From rhul at gwm.sc.edu Mon Jul 3 11:19:13 2006 From: rhul at gwm.sc.edu (Lawrence Rhu) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:19:13 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] moviegoer/new book Message-ID: Dear All, The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate listserv and a "hard url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As you may recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to this list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for the price). http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html I am currently preparing to teach a seminar this fall on Percy and Cavell about philosophy and literature "against the American grain," so the pleasures of much rereading, background research, etc. are my current chores. I must admit that "rereading" is an accurate word for my recent experience of working my way through Fear and Trembling. The evidence of my previous handwriting in the margins througout my old Anchor pb edition of the Lowrie translation (now on-line, it seems) is undeniable proof, though it certainly felt like a first run this time through. The experience was powerful, that's for sure, but I am a little daunted at the prospect of teaching such a stunningly "tortuous" text. Any suggestions on how to handle SK re Percy without getting irretrievably lost (as opposed to just getting lost, which has always struck me as a philosopically fruitful experience and not necessarily unproductive in the classroom) are most welcome. Regards, Larry Lawrence F. Rhu Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 Tel: 803 777 0144 Fax: 803 777 9064 Email: rhul at sc.edu >>> jp at jlarsp.com 05/16/06 9:39 PM >>> It's interesting that the introspective students didn't connect with the Moviegoer. I was about as introspective as a college student gets, and I connected with it mightily as an undergrad. However, it wasn't as part of a class. It was extra-curricular reading; a recommendation of a friend of a friend. I sometimes wonder if I'd have connected with it as much as I did if I read it for a class. Certainly there were novels I read for class that had an impact on me, and a lot obviously depends on the professor. But there is something about making a discovery while at university, but not from the official classes. John Pearson Chicago, IL 60657 jp at jlarsp.com "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." Edward Abbey "News is what powerful people want to keep hidden. Everything else is just publicity." Bill Moyers "The World is Divided into People Who Think They are Right." Peggy Seeger On May 16, 2006, at 7:09 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > You've identified the thing that makes the novel worth teaching for > me. Some > of the students who were moved by MG really surprised me. It touched > something within them and made them re-examine their lives and their > plans. > On the other hand, some of the students who seemed > introspective--searchers > like Binx--didn't connect with the novel at all. Go figure! > > > > --Rhonda > . . . what people really fear is not that the bomb will fall but that > the > bomb will not fall . . . > --Walker Percy > > > > > >> From: "Beck, David A" >> Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: [percy-l] moviegoer >> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:59:09 -0400 >> >> Robert, >> I hope that the "existential salience of Binx's predicament" comes >> across to my students. If not, the whole thing is a wash. But, at the >> same time, Dostoevsky's underground man shares some of the same signs >> of alienation (I don't consider Dostoevsky outdated). On the other >> hand, you bring up a great point: America is a different world from >> the >> world of TMG. That's why I think students appreciate Dostoevsky (and >> most of mine like C&P) or any "period piece" better than something >> that >> is somewhat contemporary. >> One of my favorite passages in TMG is when Binx has a conversation >> with >> Walter: >> >> "Oh Lord. What's wrong with the goddamn world, Binx?" >> "I am not sure. But something occurred to me this morning. I >> was sitting on the bus--" >> "What do you do with yourself out there in Gentilly?" (39) >> >> To me this passage sums it up: either you get it (the search) or you >> don't. Walter doesn't get it. Many people make statements, platitudes, >> ask questions, but never really want to "search" for an answer. It's >> easy to spit out a question, but quite another to look deeply into our >> own existence, our place in this world. That aspect of the novel is >> probably more real today than it was when Percy wrote the book. We >> have >> more ways to hide from the search. Or perhaps we have more ways to >> disguise what we are doing and call it a search >> (does that make sense?). >> We have more tv channels to distract us, more obligations (taking >> kids here and there--when did sports begin at age five?), more >> technology (he says as he writes this email), etc. For me, the >> challenge is to show students that something "ain't right" with our >> day-to-day existence (or at least it's not right for most of us). So, >> to show students that there is more to life than what is on the >> surface, to encourage them to dig deeper and see the mystery that lies >> beneath our day-to-day existence (to notice the dung >> beetle)--that is what I hope this novel can do to them (as it did for >> me). And, of course, I hope to inspire myself to continue the search. >> Like Binx after reflecting on dung beetle, I get home and "forget all >> about it." >> Whew! Sorry for the long email. But the more we correspond, the more >> I see the importance of this book (and am glad that I decided to try >> it >> again). It is a novel that, according to some of us, changed lives >> (that's why it beat out Catch 22 for the National Book Award--of >> course, there probably is a Heller listserve....) >> Thanks for all of the feedback. >> -David >> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From JHForest at cs.com Tue Jul 4 06:13:07 2006 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 06:13:07 EDT Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" Message-ID: <55b.16a2b6e.31db9933@cs.com> >> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate listserv and a "hard url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As you may recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to this list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for the price). << >> http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that it costs so much. I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who might have wished to buy a copy, myself included. Jim Forest * * * Jim and Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhul at gwm.sc.edu Wed Jul 5 20:30:36 2006 From: rhul at gwm.sc.edu (Lawrence Rhu) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:30:36 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" Message-ID: Jim-- Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to offer. The crisis in humanities publishing continues, and university presses have had to take drastic measures to survive. Of course, these include such prohibitively high prices, more limited printings, fewer paperbacks at least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. Larry Lawrence F. Rhu Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 Tel: 803 777 0144 Fax: 803 777 9064 Email: rhul at sc.edu >>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> >> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate listserv and a "hard url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As you may recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to this list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for the price). << >> http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that it costs so much. I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who might have wished to buy a copy, myself included. Jim Forest * * * Jim and Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * * * From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed Jul 5 23:55:40 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:55:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy Message-ID: <005501c6a0b0$0c857940$0301000a@KAREY> I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. He discusses the evolution of language. Questions: 1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? 2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he had read him? 3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever so briefly, but not Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. 4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or semiotic community on Jaynes? 5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? 6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years after last printing) 7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his book/thoughts? 8) Any other thoughts? I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more scientific approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the more humanistic approaches, with Jaynes in the former camp and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this book is an important one - Karey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Jul 5 23:56:30 2006 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:56:30 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060705235630.10s62jue5cgso0w8@webmail.iu.edu> Larry, Jim et al, I think that you are both correct. University presses aren't producing Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is that the reason the books are so high (besides the legit reasons Larry gave) is that they expect libraries to be their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries and forget the mass market. The upside of all of this is that the amazon market place offers most of these books at a reasonable price. My academic mentor in grad school (the late Tony Sherrill) published a great book that also discussed Percy (Road-Book America). It had a similiar price, but I found it in the used marketplace of amazon for half-price (and it looked like it had never been opened). The problem, of course, is that the author probably won't receive any royalties. But, if you are like me and just want the book to be read, the internet offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people than receive the chump change I get for each book sold. I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern Orthodoxy a decade or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some book sellers are offering each book at $40 or more. If someone goes via the publisher s/he can get each book for under $12 (paperback). Anyway, I am going to ask our university library to purchase the book, if they haven't already ordered it. Looks good and I look forward to reading it. BTW, as a follow up to the last discussion I brought up (on The Moviegoer), I'll dive into that book next week. I plan to give a big intro, using some of the work that Karey and Rhonda provided me. I'll have to admit, however, that I am still a little hesitant. Today we concluded our poetry section. I thought that it would be cool to use some song lyrics. I chose Springsteen's "Thunder Road", Counting Crows' "Round Here" and Jakob Dylan's (the Wallflowers), "One Headlight." 2/3rds of my students weren't familiar enough with Springsteen to be able to name ONE song he wrote/sung. They thought that Counting Crows were from "my" generation (I'm 47!!!). I felt so old that I thought I'd should ask for a handicap parking sticker. I mean, I asked, didn't you guys ever "roll down the windows and let the wind blow back your hair"?? If Springsteen is so dated, how will they get Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun?? Sorry, I won't go on, in fear that no one here will get it either. Feeling old in Indy ("I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"--no, wait, "I shall wear my trousers sagging"). Time to go to bed (no mermaids sing to me). -David Quoting Lawrence Rhu : > Jim-- > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to offer. The > crisis in humanities publishing continues, and university presses > have had to take drastic measures to survive. Of course, these > include such prohibitively high prices, more limited printings, fewer > paperbacks at least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I > am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > Larry > > Lawrence F. Rhu > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > University of South Carolina > Columbia, SC 29208 > Tel: 803 777 0144 > Fax: 803 777 9064 > Email: rhul at sc.edu > >>>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> >>> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have > irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate > listserv and a "hard > url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As you may > recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The > Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to this > list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for the > price). << >>> http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that it costs so much. > I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who might have > wished to buy > a copy, myself included. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim and Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: > forestflier at gmail.com) > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ > Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > * * * > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From karey at kareyperkins.com Thu Jul 6 00:58:28 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 00:58:28 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" In-Reply-To: <20060705235630.10s62jue5cgso0w8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <006201c6a0b8$d273d130$0301000a@KAREY> Percy's writing was topical so it suits the teaching of him to use topical media as a supplement - but these young students aren't going to get it. Sometimes I think college literature is just too advanced for college aged students - teenagers or barely out of teenager-dom. I taught a World Literature course this summer to a gaggle of adorable young sorority girls who dutifully took notes on everything we discussed and went over, but I still realized that most of the references, allusions, and innuendos were lost on them as they would have been on me at their age. The problem is that topical media (music especially) of today is so pre-packaged and marketed it has lost the artistry and soul and doesn't work in a literature class. My 19 year old daughter who is English/art/philosophy oriented listens more to the music of 60s and 70s (Bob Dylan, Cat Stevens) than what passes for music today. The music of today that she considers worth listening to is "indy" music, but she says most people her age don't listen to it. KP -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Beck, David A Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:57 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" Larry, Jim et al, I think that you are both correct. University presses aren't producing Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is that the reason the books are so high (besides the legit reasons Larry gave) is that they expect libraries to be their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries and forget the mass market. The upside of all of this is that the amazon market place offers most of these books at a reasonable price. My academic mentor in grad school (the late Tony Sherrill) published a great book that also discussed Percy (Road-Book America). It had a similiar price, but I found it in the used marketplace of amazon for half-price (and it looked like it had never been opened). The problem, of course, is that the author probably won't receive any royalties. But, if you are like me and just want the book to be read, the internet offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people than receive the chump change I get for each book sold. I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern Orthodoxy a decade or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some book sellers are offering each book at $40 or more. If someone goes via the publisher s/he can get each book for under $12 (paperback). Anyway, I am going to ask our university library to purchase the book, if they haven't already ordered it. Looks good and I look forward to reading it. BTW, as a follow up to the last discussion I brought up (on The Moviegoer), I'll dive into that book next week. I plan to give a big intro, using some of the work that Karey and Rhonda provided me. I'll have to admit, however, that I am still a little hesitant. Today we concluded our poetry section. I thought that it would be cool to use some song lyrics. I chose Springsteen's "Thunder Road", Counting Crows' "Round Here" and Jakob Dylan's (the Wallflowers), "One Headlight." 2/3rds of my students weren't familiar enough with Springsteen to be able to name ONE song he wrote/sung. They thought that Counting Crows were from "my" generation (I'm 47!!!). I felt so old that I thought I'd should ask for a handicap parking sticker. I mean, I asked, didn't you guys ever "roll down the windows and let the wind blow back your hair"?? If Springsteen is so dated, how will they get Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun?? Sorry, I won't go on, in fear that no one here will get it either. Feeling old in Indy ("I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"--no, wait, "I shall wear my trousers sagging"). Time to go to bed (no mermaids sing to me). -David Quoting Lawrence Rhu : > Jim-- > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to offer. The > crisis in humanities publishing continues, and university presses > have had to take drastic measures to survive. Of course, these > include such prohibitively high prices, more limited printings, fewer > paperbacks at least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I > am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > Larry > > Lawrence F. Rhu > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > University of South Carolina > Columbia, SC 29208 > Tel: 803 777 0144 > Fax: 803 777 9064 > Email: rhul at sc.edu > >>>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> >>> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have > irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate > listserv and a "hard > url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As you may > recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The > Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to this > list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for the > price). << >>> http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that it costs so much. > I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who might have > wished to buy > a copy, myself included. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim and Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: > forestflier at gmail.com) > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ > Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > * * * > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From JHForest at cs.com Thu Jul 6 03:44:06 2006 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 03:44:06 EDT Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" Message-ID: <389.70a0e63.31de1946@cs.com> In a message dated 7/6/2006 5:56:52 AM Romance Daylight Time, dabeck at iupui.edu writes: > I think that you are both correct. University presses aren't producing > Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is that the reason the books are > so high (besides the legit reasons Larry gave) is that they expect > libraries to be their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries > and forget the mass market. With libraries in mind, I forwarded the URL http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html to my son, Dan, who teaches film studies at the University of Amsterdam. I think he'll arrange with the university library to get a copy. (Given his interest in the book's focus, he may even throw caution to the winds and get a personal copy.) Jim * * * Jim and Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JHForest at cs.com Thu Jul 6 04:57:03 2006 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 04:57:03 EDT Subject: [percy-l] re publisher info Message-ID: <378.567a990.31de2a5f@cs.com> David Beck wrote: >>The problem, of course, is that the author probably won't receive any royalties. But, if you are like me and just want the book to be read, the internet offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people than receive the chump change I get for each book sold. >> I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern Orthodoxy a decade or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some book sellers are offering each book at $40 or more. If someone goes via the publisher s/he can get each book for under $12 (paperback). Could you post the books' titles and the publisher's web site? Jim * * * Jim and Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Thu Jul 6 08:21:44 2006 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 07:21:44 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 3 Message-ID: <44ad0058.202.8a0da.25658@loyno.edu> I can vouch that Percy did read Julian Jaynes. When JJ's book appeared in the late 1970s, I read it and so did Percy at about the same time. I vaguely recall him chuckling about how extravagant Jaynes' theory was. Nothing beyond this. Percy did scribble in his books as he read them. If this is a BIG project for you (i.e. a dissertation or a book or article), you might check to see if Percy's copy of OCBBM is in his library. The person to contact, I think, would be Mrs. Percy. Karey, since you are reading Jaynes now, what about energizing this list during the summer doldrums by addressing some of the questions you ask? How do you think Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (And isn't it 24 years since Bicameral Mind appeared?) Marcus Smith ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 3 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:44:11 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: "American Dream" (Lawrence Rhu) > 2. consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy (Karey > Perkins) > 3. Re: "American Dream" (Beck, David A) > 4. Re: "American Dream" (Karey Perkins) > 5. Re: "American Dream" (JHForest at cs.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:30:36 -0400 > From: "Lawrence Rhu" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Jim-- > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to > offer. The crisis in humanities publishing continues, and > university presses have had to take drastic measures to > survive. Of course, these include such prohibitively high > prices, more limited printings, fewer paperbacks at least > vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I am > pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > Larry > > Lawrence F. Rhu > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > University of South Carolina > Columbia, SC 29208 > Tel: 803 777 0144 > Fax: 803 777 9064 > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > >>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> > >> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just > out have irresistibly combined with the easy availability > of an appropriate listserv and a "hard url" to make > advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As > you may recall, I have previously mentioned the presence > of Percy and especially The Movigoer in my book as a > matter of possible interest for subscribers to this list. > So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere > apologies for the price). << > >> > http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that > it costs so much. I fear this will put it beyond the > budget of many who might have wished to buy a copy, > myself included. > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim and Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: > jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com > (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: > www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial > Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's > photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * > * * > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:55:40 -0400 > From: "Karey Perkins" > Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <005501c6a0b0$0c857940$0301000a at KAREY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness > and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. He > discusses the evolution of language. > > > > Questions: > > > > 1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? > > 2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he > had read him? > > 3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever > so briefly, but not Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. > > 4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or > semiotic community on Jaynes? > > 5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? > > 6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years > after last printing) > > 7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his > book/thoughts? > > 8) Any other thoughts? > > > > I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more > scientific approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the > more humanistic approaches, with Jaynes in the former camp > and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this book is an > important one - > > > > Karey > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060705/ad2c7823/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:56:30 -0400 > From: "Beck, David A" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > <20060705235630.10s62jue5cgso0w8 at webmail.iu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format="flowed" > > Larry, Jim et al, > I think that you are both correct. University presses > aren't producing Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is > that the reason the books are so high (besides the legit > reasons Larry gave) is that they expect libraries to be > their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries and > forget the mass market. The upside of all of this is that > the amazon market place offers most of these books at a > reasonable price. My academic mentor in grad school (the > late Tony Sherrill) published a great book that also > discussed Percy (Road-Book America). It had a similiar > price, but I found it in the used marketplace of amazon > for half-price (and it looked like it had never been > opened). The problem, of course, is that the author > probably won't receive any royalties. But, if you are > like me and just want the book to be read, the internet > offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission > on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people > than receive the chump change I get for each book sold. > I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern > Orthodoxy a decade or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some > book sellers are offering each book at $40 or more. If > someone goes via the publisher s/he can get each book for > under $12 (paperback). Anyway, I am going to ask our > university library to purchase the book, if they haven't > already ordered it. Looks good and I look forward to > reading it. BTW, as a follow up to the last discussion I > brought up (on The Moviegoer), I'll dive into that book > next week. I plan to give a big intro, using some of the > work that Karey and Rhonda provided me. I'll have to > admit, however, that I am still a little hesitant. Today > we concluded our poetry section. I thought that it would > be cool to use some song lyrics. I chose Springsteen's > "Thunder Road", Counting Crows' "Round Here" and Jakob > Dylan's (the Wallflowers), "One Headlight." 2/3rds of my > students weren't familiar enough with Springsteen to be > able to name ONE song he wrote/sung. They thought that > Counting Crows were from "my" generation (I'm 47!!!). > I felt so old that I thought I'd should ask for a handicap > parking sticker. I mean, I asked, didn't you guys ever > "roll down the windows and let the wind blow back your > hair"?? If Springsteen is so dated, how will they get > Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun?? Sorry, I won't go on, in > fear that no one here will get it either. Feeling old in > Indy ("I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers > rolled"--no, wait, "I shall wear my trousers sagging"). > Time to go to bed (no mermaids sing to me). -David > > > > Quoting Lawrence Rhu : > > > Jim-- > > > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to > > offer. The crisis in humanities publishing continues, > > and university presses have had to take drastic measures > > to survive. Of course, these include such prohibitively > > high prices, more limited printings, fewer paperbacks at > > least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I > am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > > Larry > > > > Lawrence F. Rhu > > Associate Professor of English and Comparative > > Literature University of South Carolina > > Columbia, SC 29208 > > Tel: 803 777 0144 > > Fax: 803 777 9064 > > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > > >>>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> > >>> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book > > just out have irresistibly combined with the easy > > availability of an appropriate listserv and a "hard > > url" to make advertising its recent publication almost > > effortless. As you may recall, I have previously > > mentioned the presence of Percy and especially The > Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for > > subscribers to this list. So here it is, just a click > > away (with my sincere apologies for the price). << > >>> > http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity > > that it costs so much. I fear this will put it beyond > > the budget of many who might have wished to buy > > a copy, myself included. > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > Jim and Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: > > jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com > > (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) > > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: > > www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial > > Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's > > photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 00:58:28 -0400 > From: "Karey Perkins" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <006201c6a0b8$d273d130$0301000a at KAREY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Percy's writing was topical so it suits the teaching of > him to use topical media as a supplement - but these young > students aren't going to get it. Sometimes I think college > literature is just too advanced for college aged students > - teenagers or barely out of teenager-dom. I taught a > World Literature course this summer to a gaggle of > adorable young sorority girls who dutifully took notes on > everything we discussed and went over, but I still > realized that most of the references, allusions, and > innuendos were lost on them as they would have been on me > at their age. > > The problem is that topical media (music especially) of > today is so pre-packaged and marketed it has lost the > artistry and soul and doesn't work in a literature class. > My 19 year old daughter who is English/art/philosophy > oriented listens more to the music of 60s and 70s (Bob > Dylan, Cat Stevens) than what passes for music today. The > music of today that she considers worth listening to is > "indy" music, but she says most people her age don't > listen to it. > > > KP > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Beck, David A Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:57 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" > > Larry, Jim et al, > I think that you are both correct. University presses > aren't producing Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is > that the reason the books are so high (besides the legit > reasons Larry gave) is that they expect libraries to be > their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries and > forget the mass market. The upside of all of this is that > the amazon market place offers most of these books at a > reasonable price. My academic mentor in grad school (the > late Tony Sherrill) published a great book that also > discussed Percy (Road-Book America). It had a similiar > price, but I found it in the used marketplace of amazon > for half-price (and it looked like it had never been > opened). The problem, of course, is that the author > probably won't receive any royalties. But, if you are > like me and just want the book to be read, the internet > offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission > on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people > than receive the chump change I get for each book sold. > I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern > Orthodoxy a decade or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some > book sellers are offering each book at $40 or more. If > someone goes via the publisher s/he can get each book for > under $12 (paperback). Anyway, I am going to ask our > university library to purchase the book, if they haven't > already ordered it. Looks good and I look forward to > reading it. BTW, as a follow up to the last discussion I > brought up (on The Moviegoer), I'll dive into that book > next week. I plan to give a big intro, using some of the > work that Karey and Rhonda provided me. I'll have to > admit, however, that I am still a little hesitant. Today > we concluded our poetry section. I thought that it would > be cool to use some song lyrics. I chose Springsteen's > "Thunder Road", Counting Crows' "Round Here" and Jakob > Dylan's (the Wallflowers), "One Headlight." 2/3rds of my > students weren't familiar enough with Springsteen to be > able to name ONE song he wrote/sung. They thought that > Counting Crows were from "my" generation (I'm 47!!!). > I felt so old that I thought I'd should ask for a handicap > parking sticker. I mean, I asked, didn't you guys ever > "roll down the windows and let the wind blow back your > hair"?? If Springsteen is so dated, how will they get > Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun?? Sorry, I won't go on, in > fear that no one here will get it either. Feeling old in > Indy ("I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers > rolled"--no, wait, "I shall wear my trousers sagging"). > Time to go to bed (no mermaids sing to me). -David > > > > Quoting Lawrence Rhu : > > > Jim-- > > > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to > > offer. The crisis in humanities publishing continues, > > and university presses have had to take drastic measures > > to survive. Of course, these include such prohibitively > > high prices, more limited printings, fewer paperbacks at > > least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I > am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > > Larry > > > > Lawrence F. Rhu > > Associate Professor of English and Comparative > > Literature University of South Carolina > > Columbia, SC 29208 > > Tel: 803 777 0144 > > Fax: 803 777 9064 > > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > > >>>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> > >>> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book > > just out have irresistibly combined with the easy > > availability of an appropriate listserv and a "hard > > url" to make advertising its recent publication almost > effortless. As you may > > recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of > Percy and especially The > > Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for > subscribers to this > > list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere > > apologies for the price). << > >>> > http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity > that it costs so much. > > I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who > > might have wished to buy > > a copy, myself included. > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > Jim and Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: > > jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com > > (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) > > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: > > www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial > > Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's > > photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > * * * > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 03:44:06 EDT > From: JHForest at cs.com > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <389.70a0e63.31de1946 at cs.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > In a message dated 7/6/2006 5:56:52 AM Romance Daylight > Time, dabeck at iupui.edu writes: > > > I think that you are both correct. University presses > > aren't producing Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch > > is that the reason the books are so high (besides the > > legit reasons Larry gave) is that they expect libraries > to be their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries > > and forget the mass market. > > With libraries in mind, I forwarded the URL > > http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > to my son, Dan, who teaches film studies at the University > of Amsterdam. I think he'll arrange with the university > library to get a copy. (Given his interest in the book's > focus, he may even throw caution to the winds and get a > personal copy.) > > Jim > > * * * > Jim and Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: > jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com > (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: > www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial > Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Jim's > photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * > * * -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060706/048830eb/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 3 > ************************************** From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Jul 6 11:36:04 2006 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:36:04 EDT Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy Message-ID: <3c6.473d7fc.31de87e4@aol.com> Now in answer to your specific questions, Yes Walker read Jaynes, I think at my recommendation. His reaction was essentially the same with me and the book group as marcus has indicated. To the best of my knowledge, his reading of Jaynes antedated his deep interest in CSP which of course culminated in the Jefferson Lecture and the published Ketner correspondence. I had forgotten that Jaynes mentions CSP, but it is possible that even a slight mention may have been the thing that drew Walker's interest in that direction; his mind worked that way and he would frequently wander down rabbit tracks for no apparent reason only to be turned on to something of major interest to him. I do the same thing and our shared willingness to take such rabbit safaris was one of the bonds we shared. I think Ken Ketner would have further stories to share on the same point. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Jul 6 11:47:58 2006 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:47:58 EDT Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <572.e0ef50.31de8aae@aol.com> A thought about the topical and the students of today: everything you say about things being lost is quite true but they have something to aid in their studies that we in our college years did not, in the search engines like Google, Yahoo and perhaps most useful of all Wikipedia. It may well be that teachers who are running into the glazed over eye in the classroom at the mention of William Holden or Rory Calhoun should take a few minutes (and perhaps a power-point illustration or two) to sensitize the student to the fun of tracing down these references on the net. Of course you would have to learn power-point... Nikki Barranger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MorrisJD at aol.com Thu Jul 6 11:51:18 2006 From: MorrisJD at aol.com (MorrisJD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:51:18 EDT Subject: [percy-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <52d.2d17966.31de8b76@aol.com> Can't be that hard - Al Gore did! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Jul 6 14:00:39 2006 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:00:39 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] "American Dream" Message-ID: David, Amazing how Prufrock haunts us as we grow older (I turn 40 in August). I remember reading Prufrock in high school and thinking, "Oh, come on . . . it isn't like that, is it?" Twenty some years later, the answer is, "Yeah, it's exactly like that!" Some advice that you haven't requested: Don't expect them to get who Rory Calhoun and Bill Holden are. Instead, show them some pictures of them or some film clips (IMBD should have the info on which films they were in--I know Calhoun's in HOW TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE). Or give them modern day equivalents. Better yet, have them come up with the equivalents by starting with how each actor was perceived in his day. Best of luck! --Rhonda . . . what people really fear is not that the bomb will fall but that the bomb will not fall . . . --Walker Percy >From: "Beck, David A" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "American Dream" >Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:56:30 -0400 > >Larry, Jim et al, >I think that you are both correct. University presses aren't producing >Dan Brown-like bestsellers. My hunch is that the reason the books are >so high (besides the legit reasons Larry gave) is that they expect >libraries to be their main customers. Hence they can gouge libraries >and forget the mass market. >The upside of all of this is that the amazon market place offers most >of these books at a reasonable price. My academic mentor in grad school >(the late Tony Sherrill) published a great book that also discussed >Percy (Road-Book America). It had a similiar price, but I found it in >the used marketplace of amazon for half-price (and it looked like it >had never been opened). >The problem, of course, is that the author probably won't receive any >royalties. But, if you are like me and just want the book to be read, >the internet offers some great deals. I receive such a small commission >on my books that I'd rather give them away to more people than receive >the chump change I get for each book sold. >I wrote two obscure (small press) books on Eastern Orthodoxy a decade >or so ago. I'm amazed to see that some book sellers are offering each >book at $40 or more. If someone goes via the publisher s/he can get >each book for under $12 (paperback). >Anyway, I am going to ask our university library to purchase the book, >if they haven't already ordered it. Looks good and I look forward to >reading it. >BTW, as a follow up to the last discussion I brought up (on The >Moviegoer), I'll dive into that book next week. I plan to give a big >intro, using some of the work that Karey and Rhonda provided me. I'll >have to admit, however, that I am still a little hesitant. Today we >concluded our poetry section. I thought that it would be cool to use >some song lyrics. I chose Springsteen's "Thunder Road", Counting Crows' >"Round Here" and Jakob Dylan's (the Wallflowers), "One Headlight." >2/3rds of my students weren't familiar enough with Springsteen to be >able to name ONE song he wrote/sung. They thought that Counting Crows >were from "my" generation (I'm 47!!!). >I felt so old that I thought I'd should ask for a handicap parking >sticker. I mean, I asked, didn't you guys ever "roll down the windows >and let the wind blow back your hair"?? If Springsteen is so dated, how >will they get Bill Holden and Rory Calhoun?? >Sorry, I won't go on, in fear that no one here will get it either. >Feeling old in Indy ("I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers >rolled"--no, wait, "I shall wear my trousers sagging"). >Time to go to bed (no mermaids sing to me). >-David > > > >Quoting Lawrence Rhu : > > > Jim-- > > > > Pity indeed. I take your point without any comfort to offer. The > > crisis in humanities publishing continues, and university presses > > have had to take drastic measures to survive. Of course, these > > include such prohibitively high prices, more limited printings, fewer > > paperbacks at least vaguely in the purchasable range, etc. Still, I > > am pleased that you express some interest. Thanks. > > > > Larry > > > > Lawrence F. Rhu > > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > > University of South Carolina > > Columbia, SC 29208 > > Tel: 803 777 0144 > > Fax: 803 777 9064 > > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > > >>>> JHForest at cs.com 07/04/06 6:13 AM >>> > >>> The pleasure and satisfaction of having a new book just out have > > irresistibly combined with the easy availability of an appropriate > > listserv and a "hard > > url" to make advertising its recent publication almost effortless. As >you may > > recall, I have previously mentioned the presence of Percy and especially >The > > Movigoer in my book as a matter of possible interest for subscribers to >this > > list. So here it is, just a click away (with my sincere apologies for >the > > price). << > >>> http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/faculty/faculty_pages/rhu/cavell.html > > > > What a fine title and inviting cover! But what a pity that it costs so >much. > > I fear this will put it beyond the budget of many who might have > > wished to buy > > a copy, myself included. > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > Jim and Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > tel: (31)(72) 511 2545 > > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) > > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: > > forestflier at gmail.com) > > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ > > Jim's photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > > * * * > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Jul 6 14:19:47 2006 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:19:47 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy In-Reply-To: <005501c6a0b0$0c857940$0301000a@KAREY> Message-ID: He may have chuckled at Jaynes's theory, but he didn't rule him out entirely. He references him in this passage: A few years ago, [language development] was thought to have begun to happen with Homo erectus perhaps a million years ago. Now, as Julian Jaynes at Princeton, among others, believes, it appears to have occurred in Neanderthal man as recently as the fourth glaciation, which lasted from about 75,000 to 35,000 years ago. During this same period, especially around 40,000 years ago, there occurred an explosive increase in the use and variety of new tools. The human brain increased in weight about fifty-four percent, much of this increase occurring in the cortex, especially in those areas around the Sylvan fissure implicated in the perception and production of speech. These are new structures, not present or else extremely rudimentary in even the highest apes. Moreover, recent experiments have shown that if one destroys this cortical region in other primates, it has no effect on vocalization, which is mediated not by a cortical but rather by the limbic system. (SIASL 118-119) So, while Jaynes's theories about the changes to the human brain between the writing of THE ILLIAD and THE ODDESSY might have been too extravagent (do I remember Jaynes correctly--I read it in the haze of dissertation research), Percy did think Jaynes was onto something. --Rhonda . . . what people really fear is not that the bomb will fall but that the bomb will not fall . . . --Walker Percy >From: "Karey Perkins" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > >Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy >Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:55:40 -0400 > >I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown >of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. He discusses the evolution of >language. > > > >Questions: > > > >1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? > >2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he had read him? > >3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever so briefly, but >not >Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. > >4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or semiotic >community >on Jaynes? > >5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? > >6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years after last >printing) > >7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his book/thoughts? > >8) Any other thoughts? > > > >I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more scientific >approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the more humanistic approaches, >with Jaynes in the former camp and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this >book is an important one - > > > >Karey > > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From karey at kareyperkins.com Sat Jul 8 13:54:36 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:54:36 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c6a2b7$93abe9f0$0201000a@KAREY> Thanks so much to all of you - Marcus and Nikki, my reaction to Jaynes was much the same as Percy's. The reason I asked the question of the list was because I was under the impression that Jaynes was an important thinker in the field, along the lines of Terence Deacon, and so worthy of reading for background info. But as I read him, I thought, "Surely not. Surely I must be mistaken." His thoughts are really "out there" - all the while one is admiring Jaynes for the elegance of his logic and tying together of many loose ends, one thinks that he is really coming from another planet. I haven't read the whole book, but basically, the primary thesis is that early man had a "bicameral mind" which he describes as something like a schizophrenic hearing voices. "...at one time human nature was split in two, an executive part called god, and a follower part called man. Neither part was conscious" (Jaynes 84). Bicameral man had no consciousness whatsoever -- these voices in his head would give him orders and he would follow them mindlessly. As part of his evidence, Jaynes uses the Iliad, the history and story of which existed around 3000 BC, 2000 to 2500 years before "Homer" (or the anonymous poet(s)) wrote about it. All the gods (Athena, Apollo, etc.) that talk to Achilles, Hector, etc. are actually voices in the characters' heads, and the humans are helpless to do anything but obey these voices without thinking because they are not even conscious of them. I just taught the Iliad in my World Lit class, and I must say, that interpretation never occurred to me. I haven't read the whole book yet, perhaps it gets better? Although it is worth reading for entertainment value. Anyway, yes, I can well imagine that Percy (as well as the entire book group) chuckled at it. Rhonda, thanks for the SSL reference - the part you quote was Percy's reference to a later portion of the book, page 129 and perhaps later places I haven't gotten to yet, that discuss the evolution of language, and I imagine that's more accurate and valuable information so Percy may have used part of Jaynes. I however, agree with Nikki, that the important sources in a study of Percy's language theory are Percy's later writings on it and his Ketner correspondence about Peirce and language in general. CSP is mentioned only very briefly on the first page of Jaynes: "Despite centuries of pondering and experiment, of trying to get together two supposed entities called mind and matter in one age, subject and object in another, or soul and body in still others, despite endless discoursing on the streams, state or contents of consciousness, of distinguishing terms like intuitions, sense data, the given, raw feels, the sensa, presentation and representations, the sensations, images, and affections of structuralist introspections, the evidential data of the scientific positivist, phenomenological fields, the apparitions of Hobbes, the phenomena of Kant, the appearances of the idealist, the elements of Mach, the phanera of Peirce, or the category errors of Ryle, in spite of all these, the problem of consciousness is still with us." So yes, maybe that was the little clue that led Percy down the rabbit trail to Peirce? -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:20 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy He may have chuckled at Jaynes's theory, but he didn't rule him out entirely. He references him in this passage: A few years ago, [language development] was thought to have begun to happen with Homo erectus perhaps a million years ago. Now, as Julian Jaynes at Princeton, among others, believes, it appears to have occurred in Neanderthal man as recently as the fourth glaciation, which lasted from about 75,000 to 35,000 years ago. During this same period, especially around 40,000 years ago, there occurred an explosive increase in the use and variety of new tools. The human brain increased in weight about fifty-four percent, much of this increase occurring in the cortex, especially in those areas around the Sylvan fissure implicated in the perception and production of speech. These are new structures, not present or else extremely rudimentary in even the highest apes. Moreover, recent experiments have shown that if one destroys this cortical region in other primates, it has no effect on vocalization, which is mediated not by a cortical but rather by the limbic system. (SIASL 118-119) So, while Jaynes's theories about the changes to the human brain between the writing of THE ILLIAD and THE ODDESSY might have been too extravagent (do I remember Jaynes correctly--I read it in the haze of dissertation research), Percy did think Jaynes was onto something. --Rhonda . . . what people really fear is not that the bomb will fall but that the bomb will not fall . . . --Walker Percy >From: "Karey Perkins" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > >Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy >Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:55:40 -0400 > >I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown >of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. He discusses the evolution of >language. > > > >Questions: > > > >1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? > >2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he had read him? > >3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever so briefly, but >not >Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. > >4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or semiotic >community >on Jaynes? > >5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? > >6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years after last >printing) > >7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his book/thoughts? > >8) Any other thoughts? > > > >I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more scientific >approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the more humanistic approaches, >with Jaynes in the former camp and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this >book is an important one - > > > >Karey > > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From marcus at loyno.edu Sun Jul 9 13:29:26 2006 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:29:26 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 7 Message-ID: <44b13cf6.344.17719c.2666@loyno.edu> Two notes to Karey Perkins' interesting remarks about Percy and Jaynes. 1. "So yes, maybe that was the little clue [in Jaynes] that led Percy down the rabbit trail to Peirce?" I am very confident that Percy was into and onto Peirce quite a long time before he encountered Jaynes. 2. Another fragment floating out of my memory hole is that Percy wasn't for a moment to reduce the OT prophets into "something like a schizophrenic hearing voices." Marcus PS I don't have a copy of OCBCM nearby. If you have a moment Karey, check to see if JJ says anything about Allah dictating the Koran directly to Muhammad. ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 7 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:00:29 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy (Karey > Perkins) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:54:36 -0400 > From: "Karey Perkins" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and > Percy To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <002801c6a2b7$93abe9f0$0201000a at KAREY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks so much to all of you - Marcus and Nikki, my > reaction to Jaynes was much the same as Percy's. The > reason I asked the question of the list was because I was > under the impression that Jaynes was an important thinker > in the field, along the lines of Terence Deacon, and so > worthy of reading for background info. But as I read him > , I thought, "Surely not. Surely I must be mistaken." > His thoughts are really "out there" - all the while one is > admiring Jaynes for the elegance of his logic and tying > together of many loose ends, one thinks that he is really > coming from another planet. I haven't read the whole book > , but basically, the primary thesis is that early man had > a "bicameral mind" which he describes as something like a > schizophrenic hearing voices. "...at one time human > nature was split in two, an executive part called god, and > a follower part called man. Neither part was conscious" > (Jaynes 84). Bicameral man had no consciousness > whatsoever -- these voices in his head would give him > orders and he would follow them mindlessly. As part of > his evidence, Jaynes uses the Iliad, the history and story > of which existed around 3000 BC, 2000 to 2500 years before > "Homer" (or the anonymous poet(s)) wrote about it. All > the gods (Athena, Apollo, etc.) that talk to Achilles, > Hector, etc. are actually voices in the characters' heads, > and the humans are helpless to do anything but obey these > voices without thinking because they are not even > conscious of them. > > I just taught the Iliad in my World Lit class, and I must > say, that interpretation never occurred to me. > > I haven't read the whole book yet, perhaps it gets better? > Although it is worth reading for entertainment value. > > Anyway, yes, I can well imagine that Percy (as well as the > entire book group) chuckled at it. Rhonda, thanks for > the SSL reference - the part you quote was Percy's > reference to a later portion of the book, page 129 and > perhaps later places I haven't gotten to yet, that discuss > the evolution of language, and I imagine that's more > accurate and valuable information so Percy may have used > part of Jaynes. > > I however, agree with Nikki, that the important sources in > a study of Percy's language theory are Percy's later > writings on it and his Ketner correspondence about Peirce > and language in general. CSP is mentioned only very > briefly on the first page of Jaynes: > > "Despite centuries of pondering and experiment, of trying > to get together two supposed entities called mind and > matter in one age, subject and object in another, or soul > and body in still others, despite endless discoursing on > the streams, state or contents of consciousness, of > distinguishing terms like intuitions, sense data, the > given, raw feels, the sensa, presentation and > representations, the sensations, images, and affections of > structuralist introspections, the evidential data of the > scientific positivist, phenomenological fields, the > apparitions of Hobbes, the phenomena of Kant, the > appearances of the idealist, the elements of Mach, the > phanera of Peirce, or the category errors of Ryle, in > spite of all these, the problem of consciousness is still > with us." > > So yes, maybe that was the little clue that led Percy down > the rabbit trail to Peirce? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:20 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and > Percy > > He may have chuckled at Jaynes's theory, but he didn't > rule him out entirely. He references him in this passage: > > A few years ago, [language development] was thought to > have begun to happen with Homo erectus perhaps a million > years ago. Now, as Julian Jaynes at Princeton, among > others, believes, it appears to have occurred in > Neanderthal man as recently as the fourth glaciation, > which lasted from about 75,000 to 35,000 years ago. > During this same period, especially around > > 40,000 years ago, there occurred an explosive increase in > the use and variety of new tools. The human brain > increased in weight about fifty-four percent, much of > this increase occurring in the cortex, especially in those > areas around the Sylvan fissure implicated in the > perception and production of speech. These are new > structures, not present or else extremely rudimentary in > even the highest apes. Moreover, recent experiments have > shown that if one destroys this cortical region in other > primates, it has no > > effect on vocalization, which is mediated not by a > cortical but rather by the limbic system. (SIASL 118-119) > > So, while Jaynes's theories about the changes to the human > brain between the > > writing of THE ILLIAD and THE ODDESSY might have been too > extravagent (do I remember Jaynes correctly--I read it in > the haze of dissertation research), Percy did think > Jaynes was onto something. > > --Rhonda > . . what people really fear is not that the bomb will > fall but that the bomb will not fall . . . > --Walker Percy > > > > > > >From: "Karey Perkins" > >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion" > > >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > > >Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and > Percy >Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:55:40 -0400 > > > >I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness > and the Breakdown >of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. > He discusses the evolution of >language. > > > > > > > >Questions: > > > > > > > >1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? > > > >2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he > had read him? > > >3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever > so briefly, but >not > >Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. > > > >4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or > semiotic >community > >on Jaynes? > > > >5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? > > > >6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years > after last >printing) > > > >7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of > his book/thoughts? > > >8) Any other thoughts? > > > > > > > >I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the > more scientific >approaches to semiotics/consciousness and > the more humanistic approaches, >with Jaynes in the former > camp and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this >book is an > important one - > > > > > > >Karey > > > > > > > > > >-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > __________________________________________________________ > _______ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN > Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 7 > ************************************** From kenneth.ketner at ttu.edu Mon Jul 10 12:25:21 2006 From: kenneth.ketner at ttu.edu (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:25:21 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <44b13cf6.344.17719c.2666@loyno.edu> References: <44b13cf6.344.17719c.2666@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <44B27F71.2050202@ttu.edu> Greetings folks: If memory serves, Jaynes's book came out in 1976. That would be a long time after Percy presented with an interest in Peirce (as the MDs would phrase it). Father Samway in his introduction for THIEF OF PEIRCE makes a strong case that 1947 would have been the start of WP's awareness of CSP. There is clear evidence in WP's own hand that he had thought long and hard about Peirce by the late 1950s (see posthumous publication of WP's typescript entitled "Peirce and Modern Semiotic" in Doubletake Magazine, pp. 52 f., Winter 2002). This WP ms is an important item for Percy scholarship because it had laid around un-noticed until recently, perhaps un-noticed because it appeared to lack an ending for the essay. I found that adding three words produced a very plausible ending, so I persuaded Dr. Coles to publish it in Doubletake. Unfortunately for scholarship, Doubletake fell into hard economic times, and this particular issue may not have been distributed as widely as previous issues. Anyway, I have copies, and now that Doubletake is back in business, having teamied with another mag, perhaps you all can help me be sure that this publication of a lost gem can get noticed and used by the Percy scholars. Maybe some of the folks at the Percy website can get this item from Doubletake up as a readable pdf. Ken Ketner Marcus wrote: >Two notes to Karey Perkins' interesting remarks about Percy >and Jaynes. > >1. "So yes, maybe that was the little clue [in Jaynes] that >led Percy down the rabbit trail to Peirce?" I am very >confident that Percy was into and onto Peirce quite a long >time before he encountered Jaynes. > >2. Another fragment floating out of my memory hole is that >Percy wasn't for a moment to reduce the OT prophets into >"something like a schizophrenic hearing voices." > >Marcus > >PS I don't have a copy of OCBCM nearby. If you have a >moment Karey, check to see if JJ says anything about Allah >dictating the Koran directly to Muhammad. > > > > > > >- > -- Kenneth Laine Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Charles Sanders Peirce Interdisciplinary Professor School of Nursing Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center MAIL ADDRESS: Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: kenneth.ketner at ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From rgeckert at yahoo.com Wed Jul 12 14:37:08 2006 From: rgeckert at yahoo.com (Robert Eckert) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy In-Reply-To: <005501c6a0b0$0c857940$0301000a@KAREY> Message-ID: <20060712183708.72729.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jaynes should have entitled his book "The Origin of Selfconsciousness....". Jaynes does not deal with the origin of language, but its development--specifically with the origin of the concept of "I". -- [eye] [A related interesting book is "The Alphabet Effect".] Consciousness is the naming of all. Selfconsciousness is the naming of "I". Reread the "Primer" section in LC. The joy of naming of the two-year-old child is replaced by the pain of selfconsciousness of seven-year-old. Consciousness is the flashlight that lights the world. Selfconsciousness is the utterly futile attempt by that flashlight to shine on itself. [Adam Smith, of all people, also wrote an interesting essay on language origins.] How'd the dissertation go? Karey Perkins wrote: I am reading Julian Jaynes?s The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, ? 1976, 1990. He discusses the evolution of language. Questions: 1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? 2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he had read him? 3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever so briefly, but not Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. 4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or semiotic community on Jaynes? 5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? 6) How does Jaynes? thoughts stand up today? (16 years after last printing) 7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his book/thoughts? 8) Any other thoughts? I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more scientific approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the more humanistic approaches, with Jaynes in the former camp and Percy in the latter . I?ve heard this book is an important one ? Karey -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Sat Jul 15 17:40:31 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 17:40:31 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: The Denial of Death In-Reply-To: <20060712183708.72729.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c6a857$4c10d330$0201000a@KAREY> Hi Robert, et al- I am off-teaching until September 1 and finally have time to wrap this thing up. and it needs to be done by then! So, that's where I'm completely focused for the next couple of months! Re: Jaynes, the background of language origins, etc., that is probably less important to what I'm doing - except insofar as it relates to what symbol is, and so, what a human being is. But I did want to briefly cover them. Now, a more important question for anyone on the list: Did Percy read Ernest Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning novel, The Denial of Death? It is really fantastic. I think he would have loved it. Becker is cultural anthropologist who covers so much of what Percy was discussing, though language itself is less central. But human "symbol-mongering" ability is important. He uses a lot of Otto Rank, another student of Freud, bypassing Jung for the most part (Percy was a member of the Jungian discussion group) as he considered Jung more esoteric than Rank, and also more prominent and therefore more widely discussed already. He discusses at length Rank's interpretation of Kierkegaard. He mentions Langer too. Anyway, so many of his ideas/themes are repeated in Percy - but Percy was talking about these things way before Becker, I believe. Becker just says them so well. Anyway, his ultimate thesis is (amongst the many points he makes) that the world is terrifying, the inevitability of death haunts us all constantly without our conscious realization, and religion is a psychological necessity to human beings or we become neurotic (or worse). Psychoanalysis fails because it "doesn't allow a person to find out who he is and why he is here on earth, why he has to die, and how he can make his life a triumph" (Becker, 1997, p. 193). Beautifully worded. Whether or not religion has any grounding in actual reality, Becker says, humans must make the Kierkegaardian leap of faith to the transcendent to find real happiness and fulfillment. Karey _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Robert Eckert Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:37 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] consciousness, Julian Jaynes, and Percy Jaynes should have entitled his book "The Origin of Selfconsciousness....". Jaynes does not deal with the origin of language, but its development--specifically with the origin of the concept of "I". -- [eye] [A related interesting book is "The Alphabet Effect".] Consciousness is the naming of all. Selfconsciousness is the naming of "I". Reread the "Primer" section in LC. The joy of naming of the two-year-old child is replaced by the pain of selfconsciousness of seven-year-old. Consciousness is the flashlight that lights the world. Selfconsciousness is the utterly futile attempt by that flashlight to shine on itself. [Adam Smith, of all people, also wrote an interesting essay on language origins.] How'd the dissertation go? Karey Perkins wrote: I am reading Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, C 1976, 1990. He discusses the evolution of language. Questions: 1) Did Percy read Jaynes? If so, his opinion? 2) How might he have responded, in your opinion, if he had read him? 3) Did Jaynes know of Percy? He does cite Peirce, ever so briefly, but not Percy, Langer, or Cassirer. 4) What is the general consensus of the mind-body and/or semiotic community on Jaynes? 5) Has anyone on the list read Jaynes? 6) How does Jaynes' thoughts stand up today? (16 years after last printing) 7) What do you think of Jaynes? What is the value of his book/thoughts? 8) Any other thoughts? I do remember Mike Frentz differentiating between the more scientific approaches to semiotics/consciousness and the more humanistic approaches, with Jaynes in the former camp and Percy in the latter.. I've heard this book is an important one - Karey -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Mon Jul 17 12:52:05 2006 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:52:05 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: The Denial of Death Message-ID: <2d4.b2993a6.31ed1a35@aol.com> Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the books. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Mon Jul 17 13:42:02 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:42:02 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: TheDenial of Death In-Reply-To: <2d4.b2993a6.31ed1a35@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c6a9c8$503ff540$0201000a@KAREY> Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are reached. Though, since they both did read the same people, that probably isn't so unusual. Karey _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: TheDenial of Death Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the books. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhul at gwm.sc.edu Mon Jul 17 14:53:35 2006 From: rhul at gwm.sc.edu (Lawrence Rhu) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:53:35 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: TheDenial of Death Message-ID: I think it (that P may not have read B yet shares such deep resonance with his lines of thought) is very interesting _precisely_ b/c it suggests that the boundaries of a shared culture are not textual in so specific -- or, if you will, positivistic, a way, as the question, "Did P read B?" implies. When Richard Ford says that The Moviegoer made him feel he could write a novel about anywhere, I think he was saying the same kind of thing. Percy expressed dismay at the label "Southern" novelist because he felt it was a way critics could easily pigeonhole him and deny him fuller, fairer reading. Yet he was certainly full and direct in his acknowledgment of Southernness as a central part of his identity, even though public conversation on the topic might set his teeth on edge when it was simply assumed to have specific meanings, etc. Of course, The Moviegoer couldn't be much more deeply embedded in New Orleans than it is, and yet it is inspired and animated by continental art and thinking. So somebody like Ford feels freed by it as a writer and ends up, in The Sportswriter, penning a remarkable novel so different yet so indebted to P's first and subsequent novels as well. Larry Lawrence F. Rhu Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 Tel: 803 777 0144 Fax: 803 777 9064 Email: rhul at sc.edu >>> karey at kareyperkins.com 07/17/06 1:42 PM >>> Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are reached. Though, since they both did read the same people, that probably isn't so unusual. Karey _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: TheDenial of Death Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the books. Nikki Barranger From marcus at loyno.edu Tue Jul 18 16:40:49 2006 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:40:49 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 Message-ID: <44bd4751.28b.e7184.20779@loyno.edu> My memory is shot and getting shot-er, but I knew and read Becker while WP was alive and I am pretty sure I mentioned him to Walker. "Hey, Walker, have you ever looked at The Denial Of Death?" I have no recollectiion of him saying anything in response. Marcus ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:00:26 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: The > Denial of > Death (Nikkibar at aol.com) > 2. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: > TheDenial of > Death (Karey Perkins) > 3. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: > TheDenial of > Death (Lawrence Rhu) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:52:05 EDT > From: Nikkibar at aol.com > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: The > Denial of Death > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <2d4.b2993a6.31ed1a35 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060717/02420832/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:42:02 -0400 > From: "Karey Perkins" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: > TheDenial of Death > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <002401c6a9c8$503ff540$0201000a at KAREY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same > concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are > reached. Though, since they both did read the same people > , that probably isn't so unusual. > > > > Karey > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: TheDenial of Death > > > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060717/fded62e6/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:53:35 -0400 > From: "Lawrence Rhu" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: > TheDenial of Death > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > I think it (that P may not have read B yet shares such > deep resonance with his lines of thought) is very > interesting _precisely_ b/c it suggests that the > boundaries of a shared culture are not textual in so > specific -- or, if you will, positivistic, a way, as the > question, "Did P read B?" implies. When Richard Ford says > that The Moviegoer made him feel he could write a novel > about anywhere, I think he was saying the same kind of > thing. Percy expressed dismay at the label "Southern" > novelist because he felt it was a way critics could easily > pigeonhole him and deny him fuller, fairer reading. Yet > he was certainly full and direct in his acknowledgment of > Southernness as a central part of his identity, even > though public conversation on the topic might set his > teeth on edge when it was simply assumed to have specific > meanings, etc. Of course, The Moviegoer couldn't be much > more deeply embedded in New Orleans than it is, and yet it > is inspired and animated by continental art a > nd thinking. So somebody like Ford feels freed by it as > a writer and ends up, in The Sportswriter, penning a > remarkable novel so different yet so indebted to P's first > and subsequent novels as well. > > Larry > > Lawrence F. Rhu > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > University of South Carolina > Columbia, SC 29208 > Tel: 803 777 0144 > Fax: 803 777 9064 > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > >>> karey at kareyperkins.com 07/17/06 1:42 PM >>> > Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same > concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are > reached. Though, since they both did read the same people > , that probably isn't so unusual. > > > > Karey > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: TheDenial of Death > > > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 > *************************************** From karey at kareyperkins.com Tue Jul 18 16:59:09 2006 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:59:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: <44bd4751.28b.e7184.20779@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c6aaad$03b697c0$0201000a@KAREY> It definitely seems like something he would have at least noticed and been interested in, since it won the 1974 Pulitzer Prize, since Becker was a cultural anthropologist, and since Becker talks about the same guys (Kierkegaard, etc.) Percy was so fond of! At any rate, whether Percy read him or not, he adds much to Percy's ideas. Another book which Percy certainly did not read (as it is (c) 1992), but adds much to (or just says in a different way) Percy's thought, is Thomas Moore's _Care of the Soul: A Guide for Cultivating Depth and Sacredness in Everyday Life_. The name (Thomas Moore) is coincidental, of course, but probably not that he was a Catholic monk, since his ideas and observations are similar to Percy's. Since it was on the NYTimes bestseller list, I'm sure many of you have heard of it or read it? As you can tell, in addition to the writing, I'm enjoying the byways of reading all of these other people like Becker and Moore, whether they actually end up being much of a part of the dissertation or not. Percy had such a wonderful turn of phrase and way of wording things, but I often find that his ideas weren't necessarily conveyed in any kind of organized way (though they were probably that way in his head). But it seems that the Percy oeuvre is organized in a sort of hodge podge of essays (like Message in the Bottle or Signposts or Lost in the Cosmos) that skipped around and repeated themselves and related to future writings of his rather as much as past rather than linearly. It's nice to read these authors who say things - often with the same eloquence - but in a clearer order. But I heartily recommend Becker and Moore for anyone who has the time. Karey -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Marcus Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:41 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 My memory is shot and getting shot-er, but I knew and read Becker while WP was alive and I am pretty sure I mentioned him to Walker. "Hey, Walker, have you ever looked at The Denial Of Death?" I have no recollectiion of him saying anything in response. Marcus ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:00:26 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: The > Denial of > Death (Nikkibar at aol.com) > 2. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: > TheDenial of > Death (Karey Perkins) > 3. Re: Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner: > TheDenial of > Death (Lawrence Rhu) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:52:05 EDT > From: Nikkibar at aol.com > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: The > Denial of Death > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <2d4.b2993a6.31ed1a35 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060717/02420832/att achment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:42:02 -0400 > From: "Karey Perkins" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: > TheDenial of Death > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <002401c6a9c8$503ff540$0201000a at KAREY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same > concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are > reached. Though, since they both did read the same people > , that probably isn't so unusual. > > > > Karey > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: TheDenial of Death > > > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20060717/fded62e6/att achment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:53:35 -0400 > From: "Lawrence Rhu" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: > TheDenial of Death > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > I think it (that P may not have read B yet shares such > deep resonance with his lines of thought) is very > interesting _precisely_ b/c it suggests that the > boundaries of a shared culture are not textual in so > specific -- or, if you will, positivistic, a way, as the > question, "Did P read B?" implies. When Richard Ford says > that The Moviegoer made him feel he could write a novel > about anywhere, I think he was saying the same kind of > thing. Percy expressed dismay at the label "Southern" > novelist because he felt it was a way critics could easily > pigeonhole him and deny him fuller, fairer reading. Yet > he was certainly full and direct in his acknowledgment of > Southernness as a central part of his identity, even > though public conversation on the topic might set his > teeth on edge when it was simply assumed to have specific > meanings, etc. Of course, The Moviegoer couldn't be much > more deeply embedded in New Orleans than it is, and yet it > is inspired and animated by continental art a > nd thinking. So somebody like Ford feels freed by it as > a writer and ends up, in The Sportswriter, penning a > remarkable novel so different yet so indebted to P's first > and subsequent novels as well. > > Larry > > Lawrence F. Rhu > Associate Professor of English and Comparative Literature > University of South Carolina > Columbia, SC 29208 > Tel: 803 777 0144 > Fax: 803 777 9064 > Email: rhul at sc.edu > > >>> karey at kareyperkins.com 07/17/06 1:42 PM >>> > Thanks. I do think it's interesting that some of the same > concepts are discussed and similar conclusions are > reached. Though, since they both did read the same people > , that probably isn't so unusual. > > > > Karey > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Nikkibar at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:52 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Ernest Becker's 1974 Pulitzer Prize > winner: TheDenial of Death > > > > Although this is not authoritative as it is virtually > impossible to prove a negative, i do not ever recall > hearing Walker discuss Becker. One might review his > library donation inventory to see if Becker was among the > books. > > Nikki Barranger > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 39, Issue 12 > *************************************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy