From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sun Dec 10 19:09:53 2006 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:09:53 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Babel In-Reply-To: <20061126235908.cc25i79iosw88wco@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wriddick at usa.net Sun Dec 10 20:20:13 2006 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:20:13 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Babel In-Reply-To: References: <20061126235908.cc25i79iosw88wco@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Dec 20 18:11:35 2006 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:11:35 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9C02@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Greetings to all: Can anybody recall the book and maybe even the passage in which Percy's protagonist launches into a riff about "believers and non-believers" and how he can't understand either. Many thanks. R. From daveduty at austin.rr.com Wed Dec 20 18:16:17 2006 From: daveduty at austin.rr.com (Dave Duty) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:16:17 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9C02@olawexc8.naoxy.com> References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9C02@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <4589C441.6050701@austin.rr.com> There is bit of this theme in The Moviegoer. Dave Duty Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: >Greetings to all: Can anybody recall the book and maybe even the passage >in which Percy's protagonist launches into a riff about "believers and >non-believers" and how he can't understand either. >Many thanks. R. > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Dec 20 18:24:39 2006 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:24:39 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9C73@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Thanks Dave. Just read Moviegoer, not there. Although you're right -- there is a bit of this theme in all his work. I think it's Lancelot or one of the Barrett novels. It's been a long time and I don't have copies (yes, shameful). ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dave Duty Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:16 PM To: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... There is bit of this theme in The Moviegoer. Dave Duty Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: Greetings to all: Can anybody recall the book and maybe even the passage in which Percy's protagonist launches into a riff about "believers and non-believers" and how he can't understand either. Many thanks. R. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RobtSchaefer at aol.com Wed Dec 20 18:32:45 2006 From: RobtSchaefer at aol.com (RobtSchaefer at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:32:45 EST Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of their meaning. The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) R. Schaefer Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Dec 20 18:55:08 2006 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9D87@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. Excerpts: There are only two classes of people, the believers and the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more feckless. ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are even worse. ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He is as insane as a French intellectual. ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RobtSchaefer at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of their meaning. The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) R. Schaefer Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hpmills3 at austin.rr.com Wed Dec 20 19:05:32 2006 From: hpmills3 at austin.rr.com (Henry Mills) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:05:32 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded Percy question Message-ID: Dear Percy-L, This is addressed to the Percy scholars (I am not a scholar, just someone who enjoys his writing). Can anyone point to fictional passages or essays by Percy addressing the unique human characteristic of awareness of death, of one's own mortality, in contrast to all other creatures who (presumably) do not possess such awareness? Karl M. Terrell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Dec 20 19:08:50 2006 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:08:50 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9D87@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Wed Dec 20 19:08:34 2006 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:08:34 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded Percy question Message-ID: THE PERCY LIST LIVES!!! Great reading all comments. i always think of Tom More when I see the news stories about the lapsed evangelists out in Colorado or elsewhere....still less 'feckless" though than the "non-believers" in Percy's eyes.... ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Henry Mills Sent: Wed 12/20/2006 7:05 PM To: percy-l Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded Percy question Dear Percy-L, This is addressed to the Percy scholars (I am not a scholar, just someone who enjoys his writing). Can anyone point to fictional passages or essays by Percy addressing the unique human characteristic of awareness of death, of one's own mortality, in contrast to all other creatures who (presumably) do not possess such awareness? Karl M. Terrell -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3643 bytes Desc: not available URL: From daveduty at austin.rr.com Wed Dec 20 19:15:37 2006 From: daveduty at austin.rr.com (Dave Duty) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:15:37 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9D87@olawexc8.naoxy.com> References: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9D87@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: <4589D229.1060902@austin.rr.com> TM page 145: My mother's family think I have lost my faith and they pray for me to recover it. I don't know what they're talking about. Other people, so I have read, are pious as children and later become skeptical (or, as they on This I Believe: "in time I outgrew the creed and dogmas of my organized religion.") Not I. My unbelief was invincible from the beginning. I could never make head or tail of God. The proofs of God's existence may have been true for all I know, but it didn't make the slightest difference. If God himself had appeared to me, it would have changed nothing. In fact, I have only to hear the word God and a curtain comes down in my head. I think (although I looked and could not find it) there is passage about 98 percent of American's claiming to believers in some fictional poll, with Binx opining that this does not leave much room for a non-believer. Bottom line -- this theme runs through all -- or most all of -- of WP's wonderful work. All best to all -- Dave Duty Robert_Pauley at oxy.com wrote: > Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The Second > Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. > > Excerpts: > There are only two classes of people, the believers and the > unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more feckless. > > ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are even worse. > > ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds himself born > into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he got here, a > world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets sick, and > dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his mind to say > to himself that his situation is preposterous... > > ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He is as insane > as a French intellectual. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > RobtSchaefer at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... > > Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of > their meaning. > > The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) > > R. Schaefer > Mobile > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Wed Dec 20 19:25:39 2006 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9E75@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, "give me a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy managed to displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it was a good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people. regards, R ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings ________________________________ From: Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" To: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. Excerpts: There are only two classes of people, the believers and the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more feckless. ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are even worse. ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He is as insane as a French intellectual. ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RobtSchaefer at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of their meaning. The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) R. Schaefer Mobile >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ________________________________ Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Dec 21 23:37:12 2006 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:37:12 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... In-Reply-To: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674125D9E75@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RGray at montreat.edu Fri Dec 22 12:52:24 2006 From: RGray at montreat.edu (Gray, Rich) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Believers... Message-ID: I am not persuaded that any non-Arab understands jihadists. Maybe no Arabs understand them either. But Arabs will probably be first to figure them out. Percy's Lancelot Lamar is a terrorist, mentally unbalanced, disappointed in life, and holding to a rationalized ideology that permits him to divide the whole culture into sheep and goats, with himself as god. Like jihadists, his killing has little or no correction on the social misbehavior he deplores. Like jihadists, Lance expected to die in his executing explosion of his home, Belle Isle. Ranting is Lance's lingo: "I cannot tolerate this age. And I will not. I might have tolerated you and your Catholic Church, and even joined it, if you had remained true to yourself. Now you're part of the age. You've the same fleas as the dogs you've lain down with. I would have felt at home at Mont-Saint-Michel [loads of irony here], the Mount of the Archangel [?] with the flaming sword, or with Richard Coeur de Lion at Acre [more irony]. They believed in a god who said he came not to bring peace but the sword. Make love not war? I'll take war rather than what this age calls love." (pp. 157-8) Rich Gray I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S. Lewis _____ From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:37 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... So what do you all think Percy might make of the jihadists? I've been wondering that lately, in light of his thoughts regarding Nazi Germany and the "tenderness leads to terror" concept that he and Flannery O'Connor shared. We can't accuse the jihadists of falling prey to scientific humanism, that's for sure. But what to make of their sort of belief? It seems to me to be as abstracted as any -ism out there, but I'm looking from the outside. Anyone with insight? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _____ From: Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" To: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800 Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, "give me a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy managed to displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it was a good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people. regards, R _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _____ From: Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" To: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. Excerpts: There are only two classes of people, the believers and the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more feckless. ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are even worse. ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He is as insane as a French intellectual. _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RobtSchaefer at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of their meaning. The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) R. Schaefer Mobile >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on Messenger. >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Thu Dec 28 19:30:18 2006 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:30:18 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FE8@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> An interesting observation, Rich Gray, about Lancelot Lamar. He is perhaps, at least prior to ending up in a mental prison, a jihadist of sorts: he does blow up the "infidels" with no regard for his own safety. But there is no expectation of eternal reward when he engages in this act. That is to say, he does not do it for religious reasons but rather for the failure of religion, and in particular, the Catholic religion. The section you quote from the novel is an anguished Percy himself speaking through Lance. For the first time in the 1900-year history of the Church, it had tried officially and universally, through the Second Vatican Council, to make friends with the world. By the time Percy wrote Lancelot (in the 1970s), he could already perceive (the canary in the coal mine) the disastrous results of this duplicity. Clearly, it grieved him, for he had staked everything on the Church's impermeability, its otherworldliness, and he saw that evaporating (at least in the popular church) before his very eyes. If Lancelot's idealogy divides the sheep and the goats, it does nothing more than orthodox Christianity has always done (a theme in the Gospels, The Apocalypse, The City of God, etc.). Lancelot's error is not in his divisive instinct (the sword, which Christ claimed to bring, does indeed divide), but in his vigilante justice. Since he has given up on God, he assumes for himself the role of dispensing justice as he sees fit. At the end of our world, justice (as well as mercy) truly will be served. In the world of Belle Isle, it is even possible that Lancelot became an actual instrument of true justice. But even if that were the case, it would merely be the workings of God's providence and by no means an intrinsic validation of Lancelot's objectively evil act. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat 12/23/2006 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Believers... (Gray, Rich) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:52:24 -0500 From: "Gray, Rich" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am not persuaded that any non-Arab understands jihadists. Maybe no Arabs understand them either. But Arabs will probably be first to figure them out. Percy's Lancelot Lamar is a terrorist, mentally unbalanced, disappointed in life, and holding to a rationalized ideology that permits him to divide the whole culture into sheep and goats, with himself as god. Like jihadists, his killing has little or no correction on the social misbehavior he deplores. Like jihadists, Lance expected to die in his executing explosion of his home, Belle Isle. Ranting is Lance's lingo: "I cannot tolerate this age. And I will not. I might have tolerated you and your Catholic Church, and even joined it, if you had remained true to yourself. Now you're part of the age. You've the same fleas as the dogs you've lain down with. I would have felt at home at Mont-Saint-Michel [loads of irony here], the Mount of the Archangel [?] with the flaming sword, or with Richard Coeur de Lion at Acre [more irony]. They believed in a god who said he came not to bring peace but the sword. Make love not war? I'll take war rather than what this age calls love." (pp. 157-8) Rich Gray I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S. Lewis _____ From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:37 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... So what do you all think Percy might make of the jihadists? I've been wondering that lately, in light of his thoughts regarding Nazi Germany and the "tenderness leads to terror" concept that he and Flannery O'Connor shared. We can't accuse the jihadists of falling prey to scientific humanism, that's for sure. But what to make of their sort of belief? It seems to me to be as abstracted as any -ism out there, but I'm looking from the outside. Anyone with insight? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _____ From: Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" To: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800 Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, "give me a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy managed to displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it was a good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people. regards, R _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _____ From: Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" To: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. Excerpts: There are only two classes of people, the believers and the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more feckless. ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are even worse. ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He is as insane as a French intellectual. _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RobtSchaefer at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." ... Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have been deprived of their meaning. The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) R. Schaefer Mobile >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on Messenger. >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20061222/9c547e66/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 7498 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Fri Dec 29 13:05:36 2006 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:05:36 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FE8@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FE8@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: List, The jihadists and Lancelot have in mind a perfect world and lament the messy real world around them. Both think they can change the world by blowing things up. Maybe both are explained by the will to power. Weak people can feel strong for a moment by destroying, say, a thousand year old Buddha statue or a couple of big buildings. It is not possible for the world to be good enough for those types. All that we imperfect but peaceful people can do is keep destructive perfectionists away from explosives. No easy task. We better keep them away from WMD level devices. Somewhere Percy asks "What happens if the bombs don't drop." I think we now have an answer. Rather than a worldwide nuclear war, we have a constant and very real threat of tactical nukes being used by people with whom it is impossible to negotiate. SPC Robert Eckert ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Larson Date: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:30 pm Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist > An interesting observation, Rich Gray, about Lancelot Lamar. He is > perhaps, at least prior to ending up in a mental prison, a > jihadist of sorts: he does blow up the "infidels" with no regard > for his own safety. But there is no expectation of eternal reward > when he engages in this act. That is to say, he does not do it for > religious reasons but rather for the failure of religion, and in > particular, the Catholic religion. > > The section you quote from the novel is an anguished Percy himself > speaking through Lance. For the first time in the 1900-year > history of the Church, it had tried officially and universally, > through the Second Vatican Council, to make friends with the > world. By the time Percy wrote Lancelot (in the 1970s), he could > already perceive (the canary in the coal mine) the disastrous > results of this duplicity. Clearly, it grieved him, for he had > staked everything on the Church's impermeability, its > otherworldliness, and he saw that evaporating (at least in the > popular church) before his very eyes. > > If Lancelot's idealogy divides the sheep and the goats, it does > nothing more than orthodox Christianity has always done (a theme > in the Gospels, The Apocalypse, The City of God, etc.). Lancelot's > error is not in his divisive instinct (the sword, which Christ > claimed to bring, does indeed divide), but in his vigilante > justice. Since he has given up on God, he assumes for himself the > role of dispensing justice as he sees fit. > > At the end of our world, justice (as well as mercy) truly will be > served. In the world of Belle Isle, it is even possible that > Lancelot became an actual instrument of true justice. But even if > that were the case, it would merely be the workings of God's > providence and by no means an intrinsic validation of Lancelot's > objectively evil act. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l- > request at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Sat 12/23/2006 11:00 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Believers... (Gray, Rich) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:52:24 -0500 > From: "Gray, Rich" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am not persuaded that any non-Arab understands jihadists. Maybe no > Arabs understand them either. But Arabs will probably be first to > figure them out. > > > > Percy's Lancelot Lamar is a terrorist, mentally unbalanced, > disappointedin life, and holding to a rationalized ideology that > permits him to > divide the whole culture into sheep and goats, with himself as god. > Like jihadists, his killing has little or no correction on the social > misbehavior he deplores. Like jihadists, Lance expected to die in his > executing explosion of his home, Belle Isle. Ranting is Lance's > lingo: > > > "I cannot tolerate this age. And I will not. I might have tolerated > you and your Catholic Church, and even joined it, if you had remained > true to yourself. Now you're part of the age. You've the same > fleas as > the dogs you've lain down with. I would have felt at home at > Mont-Saint-Michel [loads of irony here], the Mount of the > Archangel [?] > with the flaming sword, or with Richard Coeur de Lion at Acre [more > irony]. They believed in a god who said he came not to bring > peace but > the sword. Make love not war? I'll take war rather than what > this age > calls love." (pp. 157-8) > > > > Rich Gray > > > > I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not > onlybecause I see it, but because by it I see everything else. > > C.S. Lewis > > _____ > > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:37 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > > > So what do you all think Percy might make of the jihadists? I've been > wondering that lately, in light of his thoughts regarding Nazi Germany > and the "tenderness leads to terror" concept that he and Flannery > O'Connor shared. We can't accuse the jihadists of falling prey to > scientific humanism, that's for sure. But what to make of their > sort of > belief? It seems to me to be as abstracted as any -ism out there, but > I'm looking from the outside. Anyone with insight? > > --Rhonda > > "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing > than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" > > e.e. cummings > > > _____ > > > From: > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > To: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800 > > Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with > a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, > "give me > a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of > pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the > edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy > managed to > displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh > way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it > was a > good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people. > > regards, R > > > > > _____ > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA > MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for? > > --Rhonda > > "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing > than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" > > e.e. cummings > > > _____ > > > From: > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion" > To: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 > > Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The > Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. > > > > Excerpts: > > There are only two classes of people, the believers and > the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more > feckless. > > ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are > even worse. > > ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds > himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he > got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets > sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his > mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... > > ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He > is as insane as a French intellectual. > > > > > _____ > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > RobtSchaefer at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." > ... > > > > Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have > been deprived of their meaning. > > > > The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) > > > > R. Schaefer > > Mobile > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > _____ > > > Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on > Messenger. > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > _____ > > The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the > scoop. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20061222/9c547e66/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 > ************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Sat Dec 30 14:58:02 2006 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 13:58:02 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot, jihadists, and the terror of false peace Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FEA@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> I think neither Lancelot nor the jihadists are interested in changing the world. In blowing things up, the jihadist seeks the respect of Allah and eternal reward for himself; Lancelot seeks revenge--on God, on his wife--and a definitive end to the misery of Belle Isle, himself included. His motivation is despair, not social reform. In asking the question about the bombs not dropping, Percy is not lobbying for peace. Consistently throughout his work, his message is that meaningless peace is worse even than war. In other words, peace, in and of itself, is not the highest good. What is most terrifying in his question about the bombs is the intimation that the world might someday work itself into an amorphous, creedless, humanistic kind of peace that rendered nothing--absolutely nothing--worth fighting for. Regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat 12/30/2006 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 7 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lancelot the Jihadist (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:05:36 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List, The jihadists and Lancelot have in mind a perfect world and lament the messy real world around them. Both think they can change the world by blowing things up. Maybe both are explained by the will to power. Weak people can feel strong for a moment by destroying, say, a thousand year old Buddha statue or a couple of big buildings. It is not possible for the world to be good enough for those types. All that we imperfect but peaceful people can do is keep destructive perfectionists away from explosives. No easy task. We better keep them away from WMD level devices. Somewhere Percy asks "What happens if the bombs don't drop." I think we now have an answer. Rather than a worldwide nuclear war, we have a constant and very real threat of tactical nukes being used by people with whom it is impossible to negotiate. SPC Robert Eckert ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Larson Date: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:30 pm Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist > An interesting observation, Rich Gray, about Lancelot Lamar. He is > perhaps, at least prior to ending up in a mental prison, a > jihadist of sorts: he does blow up the "infidels" with no regard > for his own safety. But there is no expectation of eternal reward > when he engages in this act. That is to say, he does not do it for > religious reasons but rather for the failure of religion, and in > particular, the Catholic religion. > > The section you quote from the novel is an anguished Percy himself > speaking through Lance. For the first time in the 1900-year > history of the Church, it had tried officially and universally, > through the Second Vatican Council, to make friends with the > world. By the time Percy wrote Lancelot (in the 1970s), he could > already perceive (the canary in the coal mine) the disastrous > results of this duplicity. Clearly, it grieved him, for he had > staked everything on the Church's impermeability, its > otherworldliness, and he saw that evaporating (at least in the > popular church) before his very eyes. > > If Lancelot's idealogy divides the sheep and the goats, it does > nothing more than orthodox Christianity has always done (a theme > in the Gospels, The Apocalypse, The City of God, etc.). Lancelot's > error is not in his divisive instinct (the sword, which Christ > claimed to bring, does indeed divide), but in his vigilante > justice. Since he has given up on God, he assumes for himself the > role of dispensing justice as he sees fit. > > At the end of our world, justice (as well as mercy) truly will be > served. In the world of Belle Isle, it is even possible that > Lancelot became an actual instrument of true justice. But even if > that were the case, it would merely be the workings of God's > providence and by no means an intrinsic validation of Lancelot's > objectively evil act. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l- > request at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Sat 12/23/2006 11:00 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Believers... (Gray, Rich) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:52:24 -0500 > From: "Gray, Rich" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am not persuaded that any non-Arab understands jihadists. Maybe no > Arabs understand them either. But Arabs will probably be first to > figure them out. > > > > Percy's Lancelot Lamar is a terrorist, mentally unbalanced, > disappointedin life, and holding to a rationalized ideology that > permits him to > divide the whole culture into sheep and goats, with himself as god. > Like jihadists, his killing has little or no correction on the social > misbehavior he deplores. Like jihadists, Lance expected to die in his > executing explosion of his home, Belle Isle. Ranting is Lance's > lingo: > > > "I cannot tolerate this age. And I will not. I might have tolerated > you and your Catholic Church, and even joined it, if you had remained > true to yourself. Now you're part of the age. You've the same > fleas as > the dogs you've lain down with. I would have felt at home at > Mont-Saint-Michel [loads of irony here], the Mount of the > Archangel [?] > with the flaming sword, or with Richard Coeur de Lion at Acre [more > irony]. They believed in a god who said he came not to bring > peace but > the sword. Make love not war? I'll take war rather than what > this age > calls love." (pp. 157-8) > > > > Rich Gray > > > > I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not > onlybecause I see it, but because by it I see everything else. > > C.S. Lewis > > _____ > > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:37 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > > > So what do you all think Percy might make of the jihadists? I've been > wondering that lately, in light of his thoughts regarding Nazi Germany > and the "tenderness leads to terror" concept that he and Flannery > O'Connor shared. We can't accuse the jihadists of falling prey to > scientific humanism, that's for sure. But what to make of their > sort of > belief? It seems to me to be as abstracted as any -ism out there, but > I'm looking from the outside. Anyone with insight? > > --Rhonda > > "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing > than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" > > e.e. cummings > > > _____ > > > From: > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > To: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800 > > Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with > a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, > "give me > a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of > pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the > edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy > managed to > displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh > way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it > was a > good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people. > > regards, R > > > > > _____ > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA > MCDONNELL Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for? > > --Rhonda > > "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing > than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" > > e.e. cummings > > > _____ > > > From: > Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion" > To: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800 > > Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The > Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you. > > > > Excerpts: > > There are only two classes of people, the believers and > the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more > feckless. > > ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are > even worse. > > ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds > himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he > got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets > sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his > mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous... > > ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He > is as insane as a French intellectual. > > > > > _____ > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > RobtSchaefer at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers... > > "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers." > ... > > > > Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have > been deprived of their meaning. > > > > The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6) > > > > R. Schaefer > > Mobile > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > _____ > > > Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on > Messenger. > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > _____ > > The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the > scoop. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20061222/9c547e66/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 > ************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 7 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 9531 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MorrisJD at aol.com Sat Dec 30 17:43:03 2006 From: MorrisJD at aol.com (MorrisJD at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:43:03 EST Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot, jihadists, and the terror of false peace Message-ID: Benjamin Franklin: There never was a good war or a bad peace. _9_ (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html#245.note10) Letter to Josiah Quincy, Sept. 11, 1773. from _http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html_ (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: