[percy-l] LITR

RHONDA MCDONNELL rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com
Mon Apr 10 21:54:45 EDT 2006


David,

It makes perfect sense to me. In fact, that's the place where Percy differed 
from Kierkegaard. Whereas Kierkegaard saw that transition to the religious 
as a solitary movement, made without temporal aid, Percy makes "the other" a 
necessary component of salvation--its like that vision of the maculate 
Christ is LITR (which, long ago, was the starting point of this 
conversation)

--Rhonda
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats


>From: "Beck,  David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
>Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" 
><percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
>To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
>Date: Sun,  9 Apr 2006 20:32:21 -0400
>
>Rich,
>You wrote:
> > Jonathan's term "the Percyan scheme of things" is what interests me.
> > I think Percy has a priestly character or priestly function in every
> > novel.  For example, Binx goes to Mass with his step-family -- an
> > event at which a priest oversees the giving of blessing .  You can
> > use a priest to show the presence of grace, whereas without a priest,
> > you must use symbolic settings, characters praying, characters
> > talking about their faith, and scripture quoted or alluded to.
> >
>Sounds like a great M.A. thesis or dissertation. It seems the
>priest/grace works in various ways. In Lancelot, I would argue (and did
>many years ago) that Fr. John's return to his faith came through his
>interaction with the other (Lance). In other words, grace is a two-way
>street. It doesn't have to come via clergy. What's interesting about
>Lancelot is that the priest is the main character, in the sense that he
>is the one who changes. With Lance, we are left wondering. But Fr. John
>has definitely returned to his Catholic faith.
>What makes Percy a great writer is that, much like what Bakhtin said of
>Dostoevsky, he lets the characters evolve through their ideas and
>interactions. He doesn't have a set agenda (i.e. dogma) to which he
>shapes his characters. Much like Dostoevsky, he seems to take
>characters with particular ideas, winds them up, and lets them go. In a
>"dogmatic" novel, Lance would've experienced some dramatic change. But
>he didn't.
>In the same way, Binx's "conversion" is subtle and easily missed by
>someone not looking for the kind of grace that shoots through certain
>novels/stories (much in the way that grace flashes like lightning in
>Flannery O'Connor's stories--easily missed by those who read only on
>the surface).
>In LITR, More's "conversion" is also subtle. Again, the priest seems to
>offer insights that help move More along the way, but, even in the end,
>More still thinks that his lapsometer could "save the world."
>So, it seems to me, that the priesthood plays an important part in
>Percy, but perhaps not as important as "the other", in general. Percy
>seems to use the other as a way to salvation/conversion, and the other
>doesn't have to be clergy.
>Does that make sense?
>-David
>
>Quoting "Gray, Rich" <RGray at montreat.edu>:
>
> > Rhonda and Jonathan,
> >
> > I have been away for several days while you have been working on the
> > question of priests in Percy, especially Fr. Weatherby.  A useful
> > conversation.
> >
> > As a protestant reader, I rely on Catholics or protestants with more
> > insight than I, to figure out how priests work in Percy's novels.
> >
> > I have assumed that Weatherby is Catholic by being a "Father."  Him
> > substituting for Jack could be due to Jack's ecumenism coupled with
> > Jack deferring to the institution's residents.
> >
> > Weatherby appreciates the Christian gospel that has been believed and
> > practiced for centuries.  Jack Curl seems not to have this
> > ancient-based theology.  His beliefs are sociological.
> >
> > Jonathan's term "the Percyan scheme of things" is what interests me.
> > I think Percy has a priestly character or priestly function in every
> > novel.  For example, Binx goes to Mass with his step-family -- an
> > event at which a priest oversees the giving of blessing .  You can
> > use a priest to show the presence of grace, whereas without a priest,
> > you must use symbolic settings, characters praying, characters
> > talking about their faith, and scripture quoted or alluded to.
> >
> > How does this sound?
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > 	-----Original Message-----
> > 	From: Jonathan Potter [mailto:jdp at scn.org]
> > 	Sent: Sun 4/9/2006 7:24 PM
> > 	To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > 	Cc:
> > 	Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> >
> >
> > 	You're absolutely right.  I guess it just seemed like Fr. Weatherbee
> > ought to be RC in the Percyan scheme of things.
> >
> > 	I couldn't find a discussion of their being episcopalians in the two
