From Nikkibar at aol.com Sat Oct 1 16:36:40 2005 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 16:36:40 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Group Read Suggestions?? Message-ID: >From here it is beginning to look as though a good bit of the overblowing of the violence may have just possibly come from ex-Chief Compass himself, although my jury is still out on that one. What seems a good deal more certain however from an eyewitness to the medical scene may be found at: _http://webpages.charter.net/wmchugh/ScottsDiary.pdf_ (http://webpages.charter.net/wmchugh/ScottsDiary.pdf) It will blow your mind and break your heart. It is at times like this that I really miss being able to talk the actually developing situation over with Walker -- as I did on the occasion of the Mark Dixon sniping incident at the Holiday Inn, another of his presciences come true. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Sat Oct 1 16:40:35 2005 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [percy-l] off topic but then back to LitR Message-ID: <1ad.40264fed.30704e43@aol.com> On the question of Nicholas Lemann's New Yorker article, my own take is one of immense disappointment that for once our Nicholas got it wrong. I think he was not only horribly unclear in what he said, but mean spirited and unnecessarily bitter in those few instances where (after the third reading) I found him simi-understandable. How say you Marcus? Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Sat Oct 1 16:53:38 2005 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 16:53:38 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Pauley and Mitchell's smug, self righteousness Message-ID: <1ff.b6827d4.30705152@aol.com> In a message dated 9/26/2005 6:07:43 PM Central Standard Time, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com writes: http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_08_31_05ng.html Open response to Mr Pauley: You have just proven my point. The article which you cite from a magazine unknown to me and written by one even more unknown, vaguely mentions the former Marc Morial administration as being corrupt; probably true (even though the jury has yet to be empaneled on that one) but then the writer sneaky-cleverly tries to tar Ray Nagin with the same brush. Not fair to Ray by a long shot. And true, he is overwhelmed but who wouldn't be. From where I stand Ray seems to be trying his level utmost to bring the best and brightest minds together from the greater New Orleans area to brainstorm the problem. And condemnations like that in the article are the direct opposite of helpful. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ttbrader at mindspring.com Sat Oct 1 19:53:53 2005 From: ttbrader at mindspring.com (Teresa) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 18:53:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Message-ID: <433F2191.90405@mindspring.com> I'm sorry I can't remember whose suggestion it was to read LitR as a group, but I'd like to thank you for it. This will be, I believe, my fourth reading (and the first in a long time) of LitR and I'm loving it once again. The writing and the theme are holding up tremendously (at least, the first section is, which is as far as I've gotten) even after the passing of thirty years. I'm glad I had this nudge -- reading it has been a comfort, strange though that may be to say. Teresa From tfa at brickengraver.com Sat Oct 1 22:50:26 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:50:26 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Group Read Suggestions?? Plea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051002025002.KQZH14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> Ok people, this Group Read thingy was kind of my idea, and as such I would like to suggest a few ground rules--actually just one. Make sure to put LITR in the subject line. Use other subject lines for hurricane, political, and religious stuff if not directly related to LITR. All other posts will go through but it makes it much easier to follow the thread with some kind of a consistant subject heading. Now of course we are not Nazis and I am sure no one will be excommunicated for breaking this rule, but why not just do it for simple politeness. Thanks in advance. Tommy Armstrong Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. Robert Heinlein _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 4:37 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Group Read Suggestions?? >From here it is beginning to look as though a good bit of the overblowing of the violence may have just possibly come from ex-Chief Compass himself, although my jury is still out on that one. What seems a good deal more certain however from an eyewitness to the medical scene may be found at: http://webpages.charter.net/wmchugh/ScottsDiary.pdf It will blow your mind and break your heart. It is at times like this that I really miss being able to talk the actually developing situation over with Walker -- as I did on the occasion of the Mark Dixon sniping incident at the Holiday Inn, another of his presciences come true. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Mon Oct 3 08:57:09 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:57:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD013C90E9@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Couldn't have said it better myself... -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Teresa Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:54 PM To: Percy list Subject: [percy-l] LitR I'm sorry I can't remember whose suggestion it was to read LitR as a group, but I'd like to thank you for it. This will be, I believe, my fourth reading (and the first in a long time) of LitR and I'm loving it once again. The writing and the theme are holding up tremendously (at least, the first section is, which is as far as I've gotten) even after the passing of thirty years. I'm glad I had this nudge -- reading it has been a comfort, strange though that may be to say. Teresa -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From sldye at bluegrass.org Mon Oct 3 11:57:46 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:57:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD013C91E3@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Excerpt from Newsweek October 3 issue..."The Battle to Rebuild"...."Conspiracy theories abound in the Lower Ninth. It is taken as a given that, during Hurricane Betsy in 1965, the city blew up a levee and intentionally flooded the ward in order to save the mostly white and tourist-friendly French Quarter. This is an urban legend, but it indicates the depth of resentment felt by people who historically have been left behind. They have some reason to be suspicious. Finis Shelnutt, who owns a number of businesses near the French Quarter (including a bar named after his wife, former Bill Clinton paramour Gennifer Flowers), does not hide his feelings about the Lower Ninth. Sitting on his bicycle, draped with Mardi Gras beads, he told Newsweek that he is already talking to Florida investors about building high-rises in the French Quarter that can withstand Category 5 hurricanes. And what about the Lower Ninth? "Give it to us, and we'll turn it into golf courses. I heard that in Gaelic, "Katrina" means "to purify", said Shelnutt." Its been a while since I have read Love in the Ruins, but if memory serves me well, is Mr. Shellnutt (a name right out of Percy!) REALLY Art Immelman??? If not, Percy could have made Shellnutt up! -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Teresa Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:54 PM To: Percy list Subject: [percy-l] LitR I'm sorry I can't remember whose suggestion it was to read LitR as a group, but I'd like to thank you for it. This will be, I believe, my fourth reading (and the first in a long time) of LitR and I'm loving it once again. The writing and the theme are holding up tremendously (at least, the first section is, which is as far as I've gotten) even after the passing of thirty years. I'm glad I had this nudge -- reading it has been a comfort, strange though that may be to say. Teresa -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Tue Oct 4 01:41:28 2005 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:41:28 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Pauley and Mitchell's smug, self righteousness Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D67441A047@olawexc8.naoxy.com> I'm not sure what the point is, though. That New Orleans is not corrupt or that I am smug. Or both. At the risk of sounding smug, I re-submit that New Orleans is the most catastrophically corrupt and incompetently managed city in America. Lehman is dead-on. And these charges are helpful, for sunlight is the truest enemy of corruption and incompetence. As Walker Percy said, it is better to identify the lesion. Inasmuch as it painful to hear and to read about New Orleans' "unimaginable" dysfunction, the more attention brought to the matter the less chance it will repeat itself in a rebuilt New Orleans. I don't think we would wish the same on any place or anybody. No, the truth is good. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:54 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Pauley and Mitchell's smug, self righteousness In a message dated 9/26/2005 6:07:43 PM Central Standard Time, Robert_Pauley at oxy.com writes: http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_08_31_05ng.html Open response to Mr Pauley: You have just proven my point. The article which you cite from a magazine unknown to me and written by one even more unknown, vaguely mentions the former Marc Morial administration as being corrupt; probably true (even though the jury has yet to be empaneled on that one) but then the writer sneaky-cleverly tries to tar Ray Nagin with the same brush. Not fair to Ray by a long shot. And true, he is overwhelmed but who wouldn't be. From where I stand Ray seems to be trying his level utmost to bring the best and brightest minds together from the greater New Orleans area to brainstorm the problem. And condemnations like that in the article are the direct opposite of helpful. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MorrisJD at aol.com Tue Oct 4 10:30:17 2005 From: MorrisJD at aol.com (MorrisJD at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:30:17 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Pauley and Mitchell's smug, self righteousness Message-ID: The point is that NOLA's corruption or not doesn't excuse the abysmal failure of the federal government to protect the people there. Nor does it explain or excuse the federal government's continuing failure to aid people in south Louisiana outside NOLA and elswhere along the gulf coast. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From armstron at ohiou.edu Wed Oct 5 17:01:23 2005 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:01:23 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Training In-Reply-To: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD013C91E3@batman.Bluegrass. Board> References: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD013C91E3@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005165904.037f8118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> It's been quite a while since I've even seen my copy of Love in the Ruins, but on the chance I can turn it up AND find the time to read it, is there a schedule or date to commence discussion and not to include anything Katrina under the LitR subject line? Thanks, Ken A. From tfa at brickengraver.com Wed Oct 5 17:18:43 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:18:43 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Training In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005165904.037f8118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: <20051005211842.CQDW5784.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> I kind of thought start October 1 with a chapter a week. Tommy Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. Robert Heinlein -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ken Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:01 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LitR Training It's been quite a while since I've even seen my copy of Love in the Ruins, but on the chance I can turn it up AND find the time to read it, is there a schedule or date to commence discussion and not to include anything Katrina under the LitR subject line? Thanks, Ken A. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From RGray at montreat.edu Thu Oct 6 09:45:01 2005 From: RGray at montreat.edu (Gray, Rich) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:45:01 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Message-ID: Percy wrote the essay "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World" while he was writing Love in the Ruins. A common theme to both works is the blessing of cataclysm, which jerks people out of their tranquilized routines. In their comfortable routines, Percy thought people -- Catholics as well as other believers and agnostics -- were callous toward God. Tom More opens the novel in a serious rut: rejected by his wife, dependent on alcohol, and largely unsuccessful in his psychiatric practice. His concern for the decay of America and his invention of the lapsometer mark his attempt to throw off his stupefying midlife tedium. Then the comedy kicks in. Tom with the lapsometer seems like Don Quixote with his lance -- they have a winsomeness, yet they are completely ineffective in changing the world. Rich Gray ________________________________________ From sldye at bluegrass.org Thu Oct 6 11:07:29 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:07:29 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LitR Training Message-ID: <60790682A484FF4080B3EA134C564CBD013C9A5D@batman.Bluegrass.Board> Hey, I find myself LIKING this list again! -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ken Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:01 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LitR Training It's been quite a while since I've even seen my copy of Love in the Ruins, but on the chance I can turn it up AND find the time to read it, is there a schedule or date to commence discussion and not to include anything Katrina under the LitR subject line? Thanks, Ken A. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Oct 6 12:20:56 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:20:56 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051006162051.VOLS14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> "But I will be all right as soon as I get home and take my drug, which is the best of the consciousness-expanding community-simulating self integrating drugs" When Rich mentioned that essay I of course had to go and pull it off my shelf and that is what I had underlined from it (among other things). I kind of think it sums up a great deal of the insight and humor that is present throughout Percy. He brings views of the world from a truly different vantage points. That is his strength both then and now--an extra-consumerist vantage point, an extra-science vantage point, an extra-political vantage point. I once took a course in college a long back named "Beththoven and Revolution" by an incredibly smart and gifted professor named Dr. David Green. In it we explored we explored all kinds of seemingly disparate things like the Renaissance, Chinese Scroll Painting, the structure of Bethoven's string quartets and symphonies, Lao Tsu, Confucius, Sartre, etc. And let me not forget Mahler--that prof had listened to a Mahler piece every day of his life for 10 straight years--something of an expert on him. The one overriding thing that tied them all together was essentially vantage point. When that sculptor, forget his name, discovered (or created) (or rediscovered) single point perspective, and created those famous cathedral doors it changed Western Civilization forever. Now it was possible for people to study the natural world, for they could do it from a single point of reference. Things can be measured and quantified and mapped. And thus began linearity. The novel was one of the consequences of that type of perspective as was calculus. Without that discovery by an artist at the beginning of the Renaissance (in fact who started the Renaissance), there would have never been science as we know it. The Chinese, however never discovered spp--and they had a view of the world much closer to how humans actually see the world--multi-point perspective. Scroll paintings do not exhibit spp. We Westerners now look at them (and all art prior to spp) as somehow inferior, or at least, not as "sophisticated". But the fact is that the human does not see like a camera--the ultimate tool and demonstrator of spp. Even as we walk to the bathroom and take a tinkle, our vantage point constantly changes, and not only our vantage point but our area of focus literally hundreds of times. Now what I am saying is not that science and technology is not useful, but this whole rational view of the world presupposes the validity of spp being the "correct" perspective. But it is definitely not hardwired into the human brain. In fact it was never even existent before those doors on that cathedral were created. It took only a hundred or so years to become hardwired into our culture--but not in our being. And there perhaps is the genesis of schism of science and humanity. For what is natural for a homo sapiens --constantly seeing the world from different vantage points and areas of focus--and what is natural for the culture--seeing the world from a single point of view--something to be measured, classified, and dissected, are really at odds with each other. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Gray, Rich Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:45 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Percy wrote the essay "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World" while he was writing Love in the Ruins. A common theme to both works is the blessing of cataclysm, which jerks people out of their tranquilized routines. In their comfortable routines, Percy thought people -- Catholics as well as other believers and agnostics -- were callous toward God. Tom More opens the novel in a serious rut: rejected by his wife, dependent on alcohol, and largely unsuccessful in his psychiatric practice. His concern for the decay of America and his invention of the lapsometer mark his attempt to throw off his stupefying midlife tedium. Then the comedy kicks in. Tom with the lapsometer seems like Don Quixote with his lance -- they have a winsomeness, yet they are completely ineffective in changing the world. Rich Gray ________________________________________ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Fri Oct 7 14:44:12 2005 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:44:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Message-ID: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212954@at01.sheamcnitt.com> * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Re: single-point and multi-point perspectives, do you see parallels to the experimentation with psychedlic drugs during the 60s as a breaking away from the former? I refer not to a glorification of illegal drug use, but to a brief (historical, I believe) period when young adults and a few others, using LSD, marijuana, etc. as tools in a positive and creative way, were attempting to break free of the restraints of what I think you refer to as 'single point perspective.' Of course, it was doomed to failure, as we live resolutely in an spp world, and because drugs are bad for your health, but .... some vestige I believe of this experimental non-spp thinking (if you will) lives on, and has been advanced as a force in our culture. Some aspects of this, as in the arts, and as applied to philosophies/practices on how to live your daily life, have been to the good, and some aspects not. Perhaps my own fleeting passage through this history explains part of my attraction to Percy. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Tommy Armstrong [mailto:tfa at brickengraver.com] Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:21 AM To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR "But I will be all right as soon as I get home and take my drug, which is the best of the consciousness-expanding community-simulating self integrating drugs" When Rich mentioned that essay I of course had to go and pull it off my shelf and that is what I had underlined from it (among other things). I kind of think it sums up a great deal of the insight and humor that is present throughout Percy. He brings views of the world from a truly different vantage points. That is his strength both then and now--an extra-consumerist vantage point, an extra-science vantage point, an extra-political vantage point. I once took a course in college a long back named "Beththoven and Revolution" by an incredibly smart and gifted professor named Dr. David Green. In it we explored we explored all kinds of seemingly disparate things like the Renaissance, Chinese Scroll Painting, the structure of Bethoven's string quartets and symphonies, Lao Tsu, Confucius, Sartre, etc. And let me not forget Mahler--that prof had listened to a Mahler piece every day of his life for 10 straight years--something of an expert on him. The one overriding thing that tied them all together was essentially vantage point. When that sculptor, forget his name, discovered (or created) (or rediscovered) single point perspective, and created those famous cathedral doors it changed Western Civilization forever. Now it was possible for people to study the natural world, for they could do it from a single point of reference. Things can be measured and quantified and mapped. And thus began linearity. The novel was one of the consequences of that type of perspective as was calculus. Without that discovery by an artist at the beginning of the Renaissance (in fact who started the Renaissance), there would have never been science as we know it. The Chinese, however never discovered spp--and they had a view of the world much closer to how humans actually see the world--multi-point perspective. Scroll paintings do not exhibit spp. We Westerners now look at them (and all art prior to spp) as somehow inferior, or at least, not as "sophisticated". But the fact is that the human does not see like a camera--the ultimate tool and demonstrator of spp. Even as we walk to the bathroom and take a tinkle, our vantage point constantly changes, and not only our vantage point but our area of focus literally hundreds of times. Now what I am saying is not that science and technology is not useful, but this whole rational view of the world presupposes the validity of spp being the "correct" perspective. But it is definitely not hardwired into the human brain. In fact it was never even existent before those doors on that cathedral were created. It took only a hundred or so years to become hardwired into our culture--but not in our being. And there perhaps is the genesis of schism of science and humanity. For what is natural for a homo sapiens --constantly seeing the world from different vantage points and areas of focus--and what is natural for the culture--seeing the world from a single point of view--something to be measured, classified, and dissected, are really at odds with each other. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Gray, Rich Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:45 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Percy wrote the essay "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World" while he was writing Love in the Ruins. A common theme to both works is the blessing of cataclysm, which jerks people out of their tranquilized routines. In their comfortable routines, Percy thought people -- Catholics as well as other believers and agnostics -- were callous toward God. Tom More opens the novel in a serious rut: rejected by his wife, dependent on alcohol, and largely unsuccessful in his psychiatric practice. His concern for the decay of America and his invention of the lapsometer mark his attempt to throw off his stupefying midlife tedium. Then the comedy kicks in. Tom with the lapsometer seems like Don Quixote with his lance -- they have a winsomeness, yet they are completely ineffective in changing the world. Rich Gray ________________________________________ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ************************************************************************************************ PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. ************************************************************************************************ From tfa at brickengraver.com Fri Oct 7 18:46:50 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:46:50 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR In-Reply-To: <7A5E4A01592B87438BF92B2CC0CA9DC2212954@at01.sheamcnitt.com> Message-ID: <20051007224642.ZQTR14345.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@compaqupstairs> I had not thought about the drug connection--but you are probably right. The confines of a spp world are in many ways the antithesis of the human experience or rather the way humans actually experience the world. Once it was discovered, it essentially became the defacto method of viewing the world, at least intellectually--and did so incredibly fast. Without it, there would be no science as we know it today, there would be no structured linear music, or the novel would never have come into being. For a novel essentially has a beginning, a middle, and an end--a plot--and is told from the vantage point of the narrator. I remember in high school plotting the plot of Madame Bovary on a chart--my English teacher thought it to be the penultimate novel because of its careful construction. How consistent it is, how it "holds together", the denouement, the rise the fall and the conclusion. How it inexorably moves to the conclusion. I am sure that English prof could clean up my thinking, and I of course would welcome him to chime in. The Stream of Consciousness thing was really a rejection of those confines. As was Jazz in my opinion--as it went in whatever direction that the musician felt he wanted it to go at the moment of creation. Improvisation is really a lot closer to the way I think humans actually live and more importantly think. For example as I sit and write this, I have jumped in my mind from high school to college to looking at a scroll painting today that was in a take out Chinese restaurant to thoughts about the drying beds at my sewer plant. Nothing linear about it--no real "rhyme or reason" to why my mind went to those disparate thoughts. And I am not saying that humans are not capable of "scientific" reasoning, which is essentially spp reasoning--I am just saying that it is not their natural state. We are, I think non-linear creatures living in a linear culture. I hesitate to say linear world, as that implies that the world is linear--which no matter what the scientific experts say, it is not. For me that is reality. And, yes now that I think of it, drugs are a way of escaping that linearity and "going to a place" that is more human friendly. Early Times does seem to work well, especially with Carol Sloane singing Jazz. Of course to others, good weed listening to Jimi Hendrix is the escape, or Opera or Mozart or whomever. French Impressionists such as Matisse abandoned it, i.e. spp as too confining and not really conveying how humans actually perceived things. http://www.lyons.co.uk/html/large/Redroom.htm Now don't get me wrong--I am no art historian or expert, but simply looking at the above picture, to the "normal" westerner, to the person on the street, it looks much like what a child might paint. It was a rejection of the use of spp. It is not trying to convey an "accurate (accurate in linear, Cartesian sense) representation of the room, but what the room is, from a non-linear human perspective, from the perspective of the artist. Try the experiment of just walking into a room with the "explorers hat on". Try and keep up with what each and every vantage point and area of focus that your eyes go to. One thing will stand out, you will focus on it and perhaps think about it, then you will move your eyes until they come to rest on something else. Its very much not a linear experience. If it was, you could simply stand at the door, and absorb all the room from that vantage point. But the eye can only focus on one thing at a time. It moves from thing to thing constantly refocusing. The camera does focus on everything at one time--a distinctly non-realistic way of depicting things from a human perspective. And notice those photographs that are really good, that really make an impact. They are invariably the ones that are focused on a single subject. A really good photo only has one subject, for if it has two--they are constantly competing with each other--and the work becomes un- unified. Just as the human being can only focus on one thing at a time, That multitasking stuff has from what I understand been "scientifically" debunked. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl M. Terrell Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:44 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR * * This communication is CONFIDENTIAL * * Re: single-point and multi-point perspectives, do you see parallels to the experimentation with psychedlic drugs during the 60s as a breaking away from the former? I refer not to a glorification of illegal drug use, but to a brief (historical, I believe) period when young adults and a few others, using LSD, marijuana, etc. as tools in a positive and creative way, were attempting to break free of the restraints of what I think you refer to as 'single point perspective.' Of course, it was doomed to failure, as we live resolutely in an spp world, and because drugs are bad for your health, but .... some vestige I believe of this experimental non-spp thinking (if you will) lives on, and has been advanced as a force in our culture. Some aspects of this, as in the arts, and as applied to philosophies/practices on how to live your daily life, have been to the good, and some aspects not. Perhaps my own fleeting passage through this history explains part of my attraction to Percy. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Tommy Armstrong [mailto:tfa at brickengraver.com] Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:21 AM To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR "But I will be all right as soon as I get home and take my drug, which is the best of the consciousness-expanding community-simulating self integrating drugs" When Rich mentioned that essay I of course had to go and pull it off my shelf and that is what I had underlined from it (among other things). I kind of think it sums up a great deal of the insight and humor that is present throughout Percy. He brings views of the world from a truly different vantage points. That is his strength both then and now--an extra-consumerist vantage point, an extra-science vantage point, an extra-political vantage point. I once took a course in college a long back named "Beththoven and Revolution" by an incredibly smart and gifted professor named Dr. David Green. In it we explored we explored all kinds of seemingly disparate things like the Renaissance, Chinese Scroll Painting, the structure of Bethoven's string quartets and symphonies, Lao Tsu, Confucius, Sartre, etc. And let me not forget Mahler--that prof had listened to a Mahler piece every day of his life for 10 straight years--something of an expert on him. The one overriding thing that tied them all together was essentially vantage point. When that sculptor, forget his name, discovered (or created) (or rediscovered) single point perspective, and created those famous cathedral doors it changed Western Civilization forever. Now it was possible for people to study the natural world, for they could do it from a single point of reference. Things can be measured and quantified and mapped. And thus began linearity. The novel was one of the consequences of that type of perspective as was calculus. Without that discovery by an artist at the beginning of the Renaissance (in fact who started the Renaissance), there would have never been science as we know it. The Chinese, however never discovered spp--and they had a view of the world much closer to how humans actually see the world--multi-point perspective. Scroll paintings do not exhibit spp. We Westerners now look at them (and all art prior to spp) as somehow inferior, or at least, not as "sophisticated". But the fact is that the human does not see like a camera--the ultimate tool and demonstrator of spp. Even as we walk to the bathroom and take a tinkle, our vantage point constantly changes, and not only our vantage point but our area of focus literally hundreds of times. Now what I am saying is not that science and technology is not useful, but this whole rational view of the world presupposes the validity of spp being the "correct" perspective. But it is definitely not hardwired into the human brain. In fact it was never even existent before those doors on that cathedral were created. It took only a hundred or so years to become hardwired into our culture--but not in our being. And there perhaps is the genesis of schism of science and humanity. For what is natural for a homo sapiens --constantly seeing the world from different vantage points and areas of focus--and what is natural for the culture--seeing the world from a single point of view--something to be measured, classified, and dissected, are really at odds with each other. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Gray, Rich Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:45 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Percy wrote the essay "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World" while he was writing Love in the Ruins. A common theme to both works is the blessing of cataclysm, which jerks people out of their tranquilized routines. In their comfortable routines, Percy thought people -- Catholics as well as other believers and agnostics -- were callous toward God. Tom More opens the novel in a serious rut: rejected by his wife, dependent on alcohol, and largely unsuccessful in his psychiatric practice. His concern for the decay of America and his invention of the lapsometer mark his attempt to throw off his stupefying midlife tedium. Then the comedy kicks in. Tom with the lapsometer seems like Don Quixote with his lance -- they have a winsomeness, yet they are completely ineffective in changing the world. Rich Gray ________________________________________ -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy **************************************************************************** ******************** PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. This message, and its attachments, may contain information that falls under the attorney-client and/or work product privileges. Receipt of this message by an unintended recipient does not constitute a waiver by the sender of any and all applicable privileges. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail and any attachments, or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipients, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, downloading, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately, and destroy all copies. **************************************************************************** ******************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From JHForest at cs.com Tue Oct 11 14:27:02 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:27:02 EDT Subject: [percy-l] "The Orthodox Avant-Garde" Message-ID: <1c0.32e7f458.307d5df6@cs.com> I just came upon this text, which connects Walker Percy, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Martin Luther King Jr., G.K. Chesterton and others in what the author sees as an "orthodox avant garde". Jim Forest * * * Christianity Today, Week of July 25, 2005 The following article is located at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/130/12.0.html The Orthodox Avant-Garde Armed with traditional faith, these Christians subverted the establishment, putting secular ideas under the microscope of the eternal. Interview by Rob Moll | posted 07/26/2005 09:00 a.m. >> It's not easy to place thinkers as diverse as Walker Percy, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Martin Luther King Jr., G.K. Chesterton, and Northrop Frye into the same category. But Robert Inchausti, English professor at California State Polytechnic, San Luis Obispo, says they were all avant-garde orthodox Christians. No matter their different political, denominational, or literary positions, they all sought to be faithful to Jesus while engaging the world. In Subversive Orthodoxy: Outlaws, Revolutionaries, and Other Christians in Disguise, Inchausi discusses Christian thinkers, writers, and activists who challenged secular worldviews on their own turf, yet remained thoroughly Christian. << Q: Who are the avant-garde Orthodox? These were orthodox Christian thinkers and artists who were not theologians and made important and somewhat revolutionary contributions to various secular disciplines. They're interesting people because they're both subversive of the existing modern order, but they are not subversive of the church or subversive of the faith. They have a unique status as people who model for us how it is possible for believing Christians to enter into dialogue with the secular culture in a way that revolutionizes and transforms the secular culture and doesn't just protest against it or isolate from it. If you look at some of the major Christian artists and thinkers and social critics over the last hundred years, you find a variety of political, artistic, and intellectual schools within which they operate. Yet, they still share Christ as their major inspiration. You have somebody like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who from an American political perspective would be very conservative. He single-handedly did away with Marxism as an attractive philosophy for Paris intellectuals. And at the same time you have somebody like Dorothy Day, whose entire witness to the poor in the United States was to defend small families and small farms and collectives and indigenous poor against a social Darwinism that she thought was running away with American culture during the Cold War years. Few people know these believers were Christians. E.F. Schumacher, the Small Is Beautiful fellow, is often recognized as the guy who wrote about Buddhist economics, because of a chapter in his book Small Is Beautiful. But he was a Christian, and he said he put in Buddhism because he didn't want it to seem like special pleading. He just wanted to make it clear that the economic systems had religious under pinning. In order to demonstrate that in a way that he could get a hearing, he used the example of Buddhism. But he himself was a Christian thinker. Q: Not only was their Christianity misunderstood, but often their message was misunderstood. You include Jack Kerouac, who dismissed his hippie followers who got into Buddhism, but Kerouac was a conservative and a Catholic. Kerouac was really only a Buddhist for three years of his life. He was a very traditional Catholic growing up, and then he toyed with Buddhism for about three years. He came back to his faith and wrote a lot of stuff about Jesus and refused to give up his love of Jesus for the Buddha. Later, when he was having a hard time kicking his alcoholism, he started getting attacked by the New York critics for a pretty accurate description of his work, in which they said, This is a form of Christian primitivism. Q: Kerouac captures a spiritual search in a way that many novelists don't. You make the point that the novel has the ability to probe the soul in a way that Enlightenment attempts to discover truth can't. That's why Solzhenitsyn was so wise to novelize his history of the gulag. When he transformed the sufferings of millions of people into stories we could feel, it became real. Pasternack, in Doctor Zhivago, made the spiritual sufferings of the lost intelligentsia of the revolution real in a way that we could feel. Kerouac does the same thing with a spiritual longing that was useful in the 50s and 60s to say there's more going on then just the Cold War. We should be telling our stories to one another about our inner lives. Q: Thomas Merton was another Catholic writing spiritual literature during the Cold War years. The Seven Storey Mountain was a great conversion story. It provided a criticism of materialism, modernism, the Bohemian art theme, and left-wing politics, all these things that tempted him, that he turned away from 20 years before anybody else in the country had discovered them. Then after he died, all his journals and letters came out, and it turns out that all those years that he was in the monastery, he was having these deep conversations with people from all different backgrounds and was thinking through his faith and bringing it into dialogue with all kinds of things, which made him a different writer. Now, we even read The Seven Storey Mountain differently. Q: It's ironic that while Merton had left the world for the monastery, through his letters, he was active politically. Many of these Christians have a different take on political action. If you want to argue politics in the modern world you immediately find yourself hamstrung by definitions imposed on you by politicians who have laid out the rhetorical terrain. So the best way to deal with it is to refuse to play the game by the rules. These Christians offer an alternative vision that addresses political problems from a humble and inclusive Christian perspective that doesn't argue about things so much as reveal things. Let me give you an example of this. At the end of my book, I say these people don't want to change the world. Changing the world is not their number one priority. Their number one priority is to love and serve the world in the light of Christian revelation. Now if that means that you have to stand up to an injustice, if that means you have to change the way the mass media is run, or change curriculums or something, that will mean that you will engage in dialogue with people, and you will witness, and you will listen. You don't come in with this top down agenda and take everybody's life apart so that you can put it back together again. Kentucky writer and farmer Wendell Berry's method is to ask how this reform is going to affect my community and enter into dialogue with the people for whom these political reforms are going to change. The guy I think who was really on to this is Dostoyevsky. I guess you could call him a sentimental naturalist in his first book, Poor Folk. And then he was sent to the camps and he had his eye opened to the true nature of human beings. He came back and said until we deal with the irrational in man and healing one's suspicions of another, you could have the greatest political ideology and people would subvert it out of sheer spite. Somehow, trust has to be regained between people before you can talk about politics. And that's why ideological posturing, even if you're right, is counterproductive. Q: What kind of impact have these thinkers had, or should have? In the 20th century, the contemplative side of Christianity was made much more accessible by Merton's Seven Storey Mountain. Solzhenitsyn also had a great world impact. Some of Martin Luther King Jr.'s views have been misunderstood or co-opted. We think of him more as a civil-rights icon than as an engaged prophetic Christian trying to figure out non violence. I think he had a much more troubled, interesting, complex message to America than what we have decided it was in our history books and in our one-paragraph summaries of him. I would say that his legacy probably has not been fully understood. I don't think the full impact of what Schumacher has written about economics has really hit yet, the defense of family business and local community economies. That's starting to have resurgence in the third world with these micro credit organizations. If you start taking Schumacher seriously, then economics is due for a quantum leap, and that hasn't happened yet. We need to rethink the way we do economics, to question the assumption that we're all self-maximizing individuals. I think Northrop Frye is another one who was understood too quickly, or misunderstood. Literary studies over the past 20 years has been struggling with a lot of competing materialisms. Frye had offered in the early 60s a radical mystic contemplative vision of the literary studies, which doomed him to obsolescence in 1963. But now that practices like lectio divina and those contemplative ways of reading are being rediscovered, you look back at Northrop Frye, and he's the guy who provides the most interesting ideas and paradigms. But I think such a recovery is going to have to be done by religious folk. Because if you try secularizing his categories, they just don't work. It's only through religious eyes that Frye's literary cosmology makes sense, in the same way that Lord of the Rings has a deeper meaning to those who see its Christian themes. In Frye's letters and journals and also his sermons, because he was a pastor, you get to see the full Christian dimension of his thinking. He discussed how to read prophetically, how to read contemplatively. These were issues that Frye addressed that the last 20- 25-five years of literary criticism just ignored. I think what's going to happen in about 10 years is they're going to rediscover the language in which Frye was writing and learn he was trying to teach us how to read in a way that deepened our inner lives, not just increased our intellectual sophistication. * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfrentz_2 at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 21:55:50 2005 From: mfrentz_2 at comcast.net (Mike Frentz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:55:50 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "The Orthodox Avant-Garde" In-Reply-To: <1c0.32e7f458.307d5df6@cs.com> References: <1c0.32e7f458.307d5df6@cs.com> Message-ID: <576EBCD9-F954-4478-8133-E1D254C72357@comcast.net> Interesting, but not at all surprising. After all, authentic Christianity (especially as embodied in the inept, corrupt, scandal- ridden, imperfect, humanly executed/divinely inspired Catholic Church) has despite its faults, been the most progressive force the world has ever known to anyone who is familiar with its history -- unfortunately a consistently small minority. It's pretty clear that those known contemporarily as "progressives" are interested in anything but progress -- 44,000,000 U.S. dead since Roe v. really isn't a rational measurement of progress at all is it? It's time to reclaim the language! Mike On Oct 11, 2005, at 2:27 PM, JHForest at cs.com wrote: > I just came upon this text, which connects Walker Percy, Aleksandr > Solzhenitsyn, Martin Luther King Jr., G.K. Chesterton and others in > what the author sees as an "orthodox avant garde". > > Jim Forest > > * * * > > Christianity Today, Week of July 25, 2005 > > The following article is located at: > http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/130/12.0.html > > The Orthodox Avant-Garde > > Armed with traditional faith, these Christians subverted the > establishment, > putting secular ideas under the microscope of the eternal. > > Interview by Rob Moll | posted 07/26/2005 09:00 a.m. > > >> It's not easy to place thinkers as diverse as Walker Percy, > Aleksandr > Solzhenitsyn, Martin Luther King Jr., G.K. Chesterton, and Northrop > Frye into the same category. But Robert Inchausti, English > professor at > California State Polytechnic, San Luis Obispo, says they were all > avant-garde orthodox Christians. No matter their different political, > denominational, or literary positions, they all sought to be > faithful to > Jesus while engaging the world. In Subversive Orthodoxy: Outlaws, > Revolutionaries, and Other Christians in Disguise, Inchausi discusses > Christian thinkers, writers, and activists who challenged secular > worldviews on their own turf, yet remained thoroughly Christian. << > > Q: Who are the avant-garde Orthodox? > > These were orthodox Christian thinkers and artists who were not > theologians > and made important and somewhat revolutionary contributions to various > secular disciplines. They're interesting people because they're both > subversive of the existing modern order, but they are not > subversive of the > church or subversive of the faith. > > They have a unique status as people who model for us how it is > possible for > believing Christians to enter into dialogue with the secular > culture in a > way that revolutionizes and transforms the secular culture and > doesn't just > protest against it or isolate from it. > > If you look at some of the major Christian artists and thinkers and > social > critics over the last hundred years, you find a variety of political, > artistic, and intellectual schools within which they operate. Yet, > they > still share Christ as their major inspiration. You have somebody like > Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who from an American political perspective > would be > very conservative. He single-handedly did away with Marxism as an > attractive > philosophy for Paris intellectuals. And at the same time you have > somebody > like Dorothy Day, whose entire witness to the poor in the United > States was > to defend small families and small farms and collectives and > indigenous poor > against a social Darwinism that she thought was running away with > American > culture during the Cold War years. > > Few people know these believers were Christians. E.F. Schumacher, > the Small > Is Beautiful fellow, is often recognized as the guy who wrote about > Buddhist > economics, because of a chapter in his book Small Is Beautiful. But > he was a > Christian, and he said he put in Buddhism because he didn't want it > to seem > like special pleading. He just wanted to make it clear that the > economic > systems had religious under pinning. In order to demonstrate that > in a way > that he could get a hearing, he used the example of Buddhism. But > he himself > was a Christian thinker. > > Q: Not only was their Christianity misunderstood, but often their > message was > misunderstood. You include Jack Kerouac, who dismissed his hippie > followers > who got into Buddhism, but Kerouac was a conservative and a Catholic. > > Kerouac was really only a Buddhist for three years of his life. He > was a > very traditional Catholic growing up, and then he toyed with > Buddhism for > about three years. He came back to his faith and wrote a lot of > stuff about > Jesus and refused to give up his love of Jesus for the Buddha. > Later, when > he was having a hard time kicking his alcoholism, he started getting > attacked by the New York critics for a pretty accurate description > of his > work, in which they said, This is a form of Christian primitivism. > > Q: Kerouac captures a spiritual search in a way that many novelists > don't. > You make the point that the novel has the ability to probe the soul > in a way > that Enlightenment attempts to discover truth can't. > > That's why Solzhenitsyn was so wise to novelize his history of the > gulag. > When he transformed the sufferings of millions of people into > stories we > could feel, it became real. Pasternack, in Doctor Zhivago, made the > spiritual sufferings of the lost intelligentsia of the revolution > real in a > way that we could feel. Kerouac does the same thing with a > spiritual longing > that was useful in the 50s and 60s to say there's more going on > then just > the Cold War. We should be telling our stories to one another about > our > inner lives. > > Q: Thomas Merton was another Catholic writing spiritual literature > during the > Cold War years. > > The Seven Storey Mountain was a great conversion story. It provided a > criticism of materialism, modernism, the Bohemian art theme, and > left-wing > politics, all these things that tempted him, that he turned away > from 20 > years before anybody else in the country had discovered them. > > Then after he died, all his journals and letters came out, and it > turns out > that all those years that he was in the monastery, he was having > these deep > conversations with people from all different backgrounds and was > thinking > through his faith and bringing it into dialogue with all kinds of > things, > which made him a different writer. Now, we even read The Seven Storey > Mountain differently. > > Q: It's ironic that while Merton had left the world for the > monastery, through > his letters, he was active politically. Many of these Christians > have a > different take on political action. > > If you want to argue politics in the modern world you immediately find > yourself hamstrung by definitions imposed on you by politicians who > have > laid out the rhetorical terrain. So the best way to deal with it is to > refuse to play the game by the rules. These Christians offer an > alternative > vision that addresses political problems from a humble and inclusive > Christian perspective that doesn't argue about things so much as > reveal > things. > > Let me give you an example of this. At the end of my book, I say these > people don't want to change the world. Changing the world is not their > number one priority. Their number one priority is to love and serve > the > world in the light of Christian revelation. Now if that means that > you have > to stand up to an injustice, if that means you have to change the > way the > mass media is run, or change curriculums or something, that will > mean that > you will engage in dialogue with people, and you will witness, and > you will > listen. You don't come in with this top down agenda and take > everybody's > life apart so that you can put it back together again. > > Kentucky writer and farmer Wendell Berry's method is to ask how this > reform is going to affect my community and enter into dialogue with > the > people for whom these political reforms are going to change. The > guy I think > who was really on to this is Dostoyevsky. I guess you could call him a > sentimental naturalist in his first book, Poor Folk. And then he > was sent to > the camps and he had his eye opened to the true nature of human > beings. He > came back and said until we deal with the irrational in man and > healing > one's suspicions of another, you could have the greatest political > ideology > and people would subvert it out of sheer spite. Somehow, trust has > to be > regained between people before you can talk about politics. And > that's why > ideological posturing, even if you're right, is counterproductive. > > Q: What kind of impact have these thinkers had, or should have? > > In the 20th century, the contemplative side of Christianity was > made much > more accessible by Merton's Seven Storey Mountain. Solzhenitsyn > also had a > great world impact. > > Some of Martin Luther King Jr.'s views have been misunderstood or > co-opted. > We think of him more as a civil-rights icon than as an engaged > prophetic > Christian trying to figure out non violence. I think he had a much > more > troubled, interesting, complex message to America than what we have > decided > it was in our history books and in our one-paragraph summaries of > him. I > would say that his legacy probably has not been fully understood. > > I don't think the full impact of what Schumacher has written about > economics > has really hit yet, the defense of family business and local community > economies. That's starting to have resurgence in the third world > with these > micro credit organizations. If you start taking Schumacher > seriously, then > economics is due for a quantum leap, and that hasn't happened yet. > We need > to rethink the way we do economics, to question the assumption that > we're > all self-maximizing individuals. > > I think Northrop Frye is another one who was understood too > quickly, or > misunderstood. Literary studies over the past 20 years has been > struggling > with a lot of competing materialisms. Frye had offered in the early > 60s a > radical mystic contemplative vision of the literary studies, which > doomed > him to obsolescence in 1963. But now that practices like lectio > divina and > those contemplative ways of reading are being rediscovered, you > look back at > Northrop Frye, and he's the guy who provides the most interesting > ideas and > paradigms. But I think such a recovery is going to have to be done by > religious folk. Because if you try secularizing his categories, > they just > don't work. It's only through religious eyes that Frye's literary > cosmology > makes sense, in the same way that Lord of the Rings has a deeper > meaning to > those who see its Christian themes. > > In Frye's letters and journals and also his sermons, because he was a > pastor, you get to see the full Christian dimension of his > thinking. He > discussed how to read prophetically, how to read contemplatively. > These were > issues that Frye addressed that the last 20- 25-five years of literary > criticism just ignored. I think what's going to happen in about 10 > years is > they're going to rediscover the language in which Frye was writing > and learn > he was trying to teach us how to read in a way that deepened our inner > lives, not just increased our intellectual sophistication. > > * * * > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JHForest at cs.com Thu Oct 13 05:18:59 2005 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:18:59 EDT Subject: [percy-l] re LITR Message-ID: <196.48eb61c7.307f8083@cs.com> from Mike's posting: >> After all, authentic Christianity (especially as embodied in the inept, corrupt, scandal-ridden, imperfect, humanly executed/divinely inspired Catholic Church) has despite its faults, been the most progressive force the world has ever known to anyone who is familiar with its history -- unfortunately a consistently small minority. << This strikes me as one of the main points Percy is making in Love in the Ruins. We discover a not-quite-now future in which a battered remnant of the Catholic Church survives after a schism that produces on the one hand the American Catholic Church (with its Property Rights Sunday) and the Dutch Catholic Church (in which political relevance is the main item). Then there's the rag-tag Roman Catholic Church, poor as a church mouse, bell-less, celebrating Mass in abandoned garages. Jim * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: http://www.incommunion.org Jim & Nancy Forest web site: http://incommunion.org/forest-flier/ photo web site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MorrisJD at aol.com Mon Oct 24 14:24:59 2005 From: MorrisJD at aol.com (MorrisJD at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:24:59 EDT Subject: [percy-l] LITR Message-ID: <1e5.479dacc5.308e80fb@aol.com> Is there any ongoing discussion? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Mon Oct 24 14:28:23 2005 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:28:23 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Message-ID: <74C25147FD45F644AAB363F7A432E5F527895C@KingKong.Bluegrass.Board> I am asking the same question. It was my understanding we would be starting a discussion of LITR in October with the first chapter. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of MorrisJD at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 2:25 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] LITR Is there any ongoing discussion? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Mon Oct 24 21:47:57 2005 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:47:57 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR In-Reply-To: <1e5.479dacc5.308e80fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <002001c5d906$200e0cb0$6501a8c0@compaqupstairs> Not much, so start it up and maybe some will follow. Tommy Armstrong "Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." Robert Heinlein _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of MorrisJD at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 2:25 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] LITR Is there any ongoing discussion? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: