From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jan 2 13:30:24 2007 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:30:24 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FE8@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jan 2 13:44:01 2007 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:44:01 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot, jihadists, and the terror of false peace In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FEA@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Tue Jan 2 22:59:31 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:59:31 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FEC@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing but relativism. Which he isn't. As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). Regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 12:44 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lancelot the Jihadist (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Re: Lancelot, jihadists, and the terror of false peace (RHONDA MCDONNELL) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:30:24 -0700 From: "RHONDA MCDONNELL" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070102/3824dcf5/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:44:01 -0700 From: "RHONDA MCDONNELL" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Lancelot, jihadists, and the terror of false peace To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org, jsbaughm at gwm.sc.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070102/3d83a627/attachment.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4952 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RGray at montreat.edu Wed Jan 3 17:13:43 2007 From: RGray at montreat.edu (Gray, Rich) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:43 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 Message-ID: Michael wrote: Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too? When decadence rubs against me, I often ask myself, "Will God's anger crash down now?" Then I think "I'm among the righteous remnant. The world may say 'I've got no strings to hold me down,' yet I'm listening to Jiminy Cricket. My conscience will be my guide." How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day? Rich Gray -----Original Message----- From: Michael Larson Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 10:59 PM I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing but relativism. Which he isn't. As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). Regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 6490 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Jan 4 12:34:08 2007 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:34:08 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 Message-ID: Rich wrote: >How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe >just for one day? I wonder if that feeling (which I understand and sometimes share) is part and parcel of our current state. If Percy is right and the 20th century was the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring? This conversation has me thinking of LANCELOT within the chronology of Percy's work. If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative character. In the novel that follows, THE SECOND COMING, Will is able to pitch the death urge over a cliff and to build a community rather than destroy one (at least, that's his plan). p.s. Michael, is this more readable?? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _________________________________________________________________ Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Fri Jan 5 00:03:20 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:03:20 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FED@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Rich wrote: "With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too?" There are, perhaps, both bad and good reasons to love justice--if justice is in fact what you mean by judgement. The desire to see others suffer punishment for their wrongs is suspect at best (and sadistic at worst). But true charity--that is, a deep and abiding love of God--would also produce a love of justice, not borne out of a deluded self-righteousness but out of sorrow and palpable suffering for the injuries endured by God himself, most tangibly in the passion of the Christ. This love of justice springs not out of a hatred toward offenders but out of an attachment to the one who is offended. Rich also wrote: "How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day?" And maybe this is where Lance and Percy part ways. They both see what's wrong; they are both against the world. But Lance reacts with despair and assumes justice for himself, while Percy reacts with faith--feeling perhaps simultaneous sorrow--but leaves justice, both for the world and for himself, entirely in God's hands. Ultimately, this is the only sane response among those who perceive--often all too keenly--their own countless failings. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thu 1/4/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (Gray, Rich) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:43 -0500 From: "Gray, Rich" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Michael wrote: Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too? When decadence rubs against me, I often ask myself, "Will God's anger crash down now?" Then I think "I'm among the righteous remnant. The world may say 'I've got no strings to hold me down,' yet I'm listening to Jiminy Cricket. My conscience will be my guide." How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day? Rich Gray -----Original Message----- From: Michael Larson Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 10:59 PM I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing but relativism. Which he isn't. As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). Regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 6490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070103/40954a98/attachment-0001.bin ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5893 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Fri Jan 5 23:01:40 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:01:40 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FEF@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Rhonda wrote: "If Percy is right and the 20th century was the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring?" Another theme of Percy is the end of the world, picked up most directly--though in a comic way--in Love in the Ruins, where he postulates that the end is in the not-too-distant future. If he is right, then we might expect a good deal more death ahead than the 20th century brought us. Nothing that prompted the infamous label, the Culture of Death, has changed much since the last century, yet there is plenty room for an intensification of this propensity. Simultaneously, of course, we might expect much clamouring for peace. A true version of it, however, might be difficult to find. Rhonda wrote: "If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative character." Interesting. He's serving time, it's true. And at the end, there is the glimmer of a notion that he might even be released from the dark place he has been. I'm not sure about a continuum, but I can see pairs: Binx and Tom are amused and amusing. Will and Lance are serious and troubled, disoriented and wounded. Will, I think, is the most admirable of the four, the most equipped in the end to ascend. Regards, Michael Larson PS: And yes, Rhonda, this post was perfectly readable! -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri 1/5/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Lancelot (Michael Larson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:34:08 -0700 From: "RHONDA MCDONNELL" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Rich wrote: >How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe >just for one day? I wonder if that feeling (which I understand and sometimes share) is part and parcel of our current state. If Percy is right and the 20th century was the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring? This conversation has me thinking of LANCELOT within the chronology of Percy's work. If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative character. In the novel that follows, THE SECOND COMING, Will is able to pitch the death urge over a cliff and to build a community rather than destroy one (at least, that's his plan). p.s. Michael, is this more readable?? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _________________________________________________________________ Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:03:20 -0600 From: "Michael Larson" Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot To: Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FED at wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rich wrote: "With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too?" There are, perhaps, both bad and good reasons to love justice--if justice is in fact what you mean by judgement. The desire to see others suffer punishment for their wrongs is suspect at best (and sadistic at worst). But true charity--that is, a deep and abiding love of God--would also produce a love of justice, not borne out of a deluded self-righteousness but out of sorrow and palpable suffering for the injuries endured by God himself, most tangibly in the passion of the Christ. This love of justice springs not out of a hatred toward offenders but out of an attachment to the one who is offended. Rich also wrote: "How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day?" And maybe this is where Lance and Percy part ways. They both see what's wrong; they are both against the world. But Lance reacts with despair and assumes justice for himself, while Percy reacts with faith--feeling perhaps simultaneous sorrow--but leaves justice, both for the world and for himself, entirely in God's hands. Ultimately, this is the only sane response among those who perceive--often all too keenly--their own countless failings. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thu 1/4/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (Gray, Rich) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:43 -0500 From: "Gray, Rich" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Michael wrote: Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too? When decadence rubs against me, I often ask myself, "Will God's anger crash down now?" Then I think "I'm among the righteous remnant. The world may say 'I've got no strings to hold me down,' yet I'm listening to Jiminy Cricket. My conscience will be my guide." How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day? Rich Gray -----Original Message----- From: Michael Larson Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 10:59 PM I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing but relativism. Which he isn't. As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). Regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 8292 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sldye at bluegrass.org Mon Jan 8 06:37:40 2007 From: sldye at bluegrass.org (Dye, Steve) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:37:40 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FEF@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of 'end of the world" scenarios in Percy, has anyone seen "Children of Men'??? ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael Larson Sent: Fri 1/5/2007 11:01 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: RE: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 Rhonda wrote: "If Percy is right and the 20th century was the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring?" Another theme of Percy is the end of the world, picked up most directly--though in a comic way--in Love in the Ruins, where he postulates that the end is in the not-too-distant future. If he is right, then we might expect a good deal more death ahead than the 20th century brought us. Nothing that prompted the infamous label, the Culture of Death, has changed much since the last century, yet there is plenty room for an intensification of this propensity. Simultaneously, of course, we might expect much clamouring for peace. A true version of it, however, might be difficult to find. Rhonda wrote: "If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative character." Interesting. He's serving time, it's true. And at the end, there is the glimmer of a notion that he might even be released from the dark place he has been. I'm not sure about a continuum, but I can see pairs: Binx and Tom are amused and amusing. Will and Lance are serious and troubled, disoriented and wounded. Will, I think, is the most admirable of the four, the most equipped in the end to ascend. Regards, Michael Larson PS: And yes, Rhonda, this post was perfectly readable! -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri 1/5/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Lancelot (Michael Larson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:34:08 -0700 From: "RHONDA MCDONNELL" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Rich wrote: >How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe >just for one day? I wonder if that feeling (which I understand and sometimes share) is part and parcel of our current state. If Percy is right and the 20th century was the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring? This conversation has me thinking of LANCELOT within the chronology of Percy's work. If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative character. In the novel that follows, THE SECOND COMING, Will is able to pitch the death urge over a cliff and to build a community rather than destroy one (at least, that's his plan). p.s. Michael, is this more readable?? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings _________________________________________________________________ Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:03:20 -0600 From: "Michael Larson" Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot To: Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FED at wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rich wrote: "With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too?" There are, perhaps, both bad and good reasons to love justice--if justice is in fact what you mean by judgement. The desire to see others suffer punishment for their wrongs is suspect at best (and sadistic at worst). But true charity--that is, a deep and abiding love of God--would also produce a love of justice, not borne out of a deluded self-righteousness but out of sorrow and palpable suffering for the injuries endured by God himself, most tangibly in the passion of the Christ. This love of justice springs not out of a hatred toward offenders but out of an attachment to the one who is offended. Rich also wrote: "How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day?" And maybe this is where Lance and Percy part ways. They both see what's wrong; they are both against the world. But Lance reacts with despair and assumes justice for himself, while Percy reacts with faith--feeling perhaps simultaneous sorrow--but leaves justice, both for the world and for himself, entirely in God's hands. Ultimately, this is the only sane response among those who perceive--often all too keenly--their own countless failings. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thu 1/4/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (Gray, Rich) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:43 -0500 From: "Gray, Rich" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Michael wrote: Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement crouches in us too? When decadence rubs against me, I often ask myself, "Will God's anger crash down now?" Then I think "I'm among the righteous remnant. The world may say 'I've got no strings to hold me down,' yet I'm listening to Jiminy Cricket. My conscience will be my guide." How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe just for one day? Rich Gray -----Original Message----- From: Michael Larson Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 10:59 PM I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing but relativism. Which he isn't. As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). Regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Beyond the general apocalyptic setting, is anything else particularly Percian? --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings >From: "Dye, Steve" >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:37:40 -0500 > >Speaking of 'end of the world" scenarios in Percy, has anyone seen >"Children of Men'??? > >________________________________ > >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael Larson >Sent: Fri 1/5/2007 11:01 PM >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: RE: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 > > > >Rhonda wrote: "If Percy is right and the 20th century was >the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing >and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring?" > >Another theme of Percy is the end of the world, picked up most >directly--though in a comic way--in Love in the Ruins, where he postulates >that the end is in the not-too-distant future. If he is right, then we >might expect a good deal more death ahead than the 20th century brought us. >Nothing that prompted the infamous label, the Culture of Death, has changed >much since the last century, yet there is plenty room for an >intensification of this propensity. Simultaneously, of course, we might >expect much clamouring for peace. A true version of it, however, might be >difficult to find. > >Rhonda wrote: "If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for >Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy >protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative >character." > >Interesting. He's serving time, it's true. And at the end, there is the >glimmer of a notion that he might even be released from the dark place he >has been. > >I'm not sure about a continuum, but I can see pairs: Binx and Tom are >amused and amusing. Will and Lance are serious and troubled, disoriented >and wounded. Will, I think, is the most admirable of the four, the most >equipped in the end to ascend. > >Regards, >Michael Larson > >PS: And yes, Rhonda, this post was perfectly readable! > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of >percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >Sent: Fri 1/5/2007 11:00 AM >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 > >Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (RHONDA MCDONNELL) > 2. Lancelot (Michael Larson) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:34:08 -0700 >From: "RHONDA MCDONNELL" >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Rich wrote: > >How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe > >just for one day? > >I wonder if that feeling (which I understand and sometimes share) is part >and parcel of our current state. If Percy is right and the 20th century was >the century of death and its inhabitants were, in his words, death-dealing >and death-loving, what does this 21st century bring? > >This conversation has me thinking of LANCELOT within the chronology of >Percy's work. If we agree with Michael, that LANCELOT speaks, in part, for >Walker (I'm willing to entertain the notion), then can we see the Percy >protagonists in a continuum of sorts? If so, Lance is a purgative >character. >In the novel that follows, THE SECOND COMING, Will is able to pitch the >death urge over a cliff and to build a community rather than destroy one >(at >least, that's his plan). > >p.s. Michael, is this more readable?? > >--Rhonda > >"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing >than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" > > e.e. cummings > >_________________________________________________________________ >Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live >Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:03:20 -0600 >From: "Michael Larson" >Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot >To: >Message-ID: > <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FED at wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Rich wrote: "With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried >Catholics or even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of >judgement crouches in us too?" > >There are, perhaps, both bad and good reasons to love justice--if justice >is in fact what you mean by judgement. The desire to see others suffer >punishment for their wrongs is suspect at best (and sadistic at worst). But >true charity--that is, a deep and abiding love of God--would also produce a >love of justice, not borne out of a deluded self-righteousness but out of >sorrow and palpable suffering for the injuries endured by God himself, most >tangibly in the passion of the Christ. This love of justice springs not out >of a hatred toward offenders but out of an attachment to the one who is >offended. > >Rich also wrote: "How can one be against the world without wishing to be a >terrorist--maybe just for one day?" > >And maybe this is where Lance and Percy part ways. They both see what's >wrong; they are both against the world. But Lance reacts with despair and >assumes justice for himself, while Percy reacts with faith--feeling perhaps >simultaneous sorrow--but leaves justice, both for the world and for >himself, entirely in God's hands. Ultimately, this is the only sane >response among those who perceive--often all too keenly--their own >countless failings. > >Best regards, >Michael Larson > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of >percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >Sent: Thu 1/4/2007 11:00 AM >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 > >Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 (Gray, Rich) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:43 -0500 >From: "Gray, Rich" >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 1 >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >Michael wrote: >Lance speaks for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also >speaks for Walker. > >With Lance Lamar in Lancelot speaking for frustrated, worried Catholics or >even a Protestant like me, does that mean a ranting dreamer of judgement >crouches in us too? When decadence rubs against me, I often ask myself, >"Will God's anger crash down now?" > > >Then I think "I'm among the righteous remnant. The world may say 'I've got >no strings to hold me down,' yet I'm listening to Jiminy Cricket. My >conscience will be my guide." > > >How can one be against the world without wishing to be a terrorist--maybe >just for one day? > >Rich Gray > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Larson > Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 10:59 PM > > > > I don't know about anyone else on the list, but Rhonda's posts did >some funky formatting on my computer, such that I could not read them in >email. Once I copied and pasted into a Word document, though, I saw that >she had some great things to say. I think it is correct that Lance speaks >for Will Percy and the loss of southern stoicism. But he also speaks for >Walker. In fact, the changes in the Church are not unlike the changes in >the social order. The changes in both are, in many ways, the kindred >products of modernity. Lance affords Percy an opportunity to speak (yes, in >an amped-up fashion) for both Will and Walker, each bemoaning the loss of >something he perceives to be of the utmost importance. > > It seems to me that Lance, as a fictional character, might have >been the only way that Percy could express such anxiety. He certainly >wasn't about to go public straight-up with a disillusioned characterization >of the Church. So he did it in fiction, and Lancelot isn't the only place, >though it is perhaps the edgiest. As Rhonda says, Percy did not despair >ultimately: he hoped; but that hope was in spite of a world gone mad and a >church gone soft--not BECAUSE of either one of them. > > As far as the jihadists go, yes, they are believers. And yes, >there are Catholic believers and Protestant believers, and many other kinds >of believers, but it is only the trait of belief that binds each to each. >It is not the content of their belief. They do not believe in the same >things. Of course there is overlap, but there are mutually exclusive >differences as well. Unless religious relativism is true, they simply >cannot all be correct. So in being willing at the end of the novel to >listen to Fr. John, Lance teaches us a lesson ONLY if Fr. John's version of >the truth is the Truth. Clearly this is what Percy is intimating. If the >Catholic truth that Fr. John represents is replacable by any (fill in the >blank) serious-minded religious figure, then Percy is handing us nothing >but relativism. Which he isn't. > > As Rhonda says, Percy does indeed speak through Fr. John. That's >the beauty of fiction: authorial voice may enter any number of characters >at strategic moments, even those (the priest and Lance) who represent >ambivalent and dichotomous grapplings with the same reality (the Church). > > > Regarding Rhonda's other post--a "bad peace" might be one that is >based on egalitarianism, indifference, apathy, rather than on truth, true >charity, and an acclimation to the real reality (i.e. God's). > > Regards, > Michael Larson > >-------------- next part -------------- >A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >Name: not available >Type: application/ms-tnef >Size: 6490 bytes >Desc: not available >Url : >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070103/40954a98/attachment-0001.bin > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Percy-L mailing list >Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > >End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 3 >************************************** > >-------------- next part -------------- >A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >Name: not available >Type: application/ms-tnef >Size: 5893 bytes >Desc: not available >Url : >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070104/20b61644/attachment-0001.bin > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Percy-L mailing list >Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > >End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4 >************************************** > > ><< winmail.dat >> >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu Jan 11 16:22:56 2007 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:22:56 EST Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist Message-ID: <532.d02b6fa.32d804b0@aol.com> I would dissent from mr. Larson's view that Walker is speaking through Lancelot, a mistake that even learned critics have been making for years. this awlays puzzled Walker after the publication of the book with the same puzzzlement Socrtes must have felt as they passed him the hemlock. "Don't folks know irony when they see it?" opined WP. I would remeark that the reasson for the mistake is that there is something so appealing in the Lance character that put s the reader on his side despite his nihilism in the latter passages of the book. Walker was by my personal observation of him, much taken with the Vatican II changes at a time when lots of RCs in Covington were not. I mean to check these observations with others and supplement this hereafter. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Fri Jan 12 12:17:43 2007 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:17:43 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist In-Reply-To: <532.d02b6fa.32d804b0@aol.com> Message-ID: Nikki-- Thank you for your insightful comments. You often have a way of bringing clarity to a discussion. --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings >From: Nikkibar at aol.com >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >CC: jamdi at bellsouth.net, marcus at loyno.edu >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist >Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:22:56 EST > >I would dissent from mr. Larson's view that Walker is speaking through >Lancelot, a mistake that even learned critics have been making for years. >this >awlays puzzled Walker after the publication of the book with the same >puzzzlement >Socrtes must have felt as they passed him the hemlock. > >"Don't folks know irony when they see it?" opined WP. I would remeark that >the reasson for the mistake is that there is something so appealing in the >Lance >character that put s the reader on his side despite his nihilism in the >latter passages of the book. > >Walker was by my personal observation of him, much taken with the Vatican >II >changes at a time when lots of RCs in Covington were not. I mean to check >these observations with others and supplement this hereafter. > >Nikki Barranger >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ >From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1 From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Sat Jan 13 00:55:28 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:55:28 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy and Lance and the Church Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA03F6FF2@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Nikki, I appreciate your comments. And I would be very interested in hearing about any first-hand observations that indicate Percy's affection for the changes brought on by Vatican II. I would also like to study the context for the Percy quotation you mention: "Don't folks know irony when they see it?" Is that in a published interview? (I do have Conversations and More Conversations--in case it is in one of those.) As far as my impression that Percy speaks--at least in part--through Lance, I offer the following: >From Jay Tolson's biography (p. 413), "Joyce Carol Oates was right about how close Percy's ideas were to those of Lancelot. And not just his ideas. Lancelot, in all his fury and anger against the modern world, was both temperamentally and intellectually what Percy would have been were it not for one all-important difference: his faith." Regarding his difficulties with faith (and by implication with the Church), especially during the time he was writing Lancelot, I offer the following: >From Jay Tolson's biography (p. 382-383), "Percy's daughters could also see what few others saw: that Percy was going through a difficult period with his faith. This came out in a variety of ways, including an increasing reluctance to receive the host at mass. At lunch on Saturday, Mary Pratt could not help observing that her father had failed to say grace. 'I will say the damn grace if I feel like it,' Percy exploded ... 'You can't turn your back on the church,' she said to Percy. 'It's just too much a part of your life.' Percy sat silent and grim-faced on the couch. He could not reply because he had no response. He felt empty." And this letter by Percy to Shelby Foote (p. 387 of Tolson), "Re Catholicism: I think that culturally speaking I am still a gloomy Georgia Presbyterian. It is impossible to escape one's origins completely. I believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church etc but it is intellectual and I often don't feel a part of the feast like merry Louisianians. Also, the conviction is growing that an end is at hand, whether the end of the U.S. or the West or the world I don't know yet; maybe all three." And this commentary by Tolson (p. 434): "... perhaps because he had come close to losing his faith in the 1970s, Percy's wholehearted return to the fold seemed to include an almost penitential commitment to serving and defending the faith. For Percy, this service would consist largely of vigorous affirmations of the authority, dogma, and magisterium of the church, and particularly of the Holy Father himself, all of which he thought were under attack both from without and within the church. While never one to agonize over such things as the abandonment of the Latin mass, Percy was deeply troubled by any attempts to dilute dogma or to challenge the position and authority of the pope, and during the last decade of his life, he would become a forceful defender of orthodoxy" And this (p. 460): "Percy also knew that there were worlds and worlds within the Catholic church, which was held together, only barely, by its bedrock of doctrine. ('If you talk to three hundred Catholic priests,' he once told his friend Ansley Cope, 'you'll end up with three hundred versions of Catholicism.')" And this (p. 483): "One afternoon, [Percy] talked to [Ann] about the importance of that faith. He told Ann about how he had almost lost his in the 1970s, when he turned to psychology and other supports, even though they had failed him earlier in his life. Percy confessed to her that turning away from the church at that time had been the worst mistake of his life." Worth considering also is Percy's priest in The Thanatos Syndrome, his last book. The following is from Patrick Samway's biography (p. 369): "[Fr. Smith's] preference for the Tridentine liturgy signals that he had not adapted to the changes in liturgical practice since the Second Vatican Council. Yet he finds a niche within himself, rooted in his experiences in Nazi Germany, where he once lived. The larger concerns of Feliciana Parish, especially the dire effects of heavy sodium in the water supply, seem not to invade his inner sanctum the way they do Dr. Tom More's. Walker's last fictional priest acts and speaks in a shockingly new way, which nevertheless is consistent with his prophetic calling within the Church." To sum up, I would not argue that Percy speaks only through Lance (as I agreed in an earlier post, he speaks through Lance's confessor as well), nor would I argue that Percy did not do his best to try to reconcile the church he had converted to with the one he ended up with. It must have been, I am sure, quite a feat of grappling in his considerable mind. What I will stand by, until the evidence points otherwise, is that he speaks at least in part through Lance and that he was anything but enamored with the spirit of novelty in the post-conciliar church. On the contrary, there is some reason to believe that it may nearly have cost him the Faith. Best Regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Fri 1/12/2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 8 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lancelot the Jihadist (Nikkibar at aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:22:56 EST From: Nikkibar at aol.com Subject: Re: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Cc: jamdi at bellsouth.net, marcus at loyno.edu Message-ID: <532.d02b6fa.32d804b0 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would dissent from mr. Larson's view that Walker is speaking through Lancelot, a mistake that even learned critics have been making for years. this awlays puzzled Walker after the publication of the book with the same puzzzlement Socrtes must have felt as they passed him the hemlock. "Don't folks know irony when they see it?" opined WP. I would remeark that the reasson for the mistake is that there is something so appealing in the Lance character that put s the reader on his side despite his nihilism in the latter passages of the book. Walker was by my personal observation of him, much taken with the Vatican II changes at a time when lots of RCs in Covington were not. I mean to check these observations with others and supplement this hereafter. Nikki Barranger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070111/87ae4c4a/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 44, Issue 8 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 6611 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RGray at montreat.edu Sat Jan 13 15:53:59 2007 From: RGray at montreat.edu (Gray, Rich) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:53:59 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy and Lance and the Church Message-ID: Nikki's last post and this one present a fascinating puzzle: How much was Walker Percy invested in Lance Lamar? And to what degree was Percy's disenchantment with Catholicism in the 1970s reflected in Lancelot? This novel stands apart from the other five in being less comic in its satire. I would be interested in reading what lurkers think about Lance. Rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3334 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jjdominy at ufl.edu Sat Jan 13 22:16:59 2007 From: jjdominy at ufl.edu (Jordan Dominy) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 22:16:59 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy and Lance and the Church In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C3696E7-0359-496A-B28D-9EB9E5870477@ufl.edu> Greetings to all, In a line of thinking different from what's been touched on, I read Lance not so much as Percy's expression of a disenchantment with Catholicism as I do a sharp critique of popular culture--particularly the movies, which Percy was always fond of. I think this is because I cannot ignore the fact that Lance's initial frustration is with the all-but-pornographic movie being filmed at his home. William Dowie in his essay "Lancelot and the Search for Sin" argues that the novel is even a parody of Percy's own ire with popular culture, and I'm inclined to agree. Best, Jordan On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Gray, Rich wrote: > Nikki's last post and this one present a fascinating puzzle: How > much was Walker Percy invested in Lance Lamar? And to what degree > was Percy's disenchantment with Catholicism in the 1970s reflected > in Lancelot? This novel stands apart from the other five in being > less comic in its satire. > > I would be interested in reading what lurkers think about Lance. > > Rich > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http:// > lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Jordan J. Dominy, M.A. GTA/Ph.D. Student University of Florida Department of English P. O. Box 117310 Gainesville, FL 32611-7310 jjdominy at ufl.edu http://plaza.ufl.edu/jjdominy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JHForest at cs.com Sun Jan 14 09:03:55 2007 From: JHForest at cs.com (JHForest at cs.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 09:03:55 EST Subject: [percy-l] WP and Vatican II Message-ID: Michael Larson wrote: >> To sum up, I would not argue that Percy speaks only through Lance (as I agreed in an earlier post, he speaks through Lance's confessor as well), nor would I argue that Percy did not do his best to try to reconcile the church he had converted to with the one he ended up with. It must have been, I am sure, quite a feat of grappling in his considerable mind. What I will stand by, until the evidence points otherwise, is that he speaks at least in part through Lance and that he was anything but enamored with the spirit of novelty in the post-conciliar church. On the contrary, there is some reason to believe that it may nearly have cost him the Faith. << I have to re-read Lancelot before I can make a contribution to this discussion, but (along with others) would like to know more about WP's take on Vatican II. I can imagine he would have given it very mixed reviews. He may well have regarded the Council's final text (the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes) as a very important achievement and may also have been glad to see the Liturgy rendered in English, but been appalled with what actually happened to the new Liturgy when it reached the average parish (goodbye Gregorian chant, welcome guitars and pop music). Friendly greetings, Jim Forest * * * Jim and Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Our new phone number: 072-515-4180 (outside Holland: 00-31-72-515-4180) Mobile: 06-510-11-250 (outside Holland: 00-31-6-510-11-250) Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: forestflier at gmail.com) Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ Photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdp at scn.org Sun Jan 14 13:19:56 2007 From: jdp at scn.org (Jonathan Potter) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:19:56 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] WP and Vatican II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12305a9c0701141019o2c831f1bs4c3ab26afa64e44f@mail.gmail.com> I don't have it in front of me right now, but there's an interview in one of the Conversations books where Percy talks explicitly about Vatican II and the changes that occurred as a result of it. He's generally positive about it, but also recognizes that it opened the door to destructive forces within the Church. He speaks admiringly of Ratzinger at one point. Jonathan Potter Spokane WA On 1/14/07, JHForest at cs.com wrote: > > Michael Larson wrote: > > >> To sum up, I would not argue that Percy speaks only through Lance (as I > > agreed in an earlier post, he speaks through Lance's confessor as well), > nor > would I argue that Percy did not do his best to try to reconcile the > church he > had converted to with the one he ended up with. It must have been, I am > sure, > quite a feat of grappling in his considerable mind. What I will stand by, > until > the evidence points otherwise, is that he speaks at least in part through > Lance > and that he was anything but enamored with the spirit of novelty in the > post-conciliar church. On the contrary, there is some reason to believe > that it > may nearly have cost him the Faith. << > > I have to re-read Lancelot before I can make a contribution to this > discussion, > but (along with others) would like to know more about WP's take on Vatican > II. > I can imagine he would have given it very mixed reviews. He may well have > regarded the Council's final text (the Pastoral Constitution on the Church > in > the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes) as a very important achievement and > may also have been glad to see the Liturgy rendered in English, but been > appalled with what actually happened to the new Liturgy when it reached > the > average parish (goodbye Gregorian chant, welcome guitars and pop music). > > Friendly greetings, > > Jim Forest > > * * * > Jim and Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > Our new phone number: 072-515-4180 (outside Holland: 00-31-72-515-4180) > Mobile: 06-510-11-250 (outside Holland: 00-31-6-510-11-250) > Jim's e-mail: jhforest at cs.com (alternative address: jhforest at gmail.com) > Nancy's e-mail: forestflier at cs.com (alternative address: > forestflier at gmail.com) > Jim and Nancy Forest web site: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: www.incommunion.org/forest-flier/ffes/ > Photo web site: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Orthodox Peace Fellowship web site: www.incommunion.org > * * * > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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