts this Administration or Rumsfeld or the Pentagon with a true assessment, they find themselves either out of a job, out of their positions, fired, relieved or chastised. Their career comes to an end. *** Speaking about the war, Karpinski said, "Iraq was a huge country, and when you have people largely saying now, 'He may have been a dictator, but we were better under Saddam,' this Administration needs to take notice. And at some point you have to say, 'Stop the train, because it's completely derailed. How do we fix it?' But in an effort to do that, you have to admit that you made a few mistakes, and this Administration is not willing to admit any mistakes whatsoever." For the full article and interview, see: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082405Z.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Sat Aug 27 17:05:52 2005 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:05:52 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Fw: women and the new, improved Iraq Message-ID: <002701c5ab4b$1be1b1c0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> ----- Original Message ----- From: ken denney To: Karey Perkins Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 10:37 AM Subject: women and the new, improved Iraq Tell us again about the women, George Remember Safia Taleb al-Suhail? She was the Iraqi woman George W. Bush trotted out for his State of the Union address earlier this year, the daughter of a man murdered by Saddam Hussein who provided the feel-good moment of the president's performance when, sitting up there in the balcony with Laura Bush, she embraced the mother of an American soldier killed in Iraq. We wonder if she'll be invited back for next year's speech. Bush says he knows that Iraq's still unfinished constitution will be a victory for women because Condoleezza Rice told him so. But if the president were to check in with Suhail, he might come away with a different story. According to a Reuters report, Suhail, who is now Iraq's ambassador to Egypt, believes that the draft Iraqi constitution represents a major setback for the women of her country. "When we came back from exile, we thought we were going to improve rights and the position of women," she said. "But look what has happened -- we have lost all the gains we made over the last 30 years. It's a big disappointment." She is concerned -- as many Iraqis are -- that the draft constitution allows religious sects to run Iraq's family courts, likely leaving decisions about divorce, inheritance and other issues important to women in the hands of Islamic clerics. "This will lead to creating religious courts," she said. "But we should be giving priority to the law." Suhail said the United States has sold out Iraq's women in the drive to get a constitution -- any constitution -- approved by the Iraq's National Assembly. "We have received news that we were not backed by our friends, including the Americans," she said. "They left the Islamists to come to an agreement with the Kurds." ken denney kdenney at mindspring.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hghwy6 at aol.com Sun Aug 28 00:32:03 2005 From: hghwy6 at aol.com (hghwy6 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:32:03 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Pretense for Diarhoea In-Reply-To: References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A029@olawexc8.naoxy.com> <002b01c5a912$adb409d0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> Message-ID: <43113E43.3040605@aol.com> Good Lord - thanks for the info! I'd never heard of this New-York Times before. Fortuna was really on her game when I signed up for the Walker Percy discussion list; otherwise I would have continued blissfully unaware of this startling situation in the "Middle-East" (how far is that from Peoria?). Keep me posted. In the meantime, I'll just check the editorial's conclusion against my handy dandy WWWS (What Would Walker Say) Projection Key in order to contrive the precise manner in which p. 237, paragraph ii, of Cosmos totally validates my totally original insight of the moment on the topic of the day (hint: we haven't heard Rove mention Bernard's Star lately). Also, though I recognize the dire scarcity of political propaganda these days, I was just wondering - hypothetically - how one might unsubscribe from a listserve that is filling one's inbox with frequent messages entirely off topic. This was probably in the introductory email, but one does get a little hasty with the delete button these days. Until later, John, Your Pacifist Working Boy *Bonus factoid: Spell-check replaces "Percy" with "Perky." I think we ALL know what that means...turn that practiced scowl upside down people! From wpercy2 at ibiblio.org Sun Aug 28 11:23:28 2005 From: wpercy2 at ibiblio.org (Henry P. Mills) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:23:28 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] FW: Ms. Perkins? (for Basil David Burns) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: "Basil David Burns" > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:39:23 +0000 > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Ms. Perkins? > > > Dear Admirers of Walker, > > I am hoping for three things: 1) First, I hope someone might tell me how I > might subscribe to this list, being none too agile at these activities; 2) I > hope that someone might tell me how to get in touch with a Ms. (Dr.?) Perkins > who wrote a dissertation on Dr. Percy -- or perhaps you might write me back > yourself if you are reading this!; 3) introduce myself to the list. > > I am a monk at St. Joseph Abbey where Dr. Percy sometimes made retreats. His > grandson is my friend, and his wife still often comes here and even tolerates > my homilies with a lady-like gentility; Dr. Percy is, quite literally, buried > in my backyard, and I have often visited the stone that is the echo of his > life to ask him of the permanent things. In any case, I am considering my own > dissertation work on Percy. Please help! > > Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness, should you respond. May God bless > you in all you undertake. > > Respectfully, > > Fr. Basil Burns, O.S.B. > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Basil David Burns" Subject: Ms. Perkins? Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:39:23 +0000 Size: 2158 URL: From juliorivas at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 11:38:14 2005 From: juliorivas at gmail.com (J Rivas-Pita) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:38:14 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Pretense for Diarhoea In-Reply-To: <43113E43.3040605@aol.com> References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A029@olawexc8.naoxy.com> <002b01c5a912$adb409d0$0401000a@220acadf9550KP> <43113E43.3040605@aol.com> Message-ID: "Un dessein si funeste / S'il n'est digne d'Atree, est digne de Thyeste " On 8/28/05, hghwy6 at aol.com wrote: > Good Lord - thanks for the info! I'd never heard of this New-York Times > before. Fortuna was really on her game when I signed up for the Walker > Percy discussion list; otherwise I would have continued blissfully > unaware of this startling situation in the "Middle-East" (how far is > that from Peoria?). Keep me posted. > > In the meantime, I'll just check the editorial's conclusion against my > handy dandy WWWS (What Would Walker Say) Projection Key in order to > contrive the precise manner in which p. 237, paragraph ii, of Cosmos > totally validates my totally original insight of the moment on the topic > of the day (hint: we haven't heard Rove mention Bernard's Star lately). > > Also, though I recognize the dire scarcity of political propaganda these > days, I was just wondering - hypothetically - how one might unsubscribe > from a listserve that is filling one's inbox with frequent messages > entirely off topic. This was probably in the introductory email, but > one does get a little hasty with the delete button these days. > > Until later, > John, Your Pacifist Working Boy > > *Bonus factoid: Spell-check replaces "Percy" with "Perky." I think we > ALL know what that means...turn that practiced scowl upside down people! > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- Be Happy! (Fr. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) S? feliz! (P. Benito Ballesteros, OSB, 1924-1996) From padraig at well.com Sun Aug 28 12:53:55 2005 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:53:55 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy and Contemplation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The note from Fr. Basil Burns brings something up about Walker Percy. Can anyone comment or discuss his late-in-life interest about and decision to become a Benedictine oblate? I recently attended a silent retreat given by a Benedictine and the emphasis was contemplative life. Did Walker (who was always thoughtful) move more towards the quiet and silence, the emptying of the mind to allow God's presence to be more fully within him? Just some thoughts, Patrick On Aug 28, 2005, at 8:23 AM, Henry P. Mills wrote: > >> >> From: "Basil David Burns" >> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:39:23 +0000 >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> Subject: Ms. Perkins? >> >> >> Dear Admirers of Walker, >> >> I am hoping for three things: 1) First, I hope someone might tell >> me how I might subscribe to this list, being none too agile at >> these activities; 2) I hope that someone might tell me how to get >> in touch with a Ms. (Dr.?) Perkins who wrote a dissertation on Dr. >> Percy -- or perhaps you might write me back yourself if you are >> reading this!; 3) introduce myself to the list. >> >> I am a monk at St. Joseph Abbey where Dr. Percy sometimes made >> retreats. His grandson is my friend, and his wife still often >> comes here and even tolerates my homilies with a lady-like >> gentility; Dr. Percy is, quite literally, buried in my backyard, >> and I have often visited the stone that is the echo of his life to >> ask him of the permanent things. In any case, I am considering my >> own dissertation work on Percy. Please help! >> >> Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness, should you respond. >> May God bless you in all you undertake. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Fr. Basil Burns, O.S.B. >> >> > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > From: "Basil David Burns" > Date: August 27, 2005 11:39:23 PM PDT > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Ms. Perkins? > > > > > Dear Admirers of Walker, > I am hoping for three things: 1) First, I hope someone might tell > me how I might subscribe to this list, being none too agile at > these activities; 2) I hope that someone might tell me how to get > in touch with a Ms. (Dr.?) Perkins who wrote a dissertation on Dr. > Percy -- or perhaps you might write me back yourself if you are > reading this!; 3) introduce myself to the list. > I am a monk at St. Joseph Abbey where Dr. Percy sometimes made > retreats. His grandson is my friend, and his wife still often > comes here and even tolerates my homilies with a lady-like > gentility; Dr. Percy is, quite literally, buried in my backyard, > and I have often visited the stone that is the echo of his life to > ask him of the permanent things. In any case, I am considering my > own dissertation work on Percy. Please help! > Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness, should you respond. > May God bless you in all you undertake. > Respectfully, > Fr. Basil Burns, O.S.B. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Mon Aug 29 11:06:59 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:06:59 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD010ED2A9@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Anybody else out there in Percy land want off this list? Even ol' Tom More wouldn't have found any humor in any of this... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:53 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] U.S. : Terrorist SuperPower? That's more like it. It is curious that in all of these exchanges nobody has picked up on Marcus Smith's apt observation that far from being off topic, Walker dealt with very much the same sort of conflict in his (as usual) prescient manner in Love in the Ruins. This is perhaps not one of his more pupular books but in light of the present discussion certainly would bear a deep read for anyone who is interested in the debate but who may have overlooked the book. Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JHForest at cs.com Tue Aug 30 06:54:22 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:54:22 EDT Subject: [percy-l] not yet time to sign off Message-ID: >> Anybody else out there in Percy land want off this list? Even ol' Tom More wouldn't have found any humor in any of this? << I hope you will stay with the WP List. Every List has its occasional detours. I expect it won't take long before we're back to Walker Percy and his writings as a main topic... In the meantime, often one can tell from the subject line items that can be deleted without taking time to read them. Jim Forest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Tue Aug 30 09:24:02 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:24:02 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] not yet time to sign off Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD010ED547@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of JHForest at cs.com Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:54 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] not yet time to sign off >> Anybody else out there in Percy land want off this list? Even ol' Tom More wouldn't have found any humor in any of this... << I hope you will stay with the WP List. Every List has its occasional detours. I expect it won't take long before we're back to Walker Percy and his writings as a main topic... In the meantime, often one can tell from the subject line items that can be deleted without taking time to read them. Jim Forest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Aug 30 23:22:30 2005 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:22:30 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] not yet time to sign off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a question to get us back on topic: What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" From JHForest at cs.com Wed Aug 31 08:04:19 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:04:19 EDT Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <7f.65618cdf.3046f6c3@cs.com> >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" << What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the sheer delight of reading his books. A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, I'd take the search." It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim is a person on a search. Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveduty at austin.rr.com Wed Aug 31 08:11:20 2005 From: daveduty at austin.rr.com (Dave Duty) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:11:20 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <7f.65618cdf.3046f6c3@cs.com> References: <7f.65618cdf.3046f6c3@cs.com> Message-ID: <43159E68.1080909@austin.rr.com> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New Orleans area residents? Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones are ok -- God Bless -- Dave JHForest at cs.com wrote: > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about > this > Percy guy, anyway?" << > > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the > sheer delight of reading his books. > > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, > I'd take the search." > > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim > is a person on a search. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: > forestflier at gmail.com) > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > * * * > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstuartchapman at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 09:42:03 2005 From: cstuartchapman at yahoo.com (Stuart Chapman) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <43159E68.1080909@austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050831134204.7736.qmail@web40528.mail.yahoo.com> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. It's just awful. Stuart Dave Duty wrote: Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New Orleans area residents? Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones are ok -- God Bless -- Dave JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" << What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the sheer delight of reading his books. A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, I'd take the search." It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim is a person on a search. Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * --------------------------------- --An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 31 10:04:22 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:04:22 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD0116F0DE@batman.Bluegrass.Board> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) is gone forever... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. It's just awful. Stuart Dave Duty wrote: Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New Orleans area residents? Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones are ok -- God Bless -- Dave JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" << What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the sheer delight of reading his books. A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, I'd take the search." It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim is a person on a search. Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * _____ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Aug 31 11:07:48 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:07:48 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC221290F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, buffeting about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it through the next few hours. But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. Karl -----Original Message----- . From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) is gone forever... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. It's just awful. Stuart Dave Duty wrote: Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New Orleans area residents? Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones are ok -- God Bless -- Dave JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" << What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the sheer delight of reading his books. A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, I'd take the search." It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim is a person on a search. Jim Forest * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com ) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * _____ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Aug 31 11:57:17 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:57:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC221290F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC221290F@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <1125503837.4315d35d70990@webmail.iu.edu> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to my college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. That feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It seemed to be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to class. -David Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted to > Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, and > the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, buffeting > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." > > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday afternoon, > birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear blue sky -- he > should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he finds himself > profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement one feels when > a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of the ordinariness > of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and don't know what to do, > and wonder how in the hell you'll make it through the next few hours. > > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of returning > to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would write of that > experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's been many years > since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in the Ruins? Maybe > someone out there can point to a book or passage. > > Karl > -----Original Message----- . > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and loved > for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) is gone > forever... > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. > > It's just awful. > > Stuart > > Dave Duty wrote: > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > Orleans area residents? > > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones are > ok -- God Bless -- Dave > > JHForest at cs.com wrote: > > > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about > this > Percy guy, anyway?" << > > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the > sheer delight of reading his books. > > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, > I'd take the search." > > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim > is a person on a search. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com > (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com > ) > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > * * * > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > _____ > > Start your > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > ******************************************************************************** **************** > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is > only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its > attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client > and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended > recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all > applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail > and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the > intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, > distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the > sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. > ******************************************************************************** **************** > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Aug 31 12:23:38 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:23:38 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212911@at01.sheamcnitt.com> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The aftermath or reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the fundamental need to continue searching. Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad news; how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. Several weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the talking heads was palpable. Karl -----Original Message----- From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to my college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. That feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It seemed to be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to class. -David Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted > to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, > and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, buffeting > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." > > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday > afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear > blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he > finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement > one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of > the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and > don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it > through the next few hours. > > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of > returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would > write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's > been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in > the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. > > Karl > -----Original Message----- . > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and > loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) > is gone forever... > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. > > It's just awful. > > Stuart > > Dave Duty wrote: > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > Orleans area residents? > > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones > are ok -- God Bless -- Dave > > JHForest at cs.com wrote: > > > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about > this > Percy guy, anyway?" << > > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the > sheer delight of reading his books. > > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, > I'd take the search." > > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim > is a person on a search. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's > e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative > address: forestflier at gmail.com ) > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > * * * > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > _____ > > Start your > > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > ************************************************************************ ******** **************** > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, > is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, > and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the > attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this > message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the > sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the > intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent > responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are > hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, > downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. > ************************************************************************ ******** **************** > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Aug 31 12:36:46 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:36:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD0116F1AB@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Absolutely - the disaster in New Orleans is right out of Lost in The Cosmos. Those poor folks are having an incredible and disastrous "rotation"... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:24 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The aftermath or reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the fundamental need to continue searching. Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad news; how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. Several weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the talking heads was palpable. Karl -----Original Message----- From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to my college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. That feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It seemed to be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to class. -David Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted > to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, > and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, buffeting > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." > > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday > afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear > blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he > finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement > one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of > the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and > don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it > through the next few hours. > > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of > returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would > write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's > been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in > the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. > > Karl > -----Original Message----- . > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and > loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) > is gone forever... > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. > > It's just awful. > > Stuart > > Dave Duty wrote: > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > Orleans area residents? > > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones > are ok -- God Bless -- Dave > > JHForest at cs.com wrote: > > > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about > this > Percy guy, anyway?" << > > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the > sheer delight of reading his books. > > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, > I'd take the search." > > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a pilgrim > is a person on a search. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's > e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative > address: forestflier at gmail.com ) > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > * * * > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > _____ > > Start your > > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > ************************************************************************ ******** **************** > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, > is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, > and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the > attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this > message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the > sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the > intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent > responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are > hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, > downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. > ************************************************************************ ******** **************** > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From padraig at well.com Wed Aug 31 21:30:33 2005 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:30:33 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <43159E68.1080909@austin.rr.com> References: <7f.65618cdf.3046f6c3@cs.com> <43159E68.1080909@austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <7C9424FE-BBC6-463E-9183-7C8038EF301A@well.com> Oh Nikki and all our New Orleanians (All Those at Loyola NO!): Prayers and hopes for quick recovery are constantly going your way. Marcus, you too are in our prayers. It transcends thought to know what you are going through, but I hope that you are in a comfortable way. Sincere concern, patrick On Aug 31, 2005, at 5:11 AM, Dave Duty wrote: > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > Orleans area residents? > > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved > ones are ok -- God Bless -- Dave > > JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >> about this >> Percy guy, anyway?" << >> >> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >> the sheer delight of reading his books. >> >> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >> fiction and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> >> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, >> I'd take the search." >> >> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >> for no >> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> pilgrim >> is a person on a search. >> >> Jim Forest >> >> * * * >> Jim & Nancy Forest >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: >> jhforest at gmail.com) >> Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: >> forestflier at gmail.com) >> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> * * * >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// >> lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From padraig at well.com Wed Aug 31 21:40:24 2005 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:40:24 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD0116F1AB@batman.Bluegrass.Board> References: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD0116F1AB@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Message-ID: These ideas resound with my reading of Percy. However, the "feeling" of literary and perceived/imagined disaster--and that no matter how real someone writes is all we can see in a novel or film--pales in the wake of such a natural disaster as hurricane Katrina. Nonetheless, perhaps this, too, is what is so great about this Percy guy: He sees and relates the hope/experience that one feels once in the throes of that life-altering disaster/shift. After the healing and the rebuilding, a Percyean/Percyite may only hope that a number of lives can become "alive" in the sense of Tom and Binx and Lance and the others. It weighs heavy on the heart to balance the philosophical and the devastating. Patrick On Aug 31, 2005, at 9:36 AM, Dye, Steve wrote: > Absolutely - the disaster in New Orleans is right out of Lost in The > Cosmos. Those poor folks are having an incredible and disastrous > "rotation"... > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. > Terrell > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:24 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The > aftermath or > reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the > fundamental need to continue searching. > > Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad > news; > how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. > Several > weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no > deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the > talking > heads was palpable. > > Karl > > -----Original Message----- > From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > > I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do > know, > > however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our > everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to > my > college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. > When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the > similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, > etc. > That > feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. > I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It > seemed to > be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to > class. -David > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > > >> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >> >> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >> prose, >> > > >> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >> > buffeting > >> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >> seems >> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >> >> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >> but he >> > > >> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >> excitement >> > > >> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of >> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >> through the next few hours. >> >> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in >> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >> >> Karl >> -----Original Message----- . >> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> anyway?" >> >> >> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >> is gone forever... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >> Chapman >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> anyway?" >> >> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >> related >> > > >> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >> >> It's just awful. >> >> Stuart >> >> Dave Duty wrote: >> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >> Orleans area residents? >> >> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >> >> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> >> >> >>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about >>>> >> this >> Percy guy, anyway?" << >> >> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the >> sheer delight of reading his books. >> >> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction >> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> >> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, >> I'd take the search." >> >> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >> for no >> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> > pilgrim > >> is a person on a search. >> >> Jim Forest >> >> * * * >> Jim & Nancy Forest >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> >> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> >> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> >> * * * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> _____ >> >> Start your >> >> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >> >> >> >> > ********************************************************************** > ** > ******** > **************** > >> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >> thereto, >> > > >> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by >> the >> > > >> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >> > > >> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >> >> > ********************************************************************** > ** > ******** > **************** > >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Aug 31 21:50:05 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:50:05 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212911@at01.sheamcnitt.com> References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212911@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a@webmail.iu.edu> Karl, I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the aftermath. But probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the battlefield (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one more "alive" in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at the traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD later. I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train is in the middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I guess it all depends on what the outcome is. While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose daughter died when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful experience in his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it awakened him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a pastor). In LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What if you ask God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, "Samantha, forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but there have been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest lines in Percy's fiction, in my opinion. Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane syndrome", etc.?) -David Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The aftermath or > reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the > fundamental need to continue searching. > > Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad news; > how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. Several > weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no > deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the talking > heads was palpable. > > Karl > > -----Original Message----- > From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > > I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, > > however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our > everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to > my > college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. > When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the > similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. > That > feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. > I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It > seemed to > be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to > class. -David > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > > > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > > > > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted > > to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, > > > and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, > buffeting > > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems > > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." > > > > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget > > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man > > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday > > afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear > > blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he > > > finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement > > > one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of > > the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and > > don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it > > through the next few hours. > > > > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. > > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of > > returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would > > write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's > > been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in > > the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. > > > > Karl > > -----Original Message----- . > > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > > > > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and > > loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) > > is gone forever... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman > > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > > > > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related > > > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. > > > > It's just awful. > > > > Stuart > > > > Dave Duty wrote: > > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > > Orleans area residents? > > > > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones > > are ok -- God Bless -- Dave > > > > JHForest at cs.com wrote: > > > > > > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about > > this > > Percy guy, anyway?" << > > > > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the > > sheer delight of reading his books. > > > > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction > > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > > > > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, > > I'd take the search." > > > > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no > > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a > pilgrim > > is a person on a search. > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > Jim & Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative > > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's > > e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative > > address: forestflier at gmail.com ) > > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > > > > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > > > > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > _____ > > > > Start your > > > > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > > > > ************************************************************************ > ******** > **************** > > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION > > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, > > > is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, > > and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the > > attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this > > message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the > > > sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the > > intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent > > responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are > > hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, > > downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > > immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any > > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. > > > ************************************************************************ > ******** > **************** > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From padraig at well.com Wed Aug 31 22:16:28 2005 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:16:28 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a@webmail.iu.edu> References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212911@at01.sheamcnitt.com> <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <3787FEE1-C929-46D1-872D-D9F341742155@well.com> Gentle Folks: While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more perceived self. Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster like Katrina. Is this making sense? P. On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > Karl, > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the > aftermath. But > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the > battlefield > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one > more "alive" > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at > the > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD > later. > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train > is in the > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I > guess it all > depends on what the outcome is. > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose > daughter died > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful > experience in > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it > awakened > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a > pastor). In > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What > if you ask > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, > "Samantha, > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but > there have > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest > lines in > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane > syndrome", etc.?) > -David > > > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > > >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >> aftermath or >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >> news; >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >> Several >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >> talking >> heads was palpable. >> >> Karl >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> anyway?" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >> know, >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >> convey to >> my >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >> crashes, etc. >> That >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> seemed to >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> class. -David >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >>> >>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >>> prose, >>> >> >> >>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >>> >> buffeting >> >>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >>> seems >>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >>> >>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >>> but he >>> >> >> >>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >>> excitement >>> >> >> >>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >>> out of >>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >>> through the next few hours. >>> >>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >>> Love in >>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >>> >>> Karl >>> -----Original Message----- . >>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> >>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >>> is gone forever... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >>> Chapman >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >>> related >>> >> >> >>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >>> >>> It's just awful. >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> Dave Duty wrote: >>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >>> Orleans area residents? >>> >>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >>> >>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >>>>> about >>>>> >>> this >>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >>> >>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >>> the >>> sheer delight of reading his books. >>> >>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >>> fiction >>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >>> >>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >>> truth, >>> I'd take the search." >>> >>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >>> for no >>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >>> >> pilgrim >> >>> is a person on a search. >>> >>> Jim Forest >>> >>> * * * >>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >>> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >>> >>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>> >>> * * * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Start your >>> >>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ********************************************************************* >> *** >> ******** >> **************** >> >>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >>> thereto, >>> >> >> >>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >>> by the >>> >> >> >>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >>> prohibited. >>> >> >> >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >>> >>> >> ********************************************************************* >> *** >> ******** >> **************** >> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Aug 31 22:51:05 2005 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (dabeck at iupui.edu) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:51:05 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" In-Reply-To: <3787FEE1-C929-46D1-872D-D9F341742155@well.com> References: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212911@at01.sheamcnitt.com> <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a@webmail.iu.edu> <3787FEE1-C929-46D1-872D-D9F341742155@well.com> Message-ID: <1125543065.43166c99052c7@webmail.iu.edu> > Is this making sense? > P. Probably more so than I am (I'm in an allergy medication fog). My point about the Browne lyrics was not that he was "fast asleep" but that he was dreaming of the "fight." Of course, the man on the train does awaken to a different self. My point is, we know that the rotation occurs in anticipation of the crisis, but I think it also occurs during the crisis. Afterwards, it is anybody's guess. Maybe I'm splitting philosophical hairs and need to focus on what's really going on. You wrote: > Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel > watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the > deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor > substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster > like Katrina. That's the bigger point. Perhaps it is a "high" for some, but it's hard to imagine very many people watching this disaster--knowing that it is happening to very poor areas that didn't have much to begin with--with the "interest" that Lance talks about regarding the plane crash. From what I hear, people are contributing in large amounts to help these people. And, while I fear bringing up the liberal/conservative topic, it is disasters like these that make people- -regardless of political persuasion--forget about "sides" and come together and help. Maybe in that way, we can all awaken to a more "perceived self." -David Quoting Patrick Lynch : > Gentle Folks: > While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the > idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have > been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of > rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious > life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who > he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep > afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more > perceived self. > > Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel > watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the > deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor > substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster > like Katrina. > > Is this making sense? > P. > On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > > > Karl, > > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the > > aftermath. But > > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the > > battlefield > > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one > > more "alive" > > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the > > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at > > the > > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD > > later. > > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train > > is in the > > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I > > guess it all > > depends on what the outcome is. > > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose > > daughter died > > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful > > experience in > > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it > > awakened > > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a > > pastor). In > > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What > > if you ask > > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, > > "Samantha, > > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but > > there have > > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest > > lines in > > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. > > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane > > syndrome", etc.?) > > -David > > > > > > > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > > > > > >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The > >> aftermath or > >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the > >> fundamental need to continue searching. > >> > >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad > >> news; > >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. > >> Several > >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no > >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the > >> talking > >> heads was palpable. > >> > >> Karl > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM > >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, > >> anyway?" > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do > >> know, > >> > >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our > >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to > >> convey to > >> my > >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. > >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the > >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on > >> crashes, etc. > >> That > >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. > >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It > >> seemed to > >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to > >> class. -David > >> > >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > >> > >> > >>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * > >>> > >>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted > >>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth > >>> prose, > >>> > >> > >> > >>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, > >>> > >> buffeting > >> > >>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search > >>> seems > >>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." > >>> > >>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget > >>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man > >>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday > >>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear > >>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; > >>> but he > >>> > >> > >> > >>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the > >>> excitement > >>> > >> > >> > >>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us > >>> out of > >>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and > >>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it > >>> through the next few hours. > >>> > >>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. > >>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of > >>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would > >>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's > >>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). > >>> Love in > >>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. > >>> > >>> Karl > >>> -----Original Message----- . > >>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM > >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, > >>> anyway?" > >>> > >>> > >>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and > >>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) > >>> is gone forever... > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart > >>> Chapman > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM > >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, > >>> anyway?" > >>> > >>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- > >>> related > >>> > >> > >> > >>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. > >>> > >>> It's just awful. > >>> > >>> Stuart > >>> > >>> Dave Duty wrote: > >>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New > >>> Orleans area residents? > >>> > >>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones > >>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave > >>> > >>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great > >>>>> about > >>>>> > >>> this > >>> Percy guy, anyway?" << > >>> > >>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is > >>> the > >>> sheer delight of reading his books. > >>> > >>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his > >>> fiction > >>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: > >>> > >>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the > >>> truth, > >>> I'd take the search." > >>> > >>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if > >>> for no > >>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood > >>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about > >>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a > >>> > >> pilgrim > >> > >>> is a person on a search. > >>> > >>> Jim Forest > >>> > >>> * * * > >>> Jim & Nancy Forest > >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > >>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative > >>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's > >>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative > >>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) > >>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org > >>> > >>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > >>> > >>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > >>> > >>> * * * > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _____ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >>> > >>> -- > >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >>> > >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >>> > >>> _____ > >>> > >>> Start your > >>> > >>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> ********************************************************************* > >> *** > >> ******** > >> **************** > >> > >>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION > >>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments > >>> thereto, > >>> > >> > >> > >>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, > >>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the > >>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this > >>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver > >>> by the > >>> > >> > >> > >>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the > >>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent > >>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are > >>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, > >>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly > >>> prohibited. > >>> > >> > >> > >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > >>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any > >>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. > >>> > >>> > >> ********************************************************************* > >> *** > >> ******** > >> **************** > >> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >>> > >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >> > >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >> -- > >> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >> > >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From kterrell at sheastokes.com Wed Aug 31 23:35:46 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:35:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC21EFA82@at01.sheamcnitt.com> I read a fascinating book several years ago by a war correspondent who describes the terrible but exhilirating psychology that grips those in the midst of war. I'm traveling at the moment and can't pull it off my shelf and give you the name. But he talks about the inevitable pull of the experience, suggesting that we are forever doomed to repeat it. We saw this country gripped in this as we headed into the Iraq war. We knew terrible things were going to happen, but separate from any analysis of the pros and cons of the decision, we hungered for it. A trivial comparison: at the age of 12, I had an accident and badly broke my arm. I remember that for days afterward I had a strong sense that, if called upon, I could easily commit an act of violence. But when I now think back on this event, I physically shudder. There is something about these awful occurences that brings up a dark side of our authenic selves. I'm not sure we can wholly control this. We can only hope, on balance, that the search will proceed toward a light. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Lynch To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Wed Aug 31 19:16:28 2005 Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" Gentle Folks: While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more perceived self. Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster like Katrina. Is this making sense? P. On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > Karl, > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the > aftermath. But > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the > battlefield > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one > more "alive" > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at > the > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD > later. > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train > is in the > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I > guess it all > depends on what the outcome is. > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose > daughter died > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful > experience in > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it > awakened > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a > pastor). In > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What > if you ask > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, > "Samantha, > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but > there have > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest > lines in > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane > syndrome", etc.?) > -David > > > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > > >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >> aftermath or >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >> news; >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >> Several >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >> talking >> heads was palpable. >> >> Karl >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> anyway?" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >> know, >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >> convey to >> my >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >> crashes, etc. >> That >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> seemed to >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> class. -David >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >>> >>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >>> prose, >>> >> >> >>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >>> >> buffeting >> >>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >>> seems >>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >>> >>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >>> but he >>> >> >> >>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >>> excitement >>> >> >> >>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >>> out of >>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >>> through the next few hours. >>> >>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >>> Love in >>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >>> >>> Karl >>> -----Original Message----- . >>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> >>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >>> is gone forever... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >>> Chapman >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >>> related >>> >> >> >>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >>> >>> It's just awful. >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> Dave Duty wrote: >>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >>> Orleans area residents? >>> >>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >>> >>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >>>>> about >>>>> >>> this >>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >>> >>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >>> the >>> sheer delight of reading his books. >>> >>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >>> fiction >>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >>> >>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >>> truth, >>> I'd take the search." >>> >>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >>> for no >>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >>> >> pilgrim >> >>> is a person on a search. >>> >>> Jim Forest >>> >>> * * * >>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >>> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >>> >>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>> >>> * * * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Start your >>> >>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ********************************************************************* >> *** >> ******** >> **************** >> >>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >>> thereto, >>> >> >> >>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >>> by the >>> >> >> >>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >>> prohibited. >>> >> >> >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >>> >>> >> ********************************************************************* >> *** >> ******** >> **************** >> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From fawil5 at open.org Wed Aug 31 23:38:13 2005 From: fawil5 at open.org (Franklin Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:38:13 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 References: Message-ID: <002c01c5aea6$98443c20$fdc102c7@Regsroom> Mary Pratt: Glad to know you're out and, I'm presuming, that your mother is with you also. At least I hope so. I've thought of her place with those large trees near the house and the river out back and wondered how she is. Doesn't your sister live next door? At least that's what I seem to recall from my brief visit. I may have told you--can't remember--but I was in Greenville late last March, and had a fine time in the WAP Library looking through the archives, and also visiting with Hugh McCormick at the Book Inn--an interesting fellow. Enjoyed a couple of wonderful meals at Doe's Eat Place and drove out to the Leroy Percy State Park, south of town. A question: is that the location of the Trail Lake Plantation? You all remain in our prayers--and especially the folks in Covington and south. Franklin Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (dabeck at iupui.edu) > 2. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (Patrick Lynch) > 3. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (dabeck at iupui.edu) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:50:05 -0500 > From: dabeck at iupui.edu > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , "Karl M. Terrell" > > Cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Karl, > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the aftermath. But > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the battlefield > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one more > "alive" > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at the > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD later. > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train is in > the > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I guess it > all > depends on what the outcome is. > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose daughter died > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful experience > in > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it > awakened > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a > pastor). In > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What if you > ask > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, > "Samantha, > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but there > have > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest lines in > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane syndrome", > etc.?) > -David > > > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The aftermath or >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad news; >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. Several >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the talking >> heads was palpable. >> >> Karl >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to >> my >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. >> That >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> seemed to >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> class. -David >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >> > >> > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >> > to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, >> >> > and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >> buffeting >> > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems >> > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >> > >> > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >> > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >> > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >> > afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >> > blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he >> >> > finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement >> >> > one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of >> > the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >> > don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >> > through the next few hours. >> > >> > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >> > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >> > returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >> > write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >> > been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in >> > the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >> > >> > Karl >> > -----Original Message----- . >> > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> > >> > >> > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >> > loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >> > is gone forever... >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> > >> > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related >> >> > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >> > >> > It's just awful. >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > Dave Duty wrote: >> > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >> > Orleans area residents? >> > >> > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >> > are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >> > >> > JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about >> > this >> > Percy guy, anyway?" << >> > >> > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the >> > sheer delight of reading his books. >> > >> > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction >> > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> > >> > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, >> > I'd take the search." >> > >> > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no >> > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> pilgrim >> > is a person on a search. >> > >> > Jim Forest >> > >> > * * * >> > Jim & Nancy Forest >> > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >> > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >> > e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >> > address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >> > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> > >> > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> > >> > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> > >> > * * * >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > Start your >> > >> > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >> > >> > >> > >> ************************************************************************ >> ******** >> **************** >> > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >> > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, >> >> > is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >> > and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >> > attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >> > message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the >> >> > sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >> > intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >> > responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >> > hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >> > downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >> >> > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >> > immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >> > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >> > >> ************************************************************************ >> ******** >> **************** >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:16:28 -0700 > From: Patrick Lynch > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <3787FEE1-C929-46D1-872D-D9F341742155 at well.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Gentle Folks: > While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the > idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have > been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of > rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious > life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who > he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep > afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more > perceived self. > > Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel > watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the > deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor > substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster > like Katrina. > > Is this making sense? > P. > On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > >> Karl, >> I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the >> aftermath. But >> probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the >> battlefield >> (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one >> more "alive" >> in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the >> radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at >> the >> traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD >> later. >> I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train >> is in the >> middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I >> guess it all >> depends on what the outcome is. >> While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose >> daughter died >> when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful >> experience in >> his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it >> awakened >> him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a >> pastor). In >> LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What >> if you ask >> God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, >> "Samantha, >> forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but >> there have >> been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest >> lines in >> Percy's fiction, in my opinion. >> Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane >> syndrome", etc.?) >> -David >> >> >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >>> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >>> aftermath or >>> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >>> fundamental need to continue searching. >>> >>> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >>> news; >>> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >>> Several >>> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >>> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >>> talking >>> heads was palpable. >>> >>> Karl >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >>> know, >>> >>> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >>> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >>> convey to >>> my >>> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >>> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >>> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >>> crashes, etc. >>> That >>> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >>> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >>> seemed to >>> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >>> class. -David >>> >>> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >>> >>> >>>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >>>> >>>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >>>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >>>> prose, >>>> >>> >>> >>>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >>>> >>> buffeting >>> >>>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >>>> seems >>>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >>>> >>>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >>>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >>>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >>>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >>>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >>>> but he >>>> >>> >>> >>>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >>>> excitement >>>> >>> >>> >>>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >>>> out of >>>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >>>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >>>> through the next few hours. >>>> >>>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >>>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >>>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >>>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >>>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >>>> Love in >>>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> -----Original Message----- . >>>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >>>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>>> anyway?" >>>> >>>> >>>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >>>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >>>> is gone forever... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >>>> Chapman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >>>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>>> anyway?" >>>> >>>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >>>> related >>>> >>> >>> >>>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >>>> >>>> It's just awful. >>>> >>>> Stuart >>>> >>>> Dave Duty wrote: >>>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >>>> Orleans area residents? >>>> >>>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >>>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >>>> >>>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >>>>>> about >>>>>> >>>> this >>>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >>>> >>>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >>>> the >>>> sheer delight of reading his books. >>>> >>>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >>>> fiction >>>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >>>> >>>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >>>> truth, >>>> I'd take the search." >>>> >>>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >>>> for no >>>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >>>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >>>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >>>> >>> pilgrim >>> >>>> is a person on a search. >>>> >>>> Jim Forest >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >>>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >>>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >>>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >>>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >>>> >>>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >>>> >>>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Start your >>>> >>>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> *** >>> ******** >>> **************** >>> >>>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >>>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >>>> thereto, >>>> >>> >>> >>>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >>>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >>>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >>>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >>>> by the >>>> >>> >>> >>>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >>>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >>>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >>>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >>>> prohibited. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >>>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >>>> >>>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> *** >>> ******** >>> **************** >>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// >> lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:51:05 -0500 > From: dabeck at iupui.edu > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , Patrick Lynch > Cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <1125543065.43166c99052c7 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Is this making sense? >> P. > > Probably more so than I am (I'm in an allergy medication fog). My point > about > the Browne lyrics was not that he was "fast asleep" but that he was > dreaming > of the "fight." Of course, the man on the train does awaken to a different > self. My point is, we know that the rotation occurs in anticipation of the > crisis, but I think it also occurs during the crisis. Afterwards, it is > anybody's guess. > Maybe I'm splitting philosophical hairs and need to focus on what's really > going on. You wrote: > >> Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel >> watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the >> deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor >> substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster >> like Katrina. > > That's the bigger point. Perhaps it is a "high" for some, but it's hard to > imagine very many people watching this disaster--knowing that it is > happening > to very poor areas that didn't have much to begin with--with the > "interest" > that Lance talks about regarding the plane crash. From what I hear, people > are > contributing in large amounts to help these people. And, while I fear > bringing > up the liberal/conservative topic, it is disasters like these that make > people- > -regardless of political persuasion--forget about "sides" and come > together > and help. Maybe in that way, we can all awaken to a more "perceived self." > -David > > > > Quoting Patrick Lynch : > >> Gentle Folks: >> While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the >> idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have >> been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of >> rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious >> life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who >> he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep >> afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more >> perceived self. >> >> Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel >> watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the >> deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor >> substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster >> like Katrina. >> >> Is this making sense? >> P. >> On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: >> >> > Karl, >> > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the >> > aftermath. But >> > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the >> > battlefield >> > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one >> > more "alive" >> > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the >> > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at >> > the >> > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD >> > later. >> > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train >> > is in the >> > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I >> > guess it all >> > depends on what the outcome is. >> > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose >> > daughter died >> > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful >> > experience in >> > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it >> > awakened >> > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a >> > pastor). In >> > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What >> > if you ask >> > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, >> > "Samantha, >> > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but >> > there have >> > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest >> > lines in >> > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. >> > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane >> > syndrome", etc.?) >> > -David >> > >> > >> > >> > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> > >> > >> >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >> >> aftermath or >> >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >> >> news; >> >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >> >> Several >> >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >> >> talking >> >> heads was palpable. >> >> >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >> anyway?" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >> >> know, >> >> >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >> >> convey to >> >> my >> >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >> >> crashes, etc. >> >> That >> >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> >> seemed to >> >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> >> class. -David >> >> >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >> >> >> >>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >> >>> >> >>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >> >>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >> >>> prose, >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >> >>> >> >> buffeting >> >> >> >>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >> >>> seems >> >>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >> >>> >> >>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >> >>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >> >>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >> >>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >> >>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >> >>> but he >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >> >>> excitement >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >> >>> out of >> >>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >> >>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >> >>> through the next few hours. >> >>> >> >>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >> >>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >> >>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >> >>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >> >>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >> >>> Love in >> >>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >> >>> >> >>> Karl >> >>> -----Original Message----- . >> >>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >> >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >>> anyway?" >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >> >>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >> >>> is gone forever... >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> >>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >> >>> Chapman >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >> >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >>> anyway?" >> >>> >> >>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >> >>> related >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >> >>> >> >>> It's just awful. >> >>> >> >>> Stuart >> >>> >> >>> Dave Duty wrote: >> >>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >> >>> Orleans area residents? >> >>> >> >>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >> >>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >> >>> >> >>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >> >>>>> about >> >>>>> >> >>> this >> >>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >> >>> >> >>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >> >>> the >> >>> sheer delight of reading his books. >> >>> >> >>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >> >>> fiction >> >>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> >>> >> >>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >> >>> truth, >> >>> I'd take the search." >> >>> >> >>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >> >>> for no >> >>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> >>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> >>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> >>> >> >> pilgrim >> >> >> >>> is a person on a search. >> >>> >> >>> Jim Forest >> >>> >> >>> * * * >> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest >> >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> >>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >> >>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >> >>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >> >>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >> >>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> >>> >> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> >>> >> >>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> >>> >> >>> * * * >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _____ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> _____ >> >>> >> >>> Start your >> >>> >> >>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> *** >> >> ******** >> >> **************** >> >> >> >>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >> >>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >> >>> thereto, >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >> >>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >> >>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >> >>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >> >>> by the >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >> >>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >> >>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >> >>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >> >>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >> >>> prohibited. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >> >>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >> >>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> *** >> >> ******** >> >> **************** >> >> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// >> > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 > *************************************** > > From fawil5 at open.org Wed Aug 31 23:40:52 2005 From: fawil5 at open.org (Franklin Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:40:52 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 References: Message-ID: <003f01c5aea6$f7395120$fdc102c7@Regsroom> To whom it may concern: Please disregard my previous e-mail! I sent a private reply to the Percy List by mistake. Mea culpa... Franklin Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (dabeck at iupui.edu) > 2. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (Patrick Lynch) > 3. Re: "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > (dabeck at iupui.edu) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:50:05 -0500 > From: dabeck at iupui.edu > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , "Karl M. Terrell" > > Cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <1125539405.43165e4ddc04a at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Karl, > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the aftermath. But > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the battlefield > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one more > "alive" > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at the > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD later. > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train is in > the > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I guess it > all > depends on what the outcome is. > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose daughter died > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful experience > in > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it > awakened > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a > pastor). In > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What if you > ask > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, > "Samantha, > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but there > have > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest lines in > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane syndrome", > etc.?) > -David > > > > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : > >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The aftermath or >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad news; >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. Several >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the talking >> heads was palpable. >> >> Karl >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do know, >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to convey to >> my >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on crashes, etc. >> That >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> seemed to >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> class. -David >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> > * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >> > >> > Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >> > to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth prose, >> >> > and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >> buffeting >> > about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search seems >> > to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >> > >> > I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >> > where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >> > sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >> > afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >> > blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; but he >> >> > finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the excitement >> >> > one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us out of >> > the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >> > don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >> > through the next few hours. >> > >> > But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >> > Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >> > returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >> > write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >> > been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). Love in >> > the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >> > >> > Karl >> > -----Original Message----- . >> > From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> > >> > >> > My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >> > loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >> > is gone forever... >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chapman >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" >> > >> > Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans-related >> >> > over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >> > >> > It's just awful. >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > Dave Duty wrote: >> > Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >> > Orleans area residents? >> > >> > Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >> > are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >> > >> > JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great about >> > this >> > Percy guy, anyway?" << >> > >> > What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is the >> > sheer delight of reading his books. >> > >> > A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his fiction >> > and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> > >> > "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the truth, >> > I'd take the search." >> > >> > It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if for no >> > other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> > not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> > being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> pilgrim >> > is a person on a search. >> > >> > Jim Forest >> > >> > * * * >> > Jim & Nancy Forest >> > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >> > address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >> > e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >> > address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >> > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> > >> > Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> > >> > photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> > >> > * * * >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > Start your >> > >> > day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >> > >> > >> > >> ************************************************************************ >> ******** >> **************** >> > PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >> > The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, >> >> > is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >> > and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >> > attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >> > message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the >> >> > sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >> > intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >> > responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >> > hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >> > downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >> >> > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >> > immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >> > attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >> > >> ************************************************************************ >> ******** >> **************** >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:16:28 -0700 > From: Patrick Lynch > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <3787FEE1-C929-46D1-872D-D9F341742155 at well.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Gentle Folks: > While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the > idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have > been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of > rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious > life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who > he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep > afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more > perceived self. > > Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel > watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the > deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor > substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster > like Katrina. > > Is this making sense? > P. > On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: > >> Karl, >> I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the >> aftermath. But >> probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the >> battlefield >> (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one >> more "alive" >> in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the >> radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at >> the >> traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD >> later. >> I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train >> is in the >> middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I >> guess it all >> depends on what the outcome is. >> While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose >> daughter died >> when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful >> experience in >> his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it >> awakened >> him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a >> pastor). In >> LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What >> if you ask >> God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, >> "Samantha, >> forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but >> there have >> been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest >> lines in >> Percy's fiction, in my opinion. >> Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane >> syndrome", etc.?) >> -David >> >> >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >>> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >>> aftermath or >>> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >>> fundamental need to continue searching. >>> >>> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >>> news; >>> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >>> Several >>> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >>> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >>> talking >>> heads was palpable. >>> >>> Karl >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>> anyway?" >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >>> know, >>> >>> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >>> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >>> convey to >>> my >>> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >>> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >>> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >>> crashes, etc. >>> That >>> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >>> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >>> seemed to >>> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >>> class. -David >>> >>> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >>> >>> >>>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >>>> >>>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >>>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >>>> prose, >>>> >>> >>> >>>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >>>> >>> buffeting >>> >>>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >>>> seems >>>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >>>> >>>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >>>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >>>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >>>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >>>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >>>> but he >>>> >>> >>> >>>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >>>> excitement >>>> >>> >>> >>>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >>>> out of >>>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >>>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >>>> through the next few hours. >>>> >>>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >>>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >>>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >>>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >>>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >>>> Love in >>>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> -----Original Message----- . >>>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >>>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>>> anyway?" >>>> >>>> >>>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >>>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >>>> is gone forever... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >>>> Chapman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >>>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >>>> anyway?" >>>> >>>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >>>> related >>>> >>> >>> >>>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >>>> >>>> It's just awful. >>>> >>>> Stuart >>>> >>>> Dave Duty wrote: >>>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >>>> Orleans area residents? >>>> >>>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >>>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >>>> >>>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >>>>>> about >>>>>> >>>> this >>>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >>>> >>>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >>>> the >>>> sheer delight of reading his books. >>>> >>>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >>>> fiction >>>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >>>> >>>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >>>> truth, >>>> I'd take the search." >>>> >>>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >>>> for no >>>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >>>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >>>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >>>> >>> pilgrim >>> >>>> is a person on a search. >>>> >>>> Jim Forest >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >>>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >>>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >>>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >>>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >>>> >>>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >>>> >>>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Start your >>>> >>>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> *** >>> ******** >>> **************** >>> >>>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >>>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >>>> thereto, >>>> >>> >>> >>>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >>>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >>>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >>>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >>>> by the >>>> >>> >>> >>>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >>>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >>>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >>>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >>>> prohibited. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >>>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >>>> >>>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> *** >>> ******** >>> **************** >>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> -- >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// >> lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:51:05 -0500 > From: dabeck at iupui.edu > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, anyway?" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , Patrick Lynch > Cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: <1125543065.43166c99052c7 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Is this making sense? >> P. > > Probably more so than I am (I'm in an allergy medication fog). My point > about > the Browne lyrics was not that he was "fast asleep" but that he was > dreaming > of the "fight." Of course, the man on the train does awaken to a different > self. My point is, we know that the rotation occurs in anticipation of the > crisis, but I think it also occurs during the crisis. Afterwards, it is > anybody's guess. > Maybe I'm splitting philosophical hairs and need to focus on what's really > going on. You wrote: > >> Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel >> watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the >> deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor >> substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster >> like Katrina. > > That's the bigger point. Perhaps it is a "high" for some, but it's hard to > imagine very many people watching this disaster--knowing that it is > happening > to very poor areas that didn't have much to begin with--with the > "interest" > that Lance talks about regarding the plane crash. From what I hear, people > are > contributing in large amounts to help these people. And, while I fear > bringing > up the liberal/conservative topic, it is disasters like these that make > people- > -regardless of political persuasion--forget about "sides" and come > together > and help. Maybe in that way, we can all awaken to a more "perceived self." > -David > > > > Quoting Patrick Lynch : > >> Gentle Folks: >> While this all seems to be a part of what Percy said, along with the >> idea that we cannot originally experience the Grand Canyon if we have >> been over-exposed to pictures of the tourist site, the concept of >> rotation indicates more than a momentary stay against one's insidious >> life. The man on the train is confronted with a re-visioning of who >> he is. The "man asleep at the traffic light" remains asleep >> afterwards. The man on the train awakens to a different, more >> perceived self. >> >> Nonetheless, Karl's comment reaffirms the news high that many feel >> watching CNN incessantly. But it is an inauthentic substitute for the >> deeper response of the man on the train. Perhaps even a poor >> substitute for feeling compassion for those affected by a disaster >> like Katrina. >> >> Is this making sense? >> P. >> On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:50 PM, dabeck at iupui.edu wrote: >> >> > Karl, >> > I think you're right. It is the anticipation more than the >> > aftermath. But >> > probably it is also in the moment, to some extent. Like on the >> > battlefield >> > (not that I've been there), the rush of the danger might make one >> > more "alive" >> > in the moment (as I heard Jackson Browne sing the other day on the >> > radio: "While the veterans, dream of the fight/While fast asleep at >> > the >> > traffic light") but that same person might have to deal with PTSD >> > later. >> > I don't have Message in a Bottle with me, but the man on the train >> > is in the >> > middle of a crisis when he notices his hand for the first time. I >> > guess it all >> > depends on what the outcome is. >> > While slightly different, I remember a friend of mine whose >> > daughter died >> > when she was six or seven, saying that it was the most painful >> > experience in >> > his life, but at the same time, the most beautiful. He said that it >> > awakened >> > him to what was important and to the presence of God (and he was a >> > pastor). In >> > LIR, regarding his daughter's death, More asks something like, What >> > if you ask >> > God for a miracle and it happens. What then? After that he says, >> > "Samantha, >> > forgive me. I'm sorry you suffered and died, my heart broke, but >> > there have >> > been times when I wasn't above enjoying it." One of the strangest >> > lines in >> > Percy's fiction, in my opinion. >> > Does it tie into what we've been discussing (i.e. "hurricane >> > syndrome", etc.?) >> > -David >> > >> > >> > >> > Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> > >> > >> >> I think it's the approach of bad news that excites us. The >> >> aftermath or >> >> reality, however, dumps us back into ordinariness. Hence, the >> >> fundamental need to continue searching. >> >> >> >> Percy pointed out the weird, guilty giddiness we receive from bad >> >> news; >> >> how we almost wish for it. The media, of course, is onto this. >> >> Several >> >> weeks ago a plane crashed and all 100+ passengers walked away with no >> >> deaths and few injuries. The sense of disappointment among the >> >> talking >> >> heads was palpable. >> >> >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: dabeck at iupui.edu [mailto:dabeck at iupui.edu] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:57 AM >> >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >> anyway?" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what Percy would say about this recent disaster. I do >> >> know, >> >> >> >> however, that conveying this idea--that tragedy can break us from our >> >> everydayness, even make life exciting again--is difficult to >> >> convey to >> >> my >> >> college students. Some get it; some think it's crazy. >> >> When I used to Lancelot along with Fight Club, I would point out the >> >> similarities (narrator/Tyler hoping that the plane he's on >> >> crashes, etc. >> >> That >> >> feeling pain is better than feeling nothing, etc. >> >> I remember on and after 9/11 we had this discussion on the list. It >> >> seemed to >> >> be an example of where Percy's hurricane theory didn't work. Off to >> >> class. -David >> >> >> >> Quoting "Karl M. Terrell" : >> >> >> >> >> >>> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * >> >>> >> >>> Tying the two current themes together ... I was also first attracted >> >>> to Percy by the sheer delight in reading his wonderfully smooth >> >>> prose, >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> and the way his likable characters roam outside the mainstream, >> >>> >> >> buffeting >> >> >> >>> about, but ultimately in search of some truer path. The search >> >>> seems >> >>> to begin with awareness of the discomfort of "everydayness." >> >>> >> >>> I was particularly struck, early on, with his comparison (I forget >> >>> where, but he returns to this in several books) of a successful man >> >>> sitting in his fine home in Short Hills, N.J. on a Wednesday >> >>> afternoon, birds chirping contentedly in the trees against a clear >> >>> blue sky -- he should be feeling fine; the world is his oyster; >> >>> but he >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> finds himself profoundly ill at ease -- contrasted with the >> >>> excitement >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> one feels when a hurricane is bearing down. Bad news takes us >> >>> out of >> >>> the ordinariness of a Wednesday afternoon, where you're stuck and >> >>> don't know what to do, and wonder how in the hell you'll make it >> >>> through the next few hours. >> >>> >> >>> But now the hurricane has passed, and has devastated a great city. >> >>> Amidst the grief, the ordinariness of a day-to-day struggle of >> >>> returning to the ordinary will take over. I wonder how Percy would >> >>> write of that experience -- perhaps he has, and I don't recall (it's >> >>> been many years since I really spent a lot of time with WP). >> >>> Love in >> >>> the Ruins? Maybe someone out there can point to a book or passage. >> >>> >> >>> Karl >> >>> -----Original Message----- . >> >>> From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org] >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:04 AM >> >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >>> anyway?" >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> My thoughts exactly...the New Orleans that many of have known and >> >>> loved for years (and that was so beautifully written about by Percy) >> >>> is gone forever... >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> >>> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Stuart >> >>> Chapman >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:42 AM >> >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "What's so great about this Percy guy, >> >>> anyway?" >> >>> >> >>> Been thinking about you, Percy, and everybody else New Orleans- >> >>> related >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> over these last few days, and I hope that you are ok. >> >>> >> >>> It's just awful. >> >>> >> >>> Stuart >> >>> >> >>> Dave Duty wrote: >> >>> Is no one else on the list concerned about Nikki and the other New >> >>> Orleans area residents? >> >>> >> >>> Nikki -- if your out there -- let us know if you and your loved ones >> >>> are ok -- God Bless -- Dave >> >>> >> >>> JHForest at cs.com wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>> What would you say to a young person who asks, "What so great >> >>>>> about >> >>>>> >> >>> this >> >>> Percy guy, anyway?" << >> >>> >> >>> What keeps Walker Percy in print fifteen years after his death is >> >>> the >> >>> sheer delight of reading his books. >> >>> >> >>> A key word with Percy was "search." It seems to me all of his >> >>> fiction >> >>> and non-fiction have to do with that topic. As he said: >> >>> >> >>> "If I had the choice of knowing the truth or searching for the >> >>> truth, >> >>> I'd take the search." >> >>> >> >>> It's a subject of the search has been much on my mind lately if >> >>> for no >> >>> other reason than I'm at work on a book about pilgrimage (understood >> >>> not only as making journeys to distant shrines but an attitude about >> >>> being that has little to do with travel). One way of defining a >> >>> >> >> pilgrim >> >> >> >>> is a person on a search. >> >>> >> >>> Jim Forest >> >>> >> >>> * * * >> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest >> >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> >>> Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative >> >>> address: jhforest at gmail.com ) Nancy's >> >>> e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative >> >>> address: forestflier at gmail.com ) >> >>> Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org >> >>> >> >>> Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ >> >>> >> >>> photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> >>> >> >>> * * * >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _____ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> _____ >> >>> >> >>> Start your >> >>> >> >>> day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> *** >> >> ******** >> >> **************** >> >> >> >>> PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION >> >>> The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments >> >>> thereto, >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, >> >>> and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the >> >>> attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this >> >>> message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver >> >>> by the >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the >> >>> intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent >> >>> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are >> >>> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, >> >>> downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly >> >>> prohibited. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >> >>> immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any >> >>> attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> *** >> >> ******** >> >> **************** >> >> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >>> >> >>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -- >> >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// >> > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 34 > *************************************** > >