> > collections of interviews, but I did find one reference, where the
> > interviewer, Peggy Castex, remarks that sometimes it's hard to tell
> > whether Percy's protagonist "is on the right track or the wrong
> > track, whether he is deluded or has got part of the message which may
> > lead him to the whole truth."
> >
> > 	To which Percy replies: "You ought to know as a displaced American,
> > latterday French lady that a writer cannot get away with theological
> > revelations.... Of course the key is at the end of the novel.  It
> > involves Will's relationship with Allie and the the nutty old priest
> > [Weatherbee] who is out of his mind, but may be saner than the
> > younger priest [Curl]." (More Conversations, p. 48)
> >
> > 	I guess you could expand the original question about priests to
> > consider Catholics and/or other believers that appear in Percy's
> > novels.  Val would be one to consider for sure.  And I would add
> > Lonnie from The Moviegoer, along with Fr. Smith and Percival.  I'm
> > not sure I'd lump Fr. Boomer in LG in with the Fr. Curl type; it
> > seems to me he does a pretty serviceable job with Jamie's baptism --
> > but I can't remember whether he appears earlier.
> >
> > 	--Jonathan
> >
> >
> > 	On 4/9/06, RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > 		You're right, Episcopalian is the American term.  For what it's worth,
> > 		chapter 12 begins, "Father Weatherbee sat behind Jack Curl's mahogany 
>desk
> > 		with its collection of Russian ikons and bleeding Mexican crucifixes." 
>Both
> > 		Weatherbee and Curl are Episcopalian. What I can't remember is why 
>Percy
> > 		made them Episcopalian. He discusses it in an interview, but I don't 
>have
> > 		the time to dig it up. While I'm here in chapter 12, Fr. Weatherbee's 
>rant:
> >
> > 		How can we be the best earest most generous people on earth, and at
> > the same
> > 		time so unhappy? How harsh everyone is here! How restless! How 
>impatient!
> > 		How worried! How sarcastic! How unhappy! How hateful! How 
>pleasure-loving!
> > 		How lascivious! Above all, how selfish! Why is it that we have more
> > than any
> > 		other people, are more generous with what we have, and yet are so 
>selfish
> > 		and unhappy? Why do we think of hothing but our own pleasure? I cannot
> > 		believe my eyes at what I see on television. It makes me blush with 
>shame.
> > 		Did you know that pleasure-seeking leads to cruelty? That is why more 
>and
> > 		more people beat their children. Children interfere with pleasure. Do 
>you
> > 		hate children? Why can't we be grateful for our great blessings and 
>thank
> > 		God? . . . Why is it that Americans who are the best dearest most 
>generous
> > 		people on earth are so unhappy?"
> >
> > 		He's definitely in the same vein as Father Smith. And Boomer (wasn't 
>that
> > 		his name?) is Last Gentleman is of the Jack Curl type. The question
> > 		beginning of this line of thought, regarding Percy's priests, is a
> > good one.
> > 		It looks like he's working from two types--my question is, can Val
> > from Last
> > 		Gentleman be grouped with Frs. Weatherbee and Smith?
> > 		--Rhonda
> > 		The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> > 		Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats
> >
> >
> > 		>From: "Jonathan Potter" <jdp at scn.org>
> > 		>Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 		>< percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> >
> > 		>To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 		><percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > 		>Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > 		>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:02:24 -0700
> > 		>
> > 		>I thought Fr. Weatherbee (the priest Will questions at the end, 
>grabbing
> > 		>his
> > 		>arm) was Roman Catholic.  It's been awhile since I've read it, but 
>I'm
> > 		>pretty sure it was just the priest earlier in the book that was
> > 		>Anglican/Episcopalian.
> > 		>
> > 		>Jonathan Potter
> > 		>Spokane WA
> > 		>
> > 		>
> > 		>On 4/8/06, RHONDA MCDONNELL < rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com
> > <mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com> > wrote:
> > 		> >
> > 		> > wasn't the first one you mention the guy that wore the jumpsuits 
>and
> > 		>acts
> > 		> > more like a building super than a priest? Jack Curl maybe? The 
>second
> > 		>was
> > 		> > Fr. Weatherbee, whose rant regarding the behavior of Americans is
> > 		> > genius--wasn't the quote something about his silly (or simple), 
>holy
> > 		>face?
> > 		> > Weatherbee is definitely linked to Fr. Smith. He seems to be daft 
>but
> > 		>he's
> > 		> > really the one that's onto something that no one else is paying
> > 		>attention
> > 		> > to. He knows the truth of things. That's why Will asks him the
> > important
> > 		> > questions. Worth noting is that the priests in 2nd Coming are 
>Anglican
> > 		>(as
> > 		> > is the priest Lance is named for in Lancelot).
> > 		> >
> > 		> > --Rhonda
> > 		> > The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> > 		> > Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats
> > 		> >
> > 		> >
> > 		> > >From: <Robert_Pauley at oxy.com>
> > 		> > >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 		> > >< percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > 		> > >To: <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > 		> > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > 		> > >Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:23:07 -0700
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >A couple of priests played pivotal roles in The Second Coming.
> >  I don't
> > 		> > >recall his name, but the parish priest always trying to encourage 
>Will
> > 		> > >Barrett to join his church's men's group outings and otherwise 
>come
> > 		> > >"into the fold" was one, and represented the kind the extreme
> > 		> > >earnestness which Percy, or at least Barrett, found 
>simultaneously
> > 		> > >cloying and yet not unimportant to a community.  The second was 
>an
> > 		> > >older, former renegade missionary who jolts Will into his final,
> > 		> > >redemptive awareness that "a gift may be a sign of a giver."  I 
>found
> > 		> > >this Percy novel to be his most accomplished and accessible: a 
>solidly
> > 		> > >grounded meditation on suburban malaise and self-delusion, an
> > effective
> > 		> > >and prescient social satire (Will's daughter's "new-age" 
>enthusiasms
> > 		>are
> > 		> > >hilarious), and a touching love story.  Not easy to pull off.  It
> > 		> > >tracked a character straight through from the impulse to suicide 
>to a
> > 		> > >saving awareness without ever resorting to the kind of dopey
> > flourishes
> > 		> > >of so many other social satires of the time - and afterward.
> > 		>Basically,
> > 		> > >Will Barrett loses his mind without ever losing his head.  I also
> > 		> > >appreciated the fact that it followed up on Will Barrett after 
>leaving
> > 		> > >him off in a Santa Fe wasteland so many years before.
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >Peace.
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >________________________________
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > 		> > >[mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dye, 
>Steve
> > 		> > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:35 AM
> > 		> > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > 		> > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >You are asking a very loaded question - it will be interesting to 
>see
> > 		> > >the responses you get!
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >Steven L. Dye, MA
> > 		> > >Director
> > 		> > >Bluegrass MH-MR Board, Inc.
> > 		> > >1500 Leestown Road, Suite 338
> > 		> > >Lexington, KY 40511
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >-----Original Message-----
> > 		> > >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > 		> > >[mailto: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > <mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> ] On Behalf Of Gray, Rich
> > 		> > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:31 AM
> > 		> > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > 		> > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >________________________________
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org ]
> > 		> > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:43 AM
> > 		> > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >Have any of you considered the role of priests in Percy's novels? 
>  Is
> > 		> > >there any common thread?
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >In The Moviegoer is there a priest?  The role grows into a main
> > 		> > >character in The Thanatos Syndrome, Father Reynaldo Smith.  There 
>must
> > 		> > >be a purpose for these priests.
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >As a Protestant Christian, I would like to know if Catholic Percy
> > 		> > >readers see any of these priests as realistic.
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >Rich Gray
> > 		> >
> > 		> >
> > 		> > >--
> > 		> > >An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > 		> > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > 		> > >
> > 		> > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > 		> >
> > 		> > _________________________________________________________________
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> > 		> >
> > 		> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > 		> >
> >
> >
> > 		>--
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> > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/>
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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